Thunder should trade for Kyrie

[G man]

I was at a coffee shop working on some homework thinking about the finals when it hit me. A trade that would benefit all parties and help a former Devil in the process. Find a way to trade Russell Westbrook for Kyrie. I know that at this point in their careers Kyire is not the scorer that Westbrook is, but Kyrie runs a team better and has a higher BBall IQ. Kyrie would bring more of the point guard mentality to the Thunder. For Westbrook and the Cavs it would give them a guy who can be the leading scorer that he wants to be. This would allow Durant to get more shots, and those shots would probably be better looks since he would be playing with a true point guard. Plus lets not forget that Kyrie can get his (Uncle Drew: "I get buckets"). Late in the game it would take the ball out of the hands of Harden who really struggled through the finals (exception game 5). Cleveland would have to give up something else talent wise say a couple of 2nd round picks. Even the salaries match up really well with Kyrie making $5,144,280, and Westbrook bringing in $5,082,416. I don't know call me crazy, but I think this would benefit everyone involved.

Westbrook
PPG APG RPG PER
2011-12 23.6 5.5 4.6 23.00

Kyrie
PPG APG RPG PER
18.5 5.4 3.7 21.49


P.S.

Not sure if anyone else has thought of this and posted it elsewhere, but I sure hope I am the first to think of this.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I was at a coffee shop working on some homework thinking about the finals when it hit me. A trade that would benefit all parties and help a former Devil in the process. Find a way to trade Russell Westbrook for Kyrie. I know that at this point in their careers Kyire is not the scorer that Westbrook is, but Kyrie runs a team better and has a higher BBall IQ. Kyrie would bring more of the point guard mentality to the Thunder. For Westbrook and the Cavs it would give them a guy who can be the leading scorer that he wants to be. This would allow Durant to get more shots, and those shots would probably be better looks since he would be playing with a true point guard. Plus lets not forget that Kyrie can get his (Uncle Drew: "I get buckets"). Late in the game it would take the ball out of the hands of Harden who really struggled through the finals (exception game 5). Cleveland would have to give up something else talent wise say a couple of 2nd round picks. Even the salaries match up really well with Kyrie making $5,144,280, and Westbrook bringing in $5,082,416. I don't know call me crazy, but I think this would benefit everyone involved.

Westbrook
PPG APG RPG PER
2011-12 23.6 5.5 4.6 23.00

Kyrie
PPG APG RPG PER
18.5 5.4 3.7 21.49


P.S.

Not sure if anyone else has thought of this and posted it elsewhere, but I sure hope I am the first to think of this.



I don't doubt that it would benefit Kyrie or Russell or the teams for that matter, but I don't think the Cavs would trade Kyrie at this point, especially for a guy that is going to be demanding more $$ pretty soon here. The Cavs have Kyrie locked in to his rookie contract and the production you are getting and what you are going to continue getting at that price, you would be absolutely nuts to trade that. Just my opinion

[El_Diablo]

No, Westbrook signed a 5-year contract extension back in January (worth about $80m, or $16m per year). The Cavs have another few years of premium value from Kyrie (since he's tied to his rookie contract); there's no reason to trade him for Westbrook.

[G man]

No, Westbrook signed a contract extension back in January for 5 years (about $80m total).

Yeah I was going to say this as well. The only argument to really be made is who has the most upside? Even though I personally think Westbrook is better at this point. It might be a situation of addition by subtraction for the thunder. I know the thunder play down that there is any schism between Westbrook and the rest of his team, but it appears the situation could be better.

[El_Diablo]

It might be a situation of addition by subtraction for the thunder.

On the flip side, couldn't it be subtraction by addition for the Cavs? I just don't see why they would trade away the popular face of their franchise in order to pay an extra $10m per year for someone who is slightly better overall. Don't get me wrong; I think several teams would jump at the chance to upgrade their PG to Westbrook. I just don't think Cleveland would at this point.

[nmduke2001]

Since we’re playing fantasy trade here, I would propose the following:
Westbrook and Perkins to Minny for Love and Rubio.

Minny gets a guy that could be the star of a team much in the same way that Derrick Rose leads Chicago. Westbrook would thrive in that role and would eventually be an MVP candidate. In addition, they get a young 7-footer that has proven he can be a starter in the league.

OKC gets a pass first point guard that would get Durant the ball. They also get a big man that loves (no pun intended) to rebound and can score without having a play run for him.

I know the contracts don’t add up, but I think it would benefit both teams and all of the players.

[G man]

Since we’re playing fantasy trade here, I would propose the following:
Westbrook and Perkins to Minny for Love and Rubio.

Minny gets a guy that could be the star of a team much in the same way that Derrick Rose leads Chicago. Westbrook would thrive in that role and would eventually be an MVP candidate. In addition, they get a young 7-footer that has proven he can be a starter in the league.

OKC gets a pass first point guard that would get Durant the ball. They also get a big man that loves (no pun intended) to rebound and can score without having a play run for him.

I know the contracts don’t add up, but I think it would benefit both teams and all of the players.

Only problem with this that Love is a top 10 guy in the league borderline top 5. Look at his stats they are fantastic. Really world basketball I would not trade Love for Westbrook straight up. Not to mention I think Rubio is better than Perkins as well (granted vastly different positions).

[CDu]

Yeah, both of these trade proposals are very weighted toward the Thunder. Westbrook is better right now than Irving, but he's about to be much more expensive. And Love+Rubio is much better than Perkins+Westbrook. I don't think the T-Wolves or Cavs would make those trades.

I also don't think there's a huge disconnect between Westbrook and Durant. Both are young and both are learning how to play together. But both are locked up for several more years and the combination is good enough to be a championship for years to come. I'm not sure I see a need to split them up.

[Greg_Newton]

Then there's also the assumption that the Thunder have any intention or desire to deal Westbrook. They were far and away the best team in the playoffs until game 2 of the Finals this year, and Westbrook was far and away their best player after that. This was achieved without any core players older than 23. They're an incredibly close bunch who have developed great chemistry - especially KD and Westbrook - which will undoubtedly make another jump after this year's experience.

I've seen so many blockbuster trade/FA ideas for both the Heat and Thunder recently, and it makes no sense to me. From where I'm sitting, the business models for both seem to be rolling along just fine. Who would even be the distant third franchise right now, in terms of being a contender going forward? 37 year-old Duncan and the Spurs? 34 year-old Kobe and the (likely Pau-less) Lakers? The over-the-hill and likely-to-be-blown-up Mavericks or Celtics?
The Rose-less bulls, about whom there was just a reasonable discussion about whether their best option would be to liquidate their roster and tank for a lottery pick?

Really, the closest thing to those two franchises is probably a Thunder-lite like the Grizzlies or the Pacers. And if I'm OKC or Miami, I'm not messing with my juggernaut because I'm afraid of a team like that.

[CDu]

Really, the closest thing to those two franchises is probably a Thunder-lite like the Grizzlies or the Pacers. And if I'm OKC or Miami, I'm not messing with my juggernaut because I'm afraid of a team like that.

You've overlooked the Bulls here. Depending upon the recovery of Derrick Rose and on how the Bulls handle the transition from Deng/Boozer to the next set of forwards, I think the Bulls are in a much better position moving forward than the Pacers or Grizzlies. Neither of those two teams have the pieces to threaten the Heat or Thunder. The Bulls (with a healthy Rose, Noah, another star, and a solid supporting cast) can.

[cptnflash]

There is no way the Cavs are trading Kyrie. Not for Westbrook, not for anybody.

[CDu]

You've overlooked the Bulls here. Depending upon the recovery of Derrick Rose and on how the Bulls handle the transition from Deng/Boozer to the next set of forwards, I think the Bulls are in a much better position moving forward than the Pacers or Grizzlies. Neither of those two teams have the pieces to threaten the Heat or Thunder. The Bulls (with a healthy Rose, Noah, another star, and a solid supporting cast) can.

And if I had to take another team to add to the mix, I'd take the Clippers over the Grizzlies or Pacers. I also might take the T-Wolves (with Love, Rubio, and Pekovic) over the Pacers and Grizzlies too. Each of those teams have the star talent to be a better threat than the Pacers or Grizzlies, in my opinion.

[Greg_Newton]

Neither of those two teams have the pieces to threaten the Heat or Thunder. The Bulls (with a healthy Rose, Noah, another star, and a solid supporting cast) can.

There's a fair amount that needs to happen for this to come to pass though, no? I know that this has been thoroughly discussed in another thread, but none of those things are really guaranteed with the severity of Rose's injury, Boozer's decline, and the idea of trading Deng being kicked around.

Same goes for Minnesota; they've got a couple of nice pieces, sure, but what have they proven? They finished last in their division at 26-40 this year.

The Clippers were the other team I would have put in there if I had continued my rant, but I'm not really sold on them being a contender with Vinny Del Negro at the helm, zero halfcourt offense, and only two double-digit scorers. Good team, fun to watch? Sure. Anywhere near the Thunder or the Heat's level? No way.

I'd list them after the Pacers and Grizzlies only because the Grizzlies already have three proven stars and great surrounding pieces (along with a shot to bring in Nash) while the Pacers have such depth of young talent with the potential to develop into stars (George, Hibbert, Collison, etc.). But my main point is that I don't think any team is close to the Heat or Thunder right now, so why would they go shaking things up?

[slower]

But my main point is that I don't think any team is close to the Heat or Thunder right now, so why would they go shaking things up?

Agreed. It's not a stretch to think that the Heat-Thunder could be the new Celtics-Lakers of the Magic-Bird era.

[Starter]

I love Kyrie, but I'm not convinced the Thunder would do this either. Westbrook has the potential to be a top 5 guard in the league, and soon. He might be there already. And I agree with those who said that the Cavs are very happy with Kyrie. I think this is a good example of two teams who have what they need.

As for challenging the Heat and Thunder, I think they have a pretty decent step up on any other team out there. The only team I can think of close enough to either one of their levels is the Spurs, and they're getting a year older. I like the Pacers too, but I have to see that again from them.

[Native]

Was with a group of friends tonight and the crazy idea came up to trade Westbrook for Rondo. With the Celtics on the verge of disbanding the Boston Three Party it sounded like a good idea at the time.

[Starter]

Was with a group of friends tonight and the crazy idea came up to trade Westbrook for Rondo. With the Celtics on the verge of disbanding the Boston Three Party it sounded like a good idea at the time.

Now we're talking.

[moonpie23]

i don't like westbrook.....not sure why....but i DEFINITELY don't like rondo.......it's hard to make a case for the thunder trading someone as talented as he is.....i'd say it's just a matter of working out how he and durant co-exist....

spolestra figured it out with wade and lebron.....

[Indoor66]

i don't like westbrook.....not sure why....but i DEFINITELY don't like rondo.......it's hard to make a case for the thunder trading someone as talented as he is.....i'd say it's just a matter of working out how he and durant co-exist....

spolestra figured it out with wade and lebron.....


But Spolestra had Riley in the wings whispering to him.

[CDu]

There's a fair amount that needs to happen for this to come to pass though, no? I know that this has been thoroughly discussed in another thread, but none of those things are really guaranteed with the severity of Rose's injury, Boozer's decline, and the idea of trading Deng being kicked around.

Depends on your time frame. The Bulls already have 3 of the 4 things in place (Rose, Noah, the strong supporting cast). If they trade Deng and amnesty Boozer, they'd be adding at least one if not two lottery picks and lots of cap space to acquire more depth and a star. So it's not that much that needs to happen really. They probably are done for next year, but moving beyond that they're in very good shape. The only question is Rose's knee, but medicine has advanced to the point that ACLs aren't the career-changers they used to be. No reason to assume he won't come back just as strong.

So it just depends on your time frame. If you're talking about next season, then I agree that the Bulls aren't much of a threat. But 2013 and beyond? I'd definitely take them over the Pacers and Grizzlies. Those teams just have a ceiling that the Bulls don't have. Remember - they might well have won the title this year had it not been for Rose's injury.


Same goes for Minnesota; they've got a couple of nice pieces, sure, but what have they proven? They finished last in their division at 26-40 this year.

They were 20-17 in games played by both Rubio (a rookie) and Love. They were 6-23 in games in which one (or both) of those guys wasn't playing. So that 26-40 record is very much a function of injuries as it was the status of the team. Add the #18 pick and their cap space and you have team in a much better position than the Grizzlies or Pacers moving forward, in my opinion.


The Clippers were the other team I would have put in there if I had continued my rant, but I'm not really sold on them being a contender with Vinny Del Negro at the helm, zero halfcourt offense, and only two double-digit scorers. Good team, fun to watch? Sure. Anywhere near the Thunder or the Heat's level? No way.

Are they at their level? No. But they're closer (in my opinion) than the Pacers and Grizzlies.


I'd list them after the Pacers and Grizzlies only because the Grizzlies already have three proven stars and great surrounding pieces (along with a shot to bring in Nash) while the Pacers have such depth of young talent with the potential to develop into stars (George, Hibbert, Collison, etc.). But my main point is that I don't think any team is close to the Heat or Thunder right now, so why would they go shaking things up?

First, I don't see any of those Pacers players developing into stars. Strong complementary players? Sure. But not stars. And their lack of star power caps their ceiling I think.

And the Grizzlies have one proven (but aging) star in Jefferson, one semi-proven star in Gay, and 2 strong complementary players in Gasol and Conley. Mayo may or may not get retained for next year, but he's a free agent after that. And the team would have to go into the luxury tax to retain him or Tony Allen after next year. They are, in my opinion, locked into the middle of the West, with almost no window to move up.

The Clippers had basically the same record as the Grizzlies, but they have more cap space and this was their first year with Paul and Griffin paired. Another year of Griffin's development, and I think they're the second-best team in the West with the ability to threaten the Thunder with the right move or two. They have the prerequisite pair of superstars. As a nice starting point.

That said, I completely agree that the Thunder and Heat don't need to make any major changes. They're in the driver's seat for at least the next year or two. No reason to screw that up.

[Starter]

i don't like westbrook.....not sure why....but i DEFINITELY don't like rondo.......it's hard to make a case for the thunder trading someone as talented as he is.....i'd say it's just a matter of working out how he and durant co-exist....

spolestra figured it out with wade and lebron.....

I don't think Spoelstra figured out jack for LeBron and Wade. I think LeBron and Wade figured it out for themselves. Spoelstra's going to teach those two alpha dogs how to coexist? It's just a good thing for him they stopped screaming at him and bumping him, and started playing driven, championship ball. Honestly, what probably did it is that Wade's game slipped enough for LeBron to simply work his magic without worrying about having to defer to "Batman." :rolleyes:

I like both Westbrook and Rondo and I'd build my team around either one of them. I'd probably prefer Rondo based on his more complete, controlled game. That proposed Boston-OKC trade would work for either team in terms of giving Boston a post-KG/Ray identity, and giving the Thunder a point guard to settle down their offense and make sure Durant gets his. But again, I'd take either of them.

[Des Esseintes]

I like both Westbrook and Rondo and I'd build my team around either one of them. I'd probably prefer Rondo based on his more complete, controlled game. That proposed Boston-OKC trade would work for either team in terms of giving Boston a post-KG/Ray identity, and giving the Thunder a point guard to settle down their offense and make sure Durant gets his. But again, I'd take either of them.

Rondo is three years older, and Westbrook is already the better player. I just don't think you build a team around Rondo. He's 26, and has yet to have a season in which he averaged a PER over 20. His best season he averaged 19.1, while Westbrook has averaged 19.8 for his career. Which we can only expect to increase in coming years. In fact, Rondo's best season cannot beat the career averages of any elite point guard: Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Deron Williams or Derrick Rose. Granted that PER is only one statistic, albeit an all-inclusive one, but I nonetheless think the gap is telling. (People might respond by pointing to defense, but Boston's schemes and Kevin Garnett have a way of burnishing everyone's credentials on that end. Ray Allen is now viewed as a solid defender, and that... was not always the case.)

There is also the team-specific issue of OKC already having a bunch of guys that can be ignored on offense. Can the spacing survive putting one more non-shooter on the court, even if his ball distribution is superior?

[Starter]

Rondo is three years older, and Westbrook is already the better player. I just don't think you build a team around Rondo. He's 26, and has yet to have a season in which he averaged a PER over 20. His best season he averaged 19.1, while Westbrook has averaged 19.8 for his career. Which we can only expect to increase in coming years. In fact, Rondo's best season cannot beat the career averages of any elite point guard: Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Deron Williams or Derrick Rose. Granted that PER is only one statistic, albeit an all-inclusive one, but I nonetheless think the gap is telling. (People might respond by pointing to defense, but Boston's schemes and Kevin Garnett have a way of burnishing everyone's credentials on that end. Ray Allen is now viewed as a solid defender, and that... was not always the case.)

There is also the team-specific issue of OKC already having a bunch of guys that can be ignored on offense. Can the spacing survive putting one more non-shooter on the court, even if his ball distribution is superior?

Rondo may be three years older, but it's not like he's ancient; he's still just 26 and just entering his prime. We're talking about a team that is in position to win right now. You can absolutely argue Rondo would be better than Westbrook for a Thunder team on the cusp without claiming that he's more efficient in terms of Hollinger statistics. For the second straight postseason, the Thunder ran no semblance of an organized offense, and it cost them. Some of that is the coach, but if they had Rondo, that would probably go a long way toward helping that immediately, while not lowering their level of play at point guard precipitously, or perhaps even at all. (And I get what you're saying about Garnett's transformative defensive influence, but I don't think that should take away that Rondo is a very good defender.) I also think you can ignore Rondo on offense at your own peril, and he'd probably serve to make a lot of those offensive non-factors on OKC a little better than they are right now.

Note that it's all conjecture. This trade ain't happening, I'm a fan of Westbrook and the Thunder will go far with him -- again. Just some fantasy ballin'.

[Des Esseintes]

Rondo may be three years older, but it's not like he's ancient; he's still just 26 and just entering his prime. We're talking about a team that is in position to win right now. You can absolutely argue Rondo would be better than Westbrook for a Thunder team on the cusp without claiming that he's more efficient in terms of Hollinger statistics. For the second straight postseason, the Thunder ran no semblance of an organized offense, and it cost them. Some of that is the coach, but if they had Rondo, that would probably go a long way toward helping that immediately, while not lowering their level of play at point guard precipitously, or perhaps even at all. (And I get what you're saying about Garnett's transformative defensive influence, but I don't think that should take away that Rondo is a very good defender.) I also think you can ignore Rondo on offense at your own peril, and he'd probably serve to make a lot of those offensive non-factors on OKC a little better than they are right now.

Note that it's all conjecture. This trade ain't happening, I'm a fan of Westbrook and the Thunder will go far with him -- again. Just some fantasy ballin'.

No, of course, 26 isn't ancient. I threw in the age difference because it points to Westbrook's potential to get even better, perhaps top-5-overall-player good. No guarantee there, but whereas Rondo is not likely to blossom significantly further--in fact, his performance has experienced an odd, slight slide over the past two seasons--Westbrook might be enough better as soon as next season that a comparison of the two players is no longer appropriate.

Regarding a structured offense, I don't know. You could argue that Rondo would bring better organization to the court, but you could also argue that subtracting Westbrook's kineticism would lead to stagnancy. I'm not a keen enough observer to be able to say. Similarly, I'm unsure whether Doc's complex sets help to make Rondo look cerebral or whether the complex sets are only possible because Doc has someone such as Rondo capable of running them. His turnovers are a continuing problem, though.

All that said, your points are well taken, and the defensive upgrade alone might have been enough to swing the 2012 series.

[Starter]

No, of course, 26 isn't ancient. I threw in the age difference because it points to Westbrook's potential to get even better, perhaps top-5-overall-player good. No guarantee there, but whereas Rondo is not likely to blossom significantly further--in fact, his performance has experienced an odd, slight slide over the past two seasons--Westbrook might be enough better as soon as next season that a comparison of the two players is no longer appropriate.

Regarding a structured offense, I don't know. You could argue that Rondo would bring better organization to the court, but you could also argue that subtracting Westbrook's kineticism would lead to stagnancy. I'm not a keen enough observer to be able to say. Similarly, I'm unsure whether Doc's complex sets help to make Rondo look cerebral or whether the complex sets are only possible because Doc has someone such as Rondo capable of running them. His turnovers are a continuing problem, though.

All that said, your points are well taken, and the defensive upgrade alone might have been enough to swing the 2012 series.

These are all very good points. There's no question Doc's been fantastic for Rondo's development and career, and it'd be an enormous risk to trade Westbrook for ANYONE given how good he might end up becoming. When they get completely on the same page, Westbrook and Durant, not necessarily in that order, can rule the league for years to come, especially as Wade continues to break down and decline.

Like I said, it ain't happening regardless. But you make a very convincing case for not considering this trade if you're OKC, if it were on the table.

[Gthoma2a]

Forget the Thunder. I dream that something crazy happens and the Lakers pick up Kyrie (we are the ones who are desperate for a good point guard).

[G man]

Forget the Thunder. I dream that something crazy happens and the Lakers pick up Kyrie (we are the ones who are desperate for a good point guard).

I think I just threw up in my mouth. JK

[Atlanta Duke]

The Thunder need to take a look at signing this "Uncle Drew" fella as a free agent :)


The breakout star of this year’s N.B.A. finals was not a member of the Miami Heat or the Oklahoma City Thunder, but instead a man appearing to be well into his 70s who had supernatural basketball gifts and referred to himself simply as Uncle Drew

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/kyrie-irving-as-uncle-drew/

[moonpie23]

wow....that's awesome for KI.....way to go, dukie...