CJ Leslie Returns to Wolfpack

[Slackerb]

Gopack.com reporting that CJ Leslie will return to NCSU.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-04-18/cj-leslies-return-makes-nc-state-an-acc-favorite

[Kedsy]

Good for State. And for the ACC. I'm looking forward to some stiff ACC competition next season.

[MCFinARL]

So do we think this is likely to send Amile Jefferson to Duke, or does he still have Calipari whispering in his ear?

And I agree--good for State, good for the ACC, and most likely the best thing for C. J. Leslie as well.

[mkline09]

The only thing that can stop NC State with Leslie back now is Karl Hess and John Henson and Henson is gone. :D

[pfrduke]

Good for State. And for the ACC. I'm looking forward to some stiff ACC competition next season.

And good for CJ Leslie. In many ways, he has a chance to be the face of the ACC next year. It would not surprise me at all if he's the pre-season player of the year, and he'll get a lot of publicity as leading a potential NC State resurgence. He'll get a chance to shine in the spotlight, which could significantly improve his draft prospects for next year.

[Wander]

I'd probably give NCSU a slight edge over Duke now for ACC favorite, but it's close. Should be a fun ACC next year.

[lotusland]

I'd probably give NCSU a slight edge over Duke now for ACC favorite, but it's close. Should be a fun ACC next year.

I'd say the edge goes to Duke with Mason but I'm hardly impartial. I look forward to NCSU becoming relevant enough for me to strongly dislike again but I thought the front page article didn't give much respect to Duke implying that, with Leslie, UNC would be State's only challenger but without him they might fall back to the second tier with Duke (I'm paraphrasing so I don't have to re-read it). Anyway I'd favor Duke with the holes back in the pack competing for third but I guess when you get beat in the first round you can't expect much respect. Maybe it will be good for Duke to be somewhat under the radar at least compared to our usual stature.

[PackMan97]

So do we think this is likely to send Amile Jefferson to Duke, or does he still have Calipari whispering in his ear?


I don't think it changes anything. Both State and Duke had two experienced upperclassmen that will play ahead of Amile. Kelly/Mason for Duke and Fowell/Leslie for State. This has been the case during his entire recruitment. In fact, some might argue this is the advantage both schools have (over Kentucky) in that Jefferson can practice against and play with experienced players while still being able to expect significant playing time.

I think it's really going to come down to which coach and program he prefers. Does he want to be just another cog in the Duke machine, or does he want to be remembered as Gott's first recruiting class and the group that resurrected a program. So, forgotten two years after he leaves Duke, or remembered fondly for the next 30 years :)

[tommy]

I don't think it changes anything. Both State and Duke had two experienced upperclassmen that will play ahead of Amile. Kelly/Mason for Duke and Fowell/Leslie for State. This has been the case during his entire recruitment. In fact, some might argue this is the advantage both schools have (over Kentucky) in that Jefferson can practice against and play with experienced players while still being able to expect significant playing time.

I think it's really going to come down to which coach and program he prefers. Does he want to be just another cog in the Duke machine, or does he want to be remembered as Gott's first recruiting class and the group that resurrected a program. So, forgotten two years after he leaves Duke, or remembered fondly for the next 30 years :)

Jefferson is 6'7" or 6'8" and skinny. He's a small forward who maybe, maybe could bulk up some in a couple of years to play PF. He wouldn't be competing with Ryan Kelly for minutes, in particular as a freshman, and certainly not with 6'10" 245 pound center Mason Plumlee.

On the other hand, Leslie's presence will directly impact the availability of minutes for Jefferson at his natural position, small forward.

[arnie]

I don't think it changes anything. Both State and Duke had two experienced upperclassmen that will play ahead of Amile. Kelly/Mason for Duke and Fowell/Leslie for State. This has been the case during his entire recruitment. In fact, some might argue this is the advantage both schools have (over Kentucky) in that Jefferson can practice against and play with experienced players while still being able to expect significant playing time.

I think it's really going to come down to which coach and program he prefers. Does he want to be just another cog in the Duke machine, or does he want to be remembered as Gott's first recruiting class and the group that resurrected a program. So, forgotten two years after he leaves Duke, or remembered fondly for the next 30 years :)

You mean remembered like Ryan Harrow in the Lowe recruiting class that didn't resurrect a program.

[sagegrouse]

I'd say the edge goes to Duke with Mason but I'm hardly impartial. I look forward to NCSU becoming relevant enough for me to strongly dislike again but I thought the front page article didn't give much respect to Duke implying that, with Leslie, UNC would be State's only challenger but without him they might fall back to the second tier with Duke (I'm paraphrasing so I don't have to re-read it). Anyway I'd favor Duke with the holes back in the pack competing for third but I guess when you get beat in the first round you can't expect much respect. Maybe it will be good for Duke to be somewhat under the radar at least compared to our usual stature.


Well, it was not a DBR Front Page article -- it was an N&O story by Luke DeCock. Here is the relevant section:


With Leslie, N.C. State might be the presumptive ACC favorite, although UNC, with James Michael McAdoo returning to school and Dexter Strickland and Leslie McDonald returning to health, would have something to say about that.

Without Leslie, the Wolfpack falls into the big pack of contenders that also includes Duke, Florida State and Maryland, all of which have survived their own potential professional departures, with the notable exception of Duke guard Austin Rivers.

Now, the "only UNC rivalling State" comment can be explained best by the bias in the North Carolina press, IMHO. UNC is returning players who averaged 28 PPG (losing two-thirds of its scoring from 2012). Duke is returning players averaging 56 PPG, including two players who got All-ACC honors. UNC will get help from its recruiting class -- because it has to. UNC returns only five experienced players, counting the injured McDonald -- six with little-used frosh Desmond Hubert. But, of course, Duke expects to get contributions from Marshall, Murphy and Rasheed as well.

I think we should enjoy being rated in the middle of the pack in the ACC. It will be an unaccustomed luxury.

sagegrouse

[Big Pappa]

I don't think it changes anything. Both State and Duke had two experienced upperclassmen that will play ahead of Amile. Kelly/Mason for Duke and Fowell/Leslie for State. This has been the case during his entire recruitment. In fact, some might argue this is the advantage both schools have (over Kentucky) in that Jefferson can practice against and play with experienced players while still being able to expect significant playing time.


Jefferson is 6'7" or 6'8" and skinny. He's a small forward who maybe, maybe could bulk up some in a couple of years to play PF. He wouldn't be competing with Ryan Kelly for minutes, in particular as a freshman, and certainly not with 6'10" 245 pound center Mason Plumlee.

On the other hand, Leslie's presence will directly impact the availability of minutes for Jefferson at his natural position, small forward.

I agree with Tommy here. I certainly don't see Mason affecting him at all, and there was never any talk of Ryan going anywhere so Amile has known about Ryan being the PF for awhile now. Many media members had billed Amile as Leslie's replacement at State, so I think in Amile's mind CJ's return will affect his decision. I also think that Mike G transferring affects it. With the combination of Mike leaving and CJ staying at State, I feel really good about our chances of landing Amile or Rodney Hood.

[gumbomoop]

Now, the "only UNC rivalling State" comment can be explained best by the bias in the North Carolina press, IMHO. UNC is returning players who averaged 28 PPG (losing two-thirds of its scoring from 2012). Duke is returning players averaging 56 PPG, including two players who got All-ACC honors. UNC will get help from its recruiting class -- [1]because it has to. UNC returns only five experienced players, counting the injured McDonald -- six with little-used frosh Desmond Hubert. But, of course, Duke expects to get contributions from Marshall, Murphy and Rasheed as well.

I think we should enjoy being rated in the [2]middle of the pack in the ACC. It will be an unaccustomed luxury.

[1] Good point. Heels have some talented returnees who should be able to step up, but McAdoo needs real help up front, and real minutes from some combo of inexperienced Hubert and new guys. Anyone who thinks Heels are clearly, as opposed to arguably, pre-#1 in ACC is off-base, and probably thinks my own view - that McAdoo will be a star this season - is understated.

[2] I'll assume "middle" doesn't actually mean ACC pre-#5-7. I'm skeptical we'd have that "luxury," and confident that were Duke to receive such a pre-ranking, EK posters would go nuts, and justifiably so. I suppose, maybe in a long stretch, Duke might by some be pre-ranked #4, behind NCSt, UNC, and Miami. And I do think Miami should get a Thursday bye in ACCT. But if Duke is pre-ranked even as low as #4, I'd have to assume that means the experts want to, prefer to, are secretly delighted to believe Duke will be the team that showed up against Lehigh.

At this moment, with college destinations for TP and AJ still unknown, thinking about talent, experience, and depth, I'd put NCSt #1 in ACC, and give Miami a shot at finishing ahead of UNC. Say, Duke #2, Miami/UNC tied for #3. Subject to unbalanced mess issues.

[CDu]

Jefferson is 6'7" or 6'8" and skinny. He's a small forward who maybe, maybe could bulk up some in a couple of years to play PF. He wouldn't be competing with Ryan Kelly for minutes, in particular as a freshman, and certainly not with 6'10" 245 pound center Mason Plumlee.

On the other hand, Leslie's presence will directly impact the availability of minutes for Jefferson at his natural position, small forward.

Your post doesn't make sense. Leslie plays PF at State, not SF. State's SF last were Wood and Williams, and next year it'll be Wood and Warren. So if your argument is that Jefferson is a SF, then Leslie's decision makes no difference - they play different positions.

I'd argue that Jefferson is a PF in a SF body, not a true SF. As such, he'd be competing with Kelly for minutes, just as he'd be competing for Leslie for minutes. Even though Kelly and Leslie have different body types and very different skill sets, they play the same position.

I don't think Leslie's decision changes anything other than eliminating an advantage that State had over Duke. If Leslie had gone pro, Jefferson would only have been competing with Harris and De Thaey for PF minutes next year.

[JNort]

Your post doesn't make sense. Leslie plays PF at State, not SF. State's SF last were Wood and Williams, and next year it'll be Wood and Warren. So if your argument is that Jefferson is a SF, then Leslie's decision makes no difference - they play different positions.

I'd argue that Jefferson is a PF in a SF body, not a true SF. As such, he'd be competing with Kelly for minutes, just as he'd be competing for Leslie for minutes. Even though Kelly and Leslie have different body types and very different skill sets, they play the same position.

I don't think Leslie's decision changes anything other than eliminating an advantage that State had over Duke. If Leslie had gone pro, Jefferson would only have been competing with Harris and De Thaey for PF minutes next year.

Leslie is a SF that plays PF for State and Amile is a PF and will play PF in college.

[-bdbd]

Well, it was not a DBR Front Page article -- it was an N&O story by Luke DeCock. Here is the relevant section:


Now, the "only UNC rivalling State" comment can be explained best by the bias in the North Carolina press, IMHO. UNC is returning players who averaged 28 PPG (losing two-thirds of its scoring from 2012). Duke is returning players averaging 56 PPG, including two players who got All-ACC honors. UNC will get help from its recruiting class -- because it has to. UNC returns only five experienced players, counting the injured McDonald -- six with little-used frosh Desmond Hubert. But, of course, Duke expects to get contributions from Marshall, Murphy and Rasheed as well.

I think we should enjoy being rated in the middle of the pack in the ACC. It will be an unaccustomed luxury.

sagegrouse

Wow, if that don't just say it all when it comes to NC media bias, and especially at the N&O! NCSU as the only possible challenger to UNC for next year's expectations?? Really?! Just wow! I'd have had UNC maybe 4th for next year, and could see a reasonable argument for 5th.... No doubt that Duke and State are the cream of the crop as things stand.

Way to look at the glass "half full," Sage! But then again, as Daugherty and, by extension, the other Kerlina (NC) media types will argue, if MP2 keeps "regressing" pretty soon he may be a 0/0 for his senior year... HAHAHAHAHA!

As I was saying in the Jefferson recruiting thread, this Leslie news, combined with Silent-G leaving, just has to help Duke in the AJ sweepstakes. He's obviously a kid who will get most of his freshman minutes at the wing (3) and maybe a few minutes going inside. Leslie seems to directly compete with that, whereas MP2 would seem to be a nice compliment for such a style of player. But Gbinije's departure leaves a nice little hole for AJ to step right into on the wing. 'don't see how Leslie staying could do anything but hurt State here (in the AJ recruitment). But if I were a State fan I'd be pretty OK with that tradeoff today.


Regarding Packman's "red meat" post -- "I think it's really going to come down to which coach and program he prefers. Does he want to be just another cog in the Duke machine, or does he want to be remembered as Gott's first recruiting class and the group that resurrected a program" -- the question would be whether GOTT will be rembered in 30 years, like the rest of all the forgettable coaches at State over the last 20-30 years. The pertinent Q for AJ is whether he wants to develop for the next few years under the best coach of all time and play all of his games on national TV and EXPECT to make Final Fours; or be just another bitter state grad/fan baiting refs with obscenities from the stands 20-30 years hence, and no ACC or national championships to show for it. If you think it will "just come down to which coach and program he prefers," as you wishfully state, then try to explain why he's waited to see who would stay and go before making a decision...

[CDu]

Leslie is a SF that plays PF for State and Amile is a PF and will play PF in college.

Leslie is a PF that plays PF at State. Kelly is a PF that plays PF at Duke. Jefferson is a PF that would play PF at State or Duke. The presence of Leslie and Kelly (now that Mason has returned) mean the same thing with regard to Jefferson's playing time next year at either school.

[ThePublisher]

This puts State as #2 in the ACC next year. Lots of bandwagon media folks will put them number 1, but that just isn't right especially loosing Painter.
All the media people saying Duke is in the 'second group' behind state and unc are crazy. Duke 1, state 2, then unc and some others in the 'middle pack'. People place too much emphasis on a last few game slup at the end of the season.
I think Duke is going to surprise a ton of people next year and be stellar. Like top 5, potential national champion stellar. We'll be improved on both offense and defense with less weaknesses than we had last year. It's going to be a good year guys, very good.

Leslie returning should sway Jefferson to Duke (esp w/ Gbinije leaving) if he is looking at playing time. If he is looking for someone to mold himself after for a year then step in for... well, Leslie is hard to be as far as that goes. He seems like he has a little bit of State and Duke in him to me. So who knows.

[Big Pappa]

Leslie is a PF that plays PF at State. Kelly is a PF that plays PF at Duke. Jefferson is a PF that would play PF at State or Duke. The presence of Leslie and Kelly (now that Mason has returned) mean the same thing with regard to Jefferson's playing time next year at either school.

I disagree. Because of their height and weight, Leslie (6'8" 209) and Amile (6'7" 190) are much more of SF/PF tweeners. The starting PFs on the top 5 ACC teams last year (not including State) were Henson (6'11" 220), Kelly (6'11" 230), James (6'10" 240), Scott (6'8" 237), and Kadji (6'11" 251). All significantly bigger than Leslie and Amile.

They are both SF/PF tweeners and could play either position. Amile would most likely see time at SF and PF at either school.

[tommy]

Leslie is a SF that plays PF for State and Amile is a PF and will play PF in college.

I guess you could say Leslie plays PF for State, but even if you did, I agree with you that he's really a SF playing out of position. The kid weighs 209 pounds for crying out loud, and is a slasher, who has very little inside game. Just like I expect Jefferson to be, unless and until he fills out some and adds some muscle. As of now, neither one of these guys has the build or the game that says "power forward" to me, at all.

[JNort]

Leslie is a PF that plays PF at State. Kelly is a PF that plays PF at Duke. Jefferson is a PF that would play PF at State or Duke. The presence of Leslie and Kelly (now that Mason has returned) mean the same thing with regard to Jefferson's playing time next year at either school.

What? Leslie is most definitely a SF playing PF at State.

[JNort]

This puts State as #2 in the ACC next year. Lots of bandwagon media folks will put them number 1, but that just isn't right especially loosing Painter.
All the media people saying Duke is in the 'second group' behind state and unc are crazy. Duke 1, state 2, then unc and some others in the 'middle pack'. People place too much emphasis on a last few game slup at the end of the season.
I think Duke is going to surprise a ton of people next year and be stellar. Like top 5, potential national champion stellar. We'll be improved on both offense and defense with less weaknesses than we had last year. It's going to be a good year guys, very good.

Leslie returning should sway Jefferson to Duke (esp w/ Gbinije leaving) if he is looking at playing time. If he is looking for someone to mold himself after for a year then step in for... well, Leslie is hard to be as far as that goes. He seems like he has a little bit of State and Duke in him to me. So who knows.


IDK I think I would say:

1. State
2. Duke (close second)
3. UNC by default (I think they are going to be just awful)

[gumbomoop]

Because of their height and weight, Leslie (6'8" 209) and Amile (6'7" 190) are much more of SF/PF tweeners.

They are both SF/PF tweeners and could play either position. Amile would most likely see time at SF and PF at either school.

This is a point worth fleshing out. I agree with CDu that Amile has been a 4. AFAIK, he played inside in HS, in the sense that he guarded interior players, and on O his MO was to get toward the basket, either into the lane or along the baseline. He does look like a 3, but plays more like a 4. He's been a scorer, not so much a wing shooter.

However, Big Pappa has a point. Thinking only about Amile at Duke [as I don't care to ponder Amile at NCSt], it's perhaps true that he would see limited time inside - as he'd be way behind Ryan, and somewhat behind Josh - and possibly a bit more time on the wing - behind Alex and Andre, but capable of providing valuable D-minutes in relief of Alex.

I don't think there's a big difference between what CDu and Big Pappa are saying. It's nuance, slightly different emphasis, and, as far as Amile's role at Duke his first year is concerned, affected by Mason's return and Michael's depature.

I do hope CDu and Big Pappa, not to mention thousands of others, will be debating Amile's role at Duke all summer long......

[CDu]

What? Leslie is most definitely a SF playing PF at State.

No, he is a PF. Nothing about his game is a SF game. He is the same size as most college PF. He is a college PF. Now, he is going to need to become a SF at the NBA level, but everything about him is college PF.

[CDu]

I disagree. Because of their height and weight, Leslie (6'8" 209) and Amile (6'7" 190) are much more of SF/PF tweeners. The starting PFs on the top 5 ACC teams last year (not including State) were Henson (6'11" 220), Kelly (6'11" 230), James (6'10" 240), Scott (6'8" 237), and Kadji (6'11" 251). All significantly bigger than Leslie and Amile.

They are both SF/PF tweeners and could play either position. Amile would most likely see time at SF and PF at either school.

Okaro White was the primary PF at FSU, not James. James was the C. Xavier Gibson often started, but he was a finesse player more perimeter-oriented than James and would definitely be classified as a PF in my book. But he averaged less than 20mpg. White is very similar in size to Leslie.

Nothing about Leslie's game suggests SF. He's a smaller PF, but not terribly small. For example, James McAdoo is roughly the same size, has a similar lack of ballhandling and perimeter shooting skills, and is not nearly the leaper that Leslie is, but no one questions that he is a PF. The guys that you mentioned that are actual PF in college (Henson, Kelly, and Kadji) are all on the exceptionally tall side for PF. Heck, they're tall for C at the college level. And Scott is certainly stronger, but he was less of a leaper and no taller.

Everything about Leslie's game is that of a college PF and not that of a college SF. The same is true for what little I've seen of Jefferson. The only reason to suggest that Jefferson is a SF is because he's very slight of frame and not tall for the position. But he has a PF game in a SF body (25-30 lbs lighter than Leslie and an inch shorter, and minus the explosive hops).

It may be that Jefferson is forced to play more at the SF than PF due to those size limitations. If that is the case, then he is different from Leslie and Kelly, both of whom are more suited to PF (in Kelly's case, he might even be more suited to C defensively because of his lack of quickness) than SF. And if that's the case, then Duke offers as much opportunity next year as either State (who has Wood and Warren) or Kentucky (who has Poythress).

[jimsumner]

C.J. Leslie likely will transition into an NBA 3 down the road. But at State, he is absolutely a power forward. State's rotation was pretty simple last season. Leslie, Richard Howell and Painter split the 4/5 minutes, while Wood, Brown, Williams and Alex Johnson split the time at the 1, 2, 3. A couple of freshmen also played some forward early but State was largely a 7-player team in ACC/NCAA competition.

State does lose Painter but T.J. Warren projects as a combo forward, while Jordan Vandenberg will return from an injury redshirt.

Duke is recruiting Jefferson with the expectation that he would be a 4 early but might gain sufficient perimter skills down the road to play the 3. At the very minimum, he should be able to compete with Hairston and Marshall Plumlee to be the first big off the bench for Duke next season.

[Big Pappa]

Okaro White was the primary PF at FSU, not James. James was the C. Xavier Gibson often started, but he was a finesse player more perimeter-oriented than James and would definitely be classified as a PF in my book. But he averaged less than 20mpg. White is very similar in size to Leslie.

Nothing about Leslie's game suggests SF. He's a smaller PF, but not terribly small. For example, James McAdoo is roughly the same size, has a similar lack of ballhandling and perimeter shooting skills, and is not nearly the leaper that Leslie is, but no one questions that he is a PF. The guys that you mentioned that are actual PF in college (Henson, Kelly, and Kadji) are all on the exceptionally tall side for PF. Heck, they're tall for C at the college level. And Scott is certainly stronger, but he was less of a leaper and no taller.

Everything about Leslie's game is that of a college PF and not that of a college SF. The same is true for what little I've seen of Jefferson. The only reason to suggest that Jefferson is a SF is because he's very slight of frame and not tall for the position. But he has a PF game in a SF body (25-30 lbs lighter than Leslie and an inch shorter, and minus the explosive hops).

It may be that Jefferson is forced to play more at the SF than PF due to those size limitations. If that is the case, then he is different from Leslie and Kelly, both of whom are more suited to PF (in Kelly's case, he might even be more suited to C defensively because of his lack of quickness) than SF. And if that's the case, then Duke offers as much opportunity next year as either State (who has Wood and Warren) or Kentucky (who has Poythress).

A few quick points: Saying that Gibson was more of the PF than James is fine. IMO they were almost interchangeable at the 4 and 5 this year for FSU with both of them having some inside-out game. Gibson is even bigger at 6'11" 248.

I am not disagreeing with you about Leslie's skill-set being that of a PF or arguing that he plays PF at State. My main point is that Leslie returning to State takes minutes away from Amile getting minutes there. On the other hand, because Amile has always known that Ryan wasn't leaving and was still interested, Leslie's decision to return gives us a boost in Amile's recruitment. Also, because Amile does have a more versatile skill-set and is smaller, he has the ability to play SF or PF at Duke. Because of Mike's transfer he has the ability to challenge Josh at the backup PF as well as get minutes behind Alex at SF. IMO, this gives us a little bit of an upper-hand (against State) in regard to his recruitment.

[roywhite]

C.J. Leslie likely will transition into an NBA 3 down the road. But at State, he is absolutely a power forward. State's rotation was pretty simple last season. Leslie, Richard Howell and Painter split the 4/5 minutes, while Wood, Brown, Williams and Alex Johnson split the time at the 1, 2, 3. A couple of freshmen also played some forward early but State was largely a 7-player team in ACC/NCAA competition.

State does lose Painter but T.J. Warren projects as a combo forward, while Jordan Vandenberg will return from an injury redshirt.

Duke is recruiting Jefferson with the expectation that he would be a 4 early but might gain sufficient perimter skills down the road to play the 3. At the very minimum, he should be able to compete with Hairston and Marshall Plumlee to be the first big off the bench for Duke next season.

Understand your point on Jefferson, but I'm wondering about your thought on who comes off the bench first.
Are you looking at Mason, Ryan, and Alex Murphy all to start on a regular basis?
That would mean no three guard lineups on a starting basis? Perhaps that will be the case, but I'll guess Ryan and Alex compete for some of the same minutes at times.

[CDu]

A few quick points: Saying that Gibson was more of the PF than James is fine. IMO they were almost interchangeable at the 4 and 5 this year for FSU with both of them having some inside-out game. Gibson is even bigger at 6'11" 248.

Gibson was taller and heavier than James (and Leslie), but if you watched those 3 players play, one of them played significantly "smaller" than the others. Gibson was a fairly soft big guy. He's an example where size doesn't tell the real story.


I am not disagreeing with you about Leslie's skill-set being that of a PF or arguing that he plays PF at State. My main point is that Leslie returning to State takes minutes away from Amile getting minutes there. On the other hand, because Amile has always known that Ryan wasn't leaving and was still interested, Leslie's decision to return gives us a boost in Amile's recruitment. Also, because Amile does have a more versatile skill-set and is smaller, he has the ability to play SF or PF at Duke. Because of Mike's transfer he has the ability to challenge Josh at the backup PF as well as get minutes behind Alex at SF. IMO, this gives us a little bit of an upper-hand (against State) in regard to his recruitment.

Yes, Leslie returning to State helps us. I don't disagree at all. My only disagreement was with the concept that Leslie returning gave us a huge edge. In reality, all it did was level the playing field again. When Mason returned, it eliminated the possibility that Jefferson could get most of the minutes at PF at Duke next year. When Leslie returned, the same became true at NC State.

If Jefferson can play some SF, he would indeed have an opportunity to play some SF at Duke. I'd argue that his opportunity isn't substantively greater to do so here (competing with Dawkins and Murphy) than at State (with Wood and Warren). He has the same opportunity to be a backup at either school. I'd also note that he doesn't appear to have the skill set to play SF (yet). So that may be a moot point next year.

[Slackerb]

A lot of this discussion about Jefferson assumes that playing time is a critical factor here. Sometimes kids also want to ensure they're on a good team that will go far and play with other good players. Leslie returning to State helps out in that department greatly.

I'd say Leslie's return to State is a wash overall in terms of Jefferson recruiting.

And once again I disagree with DBR's front page article. Similar to the sour grapes article of Silent G, here's what the article states:

- Sure it's great he came back, State would have been in real trouble without him.
- Even though he comes back, they still have depth problems in the frontcourt. See! They still have flaws!

First off, it completely forgets Tyler Harris when discussing potential front-court backups and backups overall for State.

Secondly, it makes the case that State will have equal or less depth in the frontcourt. I disagree. While Painter was a high quality backup, State will definitely have more front court depth this year, with Vandenburg, De Theay, Harris, and Warren possibly getting backup time at PF/C. It's more quantity and lower quality potentially, sure. However, "take away" the starting frontcourt of any team in the ACC, and how do the backups look? It's not such a huge flaw in a roster really, and just seems petty to throw this discussion into the Leslie returns news.

[Big Pappa]

If Jefferson can play some SF, he would indeed have an opportunity to play some SF at Duke. I'd argue that his opportunity isn't substantively greater to do so here (competing with Dawkins and Murphy) than at State (with Wood and Warren). He has the same opportunity to be a backup at either school. I'd also note that he doesn't appear to have the skill set to play SF (yet). So that may be a moot point next year.

I agree with almost everything you said, except that he has about the same opportunity to see minutes at SF at Duke or State. At Duke he would be competing with Alex (redshirt freshman with 0 minutes played) and Dre (a senior who lost his starting spot and averaged less than 15mpg his last 6 games). At State he would be competing with Wood (who average almost 33mpg which was second most on the team) and Warren (top 30 recruit and Mcd's AA).

I know those aren't the only facts or stats that matter with Alex, Dre, Wood, and Warren, but I think that is what will stick out to Amile and that will be how the Duke coaches present it.

[Jderf]

A lot of this discussion about Jefferson assumes that playing time is a critical factor here. Sometimes kids also want to ensure they're on a good team that will go far and play with other good players. Leslie returning to State helps out in that department greatly.

I'd say Leslie's return to State is a wash overall in terms of Jefferson recruiting.

And once again I disagree with DBR's front page article. Similar to the sour grapes article of Silent G, here's what the article states:

- Sure it's great he came back, State would have been in real trouble without him.
- Even though he comes back, they still have depth problems in the frontcourt. See! They still have flaws!

First off, it completely forgets Tyler Harris when discussing potential front-court backups and backups overall for State.

Secondly, it makes the case that State will have equal or less depth in the frontcourt. I disagree. While Painter was a high quality backup, State will definitely have more front court depth this year, with Vandenburg, De Theay, Harris, and Warren possibly getting backup time at PF/C. It's more quantity and lower quality potentially, sure. However, "take away" the starting frontcourt of any team in the ACC, and how do the backups look? It's not such a huge flaw in a roster really, and just seems petty to throw this discussion into the Leslie returns news.

Well, the point of the front page article was to discuss the issue of quality depth, not just depth -- although as you point out, this is a problem for many teams. I thought the article had some legitimate analysis about State's prospects next season, which makes perfect sense to publish now (and is in no way "petty") because we finally know what the solidified roster will look like. The conclusion? State is favored in the ACC, but not unassailable, which I think is 100% spot on. Again, hard to see how that is petty.

And finally, the article concludes with this:

Still, it’s pleasant to consider: the Pack is back.

We want the ACC to be great from top to bottom, but we really want State, Wake, Maryland and Georgia Tech to do well. It’s good for everyone for State to be powerful.

That's a generalized, boldfaced endorsement of NC State Basketball. How on earth is that being petty? Hate to word that so strongly, but I really am surprised that people continue to take such offense at the front page articles. I find myself waking up, reading the articles, disagreeing with a few things here and there, but generally finding the article uncontroversial -- yet when I log into the boards I find nothing but outrage. I keep going back to see if I maybe missed something, but I'm just not getting it.

Oh well, I guess I could always be straight-up wrong.

[Slackerb]

I dunno, but for me it's like "Hooray Leslie is back" but here are State's issues.

Can't they just announce that Leslie is back, discuss his return, and wait a day before finding the flaws in the roster?

There's always the feeling that they need to mitigate the news.

Something good happens to the other team? Praise it but then analyze why it might not be so good.

Something happens bad to our team? Well obviously it can't be too bad, because of x, y, and z.

[rsvman]

I dunno, but for me it's like "Hooray Leslie is back" but here are State's issues.

Can't they just announce that Leslie is back, discuss his return, and wait a day before finding the flaws in the roster?

There's always the feeling that they need to mitigate the news.

Something good happens to the other team? Praise it but then analyze why it might not be so good.

Something happens bad to our team? Well obviously it can't be too bad, because of x, y, and z.

I think what you're saying here is exactly true.


On the other hand, this is a Duke basketball fan message board, so I'm not sure what you were expecting..........

[ACCBBallFan]

Duke is recruiting Jefferson with the expectation that he would be a 4 early but might gain sufficient perimter skills down the road to play the 3. At the very minimum, he should be able to compete with Hairston and Marshall Plumlee to be the first big off the bench for Duke next season.

I have heard a lot of opinions on whether Amile is a 4 or a 3, and yours is one everybody respects.

It also infers your confidence that if these 3 are up to the task of being big man backups, that Alex will play the 3 almost exclusively, as Kyle mostly did after he was moved.

It would be a supply and demand thing, too eatly to tell, based on other recruits who come on board to replace MP2, Ryan and Dre, whether Amile and Alex are most needed at PF or at SF in later years.

Your post makes Amile's situation sound similar to Henson's failed first year experiment, the build of a tall skinny SF in a guy who at present skillwise can't play very far away from the rim.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I dunno, but for me it's like "Hooray Leslie is back" but here are State's issues.

Can't they just announce that Leslie is back, discuss his return, and wait a day before finding the flaws in the roster?

There's always the feeling that they need to mitigate the news.

Something good happens to the other team? Praise it but then analyze why it might not be so good.

Something happens bad to our team? Well obviously it can't be too bad, because of x, y, and z.

I mean, obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion but no one's making you come here and read what's published...

[Jderf]

I dunno, but for me it's like "Hooray Leslie is back" but here are State's issues.

Can't they just announce that Leslie is back, discuss his return, and wait a day before finding the flaws in the roster?

There's always the feeling that they need to mitigate the news.

Something good happens to the other team? Praise it but then analyze why it might not be so good.

Something happens bad to our team? Well obviously it can't be too bad, because of x, y, and z.

I think what you're saying here is exactly true.


On the other hand, this is a Duke basketball fan message board, so I'm not sure what you were expecting..........

I think what you're talking about is the DBR front page's tendency to "temper the news," no matter what it is. If that is what you mean, then I agree. The front page almost always reports on the events of the day, and then tries to "dilute" or "soften" it. In other words, there is always an important "BUT" somewhere in the article. So we have, "Gbinije transfers... BUT this is not a total disaster." Or, "Leslie returns... BUT they are not unstoppable." This rhetorical adjustment is almost always present in major front page articles.

BUT (see what I did there? :p) I'm not sure this is necessarily petty or immature, because it doesn't always work in Duke's direction. For example, look at the majority of their pre-game articles: they typically take the form of "Duke is favored... BUT could easily lose if _______."

Basically, they don't seem to trust readers to read the news calmly -- and why should they? -- so they always try to temper the information to prevent the most extreme or outrageous reaction.

I find it supremely ironic that this tendency often leads to extreme or outrageous reactions.

[Newton_14]

No, he is a PF. Nothing about his game is a SF game. He is the same size as most college PF. He is a college PF. Now, he is going to need to become a SF at the NBA level, but everything about him is college PF.

Agree. His outside shot, and to a lesser degree, his ball handling, prevent him from being a SF. I think Leslie's ball handling could easily be improved enough to allow him to play SF, but unless he improves his outside shot by a large margin, he will remain a PF. I think that is one reason he came back. He is too small to play PF in the NBA, and is not skilled enough to play the SF in the NBA.

Leslie definitely improved a lot as a Sophomore under the tutelage of Gottfried, and developed into a really good College PF. I think he can be a 1st team All ACC player next year. Last year at this time, I was not high on him at all, but he was a different player under Gottfried than he was under Lowe. Major difference.