Cheap shot on Conner Vernon (Update: Rashad, 2 Officials Suspended One Game)

[graybead]

How was this not an unsportsmanlike penalty. When I went nuts about this last night, UNC fans around me said it was clearly accidental. It looks to me like the UNC player "CLEARLY" lowered his shoulder into Conner's back. I also thought this kind of thing could be reviewed. Why did they not review this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDgiBu8cFa4

[BD80]

How was this not an unsportsmanlike penalty. When I went nuts about this last night, UNC fans around me said it was clearly accidental. It looks to me like the UNC player "CLEARLY" lowered his shoulder into Conner's back. I also thought this kind of thing could be reviewed. Why did they not review this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDgiBu8cFa4

What is "clear" is that he made NO effort to avoid contact.

Have unc officials or coaching staff issued any sort of apology for this heinous conduct? I'm sure they could search Google to find an apology to copy.

[grossbus]

"What is "clear" is that he made NO effort to avoid contact."

what is clear is that he did what he intended to do. he had a good 5 yard run right at him. no way he didn't see him.

[Reilly]

.... I'm sure they could search Google to find an apology to copy.

"If anyone was offended by our cheap shot, we sincerely apologize."

[devildeac]

"If anyone was offended by our cheap shot, we sincerely apologize."

Source? Link?

(;))

[cspan37421]

What is "clear" is that he made NO effort to avoid contact.

Have unc officials or coaching staff issued any sort of apology for this heinous conduct? I'm sure they could search Google to find an apology to copy.

While there should be some repercussion for that UNC LB, I'm afraid the FB culture in this country, at this level, in this conference simply isn't one of vigilant enforcement of sportsmanship and punishment of cheap-shot artists. I don't see this changing until someone gets seriously hurt, and even then, I think it'll take a few such instances to get enough people to care.

I wish that the culture were different, but I don't think it is. My guess is that if you watched every Div 1 FBS football game on a Saturday you would see many cheap shots. Now, I have not previously seen one that was executed in quite that manner (dead ball, from behind, on a substitution - very strange), but he was back the next play. There are all kinds of cheap shots like late hits on the QB, chop blocks, grabbing junk in a pileup, elbows to the ribs, and helmet-to-helmet hits on a regular basis. Seriously, I watched NFL and college FB last weekend and it seemed like every tackle began with a helmet to helmet hit just prior to arms going around the guy. I'm not talking spearing, but it you watch closely, helmets hit almost every play. There's rather little of the grab the guy and haul him down. You first hit like a missile, and then (the better players) wrap their stunned quarry up and bring them down. Many of the players with (IMO) worse technique rely wholly on the missile-type impact to knock a guy down, never using their arms at all!

Anyway it's a brutal sport and I'm starting to see why my dad (long a fan, OSU season ticket holder for years) now views it as brutal as boxing and has rapidly lost his taste for it.

[moonpie23]

those guys are pros, awaiting their purgatory ......our guys are college football players....

[Olympic Fan]

I'm told the play is being reviewed by the ACC office ... whether anything will come of it, I can't say.

I found out that Cutcliffe didn't see it happen in real time. When he asked the officials what had happened to Vernon, he was told that the UNC [player was running backwards -- turned toward the bench to get instructions -- and he inadvertantly collided with Vernon. That's why he wasn't more upset Saturday night.

Upon reviewing the film Sunday morning, Cutcliffe saw what really happened and was incensed.

It's one of the most blatant cheap shots I've ever seen on the college football field.

[OZ]

I found out that Cutcliffe didn't see it happen in real time. When he asked the officials what had happened to Vernon, he was told that the UNC [player was running backwards -- turned toward the bench to get instructions -- and he inadvertantly collided with Vernon. That's why he wasn't more upset Saturday night.


Two points.

1. If the officials didn't see the play, then why make something up? Obviously, if this was their explanation, then they missed it. By creating an explanation, they now run the risk of compromising their credibility. I was taught when officiating high school ball... if you didn't see something, don't make something up. You may later have to explain your call.
If this indeed is what they told Cut, these guys clearly made that up.

2. There is no way ALL the officials missed this. Like Cut, I was even more incensed when I got home and saw the replay. Take a look at the linesman at the top of your t.v. screen. He sees the collision and immediately runs to the ball and then huddles the officials. For some reason they chose not to make an issue of this, but their story is bull.

[TruBlu]

How was this not an unsportsmanlike penalty. When I went nuts about this last night, UNC fans around me said it was clearly accidental. It looks to me like the UNC player "CLEARLY" lowered his shoulder into Conner's back. I also thought this kind of thing could be reviewed. Why did they not review this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDgiBu8cFa4

Obviously calling a penalty for this criminal act would go against the official's policy of not calling a penalty on UNC-Cheat after the first quarter when they play Duke. There were only 2 (two!) penalties called against UNC-CHeat in the whole game. The last one occurred at the 5 minute mark in the first quarter. Quite an improvement from the 15 penalties called against them against Miami last week . . . must be great coaching.

[hood7]

Ol'Roy coaches them to not foul.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I found out that Cutcliffe didn't see it happen in real time.

I didn't either. I had turned around to talk to devildeac, and 3 seconds later I turned to see a player on the field. I was beyond confused since we hadn't even run a play. Once we realized what happened, we were both calling for an ejection. How could there not be one on a dead ball hit? Grrrrrrrr. Anyways, the sweet taste of victory made for a short memory..but I do hope the ACC office does review it and take some action.

[SCMatt33]

I don't really have too much of a problem with the way the refs handled it in the game. At that point, each official has a specific job to do, whether it is watching for a false start/offsides, watching the play clock, or counting players on the field. The side judge would probably have seen it out of his peripheral vision, but was probably focusing on the middle of the field. That could be where the inadvertent hit explanation came from. The official thought he saw one thing, but didn't have the proper view and was mistaken. I bielieve it is the umpires job (but I'm not sure) to count the guys on the field. If he was looking in that general direction, then he should have called it, but it's not unreasonable that he was looking the other way.

I am a little upset at the apparent explaination, unless they also told h they weren't really sure about it, which could have happened, but wasn't reported. I'm glad that the conference is looking at it. If this were the NFL, I'd expect something around a 25k fine, and I don't know what the ACC equivalent is. I'd like to see a one game suspension, but too often the result is punished and not the intent. Since Conner was ok, he might get off light, which is unfortunate.

[DukeSean]

I'd be disappointed if Rashad didn't get at least a 1-game suspension for that cheap shot. Maybe make him attend an Afro-American class as additional punishment.

A couple plays after the one in question, Brian Moore undercut UNC's Tim Jackson and took him out of the game. Payback? Maybe, maybe not. Carolina fans are screaming foul for that play, but I doubt it anything happens for that. Video: http://youtu.be/5GVZPxDTzrg

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'd be disappointed if Rashad didn't get at least a 1-game suspension for that cheap shot. Maybe make him attend an Afro-American class as additional punishment.

A couple plays after the one in question, Brian Moore undercut UNC's Tim Jackson and took him out of the game. Payback? Maybe, maybe not. Carolina fans are screaming foul for that play, but I doubt it anything happens for that. Video: http://youtu.be/5GVZPxDTzrg

You know what? I think Moore tripped and fell forward. Unlucky for Jackson but it doesn't look anything but accidental on the tape.

[Lord Ash]

Okay, I am sure I am nuts... but the way the UNC player lowers/leans his shoulder, is it possible he was actually twisting to AVOID the collision and simply misjudged badly? I know that might sound crazy, but honestly that's how I saw it on first viewing... almost like an awkward attempt to AVOID the collision.

Maybe I'm crazy.

[DukeSean]

Okay, I am sure I am nuts... but the way the UNC player lowers/leans his shoulder, is it possible he was actually twisting to AVOID the collision and simply misjudged badly? I know that might sound crazy, but honestly that's how I saw it on first viewing... almost like an awkward attempt to AVOID the collision.

Maybe I'm crazy.

You're definitely crazy. But I still like you.

[DukeSean]

You know what? I think Moore tripped and fell forward. Unlucky for Jackson but it doesn't look anything but accidental on the tape.

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. And you can't prove Moore tried to do anything intentionally with that video. I also thought it was accidental.

[Dev11]

Okay, I am sure I am nuts... but the way the UNC player lowers/leans his shoulder, is it possible he was actually twisting to AVOID the collision and simply misjudged badly? I know that might sound crazy, but honestly that's how I saw it on first viewing... almost like an awkward attempt to AVOID the collision.

Maybe I'm crazy.

Could be plausible, except for his reaction: a brief head turn to see the result of his collision, and an affirmative fist bump from a teammate.

[MulletMan]

So four officials come together, and discuss the contact. They tell Cut that the player was looking back at the sideline and accidentally ran into Vernon. Thus, no personal foul penalty. OK... but there was contact, right? I mean, to this we can all certainly agree. So riddle me this... how, exactly, since Duke is set and ready to run a play, is the contact, which it seems that all parties acknowledge occurred, not encroachment on the defense and a first down for Duke since it was 2nd and 3?

I mean, there is being blind, and then there's just complete and utter stupidity.

[Skydog]

Obviously intentional, not sure how anyone could see it otherwise. The idea that the UNC athlete "clumsily" leans his shoulder into Conner to avoid him is ludicrous.

Also if you run into someone accidentally from behind the normal reaction is to acknowledge it in some way; you don't just keep running as if nothing happened. But that is what you do if you are trying to not be noticed, if you are doing the old get-in-your-cheap-shot-and-then-act-like-nothing-happened routine you see so often in athletics. Or even in high school hallways for that matter.

[Danke Shane]

I think it's kind of telling the way the other UNC player gives him a bit of a high five towards the middle of that clip. Why would he be getting congratulated if the intent wasn't to send Vernon to the ground?

[gus]

You're definitely crazy. But I still like you.

I've known Lord Ash since... what, 1990? you've got it right. :)

[BD80]

I'd be disappointed if Rashad didn't get at least a 1-game suspension for that cheap shot. Maybe make him attend an Afro-American class as additional punishment. ...

I think solitary confinement has been banned in NC

[oldnavy]

Obviously intentional, not sure how anyone could see it otherwise. The idea that the UNC athlete "clumsily" leans his shoulder into Conner to avoid him is ludicrous.

Also if you run into someone accidentally from behind the normal reaction is to acknowledge it in some way; you don't just keep running as if nothing happened. But that is what you do if you are trying to not be noticed, if you are doing the old get-in-your-cheap-shot-and-then-act-like-nothing-happened routine you see so often in athletics. Or even in high school hallways for that matter.

Accident?? Hardly!

Connor had established his position long before the UNC thug started onto the field, so I don't know how anyone would see it as accidental. Now if Connor had moved into the guys path, or even if the UNC player was looking back at the sideline then it would be a whole different set of circumstances.

No, he took a bead on Conner and cheap shoted him.

Hey, what do you expect from UNC?? I mean they obviously abandoned the "Carolina Way" (whatever the heck that was) long ago in football, and started lowering standards and expectations for the FB players.

What I find amusing is that for all their compromising what do they have to show for it? Nothing!!

Seems like when they sold their collective souls they got shafted by the devil!!

Let's see how serious UNC is about changing things moving forward. A nice suspension for that player (by UNC) would go a long way in changing the tone on the hill, but honestly I am not going to hold my breath.

[johnb]

Intentionality isn't a primary concern in football. Assessing motivation would be a lot to ask of middle aged officials racing around a thick forest of 20 year old athletes as they try to maul each other.

Contact with the offense is encroachment on the defense. A lot of contact is 15 yards. An effort to injure during a dead ball warrants a suspension. My view is that no one seems to ever recall this particular foul happening before, and I doubt an official is assigned to watch for players knocking down players as they check into the game, and they blew the call (which--to my mind--should been 15 yards but not a suspension and at least a 5 yard encroachment). My guess is that the Carolina player intended to brush against Conner in an effort to intimidate him and screwed up; in so doing, it would be an extension of what linebackers and DB's are presumably trying to do to star receivers every down of every game (make them worry that they'll get hurt by people who want to hurt them).

[Wander]

Cut them some slack. That was the best tackle they had all game.

[wilko]

Cut them some slack. That was the best tackle they had all game.

Das funny rite there.... Glad it turned out for the best.
Vernon is one tuff hombre.

I think that his elasticity to recover, return to the lineup and make big catches down the stretch - and that Duke was ultimately able to win the game those factors will ultimately bury any punishment.

Hope I'm wrong.

[captmojo]

...to either the player or the officials. At the VERY least, as has been mentioned earlier, 5 yards for offsides.
Contact was made by the defensive player before the ball was snapped, with the offense at the line of scrimmage and ready to go. I do feel it was intentional, yet that call is always hard to determine at the time it occurs. Intent would have to be a rule satisfied by a mandatory penalty for that type of contact. To my knowledge, alas, the mandatory ruling doesn't exist.
Maybe this should be reviewed by the NCAA rules committee.

[BigWayne]

So four officials come together, and discuss the contact. They tell Cut that the player was looking back at the sideline and accidentally ran into Vernon. Thus, no personal foul penalty. OK... but there was contact, right? I mean, to this we can all certainly agree. So riddle me this... how, exactly, since Duke is set and ready to run a play, is the contact, which it seems that all parties acknowledge occurred, not encroachment on the defense and a first down for Duke since it was 2nd and 3?

I mean, there is being blind, and then there's just complete and utter stupidity. You have it 100% right. I was assuming when the officials were huddled that they would at a minimum call the 5 yarder.

[DukeSean]

And now Fedora comes out in defense of Rashad, saying no malice was intended:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/uncnow/unc-coach-larry-fedora-on-shakeel-rashad-collision-with-conner-vernon-there-was-no-malice

He might be a nice guy off the field, but c'mon man the tape don't lie. Guess it'll be up to the ACC office to do something.

[jimsumner]

I finally got around to watching the DVR of the game.

No question in my mind that this was intentional and dirty. It also seemed to me that one official was on the sidelines, no more than10 yards away and he didn't blow the whistle. Maybe he was too stunned to throw the flag right away. But these guys huddled and talked about it. Time and opportunity to make the right call. And they didn't. Multiple rotten tomatoes.

I recall that Carolina knocked out Renfree in last year's game with a late-hit, that was flagged. But that was a different coaching staff, so I'm not sure I can see a trend line.

But it does make the blood boil a bit.

[Duvall]

I finally got around to watching the DVR of the game.

No question in my mind that this was intentional and dirty. It also seemed to me that one official was on the sidelines, no more than10 yards away and he didn't blow the whistle. Maybe he was too stunned to throw the flag right away. But these guys huddled and talked about it. Time and opportunity to make the right call. And they didn't. Multiple rotten tomatoes.

I recall that Carolina knocked out Renfree in last year's game with a late-hit, that was flagged. But that was a different coaching staff, so I'm not sure I can see a trend line.

But it does make the blood boil a bit.

The previous coaching staff had five seasons to build a culture of rulebreaking, including, but obviously not limited to, numerous cheap shots. Would be a surprise to see that change in just a few months, even if the new staff wanted to make that change.

[wilko]

Looky what just came up in my yahoo home page....
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/unc-player-delivers-looks-dirty-cheap-shot-duke-170224156--ncaaf.html

[mkline09]

Now apparently there is a controversy that Duke's Brian Moore is alleged to have done an illegal cut block, which upon looking at the evidence looks like a completely ridiculous claim. And of course the Carolina contingent are claiming Vernon flopped so the hit on him was okay.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/uncnow/unc-cb-jabari-price-on-tim-jackson-cut-block-play-it-was-a-nasty-play-and-something-should-be

[Duke1986]

Larry Fedora's explanation: “First of all, you’ve got to know Rashad,” Fedora said. “He’s one of the nicest kids that we have on our football team and I can assure you there was no intention of harming the other player. Or actually, there was no intention on his part to actually even run into the player.”

Yep. And to anybody who believes that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. (Although maybe Fedora was actually speaking the truth when he said that Rashad had "no intention of harming the other player.")

[graybead]

OK... but there was contact, right? I mean, to this we can all certainly agree. So riddle me this... how, exactly, since Duke is set and ready to run a play, is the contact, which it seems that all parties acknowledge occurred, not encroachment on the defense and a first down for Duke since it was 2nd and 3?

Very good point. I was so upset that they didn't throw a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct, that I didn't even think about the fact that just making contact is an obvious penalty. And, are you even allowed to run onto the field from behind the opposing team? I seriously doubt there will be a suspension, but they have some explaining to do.

[tendev]

Okay, I am sure I am nuts... but the way the UNC player lowers/leans his shoulder, is it possible he was actually twisting to AVOID the collision and simply misjudged badly? I know that might sound crazy, but honestly that's how I saw it on first viewing... almost like an awkward attempt to AVOID the collision.

Maybe I'm crazy.

That was my thought.

He was making a bee line for his position and in a hurry to get there. It looked like a last minute change of a lineup. Perhaps he thought Vernon was going to keep moving to the left towards the sideline and when he found out he was not he turned his left shoulder to the left to avoid attempt to avoid contact. Reckless yes, intentional, no.

[JasonEvans]

The cut block came just a couple minutes after the Pearl Harbor job on Vernon. I found it utterly predictable that Duke would retaliate and attempt to hurt a Carolina player minutes after a Carolina player blindsided Duke's top receiver. I am not saying the Duke play is forgivable (it does look sorta intentional to me), merely pointing out that when one team takes a cheap shot and the refs do nothing about it, you can bet a cheap shot will be returned at some point.

Heck, I think we are lucky this thing did not get even worse with more players attempting to injure the other side. I would imagine that Carolina getting back into the game and making it a tight contest (it could easily have been a Duke blowout at various points in the game) allowed the players to focus more on their play versus extracting revenge and tit-for-tat attacks.

-Jason "the fact that the refs called no penalty on the Vernon hit is a joke... if nothing else, it is the definition of offsides" Evans

[gam7]

That was my thought.

He was making a bee line for his position and in a hurry to get there. It looked like a last minute change of a lineup. Perhaps he thought Vernon was going to keep moving to the left towards the sideline and when he found out he was not he turned his left shoulder to the left to avoid attempt to avoid contact. Reckless yes, intentional, no.

I would agree but for one thing. The dude is running onto the field, and I would think was looking not at Vernon but at his defense to know where he was going to need to line up quickly. The thing that is weird is that his initial reaction is not that of someone who accidentially levels someone, which can happen. He pretty much just keeps running straight ahead.

[DukeUsul]

Looks like offside to me at the least.



Offside
ARTICLE 2. After the ball is ready for play, offside occurs (Rule 7-1-5) when
a defensive player:
a. Is in or beyond the neutral zone when the ball is legally snapped;
b. Contacts an opponent beyond the neutral zone before the ball is snapped;
c. Contacts the ball before it is snapped;
d. Threatens an offensive lineman, causing an immediate reaction, before
the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-3-V Note);
e. Crosses the neutral zone and charges toward a Team A back (A.R. 7-1-
5-III); or
f. Is not behind his restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked.
Offside occurs when one or more players of the kicking team are not behind
their restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked (Exception: The kicker
and holder are not offside when they are beyond their restraining line) (Rule
6-1-2).


The ball was ready to play the moment the official stepped away from it (he had). Clearly looks like the offside call was missed as well.

[roywhite]

Looky what just came up in my yahoo home page....
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/unc-player-delivers-looks-dirty-cheap-shot-duke-170224156--ncaaf.html


That was my thought.

He was making a bee line for his position and in a hurry to get there. It looked like a last minute change of a lineup. Perhaps he thought Vernon was going to keep moving to the left towards the sideline and when he found out he was not he turned his left shoulder to the left to avoid attempt to avoid contact. Reckless yes, intentional, no.

The video that wilko posted is the most detailed look I've seen.

IMO, it's a deliberate and cheap shot. I base that on the UNC looking straight ahead, lowering his head, making contact, and continuing on after he hit Vernon. In fact, as Vernon is down, the UNC player makes no attempt whatsoever to go over and apologize or indicate that the contact was accidental. He moves further away from the scene, as if he could somehow blend into the defense.

Warrants a one-game suspension IMO. Can't recall seeing anything like it in organized football.

[andrewrorex]

The cut block came just a couple minutes after the Pearl Harbor job on Vernon. I found it utterly predictable that Duke would retaliate and attempt to hurt a Carolina player minutes after a Carolina player blindsided Duke's top receiver. I am not saying the Duke play is forgivable (it does look sorta intentional to me), merely pointing out that when one team takes a cheap shot and the refs do nothing about it, you can bet a cheap shot will be returned at some point.

Heck, I think we are lucky this thing did not get even worse with more players attempting to injure the other side. I would imagine that Carolina getting back into the game and making it a tight contest (it could easily have been a Duke blowout at various points in the game) allowed the players to focus more on their play versus extracting revenge and tit-for-tat attacks.

-Jason "the fact that the refs called no penalty on the Vernon hit is a joke... if nothing else, it is the definition of offsides" Evans

Yeah, I tend to think Moore's block was retaliation. Even it wasn't, if we're fair we have to at least say that there's motive and opportunity. He didn't trip into the DT's legs. Part of me would have just been happy about winning and paying them back that way, but I'm glad our OL stepped out there and handled what the refs wouldn't do. That's a nasty we haven't seen in a long time from our OL. It also seemed like after that is when our running game really got going. Was that due to the injury, or did our OL find a new lever of "nasty" that is needed to effective run block? I liked it. We said that we aren't going to let a team get away with crap like that anymore. I hate the guy will miss 2-3 weeks (as much as I can hate something like that for a UNC player), but if the ref would have thrown a flag I think it stopped there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it and I'm fine with it. I even applaud the fact we stood up for our player, not the injury though.

[DukeSean]

The cut block came just a couple minutes after the Pearl Harbor job on Vernon. I found it utterly predictable that Duke would retaliate and attempt to hurt a Carolina player minutes after a Carolina player blindsided Duke's top receiver. I am not saying the Duke play is forgivable (it does look sorta intentional to me), merely pointing out that when one team takes a cheap shot and the refs do nothing about it, you can bet a cheap shot will be returned at some point.

-Jason "the fact that the refs called no penalty on the Vernon hit is a joke... if nothing else, it is the definition of offsides" Evans

Yes, the circumstances definitely lead me to believe that the cut block was intentional. But the thing is, it's happening during the middle of a football play, albeit away from the action. But can the ACC punish Moore for what could have been incidental vs. what was most likely intentional (Rashad)?

Do I think Moore was being overly aggressive with Jackson? Heck yes. Was it anticipated/predictable? Heck yes. Was he intentionally trying to hurt Jackson as payback? verrrrrry hard to prove.

[CarmenWallaceWade]

In fact, as Vernon is down, the UNC player makes no attempt whatsoever to go over and apologize or indicate that the contact was accidental. He moves further away from the scene, as if he could somehow blend into the defense.

Fedora's statement about the UNC player is actually what solidifies the intentional nature. "Nice kids" don't hit and run.

[Greg_Newton]

Looky what just came up in my yahoo home page....
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/unc-player-delivers-looks-dirty-cheap-shot-duke-170224156--ncaaf.html

Ha. At least we've got the Yahoo! commenter masses on our sides, if you dare scroll down...

I've watched this probably ten times and I still can't make up my mind. It seems like the simplest explanation would be a super-amped freshman panicking when he realizes we're about to run a play and he's not on the field, and just getting tunnel vision. Plus, Rashad is supposed to be a good kid that we also recruited pretty hard (same HS as our frosh TE).

However, it just doesn't quite make sense. The line he took went right through Vernon even before Vernon moved slightly, and he runs for a good 5-10 yards before turning around as he sort of slinks behind his teammates like a kid who just threw a punch. My best guess is it was some combination of the two, and that an ill-conceived "brush" turned into a little more.

Also, I have zero problem with Moore responding, if he did. Honestly, I'm glad he stood up for his star, that's what linemen are supposed to do. I hope their guy isn't seriously injured, but if he is, he has only Shakeel to blame.

[diablesseblu]

Fedora's statement about the UNC player is actually what solidifies the intentional nature. "Nice kids" don't hit and run.


Amen. It's just more of UNC's "Videri Quam Esse" from Fedora. I'm disappointed. Thought maybe he would embrace their turning the page from the Butch days.

[graybead]

A couple plays after the one in question, Brian Moore undercut UNC's Tim Jackson and took him out of the game. Payback? Maybe, maybe not. Carolina fans are screaming foul for that play, but I doubt it anything happens for that. Video: http://youtu.be/5GVZPxDTzrg

I guess I'm just extremely biased. I don't see the Brian Moore incident as retaliation or anything close to knocking Vernon down. Maybe Moore was playing aggressive, but it looks to me like the UNC player pushes Moore away, which causes him to fall and then the UNC player trips over him.

I've looked at this a dozen times and I for the life of me do not see how Moore intentionally did this.

[DukeSean]

I guess I'm just extremely biased. I don't see the Brian Moore incident as retaliation or anything close to knocking Vernon down. Maybe Moore was playing aggressive, but it looks to me like the UNC player pushes Moore away, which causes him to fall and then the UNC player trips over him.

I've looked at this a dozen times and I for the life of me do not see how Moore intentionally did this.

The intentionality eyebrow is raised by the timing of the incident: just a couple plays after Vernon taken out. Otherwise, you might just chalk it up to typical rivalry game aggressiveness.

[Class of '94]

Now apparently there is a controversy that Duke's Brian Moore is alleged to have done an illegal cut block, which upon looking at the evidence looks like a completely ridiculous claim. And of course the Carolina contingent are claiming Vernon flopped so the hit on him was okay.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/uncnow/unc-cb-jabari-price-on-tim-jackson-cut-block-play-it-was-a-nasty-play-and-something-should-be

I'm sorry but I can't stand complete and utter hypocrisy. The UNC player is demanding action be taken on a supposed cheap shot by our player; but brushes aside the earlier cheap shot by his teammate; and then tries to imply that Conner was faking his fall because he returned to the game whereas his teammate's hit was real and nasty because they guy didn't return to the game. I can't believe he implies that things happen with respect to the defenseless hit on Conner but action needs to be taken against the Duke player. It's almost laughable to read how completely biased this kid is. Again, in fairness, I would find it fair if both players were penalized because you don't want to see that kind of stuff happen in a game.

[Jim3k]

... It also seemed like after that is when our running game really got going. Was that due to the injury, or did our OL find a new lever of "nasty" that is needed to effective run block?....

I'm betting that Perry Simmons and company (including Moore) were just impelled into another level by that play. They just destroyed the left side of the Carowhina DL. If that becomes their new normal, our OL will take this team a long way.

[DukeSean]

Well, looks like Shakeel Rashad is suspended for one game:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/102212aai.html

On top of that, a line judge and side judge are suspended for one game because they didn't do the right thing:


Following the North Carolina at Duke game, a series of suspensions have been issued to a player and two officials. North Carolina freshman linebacker Shakeel Rashad has received a one-game suspension for his dangerous collision against an unsuspecting Duke player during a substitution in the second quarter. In addition, head linesman Tyrone Davis and side judge Angie Bartis have been issued one-game suspensions for failure to adhere to correct mechanics of the game and rules related to player safety.

Nothing addressing Duke center Moore.

[wilson]

Well, looks like Shakeel Rashad is suspended for one game:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/102212aai.html

On top of that, a line judge and side judge are suspended for one game because they didn't do the right thing:



Nothing addressing Duke center Moore.Wow...kudos to the folks in the league office for stepping up like this. I can't deny that I'm pleasantly surprised.

[chrishoke]

Justice is done.

[Class of '94]

Well, looks like Shakeel Rashad is suspended for one game:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/102212aai.html

On top of that, a line judge and side judge are suspended for one game because they didn't do the right thing:



Nothing addressing Duke center Moore.

This is great news. I have to admit that I'm surprised Moore didn't get a suspension. Is there a possibility the league could still rule on a possible suspension of Moore or is the league review over? I know the Carolina folks will be angry if nothing happens to Moore for his hit. And if nothing happens to Moore, next year's Carolina-Duke game at Kennan Stadium will be something else.

[-bdbd]

Well, looks like Shakeel Rashad is suspended for one game:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/102212aai.html

On top of that, a line judge and side judge are suspended for one game because they didn't do the right thing:

Nothing addressing Duke center Moore.

No surprise. The league HAD to do it. It was just too flagrant. (Good to see they hit the refs too - they really blew it and Cut was hollering bloody murder at the nearest ref afterwards - even if you don't see the whole thing, you can see enough of the aftermath to at least "compromise" and call an off-sides or something.) For those of us watching on ESPNU, one of the announcers really went off on it as an "obviously intentional cheap shot..." (with) "no place for that in Football." He even came back to it and reitterated the same view a minute later when the play-by-play guy tried to imply that the Duke play was dirty too. One is clearly a dirty cheap shot - in the slow-mo replay I looked at it appears that the NC player lowers his shoulder into Vernon just before impact too. And, as others have stated, he showed not the slightist remorse, and even got a couple subtle "high-fives" from teammates while Vernon was being tended to. As for the NC player getting injured, it is really hard to prove one way or the other, though the timing sure is suspicious. I wouldn't be shocked to see some reaction from the league on that too (esp b/c the NC fans are sure to howl about this suspension, and the lack of a Duke one), though the UNC player's infraction certainly seems more grievous.

All that said, do I think that Vernon "sold it" afterwards - I'd say probably yes - to the point that he's running on ready to play one down later. I've long since lost my tollerance to go look at IC, but almost certainly they're going to scream about the "unfairness" of this action, but not against the Duke retalliation, as they'll see it. I'm also expecting more digs about Coach K teaching Vernon how to "flop..." :rolleyes: But who cares - we won. They cheat.

BTW, while the injury to the NC player was certainly not intentional, but I'd take at least 50/50 odds that the hard block was a retalliation by Moore. But, as Duke fans, I preach caution about endorsing that sort of behavior. (Though a degree of heretofore never seen nastiness on the O-line is certainly a nice turn in attitude.)

[Lunchab1es]

All that said, do I think that Vernon "sold it" afterwards - I'd say probably yes - to the point that he's running on ready to play one down later.

I disagree... I don't think he was hurt so much as completely winded. Getting blindsided by a collegiate linebacker would certainly shake someone up too much to run the play immediately following, but a short recovery would serve before joining the following play (providing no serious injury occurred).

[SCMatt33]

I'm pleasantly surprised that Rashad is being suspended for a game. I'm also surprised at the refs being suspended. Their reasoning makes it sound like their getting it for not calling the play right, and not making up something false afterward. There are 22 players on the field. The refs can't see everyone, and as much as I lament them missing that call, I don't way refs missing more common penalties at the snap because they're worried about getting suspended if something happens to the receiver in front of them and they don't see it. Maybe these guys had been warned before, or this really is about making up an explaination and the ACC didn't want to say that, but otherwise, I think an official reprimand like the FSU refs got would be fine.

[BD80]

Well, looks like Shakeel Rashad is suspended for one game:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/102212aai.html

On top of that, a line judge and side judge are suspended for one game because they didn't do the right thing:

Nothing addressing Duke center Moore.

Procedural question. Does unc have to pay the two refs for their suspended games? The refs earned their baby blue checks for Saturday, but is unc liable for the lost future wages resulting from the refs' actions in unc's favor on Saturday?

[JasonEvans]

Interesting Twitter take on Moore not being suspended by Andrew Carter, the N&O's guy on the Carolina beat:


@_andrewcarter Not saying this is the case, but I'd guess ACC argument against suspending Moore is because that technically wasn't a penalty.

@_andrewcarter For it to be an illegal chop block, technically, two defenders must be involved.

@_andrewcarter Though Moore played role of two people on that play. Stood Jackson up, pushed him back and then hit the ground to roll through his legs.


Ha! Carter also says Larry the Hat will have a statement this evening about Rashad being suspended. Dollars to doughnuts he talks about a double standard for Moore not being suspended.

-Jason "what is the percent chance that he admits Moore was wrong? Is it possible to have a number lower than 0%?" Evans

[Mike Corey]

Vernon was hit in between whistles, when he was standing with his back to Rashad. Rashad ran into him.

Moore and the Tar Heel were tussling at the end of a play and through the whistle. Moore crossed the line, to be sure, but perhaps those minor differences resulted in the disparate treatment from the league.

[Acymetric]

I just don't see what you guys see as far as the Moore block. Looks like he goes to the ground, but certainly doesn't appear he dove to the ground. I will admit that it is possible the play was intentional, but my eyes tell me it is far more likely that he just ended up going to the ground during the course of a football play (been known to happen occasionally) and things worked out very poorly for the Carolina player.

I also don't get the motivation factor. If Cut didn't know what happened on the play until after the game I would wager the players (who were looking forward not back towards Conner on the far side of the field) didn't know either.

[graybead]

Wow...kudos to the folks in the league office for stepping up like this. I can't deny that I'm pleasantly surprised. Wow! I'm in total shock! I agree with the suspensions and glad the ACC did the right thing, but I'm just shocked. Maybe I just don't follow suspensions normally, but I've never heard of officials being suspended before.

[DukeSean]

FWIW, and that may not be a lot, but here are some statements from UNC, including Rashad himself:

http://m.goheels.com/mobile/ViewArticle.dbml?atclid=205717847&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=&SPID=12962&DB_OEM_ID=3350

[Newton_14]

Linky (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-linebacker-shakeel-rashad-suspended-for-one-game-by-acc-/11688839/)

ACC takes appropriate action!

Imagine that.

[diablesseblu]

It's truly the "Carolina Way" of old, deflect and deny.

[cspan37421]

I am amazed the ACC acted on this.

As for the Moore thing, it's not as obvious to me, but it does look fishy. Apparently such blocks are legal within a limited range of the line of scrimmage and the box. I don't know that this would meet that criteria, but I was surprised to learn it's not always against NCAA football rules.

That said, two wrongs don't make a right, but karma is a you-know-what, you reap what you sow, etc. Had the officials acted properly in the Vernon case, there would have been much less desire to square things up, if indeed that was what led to the Moore fire escape maneuver (stop, drop, roll).

[CameronBlue]

The cut block was intentional and deserved a similar suspension even though I cheered Moore's vigilantism at the time. The Refs were also appropriately faulted; they failed to enforce the rules and unnecessarily increased the risk of injury in a very violent sport. Duke needed to raise the nasty as another poster intimated--Moore we luv ya dude, cry me a big man-sized tear--but you never leave it to the players' judgment to decide when vengeance is appropriate and proportional. That rarely works well.

[Newton_14]

Now apparently there is a controversy that Duke's Brian Moore is alleged to have done an illegal cut block, which upon looking at the evidence looks like a completely ridiculous claim. And of course the Carolina contingent are claiming Vernon flopped so the hit on him was okay.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/uncnow/unc-cb-jabari-price-on-tim-jackson-cut-block-play-it-was-a-nasty-play-and-something-should-be

Wow. Even with undisputable video evidence, the new Carolina Way kicks in. From that article


Price was asked about both the play on which Jackson suffered his injury, as well as the play when Rashad ran into Vernon.
“I mean, it’s a rivalry game,” Price said. “There’s going to be some emotions flying – whether [Vernon] faked the fall or not. But he came back in the next play, so I’ll let you be the judge of that. But I feel like what happened to Tim was – it was unfortunate. And I hope he bounces back and I hope action is taken.”

Seriously? That's the new world we live in? A UNC person sees that video, and comes away with the view that Rashad did not run him down intentionally, and not only that, Conner faked the whole thing. Rashad actually never made contact, and Conner flopped to the ground.

Oh how the might have fallen from grace.... Integrity went out the window a long time ago...

[sagegrouse]

Wow. Even with undisputable video evidence, the new Carolina Way kicks in. From that article



Seriously? That's the new world we live in? A UNC person sees that video, and comes away with the view that Rashad did not run him down intentionally, and not only that, Conner faked the whole thing. Rashad actually never made contact, and Conner flopped to the ground.

Oh how the might have fallen from grace.... Integrity went out the window a long time ago...

Translation: Excuses are for losers. -- sage

[BigWayne]

I am 50/50 on whether Rashad should be suspended. He should have certainly been penalized on the play.
The obvious minimum is an encroachment penalty for making contact prior to the snap. However, as he hit Vernon
in the back, it should be a defensive illegal contact (automatic 1st down) or personal foul. To make the suspension,
the league must have decided there was intent to injure.

Where I think the league missed is in the referee suspensions. How the Referee, Jeff Heaser, is untouched in this I don't understand.
You can see him explaining it to Cutcliffe in the clip, which must have been the running backwards explanation. How he can
explain the contact as being OK and not encroachment because he was running backwards is just unfathomable. Even if
you had some twisted way of saying it was OK because it was unintentional encroachment, then it should be a delay of game penalty.
How the side judge and the head linesman get suspended and the referee is not, I just can't noodle out.

[Newton_14]

I am 50/50 on whether Rashad should be suspended. He should have certainly been penalized on the play.
The obvious minimum is an encroachment penalty for making contact prior to the snap. However, as he hit Vernon
in the back, it should be a defensive illegal contact (automatic 1st down) or personal foul. To make the suspension,
the league must have decided there was intent to injure.

Where I think the league missed is in the referee suspensions. How the Referee, Jeff Heaser, is untouched in this I don't understand.
You can see him explaining it to Cutcliffe in the clip, which must have been the running backwards explanation. How he can
explain the contact as being OK and not encroachment because he was running backwards is just unfathomable. Even if
you had some twisted way of saying it was OK because it was unintentional encroachment, then it should be a delay of game penalty.
How the side judge and the head linesman get suspended and the referee is not, I just can't noodle out.

I don't think it has to be intent to injure to warrant suspension. It was clear intent to hit a defenseless player in a dead ball situation. That would warrant getting tossed out of the game, even with no intent to injure. Had the officials done that Saturday Evening, then the ACC does not have to act.

It's just something a player cannot do. That could have been a career ending knee injury to Conner. I think the ACC had no choice but to take the actions they took today.

[Acymetric]

I am 50/50 on whether Rashad should be suspended. He should have certainly been penalized on the play.
The obvious minimum is an encroachment penalty for making contact prior to the snap. However, as he hit Vernon
in the back, it should be a defensive illegal contact (automatic 1st down) or personal foul. To make the suspension,
the league must have decided there was intent to injure.

Where I think the league missed is in the referee suspensions. How the Referee, Jeff Heaser, is untouched in this I don't understand.
You can see him explaining it to Cutcliffe in the clip, which must have been the running backwards explanation. How he can
explain the contact as being OK and not encroachment because he was running backwards is just unfathomable. Even if
you had some twisted way of saying it was OK because it was unintentional encroachment, then it should be a delay of game penalty.
How the side judge and the head linesman get suspended and the referee is not, I just can't noodle out.

Perhaps the Referee didn't see the play at all and was simply relaying the explanation given to him by the other official(s) who did "see" it. Not sure I buy my own theory there but its the only way those suspensions make sense to me.

[BigWayne]

I don't think it has to be intent to injure to warrant suspension. It was clear intent to hit a defenseless player in a dead ball situation. That would warrant getting tossed out of the game, even with no intent to injure. Had the officials done that Saturday Evening, then the ACC does not have to act.

It's just something a player cannot do. That could have been a career ending knee injury to Conner. I think the ACC had no choice but to take the actions they took today. Agree with your analysis. It really needed to be dealt with by the officials then and there. Sadly, they didn't do their job so the league has to try to mop up the mess later.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Rashad apologizes.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=acc&i=FB&id=46649&w=1c9c4&wjb

By the way..I would respect the apology a lot more if he had shown any concern on the field.

[oldnavy]

FWIW, and that may not be a lot, but here are some statements from UNC, including Rashad himself:

http://m.goheels.com/mobile/ViewArticle.dbml?atclid=205717847&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=&SPID=12962&DB_OEM_ID=3350

"We are certainly glad that Conner Vernon was not injured. I spoke to Shakeel in the locker room after the game and he was obviously upset about making contact, but insisted that it unintentional and a result of rushing to get on the field as quickly he could. We are disappointed with the decision to suspend him for a game. I don't understand how the co
conference can suspend a player who was involved in such an unusual play without speaking to him."

Why on earth would the conference want to speak with the player? What could he say that would change what was a cheap shot by any standard and deserved a penalty. And Bubba is the head of UNC athletics, WOW!

I take back my calling Shakeel a thug in my first post. I think his apology is the best thing to come out of Chapel Hill in a long time.

[BigWayne]

Perhaps the Referee didn't see the play at all and was simply relaying the explanation given to him by the other official(s) who did "see" it. Not sure I buy my own theory there but its the only way those suspensions make sense to me.

There's no excuse for him as the referee. He got the explanation from the other refs and then made a poor decision that there was no penalty of any kind.
The referee doesn't see most things that he is ultimately the one responsible for announcing.

The whole Duke team, all the officials, and about half the defense were ready for the play to start. If the nose tackle runs over the center at that same instant, it would have been encroachment.

The referee is essentially the manager of the crew. The other referees report to him what happened and he has to decide what to do. So I am just wondering what kind of conversation they had. The side judge and/or linesman tells him the defensive player ran over Vernon. He doesn't ask them why that is not a penalty? He doesn't ask them what was the situation, i.e. was the ball ready for play at the time? I know if the people that report to me explained a problem like that to me and I failed to take any action, I would be held accountable. I would not be able to lay the blame on them and skip merrily away.

[Newton_14]

Rashad apologizes.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=acc&i=FB&id=46649&w=1c9c4&wjb

By the way..I would respect the apology a lot more if he had shown any concern on the field.

An apology containing a lie is not an apology in my book. Until Rashad man ups and says "look, I did a bonehead thing. I took a shot at Conner out of frustration at how the game was going, and after a time of reflection, and seeing it on film, I feel horrible. I did not intend to hurt Conner, it was just a case of an overly aggressive hit and wanting to send a message. Just a dumb move on my part, and I will never do that again."

Anything less than that is lame. It was intentional, he knows it, and the whole world saw it. I even heard UNC fans calling in on the Adam Gold show on the ride home today admitting it was a dirty play and stating he should be suspended. (Of course they followed up with Moore should be suspended too)

[Merlindevildog91]

Maybe he Googled "apology" or had a tutor write it for him, but at least Rashad used the word "apologize," which is more than the mealy-mouthed Bubba and Larry did.

We need to separate this in our discussion from anything our guy may have done. Leave that comparison to the sheep people.

[devildeac]

Wow. Even with undisputable video evidence, the new Carolina Way kicks in. From that article



Seriously? That's the new world we live in? A UNC person sees that video, and comes away with the view that Rashad did not run him down intentionally, and not only that, Conner faked the whole thing. Rashad actually never made contact, and Conner flopped to the ground.

Oh how the might have fallen from grace.... Integrity went out the window a long time ago...

Well, after all, many of those maroons (sic) still think that K faked his back injury:mad:.

See "Arguing with David" youtube clip.

[dukeofcalabash]

It's truly the "Carolina Way" of old, deflect and deny.

You're exactly right, and this "Way" is possilbly an even bigger reason why they are so disrespected in the sports world.

[Turtleboy]

If you are hurrying to get somewhere, say in a grocery store or on a sidewalk, and are not paying attention, i.e., you have "tunnel vision", and suddenly realize that you are about to run into someone, your first instinct it to twist your upper body up and away from that person, not down and towards him. By lowering his shoulder into Vernon the UNC player effectively destroys the "it was unintentional" defense.

[gus]

If you are hurrying to get somewhere, say in a grocery store or on a sidewalk, and are not paying attention, i.e., you have "tunnel vision", and suddenly realize that you are about to run into someone, your first instinct it to twist your upper body up and away from that person, not down and towards him. By lowering his shoulder into Vernon the UNC player effectively destroys the "it was unintentional" defense.

These are also elite athletes, who in theory should have some spacial awareness and ability to control where their bodies are, particularly in dead ball situations.

[fitimi1]

If you are hurrying to get somewhere, say in a grocery store or on a sidewalk, and are not paying attention, i.e., you have "tunnel vision", and suddenly realize that you are about to run into someone, your first instinct it to twist your upper body up and away from that person, not down and towards him. By lowering his shoulder into Vernon the UNC player effectively destroys the "it was unintentional" defense.


And from where I came from, if one inadvertently ran (or bumped) into someone, they apologized either by word or action (like trying to help the person up that you just knocked down.) I saw no movement on the UNC player's part to help Conner.

[Verga/MullinsYears]

Unless I missed it earlier, there seems to be one important item that is being overlooked in trying to make a assessment of Rashad's intentions, namely what could have been the motivating factor behind the hit if it was intentional. I believe a more complete understanding of the game situation would be useful: Score Duke 13 - UNC 6, Duke at the UNC 34 with 2nd and 3, and -- this is the critical element that is being overlooked -- UNC has 12 men on the field! More than likely Renfree sees this and it appears Duke is setting up for a quick snap to catch UNC in a 15-yd penalty for having an extra man on the field. Problem was, Fedora saw it too, at the last second, and he sends Rashad in.

If you look closely, initially only one UNC player starts to go off the field and then, about a second later (likely because Rashad told him to get off), another Carolina player tries desperately to get off before the ball is snapped, only the 2nd guy is a slow lineman and there is no way he was going to make it in time. The result, if Renfree had taken the snap, would have been not the 15-yarder for an extra man but a 5-yarder for Illegal Substitution, still an automatic first down with 2nd and 3. But that's when another interesting thing happens.

While Vernon is on the ground trying to recover his wits, it is not the Duke players pointing at him and calling for the refs to stop the play; no, very clearly it is two Carolina defensive backs who are doing all the pointing at Vernon to induce the ref to stop play. What nice guys they must be! First, being reluctant to take advantage of an opponent's short-handed situation (obviously Duke had only 10 active players on the field) is curious enough, but when you also consider they are even drawing the ref's attention to a situation caused by their own teammate -- deliberately! --heck, I'm well on my way to nominating those two guys for sainthood.

I needn't draw this out any further, you know exactly what I'm saying. I will just add two points:

1) Someone joked about this being a "bonehead" mistake by Rashad, some even say he was trying to avoid contact. My own view is this was more like a "set play" from Fedora's playbook, if possible to be pulled out precisely when he spots a 12th man on the field and hopes he can "remedy" the situation. To borrow one of Jay's favorite sayings, reasonable minds may disagree on such nefarious intent, but my read on how this played out couldn't be clearer in my own mind.

2) The ACC officials who meted out the 1-game suspension obviously saw the 12th man on the field and understood fully the intent to have the ref stop the clock. In my view, to answer Cunningham's sanctimonious posturing about failing to understand how the conference could "suspend a player who was involved in such an unusual play without speaking to him." it is precisely because they understood the game dynamics and the underlying motivation behind the hit that they didn't bother speaking to him. Carolina's public stance on the incident was already made after the game and the conference simply didn't want to hear more lies, at least not officially told to the ACC offices. What they say for media consumption is bad enough -- hey, when you're spending $millions to three different PR agencies (all to do Kirchner's job, mind you), you've got to make it look worthwhile, right -- but the ACC, like the NCAA I believe, doesn't want any more lies being told officially to them. Let's just say it was an act of kindness: by not giving them the chance to lie this time, the ACC was only saving them from themselves.

[Duke1986]

Forgive me if this has been stated earlier, but Coach Cut just said in his weekly press conference that Conner Vernon has a strained knee as a result of the hit and could not practice at all Sunday.

[oldnavy]

Unless I missed it earlier, there seems to be one important item that is being overlooked in trying to make a assessment of Rashad's intentions, namely what could have been the motivating factor behind the hit if it was intentional. I believe a more complete understanding of the game situation would be useful: Score Duke 13 - UNC 6, Duke at the UNC 34 with 2nd and 3, and -- this is the critical element that is being overlooked -- UNC has 12 men on the field! More than likely Renfree sees this and it appears Duke is setting up for a quick snap to catch UNC in a 15-yd penalty for having an extra man on the field. Problem was, Fedora saw it too, at the last second, and he sends Rashad in.

If you look closely, initially only one UNC player starts to go off the field and then, about a second later (likely because Rashad told him to get off), another Carolina player tries desperately to get off before the ball is snapped, only the 2nd guy is a slow lineman and there is no way he was going to make it in time. The result, if Renfree had taken the snap, would have been not the 15-yarder for an extra man but a 5-yarder for Illegal Substitution, still an automatic first down with 2nd and 3. But that's when another interesting thing happens.

While Vernon is on the ground trying to recover his wits, it is not the Duke players pointing at him and calling for the refs to stop the play; no, very clearly it is two Carolina defensive backs who are doing all the pointing at Vernon to induce the ref to stop play. What nice guys they must be! First, being reluctant to take advantage of an opponent's short-handed situation (obviously Duke had only 10 active players on the field) is curious enough, but when you also consider they are even drawing the ref's attention to a situation caused by their own teammate -- deliberately! --heck, I'm well on my way to nominating those two guys for sainthood.

I needn't draw this out any further, you know exactly what I'm saying. I will just add two points:

1) Someone joked about this being a "bonehead" mistake by Rashad, some even say he was trying to avoid contact. My own view is this was more like a "set play" from Fedora's playbook, if possible to be pulled out precisely when he spots a 12th man on the field and hopes he can "remedy" the situation. To borrow one of Jay's favorite sayings, reasonable minds may disagree on such nefarious intent, but my read on how this played out couldn't be clearer in my own mind.

2) The ACC officials who meted out the 1-game suspension obviously saw the 12th man on the field and understood fully the intent to have the ref stop the clock. In my view, to answer Cunningham's sanctimonious posturing about failing to understand how the conference could "suspend a player who was involved in such an unusual play without speaking to him." it is precisely because they understood the game dynamics and the underlying motivation behind the hit that they didn't bother speaking to him. Carolina's public stance on the incident was already made after the game and the conference simply didn't want to hear more lies, at least not officially told to the ACC offices. What they say for media consumption is bad enough -- hey, when you're spending $millions to three different PR agencies (all to do Kirchner's job, mind you), you've got to make it look worthwhile, right -- but the ACC, like the NCAA I believe, doesn't want any more lies being told officially to them. Let's just say it was an act of kindness: by not giving them the chance to lie this time, the ACC was only saving them from themselves.

You may be right, but I think that you are over thinking this. I truly believe that Shakeel fully intended to hit Vernon, there is NO DOUBT in my mind that he did it on purpose. But to believe that Fedora has this in his "playbook" gives him and the UNC staff too much credit IMO. I don't think they are smart enough to have such a play, nor do I think that they would be quick enough to pull it off if they did.

[Highlander]

My 0.02c.

I don't think the hit was intentional. As Vernon is getting into his stance, he actually steps backwards into the path of Rashad. It looks as if the first part of them to make contact is their legs. From there, Rashad trips into Vernon's back.

Now, that being said, it was at the very least encroachment and probably more appropriately a dead ball personal foul penalty. You cannot make contact with an offensive player pre-snap, even if it is unintentional. Period. To swallow your whistle there only made the game get more chippy.

Moore's hit to me looks worse. He doesn't appear to trip at all. To me, it looks like he jumps backward into a prone position (both legs go back at the same time), then he falls to the ground and immediately rolls into the guy he is blocking.

Now, that being said, I'm not sure there was anything illegal about Moore's hit. You're allowed to chop block someone as long as they aren't engaged with a secondary player. So I don't see how you can suspend or penalize a player for doing something that isn't illegal.

I'm sorry the UNC player got hurt on the play, and I'm glad Vernon wasn't. I don't think Moore was intentionally trying to hurt someone anymore than I think Rashad was intentionally trying to hurt Vernon or Gerald Henderson was intentionally trying to hurt Hansbrough with "the elbow." I can sympathize with those who think it was a cheap shot and will never see it any other way. To you I make the point that it's exactly how UNC felt when Henderson broke Hansbrough's nose, and we here all vigorously defended him and the swipe as an unfortunate accident.

Both were suspended a game. I think that it's justified in both cases.

[SmartDevil]

In any situation like this--no matter who the teams are--I think the suspension from the game immediately following against a different opponent should be matched by a disqualification from the next game which the two teams involved in the incident play. That might be the following year or year after or the hit man might escape the additional punishment if the teams don't play again during his college tenure. In very rare cases the "disqualification" game might be the conference championship game.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

My 0.02c.

I don't think the hit was intentional. As Vernon is getting into his stance, he actually steps backwards into the path of Rashad. It looks as if the first part of them to make contact is their legs. From there, Rashad trips into Vernon's back.

Now, that being said, it was at the very least encroachment and probably more appropriately a dead ball personal foul penalty. You cannot make contact with an offensive player pre-snap, even if it is unintentional. Period. To swallow your whistle there only made the game get more chippy.

Moore's hit to me looks worse. He doesn't appear to trip at all. To me, it looks like he jumps backward into a prone position (both legs go back at the same time), then he falls to the ground and immediately rolls into the guy he is blocking.

Now, that being said, I'm not sure there was anything illegal about Moore's hit. You're allowed to chop block someone as long as they aren't engaged with a secondary player. So I don't see how you can suspend or penalize a player for doing something that isn't illegal.

I'm sorry the UNC player got hurt on the play, and I'm glad Vernon wasn't. I don't think Moore was intentionally trying to hurt someone anymore than I think Rashad was intentionally trying to hurt Vernon or Gerald Henderson was intentionally trying to hurt Hansbrough with "the elbow." I can sympathize with those who think it was a cheap shot and will never see it any other way. To you I make the point that it's exactly how UNC felt when Henderson broke Hansbrough's nose, and we here all vigorously defended him and the swipe as an unfortunate accident.

Both were suspended a game. I think that it's justified in both cases.

Conner has not practiced yet this week.... at least the last I heard.

[Nugget]

Yes, the circumstances definitely lead me to believe that the cut block was intentional. But the thing is, it's happening during the middle of a football play, albeit away from the action. But can the ACC punish Moore for what could have been incidental vs. what was most likely intentional (Rashad)?

Do I think Moore was being overly aggressive with Jackson? Heck yes. Was it anticipated/predictable? Heck yes. Was he intentionally trying to hurt Jackson as payback? verrrrrry hard to prove.

My own view is that Moore's cut block was undoubtedly intentional, as was Rashad's knockdown on Vernon. Characterizing Moore's block as occuring "during the middle of a football play" is, I think, a massively charitable, dark blue lenses, interpretation. It was not even close to the action and Moore well knew that there was no chance the guy he was blocking was going to end up anywhere near that play. I think it was crystal clear it was retaliation.

While I do not think Moore was attempting to hurt Jackson, in my view the most reasonable interpretation is that what he was going for is an "eye for an eye" type equivalence in terms of making a hit that was equally as reckless to the possibility of injury as that made by Rashad on Vernon.

[killerleft]

My 0.02c.

I don't think the hit was intentional. As Vernon is getting into his stance, he actually steps backwards into the path of Rashad. It looks as if the first part of them to make contact is their legs. From there, Rashad trips into Vernon's back.

Now, that being said, it was at the very least encroachment and probably more appropriately a dead ball personal foul penalty. You cannot make contact with an offensive player pre-snap, even if it is unintentional. Period. To swallow your whistle there only made the game get more chippy.

Moore's hit to me looks worse. He doesn't appear to trip at all. To me, it looks like he jumps backward into a prone position (both legs go back at the same time), then he falls to the ground and immediately rolls into the guy he is blocking.

Now, that being said, I'm not sure there was anything illegal about Moore's hit. You're allowed to chop block someone as long as they aren't engaged with a secondary player. So I don't see how you can suspend or penalize a player for doing something that isn't illegal.

I'm sorry the UNC player got hurt on the play, and I'm glad Vernon wasn't. I don't think Moore was intentionally trying to hurt someone anymore than I think Rashad was intentionally trying to hurt Vernon or Gerald Henderson was intentionally trying to hurt Hansbrough with "the elbow." I can sympathize with those who think it was a cheap shot and will never see it any other way. To you I make the point that it's exactly how UNC felt when Henderson broke Hansbrough's nose, and we here all vigorously defended him and the swipe as an unfortunate accident.

Both were suspended a game. I think that it's justified in both cases.

I'm with you. Doesn't really matter, though, the league has spoken. Who can be unhappy when a Tar Heel is punished? It happens so infrequently.

[moonpie23]

I'm with you. Doesn't really matter, though, the league has spoken. Who can be unhappy when a Tar Heel is punished? It happens so infrequently.

82-50

[bob blue devil]

i am utterly dumbfounded that anyone aside from a carolina fan would argue that rashad's hit was not intentional. vernon didn't step into a full collision by getting himself set, rashad didn't trip over vernon's leg and then fall into him, and rashad certainly didn't try to avoid contact by lowering his shoulder.

very simply, you cannot accidentally slam into someone like that and not break stride, which is what some are arguing rashad did. rashad knew contact was coming and put his body in a position to accept the contact and keep running instead of putting his body in a position to avoid contact.

to be fair, i don't think this makes rashad a terrible person, he just made a bonehead play in the heat of the moment. he got his 1 game suspension, which feels about right. i'm happy to let this go and hope vernon's knee is feeling better.

[oldnavy]

My 0.02c.

I don't think the hit was intentional. As Vernon is getting into his stance, he actually steps backwards into the path of Rashad. It looks as if the first part of them to make contact is their legs. From there, Rashad trips into Vernon's back.

Now, that being said, it was at the very least encroachment and probably more appropriately a dead ball personal foul penalty. You cannot make contact with an offensive player pre-snap, even if it is unintentional. Period. To swallow your whistle there only made the game get more chippy.

Moore's hit to me looks worse. He doesn't appear to trip at all. To me, it looks like he jumps backward into a prone position (both legs go back at the same time), then he falls to the ground and immediately rolls into the guy he is blocking.

Now, that being said, I'm not sure there was anything illegal about Moore's hit. You're allowed to chop block someone as long as they aren't engaged with a secondary player. So I don't see how you can suspend or penalize a player for doing something that isn't illegal.

I'm sorry the UNC player got hurt on the play, and I'm glad Vernon wasn't. I don't think Moore was intentionally trying to hurt someone anymore than I think Rashad was intentionally trying to hurt Vernon or Gerald Henderson was intentionally trying to hurt Hansbrough with "the elbow." I can sympathize with those who think it was a cheap shot and will never see it any other way. To you I make the point that it's exactly how UNC felt when Henderson broke Hansbrough's nose, and we here all vigorously defended him and the swipe as an unfortunate accident.

Both were suspended a game. I think that it's justified in both cases.

Veron does step back about a 1/2 step, but Shakeel was on a path to hit him even before that. Shakeel had a good 10 yard head start, he should have never been that close to Vernon in the first place. There may have been more contact than he intended, but I would bet the house that he intended to "brush" Vernon at the very least, otherwise why be that close??

[Lar77]

82-50

Cruel and unusual, but it fit the crime.:)

[WakeDevil]

From my cousin the UNC grad and regional vice-president for a pharma company. Excuse the types, as it does not indicate lack of of education on his part:


I was at the game sitting 10 rows off the field on the side of the stadium closest to the play (section 5 ) I believe and happened to see it happen. Watch the Duke player #2 stick his rear end out to create contact with the Carolina player. I don't know how it would have played out if he had not stuck his butt out as the Carolina player went by but #2 definitely created a larger area of contact with what he did.

My take on it is that UNC #42 was going to brush by him pretty close (as you see quite a bit nowadays with trash talk) and "nick" him but #2 's action created the play.

Now let's talk about the Academy award #2 is up for. I have never seen recoveries of that magnitude since I watched Ernest Angely. He went from writhing on the field to running great patterns and having a great game. In fact I believe up to that point he had not had one reception.

Please, I wish I had scene a Carolina player deliver a blow that powerful Sat night. That pate of their problem. Rumor had it from Andrew who went to the bar everyone at Duke goes to Shooters (that in of itself is sad) that #2 was cutting a pretty good rug after the game

I've watched the replay. How can anyone make the claim that Vernon could see the player enter the field. Vernon was looking the other way.

[budwom]

From my cousin the UNC grad and regional vice-president for a pharma company. Excuse the types, as it does not indicate lack of of education on his part:


I was at the game sitting 10 rows off the field on the side of the stadium closest to the play (section 5 ) I believe and happened to see it happen. Watch the Duke player #2 stick his rear end out to create contact with the Carolina player. I don't know how it would have played out if he had not stuck his butt out as the Carolina player went by but #2 definitely created a larger area of contact with what he did.

My take on it is that UNC #42 was going to brush by him pretty close (as you see quite a bit nowadays with trash talk) and "nick" him but #2 's action created the play.

Now let's talk about the Academy award #2 is up for. I have never seen recoveries of that magnitude since I watched Ernest Angely. He went from writhing on the field to running great patterns and having a great game. In fact I believe up to that point he had not had one reception.

Please, I wish I had scene a Carolina player deliver a blow that powerful Sat night. That pate of their problem. Rumor had it from Andrew who went to the bar everyone at Duke goes to Shooters (that in of itself is sad) that #2 was cutting a pretty good rug after the game

I've watched the replay. How can anyone make the claim that Vernon could see the player enter the field. Vernon was looking the other way.

Cousin Dude has been dipping into the Pharma products a bit too much would be my diagnosis.

[Olympic Fan]

From my cousin the UNC grad and regional vice-president for a pharma company. Excuse the types, as it does not indicate lack of of education on his part:


I was at the game sitting 10 rows off the field on the side of the stadium closest to the play (section 5 ) I believe and happened to see it happen. Watch the Duke player #2 stick his rear end out to create contact with the Carolina player. I don't know how it would have played out if he had not stuck his butt out as the Carolina player went by but #2 definitely created a larger area of contact with what he did.

My take on it is that UNC #42 was going to brush by him pretty close (as you see quite a bit nowadays with trash talk) and "nick" him but #2 's action created the play.

Now let's talk about the Academy award #2 is up for. I have never seen recoveries of that magnitude since I watched Ernest Angely. He went from writhing on the field to running great patterns and having a great game. In fact I believe up to that point he had not had one reception.

Please, I wish I had scene a Carolina player deliver a blow that powerful Sat night. That pate of their problem. Rumor had it from Andrew who went to the bar everyone at Duke goes to Shooters (that in of itself is sad) that #2 was cutting a pretty good rug after the game
I've watched the replay. How can anyone make the claim that Vernon could see the player enter the field. Vernon was looking the other way.



It's amazing who the Carolina fans have tried to spin this -- either by talking about how Vernon (1) caused the collission; (2) flopped to exaggerate contact or (3) faked being hurt.

It's true that he courageously came back and played the rest of the game with an injured knee -- making two key third-down catches on the winning drive. But tell your cousin the UNC grad that everything else is wrong. Vernon already had two catches before the injury -- one for 13 yards and first down on Duke's first TD drive and one for 35 yards to set up Duke's first field goal.

As for the "Academy Award" and "cutting a pretty good rug" after the game, that's pure UNC fantasy. Vernon in fact spent Saturday night and almost all day Sunday and again Monday in treatment. His knee was so badly injured that he did not practice Sunday and was only able to do some light work Tuesday morning (Monday is the team's day off).

Every non-UNC fan in the world -- including the ESPN announcer at the game and the ACC office that reviewed the tape -- can see that it was a blatant cheap shot. And despite the UNC spin that Vernon was faking, he WAS hurt -- he's just such a tough hombre that he was able to return and play. But he's hurting ... while he may be able to play Saturday, so far he's been unable to practice.

PS Despite UNC's PR blitz about an apology and all that, Duke has not received ONE world of apology from UNC. They "semi-apologized" in a press release ... but not to Duke or Conner Vernon.

I kills me -- a once classy program is now a bunch of thugs and cheats.

[jimsumner]

It's amazing who the Carolina fans have tried to spin this -- either by talking about how Vernon (1) caused the collission; (2) flopped to exaggerate contact or (3) faked being hurt.

It's true that he courageously came back and played the rest of the game with an injured knee -- making two key third-down catches on the winning drive. But tell your cousin the UNC grad that everything else is wrong. Vernon already had two catches before the injury -- one for 13 yards and first down on Duke's first TD drive and one for 35 yards to set up Duke's first field goal.

As for the "Academy Award" and "cutting a pretty good rug" after the game, that's pure UNC fantasy. Vernon in fact spent Saturday night and almost all day Sunday and again Monday in treatment. His knee was so badly injured that he did not practice Sunday and was only able to do some light work Tuesday morning (Monday is the team's day off).

Every non-UNC fan in the world -- including the ESPN announcer at the game and the ACC office that reviewed the tape -- can see that it was a blatant cheap shot. And despite the UNC spin that Vernon was faking, he WAS hurt -- he's just such a tough hombre that he was able to return and play. But he's hurting ... while he may be able to play Saturday, so far he's been unable to practice.

PS Despite UNC's PR blitz about an apology and all that, Duke has not received ONE world of apology from UNC. They "semi-apologized" in a press release ... but not to Duke or Conner Vernon.

I kills me -- a once classy program is now a bunch of thugs and cheats.

Note that Renner and Bernard both went out with injuries and returned a few plays later. No one has accused them of faking injuries.

Walt Canty got buried tackling Beranrd, didn't move for a minute, left the game and came back a few plays later.

This happens in every single football game, over and over and over. But when Vernon leaves and comes back, it's because he was selling a bogus foul.

Does not pass the smell test.

[Dev11]

They "semi-apologized" in a press release ... but not to Duke or Conner Vernon.

Actually, Rashad did apologize to Conner in his statement:


I want to apologize to Duke's Conner Vernon for running into him during Saturday's game. I was in a hurry to get on the field and focused on where I was going. I have been playing football for most of my life and I have never been involved in that type of incident. I did not mean to run into him and I'm glad he was not hurt. He's a great receiver and I wish him the best.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8538995/acc-suspends-unc-tar-heels-shakeel-rashad-multiple-officials

I don't think Rashad meant to blow Conner up, but it does seem like he brushed by to give him a little business. If nothing else, this reflects horribly on the nearby referees, and good on the ACC for suspending them. If the league didn't talk to Rashad before handing down the suspension, that seems a little wrong to me. I think the kid got caught in a bad spot that he didn't mean to be that bad, although he looked pretty silly ignoring his mistake and getting daps from a teammate for it.

That said, I don't think the head coach and athletic director over on the hill did a good job on their statements. They were simply disappointed at the process and the outcome, nothing about how they could it as a teaching moment. "Hey team, watch where you are going, and when you screw up, own up. Let's not act like a bunch of jerks on national tv, ok?" I place the blame of the moment on the refs and of the aftermath on the guys with the paychecks.

[Olympic Fan]

Actually, Rashad did apologize to Conner in his statement:


So that's your take on an apology? Issue a press release?

I repeat -- Duke has not heard from UNC or Rashad ...

[OZ]

I don't think Rashad meant to blow Conner up, but it does seem like he brushed by to give him a little business.


I have no way of knowing for certain what Rashad was thinking or what his intentions were. I ONLY know what I saw during the game and numerous times on tape. What I saw was a player running straight at Conner, lowering his shoulder and then running away leaving him on the ground. I would think (hope), that if that were truly accidental, Rashad would have stopped immediately and/or returned to Conner and apologized. Instead he went to his side of the field and received kudos from a couple of players. What I do think is that he got what he deserved as did the refs.

I still think the refs were punished for the fabricated story offered to Cut, during the game, as reason for their not flagging Rashad (I read on this board that Gut was told that Rashad was running on the field backwards while talking to his coach and accidentally ran into Conner). If it is true that Cut was told that, then the refs either saw the play and fabicated another story; or they missed it and made something up. Either way they would be guilty of inappropriate conduct themselves.

[billy]

UNC has 12 men on the field! More than likely Renfree sees this and it appears Duke is setting up for a quick snap to catch UNC in a 15-yd penalty for having an extra man on the field. Problem was, Fedora saw it too, at the last second, and he sends Rashad in.

If you look closely, initially only one UNC player starts to go off the field and then, about a second later (likely because Rashad told him to get off), another Carolina player tries desperately to get off before the ball is snapped, only the 2nd guy is a slow lineman and there is no way he was going to make it in time. The result, if Renfree had taken the snap, would have been not the 15-yarder for an extra man but a 5-yarder for Illegal Substitution, still an automatic first down with 2nd and 3. But that's when another interesting thing happens.

While Vernon is on the ground trying to recover his wits, it is not the Duke players pointing at him and calling for the refs to stop the play; no, very clearly it is two Carolina defensive backs who are doing all the pointing at Vernon to induce the ref to stop play. What nice guys they must be! First, being reluctant to take advantage of an opponent's short-handed situation (obviously Duke had only 10 active players on the field) is curious enough, but when you also consider they are even drawing the ref's attention to a situation caused by their own teammate -- deliberately! --heck, I'm well on my way to nominating those two guys for sainthood.

I thought this was pure fantasy until I read Fedora's quote from today's News and Observer article:

“I promise [you], there was none of, ‘Hey, let me run into this guy and that will stop the play before it gets started,’” Fedora said. “There was no malice at all.”

Makes me wonder....

[DevilWearsPrada]

I hope Conner will be able to play this Saturday, as he hasn't practiced with the team, since playing Saturday night. The Cheap Shot did NOT look like an accident to me.

Any Word on Conner's Status?

Go Duke! GTHC!

[cspan37421]

From my cousin the UNC grad and regional vice-president for a pharma company. Excuse the types, as it does not indicate lack of of education on his part:


[Quoting cousin] Please, I wish I had scene a Carolina player deliver a blow that powerful Sat night.

JMO, but using "scene" instead of "seen" isn't a typo, that's not knowing the right word.

[OldPhiKap]

FWIW, my take is that the kid was trying to get across the line and into position before the snap, and Duke was in a hurry-up offense. I find it hard to believe that he would try to take a blatant cheap shot out in the open.

I may hate the boys in baby blue, but sometimes they do things that are just dumb -- not malicious.

[bjornolf]

1. Okay, let's take intent out of this for a moment. Even if his back was turned and he tripped over Vernon, it's still a 5 yard encroachment or delay of game penalty, which would have resulted in a first down, as the official had marked the ball ready for play. Not at least calling that is unforgiveable and incompetent. Adding intent back in, if the ref decides intent to hit and not just accidental touching, it should be a 15 yard penalty and possibly an ejection.

2. Your Carolina cousin's lack of understanding of the sport of football should prevent him from making comments about it. Sadly, it does not. Vernon did not stick his butt out to create contact. He ran to his spot and then got in his stance, extending his off leg back. If your cousin had ever watched a football game and actually observed receivers, he would know that 90% of college and pro receivers do it that exact same way. This is to make sure they get their front foot right at the line without accidentally being over it. You'll also notice they often point their finger to the ref, asking him if they are on or off the line. The ref will hold up his downfield or upfield hand to show the player his opinion. The timing of Vernon's leg going back was very unfortunate, as it led to his knee getting crunched. If he'd seen it coming, believe me, he wouldn't have put his leg in such a vulnerable position. Sticking it back as if to trip or kick someone is a very different act than firmly planting it in the turf with your weight on it, which is what Vernon did. Only an idiot would risk his leg that way. Vernon is not an idiot.

3. A defensive player should never come through the offensive backfield once the offense has broken huddle. At the very least, he is risking an offsides penalty if the ball is snapped before he crosses the line. This is inexcusable. And why, if there are already 12 men on the field, would UNC be ADDING players right as the offense is lining up? Call timeout if you don't want a penalty.

4. To the guy with the conspiracy theory... Unless they've changed the rule since I played in '93, 12 men is a 5 yard penalty, same as offsides. Always has been. It is a procedural penalty, NOT a personal foul. Either would have resulted in a first down with that down and distance. Any decent coach either takes the penalty or burns a timeout there. He doesn't send a guy out to hit an opponent. That's risking a 15 yarder and possibly an ejection. The coach wouldn't have gambled that the refs were incompetent enough to miss it completely. Risking a 15 yard penalty and ejection to avoid a 5 yard penalty is not something any sane coach would do. If he thought the refs were that incompetent, he'd just chance it that the refs missed the count. They do more often than you'd think, especially in hurry up situations where the defense is trying to sub.

[Devil549]

How in the world did he not run around Vernon? He had to have seen Vernon one step either way and he does not hit Vernon at all. He did not trip and fall into Vernon he ran thru him. The ACC does not need to talk with the kid his actions when he ran into CV and his "high 5s" with team mates tell the story. He would have told ACC I did not do it on purpose but he still ran over CV.

I am just surprised the ACC did anything to a Unc student-athlete.....I mean athlete.

[bob blue devil]

I find it hard to believe that he would try to take a blatant cheap shot out in the open.

sorry for giving you a bit of a hard time, but why do you think this? blatant cheap shots occur pretty regularly in sport - we could certainly have a fun list of more blatant cheap shots than what rashad did; junk punches alone would be its own category, as would the really weird, think ear bites.

i think rashad wanted to give vernon the business or wanted to delay the impending snap and, in that brief moment, thought he could make the collision look accidental (which it doesn't in my opinion).

i am in agreement with you that rashad probably deserves the benefit of the doubt in that his action probably wasn't malicious as in "intent to injure" - you don't usually injure someone by running them over/there are more effective ways to injure; but it was probably malicious in other ways.

[devildeac]

sorry for giving you a bit of a hard time, but why do you think this? blatant cheap shots occur pretty regularly in sport - we could certainly have a fun list of more blatant cheap shots than what rashad did; junk punches alone would be its own category, as would the really weird, think ear bites.

i think rashad wanted to give vernon the business or wanted to delay the impending snap and, in that brief moment, thought he could make the collision look accidental (which it doesn't in my opinion).

i am in agreement with you that rashad probably deserves the benefit of the doubt in that his action probably wasn't malicious as in "intent to injure" - you don't usually injure someone by running them over/there are more effective ways to injure; but it was probably malicious in other ways.

Sounds like he was unintentionally injurious then as some folks here have reported that Vernon has missed some practice this week due to an injury he suffered during the "collision." Color me shocked that some penalties came about from the play but that the suspensions appear to fit the offense.

[bob blue devil]

Sounds like he was unintentionally injurious then as some folks here have reported that Vernon has missed some practice this week due to an injury he suffered during the "collision."

that is exactly what i believe, yes. but, obviously, i cannot tell you what rashad was thinking.

[moonpie23]

when i look at the replay, i get the sense that he (unc) was behind in the game....thought that was BS to be behind, was coming onto the field and conner was in the most direct path (aka shortest distance to the point he wanted to be) and since he was bigger, stronger and pro material, he was just gonna take that route and "bump" conner out of the way if conner didn't move..


strictly an ego bump...

[bjornolf]

i am in agreement with you that rashad probably deserves the benefit of the doubt in that his action probably wasn't malicious as in "intent to injure" - you don't usually injure someone by running them over/there are more effective ways to injure; but it was probably malicious in other ways.

I think that the accidental part was the injury in the unfortunate timing of Vernon going into his stance. From the video, Vernon is in the middle of going into his stance and putting his leg back when he is struck, causing his weight and Rashad's to come down on his leg awkwardly. I think Rashad meant to hit him, but if Vernon hadn't gone to his stance, his leg wouldn't have been in harm's way and it just would have been a silly bump. I don't think he would have even fallen if his weight weren't in that awkward transition when the hit came. The timing was everything here. That part I think was accidental on Rashad's part. Watch the youtube video again, paying close attention to Vernon's left knee and ankle. That's where the damage came, and that's the part that I think was accidental by Rashad. It was still reckless and dangerous by Rashad, but I don't think it was intent to injure. Watch his body position. His upper body is in position to hit Vernon, but his legs trip over Vernon's. He wasn't expecting Vernon to step back at that very second.

I will further say that Vernon should sit out against FSU. We're not winning that game with or without him, and if those guys smell blood, you know they're going after that knee. Let him rest and heal and come back 100% for Clemson.

[OldPhiKap]

sorry for giving you a bit of a hard time, but why do you think this? blatant cheap shots occur pretty regularly in sport - we could certainly have a fun list of more blatant cheap shots than what rashad did; junk punches alone would be its own category, as would the really weird, think ear bites.

Fair question. Let's put aside different sports for a second (and Mike Tyson is his own category). If I am a DB and I want to hurt a receiver, I have plenty of chances to do so: in the pile, a helmet-to-helmet tackle, racking him on a crossing pattern, or giving him a bang on an attempted blocking assignment away from the ball. This was during an attempt to shuffle in a different defensive set against our no-huddle, out in front of everyone where the only movement on the field was happening. Too great a risk of getting caught. Is that where you want to take a chance with a fifteen yard personal foul and automatic first down, and maybe get tossed for initiating contact while there was no active play?

I understand if folks saw it differently, and I am not the one to sit here and defend Carolina. They can all go to Hell as far as I am concerned. But I just find it tough to believe that the kid intentionally tried to lay Connor out under these circumstances.

[PSurprise]

Fair question. Let's put aside different sports for a second (and Mike Tyson is his own category). If I am a DB and I want to hurt a receiver, I have plenty of chances to do so: in the pile, a helmet-to-helmet tackle, racking him on a crossing pattern, or giving him a bang on an attempted blocking assignment away from the ball. This was during an attempt to shuffle in a different defensive set against our no-huddle, out in front of everyone where the only movement on the field was happening. Too great a risk of getting caught. Is that where you want to take a chance with a fifteen yard personal foul and automatic first down, and maybe get tossed for initiating contact while there was no active play?

I understand if folks saw it differently, and I am not the one to sit here and defend Carolina. They can all go to Hell as far as I am concerned. But I just find it tough to believe that the kid intentionally tried to lay Connor out under these circumstances.

Remember...this is a UNC football player we're talking about. I don't think all those ideas went through his head. I don't think he put a lot of thought into it. I think he saw an opportunity and took it, consequences be darned.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Fair question. Let's put aside different sports for a second (and Mike Tyson is his own category). If I am a DB and I want to hurt a receiver, I have plenty of chances to do so: in the pile, a helmet-to-helmet tackle, racking him on a crossing pattern, or giving him a bang on an attempted blocking assignment away from the ball. This was during an attempt to shuffle in a different defensive set against our no-huddle, out in front of everyone where the only movement on the field was happening. Too great a risk of getting caught. Is that where you want to take a chance with a fifteen yard personal foul and automatic first down, and maybe get tossed for initiating contact while there was no active play?

I understand if folks saw it differently, and I am not the one to sit here and defend Carolina. They can all go to Hell as far as I am concerned. But I just find it tough to believe that the kid intentionally tried to lay Connor out under these circumstances.

I understand your comment, but where do the high fives after the hit fit in?

[Dukeface88]

1. Okay, let's take intent out of this for a moment. Even if his back was turned and he tripped over Vernon, it's still a 5 yard encroachment or delay of game penalty, which would have resulted in a first down, as the official had marked the ball ready for play. Not at least calling that is unforgiveable and incompetent. Adding intent back in, if the ref decides intent to hit and not just accidental touching, it should be a 15 yard penalty and possibly an ejection.



Frankly, I think it should have been 15 yard either way. AFAIK, a hit after the play is whistled dead is a personal foul regardless of intent; this one just happened later than the vast majority of those. The only thing intent would decide is whether he should have been ejected.

Also, I don't think the claim Vernon was faking even warrants a response.

[killerleft]

I think that the accidental part was the injury in the unfortunate timing of Vernon going into his stance. From the video, Vernon is in the middle of going into his stance and putting his leg back when he is struck, causing his weight and Rashad's to come down on his leg awkwardly. I think Rashad meant to hit him, but if Vernon hadn't gone to his stance, his leg wouldn't have been in harm's way and it just would have been a silly bump. I don't think he would have even fallen if his weight weren't in that awkward transition when the hit came. The timing was everything here. That part I think was accidental on Rashad's part. Watch the youtube video again, paying close attention to Vernon's left knee and ankle. That's where the damage came, and that's the part that I think was accidental by Rashad. It was still reckless and dangerous by Rashad, but I don't think it was intent to injure. Watch his body position. His upper body is in position to hit Vernon, but his legs trip over Vernon's. He wasn't expecting Vernon to step back at that very second.

I will further say that Vernon should sit out against FSU. We're not winning that game with or without him, and if those guys smell blood, you know they're going after that knee. Let him rest and heal and come back 100% for Clemson.

Not if I'm the coach, not if Cut's the coach. I doubt very seriously whether Coach Cut has given up on this game, and I'm not sure I want him as coach if he has. This isn't NFL playoff football, and I hate when they do it then. Smacks of a lack of integrity and no respect shown to the team you're playing. And, as others have said before me, I'd hate to be the man stopping a healthy Conner Vernon from playing against anybody, but especially a Florida team.

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Not if I'm the coach, not if Cut's the coach. I doubt very seriously whether Coach Cut has given up on this game, and I'm not sure I want him as coach if he has. This isn't NFL playoff football, and I hate when they do it then. Smacks of a lack of integrity and no respect shown to the team you're playing. And, as others have said before me, I'd hate to be the man stopping a healthy Conner Vernon from playing against anybody, but especially a Florida team.

I agree. It's a chance to shine against a formidable team, and if he's healthy, no coach worth the title would keep him from such an opportunity.

Think if it wasn't that way. Can you see the recruiting pitch? "Hey kid, we'll make sure you pad your stats against creampuffs, and we'll hold you out of the tougher games so you don't get hurt." Why not extend that reasoning and tell all the starters to stay at home?

[bjornolf]

Not if I'm the coach, not if Cut's the coach. I doubt very seriously whether Coach Cut has given up on this game, and I'm not sure I want him as coach if he has. This isn't NFL playoff football, and I hate when they do it then. Smacks of a lack of integrity and no respect shown to the team you're playing. And, as others have said before me, I'd hate to be the man stopping a healthy Conner Vernon from playing against anybody, but especially a Florida team.

I'm not saying Duke shouldn't try to win. I'm not saying the team should believe they can't win. I'm not saying a 100% Vernon shouldn't play. However, if he's NOT 100% and he has to go out there with a taped and braced leg, I don't want him to risk further injury playing those guys. Respect be darned, I've seen what FSU players have done to guys trying to gut through an injury playing them. It's scary. They're like sharks that smell blood in the water. As a guy who has watched what they do, I have very little respect for them. I respect their talent. You'd be crazy if you didn't. However, I do not respect their lack of sportsmanship in seeking the W at any cost. If Vernon hasn't practiced yet this week, which is what some are saying, I don't see how he could possibly be 100% by Saturday.

[OldPhiKap]

Remember...this is a UNC football player we're talking about. I don't think all those ideas went through his head. I don't think he put a lot of thought into it. I think he saw an opportunity and took it, consequences be darned.

Possibly.


I understand your comment, but where do the high fives after the hit fit in?

DiBD, the only thing I saw was a hand slap that could have been along the lines of "shake it off" or somesuch. If it is hard for me to believe someone would be so stupid as to try to injure someone so openly, it is even more difficult for me to believe that he would openly celebrate it as well while the officials were huddled.

Again, I'm not getting into the position of defending the guy -- just stating my impression. Maybe he is that dumb and that much of a thug -- in which case there should be a pattern of dirty play. I do not follow the heels so do not know whether that exists or not.




Not if I'm the coach, not if Cut's the coach. I doubt very seriously whether Coach Cut has given up on this game, and I'm not sure I want him as coach if he has. This isn't NFL playoff football, and I hate when they do it then. Smacks of a lack of integrity and no respect shown to the team you're playing. And, as others have said before me, I'd hate to be the man stopping a healthy Conner Vernon from playing against anybody, but especially a Florida team.

Vernon will play in Florida if the coach will let him. And Cut's not going down there to take a loss. If Connor is healthy he will play, if even in a limited role to see if he is up to speed.

[devildeac]

Fair question. Let's put aside different sports for a second (and Mike Tyson is his own category). If I am a DB and I want to hurt a receiver, I have plenty of chances to do so: in the pile, a helmet-to-helmet tackle, racking him on a crossing pattern, or giving him a bang on an attempted blocking assignment away from the ball. This was during an attempt to shuffle in a different defensive set against our no-huddle, out in front of everyone where the only movement on the field was happening. Too great a risk of getting caught. Is that where you want to take a chance with a fifteen yard personal foul and automatic first down, and maybe get tossed for initiating contact while there was no active play?

I understand if folks saw it differently, and I am not the one to sit here and defend Carolina. They can all go to Hell as far as I am concerned. But I just find it tough to believe that the kid intentionally tried to lay Connor out under these circumstances.


I understand your comment, but where do the high fives after the hit fit in?

Not arguing. Just discussing. You also didn't see repeated late hits to Thad several years ago at chappaheeya. DitBD was there, too, IIRC. They had at least six PF penalties and coulda/shoulda been called for several more. There were also several other late hits or types of hits as you mentioned above on our WR in that same game that were just dirty. Some called, others not. I find the lowered elbow and high fiving after the play to be quite telling, in addition to the lack of helping CV to his feet after the "bump." And this was on Sportsmanship Day.

I can see your point and agree he did not try to "lay him out," but, he still hit him with a shoulder from behind during a "break" in the action. I tend to over-react in situations like this, especially with the baby blues involved, but when Oly Fan and Jim Sumner post their thoughts how they viewed it and when Cut views the tape on Sunday and is labeled as "incensed" at the play, I tend to believe it was not an accident.

I've got three cents change for your nickel, too.;)

[OldPhiKap]

I've got three cents change for your nickel, too.;)

I need to move to a state with a 10-cent deposit.

Oh wait, that's the "Ymm, Beer" thread. Nevermind.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Not arguing. Just discussing. You also didn't see repeated late hits to Thad several years ago at chappaheeya. DitBD was there, too, IIRC. They had at least six PF penalties and coulda/shoulda been called for several more. There were also several other late hits or types of hits as you mentioned above on our WR in that same game that were just dirty. Some called, others not. I find the lowered elbow and high fiving after the play to be quite telling, in addition to the lack of helping CV to his feet after the "bump." And this was on Sportsmanship Day.

I can see your point and agree he did not try to "lay him out," but, he still hit him with a shoulder from behind during a "break" in the action. I tend to over-react in situations like this, especially with the baby blues involved, but when Oly Fan and Jim Sumner post their thoughts how they viewed it and when Cut views the tape on Sunday and is labeled as "incensed" at the play, I tend to believe it was not an accident.

I've got three cents change for your nickel, too.;)
Yes, you are correct. I was a witness to the Thad Lewis beating in '09 when Thad was crawling on all fours like a beaten dog. I have witnessed the incidents involving bodily harm inflicted in such a decisive manner as to raise concerns about the extent of the injuries. In Thad's case, for example, the injuries were pretty serious. The public didn't know until the end of the season that he'd been beaten badly enough that getting into his car was not possible for a while... I want to say 2 weeks, but I've tried to forget the sordid details. The ruthless beating did get Marvin Austin selected for our last tackle ceremony for a couple of years.

All I can tell you is I was there. It happened quickly. The Carolina player appeared to be headed directly into Conner from behind. He appeared to be running at full tilt. No one else was moving. It looked as if play was about to start, but in fact, it had not begun.

Conner was knocked over and rolled like a ball, but didn't get up. The guy who hit Conner ran into the crowd at the Carolina bench and seemed to disappear. There was a long pause and no replay. Dr. Moorman went out to Conner immediately.... usually a sign of more serious injury. Once Conner was off the field, play resumed like that whole event was a mirage or figment of the imagination.

It was strange and surrealistic. The whole situation was quite out of order.