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NSDukeFan
11-13-2012, 03:39 PM
Last year at this time, Duke knew who its starting point guard would be for the year, and he had the potential to be one of the best in the country, though, different than the lead up to this season, he would be of the shoot-first variety.

Des Esseintes' post in the Georgia State post-game thread got me thinking about this:

The future is hard to predict. Maybe Quinn will turn out to be the best option this season. Maybe it will be Rasheed or maybe Seth. (I hear people talk about how Seth was a failed experiment at the point last year, but that's not how I remember it. I remember a large share of our best wins coming with him running the point. Then we visited an Ohio State team that seemingly spent the night ripping lampposts out of the ground and beating us with them, throwing boulders at our heads, pushing over buildings on top of us, etc. After that, Seth as point was scrapped. I've always wondered if that was an overreaction on K's part.) It just feels odd to me for people to insist that the team's fate lives and dies by a sophomore who wasn't a top 20 recruit in his class and that, for the team to be successful and owing to his great importance, said sophomore should be held to lesser standard of performance than his peers. That hasn't been true for Duke in the past, and I doubt it will be true this year either.

I agree completely with the bolded part that many have stated as a given that Seth Curry was a failed experiment as a point guard last year. To me, it is something that gets repeated over and over but may not necessarily be true (e.g. Roy needs a fast point guard to succeed; Tyler Thornton got the better of Kendall Marshall in a couple of high school games, so will be better when they match up in college; Tyler Zeller had a couple of injuries his first couple of years, so he must be soft; Duke big men only set screens; Coach K can't recruit point guards, or shooting guards, or big men; etc.)

I have heard coach K mention that Curry would be playing off the ball this year and he never really seemed to be considered to be the primary ball-handler on the team after the eighth game of last year. He was 7-1 in those 8 games, though, and Duke was playing some very good basketball at this time. I am curious as to what others view as the reason that Curry was never seen as the primary ball handler anymore after being touted as one of the best point guards in the country in the off-season? I thought he was doing very well as the point guard until the Ohio State debacle, but didn't feel he deserved an inordinate amount of the blame for that game.

CameronBornAndBred
11-13-2012, 03:46 PM
I would think Seth's health (leg) would factor in if he were to play any at point. Obviously anybody out on the court is going to do a fair amount of running, no matter what position they play.

CDu
11-13-2012, 03:51 PM
Last year at this time, Duke knew who its starting point guard would be for the year, and he had the potential to be one of the best in the country, though, different than the lead up to this season, he would be of the shoot-first variety.

Des Esseintes' post in the Georgia State post-game thread got me thinking about this:


I agree completely with the bolded part that many have stated as a given that Seth Curry was a failed experiment as a point guard last year. To me, it is something that gets repeated over and over but may not necessarily be true (e.g. Roy needs a fast point guard to succeed; Tyler Thornton got the better of Kendall Marshall in a couple of high school games, so will be better when they match up in college; Tyler Zeller had a couple of injuries his first couple of years, so he must be soft; Duke big men only set screens; Coach K can't recruit point guards, or shooting guards, or big men; etc.)

I have heard coach K mention that Curry would be playing off the ball this year and he never really seemed to be considered to be the primary ball-handler on the team after the eighth game of last year. He was 7-1 in those 8 games, though, and Duke was playing some very good basketball at this time. I am curious as to what others view as the reason that Curry was never seen as the primary ball handler anymore after being touted as one of the best point guards in the country in the off-season? I thought he was doing very well as the point guard until the Ohio State debacle, but didn't feel he deserved an inordinate amount of the blame for that game.

Well, Curry started at PG on Friday, so clearly Coach K hasn't completely scrapped the idea. Coach K also said that Cook would be the starting PG, and Cook didn't start Friday. I suspect that part of the rationale for calling Curry's PG time a failed experiment is that Curry isn't a natural PG (he's a shooter/scorer) and isn't really great at setting up others (he averaged only 2.4 assist per game with a 1.2 assist/turnover ratio).

My suspicion is that Coach K felt that Curry was better off playing off the ball so that he could focus on scoring (which is his best skill). And he felt that Cook was ready to take over the PG spot. But apparently at some point along the way Coach K decided that Cook wasn't ready to start. So he moved Curry back to PG and put Thornton in on the wing and as an extra ballhandler if needed.

CameronBornAndBred
11-13-2012, 03:54 PM
Well, Curry started at PG on Friday, so clearly Coach K hasn't completely scrapped the idea.
There goes my leg theory!

NSDukeFan
11-13-2012, 04:08 PM
Well, Curry started at PG on Friday, so clearly Coach K hasn't completely scrapped the idea. Coach K also said that Cook would be the starting PG, and Cook didn't start Friday. I suspect that part of the rationale for calling Curry's PG time a failed experiment is that Curry isn't a natural PG (he's a shooter/scorer) and isn't really great at setting up others (he averaged only 2.4 assist per game with a 1.2 assist/turnover ratio).

My suspicion is that Coach K felt that Curry was better off playing off the ball so that he could focus on scoring (which is his best skill). And he felt that Cook was ready to take over the PG spot. But apparently at some point along the way Coach K decided that Cook wasn't ready to start. So he moved Curry back to PG and put Thornton in on the wing and as an extra ballhandler if needed.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I wonder why Coach K scrapped the idea last year, when a natural PG didn't get major minutes and he has had success with non-natural PGs?

Luther
11-13-2012, 04:56 PM
Personally I would take Seth over Tyler but ultimately I want Quinn to start. Give the kid a chance.

OldPhiKap
11-13-2012, 05:14 PM
Personally I would take Seth over Tyler but ultimately I want Quinn to start. Give the kid a chance.

I think all three will get serious minutes and bring different looks to the floor. Run 'em 'til they drop, then bring in the next guy . . . .

Kyrie'sToe
11-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Personally I would take Seth over Tyler but ultimately I want Quinn to start. Give the kid a chance.

I agree with your statement. It seemed, after every mess up on Fridays game, K took Cook out of the game to teach him a lesson... More than once. I know That K in the past, has a good player-coach understanding, and perhaps that is the way Quinn learns the best... Just seems like a tight leash IMO.

Also I heard J Will talk about putting Suliamon on Goodwin tonight?! So that means if K keeps the projected line up of Seth, Suliamon, Thornton, Kelly, MP2 would mean that Thornton would have to guard Poythress. And I wanna say Tyler will be giving up at least 7" of height... Yikes!

-jk
11-13-2012, 07:27 PM
It seems many folks are conflating defense and offense with the PG position.

One is a ball handler. One is (we always hope, anyway) a stopper.

The two aren't always the same person. Please be clear what role you're discussing.

(I suspect Tyler is seen more in the stopper role, and Seth more in the ball handler. But, IANAC, of course.)

-jk

tele
11-13-2012, 07:53 PM
Curry is still working his way back into playing form after injury, Sulaimon is still just getting acclimated, eventually I think they will be the starting backcourt as they both get to play more. Starting 3 guards with Tyler gives added defense and ball handling support. Also gives more depth to team's front line. With Marshall out if play with two guards only have Josh and Amile in reserve for depth for three frontline players. With three guard lineup have Josh, Amile and Murphy to provide depth in case of foul trouble for two frontline positions. Helps cover for possible foul trouble for Mason and Kelly.

Who will play point with Rasheed and Seth in backcourt togther? The one with the ball.

Newton_14
11-13-2012, 08:07 PM
I have always believed that the change made in the lineup starting in the 9th game last season was a gross overreaction to one bad game. I thought that 8 game stretch with Seth at the point (on offense (for -jk)) :) was a really good stretch of games, and Seth actually played at a really high level in 7 of those 8 games. The Duke team that showed up to play Ohio St was a jet-lagged, weary team from a lot of games in a very short time period with 3 of them on consecutive days in Hawaii. One of the other Maui teams (Michigan I believe) got creamed by UVA under the exact same circumstances. Outside of Mason, no one played well in the OSU game, but the theme afterward was that "Duke got blown out because Curry was terrible at the point". As you state, it has been repeated ad nauseum ever since which is too bad.

As I stated in the other threads, I want Quinn to step up and win the starting PG role (on both offense & defense (for -jk)) and keep it all year. I am fine with Seth being the backup PG, and would love to see Rasheed get to play it in stretches to see how he performs. I like Tyler as the first guard off the bench backing up each of the perimeter players, unless Rasheed is used as 6th man, in which case Tyler would be the second guard off the bench.

I do think Des Essente nailed it in his post, and I don't think Seth playing point hurts his offense...

NSDukeFan
11-14-2012, 12:03 AM
I have always believed that the change made in the lineup starting in the 9th game last season was a gross overreaction to one bad game. I thought that 8 game stretch with Seth at the point (on offense (for -jk)) :) was a really good stretch of games, and Seth actually played at a really high level in 7 of those 8 games. The Duke team that showed up to play Ohio St was a jet-lagged, weary team from a lot of games in a very short time period with 3 of them on consecutive days in Hawaii. One of the other Maui teams (Michigan I believe) got creamed by UVA under the exact same circumstances. Outside of Mason, no one played well in the OSU game, but the theme afterward was that "Duke got blown out because Curry was terrible at the point". As you state, it has been repeated ad nauseum ever since which is too bad.

As I stated in the other threads, I want Quinn to step up and win the starting PG role (on both offense & defense (for -jk)) and keep it all year. I am fine with Seth being the backup PG, and would love to see Rasheed get to play it in stretches to see how he performs. I like Tyler as the first guard off the bench backing up each of the perimeter players, unless Rasheed is used as 6th man, in which case Tyler would be the second guard off the bench.

I do think Des Essente nailed it in his post, and I don't think Seth playing point hurts his offense...

Seth did nothing in that game to suggest it is not a good thing for the ball to be in his hands as often as possible.

sporthenry
11-14-2012, 12:10 AM
Seth did nothing in that game to suggest it is not a good thing for the ball to be in his hands as often as possible.

At the end of the game, I would agree but originally he got going on spot up 3's when he wasn't the primary ball handler. The one 3 he took off the dribble he air-balled. I just think we can save Seth for the end of the games while also allowing Cook to get the offense in transition and give Curry open spot up looks and play to everyone's strength.

CDu
11-14-2012, 10:32 AM
At the end of the game, I would agree but originally he got going on spot up 3's when he wasn't the primary ball handler. The one 3 he took off the dribble he air-balled. I just think we can save Seth for the end of the games while also allowing Cook to get the offense in transition and give Curry open spot up looks and play to everyone's strength.

Yeah, I think Cook and Sulaimon are much better options to create offense for others. Curry needs to be a scorer. Early on, he got most of his offense on catch-and-shoot situations. As the game got to crunch time (and getting others involved mattered less), we ran him off screens to set up isolation opportunities - again, with the idea of him creating his own shot.

Honestly, unless Cook emerges (at times last night he really looked the part, but still a work in progress), I think we'll see shared responsibility in bringing it up court between our 4 guards. And in the half court, we won't rely on a particular player to initiate the offense. If Cook steps up, maybe we see a bit more of him creating (same with Sulaimon). But otherwise it'll be 3s and post entry passes for the most part in the half court, with the occasional drive after a pump fake.

COYS
11-14-2012, 10:39 AM
And in the half court, we won't rely on a particular player to initiate the offense. If Cook steps up, maybe we see a bit more of him creating (same with Sulaimon). But otherwise it'll be 3s and post entry passes for the most part in the half court, with the occasional drive after a pump fake.

This is right on and hits the nail on the head as it is the hallmark of K's offensive philosophy. Outside of a few years of running a variety of prepared screens to get JJ Redick open for three's, Duke's offense has always been about letting multiple players create plays. Even when Duhon and Kyrie were running the show, Luol, Dahntay, Nolan, and Kyle had ample opportunities to create offense for themselves or for others. As much (well-earned) credit as Duke gets for defense, Duke's offense is consistently one of the best in the nation (save for 2007). Even if Quinn emerges as a consistent playmaker, Seth, Rasheed, Ryan, and Mason will still have ample opportunities to create offense.

mattmcbreen
11-14-2012, 04:01 PM
Honestly, unless Cook emerges (at times last night he really looked the part, but still a work in progress), I think we'll see shared responsibility in bringing it up court between our 4 guards. And in the half court, we won't rely on a particular player to initiate the offense. If Cook steps up, maybe we see a bit more of him creating (same with Sulaimon). But otherwise it'll be 3s and post entry passes for the most part in the half court, with the occasional drive after a pump fake.

It all comes down to Cook. If he can prove that he's the pass first point guard we expected when he signed, Coach K should have to worries playing Curry off the ball

timmy c
11-14-2012, 04:31 PM
Seth did nothing in that game to suggest it is not a good thing for the ball to be in his hands as often as possible.

Seth had zero turnovers last night. No matter how the ball crosses the timeline, its got to get to Mason or Seth shortly thereafter.

Greg_Newton
11-14-2012, 04:46 PM
I think Curry is a lot better when he doesn't have to worry about managing the team and getting others shots, personally. If it ain't broke... I don't know if we want to mess with his role too much after last night.

Agree with others that we'll likely see a committee approach if Cook isn't ready, but Sulaimon is really the most natural PG other than him. I actually really hope he doesn't end up taking over the spot, because it would mean we'd be losing him to the NBA sooner rather than later, and I really want to have him for at least 2-3 years.

75Crazie
11-14-2012, 05:50 PM
Whatever position he plays, I think we can agree that Seth will be the focus of a lot of media attention this year. So, given that ... is there something we can do to convince him that the constant mouthpiece-hanging-out-of-mouth thing is just not a good look at all?

MCFinARL
11-15-2012, 09:33 AM
Whatever position he plays, I think we can agree that Seth will be the focus of a lot of media attention this year. So, given that ... is there something we can do to convince him that the constant mouthpiece-hanging-out-of-mouth thing is just not a good look at all?

Amen to this--though so many players do this now, I think it's unlikely we could succeed. Sigh.....

davekay1971
11-15-2012, 09:52 AM
Whatever position he plays, I think we can agree that Seth will be the focus of a lot of media attention this year. So, given that ... is there something we can do to convince him that the constant mouthpiece-hanging-out-of-mouth thing is just not a good look at all?

That move, his grin, and the fact that he likes putting daggers into other teams, will assure him of the mantle of This-Year's-Dukie-That-Everyone-Loves-To-Hate. I would have assumed Mason would get the nod, but Seth's mouthpiece thing tips the scales heavily in his favor. That's probably a good thing for Duke. I can see Seth, at this point in his career, relishing that role.

NSDukeFan
11-15-2012, 03:29 PM
That move, his grin, and the fact that he likes putting daggers into other teams, will assure him of the mantle of This-Year's-Dukie-That-Everyone-Loves-To-Hate. I would have assumed Mason would get the nod, but Seth's mouthpiece thing tips the scales heavily in his favor. That's probably a good thing for Duke. I can see Seth, at this point in his career, relishing that role.

He has a certain amount of swagger to him and a pretty good smirk. Very enjoyable to watch and I hope he is enjoying himself as much as he appeared to be vs. UK.