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em0526
05-31-2012, 06:17 PM
I saw a recent picture of Kyrie and Nolan on a DBP tweet which was captioned "As good a college backcourt you'll ever see..." and it got me thinking has there been a better backcourt at Duke? The Williams/Duhon backcourt was pretty darn good also. Hurley/T. Hill got two rings. I'm sure there are several others that I am forgetting.

Lord Ash
05-31-2012, 06:43 PM
Duhon/JWill has to be at the top of the list, no? That said, the Kyrie/Nolan combo is pretty insane, even if it never quite got going for a season the way we would have liked.

OZZIE4DUKE
05-31-2012, 06:45 PM
Two guys named Dawkins and Amaker certainly were no slouches. :cool:

jv001
05-31-2012, 06:57 PM
2010 Back court of Jon and Nolan wasn't bad. GoDuke!

Dukehky
05-31-2012, 07:04 PM
Wojo/Avery and Langdon was pretty good. Avery would have been special.

I just have a soft spot in my heart for the Alaskan Assassin, never really knew why.

jimsumner
05-31-2012, 07:33 PM
Steve Vacendak and Bob Verga, c. 1966.

Deserve to be in the discussion.

jv001
05-31-2012, 08:03 PM
Tate Armstrong and Jim Spanarkel was another good backcourt. Jim would be better in the FF year. They are two of my favorite Duke players ever. GoDuke!

Indoor66
05-31-2012, 08:05 PM
Steve Vacendak and Bob Verga, c. 1966.

Deserve to be in the discussion.

Jim, they were two of the best ever.

Chris Randolph
05-31-2012, 09:02 PM
I can't give the nod to Irving/Smith. Really like both of them and wish so badly we would have seen a full season of the two. But they didn't play many games together, 3 of which in the NCAA tournament weren't all that impressive from a backcourt point of view. I'd take Williams and Duhon

ricks68
05-31-2012, 11:18 PM
Jim, they were two of the best ever.

Didn't you just love it when Vacendak took the inbounds pass and then dribbled right through the famous UCLA press in the Indoor Stadium every time before nailing the jumper himself or passing it to Verga for "2" or feeding Lewis for the jam? Pretty darn good backcourt if you ask me.

ricks

Olympic Fan
06-01-2012, 12:37 AM
To a large degree, how much does his question hang on time played together?

For instance, Irving and Smith are two of the most talented guards to ever play together ... but they were really only Duke's backcourt for eight games (WhenIrving returned in the NCAAs he came off the bench, so even though he and Smith were often on the court with each other, it was often one or the other -- along with Curry).

That's the prblem wih he Vacendak-Verga backcourt They were great together in 1965-66 when they helped Duke win the ACC and reach the Final Four, but that was the only year they were Duke's backcourt. In 1964-65, when Verga was sophomore, he shared the backcourt with point guard Denny Ferguson, while Vacendak played small forward (and he really was a foward and not a third guard in Bubas' system). In 1966-67 Vacendek as gone. Duhon and Jason Williams started together for the last 10 games of the 2000-01 season and for all of the 2001-02 season. They won two ACC championships, a national championship and played together on two teams that finished No. 1 in the final AP poll. Duke's record was 41-4 when they started together.

Still, I think Duke's greatest backcourt has to be Dawkins and Amaker. They started together for three years --the three years that saw the rise of Duke basketball under Coach K. Their three teams were 24-10, 23-8, 37-3 -- 84-21 overall ... and they started every one of those 105 games together. Dawkns finished his career as the top scorer in Duke history (holding that mark until 2006) and Amaker finished his career as the first official National Defensive player of the year. Granted, that was in 1987 (the year after Dawkins left), but Amaker averaged more than two steals a game in 1986 (before there was a NDPOY). Nobody applied ball presure like Tommy Amaker (although Wojo and Hurley were close). Amaker ended his career as Duke's al-time steals leader and when they finished Dawkins and Amaker were 1-2 in Duke history in career assists -- even now, they are No. 3 and No. 6 on Duke's list.

I think they get the nod for (1) how well they fit together and (2) how long they played together (more than twice as long as Vacendek/Verga or Williams/Duhon). I suppose that Irving and Smith were a more talented combo -- so were Jason Williams and Chris Duhon -- but when you measure the overall impact of Duke backcourts, Dawkins an Amaker have to get the prize.

ricks68
06-01-2012, 01:09 AM
To a large degree, how much does his question hang on time played together?

For instance, Irving and Smith are two of the most talented guards to ever play together ... but they were really only Duke's backcourt for eight games (WhenIrving returned in the NCAAs he came off the bench, so even though he and Smith were often on the court with each other, it was often one or the other -- along with Curry).

That's the prblem wih he Vacendak-Verga backcourt They were great together in 1965-66 when they helped Duke win the ACC and reach the Final Four, but that was the only year they were Duke's backcourt. In 1964-65, when Verga was sophomore, he shared the backcourt with point guard Denny Ferguson, while Vacendak played small forward (and he really was a foward and not a third guard in Bubas' system). In 1966-67 Vacendek as gone. Duhon and Jason Williams started together for the last 10 games of the 2000-01 season and for all of the 2001-02 season. They won two ACC championships, a national championship and played together on two teams that finished No. 1 in the final AP poll. Duke's record was 41-4 when they started together.

Still, I think Duke's greatest backcourt has to be Dawkins and Amaker. They started together for three years --the three years that saw the rise of Duke basketball under Coach K. Their three teams were 24-10, 23-8, 37-3 -- 84-21 overall ... and they started every one of those 105 games together. Dawkns finished his career as the top scorer in Duke history (holding that mark until 2006) and Amaker finished his career as the first official National Defensive player of the year. Granted, that was in 1987 (the year after Dawkins left), but Amaker averaged more than two steals a game in 1986 (before there was a NDPOY). Nobody applied ball presure like Tommy Amaker (although Wojo and Hurley were close). Amaker ended his career as Duke's al-time steals leader and when they finished Dawkins and Amaker were 1-2 in Duke history in career assists -- even now, they are No. 3 and No. 6 on Duke's list.

I think they get the nod for (1) how well they fit together and (2) how long they played together (more than twice as long as Vacendek/Verga or Williams/Duhon). I suppose that Irving and Smith were a more talented combo -- so were Jason Williams and Chris Duhon -- but when you measure the overall impact of Duke backcourts, Dawkins an Amaker have to get the prize.

My final vote goes along with Olympic Fan's analysis.

ricks

Indoor66
06-01-2012, 07:05 AM
Have we moved the goal post to the best two or three year backcourt or just the best backcourt. The V & V backcourt only played together for one year but that does not disqualify they for the best. They were extremely productive and quit complementary in their play. Isn't tht the criteria?

jv001
06-01-2012, 07:59 AM
To a large degree, how much does his question hang on time played together?

For instance, Irving and Smith are two of the most talented guards to ever play together ... but they were really only Duke's backcourt for eight games (WhenIrving returned in the NCAAs he came off the bench, so even though he and Smith were often on the court with each other, it was often one or the other -- along with Curry).

That's the prblem wih he Vacendak-Verga backcourt They were great together in 1965-66 when they helped Duke win the ACC and reach the Final Four, but that was the only year they were Duke's backcourt. In 1964-65, when Verga was sophomore, he shared the backcourt with point guard Denny Ferguson, while Vacendak played small forward (and he really was a foward and not a third guard in Bubas' system). In 1966-67 Vacendek as gone. Duhon and Jason Williams started together for the last 10 games of the 2000-01 season and for all of the 2001-02 season. They won two ACC championships, a national championship and played together on two teams that finished No. 1 in the final AP poll. Duke's record was 41-4 when they started together.

Still, I think Duke's greatest backcourt has to be Dawkins and Amaker. They started together for three years --the three years that saw the rise of Duke basketball under Coach K. Their three teams were 24-10, 23-8, 37-3 -- 84-21 overall ... and they started every one of those 105 games together. Dawkns finished his career as the top scorer in Duke history (holding that mark until 2006) and Amaker finished his career as the first official National Defensive player of the year. Granted, that was in 1987 (the year after Dawkins left), but Amaker averaged more than two steals a game in 1986 (before there was a NDPOY). Nobody applied ball presure like Tommy Amaker (although Wojo and Hurley were close). Amaker ended his career as Duke's al-time steals leader and when they finished Dawkins and Amaker were 1-2 in Duke history in career assists -- even now, they are No. 3 and No. 6 on Duke's list.

I think they get the nod for (1) how well they fit together and (2) how long they played together (more than twice as long as Vacendek/Verga or Williams/Duhon). I suppose that Irving and Smith were a more talented combo -- so were Jason Williams and Chris Duhon -- but when you measure the overall impact of Duke backcourts, Dawkins an Amaker have to get the prize.

After this great break down, my vote goes to Tommy A & Johnny D. Both were great players, imo. Not just good but great. GoDuke!

75Crazie
06-01-2012, 08:06 AM
Have we moved the goal post to the best two or three year backcourt or just the best backcourt. The V & V backcourt only played together for one year but that does not disqualify they for the best. They were extremely productive and quit complementary in their play. Isn't tht the criteria?
I think number of games together has to at least be somewhere in the equation. When I first saw the thread title the Dawkins/Amaker combination was the one that leapt immediately to my mind, followed by Williams/Duhon, but I'll admit that Verga/Vacendak was just slightly before my time.

weezie
06-01-2012, 08:16 AM
Gotta go with Williams/Duhon.
Can still remember the sound of the crack in the head that Duhon took from Steve Blake at the FF. And still Chris came back to win it all.
JWill? One of the coolest guys on the planet.

COYS
06-01-2012, 11:28 AM
2010 Back court of Jon and Nolan wasn't bad. GoDuke!

Totally agree. I'm surprised the Jon/Nolan combo hasn't gotten more love. Jon will always be underrated, but it's hard to point to two more complementary players. Jon, the methodical orchestrator who always made the right decision and had a penchant for hitting clutch shots; and Nolan, the tireless defender who could be counted on to come up with big plays off the dribble when the team needed it most. I think that their 09-'10 season was definitely one of the single best seasons from a Duke backcourt. Obviously, the '85-'86 Amaker/Dawkins pairing was pretty spectacular, too. And I can't vouch for anything that happened in the 60's but I'll trust Jim Sumner on that. Duhon and Williams were really good as well. Personally, I'd put all four of those pairings above Kyrie and Nolan mostly because we never really got to see them operate at a high level for long enough (although the defensive demolition of K-State by Nolan combined with the offense of Kyrie was pretty spectacular!).

Jderf
06-01-2012, 11:56 AM
Totally agree. I'm surprised the Jon/Nolan combo hasn't gotten more love. Jon will always be underrated, but it's hard to point to two more complementary players. Jon, the methodical orchestrator who always made the right decision and had a penchant for hitting clutch shots; and Nolan, the tireless defender who could be counted on to come up with big plays off the dribble when the team needed it most. I think that their 09-'10 season was definitely one of the single best seasons from a Duke backcourt.

In addition, there was a lot of discussion that year about whether or not Kyle should be considered part of the backcourt. If you decide to let Kyle in, I think it pushes that group past any other without question. Whatever terms of discussion we end up using -- "the perimeter" or "the backcourt" or "guards" or "wings" or whatever -- at the very least, 2010 was certainly one of our best perimeter-oriented teams ever. This is especially true when you consider that the offensive contribution from the post was nearly non-existent, except in the form of rebounds (which can't be overstated) and garbage buckets. It really is amazing that those guys pulled it off that year.

jimsumner
06-01-2012, 12:08 PM
If we're giving bumps for longevity, we should consider Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill. Played together for four years, started for three, both made All-ACC three times. Had some team success too.

gumbomoop
06-01-2012, 12:20 PM
I think I have heard K say, or have heard him quoted as having said, that his '86 NC runner-up team would beat all subsequent Duke FF teams. I'm guessing - if he said this - it was partly just a playful dig at whatever is his latest really talented group of players. A sort of, "You guys think you're good, but my '86 guys would have run you off the floor....." I can also imagine him adding, "Especially if I move Bilas to the bench and start Ferry."

Hard to say whether, 10 years from now, looking back, a reflective K would actually publicly specify his choice for his "best" backcourt, so it's just my opinion that he'd vote for Dawkins and Amaker.

Jderf
06-01-2012, 12:21 PM
If we're giving bumps for longevity, we should consider Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill. Played together for four years, started for three, both made All-ACC three times. Had some team success too.

Meiosis much?

Olympic Fan
06-01-2012, 01:53 PM
If we're giving bumps for longevity, we should consider Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill. Played together for four years, started for three, both made All-ACC three times. Had some team success too.

Consideration -- yes, but personally, I think they still come up short to Dawkins-Amaker.

Thomas Hill and Hurley kind of started for three years together -- Hill was a sporadic starter in 1991. He started 23 of 39 games - two more than Billy McCaffrey. In 1992 nd 1993, Hurley and Hill were the starters (except when Hurley was hurt). They did start together on two national championship teams (since Hill started during the 1991 NCAA Tournament).

I would still argue that Dawkins and Amaker were better. Hurley was a great playmaker (greater than Amaker) and a great on-the-ball defender (almost as good as Amaker). Hurley was the better offensive player, averaging 12.4 ppg for his career to Amaker's 8.5 (although Amaker did shoot over 46 percent from the floor -- Hurley was 41 percent). On the other hand, Thomas Hill -- as good as he was -- was not in Dawkins' class. It's not close.

Hill did make All-ACC three times -- all third team and twice the final player picked to the third team. There was no third team when Dawkins (two time first team; twice second team) and Amaker (once second team) played.

Hill and Hurley did have a bit more team success -- but a couple of guys named Christian Laettner and Grant Hill might have helped a little.

Don't get me wrong -- I think Hurley and Thomas Hill deserve to be in consideration, but not at the top. After reading this thread and thinking about it, I'd rate them:

1. Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker
2. Chris Duhon and Jason Williams
3. Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill
4. Bob Verga and Steve Vacendek
5. Chris Duhon and JJ Redick (they actually started more games together than Duhon and Williams ... the only reason they are not higher is that Redick only became a GREAT player as a junior in 2005 ... he was still good in 2003 and 2004, when he played with Duhon, but was a fairly one-dimensional player at that point).
6. Nolan Smith and Jon Scheyer (only one year as the starting backcourt, but it was a pretty good year)
7. Tate Armstrong and Jim Spanarkel (only together in 1976, when Spanarkel was a freshman and through the first 13 games in 1977)
8. Quin Snyder and Kevin Strickland
(tie) Quin Snyder and Phil Henderson (I wanted to include Quin -- a much underrated player -- but he really only started with Strickland in '88 and Henderson in '89. Still, Duke went to the Final Four both years).

That's about as far asmy memory goes back. I'd like to include Buzzy Harrison, but he never really played with a first-rate guard. Same with Gary Melchionni. He overlapped with Dick DeVenzio (who was prett good) one year, but Melchionni was sick most of that year and played less than Jeff Dawson. Maybe Bob Bender and Spanarkel in '79 or Bender and Vince Taylor in 1980, but that would be stretching things. Heck, Nolan Smith and Seth Curry in 2011 were a better combo (even if Curry started just 19 of 37 games). Maybe Redick and Paulus in 2006 (Redick was a great SG and OPaulus did lead the ACC in assists as a freshman).

Personally, i can't rate Smith and Irving in the top 10 off eight games ... but they would have been awfully darn good.

OZZIE4DUKE
06-01-2012, 01:59 PM
Two guys named Dawkins and Amaker certainly were no slouches. :cool:




1. Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker
2. Chris Duhon and Jason Williams
3. Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill
4. Bob Verga and Steve Vacendek
5. Chris Duhon and JJ Redick (they actually started more games together than Duhon and Williams ... the only reason they are not higher is that Redick only became a GREAT player as a junior in 2005 ... he was still good in 2003 and 2004, when he played with Duhon, but was a fairly one-dimensional player at that point).
6. Nolan Smith and Jon Scheyer (only one year as the starting backcourt, but it was a pretty good year)
7. Tate Armstrong and Jim Spanarkel (only together in 1976, when Spanarkel was a freshman and through the first 13 games in 1977)
8. Quin Snyder and Kevin Strickland
(tie) Quin Snyder and Phil Henderson (I wanted to include Quin -- a much underrated player -- but he really only started with Strickland in '88 and Henderson in '89. Still, Duke went to the Final Four both years).

That's about as far asmy memory goes back. I'd like to include Buzzy Harrison, but he never really played with a first-rate guard. Same with Gary Melchionni. He overlapped with Dick DeVenzio (who was prett good) one year, but Melchionni was sick most of that year and played less than Jeff Dawson. Maybe Bob Bender and Spanarkel in '79 or Bender and Vince Taylor in 1980, but that would be stretching things. Heck, Nolan Smith and Seth Curry in 2011 were a better combo (even if Curry started just 19 of 37 games). Maybe Redick and Paulus in 2006 (Redick was a great SG and OPaulus did lead the ACC in assists as a freshman).

Personally, i can't rate Smith and Irving in the top 10 off eight games ... but they would have been awfully darn good.

Yeah, I'll go along with your analysis and rankings! :cool:

jimsumner
06-01-2012, 04:40 PM
Duhon and Redick? Interesting dilemma. For part of 2003 and all of 2004, they started along with Ewing.
Duhon was the point. Who was the other guard, Redick or Ewing?

phaedrus
06-01-2012, 04:43 PM
Austin Rivers and Austin Rivers.

KIDDING.

Olympic Fan
06-01-2012, 05:34 PM
Duhon and Redick? Interesting dilemma. For part of 2003 and all of 2004, they started along with Ewing.
Duhon was the point. Who was the other guard, Redick or Ewing?

In truth, THAT was the real birth of the three guard lineup. I know K had used it before, but never as extensively -- or with three guys who were clearly guards -- as Duhon, Redick and Ewing. Before, the third guard was always somebody like David Henderson or Greg Koubek. Okay, thinking about it, I guess we saw a lot of it in '97 (Wojo, Langdon, Capel).

You can split hairs about positions -- no debate that Duhon was the point guard, but Redick and Ewing were equally wing guards. Okay, as I rememeber, Ewing usually guarded the small forward btu the evidence on the boards was mixed. Ewing was the better rebounder in '03, but Redick rebounded better than Ewing in '04.

They also played three (and sometimes four) guards in 2005. Dockery was the closest to a point guard until he got hurt and Ewing kind of took over the point. Nelson, when he wasn't hurt could definitely qualify as the SF (and even the PF in the four-guard lineup). He was the strongest and best rebounding guard we've had in modern times, even at 6-3.

luvdahops
06-01-2012, 06:17 PM
In truth, THAT was the real birth of the three guard lineup. I know K had used it before, but never as extensively -- or with three guys who were clearly guards -- as Duhon, Redick and Ewing. Before, the third guard was always somebody like David Henderson or Greg Koubek. Okay, thinking about it, I guess we saw a lot of it in '97 (Wojo, Langdon, Capel).

You can split hairs about positions -- no debate that Duhon was the point guard, but Redick and Ewing were equally wing guards. Okay, as I rememeber, Ewing usually guarded the small forward btu the evidence on the boards was mixed. Ewing was the better rebounder in '03, but Redick rebounded better than Ewing in '04.

They also played three (and sometimes four) guards in 2005. Dockery was the closest to a point guard until he got hurt and Ewing kind of took over the point. Nelson, when he wasn't hurt could definitely qualify as the SF (and even the PF in the four-guard lineup). He was the strongest and best rebounding guard we've had in modern times, even at 6-3.

I might even argue that 96 (Collins, Capel and Price) was the first instance of a true 3-guard offnese, though Price was more of a swingman true SG, so would have to go with 97, as you note above. That team also finished the year with perhaps the ultimate small ball lineup - Wojo, Langdon, Capel, Carrawell (natural wing at PF) and McLeod (natural combo forward at C).

DeMarcus may have been the most unusual player K has ever had. At the NBA draft camp, he actually measured just 6-1 in socks, though with a 6-10 wingspan, 38.5 inch max vertical and 11-5 max reach (higher than Russell Westbrook's and generally in the company of 6-6 or 6-7 guys).

wsb3
06-01-2012, 06:32 PM
Dawkins & Amaker...We have had some great back courts and I love the shout outs to Verga Vacendak but no way they come close on the defensive end to Amaker & Dawkins. We may have had better offensive guards though they were pretty darn good but when you weigh in the defensive side of things I think it has to be Dawkins Amaker. Al McGuire was calling a Duke game and said Dawkins & Amaker were the best back court of the decade nationally or something to that effect. He caught some flak for it but he stood by his statement if my shaky memory serves me correctly.

Newton_14
06-01-2012, 08:31 PM
Dawkins & Amaker...We have had some great back courts and I love the shout outs to Verga Vacendak but no way they come close on the defensive end to Amaker & Dawkins. We may have had better offensive guards though they were pretty darn good but when you weigh in the defensive side of things I think it has to be Dawkins Amaker. Al McGuire was calling a Duke game and said Dawkins & Amaker were the best back court of the decade nationally or something to that effect. He caught some flak for it but he stood by his statement if my shaky memory serves me correctly.

I have to agree, mainly because, not only were both really good players (at the time Dawkins was becoming the best ever Duke player at that point in time), but they were a perfect fit together. Dawkins was the best offensive player on the floor, and a really good defender, while Amaker was the best defensive player on the floor, and really good offensively as well. They complemented each other perfectly.

With Williams and Duhon, I always thought they were at their best when Williams was the PG and Duhon the SG. I never liked it in 2002 when K switched them. Will always believe Duke would have been a better team that year had K played them the way he did down the stretch in 2001. Jason needed the ball in his hands to be at his best imo.

jimsumner
06-01-2012, 09:07 PM
This raises the question of best college backcourt ever.

My vote goes to Walt Hazzard and Gail Goodrich, c. 1964.

Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

Verga3
06-01-2012, 09:33 PM
This raises the question of best college backcourt ever.

My vote goes to Walt Hazzard and Gail Goodrich, c. 1964.

Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

Hard to argue with Hazzard & Goodrich. Another one that's close could be Durham native, John Lucas and Phiily-born, Mo Howard in the mid-70's?

jv001
06-01-2012, 11:23 PM
As good as Jerry West(The Cabin Creek Comet) & Pistol Pete were in college it doesn't make much difference who their running mate was. I certainly can't remember. So I would have to put them up there on their play alone. GoDuke!

OldPhiKap
06-01-2012, 11:30 PM
Two guys named Dawkins and Amaker certainly were no slouches. :cool:

Talk about a mixture of scoring and defense/assists.

JWill and Duhon were probably more interchangeable, but JD and Tommy were SO much fun to watch.

hurleyfor3
06-01-2012, 11:31 PM
Austin Rivers and Austin Rivers.

Hurley and a tree stump.

OldPhiKap
06-01-2012, 11:35 PM
Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

That, or Fire and Ice -- Corchiani and Monroe.

OldPhiKap
06-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Hurley and a tree stump.

Me and Kyrie would give anyone a run for their money.

Me and Uncle Drew, close second.

jimsumner
06-02-2012, 12:06 AM
As good as Jerry West(The Cabin Creek Comet) & Pistol Pete were in college it doesn't make much difference who their running mate was. I certainly can't remember. So I would have to put them up there on their play alone. GoDuke!

West (and Oscar Robertson) were front-court players in college.

wsb3
06-02-2012, 07:30 AM
That, or Fire and Ice -- Corchiani and Monroe.

One of my favorite non Duke back courts ever.

sagegrouse
06-02-2012, 09:19 AM
Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

Phil Ford and John Kuester? Phil Ford was an all-time great and Kuester was pretty good.

sage

jimsumner
06-02-2012, 10:55 AM
Phil Ford and John Kuester? Phil Ford was an all-time great and Kuester was pretty good.

sage

I think Ford was the best player in UNC history. But Kuester brings down the average.

I suspect I'd rank Felton/McCants and Lawson/Ellington higher.

jv001
06-02-2012, 11:02 AM
West (and Oscar Robertson) were front-court players in college.

Yes, I guess West played forward in his college days. 6'3 to 6'4 forwards were common in those day. Like Jeff Mullins for Duke. GoDuke!

jimsumner
06-02-2012, 11:55 AM
Yes, I guess West played forward in his college days. 6'3 to 6'4 forwards were common in those day. Like Jeff Mullins for Duke. GoDuke!

Jerry West averaged 16.5 rebounds per game as a senior at WVU. Seriously. 16.5 rpg.

13.3 for his career at WVU.

wsb3
06-02-2012, 12:13 PM
I think Ford was the best player in UNC history. But Kuester brings down the average.

I suspect I'd rank Felton/McCants and Lawson/Ellington higher.

Phil Ford... I agree the best player in UNC history.

NSDukeFan
06-02-2012, 12:33 PM
Phil Ford... I agree the best player in UNC history.

But was he pre-season first team all-American as a freshman?

OZZIE4DUKE
06-02-2012, 12:39 PM
Phil Ford and John Kuester? Phil Ford was an all-time great and Kuester was pretty good.

sage

Very few players force the rules of college basketball to be changed. Phil Ford did. We wouldn't have a shot clock if he couldn't run the four corners offense as effectively as he did.

ricks68
06-02-2012, 01:03 PM
Very few players force the rules of college basketball to be changed. Phil Ford did. We wouldn't have a shot clock if he couldn't run the four corners offense as effectively as he did.

Like Lew Alcindor changed the dunking rules for a while, Oz. He didn't need no stinkin' four corners.:p

ricks

jimsumner
06-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Very few players force the rules of college basketball to be changed. Phil Ford did. We wouldn't have a shot clock if he couldn't run the four corners offense as effectively as he did.

Well, sorta.

Ford finished his college career in 1978. The ACC got permission to experiment with a shot clock and 3-point shot in 1983. Remember that 17-9, 3-point shot? Mark Price, Terry Gannon and Chip Engelland sure do.

The death knell for the traditional four corners was the 1982 ACC Tournament title game between North Carolina (Worthy, Perkins, Jordan) and Virginia (Sampson). A national television audience watched some of the nation's best college players stand around and twiddle their thumbs for much of the second half.

47-45. Enough was enough.

I know it's easy to demonize Dean Smith on this. But his teams were just better at it. Smith wasn't behind the 12-10 game that Duke lost to State in 1968.

I remember K's first Duke team going over to Reynolds, spreading the court and beating Valvano's first State team 56-47. State returned the favor later that season, 52-51. Duke beat Georgia Tech 47-46 the next season in Cameron, beat State 49-48, beat Clemson 50-44.

Duke lost at home to Maryland that year 40-36, an abomination that I consider the worst basketball game ever played in Cameron, maybe anywhere.

So, we're talking about Mike Krzyzewski, Jim Valvano, Bobby Cremins and Lefty Driesell. Duke had four ACC games in 1982 in which fewer than 100 total points were scored.

So, it was something that was all over the place and something that had to be fixed.

And it was. I don't know anyone who would go back to the old days. But don't blame Ford. He did what he was asked, when it was legal and did it with extraordinary efficiency. But he didn't start it and he didn't end it.

ricks68
06-02-2012, 01:19 PM
Well, sorta.

Ford finished his college career in 1978. The ACC got permission to experiment with a shot clock and 3-point shot in 1983. Remember that 17-9, 3-point shot? Mark Price, Terry Gannon and Chip Engelland sure do.

The death knell for the traditional four corners was the 1982 ACC Tournament title game between North Carolina (Worthy, Perkins, Jordan) and Virginia (Sampson). A national television audience watched some of the nation's best college players stand around and twiddle their thumbs for much of the second half.

47-45. Enough was enough.

I know it's easy to demonize Dean Smith on this. But his teams were just better at it. Smith wasn't behind the 12-10 game that Duke lost to State in 1968.

I remember K's first Duke team going over to Reynolds, spreading the court and beating Valvano's first State team 56-47. State returned the favor later that season, 52-51. Duke beat Georgia Tech 47-46 the next season in Cameron, beat State 49-48, beat Clemson 50-44.

Duke lost at home to Maryland that year 40-36, an abomination that I consider the worst basketball game ever played in Cameron, maybe anywhere.

So, we're talking about Mike Krzyzewski, Jim Valvano, Bobby Cremins and Lefty Driesell. Duke had four ACC games in 1982 in which fewer than 100 total points were scored.

So, it was something that was all over the place and something that had to be fixed.

And it was. I don't know anyone who would go back to the old days. But don't blame Ford. He did what he was asked, when it was legal and did it with extraordinary efficiency. But he didn't start it and he didn't end it.

Jim, you think that Maryland game was worse than listening on the radio to the State 12-10 loss that knocked us out of going to the NCAA tournament that year? I remember just going nuts listening to that game.:mad:

ricks

jimsumner
06-02-2012, 02:02 PM
Jim, you think that Maryland game was worse than listening on the radio to the State 12-10 loss that knocked us out of going to the NCAA tournament that year? I remember just going nuts listening to that game.:mad:

ricks

Well, the 12-10 game wasn't in Cameron.

The problem with the 40-36 game was that iit was boring and horribly played, on both ends. Lefty basically apologized for winning.

Speaking of rules changes, it's usually the big guys who force the rules changes. George Mikan, Bob Kurland, Russell, Wilt, Alcindor. Goal-tending, basket inteference, 3-second lane, dunking.

But the ban on dunking sure slowed down Alcindor. :)

It also deprived us of watching David Thompson dunk for three seasons. GRRR!!

wsb3
06-02-2012, 03:41 PM
Well, sorta.



I know it's easy to demonize Dean Smith on this. But his teams were just better at it. Smith wasn't behind the 12-10 game that Duke lost to State in 1968.

But Dean was behind the 66 game. That barn burner of a game Duke 21 UNC 20. I believe Mike Lewis hit a free throw to win that one.

ricks68
06-02-2012, 06:13 PM
But Dean was behind the 66 game. That barn burner of a game Duke 21 UNC 20. I believe Mike Lewis hit a free throw to win that one.

I think Verga was the leading scorer with 7 points.

ricks

ThePublisher
06-02-2012, 06:31 PM
Recently, Kyrie, Nolan and Kyle is hard to beat... Crazy explosive, all good shooters, incredibly versatile...

jimsumner
06-02-2012, 09:08 PM
Recently, Kyrie, Nolan and Kyle is hard to beat... Crazy explosive, all good shooters, incredibly versatile...

With all due respect, I can't consider a 6-8 small forward as part of the backcourt.

Duke had five recruited guards in 2011. Singler wasn't one of them.

OldPhiKap
06-02-2012, 10:00 PM
With all due respect, I can't consider a 6-8 small forward as part of the backcourt.

Duke had five recruited guards in 2011. Singler wasn't one of them.

Stop covering for K, Jim. Everyone knows that Duke doesn't have any big men. Four guards and a screener.

Doctor Mu
06-03-2012, 12:00 AM
The three headed monster of Deron Williams Dee Brown and Luther Head for the Illini in '05 were effective if we consider the Duhon, Ewing, JJ 3-guard model.

I liked the short-lived combo of Johnny Harrell and Jim Spanarkel back on the '78 FF team. Shame Johnny got lost in the shuffle with Bender as PG the following year.

...and oh what an 8 games was the Irving/Nolan combo. They needed just another game or two to find the chemistry once Kyrie returned.


Jordan and Kenny Smith weren't too shabby. Smith was injured against Indiana halting a potential NC run, but not before they lost to Duke in the ACC Semis, one of the landmark games in Duke basketball history.

The leaves Hurley + T Hill and Dawkins + Amaker as my top 2 fav Duke backcourts. Those mid 80s teams had a high motor and potent offense.

I almost want to include Danny Ferry with Quin Snyder in the '87-'89 backcourt. What a complete player in college. Tremendous passer with keen instincts.

Olympic Fan
06-03-2012, 01:59 AM
Jordan and Kenny Smith weren't too shabby. Smith was injured against Indiana halting a potential NC run, but not before they lost to Duke in the ACC Semis, one of the landmark games in Duke basketball history.


Actually, Kenny Smith was injured long before that Indiana game -- he was hurt Jan. 29, 1984 in a 90-79 victory over No. 10 ranked LSU. UNC was 16-0 and ranked No. 1 in the nation coming into that game. There are those -- including myself -- who consider that as the best ACC team ever (right up there with '74 State and '99 Duke) -- starting senior Sam Perkins (two time concensus first-team All-America), junior Michael Jordan (the national player of the year), sophomore Brad Daugherty (late a first-team A-A and the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft), senior Matt Doherty and freshman Kenny Smith (later a first team A-A). Off the bench, they had future pros Joe Wolf and two pretty good college guards, Steve Hale and Buzz Peterson.

Before the LSU game, they really weren't tested. Virginia (which would wind up in the Final Four in that first post-Sampson year) played them fairly close in Chapel Hill and a young Dukie team took them to the final minute before losing 78-73 in Cameron (the famous "Double Standard" game). Against LSU, UNC was rolling to a 17th straight easy when when Smith was tackled from behind on a breakaway by LSU guard John Tudor. He suffered a broken wrist.

Smith was sidelined for a month. Steve Hale took his place in the starting lineup and did well. They got to 21-0 before suffering a one-point loss to No. 14 Arkansas on the road (actually in Pine Bluff). They got to 25-1 before Smith returned for the regular season finale against Duke, wearing a soft cast on his wrist.

He came off the bench in that game, which went into double OT before UNC pulled out the win in Carmichael. He moved back into the starting lineup for the ACC Tournament. UNC beat Clemson easily in the opener, but lost 77-75 to Duke in the semifinals.

UNC was still seeded No. 1 and after beating Temple in Charlotte, went to Atlanta and lost to Indiana in the Sweet 16. Smith averaged 33 minutes a game over the four postseason games. I agree that he wasn't as sharp as he was before the LSU injury ... in a real sense, the story of UNC's 1984 season was a lot like Duke's 2011 year -- the star freshman point guard returned for the NCAA Tournament, but it was too late to recapture the rythm that the team had established before the injury.

As for UNC's loss to Indiana, the main culprit was Michael Jordan, who had a dismal game -- 13 opoints on six of 14 shooting, one rebound, one assist, four turnovers and five fouls. Dean Smith cometimes gets criticized for sitting Jordan for six minutes in the first half with two fouls, but he played most of the second half and was terrible before fouling out. A fairly mediocre player named Dan Dakish usually gets the credit for frustrating Jordan in his final college game.

MChambers
06-03-2012, 09:22 AM
As for UNC's loss to Indiana, the main culprit was Michael Jordan, who had a dismal game -- 13 opoints on six of 14 shooting, one rebound, one assist, four turnovers and five fouls. Dean Smith cometimes gets criticized for sitting Jordan for six minutes in the first half with two fouls, but he played most of the second half and was terrible before fouling out. A fairly mediocre player named Dan Dakish usually gets the credit for frustrating Jordan in his final college game.

I'm sorry, but you must be wrong. Don't you know that Jordan was the best clutch player of all time? :-)

oldnavy
06-03-2012, 09:34 AM
Tough call. Dawkins and Amaker or JWill and Duhon. In a pick up game I'd let you chose first and I'd go with the left over pair, it's that close in my mind.

Phil Ford, wow! Talk about bad memories. As a kid I couldn't stand him, mostly because he beat my team so often and was so darn good. As an adult, I totally respect his talent and have no ill feelings whatsoever.

Bob Verga... I do not really remember him, but I do remember my father speaking about him as one of the best he had seen and he had seen them all upto that point so I will defer to those who actually watched him play. He no doubt was one of the best.

To me, personally, and I have had this argument many, many times with folks. Bobby Hurley was the best point guard to play in the ACC and maybe even the NCAA. I base that on two things, his assist record and TWO national championships. He was the quarterback of those teams, and of course he was surrounded by GREAT talent, but he was a killer. Not trying to covert anyone who disagrees because this is just my personal opinion and I very well may be off base, but I'd take Hurley as my PG in any ACC talent pick up game.....

There are more talented PG's.. even at Duke (JWill, Avery?, certainly Irving, Dawkins....) but Hurley has that spot in my heart... may be that shot he hit against UNLV in 91'....

gus
06-03-2012, 10:44 AM
There are more talented PG's.. even at Duke (JWill, Avery?, certainly Irving, Dawkins....) but Hurley has that spot in my heart... may be that shot he hit against UNLV in 91'....

Hurley wasn't just great because of his fire and the talent around him. He was great.

Amazing defender, brilliant and accurate passer, and could penetrate with the best. There is no way Avery should be on a list of "more talented PG's". And that's not meant to disrespect Avery. But Hurley was amazing.

jimsumner
06-03-2012, 01:17 PM
I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.

oldnavy
06-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Hurley wasn't just great because of his fire and the talent around him. He was great.

Amazing defender, brilliant and accurate passer, and could penetrate with the best. There is no way Avery should be on a list of "more talented PG's". And that's not meant to disrespect Avery. But Hurley was amazing.

HEY! I don't disagree with you, I was just throwing names out there that others have mentioned when I had these discussions.

oldnavy
06-03-2012, 01:21 PM
I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.

Jim, I hear ya! But you are thinking with your head, I am thinking with my heart.... I'm telling you that shot he hit against UNLV.... well just say I will never forget where I was, who I was with, and what I did when it went down....

jimsumner
06-03-2012, 02:02 PM
Jim, I hear ya! But you are thinking with your head, I am thinking with my heart.... I'm telling you that shot he hit against UNLV.... well just say I will never forget where I was, who I was with, and what I did when it went down....

Now, now. This is a family site. :)

oldnavy
06-03-2012, 02:57 PM
Now, now. This is a family site. :)

Well, I must admit to a slight "man crush" on Bobby Hurley. But you know I'm sure as well as many of us, that he (that team) ended what was it 8? trips to the FF w/o a NC??? How can you not have a special place in your heart for your "first" NC???? ;)

turnandburn55
06-05-2012, 10:24 PM
I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.

As someone who is too young to have seen Phil Ford's career, that's an eyebrow-raising comparison. Out of curiosity, where would you fit in Jay-Dubs at the height of his powers? Just his pure god-given ankle-breaking ability makes for a hell of an X-factor...

Olympic Fan
06-06-2012, 02:15 AM
As someone who is too young to have seen Phil Ford's career, that's an eyebrow-raising comparison. Out of curiosity, where would you fit in Jay-Dubs at the height of his powers? Just his pure god-given ankle-breaking ability makes for a hell of an X-factor...

Allow me to second Jim's points about the evolution of assists ...

The ACC and NCAA didn't begin keeping assists until 1973. Before that, there were sporadic counts -- we know Dick Groat's assist totals because a young Bill Brill kept them. But it's meaingless to say Groat led the nation in assists because most schools didn't keep assists for most games. The ACC did keep assists for ACC Tournament games in the early days, but not regular season games.

When assists started being kept in the mid-1970s, there was wide variation on the intepretation as to what is an assist. Today, almost any pass that is followed by a basket is an assist. Chris Corchiani racked up a lot of his assists by merely throwing the ball to Rodney Monroe, who made a jump shot. That wasn't not an assist anywhere in the ACC in the mid-1970s. Greg Paulus led he ACC in assists as a freshman in 2006 -- many of his assists coming on passes to JJ Redick, who would then nail a 3. Agan, not an assist in the mid-70s.

The first school to approach the modern interpretation of assists was Clemson, where SID Bob Bradley was the ACC's chief statitician (he kept the official scorebook for every ACC Tournament game not involving Clemson until the 1980s). The last place to loosen up was Virginia, where for years, statistician Doyle Smith was notorious for awarding just three or four assists game. Doyle didn't really loosen up until John Crotty came around at he end of the 1980s.

In that context, Phil Ford's 753 career assists between 1975-78 are a monumental total. He still ranks 11th in ACC history even though he is the only guy in the top 25 who played before 1980. He's 12th in ACC history in career points scored -- the highest rank of any true point guard. He was ACC Tournament MVP as a freshman (when UNC had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA Tournament) and was ACC player of the year as a senior. In between, he was three-time first-team All-ACC. I can't think of another ACC PG who cn match that accomplishment. Oh, he was the starting point guard on the 1976 Olympic Gold Medal team.

Ford is also the only true ACC point guard to be consensus naional player of the year. He's one of two ACC point guards to be two-time consensus first team All-American (along with John Lucas and it could be argued that Lucas gave up the PG job to Brad Davis in 1975). I realize that Jason Williams is a special case, since he shared the point with Chris Duhon at the end of the 2001 season and for all of 2002 (when Jason was natonal player of the year).

I would pick Ford over Hurley, Lucas, Jason Wlliams and maybe Kenny Anderson (he was great for two years) as the ACC's greatest point guard.

oldnavy
06-06-2012, 06:22 AM
Allow me to second Jim's points about the evolution of assists ...

The ACC and NCAA didn't begin keeping assists until 1973. Before that, there were sporadic counts -- we know Dick Groat's assist totals because a young Bill Brill kept them. But it's meaingless to say Groat led the nation in assists because most schools didn't keep assists for most games. The ACC did keep assists for ACC Tournament games in the early days, but not regular season games.

When assists started being kept in the mid-1970s, there was wide variation on the intepretation as to what is an assist. Today, almost any pass that is followed by a basket is an assist. Chris Corchiani racked up a lot of his assists by merely throwing the ball to Rodney Monroe, who made a jump shot. That wasn't not an assist anywhere in the ACC in the mid-1970s. Greg Paulus led he ACC in assists as a freshman in 2006 -- many of his assists coming on passes to JJ Redick, who would then nail a 3. Agan, not an assist in the mid-70s.

The first school to approach the modern interpretation of assists was Clemson, where SID Bob Bradley was the ACC's chief statitician (he kept the official scorebook for every ACC Tournament game not involving Clemson until the 1980s). The last place to loosen up was Virginia, where for years, statistician Doyle Smith was notorious for awarding just three or four assists game. Doyle didn't really loosen up until John Crotty came around at he end of the 1980s.

In that context, Phil Ford's 753 career assists between 1975-78 are a monumental total. He still ranks 11th in ACC history even though he is the only guy in the top 25 who played before 1980. He's 12th in ACC history in career points scored -- the highest rank of any true point guard. He was ACC Tournament MVP as a freshman (when UNC had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA Tournament) and was ACC player of the year as a senior. In between, he was three-time first-team All-ACC. I can't think of another ACC PG who cn match that accomplishment. Oh, he was the starting point guard on the 1976 Olympic Gold Medal team.

Ford is also the only true ACC point guard to be consensus naional player of the year. He's one of two ACC point guards to be two-time consensus first team All-American (along with John Lucas and it could be argued that Lucas gave up the PG job to Brad Davis in 1975). I realize that Jason Williams is a special case, since he shared the point with Chris Duhon at the end of the 2001 season and for all of 2002 (when Jason was natonal player of the year).

I would pick Ford over Hurley, Lucas, Jason Wlliams and maybe Kenny Anderson (he was great for two years) as the ACC's greatest point guard.

And you and Jim are right. BTW, I am amazed and awed with Jim's and your BB knowledge, thanks so much for sharing on the board, it makes this board infinitely better.

I just think that Bobby's will, drive and toughness along with two NC's and assits (however you both make great points about the difference in how they were measured) make him the top IMHO.... again, this is one of those questions where there is going to be a lot of subjection involved. One quick point is that I think you have to consider it has been 20 years since he set that assist record and it still stands... of course a lot of great PG's left early, but BH can't help that. Comparing players from different eras will always be an apple oranges thing due to the evolution of the game.

Bobby Hurley to ME (again not trying to convert anyone) was the best for the reasons I stated and the fact that (I never shy away from my bias because it is there and I must acknowledge it) he wore a Duke uniform. However I will conceed that there are players such as Ford who could be considered better PG's with very solid reasoning. I often think I may be confusing "favorite" with "best", but I really do think he was the "best" given the accomplishments he achieved. I actually think my favorite Duke PG was JWill. Ford was a beast, and almost unstopable during his time. He ran the four corners to perfection which is one reason that as a kid I loathed him... but he was truely amazing. Heaven's I hated the four corners... take the GOOD LORD that they put in a shot clock.

jv001
06-06-2012, 01:28 PM
I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

I love Bobby Hurley.

But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.

Ford also played in an era that palming/carrying the ball was a turnover. Not in today's game. But if I remember correctly Bobby Hurley did not use today's method to cross over like the kids today. GoDuke!

gwlaw99
06-06-2012, 06:17 PM
I would love to have seen a Hurley/Williams back court or an Irving/Williams back court.

wsb3
06-06-2012, 07:26 PM
I would pick Ford over Hurley, Lucas, Jason Wlliams and maybe Kenny Anderson (he was great for two years) as the ACC's greatest point guard.

I have never wavered in my belief that Phil Ford is the best ACC point guard I have seen. Now in the day of early departures I just don't see my opinion (for what that is worth) ever changing. His consistent play over four years and his ability to control and dominate a game set him apart. He averaged over 50% from the floor all four years. I never respected a UNC player more.

oldnavy
06-08-2012, 06:44 AM
OK, I have stated the Phil Ford was one of (maybe the) greatest if thinking with your head vice heart (as I have confessed to doint) point guards to play.

But, it is almost an apple oranges type of argument simple because of the shot clock. Ford never had to "push" the game (with the exception of end of half/game clock). He would have been great with a shot clock because he was a phenominal talent, but let's not overlook the difference having 35 seconds to get it done vice in some cases several minutes to make a play and how that "might" have affected his ability....

Plus, did I mention that Bobby Hurley hit the most pressure packed 3 pointers in Duke history and lead Duke to BTB NC's?? :)

jimsumner
06-08-2012, 10:10 AM
OK, I have stated the Phil Ford was one of (maybe the) greatest if thinking with your head vice heart (as I have confessed to doint) point guards to play.

But, it is almost an apple oranges type of argument simple because of the shot clock. Ford never had to "push" the game (with the exception of end of half/game clock). He would have been great with a shot clock because he was a phenominal talent, but let's not overlook the difference having 35 seconds to get it done vice in some cases several minutes to make a play and how that "might" have affected his ability....

Plus, did I mention that Bobby Hurley hit the most pressure packed 3 pointers in Duke history and lead Duke to BTB NC's?? :)

Before his alcoholism got the better of him, Ford proved quite adept with the NBA's 24-second shot clock.

So, I don't think a college shot clock would have inhibited his ability to get it done at the collegiate level.

Bob Green
06-08-2012, 08:17 PM
A fairly mediocre player named Dan Dakish usually gets the credit for frustrating Jordan in his final college game.

I read somewhere that after Coach Knight told Dakich he "earned" the assignment of guarding Jordan, Dakich went back to his room and threw up.

oldnavy
06-09-2012, 09:19 AM
Before his alcoholism got the better of him, Ford proved quite adept with the NBA's 24-second shot clock.

So, I don't think a college shot clock would have inhibited his ability to get it done at the collegiate level.

Jim, you’re killing me here man, come on, enough with the facts.... let me have my man crush on Bobby Hurley already!! Hey, did I mention that Bobby hit that big shot against UNLV that lead to our first NC??? I mean come on man... If there ever was a time that I would have kissed another man on the lips it would have been at that second right then and there! Oh crap, did I say that out loud?

Ok, I know, TMI, TMI, but OH, what a shot and what a feeling to see that kid have the guts to take it.... BY FAR my favorite single Duke play of all time..... "The shot" against UK is a close second, but hey we had already banked a NC by that time, Life was good after living with the Duke teams of the early seventies until we finally got that first (btw do we still hold the record for the most trips to a FF without a NC?) we did at one time...

I'll give up on pointing out factors that favor Hurley; it is obvious that you will just keep shooting me down with your inexhaustible basketball knowledge. In a court room with twelve unbiased jurors you would win the case, although I think we might be able to get some jury deliberation time.... but in my mind, BH was and always will be the best..... BTW I hardly ever convince anyone with my argument anyway…

jimsumner
06-09-2012, 10:48 AM
Jim, you’re killing me here man, come on, enough with the facts.... let me have my man crush on Bobby Hurley already!! Hey, did I mention that Bobby hit that big shot against UNLV that lead to our first NC??? I mean come on man... If there ever was a time that I would have kissed another man on the lips it would have been at that second right then and there! Oh crap, did I say that out loud?

Ok, I know, TMI, TMI, but OH, what a shot and what a feeling to see that kid have the guts to take it.... BY FAR my favorite single Duke play of all time..... "The shot" against UK is a close second, but hey we had already banked a NC by that time, Life was good after living with the Duke teams of the early seventies until we finally got that first (btw do we still hold the record for the most trips to a FF without a NC?) we did at one time...

I'll give up on pointing out factors that favor Hurley; it is obvious that you will just keep shooting me down with your inexhaustible basketball knowledge. In a court room with twelve unbiased jurors you would win the case, although I think we might be able to get some jury deliberation time.... but in my mind, BH was and always will be the best..... BTW I hardly ever convince anyone with my argument anyway…

I talked to Hurley about that shot for an article. He told me it was the "purest" shot he ever took and he knew it was good the second it left his hand.

But nobody remembers the 3-point play Brian Davis made shortly afterwards, driving the baseline, hitting the banker, drawing the foul and making the freebie. A huge shot and from a role player, not a star.

oldnavy
06-09-2012, 03:19 PM
I talked to Hurley about that shot for an article. He told me it was the "purest" shot he ever took and he knew it was good the second it left his hand.

But nobody remembers the 3-point play Brian Davis made shortly afterwards, driving the baseline, hitting the banker, drawing the foul and making the freebie. A huge shot and from a role player, not a star.

It was just a great game full of great moments wasn't it! The look on UNLV's collective faces was priceless... they had not been in that situation before and it showed...

wsb3
06-11-2012, 07:00 PM
I talked to Hurley about that shot for an article. He told me it was the "purest" shot he ever took and he knew it was good the second it left his hand.

But nobody remembers the 3-point play Brian Davis made shortly afterwards, driving the baseline, hitting the banker, drawing the foul and making the freebie. A huge shot and from a role player, not a star.

I remember the 3-point play by Brian Davis. Even the expression after he scored and the foul was called.He played huge in that Final Four.

Bob Green
06-11-2012, 07:40 PM
This is a tough question. My first instinct is Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker so I'll go with it.

Edouble
06-12-2012, 03:29 AM
If I can choose any two guys that played on the same team as my Duke backcourt, I'll take Jdub and Dunleavy from 01/02. I personally thought those two were 1A and 1B, the best players in the country that season. The draft that year reflected such sentiments. Might have some defensive liabilities with Mike guarding the two spot, but since they would score pretty much every time, who cares?

jimsumner
06-12-2012, 02:00 PM
If I can choose any two guys that played on the same team as my Duke backcourt, I'll take Jdub and Dunleavy from 01/02. I personally thought those two were 1A and 1B, the best players in the country that season. The draft that year reflected such sentiments. Might have some defensive liabilities with Mike guarding the two spot, but since they would score pretty much every time, who cares?

Dunleavy played small forward in 2001 and power forward in 2002. So, that's a pretty broad definition of backcourt.

Edouble
06-13-2012, 02:55 AM
Dunleavy played small forward in 2001 and power forward in 2002. So, that's a pretty broad definition of backcourt.

Really? I wrote, if I could choose any two guys for my backcourt, that's who I would choose. I am not sure how to more effectively communicate my meaning. If I had my choice of any two guys from any one year to build a backcourt, those are my selections. It gets mentioned on this board at least 78 times/month that Duke doesn't have positions.

We all know Mike had the skillset of a guard. He could bring the ball up court, drive, move in transition, shoot 3's. We all remember his freshman year when his versatility was so valuable and he certainly played like a guard that year.

I can't believe I really have to explain this choice. He came up as a guard, and was only moved to forward when he grew out of the gym. He was cleary out of position at power forward. I recall him getting destroyed by Chris Wilcox.

It's not like I'm picking Greg Newton and Carmen Wallace as my all time backcourt here. I think this is a reasonable selection.

jimsumner
06-13-2012, 09:40 AM
Really? I wrote, if I could choose any two guys for my backcourt, that's who I would choose. I am not sure how to more effectively communicate my meaning. If I had my choice of any two guys from any one year to build a backcourt, those are my selections. It gets mentioned on this board at least 78 times/month that Duke doesn't have positions.

We all know Mike had the skillset of a guard. He could bring the ball up court, drive, move in transition, shoot 3's. We all remember his freshman year when his versatility was so valuable and he certainly played like a guard that year.

I can't believe I really have to explain this choice. He came up as a guard, and was only moved to forward when he grew out of the gym. He was cleary out of position at power forward. I recall him getting destroyed by Chris Wilcox.

It's not like I'm picking Greg Newton and Carmen Wallace as my all time backcourt here. I think this is a reasonable selection.

Hey, you're entitled to put a forward at guard.

I'm entitled to point out that you put a forward at guard.

FWIW, Shane Battier played some guard in the NBA. Wouldn't Williams and Battier qualify? Grant Hill played some guard at Duke. So, why not go with Hurley and Grant Hill as Duke's best backcourt?

Call me a hide-bound old fogey, but I feel that Duke's best backcourt should probably consist of guys who actually played backcourt at Duke. Not hypotheticals based on what could have happened.

And, btw, the year that Mike Dunleavy was out of position at power forward is the year he averged 17.3 points, 7.2rebounds per game, led Duke in blocked shots, made first-team All-ACC and second-team All-America.

Duke and Maryland split that season, Duke winning by 21, Maryland winning by 14. In the Duke win, Dunleavy had 21 points and nine rebounds. So, I could just as easily recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox.

Mike Corey
06-13-2012, 10:01 AM
1) Never get involved in a land war in Asia;
2) Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line;
3) Never dispute Jim Sumner about Duke basketball.

~

I don't know who Duke's "best" backcourt would be, but from the duos I was able to watch, my favorite was Jason Williams and Chris Duhon. They had chemistry off the court and on; they posed an incredibly difficult matchup for defenses, and helped Duke's offense click in what was an almost unfairly talented compilation of talent.

-jk
06-13-2012, 10:07 AM
How 'bout Grant and Ferry in the back court (they both handled the ball a lot and were good passers)? And Cwell and Bricky inside, of course. I'm not sure who should round out that inverted team, though.

-jk

gus
06-13-2012, 10:08 AM
How 'bout Grant and Ferry in the back court (they both handled the ball a lot and were good passers)? And Cwell and Bricky inside, of course. I'm not sure who should round out that inverted team, though.

-jk

Our big man coach in the pivot, of course.

devildeac
06-13-2012, 10:34 AM
How 'bout Grant and Ferry in the back court (they both handled the ball a lot and were good passers)? And Cwell and Bricky inside, of course. I'm not sure who should round out that inverted team, though.

-jk

I'd go with McRoberts. Good rebounder, shot blocker/defender on the inside. Good passer/ball handler used to break opponents' presses on the perimeter. Perhaps not a perfect choice but if -jk is going to put Grant and Ferry in his back court and Cwell and Brickey up front, then I'm going to put Josh all over the court as my press-breaker/distributor/intimidator. Guess DeMarcus could handle this role as well :D .

jimsumner
06-13-2012, 10:43 AM
I'd go with McRoberts. Good rebounder, shot blocker/defender on the inside. Good passer/ball handler used to break opponents' presses on the perimeter. Perhaps not a perfect choice but if -jk is going to put Grant and Ferry in his back court and Cwell and Brickey up front, then I'm going to put Josh all over the court as my press-breaker/distributor/intimidator. Guess DeMarcus could handle this role as well :D .

Danny Ferry actually led Duke in assists for a season and that was Amaker's senior season.

If we use played-some-guard-at-Duke as a starting point, then Billy King, Brian Davis, Grant Hill, Carmen Wallace and Chris Carrawell become part of the pool.

Dahntay Jones shut down Juan Dixon in that 2002 win and Dixon was a guard. Do we add Jones? Lance Thomas sometimes guarded guards. Mark Alarie and Kyle Singler played guard at Duke for at least a few minutes.

If we use had-a-guard-skill set, we can add Ferry, McRoberts and Gene Banks.

If we add played-some-guard-in-the-pros, then Battier and Tony Lang become Duke backcourt players, as does Jones.

Thus, our range of possibilities for best Duke backcourt now includes Jim Spanarkel-Gene Banks, Johnny Dawkins-Danny Ferry, Bobby Hurley-Grant Hill and my favorite, Chris Carrawell and Shane Battier.

Jderf
06-13-2012, 10:59 AM
Perhaps we need to stop pretending as though "best historical backcourt" and "best possible backcourt" are the same thing.

A similar statement could be made for the All-Time ACC thread as well.

devildeac
06-13-2012, 12:25 PM
Danny Ferry actually led Duke in assists for a season and that was Amaker's senior season.

If we use played-some-guard-at-Duke as a starting point, then Billy King, Brian Davis, Grant Hill, Carmen Wallace and Chris Carrawell become part of the pool.

Dahntay Jones shut down Juan Dixon in that 2002 win and Dixon was a guard. Do we add Jones? Lance Thomas sometimes guarded guards. Mark Alarie and Kyle Singler played guard at Duke for at least a few minutes.

If we use had-a-guard-skill set, we can add Ferry, McRoberts and Gene Banks.

If we add played-some-guard-in-the-pros, then Battier and Tony Lang become Duke backcourt players, as does Jones.

Thus, our range of possibilities for best Duke backcourt now includes Jim Spanarkel-Gene Banks, Johnny Dawkins-Danny Ferry, Bobby Hurley-Grant Hill and my favorite, Chris Carrawell and Shane Battier.
Could we work Nate James into your back court rotation, too ;) ?

(And, if your answer is "no," then I'm going to let YOU tell him that :D .)

jimsumner
06-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Could we work Nate James into your back court rotation, too ;) ?

(And, if your answer is "no," then I'm going to let YOU tell him that :D .)

Nate actually was the nominal "2" in 2000 and 2001.

msdukie
06-13-2012, 04:09 PM
Patrick Davidson

Verga3
06-13-2012, 06:26 PM
This is a tough question. My first instinct is Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker so I'll go with it.

I'll second.

OldPhiKap
06-13-2012, 06:45 PM
I'll second.

Certainly my favorite.

ricks68
06-13-2012, 09:33 PM
My final vote goes along with Olympic Fan's analysis.

ricks

Which is, of course, Dawkins and Amaker-------but since other posters are now mixing it up, and since players that were listed as F/G are being included------how can you guys that have modified the original theme of the thread not even mentioned Heyman or Mullins? I mean, you whippersnappers use Wikipedia for just about everything else, why not look up the greatest Duke players of all time and learn about them? Or, even use a reliable source like GoDuke.com?:p

ricks

sagegrouse
06-13-2012, 10:09 PM
Which is, of course, Dawkins and Amaker-------but since other posters are now mixing it up, and since players that were listed as F/G are being included------how can you guys that have modified the original theme of the thread not even mentioned Heyman or Mullins? I mean, you whippersnappers use Wikipedia for just about everything else, why not look up the greatest Duke players of all time and learn about them? Or, even use a reliable source like GoDuke.com?:p

ricks

Both Heyman and Mullins were forwards, although in close games Artie would bring the ball up the court -- immediately putting fear in the heart of the 5-11 guard picking him up. He knew in his heart that Artie wuz gonna drive.

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
06-13-2012, 10:13 PM
If Brian Zoubek and Marty Nessley could dribble, pass, and shoot the outside shot, they'd be my favorite backcourt.

Absent that, Johnny and Tommy.

Newton_14
06-13-2012, 10:16 PM
In fairness to Edouble, he clearly was speaking hypothetically, and Mike Dunleavy was recruited as a SG, but as he mentioned, the growth spurt turned him into a 3/4 Wing Forward before he stepped foot on campus. He still had great guard skills though.

In fairness to Jim, for this topic, choosing guys that played the point and true 2 guard keeps everyone on a level playing field.

So, let peace and harmony rule the day! :)

UrinalCake
06-13-2012, 10:22 PM
Perhaps we need to stop pretending as though "best historical backcourt" and "best possible backcourt" are the same thing.

If we're going to open up the discussion to mixing and matching any two players, regardless of whether they played together in real life, then I've got to take Redick as my SG. Pair him with any one of Irving, Jason Williams, Hurley, Dawkins, etc. and you've got a matchup nightmare.

-jk
06-13-2012, 10:58 PM
My nomination of Ferry and Hill was only partially tongue-in-cheek. Both were legitimate ball handlers and assist men who could hit outside shots. And Cwell and Bricky both spent time in the post. Solid examples of K's willingness - desire, even - to mix up positions for advantage or need.

Anyway, using any reasonable, historically accurate methodology, I do think I'd have to go with Dawkins and Amaker.

-jk

ricks68
06-13-2012, 11:35 PM
Both Heyman and Mullins were forwards, although in close games Artie would bring the ball up the court -- immediately putting fear in the heart of the 5-11 guard picking him up. He knew in his heart that Artie wuz gonna drive.

sagegrouse

Yes, you are correct, they were forwards. I knew that. But, if you look them up on the GoDuke roster stats from the past, they are officially listed as F/G's. That would make them eligible.:)

ricks

jimsumner
06-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Yes, you are correct, they were forwards. I knew that. But, if you look them up on the GoDuke roster stats from the past, they are officially listed as F/G's. That would make them eligible.:)

ricks

This means that Vic Bubas was the first coach to use the four-guard system. It also means that Heyman was the best rebounding guard in Duke history.

jv001
06-14-2012, 07:30 PM
This means that Vic Bubas was the first coach to use the four-guard system. It also means that Heyman was the best rebounding guard in Duke history.

If I remember correctly, Heyman was great at rebounding his own missed shots. He was one tough player. GoDuke!

Edouble
06-15-2012, 02:23 AM
Hey, you're entitled to put a forward at guard.

I'm entitled to point out that you put a forward at guard.

FWIW, Shane Battier played some guard in the NBA. Wouldn't Williams and Battier qualify? Grant Hill played some guard at Duke. So, why not go with Hurley and Grant Hill as Duke's best backcourt?

Call me a hide-bound old fogey, but I feel that Duke's best backcourt should probably consist of guys who actually played backcourt at Duke. Not hypotheticals based on what could have happened.

And, btw, the year that Mike Dunleavy was out of position at power forward is the year he averged 17.3 points, 7.2rebounds per game, led Duke in blocked shots, made first-team All-ACC and second-team All-America.

Duke and Maryland split that season, Duke winning by 21, Maryland winning by 14. In the Duke win, Dunleavy had 21 points and nine rebounds. So, I could just as easily recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox.

I'm entitled to point out that Duke doesn't have positions.

Chris Wilcox, was a beast, but he was not an All-American calibre player. He was the 4th most important player on that Maryland team. Dunleavy was certainly not a power forward. He played out of position. Forget the stats for a minute and watch the game tape. Dunleavy was not equipped to handle Wilcox, plain and simple. It would be hard to recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox because it did not happen. Mike was a really big guard/swing forward that we pushed into post defense out of necessity.

I thought that Mike rivaled Jason Williams that year as the best player in the country, and yet he was not a first team All-American, as you point out. The fact that he was the second college player taken in the draft, but not among five college players named to the 1st team All-America points to the fact that he wasn't used as well as we could have used him, due to having to play out of position.

Battier would not qualify as a backcourt type of player because he did not have the guard abilities that Dunleavy had. Neither did Ferry. That is not something you can use stats to quantify. Dunleavy had spin moves, behind the back dribbles, etc. etc.... guard skills.

If you wanted to say that Hurley and Hill would be your best Duke back court, I would accept that argument. My idea is to put two players into the 1 (PG) and 2 (SG) spots and see who's duo is the scariest. Hurley is capable of playing the 1, and Grant Hill, who could play 4 or 5 positions, depending on who you ask, could definitely fill the 2 spot.

Edouble
06-15-2012, 02:34 AM
How 'bout Grant and Ferry in the back court (they both handled the ball a lot and were good passers)? And Cwell and Bricky inside, of course. I'm not sure who should round out that inverted team, though.

-jk

I get that you are making fun of me, but I'm not sure why. Obviously these players didn't even play together. Mike Dunleavy, who had all the skills of a guard, is a reasonable player to consider as a backcourt member. I clearly prefaced my post with a disclaimer. It gets very tiresome around here to be ridiculed if you are not one of about 10-12 posters that post 10+ times/day. Why not just have a private board for those people? Sorry, I have a life that does not involve becoming a "poster of note" on the site. I have too much else going on outside of this website.

Edouble
06-15-2012, 03:06 AM
3) Never dispute Jim Sumner about Duke basketball.


I would dispute Coach K about Duke basketball if I thought I had a valid point. If he wanted to recruit a 4'8" one armed point guard, I would say something to him if he were around.

Jim Sumner knows a lot about Duke basketball, but c'mon. The point of this site is discussion and yes, argument. If you can't dispute people, there is no point to any of this. No one here is a deity.

Dunleavy's versatility allowed the 99/00 team to hide a lot of weaknesses. Mike played a fair amount of guard in high school, and played a fair amount of guard in 99/00. We were so low on guards, we recruited Andre Buckner as insurance. Mike did stuff that guards do--handle the ball, shoot, drive. Yes Boozer did these things too sometimes. If you honestly want to argue that Dunleavy = Boozer when it comes to being a guard, because they both had frontcourt letters labeling their position on a stat sheet, then you don't know much about basketball.

Watch this and tell me that it is a stretch to call Mike Dunleavy a guard. Battier, Ferry, Carrawell, and even Deng didn't have this at Duke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM4yoO3RHKI

Dude had full guard skills at the forward position. Jim Sumner did not out-argue me. He simply said that he wanted to go with players that had actually played the "1" and "2" positions while they were Blue Devils. Well, we don't actually have a "2" position at Duke anyway, and if we did, Dunleavy certainly played it his freshman year.

I prefaced my post with a disclaimer saying that if I could choose two players from any team to construct a backcourt, I would choose the 01/02 versions of Jdub and Dunleavy. Sumner said he's old school and wants to go by the stat sheet position labels. He didn't conquer my dispute, he just said he didn't like my disclaimer.

But if you are saying I am foolish to dispute him because he brought up Battier? Mike is clearly skilled at guard in ways that Battier is not/never was. I get that just from having watched all of the games that both players played at Duke. There is no stat for that. Just opinion. You would be foolish to dispute that though, as you would end up looking pretty silly.

UrinalCake
06-15-2012, 10:55 AM
Watch this and tell me that it is a stretch to call Mike Dunleavy a guard. Battier, Ferry, Carrawell, and even Deng didn't have this at Duke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM4yoO3RHKI


That was one of my favorite Duke plays EVER. It's a shame it had to happen in such an inconsequential game. I remember after the game his father said something like "he must have learned that from his mother, because I couldn't do that."

I agree with your definition of Dunleavy as a forward with guard skills. Not too many straight-up forwards could hit three three-pointers in 90 seconds to put away a National Title. Good times...

jimsumner
06-15-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm entitled to point out that Duke doesn't have positions.

Chris Wilcox, was a beast, but he was not an All-American calibre player. He was the 4th most important player on that Maryland team. Dunleavy was certainly not a power forward. He played out of position. Forget the stats for a minute and watch the game tape. Dunleavy was not equipped to handle Wilcox, plain and simple. It would be hard to recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox because it did not happen. Mike was a really big guard/swing forward that we pushed into post defense out of necessity.

I thought that Mike rivaled Jason Williams that year as the best player in the country, and yet he was not a first team All-American, as you point out. The fact that he was the second college player taken in the draft, but not among five college players named to the 1st team All-America points to the fact that he wasn't used as well as we could have used him, due to having to play out of position.

Battier would not qualify as a backcourt type of player because he did not have the guard abilities that Dunleavy had. Neither did Ferry. That is not something you can use stats to quantify. Dunleavy had spin moves, behind the back dribbles, etc. etc.... guard skills.

If you wanted to say that Hurley and Hill would be your best Duke back court, I would accept that argument. My idea is to put two players into the 1 (PG) and 2 (SG) spots and see who's duo is the scariest. Hurley is capable of playing the 1, and Grant Hill, who could play 4 or 5 positions, depending on who you ask, could definitely fill the 2 spot.

You do realize that Duke played Maryland twice that season? At the risk of trying to quantify with stats, let's look at those games.

Duke won the first game 99-78. Dunleavy had 21 points and 9 rebounds. Wilcox had 14 points and 7 rebounds.

Maryland won the second game 87-73. Dunleavy had 15 points and 11 rebounds, Wilcox 23 points and 11 rebounds.

In the two games, Dunleavy had 36 points, 20 rebounds, Wilcox 37 points, 18 rebounds. Perhaps not the dominance you recall.

Wilcox was the eighth pick in the 2002 NBA draft. I'm sure how averaging 10 rebounds per game against the second college big man drafted that year supports your thesis that Dunleavy couldn't play the 4.

Could Dunleavy have been a top college guard? Probably. But he wasn't. You have every right to wander into a counter-factual wilderness but we have every right to point out that it is counter-factual. Mike Dunleavy didn't play guard at Duke after his freshman season and didn't play all that much as a freshman. Jeff Mullins spent a fruitful decade plus playing guard in the NBA, so he sure could have played guard at Duke. But he didn't. Hence, he isn't part of any rational Duke backcourt.

And of course Duke has positions, defined more fluidly than many other programs but positions nonetheless. Duke always has a ball-handler and Duke always has at least one post. I can't count the number of times I've heard Mike Krzyzewski use the traditional 1-5 nomenclature but it's a lot. The times he said something along the lines of we-don't have positions is shorthand for "I value flexibility and versatility and I try to put as much versatility on the floor as possible and try not to restrict the players by an artificial definition of what they should be able to do as a 4 or as a point or whatever."

That means Christian Laettner or Cherokee Parks can shoot three-pointers as centers. It doesn't mean they aren't centers, it means K doesn't restrict them to a narrow definition of their position. Danny Ferry may not have dribbled behind his back but his perimeter skills were pretty refined. Doesn't mean he was a guard. Josh McRoberts frequently brought the ball up court in 2007. Doesn't mean he was a guard, either.

Like Mike Dunleavy wasn't a guard.

mapei
06-15-2012, 10:24 PM
I don't have a problem with someone considering MD as a part-time backcourt player. He did meet the eyeball test as a "guard" at times, and seemed a little out of position as a forward on occasion. He was probably not a pure 3, but maybe a 2.75.

He's not making my best-ever backcourt, though, because that goes to Jason and Chris D. But I'll happliy acknowledge that Tommy and JD absolutely belong in that conversation.

If I have to pick best-ever point guard at Duke, though, it's Hurley by a mile. And JJ gets my best-ever shooting guard. Which is not to say that they would have played together effectively, just that each had very special talents at their positions, which is why their jerseys hang in the rafters.