MBB: Duke v. W Washington game thread

[mgtr]

So we know anything more about this team? I know they have two 6' 9" guys, and they were last year's Div II champ. It also looks like they have a new (interim) coach. I'm excited, even if it is just an exhibition game. Any word on Seth?

[Kedsy]

So we know anything more about this team? I know they have two 6' 9" guys, and they were last year's Div II champ. It also looks like they have a new (interim) coach. I'm excited, even if it is just an exhibition game. Any word on Seth?

They're ranked 8th in the pre-season Division II poll. That's good, but not great for a defending champion. I suspect they either lost a fair bit from their championship team or that championship was a bit of a fluke. Not sure which.

[Bluedog]

So we know anything more about this team? I know they have two 6' 9" guys, and they were last year's Div II champ. It also looks like they have a new (interim) coach. I'm excited, even if it is just an exhibition game. Any word on Seth?

Seth won't be playing in the game against Western Washington. Also, note that Western Washington just lost to Washington by 10, after trailing by only 2 with less than five minutes to go. So, they've shown they can compete with high level teams (not sure how good Washington is supposed to be this year though).


“If there’s a time to be conservative it’s early in the season,” Wojciechowski said. “Seth, if we really pushed it, could play tomorrow, but you have to weigh if that’s the best thing from the big picture perspective. In our judgement it’s not the right thing for the team.”

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/duke-basketball-begins-season-without-curry

[Dukehky]

Can somebody let me know how that "Together" thing goes. Can't say I'm a huge fan of it mostly because I'm just not sure how you can coordinate it, but if it catches on, I'm in.

Mason can go ahead and get 25/15/5 tomorrow, I'd be good with that.

Go Duke, beat FSU/WWU

[ChillinDuke]

So we know anything more about this team? I know they have two 6' 9" guys, and they were last year's Div II champ. It also looks like they have a new (interim) coach. I'm excited, even if it is just an exhibition game. Any word on Seth?

The Vikings return 3 starters and 8 letter winners from their championship team last year which went 31-5. They did, however, lose 2 of their top 3 scorers from last season.

The sole remainder of that trio is 6'1" senior SG John Allen, who seems to be the name that keeps coming up. He's a DII Bulletin Super 16 selection (sounds like the equivalent of the DI All-American teams) and the GNAC preseason player of the year. (that's the Great Northwest Athletic Conference, for those of you keeping score in the Conference Realignment Vigil).

6'9" senior big man Chris Mitchell matched Allen as they co-led the team against UW with 17 pts. 6'9" Juco transfer Austin Bragg chipped in 8 and 10. 6'4" senior co-captain Paul Jones had 15 pts. Worth keeping these guys in mind.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/wwu/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2012-13/misc_non_event/dIImbbpre.pdf

Interim Head Coach Tony Dominguez was a 17-year assistant at Western Washington and grew up more of a UNC fan (for whatever that's worth in Everett, WA).


Seth won't be playing in the game against Western Washington. Also, note that Western Washington just lost to Washington by 10, after trailing by only 2 with less than five minutes to go. So, they've shown they can compete with high level teams (not sure how good Washington is supposed to be this year though).

Yes, and WWU was even tied with UW at 69 with just under 7 to play. Believe they jumped out to a quick 8-0 lead as well.

- Chillin

[dragoneye776]

Anyone know where I can watch this online or on TV? I know it's on GoDuke inside access, but I don't have that.

[mgtr]

The sole remainder of that trio is 6'1" senior SG John Allen, who seems to be the name that keeps coming up. He's a DII Bulletin Super 16 selection (sounds like the equivalent of the DI All-American teams) and the GNAC preseason player of the year. (that's the Great Northwest Athletic Conference, for those of you keeping score in the Conference Realignment Vigil).



- Chillin

John Allen??? What a remarkable guy. He was also a leading model railroader in the 1950s and 1960s. He lived in Monterey, CA. Seriously, he was an important and well-known figure in model railroading and advertising.

[riverside6]

Starters posted for Duke, not much of a surprise. Cook, Sulaimon, Murphy, Kelly, and Mason Plumlee

[BD80]

John Allen??? What a remarkable guy. He was also a leading model railroader in the 1950s and 1960s. He lived in Monterey, CA. Seriously, he was an important and well-known figure in model railroading and advertising.

Sheldon? Dr. Sheldon Cooper? Is that you?

[riverside6]

Link to follow live tempo-based stats for Duke/Western Washington...

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=14693

[cptnflash]

Rasheed Sulaimon - holy cow! He's the best player on the floor so far!

[Edouble]

...is tearing it up. Which really means close to nothing, especially since I can't see what's happening. I wonder if the W.Wash defense is leaving him alone to concentrate on our bigs, in effect picking their poison, and Rasheed is delivering?

Glad to see that we are outrebounding them while still shooting 52%.

[chaosmage]

But yeah, just turned the website on, and Rasheed is kicking tail and taking names.

[billy]

Is it just me or do our shorts have built in butt bone protectors?

[dukelifer]

Both Freshman are playing well. Amile is showing emotion and has nice touch around the rim. He is going to be a very good player. Murphy is nervous and has not looked sharp. His free throws were an adventure. Hoping he can collect himself. He needs to build confidence early. Duke needs him to play well.

[trinity79]

We're letting them come back at the end of the half. ;)

[trinity79]

:confused:

[mgtr]

Blue Devil Network on GoDuke.com. Costs $10 for a month.

[cptnflash]

...is tearing it up. Which really means close to nothing, especially since I can't see what's happening. I wonder if the W.Wash defense is leaving him alone to concentrate on our bigs, in effect picking their poison, and Rasheed is delivering?

Glad to see that we are outrebounding them while still shooting 52%.

They're not leaving him alone, he's just making plays. He's a much better dribbler than I was expecting, and more athletic. He reminds me a lot of Nolan, actually.

[delfrio]

:confused:

Links are at the bottom of this page (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205719435&DB_OEM_ID=4200). But you need to pay for a video/radio account.

[delfrio]

They're not leaving him alone, he's just making plays. He's a much better dribbler than I was expecting, and more athletic. He reminds me a lot of Nolan, actually.

He looks very in control. Good court vision, dribbling and smooth shot. And he's playing very decent on-ball defense. He's also bigger than Nolan (and looks it) which will really help against other guards in the league.

[MCFinARL]

:confused:

I think the only way you can see it is by subscribing to the Blue Devil Network on GoDuke.com. But you can follow the action and stats by using the live stats feature for free: http://www.goduke.com/newLiveStats/Basketball/index.dbml?GAME_STAT_ID=709814&db_oem_id=4200

What worries me looking at these stats, without actually knowing fully what is going on, is that Quinn Cook (whom I have very high hopes for) appears to have no assists in the first half and 0 for 4 shooting from the field, including 0 for 3 on threes. Not the best stat line for what we thought was a pass-first point guard--but as someone else pointed out, maybe the bigs are being effectively covered and the passes inside just aren't there today.

[Billy Dat]

I think it's well worth the $10 for one month to watch the preseason games. It provides a HD stream which I connected to my TV...viola...big screen viewing experience!

I missed the first 5 minutes but I must echo the comments of Duke Lifer and others:
-Rasheed looks really tough. He is very aggressive but under control on offense. Mason is drawing a lot of attention and Sheed took advantage to take his man to the hole several times, and he also splashed a nice 3.
-Amile is playing really hard. He's gotten beat off the bounce a few times, but he recovered to block a few shots and has been active on the offensive glass
-We did a poor job of getting Mason touches early on but looked for hm more and he converted nicely. We simply must focus on getting him the ball, he needs to touch it nearly every time because it opens everything up.
-Ryan has been really quiet, I don't feel him asserting his presence on the game
-Quinn looks pretty good out there, he seems more comfortable, kind of like he's not waiting for the hook if he makes a mistake, which is good.
-I thought Murphy looked ok in the time he was out there, he wasn't in a groove but he was a presence
-Hairston looked pretty good, better then I thought he would. He swished a pair of free throws which made me happy
-Tyler is about the same, he already angered the opposing guard so much that he got a forearm to the chest and drew a foul.
-Western Washington is a nice opponent. They spread out and jack threes and take it to the hole and seem hard nosed. Good scheduling for preseason.

[Edouble]

I think the only way you can see it is by subscribing to the Blue Devil Network on GoDuke.com. But you can follow the action and stats by using the live stats feature for free: http://www.goduke.com/newLiveStats/Basketball/index.dbml?GAME_STAT_ID=709814&db_oem_id=4200

What worries me looking at these stats, without actually knowing fully what is going on, is that Quinn Cook (whom I have very high hopes for) appears to have no assists in the first half and 0 for 4 shooting from the field, including 0 for 3 on threes. Not the best stat line for what we thought was a pass-first point guard--but as someone else pointed out, maybe the bigs are being effectively covered and the passes inside just aren't there today.

I noticed Q's lack of assists too. Perhaps a result of Rasheed making plays? Quinn passing to someone who then passes to Rasheed? If Rasheed has the hot hand, he is getting the ball where he needs to get it to score, which is Quinn's ultimate responsibility, not just racking up assists. Just something to think about. Perhaps someone who is watching the game can comment. I am fine with Quinn going 0-4 if they are good looks and he is getting everyone else involved. If he shoots shots that are his shots, they will start to fall.

[Billy Dat]

I noticed Q's lack of assists too. Perhaps a result of Rasheed making plays? Quinn passing to someone who then passes to Rasheed? If Rasheed has the hot hand, he is getting the ball where he needs to get it to score, which is Quinn's ultimate responsibility, not just racking up assists. Just something to think about. Perhaps someone who is watching the game can comment. I am fine with Quinn going 0-4 if they are good looks and he is getting everyone else involved. If he shoots shots that are his shots, they will start to fall.

Quinn is running the team nicely here in the second half. WWU is trapping a lot off the first screen and he has kept his composure and either beat it off the dribble or reset the offense.

After a big of slack play at around the 14 minute mark, K sat Kelly and Mason for a bit.

Jefferson is all over the place and making it seem like he should earn some real PT.

[Edouble]

Just opened up the expanded box score. Very encouraging to see that we have 4 personal fouls to their 23.

Edit: Actually, you don't have to open the expanded box score to get this info., but the expanded box score is still worth looking at :o

[MCFinARL]

I noticed Q's lack of assists too. Perhaps a result of Rasheed making plays? Quinn passing to someone who then passes to Rasheed? If Rasheed has the hot hand, he is getting the ball where he needs to get it to score, which is Quinn's ultimate responsibility, not just racking up assists. Just something to think about. Perhaps someone who is watching the game can comment. I am fine with Quinn going 0-4 if they are good looks and he is getting everyone else involved. If he shoots shots that are his shots, they will start to fall.

Reasonable analysis--and I hope you are right.

[dukelifer]

Jefferson is showing me a lot. The kid can play and has a ton of energy. Coach K's kind of player. This Western Washington team is pretty good. Either that- or Duke's D is pretty bad. WWU's players can all shoot and handle the ball.

[Cameron]

Yeah, it's a mountain school from Western Washington, but nice to see Rasheed jump right into things and immediately begin to prove the doubting Thomases wrong. Having watched this kid play several times, even as just a high schooler, the feeling that he just has that "it factor," that extra gear of determination that propels his game to another level, was just palpable. Glad to see the kid enjoying such a good day in his Duke debut.

As a two-way player with an abundance of athleticism and length, Rasheed is going to be invaluable for our unit this year and I believe will be a starter by mid-year, or at least will have put himself in an excellent position to take someone else's spot.

[dukelifer]

I noticed Q's lack of assists too. Perhaps a result of Rasheed making plays? Quinn passing to someone who then passes to Rasheed? If Rasheed has the hot hand, he is getting the ball where he needs to get it to score, which is Quinn's ultimate responsibility, not just racking up assists. Just something to think about. Perhaps someone who is watching the game can comment. I am fine with Quinn going 0-4 if they are good looks and he is getting everyone else involved. If he shoots shots that are his shots, they will start to fall.

Quinn has been just okay. I expected that he would be able to penetrate better- but so far WWU guards are hanging with him. He has shown a couple of good moments in the second half- a nice baseline drive and kickout 3 but the young guys have been more impressive.

[Cameron]

Quinn has been just okay. I expected that he would be able to penetrate better- but so far WWU guards are hanging with him. He has shown a couple of good moments in the second half- a nice baseline drive and kickout 3 but the young guys have been more impressive.

Who has run point for us today? Just Cook and Thornton has his backup?

[Billy Dat]

Quinn has been just okay. I expected that he would be able to penetrate better- but so far WWU guards are hanging with him. He has shown a couple of good moments in the second half- a nice baseline drive and kickout 3 but the young guys have been more impressive.

I am more bullish on Quinn's play. This WWU team is kind of like a Loyola Marymount of old, the spread, drive, kick and everyone shoots 3s. It's a real fast pace and Quinn has kept things under control. Tyler has been backing him up but Rasheed's been handling a bit, too.

[Cameron]

I am more bullish on Quinn's play. This WWU team is kind of like a Loyola Marymount of old, the spread, drive, kick and everyone shoots 3s. It's a real fast pace and Quinn has kept things under control. Tyler has been backing him up but Rasheed's been handling a bit, too.

What I was hoping to hear. Thanks :)

[Dukeblue91]

This went about as expected to me and I wish I could have actually watched the game.
The biggest surprises were Rasheed and Amile's play today.
Cook under preformed a little but this is only of what I could gather without actually seeing the game.
Mason P.and Kelly seemed to be looking good.

[Edouble]

I am more bullish on Quinn's play. This WWU team is kind of like a Loyola Marymount of old, the spread, drive, kick and everyone shoots 3s. It's a real fast pace and Quinn has kept things under control. Tyler has been backing him up but Rasheed's been handling a bit, too.

Not watching the box score develop (or watching the game for that matter), one would think Quinn had a fairly solid game. He was second on the team in minutes with 32, shot 40%, 4-5 from the line, with 13 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, and 1 steal. Downside: shooting just 1-5 from 3 pt land and 6 turnovers to 3 assists. The turnovers don't bother me so much in an early Duke team with only 2 returning starters. One of the only statistical areas that we didn't outperform W.Wash in was turnovers (15-18, in their favor), so it's not unreasonable to think that the whole team has some gelling to do.

If our two senior bigs are to be a focus on offense this season, with both scoring 22 points, you have to think that Quinn had something to do with that and give some credit in that department as well.

I also wonder how deflated the assist numbers are without Seth Curry in the game. If Curry runs baseline or gets a high screen to come around to the 3 point line and Quinn passes him the ball for a 3, and Seth sinks it, there's an easy assist. If Seth plays and does that 3 time/game, which I think is reasonable to estimate... there's 3 more assists. As it is, with Quinn talking about going after Hurley's single game assist record this season, you gotta think that he's looking to go out and at least have a goal of 8-10 assists per game though.

[burnspbesq]

WWU is a quality team. They lost their first exhibition game to U-Dub by only 10. They could play in the Big West or Big Sky. This was a useful game for Duke.

[rocketeli]

Saw the game on the inside access feed over at go duke. (as others stated you can buy a one month membership for $10 and see the preseason games.)
WWU may be division II, but I think Duke will see a few division 1 teams that aren't as good this year. They had some size and had already played a game, which makes a difference. They were not, however, particularly fast or athletic, especially on the perimeter.
In many ways it was a typical first game, preseason affair for Duke. The two freshmen looked good--both were athletic and active, and RS looked like he could challenge for a starting role, which hopefully would be motivating for SC in a good way. AM was better than last year's preseason efforts, where he looked clearly out of his depth. Today he was able to finish a couple of plays and it seemed like the game had "slowed down" for him a bit. I know a lot of people want him to be the second coming of Kyle Singler, but he should focus on being the first coming of Alex Murphy. QC was fine, whatever the boxscore says--much more active and aggressive than last year. TT did his thing. There was nothing WWU could do about MP II. RK did not have a good game for whatever reason, especially on defense, where even by his standards, he was terrible. For some reason he was especially bad about not losing his man, and defended a lot of shots by stopping a few feet from the shooter and languidly waving his arms at them. I suspect the coaching staff will address it. JH played a nice game--doing what he can do and providing energy. TZ made a 38 second appearance.
Overall, just one game, and a preseason one at that--but my impression was that the team is a bit quicker and more athletic than last year, and that our point guard play will be a little more solid, both of which are positive things.

[Dukeblue91]

Saw the game on the inside access feed over at go duke. (as others stated you can buy a one month membership for $10 and see the preseason games.)
WWU may be division II, but I think Duke will see a few division 1 teams that aren't as good this year. They had some size and had already played a game, which makes a difference. They were not, however, particularly fast or athletic, especially on the perimeter.
In many ways it was a typical first game, preseason affair for Duke. The two freshmen looked good--both were athletic and active, and RS looked like he could challenge for a starting role, which hopefully would be motivating for SC in a good way. AM was better than last year's preseason efforts, where he looked clearly out of his depth. Today he was able to finish a couple of plays and it seemed like the game had "slowed down" for him a bit. I know a lot of people want him to be the second coming of Kyle Singler, but he should focus on being the first coming of Alex Murphy. QC was fine, whatever the boxscore says--much more active and aggressive than last year. TT did his thing. There was nothing WWU could do about MP II. RK did not have a good game for whatever reason, especially on defense, where even by his standards, he was terrible. For some reason he was especially bad about not losing his man, and defended a lot of shots by stopping a few feet from the shooter and languidly waving his arms at them. I suspect the coaching staff will address it. JH played a nice game--doing what he can do and providing energy. TZ made a 38 second appearance.
Overall, just one game, and a preseason one at that--but my impression was that the team is a bit quicker and more athletic than last year, and that our point guard play will be a little more solid, both of which are positive things.

Now I did not watch the game and only followed the box score but I have a hard time computing what you said about Ryan Kelly.
His box score reads that he had 22 Points, 4 asst, 6 rebounds, 1 block and shot 3 of 4 3pt. 6 of 9 fg and 7 for 7 free throws.
In the bad column he had 1 foul and 3 TO in 28 minutes where as Mason had 5 TO and 3 fouls.
I would hardly call that a bad game.

[dcar1985]

Now I did not watch the game and only followed the box score but I have a hard time computing what you said about Ryan Kelly.
His box score reads that he had 22 Points, 4 asst, 6 rebounds, 1 block and shot 3 of 4 3pt. 6 of 9 fg and 7 for 7 free throws.
In the bad column he had 1 foul and 3 TO in 28 minutes where as Mason had 5 TO and 3 fouls.
I would hardly call that a bad game.

Having also watched the game and thinking the same thing, I'll cosign, Ryan looked disinterested and just down right bad on D today, didn't close out at all, wasn't a defensive presence down low...He looked fine on O but defense was a whole different story

[arnie]

Having also watched the game and thinking the same thing, I'll cosign, Ryan looked disinterested and just down right bad on D today, didn't close out at all, wasn't a defensive presence down low...He looked fine on O but defense was a whole different story

Ryan definitely struggled on D. At the game and thought Rasheed may be a starter much of the year. Amile looked better than in scrimmage. He will play good minutes

[Dukehky]

I firmly believe that Rasheed should start. I know that since Seth is out it's easier to forget how good he is, but I think he would have significantly more impact coming off of the bench. As we saw a little bit of today, Rasheed is an absolute animal on the defensive end, and as we're all pretty confident in saying, defense isn't Seth's forte. I think that bringing Seth off of the bench is going to provide Duke with a guaranteed scoring punch off the bench that we otherwise would have to depend on a freshman to do.

I think Murphy wasn't great today except in the open court, but I think he's going to be a solid player. Amile surprised me a little bit, but if he's that active an energizer bunny-ish, I wouldn't mind him starting over Murphy at the 3 (little less perimeter threat with Amile) since we already have a little spit-fire coming off the bench in Thornton.

Gracious alive Murphy looks like Singler out there, even in the way he moves.

[Kedsy]

I firmly believe that Rasheed should start. I know that since Seth is out it's easier to forget how good he is, but I think he would have significantly more impact coming off of the bench. As we saw a little bit of today, Rasheed is an absolute animal on the defensive end, and as we're all pretty confident in saying, defense isn't Seth's forte. I think that bringing Seth off of the bench is going to provide Duke with a guaranteed scoring punch off the bench that we otherwise would have to depend on a freshman to do.

The key point is Seth's injury. If the injury remains persistent for much of the season, so that he's not able to play big minutes, or if the injury sets him back from a conditioning standpoint, then your idea might come to fruition. If Seth comes back fully healthy, I find it hard to believe that he'll end up coming off the bench. He's a senior, a returning all-conference player, and other than possibly Ryan he's our best outside shooter. Plus, Coach K has said he believes Seth is one of our best three players (along with Ryan and Mason) and that he expects him to be our leading scorer.

I think Rasheed will get plenty of minutes as sixth man, backing up three spots on the floor, but the only way he starts if is Seth's injury is (or becomes) worse than it seems to be.

[mgtr]

I absolutely agree that WWU was a good team, and the comparison to old Loyola Marymount teams is spot on. I, too, was surprised at how well our freshmen played. It doesn't bother me in the least that we have too many potential starters! After seeing him play in the blue/white, I really believe that having Rodney Hood to practice against will help Murphy and Jefferson.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

was Andre on the bench today? I don't recall seeing him at CTC.

[devil84]

Andre is red-shirting (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29373-New-article-on-Andre-Dawkins) this year.

[uh_no]

was Andre on the bench today? I don't recall seeing him at CTC.

No. As far as I know, he has been doing nothing with the team.

[NM Duke Fan]

The key point is Seth's injury. If the injury remains persistent for much of the season, so that he's not able to play big minutes, or if the injury sets him back from a conditioning standpoint, then your idea might come to fruition. If Seth comes back fully healthy, I find it hard to believe that he'll end up coming off the bench. He's a senior, a returning all-conference player, and other than possibly Ryan he's our best outside shooter. Plus, Coach K has said he believes Seth is one of our best three players (along with Ryan and Mason) and that he expects him to be our leading scorer.

I think Rasheed will get plenty of minutes as sixth man, backing up three spots on the floor, but the only way he starts if is Seth's injury is (or becomes) worse than it seems to be.

Actually, I think that the key point, as I have said more than once, is that Rasheed has a genetic advantage in height, strength, lateral quickness, speed. He also demonstrates a level of defensive skill and natural aptitude that is a rare commodity on this team. And I even think he can be a very good 3 point shooter as well. In sum, I agree with Cameron that Seth eventually may be coming off the bench as a very valuable sixth man providing instant scoring, and IF this happens, it will not be the first time a senior has been asked to do so. I am well aware of what the coaches have said about Seth, but now they are seeing Rasheed in action and what a difference maker he already is within the team concept. I and others could end up being wrong, but I see a real chance of Rasheed being the preferred option as the starter at some point in the year, even if Seth is 100 percent. And in some ways it really will not matter either way, they both will get ample playing time. There have been a few teams over the years who have essentially had six starters . . .

[mo.st.dukie]

In sum, I agree with Cameron that Seth eventually may be coming off the bench as a very valuable sixth man providing instant scoring, and IF this happens, it will not be the first time a senior has been asked to do so.

It would be almost identical to the Greg Paulus situation. Greg averaged 11 ppg as a junior, Seth averaged 13. Greg made All-ACC 3rd team as a junior, Seth also made All-ACC 3rd team as a junior. Greg suffered an injury (either offseason or preseason, can't remember) that bothered him all seasons long. Seth suffered an injury in the preseason that Coach K says could bother him for a while.

Nolan Smith, and later Elliot Williams, provided length, speed, height, and athleticism that Greg just couldn't bring to the table.

[Indoor66]

I was pleased to see that we shot over 77% from the free throw line - as a team. Mason shot 75% (6-8)! Great improvement showing hard work.

[ChillinDuke]

Actually, I think that the key point, as I have said more than once, is that Rasheed has a genetic advantage in height, strength, lateral quickness, speed. He also demonstrates a level of defensive skill and natural aptitude that is a rare commodity on this team. And I even think he can be a very good 3 point shooter as well.

What are you basing this on? One exhibition game?


In sum, I agree with Cameron that Seth eventually may be coming off the bench as a very valuable sixth man providing instant scoring, and IF this happens, it will not be the first time a senior has been asked to do so. I am well aware of what the coaches have said about Seth, but now they are seeing Rasheed in action and what a difference maker he already is within the team concept.

Haven't they seen Rasheed in action many, many times before? That's why they wanted him. They have also seen him in practice.

What notable difference has he made thus far - in an 18-point win against a DII opponent?


I and others could end up being wrong, but I see a real chance of Rasheed being the preferred option as the starter at some point in the year, even if Seth is 100 percent. And in some ways it really will not matter either way, they both will get ample playing time. There have been a few teams over the years who have essentially had six starters . . .

It just seems way, way too early to be making these kinds of statements. I think Rasheed is going to be an excellent player, and I really liked what I saw today in his first game action that I've seen. But I'm not ready to write Seth off. Parallels to Paulus are not quite fair, IMO. Greg had clear struggles that, at least to me, Seth hasn't shown.

I'm quite sure I will love getting to know Rasheed over the next few weeks and months. Glad he's on our side.

- Chillin

[Cameron]

The key point is Seth's injury. If the injury remains persistent for much of the season, so that he's not able to play big minutes, or if the injury sets him back from a conditioning standpoint, then your idea might come to fruition. If Seth comes back fully healthy, I find it hard to believe that he'll end up coming off the bench. He's a senior, a returning all-conference player, and other than possibly Ryan he's our best outside shooter. Plus, Coach K has said he believes Seth is one of our best three players (along with Ryan and Mason) and that he expects him to be our leading scorer.

I think Rasheed will get plenty of minutes as sixth man, backing up three spots on the floor, but the only way he starts if is Seth's injury is (or becomes) worse than it seems to be.

Another way Rasheed could start is if deep into the season Seth continues to play perimeter defense like a folding chair. As others have pointed out, there is a previous case at Duke where a once-prominent senior team leader and star shooter, yet struggling defender, all-of-sudden disappeared like an airplane in a David Copperfield act and never played again: Greg Paulus. And Paulus was just as good, if not better, a three-point shooter than Curry. (I base this off comparable career percentages, Paulus making a higher volume of 3-point baskets as a sophomore and junior compared to Curry, and Paulus possessing considerably deeper range -- he was a threat to make a shot from 25 feet in at any given time, whereas Curry rarely shows that kind of versatility.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not contending that Curry's playing time will ever drop as dramatically as Paulus' did in 2008-09 -- it won't -- but I am not sure it would surprise me to see Curry eventually employed in more of a sixth-man role. If Rasheed really breaks out early in the season and proves not only to be a defensive stopper but also a reliant scorer, moving him into the lineup might be the best decision for the overall success of the team to ensure that we always have at least one first-line defender matched up against the opposing team's top penetrator on the perimeter -- Thornton, when he is in the game, would be the other. A move like that would then enable K to utilize Seth as a classic Vinnie "Microwave" Johnson type of scorer off the bench, and Seth, a hired gun with the ability to go on serious bang-bang spurts, would excel beautifully in such a capacity. That is, of course, if he could accept it as a positive move for the team and not a personal demotion.

Will Seth end up as a sixth-man? Considering K's high esteem for Seth as a scorer and experienced leader, probably not. But, depending on Rasheed's level of play, I don't think we should rule the possibility out.

[Cameron]

What are you basing this on? One exhibition game?


I would guess that NM Duke Fan is also basing his observations of Sulaimon off other factors, such as performance at the high school level -- which earned Rasheed McDonald's All-American status -- and from the observations offered by talent evaluators and recruiting experts as well as the Duke staff who has made plenty of mention of the kid's defensive prowess, playmaking ability and overall basketball intelligence. Rasheed is a freshman, after all, and like any newcomer, including a "superstar" like Shabazz Muhammad, success at the prep level and the very minimal time he has spent to this point competing in college is really all you can go on at this point to appraise the kid.

Time will tell the rest of the story.

[Duke76]

I firmly believe that Rasheed should start. I know that since Seth is out it's easier to forget how good he is, but I think he would have significantly more impact coming off of the bench. As we saw a little bit of today, Rasheed is an absolute animal on the defensive end, and as we're all pretty confident in saying, defense isn't Seth's forte. I think that bringing Seth off of the bench is going to provide Duke with a guaranteed scoring punch off the bench that we otherwise would have to depend on a freshman to do.

I think Murphy wasn't great today except in the open court, but I think he's going to be a solid player. Amile surprised me a little bit, but if he's that active an energizer bunny-ish, I wouldn't mind him starting over Murphy at the 3 (little less perimeter threat with Amile) since we already have a little spit-fire coming off the bench in Thornton.

Gracious alive Murphy looks like Singler out there, even in the way he moves.

i was at the blue white game last week and i thought he moved on the court like him as well...Tate was one of my all time favorites..guess i am a little biased he was in my class of "76...always have said it was a tragedy whem he broke his hand his senior yr....the guy was so competitive that he played his last games shooting left handed...you couldn't stop him that yr before he broke his hand...range was 30 ft long

anyway Alex is a going to be key for us this yr imo

[JNort]

While I tend to agree with you i have a problem figuring out who he would start over. Cook is deff the pg and when Seth gets healed up he will be the sg which leaves Alex who provides s a true sf. Its probably best if Sheed is a 6th man with starter mins this year and then starts next year once Seth leaves which would make Dawkins our 6th man. Seems more likely barring a collapse on Seth as a player(or God forbid an injury) that Seth starts all year.

[dukeballboy88]

Is Quin a lock to start? Could we see a starting back court of Rasheed and Seth? Both would be small SG's at the next level and that has to be a individual goal of each player. So could we see either start at the point?

[Native]

Is Quin a lock to start? Could we see a starting back court of Rasheed and Seth? Both would be small SG's at the next level and that has to be a individual goal of each player. So could we see either start at the point?

Coach K has said that Quinn is the starter at PG IIRC - at least for the time being. I think we're all going to see shades of Chris Duhon and Nolan Smith in Sheed, so he could probably handle some duties at the point if absolutely necessary. I don't think it will be, though.

[Greg_Newton]

I thought we looked better defensively in the first half, then struggled in the second (looks like they shot 17% better in the 2nd). It was nice to see the freshmen play well - Sulaimon, of course, but I'm glad Amile had a nice game after not faring so well at CTC. Interesting to see him almost exclusively at the 3, though.

Interesting that after how many threes we launched last year, we're really not a great shooting team without Curry. I like the size and length we have with a 6'8-6'9 guy at SF though, so I hope we don't eventually just revert back to last year's lineup with Sulaimon at SF. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[dukedoc]

A brief highlight reel from today's game. Lots of Sheed. LINK (http://www.goduke.com//mediaPortal/player.dbml?POPOUT=1&db_oem_id=4200&id=1076109&catid=9109&start=-1)

[FerryFor50]

I firmly believe that Rasheed should start. I know that since Seth is out it's easier to forget how good he is, but I think he would have significantly more impact coming off of the bench. As we saw a little bit of today, Rasheed is an absolute animal on the defensive end, and as we're all pretty confident in saying, defense isn't Seth's forte. I think that bringing Seth off of the bench is going to provide Duke with a guaranteed scoring punch off the bench that we otherwise would have to depend on a freshman to do.

I think Murphy wasn't great today except in the open court, but I think he's going to be a solid player. Amile surprised me a little bit, but if he's that active an energizer bunny-ish, I wouldn't mind him starting over Murphy at the 3 (little less perimeter threat with Amile) since we already have a little spit-fire coming off the bench in Thornton.

Gracious alive Murphy looks like Singler out there, even in the way he moves.

I don't see how you can make a statement that Rasheed should start based on one exhibition game that Set didn't even play in.

Will Rasheed be good? Likely. Is he better than Seth at this point? We'll see. I assume it will be an Elliot Williams-type of scenario rather than a Greg Paulus...

[Kedsy]

Interesting that after how many threes we launched last year, we're really not a great shooting team without Curry.

I agree, and believe this is one big reason that Seth will be starting so long as he is healthy.


Another way Rasheed could start is if deep into the season Seth continues to play perimeter defense like a folding chair.

I'm not saying Seth has been a plus defender, but I don't think he has been as poor a defender as you seem to think. Folding chair is certainly a bit harsh.

The funny thing is, and I'm not attributing the following to you or any specific poster, but I remember two years ago at this same point in the season when people were arguing that new transfer Seth was going to start over Nolan, and then last year when some posters believed Seth and Andre would both come off the bench, replaced in the starting lineup by freshmen Quinn Cook and Michael Gbinije. (Although as we know, Andre did end up coming off the bench, but he was essentially replaced by Tyler Thornton, who pretty much nobody had thought would wind up as the starter.)

As far as I'm concerned, the Seth situation is entirely different from the Greg Paulus experience in 2009, and even if it weren't, the idea that in pretty much the entire K era you can name just one player who fell from full-time starter to benchwarmer his senior year if anything shows the unlikelihood of it happening now. I don't think we should consider it strongly possible even if you could name two or three over a thirty year span, although I can't think of any others -- Ricky Price started 29 games as a sophomore but only 11 as a junior before dropping from sight as a senior; John Smith started 30 as a sophomore but only 9 as a junior and 10 as a senior. I don't think either of those guys count, though I admit I haven't researched it thoroughly, so it's possible I missed one or two.

EDIT: Jeff Capel started every game his junior year and only 18 of 33 his senior year, although it's a bit different because he began his senior season coming off the bench and ended up starting the last 13 games that year, so I'm not sure that should count either.

[Kedsy]

Actually, I think that the key point, as I have said more than once, is that Rasheed has a genetic advantage in height, strength, lateral quickness, speed.

Well, actually, Coach K already knew Rasheed's "genetic advantages" when he announced Seth would be the starter and was our best perimeter player and that he expected Seth to be our leading scorer, didn't he? If those things were the key point, presumably K would have said Rasheed would start ahead of Seth, but in fact he said the opposite and didn't really leave any wiggle room. So I doubt your premise.

[tele]

Nice game to start the season. Good to see Mason and Kelly get off to good starts and once Curry gets back can expect him to pick up where he left off too. I liked Kelly's game, only one foul, it will be big to keep both kelly and Mason out of foul trouble, especially early on in the season. Nice to see Kelly chip in with more rebounding too with 6 boards, 3 offensive, will need to make up for the loss of Miles' rebounding. Duke had assists on about half of it''s made baskets, which is a good sign for sharing the ball and playing together.

Sulaimon took full advantage of the increased playing time from Curry's injury, should help him and the team down the road.

[Cameron]

I'm not saying Seth has been a plus defender, but I don't think he has been as poor a defender as you seem to think. Folding chair is certainly a bit harsh.

The funny thing is, and I'm not attributing the following to you or any specific poster, but I remember two years ago at this same point in the season when people were arguing that new transfer Seth was going to start over Nolan, and then last year when some posters believed Seth and Andre would both come off the bench, replaced in the starting lineup by freshmen Quinn Cook and Michael Gbinije. (Although as we know, Andre did end up coming off the bench, but he was essentially replaced by Tyler Thornton, who pretty much nobody had thought would wind up as the starter.)

As far as I'm concerned, the Seth situation is entirely different from the Greg Paulus experience in 2009, and even if it weren't, the idea that in pretty much the entire K era you can name just one player who fell from full-time starter to benchwarmer his senior year if anything shows the unlikelihood of it happening now. I don't think we should consider it strongly possible even if you could name two or three over a thirty year span, although I can't think of any others -- Ricky Price started 29 games as a sophomore but only 11 as a junior before dropping from sight as a senior; John Smith started 30 as a sophomore but only 9 as a junior and 10 as a senior. I don't think either of those guys count, though I admit I haven't researched it thoroughly, so it's possible I missed one or two.

EDIT: Jeff Capel started every game his junior year and only 18 of 33 his senior year, although it's a bit different because he began his senior season coming off the bench and ended up starting the last 13 games that year, so I'm not sure that should count either.

As underscored in my original post, ultimately I don't believe K will "bench" Seth. While there have been precedents at Duke for senior leaders losing their roles in the past, there is not, as you point out, a pattern of this happening over the course of K's career. But if it were to occur, and the potential emergence of the more multifaceted Rasheed Sulaimon at some point in the season facilitated moving Seth out of the lineup and into a sixth-man role, I wouldn't view it as a benching at all. As we've seen with guys like Jon Scheyer in the past, sixth men are just as important and end up spending just as much time on the floor as the starters in many cases. It's about who finishes the game, and our best guards are almost always going to be on the floor in the final minutes. In 2008, Jon only started one game, after starting 32 of 33 during a superb campaign as a freshman, but was as deadly as Rod Beck when coming off the bench as a closer for Duke. If ever put in that scenario, Seth would have just as much an impact on this team in that role as he would as a starter and likely wouldn't miss a beat in terms of the amount of looks he gets. And as our best shooter, from both the field and the line, he'd get starter's minutes and be out there to relieve us at the end of tight games.

I do think, however, that the Greg Paulus situation -- or perhaps even the Ricky Price affair; although, if I remember correctly, there were also either academic or off-the-court issues with Ricky that accounted for the decreased PT and role on the team late in his career -- should serve as an advisory for any Duke player who might think he's entitled as an upperclassman to be "the man," no matter how much experience he has. As much praise as K may be giving Curry as this year's "leader," he directed those same praises at Paulus as a junior and then came along Elliot Williams and that was that. And I personally don't think Greg Paulus had any idea whatsoever what was about to hit him as a senior. In fact, in a conversation I had with him at the Duke Camp in the sumer of 2008, Paulus hinted that he expected to be one of the core scorers on that 2009 team and that he would be given the green light from anywhere on the court. Unfortunately for Greg, the only part of the court that you can't shoot the ball is out of bounds.

[dukeofcalabash]

As underscored in my original post, ultimately I don't believe K will "bench" Seth. While there have been precedents at Duke for senior leaders losing their roles in the past, there is not, as you point out, a pattern of this happening over the course of K's career. But if it were to occur, and the potential emergence of the more multifaceted Rasheed Sulaimon at some point in the season facilitated moving Seth out of the lineup and into a sixth-man role, I wouldn't view it as a benching at all. As we've seen with guys like Jon Scheyer in the past, sixth men are just as important and end up spending just as much time on the floor as the starters in many cases. It's about who finishes the game, and our best guards are almost always going to be on the floor in the final minutes. In 2008, Jon only started one game, after starting 32 of 33 during a superb campaign as a freshman, but was as deadly as Rod Beck when coming off the bench as a closer for Duke. If ever put in that scenario, Seth would have just as much an impact on this team in that role as he would as a starter and likely wouldn't miss a beat in terms of the amount of looks he gets. And as our best shooter, from both the field and the line, he'd get starter's minutes and be out there to relieve us at the end of tight games.

I do think, however, that the Greg Paulus situation -- or perhaps even the Ricky Price affair; although, if I remember correctly, there were also either academic or off-the-court issues with Ricky that accounted for the decreased PT and role on the team late in his career -- should serve as an advisory for any Duke player who might think he's entitled as an upperclassman to be "the man," no matter how much experience he has. As much praise as K may be giving Curry as this year's "leader," he directed those same praises at Paulus as a junior and then came along Elliot Williams and that was that. And I personally don't think Greg Paulus had any idea whatsoever what was about to hit him as a senior. In fact, in a conversation I had with him at the Duke Camp in the sumer of 2008, Paulus hinted that he expected to be one of the core scorers on that 2009 team and that he would be given the green light from anywhere on the court. Unfortunately for Greg, the only part of the court that you can't shoot the ball is out of bounds.

Never one to question who Coach K puts on the court, but after observing Seth Curry last year it is obvious that IF he plays a majority of minutes it will only mean that Coach has no one with enough overall abilities to surplant a senior. I honestly do not see how Seth can improve his speed or his height, not to mention anything about his leadership skills that did not surface last year. This is exactly the type of problem that leads to excitement in the beginning of the year, but also concern for the overall success of the team.

[OldPhiKap]

I predict that Amile will join the list of "most hated Dukies" before too long. All energy, very emotive.

Rasheed has real game. Alex looked solid.

It may take some time for the roles to develop, but K has a lot to work with this year.

[sagegrouse]

. As much praise as K may be giving Curry as this year's "leader," he directed those same praises at Paulus as a junior and then came along Elliot Williams and that was that. And I personally don't think Greg Paulus had any idea whatsoever what was about to hit him as a senior.

I don't think Elliott Williams had anything to do with Paulus's benching. K decided at the beginning of the season to go with Scheyer, Smith and Henderson. Because the front court included two forwards, Singler and LT, that didn't leave room in the starting lineup for Greg. I mean -- seriously -- would you or anyone have started Paulus over Scheyer, Nolan or Gerald, once they got their bearings at Duke? Greg started only five games that year -- and three were "K-grams" after disappointing performances. (In two of those Marty Pocius also got the start.)

EWill got the starting nod for 12 games, mostly at the end of the season. And wasn't this a result not only of a major talent maturing on defense but also of Nolan's concussion up at Maryland?

Greg's relegation was primarily the result of the coaching staff's realizing that Jon Scheyer could play the point.

Now Seth may end up on the bench if Quinn and Rasheed turn out to be all-world performers, but even if they do, it is likely that Rasheed would be the sixth man, bringing energy and scoring off the bench.

On defense, I think we have all noticed that Seth has extremely quick hands, which I attribute to being the little guy at the dinner table with Dell and Stephen -- he needed to be quick, or he would have starved to death. Now he has to develop the other defensive skills.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

On defense, I think we have all noticed that Seth has extremely quick hands, which I attribute to being the little guy at the dinner table with Dell and Stephen -- he needed to be quick, or he would have starved to death. Now he has to develop the other defensive skills.

sagegrouse

Blocking out the mashed potatoes?

[sporthenry]

Rasheed looks like the real deal. Perhaps he doesn't have the translatable skills to the NBA and certainly not the pedigree Rivers has but I'm surprised more people don't mention him as a 1 and done. I think Rivers showed his ability to get to the basket which is crucial in the NBA but struggled mightily at times with the rest of his game. Sheed seems to have a more developed all around game and while his ceiling might not be as high, I certainly expect him to fit into Duke's offense very nicely this year.

With K, I think he'll do wonders with everyone's mental state. That is why I think you had him selecting Curry to start because benching Curry might lose him for the year. I think Sheed will have plenty of time in games as he'll be able to play the 1-3 if necessary and it isn't who starts the game or even the season but who finishes the games and seasons. We'll start Curry and Thornton and Hairston will get their chances and if they aren't up to it, then I suspect you'll see Amile and Rasheed pick up the slack especially come January when K's rotation gets smaller.

[Cameron]

I mean -- seriously -- would you or anyone have started Paulus over Scheyer, Nolan or Gerald, once they got their bearings at Duke? Greg started only five games that year -- and three were "K-grams" after disappointing performances. (In two of those Marty Pocius also got the start.)

Honestly, probably not. But I certainly would have played him more than 16 minutes over a four-game stretch in mid-March. Greg was not only the best shooter on our team in 2008-09, but he also exhibited an unmatched amount of work ethic and team leadership, attributes that I think might have been helpful in our utterly dismal (read: straight up embarrassing) performance against Villanova in the regional semi-finals, a game in which Greg only played 10 minutes of "JayVee" time. But by that point in the season, after being benched for pretty much the entirety of his senior campaign, Greg was pretty much useless. Not because he had given up, but simply because his skills and timing were no longer where they once were. As a junior, this kid was phenomenal as a shooter, team distributor and the clear on-court leader of our unit. We had a double-digit lead on West Virginia at one point in our second round NCAA game in '08, and that was because of Greg Paulus' offensive leadership. That's where Paulus differs from Curry. Curry, as good a player as he is, has never proven to be a genuine floor general or capable of leading the team in that capacity. He's a scorer. That's his role.

And, again, that is my precise point. Greg Paulus was all of those things and yet, as a senior, he was erased from existence as quickly as the words on a chalkboard. If Rasheed proves to be that "Jon Scheyer" that you speak of, and capable bringing the type of two-way play that would warrant taking Curry's spot in the starting five, then that is what should happen.


it is likely that Rasheed would be the sixth man, bringing energy and scoring off the bench.


Seth Curry would fit perfectly in this role as well. He has the classic characteristics of a great sixth man: ability to score quickly and in bunches, excellent three-point shooting and a frothing confidence. Think Bobby Jackson without the defense.


On defense, I think we have all noticed that Seth has extremely quick hands, which I attribute to being the little guy at the dinner table with Dell and Stephen -- he needed to be quick, or he would have starved to death. Now he has to develop the other defensive skills.

sagegrouse

And if Seth were on scholarship at Duke to play "spoons," that would be impressive.

[Kedsy]

As we've seen with guys like Jon Scheyer in the past, sixth men are just as important and end up spending just as much time on the floor as the starters in many cases. It's about who finishes the game, and our best guards are almost always going to be on the floor in the final minutes. In 2008, Jon only started one game, after starting 32 of 33 during a superb campaign as a freshman, but was as deadly as Rod Beck when coming off the bench as a closer for Duke. If ever put in that scenario, Seth would have just as much an impact on this team in that role as he would as a starter and likely wouldn't miss a beat in terms of the amount of looks he gets. And as our best shooter, from both the field and the line, he'd get starter's minutes and be out there to relieve us at the end of tight games.

In Scheyer's case, my recollection is K realized Gerald Henderson performed much better as a starter than coming off the bench and he didn't think it would matter to Jon. So there was a specific reason for it. I agree with you that who starts is less important than who finishes, but if you're right that both Seth and Rasheed will play "starters minutes" (and I think you are) why would K start Rasheed over Seth without an excellent and specific reason? And nobody has raised any such reason, other than Rasheed is good, which I don't think is nearly enough to take Seth out of the starting lineup.


I do think, however, that the Greg Paulus situation -- or perhaps even the Ricky Price affair; although, if I remember correctly, there were also either academic or off-the-court issues with Ricky that accounted for the decreased PT and role on the team late in his career -- should serve as an advisory for any Duke player who might think he's entitled as an upperclassman to be "the man," no matter how much experience he has.

First of all, I haven't seen anything that suggests Seth feels "entitled" to his starting job, other than possibly his being one of the team's best three players according to Coach K.

Putting that aside, the reason I think Greg Paulus's situation is not pertinent here is Greg "lost" his starting job before his senior season began. Right from game one. Assuming Seth gets over his injury that's not the case here. As soon as he's healthy he will start. And I can't think of a single player at Duke who was the primary starter his entire junior year and held the job at the beginning of his senior year who then lost his starting status in the middle of his senior season. And if it's never happened before, it would seem the odds are heavily against it happening now.

Having said all that, if Seth's injury makes it difficult for him to play full starter's minutes, or he returns not quite in game shape, then all bets are off and I could see him coming off the bench. That's why I said his injury is the key point in this debate.

[devildeac]

Blocking out the mashed potatoes?

And your lumpy gravy:rolleyes:;).

Seriously, the good/quick hands observation in interesting. If his leadership and help skills/sense on D are really good, then he becomes even more valuable than he already is, assuming his injury is not significantly limiting.

[mgtr]

And if Seth were on scholarship at Duke to play "spoons," that would be impressive.

Or maybe the marimba!

[Cameron]

I agree with you that who starts is less important than who finishes, but if you're right that both Seth and Rasheed will play "starters minutes" (and I think you are) why would K start Rasheed over Seth without an excellent and specific reason? And nobody has raised any such reason, other than Rasheed is good, which I don't think is nearly enough to take Seth out of the starting lineup.

I have. Defense. It's obviously a conditional argument, dependent on how well Rasheed performs over the first few weeks of the season in comparison to Seth, but if he proves to be the clear, top perimeter defender on the club, and is scoring well in addition to that, then Rasheed would be the obvious choice to get the nod. My opinion, of course.


First of all, I haven't seen anything that suggests Seth feels "entitled" to his starting job, other than possibly his being one of the team's best three players according to Coach K.

Entitled is probably the wrong word. Maybe "expect" would be better. Point being, the Greg Paulus situation proves that, no matter how much talent you bring to the table in certain areas of the game, you are guaranteed nothing. The Paulus situation is a rather extreme case -- and something that I am still very disappointed by. I do not think that anything remotely close to that will happen to Curry. But a sixth-man role is something that could very well happen and I think that would be a great fit for Seth if it ever did. It would just be up to him to accept it and move positively forward.

[Cameron]

Or maybe the marimba!

Lol. Maybe we should have given Greg a xylophone to play with on the bench as a senior.

(Painful memories for this Paulus fan.)

[Kedsy]

I have. Defense. It's obviously a conditional argument, dependent on how well Rasheed performs over the first few weeks of the season in comparison to Seth, but if he proves to be the clear, top perimeter defender on the club, and is scoring well in addition to that, then Rasheed would be the obvious choice to get the nod. My opinion, of course.

Well, defense is presumably what will earn Rasheed starter's minutes, but if (as you've said) you think Seth will also get starter's minutes and will be in there at the end of games (when defense can be especially critical), I don't understand why Rasheed's defense would put him ahead of Seth as a starter?

Put another way, when I said a specific and excellent reason, I meant a reason for starting as opposed to getting starter's minutes (like when K said G performed better as a starter but Jon performed the same whether he started or not). Why would Rasheed's superior defensive skills make more sense at the start of the game than at any other time?

Also, Rasheed's defensive acumen is also presumably better than Quinn's or Alex's. Why are you singling out Seth as the guy to sit as opposed to one of the others?

Finally, if what you're really saying is Rasheed will ultimately earn more minutes of playing time per game than Seth, that's an entirely different discussion. My guess is that won't happen either (assuming Seth is fully healthy), because Seth's shooting prowess and experience should mean he's on the court as much as he can handle. But arguments like yours that Rasheed is a better defender also have a lot of credence, and I don't think anybody's crystal ball is clear enough to answer that one definitively.

[cptnflash]

Whenever Seth is fully healed, he'll be back in the starting lineup. I still believe he will be a dominant scorer this year. What will be interesting to me is whether Rasheed winds up as our starting point guard before the year is over. His handle, athleticism, intelligence, and demeanor were unbelievably impressive yesterday. What more could we ask for in a field general, besides experience?

[jipops]

I have. Defense. It's obviously a conditional argument, dependent on how well Rasheed performs over the first few weeks of the season in comparison to Seth, but if he proves to be the clear, top perimeter defender on the club, and is scoring well in addition to that, then Rasheed would be the obvious choice to get the nod. My opinion, of course.



Entitled is probably the wrong word. Maybe "expect" would be better. Point being, the Greg Paulus situation proves that, no matter how much talent you bring to the table in certain areas of the game, you are guaranteed nothing. The Paulus situation is a rather extreme case -- and something that I am still very disappointed by. I do not think that anything remotely close to that will happen to Curry. But a sixth-man role is something that could very well happen and I think that would be a great fit for Seth if it ever did. It would just be up to him to accept it and move positively forward.

If Seth is not able to return close to 100%, it's going to be short March and a difficult ACC season to witness, no matter how good Rasheed is as a freshman. Seth is that important. We need him on the floor a lot and in end game situations.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Because I just watched the highlights, and I saw spitting images of both Nolan and Kyle.

That makes me very, very happy.

[Edouble]

And I can't think of a single player at Duke who was the primary starter his entire junior year and held the job at the beginning of his senior year who then lost his starting status in the middle of his senior season. And if it's never happened before, it would seem the odds are heavily against it happening now.

A very close case is Roshod McLeod, who started 30 of 33 games as a junior, losing his starting spot to freshman Elton Brand in 1997. After starting his first game against Army, as a senior, McLeod was taken out of the starting lineup with Brand, Battier and Mike Chappell all getting the nod ahead of the senior. It was essentially Brand that replaced him, as once Brand sustained a late December foot injury, Roshod went back into the lineup, with Coach K finally settling on a 3 forward front line of McCleod, Battier, and Carrawell. For all practical purposes, Ro' was the center in this lineup. Brand famously talked Roshod up after his foot injury, telling him that it was his time to shine. It appears unlikely that Roshod would have emerged to have the solid senior season that he had without Brand's injury.

[Kedsy]

A very close case is Roshod McLeod, who started 30 of 33 games as a junior, losing his starting spot to freshman Elton Brand in 1997. After starting his first game against Army, as a senior, McLeod was taken out of the starting lineup with Brand, Battier and Mike Chappell all getting the nod ahead of the senior. It was essentially Brand that replaced him, as once Brand sustained a late December foot injury, Roshod went back into the lineup, with Coach K finally settling on a 3 forward front line of McCleod, Battier, and Carrawell. For all practical purposes, Ro' was the center in this lineup. Brand famously talked Roshod up after his foot injury, telling him that it was his time to shine. It appears unlikely that Roshod would have emerged to have the solid senior season that he had without Brand's injury.

Well, like Jeff Capel and Jay Bilas, Roshown McLeod lost his job at the very beginning of his senior season (he only started 1 of the first 10) and then regained it at the end. I hear what you're saying about him maybe not regaining the job if Brand doesn't get hurt, but if it had happened that way then Rowshown would have an earlier example of the Greg Paulus paradigm. And if Seth comes off the bench the first 10 or however many games, then Roshown and Jeff and Jay (or even Greg) might be good examples. If, on the other hand, Seth starts all the early games for which he is healthy, I don't think there's any Duke (under Coach K) precedent for him (as a senior who also started as a junior) losing his starting job in the middle of the year.

[Edouble]

Well, like Jeff Capel and Jay Bilas, Roshown McLeod lost his job at the very beginning of his senior season (he only started 1 of the first 10) and then regained it at the end. I hear what you're saying about him maybe not regaining the job if Brand doesn't get hurt, but if it had happened that way then Rowshown would have an earlier example of the Greg Paulus paradigm. And if Seth comes off the bench the first 10 or however many games, then Roshown and Jeff and Jay (or even Greg) might be good examples. If, on the other hand, Seth starts all the early games for which he is healthy, I don't think there's any Duke (under Coach K) precedent for him (as a senior who also started as a junior) losing his starting job in the middle of the year.

The reason the Roshown (oops!) case is a precedent is because he started the first game. He was the starter. Coach K saw what Brand brought to the table and had to make a change. That's why this case is different than the Greg Paulus situation. Roshown was the starter. He lost his starting spot to a freshman that brought more to the table. If Seth were to lose his job now, the case I bring up would be evidence that this has happened before.

I don't know why the example must take place in the middle of the year. We do have people crying for Rasheed to start now, so I intended to provide an example of how that has gone down before.

[Dukeblue91]

Having also watched the game and thinking the same thing, I'll cosign, Ryan looked disinterested and just down right bad on D today, didn't close out at all, wasn't a defensive presence down low...He looked fine on O but defense was a whole different story

Thank you for that.
That's the problem when you can only look at the score board.

[Cameron]

Put another way, when I said a specific and excellent reason, I meant a reason for starting as opposed to getting starter's minutes (like when K said G performed better as a starter but Jon performed the same whether he started or not). Why would Rasheed's superior defensive skills make more sense at the start of the game than at any other time?

Because it would allow Rasheed to match up in the backcourt with the opposing team's best guard and penetrator the majority of the time, and right from the start. If we could have had Nolan Smith on C.J. McCollum from the onset of our first round tilt with Lehigh last March, I think that would have been optimal. It would have completely changed the tone of the game from the get-go. My other argument is that Seth's skill set as primarily a catch-and-shoot three-point specialist and spurt scorer lends excellently to being utilized as a sixth man. As I said before, ala Bobby Jackson or Jason Terry but with no defense.


Also, Rasheed's defensive acumen is also presumably better than Quinn's or Alex's. Why are you singling out Seth as the guy to sit as opposed to one of the others?

See above for a partial explanation. But in other threads, I think I have also voiced my opinion that Rasheed might eventually become an asset at the point guard position due to his Scheyer-like size, faculty as a defender and ability as an off-the-bounce scorer and facilitator, which he demonstrated exemplarily as a prep. This, of course, depends on how well Quinn serves early on in the season in that role.


Finally, if what you're really saying is Rasheed will ultimately earn more minutes of playing time per game than Seth, that's an entirely different discussion. My guess is that won't happen either (assuming Seth is fully healthy), because Seth's shooting prowess and experience should mean he's on the court as much as he can handle. But arguments like yours that Rasheed is a better defender also have a lot of credence, and I don't think anybody's crystal ball is clear enough to answer that one definitively.

This is probably more of what I am actually trying to say, but have not, because I don't actually think K would ever significantly diminish Curry's role. I think K is fond of Curry as a player and the type of value he brings to the team, and, based on evidence from the past couple of seasons, I don't see K changing his mind on that.

In the end I do think that Seth will play starter's minutes, even if coming off the bench. I am basing part of this off my belief (probably fantasy) that Rasheed will begin to play some serious minutes at point guard at certain points of the season, perhaps in instances at the end of a game where we need both Rasheed and Seth on the floor at the same time -- Rasheed for his defense and Seth for his ability to shoot and make timely free throws. From everything we have heard from K, Quinn is our guy at point right now. I get that. But, as we saw, if only briefly, in yesterday's game against Western Washington, Rasheed is likely going to get some go at the one. And if he does well there, maybe even ample go, which would allow Curry to play in the backcourt with Rasheed without sacrificing our perimeter defense. Those are my main reasons for why I think Seth would still ultimately end up playing big minutes if moved into a non-starting role.

Then again, K could go small at the end of a game and put Rasheed on the floor in place of Murphy and still have Quinn and Seth in the backcourt, although, as others have already hinted at, I really hope that does not become a trend.

[Cameron]

I just want to note that everything I am saying is just me creatively thinking out loud with regard to the lineup. Whether or not Rasheed ever becomes the type of impact player this year that I am so optimistically painting him to be is simply speculation. Yet, I think, fun speculation.

[Kedsy]

The reason the Roshown (oops!) case is a precedent is because he started the first game. He was the starter. Coach K saw what Brand brought to the table and had to make a change. That's why this case is different than the Greg Paulus situation. Roshown was the starter. He lost his starting spot to a freshman that brought more to the table. If Seth were to lose his job now, the case I bring up would be evidence that this has happened before.

I don't know why the example must take place in the middle of the year. We do have people crying for Rasheed to start now, so I intended to provide an example of how that has gone down before.

Yes, I agree, if Seth were to lose his job now, Roshown would be precedent. It just doesn't seem like K is anywhere close to ready to do that at this point. That's why I keep saying the middle of the season. I can't see it happening now unless Seth's injury causes it to happen.

[Acymetric]

Yes, I agree, if Seth were to lose his job now, Roshown would be precedent. It just doesn't seem like K is anywhere close to ready to do that at this point. That's why I keep saying the middle of the season. I can't see it happening now unless Seth's injury causes it to happen.

Has there been any indication that Seth will be ready to go for the first real game?

[Kedsy]

Because it would allow Rasheed to match up in the backcourt with the opposing team's best guard and penetrator the majority of the time, and right from the start.

This would only be true if K used an NBA-style substitution pattern, with a "first unit" and a "second unit." But he's never done that before (that I'm aware of). If Seth is playing 30 mpg at the "2," he's going to be matched up with the other team's SG plenty, no matter what happens when Rasheed is in the game. Assuming Rasheed's minutes are relatively constant (whether he starts or not) I don't think it matters if his defensive matchup happens right from the start or not. But of course that's just my opinion.

[Kedsy]

Has there been any indication that Seth will be ready to go for the first real game?

I have no inside information, but the coaching staff said Seth could have gone if he was needed in the exhibition, but they figured they should play it safe. That suggests he'll play against Kentucky, at least. That said, it would still be possible that his injury would limit his minutes or affect his conditioning, in which case it might make sense to have him come off the bench until he's back to full strength.

[dcar1985]

Has there been any indication that Seth will be ready to go for the first real game?

Can't remember exactly where I heard it but I heard Seth is suffering from shins splints, which require rest to alleviate the pain from overuse...Just my opinion but unless they're super bad to the point where he has like a stress fracture develop Seth should be ready to go during the games that actually count.

[Cameron]

This would only be true if K used an NBA-style substitution pattern, with a "first unit" and a "second unit." But he's never done that before (that I'm aware of). If Seth is playing 30 mpg at the "2," he's going to be matched up with the other team's SG plenty, no matter what happens when Rasheed is in the game. Assuming Rasheed's minutes are relatively constant (whether he starts or not) I don't think it matters if his defensive matchup happens right from the start or not. But of course that's just my opinion.

Good points. But it would definitely matter for the first four or five minutes of the game (before the first TV timeout and typical first substitutions). That's pretty much what I was getting at (i.e. having Rasheed on the best perimeter player from the tip in order to try and prevent said player from going off and getting in a rhythm early.) I guess it's just a matter of opinion.

[jimsumner]

The reason the Roshown (oops!) case is a precedent is because he started the first game. He was the starter. Coach K saw what Brand brought to the table and had to make a change. That's why this case is different than the Greg Paulus situation. Roshown was the starter. He lost his starting spot to a freshman that brought more to the table. If Seth were to lose his job now, the case I bring up would be evidence that this has happened before.

I don't know why the example must take place in the middle of the year. We do have people crying for Rasheed to start now, so I intended to provide an example of how that has gone down before.

Elton Brand started every game of his freshman season until his foot injury.

McLeod lost his starting job to Battier. Not Brand.

[Cameron]

Nobody here is "crying" for Rasheed to start over Seth. A few of us are simply pointing out the benefits of moving Rasheed into the lineup if he does in fact prove ready for the role. And on the flip side, the benefits that Seth could provide as a sixth man.

Truth be told, I hope Seth gets well quickly, re-enters the lineup, demonstrates improved defense, scores with abandon and becomes First Team All-ACC. That's what I hope. But nobody is crying. Don't be ridiculous.

[licc85]

I don't think we should make too many assumptions on the rotation based on 1 preseason game, especially with 2 of our top 8 guys registering a DNP. (Coach K actually said Marshall was a top 6 guy on the team, which I'm not totally sure I agree with)

What I think we can take from the game is that Rasheed is going to be a MAJOR factor for this team. He brings many things to the table that none of our other guys have in one package. He's quick, athletic, aggressive, smart, and he has a terrific level of skill and poise. He's also a multi-dimensional threat on offense. He's quick enough, with good enough handle to take the ball off the dribble, and then he's big enough to finish at the rim through contact, and then he's also a great shooter. Nobody else on the team can do all those things. He's going to have some ups and some downs, but I believe his ceiling is that he is the best guard on the team. (Maybe not necessarily this year, but it is very possible)

I don't think the Greg Paulus/Elliot Williams analogy is really all that similar to this situation. Seth and Greg aren't really the same player. Seth is clearly a 2-guard while Greg was very much a 1. They were somewhat similar in that both of them are/were excellent long range shooters, but somewhat slow-footed and have/had trouble defending against superior athletes, but I still think their roles with their respective teams were very different.

When Elliot Williams supplanted Greg in the starting lineup, it was almost purely for defensive reasons. Elliot was far from being the best guard on the team that year, he was just the best option for guarding opposing ball handler. He was not known as a dynamic scorer or shooter as a freshman, and yet he still was inserted in favor of his defensive abilities. Rasheed, on the other hand, has those same defensive qualities, as well as an excellent package of skills on offense. I think with some development, he's going to just become a superior player. I'm not saying "bench Curry," but if (and that's definitely an IF) Rasheed continues to prove that he is the best guard on the team, then there's no reason he shouldn't start, even if that means either Quinn or Seth coming off the bench.

As for the other players, I think Amile actually showed me something in this game, scoring in double digits and playing some great D. He really has some long arms. He also gets some points for hustle and energy, but he showed an ability to use those things effectively, unlike Josh, who just seems to expend energy for no reason sometimes . . . . I think Amile will most definitely be a contributor and maybe pass Josh on the depth chart. Mason and Ryan were both great, hopefully those two guys can be counted on night in and night out to be consistent on offense, because we need them to be. They combined for several turnovers though, so that's something they need to be mindful of. However, Mason looks like he's improved his free throw shooting, which I'm pretty excited about. Quinn played okay, but he had 6 turnovers. He's capable of doing better than that. Wasn't he leading the nation in A/T ratio at one point last year?

All that said, it was 1 game, and it wasn't against top notch competition. W. Washington is a well coached and mature team, but they ain't UK or NC State. It's too hard to predict what our young guys will do from game to game. Rasheed could very well have a horrible game next time out and everyone will be tempering their expectations. No matter what happens, we have plenty of pieces to work with this year, and it should be fun to watch. I just hope our injured guys get back soon so we can see the team at full strength. Go Duke.

[Cameron]

licc85:

Great post. I think you have quite excellently captured what makes Rasheed such a dynamic force.

As for the Greg and Seth "comparison", I agree that Greg and Seth are not all that similar as players in terms of style. But that was never my point. I brought up the Greg Paulus situation because some here seemed to be making the argument that because Seth is our best shooter and a "senior leader," it means that he is going to be in the starting lineup. As we saw with what happened to Greg, who completely vanished from the lineup by March of 2009 despite being our best shooter and a "senior leader" (about three games into the month and with still no sign of Greg, I wanted to call 9-1-1 and report a kidnapping), things don't always turn out the way they might at first seem. Even experienced veterans with a great deal of talent can be supplanted by younger players with a more gifted all-around skill set.

[ice-9]

I don't think it's that complicated. If the team is better with Rasheed starting and Seth being the sixth man, then that's what Coach K will do. He's shown a willingness to make that kind of decision. If the team is better with Seth starting and Rasheed coming off the bench, then that's what he's also going to do.

If Seth self-destructs psychologically because he can't handle the sixth man role, then we're probably worse off as a whole and Coach K will probably stick with Seth as a starter. It's not as if the gap between Seth and Rasheed will be night and day anyway, no matter which is "better" (though if it was it would make one intriguing season).

Greg and Scheyer have the maturity to handle coming off the bench, and so when the team is better off when they do that's what happened.

[sagegrouse]

When Elliot Williams supplanted Greg in the starting lineup, it was almost purely for defensive reasons. Elliot was far from being the best guard on the team that year, he was just the best option for guarding opposing ball handler. He was not known as a dynamic scorer or shooter as a freshman, and yet he still was inserted in favor of his defensive abilities.

Not exactly. Greg Paulus was replaced in the starting lineup at point guard by Jon Scheyer, who had come off the bench the preceding year. Neither Greg nor Elliot Williams were starters for most of the season. The starters that year for the first two-thirds of the season were -- TA-DA -- Singler, Lance Thomas, Gerald Henderson, Nolan and Scheyer.

Elliot replaced Nolan Smith as a starter against St. John's on February 19 and stayed there the rest of the year. The one exception was a "message" game against FSU on March 5, following a lackluster win at VT, when Greg and Marty Pocius started. Also, as everyone remembers, Nolan went down against Maryland on February 25, as a result of a Dave Neal pick, and missed the final three regular season games.

As I pointed out above, Paulus got only five starts in 2009.

sagegrouse

[NSDukeFan]

Not exactly. Greg Paulus was replaced in the starting lineup at point guard by Jon Scheyer, who had come off the bench the preceding year. Neither Greg nor Elliot Williams were starters for most of the season. The starters that year for the first two-thirds of the season were -- TA-DA -- Singler, Lance Thomas, Gerald Henderson, Nolan and Scheyer.

Elliot replaced Nolan Smith as a starter against St. John's on February 19 and stayed there the rest of the year. The one exception was a "message" game against FSU on March 5, following a lackluster win at VT, when Greg and Marty Pocius started. Also, as everyone remembers, Nolan went down against Maryland on February 25, as a result of a Dave Neal pick, and missed the final three regular season games.

As I pointed out above, Paulus got only five starts in 2009.

sagegrouse

I believe the Dave Neal pick resulted in a message from G. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ckLHEUkNOgE)

[Billy Dat]

Changing the subject...

I was interested to see how the offense was going to run through Mason. Interestingly, they had him set up on most possessions in the foul line extended area, sort of the elbow but a little beneath the foul line. The defender was allowing him to catch it there and the passer was often screening away. Mason would hit the guard coming off the screen and come around a baseline screen himself and set up on the opposite low block. Often the ball would make it back to him in two passes - from the man he passed to, back to the original screening guard, and then to Mason on the block. I liked the motion because it allowed for the guards to make dribble drive decisions. The one portion that didn't look so good, though, was when the defense would back way off Mason on the original catch. At least twice he turned and launched two of the ugliest 15 footers I have seen in a while, just really tentative and unsure...and short. It made me remember the off fact that, during the title season, freshman Mason was known to occasionally put up a 3.

I don't recall much about Mason and Ryan working together on offense.

As for Ryan's play, I thought K's post game quotes were informative:
"Ryan … we had a scrimmage on Thursday. We do some stuff for the Children’s Hospital and that. We had our ACC officials in and Ryan was 3-for-21 and didn’t hit a jump shot, shot about three air balls. So again you all don’t see that, but me coming into today’s game saying, ‘Ok, where are we going with this?’ Instead I thought he did a real good job. That’s the sign of real good upperclassmen.”

While the Curry/Sheed debate rages on, I think K's quotes are, again, instructive:

On Rasheed Sulaimon:
“He (Sheed) had an unbelievable first half and it started off with the first play. We called a certain thing and he made a read that was the opposite of what the play was, but it was the right read. And for a freshman on his first play, to have the guts to make a read and follow his instincts, it’s impressive for me. I do think with Seth [Curry] being out for practice Rasheed’s been able to play like a starting position. That’s helped him. I think it’s moved him along further. The limited numbers have helped our young guys move forward more. I just wish we had more numbers. I wish we were healthy.”

Point being that Curry's injury has been a positive in terms of Sheed's development. Having watched the game, though, we have nothing approaching concrete evidence that Sheed can run the point in a meaningful way. He barely got any PG reps.

[roywhite]

Changing the subject...

I was interested to see how the offense was going to run through Mason. Interestingly, they had him set up on most possessions in the foul line extended area, sort of the elbow but a little beneath the foul line. The defender was allowing him to catch it there and the passer was often screening away. Mason would hit the guard coming off the screen and come around a baseline screen himself and set up on the opposite low block. Often the ball would make it back to him in two passes - from the man he passed to, back to the original screening guard, and then to Mason on the block. I liked the motion because it allowed for the guards to make dribble drive decisions. The one portion that didn't look so good, though, was when the defense would back way off Mason on the original catch. At least twice he turned and launched two of the ugliest 15 footers I have seen in a while, just really tentative and unsure...and short. It made me remember the off fact that, during the title season, freshman Mason was known to occasionally put up a 3.

I don't recall much about Mason and Ryan working together on offense.

As for Ryan's play, I thought K's post game quotes were informative:
"Ryan … we had a scrimmage on Thursday. We do some stuff for the Children’s Hospital and that. We had our ACC officials in and Ryan was 3-for-21 and didn’t hit a jump shot, shot about three air balls. So again you all don’t see that, but me coming into today’s game saying, ‘Ok, where are we going with this?’ Instead I thought he did a real good job. That’s the sign of real good upperclassmen.”

While the Curry/Sheed debate rages on, I think K's quotes are, again, instructive:

On Rasheed Sulaimon:
“He (Sheed) had an unbelievable first half and it started off with the first play. We called a certain thing and he made a read that was the opposite of what the play was, but it was the right read. And for a freshman on his first play, to have the guts to make a read and follow his instincts, it’s impressive for me. I do think with Seth [Curry] being out for practice Rasheed’s been able to play like a starting position. That’s helped him. I think it’s moved him along further. The limited numbers have helped our young guys move forward more. I just wish we had more numbers. I wish we were healthy.”

Point being that Curry's injury has been a positive in terms of Sheed's development. Having watched the game, though, we have nothing approaching concrete evidence that Sheed can run the point in a meaningful way. He barely got any PG reps.

Didn't see the game, so the comments and analysis from you and others are most welcome.

Sure wish Mason could shoot a reliable 10 to 15 foot jump shot; would pose a real problem to opposing defenses, not to mention increasing his production and appeal to pro scouts. Of course, the 15-foot shot I'd like most for him to hit regularly is from the free throw line; hoping that better prodction there late last year and an off-season of work gets him somewhere near 70% from the line. Not only would that mean more points, but enable him to be in late game situations and not be a liability from the line.

Love hearing K's comments about Sheed:
1. Sounds like Sheed has a good feel for the game and played well
2. Reminds us that K encourages initiative on offense; must learn and follow the system on defense, but he wants to see guys feel free to make plays on offense.

[DukieInBrasil]

Didn't see the game, so the comments and analysis from you and others are most welcome.

Sure wish Mason could shoot a reliable 10 to 15 foot jump shot; would pose a real problem to opposing defenses, not to mention increasing his production and appeal to pro scouts. Of course, the 15-foot shot I'd like most for him to hit regularly is from the free throw line; hoping that better prodction there late last year and an off-season of work gets him somewhere near 70% from the line. Not only would that mean more points, but enable him to be in late game situations and not be a liability from the line.

Love hearing K's comments about Sheed:
1. Sounds like Sheed has a good feel for the game and played well
2. Reminds us that K encourages initiative on offense; must learn and follow the system on defense, but he wants to see guys feel free to make plays on offense.

Mason shot 6-8 (75%) from the line in the game, and actually finished the year last year shooting roughly 75% through the last 10 or 12 games, bringing his season average up to just over 50%. All signs indicate that he's made a substantial improvement there.

Alex Murphy, otoh, may be a cause for concern at the stripe, he was 0-2 on Saturday, shot poorly in the few pre-season games last year on FTs, and from all accounts struggled mightily on FTs for Finland over the summer.

[uh_no]

Mason shot 6-8 (75%) from the line in the game, and actually finished the year last year shooting roughly 75% through the last 10 or 12 games, bringing his season average up to just over 50%. All signs indicate that he's made a substantial improvement there.

Alex Murphy, otoh, may be a cause for concern at the stripe, he was 0-2 on Saturday, shot poorly in the few pre-season games last year on FTs, and from all accounts struggled mightily on FTs for Finland over the summer.

and one of his misses was an in and out.....i'll count that as a "good" miss....only one of eight did he clank off the front of the rim with a line drive fastball

[Billy Dat]

Alex Murphy, otoh, may be a cause for concern at the stripe, he was 0-2 on Saturday, shot poorly in the few pre-season games last year on FTs, and from all accounts struggled mightily on FTs for Finland over the summer.

This is no attempt to stoke a Murphy v Amile debate, but watching the two in the WWU game reminded me of a recent Battier quote about Lebron:

"You know what? LeBron could have played at Duke, and I don't say that about a lot of guys," Battier said with a laugh. "There are a lot of All-Stars who couldn't have played at Duke. LeBron is one of the few All-Stars who could have played there and survived. You have to be mentally tough. You have to know the game -- you can't be some idiot out there, some dummy running around. You have to play for the team and be selfless. Those are all LeBron James qualities."

Ignoring the "selfless" part, because both, in limited samples, seem to be selfless players, I focus on the "know the game" part. Alex has the huge advantage of being part of the program for a full year. Amile, on the other hand, was playing really free and loose, putting that length to good use swatting shots and getting his hands on all kinds of rebounds. I would have guessed that Amile would have better stats in those areas, but the two were nearly identical…19 minutes, 3-4 boards, 2 blocks, 1 steal. Amile had many more points. Having both in the rotation would be great because if their production is similar but the "look" they give us is different, then the styles we can play will be that much more varied. Let's hope Amile proves to be someone who can pick up the system quickly enough to keep earning minutes. Many suspected that's what kept Mike Gbinije from contributing more, right?

[Matches]

And I can't think of a single player at Duke who was the primary starter his entire junior year and held the job at the beginning of his senior year who then lost his starting status in the middle of his senior season. And if it's never happened before, it would seem the odds are heavily against it happening now.



Greg Newton. Not comparing him to Curry in ANY way, but there is precedent... ultimately K will play the guys who give the team the best chance to win. Hard to imagine Curry not meeting that criteria, but nothing is guaranteed.

[OldPhiKap]

Greg Newton. Not comparing him to Curry in ANY way, but there is precedent... ultimately K will play the guys who give the team the best chance to win. Hard to imagine Curry not meeting that criteria, but nothing is guaranteed.

I wanted to highlight that clause, because it seems that some (not Matches) assume that Curry has not lifted his game over the summer or that he isn't starting material in the first place. Seth started in 32 games last year, and was second only to Austin in minutes played and average points scored. Seth led the team in steals per game and assists per game. Mix that with a fourth year in the system, and the typical "senior step-up" our program produces, and I would expect Seth to get the vast majority of starts if health permits.

I am very excited about Rasheed. I am very excited to have Seth's leadership and skills as well. If Rasheed has the skills to dislodge Seth, then practice should be a war.

[Kedsy]

Greg Newton. Not comparing him to Curry in ANY way, but there is precedent... ultimately K will play the guys who give the team the best chance to win. Hard to imagine Curry not meeting that criteria, but nothing is guaranteed.

Good one. I recall Newton had some sort of academic issues, but I don't have any idea when they happened. So I just don't remember -- did those academic issues have anything to do with his mid-season benching or was it purely a basketball decision?

[Sir Stealth]

Good one. I recall Newton had some sort of academic issues, but I don't have any idea when they happened. So I just don't remember -- did those academic issues have anything to do with his mid-season benching or was it purely a basketball decision?

I think that overall attitude is probably the best explanation. It's hard to separate that from either basketball or academics. I don't see that as analogous to any of the other examples listed either.

[Cameron]

I wanted to highlight that clause, because it seems that some (not Matches) assume that Curry has not lifted his game over the summer or that he isn't starting material in the first place. Seth started in 32 games last year, and was second only to Austin in minutes played and average points scored. Seth led the team in steals per game and assists per game. Mix that with a fourth year in the system, and the typical "senior step-up" our program produces, and I would expect Seth to get the vast majority of starts if health permits.

I am very excited about Rasheed. I am very excited to have Seth's leadership and skills as well. If Rasheed has the skills to dislodge Seth, then practice should be a war.

I want to preface this post by saying that I am a Greg Paulus fan. Ha.

Greg started in 33 games as a junior, and was fourth in overall minutes played (although just 31 minutes shy of being in the No. 2 spot, held by Kyle Singler). He led the team in 3-point shooting (both makes and percentage), assists average and was second in steals per game by just a tenth of a point. He hit more than three "3s" 15 times and more than four "3s" 8 times. Greg nailed six triples alone on the road in Chapel Hill to lead Duke to a victory in the Dean Dome over the No. 3 Tar Heels. Simply put, we have no chance without Greg in that game. He was our team leader that season, and our most clutch performer down the stretch. Mix that in with a fourth year in the system, and the typical "senior step-up" our program produces, and why did Greg get dealt such a bad hand?

This is by no means directly attributed to you, OldPhilKap. And, looking back, the decision to start Jon and Nolan (and later Elliot) over Greg in the backcourt makes sense. Jon turned out to be a better fit at point guard (and that would never prove more true than on a Monday night in Indianapolis a year later), and Nolan and Elliot were quicker, more athletic players with great versatility and better defense. Maybe I am just blinded by the fact that Greg is one of my top three favorite Blue Devils of all-time (along with Chris Duhon and J.J. Redick), but I just don't understand what happened.

[Matches]

Good one. I recall Newton had some sort of academic issues, but I don't have any idea when they happened. So I just don't remember -- did those academic issues have anything to do with his mid-season benching or was it purely a basketball decision?

Newton had some academic issues (which resulted in him... uh... leaving the university for part of a semester) during his sophomore season (the 1995 team). He returned in 1996 and was a full-time starter as a junior. I've no idea how his grades were during his senior season but his removal from the lineup was performance-and-attitude-based.

[Matches]

I want to preface this post by saying that I am a Greg Paulus fan. Ha.

Greg started in 33 games as a junior, and was fourth in overall minutes played (although just 31 minutes shy of being in the No. 2 spot, held by Kyle Singler). He led the team in 3-point shooting (both makes and percentage), assists average and was second in steals per game by just a tenth of a point. He hit more than three "3s" 15 times and more than four "3s" 8 times. Greg nailed six triples alone on the road in Chapel Hill to lead Duke to a victory in the Dean Dome over the No. 3 Tar Heels. Simply put, we have no chance without Greg in that game. He was our team leader that season, and our most clutch performer down the stretch. Mix that in with a fourth year in the system, and the typical "senior step-up" our program produces, and why did Greg get dealt such a bad hand?

This is by no means directly attributed to you, OldPhilKap. And, looking back, the decision to start Jon and Nolan (and later Elliot) over Greg in the backcourt makes sense. Jon turned out to be a better fit at point guard (and that would never prove more true than on a Monday night in Indianapolis a year later), and Nolan and Elliot were quicker, more athletic players with great versatility and better defense. Maybe I am just blinded by the fact that Greg is one of my top three favorite Blue Devils of all-time (along with Chris Duhon and J.J. Redick), but I just don't understand what happened.

I think he was just surpassed by better players, and never found a groove coming off the bench. I never really saw Paulus as a team leader despite the trumpeting he got from others including, of course, the folks who run this site. At his best, he was an above-average ACC guard, a reliable jumpshooter, pretty good passer, and below-average defender, but I never really saw any evidence that other players were following his lead on the court, even when he was playing PG.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Paulus' best game as a senior was the Miami game where he replaced Nolan in the starting lineup. He just always seemed to play better in a starting role - but it made no sense to leave him in that role given Scheyer's emergence as a PG and Elliot's at SG. Coming off the bench and playing in short spurts never really seemed to suit Paulus' game, and so he slid further down the bench.

[DukieInBrasil]

Can we get back to talking about the game that actually took place 2 days ago rather than starting/benching players 4 years ago?

[Billy Dat]

Can we get back to talking about the game that actually took place 2 days ago rather than starting/benching players 4 years ago?

I think the problem is that very few people actually got to watch it - I again plug GoDuke.com's service which is well worth $10 for a month being able to watch the exhibition games. You can cancel anytime.

[mo.st.dukie]

I think the problem is that very few people actually got to watch it - I again plug GoDuke.com's service which is well worth $10 for a month being able to watch the exhibition games. You can cancel anytime.

And the fact that it was an exhibition game against a Division II school. Not a whole lot to take away from it, can't really break the game down too much because of the competition and the fact it was the first time this group went live.

And yes, goduke.com is awesome although I was disappointed with the problems the live video feed had, I had to watch it on replay later in the day.

[Cameron]

I think he was just surpassed by better players, and never found a groove coming off the bench. I never really saw Paulus as a team leader despite the trumpeting he got from others including, of course, the folks who run this site. At his best, he was an above-average ACC guard, a reliable jumpshooter, pretty good passer, and below-average defender, but I never really saw any evidence that other players were following his lead on the court, even when he was playing PG.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Paulus' best game as a senior was the Miami game where he replaced Nolan in the starting lineup. He just always seemed to play better in a starting role - but it made no sense to leave him in that role given Scheyer's emergence as a PG and Elliot's at SG. Coming off the bench and playing in short spurts never really seemed to suit Paulus' game, and so he slid further down the bench.

I agree with the majority of your post. Excellent point about Greg just not being able to play well in short spurts. After three years of starting as the point guard at Duke University, and dishing to guys like J.J. Redick and Shelden Williams, he just never seemed to be able to adapt to a reserve role. Yet, unlike some guys (nobody in particular, just in general), Greg never demonstrated any type of attitude that would indicate he was upset by being on the bench. He took it all in stride for the betterment of the team, and tried to bring his best in any capacity that he could. That's a credit to the kid's character.

But I would say that Greg was more than just a reliable jump shooter. He was a very good three-point shooter, one of the best at Duke during the last decade. And Coach K made mention several times during the 2007-08 season that Greg was the team's leader.


Can we get back to talking about the game that actually took place 2 days ago rather than starting/benching players 4 years ago?


I always forget that the Internet is serious business. Just as a point of future reference: These threads are always going to branch in different directions. That's just a byproduct of discussion. While I agree that it's easier to read through a thread when the topic at hand is kept within close reach, if another discussion related to the one already being had suddenly arises, read around it.

As for the information about the Western Washington game, a lot of good stuff here. Thanks to those who were able to watch.

[NSDukeFan]

I think he was just surpassed by better players, and never found a groove coming off the bench. I never really saw Paulus as a team leader despite the trumpeting he got from others including, of course, the folks who run this site. At his best, he was an above-average ACC guard, a reliable jumpshooter, pretty good passer, and below-average defender, but I never really saw any evidence that other players were following his lead on the court, even when he was playing PG.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Paulus' best game as a senior was the Miami game where he replaced Nolan in the starting lineup. He just always seemed to play better in a starting role - but it made no sense to leave him in that role given Scheyer's emergence as a PG and Elliot's at SG. Coming off the bench and playing in short spurts never really seemed to suit Paulus' game, and so he slid further down the bench.

I was also a huge Paulus fan and thought there were some injury issues leading into his senior season when Nolan overtook him as the starter. My impression (may not be correct) and recollection (definitely may not be correct) were that his injuries (feet?) didn't help his quickness that year and he didn't have the full summer to prepare. I was also disappointed that a former all-ACC player didn't get nearly as much playing time in his senior year, but also thought he handled his time on the bench much as Kyrie did, by being the best cheerleader when he wasn't out on the floor.

[mo.st.dukie]

I was also a huge Paulus fan and thought there were some injury issues leading into his senior season when Nolan overtook him as the starter. My impression (may not be correct) and recollection (definitely may not be correct) were that his injuries (feet?) didn't help his quickness that year and he didn't have the full summer to prepare.


Coach K recently compared Quinn's knee injury leading into his freshman year with Greg's injury leading into his senior year. The injuries that both suffered impacted their ability to prepare for the upcoming season. This is why the Curry/Paulus situations are so similar. Both had very similar junior seasons and both suffered injuries leading into their senior season. We don't know the full extent of Seth's injury but there have been comments by K that the injury could be bothersome for the entire season.

[NSDukeFan]

Because I just watched the highlights, and I saw spitting images of both Nolan and Kyle.

That makes me very, very happy.

I just watched the highlights now and I am looking forward to watching Kyle (2.0, and yes I know he is his own player, but the mop top, size, skill taking the ball to the hoop, athleticism, ability to block shots defensively remind me of one of my favorite all-time Dukies) for another four years.

[uh_no]

I just watched the highlights now and I am looking forward to watching Kyle (2.0, and yes I know he is his own player, but the mop top, size, skill taking the ball to the hoop, athleticism, ability to block shots defensively remind me of one of my favorite all-time Dukies) for another four years.

their numbers are eerily close as well :)

[Edouble]

Elton Brand started every game of his freshman season until his foot injury.

McLeod lost his starting job to Battier. Not Brand.

Well, by that logic, McLeod lost his starting job to Mike Chappell, as Brand, Battier, and McLeod started in game 1, Brand, Battier, and Chappell started game 2.

I was on campus at the the time, and the general consensus, around campus and in The Chronicle, was the Brand took McLeod's starting spot. This is based on the fact that both players played center for us. McLeod ended his junior year as our starting center. He was out as a starter, after one game, when Brand proved to be the better player. This old Chronicle article relays that sentiment.

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/mcleod-slowly-adjusts-life-nba-rookie

[jimrowe0]

Let’s get back on the subject of the exhibition. After finally getting to watch the game last night, I thought this article did a good job of summarizing each player.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1387274-duke-blue-devils-vs-western-washington-vikings-player-grades

Ryan Kelly and Sulaimon had outstanding in the games. Ryan's game looked really good. He could easily lead the team in scoring this year as he has balanced his game out. He used the shot fake well to get into the lane. Once in the lane he didn't force it and he took what the defense gave him, with a balance of attacking the basket, taking the short pull-up jumper, or making a good pass if he got blocked off. If he continues to play this well, he could be the best player on the team.

Sulaimon had a great game as well. Just like Ryan, he let the game come to him. He had nice shot selection and was able to get hot early. The thing that impressed me the most is that when Sulaimon got in the lane he kept is head up looking for the pass if the lane wasn't open. He had a great game, but I'm certainly not ready to jump on the bandwagon just yet. Seth should start because he has earned it and the kid is an assassin. If he continues to become a defensively liability, then we may see more of Sulaimon. I think Sulaimon will be a great six man for this year’s team.

Amile Jefferson is going to be a good player for us THIS year. The thing about Amile is he is a high energy player. He seems to give the team a boost when he is in the game (plays the game with emotion). Amile really picked his spots and has an excellent ability to find the basket. He also has a 7'1" wingspan, if he can improve his footwork on the defensive end he may be taking the starting spot from Alex. If there is any position battle which should be talking about it is the one.

Cook didn't have a good game. He was careless with the ball and didn't shoot it well. It’s one game, so we will just have to wait and see. However, on a positive note he defense looked very much improved.

Mason had an ok game. The key positive is that his free throws looked much improved. The main negative is that his short jumper was ugly (not even close on several occasions). He also still needs to finish better around the rim. He is going to be a rebound machine this year and should easily average in the double digits.

Alex did some little things, but overall he had a subpar game. Again its one game, so let’s give him the a little leeway.

Tyler did what he always does, provided defense and didn't turn the ball over.

Hairston looked more fit, but still isn't going to play much unless we get in foul trouble.

[Cameron]

Well, by that logic, McLeod lost his starting job to Mike Chappell, as Brand, Battier, and McLeod started in game 1, Brand, Battier, and Chappell started game 2.

And then a few games after that, Chappell left Duke and went on to host that hilarious TV show on Comedy Central.


Cook didn't have a good game. He was careless with the ball and didn't shoot it well. It’s one game, so we will just have to wait and see. However, on a positive note he defense looked very much improved.

The general consensus seems to be that Cook, while I am sure he was giving it his all against Western Washington, appeared to be just sort of sufficiently performing the motions of a point guard; not really impressing anyone too much with remarkable feats of playmaking, but also not inciting panic that would indicate we need to “test drive” other options just yet. With last Saturday’s exhibition being the first organized game our current crop of guys has ever played in together against another team, and Quinn really just starting to get re-acclimated to full-speed gameplay after an injury-plagued freshman campaign, his modest performance was probably to be expected.

Those factors aside, for you or anyone who watched, I am curious about two general aspects of Quinn’s game. The first being defense. How’d he look? Did he appear improved from a year ago with regard to the ability to stay in front of his man and apply the kind of steady on-ball pressure required of a top-level point guard? After the game, Coach K noted that Western Washington’s point guard, at the age of 25, was very experienced and a Division I quality player. So it sounds like it was a great early challenge for Quinn.

Also, when Quinn was in the game, was there a noticeable difference in pace from last year? Did he attempt to regularly push the ball up the floor in an attempt to create points on the break? There were flashes of this type of play from Cook last year, but he was obviously somewhat limited in what he could do. He already exhibits excellent vision of the court, so if he can eventually perfect the art of operating in transition, I think we’ll be very good.

[JNort]

I had to watch it on replay later in the day.

Do all the games stay up on the website all year to replay?

[Steven43]

[QUOTE=roywhite;600548]Didn't see the game, so the comments and analysis from you and others are most welcome.

Sure wish Mason could shoot a reliable 10 to 15 foot jump shot


You know, Roy, I can't remember the last time I saw Mason shoot from the outside. Maybe he has taken outside shots when I wasn't watching or something. What's strange is that one of his supposed strengths prior to enrolling at Duke was his midrange game. That seems almost unthinkable now.

[jimrowe0]

Do all the games stay up on the website all year to replay?

Yes they posted for more than one year if I recall. I thought I remember seeing some games for 2010 in the list of archived videos.

[kmspeaks]

Let’s get back on the subject of the exhibition. After finally getting to watch the game last night, I thought this article did a good job of summarizing each player.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1387274-duke-blue-devils-vs-western-washington-vikings-player-grades



Thanks for the link. I'm curious as to what others think about Smith's statement on Josh,

But six points and five rebounds isn’t the improved Josh Hairston Duke fans were hoping for. It was a solid contribution, but it’s frustrating that this is probably Hairston’s ceiling.

Are Duke fans really expecting Josh to be anything more than a sort of post player version of Tyler Thornton? Rebounding and defensive energy are what I want out of Josh. Any points he scores are gravy.

[Dukehky]

Thanks for the link. I'm curious as to what others think about Smith's statement on Josh,


Are Duke fans really expecting Josh to be anything more than a sort of post player version of Tyler Thornton? Rebounding and defensive energy are what I want out of Josh. Any points he scores are gravy.

He hasn't shown the ability to rebound with the big boys in the ACC, and his defensive energy is great up until he gets burned on the perimeter because he calls a switch on ball screens every time and ends up on a guard. He is also barely 6'6, I know he's listed at bigger than that, but if you've seen him, he's on the shorter side, so he can't really handle bigs in the post. That was literally the most annoying thing from the Duke basketball team last year. Hairston clapping at the top of the key while guarding a small quick player, then getting torched.

I don't see much of a role for him on this team outside of emergency situations due to injury or foul trouble.

[OldPhiKap]

He hasn't shown the ability to rebound with the big boys in the ACC, and his defensive energy is great up until he gets burned on the perimeter because he calls a switch on ball screens every time and ends up on a guard. He is also barely 6'6, I know he's listed at bigger than that, but if you've seen him, he's on the shorter side, so he can't really handle bigs in the post. That was literally the most annoying thing from the Duke basketball team last year. Hairston clapping at the top of the key while guarding a small quick player, then getting torched.

I don't see much of a role for him on this team outside of emergency situations due to injury or foul trouble.

I think it is possible that he has raised his game since last year. It is way early to relegate him to such a small role, IMO.

And if I was going to make a list of perimeter defensive woes from last year, Jiggy would not make the top three.

I expect a greater role than he had last year, and I expect that he has improved in several areas of his game. He will certainly have to fight for minutes, and if he brings it in practice they will come.

[NSDukeFan]

I think it is possible that he has raised his game since last year. It is way early to relegate him to such a small role, IMO.

And if I was going to make a list of perimeter defensive woes from last year, Jiggy would not make the top three.

I expect a greater role than he had last year, and I expect that he has improved in several areas of his game. He will certainly have to fight for minutes, and if he brings it in practice they will come.

I'm also not ready to relegate Josh to mop-up or energy minutes for the next two years. It might be frustrating for lots of people if their ceilings were what they had achieved to the end of their sophomore years.

[Bluedog]

Thanks for the link. I'm curious as to what others think about Smith's statement on Josh,

Are Duke fans really expecting Josh to be anything more than a sort of post player version of Tyler Thornton? Rebounding and defensive energy are what I want out of Josh. Any points he scores are gravy.


He hasn't shown the ability to rebound with the big boys in the ACC, and his defensive energy is great up until he gets burned on the perimeter because he calls a switch on ball screens every time and ends up on a guard. He is also barely 6'6, I know he's listed at bigger than that, but if you've seen him, he's on the shorter side, so he can't really handle bigs in the post. That was literally the most annoying thing from the Duke basketball team last year. Hairston clapping at the top of the key while guarding a small quick player, then getting torched.

I don't see much of a role for him on this team outside of emergency situations due to injury or foul trouble.


I think it is possible that he has raised his game since last year. It is way early to relegate him to such a small role, IMO.

And if I was going to make a list of perimeter defensive woes from last year, Jiggy would not make the top three.

I expect a greater role than he had last year, and I expect that he has improved in several areas of his game. He will certainly have to fight for minutes, and if he brings it in practice they will come.

Josh apparently worked really hard this summer to get into shape with Kyrie (and Tyler) in Cleveland. He realizes that he played a minimal role last year and is hoping to contribute more - and is working hard for it. It's certainly possible that he's improved since last season. As Josh explained (perhaps this was already linked earlier):


“This is the first time in three years that I’m actually in shape. That’s one thing that’s really been my Achilles’ heel—there was no way for me to get in shape,” Hairston said. “I would never be in shape and honestly Coach couldn’t put me on the floor because I could only run up and down the floor a couple times here and there and I’d be tired. This is the first time I feel like I’m actually in game shape.”
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/kyrie-irving-workout-plan

[timmy c]

He hasn't shown the ability to rebound with the big boys in the ACC, and his defensive energy is great up until he gets burned on the perimeter because he calls a switch on ball screens every time and ends up on a guard. He is also barely 6'6, I know he's listed at bigger than that, but if you've seen him, he's on the shorter side, so he can't really handle bigs in the post. That was literally the most annoying thing from the Duke basketball team last year. Hairston clapping at the top of the key while guarding a small quick player, then getting torched.

I don't see much of a role for him on this team outside of emergency situations due to injury or foul trouble.

I probably offered a similar critique of Lance Thomas after his sophmore season. Boy, was i wrong about him. We will see if you're right about Josh.

[Leelee902]

I was at the game court side and I think people here are just looking at the numbers for josh and not realizing just from that that he played pretty well. He has trimmed up, played tough, hit some nice jumpers, and you are crazy if you are saying he isn't 6'6". Standing beside Kelly he looked to be only about 2 inches shorter, so he is a solid 6'7" if not taller (which I believe he is). So stop hating because josh is important to this team! He may not be a starter, but I felt a lot better about him coming in and being a good reserve after watching this game. Every team needs a Dave mcclure, lance Thomas, etc etc.

[sagegrouse]

He hasn't shown the ability to rebound with the big boys in the ACC, and his defensive energy is great up until he gets burned on the perimeter because he calls a switch on ball screens every time and ends up on a guard. He is also barely 6'6, I know he's listed at bigger than that, but if you've seen him, he's on the shorter side, so he can't really handle bigs in the post. That was literally the most annoying thing from the Duke basketball team last year. Hairston clapping at the top of the key while guarding a small quick player, then getting torched.

I don't see much of a role for him on this team outside of emergency situations due to injury or foul trouble.

I think Josh will continue to improve and earn minutes on the floor. He had one rebound for every six minutes on the floor, not that far below Kelly altho' well below Los Plumlees.

Josh has enough size, energy and skills to make a contribution. Let's see how he develops his role this year.

sage
'The most undervalued asset on any college hoops team is the guy that sat on the bench the previous year. All attention goes to the new players -- many of whom are destined to ........... sit on the bench'

[jimsumner]

[QUOTE=roywhite;600548]Didn't see the game, so the comments and analysis from you and others are most welcome.

Sure wish Mason could shoot a reliable 10 to 15 foot jump shot.

It's very reliable.

It always misses.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)

[Gewebe14]

[QUOTE=Steven43;600743]

It's very reliable.

It always misses.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)

Yeah, remember when he used to jack 3's lol that lasted about 20 minutes

[gep]

I probably offered a similar critique of Lance Thomas after his sophmore season. Boy, was i wrong about him. We will see if you're right about Josh.

Wasn't it Josh who said, coming in, that he wanted to be like Lance? (or something like that:confused:)

[OldPhiKap]

Wasn't it Josh who said, coming in, that he wanted to be like Lance? (or something like that:confused:)

Seems to me that Josh has given maximum effort whenever he came in, and does what the coaches ask. Not sure I could give a player higher praise than that. Hit a 15 footer from the elbow the other night too IIRC. Jiggly going Gangnam Style.


(And yes -- I do scare my children when I talk like that)

[COYS]

I finally had a chance to actually watch the game. A lot has already been covered, but I thought I'd add a little more.

Personally, I didn't think Quinn looked as bad as some posts had indicated. The offense clearly functioned much better when he was leading it. He could easily have had 2 5-second violations forced on defense and stayed in front of his man pretty well, for the most part. For some stretches his defense was impressive, even if he let up a bit in others. In terms of his assists totals, he EASILY could have had two more. One was on an excellent look-a-head pass from mid court to Ryan waiting under the basket who was fouled and thus Quinn didn't get credit for an assist. He had another when he sprinted up court with the ball against a set defense and found Mason immediately with great position on the low block who caught the pass and then inexplicably missed a layup right at the rim. He even had another following a well-executed behind the back pass from Rasheed. Quinn caught the feed to Rasheed and immediately flipped it to Alex(?) for an easy flush, but a WWU defender was called for fouling Quinn on the pass. The turnovers were not concerning to me, either, as we've seen him take better care of the ball against stiffer competition, already. Plus, three of them came in the last few minutes. Those were probably the most egregious, but the game was effectively over by then and he may have been a bit tired. Anyway, i came away from the game with the confidence that Quinn can quarterback the offense.

Meanwhile, I thought Amile looked just about as impressive as Rasheed. He played the three almost exclusively. He is certainly unique with his long arms and sneaky, unorthodox offensive game. Boy can he get his little push shot off quickly! I thought he looked a little shaky guarding smaller players away from the basket, but when he was off the ball, he was a terror with his long arms. He's got some growing to do, for sure, but that was still quite the debut. A Duke fan can't help but smile after seeing what Amile and Rasheed brought on Saturday.

Speaking of Rasheed, his first half was virtually flawless. He made killer entry passes, he hit open threes, he made the right read on screens (when to pass, when to drive, when to split the defenders), he made killer cuts to the basket, he was insanely active on defense . . . it was pretty incredible. I thought that the second half showed that he's still a freshman, though. He couldn't get quite as involved and missed his only attempt from three. Still, that first half brought a smile to my face . . . and maybe caused a few fist pumps.

Tyler looked very familiar. Not much new to say. He is still not much of a creator on offense, but he's steady with the ball. He got under the skin of the WWU guards pretty quickly, as you'd expect, and had a few heads-up steals. On the other hand, he was the victim of a few blow-bys, especially when the WWU player had a head of steam. In the first half when he and Rasheed shared the court, Tyler brought the ball up but Rasheed created most of the offense. It will be interesting to see whether that becomes a theme if Tyler is on the court with Seth or Rasheed. Tyler might initiate the offense, but will the staff try to put Seth, Rasheed (and possibly Mason) in positions where they can be the primary facilitators? My hope is that Quinn improves enough that Tyler can come in with full energy for 15 minutes or so per game. This is not a knock on him, but I think his value increases when he can catch the opposing team off guard with his tough and tenacious D and cary as little of the offensive burden as possible. In extended minutes, the element of surprise with his defensive energy is diminished a bit and opposing teams can adjust to basically not worrying about him on offense. Note that this is not a knock on Tyler, because we will need his spark and attitude. But I think this is the role that best suits him.

Josh looked just a bit quicker and stronger, himself. However, I'm not sure that his playing time will increase that much, absent any injuries. Miles is gone, but between the increase in minutes for Ryan and Mason, the addition of the much bigger Marshall, and the abilities of Alex and Amile, I doubt that Josh forces his way into major minutes. But ya never know, right?

Alex was solid, too. He didn't have the scoring numbers of Rasheed or Amile, but I still loved what I saw from him. Compared to Amile, I thought Alex looked just a bit better guarding opposing players on the ball. Even when he got beat, he recovered quickly (one of his early blocks came from a lightening quick recovery after he got beat on the baseline). He had a nice coast-to-coast steal and layup, too. He seems to like to cut and slash towards the basket, looking to receive a pass in motion heading towards the rim or take a quick dribble or two before taking a shot or making a pass. He didn't do much spot-up shooting. His free throw shooting looks pretty poor, too, which makes me wonder how much of a three point threat he'll be this year. However, he was nothing but non-stop, focused activity on both ends. I think he'll have some quiet games on offense, but there will definitely be times when defenses are so keyed in on our other offensive threats that Alex will put up some nice point totals. Also, between Amile and Alex, I think it's safe to say we'll almost certainly get higher rebounding numbers from the three spot this year.

Finally, for the bigs, I liked what I saw offensively from Ryan and Mason. Defensively, however, I wasn't as impressed. Both are still pretty mediocre at hedging perimeter players after ball screens. And neither showed an improved ability to guard people away from the basket. WWU had big guys who could shoot (and shoot well!), but when Mason or Ryan crowded them to prevent the three point shot, they were usually beaten off the dribble pretty easily. When they backed off, they gave up a lot of good looks from range. Perhaps 2010 spoiled me with Zoubs and Lance giving nightly clinics on how to hedge and recover on defense. However, I think this will prove to be one of the key issues to address if our defense is to be improved. As much as we lamented the inability of our perimeter to match up with opposing perimeters in terms of size and quickness last season, our bigs didn't hedge well last year, either. We'll have to see how our team performs when opposing teams start running ball screen after ball screen.

A few final notes:

Amile played the three almost exclusively. This could be because Seth was out. But at the same time, I thought that was very interesting. Our lineup looks a bit deeper if Amile can earn minutes backing up Alex at the three while Josh and Marshall back up Ryan and Mason.

Tyler and Quinn played side by side a decent amount, but almost never with Rasheed. Amile or Alex was used at the three when our two smallest guards were in. As far as I remember, Rasheed never played with two other guards for more than a possession or two. Will this change when Seth comes back? Something tells me that the fact that K didn't do much experimenting with three guard lineups last night or even do much testing of Amile in the post that he's going to try and stay away from that.

Finally, I think the final rotation is going to take a while to figure out. To me, there is no doubt that Seth, Quinn, Alex, Ryan, Mason, Tyler, and Rasheed are in. Foul trouble and rest will necessitate that Josh and/or Marshall play some. And Amile has unique abilities that may prove hard to keep on the bench, especially if he's a legitimate option to defend the three. Even if only one of Josh or Marshall serves as the primary back up in the post, that's already 8 players in the rotation. Would coach K expand his rotation to a full 9? It's been done before ('98), but that's clearly the exception rather than the rule. Maybe Amile's lack of strength will catch up with him. On the other hand, maybe he'll prove so good that he replaces Josh or Marshall as the primary back up to Ryan/Mason. Obviously, the Seth/Quinn/Rasheed/Tyler minutes distribution questions loom, as well. Any exhibition shows a team that is still a work in progress. I wonder, however, if we might go longer than usual before the staff figures out all of the right combinations for this team. There are so many different and unique players with varying strengths and weaknesses. I'm just glad I don't have to make playing time decisions.

[COYS]

I finally had a chance to actually watch the game. A lot has already been covered, but I thought I'd add a little more.

Personally, I didn't think Quinn looked as bad as some posts had indicated. The offense clearly functioned much better when he was leading it. He could easily have had 2 5-second violations forced on defense and stayed in front of his man pretty well, for the most part. For some stretches his defense was impressive, even if he let up a bit in others. In terms of his assists totals, he EASILY could have had two more. One was on an excellent look-a-head pass from mid court to Ryan waiting under the basket who was fouled and thus Quinn didn't get credit for an assist. He had another when he sprinted up court with the ball against a set defense and found Mason immediately with great position on the low block who caught the pass and then inexplicably missed a layup right at the rim. He even had another following a well-executed behind the back pass from Rasheed. Quinn caught the feed to Rasheed and immediately flipped it to Alex(?) for an easy flush, but a WWU defender was called for fouling Quinn on the pass. The turnovers were not concerning to me, either, as we've seen him take better care of the ball against stiffer competition, already. Plus, three of them came in the last few minutes. Those were probably the most egregious, but the game was effectively over by then and he may have been a bit tired. Anyway, i came away from the game with the confidence that Quinn can quarterback the offense.



For the fun of it I re-watched the first little bit of the game again this morning while I was eating breakfast. Upon further review, i actually think Quinn Cook was quite good, perhaps just shy of great, in the early stages of the game. He was largely responsible for almost all of our offense in the first three minutes and there was at least one more instance that I didn't mention earlier where he could have had an assist if it weren't for a foul. Rasheed drove and got the and-one on the first possession, but ever possession after that for the next three minutes features a multitude of great opportunities for Duke to score, many of which we took advantage of. Quinn quickly got the ball to Mason in the post the next time down the floor, who carelessly turned it over in the lane while making a move for his hook shot. The next possession, he hit Mason rolling to the basket with a perfect bounce pass after Mason set a great pick on the left side of the court (we clamored for this exact pass all year last year!). Mason was fouled instead of getting the easy slam, which also took away an assist for Cook. After a careless turnover by Ryan on the break, Cook pushed the ball up the court following a block by Alex. He drove straight into the teeth of the defense before kicking out to Ryan who made the extra pass to Rasheed for Rasheed's first three point bucket. Ryan got the assist, but Quinn set that whole play up with his quickness to the basket and heads up kick out to Ryan. Then, not much later, Quinn got a long rebound and raced down the court before getting fouled on a layup. That means that every possession that Quinn was involved in resulted in a positive outcome for Duke, safe Mason's turnover in the lane, which should have been a positive possession. Every time we set up in the half-court, he got the ball to Mason either on a screen and roll or on a post up, save for the very first possession when Rasheed drove and scored from the wing. He also created fast breaks that we would never have gotten last year, one resulting in Rasheed's first three and the other resulting in two free throws for Quinn.

Rasheed deservedly gets credit for getting off to a blistering start, but Quinn played pretty dang well, too. After a drive an dish to Ryan from Rasheed and a steal and layup from Rasheed, Quinn's next touch resulted in that awesome hit ahead pass to Ryan that resulted in two free throws for Ryan. Right after that, he should have forced a five second violation (i just watched the game clock while Quinn was guarding him and it definitely should have been a five second violation). Quinn may have been a little uneven at times during this game, but let's just say that this game represents a poor showing from Quinn, then Quinn is definitely not what we should be worrying about.

Now, defending ball screens is another matter.

Also, a note about Thornton. He also hit Mason on a screen and roll as well as had a few more entry passes to Mason than we usually see. I did not give him enough credit there in my initial analysis, although my opinion about Tyler's best role on the team stands, mostly because of how much more smoothly the offense operates with Quinn in the game.

[sagegrouse]

Finally, I think the final rotation is going to take a while to figure out. To me, there is no doubt that Seth, Quinn, Alex, Ryan, Mason, Tyler, and Rasheed are in. Foul trouble and rest will necessitate that Josh and/or Marshall play some. And Amile has unique abilities that may prove hard to keep on the bench, especially if he's a legitimate option to defend the three. Even if only one of Josh or Marshall serves as the primary back up in the post, that's already 8 players in the rotation. Would coach K expand his rotation to a full 9? It's been done before ('98), but that's clearly the exception rather than the rule. Maybe Amile's lack of strength will catch up with him. On the other hand, maybe he'll prove so good that he replaces Josh or Marshall as the primary back up to Ryan/Mason. Obviously, the Seth/Quinn/Rasheed/Tyler minutes distribution questions loom, as well. Any exhibition shows a team that is still a work in progress. I wonder, however, if we might go longer than usual before the staff figures out all of the right combinations for this team. There are so many different and unique players with varying strengths and weaknesses. I'm just glad I don't have to make playing time decisions.

Thanks for your newsy posts in this thread.

I think we can expect Marshall Plumlee to enter the rotation as soon as he is healthy enough to play. Remember that K said he was one of the top six players on the squad. Now, becoming part of the rotation and staying in the rotation are two separate things.

sagegrouse