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View Full Version : Was K's Legacy on the line yesterday in Team USA's Gold Medal game?



ohiodukefan
08-13-2012, 11:19 AM
You know the Duke haters were out there hoping Spain would pull the upset. Then they could have said that K was the losing coach in the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history (LeHigh) and the head coach in the greatest upset in Olympic history...............in the SAME year!! Thank gawd LeBron, Durant. Kobe and Paul kept that from happening!!!

OldPhiKap
08-13-2012, 11:34 AM
I don't think his rep was "on the line" although a loss would give the haters something to talk about.

Let the hater's hate. Go Duke!

elvis14
08-13-2012, 11:34 AM
You know the Duke haters were out there hoping Spain would pull the upset. Then they could have said that K was the losing coach in the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history (LeHigh) and the head coach in the greatest upset in Olympic history...............in the SAME year!! Thank gawd LeBron, Durant. Kobe and Paul kept that from happening!!!

The simple answer is yes, his legacy was on the line yesterday. Had we lost, he would have gotten a lot of criticism. Because he won, his legacy has a great coach and a winner at the highest level has been further secured.

DUKIE V(A)
08-13-2012, 12:08 PM
You know the Duke haters were out there hoping Spain would pull the upset. Then they could have said that K was the losing coach in the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history (LeHigh) and the head coach in the greatest upset in Olympic history...............in the SAME year!! Thank gawd LeBron, Durant. Kobe and Paul kept that from happening!!!

Win or lose Coach K's legacy as a great coach would have been in tact. That said, with yesterday's win, I would argue that Coach K belongs on the Mount Rushmore of Coaches in American sports history.

Among his MANY accomplishments:

2 Golds as Olympic Head Coach
2 Golds as Olympic Assistant Coach
1 Gold as FIBA World Championships Head Coach
4 NCAA National Titles
All Time Winningest Coach in NCAA Division 1 History

And he has done it all with extreme integrity, class, and loyalty.

sagegrouse
08-13-2012, 12:24 PM
The simple answer is yes, his legacy was on the line yesterday. Had we lost, he would have gotten a lot of criticism. Because he won, his legacy has a great coach and a winner at the highest level has been further secured.

Yep. Yesterday was a "whew" moment. A loss and any future conversation about K's greatness and legacy would have to jump over that Olympics loss. I am glad we don't have to.

sagegrouse

CDu
08-13-2012, 12:27 PM
You know the Duke haters were out there hoping Spain would pull the upset. Then they could have said that K was the losing coach in the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history (LeHigh) and the head coach in the greatest upset in Olympic history...............in the SAME year!! Thank gawd LeBron, Durant. Kobe and Paul kept that from happening!!!

Only to folks who are ignorant (which admittedly includes a lot of folks), hate Duke and Coach K (see previous group), or who get paid to make up arguments. Two games do not make (or break) a legacy, contrary to what Pardon the Interruption and Around the Horn might suggest.

Duvall
08-13-2012, 12:32 PM
No. When Larry Brown's career ends, are people going to talk about the 2004 bronze medal? Krzyzewski has had too many successes over too long a time for any one basketball game to define it at this point.

Moot now though.

Kedsy
08-13-2012, 12:36 PM
You know the Duke haters were out there hoping Spain would pull the upset. Then they could have said that K was the losing coach in the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history (LeHigh) and the head coach in the greatest upset in Olympic history...............in the SAME year!! Thank gawd LeBron, Durant. Kobe and Paul kept that from happening!!!

First, I doubt too many Duke haters were rooting for Spain. Although I'm sure some thought Duke fans' discomfiture would be a good consolation if USA lost.

Second, why was the Lehigh (not LeHigh) loss worse of an upset than any of the other 15 over 2 upsets?

Olympic Fan
08-13-2012, 12:50 PM
I think K's greatest leacy as the National team coach is that his critics are once again saying "anyone could win with that group." In fact, a poster at IC (which either stands for Inside Carolina or Idiot's Central ... not sure which) posted "any high school coach in America could have won with that group."

It's amazing to me that K has restored the inevitability of USA superiority. Everyody forgets the 2002-2004 period -- pre-K -- when the USA struggled in international play. George Karl (now where did he go to school?) finished sixth in the 2002 world championships that were held on our home turf in Indianapolis. The 2004 Olympic team lost three games, managed to win the bronze and was coached by a guy named Larry Brown (now where did he go to school?).

When a reasoanbly rational poster at IC pointed that out to the "high school" guy, several posters jumped to in complain that their guys didn't have the top players ... they had to struggle with second rate guys. I mean just check out the scrubs Larry Brown had to work with in Athens -- Tim Duncan, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson (then in his prime as one of the great scorers in the NBA), Lamar Odom, Richard Jefferson, Amare Stoudamire and -- the one collegiate pick -- Emeka Okafor.

I know that a couple of those megastars were fairly young .... but what about the USA team that K led to the world championship in 2010? There was only one megastar on that team and that was before he was a megastar -- Kevin Durant was older than 2010 than Wade or Anthony in 2004 (not as young as LeBron, whio has just competed his rookie year as an all-star).

After the failure in Athens, the same commentators that are now saying anybody could have won with this USA team (which lacked the likes of Dwight Howard -- best center in the NBA -- Derrick Miles -- the best point guard in the NBA -- and NBA championship studs in Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh) were saying in 2004 that the USA couldn't compete any more against polished international teams ... and especially not one coached by a college coach.

Look at it this way -- the USA was 11-6 in the two major international tournaments before K ... in the three major events that K won as coach, the USA was 21-1 (actually he was 61-1 in all games, counting exhibitions). He made it look easy -- and now everybody THINKS it was easy.

PS No matter who the coach is in the world championships in 2014, I'll be pulling for the USA. But I have to admit that a small part of me will be hoping to see them fail to validate the amazing job Coach K did as the national team coach.

Kedsy
08-13-2012, 12:56 PM
-- Derrick Miles -- the best point guard in the NBA --

You mean Derrick Rose, right?

flyingdutchdevil
08-13-2012, 01:31 PM
IMO, Coach K's legacy was never on the line with these Olympics. As a matter of fact, I think that Coach K's legacy has very, very little to do with Team USA. However, I do feel that, had they lost, Coach K's 2008 win - and all the positives taken from that experience - would have been negated by the loss this year. Coach K, as a college coach and sports figure, cannot have his legacy uprooted by a loss in the Olympics.

Also, it's important to remember that Team USA is expected to win the Olympics ever time, and with right reason. They simply are the best team in the world by leaps and bounds, and takes a smart leader with great management skills to put them in the right direction (like Coach K! I wonder why they recruited him for this role...). Team USA's odds of winning this - from a Vegas standpoint - were insane. Because of this, a loss would be detrimental to Team USA basketball and all involved. Coach K would loss credibility on the national front but not on the college front, where his legacy primarily lies.

I think a decent analogy is Alex Ferguson, current coach of Manchester United. He is seen as one of the best football coaches of all time. Yet, many did not know that he coached Scotland right before ManU in 1985. And he failed miserably (winning 30% of the games but, given that Scotland isn't a powerhouse, this isn't surprising). No one, and I mean no one, brings up Alex Ferguson's failures on the national side. They dwell on his performance at ManU, which is stellar to say the least. 50 years from now, when I'm still talking about Coach K, I probably won't bring up the Olympics. I'll bring up the 4+ NCs, the 11+ FFs, the countless ACC reg. season and tournament wins, and the all the fabulous players that came through (with Nolan as my first mention).

jimsumner
08-13-2012, 01:43 PM
You mean Derrick Rose, right?

Just goes to show how under-rated Derrick Miles is. :)

OldPhiKap
08-13-2012, 01:49 PM
No. When Larry Brown's career ends, are people going to talk about the 2004 bronze medal?

I usually bring that up right after discussing his cheap shot to Art Heyman.

But I don't hold a grudge or anything.

elvis14
08-13-2012, 02:23 PM
You mean Derrick Rose, right?

I think he completely misspelled Kyrie Irving!

Olympic Fan
08-13-2012, 02:37 PM
You mean Derrick Rose, right?

Brain fart -- it was Rose.

Before his injury, he WAS acknowledged as the best PG in the NBA.

But Irving is coming ..

(BTW: I also got K's record in championship events wrong ... it's 24-1, not 21-1. He IS 61-1 in all games with Team USA).

And I also think that when you talk about the greatest coach of all times, people will say Wooden's 10 championships>K's four championships. In NCAA terms, yes ...

But when you add the two Olympic titles and the World Championship that K won, it becomes 10>7 ... and that's getting close enough that we can start arguing about the increased difficulty to win championships in the 64-team era with the balanced NCAA field (which Wooden never had to deal with).

... and, of course, you also have to factor in Sam Gilbert's role in Wooden's success. I'm just saying that I've always deferred to Wooden as the Greatest College Coach of All Time ... I'm getting closer and closer to evavating K to the top IMHO.

BD80
08-13-2012, 03:41 PM
You mean Derrick Rose, right?

A rose by any other name?

COYS
08-13-2012, 04:22 PM
Brain fart -- it was Rose.

Before his injury, he WAS acknowledged as the best PG in the NBA.

But Irving is coming ..

(BTW: I also got K's record in championship events wrong ... it's 24-1, not 21-1. He IS 61-1 in all games with Team USA).

And I also think that when you talk about the greatest coach of all times, people will say Wooden's 10 championships>K's four championships. In NCAA terms, yes ...

But when you add the two Olympic titles and the World Championship that K won, it becomes 10>7 ... and that's getting close enough that we can start arguing about the increased difficulty to win championships in the 64-team era with the balanced NCAA field (which Wooden never had to deal with).

... and, of course, you also have to factor in Sam Gilbert's role in Wooden's success. I'm just saying that I've always deferred to Wooden as the Greatest College Coach of All Time ... I'm getting closer and closer to evavating K to the top IMHO.

Oly, I agree with everything you said, except for the fact that Rose was acknowledged as the best PG in the NBA. He is very good, but he's still not a great defender nor does he have the distribution skills of Chris Paul. In virtually every advanced metric, Paul is clearly a better PG with a longer track record or elite play. He got an MVP in a year when he almost certainly was not the best player in the league. Rose is good, but I don't think he has made it to the pinnacle of the PG position in the pros.

That being said, every thing you say about comparing K and Wooden. K's accomplishments are adding up, quickly. Personally, I think K needs another Natty in college (or maybe two or three :p just for dreaming's sake) before the debate gets really, really interesting.

JTH
08-13-2012, 04:58 PM
First, I doubt too many Duke haters were rooting for Spain. Although I'm sure some thought Duke fans' discomfiture would be a good consolation if USA lost.

Second, why was the Lehigh (not LeHigh) loss worse of an upset than any of the other 15 over 2 upsets?

Sadly, if Charlotte is any indicator, I would have to say the number of haters pulling against the US was pretty large. Even the staff on the local sports radio here were about 50-50 on pulling for or against the US. But, they tend to pander to the tar heel nation and they were echoing about the same split from their callers. Of course now this team was invincible and they should have won by more. Maybe they can bring back old Larry Brown to get things back on track.:rolleyes:

MChambers
08-13-2012, 05:00 PM
I think K's greatest leacy as the National team coach is that his critics are once again saying "anyone could win with that group." In fact, a poster at IC (which either stands for Inside Carolina or Idiot's Central ... not sure which) posted "any high school coach in America could have won with that group."

It's amazing to me that K has restored the inevitability of USA superiority. Everyody forgets the 2002-2004 period -- pre-K -- when the USA struggled in international play. George Karl (now where did he go to school?) finished sixth in the 2002 world championships that were held on our home turf in Indianapolis. The 2004 Olympic team lost three games, managed to win the bronze and was coached by a guy named Larry Brown (now where did he go to school?).

When a reasoanbly rational poster at IC pointed that out to the "high school" guy, several posters jumped to in complain that their guys didn't have the top players ... they had to struggle with second rate guys. I mean just check out the scrubs Larry Brown had to work with in Athens -- Tim Duncan, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson (then in his prime as one of the great scorers in the NBA), Lamar Odom, Richard Jefferson, Amare Stoudamire and -- the one collegiate pick -- Emeka Okafor.

I know that a couple of those megastars were fairly young .... but what about the USA team that K led to the world championship in 2010? There was only one megastar on that team and that was before he was a megastar -- Kevin Durant was older than 2010 than Wade or Anthony in 2004 (not as young as LeBron, whio has just competed his rookie year as an all-star).

After the failure in Athens, the same commentators that are now saying anybody could have won with this USA team (which lacked the likes of Dwight Howard -- best center in the NBA -- Derrick Miles -- the best point guard in the NBA -- and NBA championship studs in Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh) were saying in 2004 that the USA couldn't compete any more against polished international teams ... and especially not one coached by a college coach.

Look at it this way -- the USA was 11-6 in the two major international tournaments before K ... in the three major events that K won as coach, the USA was 21-1 (actually he was 61-1 in all games, counting exhibitions). He made it look easy -- and now everybody THINKS it was easy.

PS No matter who the coach is in the world championships in 2014, I'll be pulling for the USA. But I have to admit that a small part of me will be hoping to see them fail to validate the amazing job Coach K did as the national team coach.

You deserve another spork for this one. Obviously, Colangelo deserves credit too, but folks really have collective amnesia on this. After 2004 and 2006, people said the USA couldn't win and that Coach K had no chance.

Coach K did an amazing job. Maybe the next coach will do as well, but the bar has been set very high.

MChambers
08-13-2012, 05:02 PM
And I also think that when you talk about the greatest coach of all times, people will say Wooden's 10 championships>K's four championships. In NCAA terms, yes ...

But when you add the two Olympic titles and the World Championship that K won, it becomes 10>7 ... and that's getting close enough that we can start arguing about the increased difficulty to win championships in the 64-team era with the balanced NCAA field (which Wooden never had to deal with).

... and, of course, you also have to factor in Sam Gilbert's role in Wooden's success. I'm just saying that I've always deferred to Wooden as the Greatest College Coach of All Time ... I'm getting closer and closer to evavating K to the top IMHO.
Even putting aside Gilbert, I'm with you, or ahead of you. Coach K has surpassed Wooden in my mind, and I never thought I'd say that.

weezie
08-13-2012, 05:41 PM
My jaw hit the floor when LeBron dumped the water on K's head.
Imagine the Duke basketball player fraternity watching and gasping.
Very cool.

Acymetric
08-13-2012, 05:59 PM
My jaw hit the floor when LeBron dumped the water on K's head.
Imagine the Duke basketball player fraternity watching and gasping.
Very cool.

That was awesome. The camera showed LeBron picking up the two water bottles and I was just like "man, guess he's really thirsty!" Then they show some other stuff going on on the court and all of the sudden you see LeBron sneaking up behind Coach K...hilarious. Me and my friends died when we saw it.

hq2
08-13-2012, 06:53 PM
Yep. Yesterday was a "whew" moment. A loss and any future conversation about K's greatness and legacy would have to jump over that Olympics loss. I am glad we don't have to.

Definitely, The Carolina folks would never have let us off on that one; they've been rooting for him to lose ever since Brown and Karl got clobbered.
K's place on the coaching Mount Rushmore is now completely secure. He's no worse than third or fourth; I still give Wooden the top spot, but
it's close between K and maybe Rupp or Hank Iba for second (and yes, Rupp was a racist, but that was typical of his era). Still, find it hard
to believe, after 25 years of excellence, that of the 300 division one coaches and programs, that ours was indeed the best. Wow. What an honor!

Wheat/"/"/"
08-13-2012, 07:56 PM
Definitely, The Carolina folks would never have let us off on that one; they've been rooting for him to lose ever since Brown and Karl got clobbered.
K's place on the coaching Mount Rushmore is now completely secure. He's no worse than third or fourth; I still give Wooden the top spot, but
it's close between K and maybe Rupp or Hank Iba for second (and yes, Rupp was a racist, but that was typical of his era). Still, find it hard
to believe, after 25 years of excellence, that of the 300 division one coaches and programs, that ours was indeed the best. Wow. What an honor!

Two good reads...


http://aol.sportingnews.com/olympics/story/2012-08-12/olympics-2012-us-spain-mike-krzyzewski-coach-k-retirement-chris-paul

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2012/08/picking_the_man_whod_lead_bask.html

Duvall
08-13-2012, 08:35 PM
Speaking of legacies, one of the pleasures of this summer has been seeing NBA writers and bloggers respond to the way the Heat, Thunder and Team USA moved LeBron and Durant around the court by talking about how the future of basketball is multidimensional players without positions. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577450500740492554.html)

hq2
08-13-2012, 08:39 PM
Great reads. It shows that K was the right man at the right place at the right time. In the end, however,
I believe that it was the humiliation of 2004 that made it possible (or necessary). I mean they didn't just lose, they got blown out, repeatedly. To experience what was supposed to be America's best getting their butts kicked by a bunch of players individually not remotely equal in talent to the American players had an absolutely incredible effect on guys like Carmelo and Lebron; it was too much for them to take. I'll never forget the words of Doug Collins watching Argentina getting the gold medals, remembering the robbery of '72, staring at our players in shame: "The worst part about it all was not hearing the national anthem be played". The players who stood on the bronze medal steps, and the rest of the NBA simply couldn't bear it. And that was why, when K came along and showed them the way to winning again on the international stage, they were willing to do it his way. And, the rest is history.

Newton_14
08-13-2012, 10:28 PM
You know the Duke haters were out there hoping Spain would pull the upset. Then they could have said that K was the losing coach in the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history (LeHigh) and the head coach in the greatest upset in Olympic history...............in the SAME year!! Thank gawd LeBron, Durant. Kobe and Paul kept that from happening!!!

Agree with Kedsy that Duke's loss to Lehigh was not the greatest upset in NCAA Tournament history. Not even close really.

I am also a bit miffed by the part I bolded in your post. You seem to be implying that Lebron, Durant, Kobe, and Paul "bailed Coach K out". I don't see it that way at all. As has been mentioned in the other thread on the Olympic win, 2002 and 2004 showed that coaching is in fact a critical element, and Coach K played a very large role in this team winning gold. Especially given the players we lost due to injury. Any other coach may well have taken lesser players just to have a "normal" amount of big men. That strategy may well have back fired and produced something less than gold. K instead, chose to take his chances with just two top level big men in Chandler and Love, and to go small with a frontline of Anthony, Lebron, and Durant.

The USA had a ton of talent even without Howard, Bosh, and Rose, and the players deserve a huge amount of props. They bought in to the system, with each playing a role that differed from their roles in the NBA. I have mad respect for all of those players for that fact alone. It took that attitude, combined with their talents, combined with the mastery that is Coach K to bring home gold.

So I thank God that all of their efforts were rewarded in the end. Coaching staff and players.