The Marshall Plumlee foot vigil

[markbdevil]

Boot on left foot, K said he could be out for 'a while'
I was at the coaches' clinic today in Cameron

[jipops]

Geesh, the injury bug biting already. Also read Seth was on the stationary bike nursing something minor. I really didn't expect Marshall to play much nor be a part of the rotation. But him being out for "awhile" really hurts his development for next season. Seems like yet more big man injury bad luck.

[tommy]

Again with the foot injuries? Gotta be kidding me.

[Cameron]

That's really unfortunate. I am sure he is more than eager to get his college career off to a start.

While he may not see major rotation by the end of the season, as K traditionally tightens things up heading toward February, there probably would have been ample playing time for Marshall early on in the OOC portion of the schedule. I'm anxious to see what the kid can bring to the table. Here's to a speedy recovery.

[Lord Ash]

So damn irritating. Give us a year with no injuries, PLEASE. Hope he is back soon.

And I am expecting Marshall to put in some time this year. Who do you guys think we have to back up our only center? Mason gets 3 fouls... what, you think Josh is stepping in? Maybe Ryan, but otherwise...

[jipops]

So damn irritating. Give us a year with no injuries, PLEASE. Hope he is back soon.

And I am expecting Marshall to put in some time this year. Who do you guys think we have to back up our only center? Mason gets 3 fouls... what, you think Josh is stepping in? Maybe Ryan, but otherwise...

I posted this in the expectation thread, I see Ryan getting a ton of time switching between post positions. I think Marshall's injury affects this much more so earlier in the season with Ryan not getting much rest. Hairston will probably end up with a lot more minutes now in the early months.

I think this has more potential to hurt us next season than this season (think Zoubek), depending on the extent of the injury.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

Todd please step up

[Cameron]

I posted this in the expectation thread, I see Ryan getting a ton of time switching between post positions. I think Marshall's injury affects this much more so earlier in the season with Ryan not getting much rest. Hairston will probably end up with a lot more minutes now in the early months.

I think this has more potential to hurt us next season than this season (think Zoubek), depending on the extent of the injury.

I agree, but hope that it doesn't also turn out to affect us -- negatively -- later in the season in the form of an emotionally and physically-taxed Ryan Kelly. I am confident Ryan has prepared for his senior year as well as could possibly be expected under the direction of one of the best training staffs in the country, but if he really is asked to play close to 40 minutes a game over the course of the year to compensate for our sudden dearth at center, as has been suggested here, I worry that Ryan might not have enough staying power deep into March. His shooting, in particular, all ready has shown a propensity to drop off somewhat over the last month of the season in each of the past couple of years. I want him as fresh as possible, and playing 40 minutes per game at the power forward and center positions for a significant portion of the season wouldn't seem to lend well to that.

On the other hand, if Kelly is forced to play more minutes through the necessity of spelling Mason, perhaps that will reveal a silver lining of sorts by presenting Amile Jefferson with more minutes and subsequently a greater opportunity to work his way prominently into the rotation sooner than most might have expected.

Although, it's hard to tell how all of this will ultimately play out. I think we can all agree that it would be best for the team if Marshall gets back as soon as possible.

[Kedsy]

I am confident Ryan has prepared for his senior year as well as could possibly be expected under the direction of one of the best training staffs in the country, but if he really is asked to play close to 40 minutes a game over the course of the year to compensate for our sudden dearth at center, as has been suggested here, I worry that Ryan might not have enough staying power deep into March.

I'm just not ready yet for a discussion of whether our guys are playing too many minutes so they'll be too tired at the end of the season. So I'm not going to get into that.

However, my guess (as we've been discussing in the "expectations" thread) is that Mason and Ryan will each play about 30 minutes a game, and that Marshall, Amile, and Josh will have approximately 20 minutes to split among them. Even if Marshall gets none of those minutes, it would probably mean about 12 and 8 for Amile and Josh (or Josh and Amile), which doesn't sound outrageous to me. I expect that either Mason or Ryan will be on the floor at all times, but at 30 minutes apiece, I wouldn't be worried about conditioning issues or anybody wilting at the end of the season.

I'm concerned about Marshall's injury and want him to have every chance to succeed, but any worry about Ryan playing 40 minutes a game or panic that we don't have anybody to back up Mason is, in my opinion, misplaced.

[greybeard]

I am confident Ryan has prepared for his senior year as well as could possibly be expected under the direction of one of the best training staffs in the country

Why all the injuries then, not just at Duke? Does high-end training reduce the likelihood of injury or increase it? Do trainers help athletes distribute work equally throughout the body, or does sheering force amplified by the training these athletes get drive force in a direction that pushes force into one area of the connective tisse/bones that is not quipped to handle it?

By the way, exploring how to develop a solid connection between the fourth metatarsal and the central bone in the forepart of the foot, leaning how to create and maintain that connection, to push through that connection, not only will add tremendous, effortless stability to the entire body, but it will also greatly reduce these foot, ankle, and knee injuries that we see in sport in ever more alarming numbers. Learning how to use oneself to maintain this connection creates an ability to withstand pushes and shoves from any direction without tightening and greatly improves one's ability to more in any direction with power and control while maintaining suppleness. How long before one will begin to experience these qualities? Depends on who is creating the learning environment, and what it is the teacher/training is trying to impart and how knowledgible he or she is and how skilled he or she is at reaching people with different learning styles. Me, I would spend time in the Seattle area learning from a guy named Jeff Haller. As a matter of fact, this is my second trip across the country to spend some time working with Jeff is as many months.

[MChambers]

I'm just not ready yet for a discussion of whether our guys are playing too many minutes so they'll be too tired at the end of the season. So I'm not going to get into that.
I dunno, Kedsy, you might want to start practicing now, so that you will be in peak form to refute others in February and March, the first time the three pointers aren't falling!

[Newton_14]

Really hate to see this. I was looking forward to see MP3 in action in these early games. Definitely a set back for this development. I suspect this will lead to more PT for Amile, so maybe it helps his development.

Hopefully MP3 will have a quick recovery and get back out there, but a terrible time for a young big man to suffer an injury.

[plimnko]

does anyone even know what the injury is??

[superdave]

does anyone even know what the injury is??

Good question. I hope this is minor and not as significant as what Ryan went through. Anyone got news?
I think this could hurt our other bigs because Marshall won't be available to practice against.

[Indoor66]

Good question. I hope this is minor and not as significant as what Ryan went through. Anyone got news?
I think this could hurt our other bigs because Marshall won't be available to practice against.

I think it will hurt our bigs because he is the biggest big.

[Kedsy]

I think it will hurt our bigs because he is the biggest big.

In 1986, Marty Nessley was our biggest big. By a lot. He had 20 DNPs in 40 games. Did that hurt our other bigs?


NOTE: I'm not comparing Marshall Plumlee to Marty Nessley in terms of skill or potential, or in any other way other than height. I'm simply wondering how being the "biggest big" could make a difference, in and of itself.

[BlueDevilOhioan]

does anyone even know what the injury is??

Duke undergrad here. I live on the same floor in the dorms as all the sophomores on the team. I ran into Marshall last night and he said it was a stress fracture that occured sometime before practice.

[Waynne]

In 1986, Marty Nessley was our biggest big. By a lot. He had 20 DNPs in 40 games. Did that hurt our other bigs?


NOTE: I'm not comparing Marshall Plumlee to Marty Nessley in terms of skill or potential, or in any other way other than height. I'm simply wondering how being the "biggest big" could make a difference, in and of itself.

Because practicing against our "biggest big" gives our other bigs experience in playing against big bigs?

[BlueDevil16]

So how long would he be out for with a stress fracture?

[uh_no]

So how long would he be out for with a stress fracture?

probably depends on lots of things....but i'm guessing anywhere from 1-2 months

[Class of '94]

probably depends on lots of things....but i'm guessing anywhere from 1-2 months

I just hope that this will not be a repeat of the foot injury problems that Zoubs endured.

[sagegrouse]

I just hope that this will not be a repeat of the foot injury problems that Zoubs endured.

Probably the fifth metatarsal, which is imbedded not only in Marshall's foot but the history of the Duke basketball program. Here's a diagram (http://www.foothealthfacts.org/footankleinfo/fifth-metatarsal_fractures.htm) and a brief discussion.

sagegrouse

[uh_no]

I just hope that this will not be a repeat of the foot injury problems that Zoubs endured.

well, zoubs injury problems ended with a national championship....

not that i wish the problems on marshall, but I think zoubs was happy with the ending

[jipops]

Google search on stress fracture of the metatarsal estimates 6-12 weeks to heal. So a highly speculative guess puts him back recovered by January. If this were the case I don't think he would see many minutes at this point, if any at all. He would be way behind everyone else in both team chemistry and conditioning. Such a scenario would really hold back Marshall's development going into next season. I can already hear the detractors of Duke big man coaching now. ...or he could just be out until November:)

[BD80]

Duke undergrad here. I live on the same floor in the dorms as all the sophomores on the team. I ran into Marshall last night and he said it was a stress fracture that occured sometime before practice.

He wasn't jumping into a pool was he?

2864

[devildeac]

Probably the fifth metatarsal, which is imbedded not only in Marshall's foot but the history of the Duke basketball program. Here's a diagram (http://www.foothealthfacts.org/footankleinfo/fifth-metatarsal_fractures.htm) and a brief discussion.

sagegrouse

I'm going to speak to the orthopedic surgeons at Duke and see if we can re-name it a Duke metatarsal fracture:mad:.

[sagegrouse]

Google search on stress fracture of the metatarsal estimates 6-12 weeks to heal. So a highly speculative guess puts him back recovered by January. If this were the case I don't think he would see many minutes at this point, if any at all. He would be way behind everyone else in both team chemistry and conditioning. Such a scenario would really hold back Marshall's development going into next season. I can already hear the detractors of Duke big man coaching now. ...or he could just be out until November:)


I'm going to speak to the orthopedic surgeons at Duke and see if we can re-name it a Duke metatarsal fracture:mad:.

Sounds good. I dunno about 6-12 weeks -- Boozer only missed three back in 2001. Was it the same kind of injury?

sagegrouse

[devildeac]

Sounds good. I dunno about 6-12 weeks -- Boozer only missed three back in 2001. Was it the same kind of injury?

sagegrouse

I'm going to hope billy is still reading DBR as he is an orthopedic surgeon and would be far, far better qualified to discuss metatarsal stress fractures than this cardiologist who didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night or even over the weekend;):rolleyes:.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Sounds good. I dunno about 6-12 weeks -- Boozer only missed three back in 2001. Was it the same kind of injury?

sagegrouse


I think it was similar, but stress fractures can be a tough thing to guess/speculate healing time. Doctors and trainers I think like to error on the side of caution with stress fractures in the foot because they have a nasty habit of coming back and being bothersome. I remember Joakim Noah dealt with a similar injury a few years ago and he would play, be out a few weeks, play again, then be out again for a while. It's happened to a lit of NBA players. So with all that said, play it safe and sit him until December or January (if its a bad one). You don't want these things to linger.

[Kedsy]

I think this could hurt our other bigs because Marshall won't be available to practice against.


I think it will hurt our bigs because he is the biggest big.


I'm simply wondering how being the "biggest big" could make a difference, in and of itself.


Because practicing against our "biggest big" gives our other bigs experience in playing against big bigs?

Now we're back to the beginning again. I think the practice argument is a decent one. I was responding to the 2nd quote above, which appeared to dismiss the practice argument in favor of the "biggest big" argument. If I misunderstood Indoor66's post, I apologize for perpetuating this portion of the discussion.

[gep]

So... if it's January, would a "medical" hardship/red-shirt be available? Last year was a red-shirt? Seems like no practice/work on basketball till January will not give Marshall any time this year :confused:

[billy]

I'm going to hope billy is still reading DBR as he is an orthopedic surgeon and would be far, far better qualified to discuss metatarsal stress fractures than this cardiologist who didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night or even over the weekend;):rolleyes:.

It depends which bone is affected and what the imaging shows. I'd imagine a MRI was obtained. Hopefully no crack is visible on x-ray - if it were a fifth metatarsal stress fracture with a crack visible on x-ray he'd likely have a screw placed surgically to stabilize the fracture and enable a more rapid recovery. If the diagnosis was made early, which I would expect it was, it may just be a matter of 6 or fewer weeks of rest (boot) and a custom orthotic to protect the foot. I bet he'll be out of the boot before 6 weeks and practicing based on no information other than that listed in the posts above.

IIRC, Boozer's was a third metatarsal fracture, and was a traumatic fracture rather than a stress fracture. I think most if not all of the other fractures were the fifth or small toe.

[uh_no]

can we have a recap?

do we have any ACTUAL information other than

marshall was on crutches and said something about a stress fracture

and

K said it might be a while?

[throatybeard]

can we have a recap?

do we have any ACTUAL information other than

marshall was on crutches and said something about a stress fracture

and

K said it might be a while?

This is why it's a vigil.

[BD80]

This is why it's a vigil.

You mean it is about Aeneas?

[jimsumner]

So... if it's January, would a "medical" hardship/red-shirt be available? Last year was a red-shirt? Seems like no practice/work on basketball till January will not give Marshall any time this year :confused:

Marshall has already taken a non-injury redshirt. So, an injury redshirt is not an option.

Nor is it desirable. Marshall needs game experience for a likely starting spot next season.

A January return is a worst-case scenario. Boozer broke a foot prior to his freshman season, Mason broke a wrist prior to his freshman season and both returned in plenty of time.

[roywhite]

The number of foot injuries involving Duke basketball players over the last 15 years or so seems strange....far in excess of coincidence, or natural occurrence, it would seem.

I'm certainly not an orthopod, nor a medical person, but it makes one go hmmm, what's up?

Speculation welcome; informed medical opinions even more so.

[Kedsy]

The number of foot injuries involving Duke basketball players over the last 15 years or so seems strange....far in excess of coincidence, or natural occurrence, it would seem.

I'm certainly not an orthopod, nor a medical person, but it makes one go hmmm, what's up?

Speculation welcome; informed medical opinions even more so.

Obviously, it's because we have a guard coaching our big men. :p

[mr. synellinden]

The number of foot injuries involving Duke basketball players over the last 15 years or so seems strange....far in excess of coincidence, or natural occurrence, it would seem.

I'm certainly not an orthopod, nor a medical person, but it makes one go hmmm, what's up?

Speculation welcome; informed medical opinions even more so.


I have been talking about this for years, and there is too much circumstantial/coincidental (call it what you want) evidence for there not to be speculation about the floor at Cameron and/or the practice facility having something to do with this. I know this is a common basketball injury, especially for big men - but too many players at Duke go through this for it not to be questioned.

[uh_no]

Marshall has already taken a non-injury redshirt. So, an injury redshirt is not an option.

Nor is it desirable. Marshall needs game experience for a likely starting spot next season.

A January return is a worst-case scenario. Boozer broke a foot prior to his freshman season, Mason broke a wrist prior to his freshman season and both returned in plenty of time.

I was under the impression that one could petition the NCAA for an extra year of eligibility in injury cases. Is that incorrect?

[duketaylor]

I also believe there could be a medical red-shirt in this case. If not, maybe go on a mission?;)

[TheRose77]

Probably the fifth metatarsal, which is imbedded not only in Marshall's foot but the history of the Duke basketball program. Here's a diagram (http://www.foothealthfacts.org/footankleinfo/fifth-metatarsal_fractures.htm) and a brief discussion.

sagegrouse

Second metatarsal, per coverage of practice at Ft. Bragg on espnu.

[94duke]

Tweet from Adam Rowe:


Marshall Plumlee has a stress fracture of his 2nd metatarsal, expected to miss 6-8 weeks.

https://twitter.com/DukeHoopBlog/status/257905196007583745

[sagegrouse]

Second metatarsal, per coverage of practice at Ft. Bragg on espnu.

Correct -- stress fracture of the 2nd metatarsal -- 6-8 weeks.

Now the usual question -- is that until practice or until a game?

sagegrouse

[basket1544]

You mean I'm the first that gets to say it this time?
"It's over!"

[jimsumner]

I also believe there could be a medical red-shirt in this case. If not, maybe go on a mission?;)


Normally, a player has five years to complete four seasons of eligibility. You get one redshirt year.

If a first redshirt was for medical reasons, a player can apply for a second redshirt/sixth year should an injury in a subsequent season cause him/her to miss that season. Such was the case with Kenny Anunike of the Duke football team.

However, Marshall was healthy last season. He just didn't play. Therefore, he has four years left to complete his four years of eligibilty. Duke has no basis for asking for a medical redshirt sixth year.

That's one of the disadvantages of redshirting a healthy player. You lose the option of a medical redshirt down the line.

FWIW, this is beyond premature. Marshall is looking at returning as soon as the middle of next month, after missing a handful of games at most.

[gep]

Jim... even if actually premature, this discussion is good info for me. I always wondered how a player gets 6 years. Thanks...:cool:

[OldPhiKap]

Jim... even if actually premature, this discussion is good info for me. I always wondered how a player gets 6 years. Thanks...:cool:

At UConn, you knock over a liquor store.

[BD80]

Jim... even if actually premature, this discussion is good info for me. I always wondered how a player gets 6 years. Thanks...:cool:


At UConn, you knock over a liquor store.

Are you kidding???? At uCon, that doesn't even get you a one game suspension!

[MChambers]

You mean I'm the first that gets to say it this time?
"It's over!"
Absolutely, but that means I have to point out that it wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

[OldPhiKap]

Absolutely, but that means I have to point out that it wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

Germans?

[Merlindevildog91]

Germans?

[Boon] Forget it, he's rolling. [Boon]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks of Animal House when our backup QB is mentioned?

[OldPhiKap]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks of Animal House when our backup QB is mentioned?

Well, now there are two of us. :-O

[devildeac]

Are you kidding???? At uCon, that doesn't even get you a one game suspension!

Let's be accurate and fair here. It would get you a one semester suspension involving several meaningless games. I feel dirty clarifying a Calhoun event. Fortunately, it's time for a shower now:o.

[-bdbd]

..
..CNN/SI is reporting that MP3 is out 6-8 weeks with a stress fracture.



http://tracking.si.com/2012/10/15/marshall-plumlee-injured-duke/?sct=cb_t2_a3


If true, I am less concerned about the Nov. and early-Dec. games that he might miss, and more worried about the delayed conditioning and practice/development for a kid who we were hoping would be a a part of the core rotation this year. This will put him 6-8 weeks behind the rest of the team. Hopefully he can catch up quickly.

[heyman25]

Why all the injuries then, not just at Duke? Does high-end training reduce the likelihood of injury or increase it? Do trainers help athletes distribute work equally throughout the body, or does sheering force amplified by the training these athletes get drive force in a direction that pushes force into one area of the connective tisse/bones that is not quipped to handle it?

By the way, exploring how to develop a solid connection between the fourth metatarsal and the central bone in the forepart of the foot, leaning how to create and maintain that connection, to push through that connection, not only will add tremendous, effortless stability to the entire body, but it will also greatly reduce these foot, ankle, and knee injuries that we see in sport in ever more alarming numbers. Learning how to use oneself to maintain this connection creates an ability to withstand pushes and shoves from any direction without tightening and greatly improves one's ability to more in any direction with power and control while maintaining suppleness. How long before one will begin to experience these qualities? Depends on who is creating the learning environment, and what it is the teacher/training is trying to impart and how knowledgible he or she is and how skilled he or she is at reaching people with different learning styles. Me, I would spend time in the Seattle area learning from a guy named Jeff Haller. As a matter of fact, this is my second trip across the country to spend some time working with Jeff is as many months.
The training staff could do a lot more to educate the players. I think the trainers could help injury prevention. Perhaps the trainer Fonseca and his assistants should be taking courses to upgrade their knowledge.Foot injuries are becoming too common on Duke basketball players.

[UrinalCake]

Does the five-year window still apply to an incoming freshman, since he's NEVER played a game for us, is the clock already running, so to speak?

This kind of reminds me of two years ago (maybe three?) when Mason hurt his foot over the summer. Unfortunately it seemed like it really set him back. Hopefully Marshsll can make him the lost ground more quickly. Even if he doesn't get a lot of game time, he's really valuable to bang around inside with Mason and Ryan in practice.

[BlueDevilBaby]

The training staff could do a lot more to educate the players. I think the trainers could help injury prevention. Perhaps the trainer Fonseca and his assistants should be taking courses to upgrade their knowledge.Foot injuries are becoming too common on Duke basketball players.

Gotta be the shoes! Don't recall so many foot injuries when the guys were wearing Addidas. Crossing my fingers that Marshall comes back and remains healthy the rest of the way.

[jipops]

..
..CNN/SI is reporting that MP3 is out 6-8 weeks with a stress fracture.



http://tracking.si.com/2012/10/15/marshall-plumlee-injured-duke/?sct=cb_t2_a3


If true, I am less concerned about the Nov. and early-Dec. games that he might miss, and more worried about the delayed conditioning and practice/development for a kid who we were hoping would be a a part of the core rotation this year. This will put him 6-8 weeks behind the rest of the team. Hopefully he can catch up quickly.

I am highly doubtful he was going to be a part of the core rotation this year. No matter what, I think we're looking at an 8 man rotation in the early months, and a 7 man rotation in the ACC months. My concern is his development for next year. Having at least some game experience seems important to carry into next season.

[Kedsy]

This kind of reminds me of two years ago (maybe three?) when Mason hurt his foot over the summer.

Just before the games started Mason's freshman year, he broke his wrist. Is that what you mean? I don't remember Mason ever seriously hurting his foot.

[Jim3k]

Gotta be the shoes! Don't recall so many foot injuries when the guys were wearing Addidas. Crossing my fingers that Marshall comes back and remains healthy the rest of the way.

That may actually be a good point, not necessarily the Adidas comment; but it is a starting point to discuss with Nike, who might well be able to reinforce the shoes in a preventive way. I'm sure they have the engineering capability and could work the problem fairly quickly. I'm betting they would take Krzyzewski's call.

[uh_no]

That may actually be a good point, not necessarily the Adidas comment; but it is a starting point to discuss with Nike, who might well be able to reinforce the shoes in a preventive way. I'm sure they have the engineering capability and could work the problem fairly quickly. I'm betting they would take Krzyzewski's call.

do you think it's in nike's best interest to build shoes that allow the athletes to whom they provide said shoes to get hurt?

NO

Nike sponsors schools because when the school performs highly, nike gets exposure....exposure=money spent on nike goods (often school paraphernalia)....so if a school's players are riding the pine injured, and the team doesn't perform well, how is that good for nike?

You seem to think that nike has some magical injury preventing technology that they are willingly choosing not to use, and would do so at the behest of coach K. I think that's absurd.


Athletes get injured. They get injured in nike shoes, adidas shoes, clown shoes. If there was a technique they knew about which was demonstrated to reduce injury without impacting performance, why wouldn't they already be using it?

[devildeac]

do you think it's in nike's best interest to build shoes that allow the athletes to whom they provide said shoes to get hurt?

NO

Nike sponsors schools because when the school performs highly, nike gets exposure....exposure=money spent on nike goods (often school paraphernalia)....so if a school's players are riding the pine injured, and the team doesn't perform well, how is that good for nike?

You seem to think that nike has some magical injury preventing technology that they are willingly choosing not to use, and would do so at the behest of coach K. I think that's absurd.


Athletes get injured. They get injured in nike shoes, adidas shoes, clown shoes. If there was a technique they knew about which was demonstrated to reduce injury without impacting performance, why wouldn't they already be using it?

Clown Shoes? I dunno. I'm not sure I've ever heard/seen anyone get injured with one of these:


2871

Just kidding. Sorry, wrong thread/board.

Get well soon MP3!

[Lord Ash]

Coach K saying that Marshall was one of the top six players on our team before injuring himself. That's pretty high praise.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/65543/video-katz-with-mike-krzyzewski

[Jim3k]

do you think it's in nike's best interest to build shoes that allow the athletes to whom they provide said shoes to get hurt?

NO

Nike sponsors schools because when the school performs highly, nike gets exposure....exposure=money spent on nike goods (often school paraphernalia)....so if a school's players are riding the pine injured, and the team doesn't perform well, how is that good for nike?

You seem to think that nike has some magical injury preventing technology that they are willingly choosing not to use, and would do so at the behest of coach K. I think that's absurd.


Athletes get injured. They get injured in nike shoes, adidas shoes, clown shoes. If there was a technique they knew about which was demonstrated to reduce injury without impacting performance, why wouldn't they already be using it?

Wow. Kind of a distortion, wouldn't you say? Who said that Nike or Adidas builds shoes for athletes that allow athletes to get hurt? I never said anything of the kind and resent the implication that I did.

All I said was that the current shoe design might well be reevaluated to see if preventive improvements can be made. There was no suggestion that shoes were the cause of the metatarsal injuries--only that perhaps injuries could be avoided by improving their design.

These athletes apply extraordinary force--pounding, torque, etc.--to their feet as they play. That is the "cause." But, lightweight material is used so their quickness is not impaired. In view of the frequency of the injuries, is that a tradeoff that should be re-examined? I suspect the answer is yes and would always be yes. That is because of the many variables in individual situations. One example might be that perhaps the shoe construction/material which works fine for a 175 pound player does not work as well for a 250 pound player. Doesn't physics suggest a dramatic foot-pound differential based on a player's weight? Other variables are at work, too--width of the player's foot; arch differences and so on.

In making that observation, I don't see how I am suggesting that that shoe manufacturers are currently building shoes likely to injure.

You have used a straw argument here. Why? You own shoe company stock? :confused:

Or you do you just trust that the manufacturers never need to improve their product?

If these shoes can be improved, wouldn't you want them to do it? Improving them is not an acknowledgment that the current design is somehow inadequate; there are plenty of players who don't get hurt. As you say, though, why wouldn't the manufacturers not be using the best materials/design?

Why wouldn't they respond to an issue like this, whether raised by Coach K or by Charley the Church League coach? Basketball players come in all sizes and strengths.

[gwlaw99]

Anyone else concerned how lack of fc depth will hurt against Kentucky?

[Kedsy]

Anyone else concerned how lack of fc depth will hurt against Kentucky?

No...

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Anyone else concerned how lack of fc depth will hurt against Kentucky?


From a depth perspective, no not at all. Ryan, Mason, Amile, and co will be just fine.

[gwlaw99]

From a depth perspective, no not at all. Ryan, Mason, Amile, and co will be just fine.

I just think 6'8" 195 jefferson against 7' 245 Cauley-Stein could be a bad match-up in the post.

[timmy c]

I just think 6'8" 195 jefferson against 7' 245 Cauley-Stein could be a bad match-up in the post.

I think that match up only happens if:
1)Both Mason AND Ryan have fouled out.
2)Josh (6-7, 240) is getting crushed
3) Todd (6-9 240) is invisible
I guess that is a statistical possibility, but not one I am not going to spend another minute thinking about.

[Kedsy]

3) Todd (6-9 240) is invisible

Sorry, but Todd is invisible. No way he gets into a game before Amile, I don't care who they have to guard.

[gwlaw99]

I think that match up only happens if:
1)Both Mason AND Ryan have fouled out.
2)Josh (6-7, 240) is getting crushed
3) Todd (6-9 240) is invisible
I guess that is a statistical possibility, but not one I am not going to spend another minute thinking about.

A far more likely scenario is that Mason or Ryan get 2 quick fouls and have to sit out most of the first half. We then have match up problems at one (if Wiltjer is in as he is basically the same type as Ryan) or two of the Center/PF positions. Are you really sold on Josh as a low post defender? I guess he could have improved a lot over the summer. Todd is a last resort.

[jimsumner]

A far more likely scenario is that Mason or Ryan get 2 quick fouls and have to sit out most of the first half. We then have match up problems at one (if Wiltjer is in as he is basically the same type as Ryan) or two of the Center/PF positions. Are you really sold on Josh as a low post defender? I guess he could have improved a lot over the summer. Todd is a last resort.

Most teams are going to have a problem if their staring center and starting power forward each pick up two quick fouls. One would hope that would not often happen to a team startingexperienced seniors at both of those spots.

[MCFinARL]

In his Duke write-up from ACC media day, posted today, Andy Katz describes Marshall as out for six to eight weeks. Before, I thought we were hearing 4 to 6 weeks. Did I miss something? Or did Katz get this wrong? http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/2012ACCMediaDay/2012-acc-media-day

[jipops]

In his Duke write-up from ACC media day, posted today, Andy Katz describes Marshall as out for six to eight weeks. Before, I thought we were hearing 4 to 6 weeks. Did I miss something? Or did Katz get this wrong? http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/2012ACCMediaDay/2012-acc-media-day

The initial report was 6-8. But since it has now been about a week since he injured it, maybe we're looking at 5-7.

[MCFinARL]

The initial report was 6-8. But since it has now been about a week since he injured it, maybe we're looking at 5-7.

Thanks. I now realize I saw 4-6 weeks in a post on another thread, so it was probably just a wishful typo by that poster.

[jipops]

Thanks. I now realize I saw 4-6 weeks in a post on another thread, so it was probably just a wishful typo by that poster.

Ironically, that might have been me.

[Newton_14]

Ironically, that might have been me.

He was in a boot/cast, and on crutches tonight. Would love for him to make it back for the December games. If he really was one of the top 6 players thus far, he will be an asset in post depth to back Mason up at the 5 spot. I imagine K will also play Mason and Marshall together at times, with Mase sliding over to the 4 spot. Marshall is a true back to the basket player, which is great. Mason has developed into a back to the basket player, but had to put a lot of work in to get there. Marshall is a natural.

[johnpope]

Sorry, but Todd is invisible. No way he gets into a game before Amile, I don't care who they have to guard.

Sorry for asking, but who is Todd?

[Kedsy]

Sorry for asking, but who is Todd?

Todd Zafirovsky. Senior (I think) walk on.

[jimsumner]

Todd Zafirovsky. Senior (I think) walk on.

Zafirovski is an academic senior. But he has two years of eligibility left. He told me last week that there's a good chance he'll be back next season as a fifth-year senior.

Todd scored in double figures in high school and did have low D-1 scholarship offers. He's a useful practice player at worse but could be a Jordan Davidson, Patrick Johnson-level walk-on who actually earns some place-holding minutes in actual games.

[greybeard]

Wow. Kind of a distortion, wouldn't you say? Who said that Nike or Adidas builds shoes for athletes that allow athletes to get hurt? I never said anything of the kind and resent the implication that I did.

All I said was that the current shoe design might well be reevaluated to see if preventive improvements can be made. There was no suggestion that shoes were the cause of the metatarsal injuries--only that perhaps injuries could be avoided by improving their design.

These athletes apply extraordinary force--pounding, torque, etc.--to their feet as they play. That is the "cause." But, lightweight material is used so their quickness is not impaired. In view of the frequency of the injuries, is that a tradeoff that should be re-examined? I suspect the answer is yes and would always be yes. That is because of the many variables in individual situations. One example might be that perhaps the shoe construction/material which works fine for a 175 pound player does not work as well for a 250 pound player. Doesn't physics suggest a dramatic foot-pound differential based on a player's weight? Other variables are at work, too--width of the player's foot; arch differences and so on.

In making that observation, I don't see how I am suggesting that that shoe manufacturers are currently building shoes likely to injure.

You have used a straw argument here. Why? You own shoe company stock? :confused:

Or you do you just trust that the manufacturers never need to improve their product?

If these shoes can be improved, wouldn't you want them to do it? Improving them is not an acknowledgment that the current design is somehow inadequate; there are plenty of players who don't get hurt. As you say, though, why wouldn't the manufacturers not be using the best materials/design?

Why wouldn't they respond to an issue like this, whether raised by Coach K or by Charley the Church League coach? Basketball players come in all sizes and strengths.

I don't think shoe design could possibly be the answer. I think that poor reorganization of the body when performing a particular action when performing certain tasks fails to distribute force appropropriately through the body when performing particular type actions put undue pressure on a particular bones in the foot and that the fracture occurs when the action occurs when the action occurs on a vector that strikes with suffifcient force on a one metatacal gives way. Perhaps routine practice of a martial art would help.

[greybeard]

I don't think shoe design could possibly be the answer. I think that poor reorganization of the body when performing a particular action when performing certain tasks fails to distribute force appropropriately through the body when performing particular type actions put undue pressure on a particular bones in the foot and that the fracture occurs when the action occurs when the action occurs on a vector that strikes with suffifcient force on a one metatacal gives way. Perhaps routine practice of a martial art would help.

please disregard, computer going crazy.

[billy]

I don't think shoe design could possibly be the answer. I think that poor reorganization of the body when performing a particular action when performing certain tasks fails to distribute force appropropriately through the body when performing particular type actions put undue pressure on a particular bones in the foot and that the fracture occurs when the action occurs when the action occurs on a vector that strikes with suffifcient force on a one metatacal gives way. Perhaps routine practice of a martial art would help.

I generally agree with your biomechanic philosophy and find your posts most interesting. In this case, i.e. a stress fracture rather than a traumatic fracture, it would be caused by repetitive over-loading of the metatarsal over a period of time. I imagine these injuries occur more frequently in the big men because they are indeed big - more force applied to the bone. Probably more related to conditioning activities than any one particular misstep/fall. That of course doesn't contradict what grey is saying here; I imagine there's some mix of tightness/weakness/running glitch that led to Marshall and other players' stress fractures. I'm sure grey has a good take on the most common things that lead to increased load on an injured bone, but, in my experience it's usually a mix of core (abdominal, hip rotators, and glute) weakness along with hamstring, calf (gastroc) and hip flexor tightness.

In general, stress fractures occur when the loads placed on a bone surpass the body's natural ability to remodel (get stronger) in response to the stresses placed upon them. Treatment is based on resting the bone (to allow it to remodel) and then gradually increase the force placed on the bone to allow it to strengthen. Conditioning can occur during this process by cross-training - swimming, biking, running in a pool (or underwater treadmill) etc. which allows for maintaining aerobic capacity while the bone is minimally loaded.

[greybeard]

I don't think shoe design could possibly be the answer. I think that poor reorganization of the body when performing a particular action when performing certain tasks fails to distribute force appropropriately through the body when performing particular type actions put undue pressure on a particular bones in the foot and that the fracture occurs when the action occurs when the action occurs on a vector that strikes with suffifcient force on a one metatacal gives way. Perhaps routine practice of a martial art would help.

please disregard, computer going crazy.

[gwlaw99]

Any update or Marshall's return?

[jimsumner]

Any update or Marshall's return?

Could see him Sunday.

[NSDukeFan]

Could see him Sunday.

Exciting. Thanks for the information.

[Dukeblue91]

Could see him Sunday.

That would be great.

[loran16]

Could see him Sunday.

Any new update Jim? Our biggest problem has been D Rebounding, which I'd imagine he'd help a lot with.

[uh_no]

Any new update Jim? Our biggest problem has been D Rebounding, which I'd imagine he'd help a lot with.

he will help out so much giving mason and ryan a break...and to ease the foul situation

they said in game he had taken a couple reps in practice....hopefully a speedy return....thank goodness we get a break for a few weeks now

[NSDukeFan]

he will help out so much giving mason and ryan a break...and to ease the foul situation

they said in game he had taken a couple reps in practice....hopefully a speedy return....thank goodness we get a break for a few weeks now

Are you saying we are not going to be playing 3 top-5 teams in the next few weeks?

[uh_no]

Are you saying we are not going to be playing 3 top-5 teams in the next few weeks?

next "legit" opponent (at least in my mind) is state on 1/12...that gives him 6+ weeks.

i know you're kdding, but we need to get seth and marshall healthy....there will come some game in march where mason and ryan will be in trouble, and we'll need marhsall.

[Saratoga2]

next "legit" opponent (at least in my mind) is state on 1/12...that gives him 6+ weeks.

i know you're kdding, but we need to get seth and marshall healthy....there will come some game in march where mason and ryan will be in trouble, and we'll need marhsall.

Remember getting destroyed by Temple? Are they any good this year?

[uh_no]

Remember getting destroyed by Temple? Are they any good this year?

I forget such things. I don't think there will be any getting destroyed by any team this year.

we're too versatile.....


I need to watch the hubris though..

[UrinalCake]

Any new update Jim? Our biggest problem has been D Rebounding, which I'd imagine he'd help a lot with.

I'm looking forward to getting him back, but I don't foresee him getting more than 3-5 minutes of playing time per game. He'll only play when Mason or Ryan come out, and Josh has earned the right to be the first big to come in. Maybe in certain matchups we'll play him alongside Mason, which will be fun because Mason will be at his natural 4 position, but I think that will be rare.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Remember getting destroyed by Temple? Are they any good this year?


They lost Fernandez and another guard (can't remember his name) but they're Temple. They aren't going away. I'm sure they'll put up a fight in the A10. I expect Marshall to be good to go in 2 weeks :)

[Olympic Fan]

next "legit" opponent (at least in my mind) is state on 1/12...that gives him 6+ weeks.

i know you're kdding, but we need to get seth and marshall healthy....there will come some game in march where mason and ryan will be in trouble, and we'll need marhsall.

While Duke doesn't have ay more top 5 opponents for awhile, Duke's december schedule is not chopped liver. Delaware beat Virginia ... Temple beay Duke a year ago.

Right now, Delaware, Temple, Elon and Santa Clara are all top 100 teams in he RPI ... Only Cornell (220) counts as a really eak opponent. Then comes Davidson, which is just 125 in the RPI, but has been playing very well.

After the Kentucky game, Coach K talked about getting Mashall back for the Florida Golf Coast game ... he was still in a boot tonight.

But he was at practice Tuesday WITHOUT a boot (although I can't say he did anything). K mentioned him after the Ohio State game, but didn't sound like he would be back real soon.

[OldSchool]

I'm looking forward to getting him back, but I don't foresee him getting more than 3-5 minutes of playing time per game. He'll only play when Mason or Ryan come out, and Josh has earned the right to be the first big to come in. Maybe in certain matchups we'll play him alongside Mason, which will be fun because Mason will be at his natural 4 position, but I think that will be rare.

I have high expectations for Marshall. I think he will end up being the first big to come in, at least once he gets integrated back into the rotation and in game shape, and will average more than 5 minutes per game, maybe even more than 10 minutes per game. We shall see.

[dchen09]

Maybe after all the big man foot injuries Duke is trying to be conservative about bringing them back.

[Dukeblue91]

I have high expectations for Marshall. I think he will end up being the first big to come in, at least once he gets integrated back into the rotation and in game shape, and will average more than 5 minutes per game, maybe even more than 10 minutes per game. We shall see.

I would really like to believe this but I'm having a hard time seeing this but would love to be wrong about this.
5-7 minutes is the top end that I see, but this is really only because I have never seen him play at all and am very cautious about this, especially after all the talk about Alex and how much he will help and all.

[Ltrey33]

While Duke doesn't have ay more top 5 opponents for awhile, Duke's december schedule is not chopped liver. Delaware beat Virginia ... Temple beay Duke a year ago.

Right now, Delaware, Temple, Elon and Santa Clara are all top 100 teams in he RPI ... Only Cornell (220) counts as a really eak opponent. Then comes Davidson, which is just 125 in the RPI, but has been playing very well.

After the Kentucky game, Coach K talked about getting Mashall back for the Florida Golf Coast game ... he was still in a boot tonight.

But he was at practice Tuesday WITHOUT a boot (although I can't say he did anything). K mentioned him after the Ohio State game, but didn't sound like he would be back real soon.

I am hoping that over the next few games we'll expand the rotation a little. We are playing about six guys (Seth, Ryan, Mason, Sheed, Thornton and Cook) a SIGNIFICANT portion of the time, and they will wear down before long if they keep playing these long minutes.

Hopefully some weaker (although still not terrible) opponents will get them some rest and give Murphy, Jefferson and Hairston into a rhythm and get them some confidence before we get into the ACC schedule.

And having Marshall back would be GREAT to take some heat off of Mason and Kelly, but seeing him in a boot last night didn't help my confidence.

[Kedsy]

We are playing about six guys (Seth, Ryan, Mason, Sheed, Thornton and Cook) a SIGNIFICANT portion of the time, and they will wear down before long if they keep playing these long minutes.

There it is, clock it: November 29, 3:27pm. Who had the under?

[ricks68]

There it is, clock it: November 29, 3:27pm. Who had the under?

Most of us, I'm sure! We just didn't bother with posting such an obvious sure thing.:rolleyes:

ricks

[MChambers]

Most of us, I'm sure! We just didn't bother with posting such an obvious sure thing.:rolleyes:

ricks

Maybe it should be a sticky: Our Players Are Playing Too Many Minutes and Will Wear Out.

After all, look what happened in 2010.

[uh_no]

Maybe it should be a sticky: Our Players Are Playing Too Many Minutes and Will Wear Out.

After all, look what happened in 2010.

They were so tired...couldn't you see? That missed runner by nolan? jeez...if he ad only played a few minutes less in december, that one would have fallen for sure!

[ChillinDuke]

There it is, clock it: November 29, 3:27pm. Who had the under?

Just LOL'd really hard.

- Chillin

[dukelifer]

next "legit" opponent (at least in my mind) is state on 1/12...that gives him 6+ weeks.

i know you're kdding, but we need to get seth and marshall healthy....there will come some game in march where mason and ryan will be in trouble, and we'll need marhsall.

While I am sure Duke will not take any games off from now until 1/12- this NC State game will also be the first legit AWAY game for this team. That will be a tough game on many levels. If Duke wins the rest of their games they are 1 or 2 in the country and State and its fans will be coming will everything that have. That will be the toughest game of the year- for lots of reasons.

[gam7]

Maybe it should be a sticky: Our Players Are Playing Too Many Minutes and Will Wear Out.

After all, look what happened in 2010.

"Too many minutes" is a common and likely overplayed concern, but I'll submit that referring to the 2010 championship in a tongue-in-cheek manner to refute an overplayed concern is a common and likely overplayed response! :)

[UrinalCake]

Maybe it should be a sticky: Our Players Are Playing Too Many Minutes and Will Wear Out.

After all, look what happened in 2010.

I hear you and agree that we shouldn't worry so much about players wearing down, especially when their typical day includes a grueling three hour practice, but I do think we need to limit Seth's minutes as he continues to battle this injury. I feel like I spend the whole game waiting for him to limp off the court for good.

Cutting him down to 20-25 minutes would probably mean Tyler plays more, but I'd prefer to see us go bigger and give Alex some of those minutes.

[MChambers]

I hear you and agree that we shouldn't worry so much about players wearing down, especially when their typical day includes a grueling three hour practice, but I do think we need to limit Seth's minutes as he continues to battle this injury. I feel like I spend the whole game waiting for him to limp off the court for good.

Cutting him down to 20-25 minutes would probably mean Tyler plays more, but I'd prefer to see us go bigger and give Alex some of those minutes.
You're right, of course. And I'd love it if Alex and Amile earned more minutes, in part because it's quite likely someone will miss at least a game or two due to injury.

So there are good reasons to root for more playing time for our bench, but I'm not worried about Mason, Ryan, Quinn, or Rasheed wearing down.

[scottdude8]

There it is, clock it: November 29, 3:27pm. Who had the under?

Back in 2010 I was asked by my editor at the Chronicle to ask such a question to K about the fatigue of the three S's. K proceeded to chastise me for (what felt like) 10 straight minutes in the middle of the press conference. Rest assured, I don't think this is ever something he is concerned about.

[mattmcbreen]

I'll be extremely happy to see Marshall take the court again. If there's anything that this team is lacking in right now, it's rebounding ability and size off the bench. We've got time to integrate Marshall into the rotation before conference play, assuming he's on schedule with his rehab. Can't wait to see how he fits into the rotation

[mcdukie]

I hear you and agree that we shouldn't worry so much about players wearing down, especially when their typical day includes a grueling three hour practice, but I do think we need to limit Seth's minutes as he continues to battle this injury. I feel like I spend the whole game waiting for him to limp off the court for good.

Cutting him down to 20-25 minutes would probably mean Tyler plays more, but I'd prefer to see us go bigger and give Alex some of those minutes.

Why Alex? I am so sick of everyone asking about why he isn't playing. When he is ready, K will play him!

[FerryFor50]

Back in 2010 I was asked by my editor at the Chronicle to ask such a question to K about the fatigue of the three S's. K proceeded to chastise me for (what felt like) 10 straight minutes in the middle of the press conference. Rest assured, I don't think this is ever something he is concerned about.

Sounds like you got hazed by your editor. :p

[Ltrey33]

There it is, clock it: November 29, 3:27pm. Who had the under?

You don't think it's at least of small concern?

Everyone points to the '10 team, but these are different players - some of whom have a history of injuries. Kelly got hurt at the end of last year, Cook played all last year hurt and Seth desperately needs rest off of that shin.

I understand that it's cliche, and it doesn't seem like Coach K cares that much (as the post above illustrates), but it can't hurt to sit them for a few extra minutes per game.

Also, I heard David Glenn say a few minutes ago on the radio that there's a good chance Marshall will redshirt. Is that possible since he redshirted last year? Did he make it up?

[MCFinARL]

You don't think it's at least of small concern?

Everyone points to the '10 team, but these are different players - some of whom have a history of injuries. Kelly got hurt at the end of last year, Cook played all last year hurt and Seth desperately needs rest off of that shin.

I understand that it's cliche, and it doesn't seem like Coach K cares that much (as the post above illustrates), but it can't hurt to sit them for a few extra minutes per game.

Also, I heard David Glenn say a few minutes ago on the radio that there's a good chance Marshall will redshirt. Is that possible since he redshirted last year? Did he make it up?

I think he would have to get permission for a second redshirt, as it would mean he would need 6 years to get 4 years of eligibility. But it is possible, given that he has a medical situation this time. Better informed people, please correct me if I am wrong about this.

As to whether David Glenn is making this up, I have no clue.

[MChambers]

You don't think it's at least of small concern?

Everyone points to the '10 team, but these are different players - some of whom have a history of injuries. Kelly got hurt at the end of last year, Cook played all last year hurt and Seth desperately needs rest off of that shin.

I understand that it's cliche, and it doesn't seem like Coach K cares that much (as the post above illustrates), but it can't hurt to sit them for a few extra minutes per game.

Also, I heard David Glenn say a few minutes ago on the radio that there's a good chance Marshall will redshirt. Is that possible since he redshirted last year? Did he make it up?

I think someone in this thread pointed out that Seth probably would benefit from rest, given his condition. For the rest of the team, I don't think they are significantly more likely to get injured by playing more in games. After all, Ryan's injury last year was in practice.

I do agree injuries are a fact of basketball and it would be good to have all 10 players on the roster ready to go.

[Ltrey33]

I think someone in this thread pointed out that Seth probably would benefit from rest, given his condition. For the rest of the team, I don't think they are significantly more likely to get injured by playing more in games. After all, Ryan's injury last year was in practice.

I do agree injuries are a fact of basketball and it would be good to have all 10 players on the roster ready to go.

Makes sense. Maybe I'm concerned for no reason. Probably should defer to the guy with 35+ years experience coaching basketball anyway.

And I thought a 6th year might be possible for Marshall, but that would be really disappointing for this year.

[Big Pappa]

I would really like to believe this but I'm having a hard time seeing this but would love to be wrong about this.
5-7 minutes is the top end that I see, but this is really only because I have never seen him play at all and am very cautious about this, especially after all the talk about Alex and how much he will help and all.

Do you have any other reasoning for your 5-7 minute projection aside from never having seen him play? Josh Hairston is currently averaging 9.7MPG and by all accounts, Marshall is a better player - not to mention that he is almost 5 inches taller. Remember that Coach K referred to Marshall as "one of our 6 best players" when he talked about him at Fort Bragg. I can't imagine that 6 includes Josh.

I imagine that he takes almost all of Josh's minutes and also cuts into Mason's and Ryan's some. I see him averaging around 18MPG.

[CDu]

I think he would have to get permission for a second redshirt, as it would mean he would need 6 years to get 4 years of eligibility. But it is possible, given that he has a medical situation this time. Better informed people, please correct me if I am wrong about this.

As to whether David Glenn is making this up, I have no clue.

You are correct. It is possible. But the NCAA hasn't always given these waivers out. And given that it was a broken bone so early in the season (these injuries typically have a relatively short recovery time; Marshall has reportedly already started doing some limited practice), I'd be really surprised if the NCAA granted such a waiver.

There are a few explanations possible ranging from the listener mishearing (always a possibility with talk radio) to Glenn relaying what someone else speculated to Glenn simply not remembering that Plumlee redshirted last year. But I'd guess that Marshall redshirting (again) is EXTREMELY unlikely.

[SilkyJ]

Maybe it should be a sticky: Our Players Are Playing Too Many Minutes and Will Wear Out.


Are you serious?! Its the original sticky!! 1A in Throaty's DBR Pocket Reference Book (http://people.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf) (which can be found in the original/first sticky):

"Krzyzewski's management of the rotation will bite us in the arse!"

[CDu]

Do you have any other reasoning for your 5-7 minute projection aside from never having seen him play? Josh Hairston is currently averaging 9.7MPG and by all accounts, Marshall is a better player - not to mention that he is almost 5 inches taller. Remember that Coach K referred to Marshall as "one of our 6 best players" when he talked about him at Fort Bragg. I can't imagine that 6 includes Josh.

I imagine that he takes almost all of Josh's minutes and also cuts into Mason's and Ryan's some. I see him averaging around 18MPG.

I wasn't asked the question, but I'd be surprised if Marshall gets more than 8-10 mpg this year. My reasoning is that I don't think Coach K will play Mason and Marshall together very much (if at all), as neither is suited to play PF at the college level. Hairston is averaging 9.7mpg because he's currently the backup C and primary backup PF right now (with Jefferson picking up some of the PF minutes).

I'd expect Marshall to cut into Mason's minutes a little bit, and take Hairston's minutes at C. That would leave Hairston with the backup minutes at PF. So in effect, I predict that Marshall will cut into the minutes of Mason at C, Hairston at C, and (indirectly) Jefferson at PF.

[Olympic Fan]

Also, I heard David Glenn say a few minutes ago on the radio that there's a good chance Marshall will redshirt. Is that possible since he redshirted last year? Did he make it up?

I'm not sure where this is coming from. In the pesser after the Ohio State game, Coach K was still anticipating Marshall's return:

"We still haven't seen Marshall Plumlee. We're looking forward to having him come back. I don't know when he's going to be back."

After the Florida Gulf Coast game, K suggested that Plumlee might be ready for the Bahamas. He's still wearuing a boot on the sidelines, but I know he was at practice Tuesday without the boot. I don't know how much he worked ... or how close he is to returning.

But redshirting is pointless -- as MACFinaARL points out, Marshall has already been redshirted once. Last year was strictly voluntary -- no injury involved. The NCAA rarely grants a sixth year in such a case -- only when a player loses two or more seasons to injury (as DE Kenny Anunike did on our football team).

Marshall is going to play ... even if he doesn't get back until January, he'll play when he's ready.

And I think six minutes is a VERY conservative estimate. I think once he gets in shape and works into the rotation, he's more of a 10-15 minute guy.

[Class of '94]

You are correct. It is possible. But the NCAA hasn't always given these waivers out. And given that it was a broken bone so early in the season (these injuries typically have a relatively short recovery time; Marshall has reportedly already started doing some limited practice), I'd be really surprised if the NCAA granted such a waiver.

There are a few explanations possible ranging from the listener mishearing (always a possibility with talk radio) to Glenn relaying what someone else speculated to Glenn simply not remembering that Plumlee redshirted last year. But I'd guess that Marshall redshirting (again) is EXTREMELY unlikely.

Didn't Nate or another former basketball player get a 6th year of eligibility? I can't remember the circumstances behind it and of course I could be completely wrong but I thought I remembered that happening.

[jimsumner]

Didn't Nate or another former basketball player get a 6th year of eligibility? I can't remember the circumstances behind it and of course I could be completely wrong but I thought I remembered that happening.

No. Nate received a medical hardship in 1998 and finished as a fifth-year senior in 2001.

Matt Christensen got seven years but only because his two Mormon Mission years did not count towards the five-year window. He played in 1996, was in Germany in 1997 and 1998, was a healthy redshirt in 1999 and finished in 2002.

[gep]

For me... I CANNOT WAIT for Marshall to get into games. He's such a great personality on the Duke Blue Planet videos... I think he'll be just a GREAT teammate, and just give his ALL. After all, he's gotta break Mason's dunk record... gotta start soon :cool:

[Olympic Fan]

No. Nate received a medical hardship in 1998 and finished as a fifth-year senior in 2001.

Matt Christensen got seven years but only because his two Mormon Mission years did not count towards the five-year window. He played in 1996, was in Germany in 1997 and 1998, was a healthy redshirt in 1999 and finished in 2002.

This is an example of why tere was always so much tension with BYU in the WAC -- their offensive linemen were always coming in for one year, then taking two years off for a mission, then coming back older and stronger.

The NCAA rarely allows players to avoid the five-years-to-play-four rule -- religious missions stop the clock ... military service stops the clock ... MULTIPLE years lost to injury can extend the clock.

To be fair, the NCAA is unpredictable and occasiionally does strange things. But as a rule of thumb, if you take a voluntary redshirt year, you can't get that year back ...

[MChambers]

Are you serious?! Its the original sticky!! 1A in Throaty's DBR Pocket Reference Book (http://people.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf) (which can be found in the original/first sticky):

"Krzyzewski's management of the rotation will bite us in the arse!"
I was not at all serious, although I had forgotten that the topic was #1A in the Pocket Reference. Thanks for the reminder!

[CDu]

Anyone have any news on Marshall? We are almost 7 weeks removed from Oct 15 reports that he would be out 6-8 weeks.

[superdave]

Anyone have any news on Marshall? We are almost 7 weeks removed from Oct 15 reports that he would be out 6-8 weeks.

The announcers for the Deleware game said Marshall practiced a little bit last week. I think the team had yesterday and today off, so if Marshall can practice four days - Tuesday through Friday - he may be ready to go for this Saturday's game.

[dchen09]

Even if he is cleared to play, he still missed out on 2 months of practice and more impotantly, 2 months of cardio. He's going to need some time to get his wind back. Just think of Quinn Cook and Shabazz Muhammad as prime examples of how missing time due to injury can effect your play. If he can play 2-4 minutes in this Saturday's game and not look completely lost, I'll be very happy.

[loran16]

Even if he is cleared to play, he still missed out on 2 months of practice and more impotantly, 2 months of cardio. He's going to need some time to get his wind back. Just think of Quinn Cook and Shabazz Muhammad as prime examples of how missing time due to injury can effect your play. If he can play 2-4 minutes in this Saturday's game and not look completely lost, I'll be very happy.

There's no reason for him to play if he's not ready, even if hes physically able. After Temple, Duke has another 11 day break - he can wait till after then. (Speaking of which, after that 11 day break Duke has back to back home games...what's with that?)

[CDu]

There's no reason for him to play if he's not ready, even if hes physically able. After Temple, Duke has another 11 day break - he can wait till after then. (Speaking of which, after that 11 day break Duke has back to back home games...what's with that?)

Yeah, I'd rather he not play until his physically ready (both his foot and his conditioning). We have played and beaten better teams than Temple without Marshall. No reason to bring him back before he's ready. That said, IF he is ready to go by Saturday, all the better. I haven't seen any information suggesting he is or is not expected to be ready by Saturday, which is why I asked.

Also, it is indeed strange to see two games on back-to-back days, with neither being part of a tournament.

[oldnavy]

With all the talk about playing time, I thought Coach K's comments in the Delaware pre-game with Bob Harris removed all doubt about what K thinks about the bench. He said something along the lines of playing time is not an equal opportunity situation and never will be with him. The really good kids are going to play. He mentioned Ryan, Mason, Seth and Quinn... saying that each of them are going to get 30+ minutes a game. That doesn't leave a lot of time. He also mentioned that the development of the starters as a team playing together was more important than developing depth (at least that is what I got from what he said).

Also, he mentioned that it would not be "fair" to the really good players to sit them just to get PT for the bench players.

My take on what he said was that when you have really good players, they play. The rest works itself out...

If there is any way to go back and listen to the pre-game it would be a good thing to do for those who want to get insight into how Coach K looks at PT.

[Kedsy]

With all the talk about playing time, I thought Coach K's comments in the Delaware pre-game with Bob Harris removed all doubt about what K thinks about the bench. He said something along the lines of playing time is not an equal opportunity situation and never will be with him. The really good kids are going to play. He mentioned Ryan, Mason, Seth and Quinn... saying that each of them are going to get 30+ minutes a game. That doesn't leave a lot of time. He also mentioned that the development of the starters as a team playing together was more important than developing depth (at least that is what I got from what he said).

Personally, I think the doubt has been removed for years. The interesting thing is if the five starters play 30 mpg and Tyler plays 15 or 20, that still leaves 30 to 35 minutes to be split by Marshall, Josh, Amile, and Alex. If the five starters play 35 minutes and Tyler gets 15, then there are only 10 total minutes available to be split by the last four guys. Huge difference.

[roywhite]

Personally, I think the doubt has been removed for years. The interesting thing is if the five starters play 30 mpg and Tyler plays 15 or 20, that still leaves 30 to 35 minutes to be split by Marshall, Josh, Amile, and Alex. If the five starters play 35 minutes and Tyler gets 15, then there are only 10 total minutes available to be split by the last four guys. Huge difference.

I'm having a hard time figuring which starter's minutes we would want to cut.

Maybe Seth is a bit uncertain due to his injury status, and maybe we want to give Mason a breather occasionally, or foul trouble becomes a regular problem.

[Lar77]

Personally, I think the doubt has been removed for years. The interesting thing is if the five starters play 30 mpg and Tyler plays 15 or 20, that still leaves 30 to 35 minutes to be split by Marshall, Josh, Amile, and Alex. If the five starters play 35 minutes and Tyler gets 15, then there are only 10 total minutes available to be split by the last four guys. Huge difference.

So far, the starters are each averaging over 30 minutes (the Delaware game kind of skewed results) and Tyler's getting just over 20. My guess is that Marshall, Josh, Amile and Alex will spell Mason and Ryan and Amile and Alex will go in occasionally to present a bigger line up with Quinn/Seth/Tyler sitting. Given that, the bench should get 40-45 minutes with Tyler getting roughly half and the rest splitting based on situation.

[Kedsy]

I'm having a hard time figuring which starter's minutes we would want to cut.

Maybe Seth is a bit uncertain due to his injury status, and maybe we want to give Mason a breather occasionally, or foul trouble becomes a regular problem.

I'm not suggesting we should cut anybody's minutes. Actually, I'm not suggesting anything, just thinking out loud. Right now, the five starters average 158 minutes (31.6 each) and Tyler averages 22. Which leaves 20 minutes to split among Marshall, Josh, Amile, and Alex. I'd be surprised if that 31.6 number goes down in big and/or close games after January 1. The question therefore is whether it stays the same, allowing for at least a couple of the remaining four to get meaningful minutes, or whether it goes up even more, essentially squashing any chance our young big men have to play more than mop-up duty (or, more likely, allowing just one of them to play around 10 mpg as a big man backup). Having said all that, history suggests the starters' minutes will go up.

[roywhite]

I'm not suggesting we should cut anybody's minutes. Actually, I'm not suggesting anything, just thinking out loud. Right now, the five starters average 158 minutes (31.6 each) and Tyler averages 22. Which leaves 20 minutes to split among Marshall, Josh, Amile, and Alex. I'd be surprised if that 31.6 number goes down in big and/or close games after January 1. The question therefore is whether it stays the same, allowing for at least a couple of the remaining four to get meaningful minutes, or whether it goes up even more, essentially squashing any chance our young big men have to play more than mop-up duty (or, more likely, allowing just one of them to play around 10 mpg as a big man backup). Having said all that, history suggests the starters' minutes will go up.

Yeah, same here....very pleased with what we've seen so far from Mason, Ryan, Quinn, Rasheed, and Seth, and not really looking for their roles to decrease....just how best to supplement and back up.

Biggest current concern along these lines is Seth's durability.

[superdave]

I'm having a hard time figuring which starter's minutes we would want to cut.

Maybe Seth is a bit uncertain due to his injury status, and maybe we want to give Mason a breather occasionally, or foul trouble becomes a regular problem.

In 2010, Nolan, Jon and Kyle averaged 35+ minutes each. In 2011, Nolan and Kyle averaged 34+ each.

Right now, Mason is at 33.8 and Ryan at 30.3. I think that is probably the upper limit for each guy, considering physical interior play and managing foul trouble. Unless we're against an inferior, holiday opponent, I think it's more ideal to play Marshall whatever minutes Mason is not on the floor (6-7 per) than Ryan/Josh/Alex/Amile at the 5.

Quinn is at 31.4 and Tyler at 22.1. I think as long as Quinn continues to play at a high level on both ends, his minutes will increase at the expense of Tyler.

Seth is the real wild card here. If he misses a game here and there, or an entire stretch of the season, then Alex/Amile will likely benefit.

[theAlaskanBear]

In 2010, Nolan, Jon and Kyle averaged 35+ minutes each. In 2011, Nolan and Kyle averaged 34+ each.

Right now, Mason is at 33.8 and Ryan at 30.3. I think that is probably the upper limit for each guy, considering physical interior play and managing foul trouble. Unless we're against an inferior, holiday opponent, I think it's more ideal to play Marshall whatever minutes Mason is not on the floor (6-7 per) than Ryan/Josh/Alex/Amile at the 5.

Quinn is at 31.4 and Tyler at 22.1. I think as long as Quinn continues to play at a high level on both ends, his minutes will increase at the expense of Tyler.

Seth is the real wild card here. If he misses a game here and there, or an entire stretch of the season, then Alex/Amile will likely benefit.

Given the prevalence of a guard-oriented lineup wouldn't Thornton be the biggest beneficiary of downtime for Seth? I think Rasheed would slide to the 3 and you would have Thornton and Cook for stretches when Thornton isn't backing up Cook. Or is Rasheed's perimeter D important enough to keep him against the best opposing guard, thus necessitating Alex or Amile to guard the 3?

[dchen09]

There's no reason for him to play if he's not ready, even if hes physically able. After Temple, Duke has another 11 day break - he can wait till after then. (Speaking of which, after that 11 day break Duke has back to back home games...what's with that?)

I'm not suggesting that he returns before he's ready (and thus possibly risking further injury). All I'm saying is that regardless of when he returns, he won't be as good as if he had played/practice through 2 months of the season already. We shouldn't expect that he live up to the "6th best player" level of play that maybe some of us had anticipated earlier this year.

[oldnavy]

Personally, I think the doubt has been removed for years. The interesting thing is if the five starters play 30 mpg and Tyler plays 15 or 20, that still leaves 30 to 35 minutes to be split by Marshall, Josh, Amile, and Alex. If the five starters play 35 minutes and Tyler gets 15, then there are only 10 total minutes available to be split by the last four guys. Huge difference.

If I remember correctly Coach K did say 30 to 35 minutes each...

Did anyone else hear what he said??

I am about 95% sure he said they would average between 30 and 35 minutes, so I think 30 would be the bottom, and in some games Mason or Kelly could play all 40. Seth would be in that group as well as long as he can do it with the injury.

What I thought was particularly interesting was his comment on "developing" the core players. It was like all people want to talk about is developing the bench and depth, but he placed a significant importance on developing the starters as a unit and individuals... makes sense, because as good a Mason and Ryan and Seth and Quinn are, they will or should get better over the year....

[Dev11]

Consider me shocked that a thread about Marshall Plumlee's ailing foot has devolved into a minutes discussion. When do get to the part where we bash Roy and complain about the new ACC?

[ForkFondler]

Consider me shocked that a thread about Marshall Plumlee's ailing foot has devolved into a minutes discussion. When do get to the part where we bash Roy and complain about the new ACC?

I call an intentional thread drifting foul.

[TruBlu]

Consider me shocked that a thread about Marshall Plumlee's ailing foot has devolved into a minutes discussion. When do get to the part where we bash Roy and complain about the new ACC?

And apparently Wojo did not develop Marshall's feet too well.

[uh_no]

I call an intentional thread drifting foul.

is that Ewing's second? That ejects him right?

[BD80]

Consider me shocked that a thread about Marshall Plumlee's ailing foot has devolved into a minutes discussion. ...

The movie threads on the off-topic board devolve into a minutes discussion. Something about Lincoln scoring 4 and 7. But he was certainly a team first guy, unity and all that. Wonder if he used the fingers/fist analogy.

[superdave]

The movie threads on the off-topic board devolve into a minutes discussion. Something about Lincoln scoring 4 and 7. But he was certainly a team first guy, unity and all that. Wonder if he used the fingers/fist analogy.

Lincoln had a great drop step. But not as good as Marshall's. There, we're back on topic.

I'm guessing we will not know if Marshall is ready until game time Saturday. But if we hear he is practicing, then that will be a sign in that direction.

[Kfanarmy]

Does anyone have anything new on Marshall's anticipated return? TKS

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Does anyone have anything new on Marshall's anticipated return? TKS


I have no insight but looking at their schedule, I would venture to guess the earliest return for MPIII would be 12/29 againt Santa Clara. We have a 9 day Christmas break so to me it would make sense to use that break to continue his rehab and getting back into basketball shape. I don't think we need to rush him back against a Temple, Cornell, or Elon team. Thoughts?

[TruBlu]

I have no insight but looking at their schedule, I would venture to guess the earliest return for MPIII would be 12/29 againt Santa Clara. We have a 9 day Christmas break so to me it would make sense to use that break to continue his rehab and getting back into basketball shape. I don't think we need to rush him back against a Temple, Cornell, or Elon team. Thoughts?

I agree 100%, which, of course, means he will play 40 minutes against Temple.

On the other hand, if he is completely over his injury, with no chance of re-injury, these could be games where he could "play" his way back into basketball shape.

In summary, I can't make up my mind.

[gep]

I agree 100%, which, of course, means he will play 40 minutes against Temple.

On the other hand, if he is completely over his injury, with no chance of re-injury, these could be games where he could "play" his way back into basketball shape.

In summary, I can't make up my mind.

This was my thought, also. It's like the Delaware game... Alex and Amile got good experience, with the game in hand. Might be good for Marshall to get his feet wet.

[Dev11]

I agree 100%, which, of course, means he will play 40 minutes against Temple.

On the other hand, if he is completely over his injury, with no chance of re-injury, these could be games where he could "play" his way back into basketball shape.

In summary, I can't make up my mind.

Of all the people I hope are secretly not Coach K in disguise on this message board, you just jumped right to the top of my list.

If this injury persists, I am going to have to start ignoring this vigil like I did the Kyrie one.

[Big Pappa]

Below is a conversation that took place on twitter a few hours ago. Basically Laura Keeley says that Marshall has been practicing and that it's a possibility that he plays on Saturday.

Laura Keeley ‏@laurakeeley
"He's been practicing RT @duke2013champs @laurakeeley what are the chances marshall makes his debut for the santa clara game on the 29th?"

Jeff Edwards ‏@duke2013champs
"@laurakeeley what are chances he plays saturday?"

Laura Keeley ‏@laurakeeley
"@duke2013champs it's a possibility. They haven't set a definite return date"

[CDu]

According to Goodman and Borzello, Marshall Plumlee is "expected to play Dec 19." I don't know how accurate this is. But it sounds like he won't play this weekend.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21306489/monthly-injury-report-whos-out-and-who-will-be-back-soon

Even if it's the 19th or 20th, it would be great for him to get some game action before the ACC season starts.

[DukeBlueHeart4]

According to Goodman and Borzello, Marshall Plumlee is "expected to play Dec 19." I don't know how accurate this is. But it sounds like he won't play this weekend.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21306489/monthly-injury-report-whos-out-and-who-will-be-back-soon

Even if it's the 19th or 20th, it would be great for him to get some game action before the ACC season starts.

This has been echoed by espn's Dana O'Niell so says that Coach K says Marshall is "likely" to play on December 19th. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8727387/the-duke-blue-devils-winning-great-talent-commitment-roles-college-basketball

[DU82]

This has been echoed by espn's Dana O'Niell so says that Coach K says Marshall is "likely" to play on December 19th. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8727387/the-duke-blue-devils-winning-great-talent-commitment-roles-college-basketball

At today's game, Marshall took part in the pre-game warm-ups for the first time this year. Thought he might come in, but I guess they want another 11 days of getting back in basketball shape. Plus, didn't want any Temple players stepping on his foot.

[moonpie23]

we get there when WE GET THERE!!!!!

[NSDukeFan]

we get there when WE GET THERE!!!!!

Are we there yet?

[uh_no]

Are we there yet?

don't make me turn this season around! we'll go RIGHT back to the off-season unless you keep it down back there.

[burnspbesq]

don't make me turn this season around! we'll go RIGHT back to the off-season unless you keep it down back there.

I told you you should have gotten the back-seat video system when you bought the new minivan.

[westwall]

Marshall took the full pre-game practice with the team prior to the Temple game today. He looked ready to play, if needed, which he wasn't. Suspect it is only a question of getting sufficient practice time before he is available in the rotation.

[devildeac]

Marshall took the full pre-game practice with the team prior to the Temple game today. He looked ready to play, if needed, which he wasn't. Suspect it is only a question of getting sufficient practice time before he is available in the rotation.

Saw where K confirmed in Raleigh N&O article this AM that he was indeed ready to play if needed yesterday so this is good.

[Dev11]

Suspect it is only a question of getting sufficient practice time before he is available in the rotation.

Don't forget, he still has to beat out Todd on the depth chart. I hope Marshall can match the veteran savvy and pick and roll prowess of #52.

[striker219]

Don't forget, he still has to beat out Todd on the depth chart. I hope Marshall can match the veteran savvy and pick and roll prowess of #52.

Which could be especially tough considering their history. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb5TNX44tmI)