Harden hard gone

[BD80]

James Harden, one of Coach K's Olympians, was traded to the Rockets after turning down 4 yrs for $52 million. He was demanding the $60 million max.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/10/28/james-harden-traded-to-the-houston-rockets/

Doesn't sound like they got full value, depending on the "draft considerations" received

[FerryFor50]

James Harden, one of Coach K's Olympians, was traded to the Rockets after turning down 4 yrs for $52 million. He was demanding the $60 million max.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/10/28/james-harden-traded-to-the-houston-rockets/

Doesn't sound like they got full value, depending on the "draft considerations" received

Full value is not having to pay James Harden a max contract...

[Cameron]

You can't blame James Harden. He has a mouth to feed and probably just doesn't want to end up in one of those Sally Struthers commercials.

[Edouble]

Full value is not having to pay James Harden a max contract...

Agreed. He's good, but not that good. He comes off the bench.

[delfrio]

Agreed. He's good, but not that good. He comes off the bench.

And he would start for most teams in the league, as we'll see in Houston. He's certainly not the greatest shooting guard out there, but if fantasy hoops has anything to say about player production, he's a top 15 player overall.

[COYS]

And he would start for most teams in the league, as we'll see in Houston. He's certainly not the greatest shooting guard out there, but if fantasy hoops has anything to say about player production, he's a top 15 player overall.

Greatest,no, but he's easily in the top 3-5. Who else has an argument for being better outside of Wade, Kobe and Ginobli? He may never reach the heights that those guys have reached at one time or another (Ginobli's raw numbers have always been artificially deflated due to Pop's roster management), but he's a dang good player. If Lin is able to continue his fairy tale ascent, the Rockets will have one of the best backcourts in the league. It remains to be seen if he's worth max money, but I think it's still a big loss for the Thunder. Kevin Martin four years ago was one of the best in the league, but injuries have really robbed him of some of his best years. Lamb has potential, but for a team trying to win now, I'm surprised they made the deal.

I understand OKC's mindset given the small market and the utterly crippling new luxury tax rules in the CBA. Still, I would rather have lost Ibaka and kept Harden, Westbrook, and KD together. Ibaka is a good player, but his overall defense isn't nearly as good as his block totals would indicate. I'm not sure his extension was the right call given that they now have had their hand forced with Harden. I'd rather be stuck looking for a big guy who can rebound and play some defense than a shooting guard with the versatility and ability of Harden.

[ice-9]

The Thunder also do get those two first round draft picks. I'm guessing what they're thinking is "OK probably not this year but the next two or three years we will make a run" as their two core players -- Durant and Westbrook -- are still very young and have yet to hit their peak. Plus, in those two or three years, Lamb and the two first round draft picks might mature to be major players.

And even if they kept Harden, do you think they have enough to beat the Lakers or the Heat? In three years time though, those teams will be on the older side while Durant and Westbrook will just be hitting the ideal age.

If they really couldn't spend the money on Harden then I think it's a good trade. Thunder gets an acceptable if not equal replacement in Martin but gains on potential in Lamb and the draft picks.

[dukejim1]

I don't know the locker room impact between Harden and Martin but assuming that Durant and Westbrook are accepting to the change then I like this trade for OKC. Harden and Martin are fairly similar in stats with Martin cheaper but older. With Lamb being a 1st rounder this year they are actually getting three 1st round picks. One of the two new picks, Toronto, could be a lottery pick. Sam Presti is a top tier GM with his San Antonio pedigree showing benefits for OKC.

[JNort]

Doesn't sound like they got full value, depending on the "draft considerations" received

I would say the Thunder ripped off the Rockets! Lol I like the Thunder and I really like Harden but the Thunder screwed over the Rockets and here is why I think so:

1. The Thunder like to build through the draft and have been very good at it so getting two 1st round picks from Dallas (Team on the decline)and Toronto (Bottom feeder team) is a gold mine for the Thunder. The trade also gives the Thunder "future draft considerations" as well.

2. OKC also acquired KMart who is quietly one of the best scorers in the NBA and gives good size at the SG spot at 6ft" 7'

3. Jeremy Lamb is an unproven guard that has a chance to sit and learn behind Westbrook and KMart.

So essentially the Thunder gave Harden up and got Kmart, two 1st rd picks, future pending picks and saved money in the process. They then traded away Cole Aldridge, Lazr Haywood, Daquan Cook all of whom were outside the rotation and did not appear to be what the Thunder wanted and in return got a promising young guard who want be asked to do a lot right away.

[Starter]

I would say the Thunder ripped off the Rockets! Lol I like the Thunder and I really like Harden but the Thunder screwed over the Rockets and here is why I think so:

1. The Thunder like to build through the draft and have been very good at it so getting two 1st round picks from Dallas (Team on the decline)and Toronto (Bottom feeder team) is a gold mine for the Thunder. The trade also gives the Thunder "future draft considerations" as well.

2. OKC also acquired KMart who is quietly one of the best scorers in the NBA and gives good size at the SG spot at 6ft" 7'

3. Jeremy Lamb is an unproven guard that has a chance to sit and learn behind Westbrook and KMart.

So essentially the Thunder gave Harden up and got Kmart, two 1st rd picks, future pending picks and saved money in the process. They then traded away Cole Aldridge, Lazr Haywood, Daquan Cook all of whom were outside the rotation and did not appear to be what the Thunder wanted and in return got a promising young guard who want be asked to do a lot right away.

I am in 100 percent agreement with all of these points. I like Lamb, Martin has value and they got two potentially very good first-rounders for a guy who wouldn't trim $4.5 million off his deal to help his team avoid punishing luxury tax implications. I'm not one to sit here and tell anyone to pass on four million bucks, except that he'd have been wildly wealthy either way, was extremely close with Durant and Westbrook, and would have almost certainly had a better shot to win championships.

Houston gets what it wants too: a potential All-Star to build around. I don't view Harden as a potential franchise player type, but few would dispute he's a very good player, and none of us really know what he'll do if he's the focal point of a team. Here's hoping it's better than his wretched performance in the NBA Finals.

[sporthenry]

I think both sides got what they wanted and nobody necessarily fleeced the other. I think this hurts Harden the most in the long term. As far as Houston, they got a superstar they wanted although it remains to be seen if he'll be a star starting and Houston now has all that money committed to Lin, Harden and Asik which doesn't exactly sound like a big 3.

And at the end, this was all over $6 million over 4 years or $1.5 million/year? I think these players have huge egos that they need these max contracts. Durant did no favors and has the super max contract while Westbrook actually took the reduction and took a normal max contract but they should have taken a page out of the real big 3 in Miami who actually took pay deductions.

As far as Harden is concerned, I say this costs him more in the long run because if he takes 52 over 4 years, then at the end of 4 years, he can go sign his super max somewhere else. Now, I think he'll be exposed much like a Joe Johnson or Kevin Martin as a SG who just scores and can't play defense and will struggle to carry an offense. I'm also not sure how his endorsements will work, apparently Houston is a "big" market NBA city (at least I read that somewhere or at least bigger than OKC) but not sure he gets that many more endorsements in Houston and it might cost him some endorsements that the 3 of them did a la the ESPN commercials they were in. I'm still amazed these NBA players get caught up in a million or two here or there when they can make that and more in endorsements as Durant made 14 million in endorsements last year. So he can't cut 3-4 million in salary and make that up in endorsements? And again, perhaps Harden thinks he'll be a stud, but if he gets exposed sooner rather than later, then contracts/endorsements will dry up quickly. But Houston is betting on 3 relatively unproven stars and if just one doesn't pan out, the other 2 probably look worse with more pressure on them.

As far as the Thunder, as someone mentioned, they sort of delay their window for a few years which might be better. They'll still be competitive but now they can wait out Wade and Bryant to go over the hill. Additionally they can try to upgrade Perkins in the middle as they allow Jones and Lamb to develop under very cap friendly contracts. K-Mart will take over 6th man duties this year and if Lamb becomes the competent SG some think, he could actually be better for the Thunder if he can play both ways as they have enough scoring. And the draft picks are icing on the cake. The Bobcats second round pick next year will be like a late first rounder (and they can draft an international player), and they get a lottery pick from the Raptors which is top 3, top 2 (for 2 years), and top 1 (for 2 years) protected. The Dallas pick is top 20 protected for 5 years so Dallas will probably have a pick in the 20's so that will be a late first round pick.

[NSDukeFan]

I agree with most, if not all, of the points in the three previous posts and in no way think OKC got fleeced. However, I do wonder if it is worth $4M for them to downgrade a bit during one of Durant and Westbrook's prime years vying for a title. This is based on the "go for a title as hard as you can if you are a conference finals contender because you never know what will happen in a 7 game series and you never know when you will again have the opportunity" theory.
I do certainly agree that Harden is likely passing up his best title chances for a few million dollars, whereas at the end of his career he will likely gladly make the opposite trade.

[hq2]

I agree with most, if not all, of the points in the three previous posts and in no way think OKC got fleeced. However, I do wonder if it is worth $4M for them to downgrade a bit during one of Durant and Westbrook's prime years vying for a title. This is based on the "go for a title as hard as you can if you are a conference finals contender because you never know what will happen in a 7 game series and you never know when you will again have the opportunity" theory.
I do certainly agree that Harden is likely passing up his best title chances for a few million dollars, whereas at the end of his career he will likely gladly make the opposite trade.

Well, we do know what happened in a 7 game series. Against the Heat Harden was not effective.
I don't think he was worth what he asked. Losing him won't hurt OKC as much as anyone thinks,
but they won't be better without him.

[MChambers]

If. Houston gets the beard, too, I think the trade is even.

[NSDukeFan]

Well, we do know what happened in a 7 game series. Against the Heat Harden was not effective.
I don't think he was worth what he asked. Losing him won't hurt OKC as much as anyone thinks,
but they won't be better without him.

There was a guy named LeBron James who did not play his best in a Finals or two after the age of 23. I am not saying Harden is anywhere near the player LeBron is, but there is some precedence for players improving after their first Finals appearance.

[Acymetric]

You can find a pretty good explanation for the decision here (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8563645/oklahoma-city-thunder-stay-true-their-philosophy-trading-james-harden). Harden wouldn't make a sacrifice that the other top players made so they said "see ya" and that was that. Harden is good, but to be honest I don't think he's max contract good.

[NSDukeFan]

You can find a pretty good explanation for the decision here (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8563645/oklahoma-city-thunder-stay-true-their-philosophy-trading-james-harden). Harden wouldn't make a sacrifice that the other top players made so they said "see ya" and that was that. Harden is good, but to be honest I don't think he's max contract good.

I would assume that is also how the Thunder management felt.

[superdave]

Kevin Martin's contract expires after this season. He's 29 years old, missed half of last season after a big 2010-11 campaign, and is presumably hungry. I'm assuming the Thunder can sign Martin for less than the $12 million he is making this year. If they get 15 a game from off the bench from Martin, along with Lamb and Maynor, they will have a deep guard rotation.

That all makes sense to me. And I agree with the previous posts. But something is missing.

I cant help but think that Harden was the guy you turned the keys over to when Westbrook went AWOL, or could play both guard positions and initiate the offense. He was a swiss army knife for the Thunder.

This leads me to believe that Sam Presti has a second move planned. Guys like him think two steps ahead. Presti cleared some excess cap (Aldrich, Cook, Heyward), has two extra draft picks, could also flip Lamb (and/or Maynor).

I have a few questions that some of the smarter NBA fans here might know about -

How good are the two draft picks likely to be?
If the Thunder could add one player to the rotation, what would be ideal?
Will they keep Perk, buy out his deal or flip him? I'm assuming keep, now that Harden is gone.
What can you get for Lamb, Maynor and two first rounders?

The prescription for the Thunder is win now, while also preserving your long term cap space and flexibility. That means adding, in my opinion, an additional front court scorer. I'd be interested in hearing what others think and if Presti likely has a follow-on move here before the trade deadline.

[Dukeface88]

You went with "hard gone" instead of "hard out"?

DBR, I are disappoint. I are very disappoint indeed.

[Des Esseintes]

You can find a pretty good explanation for the decision here (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8563645/oklahoma-city-thunder-stay-true-their-philosophy-trading-james-harden). Harden wouldn't make a sacrifice that the other top players made so they said "see ya" and that was that. Harden is good, but to be honest I don't think he's max contract good.

That article is pretty misleading. Durant and Westbrook are getting max money. Ibaka took less--and that's great--but I don't think Harden should be pilloried for wanting fair market value. (Does anyone on this board think Eric Gordon is better than Harden? Harden might be the best pick-and-roll ball handler in the league right now, full stop. And I think it's pretty straightforward that Gordon is likely to earn his max contract.) The Thunder can talk all they want about their Way, but the simple fact is that the two sides were $6M apart. Clay Bennett wouldn't write a check to maximize the team's title window.

I wish people wouldn't talk about the Heat series as if it means something. A lot can change from series to series and year to year. A guy is up, a guy is down. Ask, you know, the Heat and Lebron James about that one. A bad series in the clutch is not destiny. What might have been destiny, however, was all three Thunder stars in the lineup in crunch time. Does anyone remember all the talk post-Spurs, pre-Heat about the inexorable offensive force that was that lineup? That wasn't stupid talk. People were underrating Miami, but the elite ceiling of OKC with its young stars was no joke. Barring catastrophic injury, they would have gotten their title at some point, I think. That certainty is toast now, and it is hard to see obvious ways a team can get better giving up that much dynamism.

Finally, I would say that while the Thunder made out well in their trade as far as assets go, when you're in title contention the priorities change. It's so difficult to win a title. It's so difficult to even be a legit contender for a title. Making a deal--even one that is "fair"--that drops you unnecessarily further from contention strikes me as a loser almost by default.

[Troublemaker]

The Rockets will offer Harden 5 years 80 million so he actually will make $25+ million more by rejecting OKC"s offer.

From the Thunder's perspective, the luxury tax for teams over the salary cap will kick in next season, and under that system, the lowest rate for repeat offenders is 2.5X. So, for example, $10 million over the course of a contract could really cost them $25+ million.

I guess what I'm saying is, the two sides were essentially farther apart than the $6 to $8 million figures being reported.

If I were OKC, I would've kept Harden to make a title run this season and sign-and-traded him afterwards. Due to Harden's playmaking skills, the trade they made for him really isn't close to fair value. And missing that element from their team probably knocks OKC down from the Miami/Lakers perch to the level below with the Celtics. Still a very, very good team, of course, but I would've liked to have seen how it played out for them this season with Harden.

[moonpie23]

i'm not into predicting much, but on the outset, i don't think OKC gets by the lakers......we shall see if the chemistry doesn't happen, but the lakers have all the pieces....

[Billy Dat]

As far as the Thunder, as someone mentioned, they sort of delay their window for a few years which might be better.


I agree with most, if not all, of the points in the three previous posts and in no way think OKC got fleeced. However, I do wonder if it is worth $4M for them to downgrade a bit during one of Durant and Westbrook's prime years vying for a title. This is based on the "go for a title as hard as you can if you are a conference finals contender because you never know what will happen in a 7 game series and you never know when you will again have the opportunity" theory.
I do certainly agree that Harden is likely passing up his best title chances for a few million dollars, whereas at the end of his career he will likely gladly make the opposite trade.


Finally, I would say that while the Thunder made out well in their trade as far as assets go, when you're in title contention the priorities change. It's so difficult to win a title. It's so difficult to even be a legit contender for a title. Making a deal--even one that is "fair"--that drops you unnecessarily further from contention strikes me as a loser almost by default.

How you react to the deal depends on how you feel about the concepts quoted above. I am pretty much in the NS and Des camp - when you are close to that brass ring, you gotta go all in. As such, I feel like OKC should have kept the team together and risked losing Harden to free agency. I am guessing that the OKC brain trust ultimately felt that the team wasn't going to get it done as constructed. I am not sure why, but that's how they felt.


The Rockets will offer Harden 5 years 80 million so he actually will make $25+ million more by rejecting OKC"s offer.

Money will typically carry the day. Harden wanted more, and Bennett wanted no part of that lux tax down the road, title or not.


If. Houston gets the beard, too, I think the trade is even.

This, perhaps, is the most salient point of all. If Harden doesn't bring the beard to Texas, I think both states need to strap up on either side of the red river and have this thing out.

[JNort]

i'm not into predicting much, but on the outset, i don't think OKC gets by the lakers......we shall see if the chemistry doesn't happen, but the lakers have all the pieces....

I really don't think anyone will tbh.... The heat maaayyyy have a shot at it but I doubt even that.

[sporthenry]

The Rockets will offer Harden 5 years 80 million so he actually will make $25+ million more by rejecting OKC"s offer.

From the Thunder's perspective, the luxury tax for teams over the salary cap will kick in next season, and under that system, the lowest rate for repeat offenders is 2.5X. So, for example, $10 million over the course of a contract could really cost them $25+ million.

I guess what I'm saying is, the two sides were essentially farther apart than the $6 to $8 million figures being reported.

If I were OKC, I would've kept Harden to make a title run this season and sign-and-traded him afterwards. Due to Harden's playmaking skills, the trade they made for him really isn't close to fair value. And missing that element from their team probably knocks OKC down from the Miami/Lakers perch to the level below with the Celtics. Still a very, very good team, of course, but I would've liked to have seen how it played out for them this season with Harden.

Well OKC was only allowed to offer 4 years $60 million since they already gave Westbrook 5 years and already have a designated players for its max contract. So unless Harden was lying about signing in OKC for that, then it was about $6 million. And some of that 25+ is exaggerated because of an additional year. In reality, it was about the $6 million or more so he wanted the "max contract" designation because these guys have egos and while Houston made a lot of sense, it probably wasn't the only place so if another team already used that designation, he'd be looking at a very similar contract to what OKC was offering.

[Billy Dat]

To further pimp Zack Lowe, this piece does a nice job breaking down the deal, its alternatives and its future implications:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8566897/a-look-oklahoma-city-trade-james-harden-houston-rockets

[JasonEvans]

I just want everyone to be clear about something -- Harden did not force this trade and he did not ask for it. OKC asked him to take less than a max deal. He knew he was worth a max deal (clearly he was, as Houston is going to give him one) and he said no to OKC's offer. So, OKC dealt him.

I was not privy to the negotiations to know if OKC told Harden "take this offer or we will trade you" or not, but even if they did this was not some primadona star asking for his own stage, this was a team (that is making money hand over fist**) asking a player to take less than he was worth. When the player refused, the team dealt him.

-Jason "this could be a bad deal for everyone... Harden in OKC may be better than Harden can be anywhere else... but the pieces OKC got back may not be as good as Harden was. If so, then isn't everyone a loser in this?" Evans

**- I do not begrudge the owners the right to make a profit on their large investment in the team, but wanted to point out that the notion that OKC is some poor, small-market team struggling to make ends meet is a total falsehood.

[Kdogg]

I just want everyone to be clear about something -- Harden did not force this trade and he did not ask for it. OKC asked him to take less than a max deal. He knew he was worth a max deal (clearly he was, as Houston is going to give him one) and he said no to OKC's offer. So, OKC dealt him.

I was not privy to the negotiations to know if OKC told Harden "take this offer or we will trade you" or not, but even if they did this was not some primadona star asking for his own stage, this was a team (that is making money hand over fist**) asking a player to take less than he was worth. When the player refused, the team dealt him.

-Jason "this could be a bad deal for everyone... Harden in OKC may be better than Harden can be anywhere else... but the pieces OKC got back may not be as good as Harden was. If so, then isn't everyone a loser in this?" Evans

**- I do not begrudge the owners the right to make a profit on their large investment in the team, but wanted to point out that the notion that OKC is some poor, small-market team struggling to make ends meet is a total falsehood.

Here's an article with a little more details about how things went down: http://newsok.com/as-devastated-as-james-harden-might-be-the-former-thunder-star-is-getting-the-money-he-wanted/article/3723393

I hate to see the team broken up but think this will work out in the long term (two - five years). In the DBR mock draft I predicted that Serge would resign and Harden would leave (although I thought it would be next year) so I can't say I'm shocked. I guess the Thunder didn't want this cloud hanging over the entire season. I think that's why they did it now rather then wait and make a run with the old gang.

I hope Hardin does well in Houston. He's a good guy but he will have to get comfortable being the "man." It's a role he didn't truly embrace at ASU and never had to at OKC.

[Acymetric]

I just want everyone to be clear about something -- Harden did not force this trade and he did not ask for it. OKC asked him to take less than a max deal. He knew he was worth a max deal (clearly he was, as Houston is going to give him one) and he said no to OKC's offer. So, OKC dealt him.

I was not privy to the negotiations to know if OKC told Harden "take this offer or we will trade you" or not, but even if they did this was not some primadona star asking for his own stage, this was a team (that is making money hand over fist**) asking a player to take less than he was worth. When the player refused, the team dealt him.

-Jason "this could be a bad deal for everyone... Harden in OKC may be better than Harden can be anywhere else... but the pieces OKC got back may not be as good as Harden was. If so, then isn't everyone a loser in this?" Evans

**- I do not begrudge the owners the right to make a profit on their large investment in the team, but wanted to point out that the notion that OKC is some poor, small-market team struggling to make ends meet is a total falsehood.

One quibble. He was worth a max deal to the Rockets, but that isn't the same as being universally worth a max deal (that is to say, the Thunder didn't think he was worth a max deal to them and I thiink they're correct). I don't think anyone is making Harden out as some hyper-selfish player, but obviously he chose money over being on a contender. I also don't understand how people can look at the trade and say that OKC came out the loser. A team with a great draft history picking up 2 first rounders (from Toronto and Dallas) seems like a pretty solid move, and they still have a very good team in the meantime. Just need to replace Perkins with anyone else as soon as possible.

I don't think its necessary to make either side a villain here, they both did what they thought was best for them. But OKC will continue to be a title contender (not favorite) and the Rockets almost certainly will not. But I don't think OKC would have been the favorite with Harden anyway. Unless lingering injury issues affect the Lakers I think they will be the team to beat league wide (though not head and shoulders above the Heat).

[moonpie23]

I really don't think anyone will tbh.... The heat maaayyyy have a shot at it but I doubt even that.

uhh....excuse me? did shane battier retire?

[Des Esseintes]

One quibble. He was worth a max deal to the Rockets, but that isn't the same as being universally worth a max deal (that is to say, the Thunder didn't think he was worth a max deal to them and I thiink they're correct). I don't think anyone is making Harden out as some hyper-selfish player, but obviously he chose money over being on a contender. I also don't understand how people can look at the trade and say that OKC came out the loser. A team with a great draft history picking up 2 first rounders (from Toronto and Dallas) seems like a pretty solid move, and they still have a very good team in the meantime. Just need to replace Perkins with anyone else as soon as possible.

I don't think its necessary to make either side a villain here, they both did what they thought was best for them. But OKC will continue to be a title contender (not favorite) and the Rockets almost certainly will not. But I don't think OKC would have been the favorite with Harden anyway. Unless lingering injury issues affect the Lakers I think they will be the team to beat league wide (though not head and shoulders above the Heat).

Well, the Zach Lowe article--which I agree with Billy is a fantastic breakdown of the situation for all parties--indicated that multiple teams had conversations with OKC about Harden. I think you can logically assume all of those teams intended to offer him the max, were the deal to get swung. OKC didn't give him a max contract, but there are two factors here: 1) they have 2 players already making max, plus Ibaka's below-market-but-still-very-large-deal, and 2) they don't want to pay the (admittedly massive) tax. Take away either of those factors, and I guarantee you James Harden is already locked up in Oklahoma City long-term. Had that dude hit the restricted free agency market next summer, I double-guarantee you he would have gotten snapped up with multiple max offers, just like Eric Gordon got. And as I mentioned above, does *anyone* think Eric Gordon is better than James Harden?

As for Houston not contending, let's see what the future brings. The Lakers are aging and probably only constituted as presently configured for this season and next. Further, aside from OKC there aren't a lot of obvious potential monster teams in the Western Conference. So you've got Houston, with Harden, an above-average point in Jeremy Lin, a rim protector in Asik, what appears to be a roster of young useful talent, a resourceful GM, and enough salary space for another max contract next season or the season after. That has the makings of an excellent team. Good enough to someday win an NBA title? Who knows? Not me and not you. But they will have options, and I think a top-four seed within 2-4 years in the Western Conference would hardly be surprising.

[NSDukeFan]

If you like Bill Simmons; here's his take on OKC trading Harden. Summary: They squandered their title chances. (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8573213/the-harden-disaster)

[Acymetric]

Well, the Zach Lowe article--which I agree with Billy is a fantastic breakdown of the situation for all parties--indicated that multiple teams had conversations with OKC about Harden. I think you can logically assume all of those teams intended to offer him the max, were the deal to get swung. OKC didn't give him a max contract, but there are two factors here: 1) they have 2 players already making max, plus Ibaka's below-market-but-still-very-large-deal, and 2) they don't want to pay the (admittedly massive) tax. Take away either of those factors, and I guarantee you James Harden is already locked up in Oklahoma City long-term. Had that dude hit the restricted free agency market next summer, I double-guarantee you he would have gotten snapped up with multiple max offers, just like Eric Gordon got. And as I mentioned above, does *anyone* think Eric Gordon is better than James Harden?

As for Houston not contending, let's see what the future brings. The Lakers are aging and probably only constituted as presently configured for this season and next. Further, aside from OKC there aren't a lot of obvious potential monster teams in the Western Conference. So you've got Houston, with Harden, an above-average point in Jeremy Lin, a rim protector in Asik, what appears to be a roster of young useful talent, a resourceful GM, and enough salary space for another max contract next season or the season after. That has the makings of an excellent team. Good enough to someday win an NBA title? Who knows? Not me and not you. But they will have options, and I think a top-four seed within 2-4 years in the Western Conference would hardly be surprising.

Take away those factors and yes, Harden would likely have been worth a max deal to the Thunder...but I wasn't playing what ifs I was looking at what the actual situation is, and in that real situation Harden isn't worth a max deal to the Thunder.

[Des Esseintes]

Take away those factors and yes, Harden would likely have been worth a max deal to the Thunder...but I wasn't playing what ifs I was looking at what the actual situation is, and in that real situation Harden isn't worth a max deal to the Thunder.

By that metric, almost no player in the league is, as you put it, "universally" regarded as worth a max deal. Andrew Bynum, for example, will not get offered a max deal by the Los Angeles Lakers if he makes it to free agency next summer. Nor will Chris Paul get offered a max deal by the Brooklyn Nets. Blake Griffin won't get too many calls from the Heat, certainly not at $16M per season. For my part, I think that's perhaps not the world's greatest standard by which to evaluate contracts. There are extremely good reasons entirely outside of James Harden's abilities as a basketball player for why the Thunder didn't max him. To be sure, they chose Russell Westbrook and, to an extent, Serge Ibaka over him, but that is a pretty unique situation. A large fraction of the league would love to pay Harden the four-year or five-year max, and that is probably more meaningful. Whether he ends up earning it is a different question we must wait to answer.

[Acymetric]

By that metric, almost no player in the league is, as you put it, "universally" regarded as worth a max deal. Andrew Bynum, for example, will not get offered a max deal by the Los Angeles Lakers if he makes it to free agency next summer. Nor will Chris Paul get offered a max deal by the Brooklyn Nets. Blake Griffin won't get too many calls from the Heat, certainly not at $16M per season. For my part, I think that's perhaps not the world's greatest standard by which to evaluate contracts. There are extremely good reasons entirely outside of James Harden's abilities as a basketball player for why the Thunder didn't max him. To be sure, they chose Russell Westbrook and, to an extent, Serge Ibaka over him, but that is a pretty unique situation. A large fraction of the league would love to pay Harden the four-year or five-year max, and that is probably more meaningful. Whether he ends up earning it is a different question we must wait to answer.

You seem dead set on arguing with me even though everything you're saying fits right in with what I've been saying. I never said Harden wasn't worth a max deal to anybody, or even most teams. Here's what I said:


He was worth a max deal to the Rockets, but that isn't the same as being universally worth a max deal (that is to say, the Thunder didn't think he was worth a max deal to them and I thiink they're correct).

My comment about not being worth a max deal was specific to the Thunder. I was rebutting what I have heard from several places the past couple days, which is that the Thunder tried to underpay Harden...which I don't see as the case. They offered him what he was worth to them (what he is worth to other teams is irrelevant to that discussion and I never commented on that in my post) and he wasn't interested so they traded him to get something instead of nothing. How exactly is what you're saying different than what I'm saying?

[Des Esseintes]

You seem dead set on arguing with me even though everything you're saying fits right in with what I've been saying. I never said Harden wasn't worth a max deal to anybody, or even most teams. Here's what I said:



My comment about not being worth a max deal was specific to the Thunder. I was rebutting what I have heard from several places the past couple days, which is that the Thunder tried to underpay Harden...which I don't see as the case. They offered him what he was worth to them (what he is worth to other teams is irrelevant to that discussion and I never commented on that in my post) and he wasn't interested so they traded him to get something instead of nothing. How exactly is what you're saying different than what I'm saying?

Maybe we're talking past each other, or maybe it is a semantic debate. Or both. In any event, apologies to everyone else for slicing a small point even thinner. In one of your earlier posts, you said that Harden wasn't worth the max to the Thunder, and you agreed. I took that to mean you didn't think Harden was worth a max contract in the "objective" sense, i.e. that his production should not merit maximum compensation. I guess you were arguing that you agreed with the Thunder that he wasn't worth it to them? I'm not even sure you're right on that much narrower point. I mean, I think an A6 is worth its purchase price, but I don't have the bank for an Audi right now. Or, I could very much like a pair of sweaters, each of which cost $100. If I only have $100, I have to forgo one of those. It doesn't mean I don't like that forgone sweater or think it's worth less than $100. I just have limited funds, and that necessitates hard choices.

[theAlaskanBear]

In his first game as a Rocket, Harden had 37pts, 12ast and 6reb in a HOU win of DET. He killed it. What a great start playing for a team he has barely practiced with!

[roywhite]

yeah, here's the boxscore (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400277726)

Looks like Jeremy Lin had a good game, too; maybe they'll play well together?

[wk2109]

yeah, here's the boxscore (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400277726)

Looks like Jeremy Lin had a good game, too; maybe they'll play well together?

Also happened to be Kyle's first NBA game -- he shot 4-5 (2-2 3pt) and scored 10 points.

[Dukehky]

Slightly different note, I know a bunch of people on the board are Greivis Vasquez fans. He was straight ballin tonight for the Hornets. Austin Rivers is gonna have to earn that starting PG spot, because that old terp sure as hell isn't gonna give it to him.

[jacone21]

Tonight he dropped 45 on Atlanta. Well, alright then.

[FerryFor50]

I didn't think Harden had it in him, but it looks like the early returns for Houston are that he was a bargain!

[JasonEvans]

I was at the Atlanta-Houston game last night. About a third of the way through the 4th quarter it was a tie game and I said to my father, "If we can keep Harden under 35, we will win this game." Harden had 30 at the time.

A few minutes later, I tweeted the following (https://twitter.com/TVFilmTalk/status/264540451917406209)--


The score right now is #Hawks 82 - James Harden 135. I may be exaggerating but not by much.

-Jason "he was ridiculous -- unstoppable" Evans

[Des Esseintes]

I was at the Atlanta-Houston game last night. About a third of the way through the 4th quarter it was a tie game and I said to my father, "If we can keep Harden under 35, we will win this game." Harden had 30 at the time.

A few minutes later, I tweeted the following (https://twitter.com/TVFilmTalk/status/264540451917406209)--



-Jason "he was ridiculous -- unstoppable" Evans

This (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/6/22/3110414/okc-thunder-coach-scott-brooks-contract) just keeps looking better and better.

[sporthenry]

Figured I would add to this thread after a month or so to gain more clarity. Of course it is too early to completely tell but it doesn't look like OKC really did all that badly in this deal. The draft picks will ultimately decide this but Toronto's draft pick is looking mighty nice if they somehow don't win the lottery. A top 5 pick along with Dallas' first and their own. They might be able to move up and get Noel, Austin, or Zeller or they could go after a Poythress or a Goodwin as a SG.

But as far as Houston is concerned, Harden is definitely valuable to them but it doesn't seem like they made out like bandits in the trade as many were expecting right after this. Harden is still top 5 in PPG but his PER is currently 30th while Ibaka's PER is 37th. So OKC saved some money and Ibaka has really come on strong. Lamb and Tornoto's first could result in their future starting 5 being Westbrook, Lamb, Durant, Ibaka, Noel/Austin which might be better than what they had and if they can get a dominant big man, they'd be very imposing.

Houston has likewise come back down to earth and is 9-10 on the year and their starting 5 of Lin, Harden, Parsons, Peterson, Asik has actually performed quite well.

[FerryFor50]

Figured I would add to this thread after a month or so to gain more clarity. Of course it is too early to completely tell but it doesn't look like OKC really did all that badly in this deal. The draft picks will ultimately decide this but Toronto's draft pick is looking mighty nice if they somehow don't win the lottery. A top 5 pick along with Dallas' first and their own. They might be able to move up and get Noel, Austin, or Zeller or they could go after a Poythress or a Goodwin as a SG.

But as far as Houston is concerned, Harden is definitely valuable to them but it doesn't seem like they made out like bandits in the trade as many were expecting right after this. Harden is still top 5 in PPG but his PER is currently 30th while Ibaka's PER is 37th. So OKC saved some money and Ibaka has really come on strong. Lamb and Tornoto's first could result in their future starting 5 being Westbrook, Lamb, Durant, Ibaka, Noel/Austin which might be better than what they had and if they can get a dominant big man, they'd be very imposing.

Houston has likewise come back down to earth and is 9-10 on the year and their starting 5 of Lin, Harden, Parsons, Peterson, Asik has actually performed quite well.

Defenses are starting to key in on Harden, especially since no one else outside of Chandler Parsons scares teams.

That, and he's showing some of the same issues he had in OCK - inability to carry a team consistently. He's much better in a complementary role, where he can maximize his passing skills.

[sporthenry]

Defenses are starting to key in on Harden, especially since no one else outside of Chandler Parsons scares teams.

That, and he's showing some of the same issues he had in OCK - inability to carry a team consistently. He's much better in a complementary role, where he can maximize his passing skills.

I agree which is what I thought would ultimately happen. Harden will become Joe Johnson. A guy who puts up gaudy numbers but is a much better complementary piece. He'll lose many chances at a title and he might also lose some money if he doesn't command a max contract after this one. Of course, Houston will have to add another piece or two but they look to be stuck in mediocrity yet again.

Also meant to add that Lamb has been doing pretty well in the D-league. For those not aware, the D-league is like watching a summer league game where defense seems optional and almost discouraged but usually NBA talent puts up some gaudy numbers down there and Lamb hasn't disappointed averaging 22.5 which is tied for 7th. His shooting hasn't been great (39% from the field and 26.9% from 3) but others averaging around those numbers include Terrence Jones, Shelvin Mack, and John Jenkins. So I would expect Lamb to be a solid NBA player, the bigger question will be whether he'll be a starter or a 6th-7th man.

[Starter]

Yeah, I think people overreacted to that first massive game by Harden after the trade. I, for one, think Harden (and Ibaka!) was underutilized criminally the past couple seasons. And Presti, who I think is normally very sharp, really screwed up extending Kendrick Perkins, who's slow and not that good. He could have kept the whole band together. That said, I thought his return on the Harden trade was very good. It's still a good team. Brooks has finally gotten around to playing Ibaka over 30 minutes a game. If Harden absolutely had to be moved, and it seemed he did, both sides got what they wanted here.