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oldnavy
07-09-2012, 02:51 AM
Nice to see more info on this. The article makes lot of senses. Things do not add up. Teachers do not spend the time that it would take to teach 60 students one on one for nothing. If this was done correcctly, having taught residents before the amount of time involved would be astronomical if the student was expected to learn or even produce work. The time just to meet with the student, say 60 minutes once a week ... and this just doesn't make any sense at all. Either Nyang’oro is one of the most generious people of all time or something is rotten in Denmark.

Obviousluy UNC has no vested interest in getting to the truth (hmmmm wonder why). If matching up students to courses taken is difficult for UNC, then they actually have much larger prolems over there than this AFAM studies issues.

I think if the SBI stays interested in the whole mess we are going to discover a very interesting and perhaps intensive paper mill for athletes at the bottom of this pile of manure.

I thing the main questions is how interested will the SBI remain in this? This has now become a political affair and you all know how they can turn given the powers to be in the political seats of power.

slower
07-09-2012, 08:23 AM
Ahem...you may want to spell check your title. Just sayin'.

moonpie23
07-09-2012, 08:30 AM
it will get tossed around, raved about and then buried....


they're not gonna do anything to "the flagship"

OldPhiKap
07-09-2012, 09:34 AM
it will get tossed around, raved about and then buried....


they're not gonna do anything to "the flagship"

As much as I dislike the Tar Heels, I have always thought that there are SOME over there that believe in institutional integrity and academic honesty. Surely, there are some voices over there that will want to get to the bottom of this.

JasonEvans
07-09-2012, 09:47 AM
By the way, the new article from the N&O that has inspired this conversation can be found here. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/08/2185765/at-unc-no-show-classes-mostly.html)

I have a question about these summer school "no show" classes. They appear to be classes where there was no classroom/lecture given nor was there any assigned work other than a term paper. Does that make much sense to all of you? That a student could get full credit for a class by merely writing one term paper. What is the student really learning from that? I suppose the student might be meeting extensively with the professor on the side and talking about the content of the term paper, but it sure seems to me like a sorta lame academic exercise.

--Jason "I doubt these term papers were of the extreme research variety such as a dissertation" Evans

roywhite
07-09-2012, 11:14 AM
By the way, the new article from the N&O that has inspired this conversation can be found here. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/08/2185765/at-unc-no-show-classes-mostly.html)

I have a question about these summer school "no show" classes. They appear to be classes where there was no classroom/lecture given nor was there any assigned work other than a term paper. Does that make much sense to all of you? That a student could get full credit for a class by merely writing one term paper. What is the student really learning from that? I suppose the student might be meeting extensively with the professor on the side and talking about the content of the term paper, but it sure seems to me like a sorta lame academic exercise.

--Jason "I doubt these term papers were of the extreme research variety such as a dissertation" Evans

More a desertion of standards than a dissertation.

miramar
07-09-2012, 11:41 AM
I have a question about these summer school "no show" classes. They appear to be classes where there was no classroom/lecture given nor was there any assigned work other than a term paper. Does that make much sense to all of you? That a student could get full credit for a class by merely writing one term paper. What is the student really learning from that? I suppose the student might be meeting extensively with the professor on the side and talking about the content of the term paper, but it sure seems to me like a sorta lame academic exercise.

--Jason "I doubt these term papers were of the extreme research variety such as a dissertation" Evans

Based on the article, I'm not sure they even had to do a paper:

"University officials say the students were given an assignment, which they were to turn in at the end of the course."

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/08/2185765/at-unc-no-show-classes-mostly.html#storylink=cpy

An assignment could be just about anything, or perhaps just about nothing, much like Jim Harrick Jr.'s class at Georgia:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/quiz/_/id/600

gumbomoop
07-09-2012, 12:25 PM
As much as I dislike the Tar Heels, I have always thought that there are SOME over there that believe in institutional integrity and academic honesty. Surely, there are some voices over there that will want to get to the bottom of this.

This point - surely someone over there believes in academic integrity - is very important to me, too. Wanting the Heels to Go to Hell in basketball, I don't want this excellent university to become an academic laughingstock. I've posted in a previous thread my hope that some on the faculty would come forth.

It seems a few have, publicly, for in the N/O article we read that "Willis Brooks and Jay Smith, two UNC-CH history professors ... are concerned about the case’s impact on the university’s academic integrity...." I'll guess more than a few have protested this scam behind the scenes, which is necessary but hardly sufficient. I have no idea exactly what faculty governance bodies have done, but they have to speak publicly, both to condemn the scam and defend other members of the department, several of whom were themselves defrauded [forged signatures, changed grades].

Another good sign: "Current and former UNC-CH officials say they can’t recall a worse case of academic fraud at the university, considered one of the nation’s top public schools."

OTOH, others are still blowing smokescreens: "Top leaders at UNC-CH and the UNC system, however, say athletics weren’t at the heart of the academic fraud, because nonathletes were in the suspect classes," This assertion does not pass the laugh test. While I'm certain the vast majority of UNC faculty members know this, I wait for them to speak, firmly and forthrightly.

BD80
07-09-2012, 12:49 PM
... I wait for them to speak, firmly and forthrightly.

2702

Kewlswim
07-09-2012, 07:18 PM
Hi,

Cover-ups usually end worse for the institution or individual than forthrightness. If there are shenanigans occurring at UNC the basketball department, athletic department, academic institution or any combination thereof they should come forward and tell the truth, take their medicine and move on...because if they don't and it turns into a "cover-up" scandal it will be even worse and potentially make a mountain out of something that could have been corrected with minimal pain.

As much as I hate the tar heels on the court, I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible. I also think this sort of thing is hurting Duke because people think the ACC is a hot bed for academic cheating. I was told, not that long ago, that the reason Cal-Berkeley can't get good basketball players is that at Cal they learn they have to go to class and at places like Duke (yes they guy said Duke and everyone around--except me--shook their heads in agreement) and others in the ACC academics for athletes is a joke. We all know this is false, but perception can be a strong thing and schools in our conference not living up to a high standard affects us all. By the way, I asked how many people were certain Duke kids weren't going to class and how they knew that was true? Nobody had an answer beyond the usual it is Duke baloney. Furthermore, I wonder if they weren't mixing Duke with Arizona State...those Devils were even involved in point shaving and, er um, are in the Pac 12 with Cal.

GO DUKE!

weezie
07-09-2012, 09:25 PM
I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible.


Wouldn't bother me in the slightest Kewl. If they cheated, hang 'em high.
Duke is subjected to stringent and serious standards, observation and endless criticism. You can bet the farm that if Duke tried to pull the baloney that's going on at the hole in the mound, Duke would be dipped and fried in a strange batter, regardless of what a few whiners at, uh, cal-berkeley might be fantasizing. (And since when does anyone care what they think about sports? What do they play there, Varsity Dungeons and Dragons? Mixed Doubles Simcity?)

To hell with the hole in the mound.

moonpie23
07-09-2012, 10:58 PM
Hi,



I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible.

GO DUKE!

i'm not seeing the down side here....

wilko
07-09-2012, 11:48 PM
i'm not seeing the down side here....

Me neither.

oldnavy
07-10-2012, 06:52 AM
Me neither.

Count me in as well. (BTW, I cannot spell, never could, never will at this point in my life. The only time I care is when it is an important document and I don't consider anything I say on this board as important, but thanks for pointing it out).

Back to the point. I used to pull for the ACC as a whole, but that was before the whole Duke Hate thing began. I cannot pinpoint the time, but it was late 90's maybe. When it seemed like the ACC turned its back on Duke, then the rest of the country, and for what being successful and NOT cheating.

Well I hope they find so much cheating and cover-up at UNC that it makes National Headlines and lead stories on the network news.

This goes against my grain in a way since I am not typically a vengeful type, but I am fed up with UNC and their Holier than Thou "Carolina Way" B.S.

I am doubtful that much will come of this, UNC has a pretty good choke hold on the power structure in this state, so it may take an outsider to bust it open, like a Sports Illustrated or ESPN, or something equal... but that is doubtful as well given the cash cow UNC is to their companies, but it could happen.

But as far as caring for their reputation, I don’t, not even one tiny little bit.

I would love to see something happen that would humble that crowd, but for the life of me I cannot imagine anything that would humble that crowd…. Can anyone?

moonpie23
07-10-2012, 08:28 AM
I would love to see something happen that would humble that crowd, but for the life of me I cannot imagine anything that would humble that crowd…. Can anyone?

vacate the 05 and 09....roy fired, thorpe fired, criminal indictments....some folks go to jail and all the wins from the beginning of those bogus courses vacated....football AND basketball.


might not "humble" them......but i'd say they would give them an H-U to start with....

ForkFondler
07-10-2012, 08:41 AM
vacate the 05 and 09....roy fired, thorpe fired, criminal indictments....some folks go to jail and all the wins from the beginning of those bogus courses vacated....football AND basketball.


might not "humble" them......but i'd say they would give them an H-U to start with....


Vacate the Helms!!! Make them give up a trophy they didn't even win. That would hit 'em where it hurts.

OldPhiKap
07-10-2012, 08:54 AM
Vacate the Helms!!! Make them give up a trophy they didn't even win. That would hit 'em where it hurts.

I just spit coffee on my keyboard. Excellent.

walras
07-10-2012, 09:45 AM
One missing piece seems crucial.
Those of us who are very familiar with academic departments understand the role of the department administrator, the staff person who works for the chair of the department and handles most all of the day to day operations. In small departments like AAS at UNC, that person will often create the schedules, register the students, certify the courses, obtain the rooms, and so on. That person at UNC has resigned, and the university cannot it seems compel her (given her refusal to speak at all) to give any evidence to their investigators. Only the SBI, with subpoena powers, will ever get an interview with her.

It may be the case that she liked athletes and wanted her boys to succeed. Or there may be racial issues involved (who were the favored students?) etc. The fact that the chair was not paid for those independent study classes with his name on them suggests there was no financial trail that UNC internal audit could track, and prosecute.

Cherchez la femme.

Nepos
07-10-2012, 10:37 AM
But as far as caring for their reputation, I don’t, not even one tiny little bit.

I would love to see something happen that would humble that crowd, but for the life of me I cannot imagine anything that would humble that crowd…. Can anyone?

Some thoughts from a person with degrees from both schools, who has lived in either Chapel Hill or Durham for over 25 years:

- Not sure which school's alums would win an arrogance contest, but both would certainly qualify for the national tournament each year. I think both schools have lots to feel proud about, but humility is not a strength at either school.

- I think the schools are highly reliant on each other as they compete for the top students, faculty and staff across the country. The strength of one helps the other. This is probably least important for student recruitment, but is definitely the case for post-docs, faculty and academic staff who consider collaborative opportunities and the intellectual climate of the area when making choices about their careers. This, of course, has a large indirect impact on the competition for promising students.

- Durham and Chapel Hill are highly reliant on the strengths of both schools (and the schools benefit from the strengths of the cities). Durham's economic and "hip" growth over the past 10-15 years has definitely been influenced by Duke, but UNC's strength has also helped Durham.

- In short, like it or not (definitely not), the stength of Duke, UNC, Durham, and Chapel Hill is all tied together. Rooting against UNC and hating the arrogance of their fans is all part of the fun of the rivalry, but I encourage you also to consider that we benefit from their strength (especially regarding academic prowess and integrity).

elvis14
07-10-2012, 10:38 AM
As much as I hate the tar heels on the court, I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible. I also think this sort of thing is hurting Duke because people think the ACC is a hot bed for academic cheating.

I'd love to see UNC@CH brought to it's knees because of this issue. They have been caught cheating....AGAIN. Their fans are annoying and outnumber Duke fans 1000 to 1 in this state. I try not to argue with them anymore but every now and then I slip up and get an earful of rhetoric and myth (not facts) that reminds me how much I enjoy every bad thing that can happen to UNC athletics (outside of serious injuries).

I think it was on Facebook but it might have been on DBR where I read "Don't argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience". Replace "idiots" with UNC fans and there you go!

I don't think UNC cheating paints Duke with the same brush at all.

gumbomoop
07-10-2012, 11:09 AM
This point - surely someone over there believes in academic integrity - is very important to me, too. Wanting the Heels to Go to Hell in basketball, I don't want this excellent university to become an academic laughingstock. I've posted in a previous thread my hope that some on the faculty would come forth.

OTOH, others are still blowing smokescreens: "Top leaders at UNC-CH and the UNC system, however, say athletics weren’t at the heart of the academic fraud, because nonathletes were in the suspect classes," This assertion does not pass the laugh test. While I'm certain the vast majority of UNC faculty members know this, I wait for them to speak, firmly and forthrightly.


As much as I hate the tar heels on the court, I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible.


Wouldn't bother me in the slightest Kewl. If they cheated, hang 'em high.
Duke is subjected to stringent and serious standards, observation and endless criticism. You can bet the farm that if Duke tried to pull the baloney that's going on at the hole in the mound, Duke would be dipped and fried in a strange batter....To hell with the hole in the mound.


i'm not seeing the down side here....


Count me in as well.... I used to pull for the ACC as a whole, but that was before the whole Duke Hate thing began. I cannot pinpoint the time, but it was late 90's maybe. When it seemed like the ACC turned its back on Duke, then the rest of the country, and for what being successful and NOT cheating.

Well I hope they find so much cheating and cover-up at UNC that it makes National Headlines and lead stories on the network news.

This goes against my grain in a way since I am not typically a vengeful type, but I am fed up with UNC and their Holier than Thou "Carolina Way" B.S.


I'd love to see UNC@CH brought to it's knees because of this issue. They have been caught cheating....AGAIN. Their fans are annoying and outnumber Duke fans 1000 to 1 in this state.

These posts represent a "theme" [??] on EK: the intensity-levels of hatred of Carolina. Although Kewlswim is in no way responsible for my analysis here, the first 2 tag quotes represent a kind of soft hatred of Heeldom, whereas the last 4 represent something more severe.

Not the first time I've seen this, and I've tentatively concluded these hatred-intensity-levels are probably a function of proximity to Heel fans. Because I have almost no interaction with the "Carolina Way," I hate 'em only in a generic sense. For me, it's intense enough. as it's arguably the most intense rivalry in American sports. But I experience the intensity only from afar, whereas many EK posters deal with it up close and personally.

And I "understand" this, conceptually, because it's easy enough to see that living among so many Heels would be highly irritating. Admittedly however, those of us who do not have to put up with Carolina-Way-Crap on a daily/weekly basis actually don't fully understand it, because we don't live in it.

So, understanding that I probably can't fully understand because I don't live the intensity, I acknowledge the correctness [??] of the "no down side here" viewpoint. [Not that any of you - nor the many other EK posters so inclined - need my approval.] Further, as I've said in several posts, the continued silence of most UNC faculty - in view of the fact that their own colleagues have been undermined, and in the face of statements that do not pass the laugh test - inclines me to move toward the conclusion that this great institution isn't so great these days.

moonpie23
07-10-2012, 11:14 AM
- Not sure which school's alums would win an arrogance contest, but both would certainly qualify for the national tournament each year.


there IS a difference though......very simply put.

duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that.....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance....

chaosmage
07-10-2012, 11:46 AM
The UNC arrogance is everywhere. There are very few Duke fans out here in SoCal, at least in my circles. I know of one, a student of mine, great kid who graduated and will hopefully make it through college. It was enjoyable to watch him mature as a fan under my tutelage. The UNC fans here? Just as "entitled" as the ones in NC. All I heard this year was how "Marshall's injury" and "those thugs at Creighton (?)" robbed them.

I wrote initially a very long essay on my aunt and uncle, both graduates, but realized it was a lot of anger at them as much as it was UNC arrogance. It is, because of the way they and other fans act. Transitive property and all that. Suffice it to say that once I was old enough to watch and really get B-ball, and decided I liked Duke better, then it has ALWAYS been a bone of contention in my family, and my "standing" with the two of them has plummeted. Never speak first at family gatherings, never ask how I'm doing until there is NOTHING else to talk about, etc.

Without going too much more into it, unless you ask, it is highly true of the arrogance of their graduates that I have met or known. I would hesitate to even BRING UP this mess to my family, for the sheer fact of the "poking the bear" rather than creating a serious discussion. They still see me as pulling for Duke as a form of betrayal, which I now wear PROUDLY! :p

So to hell with the Holes, and down with the whole place!

killerleft
07-10-2012, 11:48 AM
These posts represent a "theme" [??] on EK: the intensity-levels of hatred of Carolina. Although Kewlswim is in no way responsible for my analysis here, the first 2 tag quotes represent a kind of soft hatred of Heeldom, whereas the last 4 represent something more severe.

Not the first time I've seen this, and I've tentatively concluded these hatred-intensity-levels are probably a function of proximity to Heel fans. Because I have almost no interaction with the "Carolina Way," I hate 'em only in a generic sense. For me, it's intense enough. as it's arguably the most intense rivalry in American sports. But I experience the intensity only from afar, whereas many EK posters deal with it up close and personally.

And I "understand" this, conceptually, because it's easy enough to see that living among so many Heels would be highly irritating. Admittedly however, those of us who do not have to put up with Carolina-Way-Crap on a daily/weekly basis actually don't fully understand it, because we don't live in it.

So, understanding that I probably can't fully understand because I don't live the intensity, I acknowledge the correctness [??] of the "no down side here" viewpoint. [Not that any of you - nor the many other EK posters so inclined - need my approval.] Further, as I've said in several posts, the continued silence of most UNC faculty - in view of the fact that their own colleagues have been undermined, and in the face of statements that do not pass the laugh test - inclines me to move toward the conclusion that this great institution isn't so great these days.

Well, there's also the feeling that the big ol' state university down the road has been beating us regularly in football, but has had to resort to using players either channeled into "classes" expressly created to keep them eligible, or that they just decided to attend on their own. Why should those less-than-honest Tar Heels get to ring that Victory Bell (unless they call it the "Cheaters Bell")?

I say that if UNC can't beat us fair and square, then they need to finally "man up" and take some serious punishment that they apparently deserve. And that goes for any other cheatin', lyin', and ill-begotten-gainin' institutions out there.

Is that really harsh? I don't think so.

Nepos
07-10-2012, 11:48 AM
there IS a difference though......very simply put.

duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that.....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance....

I get it, and see that there is some truth to this distinction (though there are tons of UNC bball fans that fall into your first category, and tons of Duke fans that fall into your second category).

On the other hand, you may see the kernel of truth in the following statement (heard on the streets of CH):

UNC fans WANT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes, Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes. There's arrogance, and then there's Duke arrogance.

To me, both sets of fans are pretty darn arrogant about their basketball and their academics -- probably because both schools have been highly successful in both areas. To me, both sets of fans would be wise to acknowledge that some of their strength in these areas is due to the strength of their neighbors. I suggest that UNC's current academic fiasco does nothing to help Duke, and arguably hurts Duke.

OldPhiKap
07-10-2012, 12:31 PM
there IS a difference though......very simply put.

duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that.....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance....


I think this is an argument that most of the country looks at, and says "they deserve each other."

We may have a different type of arrogance, but we've got the tank full too.



We have many great attributes. Humility is not one of them.

MulletMan
07-10-2012, 01:12 PM
We have many great attributes. Humility is not one of them.

Fact. Listen, anyone who thinks that these fan bases are distinctly different are sadly mistaken. Yes, there are probably more UNC fans than Duke fans, but the fact is that the demographics of both groups are remarkably similar across the state.

The only difference is the shade of Blue they are rooting for. That's it. You're not talking about Kentucky fans who openly admit to not caring about how dirty Cal is... you're talking about UNC fans. They hate K, some with begrudging admiration. We hate Dean, some with begrudging admiration. Everyone hates Roy... true, really.

Acymetric
07-10-2012, 01:42 PM
Fact. Listen, anyone who thinks that these fan bases are distinctly different are sadly mistaken. Yes, there are probably more UNC fans than Duke fans, but the fact is that the demographics of both groups are remarkably similar across the state.

The only difference is the shade of Blue they are rooting for. That's it. You're not talking about Kentucky fans who openly admit to not caring about how dirty Cal is... you're talking about UNC fans. They hate K, some with begrudging admiration. We hate Dean, some with begrudging admiration. Everyone hates Roy... true, really.

Did anyone else's mind immediately jump to Butch Davis? Seriously, I'm surprised they haven't erected a statue of him right on the 50 yard line. Will he be at the home games again this year?

75Crazie
07-10-2012, 01:53 PM
On the other hand, you may see the kernel of truth in the following statement (heard on the streets of CH):

UNC fans WANT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes, Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes. There's arrogance, and then there's Duke arrogance.
I would instead word the second phrase as "Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be prototypical scholar-athletes". If that is true, then absence of perception is the problem of the perceptor. If this attitude makes me arrogant, so be it. I prefer to see it as a validation of the concept that a person accepted into college should be a student.

elvis14
07-10-2012, 02:00 PM
Fact. Listen, anyone who thinks that these fan bases are distinctly different are sadly mistaken. Yes, there are probably more UNC fans than Duke fans, but the fact is that the demographics of both groups are remarkably similar across the state.

The only difference is the shade of Blue they are rooting for. That's it. You're not talking about Kentucky fans who openly admit to not caring about how dirty Cal is... you're talking about UNC fans. They hate K, some with begrudging admiration. We hate Dean, some with begrudging admiration. Everyone hates Roy... true, really.

To me, there are two distinct differences. First UNC@CH fans hate Duke as much or more than they love their own team. Secondly, and more importantly, my main issue with the UNC@CH fans that I am confronted with every day isn't that they hate Duke it's that they give no credit or respect to ANY other basketball program. If they lose, it's not because the other team played well, it's because UNC messed up, of course. Austin Rivers didn't hit a great shot, Zeller played bad defense....he could have easily swatted that shot into the 4th row!

I don't see that in Duke fans. Are some of us spoiled by success? Sure. Do some lack humility? Sure. But I don't nor have I ever gotten the sense that Duke fans have zero respect for any and every team without "DUKE" on their jersey.

To get somewhat back on topic, I think it's interesting to watch how these issues get handled by UNC and by the local (UNC-lovin') media. Heck even by ESPN (also UNC-lovin'). Will UNC succeed in sweeping this under the rug? Are we going to see more 'resignations'? Is the NCAA going to hammer them? I don't know the answers but it's going to be fun finding out and I know which way I hope to see it go!

Jderf
07-10-2012, 02:08 PM
On a related tangent, I remember someone around here wrote a post a while back which kept a running tally of the various funny (and sad) "mini scandals" that have all been sequentially subsumed into this on-going, all-encompassing, super scandal. If I recall, it had a few good links too.

Anybody care to find and/or update it? My search efforts keep coming up dry. And I have just a feeling there would be a few pitchforks in it for ya, whoever you might be.

grit74
07-10-2012, 02:14 PM
To get somewhat back on topic, I think it's interesting to watch how these issues get handled by UNC and by the local (UNC-lovin') media. Heck even by ESPN (also UNC-lovin'). Will UNC succeed in sweeping this under the rug? Are we going to see more 'resignations'? Is the NCAA going to hammer them? I don't know the answers but it's going to be fun finding out and I know which way I hope to see it go!

The latest from Dan Kane reported that for 9 or so classes the listed instructor claimed they did not teach the class. That alone seems like enough to justify suspicions that there is fraud here, beyond any "lax" standards.

Duvall
07-10-2012, 02:17 PM
To me, both sets of fans are pretty darn arrogant about their basketball and their academics -- probably because both schools have been highly successful in both areas. To me, both sets of fans would be wise to acknowledge that some of their strength in these areas is due to the strength of their neighbors. I suggest that UNC's current academic fiasco does nothing to help Duke, and arguably hurts Duke.

To be fair, I think it's possible to acknowledge that UNC's academic wrongdoing hurts both UNC and its rival institutions, and to believe that the best way to remedy that wrongdoing is for the full truth to be uncovered and for UNC to face the consequences of its actions, including punishments that would deter future misconduct.

BD80
07-10-2012, 02:24 PM
Some thoughts from a person with degrees from both schools,... humility is not a strength at either school. ...

Amen. unc basketball players were more fluent in Swahili than any graduate of either school in humility. I simply believe, very strongly, Dukies have just cause.


I'd love to see UNC@CH brought to it's knees because of this issue. ...

I hope the SBI treats unc like the unc frat boys treated Reggie Love when he over-indulged in chapel hill (I wonder how many of those good ol' boys have jobs in the current administration?)

oldnavy
07-11-2012, 07:18 AM
To be fair, I think it's possible to acknowledge that UNC's academic wrongdoing hurts both UNC and its rival institutions, and to believe that the best way to remedy that wrongdoing is for the full truth to be uncovered and for UNC to face the consequences of its actions, including punishments that would deter future misconduct.

I am trying to make the connection on how UNC cheating reflects poorly on anyone other than UNC.... help me understand by explaining this a little more please, seriously, want to hear you out.

When I talk of UNC arrogance, there are two different groups. One is the institutional arrogance the University has, which I have experienced up close and personal after graduating from there and then applying later for grad school.... you wouldn't (well maybe you would) believe how much they thought of their PharmD. program and how dare I bother them with an application one year out. Long story, but I was applying for a Navy program that required due to transfer, etc... a letter from a school just saying you met the requirements for acceptance into the class a year out from current one. I did NOT need a letter of acceptance, just a letter saying that I meet the requirements and would be considered. UNC couldn't be bothered by that, but I sure as heck got those alumni pleas for money every six months!! (BTW, went to Campbell for the PharmD., better people, better education!, nuff said).

Second is the arrogance or rather irrationality of the average UNC fan. Now I have met some, but I must say VERY few irrational Duke fans, but MOST UNC fans I meet are irrational... you simply cannot have a rational discussion with them about anything related to basketball. Invariably they want to turn the conversation around to how they got hosed and Duke gets all the calls….

jdj4duke
07-11-2012, 02:55 PM
I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

It's just ceaseless.

I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.

Indoor66
07-11-2012, 03:04 PM
I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

It's just ceaseless.

I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.

I have read your post and am confused. Why are you still in that family or attending family events? :cool:

gumbomoop
07-11-2012, 03:36 PM
I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

It's just ceaseless.

I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.

Excellent post, and a prime example of why I personally [post #21 in this thread] both "understand" what it must be like to be surrounded by the Carolina Way and yet have no clue as to what living with this crap is like.

Your account - and those of other posters similarly situated - is an eye-opener. And I mean it.

I'd pray for you, but as I am a Devil and God is, apparently, a Heel, it might not work. And I don't mean it.

weezie
07-11-2012, 04:43 PM
...their socks were too thick...

Ah, well, here we find a truly legitimate and well-reasoned excuse. Poor, poor thick sock-wearing heels. Just the imagery is enough to make one weep.

How about another heart-warming tale: my mother-in-law refusing to put a Duke Grandparent sticker on her car when her grand-daughter (my niece) got in?
Granny probably noticed my death stare combined with a pleasant rictus smile.

Uh-oh, I sense this thread is about to get re-directed to the matter at hand. :p

chrishoke
07-11-2012, 04:59 PM
Did anyone else's mind immediately jump to Butch Davis? Seriously, I'm surprised they haven't erected a statue of him right on the 50 yard line. Will he be at the home games again this year?

Yes he will be - his son recently accepted a football scholarship offer to attend UNC.

OldPhiKap
07-11-2012, 05:01 PM
I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

It's just ceaseless.

I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.

Clearly, the post of the week.

Mike Corey
07-11-2012, 06:19 PM
I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

2705

Kidding aside, I greatly admire your willingness and ability to take the higher road, again and again. Thanks for sharing your story.

oldnavy
07-11-2012, 06:20 PM
UNC seriously needs to consider moving to the SEC... seriously.

BD80
07-11-2012, 06:45 PM
UNC seriously needs to consider moving to the SEC... seriously.

Shouldn't we wait a bit until we see where the scandal leads? unc may not have the academic credibility to make it in the SEC!

oldnavy
07-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Shouldn't we wait a bit until we see where the scandal leads? unc may not have the academic credibility to make it in the SEC!

Good point. I think they should just dissolve the university.

Indoor66
07-11-2012, 07:18 PM
Good point. I think they should just dissolve the university.

Burn all the buildings and sow the ground with salt. That'll show them. Then it can be, truly, The Dump of the Hump!

weezie
07-11-2012, 08:24 PM
Burn all the buildings and sow the ground with salt. That'll show them. Then it can be, truly, The Dump of the Hump!

Now now, Indoor, mustn't come across on a whole 'nother level of distaste!!!
You might offend someone! :eek:
Maybe the "Stump on the Hump" might sound more apropos after the conflagration.

I'll bring the marshmallows and cognac.

Indoor66
07-11-2012, 08:30 PM
Now now, Indoor, mustn't come across on a whole 'nother level of distaste!!!
You might offend someone! :eek:
Maybe the "Stump on the Hump" might sound more apropos after the conflagration.

I'll bring the marshmallows and cognac.

I might even take a swig of that cognac for that event.

ForkFondler
07-11-2012, 09:16 PM
Good point. I think they should just dissolve the university.

They could be the Chicago of the South; dissolve the university and keep the athletic programs.

OldPhiKap
07-11-2012, 09:36 PM
They could be the Chicago of the South; dissolve the university and keep the athletic programs.

"Chapel Hill Community College"

Newton_14
07-11-2012, 10:10 PM
Newly released emails and documentation detail the tutor (Jennifer Wiley) writing the bulk of some term paper assignments for the players, as well as players receiving improper benefits. One player had a requirement to write a 10 page paper but could only come up with 2.5 pages. Wiley writes in an email that she had "expanded" the paper to 8.5 pages, so he only had "1.5 more pages to go".

UNC released the redacted documents today after local media outlets had filed public records lawsuits. The reports also show UNC spent about $70K on lawyer fees during the 2010 NCAA investigation.

NBC-17 News Report (http://www2.nbc17.com/news/2012/jul/11/4/documents-related-unc-investigation-detail-player--ar-2425635/)

UrinalCake
07-11-2012, 10:23 PM
Wow, thanks for the link Newt, this is big news. Count me as one who will gladly watch UNC go down in flames. As long as they don't vacate that 82-50 loss from 2010. That was one of my favorite moments of all time.

OldPhiKap
07-11-2012, 10:39 PM
Newly released emails and documentation detail the tutor (Jennifer Wiley) writing the bulk of some term paper assignments for the players, as well as players receiving improper benefits. One player had a requirement to write a 10 page paper but could only come up with 2.5 pages. Wiley writes in an email that she had "expanded" the paper to 8.5 pages, so he only had "1.5 more pages to go".

UNC released the redacted documents today after local media outlets had filed public records lawsuits. The reports also show UNC spent about $70K on lawyer fees during the 2010 NCAA investigation.

NBC-17 News Report (http://www2.nbc17.com/news/2012/jul/11/4/documents-related-unc-investigation-detail-player--ar-2425635/)

Excellent, thanks for the link. For those of us outside of The Triangle, links like this are invaluable!

Jderf
07-11-2012, 10:44 PM
Wow, thanks for the link Newt, this is big news. Count me as one who will gladly watch UNC go down in flames. As long as they don't vacate that 82-50 loss from 2010. That was one of my favorite moments of all time.

As I understand it, only wins are vacated :)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

uh_no
07-11-2012, 10:56 PM
As I understand it, only wins are vacated :)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are not....and good thing....they had quite a few losses that year....so we can think of it as a less severe punishment that they hardly have any wins to vacate!

OldPhiKap
07-11-2012, 11:01 PM
As I understand it, only wins are vacated :)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think they change the score to 82 - 0. Which ain't much different.

mgtr
07-11-2012, 11:11 PM
UNC = University of No Character!

OldPhiKap
07-11-2012, 11:15 PM
UNC = University of No Character!

Ultimately Not Compliant.

DukeBlueDevil
07-11-2012, 11:55 PM
Wow, thanks for the link Newt, this is big news. Count me as one who will gladly watch UNC go down in flames. As long as they don't vacate that 82-50 loss from 2010. That was one of my favorite moments of all time.

Who cares if they vacate it? We still have recordings to watch of that game (and to show UNC fans the beautiful sight):D

sircyclops
07-12-2012, 01:09 AM
Hey folks,

Long time lurker, first time DBR poster here. I know this thread has changed course but I wanted to touch on some of the things that Nepos was bringing up earlier re: the interconnectedness of the two schools. As a life-long Duke fan (grew up in Durham the son of a Duke grad) who recently finished a professional degree at Carolina, I am just one of many, many people with legit affiliations to both schools, though not as strong perhaps as pals (and classmates) of mine with degrees from both places. I guess what really gets my goat about the Carolina culture is the extent to which anything Duke is cast as totally anathema, alien, "northern" when the symbiotic nature of the schools and the similarities (socioeconomically, if not always geographically) of the student bodies are pretty obvious, really, to anyone *from* the Triangle.

During my time at UNC, I was vocal about my affinity for the dark blue, and it caused some testy convos here and there, but mostly I was able to be cordial and have yuks with the other basketball nuts in the program. That said, I felt like certain individuals felt saw it as their right and duty as good stewards of the Carolina name to be downright nasty to me re: my Blue Devils. Admittedly, I may have, at times, made my bed, but having certain persons smirk at me/laugh in my face about player injuries (i.e. Kyrie) was way outta line and left me crying the driest of crocodile tears when Marshall broke his wrist, knee injuries happened, etc.

I disagree that this scandal in anyway taints the reputation of my degree from Carolina or somehow blows back on Duke's academic credentials, but that's just me. At the end of the day I do believe that this all mess has the potential to happen at any school involved in major revenue sports, and further underscores the often comic student-athlete proposition.

All that aside, as a Duke fan, I hope this hits the UNC basketball program and the snide Heels fans I've had to deal with throughout my life HARD. Its a weird compartmentalized world I live in with respect to UNC, but the Blue Devils fan in me wants to see those 05 and 09 come down!

sircyclops

ncexnyc
07-12-2012, 01:45 AM
I know I’m asking for trouble, but I’ve got to ask this question. Having read the UNC scandal thread as well as the Penn State thread. What makes all of you think that something like this couldn’t happen at Duke?

During my lifetime experiences serving 20 years in the Army and now working 19 years for a Fortune 500 corporation, I hold the view that large institutions have a very hard time policing themselves and that they often will look to take the easy way out when trouble rears its ugly head.

oldnavy
07-12-2012, 07:06 AM
I know I’m asking for trouble, but I’ve got to ask this question. Having read the UNC scandal thread as well as the Penn State thread. What makes all of you think that something like this couldn’t happen at Duke?

During my lifetime experiences serving 20 years in the Army and now working 19 years for a Fortune 500 corporation, I hold the view that large institutions have a very hard time policing themselves and that they often will look to take the easy way out when trouble rears its ugly head.

Easy, the man at the top of the program. Not to say an isolated incident could happen of some sordid type, but I would bet everything I own that K would take ownership of the issue and not rest until it was dealt with properly. No one at Duke would tell him how to handle a child abuse scandal in the BB program. Paterno's comment that he was told by administration NOT to hold a presser, would not happen at Duke. Well, K may be told that, but he would blow it off if he felt he needed to. It is all about the character and courage of the man at the top of the program and what they are willing to risk to do the right thing. I think K would give up everything he has rather than cover up or take a back seat in something of this magnitude.

I cannot say that is what JoePa did, I don't have the facts, but IMO, K would have handled it much different by taking command of the situation from the start.

With your time in the Army, you must have seen leaders like this. Leaders who did the right thing regardless of the impact on their careers. The ones you respected immediately, not the political kiss tails. You probably saw others that would do whatever they had to do to CYA. I know I did in the Navy. Fortunately the CYA'ers were in the minority in my experience.

Anything is possible, but I think the answer to your question is coach K, that is why it wouldn't have gone as far as it did at PSU.

moonpie23
07-12-2012, 08:13 AM
Who cares if they vacate it? We still have recordings to watch of that game (and to show UNC fans the beautiful sight):D

it's the only "television show" on my iPhone. I can watch any part of it on a moment's notice!

:)

OldPhiKap
07-12-2012, 09:18 AM
The best part of the show is the halftime, when Bobby Knight and Jay Bilas are giving Hubert Davis the business about the multiple cans of whoop-butt that were being opened by Duke.

moonpie23
07-12-2012, 09:48 AM
half time show not included with itunes edition.....:mad:

UrinalCake
07-12-2012, 09:51 AM
I also bought the game on iTunes and was bummed that they didn't include the halftime show. My favorite part was when Bobby Knight tears up his game notes and says he has no idea what UNC should do. My other favorite part of that night was getting on Inside Carolina and reading their in-game thread as we were ripping them apart.

flyingdutchdevil
07-12-2012, 09:54 AM
I know I’m asking for trouble, but I’ve got to ask this question. Having read the UNC scandal thread as well as the Penn State thread. What makes all of you think that something like this couldn’t happen at Duke?

During my lifetime experiences serving 20 years in the Army and now working 19 years for a Fortune 500 corporation, I hold the view that large institutions have a very hard time policing themselves and that they often will look to take the easy way out when trouble rears its ugly head.

Something like this has happened at Duke. Wikipedia refers to it as the 'Duke Lacrosse Case', but I think 'Scandal' is a more appropriate word.

As a junior/senior during this time, I can tell you that the Duke Lacrosse Scandal was devastating to the staff, the students, the alumni, the city of Durham, and certainly the athletic department.

Although innocent, the whole incident left a terrible scar on Duke athletics, which is why I think that a UNC-type case (or, God forbid, a PSU-type case) will not happen at Duke.

elvis14
07-12-2012, 10:26 AM
I know I’m asking for trouble, but I’ve got to ask this question. Having read the UNC scandal thread as well as the Penn State thread. What makes all of you think that something like this couldn’t happen at Duke?

During my lifetime experiences serving 20 years in the Army and now working 19 years for a Fortune 500 corporation, I hold the view that large institutions have a very hard time policing themselves and that they often will look to take the easy way out when trouble rears its ugly head.

Not asking for trouble, you've asked a legit question. My answer is this: first, I think it could happen at Duke or any large organization but I also think it's less likely to happen at Duke (for reasons others have already stated). Let's not forget the most important part of this whole thing, however: it DID happen at UNC@CH. It's not a question or hypothetical, they were caught cheating and no matter how many times their fans cover their eyes and ears and chant "I hate D**k", it should be brought to light and they should be punished and I should get to enjoy every second of that!

Lar77
07-12-2012, 10:51 AM
Not asking for trouble, you've asked a legit question. My answer is this: first, I think it could happen at Duke or any large organization but I also think it's less likely to happen at Duke (for reasons others have already stated). Let's not forget the most important part of this whole thing, however: it DID happen at UNC@CH. It's not a question or hypothetical, they were caught cheating and no matter how many times their fans cover their eyes and ears and chant "I hate D**k", it should be brought to light and they should be punished and I should get to enjoy every second of that!

No organization is immune to this type of problem. If it thinks it is, then it will someday have a problem. From a sports perspective, Duke has two things going for it: (1) our two revenue sports coaches clearly have high personal integrity and leadership that they have infused into their programs; (2) most, if not all, of our athletes and recruits see Duke as more than a highway to a pro career. That's not going to catch all problems before they occur, but it's a good start.

As for some of the other more recent posts on this thread, 82-50 was a glorious night! For Duke fans, for State fans, for Wake fans, and anyone else who wanted to see those guys taken down a peg. Didn't last long - not until Austin Rivers took the shot.:D

killerleft
07-12-2012, 11:09 AM
Not asking for trouble, you've asked a legit question. My answer is this: first, I think it could happen at Duke or any large organization but I also think it's less likely to happen at Duke (for reasons others have already stated). Let's not forget the most important part of this whole thing, however: it DID happen at UNC@CH. It's not a question or hypothetical, they were caught cheating and no matter how many times their fans cover their eyes and ears and chant "I hate D**k", it should be brought to light and they should be punished and I should get to enjoy every second of that!

As flyingdutchdevil noted above, such a scandal has happened at Duke, barely 6 years ago. It was a 'coyotes guarding the henhouse' sorta thing as it relates to the Penn State case. The coaches weren't the problem in Durham, though.

Duvall
07-12-2012, 11:35 AM
I know I’m asking for trouble, but I’ve got to ask this question. Having read the UNC scandal thread as well as the Penn State thread. What makes all of you think that something like this couldn’t happen at Duke?

During my lifetime experiences serving 20 years in the Army and now working 19 years for a Fortune 500 corporation, I hold the view that large institutions have a very hard time policing themselves and that they often will look to take the easy way out when trouble rears its ugly head.

I have no illusions about the infallibility of people that work for Duke University. But I do think that situations of this scale are less likely to occur at Duke, mainly because Duke will never enjoy the kind of external cocoon that would allow something like this to fester over a number of years. It's a lot harder for an institution to keep its wrongdoing secret when reporting information that paints that institution in an unfavorable light is such good business.

sircyclops
07-12-2012, 12:15 PM
I have no illusions about the infallibility of people that work for Duke University. But I do think that situations of this scale are less likely to occur at Duke, mainly because Duke will never enjoy the kind of external cocoon that would allow something like this to fester over a number of years. It's a lot harder for an institution to keep its wrongdoing secret when reporting information that paints that institution in an unfavorable light is such good business.

Seconded. The great thing about the proximity of three rival schools in such a small area is the way that they work as watch dogs for each other, not always with good intent, but the result is the same.

Was it last summer when Tar Heels were jumping all over Coach K for what was a minor (at most) infraction (if it was even determined to be so...)? Funny how recent trips to IC have yielded *nada* about the current state of affairs in the UNC athletics program. Maybe the yokels over there are in denial that BASKETBALL players were taking these shady classes? Regardless of how this all plays out, I consider this to be a major trump card for future "discussions" with UNC fans about the relative merits of both programs:D

God bless those Pack fans sifting through the muck to bring this to light!

Nepos
07-12-2012, 12:26 PM
Funny how recent trips to IC have yielded *nada* about the current state of affairs in the UNC athletics program. Maybe the yokels over there are in denial that BASKETBALL players were taking these shady classes?

The Daily Tar Heel has noticed the issue (though bball is not mentioned -- some things are sacred). Here is a link to the most prominent editorial in the current paper entitled "Athletic culture needs change: Athletic success should not come at the expense of academic rigor." http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012/07/4ffd8dee4d721

arnie
07-12-2012, 12:32 PM
Newly released emails and documentation detail the tutor (Jennifer Wiley) writing the bulk of some term paper assignments for the players, as well as players receiving improper benefits. One player had a requirement to write a 10 page paper but could only come up with 2.5 pages. Wiley writes in an email that she had "expanded" the paper to 8.5 pages, so he only had "1.5 more pages to go".

UNC released the redacted documents today after local media outlets had filed public records lawsuits. The reports also show UNC spent about $70K on lawyer fees during the 2010 NCAA investigation.

NBC-17 News Report (http://www2.nbc17.com/news/2012/jul/11/4/documents-related-unc-investigation-detail-player--ar-2425635/)

I don't have the link, but read the N&O version this morning.

UNC maintains that you can't "prove" from the emails that Jennifer Wiley did more than "re-format" the paper discussed above (although the original version by the athlete was double-spaced).

The UNC current AD says all students in the AFAM curricula were given assignments and completed those assignments.

UNC still maintains that the classes were setup for all students.

The uncovering of the UNC coverup by State fans and by the N&O will be a lot of fun - stay tuned.

OldPhiKap
07-12-2012, 01:12 PM
UNC maintains that you can't "prove" from the emails that Jennifer Wiley did more than "re-format" the paper discussed above (although the original version by the athlete was double-spaced).

"You can do a lot with font." -- J. Wiley

MulletMan
07-12-2012, 01:37 PM
Easy, the man at the top of the program.

No way people in State College were saying this about Paterno for the last 30 years.

sircyclops
07-12-2012, 01:46 PM
I stand corrected. A thread on IC about these shenanigans has finally emerged: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=9139039 A lotta "everyone cheats" excusing and pot shots at the academic credentials at State. When you have emeritus faculty claiming that this is the worst case of academic fraud in the university's history then I believe that this goes deeper than a couple of "crip" courses offered to atheletes...

Lennies
07-12-2012, 04:10 PM
Do the students that took these classes get to keep their degrees? Does the NCAA adjust their APR calculations?


Atakwenda motoni Carolina!

Jderf
07-12-2012, 04:36 PM
UNC maintains that you can't "prove" from the emails that Jennifer Wiley did more than "re-format" the paper discussed above (although the original version by the athlete was double-spaced).

The UNC current AD says all students in the AFAM curricula were given assignments and completed those assignments.

UNC still maintains that the classes were setup for all students.

The uncovering of the UNC coverup by State fans and by the N&O will be a lot of fun - stay tuned.

How can anyone possibly claim those things with a straight face? Did someone edit out all of the sarcastic laughter?

DukeBlueDevil
07-12-2012, 10:34 PM
it's the only "television show" on my iPhone. I can watch any part of it on a moment's notice!

:)

For me, it's that game and the 91 & 92 documentary. But what is the halftime show you're talking about? I didn't get to see the game live, owing to the fact that I don't have ESPN.

Newton_14
07-12-2012, 10:42 PM
For me, it's that game and the 91 & 92 documentary. But what is the halftime show you're talking about? I didn't get to see the game live, owing to the fact that I don't have ESPN.

Halftime was hilarious. Hubert was trying to do a normal, serious assessment as to what adjustments the losing team needed to make to get back into the game in the second half. Jay, Knight, and the rest balled up their papers and laughed, joking that the game was over shortly after it started. It made for great comedy. I still hate that Ginyard hit the 3 at the halftime buzzer to cut it from 30 to 27. I so wanted Duke to be up 30 at the half.

If you have never seen the halftime, find a copy of the game that has it. Well worth the trouble.

oldnavy
07-13-2012, 02:20 PM
No way people in State College were saying this about Paterno for the last 30 years.

They probably were.

Nothing in this life is sure thing, but the possibility of K allowing a known child predator access to his program for 11 years or more is probably along the lines of 10,000,000,000,000,000 to 1.

moonpie23
07-13-2012, 04:23 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/13/2196734/unc-legal-bills-are-467000-in.html


add butch's salary....don't forget.....they paid him...

oldnavy
07-13-2012, 05:05 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/13/2196734/unc-legal-bills-are-467000-in.html


add butch's salary....don't forget.....they paid him...

Hey they should have, he got them to the Independance Bowl!! And only had to start and SBI investigation to do it!!! I say money well spent... he could have been great if it weren't for those pesky NCAA rules and laws.

devildeac
07-13-2012, 10:49 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/13/2196734/unc-legal-bills-are-467000-in.html


add butch's salary....don't forget.....they paid him...

Your tax dollars at work right here in North Kackylacky.

PackMan97
07-14-2012, 03:51 PM
UNC-Cheated, Cal Tech put on probation. Someone has to pay for UNC's lack of academic standards.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/caltech-teams-faces-major-ncaa-sanctions-191456397--ncaab.html


The academic-oriented Division III school received a public reprimand, three years of probation and a 2012-13 postseason ban in men's basketball and 11 other sports for using 30 ineligible student-athletes the past four years.

At issue is Caltech's unique academic policy allowing students to shop for courses during a three-week period each quarter before cementing their class schedules. Since many students weren't registered for all the classes they attended during that period, that meant under NCAA rules they were not considered full-time students when they took the field.


The idea of Caltech fielding teams full of academically ineligible players is almost laughable considering the school's course load and monumentally high academic standards are often the biggest reasons the athletic department struggles. The baseball team has lost 237 consecutive games. The water polo team snapped a nine-year losing streak last year. And the men's basketball team went 310 conference games without a win, a 26-year streak that mercifully ended with a one-point win over Occidental College last February.

Newton_14
07-17-2012, 10:40 PM
This Article (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--fbc-north-carolina-academic-scandal.html)

Pat Forde pulls no punches in this article, but to me, the most damning words comes from a couple of UNC professors quoted in the article. A very good read, and shows that the basketball team may get dragged deeper into this muck than Ol Roy may wish.

From professor Sue Estroff:

"It's demoralizing," said professor of social medicine Sue Estroff, a former UNC faculty chair and 30-year teaching veteran at the school. "It's dumbfounding. It's embarrassing. It's maddening. What else can I say? It's not what anybody wanted. It belongs to all of us, and you can't put it in just one place. It's impossible to defend, nor should we try."

From professor Jay Smith:

"Of course it's academic fraud," Smith wrote in an email. "And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible, making plausible 'progress toward the degree.' I don't blame the athletes – and that's important to make clear. Many of us feel this way. It's not the athletes' fault that they're often being shepherded through a bogus course of study, and are also made to pay the piper if they fall short of some measure invented by the NCAA.

"It's the system that's corrupt, and it's the adults who benefit from the system – starting with school administrators and faculty – who have to have the gumption to live up to their moral obligations and say enough is enough." This thing appears to be far from over.

ForkFondler
07-17-2012, 10:50 PM
UNC-Cheated, Cal Tech put on probation. Someone has to pay for UNC's lack of academic standards.


And the men's basketball team went 310 conference games without a win, a 26-year streak that mercifully ended with a one-point win over Occidental College last February.


So, does Cal Tech have to vacate their win over Occidental?

JasonEvans
07-17-2012, 10:51 PM
The part of the Forde article that has Carolina fans really worried is...


The question hanging out there now is how deeply Carolina's sacred cow, basketball, gets dragged into the mud.

Three percent of the students taking suspicious AFAM courses were basketball players – certainly a lower number than their football counterparts, but they also make up a much smaller percentage of the student population. Coach Roy Williams has declared that the academic scandal is not a basketball issue, but a university issue. But N&O investigative reporter Dan Kane made mention on his blog this summer of a two-year-old Indianapolis Star story on academics and basketball that now has greater resonance today.

The article, on the clustering of players in certain majors, noted that a whopping seven players from UNC's 2005 national championship team graduated with degrees in African and Afro-American Studies. The Star quoted star player Sean May as saying he dropped a communications major and moved to Afro-American Studies after leaving for the NBA to get his degree faster.

May told the Star that AFAM offered "more independent electives, independent study. I could take a lot of classes during the season. Communications, I had to be there in the actual classroom. We just made sure all the classes I had to take, I could take during the summer."

-Jason "well, that just smells bad in light of what we now know" Evans

Duvall
07-17-2012, 10:57 PM
So, does Cal Tech have to vacate their win over Occidental?

No. No ineligible players played in that game.

Newton_14
07-17-2012, 11:04 PM
The part of the Forde article that has Carolina fans really worried is...



-Jason "well, that just smells bad in light of what we now know" Evans

Knowing how much you love poker Jason, I find it fitting to state that the "Stakes just got raised" no?

-Mark "Having to vacate either or both of those Natty's would cause a meltdown the likes of which we've never seen" Newton_14

elvis14
07-17-2012, 11:05 PM
From professor Jay Smith: It's not the athletes' fault that they're often being shepherded through a bogus course of study, and are also made to pay the piper if they fall short of some measure invented by the NCAA.


I don't know that I agree completely with professor Smith. If I'm a student and I have 5 classes and one of them I don't attend or do any real work to earn any credit yet I get a grade and credit, I know that class isn't on the up and up. Should the adults at UNC@CH be blamed more than the students? Yes. The students are not blameless in their cheating. Also, I don't really appreciate the way he tries to plant the seed of NCAA issues to deflect away from UNC@CH cheating.

Newton_14
07-17-2012, 11:17 PM
I don't know that I agree completely with professor Smith. If I'm a student and I have 5 classes and one of them I don't attend or do any real work to earn any credit yet I get a grade and credit, I know that class isn't on the up and up. Should the adults at UNC@CH be blamed more than the students? Yes. The students are not blameless in their cheating. Also, I don't really appreciate the way he tries to plant the seed of NCAA issues to deflect away from UNC@CH cheating.

I agree with you 100% there. The student-athlete absolutely has accountability there. No question. The other professor pulled no punches. The Smith guy was tough about the fraud, but then fell into the carolina way of getting defensive, which they have done from the beginning on this.

I don't believe UNC will ever gain back respect here until they stop defending the acts, stop minimizing the acts, and stand up and say "This is wrong, we are going to fix it, and insure it never happens again". No qualifiers, no excuses, just full acceptance. I am not holding my breath though.

moonpie23
07-17-2012, 11:21 PM
The part of the Forde article that has Carolina fans really worried is...



-Jason "well, that just smells bad in light of what we now know" Evans

be still my heart........this is looking like there could be an actual connection made.....does anyone know if the NCAA has concluded their investigation?

gumbomoop
07-18-2012, 08:41 AM
I have posted several times that I'm waiting for the UNC faculty, individually or collectively, to speak out and condemn what happened. So I want to acknowledge these 2 UNC profs who have commented quite strongly.

I don't see Prof. Smith's comments as any weaker than Prof. Estroff's. For instance, Prof. Smith says: "Of course it's academic fraud. And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible." Further down the article, Smith is quoted again: "To me the worst damage has come, and continues to come, from the university's defensive and less-than-forthcoming reaction to the entire story. The university very much looks like it's trying to hide something. An objective outsider could reach no other conclusion."

I don't read in these words either an attempt to deflect things away from UNC-cheating or a shift to any "Carolina Way" obfuscation. Quite the contrary, Smith's words seem very forceful, specifically condemning cheating the clear purpose of which was to help athletes, and specifically blasting university administrators for covering up. Finally, the words, "by whom we can't say yet," suggest that Smith himself wonders whether the fraud-conspirator circle goes beyond the AFAM chairman and assistant. That strikes me as neither deflection nor obfuscation, but a call for more digging.

BD80
07-18-2012, 08:56 AM
I have posted several times that I'm waiting for the UNC faculty, individually or collectively, to speak out and condemn what happened. So I want to acknowledge these 2 UNC profs who have commented quite strongly.

I don't see Prof. Smith's comments as any weaker than Prof. Estroff's. For instance, Prof. Smith says: "Of course it's academic fraud. And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible." Further down the article, Smith is quoted again: "To me the worst damage has come, and continues to come, from the university's defensive and less-than-forthcoming reaction to the entire story. The university very much looks like it's trying to hide something. An objective outsider could reach no other conclusion."

I don't read in these words either an attempt to deflect things away from UNC-cheating or a shift to any "Carolina Way" obfuscation. Quite the contrary, Smith's words seem very forceful, specifically condemning cheating the clear purpose of which was to help athletes, and specifically blasting university administrators for covering up. Finally, the words, "by whom we can't say yet," suggest that Smith himself wonders whether the fraud-conspirator circle goes beyond the AFAM chairman and assistant. That strikes me as neither deflection nor obfuscation, but a call for more digging.

That strikes me as a professor who will soon be enjoying a change of scenery.

OldPhiKap
07-18-2012, 08:58 AM
Knowing how much you love poker Jason, I find it fitting to state that the "Stakes just got raised" no?

-Mark "Having to vacate either or both of those Natty's would cause a meltdown the likes of which we've never seen" Newton_14

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=flying+pig+image&qpvt=flying+pig+image&FORM=IGRE

diablesseblu
07-18-2012, 08:58 AM
I have posted several times that I'm waiting for the UNC faculty, individually or collectively, to speak out and condemn what happened. So I want to acknowledge these 2 UNC profs who have commented quite strongly.

I don't see Prof. Smith's comments as any weaker than Prof. Estroff's. For instance, Prof. Smith says: "Of course it's academic fraud. And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible." Further down the article, Smith is quoted again: "To me the worst damage has come, and continues to come, from the university's defensive and less-than-forthcoming reaction to the entire story. The university very much looks like it's trying to hide something. An objective outsider could reach no other conclusion."

I don't read in these words either an attempt to deflect things away from UNC-cheating or a shift to any "Carolina Way" obfuscation. Quite the contrary, Smith's words seem very forceful, specifically condemning cheating the clear purpose of which was to help athletes, and specifically blasting university administrators for covering up. Finally, the words, "by whom we can't say yet," suggest that Smith himself wonders whether the fraud-conspirator circle goes beyond the AFAM chairman and assistant. That strikes me as neither deflection nor obfuscation, but a call for more digging.


I spent part of my professional life as an administrator in a large university's registrar's office. Be assurred that someone in that office at UNC noticed and questioned what was going on in the AFAM department. The "fraud-conspirator circle" is definitely larger than just the department.

For example, the history of the course scheduling in AFAM would be a red flag during a reaccreditation audit. The registrar's office personnel would have had someone "higher up" sign off on all of this.

Kfanarmy
07-18-2012, 10:02 AM
I really don't understand how no one in administration at UNC, or in NCAA enforcement circles, did not find suspicious that all seven of the graduating players from a National Championship Basketball team had the same major. Really? Hansbrough took Swahili for three years to what end? I can't even imagine the odds of them choosing the same field of study. They had to be directed or encouraged to sign up for it.

Clearly the basketball team knew of this situation. The attitude of the athletic department must have been completely dismissive...Blanchard's tone in this one liner suggests an above-the-rules attitude.

"Otto, the head of the Drake Group, said her concern with clustering is that it raises questions about whether athletes are being directed to a path of least academic resistance.

"I'm fascinated at the longevity of North Carolina's clustering," Otto said. "It's unbelievable." Lennon of the NCAA declined to comment, saying it's a campus issue.

John Blanchard, senior associate athletic director at North Carolina, said it's reasonable that people in a peer group might gravitate to the same major. He said clustering "just doesn't bother us here."

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100402/SPORTS0609/4020331/They-got-game-do-NCAA-players-graduate

Reilly
07-18-2012, 10:13 AM
... Having to vacate either or both of those Natty's would cause a meltdown the likes of which we've never seen" ...

Once a bakery has retroactively crowned a sports champion, it is loath to re-visit the decision. To do so messes with the integrity of the historical record.

OldPhiKap
07-18-2012, 10:17 AM
Once a bakery has retroactively crowned a sports champion, it is loath to re-visit the decision. To do so messes with the integrity of the historical record.

The NCAA could take away the Championship, but vote them another Helms.

Win-win all around.

Kedsy
07-18-2012, 10:18 AM
I can't even imagine the odds of them choosing the same field of study. They had to be directed or encouraged to sign up for it.

I disagree with this statement. Every student knows which courses are the easy ones. Obviously, "easy" is relative, but we all knew which courses were easiest at Duke, right? Everyone I knew did, anyway. We called them "crip" courses.

Of course, knowing which courses are easy doesn't mean everybody chooses them. It doesn't appear as if the students in this UNC situation were encouraged to branch out or challenge themselves intellectually. But that's different from encouraging them to sign up for it.

uh_no
07-18-2012, 10:25 AM
I disagree with this statement. Every student knows which courses are the easy ones. Obviously, "easy" is relative, but we all knew which courses were easiest at Duke, right? Everyone I knew did, anyway. We called them "crip" courses.

Of course, knowing which courses are easy doesn't mean everybody chooses them. It doesn't appear as if the students in this UNC situation were encouraged to branch out or challenge themselves intellectually. But that's different from encouraging them to sign up for it.

There's a reason Earth & Ocean Sciences 101 (or whatever the number is) is colloquially known as "rocks for jocks"...not to put it on the level of the AFAM courses at UNC....but kedsy is spot on that everyone knows what the easy courses are, and there is no doubt that certain types of people might gravitate towards courses with a lighter workload, especially if all their friends are doing it.

CameronBornAndBred
07-18-2012, 10:31 AM
Hansbrough took Swahili for three years to what end?

He can talk to you over breakfast.

"Sijambo!" he said. "That's 'good morning.' I wouldn't say I'm ready to go to Kenya right this minute, but I know a little something or two."

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/Apr/05/carolina-star-an-interesting-case/?preventMobileRedirect=1

OldPhiKap
07-18-2012, 10:33 AM
There's a reason Earth & Ocean Sciences 101 (or whatever the number is) is colloquially known as "rocks for jocks"...not to put it on the level of the AFAM courses at UNC....but kedsy is spot on that everyone knows what the easy courses are, and there is no doubt that certain types of people might gravitate towards courses with a lighter workload, especially if all their friends are doing it.

The hardest part of that course was getting to Gross Chem by 9 a.m. after kegs.

OTOH, if you took Bonkistry, you were in for a work-out.

Every school has a wide range of classes. I don't think we had any easy MAJORS though. I guess I don't know enough about the situation to determine whether there was one bad apple professor with one easy pass, or whether this professor orchestrated the whole thing. How many profs were in the AFAM faculty, and is there any evidence that the other faculty was anything other than straight-up honest?

Serious questions, I don't know.

JasonEvans
07-18-2012, 10:39 AM
Before we cast stones, make sure we remember the ESPN report that a large number of Duke basketball players get degrees in Sociology. I don't recall the numbers, but there appears to be at least some "clustering" here at Duke too.

Also, I recall taking a PolSci class when I was at Duke in the late 1980s, I forget which it was, but there were like 20 kids in the course and probably 12 of them were football or basketball players. I was friends with Alaa and Robert Brickey and they were both in it, which is one reason I took it. Now, it is worth noting that the class was taught by one of the faculty academic advisers for the athletic department, but that was still a case where the enrollment in a particularly class was heavily overloaded with scholarship athletes.

To me, it is neither the clustering nor the grouping of athletes in these UNC AFAM classes that raises real concern, it is the fact that there appears to have been a concerted effort from the AFAM department to not teach the athletes and just give them an easy "progress toward graduation" credits. Couple that with a tutor (I am sure she was the only one) who was doing work for the athletes in some other classes and you have a system where athletes are pushed through the system without even pretending to be students or learning anything. That is a major problem and one that UNC should be addressing head-on and in a forthright manner.

-Jason "I am a bit surprised there are not more professors and alums at UNC speaking out... this, as much as anything, hits directly at the core of 'The Carolina Way,' which is supposed to include educating your players" Evans

Nepos
07-18-2012, 10:42 AM
There's a reason Earth & Ocean Sciences 101 (or whatever the number is) is colloquially known as "rocks for jocks"...not to put it on the level of the AFAM courses at UNC....but kedsy is spot on that everyone knows what the easy courses are, and there is no doubt that certain types of people might gravitate towards courses with a lighter workload, especially if all their friends are doing it.

For info on clustering at Duke, here is a Chronicle article re: football: http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/majors-duke-football-player-choice-academic-majors.

A quote from RP Warren's All the King's Men comes to mind:


To find something, anything…a great truth, or a lost pair of glasses…you must first believe there will be some advantage in finding it. I found something a long time ago…and have held on to it for grim death ever since. I owe my success in life to it. It put me where I am today. This principle: What you don’t know won’t hurt you. They called it idealism, in a book I read.

UrinalCake
07-18-2012, 11:03 AM
To me, it is neither the clustering nor the grouping of athletes in these UNC AFAM classes that raises real concern, it is the fact that there appears to have been a concerted effort from the AFAM department to not teach the athletes and just give them an easy "progress toward graduation" credits.

Totally agree with this. UNC is trying to defend the courses in question by assuring us that "both athletes and non-athletes were enrolled in the course." But the real issue is whether the course is legit to begin with.

devildeac
07-18-2012, 11:59 AM
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=flying+pig+image&qpvt=flying+pig+image&FORM=IGRE

Along the same line of thinking:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=hell+freezes+over+sign&qpvt=hell+freezes+over+sign&FORM=IGRE

Kfanarmy
07-18-2012, 12:02 PM
I disagree with this statement. Every student knows which courses are the easy ones. Obviously, "easy" is relative, but we all knew which courses were easiest at Duke, right? Everyone I knew did, anyway. We called them "crip" courses.

Of course, knowing which courses are easy doesn't mean everybody chooses them. It doesn't appear as if the students in this UNC situation were encouraged to branch out or challenge themselves intellectually. But that's different from encouraging them to sign up for it.

If we were just talking a few easy courses, I could/would see it. A major normally entails more than just a few courses of specialty, however...

Again it is unfathomable to me for someone to think this wasn't orchestrated by someone in authority associated with the team...I bet it would have been difficult enough to get all 7 of them to go to lunch together without administration involvement.

OldPhiKap
07-18-2012, 12:03 PM
Along the same line of thinking:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=hell+freezes+over+sign&qpvt=hell+freezes+over+sign&FORM=IGRE

I forgot that it gets that cold in Chapel Hill.

moonpie23
07-18-2012, 12:36 PM
i prolly coulda laid out of that first course in dynamics......would have gotten the same grade....:cool:

oldnavy
07-18-2012, 12:43 PM
To be honest about this thread, I really couldn't care less if UNC football or basketball players took crip courses. I think this goes on at every school in the US of A. BUT, the problem is these are not just "easy courses" where you don't really learn anything, heck I took some very hard courses where I didn't learn anything.

But this is a little different than just a bunch of ball players rushing down to sign up and getting into easy classes... this was an organized effort to ensure that ONLY ball players got these courses and then had to do little to no work to even get credit.... so it acutally may be fraud designed to assist the athletic program.... hummm....

I don't think anything big will come of it, but it is fun to see our friends on the hill do the little tap dance to explain, how the "Carolina Way" is still in place and working as always despite the last years worth of evidence to the contrary...

cspan37421
07-18-2012, 01:10 PM
Before we cast stones, make sure we remember the ESPN report that a large number of Duke basketball players get degrees in Sociology. I don't recall the numbers, but there appears to be at least some "clustering" here at Duke too.

Also, I recall taking a PolSci class when I was at Duke in the late 1980s, I forget which it was, but there were like 20 kids in the course and probably 12 of them were football or basketball players. I was friends with Alaa and Robert Brickey and they were both in it, which is one reason I took it. Now, it is worth noting that the class was taught by one of the faculty academic advisers for the athletic department, but that was still a case where the enrollment in a particularly class was heavily overloaded with scholarship athletes.

To me, it is neither the clustering nor the grouping of athletes in these UNC AFAM classes that raises real concern, it is the fact that there appears to have been a concerted effort from the AFAM department to not teach the athletes and just give them an easy "progress toward graduation" credits. Couple that with a tutor (I am sure she was the only one) who was doing work for the athletes in some other classes and you have a system where athletes are pushed through the system without even pretending to be students or learning anything. That is a major problem and one that UNC should be addressing head-on and in a forthright manner.

-Jason "I am a bit surprised there are not more professors and alums at UNC speaking out... this, as much as anything, hits directly at the core of 'The Carolina Way,' which is supposed to include educating your players" Evans


Jason is spot-on in this. What is relevant is not clustering, but whether what they're clustering in meets some minimum standard of academic pursuit. An independent study with no significant work, no teacher/student interaction, and no oversight does not meet that standard. [PS, Jason, what did you think of that class? Was it substantial?]

Suppose most athletes in top revenue sports at every major college took a major that went deep into contract law, nutrition & physiology, coaching for high schools, labor relations, financial management, communications/marketing (including salesmanship), etc. That's probably a big step up from the situation today! They'd be better prepared both for a professional career, should they be among the lucky ones, and a backup plan, should they not make it to a sports paycheck or get injured along the way.

And regarding casting stones, I seem to remember Kyle Singler telling Dan Patrick that he was taking the foreign language of Wolof - which struck me as more obscure than Swahili, though Wikip's "native speakers" numbers seem to suggest the opposite is true. All I can say is, while I really hope UNC gets what is coming to them, I hope even more that we are as clean as everyone here seems to assume we are.

weezie
07-18-2012, 06:38 PM
...heck I took some very hard courses where I didn't learn anything....


I hear that, hahaha, double heck, there are days when I try to remember what my entire chemistry major was about and I can't recall a tootin' thing, except don't add gushing water to drain cleaner. :cool:

bob blue devil
07-20-2012, 10:17 AM
From N&O: "UNC star Nicks ineligible during 2008 season, records show"
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/20/2209329/unc-star-nicks-ineligible-during.html

nice to see UNC taking the issue seriously, accepting responsibility and doing more than the minimum to appease the ncaa (sarcasm).
what the asterisk's note will be says it all: "participation later vacated due to NCAA penalty."
interpretation: "these records have a taint because of the ncaa, not UNC and not nicks"; why not put the truth in there or remove his name entirely (okay, i get why taking his name out entirely would never happen despite the fact it should, but if you were at all serious you would at least assign some blame beyond that darned ncaa); how about "record stripped due to ineligibility of player resulting from his participation in academic fraud".

i know, i know, why would i expect anything less from chapel hill after witnessing everything else to date? truth is i don't, but i still can rant.

UrinalCake
07-20-2012, 10:26 AM
I stumbled across this article, it tells some anecdotes of UNC players and their "academic" requirements and then poses a larger question of what schools should do about the paradox of the very concept of the student-athlete.

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/opinion/nocera-football-and-swahili.html)

MCFinARL
07-20-2012, 10:57 AM
I hear that, hahaha, double heck, there are days when I try to remember what my entire chemistry major was about and I can't recall a tootin' thing, except don't add gushing water to drain cleaner. :cool:

Well, honestly, that's probably of much more practical importance than most of what most of us learned in college. And I'm only sort of kidding.

MCFinARL
07-20-2012, 11:14 AM
I stumbled across this article, it tells some anecdotes of UNC players and their "academic" requirements and then poses a larger question of what schools should do about the paradox of the very concept of the student-athlete.

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/opinion/nocera-football-and-swahili.html)

Joe Nocera has devoted a lot of thought and column space to these issues. Interestingly, many of the comments on this article got sidetracked onto a debate about whether or not Swahili was a worthwhile college course, and Nocera's tone might have prompted this response. But they missed the point--which was that the UNC athletes were TOLD to take Swahili rather than another language, supposedly because it matched the expertise of athletic department tutors. Course steering like this, which I believe goes on at a lot of schools even when no academic fraud is involved, definitely undercuts the value of the "free education" that many people--and I have been one of them--hold up as the benefit athletes receive in return for their play. Swahili, or any other course, is of no value to a student who doesn't really have an interest in it, though it may be of great value to one who does.

The explanation also leads to an obvious question about UNC--the tutors they hired were all good at Swahili, rather than, say, French or Spanish? Really? That was surely not an accident.

Bluedog
07-20-2012, 11:19 AM
Although this situation isn't as extreme, it brings back the memory a bit of an "Outside the Lines" piece ESPN did several years ago about a basketball player, Kevin Ross, who was illiterate, yet went through four years of college at Creighton. He had a secretary basically do all of his work and just had to write his name on tests. However, after four years of an injury-plagued career, when the basketball season ended, the "tutor" stopped and Ross had to do the work himself, so he failed all of courses, not surprisingly. He got a 9 on the ACT apparently, but somehow the athletic program convinced admissions to let him in. Ross became a substitute teacher (after learning how to read presumably) as you only needed three years of college in Kansas in order to do so. At the time, he was hoping to finish his degree. This show made it seem like Ross wanted to learn, but the school basically told him everything would be taken care of and he did not have to exert any effort in the classroom - until they didn't need his basketball play anymore and then they stopped. Just very strange how something like that could come to pass.

http://sports.espn.go.com/page2/tvlistings/show103transcript.html

Having said all that, the athletes I knew at Duke (not basketball or football players admittedly) were really hard workers and smart individuals - they are given no "free lunches" in the classroom and have to earn it. I'm always mightily impressed with the balance they show succeeding in both facets, but of course they are given a bit more flexibility when it comes to course selection and scheduling.

Nepos
07-20-2012, 12:24 PM
I stumbled across this article, it tells some anecdotes of UNC players and their "academic" requirements and then poses a larger question of what schools should do about the paradox of the very concept of the student-athlete.

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/opinion/nocera-football-and-swahili.html)

Yes, yes, yes. Combining pro-level athletics with college-level academics is inherently problematic, and the largest problems arise because of not being honest about this. Establishing and supporting majors in areas that are meaningful to athletes would go a long way to achieving honesty and eliminating some of the issues generated by the current dishonesty. A "pre-pro athlete" major could include meaningful and helpful courses in phys ed, coaching, communications, sports psych, sports soc/history, personal finances, etc. Obviously, lots of athletes would choose other majors, but this major would exist for those who are primarily at the school to advance their athletic credentials.

I did not participate in athletics at Duke and am just a spectator in this game. However, about a year ago I did discuss this issue with a friend who was one of the most prominent "scholar-athlete" in my class (a starter on a visible varsity sport who attended Duke on an academic scholarship), and he was equally upset by the dishonesty in college sports and in favor of reform like that mentioned in the NY Times column.

Why can't this type of reform happen? It would allow the big money for schools, coaches, leagues, and athletic departments to remain, so it would not threaten the golden goose. The threat would be to the pristine academic image of the ivory tower, but one would hope that academic types would want to embrace the truth of the current system (there's a lot that is far from pristine right now) and establish a more honest environment in which to embed big-time athletics in a setting that also focuses on big-time academics.

CameronBornAndBred
07-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Someone asked Heather Dinich on her blog about the NCAA's and for the most part the media's lack of interest in the latest findings at Carolina. Her response was interesting.


A big reason I don't think it's getting a lot of attention, though, is because the NCAA doesn't seem too interested in it. The bigger question is why isn't the NCAA interested anymore? Well, maybe because it's hard to prove that athletes were the target of these classes? I have no idea, but if the NCAA were nosing around, I don't doubt the media would suddenly become more interested. Right now it seems more academic than athletic. That doesn't mean that perception is correct.

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/40932/friday-mailblog-84

ForkFondler
07-20-2012, 01:44 PM
A similar Michigan story:

http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/academics/stories/index.ssf/2008/03/athletes_safe_harbor_is_genera.html

But still, I don't see any instances of star football players taking an upper level course in order to become eligible as a freshman. That is taking academic fraud to a whole new level. In fact it might be a two level jump.

allenmurray
07-20-2012, 04:25 PM
Before we cast stones, make sure we remember the ESPN report that a large number of Duke basketball players get degrees in Sociology. I don't recall the numbers, but there appears to be at least some "clustering" here at Duke too.

Sure there are some easy courses in most sociology departments, but as someone who has an undergraduate major in sociology, from a university with a sociology department that takes itself seriously, I engaged in more challenging reading and use of original source materials than most of my friends in any other social science. As a sociology major at a university less prestigious than Duke I was expected as an undergraduate to be familiar with the works and theories of C. Wright Mills, Max Weber, Claude Levi-Straus, Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, Margaret Mead, Peter Berger, Robert Merton, and on and on. Why people joke about athletes majoring in sociology, rather than communications, or journalism, or general studies, or other majors has always escaped me. People who had a major in sociology (rather than just a course or two) are incredibly well read and quite prepared for graduate study in many fields (I have two graduate degrees - neither required anything as challenging as reading social theorsts). Because of the quantitiative emphasis over the last three decades, the statistical requirements for folks in sociology often exceed that of any other social science, including economics (which as we all know is just a sub-genre of sociology).

There are many less challenging majors than sociology, but it seems everyone likes to call it out as the "easy route" for an athlete. I've never understood that.

ForkFondler
07-20-2012, 04:48 PM
Every school has some easier courses, easier majors, and easier paths to graduation. Those paths are, of course, more likely to be taken by athletes who not admitted because they are superior students. But that's not the stuff academic fraud is made of. Rather it's about fake courses and fake coursework (tutor-generated papers). Regardless of exactly what blurry line you care to draw that defines a "real course", the UNC athletic curriculum crossed it and kept going. For example, did McAdoo really plagiarize other sources pages at a time, or did someone else do it for him?

grit74
07-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Sure there are some easy courses in most sociology departments, but as someone who has an undergraduate major in sociology, from a university with a sociology department that takes itself seriously, I engaged in more challenging reading and use of original source materials than most of my friends in any other social science. As a sociology major at a university less prestigious than Duke I was expected as an undergraduate to be familiar with the works and theories of C. Wright Mills, Max Weber, Claude Levi-Straus, Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, Margaret Mead, Peter Berger, Robert Merton, and on and on. Why people joke about athletes majoring in sociology, rather than communications, or journalism, or general studies, or other majors has always escaped me. People who had a major in sociology (rather than just a course or two) are incredibly well read and quite prepared for graduate study in many fields (I have two graduate degrees - neither required anything as challenging as reading social theorsts). Because of the quantitiative emphasis over the last three decades, the statistical requirements for folks in sociology often exceed that of any other social science, including economics (which as we all know is just a sub-genre of sociology).

There are many less challenging majors than sociology, but it seems everyone likes to call it out as the "easy route" for an athlete. I've never understood that.


great post!

Jderf
07-20-2012, 09:25 PM
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere or not, but Hakeem Nicks has been retroactively declared ineligible for his senior season (2008). (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8183058/former-north-carolina-tar-heel-hakeem-nicks-was-ineligible-records-get-asterisk)

CameronBornAndBred
07-27-2012, 09:41 AM
OUCH!!!!!


In a report released Thursday, a faculty subcommittee at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that Tar Heel athletes told interviewers that they were directed to classes in the African and Afro-American Studies Department by staffers in the Academic Support Program for Student Athletes.


Further interviews suggested that athletic advisers were discouraged from contacting faculty to discuss courses offered and were instead guided to the associate directors at the Loudermilk Center – those whose salaries are paid by the athletics department.
The findings also present a continued sense of secrecy coming out of the athletics department and the subcommittee’s report calls for more transparency throughout the university.

http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/11361189/

CameronBornAndBred
07-27-2012, 09:45 AM
After Penn State, it is not the best time for reports to be coming out highlighting "secrecy" within your athletic department.

Newton_14
07-27-2012, 10:18 AM
After Penn State, it is not the best time for reports to be coming out highlighting "secrecy" within your athletic department.

Agreed. UNC keeps this up, and it is going to bite them big time in the end. Emmert seems to mean business and at some point will turn his attention to UNC. Thanks for linking the article. Looks like WRAL is joining The News & Observer in the effort to keep the pressure on UNC. I have said from the beginning that UNC needs to drop all this Carolina Way nonsense, put all the cards on the table, accept blame, and make a true effort to clean it up. Anything short of that will only make things worse.

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 10:28 AM
OUCH!!!!!


http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/11361189/


The issue boils down to what the report calls, “an absence of systematic or regular communication between the athletic department and the university as a whole.”

Sounds like an absence of institutional control.

In any event, though, it does not sound like there is any planned follow-up on the report as to past transgressions.

Newton_14
07-27-2012, 10:39 AM
OUCH!!!!!


http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/11361189/


Sounds like an absence of institutional control.

In any event, though, it does not sound like there is any planned follow-up on the report as to past transgressions.

Here is yet another article from WRAL. 54 suspect classes going back to 2006-07.

"UNC leaders say that, in some cases, students turned in work with no supervision. In other situations, instructors’ names may have been forged on documents and grades changed."

Full Article (http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/11359190/)

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 10:52 AM
Here is yet another article from WRAL. 54 suspect classes going back to 2006-07.

"UNC leaders say that, in some cases, students turned in work with no supervision. In other situations, instructors’ names may have been forged on documents and grades changed."

Full Article (http://www.wral.com/news/education/story/11359190/)





Members of the Tar Heels football and basketball teams made up nearly 40 percent of the enrollees in those classes; nearly another 20 percent were student-athletes in other sports.

Could get juicy . . . .


The report is also likely to recommend an outside consultant look at how athletics and academics intersect at UNC. Chancellor Holden Thorp said the outside consultant will likely be a former chancellor or university president.

. . . but it will get swept under the rug. . . .


The State Bureau of Investigation is also looking what happened to see if there was any criminal activity going on, such as a possible conspiracy to conceal a crime.

. . . unless these people are real, I don't know anything about that office's impartiality. Hopefully better than the former Durham County DA.

Gewebe14
07-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Wasn't Hansbro's mom hired at unc too? Perhaps its time to re-look into that. Wonder if she was an adjunct Swahili professor.

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 11:47 AM
Wasn't Hansbro's mom hired at unc too? Perhaps its time to re-look into that. Wonder if she was an adjunct Swahili professor.

Never heard that, but don't know. I think his father is a doctor, so I don't think side money was an object.

moonpie23
07-27-2012, 12:11 PM
more blather...

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/26/2223477/unc-chapel-hill-faculty-calls.html

oldnavy
07-27-2012, 12:19 PM
Agreed. UNC keeps this up, and it is going to bite them big time in the end. Emmert seems to mean business and at some point will turn his attention to UNC. Thanks for linking the article. Looks like WRAL is joining The News & Observer in the effort to keep the pressure on UNC. I have said from the beginning that UNC needs to drop all this Carolina Way nonsense, put all the cards on the table, accept blame, and make a true effort to clean it up. Anything short of that will only make things worse.

Newton_14, I totally agree with you, but I don't think that it is possible for them to drop the "Carolina Way" nonsense, because I honestly believe that they believe it. It is a part of their makeup and they can no more "drop it" than you or I could fly to the top of Duke Chapel by flapping our arms..... they do not live in the same reality that the rest of us do.

And I think you are correct, this is what will get them, IF they are to be got.... I still don't think anything will come of this, I hope that they get burned, but I guess I want it too much to believe that it will actually happen.....

BD80
07-27-2012, 12:20 PM
Sounds like an absence of institutional control. ...

Actually, sounds like too much control ... by the athletic department

CameronBornAndBred
07-27-2012, 12:21 PM
more blather...

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/26/2223477/unc-chapel-hill-faculty-calls.html


“This reporting system is ambiguous, lacks clarity, and is likely not to be very productive,” the report said
They left off the end of that sentence. The one that says "just the way our bosses like it".

hood7
07-27-2012, 12:57 PM
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/26/the-latest-on-unc-basketballs-connection-to-the-academic-scandal/

UNC really needs to rip off this bandaid ASAP. The more they try to spin, distract, and cloud the truth, the worse it's going to get. Internal reviews of its own internal investigations of its own internal misdeeds, at each level performed by UNC insiders - they think the public cannot see that this is a whole lot of bluster with absolutely no intent to discover, uncover, or publicize the truth? Oh, don't worry, the foxes are reviewing other foxes' investigations of other foxes' deeds... concluding that there was just a couple 'rogue' foxes and nothing else to see here...just a bunch of innocent hens in the house.

And if it was really just a rogue advisor (Crowder) and a rogue prof (Nyang'oro), then how come the scam was still going strong in the summer of 2011 when Crowder was retired and the prof was out of town, unavailable for comment, in Africa (but still apparently "teaching" some classes)...?

killerleft
07-27-2012, 12:58 PM
Newton_14, I totally agree with you, but I don't think that it is possible for them to drop the "Carolina Way" nonsense, because I honestly believe that they believe it. It is a part of their makeup and they can no more "drop it" than you or I could fly to the top of Duke Chapel by flapping our arms..... they do not live in the same reality that the rest of us do.

And I think you are correct, this is what will get them, IF they are to be got.... I still don't think anything will come of this, I hope that they get burned, but I guess I want it too much to believe that it will actually happen.....

I hope that "The Carolina Way" jingle sticks around for a long time. Anyone not connected to UNC now automatically assumes the subject is academic fraud and the resulting cloud that hovers above their athletic department like a sulphuric fog.

Jderf
07-27-2012, 01:09 PM
They left off the end of that sentence. The one that says "just the way our bosses like it".

Another great gem from that article (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/26/2223477/unc-chapel-hill-faculty-calls.html).


University officials have said the fraud does not merit an NCAA investigation because nonathletes also were enrolled in the no-show classes.

This is basically the equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting like a baby. Is there really a single human being out there than honestly thinks this could be a legitimate exoneration?

CameronBornAndBred
07-27-2012, 01:44 PM
Another great gem from that article (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/26/2223477/unc-chapel-hill-faculty-calls.html).



This is basically the equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting like a baby. Is there really a single human being out there than honestly thinks this could be a legitimate exoneration?

2724

Merlindevildog91
07-27-2012, 03:06 PM
Another great gem from that article (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/26/2223477/unc-chapel-hill-faculty-calls.html).

This is basically the equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting like a baby. Is there really a single human being out there than honestly thinks this could be a legitimate exoneration?

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people looking at the world through baby-blue sunglasses. I have asked more than a few friends who are unc fans (though none have actually attended there) and to a person, they have all informed me that all universities have special accommodations for their money athletes. A few have informed me that it's a large, economy-sized witch hunt on the parts of the jealous and obviously crooked Wuffies.

Color me cynical, but I believe the likelihood of any meaningful repercussions against the unc athletic department is smaller than the likelihood that I will do a windmill jam at Countdown to Craziness.

moonpie23
07-27-2012, 03:30 PM
until the ncaa re-opens an investigation, i'm going to predict that they are gonna skate....

ForkFondler
07-27-2012, 04:13 PM
I think more sanctions are unlikely. But, they are going to have a much tougher time keeping nonstudent-athletes eligible in the future. Either that, or they will continue to embarass themselves.

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 04:50 PM
I hope that "The Carolina Way" jingle sticks around for a long time.

FWIW, it's "Njia Carolina" in Swahili.



http://imtranslator.net/translation/english/to-swahili/translation/

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 04:53 PM
(Roy Williams ni mtoto ambao hawawezi kushughulikia upinzani.)

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 05:04 PM
"Mimi napenda alihudhuria Chuo Kikuu cha Duke badala ya North Carolina.
Duke ina usanifu nzuri na mahali pa kushangaza kwa kucheza mpira wa kikapu.
Badala yake, mimi kujifunza kuhusu mvinyo na jibini.
Nasikitika makosa yangu ujana."

-- Tyler Hansborough (and he's right)

MCFinARL
07-27-2012, 05:35 PM
"Mimi napenda alihudhuria Chuo Kikuu cha Duke badala ya North Carolina.
Duke ina usanifu nzuri na mahali pa kushangaza kwa kucheza mpira wa kikapu.
Badala yake, mimi kujifunza kuhusu mvinyo na jibini.
Nasikitika makosa yangu ujana."

-- Tyler Hansborough (and he's right)

That's hilarious!

OldPhiKap
07-27-2012, 05:42 PM
That's hilarious!

Asante sana.

Gewebe14
07-27-2012, 06:06 PM
wengi wa wasomaji DBR sasa kujua zaidi kuliko swahili Sean Mei na Hansbro pamoja!

dukelilsis
07-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Wasn't Hansbro's mom hired at unc too? Perhaps its time to re-look into that. Wonder if she was an adjunct Swahili professor.

Not that I think she is involved (the former Miss Missouri doesn't look like the Swahili speaking type of girl to me), Hansbrough's mom was hired to work in the Dental School in December of 2008. How do I know this about the mother of a player I had to begrudgingly respect for staying in school (although that is swiftly going out the window) while disliking him immensely? That is a story in itself. In short, my husband and I own and show dogs. We had a litter last year and Tyler's mother somehow found out and applied for a puppy. She is the ex-wife of a doctor and mother of NBA players but she thought we should give her the puppy for free in exchange for the notoriety of having it owned by Tyler Hansbrough's mother. Class act, that one. She was informed that my brother is a graduate of Duke and that she would be expected to pay the full amount. We never heard from her again. Too bad: I was already planning on teaching the pup to poop on command at the mention of the words "Tyler", "Hansbrough", "Carolina"...you get the picture.

devildeac
07-27-2012, 07:48 PM
Not that I think she is involved (the former Miss Missouri doesn't look like the Swahili speaking type of girl to me), Hansbrough's mom was hired to work in the Dental School in December of 2008. How do I know this about the mother of a player I had to begrudgingly respect for staying in school (although that is swiftly going out the window) while disliking him immensely? That is a story in itself. In short, my husband and I own and show dogs. We had a litter last year and Tyler's mother somehow found out and applied for a puppy. She is the ex-wife of a doctor and mother of NBA players but she thought we should give her the puppy for free in exchange for the notoriety of having it owned by Tyler Hansbrough's mother. Class act, that one. She was informed that my brother is a graduate of Duke and that she would be expected to pay the full amount. We never heard from her again. Too bad: I was already planning on teaching the pup to poop on command at the mention of the words "Tyler", "Hansbrough", "Carolina"...you get the picture.

If she had bought the puppy, I would have charged her double.

I like your thoughts about training the puppy;).

Doctor Mu
07-28-2012, 03:33 AM
Jan Boxill is a Senior Lecturer in Philosophy and an Expert in Ethics in Sports and Academic Curricula with an extensive list of presentations and publications in her area of expertise. Ms Boxill has been a Counselor in the Student Athlete Development Center for 24 years until the present where she has served as Head Coordinator, Supervisor for Interns, and Supervisor for Tutors.

The Student Athlete Development Center received 3 sizable gifts from Charlie Loudermilk and the John W. Pope Foundation and is currently housed in a 29,000 sq ft facility for advising, tutoring, and education... within the 150,000 sq ft renovation built into Kenan stadium

The Student Athlete Development Center now in the Loudermilk building has been cited by the Subcommittee investigating academic fraud as lacking communication with the UNC academic advising office, acting as an island. Advisors in the facility have steered basketball and football players towards the AFAM Department for majors and classes. These include a series of fraudulent classes, under the guise of Independent Studies, that never actually met. The Advisors in the Student Athlete Development Center, where Ms. Boxill has served since 1988, evidently KNEW that the classes were bogus and steered athletes that way in spite, or rather BECAUSE of this fact!! Tutors worked hard into the night for student athletes...writing their papers! They laundered $ and gifts, often serving as bagmen.

This subcommittee has now reported their findings to the Chair of the Committee...



...Ms. Boxill

Coordinator, UNC Ethics Center, Institute for the Arts and Humanities Fall 2004.
Coordinator, Ethics Scholars for Tomorrow, UNC-CH 2005-2007
Associate Director, Parr Center for Ethics, UNC-CH 2005-2006
Director, Parr Center for Ethics, UNC-CH 2006-present

University, April 2009“Ethical Decision Making: Why it is Important to You,” Osher Lifelong Learning Institute, Duke Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI,

“Ethical Decision Making: Why it is Important to You,” Osher Lifelong Learning Institute, Duke Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI, October 2009
Values, Center for Ethics Studies and the Helen Way Klingler College of Arts and Sciences at “The Moral Significance of Sports,” Simmons Distinguished Lecture Series on Ethics and Human Medical School Postdocs, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, August 2009
“Research Ethics” Science and Pre-med Students, UNC-Pembroke, October 2009
“Ethics in the Workplace,” School of Nursing, UNC, Chapel Hill, October 2009.
Keynote Address, Ethics and Leadership Conference, North Carolina School of Science and Math, November 2009


Senior Lecturer in Philosophy, UNC-Chapel Hill 2004-present

Intern Supervisor, UNC Student Athlete Development Center *

Coordinator/Supervisor, UNC-Student Athlete Development Center*

Academic Counselor, Student Athlete Development Center*, UNC-CH 1988-present




Jan Boxill - overseer of all things athletic academic counseling at UNC since Coach K's 2nd Final Four

President BOG Wade Hargrove - UNC Grad, UNC JD, Attorney, UNC Center for Media Law & Policy

Judge Howard Manning - UNC BS, JD, descendent of the founder of UNC's Law School and Dean of the Medical School






http://gazette.unc.edu/archive...7/students.html

The University earlier this month received two gifts totaling $10.5 million to support nearly 800 student-athletes across 28 sports.

Alumnus R. Charles “Charlie” Loudermilk Sr. made a $7.5 million commitment to fund facilities supporting student-athletes as part of the Kenan Stadium renovation. The commitment will create The Loudermilk Center for Excellence, a 150,000 square-foot facility being built on the stadium’s east side.

The Loudermilk Center's largest feature is the John W. Pope Student-Athlete Academic Support Center. This 29,000 square-foot facility provides classrooms for teaching and tutoring, advanced computer technology, a writing lab, reading rooms and office space. It is also home to the Baddour Carolina Leadership Academy, which offers leadership training to Carolina student-athletes, coaches and staff. A $3 million gift from the Raleigh-based John William Pope Foundation funded the academic support center.





N&O June 6

The records show that in the summer of 2011, 19 students enrolled in AFAM 280: Blacks in North Carolina, 18 of them players on the football team, the other a former player. They also show that academic advisers assigned to athletes helped the players enroll in the class, which is the subject of a criminal investigation.
The advisers also knew that there would be no instruction.”

chapelboro.com

The report also notes discrepancies between the Steele Building, which is designed to assist all UNC students with academic advising, and the Loudermilk Center, which is specifically targeted toward student athletes. The student-to-advisor ratio in the Steele Building is about 500 to 1—much lower than the ratio in the Loudermilk Center.





The Carolina (Ethical) Way


Under the Rug Sweeping 101 (with Practical Laboratories)

mgtr
07-28-2012, 10:33 AM
Say, isn't there an independent Faculty Advisor for the athletic department. As I recall, our Faculty Advisor for athletics reported to the Faculty Senate, though that may be incorrect. Anyway, I thought this was a requirement of the NCAA.

Newton_14
08-05-2012, 08:54 PM
Say, isn't there an independent Faculty Advisor for the athletic department. As I recall, our Faculty Advisor for athletics reported to the Faculty Senate, though that may be incorrect. Anyway, I thought this was a requirement of the NCAA.

Not sure, but if Art Chansky has his way, there will be a "Silencing Of the Faculty". Per his line of thinking, those folks should teach, and let the AD or SID manage damage control when it comes to athletics.

One key quote:
"Sue Estroff, a 30-year tenured professor who was quoted frequently during her days as the Faculty Chair, and history professor Jay Smith might have been speaking the painful truth in the Yahoo column. But who are they to be spokespersons for UNC during such treacherous times? Who appointed them faculty mouthpieces to make a bad situation worse? Smith started when the New York Times’ Joe Nocera showed up on campus and his inflammatory email is the centerpiece of the Forde column"

Shut Up & Teach (http://chapelboro.com/Shut-Up-And-Teach/9737820?pid=253832)

oldnavy
08-06-2012, 07:13 AM
Not sure, but if Art Chansky has his way, there will be a "Silencing Of the Faculty". Per his line of thinking, those folks should teach, and let the AD or SID manage damage control when it comes to athletics.

One key quote:
"Sue Estroff, a 30-year tenured professor who was quoted frequently during her days as the Faculty Chair, and history professor Jay Smith might have been speaking the painful truth in the Yahoo column. But who are they to be spokespersons for UNC during such treacherous times? Who appointed them faculty mouthpieces to make a bad situation worse? Smith started when the New York Times’ Joe Nocera showed up on campus and his inflammatory email is the centerpiece of the Forde column"

Shut Up & Teach (http://chapelboro.com/Shut-Up-And-Teach/9737820?pid=253832)

The last line in his article sums up the whole UNC attitude to the problem "and help get us out of the mess as best they can".

Notice there is nothing about gettting to the truth, finding out what is broken and fix it.... just get us out of this mess....

That must be the new Carolina Way.... get us out of this mess as best they can.....

BD80
08-06-2012, 10:52 AM
The last line in his article sums up the whole UNC attitude to the problem "and help get us out of the mess as best they can".

Notice there is nothing about gettting to the truth, finding out what is broken and fix it.... just get us out of this mess....

That must be the new Carolina Way.... get us out of this mess as best they can.....

This explains the altitude that Chapel "Hill" has accumulated. Years of sweeping such matters under the rug. Nothing to see here, pay no attention to that growing mound.

devildeac
08-06-2012, 06:55 PM
Not sure, but if Art Chansky has his way, there will be a "Silencing Of the Faculty". Per his line of thinking, those folks should teach, and let the AD or SID manage damage control when it comes to athletics.

One key quote:
"Sue Estroff, a 30-year tenured professor who was quoted frequently during her days as the Faculty Chair, and history professor Jay Smith might have been speaking the painful truth in the Yahoo column. But who are they to be spokespersons for UNC during such treacherous times? Who appointed them faculty mouthpieces to make a bad situation worse? Smith started when the New York Times’ Joe Nocera showed up on campus and his inflammatory email is the centerpiece of the Forde column"

Shut Up & Teach (http://chapelboro.com/Shut-Up-And-Teach/9737820?pid=253832)


Art had better watch out what he writes or someone just might reveal to his mindless carolina faithful what one of his computer passwords is...

(hint: a part of it contains Ozzie's favorite expression...)

BWAHAHAHA

DukieInKansas
08-06-2012, 08:30 PM
Art had better watch out what he writes or someone just might reveal to his mindless carolina faithful what one of his computer passwords is...

(hint: a part of it contains Ozzie's favorite expression...)

BWAHAHAHA
I'm not telling! But it make me chuckle everytime I see Art's name.

OldPhiKap
08-06-2012, 09:44 PM
Art had better watch out what he writes or someone just might reveal to his mindless carolina faithful what one of his computer passwords is...

(hint: a part of it contains Ozzie's favorite expression...)

BWAHAHAHA

Never would have thought Art would use "Go to Hell Carolina" as part of his password. Does make it hard to guess, though.

BD80
08-06-2012, 10:13 PM
Never would have thought Art would use "Go to Hell Carolina" as part of his password. Does make it hard to guess, though.

I thought carolina folk used 1-2-3-4-5 as their password.

devildeac
08-06-2012, 10:24 PM
Never would have thought Art would use "Go to Hell Carolina" as part of his password. Does make it hard to guess, though.

He was duped into using something resembling that expression;).

devildeac
08-06-2012, 10:26 PM
I thought carolina folk used 1-2-3-4-5 as their password.

Not possible. That would require higher math skills:rolleyes:.

94duke
08-07-2012, 10:58 AM
I thought carolina folk used 1-2-3-4-5 as their password.

"That's the kind of thing an idiot would have on his luggage!"
-Spaceballs

Newton_14
08-07-2012, 10:25 PM
Here is another article raising more issues. Abnormal amount of students taking independent studies, with many of them getting double the amount of normal credit hours. Normal is 3, most received 6. Large percentage of the enrolled students were current and/or former football and basketball players.

UNC Profs: Af-AM courses exceeded norm (http://www.wral.com/news/local/wral_investigates/story/11402206/)

From the article:

The UNC internal report, however, only covered lecture courses. WRAL News looked at data about independent study courses offered by the department and found additional red flags – lots of athletes with the potential for earning twice the credit offered by other departments for similar work.

An independent study is defined as a class in which a student is doing in-depth work outside of the classroom with supervision from a faculty member. UNC's review did mention a problem with how independent studies were tracked in the African and Afro-American Studies Department, but it didn't go in-depth about those issues.

Also, it appears Prof Jay Smith did not get the Chansky memo to "Shut up & Teach", as he is quoted again in this article:


The numbers also seemed high to Jay Smith, a professor in the history department. I more than 20 years at UNC, Smith said he has only taught two independent study courses with one student each.

Smith also raised concerns about the number of athletes in some of the courses.

"You wonder how those athletes wound up in that course, what they were doing when they got there, what purpose that particular course was serving in their own academic schedules," he said.

oldnavy
08-08-2012, 06:21 AM
Here is another article raising more issues. Abnormal amount of students taking independent studies, with many of them getting double the amount of normal credit hours. Normal is 3, most received 6. Large percentage of the enrolled students were current and/or former football and basketball players.

UNC Profs: Af-AM courses exceeded norm (http://www.wral.com/news/local/wral_investigates/story/11402206/)

From the article:


Also, it appears Prof Jay Smith did not get the Chansky memo to "Shut up & Teach", as he is quoted again in this article:

Prof Smith may be wondering how they got there and why, but I think most of us (he as well) really know the answer to that question.

Is there underlying tension between the academic staff and the athletic staff at UNC... they don't seem to be on the same page do they?

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-08-2012, 09:00 AM
You know, all this stuff makes me wonder how many other schools are out there right now in full CYA mode, battening down the hatches and hoping to heaven that no one pokes around the "preferred" majors for their student-athlete population. Can only guess that UNC being the only school is about as likely as earth being the only inhabited planet in the entire universe. :eek:

Lord Ash
08-08-2012, 10:40 AM
I am amazed that this story has gone absolutely nowhere, nationally. Nowhere. Doesn't this seem like a pretty big story? Strange to me.

UrinalCake
08-08-2012, 10:45 AM
Is there underlying tension between the academic staff and the athletic staff at UNC... they don't seem to be on the same page do they?

I got that feeling too, almost like the professors who have been quoted in these articles have been upset about the treatment that the athletes get for a while now, and are unloading now that they finally have an outlet for it. Just my opinion though.

PackMan97
08-08-2012, 10:45 AM
You know, all this stuff makes me wonder how many other schools are out there right now in full CYA mode, battening down the hatches and hoping to heaven that no one pokes around the "preferred" majors for their student-athlete population. Can only guess that UNC being the only school is about as likely as earth being the only inhabited planet in the entire universe. :eek:

There is a HUGE difference between a preferred major with crib courses and what Carolina was/is doing. Carolina had fake courses that no one recalls teaching, that never had a classroom assigned or a class time assigned. That there is no evidence of a syllabus or work assigned. They also had courses that have forged grade change forms. They have courses that are normally 3 credit hours being given 6 credit hours. They have independent study courses that have many times the enrollment (over 10 students) of legit independent study courses (usually 1 to 2). They have a professor teaching 11 summer school courses (and not getting paid for most of them) when the University guideline is no more than 4 or 5. Carolina has an athlete admitting they switched from Communications to Afro-American/African studies because they would have had to attend class if they stayed in Communications.

Duke can have their Sociology major, State their Parks & Rec Management, Wake their Communications...but the difference is that around campus you see the athletes in these classes showing up and turning in assignments. That's the difference. Not to mention, the less clustering you see in majors the more likely they are legit simply because then you have to have more people involved and eventually someone will talk, even accidentally.

grit74
08-08-2012, 11:13 AM
There is a HUGE difference between a preferred major with crib courses and what Carolina was/is doing. Carolina had fake courses that no one recalls teaching, that never had a classroom assigned or a class time assigned. That there is no evidence of a syllabus or work assigned. They also had courses that have forged grade change forms. They have courses that are normally 3 credit hours being given 6 credit hours. They have independent study courses that have many times the enrollment (over 10 students) of legit independent study courses (usually 1 to 2). They have a professor teaching 11 summer school courses (and not getting paid for most of them) when the University guideline is no more than 4 or 5. Carolina has an athlete admitting they switched from Communications to Afro-American/African studies because they would have had to attend class if they stayed in Communications.

Duke can have their Sociology major, State their Parks & Rec Management, Wake their Communications...but the difference is that around campus you see the athletes in these classes showing up and turning in assignments. That's the difference. Not to mention, the less clustering you see in majors the more likely they are legit simply because then you have to have more people involved and eventually someone will talk, even accidentally.

Exactly! This is not a "everyone does it but maybe UNC is doing a bit more" situation. And it must be said, so far every internal review by UNC turns out to be misleading and incomplete. The claim that the mess was due to only two people--dept. chair and admin.--has been blown out of the water. Yet, the same senior administrators for athletic advising, compliance, etc., are still there. Some have been promoted.

gumbomoop
08-08-2012, 11:16 AM
There is a HUGE difference between a preferred major with crib courses and what Carolina was/is doing. Carolina had fake courses that no one recalls teaching, that never had a classroom assigned or a class time assigned. That there is no evidence of a syllabus or work assigned. They also had courses that have forged grade change forms. They have courses that are normally 3 credit hours being given 6 credit hours. They have independent study courses that have many times the enrollment (over 10 students) of legit independent study courses (usually 1 to 2). They have a professor teaching 11 summer school courses (and not getting paid for most of them) when the University guideline is no more than 4 or 5. Carolina has an athlete admitting they switched from Communications to Afro-American/African studies because they would have had to attend class if they stayed in Communications.

Kudos to PackMan97 for reminding us of the specifics here, for they are the key to why this is different. I suppose it's possible that these things are common, but until other universities are caught doing this crap, UNC is alone out there in very shady territory. They may still get away with it, of course.

And it's the outrage here that seems finally to have pushed some UNC faculty to be, well, outraged.


... almost like the professors who have been quoted in these articles have been upset about the treatment that the athletes get for a while now, and are unloading now that they finally have an outlet for it.

I'd guess that a few UNC faculty over the years may have been dismayed by special treatment for athletes, but even some of them would be Heel fans, too. But, again, the specific details of this multiple-fraud are too much for any self-respecting academic to stomach. Can't tell yet how many UNC faculty are actually self-respecting, but at least some have come forward publicly; and I imagine quite a few are talking privately. They're in a tough spot.

gumbomoop
08-08-2012, 11:53 AM
FYI - ESPN has posted today several stories on UNC scandals, and a good article, too, on academic support counsellors.

Robbi Pickeral provides a good summary and Roy Williams's comments.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8243813/academic-scandal-embroils-north-carolina-tar-heels-ncaa-stays-quiet

Dana O'Neill characterizes NCAA decision, thus far, not to investigate UNC as "baloney" and "hypocrisy."

http://proxy.espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8243779/north-carolina-tar-heels-academic-scandal-exemplifies-ncaa-hypocrisy

Focus of this article is on new APR standards increasing the pressure.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8242892/as-standards-increase-does-pressure-academic-support-staff-men-basketball

OldPhiKap
08-08-2012, 12:02 PM
FYI - ESPN has posted today several stories on UNC scandals, and a good article, too, on academic support counsellors.

Robbi Pickeral provides a good summary and Roy Williams's comments.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8243813/academic-scandal-embroils-north-carolina-tar-heels-ncaa-stays-quiet

Dana O'Neill characterizes NCAA decision, thus far, not to investigate UNC as "baloney" and "hypocrisy."

http://proxy.espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8243779/north-carolina-tar-heels-academic-scandal-exemplifies-ncaa-hypocrisy

Focus of this article is on new APR standards increasing the pressure.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8242892/as-standards-increase-does-pressure-academic-support-staff-men-basketball

Roy Williams:


"I'm telling you, it is not an issue for basketball. It is a university issue; it is an academic issue,'' Williams told ESPN.com recently when asked about the scandal again. "Nobody has come to me and said, 'We have problems with basketball.' In my opinion, we don't, and I'm not going to use my time trying to find something that's probably not there."

* * * *

Williams, for one, would like to look forward, not back. He said he's been "disturbed" and "discouraged" by what has occurred, "but at some point it's got to come to an end, and people have got to let us go on. … Mistakes have been made, [but] we're making great steps to improve everything."

(my emphasis)



Bold leadership there, Huck. Duck, cover, shuffle forward.

Now, he's throwing the University under the bus. What a maroon.

Of course, if it is only a university problem, why is he involved in "making great steps to improve everything"?

Fishy.

Olympic Fan
08-08-2012, 12:09 PM
I am amazed that this story has gone absolutely nowhere, nationally. Nowhere. Doesn't this seem like a pretty big story? Strange to me.

Lead article today on EPN's College BASKETBALL page:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

gumbomoop links to Robbi Pickerel's story, but you need to click on the college basketball page to get the full i9mpact. In the modern sports world, that's about as "national" as you can get.

moonpie23
08-08-2012, 12:15 PM
ugh.....this is so irritating......they are gonna skate i'm telling you.....somehow, they've cut a deal with the ncaa to cop to a some football stuff and have the entire investigation considered "complete" and "over"......

this it all gonna blow over....

jimsumner
08-08-2012, 12:18 PM
Roy Williams:

(my emphasis)



Bold leadership there, Huck. Duck, cover, shuffle forward.

Now, he's throwing the University under the bus. What a maroon.

Of course, if it is only a university problem, why is he involved in "making great steps to improve everything"?

Fishy.

Couldn't this argument be made by any criminal? "Sure, banks were robbed, mistakes were made. But at some point, we just have to forget about the past and move forward."

gumbomoop
08-08-2012, 12:26 PM
Lead article today on EPN's College BASKETBALL page:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

gumbomoop links to Robbi Pickerel's story, but you need to click on the college basketball page to get the full i9mpact. In the modern sports world, that's about as "national" as you can get.

Yes, Olympic Fan is right about full impact, as CB page includes the words "scandal" and "shadow," not to mention a big photo with the UNC mascot and flag in the spotlight. Talk about being hoist by one's own petard, a very unwelcome spotlight.

gumbomoop
08-08-2012, 12:31 PM
Couldn't this argument be made by any criminal? "Sure, banks were robbed, mistakes were made. But at some point, we just have to forget about the past and move forward."

Always, always, a red flag. Sooner or later, "mistakes were made" will replace "the dog was kicked" [Yeah, we know, but who kicked the dog?] as the classic passive-voice deflection.

devildeac
08-08-2012, 07:58 PM
Not sure, but if Art Chansky has his way, there will be a "Silencing Of the Faculty". Per his line of thinking, those folks should teach, and let the AD or SID manage damage control when it comes to athletics.

One key quote:
"Sue Estroff, a 30-year tenured professor who was quoted frequently during her days as the Faculty Chair, and history professor Jay Smith might have been speaking the painful truth in the Yahoo column. But who are they to be spokespersons for UNC during such treacherous times? Who appointed them faculty mouthpieces to make a bad situation worse? Smith started when the New York Times’ Joe Nocera showed up on campus and his inflammatory email is the centerpiece of the Forde column"

Shut Up & Teach (http://chapelboro.com/Shut-Up-And-Teach/9737820?pid=253832)

From one of our evil genius posters over on crazietalk.net (CTN) from about 18 months ago:

"So I arrive to work this morning with a request from one of my customers. "Would you please create an account for Art Chansky"

Yes, THAT Art Chansky.....

So, I pondered and struggled with the amount of power I now have and decided that I could not let this go without some amount of revenge for all that he has said about my beloved Blue Devils over the years....but how to do it without being obvious??

Then it hit me...his password. Thus, his initial password was created using several variants of uppercase, lowercase, and underscore of the following:

9f9f9f9f
Such satisfaction when I watched him type it in to access his account, I was almost brought to tears of laughter and joy."

27442744

OldPhiKap
08-08-2012, 10:42 PM
Couldn't this argument be made by any criminal? "Sure, banks were robbed, mistakes were made. But at some point, we just have to forget about the past and move forward."

We're both old enough to remember Nixon, after all.

NSDukeFan
08-09-2012, 08:41 AM
We're both old enough to remember Nixon, after all.

Yeah, Otis sure could steal bases...oh, you mean THAT Nixon, yeah Norm sure was good in the backcourt for the Lakers...;)

JTH
08-11-2012, 09:11 AM
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/09/3444808/judge-media-lawyers-may-review.html

It seems that the judge has ruled that the records can be reviewed by the media's attorneys but, it isn't clear if that information can be publicly released.

Any thoughts from our legal experts?

Acymetric
08-11-2012, 11:18 AM
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/09/3444808/judge-media-lawyers-may-review.html

It seems that the judge has ruled that the records can be reviewed by the media's attorneys but, it isn't clear if that information can be publicly released.

Any thoughts from our legal experts?

People keep saying this, but it's pretty clear to me that the judge is saying that business related calls made on a personal cell phone would be released after a review to remove personal calls. I don't see where there is room in the ruling for the possibility of not releasing them. Why bother letting anyone review them to begin with if that were the case?

PackMan97
08-13-2012, 03:11 AM
Looks like UNC posted a "test transcript" on how they keep players eligible...happens to be of Julius Peppers. Lots of good stuff in there. A lot of poor grades outside of AFAM, a lot of B's inside. One summer session he's needs an A to stay eligible, and that's the only class he ever receives in A in...LOL! Should be a fun Monday for everyone. Read more at Pack Pride.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=2515&t=9224321

...and my new personal hero, Dan Kane, drops a nice hammer on the story.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/iteam/test-unc-transcript-with-similarities-to-academic-fraud-case-may-be-julius-peppers

Information wants to be free

BD80
08-13-2012, 08:14 AM
Looks like UNC posted a "test transcript" on how they keep players eligible...happens to be of Julius Peppers. Lots of good stuff in there. A lot of poor grades outside of AFAM, a lot of B's inside. One summer session he's needs an A to stay eligible, and that's the only class he ever receives in A in...LOL! Should be a fun Monday for everyone. Read more at Pack Pride.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=2515&t=9224321

...and my new personal hero, Dan Kane, drops a nice hammer on the story.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/iteam/test-unc-transcript-with-similarities-to-academic-fraud-case-may-be-julius-peppers

Information wants to be free

Ruh, roh. This should be trouble.

Well at least it doesn't involve a basketball player. Oh, wait...

Why on earth did unc publish a "test" transcript? Got to be one of the dumbest moves ever. That's the carolina way ...

Will ol' roy be able to recruit once it becomes clear that his players will actually have to attend classes and do real classwork?

Or will carolina basketball players EVER have to attend class and do real classwork? Looks like THAT is the carolina way ...

slower
08-13-2012, 08:24 AM
Looks like UNC posted a "test transcript" on how they keep players eligible...happens to be of Julius Peppers. Lots of good stuff in there. A lot of poor grades outside of AFAM, a lot of B's inside. One summer session he's needs an A to stay eligible, and that's the only class he ever receives in A in...LOL! Should be a fun Monday for everyone. Read more at Pack Pride.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=2515&t=9224321

...and my new personal hero, Dan Kane, drops a nice hammer on the story.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/iteam/test-unc-transcript-with-similarities-to-academic-fraud-case-may-be-julius-peppers

Information wants to be free

404 error - looks like they done shut it down. :p

But I DID see it earlier - was VERY impressed with Mr. Peppers performance in his "French Theater in Translation" course. Who knew he was bilingual?

PackMan97
08-13-2012, 08:30 AM
404 error - looks like they done shut it down. :p

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/13/2266292/transcript-in-unc-probe-may-be.html

new link

OldPhiKap
08-13-2012, 08:41 AM
Why on earth did unc publish a "test" transcript? Got to be one of the dumbest moves ever.

I don't get this, either. And if you were going to run a test transcript for some strange reason, wouldn't you choose to release a test transcript that actually had good grades?


Will ol' roy be able to recruit once it becomes clear that his players will actually have to attend classes and do real classwork?

Or will carolina basketball players EVER have to attend class and do real classwork? Looks like THAT is the carolina way ...

Looks like "The Carolina Way," like Ol' Roy, is highly overrated.

devilsadvocate85
08-13-2012, 09:06 AM
I don't get this, either. And if you were going to run a test transcript for some strange reason, wouldn't you choose to release a test transcript that actually had good grades?



Looks like "The Carolina Way," like Ol' Roy, is highly overrated.

John Swofford left UNC to become Commissioner of the ACC in 1997. Dick Baddour took over at this time.

It would not be pretty for the ACC if it were to come out that this was going on under Swofford's watch. I'm guessing he would resign. The timeline appears to be creeping closer and closer to that threshold. At least for me, it's hard to believe that this whole thing got started to keep Julius Peppers eligible.

moonpie23
08-13-2012, 09:35 AM
heyyyyyyyyy..........maybe this IS gonna go somewhere......

this could be the biggest under-the-rug scandal since roger MILHAUS goodell burned the tapes.....

Bluedog
08-13-2012, 10:55 AM
One thing I found somewhat surprising on Peppers' alleged transcript is that UNC even offers Algebra I to its students - a course typically taken in 9th grade and most Duke students take in junior high. (Peppers also managed to fail it.) I understand it at a school like Kentucky, but I thought UNC was supposed to be one of the best schools in the nation...Incidentally, Duke's most basic math course offered is "Laboratory Calculus and Functions I," a class that is a full three years ahead of UNC's "Algebra."

grit74
08-13-2012, 11:20 AM
One thing I found somewhat surprising on Peppers' alleged transcript is that UNC even offers Algebra I to its students - a course typically taken in 9th grade and most Duke students take in junior high. (Peppers also managed to fail it.) I understand it at a school like Kentucky, but I thought UNC was supposed to be one of the best schools in the nation...Incidentally, Duke's most basic math course offered is "Laboratory Calculus and Functions I," a class that is a full three years ahead of UNC's "Algebra."

I thought algebra was required for admission to UNC.

allenmurray
08-13-2012, 11:27 AM
I thought algebra was required for admission to UNC.

It is a requirement for admission to any school in the UNC system, and has been for quite a while. In fact not only is Algebra I a requirement, but so is at least one math course for which Algebra I is a pre-requisite.

It is very rare for a student to be admitted to UNC-Chapel Hill who did not have as their highest math course in high schol either Calculus or AP Statistics (or both). Very rare. Unless you are really good at basketball or football - then appraantly, not so rare.

Bluedog
08-13-2012, 11:35 AM
I thought algebra was required for admission to UNC.

You're right.

To be considered for admission [to UNC]....a student should present a minimum of 16 units of high school coursework [...] including these requirements:
at least four units of college preparatory mathematics (two algebra, one geometry and a higher level mathematics course for which algebra II is a prerequisite);*
http://admissions.unc.edu/Apply/First_Year_Students/MCR.html

But somehow, they still offer, "MATH 110, Algebra: Basic algebraic expressions, functions, exponents, logarithms," which is a prereq for "Math 130: Trigonometry and Analytic Geometry" and then Calculus. Don't ask me...
http://math.unc.edu/for-undergrads/course-descriptions

^Edit: what allenmurray said.

CameronBornAndBred
08-13-2012, 11:48 AM
It is a requirement for admission to any school in the UNC system, and has been for quite a while. In fact not only is Algebra I a requirement, but so is at least one math course for which Algebra I is a pre-requisite.


Hell, it's a requirement if you want to graduate high school.


High School Graduation (College Prep Diploma)
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR NORTH CAROLINA PUBLIC SCHOOLS

Grade 9-12 Subject Units Required
Mathematics -- 4 units
(Algebra I, II, Geometry & one beyond Algebra II)
http://www.ncdnpe.org/hhh112.aspx

allenmurray
08-13-2012, 12:09 PM
You're right.

But somehow, they still offer, "MATH 110, Algebra: Basic algebraic expressions, functions, exponents, logarithms," which is a prereq for "Math 130: Trigonometry and Analytic Geometry" and then Calculus. Don't ask me...


I can sort of understand why a university might offer a "non-credit" or maybe a reduced-credit" course in Algebra. I have a friend who is currently in the doctoral engineering program at Duke. He tutors some high school kids in calculus for extra $$. He said to me one time that the hardest part of calculus is remembering all the algebra you forgot.

diablesseblu
08-13-2012, 12:19 PM
Re: Algebra and its appearance in the UNC course catalog

It could be that this is taught to satisfy the college math requirements to qualify for an NC teaching certificate. I attended an UG school where one could not major in education. It had to be a minor (history major here). Those of us pursuing a certificate had to take 18 hrs. at least a couple of semesters to finish our requirements.

I elected to take their "College Algebra" rather than a calculus course just to balance my workload. The class was taught by regular mathematics faulty and bore no relation to the level of Algebra I had in 8th grade.

That said, don't take this as an apology for what's going on at UNC. It looks like the academic fraud has been present for a long time and on many levels.

arnie
08-13-2012, 02:37 PM
Looks like UNC posted a "test transcript" on how they keep players eligible...happens to be of Julius Peppers. Lots of good stuff in there. A lot of poor grades outside of AFAM, a lot of B's inside. One summer session he's needs an A to stay eligible, and that's the only class he ever receives in A in...LOL! Should be a fun Monday for everyone. Read more at Pack Pride.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=2515&t=9224321

...and my new personal hero, Dan Kane, drops a nice hammer on the story.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/iteam/test-unc-transcript-with-similarities-to-academic-fraud-case-may-be-julius-peppers

Information wants to be free

Posting Peppers' transcript may have been intentional - for all we know, this transcript might be the best one they could find from the past football decade. After all, he's probably more literate than Dexter Manley was after "finishing" college.

dpslaw
08-13-2012, 02:55 PM
Matt Hayes rips new ones for UNC and NCAA President Mark Emmert, respectively:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-08-13/north-carolina-academic-scandal-mark-emmert-ncaa-penn-state

Just wow.

roywhite
08-13-2012, 03:36 PM
Matt Hayes rips new ones for UNC and NCAA President Mark Emmert, respectively:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-08-13/north-carolina-academic-scandal-mark-emmert-ncaa-penn-state

Just wow.

Saw that and was about to post it myself. Scathing indeed.


Meanwhile, in Chapel Hill, N.C., the entire university is complicit in a systemic charade of bogus, no-show classes for athletes; a scheme that—you’re gonna love this part—the NCAA missed while investigating North Carolina over the past two years.

Fortunately, the man with the Big Stick has the Raleigh News & Observer doing the heavy lifting, exposing the real threat to the foundation of intercollegiate athletic sports. Or as my athletic director friend said, “Pandora’s Box.”



Emmert was last seen squirming a few weeks ago when asked a few tough questions by Bob Ley of ESPN. I'm not sure what his appetite is at this point for another use of the "big stick" as Hayes calls it.

BD80
08-13-2012, 03:37 PM
Matt Hayes rips new ones for UNC and NCAA President Mark Emmert, respectively:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-08-13/north-carolina-academic-scandal-mark-emmert-ncaa-penn-state

Just wow.


From 2007-2011, an internal review at UNC revealed 54 no-show classes in the Department of African and Afro American Studies where student-athletes were given grades for fake classes. The university says two department heads were responsible for the academic fraud, but the News & Observer says evidence suggests athletes were steered to classes by academic counselors assigned to the athletic department.

Think about that: the athletic department and a department of academics conspiring to keep students eligible so they can play games. ...

... we haven’t heard squat from [Emmert} about what will become the worst infractions case in the history of college sports. And that was before the latest mind-numbing details released Monday by the News & Observer: the gross case of academic fraud could go back a decade—and include North Carolina’s legendary men’s basketball program. ...

But there’s no avoiding academic fraud; no escape from what it exposes and how it jeopardizes the lifeblood of a multi-billion dollar, tax-exempt industry.

This isn't mere hyperbole ... there's some meat on this bone

Duvall
08-13-2012, 04:05 PM
Matt Hayes rips new ones for UNC and NCAA President Mark Emmert, respectively:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-08-13/north-carolina-academic-scandal-mark-emmert-ncaa-penn-state

Just wow.

Lot of anger out there in the college football-industrial complex.

BD80
08-13-2012, 04:08 PM
Anyone else amused that Peppers "earned" a "D" in "Applied Ethics" which led him to take the "no show" course in the summer to stay eligible?

I would comment on the irony, but he also got a "D" in English Comp and Rhetoric, so I feel that might be piling on.

Kewlswim
08-13-2012, 04:11 PM
Hi,

UNC, UK, name your school that dislikes Duke, the answer is always the same, "Why are you picking on us? They do this at Duke, why don't you go after them?" I know, it sounds ludicrous, but every time some school is found doing something wrong that is almost always the knee-jerk reaction. I was happily surprised folks at Penn State had the decency not to try the, "It's happening at Duke too" card when Sandusky was under fire.

GO DUKE!

wilko
08-13-2012, 05:02 PM
I have MAD respect for the bulldogs over at PackPride who refuse to let this issue fade away..
I am having a FANTASTIC time laughing at UNC getting caught with their britches down.

This is an evergreen. It keeps on giving. Never gets old Never gets tiring..

If it blows up and tarnishes the ACC image, discourages ND from their alleged partnership with the league..
I have to say it was worth it for THIS much fun to kick the Heels around.

hurleyfor3
08-13-2012, 05:24 PM
He got an F in "World Regional Geography".

Michael Jordan is ashamed.

JasonEvans
08-13-2012, 05:40 PM
The Sporting News article is about as loud as one can get in demanding action against UNC by the NCAA. I cannot imagine that Mark Emmert and his staff have not read it by now. The only question is if they will continue to just sit on their hands or if they will actually try to challenge mighty UNC.

The thing that may worry Emmert is that, unlike Penn State, UNC is likely to fight back. Penn State knew they were in a no win situation, so they took their punishment and played nice (though up until this weekend, some Penn State Board members were trying to challenge the NCAA's punishment). But, I suspect that UNC will fight the NCAA as much as they can if Emmert tries to hand down more sanctions here -- especially if those sanctions include the hallowed basketball program.

You know, ordinarily I would say that Carolina would be wise to get out in front on this thing and get an independent commission to look into everything and come up with systems and recommendations that would ensure this kind of academic fraud never happened at UNC again. That would be the smart thing to do... but the last time a school did an independent investigation, the findings of that investigation were used to hand down some of the most severe penalties the NCAA has ever levied. In other words, I doubt UNC will be hiring Louis Freeh to look into their little AFAM fraud problem.

-Jason "this ain't going away for Carolina... too many columnists and investigative reporters are all over it at this point" Evans

Duvall
08-13-2012, 06:01 PM
-Jason "this ain't going away for Carolina... too many columnists and investigative reporters are all over it at this point" Evans

You think so? I'm still not sure there's enough of a market for an embarrassing expose of UNC to keep this story going long enough to crack.

PallasAthena
08-13-2012, 06:36 PM
I just heard WRAL-TV report that Julius Peppers' current agent is his former academic advisor at UNC.

Is that even possible?

PallasAthena
08-13-2012, 06:38 PM
Attempts by WRAL to reach Peppers’ agent, Carl Carey, went unanswered Monday. Carey was Peppers’ academic advisor at UNC before becoming his professional agent.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/11423038/

roywhite
08-13-2012, 06:46 PM
Anyone else amused that Peppers "earned" a "D" in "Applied Ethics" which led him to take the "no show" course in the summer to stay eligible?

I would comment on the irony, but he also got a "D" in English Comp and Rhetoric, so I feel that might be piling on.

Would this transcript explain why the "Doctor" Peppers nickname never caught on?

PackMan97
08-13-2012, 07:01 PM
I just heard WRAL-TV report that Julius Peppers' current agent is his former academic advisor at UNC.

Is that even possible?

Yes. He is also the agent that Nyangaroo hired LAST SUMMER (2011) to teach a summer school course. Oh what a tangled web we weave.

cspan37421
08-13-2012, 08:19 PM
If the NCAA ever gets the guts to pursue this and lay down the appropriate punishment, the rest of the Triangle might just burst with schadenfreude. Heck, we might even need a new geometric term for the area.

Gewebe14
08-13-2012, 08:33 PM
Yes. He is also the agent that Nyangaroo hired LAST SUMMER (2011) to teach a summer school course. Oh what a tangled web we weave.

Yep, I believe that too has been known for quite some time, but never acted on by anyone

Atlanta Duke
08-13-2012, 08:51 PM
Hi,

I was happily surprised folks at Penn State had the decency not to try the, "It's happening at Duke too" card when Sandusky was under fire.

GO DUKE!

Well ... The Wall Street Journal went there:D

The WSJ ran an op-ed by Stuart Taylor and K.C. Johnson that compared the reaction of Penn State favorably to how Duke handled the lax scandal...

In recent years, two prominent American universities have experienced catastrophic leadership failures that exposed young people in their charge to horrible abuse. The failures grew out of a lack of courage to resist the demands of powerful special interests. As Penn State tries to reform its campus culture, what can it teach Duke? ...

It's possible that Penn State will fail to rehabilitate its currently tarnished image. But, unlike Duke, at least the school's leaders appear to understand that, in responding to scandal, a university must position itself on the right side of history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303933704577532891512167490.html

Duvall
08-13-2012, 09:01 PM
Well ... The Wall Street Journal went there:D

The WSJ ran an op-ed by Stuart Taylor and K.C. Johnson that compared the reaction of Penn State favorably to how Duke handled the lax scandal...

In recent years, two prominent American universities have experienced catastrophic leadership failures that exposed young people in their charge to horrible abuse. The failures grew out of a lack of courage to resist the demands of powerful special interests. As Penn State tries to reform its campus culture, what can it teach Duke? ...

It's possible that Penn State will fail to rehabilitate its currently tarnished image. But, unlike Duke, at least the school's leaders appear to understand that, in responding to scandal, a university must position itself on the right side of history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303933704577532891512167490.html

Comes a time when someone needs to tell you to take a knee and sit a few plays out.

Atlanta Duke
08-13-2012, 09:29 PM
Comes a time when someone needs to tell you to take a knee and sit a few plays out.

I apologize if my posting of the Wall Street Journal link indicates to you or anyone else that I agree with the arguments of the op-ed -I do not and certainly have no interest in rehashing the events of 2006 - 2007. Given my posts in the Sandusky thread I think it is pretty clear what my view is on how Penn State's administrators handled the Sandusky mess

I posted the link to illustrate that no matter how reprehensible the conduct by another academic institution you can always count on someone in the media to contend that it pales in comparison to what has occurred at Duke

Sorry you apparently took offense

Duvall
08-13-2012, 09:36 PM
I apologize if my posting of the Wall Street Journal link indicates to you or anyone else that I agree with the arguments of the op-ed -I do not and certainly have no interest in rehashing the events of 2006 - 2007. Given my posts in the Sandusky thread I think it is pretty clear what my view is on how Penn State's administrators handled the Sandusky mess

I posted the link to illustrate that no matter how reprehensible the conduct by another academic institution you can always count on someone in the media to contend that it pales in comparison to what has occurred at Duke

Sorry you apparently took offense

Oh, I was talking about the authors of the column. Sorry about not being clear.

ncexnyc
08-13-2012, 09:41 PM
Quite a few people are having a great deal of fun with this, but where is this ultimately going? Reporters can keep writing new stories every week or so, but what are the results? Those of us here and the folks over on the different Wolf Pack sites will make their posts and get all worked up, but to date nothing actually is being done about this scandal.
Why is it that a state funded school is not being investigated by the States Attorney General, especially considering all of these claims that are surfacing? Is this such a political hot potato that no sane politician would even suggest looking into this matter, especially during a major election cycle?

Newton_14
08-13-2012, 10:00 PM
Quite a few people are having a great deal of fun with this, but where is this ultimately going? Reporters can keep writing new stories every week or so, but what are the results? Those of us here and the folks over on the different Wolf Pack sites will make their posts and get all worked up, but to date nothing actually is being done about this scandal.
Why is it that a state funded school is not being investigated by the States Attorney General, especially considering all of these claims that are surfacing? Is this such a political hot potato that no sane politician would even suggest looking into this matter, especially during a major election cycle?

You definitely have a point, but the pressure is building, albeit at a slow pace. Were this going on in Wolfpack land, Cleveland St would have already been handed the Death Penalty.

I am definitely skeptical, but at some point, the NCAA is either going to have to do something, or Emmert will come under a lot of fire. Especially given the statements he made with the Penn St. ruling.

It will be interesting to see if Sporting News article and the release of the Peppers transcript will stoke the fires super hot, or if they drift off into the wind having no real impact.

ncexnyc
08-13-2012, 10:26 PM
I’m not sure any type of sanctions will come as a result of this scandal. Maybe UNC is doing some type of internal investigation, but if so they are being quite secretive about it. What I’m seeing is the time proven, “hunker down in the bunker” mentality being exhibited by UNC. Powerful institutions love to play this game and more times than not they get away with it.
As we saw with the Butch Davis phone records, news agencies are being forced to use lawyers to get their hands on this info. All of this takes time and money, which UNC has quite a lot of to fight back with. They can play the stonewall game until this blows over the head of John Q. Public. Unless some bigwig pushes this matter, this will all pass away. I may be dead wrong, but I doubt it.

Classof06
08-13-2012, 11:38 PM
Comments per ESPN's Julius Peppers story:



Commenter #1: "I just drove through Chapel Hill and got a B- in AFAM Studies."


Replier: "If you had stopped for wine and cheese, you would've gotten an A."

cspan37421
08-14-2012, 06:36 AM
I’m not sure any type of sanctions will come as a result of this scandal. Maybe UNC is doing some type of internal investigation, but if so they are being quite secretive about it. What I’m seeing is the time proven, “hunker down in the bunker” mentality being exhibited by UNC. Powerful institutions love to play this game and more times than not they get away with it.
As we saw with the Butch Davis phone records, news agencies are being forced to use lawyers to get their hands on this info. All of this takes time and money, which UNC has quite a lot of to fight back with. They can play the stonewall game until this blows over the head of John Q. Public. Unless some bigwig pushes this matter, this will all pass away. I may be dead wrong, but I doubt it.

I would agree with you in most cases, but NCSU students/fans/boosters aren't letting it go, and that may make this case different from one depending solely on the indignation of John Q. Public. We might want to have their collective back on this.

It is interesting to note the tenacity with which NCSU's base is going after it. It goes a ways to proving an old UNC-CH gf of mine right when she once tried to put Duke in its place (via me) by saying, "You may think we're your rival, but you're not even our #1 rival." Me: "Who is your #1 rival, then?" Her: "State!"

PackMan97
08-14-2012, 09:23 AM
It is interesting to note the tenacity with which NCSU's base is going after it. It goes a ways to proving an old UNC-CH gf of mine right when she once tried to put Duke in its place (via me) by saying, "You may think we're your rival, but you're not even our #1 rival." Me: "Who is your #1 rival, then?" Her: "State!"

I'm sorry, Carolina is no longer our rival...didn't you get the memo? We simply wish to return over 20 years of "Amphibious", "If you can't go to college go to State", "Moo U", etc. We merely want to see Carolina live up to the ideals they claim to strive for.

In other news, dirtydankane.com happens to be registered to Carl Carey, Jr...Peppers college advisor/sports agent/unc professor.

cspan37421
08-14-2012, 10:56 AM
I'm sorry, Carolina is no longer our rival...didn't you get the memo? We simply wish to return over 20 years of "Amphibious", "If you can't go to college go to State", "Moo U", etc. We merely want to see Carolina live up to the ideals they claim to strive for.

Well, this was 20 years ago, so that's about right.

weezie
08-14-2012, 11:10 AM
Still, that college/go to state cheer is a great old chestnut...

PackMan97
08-14-2012, 11:52 AM
Still, that college/go to state cheer is a great old chestnut...

It's funny, most State fans are proud of the fact we are less selective with admissions, but tougher to graduate from than other Universities.

JasonEvans
08-14-2012, 12:02 PM
In other news, dirtydankane.com happens to be registered to Carl Carey, Jr...Peppers college advisor/sports agent/unc professor.

Yup, Carl Carey, the academic adviser ("take a few more AFAM classes, Julius") turned agent is... well... not smart.

Did Peppers agent create a website to smear reporter covering the UNC academic scandal? (http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/08/14/did-the-agent-for-julius-peppers-create-a-website-to-smear-a-reporter-covering-the-unc-academic-scandal/)

-Jason "these idiots cannot get out of their own way... hysterical" Evans

OldPhiKap
08-14-2012, 12:03 PM
It's funny, most State fans are proud of the fact we are less selective with admissions, but tougher to graduate from than other Universities.

State is an excellent institution, I take back all the mean things I said in my youth.

And I'll give credit where credit is due -- when they had a problem back in the day, they cleaned house -- including a well-loved coach who had brought them a NC. Can anyone seriously see Carolina having this same level of integrity?

Stay on their tails, my Pack brothers and sisters. Someone has to deflate the hot air balloon that is "The Carolina Way"

grit74
08-14-2012, 12:06 PM
It's funny, most State fans are proud of the fact we are less selective with admissions, but tougher to graduate from than other Universities.

That cheer, and "start the tractor," were always fun when I was in Cameron in the early 1970's.

I suppose opposing fans have the same fun with the U. of New Jersey jokes.

However, as an NC native, from the the farming hills at that, I have always been a bit uncomfortable with those cheers. As with the U of NJ stuff, they betray an unbecoming ignorance and a petty prejudice.

mgtr
08-14-2012, 12:17 PM
Well ... The Wall Street Journal went there:D

The WSJ ran an op-ed by Stuart Taylor and K.C. Johnson that compared the reaction of Penn State favorably to how Duke handled the lax scandal...

In recent years, two prominent American universities have experienced catastrophic leadership failures that exposed young people in their charge to horrible abuse. The failures grew out of a lack of courage to resist the demands of powerful special interests. As Penn State tries to reform its campus culture, what can it teach Duke? ...

It's possible that Penn State will fail to rehabilitate its currently tarnished image. But, unlike Duke, at least the school's leaders appear to understand that, in responding to scandal, a university must position itself on the right side of history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303933704577532891512167490.html

Are these guys nuts? Or is simply that they are lazy and/or cannot read. Oh, I get it, they are probably Penn State or UNC grads. If I were the head of the WSJ, this would be a firing offense.

buddy
08-14-2012, 02:58 PM
Are these guys nuts? Or is simply that they are lazy and/or cannot read. Oh, I get it, they are probably Penn State or UNC grads. If I were the head of the WSJ, this would be a firing offense.

I believe their point was that Penn State actually went and hired an independent third party--Louis Freeh--to investigate the University's actions. Where is the independent review of Duke's actions in the lacrosse case? And I don't mean the Bowen-Chambers whitewash. Faculty that absolutely abused lacrosse players because of who they were have never apologized, and have been rewarded with promotions. The professor who failed Kyle Dowd simply because he was a member of the team was never admonished. I'm sorry, but our University still has refused to face up to the discreditable treatment of the lacrosse players for--let's admit--a crime that never occurred. And our President has never said what is was that they did that "was bad enough." Whatever their motivation, Penn State has faced its culpability. Duke, not so much.

I think there is no appetite in Chapel Hill or within the legislature to investigate the academic shenigans at UNC. That is unfortunate. But I think the racial overtones are such that no academic wants to get involved, and politicians are scared. I always thought UNC was a fine academic institution (even if they have no taste in their choice of blue), but the continued stonewalling is seriously jeopardizing that standing.

OldPhiKap
08-14-2012, 03:02 PM
Are these guys nuts? Or is simply that they are lazy and/or cannot read. Oh, I get it, they are probably Penn State or UNC grads. If I were the head of the WSJ, this would be a firing offense.

I think one of the authors was a Duke grad IIRC. FWIW.

Duvall
08-14-2012, 03:05 PM
I believe their point was that Penn State actually went and hired an independent third party--Louis Freeh--to investigate the University's actions. Where is the independent review of Duke's actions in the lacrosse case? And I don't mean the Bowen-Chambers whitewash. Faculty that absolutely abused lacrosse players...

See, this is why you always pay attention to your context.

Monmouth77
08-14-2012, 03:17 PM
I believe their point was that Penn State actually went and hired an independent third party--Louis Freeh--to investigate the University's actions. Where is the independent review of Duke's actions in the lacrosse case? And I don't mean the Bowen-Chambers whitewash. Faculty that absolutely abused lacrosse players because of who they were have never apologized, and have been rewarded with promotions. The professor who failed Kyle Dowd simply because he was a member of the team was never admonished. I'm sorry, but our University still has refused to face up to the discreditable treatment of the lacrosse players for--let's admit--a crime that never occurred. And our President has never said what is was that they did that "was bad enough." Whatever their motivation, Penn State has faced its culpability. Duke, not so much.

I think there is no appetite in Chapel Hill or within the legislature to investigate the academic shenigans at UNC. That is unfortunate. But I think the racial overtones are such that no academic wants to get involved, and politicians are scared. I always thought UNC was a fine academic institution (even if they have no taste in their choice of blue), but the continued stonewalling is seriously jeopardizing that standing.

I am sorry, but there is just no comparing the gravity of Penn State University's actions to affirmatively cover-up child rape with the arguable missteps at Duke surrounding Crystal Mangum's false allegations.

Apart from comparing apples and oranges with an obvious axe to grind, that Wall Street Journal OpEd is total garbage for the simple reason that it nowhere acknowledges the role of a now-disbarred prosecutor in bringing what he had reason to know were false charges. Discussing certain faculty's members' rush to judgment without even mentioning that they too were duped by a bad-faith prosecutor is dishonest.

BD80
08-14-2012, 03:19 PM
A Gregggg Doyel coumn worth reading?

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19794788/north-carolina-cheated-and-prospered-and-now-its-time-for-the-reckoning

Not really, just a "me too" column advocating unc to do the right thing, including pulling down a couple of banners from the Smith Center.

Mentions that two of the "no show" AFAM classes had one basketball player as the sole enrollee. No way that player should be eligible - those wins -at least - should be gone.

mgtr
08-14-2012, 03:25 PM
I believe their point was that Penn State actually went and hired an independent third party--Louis Freeh--to investigate the University's actions. Where is the independent review of Duke's actions in the lacrosse case? And I don't mean the Bowen-Chambers whitewash. Faculty that absolutely abused lacrosse players because of who they were have never apologized, and have been rewarded with promotions. The professor who failed Kyle Dowd simply because he was a member of the team was never admonished. I'm sorry, but our University still has refused to face up to the discreditable treatment of the lacrosse players for--let's admit--a crime that never occurred. And our President has never said what is was that they did that "was bad enough." Whatever their motivation, Penn State has faced its culpability. Duke, not so much.

I think there is no appetite in Chapel Hill or within the legislature to investigate the academic shenigans at UNC. That is unfortunate. But I think the racial overtones are such that no academic wants to get involved, and politicians are scared. I always thought UNC was a fine academic institution (even if they have no taste in their choice of blue), but the continued stonewalling is seriously jeopardizing that standing.

Do we recall that there was no crime committed at Duke (well except for the idiot Duke faculty members who piled on with no evidence at all), but a huge obscene crime at Penn State. Some difference!

weezie
08-14-2012, 03:27 PM
It's funny, most State fans are proud of the fact we are less selective with admissions, but tougher to graduate from than other Universities.

You are correct, Sir. I have indeed heard that about Harvard University. Once they let you in, they can't admit they were wrong.

-jk
08-14-2012, 03:38 PM
Please do not revisit the LAX hoax here.

-jk

CameronBornAndBred
08-14-2012, 03:45 PM
A Gregggg Doyel coumn worth reading?

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19794788/north-carolina-cheated-and-prospered-and-now-its-time-for-the-reckoning

Not really, just a "me too" column advocating unc to do the right thing, including pulling down a couple of banners from the Smith Center.


Actually that one is worth reading. And if more "me toos" start getting vocal, the NCAA is not going to be able to keep ignoring the fact that they didn't finish the job they set out to do.

OldPhiKap
08-14-2012, 04:05 PM
Actually that one is worth reading. And if more "me toos" start getting vocal, the NCAA is not going to be able to keep ignoring the fact that they didn't finish the job they set out to do.

I think that is a lot stronger than a "me, too."

I've been thinking the NCAA will let this slide, but agree it may be getting beyond that point. Not sure who needs to push that point if the NCAA won't.

superdave
08-14-2012, 04:44 PM
Julius Peppers played 16 minutes. (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/college/men/boxscores/2000/04/01/fak_nav/) I'm just sayin......

moonpie23
08-14-2012, 05:19 PM
the percentage of "we might actually have a serious problem here" posts vs the "it's baloney cooked up by wuffies - we're gonna win the natty this year" is starting to shift to the former over on IC......there are some folks that are beginning to believe that there may be a fall in unc's immediate future (by that, i mean, before 2022)

wilko
08-14-2012, 05:31 PM
the percentage of "we might actually have a serious problem here" posts vs the "it's baloney cooked up by wuffies - we're gonna win the natty this year" is starting to shift to the former over on IC......there are some folks that are beginning to believe that there may be a fall in unc's immediate future (by that, i mean, before 2022)

<floyd> Tear down the wall.... tear down the wall</floyd>

OldPhiKap
08-14-2012, 06:04 PM
<floyd> Tear down the wall.... tear down the wall</floyd>

Or, Run Like Hell.

Is there anybody in there?

wilko
08-14-2012, 06:08 PM
Or, Run Like Hell.

Is there anybody in there?

:cool: :cool:
"After one of their turns" they'll cry "Mother" ... (and be convinced some is trying to break their stones)

roywhite
08-14-2012, 06:16 PM
Will we hear from Dr. Bill Friday?
It would be major if he comes out with a strong position against the academic abuses on the Hill

He's 92 now; maybe not as sharp, but still does his TV show and seems engaged
Always felt he was a good guy and a pretty straight shooter; he can't be happy about some of this

Charles Kuralt and David Brinkley would be nice to have around now, too.
Somebody of stature in the light blue world needs to speak out.