NBA Playoffs Thread

[Greg_Newton]

Am I missing one, or is there no thread for this yet?

Bulls thoroughly dominated the Sixers earlier, but Rose suffered a cringeworthy knee injury while inexplicably still in with 1:23 left. Looks like it could have been an ACL/MCL... huge. Greyboard's posts from a few weeks ago about the risks of relying on hard-charging PGs looking very prescient all of a sudden.

Meanwhile, the Heat are starting to run the Knicks out of the building as of halftime. Chandler setting some head-scratchingly dirty screens (clocked James from behind pretty bad just before halftime, although it didn't look like a flagrant to me), but Battier playing terrific - hit several threes, blocking shots, drawing charges, scrapping on the boards; he's been really fun to watch today.

[Duvall]

Did Seth Greenberg take a job as a special assistant for the Knicks? This meltdown is impressive.

[dukedoc]

Dang, Derrick Rose reportedly gone with ACL and MCL tears. Terrible news.

ADDENDUM: Disregard - the NBC affiliate that reported this has retracted their initial report. Details have not been confirmed.

[dukedoc]

Did Seth Greenberg take a job as a special assistant for the Knicks? This meltdown is impressive.

I think this is proof that the Knicks NEED Calipari. John, please go save the Knicks and leave college basketball ALONE.

[Greg_Newton]

Ouch, Shumpert down with another brutal-looking non-contact knee injury. Tough day so far for guards and knees. Somewhere, greybeard is stroking his beard wisely...

ETA: WOW, that is terrible news dukedoc. Absolutely hate to see something so completely destructive like that happen to one of the greats just as he's entering the prime of his career.

[dukedoc]

Ouch, Shumpert down with another brutal-looking non-contact knee injury. Tough day so far for guards and knees. Somewhere, greybeard is stroking his beard wisely...

ETA: WOW, that is terrible news dukedoc. Absolutely hate to see something so completely destructive like that happen to one of the greats just as he's entering the prime of his career.

The NBC outlet that reported the D Rose injury news is now retracting it. Sorry, I didn't mean to monger. I saw it was an NBC affiliate and thought that was adequate. Apparently the exact details are still unclear.

[Greg_Newton]

Lebron James trailing the New York Knicks 47-32 after 3 quarters. Hopefully he can step it up in the 4th. :p

Shane (with some help from Lebron) is doing a terrific job on Carmelo. I've never been a Heat fan, but it's great to see him playing such an integral role on such a great team.

[Greg_Newton]

ESPN just reported that Rose did, indeed, tear his ACL. Terrible news.

[BobbyFan]

ESPN just reported that Rose did, indeed, tear his ACL. Terrible news.

Yeah, it is. I was really looking forward to Bulls vs. Heat.

[Dukehky]

I really fear for D-Rose's future. I just don't know how after this year he can continue to be the type of player that he was. If you're Chicago though, you can't do anything about it right now, just have to stay behind him and hope that he can return to himself. This is a devastating injury and I feel so bad for that team who I thoroughly enjoy watching play.

[Johnny Chill]

Lebron James trailing the New York Knicks 47-32 after 3 quarters. Hopefully he can step it up in the 4th. :p

Shane (with some help from Lebron) is doing a terrific job on Carmelo. I've never been a Heat fan, but it's great to see him playing such an integral role on such a great team.

Battier absolutely shut Anthony down. The Heat are getting exactly what they expect out of Shane when they signed him.

[muzikfrk75]

The Rose injury has to be devastating for the Bulls. Just bad luck all season.

As for the Shumpert injury, if it is bad, who's going to guard Wade?

[muzikfrk75]

Dwight Howard isn't even at the Magic-Pacers game. I know that he probably had to because of surgery, but it just doesn't seem right.

[Chris Randolph]

Celtics are the only team who can give the Heat trouble in the East. Seems like the West could be won by a number of teams: Spurs, Thunder, Lakers, Grizz. I like the Spurs coming out of the West and beating the Heat in the finals. Whether or not Stern allows back to back non "superstar/flashy" teams to win the NBA title will be interesting to see.

I've always liked the NBA playoffs post first round because the matchups are usually real competitive. The intensity is high and the players seem to play with more pride. The only thing that bugs me and it is an all the time thing in the NBA is the flopping by stars and the calls they get.

[Greg_Newton]

Hansbrough still verbally flopping his way to the line, I see. I would love to never have to hear "Hansbrough to the rim [blaaaauuurghhh]... late call, foul" again.

ETA: Man, Duhon does not look good...

[Johnny Chill]

Dwight Howard isn't even at the Magic-Pacers game. I know that he probably had to because of surgery, but it just doesn't seem right.

Nah, its better for the team that he isnt there. Hope he doesnt show up when they are at home either. Dwightmare.

[Dukehky]

Anybody else see Duhon with the travel dance after Granger was called for that walk? Hilarious

[Acymetric]

Anybody else see Duhon with the travel dance after Granger was called for that walk? Hilarious

Would love to see a video of this...

And with a little effort...

Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crSD-x-IvFc)

Hilarious.

[moonpie23]

didn't see the game....was duhon in street clothes?

[Dukehky]

didn't see the game....was duhon in street clothes?

No, he played 10 minutes with 1 assist and 2 turnovers. Not his strongest performance, but I thought made up for it.

Thanks for the link Acymetric, should have put some more effort in, but alas, I didn't

[Chris Randolph]

Mavs fan here. Don't expect them to win more than 1 game in this series. Durant is flat out clutch. Struggled all game, no fear when they had to have it. Gets it done. Props to him and OKC

[subzero02]

I am pretty surprised orlando won... The pacers' lack of precision shooters helped the upset cause

[CDu]

Wow. Just devastating news for the Bulls and for Rose. This was a team that had a very legitimate shot at the title. They were finally getting healthy and had the depth, defensive chops, and toughness to beat the Heat. Rose and Watson could torch the Miami PG, and the Bulls bench could expose what is a very subpar Miami supporting cast. Without Rose, they're still one of the best teams in the league. But I don't think they can beat the Heat, and I'm not sure they can beat the Celtics either.

It stinks for Rose as a player, too. He's a guy who succeeded because he was so superior athletically. He's not the greatest passer in the world and not a great shooter. He's sort of like a Jay Williams minus the perimeter shot and some strength, but plus a bit more hops. It was always going to be interesting to see how he aged as a player and his athleticism faded. Now, there's a legitimate concern that he won't be the same explosive player he was pre-injury.

Uggh. Tough news for a Bulls fan. If they're going to win it, it's going to be up to Deng, Boozer, Noah, Watson, and the reserves to step it up a notch. But I think that injury signals the death knell of the Bulls as a title contender this year.

[Starter]

Personally, I don't think the Bulls would have beaten the Heat even with Rose. They won the most games in the league last year too, then lost in five games to Miami, and little has changed with these two teams (except that the Heat have Battier and Norris Cole).

But I would have liked to find out. The playoffs took a huge hit with the Rose injury.

[CDu]

Personally, I don't think the Bulls would have beaten the Heat even with Rose. They won the most games in the league last year too, then lost in five games to Miami, and little has changed with these two teams (except that the Heat have Battier and Norris Cole).

But I would have liked to find out. The playoffs took a huge hit with the Rose injury.

I think you're underselling the Bulls' changes. First, they replaced Bogans with Hamilton (an upgrade at both ends of the floor at the position for which they were weakest last year). Second, they have a healthier Boozer. Third, all of their young guys (Rose, Watson, Asik, Noah, and Gibson) have another year's worth of playoff experience and savvy under their belts.

The Bulls managed the best record in the East this year despite having Rose miss 1/3 of the regular season. If that had happened last year, the Bulls could have easily been a lower-half seed. They were far better this year than last. But losing Rose changes everything.

[Starter]

I think you're underselling the Bulls' changes. First, they replaced Bogans with Hamilton (an upgrade at both ends of the floor at the position for which they were weakest last year). Second, they have a healthier Boozer. Third, all of their young guys (Rose, Watson, Asik, Noah, and Gibson) have another year's worth of playoff experience and savvy under their belts.

The Bulls managed the best record in the East this year despite having Rose miss 1/3 of the regular season. If that had happened last year, the Bulls could have easily been a lower-half seed. They were far better this year than last. But losing Rose changes everything.

I hear you, though with all due respect, I personally don't have the feeling that I'm underselling the Bulls' changes at all. If I recall, Boozer was perfectly healthy for the playoffs last year and performed well. Noah was basically the same guy as always this year. And I don't recall any of the rest of those guys making major strides at all, though you can correct me if I'm wrong. (I might be.) If the only real personnel switch was Bogans for Hamilton, who at his age isn't exactly a world-beater, I still fail to see how they would have made up enough ground on the Heat, who returned the same team that walloped them last year but added Battier. It's cliched, but you can't judge Battier's impact solely on his numbers, probably more so than any other player in the league. Mario Chalmers, for one, was a visibly improved player this year from last. And besides, regular-season records don't mean a lot to me, and it's not like Wade didn't miss his fair share of games as well. Maybe it would have been Heat in six, up from five?

But again... I guess we'll never know for sure.

[Greg_Newton]

Bynum is so huge. He's just standing straight up with his hands in the air and absolutely dominating on both ends of the court.

[Starter]

Bynum is so huge. He's just standing straight up with his hands in the air and absolutely dominating on both ends of the court.

It still kills me that the Knicks took Channing Frye over Bynum. I was begging them to pick Bynum. I had no idea he'd be this good, but I had some idea he'd be this huge. Thanks Isiah.

[CDu]

I hear you, though with all due respect, I personally don't have the feeling that I'm underselling the Bulls' changes at all. If I recall, Boozer was perfectly healthy for the playoffs last year and performed well. Noah was basically the same guy as always this year. And I don't recall any of the rest of those guys making major strides at all, though you can correct me if I'm wrong. (I might be.) If the only real personnel switch was Bogans for Hamilton, who at his age isn't exactly a world-beater, I still fail to see how they would have made up enough ground on the Heat, who returned the same team that walloped them last year but added Battier. It's cliched, but you can't judge Battier's impact solely on his numbers, probably more so than any other player in the league. Mario Chalmers, for one, was a visibly improved player this year from last. And besides, regular-season records don't mean a lot to me, and it's not like Wade didn't miss his fair share of games as well. Maybe it would have been Heat in six, up from five?

But again... I guess we'll never know for sure.

Boozer was dealing with foot and toe injuries throughout the playoffs last year. Those injuries made him much less mobile and robbed him of any lift at all. As such, he really struggled in the playoffs.

As for the other guys, it doesn't show up in the count stats (because they play limited minutes), but Asik and Gibson made a big jump in effectiveness, to the point that Thibadeau doesn't mind playing those two for the 4th quarter in place of Noah and Boozer. They have become really terrific defensively. Deng has also continued to improve defensively and with his perimeter shot. Noah has improved his decisionmaking, delivering more assists, fewer turnovers, and fewer fouls. And the aforementioned Hamilton is a HUGE upgrade from Bogans. Hamilton is by no means a star, but he's so much better than Bogans it isn't funny. His ability to run relentlessly off screens and hit midrange shots means teams can't be quite as focused on Rose, which helps a lot. And it allows the offense to run similarly when Korver comes in.

As for the Heat. Battier is a nice role player. But the Heat are perhaps the team that benefits least from adding him. He just doesn't fit as well with what the Heat do. On a team like the Lakers or Spurs, he's a stud role player. And while Wade missed time, he missed 10 fewer games than Rose did. And while the Heat won in 5, most of those games were very tight with the Heat coming out on top. It wouldn't take a dramatic improvement for the Bulls to reverse the result. And I think the Bulls supporting cast has improved a LOT more than the Heat's supporting cast. Obviously we'll never know unless the Bulls somehow beat the Heat without Rose (which seems extremely unlikely). Such a disappointment.

The sad thing is that it may affect next year as well. We're talking about at least 6-9 months of recovery time for Rose, which means he won't be ready until around the all star break. And who knows if he'll ever be the same player, considering how much he relied on freakish athleticism.

[Newton_14]

Bynum is so huge. He's just standing straight up with his hands in the air and absolutely dominating on both ends of the court.

Yeah, dude was a beast today, and Kobe had a very surgeon like 31. The Lakers will be a tough out. The thing with Bynum, is how good would he be were he fully healthy and in great shape? He is only 24, but he looks 34 out there at times. You have to wonder how many years he can sustain.

[Greg_Newton]

Bynum's supposedly a legit 7'3+ in shoes at this point, and his wingspan was already over 7'6 before he grew the last couple of inches. I hadn't quite realized how huge he'd become.

Supposedly he's doing some innovative procedure this summer in Europe for his knees, whatever Kobe did last summer. Doesn't necessarily seem like the most likable guy in the world, but always hate to see a career cut short by injuries.

[Starter]

Boozer was dealing with foot and toe injuries throughout the playoffs last year. Those injuries made him much less mobile and robbed him of any lift at all. As such, he really struggled in the playoffs.

As for the other guys, it doesn't show up in the count stats (because they play limited minutes), but Asik and Gibson made a big jump in effectiveness, to the point that Thibadeau doesn't mind playing those two for the 4th quarter in place of Noah and Boozer. They have become really terrific defensively. Deng has also continued to improve defensively and with his perimeter shot. Noah has improved his decisionmaking, delivering more assists, fewer turnovers, and fewer fouls. And the aforementioned Hamilton is a HUGE upgrade from Bogans. Hamilton is by no means a star, but he's so much better than Bogans it isn't funny. His ability to run relentlessly off screens and hit midrange shots means teams can't be quite as focused on Rose, which helps a lot. And it allows the offense to run similarly when Korver comes in.

As for the Heat. Battier is a nice role player. But the Heat are perhaps the team that benefits least from adding him. He just doesn't fit as well with what the Heat do. On a team like the Lakers or Spurs, he's a stud role player. And while Wade missed time, he missed 10 fewer games than Rose did. And while the Heat won in 5, most of those games were very tight with the Heat coming out on top. It wouldn't take a dramatic improvement for the Bulls to reverse the result. And I think the Bulls supporting cast has improved a LOT more than the Heat's supporting cast. Obviously we'll never know unless the Bulls somehow beat the Heat without Rose (which seems extremely unlikely). Such a disappointment.

The sad thing is that it may affect next year as well. We're talking about at least 6-9 months of recovery time for Rose, which means he won't be ready until around the all star break. And who knows if he'll ever be the same player, considering how much he relied on freakish athleticism.

Definitely some things that we agree on, and others we don't. I looked back and you're right, Boozer messed up his toe in the first round. I kind of have gotten desensitized to it at this point since he's literally always hurt, and he didn't miss any games. But it's to his credit that he still put up 26-17 and 20-11 games against the Heat despite not having anybody to credibly match up with when they'd go small. Dude has talent, it's just that I'd assume given his liabilities, Chicago has some buyer's remorse by this point.

My feeling actually is that Battier is exactly what the Heat needed: a veteran presence who can take some of the dirty work so that LeBron doesn't have to do it all the time. He was instrumental in Spoelstra's game plan to completely obliterate Carmelo Anthony yesterday. If they play the Thunder or Lakers in the Finals, Shane will be instrumental in messing with their stars, and they could have used him against Nowitzki last year. I think Miami was the perfect landing spot for Shane to seamlessly blend in with championship level players, and they were the perfect team to benefit from the subtle brilliance he offers. It's no coincidence that one of the best defensive teams last year, a slight notch below Chicago, got even better this season.

The biggest reason the Heat would have beaten the Bulls at full strength again, that we haven't touched on yet? LeBron James has somehow reached another level this season. He takes it in the post more than ever, shot by far the highest percentage of his career, he might be the best defensive player in the league. The Heat went 13-1 without Wade. He's hands-down the MVP of the league, a force to be reckoned with, and I'm eager to see whether he can finally quiet his skeptics by taking over down the stretch in the Finals. (He did that against Chicago, not against Dallas.) I wouldn't bet against him.

[pfrduke]

I'm sure most of the east coast had turned off the game, but the amazing 28-3 finish by the Clippers to perform absolute highway robbery in Memphis was quite a sight to behold. Memphis was up 95-71 with 8 minutes to play. And lost. Scoring just 3 points the rest of the way. It was still a 12 point lead with under 3 minutes to play before Nick Young caught fire from deep, nailing three triples in 60 seconds, cutting the lead to 3, at which point Memphis just wilted. That was just about as crazy as our comeback at the dump on the hump this year - one of those games where you have no idea how it happened but then all of a sudden you've won. Impressive fight from the Clippers.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Officiaing in the Knicks-Heat series is a joke. Heat are +34 in FT attempts mid 3rd Q of game 2 and it's not like the Knicks haven't tried to drive. For every foul called when Carmelo tries he's hacked multiple trips without a call. James, Wade, and Bosh get sent to the line anytime they get touched or flop.

[muzikfrk75]

Amare Amare....

[superdave]

Amare Amare....

Wow. What a moron. The Knicks would not have won this season, but Amare let his teammates down in a big way. Very selfish.

Battier played great D on Melo last night. I did not know Shane could still move his feet like that. Battier was a +2 on the night while Melo was -11. Lebron played on Melo the rest of the time I was watching.

[muzikfrk75]

As I predicted, the Knicks now have nobody to guard Wade since Shump went down. I think he scored 19 of his 25 points in the paint last night.

[moonpie23]

stupid is as stupid does..... :(

[CDu]

Wow. What a moron. The Knicks would not have won this season, but Amare let his teammates down in a big way. Very selfish.

Battier played great D on Melo last night. I did not know Shane could still move his feet like that. Battier was a +2 on the night while Melo was -11. Lebron played on Melo the rest of the time I was watching.

Well, I'm not sure I'd say Battier did a great job on Anthony, as he went for 30, shot better than his season average, and could have had a few more from the line.

The Knicks lost the game on the other end of the floor. They couldn't defend Wade or Bosh, and Battier and Miller stepped up and hit some 3s off the bench. The Knicks shot 49% from the field, but you aren't likely to win if you allow the opponent to shoot 52% from the field.

[Starter]

Well, I'm not sure I'd say Battier did a great job on Anthony, as he went for 30, shot better than his season average, and could have had a few more from the line.

The Knicks lost the game on the other end of the floor. They couldn't defend Wade or Bosh, and Battier and Miller stepped up and hit some 3s off the bench. The Knicks shot 49% from the field, but you aren't likely to win if you allow the opponent to shoot 52% from the field.

Carmelo definitely had a better personal experience than Game 1. He's one of the best scorers in the game; he's on, he's going to get buckets and look good doing it. But the Heat tightened up on him big time down the stretch. He shot 3-for-8 in the second half and didn't connect on a shot for like 20 straight minutes of game time. That said, he wasn't getting much help.

Agreed on the Knicks' defense. Two things are killing them: Shumpert's knee injury took away their only credible defender on Wade, and Chandler hasn't been himself playing with the flu. The Knicks were actually a pretty good defensive team most of the season, even before D'Antoni left. Of course, I'm not making excuses -- the Heat can make a lot of teams look bad, and I thought the Knicks would win a game at most before the series began.

[Starter]

Anyone catch Bosh's videobomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0mZmLGT34nQ) of LeBron?

[muzikfrk75]

Tonight we have

Celtics @ Hawks
Nuggets @ Lakers
Sixers @ Bulls

Will any of the home teams lose tonight?

[muzikfrk75]

Carmelo definitely had a better personal experience than Game 1. He's one of the best scorers in the game; he's on, he's going to get buckets and look good doing it. But the Heat tightened up on him big time down the stretch. He shot 3-for-8 in the second half and didn't connect on a shot for like 20 straight minutes of game time. That said, he wasn't getting much help.

Agreed on the Knicks' defense. Two things are killing them: Shumpert's knee injury took away their only credible defender on Wade, and Chandler hasn't been himself playing with the flu. The Knicks were actually a pretty good defensive team most of the season, even before D'Antoni left. Of course, I'm not making excuses -- the Heat can make a lot of teams look bad, and I thought the Knicks would win a game at most before the series began.

Before the series I actually thought that the Knicks could push the Heat to 7 games, but I obviously don't think that now. There's an article on ESPN stating that the Knicks actually play worse when Amare is on the floor.

[CDu]

Tonight we have

Celtics @ Hawks
Nuggets @ Lakers
Sixers @ Bulls

Will any of the home teams lose tonight?

If Rondo and Allen were playing, I'd say the Hawks might lose. With Rondo now out and Allen not likely to play (and not likely to play well if he does play), I'd say the Hawks go up 2-0. I don't see the Lakers or Bulls (even without Rose) losing, either. So I say no. The most likely squad to take the "L" would be Chicago, but I think that team is still better than the Sixers, even without Rose.

[theAlaskanBear]

Before the series I actually thought that the Knicks could push the Heat to 7 games, but I obviously don't think that now. There's an article on ESPN stating that the Knicks actually play worse when Amare is on the floor.

Yeah, this is largely a function of his defense and rebounding. He is a way better scorer than Chandler, but I wouldnt trust Amare to gaurd anyone, although he did have a block against Bosh.

About the Heat: Battier has stepped up big time and is starting to heat up from three. Also, you couldnt PAY me to take a charge on LeBron James.


Celtics @ Hawks
Nuggets @ Lakers
Sixers @ Bulls

Will any of the home teams lose tonight?

Both the Celtics and the Sixers I would give a 50% chance of winning, the Nuggets just 20%. Boston came out without effort in the first game, expect them to play really tough against the Hawks tonight. I still think the Bulls pull out the win...but the Sixers are playing playing well and you never know. The Nuggets should lose, they don't have the size to play against LA. Unless they can figure out a way to speed LA up they have no hope.

[Billy Dat]

My feeling actually is that Battier is exactly what the Heat needed: a veteran presence who can take some of the dirty work so that LeBron doesn't have to do it all the time. He was instrumental in Spoelstra's game plan to completely obliterate Carmelo Anthony yesterday. If they play the Thunder or Lakers in the Finals, Shane will be instrumental in messing with their stars, and they could have used him against Nowitzki last year. I think Miami was the perfect landing spot for Shane to seamlessly blend in with championship level players, and they were the perfect team to benefit from the subtle brilliance he offers. It's no coincidence that one of the best defensive teams last year, a slight notch below Chicago, got even better this season.


Last night, the Heat started with James on Carmelo and he was locking him up pretty good. Then, Shane came in to guard Carmelo and Melo completely destroyed him for the rest of the first quarter. I think he had 12 of his 14 in Q1 with Shane guarding him, including an array of pull-ups, drives - the full repertoire. At this point, Shane can't guard him one-on-one. Shane was promptly sent to the bench. However, he played him much better in the second half, and he got a lot more support from his teammates. The fact that he knocked down three 3s helped his mojo. If the Heat are going to win it, I want Shane to play a meaningful role. The pundits are all saying that he isn't nearly the same player he was a few years ago, and the first quarter made those words seem true. But, the staff seems to play him in crunch time and he executes the game plan flawlessly, which counts for something.

[theAlaskanBear]

Last night, the Heat started with James on Carmelo and he was locking him up pretty good. Then, Shane came in to guard Carmelo and Melo completely destroyed him for the rest of the first quarter. I think he had 12 of his 14 in Q1 with Shane guarding him, including an array of pull-ups, drives - the full repertoire. At this point, Shane can't guard him one-on-one. Shane was promptly sent to the bench. However, he played him much better in the second half, and he got a lot more support from his teammates. The fact that he knocked down three 3s helped his mojo. If the Heat are going to win it, I want Shane to play a meaningful role. The pundits are all saying that he isn't nearly the same player he was a few years ago, and the first quarter made those words seem true. But, the staff seems to play him in crunch time and he executes the game plan flawlessly, which counts for something.

Gotta give credit to Woodson, in the first game Battier, James and the Heat did a terrific job with ball denial (see those 27 steals?) and stymied Melo by making it really difficult for him to get the ball. This second game Woodson got the ball to Melo early and let Melo do the offense -- in 1v1 situations Melo will burn Shane almost every time -- which he did.

[Starter]

Gotta give credit to Woodson, in the first game Battier, James and the Heat did a terrific job with ball denial (see those 27 steals?) and stymied Melo by making it really difficult for him to get the ball. This second game Woodson got the ball to Melo early and let Melo do the offense -- in 1v1 situations Melo will burn Shane almost every time -- which he did.

On the money. Like that NY Times article put it, Shane relies on scouting his opponents to force them into lower-percentage shots where they're less likely to succeed. If a player like Anthony gets the ball in a certain situation, he'll score on anyone.

[CDu]

Both the Celtics and the Sixers I would give a 50% chance of winning, the Nuggets just 20%. Boston came out without effort in the first game, expect them to play really tough against the Hawks tonight. I still think the Bulls pull out the win...but the Sixers are playing playing well and you never know. The Nuggets should lose, they don't have the size to play against LA. Unless they can figure out a way to speed LA up they have no hope.

The Celtics are playing without Rondo tonight. As such, I'd be shocked if they win. That's just not a very good team without Rondo. If they also don't have Ray Allen at full strength (or at all), I just don't see them beating the Hawks.

I also disagree with the 50/50 for the Sixers. Chicago won about 2/3 of their games without Rose this year, while the Sixers are basically a .500 team. I'd give the edge to the home team with the better record. I'd say a ~40% chance of winning for the Sixers. But that's substantially higher than the odds I would give either the Celtics or the Nuggets.

[muzikfrk75]

I'll predict

Atlanta
Denver
Chicago

tonight.

[Billy Dat]

Anyone catch Bosh's videobomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0mZmLGT34nQ) of LeBron?

Classic!

[dukelifer]

I'll predict

Atlanta
Denver
Chicago

tonight.

I assume to all lose, that is.

[CDu]

Crazy night in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The Celtics, without their starting backcourt, upset the Hawks in Atlanta behind a great performance by Paul Pierce and an abysmal showing by Jeff Teague and Josh Smith for Atlanta. Meanwhile, the Bulls inexplicably stopped playing defense and lost badly to the Sixers at home.

The first game was surprising in that I didn't expect Boston to be able to generate enough offense to win. But Pierce turned back the clock a few years and Atlanta's offense kept Boston in the game.

The second game was the real shocker. Not so much because the Bulls lost, but the way that they lost. If you'd asked me before the game who would win, I'd have said the Bulls. I'd have said that because I felt they'd win 85-80 or something like that, with the defense stifling the Sixers. The Bulls were the best rebounding team and best defensive team in the NBA, and losing Rose shouldn't have affected either of those things. If anything, his absence should have affected the offense. But the Bulls managed 92 points (and gave away a few more at the line), which is normally more than sufficient for them to win. Instead, they allowed 109 points on 59% shooting from the field, and were outrebounded by the Sixers 38-32. Some of that was Philly hitting some ridiculous shots, but the rebounding thing is somewhat inexcusable.

I still think the Bulls will win this series. But they'll have to get back to defense and rebounding. I look for them to make a statement in Game 3 in Philly Friday night.

[superdave]

Crazy night in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The Celtics, without their starting backcourt, upset the Hawks in Atlanta behind a great performance by Paul Pierce and an abysmal showing by Jeff Teague and Josh Smith for Atlanta. Meanwhile, the Bulls inexplicably stopped playing defense and lost badly to the Sixers at home.

The first game was surprising in that I didn't expect Boston to be able to generate enough offense to win. But Pierce turned back the clock a few years and Atlanta's offense kept Boston in the game.

The second game was the real shocker. Not so much because the Bulls lost, but the way that they lost. If you'd asked me before the game who would win, I'd have said the Bulls. I'd have said that because I felt they'd win 85-80 or something like that, with the defense stifling the Sixers. The Bulls were the best rebounding team and best defensive team in the NBA, and losing Rose shouldn't have affected either of those things. If anything, his absence should have affected the offense. But the Bulls managed 92 points (and gave away a few more at the line), which is normally more than sufficient for them to win. Instead, they allowed 109 points on 59% shooting from the field, and were outrebounded by the Sixers 38-32. Some of that was Philly hitting some ridiculous shots, but the rebounding thing is somewhat inexcusable.

I still think the Bulls will win this series. But they'll have to get back to defense and rebounding. I look for them to make a statement in Game 3 in Philly Friday night.

The Bulls were actually up 8 at the half, then lost the 3rd quarter 36-14. Boozer and Deng combined for 17 points and 10 points in 62 minutes. Those are weak numbers.

Jrue Holiday had 26 points while being guarded by point guards not named Derrick Rose.

[CDu]

The Bulls were actually up 8 at the half, then lost the 3rd quarter 36-14. Boozer and Deng combined for 17 points and 10 points in 62 minutes. Those are weak numbers.

Jrue Holiday had 26 points while being guarded by point guards not named Derrick Rose.

But the PG not named Derrick Rose (CJ Watson) is actually the better defender of the two. That was my point: the two places that the Bulls should not have been affected much by the loss of Rose were in rebounding and defense. And those were the two places that they were most affected.

Getting 17 Boozer and Deng isn't great, but they got 15 from Lucas, 21 from Noah, and solid contributions from everyone else. Offensively, they would have been right at their season average if they'd hit their free throws at their normal rate. So that's not why they lost. It was in defense and rebounding that they lost the game, and that was surprising. Again, some of that was due to the Sixers hitting a TON of jumpshots. But 59% can't all be explained by jumpshots. They've got to get back to form defensively if they're going to win this series.

[phaedrus]

The Bulls were actually up 8 at the half, then lost the 3rd quarter 36-14. Boozer and Deng combined for 17 points and 10 points in 62 minutes. Those are weak numbers.



How about that play where Deng drove the lane, dished to Boozer for the lay-up, then Boozer got swatted by Brand? Could have been one of those fantasy Duke vs. Duke games.

[luvdahops]

But the PG not named Derrick Rose (CJ Watson) is actually the better defender of the two. That was my point: the two places that the Bulls should not have been affected much by the loss of Rose were in rebounding and defense. And those were the two places that they were most affected.

Getting 17 Boozer and Deng isn't great, but they got 15 from Lucas, 21 from Noah, and solid contributions from everyone else. Offensively, they would have been right at their season average if they'd hit their free throws at their normal rate. So that's not why they lost. It was in defense and rebounding that they lost the game, and that was surprising. Again, some of that was due to the Sixers hitting a TON of jumpshots. But 59% can't all be explained by jumpshots. They've got to get back to form defensively if they're going to win this series.

I was at the game. The Bulls offense was in complete disarray for most of the second half, with many possessions ending with a contested jumper with seconds left on the shot clock and no one in decent position for offensive boards. IMHO, this contributed a lot to both the rebounding deficit and the run-out baskets by the 76ers. The Bulls have to control tempo and keep games at a half-court pace to win the series, especially with Rose out. They failed miserably last night - the over/under for the game was 177 points, the actual tally was 201.

I agree that the Sixers hit a lot of jumpers, but a number of those, especially by Holiday and Williams, were basically uncontested. Watson and Lucas were both awful on defense last night, and Hamilton had a rough night against Evan Turner as well, though he at least made him work for his points. The other issue with Watson and Lucas is that neither is really a natural PG (i.e. a creating/facilitating type). Both are scorers first and foremost. Someone a bit more adept at driving and dishing might have helped a lot last night.

[luvdahops]

How about that play where Deng drove the lane, dished to Boozer for the lay-up, then Boozer got swatted by Brand? Could have been one of those fantasy Duke vs. Duke games.

The softness with which Boozer often plays these days (fadeaway jumpers, weak finishes at the rim) is very frustrating to Bulls fans, particularly against a small team like the Sixers.

[CDu]

I was at the game. The Bulls offense was in complete disarray for most of the second half, with many possessions ending with a contested jumper with seconds left on the shot clock and no one in decent position for offensive boards. IMHO, this contributed a lot to both the rebounding deficit and the run-out baskets by the 76ers. The Bulls have to control tempo and keep games at a half-court pace to win the series, especially with Rose out. They failed miserably last night - the over/under for the game was 177 points, the actual tally was 201.

I agree that the Sixers hit a lot of jumpers, but a number of those, especially by Holiday and Williams, were basically uncontested. Watson and Lucas were both awful on defense last night, and Hamilton had a rough night against Evan Turner as well, though he at least made him work for his points. The other issue with Watson and Lucas is that neither is really a natural PG (i.e. a creating/facilitating type). Both are scorers first and foremost. Someone a bit more adept at driving and dishing might have helped a lot last night.

The 25 fast break points were a big part of it. The Sixers did a good job of chasing Korver, Deng, and Hamilton, and the ability of those guys to work off the ball has been the key to the Bull's success without Rose. Watson and Lucas are typically better at facilitating with the pass than they were last night. I agree that they aren't pure PG in that they don't create for others off the dribble. But Rose doesn't really do that either - he is a score-first PG whose first and second instincts are to shoot off the dribble. But even still, the Bulls shot 45% from the field, which is their season average. They were above their season average from 3pt range. And they actually had fewer turnovers than usual. So that doesn't explain the loss. It's not like they were missing so many more shots or coughing the ball up so much that they were creating more easy scoring chances for Philly.

It was just a poor defensive effort and a good shooting night by the Sixers. I was very disappointed in the defensive effort by Watson on Holliday. That's the thing he does best on the court. Against Miami, he regularly flusters Chalmers completely out of his game. Last night, though, he just couldn't do anything to stop Holliday. I expect less than stellar defense from Lucas, so that's not a shock. But Watson is a very good defender. I thought Hamilton did a good job on Turner. It was Turner who was most guilty of hitting heavily contested shots. I remember 2 or 3 mid-range shots in particular that Hamilton was all over Turner and Turner still made it. Can't fault Hamilton there. When Brand, Allen, Turner, and Hawes combine for 10 made jumpers from 15-20 feet (and shoot over 60% from the field) and when you allow 25 fast break points, that's a recipe for a loss. Add in that Williams and Holliday shot an out-of-this-world 19-28 (I don't care how open you are, if you're hitting 60+% on long jumpshots, you're having a ridiculous night) and it was trouble.

[theAlaskanBear]

Crazy night in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The Celtics, without their starting backcourt, upset the Hawks in Atlanta behind a great performance by Paul Pierce and an abysmal showing by Jeff Teague and Josh Smith for Atlanta. Meanwhile, the Bulls inexplicably stopped playing defense and lost badly to the Sixers at home.

The first game was surprising in that I didn't expect Boston to be able to generate enough offense to win. But Pierce turned back the clock a few years and Atlanta's offense kept Boston in the game.

The second game was the real shocker. Not so much because the Bulls lost, but the way that they lost. If you'd asked me before the game who would win, I'd have said the Bulls. I'd have said that because I felt they'd win 85-80 or something like that, with the defense stifling the Sixers. The Bulls were the best rebounding team and best defensive team in the NBA, and losing Rose shouldn't have affected either of those things. If anything, his absence should have affected the offense. But the Bulls managed 92 points (and gave away a few more at the line), which is normally more than sufficient for them to win. Instead, they allowed 109 points on 59% shooting from the field, and were outrebounded by the Sixers 38-32. Some of that was Philly hitting some ridiculous shots, but the rebounding thing is somewhat inexcusable.

I still think the Bulls will win this series. But they'll have to get back to defense and rebounding. I look for them to make a statement in Game 3 in Philly Friday night.

It was a fun night of basketball, for sure! When the Bulls started to get behind in the 3rd quarter I knew it was over...you could tell by their body language and energy. There had to be a lot of emotional fatigue in last nights game. You play your heart out without Rose, grab homecourt, then Rose is going to come back and carry you to victory....and he blows out his ACL -- its very deflating in a season with lots of ups and downs.

Rebounding wasn't really such a problem, or rather it was a subset of the larger problem -- the fastbreak points and high shooting percentage. Philadelphia had only 32 misses compared to 46 for the Bulls.

[theAlaskanBear]

The softness with which Boozer often plays these days (fadeaway jumpers, weak finishes at the rim) is very frustrating to Bulls fans, particularly against a small team like the Sixers.

I have said it many times to my family in Illinois who never watched Boozer before he came to Chicago. He is one of the best pick and roll/pop PFs in the league, but he is no longer physically gifted enough to create his own offense and has struggled to fit in the offense in Chicago. Rose is a great player, he isn't yet the passer or pick and roll player Deron Williams was.

Now almost 31 and in a career full of lower body injuries, he shouldn't be expected to be the offensive dynamo he once was. He is simply past his prime. I still think he can contribute, but you have to get him to take more shots (just 8 and 10 attempts the last 2 games). Make it a goal to run 10-12 pick and rolls a game with him, get him around 17 shots a game.

Heck, you could even run pick and rolls to get Noah on the high post cause he is such a good passer and let Boozer play elbows/baseline, which would then let Noah crash the offensive boards. But I think CDu (?) said it -- the backup PGs for Chicago, especially when Lucas is in the game aren't really distributers...

I think with Rose down the Bulls need to play more through Deng, Boozer, Noah and less through Watson/Lucas.

[luvdahops]

The 25 fast break points were a big part of it. The Sixers did a good job of chasing Korver, Deng, and Hamilton, and the ability of those guys to work off the ball has been the key to the Bull's success without Rose. Watson and Lucas are typically better at facilitating with the pass than they were last night. I agree that they aren't pure PG in that they don't create for others off the dribble. But Rose doesn't really do that either - he is a score-first PG whose first and second instincts are to shoot off the dribble. But even still, the Bulls shot 45% from the field, which is their season average. They were above their season average from 3pt range. And they actually had fewer turnovers than usual. So that doesn't explain the loss. It's not like they were missing so many more shots or coughing the ball up so much that they were creating more easy scoring chances for Philly.

It was just a poor defensive effort and a good shooting night by the Sixers. I was very disappointed in the defensive effort by Watson on Holliday. That's the thing he does best on the court. Against Miami, he regularly flusters Chalmers completely out of his game. Last night, though, he just couldn't do anything to stop Holliday. I expect less than stellar defense from Lucas, so that's not a shock. But Watson is a very good defender. I thought Hamilton did a good job on Turner. It was Turner who was most guilty of hitting heavily contested shots. I remember 2 or 3 mid-range shots in particular that Hamilton was all over Turner and Turner still made it. Can't fault Hamilton there. When Brand, Allen, Turner, and Hawes combine for 10 made jumpers from 15-20 feet (and shoot over 60% from the field) and when you allow 25 fast break points, that's a recipe for a loss. Add in that Williams and Holliday shot an out-of-this-world 19-28 (I don't care how open you are, if you're hitting 60+% on long jumpshots, you're having a ridiculous night) and it was trouble.

You are quoting stats for the full game, I was referencing the second half, especially the last 8 minutes or so of the 3rd quarter and first 2-3 minutes of the fourth. This was the crucial period in the game, with the Sixers going from down 3 to up 20 in not even a full quarter, outscoring the Bulls on the order of 33-10. I was sitting 8 rows behind the Sixers bench (and basket where the Bulls shot in the second half), so unfortunately had a birds eye view. The Bulls offense during this stretch was simply horrendous, as they probably went at least 10 possessions without getting a shot in the paint or to the FT line. I would also guess that most of their TOs happened in this stretch, along with a majority of the Sixers' fast break points (and for sure the alley oops and Iggy's other slams). The defense was sub-par throughout, but I am convinced that the offensive ineptitude during this stretch is what really tipped the game, as it totally energized the Sixers while demoralizing the Bulls and taking the crowd out of the game.

Totally agree on Hamilton and Turner. I think Rose has learned to combine facilitating and scoring. While he does still look to score first much of the time, he is very good now at driving and dishing, and in looking for other options on the break. Rose has averaged ~8 apg the past two seasons, which is not in Nash/Rondo/CP3 territority, but is considerably better than the likes of Westbrook, Brandon Jennings or Kyrie for that matter. Neither Watson or Lucas are close to D-Rose in terms of assists per minute played, and neither has the ability to constantly require help from other defenders that makes Rose so effective in running the show. The drop-off is severe, and the Bulls really need to figure out a different plan of attack offensively for the balance of the series.

[Billy Dat]

While I am no Celtics fan, I can't help but admire the savvy and onions of Paul Pierce. If my life were on the line and I had to hand the ball to one NBA player to either score or get fouled, he would be right at the top of the list. Last night was kind of a must win for the Cs and he responded with a 36/14 including 11-13 from the line. As a Knicks fan, I have watched that guy break my heart too many times to not respect his game. He's nearing the end of the road, and was really one of the great bridge players from the Jordan era to the Lebron era. KG and Ray Allen are part of that same generation. With Rose out for Chicago, I think the Celtics will have their chance to come out of the East. I would have given them little to no chance if they lost last night.

[superdave]

one of the great bridge players from the Jordan era to the Lebron era

You mean the Kobe era! Kobe 5 titles, Lebron 0 titles.

[hq2]

While I am no Celtics fan, I can't help but admire the savvy and onions of Paul Pierce. If my life were on the line and I had to hand the ball to one NBA player to either score or get fouled, he would be right at the top of the list. Last night was kind of a must win for the Cs and he responded with a 36/14 including 11-13 from the line. As a Knicks fan, I have watched that guy break my heart too many times to not respect his game. He's nearing the end of the road, and was really one of the great bridge players from the Jordan era to the Lebron era. KG and Ray Allen are part of that same generation. With Rose out for Chicago, I think the Celtics will have their chance to come out of the East. I would have given them little to no chance if they lost last night.

Definitely a Hall-of-Fame effort. Watching Pierce a long time, I've been slow to warm to him for a number of reasons, but over the past few years, I've come to appreciate how complete a player he has been.
The Cs do have a chance in the East; losing last night might have doomed them, but with Ray back, they can play with anyone. Still not sure if they can get by the Bulls, even without Rose; Chicago
and Boston are almost mirror image teams, except Chicago is younger, and in a seven game series, young legs cannot be discounted. Still, if they beat the Bulls, they give the Heat serious matchup problems;
Avery Bradley is a real problem for Wade, KG hates Bosh and enjoys shutting him down, and no one on Miami can guard Rondo. That leaves only LeBron to carry them, and in the last two previous meetings,
it wasn't enough. If the Cs beat the Bulls, they can handle Miami too.

[superdave]

Definitely a Hall-of-Fame effort. Watching Pierce a long time, I've been slow to warm to him for a number of reasons, but over the past few years, I've come to appreciate how complete a player he has been.
The Cs do have a chance in the East; losing last night might have doomed them, but with Ray back, they can play with anyone. Still not sure if they can get by the Bulls, even without Rose; Chicago
and Boston are almost mirror image teams, except Chicago is younger, and in a seven game series, young legs cannot be discounted. Still, if they beat the Bulls, they give the Heat serious matchup problems;
Avery Bradley is a real problem for Wade, KG hates Bosh and enjoys shutting him down, and no one on Miami can guard Rondo. That leaves only LeBron to carry them, and in the last two previous meetings,
it wasn't enough. If the Cs beat the Bulls, they can handle Miami too.

It would be fun to see the Celtics give the Heat a run for their money. But the C's would have to be hitting on all cylinders. They'd need to keep it a half-court game and force the supporting cast of the Heat to knock down jumpers. It's doable. At this point, the C's are the only team that can beat the Heat in a 7 game series.

I will always love Pierce for his tweet last year - "It was a pleasure taking my talents to South Beach" after they beat the Heat.

[Billy Dat]

The only game I caught last night was the second half of the Griz v Clips. Mayo was on a roll (rim shot!), hitting threes and really harassing Chris Paul. That Memphis rotation of Conley, Mayo, Gay, Gasol, ZBo, Maurice Speights, Tony Allen and Qunicy Pondexter is NASTY.

[theAlaskanBear]

The only game I caught last night was the second half of the Griz v Clips. Mayo was on a roll (rim shot!), hitting threes and really harassing Chris Paul. That Memphis rotation of Conley, Mayo, Gay, Gasol, ZBo, Maurice Speights, Tony Allen and Qunicy Pondexter is NASTY.

I watched parts of both TNT games last night. Yeah, Memphis has a nice rotation..you look at the talent, and its there...maybe a better point guard -- but Conley has really turned into a player. I'm not sure what the contract situation is like -- hopefully they can keep Gasol, Gay, Conley, and Mayo together for awhile...Randolph has three more years on a pretty big contract, so I dont know if they have the cap space to keep everyone.

Man, the Spurs have really abused the Jazz. They were flirting with a 40-point win at times during last nights game.

[muzikfrk75]

Heat @ Knicks then Thunder @ Mavericks tonight.

Chris Bosh flew home, witnessed the birth of his son and is now back in NYC, expected to play tonight. Pretty cool picture here: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/chris-bosh-wife-welcome-baby-boy-bosh-expected-173925198.html

I expect Wade to have a monster game tonight and Lebron being Lebron. I think this game will be a lot closer but Miami should still win.

As for the second game, the Mavericks HAVE to win...but I think that they won't. Durant hasn't shot that well yet in the series, yet they're up 2-0.

Predicting both series are 3-0 after tonight.

[luvdahops]

I have said it many times to my family in Illinois who never watched Boozer before he came to Chicago. He is one of the best pick and roll/pop PFs in the league, but he is no longer physically gifted enough to create his own offense and has struggled to fit in the offense in Chicago. Rose is a great player, he isn't yet the passer or pick and roll player Deron Williams was.

Now almost 31 and in a career full of lower body injuries, he shouldn't be expected to be the offensive dynamo he once was. He is simply past his prime. I still think he can contribute, but you have to get him to take more shots (just 8 and 10 attempts the last 2 games). Make it a goal to run 10-12 pick and rolls a game with him, get him around 17 shots a game.

Heck, you could even run pick and rolls to get Noah on the high post cause he is such a good passer and let Boozer play elbows/baseline, which would then let Noah crash the offensive boards. But I think CDu (?) said it -- the backup PGs for Chicago, especially when Lucas is in the game aren't really distributers...

I think with Rose down the Bulls need to play more through Deng, Boozer, Noah and less through Watson/Lucas.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Injuries have definitely taken their toll, and the Bulls' offense doesn't really play to his strengths.

But I don't think Bulls fan are looking for him to be dunking over people or creating a ton of offense on his own. What they are looking for him is to be more physical in establishing position, drawing contact and finishing inside. His FTAs per game were way down this year - barely 2 per game, the lowest of his career and half his average for his career (4.0) and last season with the Bulls (4.1) - which I think supports the notion that he is playing softer.

[muzikfrk75]

I missed the 2nd half of the Heat-Bulls game but from what I've heard:

1-Wade took over in the 3rd qtr
2-Lebron took over in the 4th qtr
3-Carmelo is starting to really do some damage to his legacy.

[elvis14]

I missed the 2nd half of the Heat-Bulls game but from what I've heard:

1-Wade took over in the 3rd qtr
2-Lebron took over in the 4th qtr
3-Carmelo is starting to really do some damage to his legacy.

So just for the sake of conversation, what would you say Carmelo's legacy is now?

[CDu]

So just for the sake of conversation, what would you say Carmelo's legacy is now?

He won a championship at Syracuse... that's about it.

[Billy Dat]

He won a championship at Syracuse... that's about it.

I think when you consider an NBA legacy, you have to factor in a couple of key metrics:
-Championships
-MVPs
-All NBA teams made
-Team playoff success
-Cumulative stats
-I am not as big on All Star game appearances because the starters are determined by fan voting and the reserves are only based on half a year's play.

Obviously, he has no NBA Championships and no MVPs. But, he has made 4 All NBA Teams (one 2nd team and 3 3rd teams). That's pretty good. His team's have also made the playoffs every year he has been in the NBA. If you want to throw his Team USA success onto his resume, you can.

He is 27 years old and should have another 5-6 really good years of ball in him. He is in his prime right now. He's likely to finish his career with more than 25,000 points which, by itself, would make him a Hall of Fame candidate. His legacy is out there to be made.

I don't think this Heat series is hurting his legacy much - because the Knicks lack other options, the Heat are focusing most of their defensive effort on him and he's still managing to score 20+ per game. I think the segment of the seasons when he dogged it for Mike D'Antoni because he was upset about his role on the team was much worse for his legacy, added to the drama surrounding his trade demand during his last season in Denver.

[CDu]

I think when you consider an NBA legacy, you have to factor in a couple of key metrics:
-Championships
-MVPs
-All NBA teams made
-Team playoff success
-Cumulative stats
-I am not as big on All Star game appearances because the starters are determined by fan voting and the reserves are only based on half a year's play.

Obviously, he has no NBA Championships and no MVPs. But, he has made 4 All NBA Teams (one 2nd team and 3 3rd teams). That's pretty good. His team's have also made the playoffs every year he has been in the NBA. If you want to throw his Team USA success onto his resume, you can.

He is 27 years old and should have another 5-6 really good years of ball in him. He is in his prime right now. He's likely to finish his career with more than 25,000 points which, by itself, would make him a Hall of Fame candidate. His legacy is out there to be made.

I don't think this Heat series is hurting his legacy much - because the Knicks lack other options, the Heat are focusing most of their defensive effort on him and he's still managing to score 20+ per game. I think the segment of the seasons when he dogged it for Mike D'Antoni because he was upset about his role on the team was much worse for his legacy, added to the drama surrounding his trade demand during his last season in Denver.

I think his legacy is similar to that of Alex English. Great scorer at SF, but a guy who didn't do a whole lot beyond scoring (just an okay rebounder, not a great passer, and wasn't known for defense). It's interesting, though, because I'd say the same about Paul Pierce. But Pierce probably has the leg up on both English and Anthony (despite lesser regular season numbers) because he came up big in the playoffs on a few occasions, including one championship.

[luvdahops]

I think his legacy is similar to that of Alex English. Great scorer at SF, but a guy who didn't do a whole lot beyond scoring (just an okay rebounder, not a great passer, and wasn't known for defense). It's interesting, though, because I'd say the same about Paul Pierce. But Pierce probably has the leg up on both English and Anthony (despite lesser regular season numbers) because he came up big in the playoffs on a few occasions, including one championship.

Agree with all of this. The career stats of these 3 are remarkably similar. Pierce's postseason success is a stark differentiator though.

I have watched Melo enough to see that he CAN be very effective on the boards and a capable defender and passer. In fact, when Amare was out recently and Anthony played a lot of PF, he was often putting up better numbers across the board. But that has been the exception rather than the rule, throughout his career.

[elvis14]

I think his legacy is similar to that of Alex English. Great scorer at SF, but a guy who didn't do a whole lot beyond scoring (just an okay rebounder, not a great passer, and wasn't known for defense). It's interesting, though, because I'd say the same about Paul Pierce. But Pierce probably has the leg up on both English and Anthony (despite lesser regular season numbers) because he came up big in the playoffs on a few occasions, including one championship.

ESPN Radio was ripping into Melo this morning. A few interesting points:


He's only made it past the first round of the playoffs one time (LaBron has never lost in the first round)
Of players that have played at least 50 playoff games, Melo has the lowest career winning percentage...ever (hope I remembered that correctly)
Denver got better when he left
The Knicks went on a LinTastic win streak when Melo was out
Melo and Amare really can't seem to figure out how to succeed together


It's kind of why I asked because to me his "legacy" as it stands right now is not good. Basically he's perceived as a me first gunner who can't win when it counts. I know that's harsh but it's the perception. Note, I'm not a Knicks or Melo hater. They have been bad so long, it's hard to hate them. Yes, they need a few Duke players to help turn them around :-) but overall I'd be OK if they got to be good for a few years. Besides, Linsanity was fun!

[Billy Dat]

Agree with all of this. The career stats of these 3 are remarkably similar. Pierce's postseason success is a stark differentiator though.

I have watched Melo enough to see that he CAN be very effective on the boards and a capable defender and passer. In fact, when Amare was out recently and Anthony played a lot of PF, he was often putting up better numbers across the board. But that has been the exception rather than the rule, throughout his career.

Pierce is an interesting comparison. Having that title and finals MVP, plus another NBA Finals appearance, sets him apart as you say. But, I feel like Pierce also has some intangible toughness and grit that Melo lacks. The same way K said that the position Kyle Singler played was "winner", I feel the same way about Pierce. He is also a textbook case of how a kid can be a little wild but, given the chance, can mature into a spectacular no-drama veteran. If Melo can retire with a Paul Pierce-esque career, I think he'd take it.

[Ichabod Drain]

ESPN Radio was ripping into Melo this morning. A few interesting points:


He's only made it past the first round of the playoffs one time (LaBron has never lost in the first round)
Of players that have played at least 50 playoff games, Melo has the lowest career winning percentage...ever (hope I remembered that correctly)
Denver got better when he left
The Knicks went on a LinTastic win streak when Melo was out
Melo and Amare really can't seem to figure out how to succeed together


It's kind of why I asked because to me his "legacy" as it stands right now is not good. Basically he's perceived as a me first gunner who can't win when it counts. I know that's harsh but it's the perception. Note, I'm not a Knicks or Melo hater. They have been bad so long, it's hard to hate them. Yes, they need a few Duke players to help turn them around :-) but overall I'd be OK if they got to be good for a few years. Besides, Linsanity was fun!

I wouldnt exactly say that Denver got better, I think they just stayed about the same without him which people found surprising, they definitely havent performed better in the post season without him. Also, the Knick have made the playoffs the past two years, something they hadn't done for like six years. Now you could argue that it was because of other factors but I just thought I'd point that out.

[COYS]

Agree with all of this. The career stats of these 3 are remarkably similar. Pierce's postseason success is a stark differentiator though.

I have watched Melo enough to see that he CAN be very effective on the boards and a capable defender and passer. In fact, when Amare was out recently and Anthony played a lot of PF, he was often putting up better numbers across the board. But that has been the exception rather than the rule, throughout his career.

Pierce's post-season success came later in his career than where Melo currently is in terms of age. Before that, Pierce languished on a pretty terrible Boston team. During the championship season, his stats were actually down across the board as he shared the reigns with KG, Ray Allen, and (to a lesser extent, then) Rondo. That championship is impressive, however, he only has one. Also, Melo has almost always had better rebounding numbers than Pierce, posting double digit rebound percentages every year of his career since '08 with the exception'10 when he was at 9.9. During that time, he had rebounding percentages over 11% three times. Pierce has cracked double digit rebounding percentages only three times in the past 10 seasons.

This is not to say that Melo is better than Pierce, but aside from post-season success, I'd say that Melo has been maybe just a bit better. Pierce is a better passer and has become a better defender (Melo's biggest issue, for sure), but if Melo can ever play on a team that is built correctly, we might see him reach the same heights as Pierce. I'm not sure you can blame Melo for struggling to mesh with Amar'e as much as you can blame the Knicks brass for acquiring too many ill-fitted pieces.

[Des Esseintes]

Pierce's post-season success came later in his career than where Melo currently is in terms of age. Before that, Pierce languished on a pretty terrible Boston team. During the championship season, his stats were actually down across the board as he shared the reigns with KG, Ray Allen, and (to a lesser extent, then) Rondo. That championship is impressive, however, he only has one. Also, Melo has almost always had better rebounding numbers than Pierce, posting double digit rebound percentages every year of his career since '08 with the exception'10 when he was at 9.9. During that time, he had rebounding percentages over 11% three times. Pierce has cracked double digit rebounding percentages only three times in the past 10 seasons.

This is not to say that Melo is better than Pierce, but aside from post-season success, I'd say that Melo has been maybe just a bit better. Pierce is a better passer and has become a better defender (Melo's biggest issue, for sure), but if Melo can ever play on a team that is built correctly, we might see him reach the same heights as Pierce. I'm not sure you can blame Melo for struggling to mesh with Amar'e as much as you can blame the Knicks brass for acquiring too many ill-fitted pieces.

Pierce is better. Anthony is a modestly better rebounder, but Pierce is the more efficient scorer, better passer, and, even early in his career, superior defender. Anthony's best season by PER was 22.2, and his best by Win Shares was 9.4. Pierce has had 4 seasons that bettered that PER mark and 8(!) that bettered the Win Shares total. We can leave aside postseason and team success, and Pierce still comes out ahead. Over his nine-year career, Anthony has amassed 62.4 Win Shares. In Pierce's first nine seasons: 79.5.

Another thing I would say about the Pierce comparison is that Anthony--and any young star, really--will be hard pressed to extend his prime as long as Pierce has. He turns 35 later this year, and if he is slowing down, it is only by a little. You could make the argument that his 2010-11 campaign was the best season of his career. It hasn't just been that Pierce got a better team around him and came up big in the playoffs. He has proven durable and highly productive into his mid-30s, which is no mean feat.

[hq2]

Another thing I would say about the Pierce comparison is that Anthony--and any young star, really--will be hard pressed to extend his prime as long as Pierce has. He turns 35 later this year, and if he is slowing down, it is only by a little. You could make the argument that his 2010-11 campaign was the best season of his career. It hasn't just been that Pierce got a better team around him and came up big in the playoffs. He has proven durable and highly productive into his mid-30s, which is no mean feat.

Pierce has clearly matured as he has gotten older, but I don't think Anthony has, and he's already pushing 30. The Pierce of 10 years ago was a great scorer who was not a great defender or team leader. His maturation has occurred around the last five years or so, when he realized he needed to change in order to win. He does not have the explosiveness he had 10 years ago, but he's a better shooter, and a wily veteran who knows all the tricks (angles, step back shot, drawing fouls), so he's still a good scorer. However, unlike earlier, he has learned when to let the other players get more involved and when to step up, which I don't think Anthony has. Anthony will have to do so soon if he wants to be remembered as an elite player.

[NSDukeFan]

Pierce has clearly matured as he has gotten older, but I don't think Anthony has, and he's already pushing 30. The Pierce of 10 years ago was a great scorer who was not a great defender or team leader. His maturation has occurred around the last five years or so, when he realized he needed to change in order to win. He does not have the explosiveness he had 10 years ago, but he's a better shooter, and a wily veteran who knows all the tricks (angles, step back shot, drawing fouls), so he's still a good scorer. However, unlike earlier, he has learned when to let the other players get more involved and when to step up, which I don't think Anthony has. Anthony will have to do so soon if he wants to be remembered as an elite player.

I agree that Pierce has matured as he has gotten older and that he may not be the rebounder that Carmelo is, but Pierce didn't have a lot of choice about allowing teammates to help out in the past. He played on some very poor teams for a few years where he had to do everything, and he did. I agree with others who have also mentioned that he has always been a better playmaker than Carmelo.

I was also thinking of the Alex English comparison for Carmelo and was also thinking of the other great scorers of that era that were not able to lead their teams far in the playoffs, including Adrian Dantley, Dominique Wilkins and Mark Aguirre. I think I would put Carmelo ahead of all of them except Dominique at this point and think he deserves credit for his very solid play for the national team.

[Starter]

Sort of on topic, Battier had zero points, zero rebounds and zero assists in Game 3 against the Knicks. But his teammates gave him the game ball for his defense on Anthony.

[muzikfrk75]

LOL...Redick and Hansbrough just got into a 'skirmish'. Both parties should have received technicals but they only gave one to Redick.

[tbyers11]

LOL...Redick and Hansbrough just got into a 'skirmish'. Both parties should have received technicals but they only gave one to Redick.

Yeah, Hansbrough threw the first shoulder and JJ retaliated with a shove. Both should have been T'd up. How Tyler didn't is beyond me. NBA must have got ACC refs for this one

[Greg_Newton]

Yeah, Hansbrough threw the first shoulder and JJ retaliated with a shove. Both should have been T'd up. How Tyler didn't is beyond me. NBA must have got ACC refs for this one

Not to mention Hansbrough had gotten away with throwing an elbow and shuffling his feet into drawing a "charge" on the previous play. Then he not only bodychecks Redick after the play, he grabs his arms while drawing to grab the ball afterwards. What a punk.

Time for Big Baby to "accidentally" set him straight.

[Greg_Newton]

Heckuva response by JJ, though. 3-4 assists and a floater since then, spearheading a 10-0 run.

ETA: Oh well, that's probably game there. Paul George with some big time shots.

[muzikfrk75]

Redick with a game tying 3. ;)

[Greg_Newton]

JJ!!! With the game tying three, 38 seconds left.

What a quarter for him.

[muzikfrk75]

Horrible shot by Jameer at the end.

OT it is.

[Greg_Newton]

Orlando's had nothing in OT so far. JJ's missed two open jumpers he usually makes; his shot's been off all day.

Cool to see him essentially playing halfcourt PG in most of their sets down the stretch, though. He's been very effective in the pick and roll with Davis.

[muzikfrk75]

I'm still not a fan of Davis.

I remember.

[Greg_Newton]

Jameer Nelson is in with some bad bookies, apparently. Inexplicably stupid play there.

[theAlaskanBear]

I don't know who has been watching the Bulls the last couple of games, but the officiating has been awful. Deng gets hammered driving to hoop and falls on his injury wrist, no call. Boozer gets a phantom call on a late whistle the play before. Boozer must have a bad reputation with the refs because he gets more late whistles on him than anyone I have seen. last game I noticed a bad blocking charge call and a bogus defensive foul in the second half.

[theAlaskanBear]

I don't know who has been watching the Bulls the last couple of games, but the officiating has been awful. Deng gets hammered driving to hoop and falls on his injury wrist, no call. Boozer gets a phantom call on a late whistle the play before. Boozer must have a bad reputation with the refs because he gets more late whistles on him than anyone I have seen. last game I noticed a bad blocking charge call and a bogus defensive foul in the second half.

wow, with a minute left boozer gets hammered by two sixers going to the hoop, no call. next play holiday draws the foul with no contact on a fade away. Philly up 4 with 50 seconds left.

[theAlaskanBear]

wow, with a minute left boozer gets hammered by two sixers going to the hoop, no call. next play holiday draws the foul with no contact on a fade away. Philly up 4 with 50 seconds left.

boozer turnover. ouch. game is slipping away.

[theAlaskanBear]

Baron Davis went down with a horrible knee injury. You could tell its bad -- players didnt want to look at his knee. Needed a stretcher. New York and Miami are locking in a 2pt game in the 4th Q.

[subzero02]

Davis dislocated his patella... It looked horrible in slow motion

[CDu]

Well, the last two games have been more like it defensively for the Bulls (79 and 89 points allowed). But the offense has disappeared. Without Rose and Noah it's looking more likely that they won't make it past round 1. What a disappointment. I was really looking forward to a probable Heat/Bulls Conference Final. Now, I just have to hope that Rose can make it back to full strength by next year's playoffs. The Bulls will probably not have homecourt advantage in the first round if they make the playoffs next year.

[luvdahops]

Well, the last two games have been more like it defensively for the Bulls (79 and 89 points allowed). But the offense has disappeared. Without Rose and Noah it's looking more likely that they won't make it past round 1. What a disappointment. I was really looking forward to a probable Heat/Bulls Conference Final. Now, I just have to hope that Rose can make it back to full strength by next year's playoffs. The Bulls will probably not have homecourt advantage in the first round if they make the playoffs next year.

Agreed. They miss Noah as a facilitator on offense, and they can't count on much from Deng against Igoudala, who is an excellent defender. Luol just doesn't have the first step or quick release to keep Iggy off balance, especially with his left hand all but useless with the wrist injury. Watson has been in a funk too - he is no D-Rose, but is a much better player than he has shown in this series. Just about everything that could go wrong for the Bulls has in this series.

[Starter]

Well, the Knicks have won their first playoff game since I was at Duke.

I don't know about you guys, but this development has changed my life forever.

[subzero02]

How long will it be before they win their second???

[Starter]

It could be a while. They're starting Mike Bibby at point guard in Miami, and they're well over the cap for next year and can expect to lose a few core players from this year's team. (Smith and Novak, for example, can expect sizable raises, while Lin -- who I'd assume will be back -- and Fields are restricted free agents.) Plus, Amar'e gets a year older, and Chandler and Anthony are no spring chickens. And they still have the most loathsome owner in professional sports and a voiceless, puppet front office.

Other than that though, they're in great shape.

[Dev11]

And they still have the most loathsome owner in professional sports

Donald Sterling and Peter Angelos would like to do everything in their power to prove you wrong.

[Starter]

Donald Sterling and Peter Angelos would like to do everything in their power to prove you wrong.

It's pretty close, yeah. Sterling might have it by a nose since I've seen no indication that Dolan is racist. It depends on how much you can tolerate Dolan's musical stylings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YfvfpkiXH8), perhaps.

[theAlaskanBear]

In a night where the Bulls offense was purely offensive, they still took down the 76ers. Solid defense was backed by a strong outing by Carlos Boozer, who had 19 points and 13 rebounds on 9-20 shooting. Luol Deng had a fantastic night as well, 24 points and 8 rebounds, he also had 2 blocks and 2 steals

Would have loved to watch the game, but it was televised on NBAtv. Blech.

[elvis14]

Anyone else get to see the Pacers-Magic game? There was some classic stuff in the game for Duke fans. Three times HansBlahBlah ended up guarding JJ one on one off of a switch. The result, 2 layups and one trip to the foul line. Then to make things even better, there had to be 5 times in the game where HansTravel caused contact and didn't get a call. He had this confused, open mouth, lost look on his face like he couldn't understand where the Carolina refs all went. It was hilarious. Pacers won the game as Collison went off in the 4th quarter (and some of the Magic were out of gas).

It's going to be interesting to see what happens with SVG, Howard and the Magic roster in the coming months.

[CDu]

In a night where the Bulls offense was purely offensive, they still took down the 76ers. Solid defense was backed by a strong outing by Carlos Boozer, who had 19 points and 13 rebounds on 9-20 shooting. Luol Deng had a fantastic night as well, 24 points and 8 rebounds, he also had 2 blocks and 2 steals

Would have loved to watch the game, but it was televised on NBAtv. Blech.

Boozer looked terrific in the 3rd quarter. He didn't do much in the 4th. Deng was just great. The highlight of the night (as a Bulls fan, not as a Duke fan) was Brewer just swallowing a shot attempt by Brand. Brand got an offensive rebound inside and went up for a layup. Brewer came from behind with a sweeping block attempt and blocked it so emphatically that he just caught the ball with his blocking hand and starting the transition opportunity the other way. Unbelievable. It was nice to see Watson be productive in spite of not shooting well (7 assists).

The lack of offense isn't all that shocking considering the Bulls played without their best offensive player (Rose) and one of their best passers and offensive rebounders (Noah). But it was nice to see the defense carry the day. There was one scary moment when Gibson rolled his ankle on Allen's foot and had to hobble to the locker room. He came back later and provided some energy down the stretch, but his ankle is a concern. It will be interesting to see how much he and Noah heel up before Thursday's game in Philly. If they can go, I think the Bulls still stand a decent chance of making it to round 2. Unfortunately, they'll be facing a tough test against either Boston or Atlanta if they do manage to make the comeback.

[hq2]

t's going to be interesting to see what happens with SVG, Howard and the Magic roster in the coming months.

I'd say the Pacers and Magic would do well to make a trade of some type. The Pacers need shooting, the Magic need bulk, and they have
expendable players in both areas. Wouldn't mind seeing J.J. in Indiana (maybe the Pacers could trade Handsblow somewhere), although the Pacers
aren't that quick either.

[Dukehky]

This Clips Grizz series has been absolutely phenomenal. Memphis is a significantly better squad to me, but CP3 is by far and away the best player on the court all the time. Blake has all the talent in the world but he's one of the most overrated players in the NBA RIGHT NOW. He had a great last game though. I find myself always pulling for the Clip-show because I've grandfathered them in to one of the teams I root for because they typically have so many Duke players. The Grizz miss Battier more than I think a lot of people care to say or realize. Here's to hopefully another great game.

[Billy Dat]

This Clips Grizz series has been absolutely phenomenal. Memphis is a significantly better squad to me, but CP3 is by far and away the best player on the court all the time. Blake has all the talent in the world but he's one of the most overrated players in the NBA RIGHT NOW. He had a great last game though. I find myself always pulling for the Clip-show because I've grandfathered them in to one of the teams I root for because they typically have so many Duke players. The Grizz miss Battier more than I think a lot of people care to say or realize. Here's to hopefully another great game.

I watched the 4th Q last night. Just when it looked like the Griz were going to blow that lead, CP3 came up gimpy with that groin and Mo Williams stopped hitting shots. Watching this game, and the Celtics v Hawks the night before, I could not get over 2 defensive highlights:

-Quincy Pondexter making CP3s life very difficult down the stretch

-Al Horford getting switched onto Rondo on the last play of the game and somehow staying in front of him for 3-4 seconds and forcing a bad pass. That kid is a 7 footer and he was moving his feet like a cat! Now that he is back, the Hawks are a different team. I don't know if they can win 2 in a row, but, man, I forgot how good he is.

[CDu]

The Bulls are back to playing Bulls basketball (dominating the boards, playing suffocating defense). If they could just score, this would be a blowout. Instead, they've only just taken the lead here in the 4th quarter. The Sixers didn't get an offensive rebound until the 4th quarter, and still have 0 second chance points.

The Sixers may wind up winning, but they're playing like an inexperienced team tonight.

[theAlaskanBear]

The Bulls are back to playing Bulls basketball (dominating the boards, playing suffocating defense). If they could just score, this would be a blowout. Instead, they've only just taken the lead here in the 4th quarter. The Sixers didn't get an offensive rebound until the 4th quarter, and still have 0 second chance points.

The Sixers may wind up winning, but they're playing like an inexperienced team tonight.

Are you watching on NBAtv or is there some secret Bulls channel I don't know about?

[CDu]

are you watching on nbatv or is there some secret bulls channel i don't know about?

nbatv.

[CDu]

Uggh. And after saying that the Bulls played great, they just made two inexperienced mistakes at the end. Up one, with the ball, under 10 seconds left, Watson (80% ft shooter) passes to Asik (45% ft shooter). Asik gets fouled, misses both. Then, the Bulls compound the mistake by crashing the offensive glass (and failed). This allowed a fast break by Iguodala, who got fouled with 2 seconds to go. He hits both, Bulls missed the desperation shot, game over, season over.

I'm sick right now. The Bulls played without their best player and their best interior player and won comfortably at home and then should have won Game 6. But a couple of brain farts at the end and that's all she wrote.

Oh well. Great game from Deng. Bad shooting game from Boozer. Tough way to lose.

[SoCalDukeFan]

76ers against the Celtics.

The head coaches of both teams have sons who played for Duke.

SoCal

[muzikfrk75]

Kobe has to be one of the most frustrated people on the planet tonight. He has the flu, therefore you think that Bynum and Gasol would step up in this game, right? Nah. Bynum pouted again and Gasol played like he's ready for the Olympics.

Lawson was on fire the whole game. Brewer and Faried played well also. Game 7 on Saturday. I think that the home team wins around 82% of the time, but I'll still be watching.

[hq2]

The head coaches of both teams have sons who played for Duke.

SoCal

Since Elton's on the sixers, that gives them the edge, ex Duke player wise. Hard to say how the series
will turn out; both teams have been kind of up and down. I think the C's played about as well as they
could against the Hawks and still barely got by. The sixers took the first two meetings, but the C's won
the one down the stretch and played better later. I say Celtics in 7, since they have home court, but with
old players out there, injuries could stop them at any time.

[luvdahops]

Uggh. And after saying that the Bulls played great, they just made two inexperienced mistakes at the end. Up one, with the ball, under 10 seconds left, Watson (80% ft shooter) passes to Asik (45% ft shooter). Asik gets fouled, misses both. Then, the Bulls compound the mistake by crashing the offensive glass (and failed). This allowed a fast break by Iguodala, who got fouled with 2 seconds to go. He hits both, Bulls missed the desperation shot, game over, season over.

I'm sick right now. The Bulls played without their best player and their best interior player and won comfortably at home and then should have won Game 6. But a couple of brain farts at the end and that's all she wrote.

Oh well. Great game from Deng. Bad shooting game from Boozer. Tough way to lose.

Totally with you. I thought Watson made a number of poor plays throughout the fourth quarter, not just at the end, and at times when they really could have pulled away.

[elvis14]

Since Elton's on the sixers, that gives them the edge, ex Duke player wise. Hard to say how the series
will turn out; both teams have been kind of up and down. I think the C's played about as well as they
could against the Hawks and still barely got by. The sixers took the first two meetings, but the C's won
the one down the stretch and played better later. I say Celtics in 7, since they have home court, but with
old players out there, injuries could stop them at any time.

Interesting, I don't see it that hard. I'm happy for coach Collins that he was able to win a series with the Sixers. It's funny that you mention that point out the C's barely got by the Hawks because what I saw was a Sixers team that squeaked by a Bulls team that was missing 2 starters. I think the C's are the easy choice here.

Note I'm not a Celtics fan, I just wasn't all that impressed with the Sixers (and they squeaked into the playoffs in the 8 spot).

Speaking of not impressed, holy crap were the Lakers just awful last night. Bynum and Gasol just looked to be going through the motions and Kobe was taking too many long jump shots (and the Nuggets played really really well).

[CDu]

Totally with you. I thought Watson made a number of poor plays throughout the fourth quarter, not just at the end, and at times when they really could have pulled away.

I thought he had a few really nice plays toward the end (the driving dish to Gibson where Gibson got fouled) and the assist to Asik on the pick and roll from WAY up top. But the rest of the quarter he was nonexistent (except for missing shots). And then he had the inexplicably dump decision on that breakaway.

He should have played keep-away from everyone, just dribbling as far away from the defense as possible, running more time off and eventually getting fouled (as the team's best on-court FT shooter). It'd have taken another second or two for anyone to catch him, and then he'd have at least hit one of two. And the Bulls would likely have been in better position to defend (if he hit the second). Just a horrible, horrible decision. It's amazing how one single decision can so dramatically swing the tide of the game that late.

The tough part is that I really think this team had a chance to win it all if not for the injuries. Their bench was much better this year than last year, they vastly improved at SG, Boozer was healthier, and Deng, Noah, and Rose had a year's more experience with Thibadeau. Now, I worry that the door is going to close. Next year is a question mark with Rose's injury. And an ACL tear for a player as reliant on quickness and explosiveness is a reason for concern long-term. They're so heavily invested in two guys (Boozer and Rose) whose injury history becomes a long-term concern. I suspect Boozer will eventually be amnestied after next year, and the Bulls will then try to reload with another star. But what was potentially a Finals contender for this year and the next couple of years now is very much in doubt.

[Billy Dat]

Free throws played such a huge roll in the last minute of both deciding games last night.

-Obviously, Asik missed his but, just as importantly, Iggy, a sub-70% free throw shooter, made both the tying and go ahead foul shots with only seconds remaining.

-In the Celtics v Hawks game, Ray Allen shockingly missed the first of two shots (made the second) allowing Al Horford to step to the line with a chance to tie...but he missed the front end...and then Pierce hit 2 to make the margin 4.

Chicago and Atlanta both could have won those games and looked like they would win them with one minute left in each. Crazy.

I am psyched for Sixers/Celtics partially because it was such a torrid rivalry in my youth. I mean, Dr. J and Bird had a fist fight midcourt!

[JNort]

Interesting, I don't see it that hard. I'm happy for coach Collins that he was able to win a series with the Sixers. It's funny that you mention that point out the C's barely got by the Hawks because what I saw was a Sixers team that squeaked by a Bulls team that was missing 2 starters. I think the C's are the easy choice here.

Note I'm not a Celtics fan, I just wasn't all that impressed with the Sixers (and they squeaked into the playoffs in the 8 spot).

Speaking of not impressed, holy crap were the Lakers just awful last night. Bynum and Gasol just looked to be going through the motions and Kobe was taking too many long jump shots (and the Nuggets played really really well).

If they are going in at a good % then Kobe can't take to many jump shots. He shot well last night and Bynum I thought was trying his best but it just wouldn't go down for him. He did get 16 boards though.

[muzikfrk75]

Only one game tonight, Grizz at Clips.

CP3 and Blake are starting but are injured.

I think that the Grizz will win this game...and Game 7.

[CoachJ10]

I thought he had a few really nice plays toward the end (the driving dish to Gibson where Gibson got fouled) and the assist to Asik on the pick and roll from WAY up top. But the rest of the quarter he was nonexistent (except for missing shots). And then he had the inexplicably dump decision on that breakaway.

He should have played keep-away from everyone, just dribbling as far away from the defense as possible, running more time off and eventually getting fouled (as the team's best on-court FT shooter). It'd have taken another second or two for anyone to catch him, and then he'd have at least hit one of two. And the Bulls would likely have been in better position to defend (if he hit the second). Just a horrible, horrible decision. It's amazing how one single decision can so dramatically swing the tide of the game that late.

The tough part is that I really think this team had a chance to win it all if not for the injuries. Their bench was much better this year than last year, they vastly improved at SG, Boozer was healthier, and Deng, Noah, and Rose had a year's more experience with Thibadeau. Now, I worry that the door is going to close. Next year is a question mark with Rose's injury. And an ACL tear for a player as reliant on quickness and explosiveness is a reason for concern long-term. They're so heavily invested in two guys (Boozer and Rose) whose injury history becomes a long-term concern. I suspect Boozer will eventually be amnestied after next year, and the Bulls will then try to reload with another star. But what was potentially a Finals contender for this year and the next couple of years now is very much in doubt.

Tibs certainly did not distinguish himself with his coaching in that 4th quarter. From keeping dead-tired players in, to using his time-outs poorly, to not subbing in offense for defense...he hurt the Bull's chances of winning considerably. Despite not having Rose and Noah, the Bulls should have won this game (and this series). The 76ers are, quite frankly, not a good team. They have a few good players (Holliday and Iggy), but they have zero chemistry. The level of frustration that Coach Collins showed on the court with the selfish and dumb play of his team on offense said it all. Hopefully Tibs learns from his coaching errors. Coaches need to step up in the playoffs as well...not just the players.

[theAlaskanBear]

Stern gave a great interview with a reporter for ESPN in the stands of the Indiana/Heat game.

The question from the reporter was something like, "given all the injuries this season blah blah the condensed schedule, blah blah blah"

Stern's response was, "Normally we have 5 ACL injuries a season, we had two until the playoffs, and then 2 very public injuries. You guys at ESPN have all the data, all the numbers, why dont you do the homework and come back and tell me if it has anything to with condensed season (before you ask inaccurate, stupid questions was the implication)."

I like Stern, he is the commish I would most love to pick his brains about Sports and running a league.

[theAlaskanBear]

Battier had a great game defensive on Danny Granger, despite not doing much for the offense.

Also, I have an extremely negative, visceral reaction anytime I see Hansbrough playing football, erm, I mean basketball.

[Starter]

I like Stern too, though I thought the lockout was handled in a very hamfisted fashion. Which is probably why he's so prickly about questions about the injuries that may or may not have come as a result of the shortened schedule. (Though, I mean, come on, we all know the injuries come from wearing Adidas sneakers.)

[muzikfrk75]

Bosh is out indefinitely with an abdominal strain.

Apparently this type of injury can be tricky. Al Jefferson didn't miss a game...however Kevin Garnett missed 3 weeks. Right now most are assuming that he'll be out for the rest of this series at least, which means that Lebron is going to play the 4 more. Battier/Miller/Anthony/Turiaf/Haslem will have to step up because the Pacers will probably trap Bron and Wade as much as possible in order to get the ball out of their hands. I still think the Heat will win in 5, but if they play the Celtics without Bosh it could be a major major problem...

[elvis14]

I was looking forward to the Memphis-LAC game 7 basketball game. Unfortunately it was more of a football game. The refs lost control of this game from the start and it was ugly the whole way. Looked like and NCAA tournament game (and that's not a good thing). Hope it's not a trend because I prefer hoops over wrestling and MMA.

Congrats to the Clippers for fighting their way to a series win. And I do mean fighting!

[moonpie23]

the celtics are the whiniest, dirtiest team in the league.....they get calls like they were paid for....


way to go 76er's .....love seeing the celts lose...

[hq2]

the celtics are the whiniest, dirtiest team in the league.....they get calls like they were paid for....


way to go 76er's .....love seeing the celts lose...

Pretty ugly game. Down the stretch, Philly got it done, Boston didn't. Elton didn't do all that much.

[Newton_14]

the celtics are the whiniest, dirtiest team in the league.....they get calls like they were paid for....


way to go 76er's .....love seeing the celts lose...

They did not get the call that mattered tonight though. The KG pick with 12 seconds to go was iffy. Ball game right there.

[moonpie23]

They did not get the call that mattered tonight though. The KG pick with 12 seconds to go was iffy. Ball game right there.

i most humbly disagree.......that call FINALLY happened.........

[elvis14]

i most humbly disagree.......that call FINALLY happened.........

I'm not a big fan of refs allowing blatant cheating at the end of a game (see Boozer + Indiana). I like KG but on the play in question they called the second foul because KG hit the first guy with an extended forearm (not blatant, wasn't called and that's OK) and then set a moving pick (with extension of his arms) on the second guy. That's a foul, call it, it's an easy call. I hate the argument that refs should let the players decide, by committing that foul, KG decided that part of the game.

[Billy Dat]

I'm not a big fan of refs allowing blatant cheating at the end of a game (see Boozer + Indiana). I like KG but on the play in question they called the second foul because KG hit the first guy with an extended forearm (not blatant, wasn't called and that's OK) and then set a moving pick (with extension of his arms) on the second guy. That's a foul, call it, it's an easy call. I hate the argument that refs should let the players decide, by committing that foul, KG decided that part of the game.

And, to add to this, KG's illegal screen sprang Pierce for a wide open look at the game tying 3. It's not as if this play happened on the weak side, it was right in front of the inbounder and the referee watching that aspect of the play unfold. Chris Webber made a great comment immediately after the play that Doug Collins had been in the refs ear for two games about KG's sketchy screens so the ref was waiting for it. In the postgame interview, Iggy said the same thing, and that he knew to get the call he would have to really fight through the screen to show that he was getting illegally chipped. Bottom line, the 76ers from staff to players were primed to make KG look like the dirty chippy player that he is (my highly biased opinion). KG is a hall of famer, I take nothing away from his career, but, like other HOFers such as John Stockton, he is also dirty and chippy.

I think the Celtics are a bad match-up for Elton. He has played little and I don't expect we'll see a lot of him this series.

[Turk]

Yeah, it was interesting that the Sixers went down the stretch with this lineup: Jrue, Lou Williams, Evan Turner, Iggy, and Lavoy Allen (!!) at center, whose sideways 16-ft bank shot heave as the shot clock went off possibly kept the Sixers from coughing up the game... Sweet Lou drives me nuts - his shot selection is not only atrocious but predictable. I think I can tell when he brings the ball across half court whether or not he's going to jack one no matter how many guys are on him. On the other hand, he attacks the basket and he's their most consistent shooter when they're moving the ball around. Looks like we're going to get a classic matchup of Old and Savvy vs. Young and Stupid. The biggest surprise to me is that Thaddeus Young didn't get much time; he must be either banged up or in Coach Collins' doghouse.

[Billy Dat]

Yeah, it was interesting that the Sixers went down the stretch with this lineup: Jrue, Lou Williams, Evan Turner, Iggy, and Lavoy Allen (!!) at center, whose sideways 16-ft bank shot heave as the shot clock went off possibly kept the Sixers from coughing up the game... Sweet Lou drives me nuts - his shot selection is not only atrocious but predictable. I think I can tell when he brings the ball across half court whether or not he's going to jack one no matter how many guys are on him. On the other hand, he attacks the basket and he's their most consistent shooter when they're moving the ball around. Looks like we're going to get a classic matchup of Old and Savvy vs. Young and Stupid. The biggest surprise to me is that Thaddeus Young didn't get much time; he must be either banged up or in Coach Collins' doghouse.

Lou Williams has a lot of JR Smith in him which, as you say, is both a good and bad thing, but mostly good. I love your description of the series - classic.

[hq2]

I think the Celtics are a bad match-up for Elton. He has played little and I don't expect we'll see a lot of him this series.



Hard for him to do much against KG.

[CDu]

Hard for him to do much against KG.

Yeah, there are very few teams that can consider Garnett a good matchup. That guy can play some defense. And when he's healthy, he can play some offense too. Terrific basketball player. A jerk and a punk, but a terrific basketball player.

[muzikfrk75]

Will the Clippers win a game against the Spurs? Personally I think they win one...but just one.

[elvis14]

Looking at the box score from the Pacers game vs. the Heat I noticed an interesting stat. Shane's plus/minus in the loss was +10. LameBron and DWade were both at -7. Of course all SportCenter will talk about is that they went for 28 and 24 points (Shane only had 5).

[BobbyFan]

Looking at the box score from the Pacers game vs. the Heat I noticed an interesting stat. Shane's plus/minus in the loss was +10. LameBron and DWade were both at -7. Of course all SportCenter will talk about is that they went for 28 and 24 points (Shane only had 5).

No, all that will be talked about is LeBron's final minute in which he missed two FTs and deferred to Chalmers in their last possession.

[CDu]

Looking at the box score from the Pacers game vs. the Heat I noticed an interesting stat. Shane's plus/minus in the loss was +10. LameBron and DWade were both at -7. Of course all SportCenter will talk about is that they went for 28 and 24 points (Shane only had 5).

This is another example of +/- not really telling the story. Battier's fantastic +/- was in large part a function of replacing Haslem at PF in the lineup. Haslem had an awful +/- of -12. James had 28 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 6 steals, and only 2 turnovers. He was perhaps the only reason Miami was in the game, as Wade was somewhat ineffective and nobody else could score. So James is rightfully the story here. He carried the team up until the final minute, and then missed two key free throws and chose to pass to Wade and Chalmers (who each missed good scoring chances that would have tied it).

This series might just be interesting. Without Bosh, the Heat have no one other than Haslem to play the pick and roll game with James and Wade. That makes a big difference for them offensively, because Indiana can stay at home and focus on the driver and the other shooters and ignore the screener. It's quietly one of the more valuable things that Bosh did: screen and hit the 15-18 footer; screen and roll to the rim. That's nonexistent with Joel Anthony. And if Haslem is as ineffective as he was in Game 2, it may be gone entirely until Bosh comes back.

[superdave]

No, all that will be talked about is LeBron's final minute in which he missed two FTs and deferred to Chalmers in their last possession.

That was hilarious. The Heat just cannot execute in the final minute of a close game. Lebron gets fidgety and everyone else seems to rush to help him. Spoelstra does not have a handle on this team. Were they out of timeouts or something?

[theAlaskanBear]

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/05/15/lebrons-bricks-gagged-or-gassed/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

I thought this was an unusually well thought out post from the NBA Hangtimeblog. Lots of interesting stats.

[pfrduke]

Can anyone explain the rationale for the scheduling of the Western Conference semifinals? Both series have back-to-backs for games 3 and 4 (Fri/Sat for LAL-OKC, and Sat/Sun for SAS-LAC), but then have extra days off elsewhere in the series - for the LAL-OKC series, there will be 3 full days off between game 6 and game 7 (if necessary). Why not just spread everything out so that there is the normal one day off between each game (and, if necessary, an extra day on one of the travel periods - the east mostly gets this right, although the extra day in the MIA-IND series is between games 3 and 4)? Is this a building access issue because the Lakers, Clippers, and Kings are all still alive in the postseason, and all have home series this weekend?

[theAlaskanBear]

Can anyone explain the rationale for the scheduling of the Western Conference semifinals? Both series have back-to-backs for games 3 and 4 (Fri/Sat for LAL-OKC, and Sat/Sun for SAS-LAC), but then have extra days off elsewhere in the series - for the LAL-OKC series, there will be 3 full days off between game 6 and game 7 (if necessary). Why not just spread everything out so that there is the normal one day off between each game (and, if necessary, an extra day on one of the travel periods - the east mostly gets this right, although the extra day in the MIA-IND series is between games 3 and 4)? Is this a building access issue because the Lakers, Clippers, and Kings are all still alive in the postseason, and all have home series this weekend?

Generally speaking, you can expect 1 day between games, or 2 for travel. I think you hit the nail on the head with the LA problem -- you have teams that use the same building...

You can't have two games on a Friday because you can't start the games before 6-7pm because its a weekday -- so there is not enough time to get the Stadium changed over between matches unless you want to start a game at midnight.

Thursday Kings play at night.
Friday Lakers play at night.
Saturday, both teams play -- Clips get a Noon start, Lakers play at night.
Sunday the Kings play at Noon, Clips play at night.

http://staplescenter.com/events

Another problem is balancing all the first round series. The NBA has to get 8 total series on TV and wants to limit competing times...obviously its impossible in the first round, but in the second round I believe there are NO overlapping games timewise -- the NBA doesn't want to split its own audience where possible for enhanced revenue and ad-ratings.

[pfrduke]

Generally speaking, you can expect 1 day between games, or 2 for travel. I think you hit the nail on the head with the LA problem -- you have teams that use the same building...

You can't have two games on a Friday because you can't start the games before 6-7pm because its a weekday -- so there is not enough time to get the Stadium changed over between matches unless you want to start a game at midnight.

Thursday Kings play at night.
Friday Lakers play at night.
Saturday, both teams play -- Clips get a Noon start, Lakers play at night.
Sunday the Kings play at Noon, Clips play at night.

http://staplescenter.com/events

Another problem is balancing all the first round series. The NBA has to get 8 total series on TV and wants to limit competing times...obviously its impossible in the first round, but in the second round I believe there are NO overlapping games timewise -- the NBA doesn't want to split its own audience where possible for enhanced revenue and ad-ratings.

That all makes sense, but you solve the Staples problem just as well by having the Lakers play Fri/Sun and the Clippers play Sat/Mon. I actually can't remember the last time that a playoff series had a back-to-back - definitely hasn't happened in the last couple years.

[Starter]

I'm a LeBron guy. I always have been, since I saw him play in high school. And I've always thought he'd accomplish great things.

But for him to start in with the excuses about having to play power forward with no Bosh... it really is reasonable to wonder if mentally he has it in him to be truly great. I do believe he'll win championships -- this team is great, and he's the best player in the game -- but it's a heck of a lot harder during the playoffs than it is during the regular season. The best players always turned it up a notch -- Dirk, Wade, Magic (even as a rookie, when he played center), Duncan, even Nash in a losing effort. As a basketball fan and a longtime follower of LeBron's career, I want to see that he has it in him to do that as well, that he's grown from his obvious yet understandable inadequacies in this area when he was shouldering the load of an entire city in Cleveland, while trying to live up to the outgrown expectations of a bloodthirsty media and national fan base. Even when the numbers are there, you wonder if the man behind them truly is.

I know it's just one loss. I know the Heat will almost certainly win the series. (And by the way, I'm far from a Heat fan. It's just that even for the most bitter Knicks fan, I find it harder and harder to root against teams as I get older. It seems like an awful waste of attention and an unnecessary source of aggravation. Though don't get me wrong, I have no love lost for UNC basketball.)

And yet that doubt is there. LeBron really needs to get over the hump this year. Because the summers will keep getting longer and longer if he doesn't.

[hq2]

Meanwhile, back in Philly.... C's blew out the Sixers. Elton again a non-factor.
He can't do anything against KG.

[moonpie23]

wow....tight game with the thunder taking it.....

kobe looked irritated when a wide open steve "farmer" blake took the last shot...

[theAlaskanBear]

wow....tight game with the thunder taking it.....

kobe looked irritated when a wide open steve "farmer" blake took the last shot...

Interesting sportscenter stat: Kobe has not hit a shot to tie the game or go ahead at the end of a playoff game since 2006. His teammates were 4/7 though.

[superdave]

I'm a LeBron guy. I always have been, since I saw him play in high school. And I've always thought he'd accomplish great things.

But for him to start in with the excuses about having to play power forward with no Bosh... it really is reasonable to wonder if mentally he has it in him to be truly great. I do believe he'll win championships -- this team is great, and he's the best player in the game -- but it's a heck of a lot harder during the playoffs than it is during the regular season. The best players always turned it up a notch -- Dirk, Wade, Magic (even as a rookie, when he played center), Duncan, even Nash in a losing effort. As a basketball fan and a longtime follower of LeBron's career, I want to see that he has it in him to do that as well, that he's grown from his obvious yet understandable inadequacies in this area when he was shouldering the load of an entire city in Cleveland, while trying to live up to the outgrown expectations of a bloodthirsty media and national fan base. Even when the numbers are there, you wonder if the man behind them truly is.

I know it's just one loss. I know the Heat will almost certainly win the series. (And by the way, I'm far from a Heat fan. It's just that even for the most bitter Knicks fan, I find it harder and harder to root against teams as I get older. It seems like an awful waste of attention and an unnecessary source of aggravation. Though don't get me wrong, I have no love lost for UNC basketball.)

And yet that doubt is there. LeBron really needs to get over the hump this year. Because the summers will keep getting longer and longer if he doesn't.

It would be interesting if Lebron's most notorious playoff performance was the 48 points he put up against Detroit in 2007. After that night, I'm sure everyone thought he'd blow the NBA record books wide open. Not so much. The game does not slow down for him the last few minutes.

[elvis14]

wow....tight game with the thunder taking it.....

kobe looked irritated when a wide open steve "farmer" blake took the last shot...

I'm no Blake supporter (spear the turtle) but Artest made the right pass to the right guy at that time. He missed the shot. I know Kobe was irritated but if I had to guess he was mad about losing and about him making mistakes that cost them down the stretch as much as he was irritated the he didn't get that last shot. Once the game got into crunch time, the Lakers abandoned the inside game (the offense that got them the lead) and just kept handing the ball to Kobe. That didn't go too well last night. They really needed better ball movement and needed to be looking for the best shot (like that last possession where Blake missed a wide open shot).

[theAlaskanBear]

It would be interesting if Lebron's most notorious playoff performance was the 48 points he put up against Detroit in 2007. After that night, I'm sure everyone thought he'd blow the NBA record books wide open. Not so much. The game does not slow down for him the last few minutes.

I don't buy this. The issue is perception...enough people have repeated the "not clutch" mantra of Haters with no regards to actual stats. Now you have every other question to Lebron out of a reporters mouth about "clutchness" and "closing games" when he has been one of the best in the NBA at this...but it is becoming a problem because of the media fishbowl.

Take a browse through the "clutch" stats at 82games.com...the last few years in Cleveland he was arguably the best finisher in game. A lot of that is team chemistry and knowing your role. His first year in Miami there were definite chemistry issues as LeBron and Wade and Bosh tried to figure out their roles. But even then LeBron was the fourth best player in the league in terms of clutch production points. and shot a higher percentage than Kobe or Derrick Rose.

I think part of the problem is LeBron's uniqueness...he has a PF body, a SF game, and a PG vision. If Miami wants James to be aggressive and hammer it in low they can't also expect him to play PG and get everyone open -- which is what he has been trying to do for Miami. It is too exhausting and roles cause conflicts because to get guys open he has to play on the perimeter with the ball rather than doing off-the-ball cutting, screening and establishing position down low.

Ultimately though it is a team game. Wade and James were exhausted at the end of the game 2 and James played every minute of the second half. The other guys have got to step up, and the Heat better hope Bosh can get back and play well because they can't win with just two guys. Chalmers and Battier had FIVE points each to tie for third leading scorer in the last game.

Superdave, I think LeBron will have more of those games in him. In the Conference Semis last year James had two games at 35 points...in the Conference Finals he has 35pts in an OT win over Chicago. In the NBA Finals Wade asserted his game and was the man, so LeBron played a passive and deferring role...but Wade is clearly on the decline in his career and you will see James assume more and more responsibility and play more like he played in Cleveland.

[elvis14]

I don't buy this. The issue is perception...enough people have repeated the "not clutch" mantra of Haters with no regards to actual stats. Now you have every other question to Lebron out of a reporters mouth about "clutchness" and "closing games" when he has been one of the best in the NBA at this...but it is becoming a problem because of the media fishbowl.

Labron is so good that when he doesn't close it's a bit of a shock. When the media gets something that's a bit of a shock, they ride it for all it's worth because people pay attention. I think that drawing a double or triple team and hitting an open man is as important for a "closer" as making a forced shot with 4 hands in your face.

And I'm no Labron apologist, I pretty much always want him to lose (perhaps because he's so good).

[Starter]

Labron is so good that when he doesn't close it's a bit of a shock. When the media gets something that's a bit of a shock, they ride it for all it's worth because people pay attention. I think that drawing a double or triple team and hitting an open man is as important for a "closer" as making a forced shot with 4 hands in your face.

And I'm no Labron apologist, I pretty much always want him to lose (perhaps because he's so good).

Yeah, absolutely dead-on, though you do want to see someone with his talent take the bull by the horns a bit. Jordan notably passed off a few times at the end of games -- and his teammates got the job done in those high-profile spots -- but he always wanted the ball and if he wanted a basket, you were going to have a tough time stopping him. And I'd offer that it's really not about statistics. Even I have to admit LeBron folded like a house of cards in his last playoff series with Cleveland. You want that mentality. He's been through the public wringer, brought on by himself in a lot of ways, but still -- he should want to get the monkey and everyone else off his back.

[superdave]

Yeah, absolutely dead-on, though you do want to see someone with his talent take the bull by the horns a bit. Jordan notably passed off a few times at the end of games -- and his teammates got the job done in those high-profile spots -- but he always wanted the ball and if he wanted a basket, you were going to have a tough time stopping him. And I'd offer that it's really not about statistics. Even I have to admit LeBron folded like a house of cards in his last playoff series with Cleveland. You want that mentality. He's been through the public wringer, brought on by himself in a lot of ways, but still -- he should want to get the monkey and everyone else off his back.

Yeah, his playoff series in Cleveland, his claim the Heat would win 8 titles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT-I8jQDQ7c), and last year's collapse against Dallas all add up to "What's wrong with Lebron?"

He's a really good player with two Finals appearances and 3 league MVPs, but none of that will mean much if he does not rack up some titles. He's capable, we all know that. That's why he's held to a higher standard than someone like Karl Malone or Vince Carter. But he's also claimed he's going to win those titles, so he deserves the scrutiny.

I'd love to see him (or most anybody) win a bunch of titles and dethrone Jordan (Unc jackI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.) so at one point I rooted for Lebron to win a bunch. It seems like I'll have to move on to cheering for KD to be that guy now.

[elvis14]

I'm a real wanker for saying this.) so at one point I rooted for Lebron to win a bunch. It seems like I'll have to move on to cheering for KD to be that guy now.

First, I don't think you're a real wanker for saying that! :D

Speaking of KD does anyone else look at the make up of that OKC team and see where they could be really really good? It's not just that they have a bunch of pieces, they seem to have pieces that fit well together. Sometimes, as good as they are I wonder if they'll be able to take it to the next level. I just really like how Westbrook, KD, Ibaka, Perkins, Harden, etc complement each other. Should they be dominating with that lineup?

[sagegrouse]

Yeah, his playoff series in Cleveland, his claim the Heat would win 8 titles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT-I8jQDQ7c), and last year's collapse against Dallas all add up to "What's wrong with Lebron?"

He's a really good player with two Finals appearances and 3 league MVPs, but none of that will mean much if he does not rack up some titles. He's capable, we all know that. That's why he's held to a higher standard than someone like Karl Malone or Vince Carter. But he's also claimed he's going to win those titles, so he deserves the scrutiny.

I'd love to see him (or most anybody) win a bunch of titles and dethrone Jordan (Unc jackI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.) so at one point I rooted for Lebron to win a bunch. It seems like I'll have to move on to cheering for KD to be that guy now.

Here's the Sage Grouse scale on criticism of LBJ:


0 NBA championships - continues unabated; may even increase.
1 NBA championship - declines by 90 percent.
2 NBA championships - declines by 98 percent.
3-6 NBA championships - declines by 99.5 percent; some people will never forget the promise of 7!


sagegrouse

[pfrduke]

Speaking of KD does anyone else look at the make up of that OKC team and see where they could be really really good? It's not just that they have a bunch of pieces, they seem to have pieces that fit well together. Sometimes, as good as they are I wonder if they'll be able to take it to the next level. I just really like how Westbrook, KD, Ibaka, Perkins, Harden, etc complement each other. Should they be dominating with that lineup?

I'm not sure what more you want out of them. They had the third-best record and third-best point differential in the league. They're 6-0 in the playoffs so far (only the Spurs are also undefeated). They're one of the favorites for the title - not just a contender.

[superdave]

First, I don't think you're a real wanker for saying that! :D

Speaking of KD does anyone else look at the make up of that OKC team and see where they could be really really good? It's not just that they have a bunch of pieces, they seem to have pieces that fit well together. Sometimes, as good as they are I wonder if they'll be able to take it to the next level. I just really like how Westbrook, KD, Ibaka, Perkins, Harden, etc complement each other. Should they be dominating with that lineup?

OKC is 6-0! They can still play better though.

OKC will have trouble paying Ibaka and Harden with Durant getting the max, Westbrook getting near max and Perkins signed through 2015. They may be able to clean out some of the guys at the end of the roster - Cole Aldrich, Eric Maynor - but they most likely cannot keep the gang together.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-team-salary
(http://www.hoopsworld.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-team-salary)

I'd do all I could to keep Harden. He's priority #1 considering Durant and Westbrook are under contract. Next up I'd see if Ibaka can be re-signed in the $8 million range and what I need to do to clear up space to pull that off. Then I'd consider cutting costs by packing assets for 2nd round pick, then pick Euro's with those picks and let them stay overseas a few years and keep the end of the bench filled with league minimum guys.

[theAlaskanBear]

OKC is 6-0! They can still play better though.

OKC will have trouble paying Ibaka and Harden with Durant getting the max, Westbrook getting near max and Perkins signed through 2015. They may be able to clean out some of the guys at the end of the roster - Cole Aldrich, Eric Maynor - but they most likely cannot keep the gang together.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-team-salary
(http://www.hoopsworld.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-team-salary)

I'd do all I could to keep Harden. He's priority #1 considering Durant and Westbrook are under contract. Next up I'd see if Ibaka can be re-signed in the $8 million range and what I need to do to clear up space to pull that off. Then I'd consider cutting costs by packing assets for 2nd round pick, then pick Euro's with those picks and let them stay overseas a few years and keep the end of the bench filled with league minimum guys.

You are right on about Harden. He is the heart of this team.

[elvis14]

I'm not sure what more you want out of them. They had the third-best record and third-best point differential in the league. They're 6-0 in the playoffs so far (only the Spurs are also undefeated). They're one of the favorites for the title - not just a contender.

You're right, I'm not trying to be negative. I said I wonder if they can take it to the next level. I guess the next level would be more playoff success and thus far this year they are having it. Watching them play games I often feel like they could be better. Hard to explain. I've seen dominate teams before that just roll over teams. I see this team winning games (like the last 6) but I guess I think they are capable of more games like game 1 vs. the Lakers.


OKC is 6-0! They can still play better though.

OKC will have trouble paying Ibaka and Harden with Durant getting the max, Westbrook getting near max and Perkins signed through 2015. They may be able to clean out some of the guys at the end of the roster - Cole Aldrich, Eric Maynor - but they most likely cannot keep the gang together.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-team-salary
(http://www.hoopsworld.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-team-salary)

I'd do all I could to keep Harden. He's priority #1 considering Durant and Westbrook are under contract. Next up I'd see if Ibaka can be re-signed in the $8 million range and what I need to do to clear up space to pull that off. Then I'd consider cutting costs by packing assets for 2nd round pick, then pick Euro's with those picks and let them stay overseas a few years and keep the end of the bench filled with league minimum guys.

Thanks for the info superdave, I was wondering how long they'd be able to keep the nucleus of this team together. I also agree that Harden has to stay if they are going to continue on their upward path (or sustain).

[NSDukeFan]

I'm not sure what more you want out of them.

Play their home games in Seattle?

[pfrduke]

Play their home games in Seattle?

Well I certainly want that. I had season tickets before they left (Key Arena was a 5 minute walk from my front door), and it's been tough to be deprived of live playoff basketball these last few years.

[moonpie23]

heat couldn't hit anything tonight and the pacers hit everything....


bosh's absence is looming large.....the heat all looked dejected by the half

[muzikfrk75]

heat couldn't hit anything tonight and the pacers hit everything....


bosh's absence is looming large.....the heat all looked dejected by the half


Chalmers played incredible. Lebron was ok. As for Wade...not only was he nonexistent on the court, he got into it with his coach on the sideline. SMH.

[Billy Dat]

Chalmers played incredible. Lebron was ok. As for Wade...not only was he nonexistent on the court, he got into it with his coach on the sideline. SMH.

I happen to be in Indy on business and walked up to the stadium and bought a playoff ticket for $35 at Noon. It is a fantastic arena, and it got really loud at times, but most of the patrons still had to be coached when to cheer, and they did they "everyone wear the same yellow tshirt" gig...but I guess that fan coaching ship sailed long ago.

Wade was invisible, Miami really can look bad at times. As hard as I root for Shane, and as well as he was playing West, he gives them NOTHING on offense. When he's not in the corner, his defender doesn't even come within 5 feet of him, and he never even looks at the basket. Aside from Chalmers, none of the rest of the Heat (save Wade and LBJ) ever look to score. It is insane.

The Heat are in real trouble. At the risk of getting too far ahead, I think we're looking at an epic Spurs/OKC series to decide this year's title.

[moonpie23]

At the risk of getting too far ahead, I think we're looking at an epic Spurs/OKC series to decide this year's title.

well, except they are both in the west (unless i'm misreading you)......are you saying the winner of that series cake-walks over ANYONE from the east?

[subzero02]

I think that's exactly what he's saying... If he is, I think I agree

[moonpie23]

well, i think that bosh is expected to be out only thru the pacers series.....if the heat can somehow get by them and get bosh back....it could be on again...

[Greg_Newton]

"Strained abdominal" is no joke. Otherwise known as a sports hernia (depending on severity), it tends to take a long time to heal because there's no way to rest/isolate your core muscles, and tends to linger. He might eventually have to have surgery, like Grant Hill and JJ Redick did when they suffered similar strains/tears to the same muscles. I'd personally be surprised if he returned after a couple of weeks, but I suppose you never know with world class athletes...

[Starter]

The Spurs are amazing. I'm buying in, I think they're the best, deepest team in basketball. OKC obviously can still win, they have an awesome team as well, but I believe San Antonio will give the Thunder fits on defense, and if any of those games are close, Brooks has a very good chance to lose them with his unimaginative offensive sets. This (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1198491/3/index.htm) article on Duncan from SI is a must-read, as is this (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--as-heat--other-super-teams-show-cracks--spurs-still-rolling.html) short feature from Wojnarowski. The money quote in there -- and this is NOT to start a dreaded DBR minutes debate -- comes from GM R.C. Buford:


We didn’t have practice time to prepare a group who hadn’t been used to playing together. But by not over-extending minutes for our top five players, that ability to develop came in game action to give us a much deeper team.

Is it any wonder Duncan looks as fresh as he has in years? Seriously, he looks like he's turned back the clock a half-dozen seasons. His per-minute statistics are as good as ever.

And Woj makes a pretty damning indictment of the Super Team mentality. You can do that, sure. But you have no depth. If it was three-on-three, forget it, nobody'd ever beat the Heat (with a healthy Bosh). But obviously, that's not the case. The Knicks wrecked their team concept too, to my eternal enmity, by excising four starters and multiple draft picks -- and in effect, Donnie Walsh and any semblance of organizational responsibility -- to get Carmelo Anthony. They'll never win anything, but at least they have uppercase Superstars.

[Des Esseintes]

And Woj makes a pretty damning indictment of the Super Team mentality. You can do that, sure. But you have no depth. If it was three-on-three, forget it, nobody'd ever beat the Heat (with a healthy Bosh). But obviously, that's not the case. The Knicks wrecked their team concept too, to my eternal enmity, by excising four starters and multiple draft picks -- and in effect, Donnie Walsh and any semblance of organizational responsibility -- to get Carmelo Anthony. They'll never win anything, but at least they have uppercase Superstars.

I don't really disagree with you, but it's probably worth mentioning that San Antonio does have a Big Three. Though they're aging now, the Spurs' dynastic run of titles was keyed off the dominance of Duncan, Ginobli and Parker. What sets the Spurs apart--and today fills in the blanks around an aging Duncan and a perpetually contusioned Ginobli--is brilliant financial discipline and roster development. NYC could have had Anthony, for less money and without giving up all the spare talent. Nor should the Knicks have gone the superteam route in the first place since Stoudemire and Anthony are neither one good enough to be the prime dude on a true top-heavy contender. (I know you know all that better than I.) Miami's situation is a bit trickier given the max salaries, but I remember multiple articles from smart people last year chastising Riley for his lack of bench imagination. I think it was maybe Henry Abbott at ESPN who even said that the Heat should have signed Zoubek(!) with the money they gave Magloire. As Magloire is a known quantity--an unplayable declining quantity--and a player such as Brian would only stand to improve, the investment of money and bench seat is a far better bet. (But Riles won his first Heat title with terrible veterans around Wade, so you dance--or, if you're Antoine Walker, shimmy--with what brung ya, I guess.) All of which is to say that you can have your superteam AND a functioning bench if you're smart and lucky enough.

[Starter]

I don't really disagree with you, but it's probably worth mentioning that San Antonio does have a Big Three. Though they're aging now, the Spurs' dynastic run of titles was keyed off the dominance of Duncan, Ginobli and Parker. What sets the Spurs apart--and today fills in the blanks around an aging Duncan and a perpetually contusioned Ginobli--is brilliant financial discipline and roster development. NYC could have had Anthony, for less money and without giving up all the spare talent. Nor should the Knicks have gone the superteam route in the first place since Stoudemire and Anthony are neither one good enough to be the prime dude on a true top-heavy contender. (I know you know all that better than I.) Miami's situation is a bit trickier given the max salaries, but I remember multiple articles from smart people last year chastising Riley for his lack of bench imagination. I think it was maybe Henry Abbott at ESPN who even said that the Heat should have signed Zoubek(!) with the money they gave Magloire. As Magloire is a known quantity--an unplayable declining quantity--and a player such as Brian would only stand to improve, the investment of money and bench seat is a far better bet. (But Riles won his first Heat title with terrible veterans around Wade, so you dance--or, if you're Antoine Walker, shimmy--with what brung ya, I guess.) All of which is to say that you can have your superteam AND a functioning bench if you're smart and lucky enough.

These are all excellent points. San Antonio's nucleus is the same as it ever was. The difference is they've built up the supporting cast so as to lighten the load around them. Of their most significant three players, Duncan played 28 minutes per game. Ginobili played 23 minutes per game, and was frequently injured, but they didn't miss a beat.

You're dead-on with the Knicks. If they really wanted Anthony, they could have waited him out. And if they hadn't gotten him, that wouldn't have been the end of the universe either. They probably would have ended up with Deron Williams; either that, or they'd have had salary cap solvency, roster flexibility and draft picks.

[CDu]

I don't really disagree with you, but it's probably worth mentioning that San Antonio does have a Big Three. Though they're aging now, the Spurs' dynastic run of titles was keyed off the dominance of Duncan, Ginobli and Parker. What sets the Spurs apart--and today fills in the blanks around an aging Duncan and a perpetually contusioned Ginobli--is brilliant financial discipline and roster development. NYC could have had Anthony, for less money and without giving up all the spare talent. Nor should the Knicks have gone the superteam route in the first place since Stoudemire and Anthony are neither one good enough to be the prime dude on a true top-heavy contender. (I know you know all that better than I.) Miami's situation is a bit trickier given the max salaries, but I remember multiple articles from smart people last year chastising Riley for his lack of bench imagination. I think it was maybe Henry Abbott at ESPN who even said that the Heat should have signed Zoubek(!) with the money they gave Magloire. As Magloire is a known quantity--an unplayable declining quantity--and a player such as Brian would only stand to improve, the investment of money and bench seat is a far better bet. (But Riles won his first Heat title with terrible veterans around Wade, so you dance--or, if you're Antoine Walker, shimmy--with what brung ya, I guess.) All of which is to say that you can have your superteam AND a functioning bench if you're smart and lucky enough.

Another example is the Bulls, who (I believe) had a very good shot to win the title this year before the injuries to Rose and Noah ruined everything. They had one superstar, several very good players, and an incredibly deep bench. As a result, they often hung around for the 1st and 3rd quarters and won games in the 2nd and 4th quarters. I think they were better than the Heat this year. They just didn't get the chance to prove it.

Another example is last year's Mavericks team. They had Dirk and a large supporting cast.

But the Heat's supporting cast is just awful. Unless James, Wade, and Bosh can go 40+ mpg, there are going to be long stretches where the bench gets exploited. And without Bosh, the lack of a frontcourt becomes glaring.

[Starter]

Another example is the Bulls, who (I believe) had a very good shot to win the title this year before the injuries to Rose and Noah ruined everything. They had one superstar, several very good players, and an incredibly deep bench. As a result, they often hung around for the 1st and 3rd quarters and won games in the 2nd and 4th quarters. I think they were better than the Heat this year. They just didn't get the chance to prove it.

Another example is last year's Mavericks team. They had Dirk and a large supporting cast.

But the Heat's supporting cast is just awful. Unless James, Wade, and Bosh can go 40+ mpg, there are going to be long stretches where the bench gets exploited. And without Bosh, the lack of a frontcourt becomes glaring.

Yup, all true. I do wonder how the Heat would have been playing right now if Bosh hadn't gotten hurt, because it seemed like they went from world-beaters to, well, whatever they are now overnight. (Of course, some of that may have had something to do with the Knicks, but they handled the Pacers pretty easily in Game 1 despite just one half of Bosh.) But you can't really play that game, you have to be prepared for something like this to happen. This team was not built to have someone like Bosh go down and survive it.

As an interesting byproduct, I think Bosh has earned a lot more respect simply by not being there. He was a really good player in Toronto, and he'd fully integrated himself with Miami this season to fit what they were doing; he was one of the most effective inside scorers in the league this year. It's kind of like Peyton Manning, who some joked was the real MVP of the league last season because of how apparently bad the team that he carried to 10-13 wins every year was without him.

[hq2]

As an interesting byproduct, I think Bosh has earned a lot more respect simply by not being there. He was a really good player in Toronto, and he'd fully integrated himself with Miami this season to fit what they were doing; he was one of the most effective inside scorers in the league this year. It's kind of like Peyton Manning, who some joked was the real MVP of the league last season because of how apparently bad the team that he carried to 10-13 wins every year was without him.

Yup. He's gonna earn himself a lot of respect for doing nothing. He isn't the greatest low post player in the league, but he is a presence; he plays adequate defense and scores enough to take some of the load off of James and Wade. Without him, I'd say Hibbert and West can do about what they want under there. Given that Indiana also has a decent bench (which I'd say Miami does not), I'd say the Pacers dispatch 'em in 6; maybe even 5.

[Starter]

So the Spurs erased a 20-point lead on the road and are now winning.

1. No lead is safe in the NBA.
2. This is the value of a veteran-led team. Nothing's going to faze Duncan.

[moonpie23]

whatever they were paying chris bosh, it wasn't enough.....the heat are just terrible right now without him and their body language suggests that they know they are done for...

[moonpie23]

ALERT !! ALERT !!! Tyler hansblah has been whistled for "traveling" in the pacers/heat game......

[Acymetric]

alert !! Alert !!! Tyler hansblah has been whistled for "traveling" in the pacers/heat game......

twice!

[moonpie23]

the SECOND travel called on him......the nba refs don't know who he is.....

[CajunDevil]

whatever they were paying chris bosh, it wasn't enough.....the heat are just terrible right now without him and their body language suggests that they know they are done for...

Not so fast, my friend. LeBron and D-Wade put on a show in the 3rd!

[Greg_Newton]

That was an INSANE performance by Lebron James. 40, 18 and 9 on 50%+ shooting, playing PG/PF much of the time, and facing mostly doubleteams.

He gets a lot of hate, but people tend to conveniently forget how many great games like this he's had.

[BobbyFan]

That was an INSANE performance by Lebron James. 40, 18 and 9 on 50%+ shooting, playing PG/PF much of the time, and facing mostly doubleteams.

He gets a lot of hate, but people tend to conveniently forget how many great games like this he's had.

Just an incredible performance, even for the game's best player.

On a side note, it's hard to watch Shane play right now. He has lost a step on defense, not to mention some of the Pacers are bad matchups for him. And on offense, he has lost his confidence in his shot and isn't contributing anything at all on that end.

[Wander]

Haslem filled a Bosh-ish role today. If he can continue to do that, I think the Heat will be just fine, but if not, Miami just has one too few pieces.

[Starter]

They needed a superhuman effort from James and a very, very good game from Wade. If this is how hard this has to be, they just don't have it.

[moonpie23]

yeah, as soon as i posted that, the heat blew up and charged back.......good for them...

[NM Duke Fan]

This is about the best article I've seen on the Spurs and their playoff run:

"It's difficult to praise the Spurs without touching on the particulars of their game between the lines. There are few pyrotechnics because they're not the quickest or most athletic group. The Spurs big men are nailed to the floor, but play virtually mistake-free ball. On the rare occasions the Spurs do err, you'll know it from venom spewing forth from Popovich off the bench. But overall, this is a team that's hyper-aware of spacing, rarely out of defensive position, and consistently willing to give up a decent look for a squeaky clean one."

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/ArnovitzSpurs-120521/nba-playoffs-spurs-sweep-ahead-18th-straight-win

[Turk]

Only made it as far as halftime last night for Clips-Spurs, but as I was dozing off Charles was in fine "grumpy old man" form on the show with Kenny and EJ. The Chuckwagon is apparently not a fan of San Antonio (the town, not the team). "The main attraction in San Antonio is a place where everyone got killed. And that's not a river, that's a dirty little creek going through the middle of town." Charles and Shaq were also joking about needing to buy a cowboy suit. "The good news is you can wear the same clothes in San Antonio and OKC." From a nightlife standpoint, I suppose I'd prefer a Clips / Lakers conf final compared to Spurs / OKC also... (from a basketball standpoint, that can wait until the Clips fill in the missing piecers and the Lakers blow it all up and rebuild).

[pfrduke]

That was an INSANE performance by Lebron James. 40, 18 and 9 on 50%+ shooting, playing PG/PF much of the time, and facing mostly doubleteams.

He gets a lot of hate, but people tend to conveniently forget how many great games like this he's had.

There's a little bit of fun with statistics in this, but this (40 or more points, 18 or more rebounds, 9 or more assists) hasn't happened in playoff game since 1961 (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/43251/james%E2%80%99-box-score-gem-powers-heat) (Elgin Baylor) and does not appear to have happened at all (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&game_num_type=team&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=40&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=18&c3stat=ast&c3comp=gt&c3val=9&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=date_game)in an NBA game (regular season or playoffs) since at least 1985.

[elvis14]

That was an INSANE performance by Lebron James. 40, 18 and 9 on 50%+ shooting, playing PG/PF much of the time, and facing mostly doubleteams.

He gets a lot of hate, but people tend to conveniently forget how many great games like this he's had.

Believe me, Sportscenter and Nike have no intention of letting anyone conveniently forget how super wonderful Labron is on the court. He kicked butt last night. You'll hear about it time and time again if you watch ESPN (aka "The Heat's Big 3 Network").

[g-money]

Believe me, Sportscenter and Nike have no intention of letting anyone conveniently forget how super wonderful Labron is on the court. He kicked butt last night. You'll hear about it time and time again if you watch ESPN (aka "The Heat's Big 3 Network").

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I find myself getting on the Heat bandwagon. The three things that triggered this are:

1) The SI piece on Lebron several weeks ago really showed his human side. He's still got issues, but last season's debacle clearly humbled him.
2) Years of Duke Hate have made me sympathetic to the plights of other "evil" teams in the sports world.
3) Weirdly, I find myself rooting for all the NBA players that will be playing for Coach K this summer. If Lebron's confidence is intact when the games start, it could go a long way towards a gold medal for the US.

With respect to the Heat, I agree with Starter that their margin for error looks to be close to zero against a very understated Pacers team. To me it's really up to the Heat's supporting cast to step up (paging Shane Battier...) and give Lebron and Wade some viable options.

[theAlaskanBear]

Believe me, Sportscenter and Nike have no intention of letting anyone conveniently forget how super wonderful Labron is on the court. He kicked butt last night. You'll hear about it time and time again if you watch ESPN (aka "The Heat's Big 3 Network").

I have to disagree with you. The talking heads on ESPN are the new nattering nabobs of negativity. They revel in disfunction and drama and tearing down what they have built up. Let's have 10 segments each SportsCenter on his problems. They are the main proponents of LeBron is not clutch myth.

Yeah LeBron made some mistakes and yeah a lot of fans hated his hubris when he first went to Miami...but the very conditions that created the hype and the James/Bosh/Wade event are essentially the bread of butter of ESPNs over-sensationalized increasingly tabloid sports coverage.

Btw, does it drive anyone else nuts that ESPN has started reporting Twitter statements as news segments like there is actually reporting going on? How about instead of televising a twitter comment, you get a reporter to INTERVIEW or talk to that person rather than showing on screen 140-characters of largely contentless news.

[pfrduke]

This is only tangentially playoff-related, but it's an interesting article about gait changes helping reduce Bynum's risk of injury.

http://theclassical.org/articles/in-the-running

Basically, it reminded me of the things greybeard says on here all the time (and like those things, I barely understood the words that Gary Vitti was using to describe the changes to Bynum's running style).

[hq2]

They needed a superhuman effort from James and a very, very good game from Wade. If this is how hard this has to be, they just don't have it.

They're playing 2 on 5. In the end, I don't think it will be enough.

[muzikfrk75]

Celtics finally woke up in the 3rd and beat the Hawks tonight.

Close Lakers/Thunder game right now. Kobe has turned back the clock and looked fantastic, 30 points and 4 dunks in the first 3 quarters.

[moonpie23]

76'rs?

[miltk]

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I find myself getting on the Heat bandwagon. The three things that triggered this are:

1) The SI piece on Lebron several weeks ago really showed his human side. He's still got issues, but last season's debacle clearly humbled him.
2) Years of Duke Hate have made me sympathetic to the plights of other "evil" teams in the sports world.
3) Weirdly, I find myself rooting for all the NBA players that will be playing for Coach K this summer. If Lebron's confidence is intact when the games start, it could go a long way towards a gold medal for the US.

With respect to the Heat, I agree with Starter that their margin for error looks to be close to zero against a very understated Pacers team. To me it's really up to the Heat's supporting cast to step up (paging Shane Battier...) and give Lebron and Wade some viable options.

lebron's not a bad guy. i cannot say the same, however, for wade, who is my new favorite villain. A guy who feels entitled and worthy of a sympathy call if things don't go his way.

oh and btw, he tends to physically take things out on others when he feels wronged.

[theAlaskanBear]

lebron's not a bad guy. i cannot say the same, however, for wade, who is my new favorite villain. A guy who feels entitled and worthy of a sympathy call if things don't go his way.

oh and btw, he tends to physically take things out on others when he feels wronged.

Yeah, Wade has had a few on-court incidents this year that might have gotten other players tossed or at least T'd up. Chief in my mind is the shove on Rip Hamilton, the incident at the all-star game, and then the blocking/tackle/charge in game two against the Pacers (or maybe it was vs the Knicks?) was it?

[CDu]

Yeah, Wade has had a few on-court incidents this year that might have gotten other players tossed or at least T'd up. Chief in my mind is the shove on Rip Hamilton, the incident at the all-star game, and then the blocking/tackle/charge in game two against the Pacers (or maybe it was vs the Knicks?) was it?

Yeah, Wade has become thoroughly unlikeable. Since day 1 after the Heatles intro party, he's handled the villain role the worst. He's complained to the media about how everyone wants them to lose, he's been chippy on the court, and he's whined for fouls on every possession. He made fun of Dirk's illness in the Finals last year. And he's had a number of incidents this year. He's just been a punk for the last two years.

It's funny because for a long time Wade was made of teflon. He could do no wrong in leading the Heat to a title and then carrying some bad Heat teams. He knew how to be the lovable superstar. But he hasn't handled the transition to villain at all well. I won't be sad if/when they lose again this year because of that.

[theAlaskanBear]

Battier is having a breakout night -- hits two 3s to start the game, is now 3/3 from 3 with 9 points AND he broke up a 3vBattier fast-break with solid D (and help from a bad pass from Indy). 4 minutes left in the 1st.

Edit: Hansbrough enters the game and the holding/grabbing goes up by a factor of 9(F).

[theAlaskanBear]

Hansbrough just popped Wade in the head on a clear flagrant. Wade is bleeding from the head.

[pfrduke]

Hansbrough just popped Wade in the head on a clear flagrant. Wade is bleeding from the head.

And Udonis returned the favor. Getting a bit chippy in Miami.

[theAlaskanBear]

And Udonis returned the favor. Getting a bit chippy in Miami.

It will be an interesting second half. Indiana is hanging in there despite being out-played.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Hansbrough just popped Wade in the head on a clear flagrant. Wade is bleeding from the head.

Only he was more blatant about it and less effective. Tarsqueel fans are officially no longer allowed to whine about that play.

[CDu]

It will be an interesting second half. Indiana is hanging in there despite being out-played.

It'll only be interesting if Granger can return and be effective (he sprained his ankle late in the second quarter). If not, the Pacers don't have the offensive firepower to threaten the Heat.

The Pacers just looked awful late in the first half. Battier simply fronted David West each time West tried to set a high screen, and Indiana didn't even attempt to go to a plan B. At the NBA level you have to expect teams to be able to take away plan A. If you can't run your plan B play, you're in trouble. And that's how Indiana quickly faded to down 9 after spending most of the game within 3-5 points.

[CDu]

Granger limps off the court early in the third quarter after reaggravating the ankle injury he suffered late in the first half. I will be very surprised if Indiana is able to mount a comeback without Granger. He's their best offensive player and the only one even remotely capable of slowing down James on the other end.

It's looking very much like a Celtics/Heat Conference Final. The Heat better hope Bosh is ready by then. Despite their seeds, Boston (with Garnett resurgent) is better than the Pacers.

[moonpie23]

lots of talk on mike and mike this morning about the hansblah/hasslem confrontation....who will be suspended (if any)....the pittman foul should surely draw a multiple game suspension.....


gonna be extra chippy in game 6

[jdj4duke]

And Udonis returned the favor. Getting a bit chippy in Miami.

Just caught the quick recap on ESPN Highlight Express or whatever it is; opened with a long 3 by Battier, followed by Psycho Traveler getting clobbered (although it resulted in a flagrant foul). Call me petty (and I am certainly not wishing injury to anyone) but there it was not unpleasant about seeing old Tyler put his head down, start to bull his way to the basket, and then finding himself polishing the floor. Of course followed by him jumping up with his lip-extended pouty face on and acting like his next move was going to be a thrown punch.


After our Tyler clocked Wade, I am surprised a T wasn't called on Dahntay Jones.

[CajunDevil]

If LeBron and D-Wade play like they have the past two games then the Heat should dispatch the Celts.

[elvis14]

Just caught the quick recap on ESPN Highlight Express or whatever it is; opened with a long 3 by Battier, followed by Psycho Traveler getting clobbered (although it resulted in a flagrant foul). Call me petty (and I am certainly not wishing injury to anyone) but there it was not unpleasant about seeing old Tyler put his head down, start to bull his way to the basket, and then finding himself polishing the floor. Of course followed by him jumping up with his lip-extended pouty face on and acting like his next move was going to be a thrown punch.


After our Tyler clocked Wade, I am surprised a T wasn't called on Dahntay Jones.


Gerald Henderson has been suspended for the first 2 games of next season following the HansPutz foul on DWade :D:p

[hq2]

If LeBron and D-Wade play like they have the past two games then the Heat should dispatch the Celts.

Depends on if Avery Bradley comes back in time to guard D-Wade. If he does, Miami will have trouble.
If not, then Ray Allen can't stop him any more, so Miami may win. Still hard to say.

[_Gary]

While Haslem's foul was much more blatant, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Hansborough meant harm to Wade (more than a hard foul to the hand/arm) by the way he not only followed through his hit to get to Wade's face, but to then change his open hand (which would have only been a hard slap) to a curled fingers hand (which got him the results he intended - blood through a nasty scratch/rake). He's a piece of garbage and I wasn't feeling bad at all after Haslem laid his butt out.

[CDu]

Depends on if Avery Bradley comes back in time to guard D-Wade. If he does, Miami will have trouble.
If not, then Ray Allen can't stop him any more, so Miami may win. Still hard to say.

Yeah, the Celtics play much smarter than the Pacers and they play much better defense. But Allen will have trouble with Wade if he has to guard Wade for 35 minutes. Bradley gives them a much different defensive look.

But more importantly, Rondo won't have the same problems initiating offense for the Celtics as the Pacers' PGs have had. The Pacers' offensive ineptitude for long stretches the last two games has led to a lot of transition opportunities for the Heat. The transition game is a game you don't want to play against the Heat, because you'll lose every time. Boston is much better at making it a half court game, and is very good in the half court.

It will be a much different series. I'm not saying the Celtics will win, but I am saying that the Heat won't run over the Celtics like they did the Pacers last night.

[Des Esseintes]

But more importantly, Rondo won't have the same problems initiating offense for the Celtics as the Pacers' PGs have had. The Pacers' offensive ineptitude for long stretches the last two games has led to a lot of transition opportunities for the Heat. The transition game is a game you don't want to play against the Heat, because you'll lose every time. Boston is much better at making it a half court game, and is very good in the half court.


Rondo is markedly better than either of the Indiana point guards. But haven't turnovers--with the obvious exception of injuries--been the Celtics' Achilles heel since this incarnation took shape in '08? And hasn't Rondo been a central culprit on that front? He's excellent in other areas, of course.

We'll see. I think that even without Bosh the Heat have too much, but Boston constantly surprises.

[CDu]

Rondo is markedly better than either of the Indiana point guards. But haven't turnovers--with the obvious exception of injuries--been the Celtics' Achilles heel since this incarnation took shape in '08? And hasn't Rondo been a central culprit on that front? He's excellent in other areas, of course.

We'll see. I think that even without Bosh the Heat have too much, but Boston constantly surprises.

In the regular season, yes. The Celtics were middle of the road in terms of turnovers. In the postseason, though, they've improved by 1.5 turnovers per game. They're 6th in the playoffs (ahead of the heat and Pacers).

Rondo has a high turnover per game rate, but that's in large part because he carries SO much of the offensive burden for the Celtics. In the playoffs he's averaging 13.2 assists, 2.7 steals, and 3.4 turnovers per game. So his A/TO ratio is roughly 4, which is absurd.

[g-money]

While Haslem's foul was much more blatant, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Hansborough meant harm to Wade (more than a hard foul to the hand/arm) by the way he not only followed through his hit to get to Wade's face, but to then change his open hand (which would have only been a hard slap) to a curled fingers hand (which got him the results he intended - blood through a nasty scratch/rake). He's a piece of garbage and I wasn't feeling bad at all after Haslem laid his butt out.

Seconded.

In light of the Henderson foul a few years ago, I'm sure Tar Hole Nation is demanding that "Psycho T" be suspended over this. I mean, fair is only fair, right? :p

[Highlander]

There's a little bit of fun with statistics in this, but this (40 or more points, 18 or more rebounds, 9 or more assists) hasn't happened in playoff game since 1961 (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/43251/james%E2%80%99-box-score-gem-powers-heat) (Elgin Baylor) and does not appear to have happened at all (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&game_num_type=team&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=40&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=18&c3stat=ast&c3comp=gt&c3val=9&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=date_game)in an NBA game (regular season or playoffs) since at least 1985.

True, but Magic Johnson did have a 42 point, 15 rebound, 7 assist game in the NBA finals, which is at least in the ballpark of what James did.

[superdave]

True, but Magic Johnson did have a 42 point, 15 rebound, 7 assist game in the NBA finals, which is at least in the ballpark of what James did.

Call me when Lebron does it in the Finals with the trophy on the line, closing out the game in the process!

[Des Esseintes]

Call me when Lebron does it in the Finals with the trophy on the line, closing out the game in the process!

Yeah, because a conference semifinal game in which you are down 2-1 and minus a max-contract teammate is, like, totally low stakes and stuff.

[muzikfrk75]

Haslem suspended one game, Pittman three games.

[g-money]

Haslem suspended one game, Pittman three games.

And the guy who started the whole thing gets a slap on the wrist. Completely equitable. :confused:

[muzikfrk75]

I'm confused...why is the Celtics-Sixers series going 7 games?

[hq2]

I'm confused...why is the Celtics-Sixers series going 7 games?

Why? Because the Cs are too old to win on the road anymore, that's why. It's why I predicted it would
go 7 at the very beginning; they can't stop young legs in the 4th quarter. They'll somehow or other
get it done at home (I think), but it won't be pretty.

[Turk]

Why? In this case, Sixers guards were able to slash down the middle at will, either getting no resistance or, if help came over, they either still got to the hole or else made an easy dish to the open man. Plus, the original AI was in the house. Celts still got good looks but didn't knock them down or get any rebounds off the misses.

Don't worry; Sixers still have plenty of ability to get killed in Game 7 if they go into ball-hog mode or get sloppy with the ball on offense, or if Thaddeus decides he has absolutely no interest in defense other than trying (and failing) to block shots.

I'm thinking Rondo and the Truth will step up and carry Game 7 for the Celts. KG will chip in something, but unfortunately I think Ray-Ray's too banged up and has nothing left in the tank... None of the Sixers have that sort of ability; if they pull off the upset, they'll have at least 7 guys in double figures.

[CDu]

And the guy who started the whole thing gets a slap on the wrist. Completely equitable. :confused:

I'm not sure why it needs to be equitable. Fr one thing, Hansbrough's foul had nothing to do with Pittman's elbow to Stevenson's throat. That was "retaliation" for Stevenson's choke gesture. Pittman's suspension was absolutely appropriate. As for the Haslem suspension, if you can't distinguish between what Hansbrough did and what Haslem did, then I can't help you. Hansbrough's foul was certainly over the line (which is why it was a flagrant 1 later upgraded to a flagrant 2). Haslem's foul made absolutely no play on the ball and was specifically and clearly intended to be a slap/fist to the face of Hansbrough. It should have been a flagrant 2 and ejection, but the refs blew it. So he got suspended for a game instead.

Hansbrough's foul didn't necessitate the degree to which Haslem went to retaliate. And it had no bearing on the Pittman foul at all. While I can't stand Hansbrough, I think the decisions were absolutely appropriate.

[theAlaskanBear]

I'm not sure why it needs to be equitable. Fr one thing, Hansbrough's foul had nothing to do with Pittman's elbow to Stevenson's throat. That was "retaliation" for Stevenson's choke gesture. Pittman's suspension was absolutely appropriate. As for the Haslem suspension, if you can't distinguish between what Hansbrough did and what Haslem did, then I can't help you. Hansbrough's foul was certainly over the line (which is why it was a flagrant 1 later upgraded to a flagrant 2). Haslem's foul made absolutely no play on the ball and was specifically and clearly intended to be a slap/fist to the face of Hansbrough. It should have been a flagrant 2 and ejection, but the refs blew it. So he got suspended for a game instead.

Hansbrough's foul didn't necessitate the degree to which Haslem went to retaliate. And it had no bearing on the Pittman foul at all. While I can't stand Hansbrough, I think the decisions were absolutely appropriate.

I am in agreement, Haslem and Pittman both deserve the suspensions. I thought that 1 and 3 games are appropriate.

My question is, what is the point of upgrading Hansbrough's foul to a flagrant two if you are not going to give him a 1-game suspension? If it really is a flagrant-2, then he should have been ejected from the game...so now the NBA is saying, Tyler committed a flagrant-2 but will face no punishment...

I just want some consistency. If it is really a flagrant-2 you have to suspend him for 1 game because he wasn't ejected. If it was really a flagrant-1 and you upgraded it to a f-2 just to have an appearance of fairness...then that is ridiculous...

...tbh though you could see this stuff coming. I am not sympathetic to Indiana's cause because they have been trying to play "Punk the Heat" all series, especially Granger.

[_Gary]

I am in agreement, Haslem and Pittman both deserve the suspensions. I thought that 1 and 3 games are appropriate.

My question is, what is the point of upgrading Hansbrough's foul to a flagrant two if you are not going to give him a 1-game suspension? If it really is a flagrant-2, then he should have been ejected from the game...so now the NBA is saying, Tyler committed a flagrant-2 but will face no punishment...

I just want some consistency. If it is really a flagrant-2 you have to suspend him for 1 game because he wasn't ejected. If it was really a flagrant-1 and you upgraded it to a f-2 just to have an appearance of fairness...then that is ridiculous...

...tbh though you could see this stuff coming. I am not sympathetic to Indiana's cause because they have been trying to play "Punk the Heat" all series, especially Granger.


I see both the Hansbrough situation and the overall Pacer punkishness during this series the same way. Well said.

[moonpie23]

any word on granger and west for tonight?

[CDu]

I am in agreement, Haslem and Pittman both deserve the suspensions. I thought that 1 and 3 games are appropriate.

My question is, what is the point of upgrading Hansbrough's foul to a flagrant two if you are not going to give him a 1-game suspension? If it really is a flagrant-2, then he should have been ejected from the game...so now the NBA is saying, Tyler committed a flagrant-2 but will face no punishment...

I just want some consistency. If it is really a flagrant-2 you have to suspend him for 1 game because he wasn't ejected. If it was really a flagrant-1 and you upgraded it to a f-2 just to have an appearance of fairness...then that is ridiculous...

...tbh though you could see this stuff coming. I am not sympathetic to Indiana's cause because they have been trying to play "Punk the Heat" all series, especially Granger.

I think the bolded part is the answer. Hansbrough's foul wasn't a flagrant-2. But I think the league felt uncomfortable not doing "something" more, even though the original call was the correct one. I don't think what Hansbrough did warranted an ejection or suspension. What Haslem did did warrant an ejection/suspension. My guess is that the impact of the change may also have something to do with future penalties. In other words, if Hansbrough gets another flagrant foul, he could be justifiably suspended for longer. I don't know the specifics, but that could be what played into it.

As for the Pacers trying to "punk the Heat," I think some of that is overblown. They've played aggressively, but I think it's actually been the other way around. The Heat have responded to aggressive play with elbows flying. Watch the replays of Granger playing defense on James and see how many times James sharply raises an elbow "accidentally" in response to Granger's contact. Watch Wade's reaction to any solid foul he receives.

I think the Hansbrough foul is the only on-court incident in which the Pacers have crossed the line in this series. The rest has simply been trash talking and physical (but not dirty) play. The Heat have been the ones who've done most of the chippy stuff. Admittedly, their chippiness has been in response to the Pacers' physicality, but chippy play is not the appropriate response to physical play.

[miramar]

The Heat get all the stitches but also all the suspensions. If the ref's had done a better job of controlling the mayhem, then we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

I'm just glad that Hansbrough didn't get a bloody nose when he slammed Wade or Wade would have been kicked out for a game as well.

[Billy Dat]

It is amazing how different the Celtics and Sixers can look game to game. I was thrilled to see Elton put together a solid 34 minute, 13 pts, 10 rebound game. Those stats don't jump out at you, but you really felt his veteran presence, especially in dealing with KG's ridiculous emotive antics. I don't know how the young guys react to KG, but you could sense that Elton was, essentially, laughing off his psycho-bug eyed routine and I think it helped steady the team.

But, not to go overboard on Elton's contribution, Jrue Holiday could not be kept from the lane and the Sixers got really solid play from Iggy, Hawes, Lou Williams, Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen, and could have won by more had they not missed 11 FTs and 8 3s.

FYI...AI, the Answer, we talking bout practice! came out before the game to a raucous ovation...it was really cool.

[Jderf]

As for the Pacers trying to "punk the Heat," I think some of that is overblown. They've played aggressively, but I think it's actually been the other way around. The Heat have responded to aggressive play with elbows flying. Watch the replays of Granger playing defense on James and see how many times James sharply raises an elbow "accidentally" in response to Granger's contact. Watch Wade's reaction to any solid foul he receives.

I think the Hansbrough foul is the only on-court incident in which the Pacers have crossed the line in this series. The rest has simply been trash talking and physical (but not dirty) play. The Heat have been the ones who've done most of the chippy stuff. Admittedly, their chippiness has been in response to the Pacers' physicality, but chippy play is not the appropriate response to physical play.

I agree with you in part, CDu. Certainly, the Heat have upped the ante by consistently responding to the Pacer's physicality. But the line between physical play and chippy play is by no means clear-cut, and both teams are aggressively pushing that boundary. As in any arms race, each side is equally responsible for the escalation.

[CDu]

I agree with you in part, CDu. Certainly, the Heat have upped the ante by consistently responding to the Pacer's physicality. But the line between physical play and chippy play is by no means clear-cut, and both teams are aggressively pushing that boundary. As in any arms race, each side is equally responsible for the escalation.

Oh, I certainly don't think the Pacers are without blame. They know they're the less talented team and they feel (probably correctly) that they have to push the limits of physicality to win the series. And they clearly have instigated plenty throughout the series. But the Heat have typically been the ones escalating matters to well beyond the realm of physical and into dirty/chippy.

Hansbrough's foul started as a typical hard foul and ended up crossing the line into dirty with the rake of the ball and then face of Wade. It was very similar to the Henderson foul on Hansbrough in that there was clear intent to (a) prevent a basket by any means necessary and (b) commit a hard foul; it was also similar in that neither player seemed worried about what they hit when they committed the foul.

I don't think Hansbrough intended to rake Wade across the face (especially not near the eye) just like I don't think Henderson meant to bludgeon Hansbrough's nose. Where I think Hansbrough has a slightly better case than Henderson is that Hansbrough actually makes contact with the ball (he actually tries to rip it from Wade). I think Henderson's foul falls somewhere between Hansbrough's foul and Haslem's foul in terms of dirtiness. Accordingly, I'm somewhat ambivalent as to whether Henderson should have been suspended. I'm not ambivalent about Hansbrough or Haslem; I think both calls were correct.

[g-money]

I'm not sure why it needs to be equitable. Fr one thing, Hansbrough's foul had nothing to do with Pittman's elbow to Stevenson's throat. That was "retaliation" for Stevenson's choke gesture. Pittman's suspension was absolutely appropriate. As for the Haslem suspension, if you can't distinguish between what Hansbrough did and what Haslem did, then I can't help you. Hansbrough's foul was certainly over the line (which is why it was a flagrant 1 later upgraded to a flagrant 2). Haslem's foul made absolutely no play on the ball and was specifically and clearly intended to be a slap/fist to the face of Hansbrough. It should have been a flagrant 2 and ejection, but the refs blew it. So he got suspended for a game instead.

Hansbrough's foul didn't necessitate the degree to which Haslem went to retaliate. And it had no bearing on the Pittman foul at all. While I can't stand Hansbrough, I think the decisions were absolutely appropriate.

Sorry CDu, I guess in my mind the instigator deserves the same punishment as the retaliator. Hence my use of the word equitable. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out. :)

[CDu]

Sorry CDu, I guess in my mind the instigator deserves the same punishment as the retaliator. Hence my use of the word equitable. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out. :)

We'll have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, I don't think Hansbrough's hard foul should be viewed as instigation here. It was a hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty. The appropriate response was another hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty - not an intentional, two-handed shot to the face with no other intent but to hit the face.

Hansbrough got punished for his transgression. Haslem got punished for his transgression. Punishing them equally is, in my opinion, the lazy way out. Also, it just enforces the idea that the "retaliatory" player should go ahead and get his money's worth.

[muzikfrk75]

any word on granger and west for tonight?

West is ready to play tonight. I guess Battier didn't really roll into his knee on purpose as he claimed. *blank stare*

Granger didn't practice yesterday but said he's going to play tonight.

[Jderf]

We'll have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, I don't think Hansbrough's hard foul should be viewed as instigation here. It was a hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty. The appropriate response was another hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty - not an intentional, two-handed shot to the face with no other intent but to hit the face.

Hansbrough got punished for his transgression. Haslem got punished for his transgression. Punishing them equally is, in my opinion, the lazy way out. Also, it just enforces the idea that the "retaliatory" player should go ahead and get his money's worth.

Hmm. This bolded part is probably your strongest point, and I hadn't thought of it before. If we always bluntly punish both the instigator and retaliator equally, it will incentivize a more volatile retaliation. The retaliator will "get his money's worth," as you say, no matter the intensity of the original foul. In other words, it would encourage escalation in all scenarios, even relatively minor flagrant fouls, which is exactly what we don't want.

In any case, I'm personally okay with the decisions as they have been handed down, although if they had decided to suspend Hansbrough, I would not have objected to that either.

[Reilly]

... It was very similar to the Henderson foul on Hansbrough in that there was clear intent to (a) prevent a basket by any means necessary and (b) commit a hard foul ....

CDu, I agree with a whole lot of your point of view on the various fouls in the Heat-Pacers game. I disagree with this bit, however. I believe GHenderson had a clear intent to block Hans' shot with force; I don't believe GHenderson had any intent whatsoever to commit a hard foul. Doofus twisted his body and the extreme force shot block attempt morphed into a hard foul ... but I don't think the hard foul was G's intent, at all.

[g-money]

We'll have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, I don't think Hansbrough's hard foul should be viewed as instigation here. It was a hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty. The appropriate response was another hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty - not an intentional, two-handed shot to the face with no other intent but to hit the face.

Hansbrough got punished for his transgression. Haslem got punished for his transgression. Punishing them equally is, in my opinion, the lazy way out. Also, it just enforces the idea that the "retaliatory" player should go ahead and get his money's worth.

I think this is the root of the disagreement. I thought Hansbrough's play crossed the line, especially given the fact that he drew blood. And we cannot ignore that he targeted one of the best players on the Heat - a clear attempt to intimidate and injure as much as block a shot.

[Wander]

It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out. :)

What if kid 2 smacks kid 1, and kid 1 pulls out a rifle and shoots kid 2 in the face? Should they be punished equally because, hey, he started it?

[niveklaen]

I think this is the root of the disagreement. I thought Hansbrough's play crossed the line, especially given the fact that he drew blood. And we cannot ignore that he targeted one of the best players on the Heat - a clear attempt to intimidate and injure as much as block a shot.

I think this is very important - Hans is a scrub who raked his nails across the face of an All Star in an effort to injure one of the heat's best players. I think the Pacer's coach also made a cruel and calculated decision to leave Hans in the game. In ameture basketball coaches always bench a player who gets called for a flagrant foul because the retaliation is coming and the ameture coach cares about the health of his player. The Pacers coach left Hans in knowing that retaliation was coming because it helps the Pacers more to have a Heat player suspended for retaliating than it hurts to take the risk of a scrub being injured.

[elvis14]

Sorry CDu, I guess in my mind the instigator deserves the same punishment as the retaliator. Hence my use of the word equitable. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out. :)

We also need to remember that this particular instigator is to be hated and vilified at every turn. 9F

[CDu]

I think this is very important - Hans is a scrub who raked his nails across the face of an All Star in an effort to injure one of the heat's best players. I think the Pacer's coach also made a cruel and calculated decision to leave Hans in the game. In ameture basketball coaches always bench a player who gets called for a flagrant foul because the retaliation is coming and the ameture coach cares about the health of his player. The Pacers coach left Hans in knowing that retaliation was coming because it helps the Pacers more to have a Heat player suspended for retaliating than it hurts to take the risk of a scrub being injured.

First, Hansbrough isn't a scrub. He's a key reserve. He's not a star, but he's definitely not a scrub.

Beyond that, I think it's very unlikely that Hansbrough intentionally raked Wade across the face. Considering how hard he swung and how much both he and Wade were moving (with Wade moving away from him), the odds of making good contact are miniscule. Instead, I think he was merely trying to commit an excessively hard foul. Trying to send a message? Absolutely. Trying to injure another player? I don't think so. It's easy to look at slow motion replays and come to the conclusion that Hansbrough had the intent of raking Wade's face. But watching in real time, it's just doesn't seem feasible.

I also don't think Vogel intentionally left Hansbrough out as a sacrificial lamb. For one thing, you'd lose the respect of your team if they felt you were putting them in danger. That just smells too sinister to be true. I think he just felt that Hansbrough's foul was a simple hard foul that accidentally resulted in a cut, and merely didn't have the experience to consider the possibility that the Heat might escalate matters. Remember: this is his first time experiencing serious playoff intensity.

[JasonEvans]

I was struck by how much Hasbro's foul looked exactly like the one Gerald Henderson committed on him a few year back that resulted in calls for the DA to indict Henderson for assault. Had Hasbro's "aim" been a little better and hasd he hit Wade in the nose, there is little question we would have seen the same gushing blood that inspired so much hatred a few miles down the road.

http://www.fayobserver.com/special/2010/12/coachk/images/K-elbow.aspx?width=400&height=590 http://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hansbrough-Flagrant-On-Wade.jpg

That said, I think the punishments were appropriate. If anything, I think Pittman deserved something stronger. He just brutally laid out a totally defenseless guy. Heck, if I knew calling Lebron a choker would bring that kind of retaliation, I would have been far more measured in my assessment of the final games played by the Cavs and Heat over the past 2 seasons ;)

As for Philly and the Celtics, there is little question that the Eastern Conference playoffs have been deeply impacted by untimely injuries. Orlando and Chicago would be completely different teams with the best PG and best C in the NBA able to play. The upshot of their absences is that the Heat would seems to have a fairly clear path to the finals. I expect the aging Celtics (or the still too young Sixers) to be no match for either the Heat or the Pacers in the next round.

Of course, what I am really looking forward to seeing is the Thunder and Spurs, who are pretty clearly the two best teams in the NBA right now... and it does not appear to be all that close.

-Jason "if the Heat get Bosh back at full strength, they could pose a threat in the finals I suppose" Evans