Coach McNally resigns as head coach of Duke baseball team

[Mike Corey]

After seven seasons and just one ACC Tourney appearance, Duke alum and head baseball coach Sean McNally has resigned.


“I would like to thank Duke University and Duke Athletics for the amazing opportunity to have served as the head baseball coach at my alma mater for the last seven years. I am very proud of all that we have accomplished on the field, in the classroom, and in the community during my tenure. The effort to become a consistent winning baseball program in Atlantic Coast Conference play has been exhausting and the results have been disappointing. I am looking forward to spending more time with my family and seeking out a new professional challenge going forward. My biggest thank you goes to all of my players for their hard work and incredible effort. I will miss the daily interactions with the players and participating in their personal and athletic development the most.”


More information from GoDuke here (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205435150&DB_OEM_ID=4200).

[dukebsbll14]

I had the opportunity to learn and to play for Coach Mac at a camp in the summer of '08. I really liked the brand of baseball Coach Mac was promoting and the pitching and defense first mentality. If I remember correctly, in 2009, 3B Ryan McCurdy made one error all season: in the ACC tournament.

I remember back in 2009 when Duke was one win away from playing for the ACC Championship, there was a level of energy that was really fun to watch. They would show clips of the team waiting for the game to finish before them with their rally caps on (I believe they needed UNC who was playing before them to lose to have a chance of playing for the title). Things just never really took off from there. I'll attribute that to solid recruits/juniors being snatched up by the draft!

[chrishoke]

After seven seasons and just one NCAA appearance, Duke alum and head baseball coach Sean McNally has resigned.



More information from GoDuke here (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205435150&DB_OEM_ID=4200).

I don't believe Duke ever made the NCAA Tourny during his tenure.

[chrishoke]

I had the opportunity to learn and to play for Coach Mac at a camp in the summer of '08. I really liked the brand of baseball Coach Mac was promoting and the pitching and defense first mentality. If I remember correctly, in 2009, 3B Ryan McCurdy made one error all season: in the ACC tournament.

I remember back in 2009 when Duke was one win away from playing for the ACC Championship, there was a level of energy that was really fun to watch. They would show clips of the team waiting for the game to finish before them with their rally caps on (I believe they needed UNC who was playing before them to lose to have a chance of playing for the title). Things just never really took off from there. I'll attribute that to solid recruits/juniors being snatched up by the draft!

Agreed. I'm sorry it didn't work out for Sean - he is a class act and a good fit for Duke. But with that said, the last few years have been boo awful. A change needed to be made. Best of luck to Sean in all yor future endeavors.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I don't believe Duke ever made the NCAA Tourny during his tenure.
Yup, that should say ACC Tourney. They made it once a couple years ago.

[laxbluedevil]

Terry Rooney of UCF is ranked again, as is the coach at Dallas Baptist. ECU is 33rd. Plenty of coaches would be big improvements for Duke, just move down the NCAA rankings of good young coaches at non-BCS schools that improved bad programs. AD White better not hire another inexperienced or unproven guy who hasn't won big as a HC before.

[msdukie]

Terry Rooney of UCF is ranked again, as is the coach at Dallas Baptist. ECU is 33rd. Plenty of coaches would be big improvements for Duke, just move down the NCAA rankings of good young coaches at non-BCS schools that improved bad programs. AD White better not hire another inexperienced or unproven guy who hasn't won big as a HC before.

Yeah because Kevin White's last hire in baseball was so terrible.

[OldPhiKap]

Who has Kevin White hired?

Serious question. Cut was Aleva, I'm thinking that McCallie and Danowski were as well but not sure.

[Mike Corey]

Yup, that should say ACC Tourney. They made it once a couple years ago.

You're of course correct. I'm very sorry about that. #wishfulthinking

[DU82]

I think Coach McNally deserves credit for pulling Duke baseball out of the huge hole it was in. The hole may have been deeper than the one the football team was in. The program appears to be in much better shape than it was when he took over. No steriods et al, and at least competitive on the field.

I'm not surprised at the news, but sorry it didn't work out.

[Mike Corey]

Who has Kevin White hired?

Serious question. Cut was Aleva, I'm thinking that McCallie and Danowski were as well but not sure.

He just hired the new wrestling coach, and he has hired a field hockey coach (the former HC from Louisville).

There are probably others but I'm drawing a blank.

[laxbluedevil]

I didnt know Duke hired a new wrestling coach, I'm sure 99% of Dukies had no idea as well. But White just promoted an assistant from the Duke team that just finished 0-5 in the ACC, 3-10 overall. So the unfortunate Duke tradition of hiring cheap unproven coaches like Franks, Roof, and McNally is continuing. That should never happen with any Duke sport, even the least significant or successful. Just go down the list of NCAA rankings to find young coaches at non-BCS schools for which Duke would be a step up, not going to bother researching in depth since the position's been filled, but Cornell, Kent State, Lehigh, Binghamton, Edinboro, Hofstra, Old Dominion, are all ranked top 25 wrestling.

The new wrestling hire is almost as bad as replacing the #1 recruiter in the nation in womens basketball, Trisha Stafford Odom, who went to UNC to bring in the #1 recruiting class in the nation in the best recruiting day of all time, with someone who has zero coaching experience just because she played for Duke. So instead of landing the #1 player in the nation for 3 years straight, McCallie may be back to landing zero Mickey Ds again like in her first 20 years of coaching.

Duke baseball should look to the HC at UCF, Dallas Baptist, ECU, etc. Let's hope they dont hire Mcnally's assistant.

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

[roywhite]

I didnt know Duke hired a new wrestling coach, I'm sure 99% of Dukies had no idea as well. But White just promoted an assistant from the Duke team that just finished 0-5 in the ACC, 3-10 overall. So the unfortunate Duke tradition of hiring cheap unproven coaches like Franks, Roof, and McNally is continuing. That should never happen with any Duke sport, even the least significant or successful. Just go down the list of NCAA rankings to find young coaches at non-BCS schools for which Duke would be a step up, not going to bother researching in depth since the position's been filled, but Cornell, Kent State, Lehigh, Binghamton, Edinboro, Hofstra, Old Dominion, are all ranked top 25 wrestling.

The new wrestling hire is almost as bad as replacing the #1 recruiter in the nation in womens basketball, Trisha Stafford Odom, who went to UNC to bring in the #1 recruiting class in the nation in the best recruiting day of all time, with someone who has zero coaching experience just because she played for Duke. So instead of landing the #1 player in the nation for 3 years straight, McCallie may be back to landing zero Mickey Ds again like in her first 20 years of coaching.

Duke baseball should look to the HC at UCF, Dallas Baptist, ECU, etc. Let's hope they dont hire Mcnally's assistant.

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

You didn't follow wrestling, but you're sure the new coach is a bad hire?

Duke has a number of good coaches, and that certainly includes Joanne McCallie. Duke also has a number of very good teams who compete for ACC and national championships in a variety of sports. Scholarship funding continues to be a challenge for sports like wrestling and track, and is a consideration for whether to start a women's softball team.

All in all, I think Duke does a great job in athletics, and is trying hard to improve in sports like football and baseball. Sorry you're so unhappy with the state of affairs.

[A-Tex Devil]

Terry Rooney of UCF is ranked again, as is the coach at Dallas Baptist. ECU is 33rd. Plenty of coaches would be big improvements for Duke, just move down the NCAA rankings of good young coaches at non-BCS schools that improved bad programs. AD White better not hire another inexperienced or unproven guy who hasn't won big as a HC before.

This will sound outrageous, but why would you leave Dallas Baptist (for example) to coach Duke? I bet the pay isn't that much more. DBU has skins on the wall (Duke doesn't) and there are plenty of regional programs with better resources always looking to upgrade. Hell, if Augie doesn't make the tourney next year at UT, he is on the hot seat.

Duke Baseball is in the same position as Duke Football. It needs a grassroots, committed leader whose in game tactics can help mask the systematic deficiencies of the program. It is really hard to do in baseball. Maybe harder than football unless you have 2-3 MLB prospects on the staff. We had 1 to 2 this year.

[Steven43]

I didnt know Duke hired a new wrestling coach, I'm sure 99% of Dukies had no idea as well. But White just promoted an assistant from the Duke team that just finished 0-5 in the ACC, 3-10 overall. So the unfortunate Duke tradition of hiring cheap unproven coaches like Franks, Roof, and McNally is continuing. That should never happen with any Duke sport, even the least significant or successful. Just go down the list of NCAA rankings to find young coaches at non-BCS schools for which Duke would be a step up, not going to bother researching in depth since the position's been filled, but Cornell, Kent State, Lehigh, Binghamton, Edinboro, Hofstra, Old Dominion, are all ranked top 25 wrestling.

The new wrestling hire is almost as bad as replacing the #1 recruiter in the nation in womens basketball, Trisha Stafford Odom, who went to UNC to bring in the #1 recruiting class in the nation in the best recruiting day of all time, with someone who has zero coaching experience just because she played for Duke. So instead of landing the #1 player in the nation for 3 years straight, McCallie may be back to landing zero Mickey Ds again like in her first 20 years of coaching.

Duke baseball should look to the HC at UCF, Dallas Baptist, ECU, etc. Let's hope they dont hire Mcnally's assistant.

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

How did we let Trisha Stafford Odom get away, and to UNC of all places? Did we just not offer enough compensation? Kevin White is not looking very good right now.

[CameronBornAndBred]

How did we let Trisha Stafford Odom get away, and to UNC of all places? Did we just not offer enough compensation? Kevin White is not looking very good right now.
In her case I don't think it had anything to do about money, but about relationships. I doubt very much that KW played a part in her decision one way or the other. You can get some past insight here.
http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2011/08/25/trisha-stafford-odom-bolts-to-unc/

[msdukie]

Other cheap unproven coaches previously hired: Michael William Krzyzewski, Dan Brooks, Steven Orr Spurrier, Gail Goestenkors.

Once again, certain posters are running another thread totally.off the rails.

My point was that White never hired a baseball coach before yet there were complaints. I believe he has only hired Pam Bustin, O.D. Vincent and our new and apparently maligned above wrestling coach.

And an A.D. has very little involvement in the comings and goings of assistants.

P.S. I look forward to posters calling out White for allowing Wojo to be big man coach....sheesh....

[A-Tex Devil]

In her case I don't think it had anything to do about money, but about relationships. I doubt very much that KW played a part in her decision one way or the other. You can get some past insight here.
http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2011/08/25/trisha-stafford-odom-bolts-to-unc/

Yeah, it's hard for me to judge an AD based on who voluntarily leaves unless there is a clear public rift (a la Maryland).

To msduke's point, the coach that wil get Duke Baseball out of the doldrums will very likely be a young up and comer that will get an ambivalent response upon hire. While the power conferences still generally rule the roost, baseball is even flatter than basketball when it comes to mid majors and lower being able to compete for championships (Dallas Baptist, Cal St. Long Beach, etc.) Duke isn't going to get a manager from one of those programs unless it shells out cash that's just not allocated for those purposes. McNally was a smart gamble that didn't quite work out. I thought it was a good hire.

Duke is regionally situated to have success (unlike, say, a Big Ten or Northeast school). Our facilities aren't going to draw anyone in, so we'll just need to strike gold with personality, player development and strategy and tactics. (I know, easier said than done). This can happen in the unlikeliest of places (e.g. Rice), so I hold out hope it can happen at Duke.

[Inonehand]

Compare the stadiums below to Jack Coombs Field. Not included in the list are the beautiful parks within the ACC:

Rice's field (http://www.riceowls.com/facilities/reckling-park.html)
Dallas Baptist's field (http://dbupatriots.com/news/2012/5/27/Dallas_Baptist_Ballpark.aspx?path=baseball)
ECU 's stadium (http://www.ecupirates.com/facilities/ecu-facilities-basebl.html)
UCF's Stadium (http://www.ucfathletics.com/facilities/ucf-jay-bergman-field.html)
UNCW's field (http://www.uncwsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=19800&ATCLID=1252724)

When Sean McNally took this job, every applicant said that the baseball facilities needed a complete overhaul. Seven years ago. Many targets for the job wouldn't even consider the position because of the perceived lack of commitment to the sport of baseball at Duke.

Duke will be hard pressed to find a better teacher of the game or someone who cares more about the university.

Yes, football has been hard to bring up to par at Duke, and facilities are part of that. But consider this: every football player at Duke is on a full scholarship to one of the top schools in the country. Every one of them. 4 times the number of starters needed on Saturdays. Baseball programs are allowed 11.7 scholarships. There are 10 starters every game in college baseball (including a DH). And usually each team will use 2 to 3 pitchers in any one game. The next day they will use another 2 to 3 pitchers. The next day at least one additional pitcher. Now that a full ride at Duke costs close to $70k per year, a half scholarship (crudely the average per player) means a family is paying $35k for their son to play baseball...in an embarrassing on-campus stadium or a minor league stadium well off campus. Which is the tougher sell? Football or baseball?

Until there is a major financial commitment to the program I don't see it getting much better. Maybe lightning in a bottle on occasion but not consistently competitive.

All this said, it is difficult to blame the current or former ADs for spending money elsewhere. The bucket of money is only so big. But I would really like to see an affluent alum choose the sport they played at Duke to support rather than basketball or tennis as examples.

[dukebsbll14]

All this said, it is difficult to blame the current or former ADs for spending money elsewhere. The bucket of money is only so big. But I would really like to see an affluent alum choose the sport they played at Duke to support rather than basketball or tennis as examples.

Operation Convince Marcus Stroman to Make a Sizable Donation to Duke Baseball now in effect!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to goduke.com, 14 players have been drafted under Coach Mac. This is not including incoming freshmen that were selected in the draft.
2011
Ben Grisz - Junior
Dennis O'Grady - Senior
2010
Michael Ness - Senior (drafted in 09, returned for senior season)
Jake Lemmerman - Junior
Chris Manno - Senior (drafted in '09, returned for senior season)
Jeremy Gould - Senior
2009: 3rd in the ACC in players drafted this year
Tim Sherlock - Senior
Nate Freiman - Senior (drafted in 08, returned for senior season)
Andrew Wolcott - Senior
Matt Williams - Senior
Alex Hassan - Junior
2008
Nate
2007
Jim Gallagher - Junior
Brett Bartles - Junio
Tony Bajoczky - Senior
2006
none
-Also, the 2008 incoming class was ranked #25 by Baseball America.

Another side note, any Duke baseball fans remember Tony Bajoczky from a few years ago? He was used as a reliever for most of his career with ERA's at 5.31, 9.29 and 6.09, then in his senior season was moved to the rotation and posted a 9-3 record with a 3.22 ERA and was the ace of the staff. I loved that guy!

Sources: various goduke.com articles

[Dev11]

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

You have heard of Title IX, no?

[Duvall]

You have heard of Title IX, no?

That wouldn't cut against starting a softball program. But the funds would still have to come from somewhere, and I'm not sure why Duke would want to cut funding from its very successful complement of nonrevenue programs to start a different nonrevenue program that would require a whole new set of facilities.

[hughgs]

That wouldn't cut against starting a softball program. But the funds would still have to come from somewhere, and I'm not sure why Duke would want to cut funding from its very successful complement of nonrevenue programs to start a different nonrevenue program that would require a whole new set of facilities.

I think the big question about a softball team would be facilities. We already have bad baseball facilities. Where would the softball field go? And if you can't afford to upgrade the existing baseball facilities how are you going to justify the expense of half-way decent softball facilities?

[sagegrouse]

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

While not a hijack, this paragraph is a detour over a very bumpy road. And, even worse, "no excuse not to have one" is clearly just plain wrong (I was tempted to use a stronger term). Others have pointed out that baseball is hamstrung by lack of resources and facilities. In fact, that is the subject of this thread. Adding a similar sport makes every aspect of the baseball problem even worse.

College athletics these days involves a series of compromises among conflicting objectives. Title IX is a big deal. Adding one woman's sport may result in dropping another. And then there's the question of resources. Eleven-plus scholarships aproaches a million dollars of costs. Coaches, facilities, operations, equipment add way more than that. I have, so far, listed beaucoup reasons not to have a woman's softball program. So your original sally, at least to me, makes no sense whatsoever.

sagegrouse

[DU82]

I think the big question about a softball team would be facilities. We already have bad baseball facilities. Where would the softball field go? And if you can't afford to upgrade the existing baseball facilities how are you going to justify the expense of half-way decent softball facilities?

The field itself was upgraded to an all-turf field two seasons ago. It's the rest of the facility, including dugouts, locker rooms (there are none), and the stands that are lacking.

[hughgs]

The field itself was upgraded to an all-turf field two seasons ago. It's the rest of the facility, including dugouts, locker rooms (there are none), and the stands that are lacking.

Yes, I know the field was upgraded. Coach offered my 4 year old the opportunity to run around it just as construction was finishing up (he declined). But, there are more to facilities than the field and the facilities are bad.

[miramar]

As tuition keeps increasing, it seems to be getting harder for private colleges to recruit top players since as a so-called equivalency sport, baseball teams have few scholarships that have to be divided among a lot of different players. Getting half a scholarship at State U means that families don't have to pay much to send Johnny to school, but the same half scholarship at private schools still means a major outlay.

It's no coincidence that among ACC teams, Florida State is still alive in the NCAAs (as is their rival Florida), while Miami is out and Jim Morris doesn't even know if he will be back next year. Considering that Miami hosted a regional with UCF, Stony Brook, and Missouri State and couldn't even win a game (while being outscored 22-4), I don't think anyone will be surprised if he's gone.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yes, I know the field was upgraded. Coach offered my 4 year old the opportunity to run around it just as construction was finishing up (he declined). But, there are more to facilities than the field and the facilities are bad.

And he "threw" devildeac and I off of the outfield one January night when we wandered onto the turf before the outfield fence was put back in place, as we walked back to my car after a basketball game and noticed that it was there and open. I believe I posted about that experience at the time... :cool:

[formerdukeathlete]

As tuition keeps increasing, it seems to be getting harder for private colleges to recruit top players since as a so-called equivalency sport, baseball teams have few scholarships that have to be divided among a lot of different players. Getting half a scholarship at State U means that families don't have to pay much to send Johnny to school, but the same half scholarship at private schools still means a major outlay.

It's no coincidence that among ACC teams, Florida State is still alive in the NCAAs (as is their rival Florida), while Miami is out and Jim Morris doesn't even know if he will be back next year. Considering that Miami hosted a regional with UCF, Stony Brook, and Missouri State and couldn't even win a game (while being outscored 22-4), I don't think anyone will be surprised if he's gone.

I have asked the question before regarding eligibility for financial aid in addition to partial athletic scholarship grants in the context of non-rev sports.

If someone is offered a 1/2 or 1/4 athletic scholarship also has demonstrated financial need over and above that amount (within the University's financial aid award guidelines), can they not be awarded financial aid grants above the scholarship amount, and that this aid is not considered athletic scholarship assistance within NCAA allotment limitations?

If this were the case, this would mean that someone at Rice or Vandy (top programs) on a partial baseball scholarship might be attending on a financial aid package which complements the athletic scholarship grant.

This would also mean that it would be incorrect to suggest that state schools have big, big advantages over a private school in a sport such as baseball.

Someone with current information, experience with financial aid and athletic scholarships in non rev, please respond. Thank you.

[roywhite]

I have asked the question before regarding eligibility for financial aid in addition to partial athletic scholarship grants in the context of non-rev sports.

If someone is offered a 1/2 or 1/4 athletic scholarship also has demonstrated financial need over and above that amount (within the University's financial aid award guidelines), can they not be awarded financial aid grants above the scholarship amount, and that this aid is not considered athletic scholarship assistance within NCAA allotment limitations?

If this were the case, this would mean that someone at Rice or Vandy (top programs) on a partial baseball scholarship might be attending on a financial aid package which complements the athletic scholarship grant.

This would also mean that it would be incorrect to suggest that state schools have big, big advantages over a private school in a sport such as baseball.

Someone with current information, experience with financial aid and athletic scholarships in non rev, please respond. Thank you.

Not an expert or insider on this question, but I think the answer is "yes, there can be a combination of a partial athletic scholarship and need-based financial aid".
That's the situation at some other schools I'm familiar with, so very likely to be the case with Duke.

Here's a link to information on the maximum NCAA-allowable scholarships by sport (http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm).

There's no guarantee Duke is at the maximum allowable for all of these sports; I'd guess not.

One interesting piece of info is that men's lacrosse is permitted 12.6 scholarships and baseball 11.7.
We've seen that Duke is very competitive (well, better than very competitive) in men's lacrosse despite going against some public universities. But we know that Duke has excellent coaching and competitive facilites for lacrosse. That suggests to me that coaching and facilities are big hurdles for the baseball program, likely bigger hurdles than scholarship aid packages.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Other cheap unproven coaches previously hired: Michael William Krzyzewski, Dan Brooks, Steven Orr Spurrier, Gail Goestenkors.

Also Tim Corbin. Although, he's not so inexpensive anymore. He was a Clemson assistant before making Vandy a recent baseball power. Thanks to Todd Turner for a good hire.

[hughgs]

And he "threw" devildeac and I off of the outfield one January night when we wandered onto the turf before the outfield fence was put back in place, as we walked back to my car after a basketball game and noticed that it was there and open. I believe I posted about that experience at the time... :cool:

You should've sucked up to him more :). I used to always see him on campus and always said hi to him. Of course, having a mini-me as an escort helps.

[johnb]

...
One interesting piece of info is that men's lacrosse is permitted 12.6 scholarships and baseball 11.7...

The demographics for top-level lacrosse and top-level baseball may be different (I'm aware that not all lacrosse players are affluent, but I'd guess quite a few are prepared to pay part of the tuition to attend Duke).

I'm not all that enthused about bringing in more sports. Part of it is financial, but part of it is reserving another dozen spots in the freshman class for athletes. Of course, if my 2 year old grows up to be a great softball pitcher, my view may change.

Finally, being from Dallas myself, I was a little surprised to read the earlier question about why a coach would go to Duke from Dallas Baptist--seriously, Dallas Baptist and Duke would rarely be mentioned in the same breath on any topic that I can imagine. Nevertheless, I did look at their baseball facilities, and they're impressive....

[OZZIE4DUKE]

You should've sucked up to him more :). I used to always see him on campus and always said hi to him. Of course, having a mini-me as an escort helps.

We were walking through the Gold lot towards Science drive when I noticed the fence was down and the field had new, bright green "Astro-turf" on it. We traipsed through ankle deep mud and onto the green turf, when an unseen voice boomed across the field "GET OFF THE FIELD!!!!" We skedaddled off the field as quickly as we could... :cool:

[dukebsbll14]

We were walking through the Gold lot towards Science drive when I noticed the fence was down and the field had new, bright green "Astro-turf" on it. We traipsed through ankle deep mud and onto the green turf, when an unseen voice boomed across the field "GET OFF THE FIELD!!!!" We skedaddled off the field as quickly as we could... :cool:

dude, don't mess with baseball coaches and their fields.

When we would do our fall workouts in high school, if the temperature fell below 60 degrees or if it had rained recently, we weren't allowed on the grass and had to use a another grass field. You also weren't allowed to toss bats on the grass, you had to roll them. If you did you would run laps. Had a great field though.

[DU82]

I have asked the question before regarding eligibility for financial aid in addition to partial athletic scholarship grants in the context of non-rev sports.

If someone is offered a 1/2 or 1/4 athletic scholarship also has demonstrated financial need over and above that amount (within the University's financial aid award guidelines), can they not be awarded financial aid grants above the scholarship amount, and that this aid is not considered athletic scholarship assistance within NCAA allotment limitations?

If this were the case, this would mean that someone at Rice or Vandy (top programs) on a partial baseball scholarship might be attending on a financial aid package which complements the athletic scholarship grant.

This would also mean that it would be incorrect to suggest that state schools have big, big advantages over a private school in a sport such as baseball.

Someone with current information, experience with financial aid and athletic scholarships in non rev, please respond. Thank you.

Based on what I saw at the Big East school where my nephew was an assistant baseball coach, the answer is yes, they can receive "normal" financial aid. Some of the players were working at basketball games on work-study (do they still call it that?) which is a standard financial aid package item.

I will see him this weekend, and if I get a chance, I'll ask him about scholarships (after asking him about the wedding plans, since I'll see him at his engagement party.)

[dukebsbll14]

Marcus Stroman selected by the Toronto Blue Jays with the 22nd pick in the MLB Draft.

[formerdukeathlete]

The demographics for top-level lacrosse and top-level baseball may be different (I'm aware that not all lacrosse players are affluent, but I'd guess quite a few are prepared to pay part of the tuition to attend Duke).

I'm not all that enthused about bringing in more sports. Part of it is financial, but part of it is reserving another dozen spots in the freshman class for athletes. Of course, if my 2 year old grows up to be a great softball pitcher, my view may change.

..........

Re demographics, it may be the case that lacrosse prospects are from better-situated financially backgrounds as a general matter, though we have had Lacrosse players at Duke from single parent and non-professional family backgrounds. As financial aid is a broader swath these days, extending into middle income situations, perhaps all that is necessary at Duke to field competitive non-rev teams is offering the NCAA allotment in scholarships, and then offering financial aid packages which are competitive with our peer institutions. There will always be cases where a prospect may choose to save his or her parents money, who will pick a partial athletic scholarship to a state university, say in baseball, over a partial scholarship (with or without additional financial aid) to Duke.

Re the impact of offering additional varsity teams vis a vis Admissions and the general academic criteria of our undergrad student body, your concern is valid and one shared by faculty. At Harvard and some other Ivy schools, athletics-related admits approach 20% of the undergrad student body. This partly is why, with athletes comprising such a high percentage of the student body, that Ivies require that all athletes average within one standard deviation of the student body overall, academically. Comparing athletes with the student body excluding athletes, it's a bit more than 1 SD outside the mean, as athletes bring down the mean a bit.

With Softball at Duke, it would be more than 12 players attending Duke at any one time. Scholarships would be awarded on a partial basis in most cases and then you would have a certain number of preferred admits attending perhaps just on financial aid or paying freight.

I would think chances are that women's softball players recruited to Duke would be credible students for Duke, within on SD of the mean of the student body academically. I think Baseball tends to fill that bill as well.

Re Ivy admissions for student athletes, as Ivy schools share the same concerns academically as Duke, from the Daily Princetonian

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/12/01/27054/

'Deputy Dean of the College Peter Quimby said the determining factor for a student-athlete’s admission is whether his or her academic abilities are in line with those of the student body.

“Student-athletes at Princeton have to be within one standard deviation of the mean of the academic population as a whole,” Quimby said of the entire group. “In other words, the student-athlete has to look like the rest of the undergraduate population.” '

.....

'One sport, however, has a unique set of standards: football.

In “Playing the Game,” his 2004 book on athletic recruiting in the Ivy League, Chris Lincoln described the Ivy League standards for football recruits. Given a maximum recruiting class of 30 players, recruits are divided into four Academic Index bands: At least eight players must fall into the top band, which ranges from a perfect 240 to one standard deviation below the average for admitted students. Twelve can fall into the second band, which goes down to two standard deviations below the mean. Eight players can fit in the third band, with scores as low as two-and-a-half standard deviations below the mean. Coaches can also recruit up to two students with even lower scores, but Lincoln pointed out that this is extremely rare.'

At an Ivy school, of 30 preferred Football admits each year, all may be within 1 SD of the mean, though 22 of the 30 may be more than one SD. But, it is my understanding that in baseball, lacrosse, softball at Princeton and Ivies in general most all student athletes are within 1 SD. Were that to be the case for a Softball squad at Duke, I would say, go ahead, at such time as we can afford it. Where we have gotten into trouble, that is with complaints from faculty, and off track, was with respect to the largest squad on campus, Football. Cutcliffe pushed the academics envelope quite far in offering and obtaining commitments from prospects whom other ACC schools would not recruit because they were not NCAA eligible at the time. Under these circumstances we may not afford a single additional admissions slot for another varsity sport at Duke. But, the good news re Baseball and possibly adding Softball at some point, is that what Cutcliffe was doing was absolutely unnecessary. Look to Stanford's and Northwestern's greater success in Football with high academic standards.

[dpslaw]

I'm with FDA! Given the dramatic decline in ACC honor roll selections under Cutcliffe--not to mention the huge drop-off in the graduation rate for football players--we need a change in recruiting strategy. We need more academic gems like Asack!

[formerdukeathlete]

I'm with FDA! Given the dramatic decline in ACC honor roll selections under Cutcliffe--not to mention the huge drop-off in the graduation rate for football players--we need a change in recruiting strategy. We need more academic gems like Asack!

x number of Duke commits under Cutcliffe decommitted because they were not NCAA eligible - they were unable to enroll at any NCAA D-1 program as scholarship athletes. Note attrition among Duke Football players under Cutcliffe who have had problems with the law. Self-reported academic data of Cutcliffe recruited players suggests a number have enrolled with below the cutoffs imposed on prior coaches. The first thing Cutcliffe did, as a condition of his accepting the job, was to push for no limits on academic exceptions. In his first couple of recruiting classes he did not screen in a fashion typical of academic FBS programs. We offered very few elite prospects who showed solid academics. None of this is necessary nor particularly helpful for Duke Athletics, overall. I do note in the last couple of recruiting classes that we are covering our bases in a way more typical of an academic FBS program, which is a positive trend. Whether our misfires out of the blocks are reflected in the team's overall academic performance, I think they have been. But, the net effect is offset by 20 plus invited walkons who basically by virtue of NCAA guidelines need to be within one SD of the mean of Duke students, in admissions criteria, academically, or else financial aid would count in the scholarship limits were they to see the field. Roof and prior coaches really did not have admissions slots for invited walkons. That we are allowing this now definitely is a positive for the Football Program. Whatever the total number of ahtletes on full or partial athletic scholarships, my guess is in the 270 range, whatever the number of additional athletes who have received some preference in Admissions - lets say add another 250, the numbers are substantial relative to the total undergraduate enrollment. Academic criteria of athletes is an important factor, to the faculty, re scholarship and the reputation of the school. Softball in my view likely would be a net positive to the academic criteria of athletes overall, and Duke Baseball I believe is mainstream academically.

[dpslaw]

New baseball coach to be named later this afternoon!