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gumbomoop
08-14-2012, 01:01 PM
K’s glowing comments re Lebron [“… he's the best leader, he's as smart as anyone playing the game right now"] have led me to think again about what attributes make basketball players great, or even very good. Also what makes them fall short.

I’m inclined to divide these attributes into two broad categories: physical skills and intuitive skills.
………………………………..

I’m more interested in the latter, but let me comment first on physical skills, in order to emphasize what seems to me an undervalued skill. The default question - “Can he shoot, pass, rebound, play D?” - focuses on physical skills. Maybe the default question often also includes “How good is his handle?” I hope so, as for my money, handle is the single most valuable physical skill, especially for perimeter players, but increasingly for all but back-to-basket 5s.

Far too infrequently, IMO, a player’s footwork is an afterthought. I think of footwork as a good example of an underappreciated physical skill that depends, too, on something intuitive, but I’m unsure what that intuitive thing is, exactly. It has something to do with hand/eye/foot coordination, right? Help.

Casey Sanders needed help, big time, with his footwork. I realize it was his bad hands that garnered lots of commentary, but I always thought it was his feet that messed him up. Or rather, the disconnect between his brain and his feet, for when he received the ball, he rarely knew which was his pivot foot. This led him into a myriad of pretzel-poses, and falling down.

Mason Plumlee has worked on his footwork, and has needed to. As with Casey, Mason is a graceful guy when running down the court. As long as he avoids traffic, his athleticism is marvelous, so marvelous that Jay Bilas marveled a lot during Mason’s first two seasons. But gradually Jay toned it down re Mason, for sensible reasons. Mason’s play, in actual games, has best been [or at least in a single post last year was] described by none other than Wheat, who described Mason’s play as “bulky.” I was struck by that insight, for it captured the surprising lack of fluidity in the game of an athlete who at times looked like he should have been so smooth. [Another one of you posted a fine analysis of Mason-in-trouble-in-traffic -- maybe you remember who you are, and would be willing to repeat your solid analysis of Mason’s footwork-woes when in traffic.]

Speaking of smooth, let me use Harrison Barnes’s physical skills to segue to intuitive skills. Barnes is a fine player with a sweet jumper. He possesses plenty of physical skills, but at the college level his anticipated greatness did not materialize, despite plenty of good performances. How come?

Barnes lacked some important intuitive skills. It’s hard for me to tell whether Barnes did not sufficiently develop the intuitive skills of court-sense and decision-making because he simply wasn’t asked or required to do so at UNC. Discounting the Drew-interlude, once Marshall took over, he, well, took over. He showed lots of court-sense and decision-making, mostly associate with his wonderful passing. But in any case, he had the ball in his hands a whole lot. He got the ball to Henson and Zeller in good shape, time after time. Got it to Barnes, too, for great jumpers. But Barnes kind of became a cog in a well-oiled O-machine, rather than a go-to guy, which, on a few occasions, clearly irritated him.

Barnes also lacked what I think of [comparable to the importance of handle as a physical skill] as the single most important intuitive attribute: relentlessness. Relentless: think Moses Malone, Jordan, West, Robertson, Bird, Magic, Kobe, and now, I guess, LeBron. At the college level, think Thomas Robinson, Antawn Jamison, Kidd-Gilchrist, Shane, Jon Scheyer, Hansbrough.

Also think Aaron Craft. And contrast him to Barnes. I wondered on another thread how come the gurus missed on Craft, and have tentatively concluded that his unimpressive physical skills led gurus to miss his outstanding intuitive skills: his relentlessness most of all, but also his court savvy, decision-making on both O and D, active hands and footwork. [In fact, it’s Craft’s superb footwork that leads me to think footwork (and possibly other physical skills) isn’t (/aren’t) purely physical. Still, it seems odd to talk about court-sense as a physical skill, so I’ll stick with the distinction until corrected by friendly and unfriendly amendments.]

Anyhow, Craft isn’t particularly “noticeable” as a “talent.” From the same HS class, 2010, as Barnes, Craft arrived at OSU with somewhat fewer expectations than Barnes was being saddled with. But Craft became a great college player, and Barnes didn’t. Why? As noted above, maybe, and ironically, Barnes was simply overshadowed by the presence of a great, great passer, whose great passes made Zeller and Henson potent O-weapons, thus depriving Barnes of a few opportunities per game.

But IMO what held Barnes back, and what makes Craft so good, are intuitive skills, and especially relentlessness. There’s more important irony here, both because Craft doesn’t at first “look” relentless; and especially because Barnes did, and intended to, “look” relentless. Roy Williams observed something to the effect that “Harrison Barnes is the most driven player I’ve ever coached.” But Roy misjudged Barnes’s “driven-ness,” for it wasn’t “natural”; it wasn’t intuitive. It was faux-cerebral, calculated, part of Barnes’s fascinating plan to become a brand. Barnes was less driven, less relentless, than he wanted to be seen as being. I mean all this not as a commentary on Barnes’s shallowness, but as a matter-of-fact observation on the artifice rather than intuitiveness of Barnes’s approach to the game. Roy’s observation is what Barnes wanted to be observed, and it’s undoubtedly how Barnes saw himself; he fooled himself as much as he fooled others. Barnes’s relentlessness was a shadow of the real thing, the outer shell, the husk, of the actual, substantive thing. [There’s probably a “fairer” way of putting all this, one that employs both softer and more accurate words to describe ….. what I’m trying to describe…. Again, help.]

Maybe Barnes will become the relentless player that his intensely-cool, hyper-focused demeanor portends. But for actual, substantive, effective relentlessness, watch Aaron Craft. His physical strength doesn’t seem to match his rosy cheeks. [Maybe that’s why the gurus missed on Craft.] But his court-sense, decision-making, footwork and quick hands on D are all remarkable. He thinks about angles, about absorbing elbows and hips from high-screens, about the rhythm of the opposing guard’s dribble, about whether he can risk doubling-down and still get back if the pass comes back out top. He seems driven by the smallest of details. Like Shane.

Craft is “as smart as anyone playing the [college] game right now."

Bluedog
08-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Nice post and good analysis. I definitely think of Scheyer when it comes to intuitive play - I think Seth can also be really crafty and smart, and am expecting big things from him this season. I'm certainly no Barnes apologist and love me some piling on, but I think people on this board short-change his career. Was Barnes a transcendent player? No. Was he a really good college player? Yes.


But Craft became a great college player, and Barnes didn’t. Why? As noted above, maybe, and ironically, Barnes was simply overshadowed by the presence of a great, great passer, whose great passes made Zeller and Henson potent O-weapons, thus depriving Barnes of a few opportunities per game.

Numbers from 2011-12:


Player MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
Barnes 28.8 .450 .382 .728 5.2 1.0 1.1 0.4 17.3
Craft 32.2 .500 .359 .713 3.2 4.6 2.5 0.2 8.8


I realize they play different positions so comparisons like this aren't necessarily apples-to-apples, but Barnes averaged more points, rebounds, and blocks, while playing fewer minutes and shooting a higher percentage from three and the line. One could certainly argue that Craft is a better college player than Barnes, but to unequivocally say Craft is a great player and Barnes isn't seems a bit specious. Barnes also certainly did not have only a few opportunities per game - he had the most FG attempts on his team. As a comparison, in Singler's senior season, he averaged 16.9 ppg in 34.8 minutes, shooting 43% from the field and 32% from three point land. Again, I'm not Barnes' fan, but I can at least appreciate that he was a very solid player on the court.

gumbomoop
08-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Was Barnes a transcendent player? No. Was he a really good college player? Yes.

One could certainly argue that Craft is a better college player than Barnes, but to unequivocally say Craft is a great player and Barnes isn't seems a bit specious.... [Barnes] was a very solid player on the court.

I agree with most of these points. I don't agree that it's specious to say Barnes was not a great college player. He was very good, very solid, as you say.

It's a tougher sell, for sure, to claim Craft is a great player. I do claim he has been an unusually effective player, because of the many little - intuitive, I think - things he does every minute on the court [at least the dozen or so times I've seen him]. He made the Big 10 all-D team his frosh year and was named DPOY this past season.

I used Craft because he's the current college player who best exemplifies my take on intuitive skills, and especially relentlessness. It strikes me that it's his intuitive understanding of the game that enhances his physical attributes beyond what one sees - and, as best I can only guess, the gurus didn't see, or didn't value. Craft did not make the RSCI composite top 100 HS players the year Barnes was #1.

I used Barnes because I'm fascinated by his story, his self-presentation, and the perception of him as "driven." His play, unlike that of Craft, cannot be said to have been relentless. As I noted in my post, it's possible, if ironic, that the particular mix of excellent players at UNC hindered his play, by which I refer to the heights of excellence his physical skills and putative "drive" should have produced. It's also possible that that all-important physical skill - handle - held him back, keeping him in the very solid category.

One could say, well, the gurus just flat missed on Craft. And they and media folks unfortunately over-hyped Barnes, unfair to the young man, etc. But I'm more interested in the distinction and/or connections between physical and intuitive skills than I am in either Craft or Barnes. It seems helpful to discuss said skills by using examples, so maybe someone else can provide better examples.

CDu
08-14-2012, 03:53 PM
One could say, well, the gurus just flat missed on Craft. And they and media folks unfortunately over-hyped Barnes, unfair to the young man, etc. But I'm more interested in the distinction and/or connections between physical and intuitive skills than I am in either Craft or Barnes. It seems helpful to discuss said skills by using examples, so maybe someone else can provide better examples.

I would definitely say that the gurus just flat out missed on Craft. And they certainly overhyped Barnes. This often happens (they did a similar thing to Rivers this past year to some degree). I would say that you're understating Craft's physical gifts just a bit though. He is very quick and VERY strong (two excellent traits for a defender), and has excellent handle (obviously valuable for a PG). He does also possess an effort quality that perhaps gets undervalued. But he certainly wasn't lacking in physical skills. The only things he lacked physically were transcendent shooting ability or great leaping ability.

Beyond that, I agree with the larger premise that (a) physical skills should not exclude ballhandling and footwork, and (b) intuitive skills are often undervalued (or just misevaluated) by the gurus.

gumbomoop
08-14-2012, 04:26 PM
I would definitely say that the gurus just flat out missed on Craft. And they certainly overhyped Barnes. This often happens (they did a similar thing to Rivers this past year to some degree). I would say that you're understating Craft's physical gifts just a bit though. He is very quick and VERY strong (two excellent traits for a defender), and has excellent handle (obviously valuable for a PG). He does also possess an effort quality that perhaps gets undervalued. But he certainly wasn't lacking in physical skills. The only things he lacked physically were transcendent shooting ability or great leaping ability.

Yes, you're right about Craft's considerable physical skills, making the guru-goof all the more puzzling. Way back someone on EK posted that Craft's defensive prowess was well-known on the AAU circuit. Yet he couldn't crack the top-100.

Either the gurus thought him an absolutely atrocious shooter, or, except for shot-blocking [see Nerlens Noel], just don't count D-skills for much. It would be one thing to miss on a guy who "comes out of nowhere," but Craft wasn't unknown, as he played with Sullinger on a strong AAU team for several years.

cf-62
08-14-2012, 04:47 PM
Craft is “as smart as anyone playing the [college] game right now."

To me, Craft is as GOOD as anyone playing the college game right now. If you see an Ohio State game on TV, spend a few possessions watching Aaron, regardless of where the ball is. Like Shane, you could essentially show tape of Craft on defense and say "THAT'S what I'm talking about when I talk about team defense - guarding your man PLUS being in a position to take away other offensive options for the opponent."

It really is a joy (as somebody that has to rely on defensive prowess to make a difference in a game). He not only shuts down his man, but disrupts so much of the offense, even when he's not even directly involved.

I wish we had grabbed him, though if I had to pick Kyrie over him, so be it.

hughgs
08-14-2012, 09:25 PM
K’s glowing comments re Lebron [“… he's the best leader, he's as smart as anyone playing the game right now"] have led me to think again about what attributes make basketball players great, or even very good. Also what makes them fall short.

I’m inclined to divide these attributes into two broad categories: physical skills and intuitive skills.
………………………………..

I’m more interested in the latter, but let me comment first on physical skills, in order to emphasize what seems to me an undervalued skill. The default question - “Can he shoot, pass, rebound, play D?” - focuses on physical skills. Maybe the default question often also includes “How good is his handle?” I hope so, as for my money, handle is the single most valuable physical skill, especially for perimeter players, but increasingly for all but back-to-basket 5s.

Far too infrequently, IMO, a player’s footwork is an afterthought. I think of footwork as a good example of an underappreciated physical skill that depends, too, on something intuitive, but I’m unsure what that intuitive thing is, exactly. It has something to do with hand/eye/foot coordination, right? Help.

Speaking to the physical skills, I've been telling my son that everything starts with footwork. If the footwork is wrong then the rest of the skills are much harder. As a friend said, you can't build a house without a foundation and footwork is the foundation.

My background is in judo and volleyball. In judo it's quite important to be able to recognize which way your opponents weight is shifted. But you can't take advantage of that recognition if your footwork is wrong. The same with volleyball. The placement of your feet is important in setting and passing. The movement of your feet during your approach is critical in hitting.

Although it's not everything footwork is the most important thing.

Biscuitboy
08-15-2012, 02:22 AM
I agree with most of these points. I don't agree that it's specious to say Barnes was not a great college player. He was very good, very solid, as you say.

It's a tougher sell, for sure, to claim Craft is a great player. I do claim he has been an unusually effective player, because of the many little - intuitive, I think - things he does every minute on the court [at least the dozen or so times I've seen him]. He made the Big 10 all-D team his frosh year and was named DPOY this past season.

I used Craft because he's the current college player who best exemplifies my take on intuitive skills, and especially relentlessness. It strikes me that it's his intuitive understanding of the game that enhances his physical attributes beyond what one sees - and, as best I can only guess, the gurus didn't see, or didn't value. Craft did not make the RSCI composite top 100 HS players the year Barnes was #1.

I used Barnes because I'm fascinated by his story, his self-presentation, and the perception of him as "driven." His play, unlike that of Craft, cannot be said to have been relentless. As I noted in my post, it's possible, if ironic, that the particular mix of excellent players at UNC hindered his play, by which I refer to the heights of excellence his physical skills and putative "drive" should have produced. It's also possible that that all-important physical skill - handle - held him back, keeping him in the very solid category.


Harrison Barnes has skills. We would have loved for him to play for Duke. Silky on the perimiter. A knock down shot most of the time. Hunger? Relentlessness? No. I don't know much about Aaron Craft. I do appreciate the point being raised. There are so many gifted atheletes in college basketball. Where I live now, Tony Wroten and Terrence Ross come to mind. For Duke, we have an embarrasment of riches. Mason is atheletically gifted. I want him to be a relentless offensive AND defensive presence. Ryan Kelly is gifted. If I could impose a relentless mentality on anyone it would be Ryan. Singler and Laettner were relentless. Put that drive and competitiveness into Ryan Kelly's skill set and he delivers points, rebounds, assists, and blocks. Seth Curry. He has demonstrated he can score. He has demonstrated that he has a feel for the flow of a game and is willing to surrender his stake and claim for the benifit of the team. Seth's leadership will be crucial this year. Not so much through stats, but through his presence on the floor expressing K's purpose for the team this year. Whether it's Quinn evolving into a first rate classic point guard on both ends of the ball or 'Sheed staking out his own unique place within the flow of a game, I believe Seth can be that voice and presence on the floor. His leadership and generosity will be paid back in spades.
Last season, our leaders on the floor did not enhance overall team chemistry. They delivered independently, and that did not translate into victories late. Curry and Kelly's leadership can catapult us beyond what we achieved last year. K's olympic success this year speaks to players buying in and trusting that their opportunities will arrive. That's a team.

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-15-2012, 07:34 AM
Here's the other thing about intuitive skills that we're not yet discussing... the ability to "share" that intuition with others. Or said differently, the ability to make other players better and improve the team's overall intuition. KI breaking down a defense and throwing a nice little lob for a dunk is probably more physical skill than intuition for both him and the player receiving the lob. But they still have to be "in tune." Still, I'm thinking a little more broadly (and this probably gets at leadership skills, too) but I think about guys like KI, Craft, JWill, Hurley, Corchiani, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, John Stockton, Magic, etc., etc., as PGs who play(ed) with a level of intuition that is infectious for the players around them. They make everyone better. Certainly there are examples at all the other positions. I just use PGs as an easy starting point. Nolan, Scheyer, Lebron, Battier, and on and on. Anyway, I am most intrigued when a player's natural intuition is combined with leadership skills to create something special for an entire team.

COYS
08-15-2012, 10:18 AM
I think this is a very interesting thread. I'd like to posit something as a possible prerequisite for relentlessness and that is fully developed sense of self (in a basketball sense). Jon Scheyer developed into a relentless player because he had (has) a rare grasp of exactly who he is and what he is capable of. He never let go of this sense of self and therefore was able to relentless work the game to put himself in the best possible positions on every single possession. Obviously, Shane has the same ability, as his fascinating NYT interview clearly demonstrates. In my opinion, what has enabled Lebron to become relentless on the court is his understanding of his game. He now looks at the three pointer as option C (or even Option D) behind option A and B (which are attack the basket to create for others or attack the basket to score . . . and possibly even Option C: post up for a short turnaround jumper or post move). The long 2 point jumper was almost nonexistent in his game in London because he recognized it as the worst part of his game. He made similar commitments to stick to his strengths in the Finals.

Interestingly, I felt like Carmelo Anthony was similarly committed to relentlessness in London that he does not translate to his NBA game. In London, he recognized that slow-developing one on one isolations were going to be few and far between for him AND that they would not add anything at all to the offense. He realized that by relentlessly moving without the ball he could put himself in positions for quick scores off of open threes or nifty cuts to the basket. Occasionally he attempted a shot-fake followed by a one or two dribble move, but otherwise he almost never resorted to the one-on-one play that is his signature in the NBA. Melo has a different sense of self in international competition than he does playing in the NBA.

To bring this back to Duke, if anything was absent from last year's team, it was that I don't feel like any of the players had a fully developed sense of self on the court, which made it hard for them to develop a sense of what the team should be. This is not a knock on our guys, as I think very few players ever reach a Scheyer or Shane level of perspective. However, I feel that with yet another year of experience under their belts, our three seniors will be starting from a much stronger position this year and will be much further down the road to being completely comfortable with themselves on the court. I think this will help them to become more relentless in exploiting the team's strengths and minimizing the team's weaknesses on every possession.

greybeard
08-19-2012, 06:36 PM
Feet and hands are connected to the body and the head; they are of one piece.

If you move your feet such that it takes you out of your base of support, you need to recover before you can move and/or you seriously lose your balance. If your chest, ribs, shoulders, belly, neck and jaw are taught, your hands will be...? What is taught?

Court smarts, basketball IQ--depends what you look for and how broad your zone of awareness is. Einstein said that he did not use "words" when he did his theoretical thinking. If you didn't repeat each word as you read, how fast could you read and would your comprehension increase or decrease? Did Byrd and Magic think in words (were they reading player location, ball location, what skills each person had, what the score was, what the skills and procivities each person had, how deep into the clock shot they were) or did they see an ever-changing intergrated whole with themselves and "the game" changing with it?

Do the string members of a Chamber group who do one of those minute long sprints of the bow back and forth while looking at the score count stroke numbers in their heads, or do they count at all? How do they end at the same time? I asked a viola player friend of my wife's, at the end of a concert, how he could count so fast when doing one of those staccatos (spelling, oy.) "I don't," Miles replied, with a wry smile on his face. I then asked, how do you guys all stop at the same time? The smile got wryer (a word), "We don't."

I do not think he was playing with me.