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dukefan1980
04-19-2012, 02:10 PM
I am doing a painting commemorating Coach K's 903rd victory and in the painting are the 9 players that have their numbers retired during Coach's tenure: Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, and Shelden Williams.

The other day I was thinking about which players would start and what role they would play on this super team. This is the starting lineup that I came up with and the roles for the reserves:

Center: Christian Laettner
Power Forward: Shane Battier
Small Forward: Grant Hill
Shooting Guard: Johnny Dawkins
Point Guard: Bobby Hurley

In this fantasy world, I would see Shelden coming in for Laettner, Ferry coming in for either Battier or Grant, Redick backing up Johnny, and JWill splitting time with Hurley.

BlueDevilBrowns
04-19-2012, 02:24 PM
I am doing a painting commemorating Coach K's 903rd victory and in the painting are the 9 players that have their numbers retired during Coach's tenure: Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, and Shelden Williams.

The other day I was thinking about which players would start and what role they would play on this super team. This is the starting lineup that I came up with and the roles for the reserves:

Center: Christian Laettner
Power Forward: Shane Battier
Small Forward: Grant Hill
Shooting Guard: Johnny Dawkins
Point Guard: Bobby Hurley

In this fantasy world, I would see Shelden coming in for Laettner, Ferry coming in for either Battier or Grant, Redick backing up Johnny, and JWill splitting time with Hurley.

If we have to stay with the 9 retired players, I would Have Ferry starting over Battier(more scoring and Battier is the ideal 6th man on this team) and I would SERIOUSLY consider JWill over Hurley, with Hurley getting primary minutes in crunch time, if needed, although with this "super" team, I think they would beat every other "normal" team by 30 points or more.

If possible, I would also consider Elton Brand in place of Sheldon and I would do my best to find a home for Singler, as well ( I would'nt want him to transfer after 1 year for lack of playing time);).

sagegrouse
04-19-2012, 02:29 PM
You have four consensus NPOYs on your list, plus Ferry (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/web-docs/2011-12_Duke-MBB_Tradition--73-108.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200), who was selected by four entities. Using these five players yields --

Laettner - C
Ferry - PF
Battier - SF
Redick - SG
JWill - PG

Looks like a strong team to me.

sagegrouse

ChicagoCrazy84
04-19-2012, 02:31 PM
I am doing a painting commemorating Coach K's 903rd victory and in the painting are the 9 players that have their numbers retired during Coach's tenure: Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, and Shelden Williams.

The other day I was thinking about which players would start and what role they would play on this super team. This is the starting lineup that I came up with and the roles for the reserves:

Center: Christian Laettner
Power Forward: Shane Battier
Small Forward: Grant Hill
Shooting Guard: Johnny Dawkins
Point Guard: Bobby Hurley

In this fantasy world, I would see Shelden coming in for Laettner, Ferry coming in for either Battier or Grant, Redick backing up Johnny, and JWill splitting time with Hurley.


I can't argue with this except for maybe Redick starting in place of Johnny Dawkins. That is a close one though.

BTW, off subject but I had the pleasure of meeting Bobby Hurley in New Orleans (he deserves to be the starting PG in my book) and he said he would be joining the staff at Rhode Island this next year. Excited for him to be back in the college game. Good luck to him at URI.

Chris Randolph
04-19-2012, 02:38 PM
I am doing a painting commemorating Coach K's 903rd victory and in the painting are the 9 players that have their numbers retired during Coach's tenure: Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, and Shelden Williams.

The other day I was thinking about which players would start and what role they would play on this super team. This is the starting lineup that I came up with and the roles for the reserves:

Center: Christian Laettner
Power Forward: Shane Battier
Small Forward: Grant Hill
Shooting Guard: Johnny Dawkins
Point Guard: Bobby Hurley

In this fantasy world, I would see Shelden coming in for Laettner, Ferry coming in for either Battier or Grant, Redick backing up Johnny, and JWill splitting time with Hurley.

I'd go with the same starting lineup. The only change I thought to make would be to start JWill over Hurley but with that particular starting 5 you are better off having more of a "floor general" at point than a scorer. JWill and Redick coming off the bench with instant offense is nasty good.

luvdahops
04-19-2012, 02:45 PM
You have four consensus NPOYs on your list, plus Ferry (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/web-docs/2011-12_Duke-MBB_Tradition--73-108.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200), who was selected by four entities. Using these five players yields --

Laettner - C
Ferry - PF
Battier - SF
Redick - SG
JWill - PG

Looks like a strong team to me.

sagegrouse

Hard to argue for Shane as a starter at SF, a position he barely played in college, especially over Grant, who could literally play anywhere. I would go with:

Laettner
Ferry
Grant
Dawkins
Hurley

with a bench of Brand, Battier, JJ and J-Will

Tappan Zee Devil
04-19-2012, 03:23 PM
Rather these lists are all k era.

There are guys like Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins and Bob Verga from the Bubas era, and Tinkerbell and G-man from the Foster era who need to be considered. And I won't even mention Dick Groat since that was back in the Paleolithic era.


Also - have we already had this discussion - maybe last summer

CDu
04-19-2012, 03:30 PM
Rather these lists are all k era.

There are guys like Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins and Bob Verga from the Bubas era, and Tinkerbell and G-man from the Foster era who need to be considered. And I won't even mention Dick Groat since that was back in the Paleolithic era.


Also - have we already had this discussion - maybe last summer

We have one of these like every summer (or pretty much any time someone approaches a major Duke statistical milestone).

1 24 90
04-19-2012, 03:45 PM
I can't argue with this except for maybe Redick starting in place of Johnny Dawkins. That is a close one though.

BTW, off subject but I had the pleasure of meeting Bobby Hurley in New Orleans (he deserves to be the starting PG in my book) and he said he would be joining the staff at Rhode Island this next year. Excited for him to be back in the college game. Good luck to him at URI.

I'm so jealous that you got to meet my all time favorite Dukie. BTW, Hurley was already back in the college game. He was an assistant to his brother at Wagner and they are both moving on to Rhode Island this coming season.

Bojangles4Eva
04-19-2012, 03:46 PM
Rather than who starts, what about who finishes? Which of those 5 do you want on the court in the last couple minutes of a tight game?

I'd put

5: Laettner (for obvious reasons)
4: Battier (clutch defense)
3: Hill (can create his own shot probably better than anyone on this list)
2: Dawkins (handle and D better than Reddick)
1: Hurley (better FT% than JWill)

JNort
04-19-2012, 04:02 PM
Rather than who starts, what about who finishes? Which of those 5 do you want on the court in the last couple minutes of a tight game?

I'd put

5: Laettner (for obvious reasons)
4: Battier (clutch defense)
3: Hill (can create his own shot probably better than anyone on this list)
2: Dawkins (handle and D better than Reddick)
1: Hurley (better FT% than JWill)



Well it depends on the scenario doesn't it? Are we down 3 or down 2 or down 1? Are we up and need defense and FT shooters?

sduke1986
04-19-2012, 04:08 PM
I feel like you would have to start Dawkins without question. You must take into consideration that Dawkins had a better all around game and was a better defender. I love JJ, but Dawkins scored almost all of his points without a 3 point line. Imagine what his total would have been had he had a 3 point line through the duration of his career. I also think as was previously stated, that you would have to consider some of the guys from the Bubas era.

Indoor66
04-19-2012, 04:16 PM
Rather than who starts, what about who finishes? Which of those 5 do you want on the court in the last couple minutes of a tight game?

I'd put

5: Laettner (for obvious reasons)
4: Battier (clutch defense)
3: Hill (can create his own shot probably better than anyone on this list)
2: Dawkins (handle and D better than Reddick)
1: Hurley (better FT% than JWill)

That group wouldn't have a tight game! :cool:

sduke1986
04-19-2012, 04:52 PM
I was under the impression this was an all time list, that is why i mentioned the Bubas players. I now see it is for the all time Coach K players, so disregard the Bubas comment.

dcdevil2009
04-19-2012, 05:05 PM
This is always a fun discussion to have, especially when there are very few wrong answers. To add another layer to the debate, are we picking players based on their overall careers or their best seasons in a Duke uniform? For example, I'd rather have Brand's sophomore season over any single Ferry season, but would rather have Ferry's two best years than Brand's freshman and sophomore year.

If we taking only their best years, I'd probably go with the following lineup, which I realize doesn't exactly fit neatly into the tradition PG, SG, SF, PF, C lineup:


1 - Bobby Hurley 1992-1993. Comfortable with the ball in his hands and an incredible distributor.
2 - Jay Williams 2001-2002. There's an argument for his 2000-2001 because season it overlaps with the Battier year I'd take. However, this Jay Williams spent more time off the ball than the 2000-2001 version and because I need him to be more of a scorer than distributor with Hurley as the primary ball handler, I took his consensus NPOY season.
3 - Hill 1993-1994. Because I've got a smaller backcourt, I wanted a lot of versatility in the front court, something Grant has in spades.
4 - Battier 2000-2001. As with Grant, Battier's ability to defend and play multiple positions would be huge for this team.
5 - Brand 1998-1999. Brand over Laettner was probably my toughest decision and honestly I could go either way. Ultimately, Brand's athleticism is what swayed me as I don't see this team playing much in the half court. It also might be some unintentional bias in favor of the more recent players that caused me to leave off Laettner.

slower
04-19-2012, 05:25 PM
I know that this is totally not the point of the thread, but give me the following five, roll out the ball and we'll keep it close:

Gminski
Singler
Deng
Nolan
Kyrie

OldPhiKap
04-19-2012, 05:40 PM
JWill -- point
Johnny -- sg
Grant -- f
Shane -- f
Laettner -- C


Limiting myself to players I've seen, not looking at what anyone else has posted, and going with my first instinct before kvetching about finding room for Bobby, Elton, Alarie, JJ, Carlos, Kyrie (oh, what could have been!), etc.

OldPhiKap
04-19-2012, 05:43 PM
Well it depends on the scenario doesn't it? Are we down 3 or down 2 or down 1? Are we up and need defense and FT shooters?

The only time that team would be down is if Lenny Wirtz was calling the game. Even Karl Hess or Teddy Valentine couldn't keep that team down.

Dev11
04-19-2012, 05:57 PM
Laettner
Singler
James
Jones
Hurley

I dare you.

(I, like slower, realize this isn't the point of the thread)

Zeb
04-19-2012, 06:01 PM
C - Laettner - Easiest inclusion on the list.
PF - Brand - Because he was only at Duke 2 years and how 1999 ended, people seem to discount Brand. Battier was an outstanding college basketball player--could defend multiple positions, amazing leader, good outside shot. But Brand was the #1 pick in the draft as a sophomore and was unguardable in the post. If you put Battier or Ferry in here, you are vulnerable to being out muscled inside. Brand gives this team rebounding and low post scoring to complement Laettner's ability to go outside.
SF - G Hill - Possibly the most talented player on the team. A ball handler/playmaker, a lockdown defender who can guard nearly any position, an excellent rebounder.
SG - Dawkins - Best scorer in Duke history. Excellent passer too--4 assist per game career average. Redick was an outstanding SG, and on a team this talented, he would not have to worry about creating his own shot. But while Dawkins is not quite as good a shooter, he is a better defender, and would be better suited to the frenetic pace this team would want.
PG - Hurley - Someone needs to get the ball to these guys, and no one was better at that than Hurley. He was also a tenacious pest defending the other PG. Jason Williams was a better scorer. but we don't need more scoring from the PG position with this crew.

Bench:
Ferry - Could come in for the 3-5 spots, provides even more outside shooting
Battier - Comes in to lock down hottest wing, or could replace Brand if we want to turn up the pace even more
J-Will - Can sub for either guard, possibly best 3-pt shooter on team

This team would play at a very fast pace, it would pass the ball amazingly well (Hurley, Hill, Dawkins, and Ferry were all well above average passers at their positions). The defense would be insane.

The amount of talent that wouldn't even get significant playing time boggles my mind... Redick, Boozer, Dunleavy, Alarie, Deng... it's ridiculous.

NYBri
04-19-2012, 06:52 PM
Jwill has got to start. He was incredible at the point.

I love Nolan's game, but it's a testament to Duke that he isn't even in the convo for coming off the bench.

NYBri
04-19-2012, 06:53 PM
I know that this is totally not the point of the thread, but give me the following five, roll out the ball and we'll keep it close:

Gminski
Singler
Deng
Nolan
Kyrie

Great point. Love to see that game!

Cameron
04-19-2012, 07:00 PM
Point: J-Will -- The most explosive college scorer of the last 20 years and one of the game's most clutch performers ever. Oh, and he won two NPOTY trophies.
SG: J.J. -- In terms of sheer numbers, he was the greatest jump shooter in the history of the sport.
SF: Grant -- The most versatile player in the annals of the program, Grant ranks behind only Michael Jordan and Reggie Miller as the best shooting guard in the NBA during the latter half of the 1990s.
PF: Shane -- Coach K has often called the three-time national defender of the year the best leader K has ever coached.
C: Christian -- Outside of Alcindor and Walton, Laettner is the most decorated NCAA Tournament performer of all-time and its leading career scorer.

That's clout. Though, it certainly is difficult to leave Johnny Dawkins off the list. Without Dawkins, there's a real chance that none of the players above would have even attended Duke. This is obviously not provable, but I don't think it is a crazy assertion by any means.

jv001
04-19-2012, 07:04 PM
Christian-C
Brand-PF
Grant-SF
J. Dawkins-SG
Hurley-PG

Bench:
J.Williams-SG
Kyrie_ PG
JJ- SF
Shane-PF
Shelden-C

I know Kyrie only played 11 games for Duke, but he will always be one of my favorite Blue Devils. GoDuke!

Chris Randolph
04-19-2012, 07:23 PM
C - Patrick Johnson
PF - Love
SF - Melchionni
SG - Pagliuca
PG - Paulus

BobbyFan
04-19-2012, 07:56 PM
If the goal is to put together the best possible team:

PG Hurley
SG Dawkins
SF Hill
PF Brand
C Laettner

With so much talent to play with, I have to put Hurley ahead of J-Williams in order to maximize production. And I love Battier, but a dominant low post threat in Brand allows for perfect spacing on offense.

Dukehky
04-19-2012, 08:19 PM
C Brand
PF Laettner
SF Hill
SG Dawkins
PG Hurley

As far as I'm concerned, Elton Brand is one of the top 3 most dominating forces to ever wear a Duke uniform, and he's starting on any all-time Duke team that I'm fielding. People don't realize or remember how absolutely amazing Dawkins was, and with his scoring/defensive ability, you gotta have Hurley out there to feed everybody the rock, because J-Will wasn't the pure point that Hurley was.

luman50
04-19-2012, 10:03 PM
C - Laettner
PF- Battier
SF- Singler
SG- Reddick
PG- Hurley

slower
04-20-2012, 06:00 AM
Point: J-Will -- The most explosive college scorer of the last 20 years

Kevin Durant might take issue with that statement. Not necessarily rejecting your contention, just saying that it's not unassailable.

JNort
04-20-2012, 08:15 AM
C- Christian
PF- Battier
SF- Grant
SG- Deng
PG- Kyrie

1st guard off bench- JJ
1st big off bench-Shelden

dukeballboy88
04-20-2012, 08:44 AM
One of my deciding factors on who is the top 5, because its to hard to decide, is did they win a championship. Did they provide me with some ammunition in an encounter with a fan of the enemy. This helps me break it down so here it goes...

In my opinion, Hurley, G Hill and Laettner probly should start on an All time NCAA starting 5 so I got to put them. Then I go through and look at the rest of the remaining players that played on championship teams. Then it hits me, J Will might be the best guard to ever play in the ACC so he has to be on it and I got to go with Shane Battier as the 5th starter.

Hurley
J Will
Hill
Battier
Laettner

Bench
Dunleavy
Boozer
Nolan
Singler
Zoubek

CDu
04-20-2012, 09:06 AM
One of my deciding factors on who is the top 5, because its to hard to decide, is did they win a championship. Did they provide me with some ammunition in an encounter with a fan of the enemy. This helps me break it down so here it goes...

In my opinion, Hurley, G Hill and Laettner probly should start on an All time NCAA starting 5 so I got to put them. Then I go through and look at the rest of the remaining players that played on championship teams. Then it hits me, J Will might be the best guard to ever play in the ACC so he has to be on it and I got to go with Shane Battier as the 5th starter.

Hurley
J Will
Hill
Battier
Laettner

Bench
Dunleavy
Boozer
Nolan
Singler
Zoubek

I understand the value of winning a championship, but I think that's an unfair standard. I'd put Dawkins, Reddick, Brand, and some others ahead of Dunleavy and Zoubek (and probably Smith as well). I loved what those two (or three) helped accomplish at Duke, but there are a bunch of guys I'd rather have on my "All Duke" team.

Big Pappa
04-20-2012, 09:31 AM
Point: J-Will -- The most explosive college scorer of the last 20 years and one of the game's most clutch performers ever. Oh, and he won two NPOTY trophies.
SG: J.J. -- In terms of sheer numbers, he was the greatest jump shooter in the history of the sport.
SF: Grant -- The most versatile player in the annals of the program, Grant ranks behind only Michael Jordan and Reggie Miller as the best shooting guard in the NBA during the latter half of the 1990s.
PF: Shane -- Coach K has often called the three-time national defender of the year the best leader K has ever coached.
C: Christian -- Outside of Alcindor and Walton, Laettner is the most decorated NCAA Tournament performer of all-time and its leading career scorer.

That's clout. Though, it certainly is difficult to leave Johnny Dawkins off the list. Without Dawkins, there's a real chance that none of the players above would have even attended Duke. This is obviously not provable, but I don't think it is a crazy assertion by any means.

Probably the best one I've seen on this board. Sure there are arguments for Dawkins and Bobby, but anyone leaving Grant Hill off of their starting five either never saw him play or is a Carolina fan. Grant and J-Will are the most purely talented to ever put on the Duke uniform.

OldPhiKap
04-20-2012, 09:34 AM
Probably the best one I've seen on this board. Sure there are arguments for Dawkins and Bobby, but anyone leaving Grant Hill off of their starting five either never saw him play or is a Caroline fan. Grant and J-Will are the most purely talented to ever put on the Duke uniform.

My only disagreement (nice problem to have, right?) is JJ instead of Johnny. If they had the 3-point shot when Johnny was an upperclassman, he'd have put up even more points. Johnny had a sweet 18 footer, or could drive and jackknife in mid-air. Springs for legs.

Not a knock on JJ, obviously. Johnny was a pure scorer and played some damn good D as well.

superdave
04-20-2012, 09:59 AM
I would love to see how Battier and Laettner would get along in the locker room and on the court. Battier the politician, Laettner the arrogant assassin would be quite the frontcourt.

CDu
04-20-2012, 10:17 AM
Probably the best one I've seen on this board. Sure there are arguments for Dawkins and Bobby, but anyone leaving Grant Hill off of their starting five either never saw him play or is a Caroline fan. Grant and J-Will are the most purely talented to ever put on the Duke uniform.

I'd go with:
Williams
Dawkins
G Hill
Battier
Laettner

And a second 5 of:
Hurley
Redick
Singler
Ferry
Brand

Let's just say that would be a fun scrimmage to watch.

And the following team would have next:
Smith
Scheyer
Dunleavy
Banks
Boozer

And the following guys would be waiting in the wings:
Irving
Rivers
Carrawell
Deng
S Williams

Heck, these guys wouldn't be fun to play, either:
Avery
P Henderson
G Henderson
Alarie
Parks

And as a sixth team?
Duhon
T Hill
Maggette
McLeod
Abdelnaby

I could go further:
Amaker
Langdon
D Henderson
Lang
Mason

And the hits keep rolling:
Snyder
Strickland
Taylor
Thomas
McRoberts

And how crazy that the ninth team in Coach K's 30+ years at Duke could be:
McCaffrey
Ewing
James
Kelly
Zoubek.

And the tenth?
Wojo
Curry
B Davis
Dennard
Bilas

johnb
04-20-2012, 10:33 AM
I think we're biased in favor of the 4 year guys. Aside from Grant Hill, most of our very best basketball players of the K era left after 1, 2, or 3 years. If I had to pick 8 guys in their primes to play a 40" game, you can take any Legends you want, and I'll take only <4 year guys (admittedly, some graduated): Kyrie, Brand, Deng, Boozer, Williams, Maggette, Rivers, and Dunleavy. I'd start Brand and Kyrie certainly, since they are IMHO 2 of Duke's 4 best players of all time (I'd put Dawkins and Hill alongside them). If taking only 5, I'd round out the lineup with Deng, Boozer, and JWill. Brand and Boozer would dominate Laettner and whomever inside, though Brand/Boozer might have some trouble guarding Laettner/Battier/Whomever when they strayed to the 3 point line; in that case, I might need to substitute Dunleavy and use him on the wing alongside Luol, with Elton in the middle. Deng or Dunleavy could play Grant fairly close (this would be the team's talent gap, but my 2 D's have had long NBA careers for a reason), and I'd have to think that Kyrie would blow by Bobby whenever he wanted. J Will is obviously very different than Redick but would do a better job guarding JJ than JJ would covering him--and he could also play Dawkins reasonably close.

flyingdutchdevil
04-20-2012, 11:26 AM
1. Christian is the only consensus thus far (I'm not counting the "intimidation" or alternative lists). Goes to say how the vast majority of us believe he is best Duke player ever.

2. Everyone is saying how good Dawkins's D is. Well, JJ was a phenomenal off-the-ball defender (remember Duke-UNC 2005's final possession in Cameron? All JJ). Had JJ been on this year's team, he easily would have been our best off-the-ball defender.

loldevilz
04-20-2012, 11:56 AM
JJ is the best defender? you must be joking.

Hurley
Smith
Hill
Battier
Laettner

OldPhiKap
04-20-2012, 12:14 PM
Tommy
Billy
Grant
Shane
Sheldon

niveklaen
04-20-2012, 02:33 PM
I would go with the following lineup:

Center - Laettner
PF - Brand - I loved Battier but we saw who was better when they shared the court
SF - Hill
SG - Dawkins - he's what JJ would have been if JJ was also the national defensive player of the year
PG - Kyrie Irving - he broke the pps stat, with dawkins & Hill also very capable distributors you dont need Hurley's passing as much

Bench: JWill & Battier - K prefers a 7 man rotation...

CDu
04-20-2012, 02:50 PM
JJ is the best defender? you must be joking.

Hurley
Smith
Hill
Battier
Laettner

He said Redick would have been the best off-ball defender on this year's team. And I don't think that's a ridiculous thing to suggest, as this team wasn't exactly a standout defensively. Redick was a very smart off-ball defender. He might or might not have been better than Thornton is at off-ball defense, but he was better than the rest of our guys at it.

RPS
04-20-2012, 04:08 PM
For me, this is fairly easy. The greatest player in Duke history is either Christian Laettner of Grant Hill. Bobby Hurley is perhaps the best all-time collegiate point guard. Johnny Dawkins is the only Duke player I've seen who can rivel Grant for talent. The last starter is my only tough call. I'd go with Danny Ferry only because I love Shane Battier coming off the bench. Jason Williams is obviously terrific, but more of a scorer and not nearly the PG that Bobby was (I'm guessing that most of those who left Bobby out skew young).

He didn't play for Coach K and is thus not eligible per the OP, but Mike Gminski was Duke's greatest true center (and was great player even as a just-turned -- in August -- 17 year-old freshman). If we're looking at pre-K players, Heyman, Marin, Groat and Banks need to get some run.

And I always want to honor Terry Chili.

The Gordog
04-20-2012, 04:38 PM
I am doing a painting commemorating Coach K's 903rd victory and in the painting are the 9 players that have their numbers retired during Coach's tenure: Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, and Shelden Williams.

The other day I was thinking about which players would start and what role they would play on this super team. This is the starting lineup that I came up with and the roles for the reserves:

Center: Christian Laettner
Power Forward: Shane Battier
Small Forward: Grant Hill
Shooting Guard: Johnny Dawkins
Point Guard: Bobby Hurley

In this fantasy world, I would see Shelden coming in for Laettner, Ferry coming in for either Battier or Grant, Redick backing up Johnny, and JWill splitting time with Hurley.

With all this firepower, I think you need a distributor at PG, so I would go:

PG: Hurley
SG: JWill
SF: Grant
PF: Shane
C: Laettner

JJ, Dawkins, Ferry, Shelden make up the bench.

I can see the arguments for Elton, Kyle, etc. And if you go back pre-K you have to put Heyman in your top 10, maybe top 5. the guy was NPOY and scored in bunches without the benefit of the 3-pt. line. He was clutch and tough from what I have read.

If you are making up a virtual team, you really have to think about who backs up Grant and Shane. How was Tinkerbell on D? I think K (and I) would call Singler's number in that situation.

johnb
04-20-2012, 04:44 PM
Tommy
Billy
Grant
Shane
Shelden

Great defenders, obviously, but if I were going for an all offensive team, Elton, Kyrie, JJ, J Will (or Laettner), and Johnny Dawkins would score a lot of points against them.

RPS
04-20-2012, 04:53 PM
If you are making up a virtual team, you really have to think about who backs up Grant and Shane. How was Tinkerbell on D? I think K (and I) would call Singler's number in that situation.
As was often the case with Tink -- as good as he wanted to be. And he actually played for K as a senior (1980-81).

OldPhiKap
04-20-2012, 05:26 PM
Great defenders, obviously, but if I were going for an all offensive team, Elton, Kyrie, JJ, J Will (or Laettner), and Johnny Dawkins would score a lot of points against them.

Would be a hell of a game, eh?

I know that Shane won multiple Defensive POY (IIRC) but for my money, Tommy and Billy could shut down about anyone. What a match-up against JD and JWill!

Of course, I see you're going with a four guard set -- how are you going to develop bigs? ;>)

MChambers
04-20-2012, 05:37 PM
You could come up with a very good team, just based on broken feet:

Brand
Boozer
GHill
Irving

Still looking for the fifth starter here.

luvdahops
04-20-2012, 05:43 PM
You could come up with a very good team, just based on broken feet:

Brand
Boozer
GHill
Irving

Still looking for the fifth starter here.

Didn't Hurley injure his foot in the loss at Chapel Hill in 1992? Grant then stepped in at the point and Lang as a starter for [6-7] games.

AZLA
04-20-2012, 05:50 PM
Center: Eric Boatang
Power Forward: Olek Czyz
Small Forward: Mike Gbinije
Shooting Guard: Taylor King
Point Guard: Billy McCaffrey

RPS
04-20-2012, 06:21 PM
Billy could shut down about anyone.
I was at the Meadowlands Arena for the 1988 Elite Eight game against Temple when Billy held the wonderful freshman phenom Mark Macon to 13 points on 6-of-29 shooting (that's not a typo). Macon was a right-sided player, but Billy overplayed him to force him right as he (and the staff) had seen that Macon preferred shooting after a dribble left. That was as good a defensive performance as I have ever seen for Duke.

Edited to add this link, which supports my memory and provides some additional detail: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24141

OldPhiKap
04-20-2012, 06:47 PM
I was at the Meadowlands Arena for the 1988 Elite Eight game against Temple when Billy held the wonderful freshman phenom Mark Macon to 13 points on 6-of-29 shooting (that's not a typo). Macon was a right-sided player, but Billy overplayed him to force him right as he (and the staff) had seen that Macon preferred shooting after a dribble left. That was as good a defensive performance as I have ever seen for Duke.

Edited to add this link, which supports my memory and provides some additional detail: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24141

That was beach week, a big group of us watched from a condo in N. Myrtle. Man, what a night.

Somewhere, I still have a video of Bill Cosby wearing a Duke sweatshirt due to the bet he lost.

Heh.

CDu
04-20-2012, 07:14 PM
Center: Eric Boatang
Power Forward: Olek Czyz
Small Forward: Mike Gbinije
Shooting Guard: Taylor King
Point Guard: Billy McCaffrey

Elliot Williams is a better fit in your scenario than Taylor King (who was a PF).

Dukehky
04-20-2012, 11:08 PM
I love Kyle Singer. He was a great player, but he doesn't belong in this conversation. Grant Hill was the best 3, period. And if you have to have a stretch 4 who can defend and rebound, then Battier. I feel like Kyle gets a look because of the "what have you done for me lately?" and the answer is a lot, but he's not in this league.

C Brand
PF Laettner
SF Hill
SG Dawkins (he would have scored soooooooooooo many more points with a 3 point line)
PG Hurley (Assist record... come on, he's getting the start)

RPS
04-23-2012, 06:02 PM
Somewhere, I still have a video of Bill Cosby wearing a Duke sweatshirt due to the bet he lost.

Heh.
...on The Cosby Show, then the #1 show on television.

johnb
04-23-2012, 06:08 PM
I was at the Meadowlands Arena for the 1988 Elite Eight game against Temple when Billy held the wonderful freshman phenom Mark Macon to 13 points on 6-of-29 shooting (that's not a typo). Macon was a right-sided player, but Billy overplayed him to force him right as he (and the staff) had seen that Macon preferred shooting after a dribble left. That was as good a defensive performance as I have ever seen for Duke.

Edited to add this link, which supports my memory and provides some additional detail: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24141

I was there, too, and as I recall, they were a fearsome team and Macon a fearsome talent. Somewhat reminiscent of Georgetown with Mourning and UNLV with their NBA players. Ah, back in the days when we were occasionally the underdog.

RPS
04-24-2012, 12:41 AM
I was there, too, and as I recall, they were a fearsome team and Macon a fearsome talent. Somewhat reminiscent of Georgetown with Mourning and UNLV with their NBA players. Ah, back in the days when we were occasionally the underdog.
Yup. Temple was something like 31-1 and -- I think -- the #1 team in the country.

BlueandWhite
04-24-2012, 11:22 AM
Yup. Temple was something like 31-1 and -- I think -- the #1 team in the country.

I was also at the Meadowlands for that game - I think it was one of Duke's greatest regional final wins that wasn't the 1992 Kentucky game, maybe the next best after the UK game. Lest we forget, Billy King was one of Duke's greatest defensive players ever, particularly his senior year.

CameronBornAndBred
04-24-2012, 01:06 PM
That's got to be one of the hardest questions to answer and of course one that will never get a general consensus. Looking forward to the final product though. Curious to see how you'll treat it, it would be fun to see your "starting five" playing in front of the bench of "reserves", with K standing and some of the past HC's as the "assistants" to his side.

The Gordog
04-24-2012, 01:11 PM
With all this firepower, I think you need a distributor at PG, so I would go:

PG: Hurley
SG: JWill
SF: Grant
PF: Shane
C: Laettner

JJ, Dawkins, Ferry, Shelden make up the bench.

I can see the arguments for Elton, Kyle, etc. And if you go back pre-K you have to put Heyman in your top 10, maybe top 5. the guy was NPOY and scored in bunches without the benefit of the 3-pt. line. He was clutch and tough from what I have read.

If you are making up a virtual team, you really have to think about who backs up Grant and Shane. How was Tinkerbell on D? I think K (and I) would call Singler's number in that situation.


I love Kyle Singer. He was a great player, but he doesn't belong in this conversation. Grant Hill was the best 3, period. And if you have to have a stretch 4 who can defend and rebound, then Battier. I feel like Kyle gets a look because of the "what have you done for me lately?" and the answer is a lot, but he's not in this league.

C Brand
PF Laettner
SF Hill
SG Dawkins (he would have scored soooooooooooo many more points with a 3 point line)
PG Hurley (Assist record... come on, he's getting the start)

It's true, he's not in the league with your starting 5, but none of what you wrote does anything to refute my point. You offer Grant and Shane, as better than Kyle, but I already have both of them as starters on my team. The conversation has evolved to include backups, and I believe Kyle does belong in that conversation on the basis of the following numbers:

2,392 points (4th All-Time)
367 3-pt. FG (5th All-Time)
1,015 rebounds (6th All-Time)
293 assists
107 blocks
497 Free Throws made (10th All-Time)
54 Charges taken (4th All-Time)
168 steals

And Kyle was a pretty great defender as well.

gus
04-24-2012, 01:54 PM
PG: Bobby Hurley
SG: Johnny Dawkins
SF: Grant Hill
PF: Christian Laettner
C: Elton Brand

JWill was a fantastic player but Hurley is simply the best point guard in NCAA history. Don't mean to break out the crotchedy (sort of) old timer here, but people discounting Hurley must never have seen him play.

Zeb
04-24-2012, 02:49 PM
It's true, he's not in the league with your starting 5, but none of what you wrote does anything to refute my point. You offer Grant and Shane, as better than Kyle, but I already have both of them as starters on my team. The conversation has evolved to include backups, and I believe Kyle does belong in that conversation on the basis of the following numbers:

2,392 points (4th All-Time)
367 3-pt. FG (5th All-Time)
1,015 rebounds (6th All-Time)
293 assists
107 blocks
497 Free Throws made (10th All-Time)
54 Charges taken (4th All-Time)
168 steals

And Kyle was a pretty great defender as well.

I think comparing career stats of recent players to those who played 20-30 years ago is a very weak argument. In the one and done era, guys who put up big career numbers are usually very good as freshmen but never good enough to have a high draft position so they end up staying four years. Singler and Redick are good examples, as is Hansborough at UNC. Great players no doubt, but not NBA all-stars. Compare that to the 80's when lottery pick talent routinely stayed 3-4 years and played against other teams with similar talent. You faced more difficult competition both to get playing time and to win games. Think Grant Hill or Laettner would have different career stats if they started playing 4 years of college ball right now? They would rewrite the record books. Of course they would never play for 4 years, which is another reason career numbers are deceiving... Singler's totals benefit from the early departure of a host of players with superior talent.

Please don't see this as a knock on Singler. I loved the guy and he was a warrior for us. But if we're putting our GM hat on and picking Coch K's best team, Kyle probably does not even make the roster. (G Hill and Battier are better SF picks as you already acknowledge, and I'd say few GMs would pick Singler over Deng. Dunleavy and Maggette are both lottery picks who are arguably better, though I'd take Singler over Maggette just for chemistry.)

em0526
04-25-2012, 09:59 AM
Imagine a fantasy game where we matched up the following. Either way, Duke wins.

Seniors
PG - Hurley
SG - Dawkins
SF - Hill
PF - Battier
C - Laettner

Bench: Redick, Singler, Ferry

Early Entrants
PG - Irving
SG - J. Williams
SF - Maggette
PF - Deng
C - Brand

Bench: Dunleavy, Boozer, Rivers

The Gordog
04-25-2012, 01:11 PM
I think comparing career stats of recent players to those who played 20-30 years ago is a very weak argument. In the one and done era, guys who put up big career numbers are usually very good as freshmen but never good enough to have a high draft position so they end up staying four years. Singler and Redick are good examples, as is Hansborough at UNC. Great players no doubt, but not NBA all-stars. Compare that to the 80's when lottery pick talent routinely stayed 3-4 years and played against other teams with similar talent. You faced more difficult competition both to get playing time and to win games. Think Grant Hill or Laettner would have different career stats if they started playing 4 years of college ball right now? They would rewrite the record books. Of course they would never play for 4 years, which is another reason career numbers are deceiving... Singler's totals benefit from the early departure of a host of players with superior talent.

Please don't see this as a knock on Singler. I loved the guy and he was a warrior for us. But if we're putting our GM hat on and picking Coch K's best team, Kyle probably does not even make the roster. (G Hill and Battier are better SF picks as you already acknowledge, and I'd say few GMs would pick Singler over Deng. Dunleavy and Maggette are both lottery picks who are arguably better, though I'd take Singler over Maggette just for chemistry.)

Well, this time you made an argument, so that's some improvement. But I find your assertion that the competition is weaker due to early enty somewhat lacking.

1. 80's and early 90's players were generally much weaker than the players of today who come in to college with years of serious weight training already under their belts.
2. While it's true that more guys leave early it's also true that the depth of talent is far greater and matures far earlier.

Once again, we are talking about who backs up Grant and Shane, so saying they are better than Kyle is not germane to the question. Now I think you can make an argument for Deng, but I think it's easy to look at the player he is now and think he was so great in college. He was very good for sure, All-ACC IIRC. Let's not be like Carolina fans who think that MJ is the greatest to ever play the college game based on the penumbra of his NBA rings. I would argue that for this discussion you have to consider how good the player was in their best year at Duke. Honestly I don't give a rat's patootie who GMs would pick, that's NBA, drafting on potential, etc. and has nothing to do with who was the best at Duke.

If you think Deng or Dunleavy were better than Singler on the day they left school, then make the argument, but seriously, if there is anybody who doesn't belong in the discussion (to paraphrase your characterization of Kyle) it is Maggette. The guy did not start on a team that lost in the big game. Kyle Singler was NCAA Champs MOP. Nobody cares how good Maggette is or is not in the NBA or what his potential was when he left.

gus
04-25-2012, 02:02 PM
1. 80's and early 90's players were generally much weaker than the players of today who come in to college with years of serious weight training already under their belts.

I'm not sure I buy the assertion that 80s and 90s era players were "generally much weaker".

CDu
04-25-2012, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure I buy the assertion that 80s and 90s era players were "generally much weaker".

I think you should buy it. Take a look at the bodies on the guys from the mid-80s compared to today. It's not even close. The emergence of strength training beginning in the early-90s has changed the landscape of the game.

gus
04-25-2012, 04:47 PM
I think you should buy it. Take a look at the bodies on the guys from the mid-80s compared to today. It's not even close. The emergence of strength training beginning in the early-90s has changed the landscape of the game.

It's the "much" i'm contesting. Conditioning has certainly improved, but it's not like mens vs boys.

Here are some easy examples:
1995: Harold Deane http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/020210aab.html
1974: UCLA vs NC State: http://clholoman.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/heres-the-lighter-note/attachment/70428/
1974: NC State vs UMD: http://clholoman.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/david-thompson1.jpg

I'm not going to spend more time looking up old photos. I think people tend to have a bias towards the current era.

CDu
04-25-2012, 05:00 PM
It's the "much" i'm contesting. Conditioning has certainly improved, but it's not like mens vs boys.

Here are some easy examples:
1995: Harold Deane http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/020210aab.html
1974: UCLA vs NC State: http://clholoman.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/heres-the-lighter-note/attachment/70428/
1974: NC State vs UMD: http://clholoman.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/david-thompson1.jpg

I'm not going to spend more time looking up old photos. I think people tend to have a bias towards the current era.

I think those examples pretty clearly illustrate the differences in size and strength. Those guys look really skinny. They are certainly shredded, but that is leanness and not muscle mass. I'd venture that the average college player is probably 10-15 lbs heavier (if not more) today than they were 20-30 years ago, and that's largely a function of weight training.

phaedrus
04-25-2012, 05:23 PM
I think those examples pretty clearly illustrate the differences in size and strength. Those guys look really skinny. They are certainly shredded, but that is leanness and not muscle mass. I'd venture that the average college player is probably 10-15 lbs heavier (if not more) today than they were 20-30 years ago, and that's largely a function of weight training.

Yup.

http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/predraft_inside_080530.gif

http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-201001/3a8156321f981052890d307bf349c09c.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSK8QScHDUIlgjYsZVF_M_-hENOFCu8BkxZA01SaSu9qfS8L9endzA2u-Ou3Q