DukeForward: Improvements to Wallace Wade, Cameron, Other Athletic Facilities

[blazindw]

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/20315127/article-Duke-sets-Wallace-Wade--Cameron-improvements?instance=home_breaking_news

Multiple phase project, but the first phase will start with Wally Wade, where the track will be moved to a new track-only stadium located where the turf fields next to Koskinen Stadium currently are. New club seats, improved restroom and concession facilities, and a new building to hold luxury suites and a press box. Finally, the horseshoe will be closed and seats built closer to the field, adding 10,000 seats to bring Wally Wade to a capacity of 44,000.

The turf fields would be moved to the fields across Bassett Drive, and a new press box will be built between Koskinen and the new track stadium with windows to serve both.

[dukelifer]

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/20315127/article-Duke-sets-Wallace-Wade--Cameron-improvements?instance=home_breaking_news

Multiple phase project, but the first phase will start with Wally Wade, where the track will be moved to a new track-only stadium located where the turf fields next to Koskinen Stadium currently are. New club seats, improved restroom and concession facilities, and a new building to hold luxury suites and a press box. Finally, the horseshoe will be closed and seats built closer to the field, adding 10,000 seats to bring Wally Wade to a capacity of 44,000.

The turf fields would be moved to the fields across Bassett Drive, and a new press box will be built between Koskinen and the new track stadium with windows to serve both.

It would be great if Duke got to a point where it needs 10K more seats. I just do not think the demand is there to justify such an expansion. We shall see.

[blazindw]

It would be great if Duke got to a point where it needs 10K more seats. I just do not think the demand is there to justify such an expansion. We shall see.

The demand will come. Better gameday experience coupled with an improved product on the field will cause more people to come out. Luxury boxes/club seats will bring in more revenue as well. Coach Cut is leaving his mark on the program for better and for always. And as someone who worked for the team for 3 seasons, I love it and want more of it!

[Lunchab1es]

Great indication of Duke's increased investment in the program. The renovations will help bring our stadium in line with what is expected of a quality program, rather than being a detractor. Appearances can be powerful, and this can only mean good things for the building of our program.

[duke09hms]

On the surface it does seem weird to be adding capacity to 44k when we can't even fill 33k, but they are addressing the terrible gameday atmosphere in WW by removing the track and placing seats closer to the field. Only way to do that is to add seats.

[jwillfan]

'cause right now, when we can barely put 20K seats in the stands, the parking and traffic situation currently is awful. As soon as we start putting 30-35K folks in the stadium it will be a terrible experience for fans trying to arrive.

[Kimist]

'cause right now, when we can barely put 20K seats in the stands, the parking and traffic situation currently is awful. As soon as we start putting 30-35K folks in the stadium it will be a terrible experience for fans trying to arrive.

I was wondering the same thing, although realistically speaking I think it will be some time before Duke can gather a large "local" crowd. Even in the Spurrier years, there often were many empty seats in Wally Wade...and that was at its current capacity.

Another more timely issue is that the new construction mentioned will displace a large segment of the richest "#1" Iron Dukes current parking. You know they will still be afforded the "best" available parking from whatever remains. Those Iron Dukes of lesser means may find themselves moved much further away from their current parking lots for the football and basketball games. There is only a limited amount of open space on West Campus.

k

[Scorp4me]

This is coming from someone who has been attending football games for quite some time now, but this seems like a terrible idea. Make the stadium look even more empty??? Seriously? Rather than air my personal opinion on it I'll just ask an objective question.

Has there been a time when Wallace Wade required more seats? I'm sure there are attendance records, anyone point us in the right direction?

[peloton]

Scorp, my son and I went to a home game 2 years ago against some team from the deep south...don't remember who they were though :rolleyes:. Suffice it to say that our opponent garnered enough respect that a large number of temporary bleachers were installed for the game, closing off the open end of Wallace Wade. We were of course shellacked by the Alabama Crimson Tide but it was an experience nevertheless to see the stadium full - the atmosphere was electric (of course that might've had something to do with the heat that day which was close to unbearable). That's the only time I can think of in recent history when we added temporary seats.

[TruBlu]

This is coming from someone who has been attending football games for quite some time now, but this seems like a terrible idea. Make the stadium look even more empty??? Seriously? Rather than air my personal opinion on it I'll just ask an objective question.

Well, we could put dummies in the seats to make the stadium seem full. (There are thousands of available, cheap "dummies" just a few miles down 15-501 . . . of course we would have to provide them with clothing that is an improved shade of blue.)

[msdukie]

This is coming from someone who has been attending football games for quite some time now, but this seems like a terrible idea. Make the stadium look even more empty??? Seriously? Rather than air my personal opinion on it I'll just ask an objective question.

Has there been a time when Wallace Wade required more seats? I'm sure there are attendance records, anyone point us in the right direction?

Back in the 40s and 50s, when Duke was a power, temporary bleachers were added many times with crowds of I believe 55,000 or so at times.

[devildeac]

Well, we could put dummies in the seats to make the stadium seem full. (There are thousands of available, cheap "dummies" just a few miles down 15-501 . . . of course we would have to provide them with clothing that is an improved shade of blue.)

Don't worry, those "dummies" will be attending the game in (most likely) large numbers October 20:mad:.

[BD80]

Well, we could put dummies in the seats to make the stadium seem full. (There are thousands of available, cheap "dummies" just a few miles down 15-501 . . . of course we would have to provide them with clothing that is an improved shade of blue.)

I think they'll get AFAM credit for their attendance.

[Greg_Newton]

I can't imagine that the endzone seating expansion would come for a decade or so, if that. Wasn't the optimistic projection for beginning the field-lowering like 2015 or so? Seems like they left themselves enough flexibility to wait until demand picks up.

The field-lowering phase can't come fast enough, though. I was exciting to read that some WW renovations could be done for the 2014 season, but I think that must mean the restrooms/concessions renovations. I believe those were slated as first on the agenda.

[OldPhiKap]

Better game atmosphere = better performance + more fans wanting to be part of Game Day.

I am a big fan of this, understanding the concerns of those who disagree. You wanna play with the big boys, don't play in a sandbox.

[SmartDevil]

I think they'll get AFAM credit for their attendance.

Attemding is not a prerequisite for obtaining course credits. ;)

[Atldukie79]

As a traditionalist, I tend to want to preserve the existing facilities as they are. But I have come to appreciate that the "venerable" facilities that we now have were once innovative and forward for their time. I am quite sure a message board such as this one (if it were available in the 1920's and 40's) would have been inundated with naysayers challenging the monstrous facilities being built. Duke Stadium was huge for its time. Duke Indoor (Cameron) was the largest south of Philly when built.

It may seem odd to the inhabitants of a half empty WW why an expansion should occur, but sometimes the investment precedes the success...in fact leads it.

[Lunchab1es]

Has there been a time when Wallace Wade required more seats? I'm sure there are attendance records, anyone point us in the right direction?

They had to add additional seating when Alabama came to Durham two or so years ago. Granted, that was mostly because their fans travel so well.

[Jarhead]

This is coming from someone who has been attending football games for quite some time now, but this seems like a terrible idea. Make the stadium look even more empty??? Seriously? Rather than air my personal opinion on it I'll just ask an objective question.

Has there been a time when Wallace Wade required more seats? I'm sure there are attendance records, anyone point us in the right direction?

According to Wikipedia, the record attendance of 57,000 was for a game against Carolina on Nov 19 1949. Duke was 6 and 3 that year, and we lost to Carolina 21-20. I believe that was Charlie Justice's last College game. And yes there were plenty of bleachers all around the concourse behind each section with 20 or more rows of seats. I don't recall when they were removed.

[snowdenscold]

So if the track moves to where the turf fields are, and the turf fields move across Bassett to where the grass fields are, where do the grass fields go? (if anywhere)

[DU82]

According to Wikipedia, the record attendance of 57,000 was for a game against Carolina on Nov 19 1949. Duke was 6 and 3 that year, and we lost to Carolina 21-20. I believe that was Charlie Justice's last College game. And yes there were plenty of bleachers all around the concourse behind each section with 20 or more rows of seats. I don't recall when they were removed.

I remember bleachers on the concourse during my first season, 1978. The stadium was painted white with blue trim. After that season, the stadium was renovated, with the wooden bleachers removed for the metal ones, the concrete was repaired, and the stadium was painted beige. I believe the Chronicle, for its April 1st edition, printed a photo of the repairs underway (with the concrete chopped up) and compared it to the Roman Colliseum.

[Duke of Nashville]

So with the circle having a new building on its location where will Eddie Cameron be going???

[WhiteboardGuy]

Forget Wally Wade for a moment

"Inside Cameron, new luxury suites will be built under and behind the seating bowl where offices are now located."

I can only assume that means the non tv side bleachers will be torn out and replaced with boxes? If so, count me out on this plan..

[blazindw]

Forget Wally Wade for a moment

"Inside Cameron, new luxury suites will be built under and behind the seating bowl where offices are now located."

I can only assume that means the non tv side bleachers will be torn out and replaced with boxes? If so, count me out on this plan..

No, that is not the case. I've bolded the part of the quote you mentioned that indicates that. Also, earlier in that paragraph, it says that the current shape and size of Cameron will not be changed. These will not be suites for people to watch the game live, but more like club suites with TVs that people can access before the game or at halftime.

[dukelifer]

Better game atmosphere = better performance + more fans wanting to be part of Game Day.

I am a big fan of this, understanding the concerns of those who disagree. You wanna play with the big boys, don't play in a sandbox.

Ultimately it comes down to play on the field. If Duke is a competitive teams in the new ACC- they may get some more fans to come. But I am not convinced the local fanbase is big enough. Duke needs to first sell football to the student body - who save all their Duke mania for bball. They are the drivers for a gameday atmosphere at a University. If they are not excited- no one else will be. But Duke will need to be consistently Bowl eligible to get the students interested. That is a very tall order. If it were me- I would start there. Get the students in the seats somehow- even if you give them free food and drink. Next week will be an interesting test- Will the stadium be more full with students now that Duke is winning? I expect it will - but a loss can turn it all around. Football loyalty at Duke is very fragile with fans under 45 years old and especially the student body.

[Dev11]

Ultimately it comes down to play on the field. If Duke is a competitive teams in the new ACC- they may get some more fans to come. But I am not convinced the local fanbase is big enough. Duke needs to first sell football to the student body - who save all their Duke mania for bball. They are the drivers for a gameday atmosphere at a University. If they are not excited- no one else will be. But Duke will need to be consistently Bowl eligible to get the students interested. That is a very tall order. If it were me- I would start there. Get the students in the seats somehow- even if you give them free food and drink. Next week will be an interesting test- Will the stadium be more full with students now that Duke is winning? I expect it will - but a loss can turn it all around. Football loyalty at Duke is very fragile with fans under 45 years old and especially the student body.

Actually, the student body, while potentially the most excitable portion of the crowd, is not able to make a huge impact given its size. For the biggest college basketball game on the whole calendar, Duke gets 1,500 students to show up. That would fill two sections of Wallace Wade, if that. It is the local community that needs to be roused for Duke football to fill it up.

I'm excited for this renovation, and I intend to do my very small part to make it happen.

[blazindw]

It's also about improving facilities to make it so top recruits can see themselves at Duke playing the best level of football there is. I see a day where we can compete with Notre Dame and Stanford for football recruits (of course, their football traditions are a bit stronger than ours, especially recently). Improved gameday atmosphere goes hand-in-hand, both for spectators and the on-field product.

Going to bowl games and getting that exposure, as we all know, is the next goal for us. Looking at the projected nonconference schedules (you can view any team's projected nonconference schedules at www.fbsschedules.com), we are set up where we have 3-4 winnable games from our nonconference schedule:

2013 - Navy, @Memphis, NCCU
2014 - Kansas, Elon, Tulane
2015 - NW, @Army, NCCU, @Tulane

Also, within the conference we can be sure we'll meet BC, MD and Cuse during these years as well. Our schedule is set up for success over the next few years. Capitalizing on that will help bring new recruits, which will help our program grow. All of this trickles down to the other sports. Increasing our football revenue will definitely help our athletic department as a whole (even basketball). We all see the potential is there. I think it's great we're focused on building upon it.

[dukelifer]

Actually, the student body, while potentially the most excitable portion of the crowd, is not able to make a huge impact given its size. For the biggest college basketball game on the whole calendar, Duke gets 1,500 students to show up. That would fill two sections of Wallace Wade, if that. It is the local community that needs to be roused for Duke football to fill it up.

I'm excited for this renovation, and I intend to do my very small part to make it happen.

I am pretty sure if Duke opened the gates to all students (undergrad and grad) for the UNC game- they would get more than 1500 students to show up. Duke has 6500 ugrads and 8000+ grad students (although not all local or Duke fans). So 14,000+ potential student bodies to go into Walace Wade but I doubt Duke gets more than 750 to show up for football on a regular basis. Duke's biggest home crowd is when they give away tickets to employees to start the season. Duke has 35K employees. Starting with that group- you can fill some seats to create a real atmosphere. The trick is to get them to come on a regular basis. Free or very cheap helps. Duke makes most of their money from ACC TV revenue and most of their Athletics income from Iron Duke donations because basketball is so consistently good and popular. Atmosphere is what they need. The players do not care how the fans get into the seats.

[dukelifer]

It's also about improving facilities to make it so top recruits can see themselves at Duke playing the best level of football there is. I see a day where we can compete with Notre Dame and Stanford for football recruits (of course, their football traditions are a bit stronger than ours, especially recently). Improved gameday atmosphere goes hand-in-hand, both for spectators and the on-field product.

Going to bowl games and getting that exposure, as we all know, is the next goal for us. Looking at the projected nonconference schedules (you can view any team's projected nonconference schedules at www.fbsschedules.com), we are set up where we have 3-4 winnable games from our nonconference schedule:

2013 - Navy, @Memphis, NCCU
2014 - Kansas, Elon, Tulane
2015 - NW, @Army, NCCU, @Tulane

Also, within the conference we can be sure we'll meet BC, MD and Cuse during these years as well. Our schedule is set up for success over the next few years. Capitalizing on that will help bring new recruits, which will help our program grow. All of this trickles down to the other sports. Increasing our football revenue will definitely help our athletic department as a whole (even basketball). We all see the potential is there. I think it's great we're focused on building upon it.

Cameron is one of the smallest and old school venues for basketball yet players dream of playing for Duke because of the excitement of the fans. Excitement brings players- not the stadium infrastructure - in my opinion. The training facilities and coaches do matter though. I agree that Duke is poised to have some success going forward but it is fragile for sure.

[Acymetric]

Cameron is one of the smallest and old school venues for basketball yet players dream of playing for Duke because of the excitement of the fans. Excitement brings players- not the stadium infrastructure - in my opinion. The training facilities and coaches do matter though. I agree that Duke is poised to have some success going forward but it is fragile for sure.

People make that comparison all the time, but Wallace Wade is not Cameron. Cameron is consistently rated as one of the best places to watch a college basketball game, and the mystique and volume level probably help draw recruits in. Wallace Wade has no such mystique and certainly no volume level. Its not like the stadium looks full now anyway, no harm in making it look slightly less full while also making it look like the stadium of a real FBS competitor in football. Plus making big changes to the stadium allows for recruiting pitches that emphasize Duke being on the path to really competing, and shows recruits that Duke is committed to making some noise. I think recruits could buy into that.

[SharkD]

I am pretty sure if Duke opened the gates to all students (undergrad and grad) for the UNC game- they would get more than 1500 students to show up. Duke has 6500 ugrads and 8000+ grad students (although not all local or Duke fans). So 14,000+ potential student bodies to go into Walace Wade but I doubt Duke gets more than 750 to show up for football on a regular basis. Duke's biggest home crowd is when they give away tickets to employees to start the season. Duke has 35K employees. Starting with that group- you can fill some seats to create a real atmosphere. The trick is to get them to come on a regular basis. Free or very cheap helps. Duke makes most of their money from ACC TV revenue and most of their Athletics income from Iron Duke donations because basketball is so consistently good and popular. Atmosphere is what they need. The players do not care how the fans get into the seats.

The vast majority of the crowd in the away side sections, at least through section 10, are employees. We're offered season tickets at a slightly reduced rate, though prices jumped considerably, this year, compared to years past.

[BD80]

... Duke needs to first sell football to the student body - who save all their Duke mania for bball. ... Get the students in the seats somehow- ... Football loyalty at Duke is very fragile with fans under 45 years old and especially the student body.

Back when I was at Duke we were already in line for basketball seats during football season, despite the snow and sub-zero temperatures ...

Football games were a great place to lay out in the sun and recover from Friday night. You might have to walk down to the the 25 yard line to find a stretch of bleachers open enough to lie down, but you'd still be within 15 or 20 rows of the field. It was generally quiet enough you could sleep until something exciting happened.

The basketball team (at first) wasn't much better than the football team back then, but it was far higher in the priorities of the student body. Now, students enter Duke with expectations regarding basketball, but none for football. Not an easy sell.

[dukejim1]

Have their been any artist (or in today's world, digitally created) renditions of these changes been released. If so, I would love to have a link. Thanks

[-bdbd]

According to Wikipedia, the record attendance of 57,000 was for a game against Carolina on Nov 19 1949. Duke was 6 and 3 that year, and we lost to Carolina 21-20. I believe that was Charlie Justice's last College game. And yes there were plenty of bleachers all around the concourse behind each section with 20 or more rows of seats. I don't recall when they were removed.

The tall bleachers behind quite a few of the sections were there in a semi-permanent state when I arrived at Duke in 1979. I believe they were removed around 1980-1981. If you look at pictures from the air of some major Duke games of the past, such as the 1942 Rose Bowl played at WW a few weeks after Pearl Harbor, there were also tall bleachers also behind the end-zone at the "open" end of the horseshoe. BTW, the 'closing in of the horseshoe' seating addition is scheduled to be in the final phase of all of these upgrades, so clearly the plan is to see if/when additional fans start showing up - after all of the other improvements - and the sort-of optimistic expectation that many more fans will begin to show up at WW. If they don't show up right away then that part of the plan probably gets deferred somewhat. But I am glad that it is part of the plan in any event.

I am a big fan of this move. I think the timing is right, before K potentially retires (who knows what that impact will be???), and after Cut has begun the heavy lifting effort or restoring credibility to the FB program. Facillities improvements like these will make recruiting easier and certainly attract more fans. Add to that a better product on the field (due to more pride, better facillities, louder/enthusiastic game-day experience, better recruiting and the critical mass behind all of these things happening at once) and I expect it is a reasonable expectation to THEN need the extra seats. BTW, the added seats and closer seats to the field are, in a sense, a self-fulfilling prophecy, as they too improve the experience, help the team with more crowd noise and enthusiasm, and attract more fans in and of themselves.

I don't know the figures, but hypothetically, the last $100M of this capital campaign would theoreticallly be what is targeted for closing the seating horseshoe. But there's a lot of funds to be raised between now and then... :rolleyes:

[fh84]

I concur with a lot that has been said. I think a big part to get a better atmosphere during games and people will start to come more regularly. In some sense it can be a vicious or virtuous cycle. Maybe a successful season this year and a win again our "friends" from down the road in three weeks can light the fire.
Maybe Duke also needs a big marketing campaign within Durham. First make it about the experience of live football, for families etc., then get these people to come back.

But if we renovate Wally Wade, can we please get new bleachers? Who is able to sit on these things for a whole football game without hurting? Maybe new bleachers would already help to keep fans from leaving at half time... ;)

[Acymetric]

If you watched the Duke Football show with Coach Cut this morning (on ABC) they are showing 3d computer models of what the upgrades will look like (at least a preliminary plan). Looks really amazing. If you were questioning the extra seats, you won't when you see what that thing looks like closed in. Somebody get me a better job so I can break out the checkbook! ;)

[blazindw]

If you watched the Duke Football show with Coach Cut this morning (on ABC) they are showing 3d computer models of what the upgrades will look like (at least a preliminary plan). Looks really amazing. If you were questioning the extra seats, you won't when you see what that thing looks like closed in. Somebody get me a better job so I can break out the checkbook! ;)

Another thing that the closed horseshoe will hopefully do...keep noise in, making Wally Wade louder. I'm hoping for scoreboards in both endzones as well.

[dukelifer]

The vast majority of the crowd in the away side sections, at least through section 10, are employees. We're offered season tickets at a slightly reduced rate, though prices jumped considerably, this year, compared to years past.

I am there as well- and it is not very full- well, less full than last year. Increase in prices is not a good incentive to keep folks coming. Again it is fragile and it would not take much for that loyal group to stop coming as well.

[dukelifer]

Back when I was at Duke we were already in line for basketball seats during football season, despite the snow and sub-zero temperatures ...

Football games were a great place to lay out in the sun and recover from Friday night. You might have to walk down to the the 25 yard line to find a stretch of bleachers open enough to lie down, but you'd still be within 15 or 20 rows of the field. It was generally quiet enough you could sleep until something exciting happened.

The basketball team (at first) wasn't much better than the football team back then, but it was far higher in the priorities of the student body. Now, students enter Duke with expectations regarding basketball, but none for football. Not an easy sell.

Winning sells- and tradition sells. Tradition was there in the 50's and 60's- but not much now as basketball has consumed all the fan interest. So all that is left is winning. Clearly it is a chicken and egg problem- can't win without great players- and some believe you cannot get great players without great things to show them. If Duke upgrades facilities - the expectations will rise. Ultimately- it will come down to what they do on the field. If Duke can also use Wallace Wade for events other than football- perhaps it will be worth it.

[allenmurray]

Has there been a time when Wallace Wade required more seats?

The Rolling Stones concert about 8 years back.

[loran16]

I am pretty sure if Duke opened the gates to all students (undergrad and grad) for the UNC game- they would get more than 1500 students to show up. Duke has 6500 ugrads and 8000+ grad students (although not all local or Duke fans).

Duke ALREADY OPENS the gates to all students, student attendance at any sporting event at Duke is FREE. Despite this, we rarely fill the student section. We'll fill that for UNC, but we won't do much more.

[uh_no]

Duke ALREADY OPENS the gates to all students, student attendance at any sporting event at Duke is FREE. Despite this, we rarely fill the student section. We'll fill that for UNC, but we won't do much more.

This is wrong. It's paid for by the student activities fee that all students are coerced to pay. That doesn't change your main point that cost is not a valid reason for students to not attend, but the students ARE paying for the tickets...just at the beginning of the year.

Effectively the cost of attending is subsidized by the students who don't go.....so even furthering your point, you should attend the games since you've already paid to go!

[dukelifer]

Duke ALREADY OPENS the gates to all students, student attendance at any sporting event at Duke is FREE. Despite this, we rarely fill the student section. We'll fill that for UNC, but we won't do much more.

Grad students have a lottery to get tix.

[dukeman28428]

I concur with a lot that has been said. I think a big part to get a better atmosphere during games and people will start to come more regularly. In some sense it can be a vicious or virtuous cycle. Maybe a successful season this year and a win again our "friends" from down the road in three weeks can light the fire.
Maybe Duke also needs a big marketing campaign within Durham. First make it about the experience of live football, for families etc., then get these people to come back.

But if we renovate Wally Wade, can we please get new bleachers? Who is able to sit on these things for a whole football game without hurting? Maybe new bleachers would already help to keep fans from leaving at half time... ;)

Amen on the new bleachers.......some comfortable seats will go a long way to making the game day experience better. I do agree that Wallace Wade and Cameron need updating. Recruits look at these type of things and if we want to be serious about football, we need competitive facilities. The Brooks pratice field, and the Pascal Field house are tremedous lifts to our program but the stadium and other facilities need updating and if you build it and win, they will come. Count on it and our players and fans deserve better than what we now have. GO DUKE. :cool:

[DieHard]

Are there any plans to improve Baseball facilities?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Are there any plans to improve Baseball facilities?

Baseball got a new artificial surface to play on last year. The stadium itself still needs "improvement".

[DieHard]

Baseball got a new artificial surface to play on last year. The stadium itself still needs "improvement".

The surface change was at least 3 years ago. My son was at their camp two years ago. Their locker room is in Cameron. Indoor batting cages...no. Look at the rest of the ACC, we fall far behind in facilities. With $ flowing, and a new era of coaches, it would be a great time to improve.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The surface change was at least 3 years ago. My son was at their camp two years ago. Their locker room is in Cameron. Indoor batting cages...no. Look at the rest of the ACC, we fall far behind in facilities. With $ flowing, and a new era of coaches, it would be a great time to improve.

Two basketball seasons ago, it was early 2011, devildeac and I were leaving a basketball game walking down to Science Drive behind the baseball field (beyond right field). We noticed the field lights were on, that the fence wasn't up and there was new "Astroturf" on the field! We walked across the mud and onto the warning track in right field. We then heard a booming voice (Sean McNally's?) yell GET OFF THE FIELD! We quickly went back to the driveway where we belonged.

[uh_no]

For a while I've been very disappointed that the track might be gone, but in further consideration, I think its best.

While I disagree with the assertion that a track between the stands and the field makes a bad viewing experiences (plenty of european soccer stadia have tracks), I don't think its a bad decision to remove it. Having the so called "intamicy" (sp) will become a trademark of both duke football and basketball. What concerns me is that the new track will be in a facility comparable to what exists today, in that it can host large meets (such as the duke invitational and the ACC championships). I only hope that the proposals provide that as well as intimacy that WW cannot today provide. What I don't want to see is track+bleachers that we see for koskinen "stadium"....no atmosphere...no character.

What I would love to see is something akin to a hayward field out at U of Oregon....character, intimacy, recognition. Something that recognizes the historical significance the Duke track has provided over the years (namely the international track meets). I think the football stadium will be fine regardless of what happens. It'll be fun to be around the triangle as these changes happen

[Reilly]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=1059109

[Dev11]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=1059109

I LOVE this plan. No idea how long it will take to actually get it all done, but should it come close to all this, I will be immensely proud. I'll make my small contribution :)

[Lid]

I am there as well- and it is not very full- well, less full than last year. Increase in prices is not a good incentive to keep folks coming. Again it is fragile and it would not take much for that loyal group to stop coming as well.

I'm there, too, and agree with your assessment. We had to think seriously about re-upping this year, given the pretty dramatic price jump. I'm glad we did, but I'm not made of money. I'm not surprised that so many others apparently didn't buy tickets this year.

I'm excited about the renovations, but I worry about the outside-the-stadium gameday experience. I haven't seen this addressed at all in the promotional materials. If Duke is serious about drawing local fans to fill all of these new seats, there needs to be serious attention paid to the parking situation. We went to the game at Wake this weekend, and I was blown away by the great experience there. We parked about a block from the entrance gate, paid $10 (same as Duke charges, but ~ 1/2 a mile closer to the stadium), sat in relatively comfortable bleachers (had a back, at least), and had a GREAT view of the field, even from ~50 rows up, due to the angle of the stadium. Of course, my opinion of all of this might have been slightly colored by my joy at the game's outcome.

Also, we totally need to have $3 hot cinnamon-sugar soft pretzels for sale. YUM.

[killerleft]

Actually, the student body, while potentially the most excitable portion of the crowd, is not able to make a huge impact given its size. For the biggest college basketball game on the whole calendar, Duke gets 1,500 students to show up. That would fill two sections of Wallace Wade, if that. It is the local community that needs to be roused for Duke football to fill it up.

I'm excited for this renovation, and I intend to do my very small part to make it happen.

It should be apparent to all that the student body will be only a small part of the Duke Football experience. As several people have said in other threads on student participation, the present student body is more of a "me" than "us" crowd. Why Duke differs from virtually every other campus in the nation is debatable, but I see no evidence that even hints that students will be a large part of football for years, if ever. Showing up and leaving before or at halftime doesn't really count for much, even on the occasions when the seats are full for a short bit.

I would absolutely love to be proved wrong. Three sections of undergrad and grad students would be awesome.

P.S. The Band, Cheerleaders, and Dancing Devils are awesome already!! And the small group of student fans who stay for the whole game are, too!

[ChillinDuke]

It should be apparent to all that the student body will be only a small part of the Duke Football experience. As several people have said in other threads on student participation, the present student body is more of a "me" than "us" crowd. Why Duke differs from virtually every other campus in the nation is debatable, but I see no evidence that even hints that students will be a large part of football for years, if ever. Showing up and leaving before or at halftime doesn't really count for much, even on the occasions when the seats are full for a short bit.

I would absolutely love to be proved wrong. Three sections of undergrad and grad students would be awesome.

P.S. The Band, Cheerleaders, and Dancing Devils are awesome already!! And the small group of student fans who stay for the whole game are, too!

I don't disagree with you at all. But it is going to be (and currently is) a very difficult task to get the student body to be "a large part of football for years" simply by the numbers.

Duke only has about 6,400 undergrads. At a stadium capacity of > 30,000 (increasing now to > 40,000), the percentage of the stadium that the undergrad student body could possibly fill is smaller than just about every other university in the conference (full disclosure: I did not fact check this statement). A quick Wikipedia of BC says 9,200 undergrads and 44,500 capacity stadium, which is still larger by percentage than us - and the campus is in Boston where presumably they have a large alumni base.

It's an uphill battle to get the undergrad student body to be "a large part of football" at Duke by this simple math alone. I think Cut would be happy if the students were "a part", if for no other reason than being a "large part" is a lot to ask percentage-wise.

We will never be Florida State. Which is why I like to think Cut and the team always say, "We are Duke." Let's run our own race.

- Chillin

[jafarr1]

Wake Forest would be a better example than Boston College. Wake has a similar enrollment to Duke's.

[flyingdutchdevil]

What I would love to see is something akin to a hayward field out at U of Oregon....character, intimacy, recognition. Something that recognizes the historical significance the Duke track has provided over the years (namely the international track meets). I think the football stadium will be fine regardless of what happens. It'll be fun to be around the triangle as these changes happen

Somebody wanna contact the kin of Adi Dassler, Rudolf Dassler, or JW Foster for the funds to create a field that can compare with U of Oregon? It would be sweet if we had the funding, but we may have to be a little more realistic. The law of economics states that there are only a finite amount of resources out there. And, more unfortunately, we don't have many billionaire entrepreneurs who are willing to drop a few hundred million on us.

[Indoor66]

Somebody wanna contact the kin of Adi Dassler, Rudolf Dassler, or JW Foster for the funds to create a field that can compare with U of Oregon? It would be sweet if we had the funding, but we may have to be a little more realistic. The law of economics states that there are only a finite amount of resources out there. And, more unfortunately, we don't have many billionaire entrepreneurs who are willing to drop a few hundred million on us.

Would we have to put all that crap on the field like they have at the Oregon BB court?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Would we have to put all that crap on the field like they have at the Oregon BB court?

Well, with an infinite supply of funds, we could hire the grounds keeper at Versailles or Windsor Castle. We could have pretty, manicured hedges as the out of bounds lines.

[Greg_Newton]

Per a respected poster on another board, the plan is for the field-lowering to be completed in time for the 2014 season, pending fundraising going as expected. That would be very awesome.

The only thing I don't love about the new plan is that it will still be a very gradually-sloping bowl, but I guess there's nothing we can do about that. Everything looks terrific otherwise.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I am strongly in what seems to be the camp of holding off on closing the bowl until there is demand - an even more empty stadium is depressing, and I always kind of enjoyed the view of the trees changing color in the end zone. As discussed above, the athletic department needs to figure out how to fill the seats. The student body will only make a small dent, there are not many alums who live in the area, and there are two other major universities a short ride away that siphon off a lot of fans and interest. I am very curious to know who (if anyone) fills the empty seats at Wake games - they are in a very similar situation, with an even smaller student body, though they do not have competing schools in quite as close proximity.

Regarding baseball, I am not nearly as in the loop, but the school needs to decide whether to go all-in on Jack Coombs, or have the team try to replicate a pro experience and play downtown at the Bulls stadium. I can see how the pro experience is good for recruiting, but it eliminates a lot of student fans at the games (though some would argue there weren't many students at the games when they were at Jack Coombs). I used to love stopping by for at least a few innings when it was just a short walk away, and one would think the players enjoy having their friends at games.

[kingboozer]

I LOVE the concepts for the improvements at Wallace Wade, I think it'll be great for recruiting and for our perception as a serious college football program. I think that Duke isn't taking full advantage of the employee base they have and think they would be the easiest way to start getting people in the stadium on a consistent basis. They do a great job with discounting season tickets and the free game at the beginning of the year, but they need to go a step further. Maybe add an additional free ticket game every season, drastically discount individual game tickets to encourage more staff members to come to games and advertise more all over campus and the medical center. Just thoughts I had, maybe others on here have more or better ones. Of course, this plan for employees could be changed over time and as it is needed, but in the delicate state that our extended fan base is in, I think it would be beneficial to kiss employee rear end for a while. I truly believe a fan base is there, it just hasn't been tapped. Just look at how many show up to the employee game every year, we can get them involved if we can get them to more games!

[Son of Jarhead]

I am strongly in what seems to be the camp of holding off on closing the bowl until there is demand - an even more empty stadium is depressing, and I always kind of enjoyed the view of the trees changing color in the end zone. As discussed above, the athletic department needs to figure out how to fill the seats. The student body will only make a small dent, there are not many alums who live in the area, and there are two other major universities a short ride away that siphon off a lot of fans and interest. I am very curious to know who (if anyone) fills the empty seats at Wake games - they are in a very similar situation, with an even smaller student body, though they do not have competing schools in quite as close proximity.

Regarding baseball, I am not nearly as in the loop, but the school needs to decide whether to go all-in on Jack Coombs, or have the team try to replicate a pro experience and play downtown at the Bulls stadium. I can see how the pro experience is good for recruiting, but it eliminates a lot of student fans at the games (though some would argue there weren't many students at the games when they were at Jack Coombs). I used to love stopping by for at least a few innings when it was just a short walk away, and one would think the players enjoy having their friends at games.

They did say that closing in the bowl would be the very last thing they would do. My guess is that they are planning for the other renovation stuff, plus an improved program under Coach Cut, to increase fan support to the point they need the extra seating. Plans can change as needed. I doubt they would spend the money to enclose it if we are still averaging in the 25k range for attendance. Until this new plan was announced a few days ago, they still had a link on the football section of GoDuke.com to the plans from a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe4LBdTmvcg&feature=player_embedded ...there are many changes between this old one and the new one.

Personally, because of my away-side seating location, I was secretly hoping the tower (press box) would be really tall and wide, so it could block the afternoon sun that blinds (and burns) me every year. I really like the plans, and I can't wait to enjoy the upgrades on game days, but I do worry about parking. Also, knowing several people who work concessions, I know they are looking forward to getting new digs.

On the Cameron stuff, I didn't see any mention of a new TV broadcast booth (on the same end as this new lobby/bunker suites/restrooms/club lounge/legacy room) that was announced a couple seasons ago. I seem to recall it was to be on that end, above the upper level where there are just a few windows and blank wall now, but it wouldn't be unheard of for my recollection to be off. I remember something about Bob Harris saying that he was not going to get a new space and would still have to climb to the crow's nest. Any body else remember?

Regarding baseball, the turf field was put in in 2010. Tom D'armi passed away that July and after his memorial service in the K Center, we all walked over to Jack Combs. At that time the field was torn up and just days from the turf being installed. They do need to upgrade Jack Combs, not to add seats or anything, just improve the amenities and freshen the appearance.

[devilirium]

Upgrade it or do away with baseball ? We haven't been part of the CWS since the early 60's. We could use the parking space. In truth, I hope that the new guy does well. Unlike McNally, he actually possesses college baseball experience prior to Duke.

[loran16]

Grad students have a lottery to get tix.

Only for bball I believe

[formerdukeathlete]

They did say that closing in the bowl would be the very last thing they would do. My guess is that they are planning for the other renovation stuff, plus an improved program under Coach Cut, to increase fan support to the point they need the extra seating. Plans can change as needed. I doubt they would spend the money to enclose it if we are still averaging in the 25k range for attendance. Until this new plan was announced a few days ago, they still had a link on the football section of GoDuke.com to the plans from a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe4LBdTmvcg&feature=player_embedded ...there are many changes between this old one and the new one.
Personally, because of my away-side seating location, I was secretly hoping the tower (press box) would be really tall and wide, so it could block the afternoon sun that blinds (and burns) me every year. I really like the plans, and I can't wait to enjoy the upgrades on game days, but I do worry about parking. Also, knowing several people who work concessions, I know they are looking forward to getting new digs.

On the Cameron stuff, I didn't see any mention of a new TV broadcast booth (on the same end as this new lobby/bunker suites/restrooms/club lounge/legacy room) that was announced a couple seasons ago. I seem to recall it was to be on that end, above the upper level where there are just a few windows and blank wall now, but it wouldn't be unheard of for my recollection to be off. I remember something about Bob Harris saying that he was not going to get a new space and would still have to climb to the crow's nest. Any body else remember?

Regarding baseball, the turf field was put in in 2010. Tom D'armi passed away that July and after his memorial service in the K Center, we all walked over to Jack Combs. At that time the field was torn up and just days from the turf being installed. They do need to upgrade Jack Combs, not to add seats or anything, just improve the amenities and freshen the appearance.

At the end of the RATIO bit on Wade, they had an invite, 'for more on RATIO's athletics faciliites expertise, contact.....' I doubt the Duke proposal did much for RATIO in landing more work for the firm in the athletics facility / stadium renovation area. I did not think much of their proposal at the time. We did build new restrooms and concessions where indicated, per the RATIO plans. Thankfully, we had a change in our Athletics administration before more of the plan could be implemented.

RATIO's plan was based on Alleva's premise that we did not need more seats for Football, and that cosmetic improvements such as adding stone here and there around the concourse were going to be effective in improving the stadium, helping attendance and recruiting. Much of the expenditures likely would not have translated into improved revenues for Football. Seats added around the field under RATIO were equal to seats lost through handicap accessibility. Quite frankly, Duke would continue to bear the brunt of jokes about its Football stadium after spending upwards of $100 million (apparently) on the renovation.

The first Bostock renderings carried over RATIO's approach when adding seats around the field (roughly 3000) and then employed an upper deck on the President's box side as well as a taller section when closing in the endzone - in order to arrive at 44k seating capacity.

There were a couple of problems with this. Firstly, the stadium more naturally should be finished out in a bowl. Bostock's first renderings did not do this; they distorted a bit what would appear to be a more natural evolution of the stadium. Secondly, 6k in seating could be added when lowering the field, quite easily. RATIO, which had as their marching orders from Alleva, 'we dont need more seats', moved the field as far as it could go toward the closed end of the stadium (which limited what else they could do) and then installed bleachers which provided 3k in seating (pretty much the maximum after moving the field so far over). On the other hand, when Wisconsin, Ohio State and a number of other schools lowered their fields, they did so with the goal of increasing seating capacity, as well as bringing fans closer to the action (making the venues more intimate). There is an added benefit in following the lead of other schools making similar renovations in the past. The stadium looks more impressive, is louder, and looks pretty much like they were built this way in the first place. Carrying over what RATIO / Alleva planned for seating around the field had distorted the project.

The final renderings for the Wade renovation provide a much cleaner finished product, truer to the original structure and perhaps truer to the original planners of Wade who may have contemplated enclosing the bowl at some point at such time as the track were no longer necessary. By adding more seats when lowering the field (centered as it is lowered), the upper deck on the President's box side is not necessary, nor is it necessary that closing in the open end need entirely obscure views of Duke Forest and other training facilities. They are much better than the first renderings under Bostock and much, much better than the RATIO plans.

And, while we do not want to get too crazy here, by not needing to build an upper deck on the President's box side, this leaves open the possibility that another building could be built there in future, or that an upper deck might be built at some point increasing seating capacity above 44k.