Duke's "Dream Team"

[JasonEvans]

Thanks to a Adam Rowe tweet, I just read this column (http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2012/06/19/dukes-dream-team/) where Chad Lykins discusses his Duke "Dream Team" of the K era. He picks 12 players.


PF – Elton Brand
PF – Danny Ferry
C – Christian Laettner
PF – Shelden Williams
SF – Shane Battier
SF – Grant Hill
SF – Kyle Singler
G – Johnny Dawkins
G – Bobby Hurley
G – J.J. Redick
G – Jon Scheyer
G – Jay Williams

He said 8 were no brainers: Ferry, Laettner, Battier, Hill, Dawkins, Hurley, Redick, and JWill. I have to agree with that list. Those 8 do stand out above the rest. He considered 5 guys for the final 4 spots and Tommy Amaker was the "bubble boy" with Scheyer getting the 12th spot on the team.

Is it just me or does Kyle Singler stick out like a sore thumb on this list as someone who does not belong? Anyone agree with me that they would take Mark Alarie ahead of Singler? Frankly, I think Nolan Smith should be on it ahead of Scheyer too.

-Jason "this makes for a decent discussion, no?" Evans

[luvdahops]

Thanks to a Adam Rowe tweet, I just read this column (http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2012/06/19/dukes-dream-team/) where Chad Lykins discusses his Duke "Dream Team" of the K era. He picks 12 players.



He said 8 were no brainers: Ferry, Laettner, Battier, Hill, Dawkins, Hurley, Redick, and JWill. I have to agree with that list. Those 8 do stand out above the rest. He considered 5 guys for the final 4 spots and Tommy Amaker was the "bubble boy" with Scheyer getting the 12th spot on the team.

Is it just me or does Kyle Singler stick out like a sore thumb on this list as someone who does not belong? Anyone agree with me that they would take Mark Alarie ahead of Singler? Frankly, I think Nolan Smith should be on it ahead of Scheyer too.

-Jason "this makes for a decent discussion, no?" Evans

I'd put Alarie on the team but swap out Shelden for him. Also, Shane very rarely played SF at Duke. He would be part of my 5-man post rotation instead - Laettner, Brand, Ferry, Alarie and Battier. Lots of great combos there.

I would also go with Nolan over Scheyer, and probably take a defensive ace such as Carrawell or Billy King over Singler for the final spot.

[CDu]

Thanks to a Adam Rowe tweet, I just read this column (http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2012/06/19/dukes-dream-team/) where Chad Lykins discusses his Duke "Dream Team" of the K era. He picks 12 players.



He said 8 were no brainers: Ferry, Laettner, Battier, Hill, Dawkins, Hurley, Redick, and JWill. I have to agree with that list. Those 8 do stand out above the rest. He considered 5 guys for the final 4 spots and Tommy Amaker was the "bubble boy" with Scheyer getting the 12th spot on the team.

Is it just me or does Kyle Singler stick out like a sore thumb on this list as someone who does not belong? Anyone agree with me that they would take Mark Alarie ahead of Singler? Frankly, I think Nolan Smith should be on it ahead of Scheyer too.

-Jason "this makes for a decent discussion, no?" Evans

Well, other than the usual quibble about positions (Brand and Shelden played C, Battier played PF). One could argue for Smith over Scheyer (based on his having 2 quiet and 2really good years compared to Scheyer's one really good year and 3 decent years). It's hard to argue Alarie over Singler considering Singler averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and steals per game than Alarie, and he was part of a National Championship team (so he wins out on both the individual and team argument). But Alarie certainly deserves to be in the discussion. But Singler wound up with ~2,400 points and 1,000 rebounds. That's really impressive.

[pfrduke]

I'd put Alarie on the team but swap out Shelden for him. Also, Shane very rarely played SF at Duke. He would be part of my 5-man post rotation instead - Laettner, Brand, Ferry, Alarie and Battier. Lots of great combos there.

I would also go with Nolan over Scheyer, and probably take a defensive ace such as Carrawell or Billy King over Singler for the final spot.

A more interesting question may be whether you put Kyrie, Luol, or Maggette on the list. If the consideration for the list is basketball-only (and not tenure/achievements while in college) it would be hard for me to take Scheyer over Kyrie or Singler over Deng. And I think Scheyer and Singler are both great players.

[JasonEvans]

A more interesting question may be whether you put Kyrie, Luol, or Maggette on the list. If the consideration for the list is basketball-only (and not tenure/achievements while in college) it would be hard for me to take Scheyer over Kyrie or Singler over Deng. And I think Scheyer and Singler are both great players.

Argh! I feel terrible that I forgot about Kyrie. He absolutely belongs in this conversation. Deng, not as much. Maggette, not at all.

Kyrie, JWill, Hurley, Dawkins, JJ as your guards... that's sick!

-Jason "see, I knew this would be fun" Evans

[pfrduke]

Argh! I feel terrible that I forgot about Kyrie. He absolutely belongs in this conversation. Deng, not as much. Maggette, not at all.

Kyrie, JWill, Hurley, Dawkins, JJ as your guards... that's sick!

-Jason "see, I knew this would be fun" Evans

Agree with Maggette not at all. Choosing between Deng, Singler, and Alarie would be, I think, very difficult.

[jimsumner]

It's a little unfair to Alarie to compare him to Singler just on per-game stats. Give Alarie a 35-second shot clock and a 3-point shot for four seasons and those numbers are going to change.

Plus, Alarie was a superb defender. Forced to choose, I would narrowly opt for Alarie over Singler, while trying to figure out a way to keep both.

And should we consider Gene Banks? Only one year under K but a pretty darn good one.

[Bojangles4Eva]

Deng, not as much.

It's hard to think about our one-and-done players in this conversation, but imagine how legendary Deng would have been if he stayed 3-4 years. I actually just re-watched the UNC v. Duke game in Cameron '04 about a week ago on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arVfbLM8qq8) and he was a stud in that game. I forgot how smooth he was in college. He was also a key feature in a final four team as a freshman, and I think he warrants serious discussion for a spot as a backup SF. I don't think he was as clearly dominant as Kyrie, but in terms of the short-timers I thought he was awesome, and definitely showed all-America potential should he have stayed longer.

[CDu]

Argh! I feel terrible that I forgot about Kyrie. He absolutely belongs in this conversation. Deng, not as much. Maggette, not at all.

Kyrie, JWill, Hurley, Dawkins, JJ as your guards... that's sick!

-Jason "see, I knew this would be fun" Evans

Gotta disagree on your assessment of Deng. 15ppg and 7rpg on a Final Four team (that was a minute away from being the heavy championship favorite). That has to be as much in the discussion as Irving and his 11 games of 17.5ppg, 4apg, 3rpg.

[Zeb]

(Kyrie) absolutely belongs in this conversation. Deng, not as much.

What ?!?! You could justify excluding Deng and including Singler because Singler obviously accomplished a lot more at Duke. But Deng accomplished a lot more than Kyrie, and you include Kyrie. This makes no sense unless... do you believe Singler is a better player than Deng?

Deng came in as a highly ranked recruit and played one year, averaging 15 pts, 7 rebounds on a team that went to the final four. Deng went seventh in the draft and made the all-rookie team. Freshman year, Kyle averaged 13pts, 6 rebounds on a team that lost in the second round. Had he gone pro after one year, I doubt he was a lottery pick. I also would point to his performance in Spain as an indication that he will not boast the same kind of NBA career as Deng.

For a Duke dream team, Deng provides better defense and better interior scoring. You could argue Singler is a better jump shooter, but on a team with J-Will, Redick, Battier, Laettner, and Dawkins, we don't need more jump shooters.

[jv001]

And just think he left off Gene Banks, Tommy Amaker, Mike Dunleavy and Carlos Boozer. Just shows how blessed we are as Duke fans. Many, many stars to watch over the years. GoDuke!

[Mike Corey]

First, a quibble: Scheyer had four excellent seasons in Durham. He averaged double figures in points every season. And his senior year was one of the most efficient seasons in, well, I don't know, but Luke Winn of SI just described it very generously.

Mr. Lykins seems to have taken NBA accolades into (some) account, though his four primary criteria were as follows: "Personal Achievements, Importance To Their Team, All-Time Stats and Rankings, Personal Opinion." I would add more weight to post-Duke achievements.

Limiting the list to the K era:

The locks for me would be the NPOYs (Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Brand, Battier, Williams, Redick).

Then I'd add Hill, who should have been the NPOY, and Hurley, who set the assists mark.

That leaves three spots for a murderer's row of talent: Irving, Deng, Boozer, Shelden Williams, Dunleavy, Singler, Scheyer, Smith, Amaker, Alarie, Langdon...and Bilas, of course.

If you're NBA Rookie of the Year, you're on an "All-Duke" team as far as I'm concerned, so I'd move Irving in despite his injury- and eligibility-abbreviated contribution in Durham.

And if you're an Olympic gold medalist and a two-time NBA All-Star, you trump being NDPOY in college, so I'd move Boozer in ahead of Shelden Williams.

And if you're an NBA All-Star, you trump a tremendous collegiate career that hasn't yet translated into similar professional success--though that might change, so I'd move Deng in over Dunleavy, Smith, Singler and Scheyer.

Dunleavy's averaged double figures in all but one of his professional seasons, save for a 9.9 ppg blip. Singler and Scheyer and Smith are three of the all-time greats, but if we're making one of these dream teams and we're taking into consideration criteria beyond what happened as a collegian, they get pushed out for now, IMO.

[JasonEvans]

Dunleavy's averaged double figures in all but one of his professional seasons, save for a 9.9 ppg blip. Singler and Scheyer and Smith are three of the all-time greats, but if we're making one of these dream teams and we're taking into consideration criteria beyond what happened as a collegian, they get pushed out for now, IMO.

I think this is an unanswered question -- are we putting people here based on how they performed in college or based on their total basketball careers? I think we are only looking at them as collegians. That is why I think Kyrie (who many felt was the best player in the entire nation when he was in college as a freshman) is in the conversation despite only playing part of one season.

If we are talking about total basketball talent -- which would include NBA careers -- then we seriously elevate Boozer and it really changes the conversation. Personally, I think it is more fun to only look at these players in terms of their college careers.

-Jason "FWIW, I think Singler's impressive career stats don't -- to me -- replace the eye test. In my mind, the eye test on Singler has him coming up a little short of inclusion on this team" Evans

[NSDukeFan]

I think this is an unanswered question -- are we putting people here based on how they performed in college or based on their total basketball careers? I think we are only looking at them as collegians. That is why I think Kyrie (who many felt was the best player in the entire nation when he was in college as a freshman) is in the conversation despite only playing part of one season.

If we are talking about total basketball talent -- which would include NBA careers -- then we seriously elevate Boozer and it really changes the conversation. Personally, I think it is more fun to only look at these players in terms of their college careers.

-Jason "FWIW, I think Singler's impressive career stats don't -- to me -- replace the eye test. In my mind, the eye test on Singler has him coming up a little short of inclusion on this team" Evans

The other question would be are we looking at players at their peak or total college basketball careers? If you are looking at peaks, than I can see the rationale for looking at Kyrie and your questioning Kyle's inclusion (though he looked pretty good winning MOP of the Final Four and doing everything besides shooting well his final year). If you are looking at total college basketball careers, I would think it would be impossible not to include Kyle and impossible to include Kyrie.

[luvdahops]

It's a little unfair to Alarie to compare him to Singler just on per-game stats. Give Alarie a 35-second shot clock and a 3-point shot for four seasons and those numbers are going to change.

Plus, Alarie was a superb defender. Forced to choose, I would narrowly opt for Alarie over Singler, while trying to figure out a way to keep both.

And should we consider Gene Banks? Only one year under K but a pretty darn good one.

Very good points on Alarie / Singler comparisons - you beat me to the punch on those. I would add that the ACC was much more competitive top to bottom, and the leaguewide talent pool deeper, during Mark's era.

I purposefully left off one and dones from my list, and would probably exclude Banks along similar lines,

[jimsumner]

I think this is an unanswered question -- are we putting people here based on how they performed in college or based on their total basketball careers? I think we are only looking at them as collegians. That is why I think Kyrie (who many felt was the best player in the entire nation when he was in college as a freshman) is in the conversation despite only playing part of one season.

If we are talking about total basketball talent -- which would include NBA careers -- then we seriously elevate Boozer and it really changes the conversation. Personally, I think it is more fun to only look at these players in terms of their college careers.

-Jason "FWIW, I think Singler's impressive career stats don't -- to me -- replace the eye test. In my mind, the eye test on Singler has him coming up a little short of inclusion on this team" Evans

This is a not insignificant distinction. Let's look at two of the players on the 1999 team. If we're looking at just college careers, then Chris Carrawell should be in the mix. If we're factoring in NBA careers, then he drops out of the discussion but Corey Maggette gets consideration. One was an ACC POY who never played a second in the NBA, the other was a one-year sixth man in college who has scored over 13,000 points in the NBA.

Amaker, Phil Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, Thomas Hill and numerous others never suited up in the NBA. To what extent--if any-does this diminish their Duke careers? [Singler likely will]

My inclination is to give priority to their college careers but that may just be because I prefer the college game and watch it a lot more thoroughly. But the dream team is an NBA concept.

But it's a bit of an apples and oranges thing.

[airowe]

I'd put Alarie on the team but swap out Shelden for him. Also, Shane very rarely played SF at Duke. He would be part of my 5-man post rotation instead - Laettner, Brand, Ferry, Alarie and Battier. Lots of great combos there.

I would also go with Nolan over Scheyer, and probably take a defensive ace such as Carrawell or Billy King over Singler for the final spot.

Alarie was definitely in the discussion, but not for long. Maybe he should have been in the discussion longer after reading JimSumner's posts.

Take Shelden off the team though? People often underappreciate Shelden's accomplishments at Duke.


2x NABC Defensive Player of the Year (2005-2006)

AP First Team All-American (2006)

John R. Wooden First Team All-American (2006)

John R. Wooden National Player of the Year Finalist (2006)

Duke All-Time Leader in Blocked Shots (422)

Duke Single Season Blocked Shots Record (137)

Duke All-Time Leader in Rebounds (1,262)

Third Duke Basketball Player to Record a Triple-Double (2006)

Third Player in NCAA History to have 1,500 points, 1,000 rebounds, 350 blocked shots and 150 steals

Third Player in ACC History to have 1,500 points, 1,000 rebounds and 350 blocked shots

Retired Jersey Number at Duke (#23)


In my opinion, Shelden absolutely deserves to be on that list.

[-jk]

If memory serves, there are nine retired jerseys for players under K. I think you could start there and build.

I suspect K would endorse them as his nine best all time - or they wouldn't be the his only nine in the rafters.

-jk

[robobevan]

I think Singler suffers in peoples' memory because his career didn't end on a high note. He was in a shooting slump of I remember and team had disappointing end to season whereas alarie's team while it lost had a very magical run his last season. If singler had left after his junior year or they had won in his senior year he would be higher up the list.

[basket1544]

Kyle deserves to be on this list. His all-time stats are amazing.
Maybe we need 2 Dream Teams. One for those that graduated before the three point shot and the 35 sec shot clock, and one for after. Isn't this an awesome problem to have?

[jimsumner]

Kyle deserves to be on this list. His all-time stats are amazing.
Maybe we need 2 Dream Teams. One for those that graduated before the three point shot and the 35 sec shot clock, and one for after. Isn't this an awesome problem to have?

If other schools were having this discussion, they'd have guys like Vince Taylor, Roshown McLeod, Dahntay Jones, Chris Duhon and Gerald Henderson, all of whom were first-team All-ACC and several of whom made All-America. None of them even make the Duke first cut and future NBA players like Alaa Abdelnaby, Tony Lang, Cherokee Parks, William Avery, Dan Ewing and Josh McRoberts are even further behind.

Truly an embarassment of riches.

[Zeb]

Kyle deserves to be on this list. His all-time stats are amazing.

Kyle's career statistics look great because he played 4 years in an era when the best talent played 1 year. He got more playing time (especially early on in his career) than he would have in an earlier era, and all of his playing time was against less talented competition. I love Kyle and I am so glad he played for us 4 years. But if you try to use his career totals to compare his talent to players who played in different eras and a different amount of minutes, its just not a good comparison. For example... Kyle played the same number of games but 800 more minutes than Laettner. That's almost a whole season.

Swap Kyle and Grant Hill in time, and Kyle's career totals plummet.

[basket1544]

I'm not going to argue Kyle versus Grant. I am going to argue Kyle versus Mark Alarie though. The article says that the 4 criteria he is using is: Personal Achievements, Importance to their Team, All Time Stats and Rankings, and Personal Opinion. Kyle's defense was more important to the 2010 Championship team than everyone else. It is hard to determine who their most important player was on offense, but Kyle usually played head to head against the other team's best player and his defense won them many, many games. His all time stats and personal achievements help, but I think the importance to the team factor is what puts him over the top.

[gep]

Kyle deserves to be on this list. His all-time stats are amazing.
Maybe we need 2 Dream Teams. One for those that graduated before the three point shot and the 35 sec shot clock, and one for after. Isn't this an awesome problem to have?

How about what they do with USA Basketball? The "dream team", and the "select team". I would guess the last 2-4 players on the "dream team" would be debatable, but at least they get to the "select team" :cool:

[Bob Green]

It is hard to imagine a Coach K era "Dream Team" which does not include Mark Alarie. I believe some folks forget while other younger fans do not realize just how good Alarie was. He belongs on the team over Kyle Singler. Trajan Langdon should be included at the expense of Jon Scheyer.

So I just removed two 2010 National Champions off the "Dream Team" which goes a long way toward explaining why the 2010 team was so special.

I really desire to find a spot for Tommy Amaker as he was a special player but there just isn't room on the roster.

[Mike Corey]

If memory serves, there are nine retired jerseys for players under K. I think you could start there and build.

I suspect K would endorse them as his nine best all time - or they wouldn't be the his only nine in the rafters.

-jk

For fear of quibbling, that assumes Coach K would disqualify from his list of the "best" the same way he disqualifies those meriting jersey retirement.

Rather, Kyrie Irving and Luol Deng will never have their jerseys retired, but I think it would be a surprise if Coach K did not consider them to be among the best he's coached in Durham. Of course, if we're using the criteria that the discussion seems to have settled upon, you are of course absolutely right and my entire post is like Matt Doherty's tenure in Chapel Hill: an exercise in futility. :)

[BobbyFan]

There are 2 approaches with these teams: making the best possible team or the team composed of the players with the greatest careers. Or an unclear mix of both. "Duke's Dream Team" would suggest the former, but the author's methodology aims for the latter.

[sagegrouse]

There are 2 approaches with these teams: making the best possible team or the team composed of the players with the greatest careers. Or an unclear mix of both. "Duke's Dream Team" would suggest the former, but the author's methodology aims for the latter.

I go with the former. Here are my concentric circles of Blue Devil Hell (for the opponents, of course):

Retired Jerseys (9)
Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Battier
JWill
JJ
Shelden

Add, NPOY (10)
Brand

Add, 1st Team A-A Consensus (12)
Carrawell
Nolan
(Both were also ACC POY)

Add, 1st Team All-ACC (23)
[All of above were also 1st team All-ACC]
Banks
VTaylor
Alarie (2x)
Trajan (3x)
Dunleavy
Boozer
Duhon
DeMarcus
Scheyer
GHenderson
Singler (2x)

Add, Natl Def. POY (26)
[Grant, Battier, Shelden also]
Amaker
Billy King
Wojo

Pretty good list of players over 32 years, ya' think?

Anyway, the first 12 are my list. Surprises could be Carrawell and Nolan, but they were terrific players for Duke. And, boy, does that leave off some great players: Banks, Alarie, Langdon, Singler and all the rest.

[jimsumner]

I go with the former. Here are my concentric circles of Blue Devil Hell (for the opponents, of course):

Retired Jerseys (9)
Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Battier
JWill
JJ
Shelden

Add, NPOY (10)
Brand

Add, 1st Team A-A Consensus (12)
Carrawell
Nolan
(Both were also ACC POY)

Add, 1st Team All-ACC (23)
[All of above were also 1st team All-ACC]
Banks
VTaylor
Alarie (2x)
Trajan (3x)
Dunleavy
Boozer
Duhon
DeMarcus
Scheyer
GHenderson
Singler (2x)

Add, Natl Def. POY (26)
[Grant, Battier, Shelden also]
Amaker
Billy King
Wojo

Pretty good list of players over 32 years, ya' think?

Anyway, the first 12 are my list. Surprises could be Carrawell and Nolan, but they were terrific players for Duke. And, boy, does that leave off some great players: Banks, Alarie, Langdon, Singler and all the rest.

Roshown McLeod and Dahntay Jones also were first-team All-ACC.

Earlier I mentioned the depth of Duke's top-level talent over the years. Let's look at Clemson as a contrast. Since K took over at Duke, Clemson has had six players make first-team All-ACC; Horace Grant, Dale Davis, Elden Campbell, Will Solomon, Edward Scott and Trevor Booker.

So, if Clemson were doing this sort of thing, half of their team would consist of players who had never made first-team All-conference. Virginia Tech, Miami and BC likely would have similar restraints.

By contrast, Duke has guys who were consensus All-Americans who would not make the dandy dozen.

Some more thoughts on Alarie and Singler. Again, I would love to have both and any distinctions I'm making between the two are minor. Alarie largel played in the shadow of classmate Dawkins, although it can be argued that Alarie had a better 1984 season than did Dawkins. But Singler was never actually Duke's best player for an entire season. Nelson in 2008, Henderson 2009, Scheyer 2010 and Smith 2011 were Duke's best players during Singler's four years at Duke.

Singler was absolutely essential to Duke's success but so was Alarie. He did finish his Duke career 26 years ago--geez, that makes me feel old--and many of our younger posters likely never saw him play. But he was a seriously major talent.

Someone else mentioned that Alarie played in an era when top players tended to stay around longer. Alarie was joined by Johnny Dawkins, Len Bias, Mark Price and Brad Daugherty on the 1986 All-ACC first team.

All five were seniors. Imagine a Brad Daugherty staying four years today. Some of the players who did not make first-team All-ACC in 1986 are Olden Polynice, John Salley, Chris Washburn, Nate McMillan, Kenny Smith, Muggsy Bogues, Bruce Dalrymple, Keith Gatlin, Duane Ferrell, Charles Shackelford, et. al. double round robin, bring it every night.

So, the competition was pretty tough for Alarie and Dawkins.

[Billy Dat]

Singler was absolutely essential to Duke's success

The essence of this statement, to me, is that upon his arrival, it signaled a return to toughness for our team. When the Landlord left in 2006, it left a gaping hole in our front line, but also in our muscle. The tone for our 2007 front line was set by McRoberts and his softer finesse. Enter Singler in the fall who basically stepped into that hole with his 6'8" stature and said - there is a new sheriff in town - Duke aint soft no mo! And we weren't. Above all else, that's why I love that kid.

But, Alarie's number hangs for good reason. It's a great debate.

[jimsumner]

The essence of this statement, to me, is that upon his arrival, it signaled a return to toughness for our team. When the Landlord left in 2006, it left a gaping hole in our front line, but also in our muscle. The tone for our 2007 front line was set by McRoberts and his softer finesse. Enter Singler in the fall who basically stepped into that hole with his 6'8" stature and said - there is a new sheriff in town - Duke aint soft no mo! And we weren't. Above all else, that's why I love that kid.

But, Alarie's number hangs for good reason. It's a great debate.

Actually, it doesn't hang.

But that's another discussion.

[Billy Dat]

Actually, it doesn't hang.

But that's another discussion.

Wow...as Chris Russo would say, "That's a bad job by me!" You'd think with all the hours I have spent on these boards, I'd have known that. Imagine if Duke instituted a process like the Baseball Hall of Fame Veterans Committee to consider players 20+ years who didn't get in the first time? Naturally, the denizens of DBR would form the committee.

[Philly_B]

First time Poster here. Love the forum, and I read it every day. I never feel like I have anything to really contribute to something that is already so great, but this thread, because I feel it is mainly opinion, has prompted me to enter the discussion.


Thanks to a Adam Rowe tweet, I just read this column (http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2012/06/19/dukes-dream-team/) where Chad Lykins discusses his Duke "Dream Team" of the K era. He picks 12 players.



He said 8 were no brainers: Ferry, Laettner, Battier, Hill, Dawkins, Hurley, Redick, and JWill. I have to agree with that list. Those 8 do stand out above the rest. He considered 5 guys for the final 4 spots and Tommy Amaker was the "bubble boy" with Scheyer getting the 12th spot on the team.

Is it just me or does Kyle Singler stick out like a sore thumb on this list as someone who does not belong? Anyone agree with me that they would take Mark Alarie ahead of Singler? Frankly, I think Nolan Smith should be on it ahead of Scheyer too.

-Jason "this makes for a decent discussion, no?" Evans


While I agree with the list pretty much entirely, I am somewhat surprised that only very few people have mentioned Langdon. Langdon played in a very difficult era with many talented opponents. The irony in the situation is that Langdon was certainly not the most athletic person and primarily a shooter, he still was able to get his. I do believe he is one a very limited number of players ( I think there are five or six in school history) that have ever been three time first team all ACC. My only knock against Langdon is that he doe not have a NC to go along with his stats and merits as a player.




Kyle deserves to be on this list. His all-time stats are amazing.
Kyle's career statistics look great because he played 4 years in an era when the best talent played 1 year. He got more playing time (especially early on in his career) than he would have in an earlier era, and all of his playing time was against less talented competition. I love Kyle and I am so glad he played for us 4 years. But if you try to use his career totals to compare his talent to players who played in different eras and a different amount of minutes, its just not a good comparison. For example... Kyle played the same number of games but 800 more minutes than Laettner. That's almost a whole season.

Swap Kyle and Grant Hill in time, and Kyle's career totals plummet.


This was actually the post that had inclined me to start posting on the board. I understand what this post is trying to convey, however I think plummet is a strong word. Singler was certainly no Hill in terms of athleticism; agreed. Playing against his competition however was not Singler's fault. He played the players and teams that were in his era. To me he did an amazing job at just that. I took the era thing into consideration, I did. But lets think about this too. Kyle was asked a great bit as a player. If K asked him to guard the best player on the other team, he did. In my opinion the case could be made he was the best overall defender in all four years that he was at Duke, say for his Freshman year. So I think his D would translate to the hill era. Also, in my opinion Kyle was mostly guarded by the other teams top two defenders in most cases. While I agree that times were "different" in that era I don't see how we can discount Kyle Singler as a player to the extent that his numbers would plummet. And believe me Zeb, it isn't a personal attack, as I am sure others have felt what you were saying. Kyle was a glue guy, he was a silent leader, he was an amazing defender (both help side and on ball), he offered great versatility, and he was a player that never complained. I always admired that he did what was needed of him. If the team needed him to play the 4 the 3 or the 5, he did it, no complaints. I realize this is very pro Singler and I will land my plane now.

The four areas of critic:
Personal Stats: I believe very few people in ACC history have Kyle's overall statistical makeup. 2400, 1000, 300, 100, 100.
Team Accomplishments: 1 NC,3 ACC Tourney Chips, and a side note of 65-2 home record at home.
Importance to their team: Someone once posted that Kyle wasn't ever the best player on his team in four years. (Most physically gifted and athletic; points of argue for sure, most valuable? Couldn't disagree more.
Personal Opinion: Things that I love about Duke basketball and care most about (Statistically speaking) Home games (you can't love Duke and not care about defending the best home court, at any level of basketball). Winning, and Winning at the highest level. See Team Accomplishments.

In closing, Singler played every single game in a Duke uniform with pride and as if it was his last. I realize that he was not the most talented player out of 12 on this list and quite frankly he might be number 12. But I can't see him not on the list. Kyle was a winner and a great player.

[dcdevil2009]

I really desire to find a spot for Tommy Amaker as he was a special player but there just isn't room on the roster.

I'm sure Coach K could use an assistant coach for this team. Perhaps you could find a spot for him there.


Roshown McLeod and Dahntay Jones also were first-team All-ACC.

As was Austin Rivers.

...

Depending on your definition of "importance to the team," I think Singler and Scheyer could be strong candidates, but there's really no good way to gauge what that means. Take Kyrie for example, we were the top team in the country both with and without him, but as Jay Bilas loved to point out, we were only a "very good" team without him. If he were healthy the whole season, I think that team could have been one of the great college basketball teams of at least the last decade or so. Does the fact that we were a 1 seed without Kyrie mean he wasn't important to the team? I don't think so.

I guess you could estimate the difference between how the team did with a player and how they might have done without him, but that's such a subjective metric, it would be virtually impossible to get a consensus, let alone a provable answer. Perhaps a better way to do it, but something where the stats aren't publicly available, at least not going back very far, would be something like the usage rate stat. At least for a player's offense, his usage rate would give a sense of what the team would need to replace if that player wasn't there. It would obviously devalue players who played with a lot of other talent, but then again, that could suggest their importance to the team wasn't huge, in which case, the other factors would likely be strong enough to counteract that.

[sagegrouse]

I have updated the list with the additions you have suggested (actually, omissions). Here are my five concentric circles of Blue Devil Hell (for the opponents, of course):

Retired Jerseys (9)
Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Battier
JWill
JJ
Shelden

Add, NPOY (10)
Brand

Add, 1st Team A-A Consensus (12)
Carrawell
Nolan
(Both were also ACC POY)

Add, 1st Team All-ACC (26)
[All of above were also 1st team All-ACC]
Banks
VTaylor
Alarie (2x)
Trajan (3x)
McLeod
Dunleavy
Boozer
Dahntay
Duhon
DeMarcus
Scheyer
GHenderson
Singler (2x)
Austin

Add, Natl Def. POY (26)
[Grant, Battier, Shelden also]
Amaker
Billy King
Wojo

An even better list of players. I would consider promoting to the top tier the following players:

Mark Alarie -- twice first team All-ACC -- a really phenomenal player
Trajan -- three consecutive 1st team All-ACC selections
Kyle -- four times All-ACC; twice first team; w-a-a-a-y up the list in points and rebounds; NC
Dunleavy and Boozer -- both terrific college players and sure to be A-A with another year; NC

I would not consider Kyrie, Luol, Maggette or Austin for the Blue Devil Dream Team. One year is not enough.

sagegrouse
'Thanks for pointing out the errors. I am sure there are a few more. But this is a heckuva list of great players'

[Big Pappa]

I would not consider Kyrie, Luol, Maggette or Austin for the Blue Devil Dream Team. One year is not enough.


This is certainly just my opinion, but it would make sense that a "Dream Team" would be comprised of the 12 best players in their prime. The 12 Duke players that you think would be best suited to play against the best players in the world. Something like an "All-Time Duke Team" would be made up of 12 players who had great overall careers at Duke and beyond. When the Olympics pick a team each year (political motivations notwithstanding) they pick the best 12 players they can, not based on career achievement. Obviously this Duke "Dream Team" is a little different because it spans over decades, but the motivation behind it would be the same: the best 12 players (during their prime) that ever played at Duke. Considering those parameters, in no particular order, my team would be:

Elton Brand
Danny Ferry
Christian Laettner
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Grant Hill
Luol Deng
Johnny Dawkins
Bobby Hurley
J.J. Redick
Kyrie Irving
Jay Williams

First two out: Shelden Williams and Trajan Langdon

[dcdevil2009]

This is certainly just my opinion, but it would make sense that a "Dream Team" would be comprised of the 12 best players in their prime. The 12 Duke players that you think would be best suited to play against the best players in the world. Something like an "All-Time Duke Team" would be made up of 12 players who had great overall careers at Duke and beyond. When the Olympics pick a team each year (political motivations notwithstanding) they pick the best 12 players they can, not based on career achievement. Obviously this Duke "Dream Team" is a little different because it spans over decades, but the motivation behind it would be the same: the best 12 players (during their prime) that ever played at Duke. Considering those parameters, in no particular order, my team would be:

Elton Brand
Danny Ferry
Christian Laettner
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Grant Hill
Luol Deng
Johnny Dawkins
Bobby Hurley
J.J. Redick
Kyrie Irving
Jay Williams

First two out: Shelden Williams and Trajan Langdon

The really unfortunate thing about this team is that we don't know what the prime is for most of the point guards on the list. On the other hand, it makes you appreciate how good Jay Williams and Bobby Hurley were in college to see that they're unquestionable worthy of inclusion despite not having been able to reach their full potential.

[brandon990]

Here's how to decide who belongs on this team. Your reputation as a Duke fan, perhaps even your very life itself is riding on one game. That game pits the all time best at Duke versus the all time best unc team. You are forced to sit in the middle of a section packed with every obnoxious tar heel fan you've ever known (and then some). Who do you want bringing the ball up for Duke? Taking 3 pointers? You can debate all day about college career vs NBA career, but when the ball is tipped, there you are.

Kyrie brings it up. Passes to Redick for a three or drives and dishes to Laettner.

[dcdevil2009]

Here's how to decide who belongs on this team. Your reputation as a Duke fan, perhaps even your very life itself is riding on one game. That game pits the all time best at Duke versus the all time best unc team. You are forced to sit in the middle of a section packed with every obnoxious tar heel fan you've ever known (and then some). Who do you want bringing the ball up for Duke? Taking 3 pointers? You can debate all day about college career vs NBA career, but when the ball is tipped, there you are.

Kyrie brings it up. Passes to Redick for a three or drives and dishes to Laettner.

So do I get them in college or the NBA? If I get them in college, do I get their best season or their career averages?

[turnandburn55]

Here's how to decide who belongs on this team. Your reputation as a Duke fan, perhaps even your very life itself is riding on one game. That game pits the all time best at Duke versus the all time best unc team. You are forced to sit in the middle of a section packed with every obnoxious tar heel fan you've ever known (and then some). Who do you want bringing the ball up for Duke? Taking 3 pointers? You can debate all day about college career vs NBA career, but when the ball is tipped, there you are.

Kyrie brings it up. Passes to Redick for a three or drives and dishes to Laettner.

Dude, I love Kyrie, but he played the first 8 games of his freshman year for us. I'm not betting my life on that over the March 2001 version of Jason Williams. We can hear arguments on Bobby Hurley all day, but Williams had every ounce of Kyrie's talent along with the championship production when the chips were on the table.

If you're telling me my life is on the line, my choices are

Brand
Laettner
Yo Daddy
Grant
Jay Dubs

Length, athleticism, versatility, rebounding, defense... have fun matching up with that one.

[Nepos]

Dude, I love Kyrie, but he played the first 8 games of his freshman year for us. I'm not betting my life on that over the March 2001 version of Jason Williams. We can hear arguments on Bobby Hurley all day, but Williams had every ounce of Kyrie's talent along with the championship production when the chips were on the table.

If you're telling me my life is on the line, my choices are

Brand
Laettner
Yo Daddy
Grant
Jay Dubs

Length, athleticism, versatility, rebounding, defense... have fun matching up with that one.

I think you undersell the virtues of this five. Add outside shooting, driving ability, clutch performance, relationship with the coach, communication ability, will to win, ability to play as part of a team, and that certain something that separates great talents from those that rarely appear more than a handful of times each decade; now you are closer to the imposing nature of this five. And they better be -- they are facing Jamison, Hansbrough, Lynch, Jordan, and Lawson (my all-UNC five from the same period).

[J4Kop99]

I don't know where he would necessarily fit in on the all-time list but I'm surprised to see such little mention of one, Chris Duhon.

[David Bunkley]

1 - Hurley, JWill
2 - Redick, Dawkins
3 - Grant, Singler
4 - Battier, Brand
5 - Laettner, Sheldon
Add - Ferry, Trajan

BTW, I know I am biased, but I don't see that all-star team losing to any other college's all-star team; too much defense, too many weapons, and (most importantly) too unselfish-everyone wouldn't just be out there gunning.

1st 2 out - Nolan, Alarie

While I can't dispute the obvious talents of Kyrie, Deng, etc, I just cannot give the nod to those guys based on the brevity of their (DUKE) careers. I still root like hell for 'em in the NBA though.

GO DUKE!!!