Other College Basketball coaches think Roy Williams is overrated

[Wander]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19753693/critical-coaches-who-is-the-most-overrated-coach-in-the-country

[CDu]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19753693/critical-coaches-who-is-the-most-overrated-coach-in-the-country

Awesome. Couldn't agree more. Williams has merely shown to be good at recruiting under historically great programs with fairly recent big names (Manning at Kansas, all of the UNC guys Dean Smith brought in at UNC). I love the first quote: "He's won at Kansas and UNC. But who couldn't do that ... besides Matt Doherty?"

Successfully bashing two UNC guys with one quote. Fantastic.

[lotusland]

I'm surprised Amaker is on the lisat and Coach K isn't. The first requirement for being overrated is to be highly rated so I would have expected K to get some backlash if for no other reason than resentment at the amount of publicity he gets especially now that he is the winningest coach. On the other hand how can you take Harvard to the dance and be overrated?

[CDu]

I'm surprised Amaker is on the lisat and Coach K isn't. The first requirement for being overrated is to be highly rated so I would have expected K to get some backlash if for no other reason than resentment at the amount of publicity he gets especially now that he is the winningest coach. On the other hand how can you take Harvard to the dance and be overrated?

I, too, am surprised that Coach K didn't make the list. The arguments that folks accept are:
1. Coach K basically built Duke to what it is today (we had a decent basketball history when he arrived; now we're on the short list of absolute best ever)
2. Coach K has done more with "similar" Olympic talent than some other coaches did (though I think this is as much Colangelo's approach as it is Coach K)

That said, I'm glad he isn't on the list.

[UrinalCake]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

[Duvall]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

The problem with Barnes is that you have to be rated before you can be overrated.

[lotusland]

The problem with Barnes is that you have to be rated before you can be overrated.

I have a soft spot for Barnes because of how much Carolina fans hated Clemson when he was there. I thought he did a pretty good job at Clemson but I agree that his teams at UT have under-perforned.

[flyingdutchdevil]

For the record, I don't like Roy Williams. I find him overly arrogant, overly whinny, and overly annoying. But to say that he is the most overrated coach out there is a stretch. He has won 2 NCs in his tenor at UNC, which is fairly impressive. You can make the argument that any competent coach could have won with such amazing talent, but a) Roy helped to bring in talent (okay, not the first NC but certainly the second) and b) managed talent and egos fairly effectively (McCants may whine about RoyWill now, but McCants bought into RoyWill's system). He's clearly not the best X&Os coach, but - given the right situation (great PG, strong frontcourt), he succeeds.

Barnes, Wright, Drew, and Howland are significantly more overrated IMO.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm surprised Amaker is on the lisat and Coach K isn't. The first requirement for being overrated is to be highly rated so I would have expected K to get some backlash if for no other reason than resentment at the amount of publicity he gets especially now that he is the winningest coach. On the other hand how can you take Harvard to the dance and be overrated?
I'm only surprised that Amaker is on the list. If K were on it then the list would instantly lose credibility. K's proven himself time and time again, the argument (if there were one) ends there.
As for Amaker, here what someone said about him. To be fair, Tommy only got 4%, which means that out of the "nearly 100" coaches polled, only 4 of them threw his name in the hat.

On Tommy Amaker: "He had his shot against the big boys [at Michigan] and couldn't get anything done. And now he's a good coach? Because he won the Ivy League with way better players than everybody else? Come on."
Umm...he has way better players than everybody else because he recruited way better than everybody else. Last I checked, being able to recruit is a good sign that a coach is doing at least part of his job right. The other part is winning with the talent that you get, and he's doing that too. I think it's funny that Tommy is called out for having the talent (and winning) and Barnes is called out for having the talent and losing.

[DukieInBrasil]

I'm only surprised that Amaker is on the list. If K were on it then the list would instantly lose credibility. K's proven himself time and time again, the argument (if there were one) ends there.
As for Amaker, here what someone said about him. To be fair, Tommy only got 4%, which means that out of the "nearly 100" coaches polled, only 4 of them threw his name in the hat.

Umm...he has way better players than everybody else because he recruited way better than everybody else. Last I checked, being able to recruit is a good sign that a coach is doing at least part of his job right. The other part is winning with the talent that you get, and he's doing that too. I think it's funny that Tommy is called out for having the talent (and winning) and Barnes is called out for having the talent and losing.

Don't forget that a good chunk of Tommy's time in Ann Arbor was spent on probation brought on UM by their previous coach. So for someone to claim he couldn't get it done there is a bit disingenuous.

[hurleyfor3]

Yeah, Michigan was still mopping up the mess from the Fib Five when Amaker was there. (That was a typo, honest, but it's too good to edit.)

Also:


Basically, [Roy] said he still recruits hard because he thinks of himself as a good coach but not as a great coach, and that he never wants to have to find out if he's good enough to win with average players.

Oh, but we already know the answer to this. See 2010.

[cspan37421]

Don't forget that a good chunk of Tommy's time in Ann Arbor was spent on probation brought on UM by their previous coach. So for someone to claim he couldn't get it done there is a bit disingenuous.

It's true he didn't get it done ... but that's a half truth. He didn't get it done with an albatross around his neck. We'll probably never know how good he could have been there if he hadn't been handed a program on probation. We do know he was good at Seton Hall ... that's what got him the Michigan job. I bet he would have been competing for a Big Ten title most years if not for that burden.

[CDu]

For the record, I don't like Roy Williams. I find him overly arrogant, overly whinny, and overly annoying. But to say that he is the most overrated coach out there is a stretch. He has won 2 NCs in his tenor at UNC, which is fairly impressive. You can make the argument that any competent coach could have won with such amazing talent, but a) Roy helped to bring in talent (okay, not the first NC but certainly the second) and b) managed talent and egos fairly effectively (McCants may whine about RoyWill now, but McCants bought into RoyWill's system). He's clearly not the best X&Os coach, but - given the right situation (great PG, strong frontcourt), he succeeds.

Barnes, Wright, Drew, and Howland are significantly more overrated IMO.

Again, it's more a question of where those guys are actually rated. Williams may well be a better coach than those other guys. But most everyone THINKS Williams is better. So in a measure of who is overrated (rather than who is a better/worse coach), it's all relative to the perception.

I don't think anyone considers Barnes, Wright, Drew, or Howland among the best coach in the country. Many folks DO think that of Williams. So it's harder to say they're overrated.

[Edouble]

I am no fan of Roy, as I bleed Duke blue, but c'mon... the article says that he is overrated because anyone could win with his great players, then in the next paragraph goes on to say that Rick Barnes is overrated because he never does anything with the great players that he recruits! What a bunch of horse manure!

So, if I am reading the article correctly, besides Matt D'oherty, we can probably add Rick Barnes to the list of coaches that couldn't (theoretically) win at Carolina or Kansas. We could also add Bill Guthridge to that list. Guthridge was handed what was probably one of the best 3 Carolina teams in the last 20 years in 1998, and after that he recruited what was probably the worst Carolina team in the past 20 years, not extending a scholarship offer to Jason Williams because he already had Adam Boone locked up, if I am remembering correctly. Gut is an easy precedent to point to, to show that it does take work. Roy's done the work and has 2 NCs.

[CDu]

I am no fan of Roy, as I bleed Duke blue, but c'mon... the article says that he is overrated because anyone could win with his great players, then in the next paragraph goes on to say that Rick Barnes is overrated because he never does anything with the great players that he recruits! What a bunch of horsesh*t!

So, if I am reading the article correctly, besides Matt D'oherty, we can probably add Rick Barnes to the list of coaches that couldn't (theoretically) win at Carolina or Kansas. We could also add Bill Guthridge to that list. Guthridge was handed what was probably one of the best 3 Carolina teams in the last 20 years in 1998, and after that he recruited what was probably the worst Carolina team in the past 20 years, not extending a scholarship offer to Jason Williams because he already had Adam Boone locked up, if I am remembering correctly. Gut is an easy precedent to point to, to show that it does take work. Roy's done the work and has 2 NCs.

First of all, those are selected quotes from various coaches - not the rationale for a particular rating. The results are based on an actual poll of coaches. So the apparent inconsistency isn't evidence of B.S. It's just selected evidence of what two different coaches happened to say about those two coaches.

Second, this is a poll asking folks to make a subjective judgement on a nebulous concept of "rating" and "ability" and "what defines a good coach." As such, there's nothing necessarily logically incorrect about saying that Barnes is overrated because can't win with great players and Williams is overrated because he has only coached in perfect situations. Barnes can be a worse coach than Williams and not be as overrated as Williams. In that scenario, then it is a question of the difference between skill and perceived rating. Not just a measure of skill.

But the big point is that this is ENTIRELY subjective. There is no such thing as a wrong answer.

[hurleyfor3]

People! Roy shows up at the top of a "who sucks the most" list. Do we really need to get all analytical?

[devildeac]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

Barnes? Overrated?

Oh, you meant Rick Barnes;):rolleyes:.

[Edouble]

But the big point is that this is ENTIRELY subjective. There is no such thing as a wrong answer.

HA! Of course there is! A wrong answer IS possible. Opinions are fallible.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here.....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

Roy Williams is one of the top coaches in the game by any reasonable measurement of his career compared to any other coach out there.

[wilko]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here.....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

Roy Williams is one of the top coaches in the game by any reasonable measurement of his career compared to any other coach out there.

Perhaps... but this IS a whole lotta fun.

[Gewebe14]

Oh, but we already know the answer to this. See 2010.

I know - the horror of having only 3 lottery picks in addition to 2 senior starters!

This is why I'm cautiously optimistic about this year - only ONE (probably) lottery pick!

[billy]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here.....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

There seems to be a whole lot of this mentality coming out of chapel hill for the last few months

FWIW, I actually like ol' Roy; I find his bluntness refreshing. The fact that he doesn't give a ___ is just as infuriating to UNC fans as it is to everyone else, and, he still doesn't give one.

[subzero02]

The problem with Barnes is that you have to be rated before you can be overrated.

Well played...

[oldnavy]

I've been saying this same thing for years. I am happy to have 100 coaches agree AND the guy that wrote the article agree with my thoughts on Ol Roy. He is really good at recruiting, not great, because we just don't know if he could recruit at a smaller lesser known school than one of the 4 or 5 true BLUE BLOODS of the sport.

What they didn't touch on is his game management "lack" of skills. He is one of the worst big time coaches that I have seen at managing a game after the ball is jumped. There are lots of example of this which I have beat into the ground over the years (his use or lack thereof to use time outs, his substitution patterns, his play calling at end of games, etc...).

As a recruiter, well he has recruited well at UNC and KU.... what can you really say about that?

As a coach... I think Ol Roy said it best, he thinks he is ok, but not great. I love the line about him not wanting to know if he could win with average players... one thing about Ol Roy, he lays it all out there for ya.

What is funny is that I can relate to Roy. I think I am more like him than I would want to admit.

[CDu]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here.....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

Roy Williams is one of the top coaches in the game by any reasonable measurement of his career compared to any other coach out there.

Actually, it isn't media crapola. This was the opinion of the coaches themselves.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I cannot wait until some media hound confronts him with this and asks for his opinion and response. Should be juicy!

[turnandburn55]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here.....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

Roy Williams is one of the top coaches in the game by any reasonable measurement of his career compared to any other coach out there.

Perhaps you should re-read the article (or even the subject of this thread). It doesn't say "Roy Williams is a bad coach", it says "Roy Williams is overrated". There is a distinct difference.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Again, it's more a question of where those guys are actually rated. Williams may well be a better coach than those other guys. But most everyone THINKS Williams is better. So in a measure of who is overrated (rather than who is a better/worse coach), it's all relative to the perception.

I don't think anyone considers Barnes, Wright, Drew, or Howland among the best coach in the country. Many folks DO think that of Williams. So it's harder to say they're overrated.

Great point. Never thought of that. So, as per the article, if coaches are looking at this primarily from an Xs and Os standpoint, who is underrated? I'd have to say that Brad Stevens and (sigh) Jim Calhoun get top honors, no?

[rsvman]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

+1,000,000. Barnes is way worse than Roy, IMO. Roy is not a very good X's and O's coach, though, and he doesn't even think about altering a playing style to fit his player's strengths and weaknesses. I guess I'd say his major defect is that he stubbornly sticks to a plan even when it is clear that it won't work.

[Wander]

Great point. Never thought of that. So, as per the article, if coaches are looking at this primarily from an Xs and Os standpoint, who is underrated? I'd have to say that Brad Stevens and (sigh) Jim Calhoun get top honors, no?

They did the underrated version the day before. The top vote-getter was Fran Dunphy of Temple, followed by Bennett of St. Mary's. Like CDu has been pointing out, it's an expectations/hype thing - I think everyone agrees Stevens and Calhoun are really good coaches to begin with.

By the way, they're doing this type of thing (asking ~100 coaches their opinion of some college ball subject) every day for a few weeks. It's a cool series.

[hudlow]

I always figured if I had Earnhardt Jr.'s car and backing that I could wreck or finish back in the pack as good as he could....

[UrinalCake]

As a coach... I think Ol Roy said it best, he thinks he is ok, but not great. I love the line about him not wanting to know if he could win with average players... one thing about Ol Roy, he lays it all out there for ya.

The quote where Roy said he thinks of himself as an ok coach who needs to have great players strikes me as a carryover from the Dean Smith era. Smith was always self-deprecating, he'd put himself down and place the blame on himself when the team lost while praising his players when they won. Everyone sort of understood this about him and respected it. But when Roy does it, it doesn't quite work the same way because people actually believe him when he says he's not that good 8-)

Also, it should be pointed out that the article clearly states that they are referring only to in-game coaching. It acknowledges that this is only one aspect of coaching. It's pretty hard to isolate just that part when evaluating a coach, because there are so many other aspects to the job - recruiting (both evaluating talent and getting the guys to come to your school), player development, managing the psychology/motivation of 18 year-old kids, etc.

[Indoor66]

I always figured if I had Earnhardt Jr.'s car and backing that I could wreck or finish back in the pack as good as he could....

Isn't that how we ALL fool ourselves?

[UrinalCake]

Isn't that how we ALL fool ourselves?

Yeah, like when people say if they had Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant then they could win as many titles as Phil Jackson.

[grit74]

"Uh, Coach Ole Roy , I think they're playing a zone."

"Dadgum it, don't interrupt me when I'm drinkin' a frickin' Coke."

"But, Coach, I'm pretty sure they're playing a zone."

"Listen, i've been coaching for thirty years. I know more than all you short pants assistants put together."

"Sorry, Coach, but we haven't scored in, like, forever. Don't you want to win?"

"Want to win? I've got more fire than a frickin' volcano."

"But Coach, it's a zone, and it's killing us."

"I don't give a damn about any zone."

[ohiodukefan]

This is ridiculous. He's taken 7 teams to Final Fours. There are only 3 other coaches in the history of this great game that have been to more, Wooden, K and Dean. How can anyone say that's over rated?? Plus he's taken 4 or 5 other teams to Elite Eights. Thank gawd for Kansas in 2012 and Kentucky in 2011 or Williams would have taken teams to Final Fours in 5 out of the last 8 years!!! How is that OVER RATED???

[dcdevil2009]

This is ridiculous. He's taken 7 teams to Final Fours. There are only 3 other coaches in the history of this great game that have been to more, Wooden, K and Dean. How can anyone say that's over rated?? Plus he's taken 4 or 5 other teams to Elite Eights. Thank gawd for Kansas in 2012 and Kentucky in 2011 or Williams would have taken teams to Final Fours in 5 out of the last 8 years!!! How is that OVER RATED???

Two reasons: first, because it's based on in-game coaching (aka, given your players, how should you have done?) and second, how are you generally rated? No one is denying that Williams is a great recruiter, nor are they denying that he's been successful at UNC. However, with the teams he's had, he hasn't exactly exceeded preseason expectations. I'm willing to ignore last year with the Marshall injury, but Roy has rarely been accused of getting the most out of his players. Instead, he's relied on his legitimately great recruiting ability and been successful when he has players that fit his system, but when it comes to using x's and o's to hide his teams weaknesses, he hasn't done a good job.

[Olympic Fan]

I always figured if I had Earnhardt Jr.'s car and backing that I could wreck or finish back in the pack as good as he could....

It's amazing that you bring this up because it relates to a story that shaped my perspective of NASCAR (and it applies to this thread).

When I was a kid, one of the top drivers on the NASCAR tour was a guy named Marvin Paunch, who drove for the Wood Brothers.

But then he was in a terrible crash. His car caught on fire and he was trapped in the driver's seat. An unknown driver named Tiny Lund (the Tiny was ironic -- he was huge) risked his life to pull Paunch from his car. The famous driver was hospitalized for about two months. During that time, the Wood Brothers offered the driving job to Lund. In his first race for the Wood Brothers (who proved to be one of NASCARs greatest teams), Lind drove to victory in the Daytona 500. Lund stayed with the Wood team for 3-4 races and was always running near the top -- he came within a couple of laps of running away with the Southeastern 500 before he blew an engine with a couple of miles to go.

But then Paunch came back and Lund disappeared. He lost his ride with the Wood Brothers and bounced around to other teams without success. He DNF in his next 21 races. Eventually, he hooked up with Petty Enterprises as their No. 3 driver and had some decent races, but never won a major race again.

The point is that Tiny Lund was an average driver. But when he drove for a great team, he was a great driver - the equal of Petty, Lorenzon or Junior Johnson.

It's the same for college basketball coaches. Roy Williams has had the benefit of coaching at two of the established blue blood schools in the sport. He's had great success at thos two schools. He deserves credit for that. But don't we also have to look at the situations he inherited and assign degree of difficulty.

PS I'm sure a critic could say the same thing about Coach K's success at Duke ... except that Duke wasn't a blue blood when he took over. He MADE Duke one of the top programs in the country (just as Rupp did at Kentucky, Wooden did at UCLA and Dean Smith did at UNC).

I'm glad to see that the 100 coaches polled agree with that evaluation.

[Indoor66]

It's amazing that you bring this up because it relates to a story that shaped my perspective of NASCAR (and it applies to this thread).

When I was a kid, one of the top drivers on the NASCAR tour was a guy named Marvin Paunch, who drove for the Wood Brothers.

But then he was in a terrible crash. His car caught on fire and he was trapped in the driver's seat. An unknown driver named Tiny Lund (the Tiny was ironic -- he was huge) risked his life to pull Paunch from his car. The famous driver was hospitalized for about two months. During that time, the Wood Brothers offered the driving job to Lund. In his first race for the Wood Brothers (who proved to be one of NASCARs greatest teams), Lind drove to victory in the Daytona 500. Lund stayed with the Wood team for 3-4 races and was always running near the top -- he came within a couple of laps of running away with the Southeastern 500 before he blew an engine with a couple of miles to go.

But then Paunch came back and Lund disappeared. He lost his ride with the Wood Brothers and bounced around to other teams without success. He DNF in his next 21 races. Eventually, he hooked up with Petty Enterprises as their No. 3 driver and had some decent races, but never won a major race again.

The point is that Tiny Lund was an average driver. But when he drove for a great team, he was a great driver - the equal of Petty, Lorenzon or Junior Johnson.

It's the same for college basketball coaches. Roy Williams has had the benefit of coaching at two of the established blue blood schools in the sport. He's had great success at thos two schools. He deserves credit for that. But don't we also have to look at the situations he inherited and assign degree of difficulty.

PS I'm sure a critic could say the same thing about Coach K's success at Duke ... except that Duke wasn't a blue blood when he took over. He MADE Duke one of the top programs in the country (just as Rupp did at Kentucky, Wooden did at UCLA and Dean Smith did at UNC).

I'm glad to see that the 100 coaches polled agree with that evaluation.

When Dean took over at UNC they were three years from an undefeated season and winning the national championship - over Kansas and Chamberlain. He had a good start.

[CDu]

This is ridiculous. He's taken 7 teams to Final Fours. There are only 3 other coaches in the history of this great game that have been to more, Wooden, K and Dean. How can anyone say that's over rated?? Plus he's taken 4 or 5 other teams to Elite Eights. Thank gawd for Kansas in 2012 and Kentucky in 2011 or Williams would have taken teams to Final Fours in 5 out of the last 8 years!!! How is that OVER RATED???

Because it isn't simply a measure of who is the best coach. It is a measure of which coach has the biggest discrepancy between actual coaching ability and perceived coaching ability. More specifically, this poll is a bunch of coaches' subjective assessments of the difference between:

a. Their perception of a particular coach's ability; and
b. Their perception of the general public's perception of that coach's ability

The coach whose general public perceived ability most exceeds his perceived ability in the poll-voting coach's eyes is the most overrated (as determined by that poll-voting coach). The coach whom gets the most votes for overrated is then the most overrated coach amongst those coaches who voted.

So again, there is absolutely nothing necessarily inconsistent about saying that Williams is a better coach than Barnes AND saying that Williams is more overrated. It's purely a matter of the difference in meaning between overrated/underrated and good/bad.

[turnandburn55]

This is ridiculous. He's taken 7 teams to Final Fours. There are only 3 other coaches in the history of this great game that have been to more, Wooden, K and Dean. How can anyone say that's over rated?? Plus he's taken 4 or 5 other teams to Elite Eights. Thank gawd for Kansas in 2012 and Kentucky in 2011 or Williams would have taken teams to Final Fours in 5 out of the last 8 years!!! How is that OVER RATED???

Like several others, you have made an excellent, poignant, and well-taken counter argument...... if the argument was "Roy Williams is a bad coach". The argument is not that he is a bad coach. The argument is that he is overrated. Overrated does not mean "bad". It simply means "less good than he is made out to be".

[OldPhiKap]

This is ridiculous. He's taken 7 teams to Final Fours. There are only 3 other coaches in the history of this great game that have been to more, Wooden, K and Dean. How can anyone say that's over rated?? Plus he's taken 4 or 5 other teams to Elite Eights. Thank gawd for Kansas in 2012 and Kentucky in 2011 or Williams would have taken teams to Final Fours in 5 out of the last 8 years!!! How is that OVER RATED???

The coaches in the poll think otherwise.

I see your argument if we're talking about a fan poll. But these aren't bleacher bums that are saying this. It's his peers.


(To be fair, I would grant that there is probably a bit of jealousy in this because Roy did not have to start at the bottom. He was born on third base. Any poll that doesn't have Rick Barnes as the #1 is suspect to me -- but it's funny so I won't question too deeply. ;>) )

[UrinalCake]

The coach whose general public perceived ability most exceeds his perceived ability in the poll-voting coach's eyes is the most overrated (as determined by that poll-voting coach).

I'm wondering what Roy would have to achieve in order to not be considered overrated. Win three titles since 2005? Four? Would he have to achieve the same results but with worse players?

I think he faces the same dilemma as Coach K in that they get top recruiting classes every year, so anything short of a title is considered a disappointment. The only reason Coach K isn't on this list IMO is that his work with the National Team has proved his abilities as a coach. Based strictly on Duke's performance, we've had plenty of disappointing/underachieving seasons too.

[MaxAMillion]

If Roy Williams is overrated then Dean Smith must really be a bum. He coached at UNC a lot longer than Williams and he didn't get three national championships.

[OldPhiKap]

If Roy Williams is overrated then Dean Smith must really be a bum. He coached at UNC a lot longer than Williams and he didn't get three national championships.

Coach K has never won a Helms. So there's that.

[75Crazie]

If Roy Williams is overrated then Dean Smith must really be a bum. He coached at UNC a lot longer than Williams and he didn't get three national championships.
Is my counting faulty? I only count two NCs for Williams.

[sporthenry]

I'm wondering what Roy would have to achieve in order to not be considered overrated. Win three titles since 2005? Four? Would he have to achieve the same results but with worse players?

I think he faces the same dilemma as Coach K in that they get top recruiting classes every year, so anything short of a title is considered a disappointment. The only reason Coach K isn't on this list IMO is that his work with the National Team has proved his abilities as a coach. Based strictly on Duke's performance, we've had plenty of disappointing/underachieving seasons too.

Just about every coach on there seems to be a guy the national media loves and considers a great coach yet squanders many talented squads. Most of them are great recruiters like Jay Wright, Scott Drew, Roy, and Barnes yet never seem to change much from their game plans. Drew has the zone, Wright plays the 3-4 guards out, Roy needs his PG, and Barnes just needs Durant back for all of them to succeed.

The reason K has not shown up on this list is that he has found ways to win with any and everyone. He wins with a high tempo team like 2001 and wins with a half court team like 2010. Additionally, while both Roy and K get relatively the same amount of talent in recruiting, it seems that K is much better at getting the most out of his talent when it doesn't develop and masking his teams weaknesses. This leads to K constantly overachieving in the regular season like this year or even 2007 when they were bounced by VCU. These teams exposed their weaknesses and in retrospect, people seem to give K more credit that he took the teams where they went in the regular season as opposed to greatly underachieving in the tournament. Meanwhile, you have Roy with 7 McD AA's and a preseason top 10 team that was blown out 82-50 by Duke and went to the NIT.

On the whole, I think the list is fairly spot on littered with guys who know how to recruit and win a certain way but can't adapt. But in college, recruiting is a big part of coaching so most of these coaches don't have to worry about their jobs. Although I'd be surprised if Rick Barnes' seat doesn't start to get warmer and Jay Wright has flown relatively under the radar even though his teams have collapsed.

[CDu]

Like several others, you have made an excellent, poignant, and well-taken counter argument...... if the argument was "Roy Williams is a bad coach". The argument is not that he is a bad coach. The argument is that he is overrated. Overrated does not mean "bad". It simply means "less good than he is made out to be".

Exactly. It really seems like folks are unable to distinguish between "overrated" and "bad." They can be very different things.

[MChambers]

Is my counting faulty? I only count two NCs for Williams.

UNC has decided to attribute the Helms trophy to Ol' Roy.

[CDu]

I'm wondering what Roy would have to achieve in order to not be considered overrated. Win three titles since 2005? Four? Would he have to achieve the same results but with worse players?

I think he faces the same dilemma as Coach K in that they get top recruiting classes every year, so anything short of a title is considered a disappointment. The only reason Coach K isn't on this list IMO is that his work with the National Team has proved his abilities as a coach. Based strictly on Duke's performance, we've had plenty of disappointing/underachieving seasons too.

There are two ways to become less overrated:
1. Improve as an in-game coach; or
2. Get worse to the point that folks don't think you're any good at coaching.

It is clear by this poll that the other coaches think less of Williams' in-game coaching ability than the average fan/media-person. So to accomplish (1) he'd probably have to leave his UNC position, go to some no-name school, then coach that small school up to a Final Four. Accomplishing (2) would probably be easier: have several losing seasons so that the media doesn't think you're good anymore. That would eliminate the negative discrepancy between general public perceived ability and coaches' perceived ability. Heck, Williams might even become UNDERrated if he were to tank enough seasons.

That's the intricacy of such a question. You don't necessarily have to improve as a coach to become less overrated. And conversely, you don't necessarily have to get worse as a coach to become more overrated.

Note: that's also why this question is somewhat meaningless. All that really matters are results. It doesn't matter whether the other coaches think you're as good at coaching as the public thinks you are. It just matters what the results are.

The only nice thing is that it (to some degree) confirms what some folks think, and that Williams does less with more than a lot of coaches (at least according to other coaches).

[JTH]

Is my counting faulty? I only count two NCs for Williams.

Nope. You have it right. 1 + 1 is still 2.

(And 2 is still<4.:rolleyes:)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

[Wander]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Actually, none of the coaches mention Coach K. The brief mention is something the writer added in.

I think the articles are pretty enlightening, as we rarely get to see anything beyond coachspeak from a lot of these guys.

[Duvall]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Oh, Wheat. You do realize that no one actually said that, as opposed to the dozens of coaches that really did say that Williams is overrated? Several coaches claimed that Wesley is shady, and Jeff Goodman noted Wesley's proximity to the U.S. national team as one of his many connections. (If anything, that proximity is a result of Wesley's very close relationship with LeBron, but Wesley does know just about everyone.)

Try not to make things up.

[Olympic Fan]

When Dean took over at UNC they were three years from an undefeated season and winning the national championship - over Kansas and Chamberlain. He had a good start.

Actually, Dean took over the program for the 1961-62 season -- five years after UNC's 32-0 national title season in 1957.

But that was a fluke. Between 1945 and 1967 -- a string of 22 years -- UNC won one conference title (1957). In that 22-year span, they finished in the final AP top 10 just three times.

The truth is that before UNC hired Dean, UNC was a solid regional program, but nothing special on a national level. They had little national history beyond that '57 miracle (and that fictitous '24 bakery title when they didn't beat a single team outside the South) and they had the worst facilities in the ACC. Plus, they were coming off probation in '61 and were entering a UNC system dictated de-emphasis of basketball because of the point shaving scandal.

My point is that despite that great run in 1957, NOBODY would have argued that UNC was an elite national program. Dean changed that. Now UNC is of of the top 5-6 (along with Kentucky, UCLA, Kansas, Duke and maybe Indiana).

Duke was in a very similar situation when K took over for the 1980-81 season. Bill Foster had been to the Final Four in 1978 and had won two of the three previous ACC championhips. Duke was a nice regional program (with run down facilities -- Billy Packer argued that Cameron was the worst homecourt in the ACC), but NOBODY would have put Duke among the nationl elite.

Now nobody would leave Duke out ... K -- like Dean -- turned his program into one of the blue bloods.

[sagegrouse]

Again, it's more a question of where those guys are actually rated. Williams may well be a better coach than those other guys. But most everyone THINKS Williams is better. So in a measure of who is overrated (rather than who is a better/worse coach), it's all relative to the perception.

I don't think anyone considers Barnes, Wright, Drew, or Howland among the best coach in the country. Many folks DO think that of Williams. So it's harder to say they're overrated.

So, the CBS article on "overrated coaches" is conducted without there being a rating and ranking of coaches against which to measure "over-ratedness." I thought about this for a few minutes, and it really made my head hurt.

sagegrouse

[grit74]

Actually, Dean took over the program for the 1961-62 season -- five years after UNC's 32-0 national title season in 1957.

But that was a fluke. Between 1945 and 1967 -- a string of 22 years -- UNC won one conference title (1957). In that 22-year span, they finished in the final AP top 10 just three times.

The truth is that before UNC hired Dean, UNC was a solid regional program, but nothing special on a national level. They had little national history beyond that '57 miracle (and that fictitous '24 bakery title when they didn't beat a single team outside the South) and they had the worst facilities in the ACC. Plus, they were coming off probation in '61 and were entering a UNC system dictated de-emphasis of basketball because of the point shaving scandal.

My point is that despite that great run in 1957, NOBODY would have argued that UNC was an elite national program. Dean changed that. Now UNC is of of the top 5-6 (along with Kentucky, UCLA, Kansas, Duke and maybe Indiana).

Duke was in a very similar situation when K took over for the 1980-81 season. Bill Foster had been to the Final Four in 1978 and had won two of the three previous ACC championhips. Duke was a nice regional program (with run down facilities -- Billy Packer argued that Cameron was the worst homecourt in the ACC), but NOBODY would have put Duke among the nationl elite.

Now nobody would leave Duke out ... K -- like Dean -- turned his program into one of the blue bloods.

I don't want to argue your point, except to point out that Duke's record in the 1960's was pretty good: 4 ACC titles, 4 regular season 1st place, 3 Final Fours, 1 Elite Eight. Only UCLA and Kentucky won more games in the 1960's. And a couple of pretty good teams did not win the ACC Tourney.

So, maybe the right formulation is that K returned Duke to national prominence and grew it from there.

Billy Packer argued a lot of things. He was even sometimes right.

[Des Esseintes]

There are two ways to become less overrated:
1. Improve as an in-game coach; or
2. Get worse to the point that folks don't think you're any good at coaching.

It is clear by this poll that the other coaches think less of Williams' in-game coaching ability than the average fan/media-person. So to accomplish (1) he'd probably have to leave his UNC position, go to some no-name school, then coach that small school up to a Final Four. Accomplishing (2) would probably be easier: have several losing seasons so that the media doesn't think you're good anymore. That would eliminate the negative discrepancy between general public perceived ability and coaches' perceived ability. Heck, Williams might even become UNDERrated if he were to tank enough seasons.

That's the intricacy of such a question. You don't necessarily have to improve as a coach to become less overrated. And conversely, you don't necessarily have to get worse as a coach to become more overrated.

Note: that's also why this question is somewhat meaningless. All that really matters are results. It doesn't matter whether the other coaches think you're as good at coaching as the public thinks you are. It just matters what the results are.

The only nice thing is that it (to some degree) confirms what some folks think, and that Williams does less with more than a lot of coaches (at least according to other coaches).

I suspect the debacle that was the 2010 season hurt him pretty badly on this score. That was a very young team, with a litany of injuries, but the feeling even among many Carolina faithful was that K could have made the (NCAA) tournament with that squad. Absent that season, all Roy's ever done is win. With that season, you can argue Roy's never won without overwhelming talent.

[hq2]

I suspect the debacle that was the 2010 season hurt him pretty badly on this score. That was a very young team, with a litany of injuries, but the feeling even among many Carolina faithful was that K could have made the (NCAA) tournament with that squad. Absent that season, all Roy's ever done is win. With that season, you can argue Roy's never won without overwhelming talent.

Roy has usually done maybe about as well as his overall talent, with a few not-quite-that good years recently. He's not a brilliant game coach, but his teams usually are well prepared and execute their plays well. He's also obviously a pretty decent recruiter; Carolina in recent years has pretty much had a McDonald's All American buffet every year. Whether he gets the most out of his talent isn't always clear. When he's had National Championship level talent, he's gotten it done, kind of like the Joe Torre Yankees run 15 years ago (they had better talent, just don't do anything stupid.) Overall, however, it's hard to find a time when his coaching elevated his team beyond their apparent talent level (see Brad Stevens), so I think a lot of other coaches don't want to give him credit.

[Newton_14]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

Nice try Wheat, but the facts are such that WWW has never steered a single recruit to Duke, nor to my knowledge has he ever been given access to Duke teams, locker rooms, practices, etc. Wes is a Kentucky/Calipari guy through and through.

K allowed WWW (along with numerous other people) to attend the USA team practice, workouts, etc, because of the relationship WWW has with the NBA guys, mainly Lebron. None of that has anything at all to do with Duke Basketball or Duke recruits. The statement that "K is dealing with street agents" really did not make sense to me, so not sure what that would even mean. I assume all coaches have relationships with numerous agents, and assist their players with agent selection once their college careers come to an end. Maybe you meant agent "runners", but again, I think there is a better chance of Hell having ice, and Mars having humans, than K dealing with runners.

[jimsumner]

I don't want to argue your point, except to point out that Duke's record in the 1960's was pretty good: 4 ACC titles, 4 regular season 1st place, 3 Final Fours, 1 Elite Eight. Only UCLA and Kentucky won more games in the 1960's. And a couple of pretty good teams did not win the ACC Tourney.

So, maybe the right formulation is that K returned Duke to national prominence and grew it from there.

Billy Packer argued a lot of things. He was even sometimes right.

Actually, Duke was third in wins in the 1960s to UCLA and Cincinnati. Kentucky was seventh.

I probably would rank pre-McGuire Carolina a tad higher than Olympic Fan. They did finish second in the 1946 NCAAs and George Glamack was a first-team All-America in 1941. And Helms jokes notwithstanding, Carolina was pretty good in the 1920s.

Ironically, Duke won the 1946 Southern Conference Tournament but Carolina got the invite. In fact, none of Duke's five Southern Conference Tournament titles resulted in an NCAA Tournament invitation, not even Eddie Cameron's last team in 1942, which went 22-2. It was an eight-team field in those days and Kentucky tended to get the Southeast slot.

McGuire took over a Carolina program that had fallen well behind Everett Case and North Carolina State and was none too happy about it. His predecessor at Carolina, Tom Scott knew his X and Os as well as anyone but wasn't all that enthusiastic about that recruiting thing.

[OldPhiKap]

Bobby Cremins was probably the best recruiter in the ACC for a good long stretch. Would anyone call him a good coach, though?

Roy is a modern-day Bobby Cremins, with a more popular and established brand to pitch.

[devildeac]

Nice try Wheat, but the facts are such that WWW has never steered a single recruit to Duke, nor to my knowledge has he ever been given access to Duke teams, locker rooms, practices, etc. Wes is a Kentucky/Calipari guy through and through.

K allowed WWW (along with numerous other people) to attend the USA team practice, workouts, etc, because of the relationship WWW has with the NBA guys, mainly Lebron. None of that has anything at all to do with Duke Basketball or Duke recruits. The statement that "K is dealing with street agents" really did not make sense to me, so not sure what that would even mean. I assume all coaches have relationships with numerous agents, and assist their players with agent selection once their college careers come to an end. Maybe you meant agent "runners", but again, I think there is a better chance of Hell having ice, and Mars having humans, than K dealing with runners.

Well, here's your first one:

2745

[turnandburn55]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

So what you're saying is that you tried to conflate the word "overrated" with "bad", you got called out on it, didn't like it, and now you're trying to conflate the word "overrated" with "shady"

I compliment your excellent work on bait-and-switch. I look forward to you discussing the actual subject line of thread.

[BD80]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

[oldnavy]

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

First of all it is not Wheat's fault he can't write in Swahili. He was blocked from taking the "course" because he wasn't a big time footballer or b baller! Just Kidding... maybe Wheat was, I don't really know.

And yes Wheat, that is a real stretch... the converse to K "allowing" WWW to be near the team, would be him telling grown men (professionals) who they can and cannot associate with... kind of like we try to do with our teenage kids... ridiculous to think that he would.

When there is evidence that WWW is attending Duke practices, let's talk.

I happen to agree with the idea that Ol Roy is overrated in the sense that he is a great "coach". The problem with this is that it doesn't matter what the 100 coaches, or I think about Ol Roy. He wins, and he wins without cheating (as far as we know, I would like to hear more about the academic scandle and BB players before I say anything else about that). But I am willing to give him a clean record until it is PROVEN different with actual facts.

Roy IS overrated as a coach, big deal, I'd take him and his 80% win record and just smile when folks said that if I were a UNC fan....

[OldPhiKap]

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

Roy Williams si nzuri kama yeye inaonekana kuwa.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My last post was simply a hypothetical example of how these offseason articles are written to stir the pot.

I saw where coach K has allowed WWW to travel with the O team. All it would take is a couple of jealous/anonymous sources/coaches comments and an article saying, "coach k has a new friend, WWW" , insinuating shady recruiting from a web site hoping to drive traffic and Duke fans would be out in force defending coach K's integrity...when it was a crock story from the start.

Sort of like that article saying one of the top coaches in the country is overrated, when he has a a proven track record against those same"sources".

[OldPhiKap]

My last post was simply a hypothetical example of how these offseason articles are written to stir the pot.

I saw where coach K has allowed WWW to travel with the O team. All it would take is a couple of jealous/anonymous sources/coaches comments and an article saying, "coach k has a new friend, WWW" , insinuating shady recruiting from a web site hoping to drive traffic and Duke fans would be out in force defending coach K's integrity...when it was a crock story from the start.

Sort of like that article saying one of the top coaches in the country is overrated, when he has a a proven track record against those same"sources".

But the difference here is that the source of the opinion is not some hack writer trying to drive traffic to his or her site. It is Roy's peers.

If they took a coach's poll, and a significant number thought that K was shady, your argument might hold water (or "maji" in Swahili). And I would be greatly concerned if K's peers thought that.

Doesn't it bother you that Roy's peers think he's the most overrated coach?

[allenmurray]

Nice try Wheat, but the facts are such that WWW has never steered a single recruit to Duke, nor to my knowledge has he ever been given access to Duke teams, locker rooms, practices, etc. Wes is a Kentucky/Calipari guy through and through.

K allowed WWW (along with numerous other people) to attend the USA team practice, workouts, etc, because of the relationship WWW has with the NBA guys, mainly Lebron. None of that has anything at all to do with Duke Basketball or Duke recruits. The statement that "K is dealing with street agents" really did not make sense to me, so not sure what that would even mean. I assume all coaches have relationships with numerous agents, and assist their players with agent selection once their college careers come to an end. Maybe you meant agent "runners", but again, I think there is a better chance of Hell having ice, and Mars having humans, than K dealing with runners.

Wheat is usually reasonable - here he is just making stuff up. Sad.

[CDu]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting....and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.
(http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19761238/critical-coaches-how-much-of-a-factor-is-world-wide-wes-in-recruiting)

Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

Oh, Wheat, bless your bad-comprehension-or-poor-attempt-at-trolling heart. No coach said Coach K is buddying up with World Wide Wes. That is a fabrication of a spin of a spin. The CBS writer simply noted that Coach K allowed WWW to have contact with the players on the USA team. Surely you can understand that distinction, right? That is, in NO way, comparable to a poll of actual coaches with actual quotes from said coaches that listed Williams as most overrated.

[miramar]

Several people have noted that Barnes is a much worse coach than Williams, but he's not overrated because by now he doesn't have much of a reputation to begin with.

If the question had been "Who gets less out of his recruits?" or "Who's the most overpaid" then I think that Barnes would have been #1 and Howland #2.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Doesn't it bother you that Roy's peers think he's the most overrated coach?

No. The whole premise smacks of jealousy to me. I would be more concerned if these coaches could actually beat him.

[flyingdutchdevil]

No. The whole premise smacks of jealousy to me. I would be more concerned if these coaches could actually beat him.

In Wheat's defense, if Coach K was on that list, wouldn't our response be the exact same?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Oh, Wheat, bless your bad-comprehension-or-poor-attempt-at-trolling heart. No coach said Coach K is buddying up with World Wide Wes. That is a fabrication of a spin of a spin.

You may want to look in the mirror here.

Where did I say a coach said that? It was a hypothetical statement meant to show how one of these articles could be written to draw a reaction and page views, and that they are crap.

The link was attached simply to show that WWW is hanging around coach K, which could lend some credibility to a potential crock 'o crap article like that...if one was written.

[UrinalCake]

I suspect the debacle that was the 2010 season hurt him pretty badly on this score. That was a very young team, with a litany of injuries, but the feeling even among many Carolina faithful was that K could have made the (NCAA) tournament with that squad. Absent that season, all Roy's ever done is win. With that season, you can argue Roy's never won without overwhelming talent.

I hate to say it but if you take 2010 out of the equation then Coach K's tournament performances in the past decade don't look so hot. I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.

They were talking about Roy on the local radio talk show yesterday afternoon and concluded that the coaches in this poll were mostly just jealous of Roy because he was handed the keys to UNC and didn't have to work as hard to get there. Coaches at smaller schools with less resources all feel like they could do just as good a job if they were put in his position, so they resent the way the media gushes over Roy's success. I think this has some merit, but again that's not to say that Roy isn't a good coach.

[CDu]

You may want to look in the mirror here.

Where did I say a coach said that? It was a hypothetical statement meant to show how one of these articles could be written to draw a reaction and page views, and that they are crap.

The link was attached simply to show that WWW is hanging around coach K, which could lend some credibility to a potential crock 'o crap article like that...if one was written.

The difference is that your hypothetical requires a fabrication of facts AND some serious spin. The actual article mentioned was a poll of coaches on a specific question. QUITE difference. That's what I was saying about your either comprehension or trolling. You created a MUCH different scenario than the one presented in this article. Your example really would be crapola. This is just insight into what the coaches think of the other coaches. Very different.

And this is coming from someone who agrees that the subjective poll doesn't mean anything. It's just interesting to see that other coaches share a similar view as us Duke fans when it comes to Williams' coaching chops.

[CDu]

I hate to say it but if you take 2010 out of the equation then Coach K's tournament performances in the past decade don't look so hot. I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.

Sure. If this poll was taken in 2009, Coach K would very likely have been on the list. But the 2010 season happened.


They were talking about Roy on the local radio talk show yesterday afternoon and concluded that the coaches in this poll were mostly just jealous of Roy because he was handed the keys to UNC and didn't have to work as hard to get there. Coaches at smaller schools with less resources all feel like they could do just as good a job if they were put in his position, so they resent the way the media gushes over Roy's success. I think this has some merit, but again that's not to say that Roy isn't a good coach.

There absolutely is jealousy involved. Almost any coach would love to be handed the keys to two of the greatest programs in history without having any prior head coaching experience. But again, this wasn't a poll of "whom other coaches think is a good/bad coach." It was a poll of "whom other coaches think is an overrated/underrated coach." Those coaches simply think Williams' reputation exceeds his coaching ability - not that he isn't a good coach.

[Kedsy]

I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.

I would argue we overachieved in the post-season relative to our talent in 1988, 1990, 1991*, 1994, and 2010.


* in 1991, the team obviously had talent, but it was unproven and did not look like a national championship team during the season. Plus they had to beat UNLV. I'd say we overachieved that year.

[OldPhiKap]

I would argue we overachieved in the post-season relative to our talent in 1988, 1990, 1991*, 1994, and 2010.


* in 1991, the team obviously had talent, but it was unproven and did not look like a national championship team during the season. Plus they had to beat UNLV. I'd say we overachieved that year.

You could add 1993 to that list as well, given what we lost after 1992.

[Bluedog]

Well, perhaps an even juicier question and answer for today: "Who is perceived to be the biggest cheater in the sport?"

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19767908/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport

Calipari and Drew run away with it.

[ice-9]

The quote about Williams being overrated is based on the premise that Roy inherited two good situations in Kansas and UNC. The implication being most "good" coaches could probably do a similar job with those kinds of resources.

Coach K isn't on that list because he *didn't* inherit a good situation in Duke -- he was the guy who built Duke into a powerhouse. Therefore, the thinking behind that quote doesn't apply.

All that said I do think Roy's position as #1 is a little harsh. The job isn't just about Xs and Os; it's about recruiting and player management and Roy does those things very well. Does the general perception of his ability as an Xs and Os coach match the reality? Perhaps not, but he does deliver results and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

When I graduated from Duke I was shocked a classmate graduated magna cum laude, because I worked with her on a few Econ projects (we were both Econ majors) and she seemed consistently clueless and I basically had to do most of the heavy lifting. I mean, I thought there was a decent chance she was going to fail in those classes, but her test preparation (not to mention project partner selection) must've been pretty awesome. As her direct peer I'd say she was overrated in the intelligence department...but who cares? She's the one who graduated with the honors and as far as the world is concerned, she's brilliant. LOL! :rolleyes:

[flyingdutchdevil]

The quote about Williams being overrated is based on the premise that Roy inherited two good situations in Kansas and UNC. The implication being most "good" coaches could probably do a similar job with those kinds of resources.

Coach K isn't on that list because he *didn't* inherit a good situation in Duke -- he was the guy who built Duke into a powerhouse. Therefore, the thinking behind that quote doesn't apply.

All that said I do think Roy's position as #1 is a little harsh. The job isn't just about Xs and Os; it's about recruiting and player management and Roy does those things very well. Does the general perception of his ability as an Xs and Os coach match the reality? Perhaps not, but he does deliver results and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

When I graduated from Duke I was shocked a classmate graduated magna cum laude, because I worked with her on a few Econ projects (we were both Econ majors) and she seemed consistently clueless and I basically had to do most of the heavy lifting. I mean, I thought there was a decent chance she was going to fail in those classes, but her test preparation (not to mention project partner selection) must've been pretty awesome. As her direct peer I'd say she was overrated in the intelligence department...but who cares? She's the one who graduated with the honors and as far as the world is concerned she's brilliant. LOL! :rolleyes:

Firstly, I love that example. So true, so true. I've been in that situation dozens of times, both in undergrad and grad school.

I agree with you about Roy for the most part. Behind Calipari, is there a better recruiter out there? Also, given the right personnel, he is a good / great X&Os kind of guy. The one area where I will disagree with you is player management. Roy is good at this but not great. I think he is exceptional at managing freshman but can't manage egos that well (see Drew, Larry II). Also, his teams are frequently less than the sum of their parts, which again is a product of both his stellar recruiting and so-so Xs and Os.

[Des Esseintes]

I hate to say it but if you take 2010 out of the equation then Coach K's tournament performances in the past decade don't look so hot. I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.



Sure. If this poll was taken in 2009, Coach K would very likely have been on the list. But the 2010 season happened.


Yeah, I wasn't arguing we should throw out Roy's 2010 data point. On the contrary, it was a uniquely revealing year. 2010 was arguably the one time he has taken the court without overwhelming talent, and he inarguably failed that test. It's that failure in the lone opportunity--I know I'm stretching the word "opportunity" here--he had to demonstrate himself a guy who gets more than the sum of his parts that hurts his stock now.

Also, regarding K, if you take away ANY season in which he won a national title, his record will look far worse. Winning a title is very hard and very rare.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, I wasn't arguing we should throw out Roy's 2010 data point. On the contrary, it was a uniquely revealing year. 2010 was arguably the one time he has taken the court without overwhelming talent, and he inarguably failed that test. It's that failure in the lone opportunity--I know I'm stretching the word "opportunity" here--he had to demonstrate himself a guy who gets more than the sum of his parts that hurts his stock now.

Also, regarding K, if you take away ANY season in which he won a national title, his record will look far worse. Winning a title is very hard and very rare.

Don't want to change the subject, but isn't 2010 essentially the same as 2013 for UNC? A really highly ranked PF who hasn't been proven or tested yet somehow is expected to carry the team, a bunch of freshman who aren't fit to play ACC basketball (Wears and Henson were too thin, James needs to cut some weight and Johnson needs to add weight), an untested PG, and a log-jam at 2 positions (in 2010, it was the 4-5 positions, in 2013 it's the 2-3 positions). Roy better bust out the old play book - these are gonna be some exciting games!

[Des Esseintes]

Don't want to change the subject, but isn't 2010 essentially the same as 2013 for UNC? A really highly ranked PF who hasn't been proven or tested yet somehow is expected to carry the team, a bunch of freshman who aren't fit to play ACC basketball (Wears and Henson were too thin, James needs to cut some weight and Johnson needs to add weight), an untested PG, and a log-jam at 2 positions (in 2010, it was the 4-5 positions, in 2013 it's the 2-3 positions). Roy better bust out the old play book - these are gonna be some exciting games!

It very well may be, right? On the other hand, UNC is unlikely to get hit with the same injury buzzsaw as 2010's team, and that made a big difference in turning that season from disappointing to catastrophic. I also think the upperclassmen on this year's team are better both on the court and in the locker room than those of 2010. But all that said, I agree it will be interesting to see whether Roy can make something formidable of these pieces. They aren't bad pieces, but neither are they his prototype pieces.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It very well may be, right? On the other hand, UNC is unlikely to get hit with the same injury buzzsaw as 2010's team, and that made a big difference in turning that season from disappointing to catastrophic. I also think the upperclassmen on this year's team are better both on the court and in the locker room than those of 2010. But all that said, I agree it will be interesting to see whether Roy can make something formidable of these pieces. They aren't bad pieces, but neither are they his prototype pieces.

They have three upperclassmen in Strickland (good guy), McDonald (good guy), and Bullock (no comment). Interestingly enough, all three players are most comfortable playing the 2. Hairston and/or Tokoto - sorry, one of you is going to get absolutely screwed over.

You're completely right about the injuries, but an injury to Paige or Strickland would bring this team to the brink. They are deep in the 2-4 positions, can play small ball with the 5 if James gets injured, but what about the 1? Paige is the only true PG and if he isn't 100%, good luck UNC.

[BD80]

Well, perhaps an even juicier question and answer for today: "Who is perceived to be the biggest cheater in the sport?"

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19767908/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport

Calipari and Drew run away with it.

Now THIS is a topic where ol' roy should have scored well! Or was this a pass/fail independent study class?

How does one say in Swahili: My championship teams stayed academically eligible by registering for (rather than attending) classes in Swahili?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Well, perhaps an even juicier question and answer for today: "Who is perceived to be the biggest cheater in the sport?"

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19767908/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport

Calipari and Drew run away with it.
I have no qualms with the question, but it sure as hell is a loaded one. I mean, really, what else did they expect to hear. CBS is gonna take some heat for that one!

[DukieInKansas]

Oh, Wheat, bless your bad-comprehension-or-poor-attempt-at-trolling heart. No coach said Coach K is buddying up with World Wide Wes. That is a fabrication of a spin of a spin. The CBS writer simply noted that Coach K allowed WWW to have contact with the players on the USA team. Surely you can understand that distinction, right? That is, in NO way, comparable to a poll of actual coaches with actual quotes from said coaches that listed Williams as most overrated.

The reason that it is a poor attempt at trolling is that Wheat isn't a troll.

Although Roy may be considered "overrated" by some coaches, most institutions would be really glad to have him as a coach. Fortunately, Duke won't be one of them. ;-)

[devildeac]

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

That would be this:

Nashangaa jinsi hawa makocha bila majina "maoni" watakuwa kupokea karibu hapa wakati makala nyingine crapola imeandikwa kuelekeza nguvu katika kuajiri shady .... na kisha bila majina kocha anasema kuwa K Kocha ni buddying juu na "World Wide Wes" katika michezo ya Olimpiki kama ushahidi kuwa kocha K ni kukabiliana na mawakala wa mitaani.


Bila shaka itakuwa ni crap kupendekeza kocha K ni shady, lakini UNC mashabiki inaweza kuwa na siku shamba kuweka Kocha K na Calipari katika sanduku huo mchanga kutoka makala kama hiyo.

Hiyo ni kile sisi kupata na aina hii ya makala offseason. Wote crap. Ni tu maana ya kuchochea sufuria.



Mnakaribishwa.

[BD80]

That would be this:

Nashangaa jinsi hawa makocha bila majina "maoni" watakuwa kupokea karibu hapa wakati makala nyingine crapola imeandikwa kuelekeza nguvu katika kuajiri shady .... na kisha bila majina kocha anasema kuwa K Kocha ni buddying juu na "World Wide Wes" katika michezo ya Olimpiki kama ushahidi kuwa kocha K ni kukabiliana na mawakala wa mitaani.


Bila shaka itakuwa ni crap kupendekeza kocha K ni shady, lakini UNC mashabiki inaweza kuwa na siku shamba kuweka Kocha K na Calipari katika sanduku huo mchanga kutoka makala kama hiyo.

Hiyo ni kile sisi kupata na aina hii ya makala offseason. Wote crap. Ni tu maana ya kuchochea sufuria.



Mnakaribishwa.

There has been more communication in Swahili on this board than in all of the combined Swahili classes taken by unc basketball players - but with about the same amount of participation by unc faculty.

[Atlanta Duke]

Well, perhaps an even juicier question and answer for today: "Who is perceived to be the biggest cheater in the sport?"

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19767908/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport

Calipari and Drew run away with it.

Money quote

"Cal probably doesn't have to cheat now as much as he used to, but he's still the standard. The rest of us can't even deal in his league. He's the best.":D

[ArkieDukie]

Dadgummit! Siwezi kuamini mtu yeyote kuthubutu mashtaka Roy Williams ya kuwa overrated.

[ArkieDukie]

There has been more communication in Swahili on this board than in all of the combined Swahili classes taken by unc basketball players - but with about the same amount of participation by unc faculty.

Unaendelea juu ya sakafu laughing punda wangu off!

[ArkieDukie]

Mimi kwa kweli, kwa kweli matumaini kwamba Crazies Cameron kujifunza alimuua ya chants kwa Kiswahili kwa ajili ya mchezo UNC-Duke. Hiyo itakuwa classic. Kama kusimamia na kufanya kazi katika rejea na makala kuhusu Roy Williams kuwa overrated, hata bora.

[DukieInKansas]

Mimi kwa kweli, kwa kweli matumaini kwamba Crazies Cameron kujifunza alimuua ya chants kwa Kiswahili kwa ajili ya mchezo UNC-Duke. Hiyo itakuwa classic. Kama kusimamia na kufanya kazi katika rejea na makala kuhusu Roy Williams kuwa overrated, hata bora.

This would be great. It reminds me of the Duke v Clemson soccer game one year. Clemson was known as the Nigerian Express due to the number of Nigerians on their team. The goalie was swearing through out the game and a professor was standing behind the goal and translating for us. Cracked me up!

[ArkieDukie]

This would be great. It reminds me of the Duke v Clemson soccer game one year. Clemson was known as the Nigerian Express due to the number of Nigerians on their team. The goalie was swearing through out the game and a professor was standing behind the goal and translating for us. Cracked me up!

Here's a start:
Mimi nina kipofu, mimi nina viziwi, mimi unataka kuwa ref!

and, even more importantly...

Kwenda kuzimu, Carolina, kwenda kuzimu!

[DukieInKansas]

Here's a start:
Mimi nina kipofu, mimi nina viziwi, mimi unataka kuwa ref!

and, even more importantly...

Kwenda kuzimu, Carolina, kwenda kuzimu!

The first line doesn't translate back to English quite right. The second line needed no translation!

[oldnavy]

The article on the front page about K's response to a reporters question regarding if the USA team even needed coaching, is along the same line as this thread. In other words, is K even needed since he has the best talent.

I think his sarcastic reply tells us all that we need know about how he feels about the question "that good/great players don't really need coaching". They need coaching, just like lesser talented players would. They need to be brought together as a unit, and most of it might be psychological vs. X's and O's, but they need coaching.

So... is Roy overrated... he has won a lot of games with great talent.... he has also struggled to adjust when his talent isn't so great... I think this is a GREAT question for debate that will NEVER be resolved. Just another log on the fire of the Duke UNC rivalry, the greatest in college sports!! Love it! Fun to argue....!

As far as Roy being a GREAT recruiter... I wonder how well he could recruit at Harvard, or at Iowa, or any other Non Blue Blood school. He does score a lot of talent for UNC, but didn't Matt Doherty bring in some really great talent as well at UNC? This question will probably never be answered, but it will always loom for those who want to find fault with Roy and his legacy...

[BD80]

... As far as Roy being a GREAT recruiter... I wonder how well he could recruit at Harvard, or at Iowa, or any other Non Blue Blood school. He does score a lot of talent for UNC, but didn't Matt Doherty bring in some really great talent as well at UNC? This question will probably never be answered, but it will always loom for those who want to find fault with Roy and his legacy...

But we must concede that ol' roy is a better coach than Doherty.

[ArkieDukie]

The article on the front page about K's response to a reporters question regarding if the USA team even needed coaching, is along the same line as this thread. In other words, is K even needed since he has the best talent.

I think his sarcastic reply tells us all that we need know about how he feels about the question "that good/great players don't really need coaching". They need coaching, just like lesser talented players would. They need to be brought together as a unit, and most of it might be psychological vs. X's and O's, but they need coaching.

So... is Roy overrated... he has won a lot of games with great talent.... he has also struggled to adjust when his talent isn't so great... I think this is a GREAT question for debate that will NEVER be resolved. Just another log on the fire of the Duke UNC rivalry, the greatest in college sports!! Love it! Fun to argue....!

As far as Roy being a GREAT recruiter... I wonder how well he could recruit at Harvard, or at Iowa, or any other Non Blue Blood school. He does score a lot of talent for UNC, but didn't Matt Doherty bring in some really great talent as well at UNC? This question will probably never be answered, but it will always loom for those who want to find fault with Roy and his legacy...

Excellent post, oldnavy! This is among the most compelling counter-arguments to "Yeah, Roy wins; look at all the talent he has." It does take a certain amount of coaching skill to have a winning team with a group of individually talented players. Which he does, most of the time. Could he do better? Yeah - but most coaches could. Coach K would probably put himself in the group that could do better. Heckle him though we do, I think we all would admit that Roy's a better coach than Matt Doherty or Rick Barnes.

Coach K's answer to the reporter was classic. I read on ESPN that the question was asked by an American journalist. Wonder if that person is a UNC alum? Seriously, what a mean-spirited question.

[oldnavy]

Excellent post, oldnavy! This is among the most compelling counter-arguments to "Yeah, Roy wins; look at all the talent he has." It does take a certain amount of coaching skill to have a winning team with a group of individually talented players. Which he does, most of the time. Could he do better? Yeah - but most coaches could. Coach K would probably put himself in the group that could do better. Heckle him though we do, I think we all would admit that Roy's a better coach than Matt Doherty or Rick Barnes.

Coach K's answer to the reporter was classic. I read on ESPN that the question was asked by an American journalist. Wonder if that person is a UNC alum? Seriously, what a mean-spirited question.

I guess Coach K learned a little about how to handle reporters from Coach Knight as well. You are right, it was a very dumb question to ask the person himself. It would not be a very good question for any one, but to ask the coach of a team if he or she is needed on that team... I mean what kind of answer would you truely expect?

The idiot reporter must not be old enough to remember the US teams before K took over, and how they did basically do just that, role the ball out... what did we end up with the bronze??

I enjoyed the comments by both Collins and Rivers about how Coach K is about the team and how he gets everyone to buy into a role that will help the team win. And then Coach K's comments about how no one balked at doing whatever he asked of them. I think that the NBA players must have a lot of respect for Coach... lot's of egos that were put on hold for these games and a great effort against a really good Spanish team.

[Wander]

There's another thread on this already, but below is a link to an article with some comments from the same group of anonymous coaches on Coach K. The apparent difference in the level of respect college basketball coaches have for K vs Roy is amazing, and something I didn't really realize before.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19788727/critical-coaches-how-much-is-coach-k-helped-by-team-usa

[oldnavy]

There's another thread on this already, but below is a link to an article with some comments from the same group of anonymous coaches on Coach K. The apparent difference in the level of respect college basketball coaches have for K vs Roy is amazing, and something I didn't really realize before.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19788727/critical-coaches-how-much-is-coach-k-helped-by-team-usa

Well we know that Izzo got pretty upset with Roy over the comment regarding... Delvon Roe's recruitment. So maybe there are more incidences like this one that have gone unpublished.... who knows.

Roy is a polorizing figure for sure. With his success and sometimes "foot in mouth" disease, it is no wonder that he may have hacked off some coaches along the way, and some are just probably jealous of his success at two really big time schools.... thinking maybe he didn't have to pay his dues???

[Olympic Fan]

There's another thread on this already, but below is a link to an article with some comments from the same group of anonymous coaches on Coach K. The apparent difference in the level of respect college basketball coaches have for K vs Roy is amazing, and something I didn't really realize before.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19788727/critical-coaches-how-much-is-coach-k-helped-by-team-usa

I had to laugh ... anybody else remember the debate on this board back in 2005 about how taking the Olympic job would hurt K's recruiting. Hey, we didn't get Kenny Boynton because he was coaching at the Olympics!!!

[hudlow]

According to the other thread about UNC's academics and athletes, this idea that ol' Roy is overrated might hold more water than originally thought.... We don't know how many games he won with academically ineligible players on the court...

But we do know there's a good possibility it happened.

What if he had to play the cards that were dealt to him like most other coaches do....?

[OldPhiKap]

According to the other thread about UNC's academics and athletes, this idea that ol' Roy is overrated might hold more water than originally thought.... We don't know how many games he won with academically ineligible players on the court...

But we do know there's a good possibility it happened.

What if he had to play the cards that were dealt to him like most other coaches do....?

How does an athletic advisor direct athletes to crib courses for years, without the head coach knowing?

That's almost as implausible as a ticket office giving ... er, nevermind.

[oldnavy]

How does an athletic advisor direct athletes to crib courses for years, without the head coach knowing?

That's almost as implausible as a ticket office giving ... er, nevermind.

I think, no I am sure you really already know the answer... there really are only two possibilities. He knew and looked the other way, or he didn't know and is a stupid man.... Roy is a lot of things, but he is not a stupid man.

My OPINION, is of course he knew, but he was smart enough to maintain plausable deniability. In otherwords, he knew, but he didn't KNOW if you know what I mean!

[OldPhiKap]

I think, no I am sure you really already know the answer... there really are only two possibilities. He knew and looked the other way, or he didn't know and is a stupid man.... Roy is a lot of things, but he is not a stupid man.

My OPINION, is of course he knew, but he was smart enough to maintain plausable deniability. In otherwords, he knew, but he didn't KNOW if you know what I mean!

A nudge is as good as a wink to a blind man.

Say no more.

[dcdevil2009]

How does an athletic advisor direct athletes to crib courses for years, without the head coach knowing?

That's almost as implausible as a ticket office giving ... er, nevermind.

I'm sure Roy knew that they were taking those classes. It would be pretty absurd for the head coach not to have an idea of his players' schedules, especially in basketball where there are only about 48 classes total on a given semester (12 players * 4 classes). Whether he knew they were no show/no work classes is a different matter. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some idea that they were low work courses, but would be more surprised if he knew they was actually no work involved. In my time at Duke, I took a few classes that were notoriously easy, and often included athletes -- mostly athletes and seniors due to higher registration priority. Attendance wasn't taken or necessary to do well, but the athletes were there except when they in town. In my opinion, 50-60% of the people in those classes chose them because of how easy they were supposed to be, both athletes and non-athletes. Now I'm sure Coach K and Roof/Cutcliffe (and other sports' coaches) knew what classes their players were in, and that that the athletic department made a few courses off limits because of scheduling conflicts. However, I don't think it means the coaching staffs knew how easy or how little time commitment some of those courses were. Maybe they did, and maybe they did at UNC (there, the advisors certainly did, so it's more likely the coaches knew), but being head coach shouldn't make you a baby sitter for how much work your players' classes take.

[BD80]

I'm sure Roy knew that they were taking those classes. It would be pretty absurd for the head coach not to have an idea of his players' schedules, especially in basketball where there are only about 48 classes total on a given semester (12 players * 4 classes). Whether he knew they were no show/no work classes is a different matter. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some idea that they were low work courses, but would be more surprised if he knew they was actually no work involved. In my time at Duke, I took a few classes that were notoriously easy, and often included athletes -- mostly athletes and seniors due to higher registration priority. Attendance wasn't taken or necessary to do well, but the athletes were there except when they in town. In my opinion, 50-60% of the people in those classes chose them because of how easy they were supposed to be, both athletes and non-athletes. Now I'm sure Coach K and Roof/Cutcliffe (and other sports' coaches) knew what classes their players were in, and that that the athletic department made a few courses off limits because of scheduling conflicts. However, I don't think it means the coaching staffs knew how easy or how little time commitment some of those courses were. Maybe they did, and maybe they did at UNC (there, the advisors certainly did, so it's more likely the coaches knew), but being head coach shouldn't make you a baby sitter for how much work your players' classes take.

ol' roy is the CEO of a multi-million dollar enterprise. How many academic advisors are on staff that "supervise" the basketball teams' academic performance and eligibility? Given the financial stakes of each win with respect to basketball income (each win can mean a higher seed and another NCAA tourney win = $) it would be fiscal foolishness NOT to at least know the details of EACH class of EACH player - a whopping 48 classes IF no players are taking the same class. This would be particularly true of academically "at risk" players - such as the one indicated by the "test" transcript. A player in danger of losing eligibility would deserve special attention, and his courses would deserve extra scrutiny. Fortunately for ol' roy, that system was already in place - and the academic advisors to the athletic department knew what to do. They'd been doing it for years. Just because ol' roy may not have specifically known doesn't make him less culpable. He gets the big bucks because he IS responsible.

BS aside. Is there ANY chance that an athlete that NEEDS a good grade in a summer class to stay eligible and ends up in a "no-show" class and the athletic department didn't know?

[Kfanarmy]

I always figured if I had Earnhardt Jr.'s car and backing that I could wreck or finish back in the pack as good as he could.... I've always believed seeing his father die on the track has had an impact on his agressiveness...he was a star in spring a was very good early. I'm not sure that's happened to many college BBall coaches.

[Kfanarmy]

According to the other thread about UNC's academics and athletes, this idea that ol' Roy is overrated might hold more water than originally thought.... We don't know how many games he won with academically ineligible players on the court...

But we do know there's a good possibility it happened

What if he had to play the cards that were dealt to him like most other coaches do....? Like an awful lot of points made in this thread, this could support both the overrated and great coach views...after all, can't you also say he reached all those final fours and elite eights and piled up a great record with players who were so dull mentally that they had to be hearded into non classes in order to maintain eligibility?

[ThePublisher]

Overrated and I think soon to retire. That is before the investigation hits bball too hard.
Good thing construction on his retirement home is nearly finished.

[oldnavy]

Overrated and I think soon to retire. That is before the investigation hits bball too hard.
Good thing construction on his retirement home is nearly finished.

I have thought this as well. At what point does Ol Roy, say enough and retire back into the mountains. He has shown that he has a level of contempt for UNC fans by his comments to the media and by his reactions to callers on his radio show. He has some health problems. He has to have banked enough money by now to be very comfortable finacially.

I do wonder if this may be the last straw for him. I think that it is going to get hot for UNC basketball during this investigation and we all know that Roy isn one to be paient and take a lot of questions about how he does things. He can't be having a lot of fun right now.

I think he has to be thinking about it, but timing might be an issue. He probably 'wants' to go out on a high note, like most folks.... now is not a great time to walk away.

[CDu]

I do wonder if this may be the last straw for him. I think that it is going to get hot for UNC basketball during this investigation and we all know that Roy isn one to be paient and take a lot of questions about how he does things. He can't be having a lot of fun right now.

Assuming anyone actually investigates this issue in any more detail. And assuming anyone actually pushes things over to the basketball side. At the pace things are going, I'm not convinced those bullets will ever be fired.

[ThePublisher]

Assuming anyone actually investigates this issue in any more detail. And assuming anyone actually pushes things over to the basketball side. At the pace things are going, I'm not convinced those bullets will ever be fired.

I agree that the recently hired, and no doubt biased, groups looking into this may "miss" something to do with bball.
However, I have supreme confidence that State fans will uncover the truth. They are an angry bunch.

[OldPhiKap]

I agree that the recently hired, and no doubt biased, groups looking into this may "miss" something to do with bball.
However, I have supreme confidence that State fans will uncover the truth. They are an angry bunch.

I don't know if they have a journalism school, but the Wolfpack faithful are doing a better job digging here than the Carolina-educated writers. Cudos.

[OldPhiKap]

Seemed appropriate to resurrect this thread.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Seemed appropriate to resurrect this thread.
Bet he gets a lot of very quick handshakes from opposing coaches this year.

[Henderson]

Interesting quote from Marcus Paige on Ol' Roy:

"I've read different things that have come out of the report that have called him out or taken shots at him; it's not entirely fair to him," Paige said. "He's had it just as probably rough as anyone because when you are the face of the basketball team of North Carolina, regardless of what goes on, you're going to get a lot of backlash when something negative arises and it's on him. I think our team provides him some joy and he uses us as a release for some of the negative things that have been going on."*

It's not good for a coach to have a player feeling sorry for him, patronizing him, and saying the criticism of him "is not entirely fair." (emphasis added).

I can't think of an example where a leader succeeded because people felt sorry for him. Yet that's where Roy is. Maybe it'll work as a motivational tool. Like he has cancer or lost his family in a plane crash. But I don't think any leader in any endeavor would want to have to motivate a team with personal sympathy for himself.

Oh, and he doesn't have cancer, and his family wasn't killed in a plane crash. He just put his fingers in his ears while his team cheated academically. Which makes the whole, "Let's feel sorry for Roy and win one for the Gipper" thing pretty thin.

*Full article here:http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11758171/roy-williams-addresses-north-carolina-academic-fraud-report

[CameronBlue]

Bet he gets a lot of very quick handshakes from opposing coaches this year.

Or maybe a "friendly" jab to the kidneys

[CameronBornAndBred]

Bet he gets a lot of very quick handshakes from opposing coaches this year.
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake

[OldPhiKap]

Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake
Whisper under breath "cheater"...shake shake

Jay Bilas just tweeted that Monday night, Kansas is celebrating the 60th year of Allen Fieldhouse. Past coaches, i cuing Roy, will attend. Wonder what the reception for him will be.

[BD80]

Bet he gets a lot of very quick handshakes from opposing coaches this year.

The smart opposing coaches will count their fingers afterward, no matter how brief the handshake with ol' roy.

[devildeac]

Jay Bilas just tweeted that Monday night, Kansas is celebrating the 60th year of Allen Fieldhouse. Past coaches, i cuing Roy, will attend. Wonder what the reception for him will be.

Rock.
Chalk.
Cheat-hawk
?????