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Newton_14
08-05-2012, 08:48 PM
5:15 PM Eastern, Monday Aug 6th. Should be another tight game, unless Argentina decides to tank it. Have to believe our guys will shoot it better than they did against Marty and crew. It will be interesting to see how the guys bounce back from being tested.

BD80
08-05-2012, 10:40 PM
5:15 PM Eastern, Monday Aug 6th. Should be another tight game, unless Argentina decides to tank it. Have to believe our guys will shoot it better than they did against Marty and crew. It will be interesting to see how the guys bounce back from being tested.

The tanking will take place in Brazil v Spain, the loser avoids the US until the finals. I hear both teams are recruiting Chinese badmitten players ...

Newton_14
08-05-2012, 10:44 PM
The tanking will take place in Brazil v Spain, the loser avoids the US until the finals. I hear both teams are recruiting Chinese badmitten players ...

Well played sir! That will be something to see. Both teams trying their darndest to win by losing. Will the committee care? I guess you can tank a basketball game much easier than badmitten. Starting with "resting" the star players.

ice-9
08-06-2012, 07:08 AM
Guys, it's B-A-D-M-I-N-T-O-N.

And yeah, think the FIBA format sucks!

A tournament should never be organized in such a way where losing a game on purpose is strategically beneficial to winning the whole thing.

Bluedog
08-06-2012, 10:05 AM
Is the FIBA tiebreaker point differential or head-to-head for tied teams? Chris Sheridan seems to think it's point differential, meaning Australia beating Russia on a buzzer beater is huge and Spain-Brazil is a must win to avoid USA. However, the first comment corrects Sheridan, saying on Fiba.com, it indicates it is head-to-head results, meaning Australia will still finish fourth in the group and have USA in the first round (assuming USA comes in first), while Spain/Brazil will be "battling" for second in the group (i.e. actually trying to lose, so they come in third in their pool group and are in the opposite half of the U.S.). Anybody know for sure? I think head-to-head makes a lot more sense and would much rather face Australia than either Brazil or Spain. Brazil, honestly, scares me the most - they showed that they can compete with the U.S. and I think match up the best.

http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2012/08/05/top-five-olympic-basketball-questions/

Bluedog
08-06-2012, 10:30 AM
Found it...Chris Sheridan fail. Doesn't he get paid for this stuff? ;) Tiebreaker is head to head, so Australia is fourth since they lost to both Brazil and Spain.

http://www.fiba.com/downloads/event/eng/2012/oly/Olympic-Draw-Press-Kit.pdf?2


If two teams have equal classification points, the result(s) of the game(s) between those teams will determine the standings (head to head).
If there are more than two teams with equal classification points, the classification points of the game(s) between the tied teams will be used to determine the standings (head to head).
If there are still teams tied after the previous procedure, the goal average (points scored divided by points against) of the games between the tied teams will be used to determine the standings.
If there are still teams tied after the previous procedure, the standings will be determined using the goal average of all the games played in the group of tied teams.

I guess I should have trusted the commenter, who quoted the above.

BD80
08-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Guys, it's B-A-D-M-I-N-T-O-N. ...


Not the way I play. Picture Dr. Strangelove's battles with his strange-gloved hand. Bad-mitten.

ChillinDuke
08-06-2012, 12:28 PM
Found it...Chris Sheridan fail. Doesn't he get paid for this stuff? ;) Tiebreaker is head to head, so Australia is fourth since they lost to both Brazil and Spain.

If two teams have equal classification points, the result(s) of the game(s) between those teams will determine the standings (head to head).
If there are more than two teams with equal classification points, the classification points of the game(s) between the tied teams will be used to determine the standings (head to head).
If there are still teams tied after the previous procedure, the goal average (points scored divided by points against) of the games between the tied teams will be used to determine the standings.
If there are still teams tied after the previous procedure, the standings will be determined using the goal average of all the games played in the group of tied teams.



I guess I should have trusted the commenter, who quoted the above.


And if no clear winner emerges from all of this, a two-man sack race will be held on consecutive Sundays until a champion can be crowned.

- Chillin

NSDukeFan
08-06-2012, 12:41 PM
And if no clear winner emerges from all of this, a two-man sack race will be held on consecutive Sundays until a champion can be crowned.

- Chillin

Is the sack that is used a huge bad mitten?

Billy Dat
08-06-2012, 12:52 PM
A really interesting development in the crucial final 5 minutes of the Lithuania game was the crunch-time line-up:

Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Kobe, Chris Paul and Deron Williams

I know that's 6 players, but Kobe/Paul/Williams were basically rotating with the other 3 playing as a front line. K certainly isn't afraid to go small.

roywhite
08-06-2012, 01:08 PM
A really interesting development in the crucial final 5 minutes of the Lithuania game was the crunch-time line-up:

Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Kobe, Chris Paul and Deron Williams
I know that's 6 players, but Kobe/Paul/Williams were basically rotating with the other 3 playing as a front line. K certainly isn't afraid to go small.


As I watched the game, wasn't pleased with what Deron Williams was giving the team that day.

Checking the box score, he was "two-fer" in nearly every area:
2-6 from 2-pt (his usually reliable floater missed a few times)
2-6 from 3-pt
2-4 on FT
2 assists
2 turnovers

Perhaps just a bit off that day; certainly has size and physicality at the PG position, which seems esp. important in international play

Billy Dat
08-06-2012, 01:58 PM
Perhaps just a bit off that day; certainly has size and physicality at the PG position, which seems esp. important in international play

I found it interesting that save for Durant, the 2010 Worlds MVP, everyone else getting crunch time minutes was a 2008 Olympics Gold Medal Winner. Kobe hadn't played well to that point...but K always values the guys who have delivered for him in the past. Granted, the 2010 team won gold, too, in what many consider to be a tougher tournament, but you just sense that K goes with the guys he knows better, and that would be the '08 guys. It will be interesting to see if that is a recurring theme.

UrinalCake
08-06-2012, 02:06 PM
A tournament should never be organized in such a way where losing a game on purpose is strategically beneficial to winning the whole thing.

I agree, though I don't know of a good solution other than eliminating the round robin entirely and going straight to the elimination round. Maybe some kind of double-elimination tournament, but even then there could theoretically be a scenario where it's better to lose.

NSDukeFan
08-06-2012, 05:42 PM
Good decision by Iguodala to give up the wide open 3 to give Durant a contested one to end the first quarter. Count it from the NBA's top scorer.

phaedrus
08-06-2012, 06:03 PM
Thoughts on the first half for those who can't watch?

Starter
08-06-2012, 06:10 PM
Thoughts on the first half for those who can't watch?

The next guy the United States team guards today will be the first.

Ginobili scored a bunch of points and fell down a whole lot, so pretty typical game for him.

porkpa
08-06-2012, 06:13 PM
I just don't get it. Fifteen of the best players in the world, coached by the man many consider to be the best coach in the world - playing like a bunch of run and gun guys on a playground in New York. Team USA is bigger, stronger and deeper than this Argentinian team. Yet they are playing like a bunch of wussies relying far too much on the three point shot. Despite it, their offense, although pretty much undisciplined, hasn't been that bad. Their defense borders on non existent. What is happening?

sagegrouse
08-06-2012, 06:19 PM
I agree, though I don't know of a good solution other than eliminating the round robin entirely and going straight to the elimination round. Maybe some kind of double-elimination tournament, but even then there could theoretically be a scenario where it's better to lose.

The round robin is really cool from the standpoint of the players and fans. Every team gets five games. One can imagine a one-and-done system (kinda like track and field) where one makes only the briefest appearance.

There are possible solutions. One would be to make the quartfinal matchups somewhat random, to avoid losing to "schedule" your preferred opponent. The other would be to make the system more complicated: 16 teams, four groups, 12 advance, four receive byes, semiquartefinal matchups (round of 12) would be variable (points of group winners, random selections, etc.).

Question is, is throwing a game a problem in basketball at the Olympics?

Spain didn't throw the round-robin game against the US, but it clearly hid the defense and offense schemes it intended to use in the final. Is this bad?

sage

Starter
08-06-2012, 06:25 PM
The United States has started to take over by having LeBron James destroy everyone. Four fouls on Chandler, interesting to see what kind of lineup Krzyzewski goes with here.

Jderf
08-06-2012, 06:37 PM
The United States has started to take over by having LeBron James destroy everyone. Four fouls on Chandler, interesting to see what kind of lineup Krzyzewski goes with here.

Interesting spelling of Kevin Durant :p

Starter
08-06-2012, 06:40 PM
Interesting spelling of Kevin Durant :p

Haha, well, LeBron scored like the first seven points of the half. Durant took it from there, especially after a stiff wind knocked over Ginobili and they gave LBJ a fourth foul. KD is looking like he did in the 2010 World Championships, when he averaged like 23 and nobody else was in double digits.

Bluedog
08-06-2012, 06:49 PM
Melo got nailed in the place it hurts by some dude, no call. Westbrook has an emphatic dunk, but definitely no hanging on rim and gets called for T? I have no sound, so might have missed it, but looked bizarre. No idea what could have constituted a technical there.

Jderf
08-06-2012, 06:56 PM
Haha, well, LeBron scored like the first seven points of the half. Durant took it from there, especially after a stiff wind knocked over Ginobili and they gave LBJ a fourth foul. KD is looking like he did in the 2010 World Championships, when he averaged like 23 and nobody else was in double digits.

Yeah, for some reason I'm having trouble remembering anything that happened before that 30-footer.


Melo got nailed in the place it hurts by some dude, no call. Westbrook has an emphatic dunk, but definitely no hanging on rim and gets called for T? I have no sound, so might have missed it, but looked bizarre. No idea what could have constituted a technical there.

It sounded bizarre, too.

MattC09
08-06-2012, 06:57 PM
It often feels like the US is called by a different rulebook from other teams in FIBA ball. I know it isn't, but some of the calls/no calls in this game make you wonder what the refs are thinking. We've had several drives that were obvious fould and got nothing. Not to mention the Carmelo getting "Christ Paul'd"...

The third quarter was very good from the US.

devildeac
08-06-2012, 07:14 PM
Melo got nailed in the place it hurts by some dude, no call. Westbrook has an emphatic dunk, but definitely no hanging on rim and gets called for T? I have no sound, so might have missed it, but looked bizarre. No idea what could have constituted a technical there.

Daniel Ewing was in the crowd and K is koaching.

DukeFanSince1990
08-06-2012, 07:26 PM
No shot in the junk shall go unanswered. Way to beat them on the scoreboard and highlight reel.

Billy Dat
08-06-2012, 09:01 PM
No shot in the junk shall go unanswered. Way to beat them on the scoreboard and highlight reel.

Ah, but Kobe attempted to answer it, and who seems to be the original instigator but, who else, CP3. I give you NY Post scribe Frank Isola's twitter recap of the post game:

Frank Isola ‏@FisolaNYDN
-Kobe Bryant, who speaks Spanish and Italian, told Facundo Campazzo he was "wrong" for what he did to Carmelo
-Campazzo apologized to Kobe but not to Melo because "Chris Paul didn't apologize to me." Campazzo accused Paul of punching him in 1st half
-Carmelo joked that he "just fell down" but later told me "it was a cheap shot but we move on." Hope he dosen't take it out on poor Prigioni
-Carmelo isn't the only one. The entire Canadian soccer team was kicked in the groin by the ref.

Newton_14
08-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Ah, but Kobe attempted to answer it, and who seems to be the original instigator but, who else, CP3. I give you NY Post scribe Frank Isola's twitter recap of the post game:

Frank Isola ‏@FisolaNYDN
-Kobe Bryant, who speaks Spanish and Italian, told Facundo Campazzo he was "wrong" for what he did to Carmelo
-Campazzo apologized to Kobe but not to Melo because "Chris Paul didn't apologize to me." Campazzo accused Paul of punching him in 1st half
-Carmelo joked that he "just fell down" but later told me "it was a cheap shot but we move on." Hope he dosen't take it out on poor Prigioni
-Carmelo isn't the only one. The entire Canadian soccer team was kicked in the groin by the ref.

I thought that final 3 from Harden was another response to the Melo punch. Normally a K coached team just lets the shot clock expire in an end game situation like that in a blowout. Harden instead drains the 3.

I was only able to listen to the radio broadcast, but obviously the defense picked up in the 2nd half. The first half defense was brutal. Sounded like the refs were as well. For those that saw it on TV, how bad was the Lebron foul on Ginobili right at the first half buzzer? The radio announcer made it sound like a flop. Any thoughts on that foul?

Atlanta Duke
08-06-2012, 09:21 PM
Ah, but Kobe attempted to answer it, and who seems to be the original instigator but, who else, CP3.

CP3 issues a post-game non-denial denial

Paul, commenting on the accusation that he had punched a rival player, said: “Which time? We got tangled up a thousand times.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/sports/olympics/united-states-mens-basketball-team-beats-argentina.html?ref=sports

Starter
08-06-2012, 09:38 PM
I refuse to believe it. Chris Paul would never punch anyone in the crotch.

NSDukeFan
08-06-2012, 09:43 PM
I thought that final 3 from Harden was another response to the Melo punch. Normally a K coached team just lets the shot clock expire in an end game situation like that in a blowout. Harden instead drains the 3.

I was only able to listen to the radio broadcast, but obviously the defense picked up in the 2nd half. The first half defense was brutal. Sounded like the refs were as well. For those that saw it on TV, how bad was the Lebron foul on Ginobili right at the first half buzzer? The radio announcer made it sound like a flop. Any thoughts on that foul?

I didn't think that final call of the half on LeBron was bad, just unfortunate. LeBron kind of slipped(like many players seemed to) and fell into the path of where Ginobili was going. He may have embellished a bit but I thought there were a bunch of far worse calls or no calls against the US.

ThePublisher
08-06-2012, 09:45 PM
So the greatest offensive basketball performance in the history of the world led to a 6 quarter hangover. But guess who is bizack!?

In the 3rd and 4th today we played much, much better D and shot at a much higher clip from 3. Its clear that K's plan w/ this team is to pile on the 3s. And why not with guys like KD and Melo who are practically automatic.

BD80
08-06-2012, 10:18 PM
... Spain didn't throw the round-robin game against the US, but it clearly hid the defense and offense schemes it intended to use in the final. Is this bad?

sage

Ha! Coach K is even smarter! His team revealed NO defensive schemes at all!

97 points in a 40 minute game - I don't think Coach K was pleased

UrinalCake
08-06-2012, 11:06 PM
I didn't get to watch the game, only read some recaps, but does anyone else feel like we're (gasp!) too reliant on the three? It seems like teams play us tight when they're not falling and we only pull away when we're hitting from the outside.

NashvilleDevil
08-06-2012, 11:18 PM
I didn't get to watch the game, only read some recaps, but does anyone else feel like we're (gasp!) too reliant on the three? It seems like teams play us tight when they're not falling and we only pull away when we're hitting from the outside.

Or when LeBron decides to take over. Once he started going strong to the hoop at the beginning of the 3rd it seemed to energize the rest of the guys. That is when Durant put on his show. I got some looks at the gym watching the game and getting vocal when Durant would rise and fire.

darthur
08-06-2012, 11:26 PM
I didn't get to watch the game, only read some recaps, but does anyone else feel like we're (gasp!) too reliant on the three? It seems like teams play us tight when they're not falling and we only pull away when we're hitting from the outside.

When you are playing against a more talented team, you want to make them roll the dice. So teams are always going to pack the inside against the United States and dare them to shoot outside shots. When the US chooses its team, it can try to force the issue with pure inside scoring, or it can choose players who excel at taking the shots they are given. We went with it, which seems like a fine call to me. Is it the perfect strategy for an elimination tournament? No, but not sure any of the other choices are better.

tele
08-07-2012, 12:49 AM
I thought that final 3 from Harden was another response to the Melo punch. Normally a K coached team just lets the shot clock expire in an end game situation like that in a blowout. Harden instead drains the 3.

I was only able to listen to the radio broadcast, but obviously the defense picked up in the 2nd half. The first half defense was brutal. Sounded like the refs were as well. For those that saw it on TV, how bad was the Lebron foul on Ginobili right at the first half buzzer? The radio announcer made it sound like a flop. Any thoughts on that foul?

The foul call was the first time I've seen a player called for a foul for having his hand stepped on. I've seen calls for getting your foot stepped on before, James was sort of backpedaling/ turning and slipped down to the floor just as Gino dribbled past him, in mid court between the cirlcles. Gino thoughtfully stepped on james hand wrist and when James yanked it away he got the foul call on him. There was no other contact that I could see. The argies seem to like to play into contact, the Paul non punch was more cp3 putting his arm straight out into the argie players stomach and the argie player bending over and moving into pauls arm, there was no swing or even forward motion by paul, at least not that you'd notice.

g-money
08-07-2012, 01:02 AM
I thought that final 3 from Harden was another response to the Melo punch. Normally a K coached team just lets the shot clock expire in an end game situation like that in a blowout. Harden instead drains the 3.

Yeah, that was probably a bit of a response to the dirty play by Argentina. But to the credit of Team USA and Coach K, there was nothing else that was unsportsmanike in the way the US played after the punch, at least as far as I could tell.

Two other thoughts on this subject:
- I would've loved to have been within earshot when Coach K and Scola exchanged words after the Melo punch. I'm not sure how much of that conversation was lost in translation, but I'm guessing that Coach K told Scola to 'stick it where the sun don't shine', to put it nicely.
- It would be great to see these teams play again in the semis. I think that play alone would give team USA enough motivation to destroy them.

-bdbd
08-07-2012, 01:13 AM
The foul call was the first time I've seen a player called for a foul for having his hand stepped on. I've seen calls for getting your foot stepped on before, James was sort of backpedaling/ turning and slipped down to the floor just as Gino dribbled past him, in mid court between the cirlcles. Gino thoughtfully stepped on james hand wrist and when James yanked it away he got the foul call on him. There was no other contact that I could see. The argies seem to like to play into contact, the Paul non punch was more cp3 putting his arm straight out into the argie players stomach and the argie player bending over and moving into pauls arm, there was no swing or even forward motion by paul, at least not that you'd notice.

They showed a replay a couple times later on in the telecast. It looked like CP reached out to touch the guys chest/stomach, as defenders often do on threes, maybe to distract a shooter. It didn't really look all that forceful. But the shooter fell back afterward and doubled over, ignored by CP and the others running by. The Argentinians sure thought something happened, with one of their bigger players getting right in K's grill right after that while shouting towards the US bench (K was looking up at him from 6" away and calmingly saying something like "not intentional..." Another Arg player pulled the big man away.


I didn't think that final call of the half on LeBron was bad, just unfortunate. LeBron kind of slipped(like many players seemed to) and fell into the path of where Ginobili was going. He may have embellished a bit but I thought there were a bunch of far worse calls or no calls against the US.
I didn't get the impression the announcers were too enamered of the referring in general. Looked like "Carolina refs" to me - all close calls going to the opposition...
The TV cut to K after the technical call, where the replay clearly showed the US player dunking over the big Argentine, BUT NOT SAYING ANYTHING - just giving him an intense glare as the American ran back by him up the court. K was shouting at the ref who called the T, and if I could read lips, saying "What was the call?!" ...then pointing with two fingers at his own eyes as if to say "he just looked at him." Terrible call. One of many.


I refuse to believe it. Chris Paul would never punch anyone in the crotch.
Yeah, he usually covers them up MUCH better!


Ah, but Kobe attempted to answer it, and who seems to be the original instigator but, who else, CP3. I give you NY Post scribe Frank Isola's twitter recap of the post game:

Frank Isola ‏@FisolaNYDN
-Kobe Bryant, who speaks Spanish and Italian, told Facundo Campazzo he was "wrong" for what he did to Carmelo
-Campazzo apologized to Kobe but not to Melo because "Chris Paul didn't apologize to me." Campazzo accused Paul of punching him in 1st half
-Carmelo joked that he "just fell down" but later told me "it was a cheap shot but we move on." Hope he dosen't take it out on poor Prigioni
-Carmelo isn't the only one. The entire Canadian soccer team was kicked in the groin by the ref.

Campazzo is my new favorite BB villain. What a cheapshot against a star player, and could have seriously imjured the dude. And a classless, jerk response when Kobe calls him on it. If you think CP did your guy dirt, then go after CP. :rolleyes:

Duke71
08-07-2012, 02:30 AM
I didn't get to watch the game, only read some recaps, but does anyone else feel like we're (gasp!) too reliant on the three? It seems like teams play us tight when they're not falling and we only pull away when we're hitting from the outside.

Yo UrinalPaddy:


You raise an interesting point, but for once I think it is a pleasant turn of events for USA to have so many gifted long-distance shooters who are on the seriously TALL side. This presents match-up and "where's my GPS because I'm guarding dudes in unfamiliar territory" problems for the opponents' bigs. For so many recent Olympics we had a shortage of talented 3-point shooters and we payed a price for it, at times.


The main Achilles Heel I see in this team is its occasional default tendency to get into a selfish, NBA mode of one-on-one, "I be da man" default rhythm of play. THAT detracts from their athletic fast-breaking and lights-out shooting advantages. Sure, sometimes the threes won't be dropping for some of the players in a particular game, but unlike the typical poll-leading college team this team has a deep, deep bench....and unlike what Coach K does with our perennial Duke squads, he isn't hesitant to go deep into his bench throughout the game. So far, this seems to be working well.

licc85
08-07-2012, 04:11 AM
The main Achilles Heel I see in this team is its occasional default tendency to get into a selfish, NBA mode of one-on-one, "I be da man" default rhythm of play.

This team doesn't run sets, nor does it need to. There are at least 5 players (Lebron, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Kobe) who are perfectly capable of running the offense on their own without a need for set plays. In fact, offense is probably the least of Coach K's worries. We're only averaging about 30 more points as a team than the next highest scoring squad.


THAT detracts from their athletic fast-breaking and lights-out shooting advantages.

Huh? Fast breaks are triggered off defense, how does "selfish 1 on 1" offense affect our fast breaks?

I think it's pretty clear the only real flaws with this team are post defense and pick and roll defense. We have no one to defend the paint when Chandler isn't in the game, and we have trouble with teams that are fluid with player/ball movement. Other than that, I give us a 90% chance to take home the gold. No one in the field can keep up with our scoring output.

porkpa
08-07-2012, 05:16 AM
I just see far too much reliance on the three. When its falling things are great. When it isn't there are problems. I can see the reason for it being so important for Duke the last few years, because our teams obviously didn't have near the diversity, speed, strength and depth, even on a relative basis that Team USA has. I would like to see our guys get more involved in the trenches and have more options(both Team USA and Duke) when the threes are not falling..

Billy Dat
08-07-2012, 10:11 AM
This team doesn't run sets, nor does it need to. There are at least 5 players (Lebron, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Kobe) who are perfectly capable of running the offense on their own without a need for set plays. In fact, offense is probably the least of Coach K's worries. We're only averaging about 30 more points as a team than the next highest scoring squad.

Huh? Fast breaks are triggered off defense, how does "selfish 1 on 1" offense affect our fast breaks?

I think it's pretty clear the only real flaws with this team are post defense and pick and roll defense. We have no one to defend the paint when Chandler isn't in the game, and we have trouble with teams that are fluid with player/ball movement. Other than that, I give us a 90% chance to take home the gold. No one in the field can keep up with our scoring output.

This is a debate that never got off the ground in the Lithuania game thread - when you have the resources that K has, has offense evolved beyond continuity sets? Or, do we not use them because the team, while having far greater continuity in players/coaches than from 1992-2004, still experiences 50%-100% churn every 2 year cycle?

As for not protecting the rim, the primary flaw in the way K is coaching the team, according to a cohort of stat heads (including John Hollinger), is when we goes to the Chadler-less, Love-less small line-up. Apparanntly, those line-ups are the closest to a negative +/-, and may have even had a cumulative negative +/- at some point recently.

Of course, after last night's game, the pendulum has swung back to "maybe any Team USA flaws are meaningless because they are so dominant. The Lithuania game came after an extended period of time with no practices and a historic blowout win over Nigeria. Were the 6 quarters after Nigeria an abberation? We have only to wait until tomorrow against the Aussies to start finding out. Will Andrew Gaze be in the building?

As for last night's game, the 3rd Quarter was simply incredible...from Lebron's quick 9 in a row to start it off to Durant's insane 3 point explosion to really solid and disruptive defense. The Medal Round is here!!!

Olympic Fan
08-07-2012, 11:04 AM
If this has been posted elsewhere, I apologize, but I stumbled across this video of Christian Laettner's comments on the USA-Argentina game:

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/basketball/story/Team-USA-beats-Argentina-despite-dirty-tricks-in-Olympic-basketball-080612

Duke71
08-07-2012, 11:21 AM
This team doesn't run sets, nor does it need to. There are at least 5 players (Lebron, Paul, Deron, Westbrook, Kobe) who are perfectly capable of running the offense on their own without a need for set plays. In fact, offense is probably the least of Coach K's worries. We're only averaging about 30 more points as a team than the next highest scoring squad.



Huh? Fast breaks are triggered off defense, how does "selfish 1 on 1" offense affect our fast breaks?

I think it's pretty clear the only real flaws with this team are post defense and pick and roll defense. We have no one to defend the paint when Chandler isn't in the game, and we have trouble with teams that are fluid with player/ball movement. Other than that, I give us a 90% chance to take home the gold. No one in the field can keep up with our scoring output.

licc85:



Where do you think the much needed habits of solid, shut-down defense come from? Standing around watching da-man-of-da-moment creating his own shot on a "stand there and watch me" clear-out, time after time just because they CAN...wherein most teammates dig in to watch the show?



I posit that constant ball movement and player movement creates not only offensive opportunity - if you do it quick enough and commitedly enough - but it also creates the collective energy for you and your teammates to transition to a keep-your-feet-moving attitude that creates good defensive performance. P-l-e-a-s-e, nothing was said about a slow-down, Princeton like offense of pre-scripted "sets". Team USA would be foolish to adopt such an approach. It would ignore the obvious advantages we clearly have, so don't even go there in suggesting that I might have been hinting at that alternative.





Re-watch the Lithuania game. The USA opponents' passes to each other were lightning, zippy fast. Almost no Pete Carril slo-mo backdoor sets, and no Princeton fingerprints to any of their strategy. They got the most out of their skill set that way. The passes were z-i-p-p-y.



As for your observation, "No one in the field can keep up with our scoring output.", I don't disagree. Several college teams over the years have ridden that "who needs defense, we'll just outscore them" horse deep into many tournaments. It's just that it's very tough to get to the champion's "promised land" that way.



As you rightly point out, our real weakness is lazy defense. We have the overwhelming skills necessary to showcase clamp-down "D", and create turnovers almost at will with that type of defense. (Yes, I concede that your implication is absolutely right that fast breaks usually come from this)...but standing around on offense and occasionally swatting with your quick hands doesn't prime the pump for the "D" necessary to do that very well) No denying it tho', it's unpleasantly hard work to do that game after game. As of now, Team USA is coasting and probably thinking that they'll have fresher legs by revving up the defensive intensity, if and only if it becomes absolutely necessary. They're obviously so much better than the competition that this might work....and pass the gold medal muster. Then again, by doing that we leave the possibility that the ever-puzzling international refs might determine the medal outcome as they did in '72. The original '92 Dream Team took the refs' influence largely out of the picture by pretty much mercilessly crushing each and every opponent. This year's Team USA has the same option. I hope they choose wisely.

Bluedog
08-07-2012, 11:56 AM
Anybody notice that in 2008 the U.S. went through Australia, Argentina, and then Spain for the gold, and how the brackets unfolded, we again face Australia in the quarters, with Argentina as a potential semifinal matchup, and Spain possible in the finals? Pretty coincidental, although certainly far from a sure thing to happen. I could definitely see Brazil beating Argentina and Spain has not looked very good at all. I think Russia or Lithuania comes out of the bottom half. And, of course, the U.S. could always lose a single game in a one-and-done format, so nothing is guaranteed.

roywhite
08-07-2012, 12:45 PM
As you rightly point out, our real weakness is lazy defense. We have the overwhelming skills necessary to showcase clamp-down "D", and create turnovers almost at will with that type of defense. (Yes, I concede that your implication is absolutely right that fast breaks usually come from this)...but standing around on offense and occasionally swatting with your quick hands doesn't prime the pump for the "D" necessary to do that very well) No denying it tho', it's unpleasantly hard work to do that game after game. As of now, Team USA is coasting and probably thinking that they'll have fresher legs by revving up the defensive intensity, if and only if it becomes absolutely necessary. They're obviously so much better than the competition that this might work....and pass the gold medal muster. Then again, by doing that we leave the possibility that the ever-puzzling international refs might determine the medal outcome as they did in '72. The original '92 Dream Team took the refs' influence largely out of the picture by pretty much mercilessly crushing each and every opponent. This year's Team USA has the same option. I hope they choose wisely.

I'm not sure I would use the term "lazy defense" but there is something to this general idea.

We see it with some Duke teams, and especially early in the year. An overplaying defense can be beat with patience and good passing. Or can be beat UNLESS the defense is really good at an overall strategy of switching (when to switch, when not to switch), shifting to help, and communication. Even with Duke teams that are talented relative to the competition, it often takes time for these defensive concepts to be thoroughly learned and implemented.

Coach K, at least partly because of a shortage of good rim defenders on this team, has chosen to emphasize ball pressure and overplays. The strategy can and has worked on many occasion. The accompanying vulnerability to good, patient ball movement is a problem.

My guess is that the US will out-score the opposition, but I wouldn't be surprised to see us give up 90 to 100 points or more in a medal round game.

COYS
08-07-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm not sure I would use the term "lazy defense" but there is something to this general idea.

We see it with some Duke teams, and especially early in the year. An overplaying defense can be beat with patience and good passing. Or can be beat UNLESS the defense is really good at an overall strategy of switching (when to switch, when not to switch), shifting to help, and communication. Even with Duke teams that are talented relative to the competition, it often takes time for these defensive concepts to be thoroughly learned and implemented.

Coach K, at least partly because of a shortage of good rim defenders on this team, has chosen to emphasize ball pressure and overplays. The strategy can and has worked on many occasion. The accompanying vulnerability to good, patient ball movement is a problem.

My guess is that the US will out-score the opposition, but I wouldn't be surprised to see us give up 90 to 100 points or more in a medal round game.

I wonder what would happen if we played slightly less aggressively on the perimeter and let our length prevent any passes inside the three point arc. Meanwhile, when Chandler and Love are both out, we can aggressively front the opposing post players with our athletic 4's and pseudo 5's like James and Anthony. With the extreme advantage the USA has on the perimeter with length and athleticism, I'd wonder if we might actually be better off jumping out into the passing lanes from a more compact defensive position, which would leave all the defenders closer to the lane to help out any time someone gets around one of our guys on the perimeter.

There are risks with this, obviously. Opposing teams might be able to dominate us too easily in the post if we don't keep constant pressure on perimeter players. Opposing teams could also get hot from outside, although theoretically we'd be able to close out on shooters quickly with our length. I'd still be curious to see it. On the other hand, the medal round is hardly the time to start experimenting.

Duke71
08-07-2012, 07:02 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always found that getting a cheap shot to the nuts is a highly motivating gesture for the ambushed victim. I'm looking for Carmello and the rest of the U.S. team to do whatever it takes to make a serious statement from here on out....detailed analysis aside, "Git-R-Done" - no matter what it takes - will likely be the groin-felt inspiration both in the locker room and on the court from here on out for the USA team. Coach K will not stand in the way of such a deeply personal call-to-arms.

licc85
08-08-2012, 04:05 AM
Where do you think the much needed habits of solid, shut-down defense come from? Standing around watching da-man-of-da-moment creating his own shot on a "stand there and watch me" clear-out, time after time just because they CAN...wherein most teammates dig in to watch the show?

I posit that constant ball movement and player movement creates not only offensive opportunity - if you do it quick enough and commitedly enough - but it also creates the collective energy for you and your teammates to transition to a keep-your-feet-moving attitude that creates good defensive performance. P-l-e-a-s-e, nothing was said about a slow-down, Princeton like offense of pre-scripted "sets". Team USA would be foolish to adopt such an approach. It would ignore the obvious advantages we clearly have, so don't even go there in suggesting that I might have been hinting at that alternative.



Re-watch the Lithuania game. The USA opponents' passes to each other were lightning, zippy fast. Almost no Pete Carril slo-mo backdoor sets, and no Princeton fingerprints to any of their strategy. They got the most out of their skill set that way. The passes were z-i-p-p-y.

ok . . I think you made some pretty big conclusions based on like 2 sentences that I posted. When did I mention anything about the Princeton Offense? I said we don't run sets. The word "set" refers to any designed play on offense. I was pointing out that your post criticizing team USA's offense had absolutely no basis in fact.

Our offense is totally fine. In fact, it's the best offense in the world. We have the highest assist average and the lowest turnover rate of any team in the field, and obviously the highest scoring output. Therefore, any criticism of the way our offense is being run (aka "watching da-man-of-da-moment creating his own shot on a stand there and watch me clear-out", or whatever that means) is ludicrous, and shouldn't be discussed any further.

Also, anyone who thinks that the team relies too heavily on 3 point shooting should take note that the international 3 point line is about 3 feet closer to the basket than the NBA line. This is basically a warm up jumper for most NBA players, and guys like KD and Melo can drain these with ease all day. Shoot more 3s, I say.

CDu
08-08-2012, 04:34 PM
Our offense is totally fine. In fact, it's the best offense in the world. We have the highest assist average and the lowest turnover rate of any team in the field, and obviously the highest scoring output. Therefore, any criticism of the way our offense is being run (aka "watching da-man-of-da-moment creating his own shot on a stand there and watch me clear-out", or whatever that means) is ludicrous, and shouldn't be discussed any further.

Of COURSE our offense is totally fine. We have, by a WIDE margin, the most talented team in the tournament. It's not even close. The only reason that the other teams can keep it close is if they execute a more effective offense. They can't get away with one-on-one play because they don't have the individual talent to do it. And a lot of assists are transition assists, while their ballhandling is so much superior that they should be expected to get more assists and give up fewer turnovers.

A fluid team-oriented offense is almost always going to be more efficient than an isolation style of play, mainly because it requires the defense to work harder to defend the goal, and it more easily creates gaps in the defense. But the US is just SO much more individually talented and SO much more athletically gifted than the other teams that they can, to a large degree, get away without as much movement off the ball.


Also, anyone who thinks that the team relies too heavily on 3 point shooting should take note that the international 3 point line is about 3 feet closer to the basket than the NBA line. This is basically a warm up jumper for most NBA players, and guys like KD and Melo can drain these with ease all day. Shoot more 3s, I say.

Actually, it's at most 1'9" further. The NBA 3pt line is 23'9" with the exception of the corner, where it is 22'. The FIBA line is a uniform 22'. Definitely still an easier shot, but it's hardly the warm-up jumper you are suggesting.

That being said, there IS actually a strong argument for the high-volume 3pt approach and less movement off the ball by the US. Most of our opponents are simply going to play a very compact zone and reach/grab/hand-check anyone trying to drive. We are probably the only team that will play primarily man-to-man, and we're also probably the only team that plays extended pressure defense. This results in more fast break points for us than anyone else, and it makes us more susceptible being beaten by clever ball movement than anyone else.

That, combined with the looser FIBA officiating (especially against the US) makes it much harder to create in the half-court. The shots that are going to consistently be available are 3pt shots, because the other countries feel that their best chance is to hope we miss 3s. And honestly? They're probably right. The only game that has been close was the game where we shot poorly from 3. When we've been even decent from 3, we've killed it.

Bluedog
08-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Well, Argentina just narrowly defeated Brazil, so looks like a rematch is likely...

JBDuke
08-08-2012, 10:27 PM
Folks, we have deleted and edited a few recent posts that started to veer the discussion off into racial stereotypes. Please avoid such discussions in future posts.