Stan Van Gundy Out as Magic Coach

[tommy]

OK so Dwight Howard got his way. The Magic fired Van Gundy. Score another one for the petulent, blame-anybody-but-me man-child, and for irrationality, over a sober assessment of the value of a coach and the quality of a roster.

Anyway, what next for Stan Van? Me personally, I would love to see TNT (or does ESPN have him?) pick up Stan and pair him with his brother Jeff as the two game analysts as part of the 3 man booth. That would be funny, interesting, enlightening, and just way entertaining.

[Faison1]

OK so Dwight Howard got his way. The Magic fired Van Gundy. Score another one for the petulent, blame-anybody-but-me man-child, and for irrationality, over a sober assessment of the value of a coach and the quality of a roster.

Stan seems like a nice guy, but there's plenty of people on this board who would agree he was an average coach. Frankly, I think his firing will help JJ get some more minutes. I hope.

[Acymetric]

Stan seems like a nice guy, but there's plenty of people on this board who would agree he was an average coach. Frankly, I think his firing will help JJ get some more minutes. I hope.

I think it could go either way for JJ, I'll wait until we know the replacement to judge one way or the other.

[SupaDave]

They just paid JJ big money. I've got a feeling he will get his minutes. PLENTY of teams needs a shooter like him. The Lakers would take him tomorrow.

[dukelifer]

Stan seems like a nice guy, but there's plenty of people on this board who would agree he was an average coach. Frankly, I think his firing will help JJ get some more minutes. I hope.

Stan liked JJ and gave him lots of minutes of late. Not sure this was always the case- but JJ won him over by working very hard and becoming a better all around player. JJ has has a solid NBA career under Stan.

[throatybeard]

OK so Dwight Howard got his way. The Magic fired Van Gundy. Score another one for the petulent, blame-anybody-but-me man-child, and for irrationality, over a sober assessment of the value of a coach and the quality of a roster.

Hey, let's be positive here. Now we don't have to listen to Gary complain about Stan Van Gundy anymore. Also, there are no more head coaches in the League who look like Ron Jeremy. Really, I'm failing to see the downside of this.

[sagegrouse]

Hey, let's be positive here. Now we don't have to listen to Gary complain about Stan Van Gundy anymore. Also, there are no more head coaches in the League who look like Ron Jeremy. Really, I'm failing to see the downside of this.

The downside is obvious. Stan gets a new job right away. He insists on a trade for JJ, so he can put him back on the bench.

sage

[theAlaskanBear]

Stan seems like a nice guy, but there's plenty of people on this board who would agree he was an average coach. Frankly, I think his firing will help JJ get some more minutes. I hope.

Let me emphasize this: Van Gundy had the FOURTH BEST NBA RECORD IN HIS TIME IN ORLANDO. That is not average, he is a great coach. More heat should be on Otis Smith who made a few boneheaded moves rather keep together or improve the team that made it to NBA Finals...some of these moves -- like Gilbert Arenas and Vince Carter were just awful. Yet the team kept competing.

Heck, even though the Magic got dumped in the first round, the way they competed at the end of the regular season and the first round series without Dwight is an evidence of good coaching. Van Gundy was very fair with JJ and he had him running the point and offense at times.

[Newton_14]

The Magic will not improve until they get a PG. It has been their main issue for 4 years now. Nelson is just not that good. I thought SVG was fair with JJ over the last 2.5 seasons as JJ became one of their more consistent players. Put a good PG on that team, and not only will Superman play better, JJ likely bumps his scoring avg another 3 or 4 ppg.

I agree with Alaskan that the player moves over the last 3 years were terrible. Especially bringing in Vince. I just hope for JJ's sake they get a good coach in there, but PG is still a major need.

[BD80]

... I just hope for JJ's sake they get a good coach in there, but PG is still a major need.

I hope they go for calipari - he must be a good pg coach: Rondo, Wall, Bledsoe, Knight, Teague ...

[_Gary]

Hey, let's be positive here. Now we don't have to listen to Gary complain about Stan Van Gundy anymore. Also, there are no more head coaches in the League who look like Ron Jeremy. Really, I'm failing to see the downside of this.

Thanks for keeping my name in the headlines, Throaty.

[hq2]

SVG was a maybe better than average coach. His teams usually did about as well as their talent would let them.
He did get to the finals a few years ago, and lost to a better Lakers team. I don't think JJs minutes will change
all that much, but a trade to a team that really wants/needs him wouldn't hurt.

[theAlaskanBear]

SVG was a maybe better than average coach. His teams usually did about as well as their talent would let them.
He did get to the finals a few years ago, and lost to a better Lakers team. I don't think JJs minutes will change
all that much, but a trade to a team that really wants/needs him wouldn't hurt.

JJ would look great in a Bulls uniform. Rose at point, JJ at SG, Deng at SF, Boozer at PF, Noah at C.

Hah!

[theAlaskanBear]

The Magic will not improve until they get a PG. It has been their main issue for 4 years now. Nelson is just not that good. I thought SVG was fair with JJ over the last 2.5 seasons as JJ became one of their more consistent players. Put a good PG on that team, and not only will Superman play better, JJ likely bumps his scoring avg another 3 or 4 ppg.

I agree with Alaskan that the player moves over the last 3 years were terrible. Especially bringing in Vince. I just hope for JJ's sake they get a good coach in there, but PG is still a major need.

This is spot on, in my opinion.

Hedo Turkoglu was the point-forward for the Magic...a way better playmaker and passer than Nelson. Letting him go to Toronto was a mistake because it left Nelson to be a true PG rather than being a tweener/combo guard.

[House G]

This is spot on, in my opinion.

Hedo Turkoglu was the point-forward for the Magic...a way better playmaker and passer than Nelson. Letting him go to Toronto was a mistake because it left Nelson to be a true PG rather than being a tweener/combo guard.

So Nelson passed it? I must have missed it.

[tommy]

I hope they go for calipari - he must be a good pg coach: Rondo, Wall, Bledsoe, Knight, Teague ...

Rondo left Kentucky after the 2006 season. Calipari was hired at UK in 2009, so he never coached him.

I know this isn't the thread for it, but I think all four of the other guys would've been about the same players and drafted in about the same positions (Teague pending) had they gone to any of a number of high major programs. What did Calipari really do to improve John Wall's game, for instance? The one who I think improved the most in his year at UK was Brandon Knight, but again, I'm pretty sure he would've been a lottery pick had he played his one year at Duke, UNC, Florida, Kansas, Georgetown, Syracuse, Ohio State, Michigan State, or any of a number of other top programs.

[BD80]

Rondo left Kentucky after the 2006 season. Calipari was hired at UK in 2009, so he never coached him.

I know this isn't the thread for it, but I think all four of the other guys would've been about the same players and drafted in about the same positions (Teague pending) had they gone to any of a number of high major programs. What did Calipari really do to improve John Wall's game, for instance? The one who I think improved the most in his year at UK was Brandon Knight, but again, I'm pretty sure he would've been a lottery pick had he played his one year at Duke, UNC, Florida, Kansas, Georgetown, Syracuse, Ohio State, Michigan State, or any of a number of other top programs.

Kinda my point. Rondo's the only one that has been "coached up" - by Doc Rivers - and was thrown in tongue-in-cheek, to illustrate the "perception" that calipari is a good point guard coach - I think he is the only other ky pg in the nba.

[jimsumner]

JJ would look great in a Bulls uniform. Rose at point, JJ at SG, Deng at SF, Boozer at PF, Noah at C.

Hah!

Redick signed with the Bulls a few years ago as a restricted free agent but Orlando had right-of-first-refusal and reeled him back.

Since then, the Bulls have acquired Kyle Korver and Richard Hamilton, so I'm not sure the need is still there.

[TampaDuke]

Let me emphasize this: Van Gundy had the FOURTH BEST NBA RECORD IN HIS TIME IN ORLANDO. That is not average, he is a great coach.

I don't know, Brian Hill sure had a great record, too.

For better or worse, the Magic had to fire SVG. The alternative would have been losing Howard for nothing or next to nothing and spending the next 10 years in mediocrity. The Magic have already seen that movie. It's not one they want to see again, particularly so soon after the opening of the new arena.

I don't necessarily like that a player can influence front office decisions so overtly, but it's a fact of life. Otis should take plenty of blame as well, but his worst decision may end up being not firing SVG a year ago when there was still time to convince Howard to stay. I doubt this move will work now, but the Magic had no choice but to try. Just my opinion, but its hard to see how the Magic repair the bridges already burned, short of a championship series appearance next year, which doesn't look plausible.

[Starter]

Just the latest example of how turning over the organization to one singular superstar who's coddled and enabled to the moon doesn't work. Cleveland let LeBron run roughshod, and check out where they're at. Orlando did the same nonsense with Dwight, and they're a complete mess with no coach or front office.

For the record, Stan Van can coach my team anytime.

[theAlaskanBear]

I don't know, Brian Hill sure had a great record, too.

For better or worse, the Magic had to fire SVG. The alternative would have been losing Howard for nothing or next to nothing and spending the next 10 years in mediocrity. The Magic have already seen that movie. It's not one they want to see again, particularly so soon after the opening of the new arena.

I don't necessarily like that a player can influence front office decisions so overtly, but it's a fact of life. Otis should take plenty of blame as well, but his worst decision may end up being not firing SVG a year ago when there was still time to convince Howard to stay. I doubt this move will work now, but the Magic had no choice but to try. Just my opinion, but its hard to see how the Magic repair the bridges already burned, short of a championship series appearance next year, which doesn't look plausible.

I'm not really fighting that idea. You are correct in many ways. The organization made the only move they could really make. I was just trying to fight the perception that Stan Van Gundy is an average coach which started to appear in the first few posts in the thread.

This was a forgone conclusion went Stan went public on Dwight. SVG probably saw the writing on the wall and was just tired of the charade.

[SupaDave]

Just the latest example of how turning over the organization to one singular superstar who's coddled and enabled to the moon doesn't work. Cleveland let LeBron run roughshod, and check out where they're at. Orlando did the same nonsense with Dwight, and they're a complete mess with no coach or front office.

For the record, Stan Van can coach my team anytime.

Or just another example of how an organization has wasted a superstar in his prime by not surrounding him with the right talent. Does Howard even have supporting post players? A low post player to take the double team off of him? It was obvious the Magic did NOT the way they got bounced from the playoffs. 8 guards on the roster, 3 rookies who barely see the floor, and an undersized center back-up who the Celts don't seem to miss.

[theAlaskanBear]

Or just another example of how an organization has wasted a superstar in his prime by not surrounding him with the right talent. Does Howard even have supporting post players? A low post player to take the double team off of him? It was obvious the Magic did NOT the way they got bounced from the playoffs. 8 guards on the roster, 3 rookies who barely see the floor, and an undersized center back-up who the Celts don't seem to miss.

Yeah, the team has seen a decline in its talent since the Finals run, but I think it based on a trifecta of things.

1) guard play: remember when Orlando had Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee and Tyronne Lue in addition to Jameer Nelson?

2) post defense: when Howard is sitting or foul trouble, they have no big men who can play adequate post defense. they used to have players like Marcin Gortat, and Adonal Foyle as back ups to Howard...Glen Davis and Ryan Howard are good big me, but they cant guard PF well let alone a C when Howard sits.

3) the age related decline of Hedo Turkoglu. When ORL was doing their thing -- Hedo was averaging 15-19 ppg, he was never the same after leaving ORL in 09-10 -- just over 10ppg since.

So I don't really see the problem as you do in regards to low post scoring to keep doubles off of Dwight. Anderson and Glen Davis are the most prolific scoring bigs he has ever played with...the difference is the interior D and guard play (Hedo pretty much falls into this camp anyway). Also add to the fact that the ORL offense is designed around Howard doubles that are supposed to free the perimeter for 3pt shots

In some ways, ORL was a victim of their own success -- they had a great supporting cast who caught the eyes of other teams -- like Alston, Lee, Gortat, Pietrus, Bass -- and you can't afford to keep them all.

[JasonEvans]

In fairness, Orlando's lack of help for Howard was not the fault of them not trying (like Cleveland). The Magic have had consistently one of the highest payrolls in the NBA the past several years. They were willing to spend the money... they just spent it foolishly. The amount of money they paid for Rashard Lewis was a disaster.

Anyway, I agree that SVG was a better than average NBA coach. I would love for the Hawks to pick him up but the Hawks are dead set on remaining as cheap as humanly possible when it comes to paying their coach.

-Jason "agree that the Magic need a quality PG... but that is true of a lot of NBA teams" Evans

[Starter]

Or just another example of how an organization has wasted a superstar in his prime by not surrounding him with the right talent. Does Howard even have supporting post players? A low post player to take the double team off of him? It was obvious the Magic did NOT the way they got bounced from the playoffs. 8 guards on the roster, 3 rookies who barely see the floor, and an undersized center back-up who the Celts don't seem to miss.

It's a good point, both franchises failed miserably to attempt to surround their singular star with talent, but I'd still contend the situations are pretty similar. The Cavs and Magic both did what they thought they had to do to placate their superstars and get them what they needed to succeed. Cleveland went out and got Larry Hughes, Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams and Shaq. All of those players were flawed in various ways, but they were doing their best to attempt to get LeBron players who were good, but not TOO good. If they had ended up with Amar'e Stoudemire, LeBron might still be there. With Howard, the Magic wanted to load up on shooters and waaaayyyy overpaid Rashard Lewis, then added Turkoglu and Gilbert Arenas. Again, they did what they thought they had to do, it was just misguided. In the meantime, they coddled the heck out of these guys, gave them way too much say in what was going on, and ended up losing them. (Dwight ain't staying there.)

[TampaDuke]

In fairness, Orlando's lack of help for Howard was not the fault of them not trying (like Cleveland). The Magic have had consistently one of the highest payrolls in the NBA the past several years. They were willing to spend the money... they just spent it foolishly. The amount of money they paid for Rashard Lewis was a disaster.

Spot on. The worst part of the Rashard Lewis contract was that there was no need to pay Lewis the kind of money they did. No other team was offering anything close to a max contract. Heck, the Magic even did a sign-and-trade deal with the Sonics so they could overpay Lewis a little more.

While I can give them credit for at least spending the money and trying to assemble a better team, some of the moves they've made the last several years are mind-boggling. To me, they always appeared to be paying a high premium for a "name" player past his prime (Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas, second coming of Turkoglu); an overvalued player (Lewis, Duhon, Q. Richardson); or a player that just wasn't an NBA-quality player any longer (Jason Williams, Larry Hughes, Darko). I'm half expecting the Magic to bring back Tracy McGrady or Steve Francis.

[TampaDuke]

It's a good point, both franchises failed miserably to attempt to surround their singular star with talent, but I'd still contend the situations are pretty similar. The Cavs and Magic both did what they thought they had to do to placate their superstars and get them what they needed to succeed. Cleveland went out and got Larry Hughes, Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams and Shaq. All of those players were flawed in various ways, but they were doing their best to attempt to get LeBron players who were good, but not TOO good. If they had ended up with Amar'e Stoudemire, LeBron might still be there. With Howard, the Magic wanted to load up on shooters and waaaayyyy overpaid Rashard Lewis, then added Turkoglu and Gilbert Arenas. Again, they did what they thought they had to do, it was just misguided. In the meantime, they coddled the heck out of these guys, gave them way too much say in what was going on, and ended up losing them. (Dwight ain't staying there.)

While no doubt true, there area also examples where this strategy has paid dividends (e.g., Kobe).

A big part of the organization's number one priority in this situation has to be to retain their superstar (or orchestrate a massive Dallas Cowboy-esque trade). In the Magic's case, they simply could not let history repeat itself. They lost Shaq in large part by staying loyal to their coach, only to watch Shaq go on to win championships while the Magic coach was shown the door soon thereafter. Were that to happen again, I would think the days of NBA basketball in Orlando would be numbered.

SVG's firing is no doubt a desperation move that everyone knew was coming when Howard exercised his option earlier this year, but at this point the Magic have few options. Personally, I think they have to either sign Howard to a long-term deal this summer (unlikely) or trade him this summer to a team that he is willing to sign a long-term deal with. They'll have no leverage to get anything in return if they wait until the deadline again (and they likely have little leverage now since the writing is already on the wall).

[Starter]

While no doubt true, there area also examples where this strategy has paid dividends (e.g., Kobe).

A big part of the organization's number one priority in this situation has to be to retain their superstar (or orchestrate a massive Dallas Cowboy-esque trade). In the Magic's case, they simply could not let history repeat itself. They lost Shaq in large part by staying loyal to their coach, only to watch Shaq go on to win championships while the Magic coach was shown the door soon thereafter. Were that to happen again, I would think the days of NBA basketball in Orlando would be numbered.

SVG's firing is no doubt a desperation move that everyone knew was coming when Howard exercised his option earlier this year, but at this point the Magic have few options. Personally, I think they have to either sign Howard to a long-term deal this summer (unlikely) or trade him this summer to a team that he is willing to sign a long-term deal with. They'll have no leverage to get anything in return if they wait until the deadline again (and they likely have little leverage now since the writing is already on the wall).

Well, I mean, Gasol was manna from heaven for the Lakers. Put him on either Cleveland or Orlando, and they win, IT'S THAT simple. If that trade didn't come along, even with Bynum, Kobe was on his way to requesting trades, etc. And if they had put a bunch of mediocre veterans around him, they don't stay championship level, and it probably works out a lot like how it did in Orlando.

Van Gundy was out the door the day he went to the media and aired out Howard for telling management he wanted him gone. He essentially resigned by doing that, but man, what a way to go out. (And he was as good as gone anyway.)

[TampaDuke]

Well, I mean, Gasol was manna from heaven for the Lakers. Put him on either Cleveland or Orlando, and they win, IT'S THAT simple. If that trade didn't come along, even with Bynum, Kobe was on his way to requesting trades, etc. And if they had put a bunch of mediocre veterans around him, they don't stay championship level, and it probably works out a lot like how it did in Orlando.

Van Gundy was out the door the day he went to the media and aired out Howard for telling management he wanted him gone. He essentially resigned by doing that, but man, what a way to go out. (And he was as good as gone anyway.)

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that.

I'm not all that comfortable with the coddled superstars being able to orchestrate front office decisions, particularly seeing as how it always seems to be done in the media with the player himself insisting it's not true. That said, these guys are a big part of the franchise so it would serve management well to keep them in the loop and to get their input on management decisions. They just need to figure out a more constructive way of doing it.

[Starter]

Well, I mean, Gasol was manna from heaven for the Lakers. Put him on either Cleveland or Orlando, and they win, IT'S THAT simple. If that trade didn't come along, even with Bynum, Kobe was on his way to requesting trades, etc. And if they had put a bunch of mediocre veterans around him, they don't stay championship level, and it probably works out a lot like how it did in Orlando.

Van Gundy was out the door the day he went to the media and aired out Howard for telling management he wanted him gone. He essentially resigned by doing that, but man, what a way to go out. (And he was as good as gone anyway.)

Note: I didn't mean to emphasize IT'S THAT up there. (And I probably didn't need to correct this, but I'm an editor for a living and it was bugging me...)

[Starter]

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that.

I'm not all that comfortable with the coddled superstars being able to orchestrate front office decisions, particularly seeing as how it always seems to be done in the media with the player himself insisting it's not true. That said, these guys are a big part of the franchise so it would serve management well to keep them in the loop and to get their input on management decisions. They just need to figure out a more constructive way of doing it.

I hate to say it, but I'm not sure there's a good way to do it. These guys aren't always the best with this. In theory, at least, your front office should be able to better dictate what a successful team is going to be than any player on the team. I always think about Michael Jordan lobbying Jerry Krause to draft Joe Wolf -- a fellow Carolina guy and humongous NBA bust -- over Scottie Pippen. Not that Krause didn't have his issues, most of them interpersonal, but the guy knew basketball. Jordan's horrible instincts there were a precursor to his terrible draft record as an executive. If he had his way with the Wolf pick, there's no way they win all those championships. Some, maybe, since Jordan was awesome, but he would have deprived the franchise of a Top 5 player that was integral to their success.

I think the best way to do it is probably to just earn the player's trust, indicate that you know what you're doing and promise that if he just sits back and watches, he'll get the team he needs. Or, you can make knee-jerk moves to placate the superstar, and it won't end any better -- and probably would end up far worse -- than if you traded him right off the bat. And what I suggested, of course, is easier said than done.

[FerryFor50]

Or just another example of how an organization has wasted a superstar in his prime by not surrounding him with the right talent. Does Howard even have supporting post players? A low post player to take the double team off of him? It was obvious the Magic did NOT the way they got bounced from the playoffs. 8 guards on the roster, 3 rookies who barely see the floor, and an undersized center back-up who the Celts don't seem to miss.

The way I understood it, Howard lobbied to bring Big Baby in.

And I'm sure Howard has had some of the say in other players that came in. I mean, if a player has the power to get the coach and GM fired, I would imagine he has the power to give input on who gets signed or traded/traded for.

If Jameer Nelson hadn't been so untradeable, he'd have been gone long ago. Howard didn't really like him.

[Billy Dat]

Big Baby should be D.Howard's nickname.

Stan Van helped turn him into the player he is today, and I think that someday he'll realize it was a mistake to force him out.

I also think Stan Van made JJ the player he is today as I feel that JJ has maximized his potential as a pro because Stan Van helped him become an above average team defensive player.

The ship has sailed on the coddling of NBA stars. Howard is the best player at his position, which makes him one of the most important 5 players in the entire league. Guys at that level win nearly every struggle against coaches and front office types. While I don't think Otis Smith did a great job, the team that made a run to the finals was a lot of fun to watch. As others have mentioned, the Lewis contract was the torpedo.

I love Stan Van - I'm with Starter in that he can coach my team anytime.

[SupaDave]

To be honest, a dream scenario for me is Howard and JJ to the Lakers for Gasol, Bynum, Blake, and World Peace. By dumping all those salaries the Lakers can then pursue a point guard. Hell, I'll even take Van Gundy as coach!!

If you thought this year's off-season was crazy - look out summer!!!

[Indoor66]

If you thought this year's off-season was crazy - look out summer!!!

And think of it, only 5 1/2 months until Duke plays again. :mad:

[Edouble]

To be honest, a dream scenario for me is Howard and JJ to the Lakers for Gasol, Bynum, Blake, and World Peace. By dumping all those salaries the Lakers can then pursue a point guard. Hell, I'll even take Van Gundy as coach!!

If you thought this year's off-season was crazy - look out summer!!!

This is the kind of DBR post that kills me. If I posted this, or someone else who is not established in the culture of the site posts this, they get hammered with rude insults.

I digress.

To my point... does JJ go into the second unit or does Kobe play small forward in this scenario? I don't get it. I get the idea of a superstar point, Kobe, and Howard, but I don't understand why JJ is included in the trade. I know you are not generally an over the top Duke homer with regard to your NBA posts, so your post puzzles me. I was under the impression that JJ's contract was at a level where he would need to be playing more than limited Kobe-backup minutes. There's no way you can move Kobe to the 3 at this point in his career, especially not to acquire a player like JJ. If it was to accomodate, say, Russell Westbrook and Chris Paul both joining the team, I could see it. But for JJ... no.

[throatybeard]

With Berkman's injury, I'm super excited that JJ can play 1B in Saint Louis. We all know SVG has just been holding him back from his true potential.

[SupaDave]

This is the kind of DBR post that kills me. If I posted this, or someone else who is not established in the culture of the site posts this, they get hammered with rude insults.

I digress.

To my point... does JJ go into the second unit or does Kobe play small forward in this scenario? I don't get it. I get the idea of a superstar point, Kobe, and Howard, but I don't understand why JJ is included in the trade. I know you are not generally an over the top Duke homer with regard to your NBA posts, so your post puzzles me. I was under the impression that JJ's contract was at a level where he would need to be playing more than limited Kobe-backup minutes. There's no way you can move Kobe to the 3 at this point in his career, especially not to acquire a player like JJ. If it was to accomodate, say, Russell Westbrook and Chris Paul both joining the team, I could see it. But for JJ... no.



JJ actually handles the ball quite frequently for Orlando and additionally, perhaps you didn't see the Lakers get blasted b/c they had little perimeter game to deal with the sweet shooting Thunder who came at them from every direction. Surely you recall Jordan and Paxson on the floor at the same, or Jordan and Kerr and BJ Armstrong. In fact, at one point the Bulls had Kerr, Paxson, AND Armstrong all on the roster.

If the Lakers have Howard as the Help defense then there's no reason why JJ can't play the point (he fares quite well defensively) and Kobe can't be over there locking down the 2 guard on the other squad.

IF basketball was some rigid game then MAYBE I would sound silly and you would be correct to think that JJ shouldn't go to Lakers but you're also talking about a guy on team that gets PT with EIGHT other guards on the roster. Oh and JJ hits game winning shots.

Plus, my deal is realistic. The Lakers would want VALUE for that many players and whatever Gasol has left in him so their needs will be a big man and a shooter. Who cares about their contracts? Kobe is scheduled to make a gazillion in the next 2 years - restructure that a little to give him some players and everyone wins.

But of course your idea of taking two super star players from two different playoff teams to move Kobe to the three is much more plausible than mine...

[sagegrouse]

I also think Stan Van made JJ the player he is today as I feel that JJ has maximized his potential as a pro because Stan Van helped him become an above average team defensive player.



Near the end of John Wooden's tenure at UCLA, when the Big Redhead was the star of the team, local sports writers teased him about Walton, saying that if the Walton and Alcindor were on the same team, Walton would play forward. Wooden responded emphatically, "You may be right, but don't you be too sure about it!"

And you may be right: JJ may have reached his potential in the NBA, but don't you be too sure about it. I would like to see JJ get a run with another team. JJ had career highs in minutes (27), scoring (11.6) and 3-point shooting (41.8%). His defense is excellent, and he looks and plays strong.

How about a place for JJ in an NBA starting lineup? Somewhere. Anywhere.

sagegrouse

[Billy Dat]

And you may be right: JJ may have reached his potential in the NBA, but don't you be too sure about it. I would like to see JJ get a run with another team. JJ had career highs in minutes (27), scoring (11.6) and 3-point shooting (41.8%). His defense is excellent, and he looks and plays strong.

How about a place for JJ in an NBA starting lineup? Somewhere. Anywhere.

sagegrouse

I agree that JJ could start for an NBA team, and I think there's always a chance that a player could have an extra gear. I think my statements about JJ are in reaction to a segment of posters who feel that he's never reached his potential because he hasn't been given a chance to shine in the NBA. I think those sentiments don't give him enough credit for how much better a player he has become in the NBA so I tend to push my "maximized potential" rebuttal, which grew stronger for me as I watched him try and create his own shot this year - something he has a lot of difficulty doing. I think he's an excellent shooter (spot up, off screens), I think he has honed a nice pump fake on the close out which he uses to set up a side step 3, a drive jump stop 15 footer, an uncontested drive to the hole, and a drive and kick. I think he's the only guy on the Magic that always got the ball to D. Howard as a #1 priority, and we talked about his defense. Plus, he executes the coaches gameplan and is, overall, a smart player. When he became a free agent, he prioritized playing for a winner over being a starter. Based on what I've seen - I feel like he's maxed out. But, barring injury, he is only halfway through his career and in the thick of his prime. With Orlando in the midst of a huge overhaul, one that likely won't include Dwight Howard as I am sure they'll try to move him, JJ may finally get the chance to start and show that extra gear. If he has it, no one will be happier than me.

[Edouble]

But of course your idea of taking two super star players from two different playoff teams to move Kobe to the three is much more plausible than mine...

Just for the sake of argument. It is related back to the entirety of what I wrote. It is not something that I am proposing, or that I think would happen. No need to get snippy. We are all just Duke fans here (for the most part).

[BD80]

... Oh and JJ hits game winning shots. ...

JJ would never get that opportunity if on a team with Kobe, unless he can crash the board for a tip of a Kobe miss

[SupaDave]

JJ would never get that opportunity if on a team with Kobe, unless he can crash the board for a tip of a Kobe miss

Nearly a certainty I'd say BUT a team wouldn't leave him open like the Thunder did Steve Blake.

[throatybeard]

Dwight Howard in 2012-13. Hmmm.

[NSDukeFan]

Dwight Howard in 2012-13. Hmmm.

Are you suggesting that perhaps Stan Van Gundy was not the problem?