About those Duke tar heels

[jimsumner]

No, not a typo. And note the lower case.

When Cutcliffe took over at Duke, he made recruiting North Carolina a priority and said so.

As a Duke alum from North Carolina [St. Pauls], I found this a breath of fresh air. Previous coaches had used North Carolina's very-real public-school mediocrity as an excuse to cede the state to not only Carolina and State but also Wake and ECU.

Long-time readers of the board may recall a handful of posters who were quite critical of this local approach.

Well, let's see where we are now.

Duke has 28 players from North Carolina. Not just guys who wandered in from the bus station, either.

Duke just defeated the self-proclaimed flag-ship school of the UNC system. All three touchdowns were scored by North Carolinians; Anthony Boone (Monroe), Jela Duncan (Charlotte) and Jamison Crowder (Monroe).

Josh Snead (Smithfield) and Duncan rushed for 173 of Duke's 234 yards; Boone had two more.

Crowder, Desmond Scott (Durham), Isaac Blakeney (Monroe), and Duncan had 14 of Duke's 23 receptions, for 120 yards.

Right tackle Perry Simmons (Raleigh) won all-offensive lineman-of-the-week designation from the ACC, while left tackle Takoby Cofield (Tarboro) played hurt all game but helped protect Renfree's blind side.

On the other side of the ball, Kyler Brown (Matthews) had a couple of big deflections and six tackles, Justin Foxx (Charlotte) had a fumble recovery and five tackles, Ross Cockrell (Waxhaw) had five tackles and a pass-broken up, Brandon Braxton (Charlotte three tackles, Tony Foster (Burlington) had a tackle and Nick Sink (Kernersville) had five tackles.

It wasn't just that one game. Duncan and Snead are 1 and 3 in team rushing for the season, Crowder, Scott and Blakeney 2, 3 and 4 in receiving. Boone has five rushing TDs and two passing TDs and he's a backup.

Then there's Ross Cockrell, arguably the league's top DB. Four picks, 10 break-ups, 43 tackles.

And this doesn't even include injured tight end Braxton Deaver (Charlotte), true freshman DT Carlos Wray (Shelby), backup offensive lineman Carson Ginn (Belmont), backup linebacker Britton Grier (Charlotte) or redshirting TE Dan Beilinson (Cary) or classmate Kelin Rayner (Leland). All of these players project to be impact players down the line.

And don't forget Kyler's older brother Kelby, who is injured this year but who had 128 tackles in his first two seasons.

I talked a bit to Josh Snead about this and he told me that interest in Duke football is up dramatically in his home county of Johnston.

Cut says geography is the biggest factor in recruiting. Bringing in local guys helps boosts fan support and brings in players who understand the league and thrive on the local rivalries.

Some of these guys were sleepers but most were highly-regarded and heavily targeted. Winning recruiting battles for guys like Snead, Cofield and Duncan is a big part of Duke winning.

It could get a lot better. Duke had a boatload of 2014 prospects in Saturday night, many from North Carolina, prepsters seeing a racous, full-house cheer on a bowl-bound Duke team over North Carolina

That has to be a big plus. If these kids are as good as Ross Cockrell, Jamison Crowder, Kelby Brown and Jela Duncan, he can hardly bring in too many.

Anyone want to argue that Duke is wasting too much time recruiting North Carolina?

[jjasper0729]

I couldn't agree with you more about this. As an NC alum (Burgaw), I would think that if we can get a good chunk of the roster to be in-state athletes that are as good (won't say better because these guys are pretty darn good to this point) as the current crop, then packing the stadium would be easier and would make the expansion plans go a lot smoother. I've always said that being the "national" university meant we didn't have the local fan base that the 'holes and the woofies have but if we can foster that with the roster and get those communities (even the ones a 2-3 hours away, it's not a terrible drive with the interstates) on the Duke bandwagon, then we can fill Wade with no problem.

[Bob Green]

Anyone want to argue that Duke is wasting too much time recruiting North Carolina?

Awesome post!

And the cupboard could be getting fuller. In 2013, we already have verbal commitments from: Breon Borders (Statesville), Quay Chambers (Monroe), Bryon Fields (Charlotte) and Quay Mann (Rocky Mount).

[Lid]

As another NC native alum, I'm thrilled to see so many NC guys leading the way. Very, very satisfying, any way you slice it.

[budwom]

I would not argue that Duke is spending too much time recruiting North Carolina. Our growing success speaks for itself.

However, without getting into a debate which could mar the current euphoria in which we all currently bask, some have noted that
we are not sufficiently recruiting some areas where we have had major success in the past AND where our outstanding academic reputation
might well (again) find some really good players, specifically places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey and perhaps Ohio.

Again, I don't care where we get our players as long as they're good. Recruiting NC has been great.
I'm sure Jim remembers decades ago when he was but a wee lad, we got a lot of our best players from the OH/PA/NJ area.
I just hate leaving a stone unturned....but I'm thrilled about where we are, so I'd call this an observation, not quite a complaint.

[jimsumner]

I would not argue that Duke is spending too much time recruiting North Carolina. Our growing success speaks for itself.

However, without getting into a debate which could mar the current euphoria in which we all currently bask, some have noted that
we are not sufficiently recruiting some areas where we have had major success in the past AND where our outstanding academic reputation
might well (again) find some really good players, specifically places like Pennsylvania, New Jersey and perhaps Ohio.

Again, I don't care where we get our players as long as they're good. Recruiting NC has been great.
I'm sure Jim remembers decades ago when he was but a wee lad, we got a lot of our best players from the OH/PA/NJ area.
I just hate leaving a stone unturned....but I'm thrilled about where we are, so I'd call this an observation, not quite a complaint.

To a certain extent, you recruit what you know. Know the territory and all that. Cut has coached at Alabama, Mississippi and Tennesse, three state-supported schools that had a pretty defined territory. He was responsible for recruiting NC for the Vols and is making great use of the contacts he made in that role. He already knew the top NC prep coaches coming in to Duke.

The great thing about the northern/midwestern prep schools is their academic quality. And Duke does have some talent from the areas you mentioned, e.g. Kenny Anunike (Ohio), Laken Tomlinson (Chicago) and Ross Martin (Ohio). There are promising redshirt freshmen OL from Ohio and Wisconsin. So, they are turning over some northern stones.

But the demographics are changing. The population is moving south. We grew up in a time when the toughness and skill of the Pennsylvania mining-community kids was legendary.

Is that still the case, at least in numbers large enough to justify large-scale poaching by southern schools? Would anyone argue that Pennsylvania prep football is the current equal of what we see down south?

The challenge for Duke is identifying the southern prospects who meet Duke's academic standards, while maintaining a national profile. Duke does have recruited freshmen from California, Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, Texas, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. So, there is a fair amount of geographical diversity.

I remember when Red Wilson made some forays into the St. Louis area. Got some talent. Mark Militello, Ron Sally, Joel Blunk, Daryl Brunson. Coaching changes and Duke stopped going to St. Louis. Sometimes, it just happens that way.

[budwom]

I pretty much agree, Jim. Cutcliffe and his staff know the southeast well, and they like to recruit heavily there. When he hired Lubick as an
assistant, we picked up our west coast recruiting.

My main point is that Duke is a national university with a great reputation, and I have heard from people I trust that we have failed to offer
scholarships to some very talented players in PA and NJ who might well be amenable to a Duke offer. If we can get our students from all
over, why not football players? Again, we do have some guys from various areas of the country, so it's not a big deal to me....

One advantage though to recruiting a bit more in the northern regions: I strongly suspect that a higher percentage of kids in that region
would academically qualify for Duke (as you mention) vs. kids in NC schools. I've heard statistics about how Duke can offer only a small percentage of the
top 100 NC kids each year due to academics. A high percentage of the talented kids in the north attend academically strong prep/Catholic
schools which act as regional magnets for top athletes, e.g. Don Bosco in NJ. Hope that isn't too many generalities for one paragraph...

Again, this is only an observation, not a complaint. There's always room for improvement. And I'm delighted we're getting some good kids out of NC.

[loran16]

I pretty much agree, Jim. Cutcliffe and his staff know the southeast well, and they like to recruit heavily there. When he hired Lubick as an
assistant, we picked up our west coast recruiting.

My main point is that Duke is a national university with a great reputation, and I have heard from people I trust that we have failed to offer
scholarships to some very talented players in PA and NJ who might well be amenable to a Duke offer. If we can get our students from all
over, why not football players? Again, we do have some guys from various areas of the country, so it's not a big deal to me....

One advantage though to recruiting a bit more in the northern regions: I strongly suspect that a higher percentage of kids in that region
would academically qualify for Duke vs. kids in NC schools. I've heard statistics about how Duke can offer only a small percentage of the
top 100 NC kids each year due to academics. A high percentage of the talented kids in the north attend academically strong prep/Catholic
schools which act as regional magnets for top athletes, e.g. Don Bosco in NJ. Hope that isn't too many generalities for one paragraph...

Again, this is only an observation, not a complaint. There's always room for improvement. And I'm delighted we're getting some good kids out of NC.

It's also a resources thing.... Duke can see NC prospects pretty easily , making them far more cost effective to recruit. You're gonna miss a lot of potential dukies from out of state simply by never seeing them- but the same should not be said of nc kids

[budwom]

True, but Mr. Kevin White has given Cut a very nice recruiting budget.

I know this is a complicated issue, but I just hate to see us ignore or under-emphasize certain regions where
Duke has a stellar reputation. NJ is a perfect example of this. Still a lot of good, qualified players there,
but Duke is not very active, and not long ago we were.

[brevity]

True, but Mr. Kevin White has given Cut a very nice recruiting budget.

Money is just one kind of resource.

I have enough of a hard time trying to figure out how college basketball coaching staffs can recruit a team of a dozen or so players. For each high school class you target maybe 8-10 players hoping to get maybe 3-4? I can't fathom how wide a net you would need to cast for college football, when you're looking for about 25 players in each freshman class, depending on how redshirts count toward the scholarship total. How many players do you target? How may states can you visit?

As Jim pointed out to brilliant effect, Coach Cutcliffe has proven that Duke can focus its attention on native recruiting and develop team success, seemingly reversing history in more than one way. That's one hell of a building block.

[rtnorthrup]

I was listening to a National recruiting guy here (South Alabama) on local talk radio and he said that, not accounting for a specific school or coach, the single biggest factor in recruiting was geography. Kids want to play close to home.

Cut should be praised for increasing our presence in North Carolina, and to an extent South Carolina. Building relationships with the high school coaches in this area was a great success and will certainly help moving forward. Last year we reeled in two NC young men, Jela Duncan and Keilin Rayner that UNC was really going after. This was one of the first times that we have really gone head-to-head with UNC over prized recruits with some success.

The problem still stands. Of the consensus top 30 recruits in NC, over half will not get past admissions at Duke. Those numbers will also be similar for South Carolina, Tenn., Georgia, Florida and Alabama. Now that we are seeing results on the field, it is time for Cut to take the recruiting up another level. In addition to continuing to fight out battles in NC, we need to re-establish good relationships with schools like St. Thomas Aquinas in south Florida. Schools that traditionally send several students to Duke and already have name recognition with the school counselors.

[Jim3k]

In the Sixties, I remember as a freshman, hearing a discussion in Durham between my dad and a neighbor. The neighbor asserted that Duke as a northern school did not recruit football players from North Carolina. My dad, a recent arrival to North Carolina, didn't really argue, but was dubious. When he went to his first game he acquired a program with the names and hometowns of the players. When he later compared it with a similar roster from down the road, it turned out that Murray was slightly outrecruiting Jim Hickey for North Carolina players. It's probably not coincidental that those early Sixties Duke teams were ranked. The neighbor was chagrined.

Even so, those sorts of things have an ebb and flow. It's certainly good for attendance. Stanford has 35-36 players from California; the rest are nationally recruited, going as far south as Florida and Georgia and as far east as Massachusetts--not to mention the Midwest--and one from Charlotte. Other western states are well-represented.

Duke can mirror that--with the higher numbers coming from North Carolina and the Southeast. We should be able to do as well as Stanford everywhere else, including California.

[burnspbesq]

In the Sixties, I remember as a freshman, hearing a discussion in Durham between my dad and a neighbor. The neighbor asserted that Duke as a northern school did not recruit football players from North Carolina. My dad, a recent arrival to North Carolina, didn't really argue, but was dubious. When he went to his first game he acquired a program with the names and hometowns of the players. When he later compared it with a similar roster from down the road, it turned out that Murray was slightly outrecruiting Jim Hickey for North Carolina players. It's probably not coincidental that those early Sixties Duke teams were ranked. The neighbor was chagrined.

Even so, those sorts of things have an ebb and flow. It's certainly good for attendance. Stanford has 35-36 players from California; the rest are nationally recruited, going as far south as Florida and Georgia and as far east as Massachusetts--not to mention the Midwest--and one from Charlotte. Other western states are well-represented.

Duke can mirror that--with the higher numbers coming from North Carolina and the Southeast. We should be able to do as well as Stanford everywhere else, including California.

Here's the thing about recruiting in SoCal. With absolutely no apologies to Texas or Florida, Southern California has the deepest pool of D-1 quality football players in America. The problem is that if you're Duke, you're recruiting against the entire Pac-12, the entire Mountain West, and Notre Dame. Maybe after five years of winning 8-10 games, being on national TV and playing in high-profile bowl games, a Duke assistant can walk into Mater Dei or Long Beach Poly or Serra and have a real shot at a kid of the caliber of Robert Woods or Manti Te'o. Now? No.

[loran16]

Couple of things.

1. Ted Roof's last team (07-08) had only 11 players from North Carolina. Big increase there.

2. As I said above, not recruiting players from N.C. NEVER made any sense. It's just incredibly cost effective - and by cost I don't mean money, I mean TIME - Duke coaches can recruit N.C. Players, see them weekly and still not miss much if at all practice time of the regular team. And because Duke coaches can see these players, and their teams, often, they can uncover which prospects are worth their time, which ones aren't, and hell, even spot gems in the rough who they weren't recruiting in the first place (It is far from unheard of for teams to come to games to scout specific players and to find instead a player who wasn't on their radar in the same game.) Also, it's EASIER to recruit these players, as they've probably seen Duke football, heard it on the radio, or had classmates who may have gone to Duke or been on the team. These players can come to games a lot easier than out of staters - for example, I'd bet good money that a majority if not vast majority of the prospects at Duke-UNC were from N.C. So it shouldn't be a surprise that increasing recruiting of N.C. players has resulted in more gems on the team.

3. Do we have to refer to them as "tar heels?" I know its the Tar Heel state and all, but can't we just call them local recruits?

[gep]

I'm probably repeating prior posts... but in-state recruiting also brings the families and friends from around the area to the games... which we all want to see a full stadium :cool:

[Greg_Newton]

Great thread. I think it's especially rewarding for us native North Carolinians; while it's obviously great that Duke is no longer a regional school, I do think it's a little sad that it often doesn't have much of a relationship with the area anymore. As someone who loves both Duke and the state of NC, I'm very glad to see that relationship growing with the football team.

Plus, it means we get to hear Jamison Crowder's awesome Eastern N.C. accent during postgame interviews.

[jjasper0729]

I'm probably repeating prior posts... but in-state recruiting also brings the families and friends from around the area to the games... which we all want to see a full stadium :cool:

That was my point with my post. It's good to have that higher percentage of instate and nearby state players because it makes it easier to get fannies in the seats and that in turn betters the atmosphere which in turn makes more nearby people want to come here to be watched by family and friends. It's a positive cycle.

I think we should have that national recruiting but the local angle will help build the local fan base so we can have the stadium filled like it was this past Saturday

[budwom]

In the Sixties, I remember as a freshman, hearing a discussion in Durham between my dad and a neighbor. The neighbor asserted that Duke as a northern school did not recruit football players from North Carolina. My dad, a recent arrival to North Carolina, didn't really argue, but was dubious. When he went to his first game he acquired a program with the names and hometowns of the players. When he later compared it with a similar roster from down the road, it turned out that Murray was slightly outrecruiting Jim Hickey for North Carolina players. It's probably not coincidental that those early Sixties Duke teams were ranked. The neighbor was chagrined.

Even so, those sorts of things have an ebb and flow. It's certainly good for attendance. Stanford has 35-36 players from California; the rest are nationally recruited, going as far south as Florida and Georgia and as far east as Massachusetts--not to mention the Midwest--and one from Charlotte. Other western states are well-represented.

Duke can mirror that--with the higher numbers coming from North Carolina and the Southeast. We should be able to do as well as Stanford everywhere else, including California.

Great example, Jim. Northwestern is another one, a very good team that recruits well nationally.
As folks have mentioned, I think most of our coaches have their best contacts in the southeast....but we hired Lubick who has
good contacts in the west....it wouldn't hurt to have someone on the staff with major northeast contacts.

[johnb]

excellent thread.

I'd add only that Duke isn't a national school in football the way it is for general academics and a bunch of other sports. For NC recruits, it's div 1 and a place to be really proud of--especially after last weekend; for most families in the Carolinas, it's pretty magical to get a free ride to the region's most elite university, and it's my impression that the football players at Duke have been a generally diligent and likable bunch.

For recruits almost everywhere else, duke doesn't yet have the cachet that would regularly allow it to trump the home flagship university. we might think Duke is better academically than, say, Texas, Ohio State, or Florida, but those schools are plenty good enough for 95% of undergraduates (including Duke undergrads, who might be surprised to discover that there are plenty of smart kids at places like NC State and Clemson (jury's still out on Carolina))... So we can get some 3 star players from, say, Florida, who like Duke and the likelihoood of PT compared to what they'd get at Florida State, but it'll be tough to get the 4 and 5 star guys how expect to start wherever they go (notwithstanding the reality that places like Fl state and Alabama have more 4/5 star recruits than starting spots).

[Devil549]

Since Day 1 Coach Cut has said he would recruit NC and he has. It is a win/win for Duke for many reasons and they are good FB student athletes in NC.

Duke has serveral private school student atheltes from NC and the private schools in NC have upgraded their FB programs. Coach and his staff has also worked the public schools hard in NC and they have good student athletes also.

Duke will always need to recruit out of state but I like the fact they are working hard instate. One thing we must realize NC has 5 BCS schools and they all want NC kids, so very competitive. Duke is going head to head with Unc, NCSU, WF & ECU for the top talent in NC and that is a good thing.

Jim thanks for this thread and all of your other info about DUKE FOOTBALL.....GO DUKE!!!!!!

[budwom]

Since Day 1 Coach Cut has said he would recruit NC and he has. It is a win/win for Duke for many reasons and they are good FB student athletes in NC.

Duke has serveral private school student atheltes from NC and the private schools in NC have upgraded their FB programs. Coach and his staff has also worked the public schools hard in NC and they have good student athletes also.

Duke will always need to recruit out of state but I like the fact they are working hard instate. One thing we must realize NC has 5 BCS schools and they all want NC kids, so very competitive. Duke is going head to head with Unc, NCSU, WF & ECU for the top talent in NC and that is a good thing.

Jim thanks for this thread and all of your other info about DUKE FOOTBALL.....GO DUKE!!!!!!

You're right, NC is VERY competitive when it comes to recruiting...which is another reason why I wouldn't mind us expanding our range a bit.
In fact Duke HAS historically recruited well in the Northeast, so I don't think we're an unknown entity up there. We've just sort of neglected the area....which is fine as long
as we're getting good players from somewhere.

But to add to the discussion, because of the competitive nature of southeast recruiting, Cut has taken quite a few fliers at lightly recruited kids in the area. At Mississippi he had a good
track record of finding diamonds in the rough (e.g. two star plays who were really good). At Duke he's had some (I believe Vernon is a prime example)...BUT he has had a fairly large
number of misses. I'll refrain from naming names, but those who follow our recruiting know what I'm talking about. This is one reason why we still have serious deficiencies at
a few positions. Yes, sometimes highly regarded guys don't always work out, and sometimes you can find a really good two star player. However, generally speaking, there IS
a pretty strong correlation between player rankings and ultimate productivity. Our offensive line is a great example where we have a lot of three star depth sitting on the bench
(five good redshirt frosh). The point being that rather than sift the ground for more diamonds in the rough in the southeast, I'd like to see us go after more three stars up north.

[Dev11]

In fact Duke HAS historically recruited well in the Northeast, so I don't think we're an unknown entity up there. We've just sort of neglected the area....which is fine as long
as we're getting good players from somewhere.

I think we have different definitions of "recruited well." I am far from an expert in football recruiting, but I wouldn't classify much of what we did over the last 20 years as done "well."

I don't frankly mind where Cut and the staff find the kids. If they are smart enough to stay in school and eager enough to play for the program, they can be from Alaska. Just don't hit me with the travel costs for finding them :)

[budwom]

I never said we recruited well overall. I'm just asserting that traditionally we HAVE been able to get good players out of the Northeast. Very good players.
Just in the last decade or so, two of our only pro draftees came from the Northeast: Len Friedman from New Jersey and Drew Stojny from MA.
Before that, Dave Brown (NJ) and Chris Port (NJ) were also all ACC/NFL players. The point being Duke does have the ability to recruit there, if not necessarily much of a current will.

[DukeSean]

I seem to recall reading an article about Takoby Cofield's (Tarboro) recruitment and how he essentially started recruiting other high-level NC guys to play with him at Duke once he committed.

I think this is a pretty big key. Local HS alum who go on to do very well at Duke encourages the following generations of players to seriously consider Duke too. Sometimes your most valuable recruiters are those you've just gotten to commit.

[Greg_Newton]

I seem to recall reading an article about Takoby Cofield's (Tarboro) recruitment and how he essentially started recruiting other high-level NC guys to play with him at Duke once he committed.

I think this is a pretty big key. Local HS alum who go on to do very well at Duke encourages the following generations of players to seriously consider Duke too. Sometimes your most valuable recruiters are those you've just gotten to commit.

Very true. 6-10 years ago, you would have gotten laughed at for considering playing football Duke over UNC or State in most areas of the state, especially the rural ones. Winning obviously changes that, but seeing local guys be successful and happy in the program is also huge.

I also think Devil549 makes a great point about NC private schools. I certainly never thought of the NCISAA as a football hotbed when I was there, but we've recruited very well from those schools over the past 2-3 years: Ross Cockrell, Brandon Braxton, Kelby/Kyler Brown, Braxton Deaver, Justin Foxx, Nick Sink and Auggie Campbell are all NC private school recruits who have started (or projected to start) for us this year, most with several years left. Really, it's easily been our most successful talent pool - I believe Tim Burton was Cut's only NCISAA recruit who never started, and he would have as a RS-SO had he not screwed up.

Credit to Cut for finding and exploiting this niche.