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BD80
07-12-2012, 04:25 PM
I am not so quick to concede the hypothetical match-up to "the Dream Team" People forget that Bird (35) and Johnson (33) were at the end of their NBA careers. Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Mullins and Bird were never considered "fast" or "quick."

I also refuse to fawn over MJ the way DBR does. Yes, he was a winner, but I don't know how well his "machismo" would have worked with the other superstars if there were close games.

As great of an athlete as MJ was in his time, the current team has several that can physically matchup with him. I don't see how the Dream Team could cover LeBron, Melo, Kobe AND Durant.

Big difference: COACHING. Chuck Dailey was a great coach, but I would suggest that he didn't really get a chance to coach much. Coach K has these guys playing together as a TEAM. Five played for him in 2008, and five played for him in 2010. Here, MJ's ego is a detriment, and would give the 2012 team a BIG advantage.

I think it might look a bit like the 1991 NCAA semi-final game, with Laettner on the wrong side.

turnandburn55
07-12-2012, 04:53 PM
I am not so quick to concede the hypothetical match-up to "the Dream Team" People forget that Bird (35) and Johnson (33) were at the end of their NBA careers. Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Mullins and Bird were never considered "fast" or "quick."

.....

I don't see how the Dream Team could cover LeBron, Melo, Kobe AND Durant.

Kobe is older now than Magic was in 1992, and has considerably more mileage on his wheels. While Bird was at the end of his career, Magic had retirement forced upon him by HIV... he could still ball at an all-time level.

Drexler, MJ, Pippen, AND Magic would do just fine. 2012's big men would get annihalated in the paint. The four players you just named may be the only ones who would even make the 1992 roster, and I'm not sure about Melo.

sporthenry
07-12-2012, 05:27 PM
Give this team Howard, Bynum and Bosh and I think you have a game. The one thing about this argument is that athletes are constantly getting bigger and stronger which is why it's tough to really compare generations. Defensively, Howard could probably contain any big man in history b/c of his strength and size so there goes a big advantage of the '92 team. And then if you make it a perimeter game, it gets real interesting. Pippen was a great defender so him against LeBron or Durant would be fun to watch. MJ versus Kobe. I'm sure Magic's size would have troubled the '12 team but who covers Paul, Westbrook, or a healthy Rose?

Another thing that people forget is that we are judging the '92 team in light of their full careers while we are judging 2012 team right now. 10 years from now how will we look back at this time. Yes they were called the dream team but I think when we look back at that team, we remember a lot of what Malone, Stockton, Jordan, Pippen, and Ewing did later in the 90's so I'd give this current dream team an incomplete b/c of injuries as well as lack of historical perspective.

But I think you'll just see the future teams get better and better. We already know what KI is capable of doing while Durant, Harden, Westbrook, Gordon, and Griffin are all young. You have players like MKG who is given the comparison to Pippen. And then you have a bevy of up and coming SFs who look to be coming up in the mold of Durants or LeBrons with Bazz, Jabari Parker, and Wiggins just to name a few (Granted Wiggins will lead Canada with a pretty bright future). So I think you'll see this argument come up more and more but it'll be tough for future teams to have that amount of HOFers especially since some of the older guys will probably get pushed out in the future.

blazindw
07-12-2012, 05:33 PM
I want this team to win the gold first before comparing them to 1992. It's too hard to do so right now, especially since we haven't even seen them get a game in of any kind yet (exhibitions begin tonight). However, if they bring home the gold, with the competition being light years better now than it was in 1992, that would then be something for a serious debate.

BobbyFan
07-12-2012, 05:38 PM
I am not so quick to concede the hypothetical match-up to "the Dream Team" People forget that Bird (35) and Johnson (33) were at the end of their NBA careers. Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Mullins and Bird were never considered "fast" or "quick."

I also refuse to fawn over MJ the way DBR does. Yes, he was a winner, but I don't know how well his "machismo" would have worked with the other superstars if there were close games.

As great of an athlete as MJ was in his time, the current team has several that can physically matchup with him. I don't see how the Dream Team could cover LeBron, Melo, Kobe AND Durant.

Big difference: COACHING. Chuck Dailey was a great coach, but I would suggest that he didn't really get a chance to coach much. Coach K has these guys playing together as a TEAM. Five played for him in 2008, and five played for him in 2010. Here, MJ's ego is a detriment, and would give the 2012 team a BIG advantage.

I don't know if you watched the Dream Team, but their individual styles were made for one another and it was easy for them to play together. Not only is Magic the greatest PG of all time, but he is the ideal player to run the show when trying to incorporate such talent. And he was only one year removed from a season in which he was still in his prime and took his team to the Finals.

The passing on that team was amazing, and they were devastating on the break. Chris Mullin is an example of a player who wasn't a superstar, but whose superb shooting and decision making were optimal compliments and made him one of their top offensive threats. The edge 1992 has with their big men in the post is obvious. On defense, Robinson and Ewing protected the paint while Jordan/Pippen were in their prime as 2 of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

The Dream Team wasn't just a great collection of talent, but one that perfectly meshed. Aside from Bird and Stockton, who were not healthy, every player on that team was efficiently utilized leaving not even a hint of a weakness. I don't need to see how this year's version plays to know that 1992 was simply in a different league.

brevity
07-12-2012, 06:17 PM
I want this team to win the gold first before comparing them to 1992. It's too hard to do so right now, especially since we haven't even seen them get a game in of any kind yet (exhibitions begin tonight). However, if they bring home the gold, with the competition being light years better now than it was in 1992, that would then be something for a serious debate.

Because the international competition is so much better now, you could argue that the 2012 team is better than the 1992 team regardless of whether they win gold. I am inclined to make this argument, but I would also like to see them in action first. Just because 10 of the 12 players are versatile enough to play multiple positions doesn't mean that they will mesh well together.

Another difference is that, give or take Isiah Thomas, the Dream Team was the best collection of talent at that time. The 2012 is only the best collection of uninjured talent.

Finally, I will say that in the category of Assistant Coaches, I give the edge to 1992:
http://www.dukeblueplanet.com/images/gallery/36/large/Coach%20K%20was%20an%20assistant%20coach%20on%20th e%201992%20Dream%20Team.jpg

dcdevil2009
07-12-2012, 06:28 PM
Drexler, MJ, Pippen, AND Magic would do just fine. 2012's big men would get annihalated in the paint. The four players you just named may be the only ones who would even make the 1992 roster, and I'm not sure about Melo.

That's an interesting way to look at it. Which team would have more players if you were to make an 11 man team from the two teams (ignoring Laettner and Davis as 12th men). I think Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Ewing, and Robinson are locks. Magic and Bird, given their age would be a close call with Chris Paul and Carmelo. Two of those four would bring the roster to eight, while Barkley, Pippen, and someone else would bring it to eleven.

phaedrus
07-12-2012, 06:49 PM
2012's big men would get annihalated in the paint.

Kevin Love just came off a season where he averaged 26 and 13, something neither Robinson nor Ewing ever did.

Tyson Chandler just won his first defensive player of the year, thus matching the combined total of Robinson and Ewing (only Robinson won). Of course, if Dwight were on the team, 2012 would also have the only player to have ever won three DPOYs in a row.

Ewing and Robinson are, obviously, the better duo. But I would argue that neither of them is more dynamic offensively than Love, neither is a particularly more accomplished defender than Chandler, and rebounding is a wash. No one (even hypothetically) is going to annihilate Love and Chandler.

turnandburn55
07-12-2012, 10:36 PM
The one thing about this argument is that athletes are constantly getting bigger and stronger which is why it's tough to really compare generations.

Good point. The Dream Team had one player listed below 6'6" (John Stockton). Could you please list the players on the bigger, stronger 2012 team who are listed below 6'6"? Thanks.

turnandburn55
07-12-2012, 10:43 PM
Tyson Chandler just won his first defensive player of the year, thus matching the combined total of Robinson and Ewing (only Robinson won).

So you're saying the 1992 Dream Team would have been in better shape if it had 2-time DPOY Mark Eaton on the team instead of Patrick Ewing?

Starter
07-13-2012, 12:01 AM
That's an interesting way to look at it. Which team would have more players if you were to make an 11 man team from the two teams (ignoring Laettner and Davis as 12th men). I think Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Ewing, and Robinson are locks. Magic and Bird, given their age would be a close call with Chris Paul and Carmelo. Two of those four would bring the roster to eight, while Barkley, Pippen, and someone else would bring it to eleven.

Barkley, Pippen and Malone would also be locks. Honestly, Magic too. He was 33, younger than Kobe is now. He just hadn't played in a year. But he was still totally awesome in the Olympics.

I watched tonight's game. Honestly, there's absolutely zero comparison in my mind between the '92 team and any current iteration. The '08 team, at the very least comparable to this team, barely beat the Gasols, Rudy Fernandez and 14-year-old Ricky Rubio. You think that could have happened to the Dream Team? Heck outta here with that. Jordan would have ripped out Rubio's heart and shown it to him; he wouldn't have got over halfcourt. A frontcourt of Ewing/Robinson/Malone/Barkley against Chandler/Love/Anthony Davis? I mean, come on. Those are four Hall of Fame ballplayers in their primes. I even like Stockton's chances against Paul and Deron, who have him in quickness -- until he starts kneeing them in the thigh when they go by and stuff. At least to me, if you think this team is anywhere close to what the '92 team was in talent and chemistry? You trippin', homie.

Des Esseintes
07-13-2012, 12:49 AM
Barkley, Pippen and Malone would also be locks. Honestly, Magic too. He was 33, younger than Kobe is now. He just hadn't played in a year. But he was still totally awesome in the Olympics.

I watched tonight's game. Honestly, there's absolutely zero comparison in my mind between the '92 team and any current iteration. The '08 team, at the very least comparable to this team, barely beat the Gasols, Rudy Fernandez and 14-year-old Ricky Rubio. You think that could have happened to the Dream Team? Heck outta here with that. Jordan would have ripped out Rubio's heart and shown it to him; he wouldn't have got over halfcourt. A frontcourt of Ewing/Robinson/Malone/Barkley against Chandler/Love/Anthony Davis? I mean, come on. Those are four Hall of Fame ballplayers in their primes. I even like Stockton's chances against Paul and Deron, who have him in quickness -- until he starts kneeing them in the thigh when they go by and stuff. At least to me, if you think this team is anywhere close to what the '92 team was in talent and chemistry? You trippin', homie.

I don't have a complaint with your argument. It's pretty much how I feel as well. That said, I think it presumptuous to assume Stockton has a clear edge on Chris Paul when it comes to extra-legal tactics. I understand Stockton is the gold standard on that score, but Paul has a strong, strong argument already as an all-timer.

Starter
07-13-2012, 01:12 AM
I don't have a complaint with your argument. It's pretty much how I feel as well. That said, I think it presumptuous to assume Stockton has a clear edge on Chris Paul when it comes to extra-legal tactics. I understand Stockton is the gold standard on that score, but Paul has a strong, strong argument already as an all-timer.

That's a very good point. Paul even kicks it up a notch by focusing on -- at risk of working a little blue -- the genitalia. The great part is that they both look so innocent, but are dirty sons of guns for sure. In certain ways, it's a dream matchup; they were made for each other.

licc85
07-13-2012, 02:18 AM
I didn't like the way MJ responded to the comments by Kobe, he should have taken the high road . . because seriously, this is a stupid argument. You can try to talk yourself into this as much as you want, but in a 7 game series, it wouldn't matter even if this team had a healthy Howard/Rose/Griffin, the dream team would CRUSH them. In fact, I think only 3 or 4 players on this team could have even made the dream team. (LeBron, Kobe, KD, maybe CP3) Could they steal a game or even 2 in a 7 game series? Yeah probably, but that's it.

This team is easily the best in the world currently, but come on, just stop it. There's nothing to argue about.

CDu
07-13-2012, 08:43 AM
I am not so quick to concede the hypothetical match-up to "the Dream Team" People forget that Bird (35) and Johnson (33) were at the end of their NBA careers. Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Mullins and Bird were never considered "fast" or "quick."

I also refuse to fawn over MJ the way DBR does. Yes, he was a winner, but I don't know how well his "machismo" would have worked with the other superstars if there were close games.

As great of an athlete as MJ was in his time, the current team has several that can physically matchup with him. I don't see how the Dream Team could cover LeBron, Melo, Kobe AND Durant.

Big difference: COACHING. Chuck Dailey was a great coach, but I would suggest that he didn't really get a chance to coach much. Coach K has these guys playing together as a TEAM. Five played for him in 2008, and five played for him in 2010. Here, MJ's ego is a detriment, and would give the 2012 team a BIG advantage.

I think it might look a bit like the 1991 NCAA semi-final game, with Laettner on the wrong side.

I think it would have been interesting. I totally agree about Bird and Johnson. They were basically legacy picks. Bird was done as an NBAer by that point. Johnson was still solid, but clearly on the downside. The same is true for Drexler. Mullin was on the very back end of his prime, but he was basically just a gunner.

The guys in their primes were Stockton, Malone, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, and Robinson. James, Anthony, Williams, Paul, and Iguodala are in their primes for this team, with Durant, Love, Griffin and Westbrook on the rise (though already superstars) and Harden is a rising star (though not there yet). Bryant is a superstar on the back end of his prime.

The main difference I see is that the Dream Team had two elite C in their prime (Robinson and Ewing) and two elite PF in their prime (Malone and Barkley). So the question is whether the size and experience of the Dream Team would outweigh the athleticism of the current Olympic Team. In terms of star power, both teams had plenty.

Now, one might argue that Anthony, Griffin, and James could handle the defensive assignment on those two, while punishing them from the perimeter or with athleticism. So maybe it's a draw at PF (an edge to the current team if James plays PF). And you could make the same argument for Love, but not Chandler. So a definite edge to the Dream Team at C. On the perimeter, I'd take Durant, James, and Bryant over Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler (the edge tips back to the Dream Team if James is a PF). I'd call Paul-in-his-prime and a past-his-prime Magic a slight edge to today's group. Among the bench guards, I'd take Stockton over Williams at backup PG. I'd take Mullin over Harden at designated shooter.

So I'd give the starting lineup edge to the current squad, but the bench edge goes to the Dream Team. And overall I'd take the Dream Team. But I think it's closer than many would presume.

phaedrus
07-13-2012, 09:35 AM
So you're saying the 1992 Dream Team would have been in better shape if it had 2-time DPOY Mark Eaton on the team instead of Patrick Ewing?

Obviously. Chandler tops Ewing in that other all-important category, too: titles. Case closed!

sporthenry
07-13-2012, 09:49 AM
Good point. The Dream Team had one player listed below 6'6" (John Stockton). Could you please list the players on the bigger, stronger 2012 team who are listed below 6'6"? Thanks.

LeBron James is listed as 250 pounds. The Dream Team had one guy at 250 pounds and one guy at 255 pounds. Those two were Malone and Barkley. You really think one of those could cover LeBron? Pippen at 210? LeBron would just go to the block and go to work on Pippen. Throw in Dwight Howard who is at 265 and I think he effectively shuts down either Robinson or Ewing who are sitting at 235 and 240 pounds respectively. Kevin Durant weighs as much as David Robinson did. Just think about that for a second. The strength and explosiveness of the current team would be off the charts in 1992. Of course there is no way to measure that but you really think they could effectively keep Rose or Westbrook from getting to the rim because I don't.

I think it'd be a closely contested series but I think people view the 1992 team so much differently b/c they were the first of their kind and they revolutionized basketball at least international basketball. And as I mentioned before we look back and see 11 HOFers but who knows what this Team USA will look like in 20 years. Durant, Kobe, Lebron, and Wade are probably locks for the Hall and Howard, Paul, Williams, Rose, Westbrook, Love, Aldridge, and Griffin could all get in. Heck, we may look back and Anthony Davis might be one of the best players on this team and Irving might be better than the rest of the PGs when all is said and done.

But basketball is played 5 guys at a time and put their best 5 against our best 5 without injuries and you have a game. Not to mention the level of play the USA team faced in 1992 doesn't seem close to what 2012 will face. Certainly, the 1992 team faced a lot of unknowns but facing Kukoc before he was in the NBA or Arvydas Sabonis doesn't compare to the Gasols, Ibaka, Varejao, Manu, etc. I'm sure there were some players who would have been good NBA players who never came over in 1992 but perhaps the best thing the '92 team did to maintain its dominance was make sure that future international teams had the likes of Dirk on their team.

FerryFor50
07-13-2012, 10:00 AM
I think people are WAY over-estimating the 1992 Dream Team.

They ran roughshod over an international basketball community that was absolute GARBAGE. BBall had not really taken off yet internationally, so they didn't see even close to the talent level seen today.

Jordan was great, but how great would he have been with Lebron pounding on him? No one in 1992 was 6'8", 250lbs and as freakishly athletic AND talented as Lebron is. So, to me, they cancel each other out.

So, remove Jordan and Lebron, and you're left with a pretty decent matchup. The 1992 team had elite bigs, so they'd likely pound it inside and win the game, but it wouldn't be a total destruction like everyone makes it out to be...

UrinalCake
07-13-2012, 10:25 AM
LeBron James is listed as 250 pounds. The Dream Team had one guy at 250 pounds and one guy at 255 pounds. Those two were Malone and Barkley. You really think one of those could cover LeBron? Pippen at 210? LeBron would just go to the block and go to work on Pippen. Throw in Dwight Howard who is at 265 and I think he effectively shuts down either Robinson or Ewing who are sitting at 235 and 240 pounds respectively. Kevin Durant weighs as much as David Robinson did. Just think about that for a second. The strength and explosiveness of the current team would be off the charts in 1992. Of course there is no way to measure that but you really think they could effectively keep Rose or Westbrook from getting to the rim because I don't..

I think this is a really important point and the reason why it would be a close game. As others have mentioned, players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. You can't really compare across generations because we don't have a time machine. Malone was the epitome of strength in that era, but I'd venture to guess that James, Griffin, and Anthony are just as strong today. Also, defense today is far more complex and deliberate than it was in the 90's. When I see old clips of games from back then I basically see five defenders just standing around. And finally, the big guys on the current team can all handle the ball and shoot from the outside, except for Chandler and Davis. That would create a real matchup problem.

Starter
07-13-2012, 10:34 AM
I think it would have been interesting. I totally agree about Bird and Johnson. They were basically legacy picks. Bird was done as an NBAer by that point. Johnson was still solid, but clearly on the downside. The same is true for Drexler. Mullin was on the very back end of his prime, but he was basically just a gunner.

The guys in their primes were Stockton, Malone, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, and Robinson. James, Anthony, Williams, Paul, and Iguodala are in their primes for this team, with Durant, Love, Griffin and Westbrook on the rise (though already superstars) and Harden is a rising star (though not there yet). Bryant is a superstar on the back end of his prime.

The main difference I see is that the Dream Team had two elite C in their prime (Robinson and Ewing) and two elite PF in their prime (Malone and Barkley). So the question is whether the size and experience of the Dream Team would outweigh the athleticism of the current Olympic Team. In terms of star power, both teams had plenty.

Now, one might argue that Anthony, Griffin, and James could handle the defensive assignment on those two, while punishing them from the perimeter or with athleticism. So maybe it's a draw at PF (an edge to the current team if James plays PF). And you could make the same argument for Love, but not Chandler. So a definite edge to the Dream Team at C. On the perimeter, I'd take Durant, James, and Bryant over Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler (the edge tips back to the Dream Team if James is a PF). I'd call Paul-in-his-prime and a past-his-prime Magic a slight edge to today's group. Among the bench guards, I'd take Stockton over Williams at backup PG. I'd take Mullin over Harden at designated shooter.

So I'd give the starting lineup edge to the current squad, but the bench edge goes to the Dream Team. And overall I'd take the Dream Team. But I think it's closer than many would presume.

Pretty good analysis, that matchup on the wing would be epic. Just a couple minor points here: Carmelo is a pretty lousy defender on most nights -- trust me -- and Griffin is fairly below average (and now injured, of course). LeBron is great, but I'd feel the '92 team would have an overwhelming edge at power forward with two of the greatest of all time on the team, even if Love is playing the 4. Same goes for center, like you said. I think even if we're charitable, heal Dwight's back and throw him in the mix, people forget just how dynamic and awesome Ewing and Robinson were back then on both ends.

Bird played two games in the Olympics, I think? He was pretty shot. (He still hit everything he shot, though!) But Magic was hardly a legacy pick to me, he was only a year removed from the game and was still a totally awesome basketball player that summer. Drexler was about at the midpoint, but he was coming off a great season and was very good for a number of years after the Olympics. Mullin was 29 and sandwiched in between two 25 ppg seasons, and for a long-distance marksman, the guy shot over 50% for his career. (!) He did drop off pretty significantly scoring-wise in the mid-90's, though I work with a close family member of Mullin's who claims it was off-court issues that slowed him down. I believe him, especially given what we've heard about the early portions of his career dating back to St. John's, but even after he was no longer a truly exceptional player, he was still one of the best shooters in the NBA for like another decade.

Durant, Kobe and LeBron are very difficult matchups for anyone, even the '92 Olympic team. But Pippen was an all-time great defender, and Jordan was obviously fantastic -- and then there's the matter of attempting to contain the '92 version of Jordan, which was perhaps the greatest iteration of any player I've ever seen. Pippen and Drexler were no slouches themselves, and their scoring averages probably would have looked a lot more impressive if they didn't have to deal with hand checks or forearms in their prime.

Obviously, I can only dream about seeing players of this caliber across eras match up, which is why this debate isn't silly to me. Given the attention it's getting -- even on this board, from NBA fans like CDu and Des Esseintes -- I'm not the only one enjoying this. And that's kind of what matters.

BD80
07-13-2012, 11:29 AM
... The Dream Team had one guy at 250 pounds and one guy at 255 pounds. Those two were Malone and Barkley. ...

Barkley was "listed" at 255. Heh, heh, heh.

He was 255 as a sophmore in high school. He played at more like 275 - 280. He was also closer to 6'6" than 6'8". Its been said he was below 6'5" without shoes. But he knew how to use his body, and he sure could get position for rebounds. Conversely, he wasn't one to pull balls off of the rim.

Barkley is another reason the comparison of teams is so interesting, he was unique, and it is difficult to imagine the match-ups. That is why I think Coach K would make such a difference.

I think people are also forgetting how effective Carmelo was in the 2008 games. He may have been Coach K's favorite player. He may not be as strong as Malone was, but he was very effective at the 4.

BTW does the size/shape of the lane difference impact anyone's opinion?

UrinalCake
07-13-2012, 11:34 AM
BTW does the size/shape of the lane difference impact anyone's opinion?

Good question. I think the trapezoidal lane (which was used internationally in 1992 but has since gone away in favor of the NBA lane) would benefit the 2012 team since it would pull the centers away from the basket. Probably not a huge deal though.

dcdevil2009
07-13-2012, 12:54 PM
But basketball is played 5 guys at a time and put their best 5 against our best 5 without injuries and you have a game. Not to mention the level of play the USA team faced in 1992 doesn't seem close to what 2012 will face. Certainly, the 1992 team faced a lot of unknowns but facing Kukoc before he was in the NBA or Arvydas Sabonis doesn't compare to the Gasols, Ibaka, Varejao, Manu, etc. I'm sure there were some players who would have been good NBA players who never came over in 1992 but perhaps the best thing the '92 team did to maintain its dominance was make sure that future international teams had the likes of Dirk on their team.

I know this is somewhat off topic, but I'd take Sabonis in his prime over any of those 5. The guy was just a phenom before his body gave out on him. If he had been in the NBA instead of Europe during his prime, who knows where he'd stack up historically. Even with his injury shortened career, he got into the Hall of Fame last year, and along with Dirk and Drazen Petrovic should be included in any conversation for best European players of all time. Now you could easily argue that the Lithuanian team (or any other 1992 team) wasn't as good as today's Spains, Brazils, or Argentinas, although they did win the 1988 gold medal in our last year of sending college players, and you'd probably be correct, but for some reason I feel obligated to stick up for Sabonis as better than any one of the players you mentioned.

Ok, now that I'm done making an admittedly unnecessary defense of my favorite player on the historically underrated list, and having watched last night's game, the '92 team would beat this year's team as currently constructed. If you could replace Love and Harden with Wade and Howard, I think it's a closer game.

1. Howard v. Robinson. This matchup is probably a wash. Two of the most physically impressive centers ever, one who doesn't look headed toward an NBA title and the other who didn't win a title until he was paired with one of the top 10-20 players of all time. Both were great on defense, but I'm going to give Howard the slight edge in this matchup.

2. Chandler v. Ewing. Although Chandler was the NBA's DPOY last year, he was second to Howard for first team all defense. Interestingly enough, the 2012 and 1992 teams contain three of their respective year's first team all defense (James, Howard, Paul; Pippen, Jordan, Robinson) and 2 second teamers (Bryant and Chandler; Stockton and Ewing) and the DPOY. Chandler's known for his defense, but Ewing was probably as good there and better, if not as efficient offensively. Ewing probably has the edge here, although Chandler might complement 2012's roster better than Ewing complemented 1992. Chandler also wasn't on the receiving end of two of the greatest dunks of all time, thrown down by Jordan and Ewing.

3. James v. Barkley. An interesting matchup as either guy would likely come out on top if paired against someone else from the other team. Barkley has the rebounding edge, but LeBron is better in almost every other area. Edge James.

4 and 5. Durant v. Malone; Anthony v. Pippen. This is a tough one as the match ups could and maybe should be flipped. Out of the four, Pippen is the only one really known for his defense. Durant and Anthony should be able to score relatively easily against Malone, but the same goes for Malone against the other two. Pippen, if needed could also put up points on Durant and Anthony if needed, but could at least check them. Taken together, Edge: Pippen and Malone.

6. Iguodala v. Bird. Defense v. shooting. I'm giving the edge to Iguodala because of Bird's age. Iguodala might be able to shut down Bird on offense, but even if he couldn't completely contain Larry Legend, Iguodala could outscore him on the other end if needed.

7 and 8. Bryant v. Jordan; Wade v. Drexler. In other words, Michael Jordan and 3 guys who did what Jordan did, but not as well. Kobe and Wade both have a lot of miles on their bodies, but I'd put both of them ahead of Drexler. Jordan in his prime was head and shoulders above where Wade and Kobe are now on both ends of the floor, and far enough ahead to make up for the advantage 2012 has over Drexler. Edge: Jordan and Drexler

9. Westbrook v. Mullin. A shooter v. a guy who hits the 15-17 footer with enough regularity that he can get to the rim against anyone. I don't see them matching up against each other very often, and in a competitive game, I don't see Mullin playing that many minutes as his offense couldn't compensate for his defense. Westbrook, on the other hand, would fit in nicely in a two point guard set as he did last night with Williams, where Westbrook could defend the opposing point and let the bigger Williams take the two guard. Given his versatility, I'm giving Westbrook the edge over Mullin.

10 and 11. Williams v. Johnson; Paul v. Stockton. While I'm not sure I agree with the other posters who argue Magic at 33 hadn't lost a step, I'll
defer a bit and give him the nod over Williams, who I admittedly haven't seen much of in Denver or Jersey, would counter with Paul over Stockton. Paul doesn't have the gaudy assist numbers the Stockton put up (assisting on over half his team's baskets, excluding his own shots in 1992), but he's still ruthlessly efficient in the half court and strikes the perfect balance between taking over a game and getting his teammates involved. Stockton is no Jason Kidd, but Paul wouldn't have to respect Stockton's scoring nearly as much as Stockton would have to respect Paul's. As to Williams and Magic, I think both would abuse the other offensively, but Magic would do it by passing, while Williams would drive and kick or drive and score. Magic was one of the best at running the fast break, but against the 2012 team, I envision a more half-court oriented game. I'm still giving Magic the edge, but because of the slower expected tempo, not by as much as it could be. Overall, I'd say that the these two match ups would push

12. If you give 2012 healthy Wade and healthy Howard, to be fair, you'd have to replace Laettner with someone like Isaiah Thomas or leave Anthony Davis as 2012's 12th man. I'm just going to ignore the 12th spot for simplicity.

Final tally, I've got the 2012 team on top in four match ups, 1992 on top in 5 match ups and a tie for the remaining 2.

bob blue devil
07-13-2012, 01:04 PM
another thing to factor into this hypothetical is the improvement of players, in general; i know its popular to bemoan the AAU system as destroying basketball, etc., etc., but this article (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/07/world/olympics.evolving.athletes/discus.html) pretty clearly shows that today's athlete is better than yesteryear's in individual measurement sports - i would expect the same thing to hold with the massive business of team sports (too bad we can't measure it, only waste time pontificating about it on dbr :)). think about all of the hours spent over the past 20 years by players imitating (and then improving on) the moves/techniques that made each of the dream teamers great? point being, i would take today's stars - IMO, they appear less impressive because international basketball has advanced so much, not because they aren't as good.

btw, does anybody have a sense for how today's team measures up (literally) vs. the dream team - that would be one objective comparison, although clearly provide only a very limited perspective. i assume we couldn't get verticals, but maybe at least heights and weights (maybe even those are too fudged...).

Billy Dat
07-13-2012, 01:18 PM
All arguments come down to how you frame the question - are we talking about one single game or series? Are we talking FIBA rules and FIBA refs or NBA rules and refs? Whose NBA rules are we talking about - the hand check friendly early 90s or the don't touch anyone current day? Obviously, FIBA rules are closer to the old NBA.

When I envision the debate, I envision both teams being put on the court as they appeared at the time - 1992 and 2012, and I picture a one time gold medal game. As a result, to me, it's not about individual match-ups, it's about the team play. I think 2012 wins this scenario for a few reasons:

The leap in athleticism:
The ball is tipped and the 1992 team has no idea where these freaks came from. They have never seen guys of that size and bulk with the kind of speed and skills that they have. Weight training is years beyond where it used to be, the modern player, 20 years past the old timers, would physically blow the old guys away, at least initially.

The leap is skills:
A lot of people spoke about the 1992 bigs advantage, but the 2012 teams plays a much more FIBA-like game. Our bigs would pull their bigs out on the perimeter where they would be completely lost. Who did Ewing, Malone or Robinson ever have to guard more than 10 feet from the basket? On the flip side, how often did the 1992 guards have to guard anyone in the post? I think the versatility of the 2012 team on offense would baffle the 1992 team.

The cohesion of the team:
The 1992 team never really had to gell because they killed everyone. They had no real schemes, they just freelanced on offense and played pick-up style defense. As long as they played hard, they'd have a big lead in the first quarter and then roll. The 2012 team, thanks in part to the continuity of being with the program for years, have a much more formalized strategy on both ends. Their organization and focus would, again, knock the 1992ers back on their heels. Both teams have great chemistry, but the 2012 guys are much more team-oriented from an execution-of-strategy standpoint because they have to be - the world is that much better. The 2012 training camp is much more rigorous, etc.

For these reasons, in a one and done where neither team knows the other and has 40 minutes to battle it out, I am going with the 2012 team. Much like the famous collegians vs 1992 Dream Team scrimmage, the 2012 blow their doors off in the first half and, by the time the 1992ers shake off the onslaught and realize they are in a game, it's too late to come all the way back.

Larry Bird is a guy who always seems willing to admit when someones time has come. He candidly called Magic the greatest player in the world after the 1985 finals, was the first NBA Superstar to say that Michael Jordan was the best player in the world, was seen in the Dream Team documentary telling Magic that Michael was the new sheriff in town, and is the only 1992 player who hasn't beat his chest and said 1992 would beat 2012. His answer, a coy "I think 2012 would win because we're old men now". Why? Because he knows 2012 would win!

Starter
07-13-2012, 02:28 PM
All arguments come down to how you frame the question - are we talking about one single game or series? Are we talking FIBA rules and FIBA refs or NBA rules and refs? Whose NBA rules are we talking about - the hand check friendly early 90s or the don't touch anyone current day? Obviously, FIBA rules are closer to the old NBA.

When I envision the debate, I envision both teams being put on the court as they appeared at the time - 1992 and 2012, and I picture a one time gold medal game. As a result, to me, it's not about individual match-ups, it's about the team play. I think 2012 wins this scenario for a few reasons:

The leap in athleticism:
The ball is tipped and the 1992 team has no idea where these freaks came from. They have never seen guys of that size and bulk with the kind of speed and skills that they have. Weight training is years beyond where it used to be, the modern player, 20 years past the old timers, would physically blow the old guys away, at least initially.

The leap is skills:
A lot of people spoke about the 1992 bigs advantage, but the 2012 teams plays a much more FIBA-like game. Our bigs would pull their bigs out on the perimeter where they would be completely lost. Who did Ewing, Malone or Robinson ever have to guard more than 10 feet from the basket? On the flip side, how often did the 1992 guards have to guard anyone in the post? I think the versatility of the 2012 team on offense would baffle the 1992 team.

The cohesion of the team:
The 1992 team never really had to gell because they killed everyone. They had no real schemes, they just freelanced on offense and played pick-up style defense. As long as they played hard, they'd have a big lead in the first quarter and then roll. The 2012 team, thanks in part to the continuity of being with the program for years, have a much more formalized strategy on both ends. Their organization and focus would, again, knock the 1992ers back on their heels. Both teams have great chemistry, but the 2012 guys are much more team-oriented from an execution-of-strategy standpoint because they have to be - the world is that much better. The 2012 training camp is much more rigorous, etc.

For these reasons, in a one and done where neither team knows the other and has 40 minutes to battle it out, I am going with the 2012 team. Much like the famous collegians vs 1992 Dream Team scrimmage, the 2012 blow their doors off in the first half and, by the time the 1992ers shake off the onslaught and realize they are in a game, it's too late to come all the way back.

Larry Bird is a guy who always seems willing to admit when someones time has come. He candidly called Magic the greatest player in the world after the 1985 finals, was the first NBA Superstar to say that Michael Jordan was the best player in the world, was seen in the Dream Team documentary telling Magic that Michael was the new sheriff in town, and is the only 1992 player who hasn't beat his chest and said 1992 would beat 2012. His answer, a coy "I think 2012 would win because we're old men now". Why? Because he knows 2012 would win!

I think Bird just couldn't care less to get involved. He's got some other stuff going on.

From most accounts, the 1992 team was extremely cohesive, no? The games I've caught on NBA TV and such, they looked like an incredibly well-oiled machine. They sure looked better with that than the team I saw last night, though obviously, they're going to get better with this as they play more games together.

In terms of the leap in athleticism, LeBron James is a physical specimen the likes of which we've never seen before. Besides that, though... I mean, you could say literally the same thing about Jordan, he just wasn't as big. But Jordan had other inherent advantages in mentality and competitiveness, not to mention the most lethal midrange game I'd ever seen. Was Durant that much a better athlete, if at all, than Pippen? I'll bet Pippen was stronger. Is Bryant that much a better athlete than Drexler? Was Dwight Howard -- humor me, I know neither of these guys are on the team -- more of a physical freak than 1992 Shaq? Heck, Tyson Chandler shut down Dwight this past year. Weren't David Robinson and Patrick Ewing both phenomenally talented and athletic centers the caliber of which don't exist in the league today? Wouldn't Malone and Barkley stack up pretty well with Love and Carmelo from an athletic standpoint? Westbrook: freakish athlete. But were Paul and Deron Williams that much crazier athletes than 6-foot-9 Magic Johnson and the all-time leader -- by like, 10 miles -- in steals? I honestly think the majority of the talk of improved athleticism comes directly from the existence of one guy: LeBron. But if Jordan were fresher in people's minds, they might realize he was right there with him.

Skillswise, I've always kind of thought the exact opposite of what you said. All those Hall of Famers on the Dream Team, they honed their game over years in college and came in with mature defensive games and jump shots. I don't know, I seem to remember Ewing being pretty comfortable away from the basket. Too comfortable, some might say. Plus, the night-to-night level of play and parity in the league, even though Jordan's Bulls won all the time, I feel like it was higher. You had more great players spread out over the entire league, more teams that could be considered championship-caliber -- at least during the parts of two years Jordan was doing the baseball thing.

The rest of the world has caught up to our guys in basketball a great deal. But we're just comparing the two Team USA squads, so I honestly think it's mostly irrelevant. (Though I still believe the 1992 team would have handled 2008 Spain with ease.)

Listen, I think it comes down to this: If you favor 2012, is it because they're fresher in your mind? (i.e. You just saw LeBron have a crazy finals.) And if you favor 1992, is it somewhat due to nostalgia and a steadfast belief in the "good old days"? (i.e. I own the Ultimate Jordan collection DVD and watch it frequently.) No way to know the answer to either question. But I'll say this, though I personally think it's nuts to believe this current team could beat the 1992 team -- I really do -- I absolutely respect BillyDat's opinion if he thinks the exact opposite. We've talked ball on this board before, I know he knows his stuff. It's really just a matter of conjecture between people who love the sport -- and in our case, share an infinity for one maddening NBA team -- and I love these sort of debates.

Billy Dat
07-13-2012, 02:52 PM
It's really just a matter of conjecture between people who love the sport -- and in our case, share an infinity for one maddening NBA team -- and I love these sort of debates.

Indeed, well said. I think the crux of my argument comes from the scenario I painted - one game, neither team has ever seen the other, 1992 players battling 2012 players. If it became a best of 7 series and both teams had a chance to adjust, I think the Dreamers might prevail because they'd figure out how to leverage that front line advantage.

CDu
07-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Pretty good analysis, that matchup on the wing would be epic. Just a couple minor points here: Carmelo is a pretty lousy defender on most nights -- trust me -- and Griffin is fairly below average (and now injured, of course). LeBron is great, but I'd feel the '92 team would have an overwhelming edge at power forward with two of the greatest of all time on the team, even if Love is playing the 4. Same goes for center, like you said. I think even if we're charitable, heal Dwight's back and throw him in the mix, people forget just how dynamic and awesome Ewing and Robinson were back then on both ends.

I wasn't suggesting that Griffin and Anthony could defend Malone or Barkley. They can't. I was suggesting that Malone and Barkley (neither of whom were great defenders) could guard Anthony in the international game. That's why I said it might be a wash - neither side is stopping anybody there. And if James shares the PF minutes with Anthony, look out. James could certainly defend Malone and Barkley, but those guys wouldn't stand a chance against James on the other end.

Making that move would weaken the perimeter, but that's still Durant, Bryant, and part-time James against Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler. It'd be a fantastic matchup.

Dukefan1.0
07-13-2012, 03:05 PM
Off topic a little bit, but how do you guys think the '96 team would fair against the Dream Team or the current squad. They were younger than the Dream Team and had more players hitting/in their primes. Such as Shaq, Olajuwan, Miller, Richmond who was Sacramento's leading scorer, Gary Payton, Grant Hill before his injuries, and Penny Hardaway who was Lebron before Lebron until his knees went.

Starter
07-13-2012, 03:11 PM
I wasn't suggesting that Griffin and Anthony could defend Malone or Barkley. They can't. I was suggesting that Malone and Barkley (neither of whom were great defenders) could guard Anthony in the international game. That's why I said it might be a wash - neither side is stopping anybody there. And if James shares the PF minutes with Anthony, look out. James could certainly defend Malone and Barkley, but those guys wouldn't stand a chance against James on the other end.

Making that move would weaken the perimeter, but that's still Durant, Bryant, and part-time James against Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler. It'd be a fantastic matchup.

It would, I'd love to see it. So many versatile players on both sides. And LeBron vs. Malone/Barkley would be awesome to watch. If we actually considered LeBron a power forward, instead of a guy who dominates at every position, he'd easily be the best 4 in the league.

You're right as well that Carmelo would be a problem on offense. Someone said it before, he was an incredible and pivotal offensive player for the 2008 team night in and night out. I'd say every eight games or so, my Knickerbockers get that version of Melo.

wk2109
07-13-2012, 03:32 PM
Off topic a little bit, but how do you guys think the '96 team would fair against the Dream Team or the current squad. They were younger than the Dream Team and had more players hitting/in their primes. Such as Shaq, Olajuwan, Miller, Richmond who was Sacramento's leading scorer, Gary Payton, Grant Hill before his injuries, and Penny Hardaway who was Lebron before Lebron until his knees went.

I've always thought the 1996 team has been overlooked in the best-team-ever conversation. I think a legitimate case could be made that from spots 1 through 12, the 1996 team was the best group of players -- 5 original Dream Teamers (Pippen, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Robinson), 2 other all-time great centers (Hakeem and Shaq), 2 guys who were supposed to be "next" (Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway), and other great players like Gary Payton, Reggie Miller, and Mitch Richmond. Sure there was no Michael Jordan (who has become the trump card in virtually all greatest-ever conversations), but taking into account that there was no 12th-man college player and that most/all of the guys were in their primes, the 1996 team could be the most stacked roster ever. All 12 guys made the 95-96 all-NBA team (Jordan, Shawn Kemp, and Juwan Howard were the 3 other all-NBA players that year).

NSDukeFan
07-13-2012, 04:20 PM
I think Bird just couldn't care less to get involved. He's got some other stuff going on.

From most accounts, the 1992 team was extremely cohesive, no? The games I've caught on NBA TV and such, they looked like an incredibly well-oiled machine. They sure looked better with that than the team I saw last night, though obviously, they're going to get better with this as they play more games together.

In terms of the leap in athleticism, LeBron James is a physical specimen the likes of which we've never seen before. Besides that, though... I mean, you could say literally the same thing about Jordan, he just wasn't as big. But Jordan had other inherent advantages in mentality and competitiveness, not to mention the most lethal midrange game I'd ever seen. Was Durant that much a better athlete, if at all, than Pippen? I'll bet Pippen was stronger. Is Bryant that much a better athlete than Drexler? Was Dwight Howard -- humor me, I know neither of these guys are on the team -- more of a physical freak than 1992 Shaq? Heck, Tyson Chandler shut down Dwight this past year. Weren't David Robinson and Patrick Ewing both phenomenally talented and athletic centers the caliber of which don't exist in the league today? Wouldn't Malone and Barkley stack up pretty well with Love and Carmelo from an athletic standpoint? Westbrook: freakish athlete. But were Paul and Deron Williams that much crazier athletes than 6-foot-9 Magic Johnson and the all-time leader -- by like, 10 miles -- in steals? I honestly think the majority of the talk of improved athleticism comes directly from the existence of one guy: LeBron. But if Jordan were fresher in people's minds, they might realize he was right there with him.

Skillswise, I've always kind of thought the exact opposite of what you said. All those Hall of Famers on the Dream Team, they honed their game over years in college and came in with mature defensive games and jump shots. I don't know, I seem to remember Ewing being pretty comfortable away from the basket. Too comfortable, some might say. Plus, the night-to-night level of play and parity in the league, even though Jordan's Bulls won all the time, I feel like it was higher. You had more great players spread out over the entire league, more teams that could be considered championship-caliber -- at least during the parts of two years Jordan was doing the baseball thing.

The rest of the world has caught up to our guys in basketball a great deal. But we're just comparing the two Team USA squads, so I honestly think it's mostly irrelevant. (Though I still believe the 1992 team would have handled 2008 Spain with ease.)

Listen, I think it comes down to this: If you favor 2012, is it because they're fresher in your mind? (i.e. You just saw LeBron have a crazy finals.) And if you favor 1992, is it somewhat due to nostalgia and a steadfast belief in the "good old days"? (i.e. I own the Ultimate Jordan collection DVD and watch it frequently.) No way to know the answer to either question. But I'll say this, though I personally think it's nuts to believe this current team could beat the 1992 team -- I really do -- I absolutely respect BillyDat's opinion if he thinks the exact opposite. We've talked ball on this board before, I know he knows his stuff. It's really just a matter of conjecture between people who love the sport -- and in our case, share an infinity for one maddening NBA team -- and I love these sort of debates.

This has certainly been a fun discussion. Maybe I'm old school, but I am with Starter here and believe the 92 team would win and don't see the big athleticism gap between the two teams. As much as this 2012 team is making life difficult for other teams' offenses, ask Toni Kukoc how much fun it was to go against Jordan and Pippen. Pippen seems to me like he was a bit of an athletic freak and as strong as LeBron is, isn't he just a bit of a quicker version of exercise-freak Karl Malone? And if the 1992 team would be surprised by the freak athleticism of LeBron, who they never would have seen before, can you imagine the look of shock on the 2012 team when they see this 6'4 270 lb guy grabbing every rebound, going coast-to-coast and dunking on them? I don't think Charles was much less of an athletic freak than LeBron. Also, although we all thought that Magic was going to be the introduction of the 6'9 point guard, there has never been anyone like him since. For every freak on this 2012 team, I feel there is someone on that 1992 team that is just as good in a different way. It might also be fun to watch the reaction of the current team when they see this 6'9 guy with long hair and an awkward shot, who may be hurt, but seems to be able to always know where the ball is, can shoot the lights out, somehow get his shot off despite little athletic ability and knows where everyone is on the floor at all times and what is happening before the other team does. I realize that Stockton was hurt, but with current metrics looking at efficiency, wouldn't Stockton be rated even more highly now, since he was the first point guard I can remember among the league leaders in shooting percentage?
If I were the original dream team, I don't think I would be that worried about a big guy pulling Ewing or Robinson too far away out on the perimeter as both developed into good shooters and both were game changing defensive players, but light years ahead of Howard in terms of offensive moves, IMO.
Fun to discuss, but the current team has to win before we can really have this discussion.

Blue KevIL
07-14-2012, 12:14 AM
Off topic a little bit, but how do you guys think the '96 team would fair against the Dream Team or the current squad. They were younger than the Dream Team and had more players hitting/in their primes. Such as Shaq, Olajuwan, Miller, Richmond who was Sacramento's leading scorer, Gary Payton, Grant Hill before his injuries, and Penny Hardaway who was Lebron before Lebron until his knees went.


I've always thought the 1996 team has been overlooked in the best-team-ever conversation. I think a legitimate case could be made that from spots 1 through 12, the 1996 team was the best group of players -- 5 original Dream Teamers (Pippen, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Robinson), 2 other all-time great centers (Hakeem and Shaq), 2 guys who were supposed to be "next" (Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway), and other great players like Gary Payton, Reggie Miller, and Mitch Richmond. Sure there was no Michael Jordan (who has become the trump card in virtually all greatest-ever conversations), but taking into account that there was no 12th-man college player and that most/all of the guys were in their primes, the 1996 team could be the most stacked roster ever. All 12 guys made the 95-96 all-NBA team (Jordan, Shawn Kemp, and Juwan Howard
were the 3 other all-NBA players that year).

Give me 1992 over 1996 for the following reason:

Barkley, a member of both teams, recently remarked on the Dan Patrick show that: "People forget I played on the second Dream Team. The second Dream Team really s*cked. I have to tell you something and I’ve said this privately and a few times publicly, we had so much junk going on about playing time, who was starting on the second Dream Team and on the first Dream Team we never had any of that." He went on to say that guys were arguing with Lenny Wilkens about who should start and that the 1996 comaraderie was bad.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2012/06/charles-barkley-totally-ethered-dream-team-ii-today

gep
07-14-2012, 12:21 AM
Just saw this on the debate... from the SI.com article linked below...

***********
Larry Bird may have had the best quote of all about this debate. When asked if the 2012 club could pull the upset, Bird said, "They probably could. I haven't played in 20 years and we're all old now."
***********

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/extramustard/hotclicks/07/13/dream-team-vs-olympic-team-debate-candice-swanepoel/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_bf1_a4

Blue KevIL
07-14-2012, 02:42 AM
I will preface my remarks by saying that I don't follow the NBA as closely as I did when the 1992 Dream Team played - I was 19 then and didn't have to worry about the things my 39-year-old-self does today. I do follow the NBA in 2012... just not with the same amount of spare time.

My choice is 1992 over 2012. Maybe only Coach K is truly in a position to answer this question as he was an Assistant Coach in 1992 and the Head Coach in 2012. My guess is that he would not offer an opinion.

I won't do a tale-of-the-tape comparison of player-by-player, but I do think some misperceptions of the 1992 players need to be cleared up.

David Robinson
I've seen the comments that he doesn't match up on Defense with Chandler or Offense with Love and that Robinson was never considered fast or quick.

Robinson was plenty fast and plenty quick for anyone, let alone anyone 7'1" -- case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

Granted, this clip is from 1994, but I don't see Love, Chandler or Howard putting up a statline anytime soon like this: 34 pts / 10 reb / 10 ast / 10 blk
Quadruple-Double: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpT0QdUDIY

Robinson was 26 in 1992 and in only his 3rd season. In 1991 & 1992, he was All-NBA 1st Team and finshed 3rd in MVP voting both years.
Also, he made All-Defense 1st Team and was Defensive POY in 1992 after he finished 2nd in 1991.

While he didn't get 26 & 13 (ala Love), he came close in 1991 at 25.6 & 13.0 (so if you round up, he did). His 1st 3 seasons were 24.3/12.0, 25.6/13.0 & 23.2/12.2. He lead the NBA in Rebounding in 1990-91 after finishing 2nd in his 1989-90 Rookie Season. He only played 66 games in 1991-92, so he did not win the Rebound crown that year. He did lead the NBA in Blocks in both 90-91 & 91-92.

Patrick Ewing
Ewing was no slouch either. To question his Offense or Defense is laughable. His lack of NBA Titles is due mostly to Jordan.
He was 2nd Team All-NBA in 1988, 1989, 1991 & 1992 and 1st Team All-NBA in 1990 and was Top 5 in MVP vote in 3 of those years. He made 2nd-Team All-Defense in 88, 89 & 92. He was Top 5 in Rebounds in 89-90, 90-91 & 91-92 and also Top 4 in Blocks from 1987-88 through 1991-92.
In addition, Ewing Top 4 in scoring from 1989-90 through 1991-92. That's a pretty good 5 Season stretch.

Bottom line Ewing & Robinson were legit Centers who would match up favorably with anyone in 2012.

Larry Bird
While Bird at 35 years old was most definitely a legacy pick, he earned it with all he did from 1979-80 to 1987-88. I won't go into the specifics, we all know how great he was. He just wasn't great after 1988 due to injuries and wear & tear.

Bird did play in all eight games of the 1992 Olympics: http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/teams/USA/1992
Magic (6 games) & Stockton (4 games) were the only two players who did not play in all eight games.

Bird only played 2 of the 6 games in the Tournament of the Americas.

Isiah Thomas
Give or Take? For those that say he should have been a legacy pick, digest the following:
Thomas made All-NBA 1st Team in 1984, 85 & 86 and made 2nd Team in 1983 & 87.
He did not make All-NBA after 1987 (the five seasons leading up to 1992).
After 1987, John Stockton made All-NBA 2nd Team 4 times (88, 89, 90 & 92) and 3rd Team once (91).

Thomas never made an All-Defense Team -- Stockton made All-Defense 2nd Team 3 seasons (89, 91 & 92).
Stockton and Jordan routinely challenged each other for the NBA Steals title from 1987-88 to 1991-92 with Stockton winning 2 seasons (89 & 92) and Jordan winning 2 seasons (88 & 90) - both finished Top 4 all 5 seasons.

Thomas only finished Top 5 in MVP voting once in 1984. His best stretch was from 1981-92 to 1986-87 as an individual player. His window had closed.
While he was known more as a scorer than a playmaker, Isiah did not finish Top 10 in scoring from 1987-88 to 1991-92.
He did finish Top 6 in Assists from 1987-88 to 1989-90, but Stockton lead the NBA in Assists each of the 5 seasons from 1987-88 to 1991-92 (the 5 best years of his career in which he would become the All-Time NBA Assist Leader).

Isiah Thomas had been passed by Stockton by 1992 in terms of NBA recognition. Stockton already had the chops on Offense (Assists) & Defense (Steals).

Isiah would have had to beat out Stockton, Magic, MJ and MJ-lite (Drexler) to make the 1992 Olympic Team.
That was not going to happen because he no longer had the stats and had burned many bridges (ie leading the Pistons off the floor losing with 8 seconds remaining in Game 4 of the 1991 NBA Eastern Conference Finals in which the Bulls swept Detroit).

The 1992 Dream Team did not need 5 Guards.

Clyde Drexler
As I just referred to him as MJ-lite, Drexler seemed to always be great, but not Jordan-great. He tried to do what Jordan did, but could not.
When Jordan dunked from the FT line in the 1988 Slam Dunk Contest in Chicago, Drexler tried to do the same dunk and failed.
Drexler was the last NBA player named to the Dream Team and it was not announced until after the 1991-92 Season during the NBA Playoffs.

He made All-NBA 1st Team in 1992 after having made 2nd Team in 1988 & 1991 and 3rd Team in 1990. Jordan was 1st Team from 1986-87 to 1991-92.
Just as Drexler finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1992 to Jordan, his Blazers lost the 1992 NBA Finals to Jordan's Bulls.
The mere mention of Drexler being Jordan's equal propelled Jordan to a 35-point 1st Half in Game 1 in which MJ hit 6 3-Pt shots -- not something Jordan shot frequently.

While Drexler could not measure up to Jordan, no one could. He was not that far off, though.
Like the saying goes, if you shoot for the moon and miss, you'll still be among the stars.
That was Drexler compared to Jordan. Clyde definitely belonged on this team -- to say that he was on the downside of his career is not true.
He made 4 more All-Star teams, one All-NBA 3rd Team in 1995, and won the 1995 NBA Finals with Houston.
His best NBA Season was 1991-92, but he still had 4 or 5 good years ahead of him.

Chris Mullin
To say that Mullin was not a superstar could be considered false -- unless you don't consider someone a superstar who was All-NBA 1st Team in 92, 2nd Team in 89 & 91, and 3rd Team in 90. In 1992, Mullin was 28 and at the peak of his skills. He played in the NBA until he was 37.

Mullin was a scorer for the Warriors finishing NBA top 10 in Scoring from 1988-89 to 1991-92 (finishing 3rd in 92). He was the 4th leading scorer on the Dream Team at 12.9 pts per game. While Mullin was never considered to be fast, he had instincts on defense that allowed him to finish Top 10 in NBA Steals in 1988-89 & 1990-91. He finished Top 5 for the 1991-92 Season.

Mullin was initially considered an NBA bust after a great college career at St. John's.
It's well known that Mullin is an admitted alcoholic who kicked his habit during the 1987-88 season and transformed himself into a Hall of Fame player.


Scottie Pippen
I did not mention much about Jordan, Barkley, Malone, Magic or Pippen because I did not see too much in the previous posts that I wanted to address.
It goes without saying that, with the exception of Pippen, each of those players had established a tremendous body of work leading up to 1992.

Pippen was just 26 in 1992 and was only starting to scratch the surface of his abilities. He was a team manager in high school and was only 5-9 as HS senior. He went to Central Arkansas to be the towel boy with the intentions of becoming a gym teacher. He got an opportunity to play after injuries and once his body developed, he worked hard to become a player. Unfortunately, the competition in NAIA was weak and Pippen did not truly develop as a player until the Bulls drafted him and he faced Jordan every day in practice.

Pippen came a long way from Central Arkansas by 1992 and had gained the confidence and swagger under the watchful eye of MJ.

Someone mentioned LeBron posting-up Scottie on the block.

First, I think Pippen would have held his own against LeBron as a defender.
Scottie made NBA All-Defense 1st Team in 1992 for the first time and would make 1st Team for the next 7 seasons.
He may go down as one of the best defenders in the history of the NBA.

Second, the thought of LeBron posting up makes me chuckle. While he has shown the intention to post up more frequently this past season than before http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/03/01/film-study-lebron-in-the-post/, his post game needs to be more developed and he tends to play on the perimeter.
This is where Pippen would have thrived defensively in this match-up on the perimeter.

*******************************

I've got all 14 Dream Team games from 1992 on DVD (transferred from VHS).
If I didn't have all of those 39-year-old things to worry about, I'd be watching them all leading up to this year's Olympics.

Can't wait for the games! GO USA!

g-money
07-14-2012, 02:49 AM
Fun discussion here. I think that there is a generational lens through which most people would view this hypothetical matchup. If you are old enough to have been a teenager during the '92 games, you're probably picking the original Dream Team. If you're currently a teenager or in your 20's, you're probably going with with the 2012 edition.

That said, I'm going to go against the grain (as a 37-year-old old fart) and pick the 2012 team in a winner-takes-all format. My reasoning is that after Jordan, the next best three players on the court would be James, Bryant, and Durant. Now, I'm not saying that these three are better than Magic and Bird were in their primes, but I do think these three were better than Magic and Bird (and everybody else on the Dream Team) as of '92. I also think the quickness of the guards on the current team would give the Dream Team fits. This would effectively counterbalance the advantage of the Dream Team inside.

So...I'll pick the 2012 team to win via a Durant three at the buzzer.

Somebody please figure out time travel so we can resolve this debate on the court! How about the flux capacitor, anyone?

ice-9
07-14-2012, 05:48 AM
While the 96 team didn't have that cohesion...in my mind, Shaq is the most dominant player I have ever seen. I watched a random NBA classic game a few nights ago and Shaq was in it. It didn't matter how he was defended, he was unstoppable near the basket. Dwight Howard, for all his current celebrity, doesn't even come close to Shaq on offence.

When you have a player like that, you don't really need much to win...a steady point guard (Stockton, Payton), high percentage shooters (Miller, Malone) and team defence (Pippen, Hill). I don't know if the 96 team would jell enough to do those things, but individually, they certainly have the talent.

When it comes to 96 vs. 92 or 12, chemistry issues aside, who wins might just come down to how well Shaq shoots free throws.

moonpie23
07-14-2012, 09:55 AM
I think people are also forgetting how effective Carmelo was in the 2008 games. He may have been Coach K's favorite player.

on jim rome, coach K said, "without jason kidd, we don't win the gold"......


everyone here is forgetting one player on the dream team......mister 10-for-10 and 10 free throws? he woulda "stomped" this year's team.....

;)

turnandburn55
07-14-2012, 12:25 PM
My reasoning is that after Jordan, the next best three players on the court would be James, Bryant, and Durant. Now, I'm not saying that these three are better than Magic and Bird were in their primes, but I do think these three were better than Magic and Bird (and everybody else on the Dream Team) as of '92.

I'm not really buying it. Yes, Larry Bird was on the Dream Team largely as a career acheivement award and was a shadow of his previous self, but Magic Johnson was still very near the peak of his abilities. In his last season, dude averaged 19.4 PPG, 12.5 APG, and 7.0 APG... only his scoring efficiency dropped slightly (47.7 FG%, but still remarkable). In the playoffs, he upped those numbers to 21.8 points, 12.6 assists, and 8.1 rebounds. Go back and look at some tapes of the 1991 Finals-- even MJ was having difficultly staying out of foul trouble guarding him until Worthy was injured and Scottie Pippen could move over.

Worthy and Scott were on fumes, and Kareem was long gone, but don't kid yourself-- if not for HIV, Magic still had years of superstardom ahead of him. I repeat what I said in a previous post: Kobe is older now than Magic was in 1992. In 5 years we could very well be saying "Yeah, 2012 Kobe Bryant was a fine player, but this wasn't 2001 Kobe or 81 point Kobe or even 2010 Finals MVP Kobe. This is a guy who had just suffered two second round exits in the playoffs and whose shooting percentage was slipping badly as he was just trying to hang on"

On another point, we're seriously underrating Scottie Pippen in this discussion. It's almost a cliche to say he lived in Jordan's shadow, but in 1992 he average 21 points (on better than 50% shooting), 7.7 rebounds, 7 assists, and made the All-Defensive First Team.

Are we really going to say that a 29 year old Michael Jordan, 32 year old Magic Johnson, and 26 year old Scottie Pippen are at a disadvantage against 27 year old LeBron, 33 year old Kobe, and 24 year old Durant? Give me the former trio, and I like my chances just fine.

If you want to throw 28 year old Carmelo in, I'll counter with the 28 year old, 6'7" althetic freak known as Clyde Drexler, who has led his team to two NBA Finals in the last three years and was a more efficient scorer, equal rebounder, and better passer.

turnandburn55
07-14-2012, 12:29 PM
While the 96 team didn't have that cohesion...in my mind, Shaq is the most dominant player I have ever seen.

I don't disagree with you, but at that point in his career, Shaq himself hadn't put it all together yet-- which is why more experienced teams (Rockets, Bulls, Jazz, Spurs) consistently swept him in the playoffs. Give me the 2000 version of Shaq, I might give it to you... but in 1996 I'm not sure he's the difference-maker.

vick
07-15-2012, 09:04 PM
On another point, we're seriously underrating Scottie Pippen in this discussion. It's almost a cliche to say he lived in Jordan's shadow, but in 1992 he average 21 points (on better than 50% shooting), 7.7 rebounds, 7 assists, and made the All-Defensive First Team.

Are we really going to say that a 29 year old Michael Jordan, 32 year old Magic Johnson, and 26 year old Scottie Pippen are at a disadvantage against 27 year old LeBron, 33 year old Kobe, and 24 year old Durant? Give me the former trio, and I like my chances just fine.

While I'm second to few in my respect for Scottie Pippen, if anything, he's being overrated in this conversation, where people are saying he could hold his own against LeBron James. Look, in Pippen's best season, 93-94, he had a true shooting percentage of 55.9%, rebounding percentage of 12.5%, and an assist percentage of 22.8% while with a usage rate of 26.3% and turning over 15.2% of plays. Last year James, on the other hand, and on a significantly better team in a deeper league (93-94 is no one's idea of a golden era to my knowledge), shot 60.5%, rebounded 12.6%, and assisted 33.6% while using 32.0% of his team's possessions and turning over 13.3% of the time. They had roughly equal defensive ratings (James being a bit better), for what that's worth, and were both 1st team all-defense. In other words, James was a substantially more efficient player, while using far more plays, on a much better team, in a tougher era. Pippen would also give up 30 pounds based on listed figures (I would guess a bit more eyeballing it). Anyway, the point is, a team playing Pippen guarding James is giving up a lot, and this is no knock on Pippen at all--it's a testament to how good James really is.

Seriously, I understand people don't like James, but people need to get past it when evaluating teams. Even this so-called "will to win" point is grossly overstated. At the age Lebron James is right now (27), Michael Jordan had zero titles and zero finals appearances versus James's one and three, respectively. Placing James in the same league as Pippen, as great as he was, is just not right.

vick
07-15-2012, 09:28 PM
Oops, was looking at 94-95 stats, not that it changes the overall story at all (Pippen was actually a touch more efficient overall that year than 93-94, though with lower usage).

turnandburn55
07-15-2012, 10:25 PM
While I'm second to few in my respect for Scottie Pippen, if anything, he's being overrated in this conversation, where people are saying he could hold his own against LeBron James. Look, in Pippen's best season, 93-94, he had a true shooting percentage of 55.9%, rebounding percentage of 12.5%, and an assist percentage of 22.8% while with a usage rate of 26.3% and turning over 15.2% of plays. Last year James, on the other hand, and on a significantly better team in a deeper league (93-94 is no one's idea of a golden era to my knowledge), shot 60.5%, rebounded 12.6%, and assisted 33.6% while using 32.0% of his team's possessions and turning over 13.3% of the time. They had roughly equal defensive ratings (James being a bit better), for what that's worth, and were both 1st team all-defense. In other words, James was a substantially more efficient player, while using far more plays, on a much better team, in a tougher era. Pippen would also give up 30 pounds based on listed figures (I would guess a bit more eyeballing it). Anyway, the point is, a team playing Pippen guarding James is giving up a lot, and this is no knock on Pippen at all--it's a testament to how good James really is.

Seriously, I understand people don't like James, but people need to get past it when evaluating teams. Even this so-called "will to win" point is grossly overstated. At the age Lebron James is right now (27), Michael Jordan had zero titles and zero finals appearances versus James's one and three, respectively. Placing James in the same league as Pippen, as great as he was, is just not right.

Well, I wrote the comparison Jordan, Magic, Pippen versus LeBron, Kobe, KD is that specific order for a reason ;)

vick
07-15-2012, 11:55 PM
Well, I wrote the comparison Jordan, Magic, Pippen versus LeBron, Kobe, KD is that specific order for a reason ;)

Haha, yeah that's fine. I mean I honestly don't know how the matchup would work with the evolution of the game from post-oriented to faster but smaller (I actually agree with the people who argue 1996 is underrated--I think talent-wise it's probably equal or superior to 1992 at every position but shooting guard, which it is admittedly far below). 2012 is also far more versatile, for what it's worth, which might make a 7 game series look different than a single match. I just think people (not saying you) often let their animus toward LeBron James blind them to how unbelievably good the man is at basketball. Pippen was great, but if you match up by position, Bryant gives up much less to Jordan than Pippen to James.

Starter
07-16-2012, 09:24 AM
Haha, yeah that's fine. I mean I honestly don't know how the matchup would work with the evolution of the game from post-oriented to faster but smaller (I actually agree with the people who argue 1996 is underrated--I think talent-wise it's probably equal or superior to 1992 at every position but shooting guard, which it is admittedly far below). 2012 is also far more versatile, for what it's worth, which might make a 7 game series look different than a single match. I just think people (not saying you) often let their animus toward LeBron James blind them to how unbelievably good the man is at basketball. Pippen was great, but if you match up by position, Bryant gives up much less to Jordan than Pippen to James.

I do think people let their enmity toward LeBron James cloud their opinions at times, though I'd think this most recent NBA Finals would take care of at least some of that. But I have three LeBron James posters up in my apartment -- it's a wonder I got engaged -- and I'll still take 1992 every day and twice on Sunday.

I also think Pippen is rated about right, provided that you rate him as a totally awesome basketball player. Obviously, there are some players you're not just going to shut down. I think all you really hope to have happen against players like LeBron or Jordan is for someone to at least slow them down, make them work, give them a hard time. Personally, I have little doubt the '92 Pippen could at least do that against the '12 LeBron. (I admit, this discussion feels a little silly at times without the logistics to make it happen. I'd imagine we have enough genius engineers here -- not me, I was an English major -- can't we get a time machine built? I'd also like to go back and hang out with Babe Ruth. That guy was crazy!)

I agree with you that the talent level on the 1996 team was overwhelming. I mean, at center alone, they had Olajuwon, Robinson and Shaq. Grant and Penny graduated from the select team... they were loaded. Still, I tend to think 1992 would win, even with so many common players, since on top of their talent, the amazing thing was how cohesive they all were on the court due to mutual respect and years of competing against each other. Barkley was on both teams and doesn't mince words; if he says the chemistry sucked on the second team, I believe it. Plus, you could only really play one of those centers at a time, at least in theory -- I seem to remember something that Shaq was furious he wasn't playing more in the Gold Medal game, while Robinson was basically the best player on the court that day.

Billy Dat
07-16-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm picking up Jack McCallum's new Dream Team book this week, here's an interesting account of his interview with C.Laettner.

http://www.jackmccallum.net/2012/06/10/behind-the-interviews-laettner/#.UARfMJG5vag

Billy Dat
07-16-2012, 03:32 PM
When I envision the debate, I envision both teams being put on the court as they appeared at the time - 1992 and 2012, and I picture a one time gold medal game.

http://www.strat-o-matic.com/community/announcements/1992-dream-team-vs-2012-team-usa-basketball-simulation

The Strat-o-Matic simulation has 1992 winning 4 games to 1, but the 2012 winning game 1. See...I was right!!!! ;)

Billy Dat
07-25-2012, 02:57 PM
FYI, the Jack McCallum Dream Team book is great (even if he, McCallum, to me, via his tone and comments, comes off as a bit of a schmuck), I am about 2/3rds through. On his blog, he is writing up accounts of each Dream Team interview, like the Laettner one I posted a few posts back. Anyway, here's a take from the Mullin interview that I thought everyone would appreciate...you'd have looked great in Cameron, Mullie...

http://www.jackmccallum.net/2012/06/30/behind-the-interviews-mullin/#.UBA8iaC5vag
"But here’s something that isn’t. One of the few times Mullin was expansive about himself was in talking about his college recruitment in the early 1980s. Mike Krzyzewski was after him hot and heavy for Duke. Krzyzewski had just arrived in Durham, and he saw the lefty from Xaverian High as one of the centerpieces—perhaps the centerpiece—in a march toward greatness. Mullin was tempted to head to Tobacco Road, as so many New York stars had done in the past. But in the end he chose to stay home, at St. John’s, where he helped put the Big East on the basketball map.

“New York, the East is … who I am,” Mullin told me. “When I was recruited Coach K had just gotten there and I knew he was going to do great things. And to this day I do wonder, if I had gone to Duke, what would’ve happened to me? I don’t know, but it would’ve been something different. Maybe I would’ve been a better … “ He voice dies off.

“A better what?” I ask.

[redacted for copyright]

juise
07-25-2012, 04:32 PM
[redacted for copyright]

Nice placement, -jk. You left just enough to make make me click the link.