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freshmanjs
06-28-2012, 09:32 AM
Starting this thread so as not to further derail the Rodney Hood thread.

Why do people feel that there is some inherent importance to getting a college degree if you are a star athlete with tens of millions of dollars? The Greg Oden example was discussed in the other thread. It's great that he's attending classes if that's of interest to him. No criticism at all. But why all the praise? Would it be any less good if his post NBA plan was to invest his money, do sports broadcasting, do autographs and camps, retire, or whatever else he wanted? What is so intrinsically important about a college education? You could (i think) make a strong argument that getting a college degree is a poor use of time for him in financial terms.

I don't think the warnings about Iverson and Walker losing all of their money are relevant. Getting a college degree does not stop a person from wasting all of their money nor does it give a person the means to replace a huge income stream.

-jk
06-28-2012, 10:58 AM
Well, most NFL and NBA (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/story/2012-04-22/Pro-athletes-and-financial-trouble/54465664/1) retirees are broke or almost so a few years after retiring.

Going for a degree has a couple obvious benefits - self-discipline beyond sport, and a marketable skill.

Is it the only path to success? Of course not. But retiring from professional sports doesn't seem to be, either.

-jk

sagegrouse
06-28-2012, 11:12 AM
The obvious and not very philosphical reason for professional basketball players to complete their college degrees is to be eligible to coach in college. It's a great insurance policy.

sagegrouse

freshmanjs
06-28-2012, 11:23 AM
Well, most NFL and NBA (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/story/2012-04-22/Pro-athletes-and-financial-trouble/54465664/1) retirees are broke or almost so a few years after retiring.

Going for a degree has a couple obvious benefits - self-discipline beyond sport, and a marketable skill.

Is it the only path to success? Of course not. But retiring from professional sports doesn't seem to be, either.

-jk

Clearly the financial problems faced by top tier athletes are serious and widespread. Not sure how much correlation there is between lottery picks going back to school and their long term financial health.


The obvious and not very philosphical reason for professional basketball players to complete their college degrees is to be eligible to coach in college. It's a great insurance policy.

sagegrouse

this make sense. there are a lot of reasons i could think of that a person would want to get a degree. i'm talking more about the attitude folks seem to have that getting a degree is inherently virtuous for some reason and that people who do it are more praiseworthy than people who don't. the idea that oden is "wise" for doing it. to me, he would be wise for managing his $20 million well and pursuing his passions generally. i hope he's doing both. the wisdom of getting a degree is closely tied to his interests and not inherently of any value, imo.

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-28-2012, 11:45 AM
Perhaps there is the broader issue of what a college education can do to enhance anyone's life.

There is more to life than making and managing money. A balanced education can promote a richer, more satisfying existence as well as make multiple careers possible. (I used the term balanced, but some might substitute the term liberal arts.) Of course, I don't view becoming educated as a passive activity. :cool:

MCFinARL
06-28-2012, 12:05 PM
The obvious and not very philosphical reason for professional basketball players to complete their college degrees is to be eligible to coach in college. It's a great insurance policy.

sagegrouse

Agree--this is probably the biggest reason a degree makes sense for a top-tier athlete. Even head coaches in high school usually must have a college degree. And I suspect that a lot of front office jobs in the NBA would require at least some solid college-level coursework in things like finance or management, if not degrees.


Clearly the financial problems faced by top tier athletes are serious and widespread. Not sure how much correlation there is between lottery picks going back to school and their long term financial health.



this make sense. there are a lot of reasons i could think of that a person would want to get a degree. i'm talking more about the attitude folks seem to have that getting a degree is inherently virtuous for some reason and that people who do it are more praiseworthy than people who don't. the idea that oden is "wise" for doing it. to me, he would be wise for managing his $20 million well and pursuing his passions generally. i hope he's doing both. the wisdom of getting a degree is closely tied to his interests and not inherently of any value, imo.

I see your point--and I agree that a degree, as such, has no inherent value unless it gets you something that you want/need (like a job, or a feeling of personal accomplishment, or a very happy and proud parent). But I would also argue that getting an education--at a level appropriate to your abilities and talents--is inherently of value, whether it comes with a degree or not. Maybe it's naive of me to think it will make a difference, but I'm guessing that Greg Oden will be better prepared to manage his $20 million well after taking that Econ class this summer than he was before.

An education also broadens your perspective in ways that might help you identify worthy interests to purse and enjoy them more. Even if you can manage your $20 million wisely enough to make it last and avoid the hangers on and importunate relatives who want you to support them in a style to which they would like to become accustomed, you might want to do something interesting or valuable with the remaining 40 or 50 years of your life after you are done playing your sport, and education can help make that happen. Obviously, I'd rather have no job and $20 million than no job and no money, but even with $20 million having no job could get pretty boring after several years if you didn't have some other pretty stimulating things to do with your time.

This gets complicated, of course, by the fact that there are people in college only because they want to play basketball, who otherwise wouldn't think of going to college and/or might not be ready to benefit from college-leve education. If these folks are good enough athletes to make millions, there is probably no particular virtue in going back to get a degree for its own sake, and it's wrong to think less of them for not choosing to do so.

Likewise, if you know enough about managing your money, and whatever else you want to do, without a college degree, more power to you. But I do think there is inherent virtue in always seeking to expand your horizons and learn more things, and in trying to be a productive and useful member or society even if you have enough money to coast. While there are definitely other ways to do that than getting a college degree, and having a degree certainly doesn't guarantee that you will do either of those things, I think when someone like Greg Oden goes back to finish his degree a lot of people see that as representing that attitude--the intention not to coast, but to keep finding new ways to learn, grow and contribute. In the end tt's more about the attitude than about the degree.

MCFinARL
06-28-2012, 12:16 PM
Perhaps there is the broader issue of what a college education can do to enhance anyone's life.

There is more to life than making and managing money. A balanced education can promote a richer, more satisfying existence as well as make multiple careers possible. (I used the term balanced, but some might substitute the term liberal arts.) Of course, I don't view becoming educated as a passive activity. :cool:

Amen to this. As a college instructor I see far too many students who view a degree as a consumer purchase--you buy you education and then you get a stamp of employability (though sadly, these days, not always easy access to a good job). They sign up for class, and the instructor is supposed to pour knowledge into them--tell them the facts they need to know and the ideas they should have about those facts, so they can spit it back out in exams. The ones who benefit the most from college are the students who engage actively--who pursue things that interest them beyond the minimal skimming of the required reading (or the lecture notes, if the reading seems too taxing), who challenge other people's ideas as well as their own preconceived notions, who sign up for courses that interest them even though they are known to be hard, who read, write, and research with real effort to master both skills and subject matter. But my soap box is cracking under the weight of this ponderous speech, so I'm out. :D

timmy c
06-28-2012, 12:54 PM
A short list of a few people who managed without a college degree…
Maya Angelou, Billy Bean, Glenn Beck, Richard Branson, Herbert Brown (Nobel prize-winning chemist), James H. Clark, Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), Grover Cleveland, Walter Cronkite, Michael Dell, Charles Dickens, Walt Disney, George Eastman, Larry Ellison, Bobby Fischer, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Henry Ford, Robert Frost, R. Buckminster Fuller, Bill Gates, John Glenn, Barry Goldwater, Sean Hannity, William Randolph Hearst, Jane Jacobs, Peter Jennings, Steve Jobs, Donna Karan, Ray Kroc, Ralph Lauren, Jack London, Susan Lyne, John Mackey, Michael Moore, Elon Musk, David Neeleman, Jack Nelson, George Orwell, David Plouffe, Wolfgang Puck, Rachael Ray, John D. Rockefeller Sr., Theodore Roosevelt, Karl Rove, William Safire, Vidal Sassoon, Steven Spielberg, Ted Turner, Theodore Waitt, Alexander Wang, Sidney Weinberg, Frank Lloyd Wright, Jerry Yang, Mark Zuckerberg and even J.B Fuqua!

The point of this list isn’t to disparage a college education, but to point out that the road to success doesn’t have to travel down the narrow path of college graduation. Every individual needs to access their own situation and take the path that fits them best. Greg Oden, and any other athlete that leaves college, should be respected for whatever decision they make. In the end, they are the ones that have the most to gain/lose.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2012, 01:03 PM
A short list of a few people who managed without a college degree…
Maya Angelou, Billy Bean, Glenn Beck, Richard Branson, Herbert Brown (Nobel prize-winning chemist), James H. Clark, Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), Grover Cleveland, Walter Cronkite, Michael Dell, Charles Dickens, Walt Disney, George Eastman, Larry Ellison, Bobby Fischer, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Henry Ford, Robert Frost, R. Buckminster Fuller, Bill Gates, John Glenn, Barry Goldwater, Sean Hannity, William Randolph Hearst, Jane Jacobs, Peter Jennings, Steve Jobs, Donna Karan, Ray Kroc, Ralph Lauren, Jack London, Susan Lyne, John Mackey, Michael Moore, Elon Musk, David Neeleman, Jack Nelson, George Orwell, David Plouffe, Wolfgang Puck, Rachael Ray, John D. Rockefeller Sr., Theodore Roosevelt, Karl Rove, William Safire, Vidal Sassoon, Steven Spielberg, Ted Turner, Theodore Waitt, Alexander Wang, Sidney Weinberg, Frank Lloyd Wright, Jerry Yang, Mark Zuckerberg and even J.B Fuqua!

The point of this list isn’t to disparage a college education, but to point out that the road to success doesn’t have to travel down the narrow path of college graduation. Every individual needs to access their own situation and take the path that fits them best. Greg Oden, and any other athlete that leaves college, should be respected for whatever decision they make. In the end, they are the ones that have the most to gain/lose.

Virtually everyone that you listed above is in a profession that lasts longer than 10-15 years and can lead to sustainable employment. Also, as you mentioned, these are exceptions, not the rules.

I firmly believe in an education, especially a higher education, but I think that there isn't a correlation between college and managing your money better. An Econ class will tell you absolutely nothing about how to manage your money. However, I believe that if you want to go back to college, you're clearly smart enough to not blow your millions on jewelry, gambling, and anything else that Iverson and Walker spent their fortunes on. Re-enrolling in college says to me "Wow. I now know you're smart enough to try to sustain your success."

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-28-2012, 01:06 PM
Amen to this. As a college instructor I see far too many students who view a degree as a consumer purchase--you buy you education and then you get a stamp of employability (though sadly, these days, not always easy access to a good job). They sign up for class, and the instructor is supposed to pour knowledge into them--tell them the facts they need to know and the ideas they should have about those facts, so they can spit it back out in exams. The ones who benefit the most from college are the students who engage actively--who pursue things that interest them beyond the minimal skimming of the required reading (or the lecture notes, if the reading seems too taxing), who challenge other people's ideas as well as their own preconceived notions, who sign up for courses that interest them even though they are known to be hard, who read, write, and research with real effort to master both skills and subject matter. But my soap box is cracking under the weight of this ponderous speech, so I'm out. :D
I can't let your comments go by without making some additional comments. I admit that what I observed during 30 years in the public schools may be seen by some as prejudicial. I'd add my experiences in college to the basis of my comments.

Students and parents who champion the right to an education miss the mark if what they do is simply exist in class or occupy themselves with anything but the class.

Choosing to open one's mind to areas of unfamiliar areas of study and experience can produce priceless results and lifelong benefits.

Interacting with people the way one can in a class or lab cannot be replaced by any sort of technology. Today's technology can create many new possibilities for learning and mental stimulation, but will never replace the inherent value of a face to face interaction. In fact, the overuse of technology changes how the brain functions in ways that aren't necessarily healthy or helpful.

As time passes and we develop as people, human interaction takes on greater and greater importance in the quality of life. This may be an insight that develops later in life and go unrecognized by young adults. Laying the groundwork for a magnificent, satisfying second adulthood (see Gail Sheehy's work on this subject) begins during our time in adolescence and young adulthood when we're making those choices about our educations.

freshmanjs
06-28-2012, 01:25 PM
However, I believe that if you want to go back to college, you're clearly smart enough to not blow your millions on jewelry, gambling, and anything else that Iverson and Walker spent their fortunes on. Re-enrolling in college says to me "Wow. I now know you're smart enough to try to sustain your success."

While Iverson and Walker did not graduate from college, there are examples of bankrupt athletes who did. So i don't buy the assertion that re-enrolling in college proves someone is smart enough to avoid that fate. Bankrupt graduates (off the top of my head) include Mark Brunell, Marion Jones, and Scottie Pippen. You could put Bob Hurley and Christian Laettner on that list too.

sagegrouse
06-28-2012, 04:34 PM
........................I firmly believe in an education, especially a higher education, but I think that there isn't a correlation between college and managing your money better. An Econ class will tell you absolutely nothing about how to manage your money. However, I believe that if you want to go back to college, you're clearly smart enough to not blow your millions on jewelry, gambling, and anything else that Iverson and Walker spent their fortunes on. Re-enrolling in college says to me "Wow. I now know you're smart enough to try to sustain your success."

I think a large part of a good college education is what you learn about life's lessons from your profs, coaches (in the case of athletes), and -- especially -- your fellow students. Among other reasons, this is why I believe students should live on campus rather than at home. I believe there will be a correlation between college degrees and bankruptcy among professional athletes. I guess we need to find the data to test the two hypotheses.

sagegrouse
'On-line education? Uh,... I don't think that works very well for undergrads, but I am lacking any direct or indirect personal experience'

phaedrus
06-28-2012, 04:44 PM
You could put Bob Hurley and Christian Laettner on that list too.

Bankruptcy of one's business is an entirely different universe than personal bankruptcy.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2012, 04:48 PM
I think a large part of a good college education is what you learn about life's lessons from your profs, coaches (in the case of athletes), and -- especially -- your fellow students. Among other reasons, this is why I believe students should live on campus rather than at home. I believe there will be a correlation between college degrees and bankruptcy among professional athletes. I guess we need to find the data to test the two hypotheses.

sagegrouse
'On-line education? Uh,... I don't think that works very well for undergrads, but I am lacking any direct or indirect personal experience'

I could not agree more, and this is the philosophy of the US educational system (I was/am an international student and firmly believe this). That said, if an athlete comes back to college, there is no way he's living on campus. He may interact with students and professors, but many of these players have their own network (their college team) and potential families. But I give them so much credit but wanting to come back.

Also, regarding your point about college degrees and bankruptcy, there are so many factors in play with this. One of them is that the players with the most hype (the Iversons, Beasleys, etc of the world) receive so much cash all at once and frequently blow through it. If you're a graduate coming out of college (primarily basketball, not football), but probably have more hype attached to you and probably will be drafted higher. I too believe there is an R-squared, but it is probably really low and the error is huge. I'd be interested to see this data if anyone has it...

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2012, 04:49 PM
Bankruptcy of one's business is an entirely different universe than personal bankruptcy.

But I would argue a million times over that going back to college would help you significantly more with the former and not the latter.

freshmanjs
06-28-2012, 04:50 PM
Bankruptcy of one's business is an entirely different universe than personal bankruptcy.

the high profile athlete financial ruin stories come in various flavors - business failures, extravagant over spending, drug problems, gambling problems. college graduates experience all of these problems. that is the only point i'm making. the previous comment that someone going to college proves they are smart enough to avoid financial problems is (IMHO) totally absurd.

Bojangles4Eva
06-28-2012, 05:34 PM
Why would anyone ever say that furthering your education is a poor decision? I believe this was the same logic used in the Dark Ages, and we all know how that worked out. How did we come out of that again, it was that thing that starts with an 'R'.....Oh yea, the Renaissance, and what did that place value on again?

I know that was a very sarcastic response, and morphed a very specific discussion about athlete’s education into a general social commentary, but I think it’s very relevant to the misguided worth many college athletes (basketball in particular) are placing on their education. Yes, they are put in a financial situation that makes a college education seem irrelevant on a scale of dollars and cents, but that is not the point of an education. It’s about the improvement of the individual, the cultivation of the mind, and to use the knowledge they gained (which goes beyond classrooms or textbooks) to better themselves, and in turn pass that knowledge to future generations.

As a side note, I am currently writing my dissertation, and this tirade of a response is just my way of trying to justify the years of my life “wasted” getting a doctorate when I could have just stayed in the workforce and made much more money.

freshmanjs
06-28-2012, 05:43 PM
Why would anyone ever say that furthering your education is a poor decision? I believe this was the same logic used in the Dark Ages, and we all know how that worked out. How did we come out of that again, it was that thing that starts with an 'R'.....Oh yea, the Renaissance, and what did that place value on again?



I haven't seen anyone on this board put forward the view that furthering your education is a poor decision. Outside of this board, Peter Thiel has been one very vocal critic of our higher education system and has made a flavor of that argument - even paying people to skip college. Interesting stuff.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/