Original Rules of Basketball almost ended up at Duke

[hurleyfor3]

Anyone else watch the Espn 30 for 30 show on the sale of James Naismith's original rules of basketball? It was the only interesting thing on teevee last night. Well, besides the Tigers going up 3-0 on the Yankees.

A prominent Kansas alumnus, David Booth, purchased them for $3.8 million plus buyer's premium in 2010, and they will be be displayed near Allen Fieldhouse.

But the more interesting angle from a DBR perspective, and one that I had not heard the full story behind until last night, was who Booth outbid at the auction. It was David Rubenstein, who was hoping to donate them to Duke. He didn't name any other names, but the implication was he had rounded up a group of other Duke Wall Streeters to bid on them.

The show did play on the "Duke is evil" motif, as the narrator visited Cameron and insinuated they would end up above a montage of Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill. Which would have been funny, but really, they belong to Kansas.

[mkline09]

Anyone else watch the Espn 30 for 30 show on the sale of James Naismith's original rules of basketball? It was the only interesting thing on teevee last night. Well, besides the Tigers going up 3-0 on the Yankees.

A prominent Kansas alumnus, David Booth, purchased them for $3.8 million plus buyer's premium in 2010, and they will be be displayed near Allen Fieldhouse.

But the more interesting angle from a DBR perspective, and one that I had not heard the full story behind until last night, was who Booth outbid at the auction. It was David Rubenstein, who was hoping to donate them to Duke. He didn't name any other names, but the implication was he had rounded up a group of other Duke Wall Streeters to bid on them.

The show did play on the "Duke is evil" motif, as the narrator visited Cameron and insinuated they would end up above a montage of Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill. Which would have been funny, but really, they belong to Kansas.

Saw it and found it to be a good documentary. I had to put away the fact that the insults toward Duke were part of the passion. The reaction of Dr. Allen's wife upon hearing that a group of Duke alumni were going to bid on the rules was a mix between hilarious and ridiculous. The fan saying that everything about Duke Basketball was nauseating was also a bit off putting but again, I get the passion.

The funny thing was it seemed that it took this one crazy KU fan to convince a prominent KU booster that the Rules were even worth it. Initially they didn't even seem interested. Had he failed they end up at Duke cause Rubenstein was ready to put down the coin for it. But like you I agree the rules belong at Kansas even if they hate Duke.

[Duvall]

The funny thing was it seemed that it took this one crazy KU fan to convince a prominent KU booster that the Rules were even worth it. Initially they didn't even seem interested. Had he failed they end up at Duke cause Rubenstein was ready to put down the coin for it. But like you I agree the rules belong at Kansas even if they hate Duke.

They belong in a museum Springfield, MA. Why not the Hall of Fame?

[75Crazie]

Just curious, why does Kansas hate Duke so much, unless it is the general "everybody hates Duke" attitude? If anything, I would think they'd be rooting for Duke to outshine the Heels.

[hurleyfor3]

The narrator/producer referred to Duke as basketball's noveau riche or somesuch. I think part of it is natural rivalry, though. Replace Duke with another long-time basketball power, say kentucky or ucla, and he'd find a different way to take a jab.

You do raise an interesting point: what if it were a group of unc people in a bidding war with kansas people? They've always had that blood-brotherhood, which took on a new dimension with roy's antics.

[sagegrouse]

\David Rubenstein has already bought the Magna Carta and put it "on permanent loan" to the National Archives. I suppose James Naismith's original rules of basketball is on a similar plane.

Here's the Wikipedia passage --


"On December 18, 2007, David Rubenstein purchased the last privately owned copy of the Magna Carta at Sotheby's auction house in New York for $21.3 million. He has lent it to the National Archives in Washington D.C. In 2011, Rubenstein gave $13.5 million to the National Archives for a new gallery and visitor's center."

sagegrouse

[lotusland]

Just curious, why does Kansas hate Duke so much, unless it is the general "everybody hates Duke" attitude? If anything, I would think they'd be rooting for Duke to outshine the Heels.

It was done in a very tongue and cheek way and it was funny. They filmed him sitting in an empty CIS chanting "Rock Chalk Jayhawk". I'm sure someone at Duke allowed him in and was OK with the gag.

[mkline09]

It was done in a very tongue and cheek way and it was funny. They filmed him sitting in an empty CIS chanting "Rock Chalk Jayhawk". I'm sure someone at Duke allowed him in and was OK with the gag.

I thought that was pretty funny.

[Bluedog]

It's on right now. I'm watching it for the first time. I, too, thought the Duke references were humorous and tongue in cheek. Good documentary.

[savekyriestoe]

The ESPN 30 for 30 from last night. Did anyone else see it?

Although it isn't mentioned in the trailer, Duke plays a pretty big villain. I had a pretty good laugh watching it. The best part was when Josh Swade, the guy leading the charge to buy Naismith's rules of basketball, meets with Phog Allen's grandson and his wife, he tells them both that he's heard Duke is interested in buying the rules, to which the wife gasps, saying:

"Oh my gosh. I'm not surprised."

Just thought it was funny and anyone who didn't see it because you didn't want to watch an hour-long ode to KU should know that the Duke angle makes it well worth watching.

[Edouble]

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29419-Original-Rules-of-Basketball-almost-ended-up-at-Duke

Yeah, others have seen it

[Lord Ash]

Oh, that would have been fantastic! Oh well, I guess it makes more sense to have them at Kansas. Still...

[lmb]

It was mentioned that money is being raised for some sort of display/exhibit for the rules. Any chance Rubenstein makes a donation since he bid the papers up about 2 million?;)

[TexHawk]

Just curious, why does Kansas hate Duke so much, unless it is the general "everybody hates Duke" attitude? If anything, I would think they'd be rooting for Duke to outshine the Heels.

One over-the-top, slightly nerdy KU fan does not speak for the school or the fanbase. If I had to put a finger on it, I would guess the current hate is almost exclusively towards Kentucky. Personally, Duke is probably my 2nd favorite team in all of CBB. Many many of my KU brethren loudly cheer for Duke against UNC, the sister-school thing flew out the window with Roy. Swade grew up in Kansas, went to high school during Roy's first few years (90-93), which is when a lot of us become passionate about college hoops. That time coincided with Duke's incredible run of Final 4s and championships. Many of us can relate to being young and stupid about loving/hating certain schools for relatively stupid reasons. I may have ended up in the same boat if I didn't have family in North Carolina at the time.

[DukeWarhead]

Just curious, why does Kansas hate Duke so much, unless it is the general "everybody hates Duke" attitude? If anything, I would think they'd be rooting for Duke to outshine the Heels.

I've posted on this subject a couple times in the past. My experiences living in the KC metro area for a few years (2005-2010) made me turn sour on the Jayhawks because of the (IMO) inexplicable volume of Duke Hate. I always wondered why so many Jayhawk fans and local sports radio types would waste so much time and breath poo-pooing Duke, even when Duke was not meeting expectations (hello, 2006-07). It went way beyond the general "everybody hates Duke" that you can expect to find in most regions that follow college B-ball closely.
I eventually decided that many KU fans were bitter that the Jayhawks were not being mentioned in the same breath as Duke, UNC, and Kentucky and even UCLA at the time. Even with their NCAA win, they seemed to complain about not getting the national cred they deserved, so of course, they needed to gribe about the "Duke bias." I'm convinced that's what it is. KU fans can't stand it when somebody suggests that the atmosphere at CIS is on par with, or (gasp) better than that at "The Phog" (If you want to make a Jayhawk Fan go crazy, just suggest that and prepare for a 15 minute, spit-flying tirade.)
I always assumed that there would be more vocal distain toward UNC for swiping Roy, but perhaps two tourney wins over the heels since then has eased that some. Certainly losses to Duke like that in Maui last season don't do anything to lessen the bitterness.

Ultimately, I think most KU fans are pretty solid. There's just alot of complaining and spite directed towards Duke that seems weird because, frankly, Duke fans don't seem to care much about KU either way - which probably explains a lot.

[crimsonandblue]

I've posted on this subject a couple times in the past. My experiences living in the KC metro area for a few years (2005-2010) made me turn sour on the Jayhawks because of the (IMO) inexplicable volume of Duke Hate. I always wondered why so many Jayhawk fans and local sports radio types would waste so much time and breath poo-pooing Duke, even when Duke was not meeting expectations (hello, 2006-07). It went way beyond the general "everybody hates Duke" that you can expect to find in most regions that follow college B-ball closely.
I eventually decided that many KU fans were bitter that the Jayhawks were not being mentioned in the same breath as Duke, UNC, and Kentucky and even UCLA at the time. Even with their NCAA win, they seemed to complain about not getting the national cred they deserved, so of course, they needed to gribe about the "Duke bias." I'm convinced that's what it is. KU fans can't stand it when somebody suggests that the atmosphere at CIS is on par with, or (gasp) better than that at "The Phog" (If you want to make a Jayhawk Fan go crazy, just suggest that and prepare for a 15 minute, spit-flying tirade.)
I always assumed that there would be more vocal distain toward UNC for swiping Roy, but perhaps two tourney wins over the heels since then has eased that some. Certainly losses to Duke like that in Maui last season don't do anything to lessen the bitterness.

Ultimately, I think most KU fans are pretty solid. There's just alot of complaining and spite directed towards Duke that seems weird because, frankly, Duke fans don't seem to care much about KU either way - which probably explains a lot.

Most of the people who post on bulletin boards grew up in the golden age of K's reign. Most fan bases' Duke-hate is equal parts envy and hatred of the grating ESPN-Vitale-Mike Patrick-Duke love affair. I'll personally never forgive Duke for 1986.

[Sir Stealth]

Having admittedly not seen the documentary, I'd say it's fairly common to play up some sort of conflict to increase the dramatic narrative that the author is trying to convey. Duke makes an easy choice here because of the reality that we were in fact bidding on it and because Duke is obviously seen as a villain in college basketball. So it makes sense that anti-Duke sentiment among the KU folk would be played up even if it really isn't any higher than what would exist in your average fanbase. I think that previous posters do make a very good point though that there is probably resentment at KU, perhaps justifiably, that Duke (w/CIS), UNC, and Kentucky all probably get a lot more press as blue-bloods than they do, despite being the 2nd winningest program and having success in recent years.

[JasonEvans]

I watched the doc too. It was a bit over-the-top in its adoration of Kansas for my taste, but the director bleeds for KU basketball so that is to be expected.

I found the Duke hate amusing, and I see it as yet more proof that we are the premiere program in college basketball. Others have described how Allen's wife reacts when hearing the rules might end up at Duke. So, lets think about how she would react to other schools...

* Kentucky - This is the one school that might have brought a similar expression of shock and dismay from her. Kentucky is currently on top of the college basketball heap and all other programs think that Calipari has cheated and bent the rules to get them there. I could see her being just as upset about Kentucky getting the rules as she was about Duke.

* Kansas rivals, such as Mizzu, Texas, Kansas St, or Oklahoma - She would have reacted badly to any of these, though only for rivalry reasons, not because of any statement about the quality of the basketball program at those schools.

* UNC - I sense a bit of a friendship between the programs and fans, despite Roy ditching KU for UNC. It is not like KU suffered when he left and Self brought KU to heights they never reached under Roy so I doubt they feel much of anything but admiration for Carolina. She would not have reacted negatively to Carolina.

No other school would have even registered for her, other than as a reflection on her desire to see the Rules end up at KU instead of anywhere else.

As I often say, they hate us because they are sick of us having the best coach; they are sick of our upstanding players who clearly get a solid education and play hard on the court all the time; they are disgusted that we almost never have a down season... and when we do, it is still the kind of seasons most of them would kill for; they can't stand that the announcers talk about how polite and smart and well coached our players are all the time... mostly they just hate us for being better than them year after year after year.

So I drink up that hate, I lap it up with joy. I bathe in it and rub it all over my body (eeew, not an image you want to dwell upon). I let it flow around me as I laugh with delight. I say, "Bring it on!! Hate us some more!! Please!!!"

Because my friends, the last thing I want, the worst thing I can imagine...

...would be if the hate stopped. If the hate dissolved into "I don't care that much about Duke." That is the world UCLA currently lives in. If that day comes, it will be a sad one for Duke basketball.

-Jason "Booth did this without batting an eye -- he is worth something like $5 billion and once gave $300 mill to the Univ. of Chicago business school -- he probably makes well over $3.4 mil a day in interest on his investments" Evans

[TexHawk]

* UNC - I sense a bit of a friendship between the programs and fans, despite Roy ditching KU for UNC. It is not like KU suffered when he left and Self brought KU to heights they never reached under Roy so I doubt they feel much of anything but admiration for Carolina. She would not have reacted negatively to Carolina.


There is some very strange "sensing" going on in this thread, because I can absolutely tell you that there is very very little love for UNC in the KU fanbase. As I said a few posts earlier, many of us cheer against UNC in every thing they do, including when they play Duke. Just don't mistake that for liking Duke, every Tar Heel opponent gets that temporary love for a couple hours when they play UNC. The strange thing is, the hate for Roy is decreasing day-by-day, most realize that him leaving was the "bandaid rip-off" that we all needed. This forced the school to go out and reinvent the future of the program, by grabbing the best coach (http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/10/16/12/Kansas-Self-wins-titles-his-way/landing_ku.html?blockID=805769&feedID=5089) in the game.

There are two large reasons for the UNC hate, and they will likely never go away: (1) Deano. He torpedoed the Final 4 in 2003 by firing Doh and loudly pushing Roy to leave KU, all while the team was preparing to win a national title. The worst part is Dean is a KU alum, and played for Phog Allen. Many will never forgive that. (2) The fanbase, of which I'm sure you know plenty about.

[TexHawk]

Having admittedly not seen the documentary, I'd say it's fairly common to play up some sort of conflict to increase the dramatic narrative that the author is trying to convey. Duke makes an easy choice here because of the reality that we were in fact bidding on it and because Duke is obviously seen as a villain in college basketball. So it makes sense that anti-Duke sentiment among the KU folk would be played up even if it really isn't any higher than what would exist in your average fanbase. I think that previous posters do make a very good point though that there is probably resentment at KU, perhaps justifiably, that Duke (w/CIS), UNC, and Kentucky all probably get a lot more press as blue-bloods than they do, despite being the 2nd winningest program and having success in recent years.

No doubt there are few pockets of the KU fanbase that feel this way, but those people are insane. (1) ESPN just ran a 1 hour infomercial for Kansas Basketball, (2) just about every KU game is national on ESPN/CBS. You really think Duke/UNC/Kentucky get more press as blue-bloods? Can you provide some examples of this? I don't see many national writers/media folks claiming that, but I could be wrong.

[Sir Stealth]

No doubt there are few pockets of the KU fanbase that feel this way, but those people are insane. (1) ESPN just ran a 1 hour infomercial for Kansas Basketball, (2) just about every KU game is national on ESPN/CBS. You really think Duke/UNC/Kentucky get more press as blue-bloods? Can you provide some examples of this? I don't see many national writers/media folks claiming that, but I could be wrong.

Hey, fair enough then. As a Duke fan there's no real way for me to take a step back and see who really gets more. I've seen opposing fans complain about non-stop Duke coverage so much that at some point it's probably seeped in my mind that we actually get it relative to KU and whoever else besides those other two. I for one certainly don't feel like there's any reason for KU to actually resent Duke or hate Duke - wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few pockets at KU for this as well as other reasons though.

[TexHawk]

Hey, fair enough then. As a Duke fan there's no real way for me to take a step back and see who really gets more. I've seen opposing fans complain about non-stop Duke coverage so much that at some point it's probably seeped in my mind that we actually get it relative to KU and whoever else besides those other two. I for one certainly don't feel like there's any reason for KU to actually resent Duke or hate Duke - wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few pockets at KU for this as well as other reasons though.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there is a large percentage of KU fans (most) that do not like Duke. But it is the same kind of resentment that exists for Kentucky, Michigan State, UCLA, Ohio State, Arizona, Syracuse and a few others. Those schools are national threats for recruits, #1 seeds, and championships. The deep-seeded, "we go out of our way to hate" resentment is reserved for UNC and (always and forever) Missouri.

[scottdude8]

So I just watched a bit of the 30-for-30 documentary on the original Naismith rules of basketball, which is finally on Netflix. All in all I found it pretty bad... just a guy awkwardly trying to get money from donors for 50% of the movie. But I watched it because I had heard there was a clip about Cameron in there, and a buddy told me I was in the B-roll footage of the Crazies they used.

And while I was pleasantly surprised to see that I got my 5 seconds of fame on ESPN, I thought the guy's analysis of Duke was just hilarious. His little speech (its about 25 minutes into the movie) just so perfectly encapsulates the silliness of Duke hate—it devolves down into A) we hate Duke because some rich kids go there, and B) we hate Duke because their success is relatively "new" compared to the old-school blue bloods. Anyways, I was just curious if anyone else saw the film and what their thoughts were... I was looking forward to watching it, and left it incredibly bored and a little peeved at yet another negative characterization of Duke.

[lotusland]

So I just watched a bit of the 30-for-30 documentary on the original Naismith rules of basketball, which is finally on Netflix. All in all I found it pretty bad... just a guy awkwardly trying to get money from donors for 50% of the movie. But I watched it because I had heard there was a clip about Cameron in there, and a buddy told me I was in the B-roll footage of the Crazies they used.

And while I was pleasantly surprised to see that I got my 5 seconds of fame on ESPN, I thought the guy's analysis of Duke was just hilarious. His little speech (its about 25 minutes into the movie) just so perfectly encapsulates the silliness of Duke hate—it devolves down into A) we hate Duke because some rich kids go there, and B) we hate Duke because their success is relatively "new" compared to the old-school blue bloods. Anyways, I was just curious if anyone else saw the film and what their thoughts were... I was looking forward to watching it, and left it incredibly bored and a little peeved at yet another negative characterization of Duke.



There was a post about it back in November or December. I thought it was moderately interesting and the anti-Duke banter was tongue and cheek and pretty harmless. I think the point of it was the extremes that some rabid college sports fans will go to in supporting their team/school. The competing bidder was a Duke alum so some good natured ribbing was to be expected. Pretty mild compared to another special about the Bama/Auburn football rivalry including the yahoo that poisoned the Auburn trees.

[Johnboy]

So I just watched a bit of the 30-for-30 documentary on the original Naismith rules of basketball, which is finally on Netflix. All in all I found it pretty bad... just a guy awkwardly trying to get money from donors for 50% of the movie. But I watched it because I had heard there was a clip about Cameron in there, and a buddy told me I was in the B-roll footage of the Crazies they used.

And while I was pleasantly surprised to see that I got my 5 seconds of fame on ESPN, I thought the guy's analysis of Duke was just hilarious. His little speech (its about 25 minutes into the movie) just so perfectly encapsulates the silliness of Duke hate—it devolves down into A) we hate Duke because some rich kids go there, and B) we hate Duke because their success is relatively "new" compared to the old-school blue bloods. Anyways, I was just curious if anyone else saw the film and what their thoughts were... I was looking forward to watching it, and left it incredibly bored and a little peeved at yet another negative characterization of Duke.

I thought it was OK, but I was completely surprised by Duke being in it at all. As for fans of other "blue blood" basketball schools, I think it's hard to characterize Duke as a Johnny-Come-Lately when we're 4th on the all-time wins list.

[TexHawk]

So I just watched a bit of the 30-for-30 documentary on the original Naismith rules of basketball, which is finally on Netflix. All in all I found it pretty bad... just a guy awkwardly trying to get money from donors for 50% of the movie. But I watched it because I had heard there was a clip about Cameron in there, and a buddy told me I was in the B-roll footage of the Crazies they used.

And while I was pleasantly surprised to see that I got my 5 seconds of fame on ESPN, I thought the guy's analysis of Duke was just hilarious. His little speech (its about 25 minutes into the movie) just so perfectly encapsulates the silliness of Duke hate—it devolves down into A) we hate Duke because some rich kids go there, and B) we hate Duke because their success is relatively "new" compared to the old-school blue bloods. Anyways, I was just curious if anyone else saw the film and what their thoughts were... I was looking forward to watching it, and left it incredibly bored and a little peeved at yet another negative characterization of Duke.

Was discussed in this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29419-Original-Rules-of-Basketball-almost-ended-up-at-Duke) a few months ago. Personally, I loved it, but I'm a KU fan.

As to the bolded, it's one guy, who does not speak for the fanbase.

[hurleyfor3]

bumping for merging purposes...

[scottdude8]

Thanks for the thread move, didn't realize that this had been discussed in detail previously. Seems like my reaction of, "Oh, whatever" seems to mirror the boards. As for the "we" issue, I was writing that from the perspective not of Kansas fans in general but Duke haters in general... which I think we can safely assume is a plural group.