Big Man Usage Recent Years

[OldSchool]

I agree that the under-utilization applies not just to Miles but to all our big men.

And contrary to the myth in recruiting circles, it's not the development of the bigs, IMO the limiting factor has been our guards as has been observed in this thread.

Specific areas that have frustrated me lately:

1. Not hitting the big on the roll. This applies to Miles, Mason and even Ryan. And particularly with respect to Miles and Mason, because these guys are so athletic, the passes don't have to be thread-the-needle passes. As long as the guard can put it over the reach of the defender, there is a lot of room for error in that pass because those guys can go up and get it.

2. Not using baseline screens with timing passes. With the big bodies we had on the frontline, there is no reason why we couldn't free up a big using a baseline screen or screens in order to get him the ball close in while the defense is recovering from the screen. For this play to work, the guard has to get the ball to the big at just the right moment. The few times I noticed we tried these type of plays, the guard was almost always late in either recognizing the opening or delivering the ball. So we tended to default to telegraphed entry passes with a defender on the big's back.

3. Breaking the press. With athletic bigs who can run the floor well and are decent passers, we should have just abused any team trying to apply a full-court press by passing over the press using our bigs. Even where we were able to comfortably handle a full-court press, typically we did not push it quickly all the way to get that 2-on-1 at the rim. It was frustrating to see Duke struggle with a full-court press by some particular team and then watch UNC play the same team and burn the press repeatedly for lay-ups.

I'm hopeful that if Quinn emerges as our main point guard we will see significant improvement in getting the ball to the bigs in ways that give them better opportunities to score this year.

[brlftz]

1. Not hitting the big on the roll. This applies to Miles, Mason and even Ryan. And particularly with respect to Miles and Mason, because these guys are so athletic, the passes don't have to be thread-the-needle passes. As long as the guard can put it over the reach of the defender, there is a lot of room for error in that pass because those guys can go up and get it.

aaaaaaaamen. this particular item generates item throwing, hole in wall punching frustration.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

It's all about one word, commitment.

I doubt anyone can convince me that Duke guards were/are not talented enough to make a post entry pass. Or that the Duke bigs are/were not strong enough and talented enough to secure a spot under the basket and get off a quick, catch, turn, jump hook. Or a simple pump fake up an under move. Those moves can be taught. Opportunity inside is what has been missing for the bigs.

My own opinion is coach K could have added more post feeds to his team's play with Miles and Mason, but he's the coach and I recognize I'm just a college basketball fan with an opinion.

Coach K simply has not commited to using his big men as a primary scoring option in the low post very often. There are few plays designed to feed an entry pass below the rim. The bigs that come to Duke understand that.

Coach K likes the high screen game, not the baseline screens so much, and lots of motion.

Inside out is not how he likes to build his teams, or coach his team, and it's hard to argue with his success.

I'm not trying to say how Duke uses the bigs is bad, coach K wins.....it just is.

It's great that Miles made it to the NBA in the first round. If he's happy with his career at Duke, and he has said he was, then it was the right place for him.

But, as an individual player, I wonder how his game would have developed at a program like Georgetown, Kansas, or UNC.

[Faison1]

It's great that Miles made it to the NBA in the first round. If he's happy with his career at Duke, and he has said he was, then it was the right place for him.

But, as an individual player, I wonder how his game would have developed at a program like Georgetown, Kansas, or UNC.

Miles was drafted for 2 reasons: Athletic Ability, and Potential. Probably the same reasons he and his brothers were recruited to Duke.

Miles had plenty of opportunities when he was fed the ball within 10 feet of the rim or got a rebound. However, once he set up down low, his moves to the basket were rarely good. However, it was said he was one of the best practice players on the team.

So Wheat, you are saying he would have had a better career being coached at UNC?

What you seem to forget, is that it wasn't long ago that Duke was dominating UNC in the paint. Hanstravels/McBob's frosh year changed the trend. All it takes is a couple of recruiting makes/misses to change perception.

[OldSchool]

I doubt anyone can convince me that Duke guards were/are not talented enough to make a post entry pass.

Getting the bigs scoring opportunities is a lot more than simply making a post entry pass. And even if one considers only post entry passes, our guards have not been all that great.

Guards like Kyrie and Kendall really DO make a difference for the big men. Tyler and John are not any more capable of running the court than Miles and Mason, but when they ran the court often they were rewarded with a basket thanks to a laser pass from Kendall.

[niveklaen]

Miles was drafted for 2 reasons: Athletic Ability, and Potential. Probably the same reasons he and his brothers were recruited to Duke.

Miles had plenty of opportunities when he was fed the ball within 10 feet of the rim or got a rebound. However, once he set up down low, his moves to the basket were rarely good. However, it was said he was one of the best practice players on the team.

So Wheat, you are saying he would have had a better career being coached at UNC?

What you seem to forget, is that it wasn't long ago that Duke was dominating UNC in the paint. Hanstravels/McBob's frosh year changed the trend. All it takes is a couple of recruiting makes/misses to change perception.

Not sure I buy the bolded part. first, Hans/McBob's frosh year was what? 6 years ago? Before that it was S.Williams v May - May flopped in the NBA but he was an outstanding post in college and had several huge games against Duke - We did not dominate him. Before that it was Boozer v Chirs Lang - Yes we domiated that matchup. Before that it was Brand v Jamison - Brand was better, but did not dominate that matchup. Before that Duke has a 3 year void with no discernable post presence - hard to say we dominated then. Before that it was Parks v. Rasheed Wallace. Parks was good but I would not say that he dominated Wallace. Before that Laettner dominated Montross. Of course, at that point none of the kids we are recruiting now were alive. So we have dominated UNC in the post about 3 of the last 20 years...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

This is not about a Duke vs UNC thing regarding Miles.

It about any number of programs that would have probably given more post offensive focus to an athlete like Miles, and Mason for that matter, and possibly prepared them better as NBA interior players, which is where their future lies.

But, again, Miles and Mason both seem happy with their college careers so it really doesn't mean anything beyond what future recruits think of their potential roles if they chose Duke.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Guards like Kyrie and Kendall really DO make a difference for the big men.

This. In spades. Go back and watch the handful of games we had Kyrie throwing the ball up for Miles and Mason. It was a thing of beauty.

It must be summertime if we are having this conversation again...

My two cents - it isn't about the raw ability of the point guard as much as the style of play. What makes Kyrie special was that he was a very talented scorer but also loved the slick entry pass. To use a football term, he would put the ball where only his teammate could get it. For the Plumlees, that was frequently about 16 inches from the rim.

This style of ball is slick and fun to watch - Lob City anyone? I haven't seen enough of Quinn to get a sense of whether he has this sort of talent, but it would be great if he does. It completely changes the way that teams have to defend you and opens up those nice jump shots on the wing.

I wish Midnight Madness wasn't SO far away....

[Kedsy]

This. In spades. Go back and watch the handful of games we had Kyrie throwing the ball up for Miles and Mason. It was a thing of beauty.

Sorry, I'm not completely buying into this. Yes, Kyrie was good, and he threw better entry passes than anybody else on the team, but in the games Kyrie played for Duke, Miles averaged 4 points per game, so it's not like Miles was anything close to a big scorer when he had a great PG in the game with him. He averaged 5 points per game that same season in games Kyrie didn't play, and 6.6 ppg this past season, so it's not like Kyrie was getting the ball to Miles any more often than the other guards did, either.

[Wander]

Sorry, I'm not completely buying into this. Yes, Kyrie was good, and he threw better entry passes than anybody else on the team, but in the games Kyrie played for Duke, Miles averaged 4 points per game, so it's not like Miles was anything close to a big scorer when he had a great PG in the game with him. He averaged 5 points per game that same season in games Kyrie didn't play, and 6.6 ppg this past season, so it's not like Kyrie was getting the ball to Miles any more often than the other guards did, either.

As you've pointed out before, Miles' primary role at Duke has never been that of a scorer, with or without Kyrie, and that's okay. Looking at Mason's stats - who IS expected to provide scoring - is more telling. He scored significantly better with Kyrie than without two seasons ago. I suppose you could argue sample size, but to me Kyrie was pretty clearly a huge difference.

I'm on board with the original post that a good chunk of our problems with post play recently has actually been poor passing ability by the guards.

[Kedsy]

I suppose you could argue sample size, but to me Kyrie was pretty clearly a huge difference.

Well, I think sample size could have had something to do with it, especially since Mason had that one great outlier against Marquette and he played zero ACC games with Kyrie.

[Wander]

Well, I think sample size could have had something to do with it, especially since Mason had that one great outlier against Marquette and he played zero ACC games with Kyrie.

If you think it's a coincidence or statistical fluke that the game in which Mason had the most points, shots made, and shots attempted of his career was one of the few games that came with Kyrie (by my count, he's played under 10% of his career games with Kyrie), we'll just agree to disagree.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry, I'm not completely buying into this...

Okay, that's fine. I'm not saying that he was a magic potion that made our Plumlees amazing scorers. I'm saying that his style of play allowed for our bigs to get the ball in positions to score. When you have a PG that can shoot, drive, lob, and effectively kick to shooters, you are a very difficult team to defend. I'd argue that Kyrie was the only Duke PG in recent (Coach K years) memory who had each of these threats. Not a knock on any of our guards we've had in that time-frame, it's quite a rarity. It gives everyone on the team a lot more freedom and forces the defense into really tough decisions.

Man, the boards are really snippy this week. Is it the heat? That's my excuse.

[Kedsy]

If you think it's a coincidence or statistical fluke that the game in which Mason had the most points, shots made, and shots attempted of his career was one of the few games that came with Kyrie (by my count, he's played under 10% of his career games with Kyrie), we'll just agree to disagree.

I don't think it's necessarily a coincidence, but I do think the "Kyrie effect" on the Plumlees has often been overstated.


Okay, that's fine. I'm not saying that he was a magic potion that made our Plumlees amazing scorers. I'm saying that his style of play allowed for our bigs to get the ball in positions to score. When you have a PG that can shoot, drive, lob, and effectively kick to shooters, you are a very difficult team to defend. I'd argue that Kyrie was the only Duke PG in recent (Coach K years) memory who had each of these threats. Not a knock on any of our guards we've had in that time-frame, it's quite a rarity. It gives everyone on the team a lot more freedom and forces the defense into really tough decisions.

Man, the boards are really snippy this week. Is it the heat? That's my excuse.

I apologize if you think I was snippy; that wasn't my intent. Obviously everyone plays better when you have a great PG. The question we're debating appears to be are we "underutilizing" our big men. Some people (like Wheat) seem to think it's the "Duke system" that emphasizes guard play and doesn't bother passing to the bigs. I don't necessarily agree with that, although we clearly don't force it in to our big men on almost every possession like they do at some schools. Others say it's not that we're underutilizing them so much as it is we don't have guards talented enough to get our big men the ball. And while I agree that the better the PG the better scoring opportunities there are for everyone, I don't necessarily agree that our big men would be big scorers if only we had a Kyrie every season, either. Still others have, on occasion, blamed our big men for the "problem," saying they don't have adequate footwork or fundamentals, etc., but I don't think that's true, either.

What I think is some guys can best contribute to the team without being big scorers. It's not a problem, it's not a conspiracy, it's not something we have to fix. I will also say that in 2012-13, our 2nd and 3rd high scorers will almost certainly be big men. If you count Alex as a big, there's a decent chance our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th leading scorers will all be big men. And I don't think it will be because the players all of a sudden became better or Quinn miraculously transformed into Kyrie or Coach K finally got hold of Wheat's playbook. I think it will be because Coach K chooses a strategy each season that best utilizes his personnel. Plain and simple.

Again, I apologize if I was unintentionally snippy.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I apologize if you think I was snippy; that wasn't my intent. Obviously everyone plays better when you have a great PG. The question we're debating appears to be are we "underutilizing" our big men..

Apology accepted. My a/c broke yesterday, so I'm likely being over sensitive.

I think that we agree, and that we are just stating it in different ways. My point was that it isn't a weird "system-wide" conspiracy not feed the big men in the post, but a style of play by certain individuals and sometimes those skills and styles are more likely to get the ball inside than others. Kyrie was a freak talent and had a very watchable style with excellent distributing skills. In his brief tenure at PG, we got spoiled. If we continue to compare our PGs to him, we are likely to be disappointed more often than not. Coach is excellent at altering the game plan to work with whatever talents he has at his disposal. I'm sure that if he thought that our guards in 2012 could get the ball to the Plumlees for easy buckets, he would have done so.

Each season is a unique event and relies on a different cast of characters with different skills. I'm very happy the Miles has the opportunity to prove himself in the NBA and hope his brothers get to follow suit after great Duke careers.

[bluedevilsince72]

Does anyone really think Coach K said, "Hey mason and miles are scoring well, but i just like playing from the outside." Its ridiculous to think that Coach K didn't give his bigs opportunities. The bigs didn't get the ball because they didn't finish consistently. Miles will play the exact some role in the NBA that he did at Duke. He will get all his points in the NBA by running the floor, getting offensive rebounds, and hitting an occasional pick and pop jumper.

Mason will get his chances early next year. In the preseason, Im sure there will be a focus on playing inside-out with Mason. But, if he doesn't make good post moves, finishes poorly, and shoots below 50% from the foul line, Mason will not get touches inside as the season goes along.

When we have good bigs - Ferry, Laettner, Brand, and Boozer - they get a ton of touches which eventually leads to wide open threes when defenses have to collapse down low. When we have bigs that finish poorly in the post - Newton, McRoberts, Zoubek (excluding the last month of his senior year), Miles, and Mason, they don't get a lot of touches, become primarily screeners and offensive rebounders. As a result of a poor inside game, we struggle to get threes as easily because defenses can focus on the perimeter which results in early losses in the NCAAs when we are not hitting our jumpers and have no inside alternative.

Please stop this myth that Coach K doesn't use his bigs. You can say we have made mistakes in recruiting certain big men (i.e. McRoberts) and that the coaching staff doesn't do a great job of improving the bigs post moves and finishing ability, but please stop saying Coach K is wrong in not getting the ball to the bigs enough.

[OldSchool]

Please stop this myth that Coach K doesn't use his bigs. You can say we have made mistakes in recruiting certain big men (i.e. McRoberts) and that the coaching staff doesn't do a great job of improving the bigs post moves and finishing ability, but please stop saying Coach K is wrong in not getting the ball to the bigs enough.

I for one am not saying that Coach K doesn't develop his bigs. I think the coaching staff does an excellent job developing bigs.

I am not saying Coach K does not get the ball to bigs enough.

The problem is that Coach K does not play guard for the team. The people that ARE responsible for getting the ball to the bigs in positions where they can score have not done a very good job of that in the last couple of years. They have been not good at all with respect to feeding the big off the roll, and their timing in getting the ball into the post has not been that great, and we are typically reduced to telegraphed passes bounced at the knees of the big guys where all 8,000 people in the gym and the million watching on TV not to mention the defense know what the play is as our guard holds the ball and stares at the big for two or three seconds while he is preparing to make the pass, and so the defender pushes our bigs out further from the basket where they are less effective or knocks the ball away or a little guy comes up and fights for the ball at our big's knees.

I was very excited before last season because I thought we had the personnel to run a devastating pro-style high pick-and-roll attack.

With Miles and Mason setting the screen and rolling, and Austin (or even Seth) handling the ball, and Andre or Ryan in the corner, it looked on first impression unstoppable.

If the play is run to the side where our consistent 3-point shooters are setting up in the corner, that defender cannot cheat and slack off his man and double team the rolling big, because that leaves our shooter wide open.

With mobile bigs like Mason and Miles, as soon as their defender tries to hedge our guard from getting into the lane, it should be a straightforward matter of throwing the ball up over the hedger and letting our big go up and get it and take it to the rim (or pass out to the open shooter if that defender rotates).

If our guard Austin with his devastating first step gets a step on his man, and the big defender does not jump over to hedge, then Austin goes right to the rack and makes a play (including finding an open shooter or an open big if the defense collapses).

In theory it all seemed great. But it didn't work out that way. In reality, our guards were just not proficient enough to run it well.

Having said that, still we had a very good offense. Our guards were good outside shooters (as was Ryan) and Austin could use his dribble and quick first step to get into the lane and finish or get fouled.

I do think that had Austin stayed another year we would have see him develop into a real master of the pick and roll, to the benefit of our bigs in particular as well at the team as a whole. Oh well. It is what it is, and we can watch him develop in the NBA.

[Kedsy]

When we have good bigs - Ferry, Laettner, Brand, and Boozer - they get a ton of touches which eventually leads to wide open threes when defenses have to collapse down low. When we have bigs that finish poorly in the post - Newton, McRoberts, Zoubek (excluding the last month of his senior year), Miles, and Mason, they don't get a lot of touches, become primarily screeners and offensive rebounders. As a result of a poor inside game, we struggle to get threes as easily because defenses can focus on the perimeter which results in early losses in the NCAAs when we are not hitting our jumpers and have no inside alternative.

Career shooting percentage on 2-point field goals:

Ferry: 50.3%
Laettner: 58.6%
Brand: 61.2%
Boozer: 63.2%

Newton: 56.9%
McRoberts: 55.9%
Zoubek (excluding the last month of his senior year): 58.9%
Miles: 55.5%
Mason: 56.4%

So, yeah, Boozer and Brand finished slightly better than everyone else (although Z finished better than either Laettner or Ferry), but the numbers don't come close to justifying your theory. The bigs who you say "finish poorly" all shot 55.5% or better on their 2-point shots. So I think we may need another explanation.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

..... Coach K finally got hold of Wheat's playbook. I think it will be because Coach K chooses a strategy each season that best utilizes his personnel. Plain and simple.

I fully expect that coach K will run more offense through Mason next season in the post. He's too talented to ignore in the paint any longer. I can't imagine he would have returned otherwise without that promise, but that's just a guess.

....regarding passing into the post. I'm gonna use a UNC example simply because I know you guys watched UNC. 3rd string reserve Stillman White made some very good entry passes into the post to Zeller and Henson in his limited play after Marshall went out, and it was because it was practiced and made a priority. He wasn't Marshall, but he got it done. I doubt anyone would argue he's more talented than Rivers, Curry or Cook, but he could make that pass against some very good defensive teams on into the elite 8 because they practiced it and make it a priority.

All of Duke guards are fully capable of making that same pass, and Mason can get a spot on the blocks, given the motivation as part of a game plan.

[toooskies]

Career shooting percentage on 2-point field goals:

Ferry: 50.3%
Laettner: 58.6%
Brand: 61.2%
Boozer: 63.2%

Newton: 56.9%
McRoberts: 55.9%
Zoubek (excluding the last month of his senior year): 58.9%
Miles: 55.5%
Mason: 56.4%

So, yeah, Boozer and Brand finished slightly better than everyone else (although Z finished better than either Laettner or Ferry), but the numbers don't come close to justifying your theory. The bigs who you say "finish poorly" all shot 55.5% or better on their 2-point shots. So I think we may need another explanation.

My explanation is Mason in particular couldn't convert the free throws. He didn't make a lot of shots he got fouled on, so it was a bad efficiency play to run the offense through him. By the end of the year when Mason's shooting improved, it was too late to switch the offense.

[-jk]

I think the difference is that K, for the most part, coaches a more fluid, devil may care (pun intended) offense without set plays. Obviously, there are starting sets, but he's always given the players a lot of freedom to create. With a balanced team, there is a balanced output. With a strong interior (Brand and Boozer being poster children), the game moved inside. With a strong perimeter (how 'bout 2010), the inside players are marginalized.

It's not an exacting system, and i think the players are taught to play instinctually. The result is a wide variety of styles year to year, and difficulty preparing. How any given year will play out is predicated on how the parts come together. It isn't a "system" the way unc has been under Roy.

Roy's system requires a fast point, entry passes, and secondary breaks. It works, so long as he can recruit the pieces. And he usually can, given the predictable nature of his system and the national exposure. (Interestingly, Roy's inspiration, Deano, was much more flexible. But that's an entirely different discussion.)

Miles played on teams dominated by the perimeter, and never had the chance to excel on the inside. But then Boozer never really demonstrated a 15' jumper at Duke, either. But it was there. Maybe there's more to Miles's game, too, that showed up on the circuit that wasn't strong enough to outshine the perimeter. Or maybe Indiana wants a hard worker, strong and agile, who can do the dirty work he's shown an affinity for.

Time will tell.

-jk

[OldSchool]

Stop it with this Stillman White nonsense.

If Kendall doesn't go down with an injury, your guys in all likelihood would have been running around New Orleans with nets around their necks.

[BD80]

I fully expect that coach K will run more offense through Mason next season in the post. He's too talented to ignore in the paint any longer. I can't imagine he would have returned otherwise without that promise, but that's just a guess.

....regarding passing into the post. I'm gonna use a UNC example simply because I know you guys watched UNC. 3rd string reserve Stillman White made some very good entry passes into the post to Zeller and Henson in his limited play after Marshall went out, and it was because it was practiced and made a priority. He wasn't Marshall, but he got it done. I doubt anyone would argue he's more talented than Rivers, Curry or Cook, but he could make that pass against some very good defensive teams on into the elite 8 because they practiced it and make it a priority.

All of Duke guards are fully capable of making that same pass, and Mason can get a spot on the blocks, given the motivation as part of a game plan.

Horse hockey. White executed entry passes because that was unc's best chance of scoring - they had no 2 guard that could shoot and the pigeon couldn't create his own shot. Duke ran a high screen motion offense because that was Duke's best chance of scoring - a low post offense closes driving lanes.

Don't have the stats, but I'd bet the unc post players were more efficient with Marshall than with White or other point guards. A good point guard makes post play more efficient.

Comparing Miles' stats with Kyrie and without is very misleading, because Miles as a junior with Kyrie was the 4th post option behind Singler, Mason and Ryan (and Zoubek's shadow). Last year he was part of the three man post rotation. I would bet the Duke post players in Kyrie's year were more efficient with Kyrie than without.

Mason won't be (and hasn't been) "ignored" in the post. He has become a much more dependable post option and Rivers won't be there to dominate the ball. It will be interesting to see the offensive schemes this year. Unlike some coaches, we can't predict what coach K will do with a given group of players except that they will understand teamwork and floor spacing - which makes them valuable assets in the NBA.

[Kedsy]

Comparing Miles' stats with Kyrie and without is very misleading, because Miles as a junior with Kyrie was the 5th post option behind Singler, Zoubek, Mason and Ryan.

Well, if Miles was behind Zoubek (who had graduated the year before), than maybe there is a systemic problem...

[BD80]

Well, if Miles was behind Zoubek (who had graduated the year before), than maybe there is a systemic problem...

Z was so big his shadow dominated the post for a year after he left

[Kedsy]

Z was so big his shadow dominated the post for a year after he left

Well played, sir.