Miles in the NBA

[timmy c]

Here is an interesting Draft Express write-up on Miles and his upcoming draft prospects.

“… despite his unimpressive career numbers, Plumlee is an NBA prospect and could get some looks from teams drafting in the second round. If not, he's easily the type of player who could find himself on a team's roster this fall, as there just aren't that many big men around with his physical attributes and rebounding ability.”

See the rest of the article here (http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1vkNNiOXy).

[Dukehky]

I always thought that the biggest issue with Miles was his mental state in games. For years I've heard that he was the best big man in practice. He was the starting Center at the beginning of his freshman year, but when the games started, it took a really long time for him adjust to the pressure he put on himself as a Duke basketball player. To be perfectly honest, I fully expect him to make a roster in the NBA for the reasons listed in the previous post, he's a tremendous physical specimen who will be a phenomenal practice player to say the least. I actually think the pressure that he senses as an NBA player will be significantly less than being a Duke basketball player, and will hopefully lead to a career where he fulfills his potential even more than what we saw when he was at Duke. His mid-range game is solid, his post moves are good when he gets the ball and decides he wants to be aggressive, and he's built like a house and can jump out of the gym. If he can get his head right, there is no reason he can't be a great practice player and hopefully a solid role player in the league for a long time. As I've said before, as a professional basketball player, without anything other than hoops to worry about, he's just going to get better with every day that goes by.

[NM Duke Fan]

To me Miles has significant potential to make a team, and if he can let his instincts and body take over in due time instead of over-thinking the game, he could really surprise people. He has the necessary physical tools to stick in the league and be a solid back up for years. Miles, lose your mind and come to your senses!

[Edouble]

I actually think the pressure that he senses as an NBA player will be significantly less than being a Duke basketball player.

What makes you think this? Because he won't be asked to be a star/high level contributor?

[basket1544]

Depending on the market he ends up in, he could have a much less pressure on him in the NBA. As a Duke basketball player you have to be on at all times. Every game you face someone trying to knock you off the top. As a back up center in Milwaukee (for example)? How many people outside of Milwaukee can name the starting center for Milwaukee?

[davekay1971]

Depending on the market he ends up in, he could have a much less pressure on him in the NBA. As a Duke basketball player you have to be on at all times. Every game you face someone trying to knock you off the top. As a back up center in Milwaukee (for example)? How many people outside of Milwaukee can name the starting center for Milwaukee?

Miles definitely has the body and athleticism to find a place in the NBA. Like many guys, he will definitely be helped if he finds the right situation. But 6'10" strong guys with great hops can find a home in the NBA.

[greybeard]

To me Miles has significant potential to make a team, and if he can let his instincts and body take over in due time instead of over-thinking the game, he could really surprise people. He has the necessary physical tools to stick in the league and be a solid back up for years. Miles, lose your mind and come to your senses!

Instincts have nothing to do with how one performs. Nothing. Miles has poor concepts about certain type movements, he works against himself and the laws of physics and makes certain movements/moves much less effective and efficient than they can be. My guess is that this comes from classical training that gifted athletes exposed to "coaching" at an early age receive, coaching that has to do with developing musclular core muscles, muscling the ball from waist high up to shooting or dunking the ball and delivering it to the basket. All thisw muscling gets in Miles' way, much of it is downright self-sabotaging. Tight core muscles that hold excessive residual tension PREVENT rather than FACILITATE a person's moving from a bent over position to a relatively upright one. Thus, for example, when Miles catches it inside the defense, bends to gather himself, either fakes going, up or actually goes up, to shoot, he must not only overcomke gravity but also the pull of his core muscles downward into folding. The core muscles are more powerful than the erector muscles of the back. The erector muscles must exert sharp and effortful force to break through the folding flexor muscles of the core. When they do, Miles arms go flying upwards, and the ball goes flying out. We then say that Miles has "bad hands," or Miles is "uncoordinated," but neither is true.

Rather he is double cursed. First, all the core strengthening exercises big guys are put through to help them stand erect and do whatever it is that strength and basketball coaches think they help big guys do actually impede flowing athleticism and the timing and completeness of the flexor muscles of the core and therefore of the rest of the body, particularly those that permit the head to move away from the chest and come even with the horizon and even slightly upwards, to LET Go. This is what we call COORDINATION. Miles' workout routine to build ever stronger abs works against his performance rather than furthers it.

The problem for guyws like Miles is compounded by the fact that the focus on core muscle strength leads to upside down concepts of what makes for effective inside play--it actually prevents them from seeing the obvious and leads them to try to do things that make no sense kenesthetically, esthetically, and certainly not from the perspective of the dance that takes place between te guy with the ball h is nerthe asket and the guy without it who is trying to time and impede the guy with the ball from putting it into the basket.

I could spell this out in minute detail, believe me minute. But, I'll simply ask you ts. Does anybody on this Board, anyone, not KNOW to a certainty when Miles is faking underneath the basket instead of going up to shoot, and does anybody on this Board not know when Miles is intent on going up to shoot and is the least bit surprised when he loses control of the ball. Are you alll genuises? My guy Michael Hebron used to be fon of saying that "even the worst golfer among us can tell by looking who has a good swing that makes sense from one that doesn't. They might not know what makes one swing work well and the other work bad but they sure as heck can see the difference.

Miles does not simply need to relax, not play with the stress tht he usually brought to the court iuntil those final handful of games, he needs to learn how to figure out how to do things differently, how to discover ways of playing underneath the basket that permit him to control tempo and direction and balance and manipulate those things in the defenders around them. Once he begins the process of experimenting with a fresh mind, hopefully with some structure that will permit the differentiation of body parts that move together as if frozen when sometimes moving them in opposition or with different timing would be more effective for the task at hand, he will learn a much more diverse and effective array of offensive skills than he has developed in the 16 to 18 years of having been subjected to how to instructions has produced to date.

The best thing about the pros is that it will give Miles the opportunity to kick it with players who present in diverse ways to get near the rim, manipulate defenders, and go into finishing moves as the reaction of the defenders dictates. He can watch and look for all sorts of things beyond which all those fitness gurus and how to coaches have told him in a miriad of ways are important. We are talking from the feet through the knees (bend) to the tihtnss and twtichness o ththghs nd butts to the elongated elegance that those same muscles can create and which are far more susceptible of change midstream than the twitchy variety, to thetightnes of the shoulders, neck and jaw muscles, the firmness with which the ball is held, which hand is on top and which is on the bottom, which route the hands take when they bring the ball up to shooting, and how that fits with what has been done before, etc. You look at those things from moves that your temmakes make against you in one-on-one lay that emts them to change in midstrea o aoid your defense and throw you even further off the play while maintaining their own balance and timing and delivery. You then try to recreate what you think you have seen in your own body until the feel and the movemens sem to begin to fergh eversible and repeatable and the ball goes where you wnt o\it, with the trajectory and speed that you wnt it, maybe also the spine that you wnt it, from the release point you want it, and so on.

None of this learning can take place if Miles is dead set on tighting those core muscles into a permanent state of assymetrical constriction and Miles is certain that more strength and quicker movements with greater intensity of musclar action is the answer.

There is, I am soyo say, no instinct to return to that will permit a person who does not know how to pull a hyudini and simply relax into a performance that requires self knowlegdge and mastery. Once the course of such learning begins, once the investigation of possible modes of self use in different environments begins, learning can take place quite quickly--an awful lot can be accomplished in a surprisingly little time. But, practicing the same way, with stress or not and expecting different results, well, let's say it don't work and lae it t hat. If it did, I have to believe that we would not be having this conversation for the millionth time, for the millionth time even though we know that Miles has been subjecd to world-class phyical trainers, kinesthegiologists, how-to coaches, since well before he came to Duke and certainly thereafter.

At some point, someone has to come up with the startling possibility that there must be a better way. Hmmm.

[sporthenry]

Miles definitely has the body and athleticism to find a place in the NBA. Like many guys, he will definitely be helped if he finds the right situation. But 6'10" strong guys with great hops can find a home in the NBA.

It'll be interesting to see how many cinder blocks Miles stacks up to b/c we all know how much NBA scouts love those measurements. Last year, Vucevic seemed to jump up some boards just b/c he was the tallest guy at the combine and was 6'11.25 without shoes and 6'11.75 with shoes. Even with more size in the draft this year, I'd find it pretty difficult to think a 6'10 guy can't hitch on somewhere especially as the original quote mentions his athleticism and rebounding tenacity. But I always go back to a quote, I think it was from our friend Len Elmore, that said that Miles has basically the same body type and athleticism as Mason yet couldn't put it together so it will be interesting to see if he can improve his game at the next level.

[superdave]

I expect Miles to bounce around between the league and the NBDL for a couple of years. I am not sure if he will stick around for more than 3-4 years, but he'll get his shot. I do not think he will be a rotation player for anyone, but he could really dial in on the elbow and baseline jumper and establish his reputation as a rebounder, and get some minutes. Stranger things have happened. I do think he would be a great practice player and a positive locker room presence. I think his work ethic and athleticism will earn him some workouts and help him make a roster or two. If he can show some game in Vegas during the summer league, even better.

[CDu]

I expect Miles to bounce around between the league and the NBDL for a couple of years. I am not sure if he will stick around for more than 3-4 years, but he'll get his shot. I do not think he will be a rotation player for anyone, but he could really dial in on the elbow and baseline jumper and establish his reputation as a rebounder, and get some minutes. Stranger things have happened. I do think he would be a great practice player and a positive locker room presence. I think his work ethic and athleticism will earn him some workouts and help him make a roster or two. If he can show some game in Vegas during the summer league, even better.

Miles could be a Jeff Foster type of player: very athletic, good defender and rebounder, occasional jumpshot present. He has the athleticism and willingness to battle to be an end-of-the-bench guy for a team for years. The question with that is simply opportunity, as there are a lot of guys who are competing for that role. With his athleticism, he could be so much more. But he just hasn't seemed to be able to dial in to the flow of the game. Maybe it eventually happens for him.

[Billy Dat]

I agree with what others have said about his lack of intuitive understanding/playing of the game, and I found greybeard's anatomy tome to be interesting, too.

I have always felt that Miles was held back by his hands of stone.

He got invited to the NBA Draft Combine where he'll be measured, interviewed, do skill/strength/speed/agility drills and play 3 on 3. That's the chance for him to earn a bunch of tryouts. I would think someone would fall in love with the physical package and he'll get invited to a camp, even if he isn't drafted.

[phaedrus]

Depending on the market he ends up in, he could have a much less pressure on him in the NBA. As a Duke basketball player you have to be on at all times. Every game you face someone trying to knock you off the top. As a back up center in Milwaukee (for example)? How many people outside of Milwaukee can name the starting center for Milwaukee?

How dare you speak that way about Ersan Ilyasova.

- reporting from Milwaukee

[Billy Dat]

How dare you speak that way about Ersan Ilyasova.

- reporting from Milwaukee

I know we laugh, but Ilyasova can play some ball!!!! That dude is goooood!

[Duke of Nashville]

Miles Plumlee>Dexter Pittman

[allenmurray]

There is, I am soyo say, no instinct to return to that will permit a person who does not know how to pull a hyudini and simply relax into a performance that requires self knowlegdge and mastery.

This sentence makes my brain hurt.

[mstein34]

i could see him being a Taj Gibson type player off the bench. give him a few years and he'll come into his own.

[COYS]

Rebounding is a stat that usually translates very well to the NBA. Miles has always been very good at it. I think Miles could thrive on a team that already have plenty of scoring in their second unit and just needs a guy to come in and do dirty work on the boards and on defense. His offense is still very, very raw and he'll have to keep turnovers to a minimum. However, if he can start to hit wide open 12-15 footers with consistency (he's shown flashes of this in college) and do his usual cleanup work around the basket, he could have a pretty solid career as a role player off the bench. If things ever slow down for him and he's able to improve his rebounding to exceptional levels (which his athleticism might make possible) he could be more than a role player off the bench.

[Reilly]

Shav (6-10, 245): 92 G, 17.5 mins, 6.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.6 ast, 1.4 blocks, 51% FG, 64% FT
Miles (6-10, 230): 135 G, 15.9 mins, 4.8 ppg, 4.8 rpb, 0.3 ast, 0.6 blocks, 56% FG, 63% FT

[MIKESJ73]

Shav did make over $3,600,000 in the NBA alone. That is a nice little head start to any career. Hopefully Miles can make some money playing ball too. IMHO, Shav was a better ball player, but Miles is a better athlete.

[tommy]

Instincts have nothing to do with how one performs. Nothing. Miles has poor concepts about certain type movements, he works against himself and the laws of physics and makes certain movements/moves much less effective and efficient than they can be. My guess is that this comes from classical training that gifted athletes exposed to "coaching" at an early age receive, coaching that has to do with developing musclular core muscles, muscling the ball from waist high up to shooting or dunking the ball and delivering it to the basket. All thisw muscling gets in Miles' way, much of it is downright self-sabotaging. Tight core muscles that hold excessive residual tension PREVENT rather than FACILITATE a person's moving from a bent over position to a relatively upright one. Thus, for example, when Miles catches it inside the defense, bends to gather himself, either fakes going, up or actually goes up, to shoot, he must not only overcomke gravity but also the pull of his core muscles downward into folding. The core muscles are more powerful than the erector muscles of the back. The erector muscles must exert sharp and effortful force to break through the folding flexor muscles of the core. When they do, Miles arms go flying upwards, and the ball goes flying out. We then say that Miles has "bad hands," or Miles is "uncoordinated," but neither is true.

Rather he is double cursed. First, all the core strengthening exercises big guys are put through to help them stand erect and do whatever it is that strength and basketball coaches think they help big guys do actually impede flowing athleticism and the timing and completeness of the flexor muscles of the core and therefore of the rest of the body, particularly those that permit the head to move away from the chest and come even with the horizon and even slightly upwards, to LET Go. This is what we call COORDINATION. Miles' workout routine to build ever stronger abs works against his performance rather than furthers it.

The problem for guyws like Miles is compounded by the fact that the focus on core muscle strength leads to upside down concepts of what makes for effective inside play--it actually prevents them from seeing the obvious and leads them to try to do things that make no sense kenesthetically, esthetically, and certainly not from the perspective of the dance that takes place between te guy with the ball h is nerthe asket and the guy without it who is trying to time and impede the guy with the ball from putting it into the basket.

I could spell this out in minute detail, believe me minute. But, I'll simply ask you ts. Does anybody on this Board, anyone, not KNOW to a certainty when Miles is faking underneath the basket instead of going up to shoot, and does anybody on this Board not know when Miles is intent on going up to shoot and is the least bit surprised when he loses control of the ball. Are you alll genuises? My guy Michael Hebron used to be fon of saying that "even the worst golfer among us can tell by looking who has a good swing that makes sense from one that doesn't. They might not know what makes one swing work well and the other work bad but they sure as heck can see the difference.

Miles does not simply need to relax, not play with the stress tht he usually brought to the court iuntil those final handful of games, he needs to learn how to figure out how to do things differently, how to discover ways of playing underneath the basket that permit him to control tempo and direction and balance and manipulate those things in the defenders around them. Once he begins the process of experimenting with a fresh mind, hopefully with some structure that will permit the differentiation of body parts that move together as if frozen when sometimes moving them in opposition or with different timing would be more effective for the task at hand, he will learn a much more diverse and effective array of offensive skills than he has developed in the 16 to 18 years of having been subjected to how to instructions has produced to date.

The best thing about the pros is that it will give Miles the opportunity to kick it with players who present in diverse ways to get near the rim, manipulate defenders, and go into finishing moves as the reaction of the defenders dictates. He can watch and look for all sorts of things beyond which all those fitness gurus and how to coaches have told him in a miriad of ways are important. We are talking from the feet through the knees (bend) to the tihtnss and twtichness o ththghs nd butts to the elongated elegance that those same muscles can create and which are far more susceptible of change midstream than the twitchy variety, to thetightnes of the shoulders, neck and jaw muscles, the firmness with which the ball is held, which hand is on top and which is on the bottom, which route the hands take when they bring the ball up to shooting, and how that fits with what has been done before, etc. You look at those things from moves that your temmakes make against you in one-on-one lay that emts them to change in midstrea o aoid your defense and throw you even further off the play while maintaining their own balance and timing and delivery. You then try to recreate what you think you have seen in your own body until the feel and the movemens sem to begin to fergh eversible and repeatable and the ball goes where you wnt o\it, with the trajectory and speed that you wnt it, maybe also the spine that you wnt it, from the release point you want it, and so on.

None of this learning can take place if Miles is dead set on tighting those core muscles into a permanent state of assymetrical constriction and Miles is certain that more strength and quicker movements with greater intensity of musclar action is the answer.

There is, I am soyo say, no instinct to return to that will permit a person who does not know how to pull a hyudini and simply relax into a performance that requires self knowlegdge and mastery. Once the course of such learning begins, once the investigation of possible modes of self use in different environments begins, learning can take place quite quickly--an awful lot can be accomplished in a surprisingly little time. But, practicing the same way, with stress or not and expecting different results, well, let's say it don't work and lae it t hat. If it did, I have to believe that we would not be having this conversation for the millionth time, for the millionth time even though we know that Miles has been subjecd to world-class phyical trainers, kinesthegiologists, how-to coaches, since well before he came to Duke and certainly thereafter.

At some point, someone has to come up with the startling possibility that there must be a better way. Hmmm.

Funny, but none of these purportedly self-imposed physical limitations on Miles's performance seem to have affected him much at the defensive end, where his timing, his hand-eye, his strength, his jumping ability, and his overall athleticism, not to mention yes, his instincts, served him very, very well.

Rather than worrying too much about letting the coolness into his vertebrae, or whatever, I'd rather see Miles work on developing a drop step and a little jump hook. Those might help a tad.

[Jderf]

Shav did make over $3,600,000 in the NBA alone. That is a nice little head start to any career.

Head start!? I know you were purposefully making an understatement, but still, if my net worth ends up being anywhere near that at the end of my "career," I will be a very happy man. Head start? Heck. That's starting from the finish line, if you ask me. Not a bad place to be at all.

[greybeard]

Funny, but none of these purportedly self-imposed physical limitations on Miles's performance seem to have affected him much at the defensive end, where his timing, his hand-eye, his strength, his jumping ability, and his overall athleticism, not to mention yes, his instincts, served him very, very well.

Rather than worrying too much about letting the coolness into his vertebrae, or whatever, I'd rather see Miles work on developing a drop step and a little jump hook. Those might help a tad.

On defense, Miles relies on the big muscles of his butt and thighs and hamstrings to do most all of the work. When they animater action, the also big muscles of the arms and shoulders respond. The finer the muscles of the forarms and hands, eyes, head, the ability to create illusion, all require subtleness, not force. Going for a rebound involves explosive action, holding position requires big muscle constant constriction; leaping involves the firing of big muscles. All these actions involve less of your brain than dribbling, catching off the dribble, faking with the ball, arms, hands, head, shoulders, eyes, etc. in a way that seems to say "here comes my momentum up to a shot so that the defender will react while your center of gravity has not moved." These are two different functions.

More importantly, on defense and rebounding you will not see Miles or any other big man start from a semi crouched position; they will be upright, not rigidly so as what many mstakenly call "good" posture, but rather with the erectness one sees in an upright running back. Thus, while there is the issue of residual tension throughout the core muscles that needs to be overcome that slows a player like Miles down, there is not the purposeful constriction of the core muscles that causes other flexor muscles like the muscles that pull the chin down towards the chest, the shoulders down and forward, the ribs down and forward, and all of the joints associated with these bends very rigid to overcome.

And, when Miles loses himself, that is his poor concepts of self image, when sprinting down the court to finish on a fast break we see what freedom can bring. But, how would you explain the anomoly of a beautifully performing athlete's running with elongated strides down the court, catching the ball in stride and then having the ball slip out of his hands, or bounce off the rim when he goes to throw it down. My hypothesis, he constricts those core muscles with the rest of the flexors in the body, which by the way include the muscles that CLOSE THE HAND INTO A FIST, in preparation for delivering the ball to the basket? Stress is not an answer. Stress will throw one into habitual patterns of flexor constriction, if that is your habit. On the other hand if you look at Mayweather, or Sugar Ray Robinson or Sugar Ray Leonard, when they are under "stress", their shoulders drop, their heads remain loose and floating on top of their spines, their arms are loose not tight, and their torsos are pliant not constricted. You want a perfect image--catch some video of when Tommy Hearns had Leonard in trouble and looked like he was ready to take him out and it ended up the other way around. Look at Leonard.

A perfect example of this same sort of posture in basketball would be, among others, Adrian Dantley, Kevin McKale, Paul Gasol, Vladie Divoc, Anthony Davis, Bill Russell, to name just a few inside players. You want outside players, MJ, Kobe, Nash, Pippin, Pierce, Dirk, Magic and Bird. You will see rigidity in these players when they have a defender off balance and want to blow/push past them. It is a conscious choice and can be let go in a nanno second.

By the way, the two best off the ball big defenders who dominated with their defense even though they were only in the 6'9" range brought that same type organization to their defensive styles and relied on the quickness and effortlessness in getting off their feet and moving their arms and hands with the freedom that the softness throughout their torsos that a lack of core constriction permitted were Russell and Davis. Both had the luxury and intelligence to use that organization to wait and to come at the ball from unexpected angles with impecable timing to be the defensive forces that they were.

In the end, my perspectives are just hypothesis, there might well be other things going on that a visual "examination" does not pick up that might be revealed by moving someone in ways that are effortless to them that will revel that such a hypothesis is wrong, or incomplete. The more one investigates, the more a revised hypothesis might be shown to need reevaluation. We are talking about an entire and unique individual, and one means of analysis, a first approximation of what is actually going on is rarely the whole story and sometimes no part of the story at all. My experience with the game tells me that my hypothesis concerning Miles has a decent chance of telling alot. But, that is all.

Stress is an interesting word. What parts of Miles you think it impacts and how you do not explain; nor do you explain why, if there is stress on one end of the court, it disappears on the other. If it is stress that produces tightness, knee jerk and uncoordinated actions on offense, as you posit, how and why is it turned off on the other end. And, what is it that you mean by "stress." Are you suggesting that Miles "chokes," and does so with reasonable consistently when close to the basket? it does appear to be what you are actually going beyond suggesting. I'm not buying it.

[Lennies]

Miles Plumlee>Dexter Pittman

Pittman will never be hindered by tight abs.

[moonpie23]

Shav did make over $3,600,000 in the NBA alone. That is a nice little head start to any career. Hopefully Miles can make some money playing ball too. IMHO, Shav was a better ball player, but Miles is a better athlete.

shav is making money now.......a lot....not in the nba, but he's playing ball, seeing the world and checking his atm balances...

[miramar]

Pittman will never be hindered by tight abs.

he makes up for it with great elbows.

[cato]

Head start!? I know you were purposefully making an understatement, but still, if my net worth ends up being anywhere near that at the end of my "career," I will be a very happy man. Head start? Heck. That's starting from the finish line, if you ask me. Not a bad place to be at all.

Of course, grossing $3.5mm in your 20's and ending up with a net worth of $3.5mm when you're 65 are two very different things. Nevertheless, as you say, starting from the finish line is still a good place to start.

[hq2]

Of course, grossing $3.5mm in your 20's and ending up with a net worth of $3.5mm when you're 65 are two very different things. Nevertheless, as you say, starting from the finish line is still a good place to start.

Shav (6-10, 245): 92 G, 17.5 mins, 6.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.6 ast, 1.4 blocks, 51% FG, 64% FT
Miles (6-10, 230): 135 G, 15.9 mins, 4.8 ppg, 4.8 rpb, 0.3 ast, 0.6 blocks, 56% FG, 63% FT

Hard to say. Shav did make it, but he had problems at Duke with playing overweight and being injured;
we never really saw him at his best. Not sure if Miles has that much upside. I think he's closer to
Chris Burgess, who was a great athlete at 6-10, but had minimal B-ball skills, and who never made the NBA (although Miles may be a little better). Anyhow, now that I know Shav's worth around 3 million, I won't feel sorry for him.

[greybeard]

Try this. Lie on yourright side with your right arm extended straight towards the wal behind your head, your hand face up, with the side of your head resting on your arm. Now, listen carefully. SLOWLY, open and close your right hand, but only until you feel some resistence, which means that nobody should be closing one's hand anywhere near a fist. In fact, when closing one's hand, simply bring your thumb reasonably extended towards the other fingers, also reasonably extended and also the fingers towards the thum and then stop when the resistence appears, whether it is efore the fingers touch or not. The same with opening the hand, only go as far open as is easy, until resistence appears. Do this very slowly, aqnd then slower than that. The slower you go the better able you will be a ble to discern differences, when the resistence first appears rather than pushing past that point and, if, as will undoubtedly be the case, push less far past the point of when resistence first appears. Do this for a few minutes, and then lie on your back and relazx. You might want to notice whether both sides of the upper back feel equally wide and equally in contact with the ground.

Go backi to your side and begin the opening and closing slowly, and only as far closed and open as you will feel resistence.

I could then ask you to coordinate the opening of your hand with an exhilation, aqnd repeat for a half minute to a minute, and then switch, match the excellation with the closing of the fist, again keeping both the exhilation and closing of the fist slow and in cync. Can you tell whether the fist opens and closes further and more easily when the exhilation and openking of the fist are coordinated or when the exhilation and the closing of the fist are coordinated? I could then ask you to repeat both going even more slowly about 25 times and see if you become clearer as to which will allow the hand to close and open more fully. I could do this but I won't because it will turn your head and your stomach inside out at first and for a while, until the movement of the hand starts to really let go of the residual tension that is held in the hand, the forearm, the upper arm, and the answers will change or appear to change, if you can tell any difference at all as you do this. It is by the way quite illuminating as you work with this and we could add many other small movements to this to make matters even more interesting, but we wont not now.

For now, work with the opening and closing of the hand slowly, about 25 times, only what is easy. Stop and rest for 30 sec0onds or a minute, and then coordinate with inhaling and exhaling but do not concern yourself which comination makes opening or closing easier. Repeat slowly each 20-25 times and lie on your back and rest. You might want to notice how the two sides of the back contact the ground or not.

Now, back on the right side and begin openking and closing, only what is easy, without regard to whether you are breathing in or out. Do it slowly and try to approximate when resistence is encountered and start going the other way. After you have done this around 10 times keep doing it and as you do, tighten your abs. No, I don't mean squeeze the snot out of them, just tighten them and then notice whether your hand is opening and closing less far, that is, whether you encounter an unmisstakeable amount of resistence as the hand both opens and closes and whether that resistence is encountered much sooner than when you were just opening and closing your hand slowly without squeezing/contracting your abs.

Remember, I haven't asked you to just play with coordinating the opening and closing variously with breathing in and then out. Breathing out in small and slow fashion will have necessarily constricted your lower abs a little, a relative minute amount, and if you did this a while you might discover some quite unexpected things. Nope, all I'm asking is that you establish a basepoint of op0ening and closing slowly without sqeezing or constricting your hand/fingers or pressing them outwards when opening--to practice doing this slowly and stopping either sqeezing or pressing open but rather making as little effort as possible. With that basepoint, we will then see what happens to thaqt right hand as you squeeze/constrict your abs, not a lot, but clearly discernibly, much less than say you imagine Miles might when he folds by constricting those abs in preparation for going up.

Should any of you undertake this little, and it is just the very beginning of a little experiment, it would be interesting if you reported your findings.

Should you find all this preparation too much, even in the name of science, even in the service of perhaps getting out of your own way when you go to say shoot inside off a rebound, if any of you play, you can simply lie on your right side, open and close your hand so that your thumb and fingers, not held rigidly either straight or curled, come closer together and stop when it gets slightly more difficult--do this 10-15-20 times until you get the hang of itl, the tempo and effort and amplitude of it, and then constrict those abs a bit and notice the difference that it makes.

Then, go back and imagine all that ab work that Miles has done and how much mass he needs to be lifting, and imagine the possility that he has developed the habit of constricting whenever he thinks of doing work through his middle, inclusive of when he is straightening rather than folding.

Then we will be able to discuss this issue. Until then, we are doing nothing much more than playing kick the can with a make believe can. Later.

[tommy]

Stress is an interesting word. What parts of Miles you think it impacts and how you do not explain; nor do you explain why, if there is stress on one end of the court, it disappears on the other. If it is stress that produces tightness, knee jerk and uncoordinated actions on offense, as you posit, how and why is it turned off on the other end. And, what is it that you mean by "stress." Are you suggesting that Miles "chokes," and does so with reasonable consistently when close to the basket? it does appear to be what you are actually going beyond suggesting. I'm not buying it.

You quoted me at the beginning of your post, and then at the end posited the above question, as if I had stated that Miles' struggles offensively were due to stress. I never said anything of the kind. Another poster or two did, I think. I don't think it has anything to do with stress. I certainly never said or suggested that Miles "chokes." No idea as to where you got that.

In fact, it was I who queried you as to why, if the root of his problem is his abs, or his core, or any of this other physiological and kinesthetic stuff that you discuss, why would that body serve him so well at the defensive end and yet betray him at the offensive end of the floor?

Miles is an excellent defensive big man. He is a very good athlete. He has a decent stand-still jump shot from 15 feet and in. What he never did at Duke was develop any reliable back-to-the-basket post moves, like a drop step, a jump hook, a turnaround. Whether that was because he put more work into developing other aspects of his game at the expense of low post moves, or whether he tried to develop them, but simply didn't have the natural talent to make those moves effectively against top flight defenders, or because he lacked confidence to try the moves very often in games, I don't know. Though I suspect it was one of the latter two, I don't know because I wasn't at practice.

Nor have I seen his abs or heard or read that he has done an unusual amount of strengthening or muscle building in that area.

[miramar]

From today's Miami Herald:

"The Heat, which has the 27th selection in the first round but no second-round pick, has begun summoning prospects to AmericanAirlines Arena for workouts, including Georgetown forward Hollis Thompson and Vanderbilt shooting guard John Jenkins.

Several other prospects are booked for upcoming auditions, including power forwards Drew Gordon (New Mexico), Andrew Nicholson (St. Bonaventure), John Shurna (Northwestern) and Miles Plumlee (Duke), Vanderbilt center Festus Ezeli and Gonzaga center Robert Sacre."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/31/2825081/despite-playoffs-miami-heat-staff.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy


I don't think they would be looking at Miles as a first rounder, so perhaps they are considering him in case he's not drafted. Miles would be a nice backup for Chris Bosh.

[COYS]

From today's Miami Herald:



I don't think they would be looking at Miles as a first rounder, so perhaps they are considering him in case he's not drafted. Miles would be a nice backup for Chris Bosh.

I would imagine you're right. Even if they LOVE Miles and think he has first round talent, they'd be crazy to take him in the first round as there is virtually zero chance that anyone else takes him that high.

[CDu]

From today's Miami Herald:

"The Heat, which has the 27th selection in the first round but no second-round pick, has begun summoning prospects to AmericanAirlines Arena for workouts, including Georgetown forward Hollis Thompson and Vanderbilt shooting guard John Jenkins.

Several other prospects are booked for upcoming auditions, including power forwards Drew Gordon (New Mexico), Andrew Nicholson (St. Bonaventure), John Shurna (Northwestern) and Miles Plumlee (Duke), Vanderbilt center Festus Ezeli and Gonzaga center Robert Sacre."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/31/2825081/despite-playoffs-miami-heat-staff.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy


I don't think they would be looking at Miles as a first rounder, so perhaps they are considering him in case he's not drafted. Miles would be a nice backup for Chris Bosh.

The Heat (with playmakers like James and Wade) are actually a terrific location for a guy like Plumlee. Draft him in the 2nd round (or sign him as a free agent) as a backup PF and have him come in to defend, rebound, and catch alley-oops. Boston would be another good fit in that regard. Same for Chicago and the Clippers. He wouldn't be as good a fit in San Antonio (where their bigs are asked to make too many decisions with the ball) or OKC (where they already have limited offense guys in Perkins and Ibaka). But on a contending team with a good playmaker that doesn't need a back-to-the-basket scorer, he'd be an interesting get.

[watzone]

Here is an interesting Draft Express write-up on Miles and his upcoming draft prospects.

“… despite his unimpressive career numbers, Plumlee is an NBA prospect and could get some looks from teams drafting in the second round. If not, he's easily the type of player who could find himself on a team's roster this fall, as there just aren't that many big men around with his physical attributes and rebounding ability.”

See the rest of the article here (http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1vkNNiOXy).

Here is a little blurb I posted on Miles a week ago today which goes into his agent and workout partners, etc. I think he'll hook on with a team and have heard that his workouts are going well from those who would know. http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/05/miles-plumlee-hopes-to-impress-at-nba-combine/

[UrinalCake]

The Heat (with playmakers like James and Wade) are actually a terrific location for a guy like Plumlee.... on a contending team with a good playmaker that doesn't need a back-to-the-basket scorer, he'd be an interesting get.

Totally agree, he plays great defense, rebounds, and is coachable. What team couldn't use a guy like that? Plus with his crazy athleticism he's sure to be a fan favorite. I can see him tearing it up at the combine and sparking some interest around draft time.

[FellowTraveler]

Chad Ford (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/208609428998602755): "As I said in my blog today, Miles Plumlee wowed everyone in workouts in Minnesota. Here's part of reason. Measured with a 41 inch vert. Wow."

Those of you who have ESPN Insider accounts might want to check out the blog post Ford referred to (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog/_/name/nba_draft/id/7995832/2012-nba-draft-scenarios-top-10-picks); there's some positive discussion of Plumlee's draft prospects.

[Billy Dat]

Chad Ford (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/208609428998602755): "As I said in my blog today, Miles Plumlee wowed everyone in workouts in Minnesota. Here's part of reason. Measured with a 41 inch vert. Wow."

Those of you who have ESPN Insider accounts might want to check out the blog post Ford referred to (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog/_/name/nba_draft/id/7995832/2012-nba-draft-scenarios-top-10-picks); there's some positive discussion of Plumlee's draft prospects.

And the inevitable backlash:

Chad Ford ‏@chadfordinsider
All of you flame tweeting that Miles Plumlee can't play, don't kill the messenger. Just passing along info. Scouts like athletic bigs

[UrinalCake]

Miles has got some serious ups! Just to put that in perspective, the best vertical in the 2011 combine was Iman Shumpert at 36.5". In 2010 it was Wesley Johnson at 32". Here are some historical notables (all stats taken from here (http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/vertical-jump.htm)):

Michael Jordan 48"
Darrell Griffith 48"
Spudd Webb 46"
Dee Brown 44"
Harold Miner 44"
Vince Carter 43"
Steve Francis 43"
Antonio McDyess 42"
Dominique Wilkins 42"
Allen Iverson 41"
Dr. J 41"
Julius Erving 41"
Shawn Kemp 40"
Larry Nance 40"
Rex Chapmann 39"
Kobe Bryant 38"
Desmond Mason 38"
Ralph Sampson 36"
Daryl Dawkins 34"
Shaquille Oneal 32"
Lamar Odom 32"
Magic Johnson 30"
Karl Malone 28"
Larry Bird 28"

(side note: I'm pretty surprised that Shaq's is as high as it is. Most of the guys on this list are big guards/wings. Really big men have a harder time getting up. Even more of a bonus for Miles.

[miramar]

And the inevitable backlash:

Chad Ford ‏@chadfordinsider
All of you flame tweeting that Miles Plumlee can't play, don't kill the messenger. Just passing along info. Scouts like athletic bigs

Miles probably never got the kind of respect he deserved, although some of this may be the result of the mindset that Duke can't develop big men. For a guy who came in with an RSCI ranking of 81, I think he did well at Duke and we're lucky we had him. He basically dropped in our lap and in the end was the only member of the class of 2012 still standing, not to mention the only one who earned a ring.

The critics probably pay too much attention to the fact that he only scored 6.6 PPG, while the scouts are probably more interested in the physical abilities that allowed him to get 7.1 rebounds in about 20 minutes of action.

More important, NBA rosters are full of big men who never had big-time stats in college, but who manage to have long and productive (not to mention profitable) careers, even if that means bouncing around from team to team. Here are just four examples from the teams still playing, but every club seems to have one or two:

Ryan Hollins (Celtics): 5.5 points and 4 rebounds at UCLA (6 years in the NBA)
Nazr Mohammad (Thunder): 12 points and 7 rebounds in one year at Kentucky (13 years)
Joelle Anthony (Heat): 3.7 points and 3.5 rebounds at UNLV (4 years)
Matt Bonner (Spurs): 15 points and 6 rebounds his senior year at Florida (7 years)

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

From today's Miami Herald:

"The Heat, which has the 27th selection in the first round but no second-round pick, has begun summoning prospects to AmericanAirlines Arena for workouts, including Georgetown forward Hollis Thompson and Vanderbilt shooting guard John Jenkins.

Several other prospects are booked for upcoming auditions, including power forwards Drew Gordon (New Mexico), Andrew Nicholson (St. Bonaventure), John Shurna (Northwestern) and Miles Plumlee (Duke), Vanderbilt center Festus Ezeli and Gonzaga center Robert Sacre."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/31/2825081/despite-playoffs-miami-heat-staff.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy


I don't think they would be looking at Miles as a first rounder, so perhaps they are considering him in case he's not drafted. Miles would be a nice backup for Chris Bosh.

No offense to Miles, but I'd have to go with Fez if he was an option. He is a defensive beast.

[Billy Dat]

I will be very surprised if Miles doesn't get a serious serious look from the NBA, including getting drafted in the second round. He is the ideal NBA workout guy - the scouts are already drooling and when his size, vertical and agility are measured at the Chicago Pre-Draft camp, his workout invite schedule is going to explode. Someone is going to fall in love and grab him up - I can feel it.

[gwlaw99]

Slam Online has a write up and video (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/06/nba-pre-draft-tour-miles-plumlee-workout/) of his workout and they came away impressed. As an added bonus look who appears on the screen at 1:12-1:13.

[Li_Duke]

I understand GMs make their draft picks based on a combination of potential (ie. physique) and past production. But besides age and a projected difference of 45 draft spots, what is the difference between Andre Drummond and Miles Plumlee?

[NSDukeFan]

I understand GMs make their draft picks based on a combination of potential (ie. physique) and past production. But besides age and a projected difference of 45 draft spots, what is the difference between Andre Drummond and Miles Plumlee?

I believe Miles was involved in about 75 more college wins and won a championship.

[Acymetric]

Slam Online has a write up and video (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/06/nba-pre-draft-tour-miles-plumlee-workout/) of his workout and they came away impressed. As an added bonus look who appears on the screen at 1:12-1:13.

I probably wouldn't have watched the video without that last bit, thanks for the heads up...cool to see!

[Jim3k]

Slam Online has a write up and video (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/06/nba-pre-draft-tour-miles-plumlee-workout/) of his workout and they came away impressed. As an added bonus look who appears on the screen at 1:12-1:13.

Hello, Jon!

[BD80]

From today's Miami Herald:

"The Heat, which has the 27th selection in the first round but no second-round pick, ...
I don't think they would be looking at Miles as a first rounder, so perhaps they are considering him in case he's not drafted. Miles would be a nice backup for Chris Bosh.

Phoenix is always willing to sell a pick ...

[UrinalCake]

Of course, the downside to all of this is that if he does get drafted in the second round, makes a roster, and surprises everyone by becoming a productive NBA player, then everyone will question why Duke couldn't make better use of him.

[gep]

Of course, the downside to all of this is that if he does get drafted in the second round, makes a roster, and surprises everyone by becoming a productive NBA player, then everyone will question why Duke couldn't make better use of him.

You mean, like Boozer?

Anyway, I like this quote from that Slam Online link above regarding Miles...

************
“His skill level is a little better than people think, not because they didn’t do a good job at Duke, because they really did a great job there,” said Josh Oppenheimer, former college coach and current trainer at Excel Basketball. “At Duke they’re playing to win National Championships and he had to do what they asked him to do. He definitely has a little bit more range on his shot than people think.”
************

Just like Boozer...

At Duke, the college team goals come first... not development of NBA talent. I like that:cool:

[dukelifer]

You mean, like Boozer?

Anyway, I like this quote from that Slam Online link above regarding Miles...

************
“His skill level is a little better than people think, not because they didn’t do a good job at Duke, because they really did a great job there,” said Josh Oppenheimer, former college coach and current trainer at Excel Basketball. “At Duke they’re playing to win National Championships and he had to do what they asked him to do. He definitely has a little bit more range on his shot than people think.”
************

Just like Boozer...

At Duke, the college team goals come first... not development of NBA talent. I like that:cool:

The NBA is a different game than college. It rewards athletic bigs who are willing to do the little things. Plumlee can have a very productive career if he can play really hard, rebound and hit free throws. Plumlee's issue at Duke was consistency of play and dealing with his anxiety when on the big stage. So for him - it is mental. The fact that most NBA games are not that important may actually help him relax and let his game mature.

[hq2]

The NBA is a different game than college. It rewards athletic bigs who are willing to do the little things. Plumlee can have a very productive career if he can play really hard, rebound and hit free throws. Plumlee's issue at Duke was consistency of play and dealing with his anxiety when on the big stage. So for him - it is mental. The fact that most NBA games are not that important may actually help him relax and let his game mature.

Well, the physical skills have always been there. It's always been mental with Miles. On the right team, he could clearly contribute, especially as he's a big who can run the floor well, a huge plus in the NBA, which values quickness. I could see him being a decent 10-15 minute a game "energy" player for the right team. Just need to work on avoiding those stupid turnovers, and stay involved in what's going on (avoid those long sterile stretches).

[gumbomoop]

Well, the physical skills have always been there. It's always been mental with Miles.... Just need to work on avoiding those stupid turnovers, and stay involved in what's going on (avoid those long sterile stretches).

I mean to ask this as a neutral, objective question: was Miles's tendency to fumble the ball - "bad hands" - a physical or mental thing? Did he simply have poorly developed "touch" when receiving passes - presumably a physical/hand/eye coordination thing - or was it more a matter of lack of concentration - a mental thing? I assume that another "bad hands" issue - being a bit too frequently stripped of the ball - was a lack of concentration thing, in that he sometimes wasn't aware that an opponent was lurking, ready to sneak in for the strip.

[Kedsy]

I mean to ask this as a neutral, objective question: was Miles's tendency to fumble the ball - "bad hands" - a physical or mental thing? Did he simply have poorly developed "touch" when receiving passes - presumably a physical/hand/eye coordination thing - or was it more a matter of lack of concentration - a mental thing? I assume that another "bad hands" issue - being a bit too frequently stripped of the ball - was a lack of concentration thing, in that he sometimes wasn't aware that an opponent was lurking, ready to sneak in for the strip.

Personally, I think it was mostly mental. It looked to me like sometimes Miles wasn't expecting the pass and/or didn't have the confidence to catch it and go straight up with it.

[Scorp4me]

Personally, I think it was mostly mental. It looked to me like sometimes Miles wasn't expecting the pass and/or didn't have the confidence to catch it and go straight up with it.

Although I have to admit that is something that he improved drastically his Senior year. He used to always want to take that single bounce...this year he eliminated that for the most part. I'm hoping Mason can do the same because he continued to take that bounce last year.

[MCFinARL]

Miles has got some serious ups! Just to put that in perspective, the best vertical in the 2011 combine was Iman Shumpert at 36.5". In 2010 it was Wesley Johnson at 32". Here are some historical notables (all stats taken from here (http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/vertical-jump.htm)):

Michael Jordan 48"
Darrell Griffith 48"
Spudd Webb 46"
Dee Brown 44"
Harold Miner 44"
Vince Carter 43"
Steve Francis 43"
Antonio McDyess 42"
Dominique Wilkins 42"
Allen Iverson 41"
Dr. J 41"
Julius Erving 41"
Shawn Kemp 40"
Larry Nance 40"
Rex Chapmann 39"
Kobe Bryant 38"
Desmond Mason 38"
Ralph Sampson 36"
Daryl Dawkins 34"
Shaquille Oneal 32"
Lamar Odom 32"
Magic Johnson 30"
Karl Malone 28"
Larry Bird 28"

(side note: I'm pretty surprised that Shaq's is as high as it is. Most of the guys on this list are big guards/wings. Really big men have a harder time getting up. Even more of a bonus for Miles.

So does this mean Erving actually had an 82" vertical? ;)

[zoroaster]

Some more numbers that possibly make Miles look even better.. Draftexpress doesn't have a single center with a better vertical at the draft combine since 2000, when it seems they started recording it consistently. There's nobody even close.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&sort=12

Dwight Howard at 6'9 w/o shoes is only 35.5", for chrissakes!

Even when you include hordes of smaller guys at PF, there are two -- a grand total of two -- recorded as having done better since 2000, both 6'6 guys.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=4&sort=12

[AtlBluRew]

Slam Online has a write up and video (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/06/nba-pre-draft-tour-miles-plumlee-workout/) of his workout and they came away impressed. As an added bonus look who appears on the screen at 1:12-1:13.

That was fun to watch. As a Duke basketball fan, I'm most interested in the guys that I can watch develop in a Duke uniform for 3-4 years. I've loved Miles' work ethic and talents; I've been proud of him in a Duke uniform, and I look forward to seeing him have a very productive NBA career. Thanks, Miles, for 4 very enjoyable years.

[UrinalCake]

Dwight Howard at 6'9 w/o shoes is only 35.5", for chrissakes!


If Miles truly does measure out at a 41" vertical, that is going to seriously turn some heads. I guess we should keep in mind that he was a high jumper in high school (as was Mason) so it's possible that he's simply learned good "form" in this particular drill. How well that translates onto the court is another issue entirely. But GM's and fans are impressed by numbers, so I do expect him to generate some buzz at the combine.

I agree with others that his issues were mostly mental. He's made some absolutely astounding physical plays in his four years. I remember during our 2010 run he had a play against Baylor (I think) where he rolled to the basket, jumped him and received the pass while facing away from the basket, then turned 180 degrees in mid air and laid the ball in. I have no idea how he knew where the basket was. Then there was the play this season against Virginia Tech (?) where he caught a length-of-the court pass from Tyler and reverse slammed it in without missing a step. You can't do those things without serious physical ability. I think I heard a coach say that he tends to over-think in game situations, and that makes sense to me.

[Acymetric]

I've sometimes wondered if one of Miles' problems was that he was too good a leaper, and in turn out-jumped himself at times.

[Troublemaker]

I mean to ask this as a neutral, objective question: was Miles's tendency to fumble the ball - "bad hands" - a physical or mental thing? Did he simply have poorly developed "touch" when receiving passes - presumably a physical/hand/eye coordination thing - or was it more a matter of lack of concentration - a mental thing? I assume that another "bad hands" issue - being a bit too frequently stripped of the ball - was a lack of concentration thing, in that he sometimes wasn't aware that an opponent was lurking, ready to sneak in for the strip.

He just has really small hands for his size. Quote from this link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/02/draft.notebook.santa.barbara/index.html


With 24 late first-round and second-round prospects scheduled to take part and representatives from all 30 teams reportedly on hand, the one name I heard from numerous sources was that of Duke center Miles Plumlee. The 6-11, 225-pounder not only played well but wowed those on hand with his hops, registering leading vertical leaps in the "with steps" category (41 inches) and "without steps" (34 inches) that were the best of the 14 prospects on Thursday (although his hand-size -- which comes in, well, handy when it comes to big men -- was the smallest of the group at eight and 1/4 inches).

I've suspected Miles had miniature hands for four years now, but it was still somewhat surprising that the measurement came out at 8". That's just wrong for a man his height and size.

[FellowTraveler]

If Miles truly does measure out at a 41" vertical, that is going to seriously turn some heads. I guess we should keep in mind that he was a high jumper in high school (as was Mason) so it's possible that he's simply learned good "form" in this particular drill. How well that translates onto the court is another issue entirely.

It has always seemed to me that Miles and Mason are capable of getting impressive height on their jumps, but are not particularly quick or explosive leapers. I.e., given time to gather themselves, they'll get up much higher than most bigs. But neither gets off the floor especially quickly, and neither is especially good at getting off the floor a second and third time in rapid succession. I think this accounts for some of the gap between their impressive verticals and their on-court performance. They are both very athletic, and very good jumpers -- but there are different types of athleticism, and different types of jumping ability, and the Plumlees' athleticism/leaping ability may not be the type that is ideally suited to basketball. Doesn't mean they can't be successful, of course.

[hq2]

It has always seemed to me that Miles and Mason are capable of getting impressive height on their jumps, but are not particularly quick or explosive leapers. I.e., given time to gather themselves, they'll get up much higher than most bigs. But neither gets off the floor especially quickly, and neither is especially good at getting off the floor a second and third time in rapid succession. I think this accounts for some of the gap between their impressive verticals and their on-court performance. They are both very athletic, and very good jumpers -- but there are different types of athleticism, and different types of jumping ability, and the Plumlees' athleticism/leaping ability may not be the type that is ideally suited to basketball. Doesn't mean they can't be successful, of course.

Precisely. What Miles can give you is one incredible leap, and that's about it. To paraphrase Clark Kellogg, he doesn't have very good "rejumpability". Also, despite his speed when running, he doesn't have good lateral quickness either. That means he's only really effective when in the full court; in the half court, where things slow down a bit, he'll have problems guarding quicker players or jumping more than once for rebounds. I would say it would limit him to being only a 10-15 minute game "energy" player for the right team; would Phoenix be a good fit, say, or maybe the Clippers or Portland? Needs to be on the right team; otherwise, he won't make it.

[Jim3k]

He just has really small hands for his size. Quote from this link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/02/draft.notebook.santa.barbara/index.html



I've suspected Miles had miniature hands for four years now, but it was still somewhat surprising that the measurement came out at 8". That's just wrong for a man his height and size.

How does one measure a hand? Wrist to end of middle finger? Or tip of pinky to tip of thumb with hand splayed?

Wouldn't a better way to determine the playing potential of a hand be to see if the player's hand can grasp the ball from the top and hold it strongly?

[Indoor66]

How does one measure a hand? Wrist to end of middle finger? Or tip of pinky to tip of thumb with hand splayed?

Wouldn't a better way to determine the playing potential of a hand be to see if the player's hand can grasp the ball from the top and hold it strongly?

Now Jim, you don't want to use so mem logic and remove a point over which to argue, do you?

[Greg_Newton]

How does one measure a hand? Wrist to end of middle finger? Or tip of pinky to tip of thumb with hand splayed?

Wouldn't a better way to determine the playing potential of a hand be to see if the player's hand can grasp the ball from the top and hold it strongly?

Both - you'll see both length and width listed, which are measured exactly as you defined. I'm not sure how you'd measure what you're suggesting in the 2nd paragraph, though; it'd pretty much be a binary test, with most players being able to palm the ball forever and a scant few not being able to get a good grip. Seems that hand measurements are a more easily quantifiable metric.

[Jim3k]

Now Jim, you don't want to use so mem logic and remove a point over which to argue, do you?

Far from it. I just wanted to say that, like Miles, I have an 8-1/2 inch hand. So obviously I, too, should be able to get drafted. (Even though I'm in my 70s, only 5-11, have never played organized basketball and used to be able to weakly palm the ball.) ;)

[Greg_Newton]

Fun fact - Jon Scheyer and Greivis Vasquez tied for 2nd-smallest hands in recorded history of the combine with 7.75". Kyle was also close at 8.25", with only other two players his size having smaller hands. Must be something in the water. Duke doesn't develop... hands?

Anyway, this is all pretty fun for me to watch play out, because I've always been somewhat amusedly baffled by the claims coming from Duke/Miles about his athletic ability. I mean, if everything they've said is true, he's the best physical post prospect seen since Shaq. In an interview from a couple of years ago, for example, he claimed to have a 44-45" running vert. Which would easliy give him the highest max vert reach in NBA history...

I also think it's kind of funny that all of the "...for a 7-footer" talk seems to be based on the measurements from a camp last summer at which Miles' and Mason's measurements were (assumedly) switched. I can't imagine that it wasn't Mason that was 6'11.5" in shoes with a 7' wingspan, while Miles was actually 6'10 in shoes with a 6'11 wingspan. I'll be interested to see what the combine measurements show.

Lastly, I think the hand-size revelation is pretty significant; surely his "hands" became a mental issue at some point, but he really does have extraordinarily small hands for a 6'10 NBA prospect (no offense, Jim!). It's a lot easier to swallow the ball up powerfully with Shaq-like paws with normal-human hands, and that probably explains the missed dunks also; he probably has some issues with palming. On the flip side, I suppose it could help him in developing a reliable/repeatable jumper.

Anyway, it seems like he could fall somewhere between the disposable ~6'10 jumping jacks on 2nd/3rd teams of which you can never have too many and a Nick Collison-type of player - super active, willing to screen, muscle, do the dirty work, hit the o-boards, etc. I do think it ultimately comes down to how bad he wants it, and whether he can get out of his own way enough to be an effective rotation player in the NBA; will his game translate more like Nick Collison's or the unfortunate Cole Aldrich's? The guys he'll be competing with won't be dropping passes or missing layups, but if he can slow things down a bit and play reliably within his role, he'll always have a chance.

[Greg_Newton]

....Oh, and quick question: despite all of the recent hysteria, does Zoubek's injury-induced retirement constitute the only non-transfer, top-100 PF/C we've had since Casey Sanders that hasn't played for years in the NBA, excluding transfers? Shelden, Shav, McRoberts, Lance and Kyle* all made it, plus Deng and Dunleavy if you count stretch guys who manned the PF spot for us. I suppose you could argue Horvath or McClure, but Horvath wasn't a top-100 recruit and McClure was a SF.

It would sure be great to add Miles, Mason and Ryan to that list in the next couple of years.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Miles should be in his element at these workouts and will really shine, enhancing his draft status! We've been told repeatedly that his problem is translating what he does in practice into what he does in games. We finally saw that difference lesson some this year (at times). Hopefully the right GM, coach (and sports psychologist) will eliminate that problem for Miles entirely!

[JBDuke]

So does this mean Erving actually had an 82" vertical? ;)

Nope. It was only 41", but he stayed up twice as long as everyone else. :-)

[Newton_14]

How does one measure a hand? Wrist to end of middle finger? Or tip of pinky to tip of thumb with hand splayed?

Wouldn't a better way to determine the playing potential of a hand be to see if the player's hand can grasp the ball from the top and hold it strongly?

Now Jim, you know that the cinder-block is the only officially recognized measurement tool at DBR! We need photo's of Miles hands beside a pair of cinder-blocks and we also need photo's of Miles palming a cinder-block!.

[UrinalCake]

Forget a big man coach, duke needs to hire a big HANDS coach. Maybe Michael Phelps, I understand he's got huge, flipper-like mitts.

I would think that having hands that were too big would make it harder to shoot, and possibly dribble. Supposedly for shaq, holding a basketball is like a normal person holding a softball. Hard to control.

[Jim3k]

Now Jim, you know that the cinder-block is the only officially recognized measurement tool at DBR! We need photo's of Miles hands beside a pair of cinder-blocks and we also need photo's of Miles palming a cinder-block!.

I tried the cinder block, but when I put it on my hand, I hurt myself. those things are he-av-y. So then I tried to palm it, but it slipped and fell on my toe. :(

[jimsumner]

Nope. It was only 41", but he stayed up twice as long as everyone else. :-)

I think it was Connie Hawkins, of whom it was said that he could take a dollar bill off the top of the backboard and leave change.

[Indoor66]

Forget a big man coach, duke needs to hire a big HANDS coach. Maybe Michael Phelps, I understand he's got huge, flipper-like mitts.

Why would you turn to anyone except our own Elton Brand? He has hands the size of catcher's mitts.

[MChambers]

Why would you turn to anyone except our own Elton Brand? He has hands the size of catcher's mitts.

This (the relatively small size of our big men's hands) is the real reason Wojo coaches the bigs.

[CDu]

....Oh, and quick question: despite all of the recent hysteria, does Zoubek's injury-induced retirement constitute the only non-transfer, top-100 PF/C we've had since Casey Sanders that hasn't played for years in the NBA, excluding transfers? Shelden, Shav, McRoberts, Lance and Kyle* all made it, plus Deng and Dunleavy if you count stretch guys who manned the PF spot for us. I suppose you could argue Horvath or McClure, but Horvath wasn't a top-100 recruit and McClure was a SF.

It would sure be great to add Miles, Mason and Ryan to that list in the next couple of years.

Well, I wouldn't include Deng, Dunleavy, or Singler in that category, even though all three played PF or C for at least one year in college (in Deng's case, it was his only year; in Dunleavy's case it was his last year; in Singler's case it was his first 2 years). If you're including Singler, Deng, and Dunleavy, you have to include McClure (who rarely played SF at Duke and certainly played it less than Singler or Dunleavy).

Also, I think it is a bit early to say that Thomas has played for years in the NBA. And Singler has yet to actually play a game in the NBA (though he presumably will at some point).

So if you tweak the question to say "played PF/C in the NBA", then I believe it is correct. Though I don't think McRoberts, Thomas, Williams, and Randolph are shining examples of Duke guys making it in the context of the real discussion point. Even though those guys have made good money, recruits aren't going to look at them and say "see, Duke big men clearly make it in the league."

[hq2]

So if you tweak the question to say "played PF/C in the NBA", then I believe it is correct. Though I don't think McRoberts, Thomas, Williams, and Randolph are shining examples of Duke guys making it in the context of the real discussion point. Even though those guys have made good money, recruits aren't going to look at them and say "see, Duke big men clearly make it in the league."

Yeah, none of our bigs since Brand and Boozer have done that well in the pros. Both Shav and McBobs
came in very highly rated as well, and had fair/disappointing Duke careers. No one in recent years
stands out as much of a good example to point out to for recruits.

[Greg_Newton]

Well, I wouldn't include Deng, Dunleavy, or Singler in that category, even though all three played PF or C for at least one year in college (in Deng's case, it was his only year; in Dunleavy's case it was his last year; in Singler's case it was his first 2 years). If you're including Singler, Deng, and Dunleavy, you have to include McClure (who rarely played SF at Duke and certainly played it less than Singler or Dunleavy).

Also, I think it is a bit early to say that Thomas has played for years in the NBA. And Singler has yet to actually play a game in the NBA (though he presumably will at some point).

So if you tweak the question to say "played PF/C in the NBA", then I believe it is correct. Though I don't think McRoberts, Thomas, Williams, and Randolph are shining examples of Duke guys making it in the context of the real discussion point. Even though those guys have made good money, recruits aren't going to look at them and say "see, Duke big men clearly make it in the league."

Hmmm... damn McClure, with his selfless paying-out-position and ruining my theory.

Maybe instead, would it be truthful to say that "save for Zoubek's injury-induced retirement and transfers, every top 70 RSCI recruit to see significant minutes at the PF/C for Duke since the class of '99 (which produced an multi-year NBA all-star PF, I might add) has played multiple years in the NBA, except for Lance (an NBA rookie) and Kyle (a drafted rookie who is being recruited to come back and play for his NBA team)?" If you exclude the NBA star wings who manned the stretch 4 for us, you could amend that to "every top 100 RSCI PF/C recruit", as McClure was a SF in HS.

I know it's not exactly the same as pointing to a Kevin Love, but I hadn't really realized that for a top 70-100 big man coming to Duke - even in the famously "terrible" Wojo era of big man coaching - your worst-case scenario is playing in the NBA (assuming your health doesn't end your career).

I wonder how many other schools can say that over the past decade. UNC certainly can't.

[CDu]

I know it's not exactly the same as pointing to a Kevin Love, but I hadn't really realized that for a top 70-100 big man coming to Duke - even in the famously "terrible" Wojo era of big man coaching - your worst-case scenario is playing in the NBA (assuming your health doesn't end your career).

I wonder how many other schools can say that over the past decade. UNC certainly can't.

It sounds nice when you say it that way. But if you take into account that all of those bigs was a top-25 prospect it sounds much less impressive. You are supposed to get almost all of your top-25 prospects into the League. If you limit it to top-25 prospects, I'd guess that many teams make that cut (including UNC). And over the past decade, UNC has also had only one top-70 big man not make it to the League (Deon Thompson).

If anything, we've probably underproduced with our big men (relative to their high school rankings). We keep getting these top-25 big men and only a couple have had any real impact in the League. And the guys that made the impact left Duke 10 years ago and 13 years ago, so the kids we're recruiting now were barely (if at all) in school when those guys played at Duke.

[Greg_Newton]

It sounds nice when you say it that way. But if you take into account that all of those bigs was a top-25 prospect it sounds much less impressive. You are supposed to get almost all of your top-25 prospects into the League. If you limit it to top-25 prospects, I'd guess that many teams make that cut (including UNC). And over the past decade, UNC has also had only one top-70 big man not make it to the League (Deon Thompson).

Yeah, well... that's a fair point.

Of course, Miles sticking in the League would change that, and Deon is still one more flop than Duke has had, as per my narrowly defined criteria. I realize that throwing out injury-ended careers is sort of like throwing out non-job seekers from the unemployment rate, but whatever.

However, I disagree that it's a given that top 25 big men are shoo-ins for the league. If you look at the HS classes of 2004-2007 - the recruiting cycle before the 2011 draft - 11 college-bound big men either failed to make the league or failed made it through a full season before flaming out (Richard Hendrix, Keith Brumbaugh, Brandon Costner, Korvotney Barber, Derrick Caracter, Duke Crews, Stanley Robinson, Gani Lawal, Gary Johnson, Juan Palacios and Mike Williams). That's not an insubstantial number - it's 28% of the top 25 RSCI college-bound big men.

Of course, that number might be slightly different had the draft not been open in 2004-2005, but I'd guess it would still be around 20%. Still a fairly substantial difference from our rate.


If anything, we've probably underproduced with our big men (relative to their high school rankings). We keep getting these top-25 big men and only a couple have had any real impact in the League. And the guys that made the impact left Duke 10 years ago and 13 years ago, so the kids we're recruiting now were barely (if at all) in school when those guys played at Duke.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, I'm just pointing out that we've been remarkably consistent in getting our big guys to the NBA, despite the perception that Duke is where big men go to set screens then head to Europe. If the worst case scenario is a second-round pick and a few years on an NBA salary to make an impression in the league... well, that's not really so bad, is it?

[CDu]

However, I disagree that it's a given that top 25 big men are shoo-ins for the league. If you look at the HS classes of 2004-2007 - the recruiting cycle before the 2011 draft - 11 college-bound big men either failed to make the league or failed made it through a full season before flaming out (Richard Hendrix, Keith Brumbaugh, Brandon Costner, Korvotney Barber, Derrick Caracter, Duke Crews, Stanley Robinson, Gani Lawal, Gary Johnson, Juan Palacios and Mike Williams). That's not an insubstantial number - it's 28% of the top 25 RSCI college-bound big men. Of course, that number might be slightly different had the draft not been open in 2004-2005, but I'd guess it would still be around 20%. Still a fairly substantial difference from our rate.

Well, Stanley Robinson is borderline. He played SF at UConn and definitely. But Caracter shouldn't be on your list. He played with the Lakers for 1.5 seasons (though he didn't see a game this season before being waived in February) and made over $750,000. And Duke Crews got kicked off Tennessee's team and finished his career at Bowie State, so he shouldn't be there, either. Williams trasnferred, too. And Brumbaugh got kicked out of Oklahoma State before ever playing, then transferred to two different JuCo schools, so his inclusion is suspect. So we'll say about 80-90% (depending upon if you include straight-to-NBA guys that would likely have still made it had they gone to college for a year) of top-25 big men made it to the NBA from that list. That would suggest that you are supposed to get your top-25 bigs to the league (I didn't say it was a given - just that you're supposed to do it).

So we're above average with regard to getting our top-25 guys in. I'd imagine that several other teams are as well. UNC, for example, definitely is (Thompson is their only miss and he was outside the top-40). Same for UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, Florida, and Georgetown. Basically, everyone but Alabama, NC State, Auburn, UConn (and only if you count Robinson as a PF), Louisville, Minnesota (Rickert in 2001), Villanova (though Jason Fraser is basically the same story as Zoubek), Wisconsin (Butch), Texas, and Georgia Tech has a perfect resume since 2001.

[BD80]

... If anything, we've probably underproduced with our big men (relative to their high school rankings). We keep getting these top-25 big men and only a couple have had any real impact in the League. And the guys that made the impact left Duke 10 years ago and 13 years ago, so the kids we're recruiting now were barely (if at all) in school when those guys played at Duke.

How many top-25 big men have made any real impact in the league?

The 2012 all-star c/pf were: East - Howard (high school), Bosh (top 25?), Hibbert (top 25?) & Deng? (6' 9")

West - Love, Griffin (top 25?), Marc Gasol (foreign), Nowitski (foreign).

Not much room for ANY college coach to claim success in developing top 25 big men.

Who are the other impact big men? Does calipari get "credit" for "developing" Cousins - a talented headcase that needs COACHING? Monroe took 4 years of college and is still improving going into his 3rd NBA season.

[CDu]

How many top-25 big men have made any real impact in the league?

The 2012 all-star c/pf were: East - Howard (high school), Bosh (top 25?), Hibbert (top 25?) & Deng? (6' 9")

West - Love, Griffin (top 25?), Marc Gasol (foreign), Nowitski (foreign).

Not much room for ANY college coach to claim success in developing top 25 big men.

Who are the other impact big men? Does calipari get "credit" for "developing" Cousins - a talented headcase that needs COACHING? Monroe took 4 years of college and is still improving going into his 3rd NBA season.

Deng is a SF, so knock him off the list. And I'd say you're being awfully restrictive by setting "impact" at "All-Star" level.

There's Love, Bosh, Powe, Humphries, Bass, Villanueva, Aldridge, Hansbrough, Oden, Hawes, Young, Lopez, Arthur, Beasley, Hickson, Griffin, Jordan, Randolph, Patterson, Williams, Wright, Mullens, Monroe, Davis, Favors, and Cousins have all been regular 20+ mpg, 6+ ppg players in the league. And most of those guys have been 9+ ppg guys, with the ones who fall short being primarily younger guys who are still finding their way. Love, Griffin, Bosh, Humphries, Villanueva, Lopez, Beasley, Aldridge, Cousins, Hickson, and Monroe have all been 13+ ppg guys, while Jordan, Favors, Hawes, Mullens are/were all key starters on playoff teams or guys who are beginning to develop into key starters. Oden would have been a 15+ ppg guy had horrible injuries not destroyed his career.

[Kedsy]

How many top-25 big men have made any real impact in the league?

The 2012 all-star c/pf were: East - Howard (high school), Bosh (top 25?), Hibbert (top 25?) & Deng? (6' 9")

West - Love, Griffin (top 25?), Marc Gasol (foreign), Nowitski (foreign).

Not much room for ANY college coach to claim success in developing top 25 big men.

Who are the other impact big men? Does calipari get "credit" for "developing" Cousins - a talented headcase that needs COACHING? Monroe took 4 years of college and is still improving going into his 3rd NBA season.

Howard was #1 in 2004. Bosh was #5 in 2002. Deng was #2 in 2003; Love was #2 and Griffin was #16 in 2007. As far as I can tell, Hibbert wasn't even top 100. Obviously, Gasol and Nowitzki were never high school recruits.

Also, other than Hibbert, none of the players you name above played more than two college seasons, and only Griffin played as many as two. The others all played one or zero. Can you really "develop" a player over one season? Maybe, maybe not. If not, then the only coaches who can claim development of 2012 All Stars are JT III (Georgetown) and Jeff Capel (Duke assistant). If you can develop a guy in one year, then add Coach K (Duke), Paul Hewitt (George Mason), and Ben Howland (UCLA). Interesting that one team's coaching staff comes up twice on that list.

On the other hand, recruits just don't think that way.

[Greg_Newton]

Well, Stanley Robinson is borderline. He played SF at UConn and definitely. But Caracter shouldn't be on your list. He played with the Lakers for 1.5 seasons (though he didn't see a game this season before being waived in February) and made over $750,000. And Duke Crews got kicked off Tennessee's team and finished his career at Bowie State, so he shouldn't be there, either. Williams trasnferred, too. And Brumbaugh got kicked out of Oklahoma State before ever playing, then transferred to two different JuCo schools, so his inclusion is suspect.

I'm not sure why transfers or meltdowns shouldn't count as Top 25 big men not making the league; I suppose you'd have to throw them out to do an apples-to-apples comparison of Duke's non-transfer success rate, but I don't believe Duke has had any top 25 bigs transfer during that time period anyway (Boateng, Boykin and Thompson were all lower ranked). So if we're modifying the original premise to include only top 25 bigs making the league, there's no need to throw out transfers. They're still top 25 big men who went to college elsewhere than Duke and never made the league.

Fair point about Robinson; I was just going by RSCI positional listings. Not sure I agree about Caracter, though; he was demoted to the NBDL before his rookie season ended, and never saw a minute of action afterward. I guess he was a towel boy for the first month of the following season before being demoted and waived (wikipedia and ESPN didn't mention that), but I mean... the guy has less NBA experience than Lance Thomas already has.


So we're above average with regard to getting our top-25 guys in. ...Basically, everyone but Alabama, NC State, Auburn, UConn (and only if you count Robinson as a PF), Louisville, Minnesota (Rickert in 2001), Villanova (though Jason Fraser is basically the same story as Zoubek), Wisconsin (Butch), Texas, and Georgia Tech has a perfect resume since 2001.

Of course, going 4-4 - potentially 6-6 if Miles does, in fact, get his shot and we count Kyle when he repatriates (Which we really should; the guy was recruited as a PF and played exclusively PF/C until he was an upperclassmen. If that's not skill "development", I don't know what is.) - and possibly even 8-8 in a couple of years if Miles and Ryan both find a spot - is a monumentally better resume than a school who's just 1-1 or 2-2, like the vast majority of other schools.

But in any case, I'd certainly settle for "above average" and equivalent to schools like UNC and UK when it comes to the perception of how well we get our big men to the league. Lord knows that's not how recruits see us now, thus my whole point. I'm not trying to convince you that we've been some hotshot post player factory over the past decade or something like that.

[CDu]

I'm not sure why transfers or meltdowns shouldn't count as Top 25 big men not making the league; I suppose you'd have to throw them out to do an apples-to-apples comparison of Duke's non-transfer success rate, but I don't believe Duke has had any top 25 bigs transfer during that time period anyway (Boateng, Boykin and Thompson were all lower ranked). So if we're modifying the original premise to include only top 25 bigs making the league, there's no need to throw out transfers. They're still top 25 big men who went to college elsewhere than Duke and never made the league.

I was using your original premise of non-transfers. If you want to bring transfers back and only include top-25, that's fair. Add a a JuCo school and Tennessee to the list.


Of course, going 4-4 - potentially 6-6 if Miles does, in fact, get his shot and we count Kyle when he repatriates (Which we really should; the guy was recruited as a PF and played exclusively PF/C until he was an upperclassmen. If that's not skill "development", I don't know what is.) - and possibly even 8-8 in a couple of years if Miles and Ryan both find a spot - is a monumentally better resume than a school who's just 1-1 or 2-2, like the vast majority of other schools.

Singler has no business being on the list. He was recruited as a WF (per RSCI), played half of his time as a SF, and will be a SF in the League. Nobody is looking at him as evidence that Duke does well with their big men. Including him in your list is "getting cute".

I'll be surprised if Kelly finds a spot. And I think it's misleading to drop Zoubek. I don't think he'd have stuck in the NBA. He got a tryout with the Nets and didn't make it. I think it's more fair to say 4-5 and potentially 6-7 (more likely 5-7). Remember: Miles doesn't count if you're only looking at top-25 guys. If you want to include him, then we probably have to include Boykin, Boateng, Thompson, and Czyz as misses (if you're dropping the transfer restriction).


But in any case, I'd certainly settle for "above average" and equivalent to schools like UNC and UK when it comes to the perception of how well we get our big men to the league. Lord knows that's not how recruits see us now, thus my whole point. I'm not trying to convince you that we've been some hotshot post player factory over the past decade or something like that.

No disagreement there. We haven't been as successful as UCLA, Kentucky, Georgetown, Kansas, or Ohio State in terms of producing impact-quality bigs. But we've had similar success at least getting guys into the league, which is nice. I don't think it registers with recruits, but that's for the coaches to handle, not us.

[jimrowe0]

Not to knock Miles, but I think he should play in the NFL. I always thought that he would be a great tight end. He has plenty of athleticism and enough talent to play in the NBA, but I would love to see him in the NFL.

[nmduke2001]

Not to knock Miles, but I think he should play in the NFL. I always thought that he would be a great tight end. He has plenty of athleticism and enough talent to play in the NBA, but I would love to see him in the NFL.

I started a thread about this very topic a few months ago and was roundly criticized. However, I am with you; Miles could be an incredible tight end. Just think of a 6’-10" tight end with a 41” vertical. He would be unstoppable in the red zone. Just lob the ball 11 feet in the air and the defenders would be unable to stop it.

[Indoor66]

I started a thread about this very topic a few months ago and was roundly criticized. However, I am with you; Miles could be an incredible tight end. Just think of a 6’-10" tight end with a 41” vertical. He would be unstoppable in the red zone. Just lob the ball 11 feet in the air and the defenders would be unable to stop it.

Of course, the second time they did this a defensive back would break him in half.

[UrinalCake]

Quote from this link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/02/draft.notebook.santa.barbara/index.html

...the 6-11, 225-pounder not only played well but wowed those on hand with his hops, registering leading vertical leaps in the "with steps" category (41 inches) and "without steps" (34 inches) that were the best of the 14 prospects on Thursday

I think this is an important distinction that has slipped through the cracks of this thread. The numbers I posted earlier and that others have mentioned regarding vertical leaps of other NBA players were all STANDING (without steps) numbers. The 41" that Miles put up was a running leap. So his 34" is really the number we should be comparing. Still extremely impressive, but not six inches higher than Dwight Howard.

[zoroaster]

I agree that Miles's numbers seem almost too good to be true, but fwiw, I do believe the numbers for the other players were (mostly, at least) vertical leaps with steps, too. Dwight Howard's really is just 35.5" for max vertical, according to Draft Express (his no-step vertical is 30.5"). I don't know how to explain the discrepancy (although several posters' explanations have made sense to me)..

[tommy]

I was using your original premise of non-transfers. If you want to bring transfers back and only include top-25, that's fair. Add a a JuCo school and Tennessee to the list.



Singler has no business being on the list. He was recruited as a WF (per RSCI), played half of his time as a SF, and will be a SF in the League. Nobody is looking at him as evidence that Duke does well with their big men. Including him in your list is "getting cute".

I'll be surprised if Kelly finds a spot. And I think it's misleading to drop Zoubek. I don't think he'd have stuck in the NBA. He got a tryout with the Nets and didn't make it. I think it's more fair to say 4-5 and potentially 6-7 (more likely 5-7). Remember: Miles doesn't count if you're only looking at top-25 guys. If you want to include him, then we probably have to include Boykin, Boateng, Thompson, and Czyz as misses (if you're dropping the transfer restriction).



No disagreement there. We haven't been as successful as UCLA, Kentucky, Georgetown, Kansas, or Ohio State in terms of producing impact-quality bigs. But we've had similar success at least getting guys into the league, which is nice. I don't think it registers with recruits, but that's for the coaches to handle, not us.

I know we've covered this in other threads, but granting Georgetown, who would you say have been the "impact-quality bigs" produced by the other schools you've named, in the last 20 years? I don't think the list(s) will be long.

[CDu]

I know we've covered this in other threads, but granting Georgetown, who would you say have been the "impact-quality bigs" produced by the other schools you've named, in the last 20 years? I don't think the list(s) will be long.

Well, the discussion was in the last decade, not the last 20 years. As for those other schools:
UCLA: Love
UNC: Hansbrough and Davis, with perhaps Zeller and Henson adding to the list
Ohio State: Mullens and Oden (when healthy, he was good), with Sullinger adding to the list
Kentucky: Cousins and Patterson, with Davis adding to the list
Kansas: Morris averaged 7.7ppg as a rookie, and Thomas Robinson possibly will add to the list

For reference, when I say "impact", I'm talking about guys who are regularly starters or 20+ mpg guys. In terms of 15+ ppg "stars", all but UCLA and Kentucky become questionable. But even at the lower threshold of impact, our guys have fallen short over the last decade.

[Marty10]

From Chad Ford's ESPN Insider blog today:


Duke's Miles Plumlee didn't wow anyone in four years at Duke, but he's generating significant buzz thanks to some great individual workouts and a strong performance in the Minnesota group workout last weekend.

[CDu]

From Chad Ford's blog today

As a Bulls fan, I'm very interested in Miles. The Bulls, for luxury tax reasons, may lose 4-5 of their key role players (including backup C Omer Asik). As such, they may be in the market for a defensive-minded big man who can rebound, run, and doesn't mind being a role player. Miles would fit VERY nicely with Noah, Boozer, and Gibson. I'd love to see the Bulls take him late in the 2nd round (they'd have to acquire such a pick, but that's pretty easy these days) and have him replace Asik for a savings of $10-15 million per year (when you consider the luxury tax, which doubles a player's cost). The Bulls have a track record of acquiring former Duke guys (and with pretty good results for the most part). Hopefully that continues.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

As a Bulls fan, I'm very interested in Miles. The Bulls, for luxury tax reasons, may lose 4-5 of their key role players (including backup C Omer Asik). As such, they may be in the market for a defensive-minded big man who can rebound, run, and doesn't mind being a role player. Miles would fit VERY nicely with Noah, Boozer, and Gibson. I'd love to see the Bulls take him late in the 2nd round (they'd have to acquire such a pick, but that's pretty easy these days) and have him replace Asik for a savings of $10-15 million per year (when you consider the luxury tax, which doubles a player's cost). The Bulls have a track record of acquiring former Duke guys (and with pretty good results for the most part). Hopefully that continues.

...although dumping Elton Brand was one of their dumbest moves ever... Tyson Chandler... please...

[UrinalCake]

From Chad Ford's blog today

I am equal parts excited about Miles' NBA prospects and concerned about the ongoing "big man perception" issue. I know I sort of joked about it earlier in this thread, but as Miles's stock continues to rise, the natural question for high school prospects is going to be, "Why didn't Duke use him more?" When you've got NBA insiders such as Chad Ford casually writing it off as "Duke is a guard-oriented school who rarely called plays for him," that really doesn't look good.

[jv001]

I am equal parts excited about Miles' NBA prospects and concerned about the ongoing "big man perception" issue. I know I sort of joked about it earlier in this thread, but as Miles's stock continues to rise, the natural question for high school prospects is going to be, "Why didn't Duke use him more?" When you've got NBA insiders such as Chad Ford casually writing it off as "Duke is a guard-oriented school who rarely called plays for him," that really doesn't look good.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the post. If Miles get's selected, makes an NBA roster and excels there will be the question of why didn't he do that at Duke. Then of course the question will come up again as why Duke cannot produce "big men" for the NBA. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

I am equal parts excited about Miles' NBA prospects and concerned about the ongoing "big man perception" issue. I know I sort of joked about it earlier in this thread, but as Miles's stock continues to rise, the natural question for high school prospects is going to be, "Why didn't Duke use him more?" When you've got NBA insiders such as Chad Ford casually writing it off as "Duke is a guard-oriented school who rarely called plays for him," that really doesn't look good.

A rich NBA career is a rich NBA career, whether or not you averaged 15 and ten in college, and success by Miles will help Duke with recruiting. There are plenty of examples of players who blossomed in the NBA after not starring in college. I'll have to think of examples beyond Matt Geiger, Jack Sikma, birdman in Denver.

sagegrouse

[Billy Dat]

I was thinking the same thing when I read the post. If Miles get's selected, makes an NBA roster and excels there will be the question of why didn't he do that at Duke. Then of course the question will come up again as why Duke cannot produce "big men" for the NBA. GoDuke!

The anti-Duke lobby will always use whatever result to suit their argument, but it will be tough to argue, if Miles becomes an NBA player, that he did it in spite of Duke. Unless, of course, he becomes some kind of offensive powerhouse. If he becomes Jeff Foster, an energy guy that gobbles rebounds, bangs, defends and gets some garbage baskets and hits some face up jumpers, they'll say that is exactly what he was at Duke but the more free flowing NBA game and its 6 fouls allowed his talents to flourish.

[Kedsy]

I am equal parts excited about Miles' NBA prospects and concerned about the ongoing "big man perception" issue. I know I sort of joked about it earlier in this thread, but as Miles's stock continues to rise, the natural question for high school prospects is going to be, "Why didn't Duke use him more?" When you've got NBA insiders such as Chad Ford casually writing it off as "Duke is a guard-oriented school who rarely called plays for him," that really doesn't look good.

On the other hand, he says GMs look at Miles as a "athletic rebounder and shot blocker off the bench," which is pretty much exactly the role he played at Duke. The way I see it, Duke took the #81 high school recruit in the country and turned him into a guy who everyone is excited about going into the draft. Looks pretty good from that angle.

[CDu]

...although dumping Elton Brand was one of their dumbest moves ever... Tyson Chandler... please...

Don't get me started on Jerry Krause. The man set the organization back a decade. If we hadn't lucked into the #1 pick to get Rose, we'd still be mired in mediocrity.

[CDu]

On the other hand, he says GMs look at Miles as a "athletic rebounder and shot blocker off the bench," which is pretty much exactly the role he played at Duke. The way I see it, Duke took the #81 high school recruit in the country and turned him into a guy who everyone is excited about going into the draft. Looks pretty good from that angle.

Yeah, I think teams need to do a better job of identifying guys for roles in their organization. If you're looking for an athletic big man who is unselfish, smart, team-oriented, and not afraid to rebound and defend for 10-15 mpg, Plumlee is potentially a great option. You'll probably have to live with some bumps and bruises along the way as he learns the ropes. But there's no reason a guy at that size with that athleticism can't fill an energy/effort/defense role. Yet teams seem to be too often trying to find a diamond in the rough in the second round, which is often fools' gold.

[Jim3k]

A rich NBA career is a rich NBA career, whether or not you averaged 15 and ten in college, and success by Miles will help Duke with recruiting. There are plenty of examples of players who blossomed in the NBA after not starring in college. I'll have to think of examples beyond Matt Geiger, Jack Sikma, birdman in Denver.

sagegrouse

Ultimate example: Mark Eaton

[miramar]

Ultimate example: Mark Eaton

There is nothing like the Mark Eaton story for another reason. An assistant coach at a JC saw him when he was the world's tallest auto mechanic at 7'4", with his legs sticking out under a car, and encouraged him to try out. After JC ball, Eaton didn't do much at UCLA, but Wilt Chamberlain visited practice one time and told him that if he concentrated on defense, rebounding, and getting the ball to the guards and he would be fine. (It's a good thing that Wilt didn't tell him to set screens as well or Miles's coach would have said how little he knew about playing center.)

Another example from UCLA is Sven Nater, who never started a game for the Bruins but played 11 years in the ABA and NBA.

[lotusland]

Ultimate example: Mark Eaton

Where is Mark? He should be our big man coach:D

[sagegrouse]

Ultimate example: Mark Eaton

Thanks for the prompt, Jim. You must have known I had this phrase in my post before I edited it out: "... birdman in Denver, plus some big dude in Utah whose name I can't remember."

sage

[jimsumner]

Marty Nessley, Matt Wenstrom, Geoff Crompton, Kevin Salvadori and Ivano Newbill all cashed NBA checks.

None stuck around very long but all somewhat proved the adage that you can't teach height.

[hq2]

Marty Nessley, Matt Wenstrom, Geoff Crompton, Kevin Salvadori and Ivano Newbill all cashed NBA checks.

None stuck around very long but all somewhat proved the adage that you can't teach height.

Not to mention Chuck Nevitt, who was 7'-5" and couldn't do anything.

[gumbomoop]

Looks like NBA draft combine will be televised live today (Friday 6/8) on ESPNU, 10 am - 2 pm, with replay of part of it Friday eve, also on ESPNU, 7-9 pm.

[budwom]

Not to mention Chuck Nevitt, who was 7'-5" and couldn't do anything.

Chuck could change ceiling light bulbs without a ladder. YOU try that...

[jimsumner]

Not to mention Chuck Nevitt, who was 7'-5" and couldn't do anything.

Nevitt hung around forever. Best 12th man in NBA history.

[Billy Dat]

Marty Nessley, Matt Wenstrom, Geoff Crompton, Kevin Salvadori and Ivano Newbill all cashed NBA checks.

None stuck around very long but all somewhat proved the adage that you can't teach height.

That era has largely come and gone, as fun as it was. It's rare that you see as many novelty 7 foot stiffs as you used to. One of the great happenings of that era was Manute Bol developing a decent 3 point shot.

[BD80]

Not to mention Chuck Nevitt, who was 7'-5" and couldn't do anything.

His freshman year he couldn't dunk a basketball in the lay-up lines. He could dunk if standing beside the hoop, but he couldn't coordinate an effort starting past the free throw line. We may have had some fun at his expense, which only compounded his struggles.

[CDu]

That era has largely come and gone, as fun as it was. It's rare that you see as many novelty 7 foot stiffs as you used to. One of the great happenings of that era was Manute Bol developing a decent 3 point shot.

Yeah, the average big man (both PF and C) is much more skilled away from the basket and offenses are much better at exploiting a lack of skill/athleticism today than they were years ago. As such, the man-mountain is largely a thing of the past. If you can't move well defensively, it's hard to keep you on the court.

[gwlaw99]

Miles Combine Measurements (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&source=NBA%20Draft%20Combine&sort=2). 6'10.5 without shoes which was the 4th tallest. 7'1 wingspan. 250lbs. Here is a stat I wasn't expecting. 11.4 percent body fat. Second worst at the combine. I imagine his vertical would improve even more if he got that down to 7%.

[CDu]

Miles Combine Measurements (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&source=NBA%20Draft%20Combine&sort=2). 6'10.5 without shoes which was the 4th tallest. 7'1 wingspan. 250lbs. Here is a stat I wasn't expecting. 11.4 percent body fat. Second worst at the combine. I imagine his vertical would improve even more if he got that down to 7%.

I can't believe he has a higher body fat% than Fab Melo and Sullinger. Not that those other two guys are fat; just that Miles looks in better shape than those two. Weird.

[Edouble]

Miles Combine Measurements (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&source=NBA%20Draft%20Combine&sort=2). 6'10.5 without shoes which was the 4th tallest. 7'1 wingspan. 250lbs. Here is a stat I wasn't expecting. 11.4 percent body fat. Second worst at the combine. I imagine his vertical would improve even more if he got that down to 7%.

Thanks for the link. Miles' hands are larger here (9.25') than the reports earlier in this thread (8').

[gwlaw99]

I can't believe he has a higher body fat% than Fab Melo and Sullinger. Not that those other two guys are fat; just that Miles looks in better shape than those two. Weird.

The more I think about it, the more I think that must be a misprint. No way Miles has that much body fat. This is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfHjNGSHM-o)of a recent workout. At 58 seconds he has his shirt off and looks like he has very little body fat.

[FellowTraveler]

I can't believe he has a higher body fat% than Fab Melo and Sullinger. Not that those other two guys are fat; just that Miles looks in better shape than those two. Weird.

It wouldn't stun me. And it might be skewed a bit by recent training. A lot of guys work on getting in the best possible shape going into the combine & team workouts. It wouldn't surprise me if Miles, knowing he'd impress with his size & leaping ability, focused more on skills -- refining the jumper, etc. Obviously, that's just conjecture, but it's what I'd do if I were him,* and it could result in a situation in which guys like Sullinger had a little more body fat than Plumlee three months ago and a little less now.

* Unless of course I was being advised by someone who actually knew what he was doing that this was a mistake...

[COYS]

It wouldn't stun me. And it might be skewed a bit by recent training. A lot of guys work on getting in the best possible shape going into the combine & team workouts. It wouldn't surprise me if Miles, knowing he'd impress with his size & leaping ability, focused more on skills -- refining the jumper, etc. Obviously, that's just conjecture, but it's what I'd do if I were him,* and it could result in a situation in which guys like Sullinger had a little more body fat than Plumlee three months ago and a little less now.

* Unless of course I was being advised by someone who actually knew what he was doing that this was a mistake...

I can't find it just yet, but I also recall some posters saying that Miles had something like 4% body fat when he showed up at the NC ProAm two years ago

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Have they officially measured his vertical jump at the combine?

[jimsumner]

It's clear that Miles has added a significant amount of body fat in his hands.

[Indoor66]

It's clear that Miles has added a significant amount of body fat in his hands.

That always happens as the fingers get longer,

[UrinalCake]

So when the NBA lists his stats, will they round his height up to 7'0"? Being able to call yourself a seven footer definitely "sounds" a lot better when you're trying to sell yourself as a center.

Also, this is off-topic but Austin measured at 6'-3.5" without shoes and 6'5" with, 205 lb. I expected him to be an inch or two shorter than that and a little lighter. Excellent height for a point guard, and I think teams could envision him getting by as a combo guard as well at that size.

[Lennies]

Those body fat measurements are all messed up. They have John Henson and Fab Melo at basically the same fat percentage...

[Kedsy]

A rich NBA career is a rich NBA career, whether or not you averaged 15 and ten in college, and success by Miles will help Duke with recruiting. There are plenty of examples of players who blossomed in the NBA after not starring in college. I'll have to think of examples beyond Matt Geiger, Jack Sikma, birdman in Denver.

sagegrouse

I'm not sure Matt Geiger belongs on this list. He averaged 11+ ppg and 6+ rpg for his career, with highs of 15.9 ppg his sophomore year (at Auburn) and 7.3 rpg his senior year (at Georgia Tech).

[sagegrouse]

I'm not sure Matt Geiger belongs on this list. He averaged 11+ ppg and 6+ rpg for his career, with highs of 15.9 ppg his sophomore year (at Auburn) and 7.3 rpg his senior year (at Georgia Tech).

I thought of Geiger for two reasons: Laettner fouled him out in about five minutes playing at Cameron. He made the league and eventually signed a huge contract (boy, was that team sorry).

sage

[jimsumner]

Jack Sikma scored over 2,200 points in college.

He sure doesn't belong on any list of college under-achievers.

[CDu]

Have they officially measured his vertical jump at the combine?

They are doing those today. I suspect the numbers will be posted by tomorrow (the physical measurements were taken yesterday and got posted today).

[Greg_Newton]

Very interesting stuff. I'm genuinely surprised that Miles is, in basketball height, a 7-footer. Who'da thunk it?

However, I worry that teams will be concerned about his reach; 8'8.5" is more ideal for a SF (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=6) (for reference, Gerald was 8'6.5", Battier 8'9", Singler 8'10", Deng 9'0.5"). It's a bit perplexing, actually; it's an extreme outlier for someone his size who doesn't have a strangely short wingspan. Actually, he appears to be the tallest player in recorded history to have a reach of 8'8.5" or lower - except for one Tyler Zeller, who came in at 8'8". Miles the enigma...

Really, a lot of the standing reach measurements from yesterday are a little strange, though. Anthony Davis can only reach 9'0? (shorter than Quincy Miller, Carlos Boozer, Derrick Favors, Kris Lang and Luol Deng?) Austin Rivers at 8'1"? (equal to J'Covan Brown, Stephen Curry and J-Will, 2" shorter than Nolan and 4" shorter than Sulaimon?).

The real winner was Henson, who had a spectacular, monster-NBA-center standing reach of 9'3.5" (signficantly higher than Drummond, Davis, and Ezeli, despite having inferior height/wingspan to all three). Really, "arm length" might be a more useful basketball measurement than overall wingspan.

[MChambers]

I thought of Geiger for two reasons: Laettner fouled him out in about five minutes playing at Cameron. He made the league and eventually signed a huge contract (boy, was that team sorry).

sage

I still remember in 1992, when Hurley was out with a broken foot, so Grant Hill was playing point guard, and at a timeout Coach K gave Laettner a rest. Cremins didn't see it coming, so Geiger ended up matched up with Hill, since Hill was the biggest player in the game for Duke. Hill's eyes were as big as saucers when he realized Geiger was on him. Hill did a little shake and bake and drove the lane. Got the foul on Geiger, but missed the shot, I think.

[hq2]

The real winner was Henson, who had a spectacular, monster-NBA-center standing reach of 9'3.5" (signficantly higher than Drummond, Davis, and Ezeli, despite having inferior height/wingspan to all three). Really, "arm length" might be a more useful basketball measurement than overall wingspan.

Yeah, he's in the Sam Perkins long arms club. Still think Sam had the longest wing span; I mean,
the guy could almost scratch his ankles without bending over. Anybody remember the "Long Arms"
signs they use to wave at him in Cameron?

[gwlaw99]

Very interesting stuff. I'm genuinely surprised that Miles is, in basketball height, a 7-footer. Who'da thunk it?

However, I worry that teams will be concerned about his reach; 8'8.5" is more ideal for a SF (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=6) (for reference, Gerald was 8'6.5", Battier 8'9", Singler 8'10", Deng 9'0.5"). It's a bit perplexing, actually; it's an extreme outlier for someone his size who doesn't have a strangely short wingspan. Actually, he appears to be the tallest player in recorded history to have a reach of 8'8.5" or lower - except for one Tyler Zeller, who came in at 8'8". Miles the enigma...

Really, a lot of the standing reach measurements from yesterday are a little strange, though. Anthony Davis can only reach 9'0? (shorter than Quincy Miller, Carlos Boozer, Derrick Favors, Kris Lang and Luol Deng?) Austin Rivers at 8'1"? (equal to J'Covan Brown, Stephen Curry and J-Will, 2" shorter than Nolan and 4" shorter than Sulaimon?).

The real winner was Henson, who had a spectacular, monster-NBA-center standing reach of 9'3.5" (signficantly higher than Drummond, Davis, and Ezeli, despite having inferior height/wingspan to all three). Really, "arm length" might be a more useful basketball measurement than overall wingspan.

Wingspan seems more important for guards who generally defend laterally and reach for bigs who defend vertically.

[luvdahops]

Very interesting stuff. I'm genuinely surprised that Miles is, in basketball height, a 7-footer. Who'da thunk it?

However, I worry that teams will be concerned about his reach; 8'8.5" is more ideal for a SF (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=6) (for reference, Gerald was 8'6.5", Battier 8'9", Singler 8'10", Deng 9'0.5"). It's a bit perplexing, actually; it's an extreme outlier for someone his size who doesn't have a strangely short wingspan. Actually, he appears to be the tallest player in recorded history to have a reach of 8'8.5" or lower - except for one Tyler Zeller, who came in at 8'8". Miles the enigma...

Really, a lot of the standing reach measurements from yesterday are a little strange, though. Anthony Davis can only reach 9'0? (shorter than Quincy Miller, Carlos Boozer, Derrick Favors, Kris Lang and Luol Deng?) Austin Rivers at 8'1"? (equal to J'Covan Brown, Stephen Curry and J-Will, 2" shorter than Nolan and 4" shorter than Sulaimon?).

The real winner was Henson, who had a spectacular, monster-NBA-center standing reach of 9'3.5" (signficantly higher than Drummond, Davis, and Ezeli, despite having inferior height/wingspan to all three). Really, "arm length" might be a more useful basketball measurement than overall wingspan.

Having broad shoulders helps in wingspan and hurts in vertical. This is likely part of the story for Miles. Same was true for Shelden.

[CDu]

Having broad shoulders helps in wingspan and hurts in vertical. This is likely part of the story for Miles. Same was true for Shelden.

It doesn't hurt in vertical - it just hurts in standing reach. Miles seems to be just fine in terms of vertical.

[Greg_Newton]

It doesn't hurt in vertical - it just hurts in standing reach. Miles seems to be just fine in terms of vertical.

Yup - and even there, broad shoulders don't really "hurt", assuming a given height and arm length; they only hurt your standing-reach-in-comparison-to-height-and-wingspan, if that makes any sense. Thus my comment that "arm length" might be a more useful measurement than wingspan, as it would separate out the shoulder width component.

[luvdahops]

It doesn't hurt in vertical - it just hurts in standing reach. Miles seems to be just fine in terms of vertical.

That's correct - the distinction I was trying to make was between wingspan and standing reach. Although I would note that one of the newer things they test at the Combine is "Max Vertical Reach", which would seem to combine standing reach and max vertical leap, so broad shoulders could theoretically "hurt" Miles there as well.

[luvdahops]

Yup - and even there, broad shoulders don't really "hurt", assuming a given height and arm length; they only hurt your standing-reach-in-comparison-to-height-and-wingspan, if that makes any sense. Thus my comment that "arm length" might be a more useful measurement than wingspan, as it would separate out the shoulder width component.

Agreed

[Indoor66]

Now that the shoulders/arm length quandry is finally resolved, how many angels can sit on the head of a pin?

[miramar]

Now that the shoulders/arm length quandry is finally resolved, how many angels can sit on the head of a pin?

Can someone ask Siri? I have an older iphone and have to figure things out for myself (which is probably why I usually get the wrong answer).

[jimsumner]

Siri likely would only tell John Malkovich.

[striker219]

Other than keeping tabs on former Dukies I don't really follow the NBA, but the last page or so of this thread has made me curious about something. Can anyone tell me how NBA cinder blocks compare to college level?

Thanks in advance!

[CDu]

Per Chad Ford, athletic testing results from the combine should be up by early this week. Not really crazy news as those tests were taken on Friday (the measurements were done on Thursday and were posted on Friday). But still, we'll get to see just how well Miles did.

[AtlBluRew]

Now that the shoulders/arm length quandry is finally resolved, how many angels can sit on the head of a pin?

It depends. Is Wojo coaching the angels, or do they have a true "angel coach?"

[Ichabod Drain]

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=&source=NBA Draft Combine&sort=13

Results are up and Miles did pretty great. He had the highest Max Vert Reach and was among the top performers in most other categories.

[nmduke2001]

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=&source=NBA Draft Combine&sort=13

Results are up and Miles did pretty great. He had the highest Max Vert Reach and was among the top performers in most other categories.

Scouts must be impressed. I'm sure Miles will find his niche and make a good living for himself.

I still wonder how incredible he and Mason would have been with Kyrie for an entire year. It would have been lob city.

Here is how Miles tests out historically:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=13

[BD80]

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=&source=NBA Draft Combine&sort=13

Results are up and Miles did pretty great. He had the highest Max Vert Reach and was among the top performers in most other categories.

Way to go Miles! Only one higher vertical in the group - which includes some kids generally considered "great" athletes.

Interesting to compare standing vertical to "max" vertical - which I assume to allow a running start. Festus Ezeli actually did better standing 11' 10", than moving 11' 9.5." Reminds me of Chuck Nevitt, his lack of coordination reduced his ability to jump when moving. Likely a transcription error for Festus, as his standing vertical is listed as better than Miles.

Good athletes improve about 5" when moving. Darius Odom-Johnson improved from 33.5" to 41.5" (highest of the group) when moving.

Another error in data recording? The Black Pigeon: an outstanding 38" standing vertical (highest of the group by nearly 5"), which increased only 1.5" when moving.

[luvdahops]

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2012&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=&source=NBA Draft Combine&sort=13

Results are up and Miles did pretty great. He had the highest Max Vert Reach and was among the top performers in most other categories.

Perhaps the most impressive - 10th overall in the agility test at 10.64 seconds, which was by far the fastest of any of the bigs at the combine (Zeller was the next best big at 11.13). Miles also bested Zeller in the sprint (3.36 secs vs. 3.40), which honestly surprised me a bit.

[Duvall]

Perhaps the most impressive - 10th overall in the agility test at 10.64 seconds, which was by far the fastest of any of the bigs at the combine (Zeller was the next best big at 11.13). Miles also bested Zeller in the sprint (3.36 secs vs. 3.40), which honestly surprised me a bit.

Not *that* surprising. (http://blogs.fayobserver.com/accbasketball/February-2012/With-Duke-looking-at-a--fair-fight--inside-with-UN)


Opposing coaches praise Zeller for his rim-to-rim running ability, which often turns defensive rebounds for the Tar Heels into point-blank baskets at the other end.

Miles Plumlee says there’s a catch.

“He does run up the floor well; I won’t take that away from him,” Plumlee said. “But also, in my experience, he leaks out a lot. That’s a big part of it as well. Whoever starts the race first is probably going to end first. That’s more of a mental thing. Mason and I are just as fast as any big. The biggest thing is mentally knowing they want to get that leak out. Being physical on the boards but also aware that whoever is the furthest one back really has to get back.”

[Kedsy]

Here is how Miles tests out historically:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=13

Wow. According to that chart, Miles has the best "max vert" in history (or at least since they've recorded it) for players standing 6'8" or taller.

[Billy Dat]

In his latest chat, going on now, ESPN's Chad Ford is saying that Miles has a shot a cracking the first round based on his showing at the combine. It doesn't mean it will happen, but the fact that it is being discussed is amazing.

[CDu]

In his latest chat, going on now, ESPN's Chad Ford is saying that Miles has a shot a cracking the first round based on his showing at the combine. It doesn't mean it will happen, but the fact that it is being discussed is amazing.

Yeah, the workouts have done wonders for his stock. I'd be surprised if he goes in the first round, but I think he's going to get drafted for sure. Which is amazing.

[Class of '94]

Yeah, the workouts have done wonders for his stock. I'd be surprised if he goes in the first round, but I think he's going to get drafted for sure. Which is amazing.

I am extremely happy for Miles and his potential for getting drafted (and possibly in the first round); but I'm curious to get posters' thoughts on how MIles possibly getting drafted could be used against Duke. Personally, I think this would bode well for Duke and the coaching staff should be looked upon favorably for preparing Miles to position himself to possibly get drafted. That said, could Duke haters and other coaching staffs use this as a negative recrutiting pitch to HS post players by telling them, "See.....If Duke had featured players like Miles more as opposed to being a screen setter, he would've have been a solid first round to potential player". Again, I think it would be a testament to Duke and staff is a "screen setter" was drafted, especially in the first round (if that were to happen).

[Duvall]

I am extremely happy for Miles and his potential for getting drafted (and possibly in the first round); but I'm curious to get posters' thoughts on how MIles possibly getting drafted could be used against Duke. Personally, I think this would bode well for Duke and the coaching staff should be looked upon favorably for preparing Miles to position himself to possibly get drafted. That said, could Duke haters and other coaching staffs use this as a negative recrutiting pitch to HS post players by telling them, "See.....If Duke had featured players like Miles more as opposed to being a screen setter, he would've have been a solid first round to potential player". Again, I think it would be a testament to Duke and staff is a "screen setter" was drafted, especially in the first round (if that were to happen).

Haters can and will say all kinds of things. But if Miles is drafted and makes an NBA roster, it won't be because a team has fallen in love with his perimeter shooting or face-up game - it will be because they need someone to rebound, set screens and protect the rim.

[CDu]

I am extremely happy for Miles and his potential for getting drafted (and possibly in the first round); but I'm curious to get posters' thoughts on how MIles possibly getting drafted could be used against Duke. Personally, I think this would bode well for Duke and the coaching staff should be looked upon favorably for preparing Miles to position himself to possibly get drafted. That said, could Duke haters and other coaching staffs use this as a negative recrutiting pitch to HS post players by telling them, "See.....If Duke had featured players like Miles more as opposed to being a screen setter, he would've have been a solid first round to potential player". Again, I think it would be a testament to Duke and staff is a "screen setter" was drafted, especially in the first round (if that were to happen).

Haters gonna hate. They can always find something to rip if they want to do so. To be fair, Kendrick Perkins is making a fine living in the NBA as a screen setter, defender, and rebounder. Omer Asik is about to become very rich doing it as well. And neither is near the athlete that Miles is. Serge Ibaka is probably a better defender than Miles, but that's the type of role he could aspire to play: big, athletic guy with a limited offensive game but lots of energy and effort.

The reality is that the NBA isn't just for stars. You have to have guys willing to play a role. Sometimes you'll get guys who are willing/able to transition from a starring role to a complementary role (like Nick Collison). But it's also possible that a guy can be a role player in college and the pros.

It's sort of like a relief pitcher, backup catcher, or backup middle-infielder in baseball. A guy with a 95mph fastball and decent slider may be a terrible starter in the minors if he can't command a changeup, while a guy with an 88-90 and good command of his curve and changeup is a solid starter in the low minors. But at the major league level, that guy with the big fastball and slider can make a great reliever, while the other guy may not have enough to cut it at any role in the majors (not enough stuff for either role). The backup catcher or backup middle infielder may not be able to hit a lick even in the minors, but if they can defend their position(s) well enough they'll find a place in the majors - even over some guys with better bats (but less defensive skill).

[Ichabod Drain]

Haters can and will say all kinds of things. But if Miles is drafted and makes an NBA roster, it won't be because a team has fallen in love with his perimeter shooting or face-up game - it will be because they need someone to rebound, set screens and protect the rim.

Don't forget throw down the occasional jam.

[NSDukeFan]

I am extremely happy for Miles and his potential for getting drafted (and possibly in the first round); but I'm curious to get posters' thoughts on how MIles possibly getting drafted could be used against Duke. Personally, I think this would bode well for Duke and the coaching staff should be looked upon favorably for preparing Miles to position himself to possibly get drafted. That said, could Duke haters and other coaching staffs use this as a negative recrutiting pitch to HS post players by telling them, "See.....If Duke had featured players like Miles more as opposed to being a screen setter, he would've have been a solid first round to potential player". Again, I think it would be a testament to Duke and staff is a "screen setter" was drafted, especially in the first round (if that were to happen).

What college program could you go to where you would not have to put up great scoring numbers, but be part of very good teams, practice so competitively with such a great coaching staff and against so many very good players that you could still make the NBA?

[Saratoga2]

I often thought that Mason was a little taller and more athletic, although that doesn't appear to be the case. I also thought Ryan looked him eye to eye, although Ryan said he was a little over 6'9" in an interview last season. Clearly Miles is very athletic and strong with the 15 reps. I often wondered what was going on with him as far as his scoring around the basket. We had all sorts of theories about that during the year. Maybe different coaching in the NBA can bring Miles more offensive success.

[gam7]

I often thought that Mason was a little taller and more athletic, although that doesn't appear to be the case. I also thought Ryan looked him eye to eye, although Ryan said he was a little over 6'9" in an interview last season. Clearly Miles is very athletic and strong with the 15 reps. I often wondered what was going on with him as far as his scoring around the basket. We had all sorts of theories about that during the year. Maybe different coaching in the NBA can bring Miles more offensive success.

I don't think Miles's performance at the NBA Combine and his physical attributes are a surprise to anyone who has followed Duke closely. The question with Miles is, and always has been, between the ears.

[MChambers]

I don't think Miles's performance at the NBA Combine and his physical attributes are a surprise to anyone who has followed Duke closely. The question with Miles is, and always has been, between the ears.

I agree with your first sentence, but not the second. There are physical basketball skills that aren't measured at the NBA Combine, as Kevin Durant has shown. I hope Miles gets drafted, but I don't think his relative lack of production at Duke had anything to do with his head.

Remember that he was ranked about #80 coming out of high school.

[hq2]

I hope Miles gets drafted, but I don't think his relative lack of production at Duke had anything to do with his head.

Remember that he was ranked about #80 coming out of high school.

No, I think it has to do with his hands and feet. People forget that Miles was not particularly good at
either catching the ball or moving to the basket once he caught it. He was known for turnovers
and traveling, and I'm not sure either is going to get that much better in the pros. I'd say he has
a relatively limited set of half court offensive skills for the pros; rebound, set screens and picks, hit the open jump shot, hit an occasional layup, shoot free throws (O.K., not great). His lack of any kind of reliable low post scoring moves will keep him from starting.

Where he begins to look useful is for his full court skills. Miles could definitely excel for the right
team playing in a bang-and-run rotation for about 10-15 minutes a game, with his size, good motor, and good leaping ability. Denver, Portland, the Clipppers or Phoenix, maybe, all might be interested in what he can bring in this area. Just needs to be on the right team where his skills will fit.

[CDu]

I agree with your first sentence, but not the second. There are physical basketball skills that aren't measured at the NBA Combine, as Kevin Durant has shown. I hope Miles gets drafted, but I don't think his relative lack of production at Duke had anything to do with his head.

Remember that he was ranked about #80 coming out of high school.

One could argue that he was only ranked about #80 out of high school because of his head. He clearly had the athleticism even in high school (state-ranked high jumper). The game has just not come naturally enough to him. He started to have things click this past year and finally started playing well. But he really struggled with his hands and footwork, and I think a fair amount of that was in his head.

Another key to his lack of production was that he basically played the same position as his brother, but his brother was better at it. The two sharing the court was a difficult pairing because they aren't quick laterally and they can't shoot (meaning they can't spread the defense).

[lotusland]

One could argue that he was only ranked about #80 out of high school because of his head. He clearly had the athleticism even in high school (state-ranked high jumper). The game has just not come naturally enough to him. He started to have things click this past year and finally started playing well. But he really struggled with his hands and footwork, and I think a fair amount of that was in his head.

Another key to his lack of production was that he basically played the same position as his brother, but his brother was better at it. The two sharing the court was a difficult pairing because they aren't quick laterally and they can't shoot (meaning they can't spread the defense).

Is it generally accepted that the Plums lack lateral quickness for their size? I've actually never noticed that deficiency

[CDu]

Is it generally accepted that the Plums lack lateral quickness for their size? I've actually never noticed that deficiency

I don't know if it is generally accepted or not. Miles may be quicker laterally than Mason. But Mason certainly seems "lumbering" in his play. Good straight-ahead speed and great leaping ability, but lumbering in a stop and go setting. Miles seemed a little more fluid than Mason in general, and perhaps he was even quick laterally (he scored well in all of the athletic tests). So maybe I'm projecting Mason's apparent deficiencies in this area onto Miles incorrectly.

However, I don't think Miles ever displayed the lateral quickness of the typical college PF (which is usually an NBA SF). And Mason definitely didn't display the lateral quickness of a college PF. That was my point in saying that it was tricky to put both on the floor together for long stretches.

[Li_Duke]

I don't know if it is generally accepted or not. Miles may be quicker laterally than Mason. But Mason certainly seems "lumbering" in his play. Good straight-ahead speed and great leaping ability, but lumbering in a stop and go setting. Miles seemed a little more fluid than Mason in general, and perhaps he was even quick laterally (he scored well in all of the athletic tests). So maybe I'm projecting Mason's apparent deficiencies in this area onto Miles incorrectly.

However, I don't think Miles ever displayed the lateral quickness of the typical college PF (which is usually an NBA SF). And Mason definitely didn't display the lateral quickness of a college PF. That was my point in saying that it was tricky to put both on the floor together for long stretches.

I think that's fair. College PFs often project to be NBA SFs. Miles and Mason project to be NBA centers (or maybe power forwards), they won't be expected to have enough lateral quickness to guard NBA SFs.

[luvdahops]

I think that's fair. College PFs often project to be NBA SFs. Miles and Mason project to be NBA centers (or maybe power forwards), they won't be expected to have enough lateral quickness to guard NBA SFs.

Our system is not well suited for two true posts playing at the same time, especially on defense, where the nominal PF must have sufficient mobility and quickness to handle switching on screens and cover a lot of ground on help situations. Our offense also tends to suffer when we don't have a 4 with decent range on the floor. We saw this when Kelly got hurt late this year. In addition, our offensive approach typically thrives on space for dribble penetration and kick-outs (not so much the case this past season), which is harder to come by with two bigs in and around the paint.

[gwlaw99]

2nd Day combine testing results (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2012&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=)available. Miles was third in max vert. He also had the second vertical reach (with steps) and did very well in the agility test. Rivers with a surprisingly decent vertical, but only 1 rep on bench press.

[NM Duke Fan]

SI had a nice section about Miles and how he is moving up into possibly being in the first round, scroll down in this article:

""Honestly, I feel like my athleticism is top notch," he said. "I don't think there's anyone with my blend of speed, strength, explosiveness. And I have a great skill base that I've worked on since I was little -- my ball handling, all of that. I have a lot more to offer than people know."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/14/henson.nba.draft.notes/index.html#ixzz1xo9I0ZMG

[hq2]

SI had a nice section about Miles and how he is moving up into possibly being in the first round, scroll down in this article:

""Honestly, I feel like my athleticism is top notch," he said. "I don't think there's anyone with my blend of speed, strength, explosiveness. And I have a great skill base that I've worked on since I was little -- my ball handling, all of that. I have a lot more to offer than people know."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/14/henson.nba.draft.notes/index.html#ixzz1xo9I0ZMG

Really doubt Miles would be a first rounder. Once the NBA execs get past the athleticism, they'll check the game films and see the same Miles we've seen the past four years; a great athlete with questionable hands and feet, and relatively low lateral quickness. Would be surprised to see him go anywhere higher than 40th, and might not even be drafted at all, if teams think they can just pick him up later (see Shavlik Randolph). Still, I believe with the right team, there's a home for him somewhere in the NBA. May just take a little time for him to find it.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I'm no NBA exec, but I don't understand why some here are wont to beat down Miles' NBA potential. How many times have we watched great college players with outstanding shooting ability, passing skills, court awareness, etc., not get drafted, enjoy just a brief stint in the league or have a minimally productive career because of their lack of athleticism? Adam Morrison anyone? Scottie Reynolds? On this very board we have beaten our own heads against the wall knowing that some of our favorite players who had outstanding careers (far more productive many might say than Miles) would never make it at the next level because they were too short, too slow to defend, etc. And we sit here and watch with aggravation as super athletic kids from other hated teams get drafted despite their inability to throw the ball into the ocean. The NBA loves athletes. Just because Miles may never be a star center with amazing offensive skills doesn't mean he can't be incredibly effective as a role player. Every team needs them.

Enough of the negativity. Let's enjoy watching as one of our very own, incredibly gifted athletes does something amazing and gives us all something to be proud of. Duke sending a monster athlete to the NBA... who'da thunk it?

[mapleleafdevil]

He just needs to enter the NFL draft and not look back.

[PumpkinFunk]

I didn't think Miles had a problem with his feet or hands these past two seasons... definitely foul trouble, but that's such a hard thing to project. Because of the role he played, he didn't get to take advantage of his amazing rebounding (taken out of the post too often on both ends this past year), his better-than-given-credit-for mid-range jumper, his defense (solid, even if it was not flashy). Athletically, he's a stud. And he's a legit 6-11. His fundamentals are better than his brother. Defensively, he's way better than Mason. He was never the focal point of the team. He's someone who was written off because of the role he had on the team, but who you knew was going to be moving up on draft boards once he got to show off what he could do. Maybe not first round, but late first or early second are totally feasible.

[Class of '94]

I didn't think Miles had a problem with his feet or hands these past two seasons... definitely foul trouble, but that's such a hard thing to project. Because of the role he played, he didn't get to take advantage of his amazing rebounding (taken out of the post too often on both ends this past year), his better-than-given-credit-for mid-range jumper, his defense (solid, even if it was not flashy). Athletically, he's a stud. And he's a legit 6-11. His fundamentals are better than his brother. Defensively, he's way better than Mason. He was never the focal point of the team. He's someone who was written off because of the role he had on the team, but who you knew was going to be moving up on draft boards once he got to show off what he could do. Maybe not first round, but late first or early second are totally feasible.

From all accouts, Miles has looked great in Duke practices and workouts for a long time. But to be fari, there has to be a reason why he was never the focal point of the team. IMO, if Miles had played as well in games as he reportedly did in practice and the NBA workouts, he would've been a focal point. It still remains to be seen if he can translate his practice habits to actual "live" games. The great thing about this NBA draft potential is that he doesn't have to worry about playing in games to get drafted.

[hq2]

From all accouts, Miles has looked great in Duke practices and workouts for a long time. But to be fari, there has to be a reason why he was never the focal point of the team. IMO, if Miles had played as well in games as he reportedly did in practice and the NBA workouts, he would've been a focal point. It still remains to be seen if he can translate his practice habits to actual "live" games. The great thing about this NBA draft potential is that he doesn't have to worry about playing in games to get drafted.

The NBA drafts on both upside and skill level. From their point of view, athletically, Miles clearly has
plenty of upside. However, at some point, the skills must improve too. Since Miles had four years at
Duke to show improvement (which, he did, some) they legitimately have to ask whether he's really capable of consistently playing at this level in the pros in actual game situations. Clearly, he's worth a late second round pick just for him to be an occasional off the bench and good practice player, but I think an NBA exec would be considering it a risk at this point to expect more from him. That's why I don't think he'll go that high.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

The NBA drafts on both upside and skill level. From their point of view, athletically, Miles clearly has
plenty of upside. However, at some point, the skills must improve too. Since Miles had four years at
Duke to show improvement (which, he did, some) they legitimately have to ask whether he's really capable of consistently playing at this level in the pros in actual game situations. Clearly, he's worth a late second round pick just for him to be an occasional off the bench and good practice player, but I think an NBA exec would be considering it a risk at this point to expect more from him. That's why I don't think he'll go that high.

But don't most guys beyond, say, the top 10 picks represent a risk for any GM? And especially as you get into picks later in the first and certainly into the second round? Heck, many would argue that even picks in the top 5 can be pretty darn risky given the potential for busts. Plenty of those on record. We'll find out soon enough exactly how GMs are thinking about MP1 but I guess I would not be surprised at this point to see him break into bottom of Rd1 or top of Rd2 given his athleticism and what it seems to represent to GMs in terms of potential value in the league. It probably won't turn out this way, but really how different is MP1 from Fab Melo who is projected to go in the mid 20s? By the way, MP1 scored better than Melo on every athletic test at the combine. Give MP1 a star PG like he might have had with KI and he starts to look even better. We'll see...

[hq2]

But don't most guys beyond, say, the top 10 picks represent a risk for any GM? And especially as you get into picks later in the first and certainly into the second round? Heck, many would argue that even picks in the top 5 can be pretty darn risky given the potential for busts. Plenty of those on record. We'll find out soon enough exactly how GMs are thinking about MP1 but I guess I would not be surprised at this point to see him break into bottom of Rd1 or top of Rd2 given his athleticism and what it seems to represent to GMs in terms of potential value in the league. It probably won't turn out this way, but really how different is MP1 from Fab Melo who is projected to go in the mid 20s? By the way, MP1 scored better than Melo on every athletic test at the combine. Give MP1 a star PG like he might have had with KI and he starts to look even better. We'll see...

Yes, all picks represent a risk of some type; would anyone have thought Greg Oden would be a complete bust? (I thought he was overrated, but never thought he'd be a complete washout...) The difference between Miles and those likely to go ahead of him is that they showed that they could consistently perform at a high level, and Miles didn't. With Miles, the pros would be betting that somehow at this level, he would fix whatever it is that has prevented him from being consistently good (hands? feet? head? who knows...). It's not out of the question; the pro game, favoring speed and athleticism, with good point guards, may be more to his liking. It's just that they have to see some evidence that he could play at that level consistently, and we haven't seen it yet. That still
makes it a risk.

[gwlaw99]

But don't most guys beyond, say, the top 10 picks represent a risk for any GM? And especially as you get into picks later in the first and certainly into the second round? Heck, many would argue that even picks in the top 5 can be pretty darn risky given the potential for busts. Plenty of those on record. We'll find out soon enough exactly how GMs are thinking about MP1 but I guess I would not be surprised at this point to see him break into bottom of Rd1 or top of Rd2 given his athleticism and what it seems to represent to GMs in terms of potential value in the league. It probably won't turn out this way, but really how different is MP1 from Fab Melo who is projected to go in the mid 20s? By the way, MP1 scored better than Melo on every athletic test at the combine. Give MP1 a star PG like he might have had with KI and he starts to look even better. We'll see...

MP1's only bad score was standing reach which is helpful when defending on the block without leaving your feet. Melo also averaged 3 blocks per game.

[Kedsy]

...really how different is MP1 from Fab Melo who is projected to go in the mid 20s? By the way, MP1 scored better than Melo on every athletic test at the combine.


The difference between Miles and those likely to go ahead of him is that they showed that they could consistently perform at a high level, and Miles didn't.

Your response does not answer his question about Fab Melo.

Miles's stats last season: 6.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 bpg in 20.5 mpg

Melo's stats last season: 7.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 2.9 bpg in 25.4 mpg

Melo had much better blocked shots than Miles, but Miles rebounding is a lot better than Melo's. How has Fab Melo shown he could "consistently perform at a high level" more than Miles has?

[Greg_Newton]

MP1's only bad score was standing reach which is helpful when defending on the block without leaving your feet. Melo also averaged 3 blocks per game.

It's helpful in a lot of ways if you're a big guy, really. You're not going to achieve your max vert every time you need to contest a shot, get a rebound, go up for a shot/dunk, or even just get your hands up to prevent a shot from being taken. Fab Melo: 9'2. Miles: 8'8.5/8'9.5, depending on the combine. That's essentially the difference between Kyle Singler and John Henson.

[CDu]

Your response does not answer his question about Fab Melo.

Miles's stats last season: 6.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 bpg in 20.5 mpg

Melo's stats last season: 7.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 2.9 bpg in 25.4 mpg

Melo had much better blocked shots than Miles, but Miles rebounding is a lot better than Melo's. How has Fab Melo shown he could "consistently perform at a high level" more than Miles has?

There are two big differences that you are omitting here:
1. Syracuse plays at a slower pace than Duke. Syracuse was 209th in adjusted pace while we were at #96. That's an extra few possessions per game that makes a difference.
2. Melo was a sophomore while Miles was a senior. Considering the defensive impact and doing a comparison of apples to apples (sophomore to sophomore year), Melo has certainly shown he can consistently perform at a high level more than Plumlee.

If you want to be nitpicky about it, you can say that Miles was close to as productive as Melo last year. But being close to as productive as a guy two years your junior isn't a strong argument. And that's why Melo is a borderline 1st rounder while Plumlee is likely a 2nd rounder.

[Duvall]

There are two big differences that you are omitting here:
1. Syracuse plays at a slower pace than Duke. Syracuse was 209th in adjusted pace while we were at #96. That's an extra few possessions per game that makes a difference.
2. Melo was a sophomore while Miles was a senior. Considering the defensive impact and doing a comparison of apples to apples (sophomore to sophomore year), Melo has certainly shown he can consistently perform at a high level more than Plumlee.

If you want to be nitpicky about it, you can say that Miles was close to as productive as Melo last year. But being close to as productive as a guy two years your junior isn't a strong argument. And that's why Melo is a borderline 1st rounder while Plumlee is likely a 2nd rounder.

Not sure the tempo argument is a big factor here, since Melo spent a bit more time on the floor than Miles. If you look at the tempo-free stats (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=miles-plumlee&p1=fab-melo) you see pretty much what Kedsy suggested - that Miles is the better rebounder and Melo is a much better shotblocker. Everything else is roughly even, maybe a little edge to Miles. So any difference in their draft position probably does come from the fact that Miles is 21 months older.

[Greg_Newton]

Not sure the tempo argument is a big factor here, since Melo spent a bit more time on the floor than Miles. If you look at the tempo-free stats (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=miles-plumlee&p1=fab-melo) you see pretty much what Kedsy suggested - that Miles is the better rebounder and Melo is a much better shotblocker. Everything else is roughly even, maybe a little edge to Miles. So any difference in their draft position probably does come from the fact that Miles is 21 months older.

While I'm sure it's a big consideration, I'm not sure if that's quite fair; Melo was one of the best shotblockers and interior defenders in the country, and has legitimate NBA center length. I don't think you can just point to Miles' rebounding numbers and athletic testing and say that they cancel that out completely.

[hq2]

So any difference in their draft position probably does come from the fact that Miles is 21 months older.

.....which translates into two more college years spent working on his game without huge improvement.
So when the pros draw the improvement rate curve for each player, what do they see?

[Duvall]

.....which translates into two more college years spent working on his game without huge improvement.
So when the pros draw the improvement rate curve for each player, what do they see?

Without huge improvement?

I don't doubt that NBA GMs see room for Fab Melo to improve. Which is why I agreed that his age was a strength for him.

[hq2]

Without huge improvement?




I'd say so. You can compare his stats from his sophomore year to his senior year, and I don't think
they showed he was that much better. At the end, he was a pretty good rebounder and could hit open jump shots (should have taken more). Didn't see much improvement otherwise.

[Bob Green]

At the end, he was a pretty good rebounder and could hit open jump shots (should have taken more). Didn't see much improvement otherwise.

How about on defense? Miles was our best low post defender and I believe NBA GMs notice his defensive skills when watching tape.

[hq2]

How about on defense? Miles was our best low post defender and I believe NBA GMs notice his defensive skills when watching tape.

I stand corrected; his D did improve. Both that and his rebounding are at an NBA level. However,
it'll take more than that to make him a first rounder. For Miles to be a serious NBA player, he'll
need to get a lot better on the other end of the floor. But hey, Lance did it right? After all, his senior
year at Duke his offensive skills were about where Miles' were, and he managed to do it. But that
was after a year + in the D league. Don't be surprised to see Miles there next year too; maybe some
team needs a 10-day (I mean quality bigs are always hard to find) and he shows he can do something,
he gets his chance, and then......who knows.

[Jderf]

This may be counterintuitive, but I don't think we should take it for granted that Miles would actually even need to improve at all to be successful in the NBA. If he does get drafted in the second round, or miraculously in the first, the team drafting him will not be recruiting based on projections of improvement or potential. They'll be recruiting him to defend and rebound and finish the occasional alley-oop on the break -- all areas where he's proven himself to be capable at any level.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

This may be counterintuitive, but I don't think we should take it for granted that Miles would actually even need to improve at all to be successful in the NBA. If he does get drafted in the second round, or miraculously in the first, the team drafting him will not be recruiting based on projections of improvement or potential. They'll be recruiting him to defend and rebound and finish the occasional alley-oop on the break -- all areas where he's proven himself to be capable at any level.
Exactly. And back to the Melo comparison for just a second... if we acknowledge both Miles and Melo are likely drafted for, oh, let's call it defensive athleticism with the ability to finish strong at the rim, I still don't see that much of a difference. And one could argue that Melo has developed his skills playing primarily in zone defensive schemes which still are not widely used at the next level. So he has plenty to learn about playing man defense before he is going to be effective guarding NBA centers and perhaps the occasional PF.

[hq2]

This may be counterintuitive, but I don't think we should take it for granted that Miles would actually even need to improve at all to be successful in the NBA. If he does get drafted in the second round, or miraculously in the first, the team drafting him will not be recruiting based on projections of improvement or potential. They'll be recruiting him to defend and rebound and finish the occasional alley-oop on the break -- all areas where he's proven himself to be capable at any level.

Well, for the right team it isn't out of the question. For example, for last year's pre-Carmelo trade Nuggets,
he would have been a perfect fit; you could have plugged him right into the bang-and-run rotation of K-mart,
Nene, Birdman, and old friend Shelden, and he would have fit in right away. However, a lot of other teams aren't
like that. I'm suspecting any potential teams will be taking a hard look at how he would fit in their rotation before
drafting him, but for the right team, you are right, he might play immediately.

[NM Duke Fan]

Sam Amick of Sports Illustrated just put out his draft 3.0. Drum roll, please . . .

Miles Plumlee

Pick 26

"After his standout performance at a group workout in Minnesota last month and a quality follow-up at the combine, Plumlee continues to shine. With his incredible athleticism (41-inch vertical leap in Minnesota and 40½ inches in Chicago) and legitimate size, Plumlee could turn into an intriguing backup for Roy Hibbert (assuming Indiana is able to sign the restricted free agent center). Plumlee worked out against Melo for the Pacers on Tuesday. Boston, Chicago, Minnesota, Memphis, Golden State, Cleveland and Atlanta are also considering the Duke big man."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/20/nba-mock-draft-2012/index.html#ixzz1yMWNkAY4

[Jderf]

Crazy. Could the 2010 championship team end up having two first rounders -- with neither of them being that year's Most Outstanding Player?

[Dev11]

Crazy. Could the 2010 championship team end up having two first rounders -- with neither of them being that year's Most Outstanding Player?

You mean 3, right? Mason is likely going to be a first-rounder next year, as well.

[Jderf]

You mean 3, right? Mason is likely going to be a first-rounder next year, as well.

No, I meant two. I was just straight-up wrong. :P

[Class of '94]

You mean 3, right? Mason is likely going to be a first-rounder next year, as well.

It could be a big stretch......But the number could go up to 4 or more depending on how big a season Ryan Kelly has; and if Andre redshirts this season, he would have 2 years to really work on and develop his game (in terms of ball-handling and attacking the basket to go with his shooting ability), and could become a first rounder.

[CDu]

It could be a big stretch......But the number could go up to 4 or more depending on how big a season Ryan Kelly has; and if Andre redshirts this season, he would have 2 years to really work on and develop his game (in terms of ball-handling and attacking the basket to go with his shooting ability), and could become a first rounder.

I'm going to say that 2 is by far the most likely outcome (Smith and Mason), with 2-3 second rounders (Singler and Miles, with Dawkins and Kelly having an outside shot). I'd be very surprised if Kelly or Dawkins did enough in their one additional season to warrant a 1st round selection. But we'll see. In any case, to have 4-5 draft picks and another guy in the league, that's pretty good.

[jimsumner]

I'm going to say that 2 is by far the most likely outcome (Smith and Mason), with 2-3 second rounders (Singler and Miles, with Dawkins and Kelly having an outside shot). I'd be very surprised if Kelly or Dawkins did enough in their one additional season to warrant a 1st round selection. But we'll see. In any case, to have 4-5 draft picks and another guy in the league, that's pretty good.

I still think Scheyer gets drafted. :)

[Class of '94]

I'm going to say that 2 is by far the most likely outcome (Smith and Mason), with 2-3 second rounders (Singler and Miles, with Dawkins and Kelly having an outside shot). I'd be very surprised if Kelly or Dawkins did enough in their one additional season to warrant a 1st round selection. But we'll see. In any case, to have 4-5 draft picks and another guy in the league, that's pretty good.

I agree with you; but speculatively speaking, if Miles has an opportunity or chance to be a first rounder (however slim that might be), wouldn't Ryan (who has more skill than Miles) and Andre (with 2 yrs, via a possible redshirt year, to work on his game) have the same or better chance of being first round picks?

[CDu]

I agree with you; but speculatively speaking, if Miles has an opportunity or chance to be a first rounder (however slim that might be), wouldn't Ryan (who has more skill than Miles) and Andre (with 2 yrs, via a possible redshirt year, to work on his game) have the same or better chance of being first round picks?

Miles is going to get drafted purely on freakish athleticism and potential. Kelly doesn't have the athleticism to go in the first round without a ridiculous senior season. He's the type of guy you pick up in the 2nd round (or undrafted in summer league) and hope he can fill an end of the bench role. Unless he dramatically steps up, I don't think he'll threaten the 1st round.

Dawkins has better athleticism and thus a better chance than Kelly. But I think even he is a long shot at best right now.

[juise]

I agree with you; but speculatively speaking, if Miles has an opportunity or chance to be a first rounder (however slim that might be), wouldn't Ryan (who has more skill than Miles) and Andre (with 2 yrs, via a possible redshirt year, to work on his game) have the same or better chance of being first round picks?

I would say that Miles is getting first round looks based more on his athletic prowess (and therefore, perceived "upside") than his skill. I don't think Ryan and Andre will get the same benefit.

[elvis14]

I would say that Miles is getting first round looks based more on his athletic prowess (and therefore, perceived "upside") than his skill. I don't think Ryan and Andre will get the same benefit.

I'd agree with you if you replace word "skill" with "scoring". Defense, rebounding, setting picks are skills. Add those to great athleticism, a great attitude, a history of improving over time and Miles has a good shot at inching into the end of the first round.

[theAlaskanBear]

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/6/21/3104852/2012-nba-draft-miles-plumlee-garrett-stutz

Miles is working out with the Hawks this week.

[juise]

I'd agree with you if you replace word "skill" with "scoring". Defense, rebounding, setting picks are skills. Add those to great athleticism, a great attitude, a history of improving over time and Miles has a good shot at inching into the end of the first round.

I am not suggesting that Miles doesn't possess those things, but I would argue that Zoubek was similar in those skill areas. I think that the difference between Zoubek not getting drafted and Miles getting first round looks lies in Miles' superior ability to run and jump.

[tele]

I am not suggesting that Miles doesn't possess those things, but I would argue that Zoubek was similar in those skill areas. I think that the difference between Zoubek not getting drafted and Miles getting first round looks lies in Miles' superior ability to run and jump.

That kind of size and athletic ability combination is rare. But has added skill levels too like his shooting range for his size, and his knack for offensive rebounding which can really help win games.

[BD80]

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/6/21/3104852/2012-nba-draft-miles-plumlee-garrett-stutz

Miles is working out with the Hawks this week.

He must have done something VERY bad in a past life.

At least its not the Bobcats.

[timmy c]

Miles interview with Draft Express:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22imii95DbA&feature=player_embedded

[hq2]

Miles interview with Draft Express:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22imii95DbA&feature=player_embedded

If you have a look at it, I think you'll notice that he danced around the question of consistency.
However, I sort of doubt if the pros will overlook it; it's why I still think he'll end up in the second round.
He has great athletic upside, but he's also a significant risk. Only certain teams would consider him in the
first round, and in the end I think they will choose more consistent players.

[mr. synellinden]

The latest SI mock draft (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/20/nba-mock-draft-2012/index.html#?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t13_a3) pegs Miles as the 26th pick in the draft.

[g-money]

Miles interview with Draft Express:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22imii95DbA&feature=player_embedded

This interview shows what a great ambassador Miles Plumlee is for the Duke program.

What I liked about that interview was: 1) he didn't take the bait and throw Duke under the bus when the question of "college production" came up; and 2) he consistently kept the interview positive and focused on his strengths.

Let's see, intelligence (check), positive attitude/team player (check), incredible athleticism (check), excellent rebounder and defender (check)...methinks we'll be seeing Miles on an NBA roster for many years to come.

Good luck in the draft Miles! And thanks for four great years including the championship in 2010.

[flyingdutchdevil]

From Seth Davis - SI:

Miles Plumlee, 7-foot center, Duke: "He's turned out to be a way better athlete than anybody knew. Duke is so guard-oriented, but he really helped himself in workouts in Minnesota and Chicago. I've never been a fan, but he's a physical freak. I would have said halfway through the season that he wouldn't even get drafted, but he has helped himself. His biggest problem is he thinks on the court too much."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/06/25/NBA-draft/index.html#ixzz1yv7YXARI

I think the last line is incredibly telling and I've never thought about that before: he thinks too much. Interesting.

[CDu]

From Seth Davis - SI:

Miles Plumlee, 7-foot center, Duke: "He's turned out to be a way better athlete than anybody knew. Duke is so guard-oriented, but he really helped himself in workouts in Minnesota and Chicago. I've never been a fan, but he's a physical freak. I would have said halfway through the season that he wouldn't even get drafted, but he has helped himself. His biggest problem is he thinks on the court too much."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/06/25/NBA-draft/index.html#ixzz1yv7YXARI

I think the last line is incredibly telling and I've never thought about that before: he thinks too much. Interesting.

I'd agree with that analysis (surprising, coming from Seth Davis). The game just hasn't been instinctual for Miles. You could kind of see him freeze up in the moment trying to figure out what to do in a given situation.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Miles has always been a stud athlete with pretty good hands who can play a role in the league. I think his biggest problem is he has just never shown much court awarenes and feel for the game. That's always going to be an issue for him, but that can be worked around with the right team and a defined role. Mentally, he's not "that" bad.

The good news for the program is, if Miles can get drafted in the first round, even after four years of rarely being an option on offense in a wing/guard oriented program, it might help fight the Duke perception out there in the recruiting world that it's a big man wasteland as a path to the NBA....that, and actually making a low post entry pass a priority into Mason next season would help climb that mountain.

[COYS]

I'd agree with that analysis (surprising, coming from Seth Davis). The game just hasn't been instinctual for Miles. You could kind of see him freeze up in the moment trying to figure out what to do in a given situation.

His other issue is that he was on the same team as a player who shared his same strengths and was, in most cases, a bit better. Miles has pretty much always been a very good rebounder. But Zoubek was better during Miles' sophomore season, and his brother has been roughly on par with him the past two seasons. Add in Mason's superior offensive game and senior Zoubek's better fit with the team on both sides of the ball and you get a guy who just didn't get on the court enough to get his raw rebounding numbers up high enough to impress. Also, while Ryan is not the defender nor rebounder that Miles is, he is a FAR better offensive player and therefore took even more minutes from Miles. I think that the depth around Miles combined with the fact that he never completely broke out and put it together on both ends of the court prevented us from seeing just how dominant a rebounder Miles was in college.

[UrinalCake]

"His biggest problem is he thinks on the court too much."

Aahh, I've been saying that all year! His best plays are really quick, instinctual moves where he doesn't have time to think but instead reacts and relies on his natural abilities. Alley-oops, put backs, catch-and-finish type plays. But when he catches the ball in the post and has to make a decision on what to do, he's just not as fluid. Some of labeled this "bad hands," but I think it's more psychological.

The good news moving forward is that in the NBA he'll have a much more limited role. He'll be asked to do fewer things and to stick to those roles, thus he'll have fewer mental responsibilities. If he can get comfortable on the court (which is a big IF) then he can be a real contributor. I think the fans of whatever team he ends up on will love him too, given his blue collar ethic, willingness to do whatever it takes to win, and highlight reel potential.

[DukieInBrasil]

The good news moving forward is that in the NBA he'll have a much more limited role. He'll be asked to do fewer things and to stick to those roles, thus he'll have fewer mental responsibilities. If he can get comfortable on the court (which is a big IF) then he can be a real contributor. I think the fans of whatever team he ends up on will love him too, given his blue collar ethic, willingness to do whatever it takes to win, and highlight reel potential.

The bolded part also describes Josh McRoberts, who in all likelihood will stay in the NBA for a while b/c he can do a lot of things pretty well, but just doesn't have superstar talent.
Aside from the bolded parts mentioned, Josh and Miles' games don't share much in common: Josh is a good dribbler and gifted passer for a big, Miles is not; Josh has even shown pretty decent 3pt range in the NBA (.337 career but only 3-7 last year), while Miles' range might extend to just inside NCAA 3-range; Miles is a very good rebounder and excellent on the Oboards, Josh is good not great in that department; both can throw down very impressive dunks and can run the floor well. Miles could be a much better inside player than Josh is and get a good chunk of his offense from put-backs and dunks from being close to the rim. I think Miles would be doing alright if his career numbers are similar (4.6ppg, 52% FG, 3.8rpg, 15mpg), although swapping the pts and rebs #s might be more likely.

[BD80]

From Seth Davis - SI:

Miles Plumlee, 7-foot center, Duke: "... His biggest problem is he thinks on the court too much."

This could be why uCon has been so successful recently - in basketball, not in academics.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This could be why uCon has been so successful recently - in basketball, not in academics.

Oh snap!

[grit74]

There is a longstanding piece of swing advice for golfers: you need to take your mind out of play.

[elvis14]

From Seth Davis - SI:

Miles Plumlee, I've never been a fan

I did a little editing for Seth. Perhaps I should have replace "Miles Plumlee" with "Duke" :-)


I think the fans of whatever team he ends up on will love him too, given his blue collar ethic, willingness to do whatever it takes to win, and highlight reel potential.

I know this has already been highlighted but I wanted to comment on is as well. First I agree with you and I also think that Miles has improved each year for the last 4 years and I think that can continue. As he get's more mature I can see him getting more comfortable over time and being more productive. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that playing 82 regular season games, where each game just doesn't have the intensity level of every single Duke game might be a good thing for Miles.

[CajunDevil]

Miles is an athletic freak - a 41" vertical in Minneapolis and a 40.5" vertical at the Chicago combine. At 6'10.5" (no shoes), 252 lbs, he reaches 12' 2" on his max vert reach.

He would be a PERFECT fit with the Heat. If Miles can develop consistency on a 15'-17' jumper, rebound, defend and block shots from the help side that starts the Heat break... that is scary. On the offensive end, he only needs to provide garbage/hustle points (putbacks), set screens, keep rebounds alive, and hit a wide-open medium range jumper to have a 10+ year career in the NBA. So long as you don't need or expect Miles to be a primary offensive option, then he is an excellent pick in mid-late 20's, imo.

[Kedsy]

I did a little editing for Seth. Perhaps I should have replace "Miles Plumlee" with "Duke" :-)

The guy went to Duke. I'm sure he rooted for the good guys at some point.

[elvis14]

The guy went to Duke. I'm sure he rooted for the good guys at some point.

I know, I was just goofing around some. I really like Miles and hate to see the whole "I was never a fan" statement. Sure, Miles could be frustrating but he gave effort and improved over time. I'm actually really happy to hear that he's very likely to be drafted.

[Double DD]

It doesn't seem like everyone actually clicked on the link. The conceit of the article is that Davis relaying what a "scout" has told him about all these players. The "scout" being an amalgamation of several different scouts and executives he's talked too. So, if you don't like Davis' insights or don't like him, you can rest assured that he's just the conduit and this isn't his personal opinion on Miles.

[hq2]

Here's what the consensus appears to be: mid 30s. He'll be better off for PT on a bad team, making him
a likely early second rounder. I think he's too much of a risk for a good team at the end of the first round.

Miles Plumlee, F/C, 6-11, 252, Duke
CBSSports (Jeff Goodman): No. 34, Cleveland Cavaliers
CBSSports (Matt Moore): Out of first round
DraftExpress: No. 32, Washington Wizards
ESPN: No. 36, Sacramento Kings
NBA: No. 32, Washington Wizards
NBADraft: No. 39, Detroit Pistons
Stock report: Up, up, up. Plumlee’s shown off his strength and athleticism at workouts, making up for a pedestrian collegiate career and vaulting himself to the edge of the first round. Mike Krzyzewski said Plumlee will be a good complementary player. Teams are seeing that.

[sporthenry]

Here's what the consensus appears to be: mid 30s. He'll be better off for PT on a bad team, making him
a likely early second rounder. I think he's too much of a risk for a good team at the end of the first round.

Miles Plumlee, F/C, 6-11, 252, Duke
CBSSports (Jeff Goodman): No. 34, Cleveland Cavaliers
CBSSports (Matt Moore): Out of first round
DraftExpress: No. 32, Washington Wizards
ESPN: No. 36, Sacramento Kings
NBA: No. 32, Washington Wizards
NBADraft: No. 39, Detroit Pistons
Stock report: Up, up, up. Plumlee’s shown off his strength and athleticism at workouts, making up for a pedestrian collegiate career and vaulting himself to the edge of the first round. Mike Krzyzewski said Plumlee will be a good complementary player. Teams are seeing that.

I kind of see it as the other way around and he'd be great on a good team. As K said, he has a limited skill set but the skills he does provide in athleticism, rebounding, and at times defense are very good. In the NBA, apart from the All Stars, you are expected to do a few things very good so that works for Miles and is why we see some great college players sputter b/c they do everything good but nothing great (also a reason I don't like T-Rob).

But imagine Miles going to a team like the Heat where he would provide them with more athleticism in the front court and he could play a role like McBob in LA where he just plays weak side and gets a ton of alley oops when LeBron and Wade drive. He would also learn from them and wouldn't asked to be too much.

[MChambers]

Here's what the consensus appears to be: mid 30s. He'll be better off for PT on a bad team, making him
a likely early second rounder. I think he's too much of a risk for a good team at the end of the first round.

Miles Plumlee, F/C, 6-11, 252, Duke
CBSSports (Jeff Goodman): No. 34, Cleveland Cavaliers
CBSSports (Matt Moore): Out of first round
DraftExpress: No. 32, Washington Wizards
ESPN: No. 36, Sacramento Kings
NBA: No. 32, Washington Wizards
NBADraft: No. 39, Detroit Pistons
Stock report: Up, up, up. Plumlee’s shown off his strength and athleticism at workouts, making up for a pedestrian collegiate career and vaulting himself to the edge of the first round. Mike Krzyzewski said Plumlee will be a good complementary player. Teams are seeing that.

It would be nice to have a reason to follow the Wizards. On the other hand, I'd really hate for one of my guys to end up playing for that franchise, even if it is local.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It would be nice to have a reason to follow the Wizards. On the other hand, I'd really hate for one of my guys to end up playing for that franchise, even if it is local.

SI had a really good case for the Heat at 27: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/27/nba-mock-draft-2012/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a0

It makes perfect sense, as the Heat need a center to rebound, defend, and put in some putbacks. But I hate the thought of another Duke player on those damn Heat.

[Indoor66]

SI had a really good case for the Heat at 27: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/27/nba-mock-draft-2012/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a0

It makes perfect sense, as the Heat need a center to rebound, defend, and put in some putbacks. But I hate the thought of another Duke player on those damn Heat.

Now, now. Some of us live in South Florida and would love to have Miles join Shain on the Defending Champion Team.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Now, now. Some of us live in South Florida and would love to have Miles join Shain on the Defending Champion Team.

I have nothing against South Florida. Just a few of the players who live there ;)

[Ian]

There is a lot of money to be made in the NBA for being a good complementary player. A lot of kids, and media, think it's all about how many points you average in college. When the truth is, there are only a few players on each team in the NBA who takes most of the shots. Most teams already have that guy and don't need another one, they need guys who do other stuff.

[basket1544]

Miles gets to go back to Indiana and play but my only question is how will he and Hasbro play together?

[elvis14]

Miles gets to go back to Indiana and play but my only question is how will he and Hasbro play together?

He'll probably break HansTravels nose in practice.

[Newton_14]

Closing this thread. Please use the new thread for discussion on the Indiana Pacers newest player!