2012 Duke Football

[ScheyersonFire2010]

With most of the recruiting saga over whose got some info on the boys of Fall?:rolleyes: As well as predictions..

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

There have been several threads discussing the 2012 class, spring practice and the 2013 class as well as transfer Jeremy Clark's arrival on campus.

[PDDuke85]

With most of the recruiting saga over whose got some info on the boys of Fall?:rolleyes: As well as predictions..

Before long, I'm predicting someone will broach the issue of Cut on the hot seat.

[DukeSean]

There have been several threads discussing the 2012 class, spring practice and the 2013 class as well as transfer Jeremy Clark's arrival on campus.

I think you mean Jeremy Cash, right? Anyways, he's a stud safety who transferred from Ohio State. Really excited about the upcoming season!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Before long, I'm predicting someone will broach the issue of Cut on the hot seat.
A thread like that would fade away quickly...probably even be shut down by the mods at the mere preposterousness of it.


Ugh...we have so long to wait, I need to find a way to go into sports hibernation over the summer.
I would recommend biding your time by reading Heather Dinich's blog on espn. It's daily, and really informative about happenings in the ACC. Not lots coming out now, and Heather herself is on maternity leave, but her stand-in is doing a decent job.
http://espn.go.com/blog/acc

[mkline09]

A thread like that would fade away quickly...probably even be shut down by the mods at the mere preposterousness of it.


Ugh...we have so long to wait, I need to find a way to go into sports hibernation over the summer.
I would recommend biding your time by reading Heather Dinich's blog on espn. It's daily, and really informative about happenings in the ACC. Not lots coming out now, and Heather herself is on maternity leave, but her stand-in is doing a decent job.
http://espn.go.com/blog/acc

Also, and I'm not huge on tuting my own horn, but I'll be writing about Duke Football more in the coming weeks and starting position breakdowns as well as season pojections over at my website for those that are interested. I'm no insider, just a fan but if you are looking for some musings on Duke Football I got them.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I think you mean Jeremy Cash, right? Anyways, he's a stud safety who transferred from Ohio State. Really excited about the upcoming season!

Yes. That was a test to find out who's really reading about football. You passed!:cool:

[ScheyersonFire2010]

Have you guys heard of 4* 2014 recruit jonathan Lloyd? He goes to a high school (Southern Alamance) in the same conference as mine and I actually used to play against him (sacked him once actually :cool:) It looks like OSU and UNC:mad: are his favorites but Duke has made an offer as well. Heres a link to his rivals profile.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Johnathan-Lloyd-133598

[Mike Corey]

SI's Stewart Mandel chimes in (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/07/03/playoff-bowls-penn-state-mailbag/1.html):


Mark it down: Duke WILL reach a bowl game for the first time since 1994.
The Blue Devils lost their last seven games last season, but they held Virginia Tech to 14 points and narrowly lost to bowl-bound Wake Forest (24-23). They return 17 starters, including third-year quarterback Sean Renfree, Cutcliffe's latest protégé/project who's had eight 300-yard passing games. And most importantly, the Blue Devils play in a very unimposing division (Miami figures to struggle, North Carolina is going through a coaching change and even the Hokies seem vulnerable). If Duke can score nonconference wins over FIU, North Carolina Central and Memphis and split the foursome of Miami, UNC, Virginia and Wake Forest, then it needs just one big upset (Clemson? Georgia Tech?) to go bowling.

[OldPhiKap]

SI's Stewart Mandel chimes in (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/07/03/playoff-bowls-penn-state-mailbag/1.html):

Good deal, as long as we're not on the cover we're good as gold.

[jimsumner]

SI's Stewart Mandel chimes in (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/07/03/playoff-bowls-penn-state-mailbag/1.html):

Duke may be in an unimposing division but Duke also gets FSU and Clemson from the other division. Trade them for BC and Maryland and we're not talking big upsets to become bowl eligible.

[riddle me this]

I think you mean Jeremy Cash, right? Anyways, he's a stud safety who transferred from Ohio State. Really excited about the upcoming season!

I'm pretty sure he meant Jeremy Clarkson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8), presenter of Top Gear.

In all seriousness, I am very excited for the possibilities next year. I'm hoping our experienced offense gets sorted out, and our young defense can step up in a big way. I'm looking forward to seeing how Renfree & Vernon can tear up defenses with a bigger, older O-line, and some healthy running backs.

From what I hear from people close to the program, the players and coaches are very excited about next year, but very determined to do better than years past. (<-- that's not rumor-mongering, is it?)

[peloton]

While I agree that the Blue Devils will play in a bowl game soon I'm not convinced yet that it'll be this coming season. I need to hang around Ozzie a bit more I guess ;) I think we'll win at least one game that "we're not supposed to win" but beyond that I'm hesitant to make any predictions. We're definitely improving on the field, just not in regard to the wins/losses columns. The onus is on the upperclassmen such as Sean Renfree, Sydney Sarmiento, Justin Fox, Conor Irwin, Ross Cockrell, Dave Harding, Conner Vernon, and others to be leaders on the field. I sincerely believe that each one will be in their own unique way. They need to make it clear to the younger guys (via both actions and words) that the days when "well, Duke gave 'em all they could handle" is uttered after another tough loss are less frequent. These young men are laying the groundwork for (even) more successful seasons and I believe that process continues this year. With an effective running game a result of an improved offensive line, a more stout defense, and a sound kicking game, hopefully they'll surprise some people...and it just so happens that I like surprises.

[CameronBornAndBred]

SI's Stewart Mandel chimes in (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/07/03/playoff-bowls-penn-state-mailbag/1.html):
Well if he's right he can yell told you so and if he's wrong he can say "They have to do it sometime".
But I think he's right and my predictions are buried around the board here somewhere. When we know where we are going my ticket will be stamped..I'm looking so forward to TBCC hauling our grills to host the best tailgate at the bowl game.

[peloton]

When we know where we are going my ticket will be stamped..

I'm right there with you. Although I didn't make our most recent bowl game in 1995 against Wisconsin a friend and I did make the trip down to 'Bama for our 1989 All American Bowl game with 24th ranked Texas Tech. Suffice it to say that the beating we took there on historic Legion Field as the 20th ranked team nationally left a bad taste in my mouth which still lingers to this day. The only way to get this bad taste out of my mouth is to see our guys win their next bowl game. It's just a few more weeks until our first game and I'm getting excited at this coming season's prospects simply typing this. The ongoing improvement of the Duke football program continues against FIU on Sept 1st! I predict a 5 win season although if we keep our turnovers to a minimum and catch a few breaks, we could win 6.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm right there with you. Although I didn't make our most recent bowl game in 1995 against Wisconsin a friend and I did make the trip down to 'Bama for our 1989 All American Bowl game with 24th ranked Texas Tech. Suffice it to say that the beating we took there on historic Legion Field as the 20th ranked team nationally left a bad taste in my mouth which still lingers to this day. The only way to get this bad taste out of my mouth is to see our guys win their next bowl game. It's just a few more weeks until our first game and I'm getting excited at this coming season's prospects simply typing this. The ongoing improvement of the Duke football program continues against FIU on Sept 1st! I predict a 5 win season although if we keep our turnovers to a minimum and catch a few breaks, we could win 6.

I went to Tampa for the Hall of Fame Bowl. I was struck by how the Wisconsin folks really knew how to tailgate, while we mainly had a tent with folks drinking cocktails before the game. This bowl, we need a big and committed turn-out.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I went to Tampa for the Hall of Fame Bowl. I was struck by how the Wisconsin folks really knew how to tailgate, while we mainly had a tent with folks drinking cocktails before the game. This bowl, we need a big and committed turn-out.
In his own way, Coach Cutcliffe has been nurturing the development of more vital game day traditions at Duke. The tailgate activity sited in the Card Gym Lot was his idea. I think that our tailgate traditions will continue to be different from others', but they will definitely be something to look forward to!;):cool:

[wilko]

Before long, I'm predicting someone will broach the issue of Cut on the hot seat.

Only "Hot Seat" Cut is on is when he gets gets into his convertible after having left the top down in the sun.

[sagegrouse]

I went to Tampa for the Hall of Fame Bowl. I was struck by how the Wisconsin folks really knew how to tailgate, while we mainly had a tent with folks drinking cocktails before the game. This bowl, we need a big and committed turn-out.


In his own way, Coach Cutcliffe has been nurturing the development of more vital game day traditions at Duke. The tailgate activity sited in the Card Gym Lot was his idea. I think that our tailgate traditions will continue to be different from others', but they will definitely be something to look forward to!;):cool:

Wisconsin is the home of bratwurst and frankfurters, has a huge alumni base, and sports large attendance at home games. It is indeed formidable competition in tailgates. We have a long way to go. In fact, a Wisconsin native here is Colorado threw a party he called an "old-fashioned Wisconsin tailgate."

A more reasonable comparison is Navy, which with a small dedicated base of alumni still has marvelous parties that cover the parking lot at Navy-Marine Corpsd Stadium. Yeah, I know, the Navy brass and many naval and marine officers are only an hour away in DC. But the tradition is there.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

In his own way, Coach Cutcliffe has been nurturing the development of more vital game day traditions at Duke. The tailgate activity sited in the Card Gym Lot was his idea. I think that our tailgate traditions will continue to be different from others', but they will definitely be something to look forward to!;):cool:

Agreed, and hats off to you (and others) setting the new foundation!

[TruBlu]

After the game in Tampa, some Wisconsin fans were giving my group some friendly ribbing. My only response was to tell them that while they may have won the game, it was the middle of winter, and they had to go back to Wisconsin.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Agreed, and hats off to you (and others) setting the new foundation!

Thank you! Just as our recruiting may not be like some of the storied programs, there is no reason for our traditions to be like theirs. Duke is unique. It's important to understand what makes us unique and build on the good qualities or features.

[Native]

Great tradition - had no idea they did this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHbtSimlg2Q&feature=player_embedded#!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Great tradition - had no idea they did this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHbtSimlg2Q&feature=player_embedded#!

Cool, but I have to wonder if this tape may make it's way down the road as a motivational tool for next year's game? :confused: Talk about bulletin board material...

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Cool, but I have to wonder if this tape may make it's way down the road as a motivational tool for next year's game? :confused: Talk about bulletin board material...
This same jersey has been used for the last tackle at least since the the game in Chapel Hill when Marvin Austin beat on Thad Lewis until Thad could hardly stand up. It may have been used prior to that as well. Hard to remember all the details now that we're building up some traditions......

[formerdukeathlete]

Before long, I'm predicting someone will broach the issue of Cut on the hot seat.

4 or more wins this coming season and I think his seat stays cool enough, we hopeful enough, for the eventual turnaround. 6 or more wins and we are pretty much bought into what he is doing, and pretty happy about it. 3 or less wins, if Tom Butters were AD, we'd be looking for the next Spurrier.

[OldPhiKap]

3 or less wins, if Tom Butters were AD, we'd be looking for the next Spurrier.

Tom stood by an unknown basketball coach through several pretty bad years, after having gotten to the final four just a few years prior. I would have to believe he would stick by a proven coach trying to revive a moribund football program.

Just sayin'

[uh_no]

Tom stood by an unknown basketball coach through several pretty bad years, after having gotten to the final four just a few years prior. I would have to believe he would stick by a proven coach trying to revive a moribund football program.

Just sayin'

through 3 very bad years, but then we showed MARKED improvement.

Now, I'm not for torching cut here, quite the opposite, but I think if the season does not show improvement over cut's first 4 (the fact that we were terrible under previous coaches must be laid aside at some point), if cut seems to stagnate, then it may be time to start asking questions, and the answer may be that cut is still the right man for the job, but to not even ask the question wouldn't be doing the team justice.

now if we have 6 wins, this all becomes irrelevent anyway :) and you can check my sig to see how i feel about that!

[OldPhiKap]

through 3 very bad years, but then we showed MARKED improvement.

Now, I'm not for torching cut here, quite the opposite, but I think if the season does not show improvement over cut's first 4 (the fact that we were terrible under previous coaches must be laid aside at some point), if cut seems to stagnate, then it may be time to start asking questions, and the answer may be that cut is still the right man for the job, but to not even ask the question wouldn't be doing the team justice.

now if we have 6 wins, this all becomes irrelevent anyway :) and you can check my sig to see how i feel about that!

I think we are on the same page, although you can turn a basketball team around with one or two great players. Football is much harder to build. So I think the timeframe is a bit longer.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I can't remember who it was on Stanford's team who predicted a Stanford whitewashing of Duke.....After Duke WON the game rumor has it that Duke fans could be heard screaming joyously from San Francisco's famed cable cars well into the night. "Rip em up, Tear em up, Give 'em Hell Duke" (think that was what was reported as being screamed, ad naseum--guess by some it would be, for me it would be pretty sweet--by the SF Chronicle)

I am not saying Duke is going to beat Stanford. I still think Stanford has too much talent for Duke. However, Mr. Luck is now in the NFL and though they have an amazing line of recruited linemen coming into the program, those kids haven't played in games at the college level yet.

An overly confident Stanford team could be ripe for a loss. It would be a really big win for Duke too because I think we don't do enough recruiting in that part of the country. I know Pac-12 teams pull for one another (or are supposed to), but I have a feeling many a Cal Bear fan would love (and I mean LOVE it) for Duke to pull the upset. They are sick of how the Stanford football program keeps getting (and deservedly so--after all I went to Stanford too, so I know it is deserved (big grin)) all the hype and they wonder how much longer their under-performing (at least when compared to Stanford's) coach will stick around.

GO DUKE!

[formerdukeathlete]

Hi,

I can't remember who it was on Stanford's team who predicted a Stanford whitewashing of Duke.....After Duke WON the game rumor has it that Duke fans could be heard screaming joyously from San Francisco's famed cable cars well into the night. "Rip em up, Tear em up, Give 'em Hell Duke" (think that was what was reported as being screamed, ad naseum--guess by some it would be, for me it would be pretty sweet--by the SF Chronicle)

I am not saying Duke is going to beat Stanford. I still think Stanford has too much talent for Duke. However, Mr. Luck is now in the NFL and though they have an amazing line of recruited linemen coming into the program, those kids haven't played in games at the college level yet.

An overly confident Stanford team could be ripe for a loss. It would be a really big win for Duke too because I think we don't do enough recruiting in that part of the country. I know Pac-12 teams pull for one another (or are supposed to), but I have a feeling many a Cal Bear fan would love (and I mean LOVE it) for Duke to pull the upset. They are sick of how the Stanford football program keeps getting (and deservedly so--after all I went to Stanford too, so I know it is deserved (big grin)) all the hype and they wonder how much longer their under-performing (at least when compared to Stanford's) coach will stick around.

GO DUKE!

Beating even the Luck-less Cardinal now would be a pretty huge upset. In the late 60s, into the early to mid 70s, Duke recruited mid-level ACC. We would land, more often than not, I believe, players with Maryland, UVa, Wake Forest offers. Our recuiting classes may have been a bit closer to Stanford's classes at the time in terms of talent. Since Harbaugh was named coach, Stanford has been recruiting off the charts. A win over Stanford would provide a boost for Duke, particularly when going after elite talent with top grades who in choosing Stanford for academics now are turning down offers from many of the top football programs in the country. We could have a legitimate shot at these players, particularly those who are east of the Mississippi river.

[jimsumner]

I think we are on the same page, although you can turn a basketball team around with one or two great players. Football is much harder to build. So I think the timeframe is a bit longer.


There's a huge difference between the job Krzyzewski took in 1980 and the job Cutcliffe took in 2008.

K took over a Duke team that had played in a regional final only a few weeks prior, had spent much of the two previous seasons ranked number one and had played for the national title in 1978. With the exception of Neil McGeachy's 1974 team, even then down years of the 1970s produced teams around
.500.

When K tried to convince guys like Dawkins and Alarie that Duke could become a national power, they knew he was telling the truth because they remembered seeing it happen only a few years earlier.

Cutcliffe, on the other hand, took over a program that had become a national punchline, with a series of winless and one-win seasons. One winning season since Spurrier left in 1989. The people he's recruiting don't remember Duke being nationally competitive because it hasn't happened in their memories.

[Olympic Fan]

Beating even the Luck-less Cardinal now would be a pretty huge upset. In the late 60s, into the early to mid 70s, Duke recruited mid-level ACC. We would land, more often than not, I believe, players with Maryland, UVa, Wake Forest offers. Our recuiting classes may have been a bit closer to Stanford's classes at the time in terms of talent. Since Harbaugh was named coach, Stanford has been recruiting off the charts. A win over Stanford would provide a boost for Duke, particularly when going after elite talent with top grades who in choosing Stanford for academics now are turning down offers from many of the top football programs in the country. We could have a legitimate shot at these players, particularly those who are east of the Mississippi river.

You are right that Duke's program was on a much different level in 1971 when Duke traveled to Palo Alto and defeated Stanford -- but Stanford was as good -- or better -- in '71 as they are now. In 1970, Stanford won the Pac 8 (at the time) and then won the Rose Bowl. The '71 Indians (I believe that was their nickname -- they soon decided was politically incorrect -- got off to a great start in 1971 and were undefeated and ranked No. 10 in the nation when Duke came to town. Don Bunce, the Stanford quarterback, predicted at an early week luncheon that Stanford would beat Duke by something like 42-0.

Well, that was Mike McGee's first Duke team and he inherited a nice veneer of talent from Tom Hart. Although Leo Hart, the best Duke quarterback in history to that point, had graduated after the 1970 season (along with his star WR Wes Chesson), McGee still had a superb defense, a great running back in Steve Jones and an amazing unknown kicker that he had recruioted from the soccer team.

The combination of the great defense, Jones keying the office and Dave Wright's kicking led Duke to a stunning 12-7 victory over Florida in the opener in Tampa. Florida, with All-American QB John Reaves was supposed to be a SEC contender. But they couldn't move against a defense coached by Mike's brother -- Jerry. Jones helped Duke control the ball and Wright kicked four FGs.

The next week, Duke cane home to face No. 19 South Carolina and dominated the Gamecocks, 28-12. The next week Duke went on the road and dominated Virginia 28-0 (although after playing two very good teams, you have to know that Virginia was an ACC patsy in 1971). The next week was the trip to Stanford, but before the game, Jones was hurt in a traffic accident and was unable to make the trip. Even so, the defense was magnificant, singlehandedly outscoring Stanford 6-3 (giving up one field goal, while scoring the game's only TD on an Ernie Jackson interception return). Wright added a long FG and Duke won 9-3.

BTW -- that Stanford team ended up winning another Pac 8 title and then won a second straight Rose Bowl.

But that was the high point ... injuries started to pile up and there just wasn't enough depth to make up for it. Wright was hurt in practice the next week and his absence proved fatal the next week against Clemson -- Duke was inside the Tiger 20 at least half a dozen times, but ended up losing 3-0 because nobody else could kick a field goal and without Jones, the offense had no punch.

McGee started playing his players two ways to try and solve the problem. Jackson, who was having an All-American year at cornerback and as a punt returner, moved to tailback and had some huge days in a win at NC State, a heartbreaking loss to Navy and in trouncing Bobby Bowden's West Virginia team. Ed Newman, who would play a dozen years in the NFL, played offensive line and defensive line. So did Willie Clayton. All-ACC (three times) safety Rich Searl filled in an QB when when starter Dennis Satyshur was hurt.

In the end, they just got too worn down and finished 6-5. But that 4-0 start was memorable -- I know Goldsmoth started 7-0 in his first year at Duke, but considering the qualify of competition -- at Florida, South Carolina and at Stanford -- McGee's start was more impressive.

Unfortunately, that was the high point for his program. His teams were never terrible, but they were almost always middle-of-the-pack ACC. So were, for the most part, SWilson and Sloan's teams in the '80s. It wasn't until the last 15 years or so that Duke football fell off the cliff. Look at the teams in the 1970s and 1980s and see that, with just a couple of brief exceptions, Duke was more mediocre than terrible.

[formerdukeathlete]

You are right that Duke's program was on a much different level in 1971 when Duke traveled to Palo Alto and defeated Stanford -- but Stanford was as good -- or better -- in '71 as they are now. In 1970, Stanford won the Pac 8 (at the time) and then won the Rose Bowl. The '71 Indians (I believe that was their nickname -- they soon decided was politically incorrect -- got off to a great start in 1971 and were undefeated and ranked No. 10 in the nation when Duke came to town. Don Bunce, the Stanford quarterback, predicted at an early week luncheon that Stanford would beat Duke by something like 42-0.

Well, that was Mike McGee's first Duke team and he inherited a nice veneer of talent from Tom Hart. Although Leo Hart, the best Duke quarterback in history to that point, had graduated after the 1970 season (along with his star WR Wes Chesson), McGee still had a superb defense, a great running back in Steve Jones and an amazing unknown kicker that he had recruioted from the soccer team.

The combination of the great defense, Jones keying the office and Dave Wright's kicking led Duke to a stunning 12-7 victory over Florida in the opener in Tampa. Florida, with All-American QB John Reaves was supposed to be a SEC contender. But they couldn't move against a defense coached by Mike's brother -- Jerry. Jones helped Duke control the ball and Wright kicked four FGs.

The next week, Duke cane home to face No. 19 South Carolina and dominated the Gamecocks, 28-12. The next week Duke went on the road and dominated Virginia 28-0 (although after playing two very good teams, you have to know that Virginia was an ACC patsy in 1971). The next week was the trip to Stanford, but before the game, Jones was hurt in a traffic accident and was unable to make the trip. Even so, the defense was magnificant, singlehandedly outscoring Stanford 6-3 (giving up one field goal, while scoring the game's only TD on an Ernie Jackson interception return). Wright added a long FG and Duke won 9-3.

BTW -- that Stanford team ended up winning another Pac 8 title and then won a second straight Rose Bowl.

But that was the high point ... injuries started to pile up and there just wasn't enough depth to make up for it. Wright was hurt in practice the next week and his absence proved fatal the next week against Clemson -- Duke was inside the Tiger 20 at least half a dozen times, but ended up losing 3-0 because nobody else could kick a field goal and without Jones, the offense had no punch.

McGee started playing his players two ways to try and solve the problem. Jackson, who was having an All-American year at cornerback and as a punt returner, moved to tailback and had some huge days in a win at NC State, a heartbreaking loss to Navy and in trouncing Bobby Bowden's West Virginia team. Ed Newman, who would play a dozen years in the NFL, played offensive line and defensive line. So did Willie Clayton. All-ACC (three times) safety Rich Searl filled in an QB when when starter Dennis Satyshur was hurt.

In the end, they just got too worn down and finished 6-5. But that 4-0 start was memorable -- I know Goldsmoth started 7-0 in his first year at Duke, but considering the qualify of competition -- at Florida, South Carolina and at Stanford -- McGee's start was more impressive.

Unfortunately, that was the high point for his program. His teams were never terrible, but they were almost always middle-of-the-pack ACC. So were, for the most part, SWilson and Sloan's teams in the '80s. It wasn't until the last 15 years or so that Duke football fell off the cliff. Look at the teams in the 1970s and 1980s and see that, with just a couple of brief exceptions, Duke was more mediocre than terrible.

Duke never had athletic dorms, but we did have a vibrant Greek system, and for decades ATO and Phi Delt were side by side on the main quad. ATO tended to be 2/3rds Football players and Phi Delt about 1/2. Recruits came on visits and saw that the Football team had desirable housing, good commons rooms in these frats and hosted through these frats some good social gatherings.

Recruiting fell off a cliff (mid 90s) about the time kegs were banned on campus and when ATO and Phi Delt were bumped off the main quad. In fact, I am not sure how well the freshman on East, sophomores on West, juniors in Central, seniors off campus works for recruiting. I think Freshman on East also hurt recruiting somewhat. Recruiting had gotten so bad that Nan acknowledged the need to do something and OKed fundraising for Yoh.

[Jim3k]

I went to Tampa for the Hall of Fame Bowl. I was struck by how the Wisconsin folks really knew how to tailgate, while we mainly had a tent with folks drinking cocktails before the game. This bowl, we need a big and committed turn-out.

Yeah, the Johnsonville Sausage people had a pavilion that made an impressive presentation. I've been buying their Italian Sweets ever since (great for lasagna). Also their other sausages on a more ad hoc basis.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah, the Johnsonville Sausage people had a pavilion that made an impressive presentation. I've been buying their Italian Sweets ever since (great for lasagna). Also their other sausages on a more ad hoc basis.

I went to Busch Gardens the day before the game, and there were THOUSANDS of folks walking around in their red Wisconsin shirts/blouses. At least it sure seemed that way.

[Dev11]

In fact, I am not sure how well the freshman on East, sophomores on West, juniors in Central, seniors off campus works for recruiting. I think Freshman on East also hurt recruiting somewhat. Recruiting had gotten so bad that Nan acknowledged the need to do something and OKed fundraising for Yoh.

As long as the host can point the recruit to Shooter's and Cosmic, we always have a fighting chance.

[Scorp4me]

Recruiting fell off a cliff (mid 90s) about the time kegs were banned on campus and when ATO and Phi Delt were bumped off the main quad.

Who knew frat guys getting drunk was so important to football recruiting.

[Kewlswim]

Who knew frat guys getting drunk was so important to football recruiting.

Hi,

Were you joking or being serious here? Football recruiting went down, I think, because we weren't winning and we were just not getting good coaching.

GO DUKE!

[OldPhiKap]

Who knew frat guys getting drunk was so important to football recruiting.

It's the circle of life. "Zenyatta Mondatta" or something like that.

[Scorp4me]

Hi,

Were you joking or being serious here? Football recruiting went down, I think, because we weren't winning and we were just not getting good coaching.

GO DUKE!

Yes I was joking, but didn't mean it too critically either. More a "haha" than an "sarcasm" kind of comment.

[Duvall]

Recruiting fell off a cliff (mid 90s) about the time kegs were banned on campus and when ATO and Phi Delt were bumped off the main quad.

*Performance* fell off a cliff in the mid-90s because recruiting fell off an even bigger cliff years earlier after Duke saw a Hall of Fame coach decamp to Hogtown. Once the last of those redshirt seniors graduated, the talent level in the program dropped noticably.

[formerdukeathlete]

Who knew frat guys getting drunk was so important to football recruiting.

Of course, you are free to take sarcastic pot shots.

However, if you think it was simply about opportunities to get drunk that recruits had chosen Duke over Uva, Maryland, Wake, Clemson, when the Football team was housed on the main quad in ATO and Phi Delt, you just don't know.

There were many more opportunities to get drunk at the other schools at the time. These schools had more venues to get a degree with less effort. They were more a party school. This is common knowledge.

When Nan emasculated the Football fraternities at Duke, she came close to killing the Program.

It was much more more about a place to live and have a social life with guys with whom you had a lot in common.


When that was taken away, recruiting plummeted.

[J.Blink]

Duke never had athletic dorms, but we did have a vibrant Greek system, and for decades ATO and Phi Delt were side by side on the main quad. ATO tended to be 2/3rds Football players and Phi Delt about 1/2. Recruits came on visits and saw that the Football team had desirable housing, good commons rooms in these frats and hosted through these frats some good social gatherings.

Recruiting fell off a cliff (mid 90s) about the time kegs were banned on campus and when ATO and Phi Delt were bumped off the main quad.

Good riddance.

[Olympic Fan]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).

Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

[Reilly]

In the Spurrier era, ATO was the football frat. After 41-0, I believe Spurrier and the Mrs. even stopped by for a late-night drink, as the Victory Bell went about clanging deep into the night ... remember Dilweg coming to Wednesday kegs wearing an Oklahoma Sooners Jamelle Holieway jersey .... recall two linemen sort of play wrestling (don't think it was a serious fight) and crashing into a marble stall wall in the bathroom, and the marble wall then fell and sheared off the front of the porcelain toilet, so water starts gushing everywhere ...

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).

Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

I dated in and married into Kappa Alpha Order during the era you described. My memories are not quite as extreme as yours. I also remember some of the stories of destruction that the Phi Delts were responsible for. One particular incident took place at Spruce Pine Lodge up at Lake Michie. A brother with an unusual first name led a charge on the women's restroom and broke down the door with a piece of furniture.

As I got to know many of the brothers, it became clear that most were playing to a stereotype of dumb jocks and wild parties. I remember conversations in which some guys would shared their ambitions and career goals, thoughts they rarely shared because they weren't taken seriously.

[sagegrouse]

I dated in and married into Kappa Alpha Order during the era you described. My memories are not quite as extreme as yours. I also remember some of the stories of destruction that the Phi Delts were responsible for. One particular incident took place at Spruce Pine Lodge up at Lake Michie. A brother with an unusual first name led a charge on the women's restroom and broke down the door with a piece of furniture.

As I got to know many of the brothers, it became clear that most were playing to a stereotype of dumb jocks and wild parties. I remember conversations in which some guys would shared their ambitions and career goals, thoughts they rarely shared because they weren't taken seriously.

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse
Thank you for bringing us back to the original topic. The Board of Trustees during the time you and I were at Duke brought in President Knight to take Duke to new heights, a goal still sought these days. My impression was that some of the BOT members were as responsible as President Knight in carrying out the obvious de-emphasis of football at Duke. The Cotton Bowl team had hardly left the campus when this change became very clear.

My intent was to illuminate some of the stereotypes related to particular fraternities. In some many situations, things are not as they appear on the surface.

[jimsumner]

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

I was at Duke around the same time as Olympic Fan and can attest to the accuracy of his statements.

[johnb]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).

Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

I came to Duke in 1977, and my recollection is that the KA's had fairly recently been kicked off campus for a series of incidents that culminated in some (apparently) disgusting violent behavior that I won't repeat online. When I was there between 77 and 81, the football players did seem to join ATO and to a lesser extent Phi Delt, and, as an outsider, their houses seemed unusually rowdy and physical. They also got primo real estate. I can certainly imagine the administration deciding to shut them down in the interest of creating a more intellectual campus environment.

A good friend of mine was at Oklahoma at the time. They dealt with the football issue in a different way. This is OU, of course, a place where the university president once said, "We're working hard to create a university that our football team can be proud of," so hobbling football was never an option. Anyway, they created fancy athletic dorms that were more or less self contained. Now I'm reporting second hand, multi-decade recollections, but the feeling around that very football-crazy campus was that the majority of their football stars were from very different demographic backgrounds from the typical white, middle class OU student, and the de facto segregation was preferable most clearly not to the general student body (which loved hanging out with players) but allowed the predominately African-American players a place to hang out in a relatively homogeneous environment in which they weren't oggled all day by fans. This was a long time ago, back in an era when an OU rival, Texas A&M, had a grand total of <150 African American students out of about 30,000 students, and almost all earned varsity letters in sports. OU wasn't as bad, but, like Duke, it's a lot more integrated now than then.

One more random point about football. Back in the 70's, few Duke sports were nationally competitive. Basketball hit it big in 78, but I don't recall any of the other sports being particularly competitive. Football has lagged during these years, but it's especially lagged compared to a bunch of other Duke sports teams that have become nationally powerhouses in the past 15 years.

Okay, this is a fractious thread, so I'm ready for corrections....

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I was at Duke from '72 to '76. The KA's were gone by the fall of '72, kicked off for the infamous quad dog incident, as rumor had it. From the bus stop, the first dorm on the left was a women's dorm, Clelland I believe, then ATO and Phi Delta Theta (or vice versa), followed by BOG. On the right, after the varius Union Building offices, the first dorm was the freshman House P, followed by Phi Kappa Psi in House O, up the steps were the Sig Eps, and independents beyond I believe. I think House G was another freshman dorm, but I don't remember. The ATO's and Phi Delts were primarily football players, and I knew many Phi Delts, playing club football with several of them. The Wootman, who was the Blue Devil in 1974 or 75 and occasionally posts here, was a Phi Delt. He was also a helluva running back! :cool:

The drinking age for beer and wine was 18, hard liquor was 21. Kegs were plentiful. From a partying standpoint, whether in fraternities or not, that was the golden age, because you didn't have to go off campus and DRIVE to drink. Or more importantly, return to campus AFTER drinking and get back into a car and drive or ride with a drunk driver. This has been discussed on these boards many times over the years in many threads. The University has to protect themselves from a liability standpoint because of the dram shop laws. How long was the Tailgate thread? We didn't have to "binge drink" before we went out, as so many do now. Wait. I'm digressing. Never mind.

[OldPhiKap]

the infamous quad dog incident

Can anyone here confirm that this actually happened? It's a story I've heard for years but it always came through someone's cousin's former housemate's ex-girlfriend.

[formerdukeathlete]

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

I would suggest you may not have been present at frat parties when recruits visited Duke and gotten their take about what they saw and what they liked, or at least that your experience was limited in this regard.

And, while, yes it is true that for the most part since Doug Knight was President Duke was not in the top 20 or top 25 in Footbal very often or for very long, Duke recruited pretty well (and better than we have or are recruiting today year on year) up to the point Nan became President of the University. Because you make very light of the suggestion that Nan hurt Football recruiting, I would suggest you may not have been following Duke's Football recruiting classes over the years, since Doug Knight.

Tommy Limbaugh pulled in 2 top 10 recruiting classes when he was on staff with Steve Sloan including the 86 class (coming in the fall of 86) which was ranked #5 in the country by SuperPrep. This was Spurrier's senior class which beat UNC 41 - 0. Limbaugh's pitch was this, "Duke is a great school academically. The weather is very nice. Its close to Chapel Hill for dinner and going out. And, the Football team has a heckuva good time with their fraternity parties."

Before Goldsmith took the Duke job he was concerned about whether the Duke Football players had a good time in college, because his Rice players had commented that the lack of a good time was their chief complaint at attending and playing for Rice. Steve Spurrier's son assured Fred that players had a good time at Duke. Then Nan pulled out the rug from under him. And, this killed recruiting, for him, Franks. Roof was a great recruiter. He did his best. He had Yoh to sell and the prospects for a turnaround. He landed a class in 05 ranked in the low 30s, but, without the turnaround, things went south from there. Even with Tom Hart, Mike McGee, Red Wilson, recruiting classes ranked in the 30s were common.

Look what happened under Nan. We went from there down to in the 70s to 80s nationally.

So laugh, if you will. But, what I describe was the reality. There absolutely was a correlation between the decline in Duke Football and Nan's crackdown on fraternities at Duke.

Nan did not intend to try to kill Duke Football. She simply did not understand that what she set out to do would have that tremendously adverse effect.

[budwom]

Dick Biddle when intoxicated (which was frequently) was the scariest human being I had ever seen in action. The fact that his name was seriously mentioned by some as
a potential head football coach for Duke (before Cutcliffe was hired) was preposterous. Too many people remember those days.

I imagine he has changed his ways considerably as I doubt Colgate would tolerate anything like the Biddle of 40 years ago.

[nocilla]

I have no knowledge of Duke in particular when it comes to football recruiting, but I did play a little college football. I went on a couple recruiting visits to some smaller schools in the state and I can tell you that frat parties are indeed part of the process. It is certainly not the biggest factor for kids making a college decision but it can be a big influence for some.

[jimsumner]

Dick Biddle when intoxicated (which was frequently) was the scariest human being I had ever seen in action. The fact that his name was seriously mentioned by some as
a potential head football coach for Duke (before Cutcliffe was hired) was preposterous. Too many people remember those days.

I imagine he has changed his ways considerably as I doubt Colgate would tolerate anything like the Biddle of 40 years ago.

I can also confirm budwom's recollections. In fact, I believe we may have been together on the main quad one Saturday evening after an especially bad Duke loss. Combine anger, alcohol, testosterone and really large human beings, and it can become very unpleasant.

I do think the decline of Duke football beginning in the middle-1960s is a bit more nuanced than Ivy League academics and their disdain for football, although that certainly was a big factor.

There are at least two other factors.

Duke football was at its best in a period with limited substitution, when players played on both sides of the ball and you could dominate with two dozen or so top players. When substitution limits were dispensed with, the equation changed. Specialization became the norm and Duke needed to recruit more good players than it could recruit. It might be a coincidence that Duke stopped winning titles when the game became two-platoon. But I suspect not.

Then there was desegregation. For a variety of socio-economic reasons, Duke simply wasn't viewed as congenial for African American athletes in the 1970s. K only had two black players as recently as 1982, his second season in Durham.

Duke recruited some great football players in those days. Guys like Steve Jones, Carl McGee, Mike Dunn and Billy Bryan could have gone anywhere. Duke just couldn't recruit the depth it needed to be more than a .500 team.

[jv001]

I can also confirm budwom's recollections. In fact, I believe we may have been together on the main quad one Saturday evening after an especially bad Duke loss. Combine anger, alcohol, testosterone and really large human beings, and it can become very unpleasant.

I do think the decline of Duke football beginning in the middle-1960s is a bit more nuanced than Ivy League academics and their disdain for football, although that certainly was a big factor.

There are at least two other factors.

Duke football was at its best in a period with limited substitution, when players played on both sides of the ball and you could dominate with two dozen or so top players. When substitution limits were dispensed with, the equation changed. Specialization became the norm and Duke needed to recruit more good players than it could recruit. It might be a coincidence that Duke stopped winning titles when the game became two-platoon. But I suspect not.

Then there was desegregation. For a variety of socio-economic reasons, Duke simply wasn't viewed as congenial for African American athletes in the 1970s. K only had two black players as recently as 1982, his second season in Durham.

Duke recruited some great football players in those days. Guys like Steve Jones, Carl McGee, Mike Dunn and Billy Bryan could have gone anywhere. Duke just couldn't recruit the depth it needed to be more than a .500 team.

Thanks for this great analysis of how Duke Football declined. I can remember Mike Curtis playing both ways(offense & defense) and doing a great job at each. For whatever the reason for it's decline, I sure miss the good teams that Duke used to put on the field. Getting a great basketball coach like Coach K and the fact he puts a very good team on the court year end and year out sure helped ease the pain of not having that same kind of team in football. However I do think that Coach Cut will build a solid program if given enough time. GoDuke!

[budwom]

I can also confirm budwom's recollections. In fact, I believe we may have been together on the main quad one Saturday evening after an especially bad Duke loss. Combine anger, alcohol, testosterone and really large human beings, and it can become very unpleasant.

I do think the decline of Duke football beginning in the middle-1960s is a bit more nuanced than Ivy League academics and their disdain for football, although that certainly was a big factor.

There are at least two other factors.

Duke football was at its best in a period with limited substitution, when players played on both sides of the ball and you could dominate with two dozen or so top players. When substitution limits were dispensed with, the equation changed. Specialization became the norm and Duke needed to recruit more good players than it could recruit. It might be a coincidence that Duke stopped winning titles when the game became two-platoon. But I suspect not.

Then there was desegregation. For a variety of socio-economic reasons, Duke simply wasn't viewed as congenial for African American athletes in the 1970s. K only had two black players as recently as 1982, his second season in Durham.

Duke recruited some great football players in those days. Guys like Steve Jones, Carl McGee, Mike Dunn and Billy Bryan could have gone anywhere. Duke just couldn't recruit the depth it needed to be more than a .500 team.

Indeed, desegregation played a major role. Things were VERY different then, a real transition point in football in general, and southern football in particular.
Just as an example, I believe it would be fair to say that in that time period, Duke had the best defensive backfield in the ACC...it was stellar (and if I'm wrong I'm sure messieurs Olympic and Sumner will correct me),
and three of the four were white kids: Hannenberg, Searl and Davies. Not too many years later and you'd be hard pressed to find any white defensive backs in the league, much less three genuine all stars.

[roywhite]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

Agree with most of those observations from the late 1960's and early 1970's.

ATO did have a fair number of football players. Leo Hart and Wes Chesson, for example, were ATO's. There were also players at Phi Delt and Phi Kappa Sigma; the real problems did come mainly from KA during that time, and they were disbanded.

[formerdukeathlete]

Indeed, desegregation played a major role. Things were VERY different then, a real transition point in football in general, and southern football in particular.
Just as an example, I believe it would be fair to say that in that time period, Duke had the best defensive backfield in the ACC...it was stellar (and if I'm wrong I'm sure messieurs Olympic and Sumner will correct me),
and three of the four where white kids: Hannenberg, Searl and Davies. Not too many years later and you'd be hard pressed to find any white defensive backs in the league, much less three genuine all stars.

Willie Hodge, Gene Banks, Ernie Jackson were among the African American athletes at Duke during the 70s. Edgar Burch lived across the hall from me freshman year. The Swimming Team at Duke had the only two African American swimmers in the ACC at the time. In the mid to late 70s I did not see what Jim referred to as a perception of an uncongenial atmosphere at Duke. One year Omega Psi Phi was housed in the third floor of the Delt section. Undergraduate enrollment of African American students was substantial, though majority women at the time. I think if anything affected recruiting it may have been more so that Duke was located in the formerly segregated South.

I believe when Duke recruited Butch Lee he loved the atmosphere at Duke, and almost came. In the end he just could not get over the dismal 73-74 record.

We do compete with Stanford for Football recruits, and if we were to win more games, we would be in the running with them for elite recruits more often than we are now. A substantial number of their Football team belong to one frat primarily, and another secondarily. Skov, who had been offered by Duke, had the problem of a DUI on their campus. But, I dont think the team is staying drunk, missing class, or doing poorly academically. The fraternity house of the primarily football team frat is university owned and kegs are allowed.

[jimsumner]

Willie Hodge, Gene Banks, Ernie Jackson were among the African American athletes at Duke during the 70s. Edgar Burch lived across the hall from me freshman year. The Swimming Team at Duke had the only two African American swimmers in the ACC at the time. In the mid to late 70s I did not see what Jim referred to as a perception of an uncongenial atmosphere at Duke. One year Omega Psi Phi was housed in the third floor of the Delt section. Undergraduate enrollment of African American students was substantial, though majority women at the time. I think if anything affected recruiting it may have been more so that Duke was located in the formerly segregated South.

I believe when Duke recruited Butch Lee he loved the atmosphere at Duke, and almost came. In the end he just could not get over the dismal 73-74 record.

We do compete with Stanford for Football recruits, and if we were to win more games, we would be in the running with them for elite recruits more often than we are now. A substantial number of their Football team belong to one frat primarily, and another secondarily. Skov, who had been offered by Duke, had the problem of a DUI on their campus. But, I dont think the team is staying drunk, missing class, or doing poorly academically. The fraternity house of the primarily football team frat is university owned and kegs are allowed.

Interesting that you use Edgar Burch to support your point. He left Duke following his freshman season.

Let's take a look at Duke's first African American basketball recruits.

C.B. Claiborne was a walk-on, the first black basketball player at a Big Four school.

Don Blackman was the first recruited African American hoopster. He transferred to Rhode Island following his sophomore season.

Sam May didn't make it out of his freshman season. He was in the Chris Redding class.

Willie Hodge stayed for four seasons and was a good player.

Burch transferred after one season.

George Moses came in as a juco, played half-a season, became academically ineligible for the second semester. He returned for his senior season and was a starter.

Kenny Young transferred after his sophomore season.

So, four of the first six recruited African American basketball players transferred before their junior years and a fifth had academic trouble. Duke didn't have a single black player in 1972, my senior season and had five white recruited players on the freshman team.

Harold Morrison was a solid four-year player. He was the only black player on the 1977 team. The only one. Maryland had six black players in its rotation that same year.

While, this was going on, Duke was playing against the likes of David Thompson, Mo Rivers, Phil Spence, Kenny Carr, Charlie Scott, Robert McAdoo, Billy Chamberlain, Walter Davis, Phil Ford, Len Elmore, John Lucas, Maurice Howard, Steve Sheppard, Tree Rollins, Skip Wise, Charlie Davis, Gil McGregor, Skip Brown, Rod Griffith, et. al.

These were the guys who preceded Gene Banks. Banks has told me a number of times that he had to fight the perception that Duke was a country club. Bucky Waters, Bill Foster and Mike McGee have told me how difficult it was to dispel the racial stereotypes of Duke and recruit top-flight African American athletes. They had successes to be sure, Gene Banks and Mike Dunn were about as high-profile as recruits could be in the 1970s.

But not enough. As Jalen Rose can attest, the stereotypes still exist. Younger readers can imagine how it was back in the days when prominent fraternities hung Confederate flags from the windows.

[Olympic Fan]

Indeed, desegregation played a major role. Things were VERY different then, a real transition point in football in general, and southern football in particular.
Just as an example, I believe it would be fair to say that in that time period, Duke had the best defensive backfield in the ACC...it was stellar (and if I'm wrong I'm sure messieurs Olympic and Sumner will correct me),
and three of the four were white kids: Hannenberg, Searl and Davies. Not too many years later and you'd be hard pressed to find any white defensive backs in the league, much less three genuine all stars.

You nailed it -- that 1970-71 backfield was the best in Duke history (at least, it was the best in the two-platoon era, which started in the mid-1960s) and clearly the best in the ACC -- onsidering that Duke put three of the four DBs on the first All-ACC team.

Ernie Jackson was, of course, a first-team consensus All-American at corner and was the 1971 ACC player of the year. Oddly, he didn't really blossom into a star until his senior season (that was the only year he made All-ACC). Pretty sure Ernie was the second black recruited to play football at Duke and was the first to play. The first black recruit -- I believe his name was Bill Turner -- suffered a career-ending knee injury before he ever played a varsity game.

The other corner was Bill Hanenberg, a soph in 1970 and a junior in 1971. Just personal opinion, but Bill Hanenberg was the hardest-hitting corner I've ever seen. He hit a lot like Matt Daniels and he covered so well that he was first-team All-ACC in 1971 and as a senior in 1972.

The free safety was Rich Searl (1969-71), who was until Jackson's explosion in 1971 regarded as the best of the bunch. He was a THREE-TIME first team All-ACC pick. Searl was heavily recruited by Penn State, where Joe Paterno reportedly wanted him to play quarterback. Searl did play some quarterback in 1971, when starter Dennis Satyshur was hurt. He and Jackson both went two ways in the latter half of that season.

The fourth starter was strong safety Mike Davies (1969-71), who didn't win any honors (he probably would have been second team All-ACC in 1970 and 1971, but they didn't start picking a second team until 1988), but his nine career interceptions are the eighth best in Duke history. Good tackler and a good cover guy. I believe his young brother became an All-American DB at Ohio State.

Together, they were magnificant -- as John Reaves and Don Bunce found out.

[formerdukeathlete]

Interesting that you use Edgar Burch to support your point. He left Duke following his freshman season.

........

Burch was a pretty unique situation. I recall he fell a bit ill and missed the last 4 games his freshman year. I believe he would have been academically ineligible his first semester sophomore year. He was not that happy at Duke, from speaking with him, missed Michigan. (He did like the social / dating opportunties, however.) So, the combination of factors, did not like losing as well, lead him to leave. Then he went to Michigan and left the basketball team there before playing, as I recall. He was talented. Perhaps better than Tate Armstrong.

[jafarr1]

One of the frustrating things about Duke football the past couple of years has been the number of injuries suffered before the season. Obviously the Holliday injury was a fluke (and tragic) thing, but we've likely also lost Braxton Deaver for the season with a fractured kneecap. That makes a pair of (projected) starting receivers lost already.

Allen Jackson, an incoming freshman DE, is slated to have surgery as well.

Hopefully we don't see another rash of injuries like we did last year.

[jimsumner]

Burch was a pretty unique situation. I recall he fell a bit ill and missed the last 4 games his freshman year. I believe he would have been academically ineligible his first semester sophomore year. He was not that happy at Duke, from speaking with him, missed Michigan. (He did like the social / dating opportunties, however.) So, the combination of factors, did not like losing as well, lead him to leave. Then he went to Michigan and left the basketball team there before playing, as I recall. He was talented. Perhaps better than Tate Armstrong.

Burch and Armstrong were classmates and Burch started ahead of Armstrong when both were freshmen. A tantalizing might-have-been.

[jimsumner]

Assorted and sundry updates from Duke press release, 7-11.

'Duke redshirt sophomore tight end Braxton Deaver underwent successful surgery on Tuesday to repair a fracture of his left patella. He suffered the injury on Monday during a team workout.

“Our sympathies certainly lie with Braxton as this is his third surgical procedure in the past six months,” said Duke head coach David Cutcliffe, referring to Deaver’s surgery to repair a torn anterior cruciate ligament in January, and an operation to mend a fractured thumb in June. “Right now our focus with Braxton is to get well, and not worry about getting back on the football field. As we all know, injuries are a part of football, and now I expect our younger players to step into more significant roles.”

Dr. Dean Taylor, a Duke Athletics team physician and Professor of Surgery in the Division of Orthopaedic Surgery with the Duke University School of Medicine, performed Deaver’s operation on Tuesday afternoon.

A projected starter in 2012, Deaver caught eight passes for 107 yards while playing in all 12 games last season. An Academic All-ACC pick, he was one of three recipients of the Sonny Falcone Iron Duke Award, a team honor presented annually to one offensive player, one defensive player and one player in the developmental program for their year-round commitment to strength training and conditioning.

Cutcliffe also announced that incoming freshman defensive end Allen Jackson suffered a shoulder injury during team workouts and will undergo surgery at a later date.

In addition, Sean Schroeder, a quarterback in the Blue Devil program for the past three years, will play his final two seasons of eligibility at the University of Hawaii. Schroeder graduated from Duke this past May and is eligible to participate for the Rainbows in 2012 as a graduate student.

“We wish Sean nothing but the best as he continues his college football career at Hawaii after making great contributions to our program for three years,” Cutcliffe said. “We spent time during the spring trying to find him an opportunity, and now we’ll definitely be pulling for the Rainbows on Saturdays. Norm Chow and I are longtime friends, and I couldn’t be more excited for Sean to have the chance to learn and play for one of the finest coaches in the country.” "

[Olympic Fan]

For a pass oriented team, this has been a disastrous off-season for Duke.

The staff had a lot of faith in Deaver at tight end. He was just about the only experienced player at the position. Jack Ferrell has some experience, but he missed all last season and all spring with an injury and was basically a blocker anyway. I know they have a lot of confidence in David Reeves and Issac Blakeney, but neither has played a snap in a varsity game. It's very possible that a true freshman TE might have to play -- Dan Bielinson would seem to be the most ready.

Holliday's injury -- coupled with Tyree Watkins' dismissal -- really hurts the depth at WR. Conner Vernon is a star and Jamison Crowder should be great, but Holliday was the team's best receiver in spring (when Vernon was out). Maybe Nick Sink or Corey Gattis culd help fill the gap, but Holliday's injury might force the staff to move Brandon Braxton (40 catches last year) back to WR. That would be too bad -- he was actually fairly pedestrian as a receiver, butwas very impressive at safety.

I guess that might depend on how quickly both Max McCaffrey and Anthony Nash are ready to contribute. Two true freshmen with A LOT of potential ... but still true freshmen.

[jimsumner]

For a pass oriented team, this has been a disastrous off-season for Duke.

The staff had a lot of faith in Deaver at tight end. He was just about the only experienced player at the position. Jack Ferrell has some experience, but he missed all last season and all spring with an injury and was basically a blocker anyway. I know they have a lot of confidence in David Reeves and Issac Blakeney, but neither has played a snap in a varsity game. It's very possible that a true freshman TE might have to play -- Dan Bielinson would seem to be the most ready.

Holliday's injury -- coupled with Tyree Watkins' dismissal -- really hurts the depth at WR. Conner Vernon is a star and Jamison Crowder should be great, but Holliday was the team's best receiver in spring (when Vernon was out). Maybe Nick Sink or Corey Gattis culd help fill the gap, but Holliday's injury might force the staff to move Brandon Braxton (40 catches last year) back to WR. That would be too bad -- he was actually fairly pedestrian as a receiver, butwas very impressive at safety.

I guess that might depend on how quickly both Max McCaffrey and Anthony Nash are ready to contribute. Two true freshmen with A LOT of potential ... but still true freshmen.

I think you mean Nick Hill. If Nick Sink plays WR, then Duke is in real trouble.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Assorted and sundry updates from Duke press release, 7-11.

In addition, Sean Schroeder, a quarterback in the Blue Devil program for the past three years, will play his final two seasons of eligibility at the University of Hawaii. Schroeder graduated from Duke this past May and is eligible to participate for the Rainbows in 2012 as a graduate student.

“We wish Sean nothing but the best as he continues his college football career at Hawaii after making great contributions to our program for three years,” Cutcliffe said. “We spent time during the spring trying to find him an opportunity, and now we’ll definitely be pulling for the Rainbows on Saturdays. Norm Chow and I are longtime friends, and I couldn’t be more excited for Sean to have the chance to learn and play for one of the finest coaches in the country.” "

Thanks for the updates Jim. As for Sean Schroeder, he came in highly touted and redshirted his freshman year, following Sean Renfree's example the year before. He saw his first (and only) "action" last year in a mop up roll in a lopsided victory early in the year. I met Sean's mom (and her twin sister) after the FIU game in Miami last fall waiting for the players to come out of the locker room and had a chance to talk with them for a few minutes. I thanked them for Sean's dedication to the program and we discussed how his career hadn't turned out quite like he had envisioned it, playing time wise. So I'm thrilled for Schroeder to get an opportunity to play in another program, and Chow is known as an offensive genius. In fact, he had been on some peoples' wish lists for the Duke job (mine included) before Coach Cut was hired. Good luck Sean! :cool:

[Reilly]

For a pass oriented team, this has been a disastrous off-season for Duke....

Generally, in college football, I like wide-open offenses and prefer the pass to the run. I've long thought Duke needed to be pass-happy to be competitive. I loved Spurrier. All that said, even before this week with the tragic BHoliday news, and now BDeaver news, I thought Duke 2012 should be much more of a running team than in the recent past.

Here are the RBs from the goduke roster:

34 Eric Adams RB 5-8 170 So.
30 Greg DeLuca RB 6-2 200 Sr.
25 Jela Duncan RB 5-10 200 Fr.
43 Patrick Kurunwune RB 5-9 230
28 Shaquille Powell RB 5-10 205
33 Desmond Scott RB 5-9 190 Sr.
9 Josh Snead RB 5-9 190 RSo.
23 Juwan Thompson RB 5-11 225 Jr.

Scott, Snead and Thompson have all shown real flashes of being terrific. PK can be a load as a blocker. Shaq Powell and Jela are stud recruits.

Here are the TEs/WRs from the goduke roster:

85 Dan Beilinson TE 6-5 240 Fr.
48 Issac Blakeney TE 6-6 235 RSo.
89 Braxton Deaver TE 6-5 240 RSo.
44 Jack Farrell TE 6-2 225 RJr.
86 Connor Peters TE 6-4 230 So.
80 David Reeves TE 6-5 250 RFr.
88 Erich Schneider TE 6-7 225 Fr.
3 Jamison Crowder WR 5-9 175 So.
14 Corey Gattis WR 5-11 165 RJr.
10 Nick Hill WR 6-2 210 RFr.
8 Blair Holliday WR 6-3 205 So.
87 Max McCaffrey WR 6-1 185 Fr.
83 Anthony Nash WR 6-5 190 Fr.
2 Conner Vernon WR 6-1 200 Sr.
37 Brandon Watkins WR 6-0 200 Jr.
81 Jack Wise WR 6-4 195 So.

CV is tough as nails ... and then there's untested youth, or the injured. Crowder's a spark-plug, but could be used so much on returns, and who knows how the events of the past week will affect him.

In 2008, we were a balanced team (34.2 passes per game, 34.9 runs per game).
In 2009, 2010 and 2011, we passed 41 times per game, and ran 28 to 30 times per game.
(Passes: 41.8, 40.8, 41.1; Runs: 28.3, 31.9, 30.4)

I believe "balance" for the sake of balance is silly -- there are teams that are unbalanced and who pass all the time, and they are good ... and there are teams who are unbalanced and who run all the time, and they are good.

I believe we need to run more in 2012 than we have in the past. That's where our more skilled, more experienced players are. Hopefully the OL is mature enough to run block effectively. We also have running QBs to use in the run game. Interested to see what the pass/run ratio ends up being this year.

[Bob Green]

Congratulations and good luck to Conner Vernon on his inclusion on the Biletnikoff Award watch list. I will be following his numbers all season as CV strives to become the all time ACC leader in career receptions and career receiving yards:

http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/07/conner-vernon-named-to-the-biletnikoff-award-watch-list/

Receptions needed: 34

Yards needed: 842

[mkline09]

Congratulations and good luck to Conner Vernon on his inclusion on the Biletnikoff Award watch list. I will be following his numbers all season as CV strives to become the all time ACC leader in career receptions and career receiving yards:

http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/07/conner-vernon-named-to-the-biletnikoff-award-watch-list/

Receptions needed: 34

Yards needed: 842

A most deserved honor for Conner. You hit the Conner on the head. He is as tough as a Conner Vernon. The kid goes across the middle and takes hit after hit. He makes great catches he is a leader. He is an old time football players' football player. The kid would be a house hold name if he played for a premier football program, but he is certainly a big reason expections are high for the football team this season.

I really hope he can influence Anthony Nash. Of all the young players a kid with that size and speed could be a real weapon and who better for him to learn from than Duke's soon to be, most accomplished wide receiver (statisically speaking).

[OldPhiKap]

Congratulations and good luck to Conner Vernon on his inclusion on the Biletnikoff Award watch list. I will be following his numbers all season as CV strives to become the all time ACC leader in career receptions and career receiving yards:

http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/07/conner-vernon-named-to-the-biletnikoff-award-watch-list/

Receptions needed: 34

Yards needed: 842

Go Conner Go!!!!!!

[sagegrouse]

Before Goldsmith took the Duke job he was concerned about whether the Duke Football players had a good time in college, because his Rice players had commented that the lack of a good time was their chief complaint at attending and playing for Rice. Steve Spurrier's son assured Fred that players had a good time at Duke. Then Nan pulled out the rug from under him. And, this killed recruiting, for him, Franks. Roof was a great recruiter. He did his best. He had Yoh to sell and the prospects for a turnaround. He landed a class in 05 ranked in the low 30s, but, without the turnaround, things went south from there. Even with Tom Hart, Mike McGee, Red Wilson, recruiting classes ranked in the 30s were common.

.

Random thoughts:

You also commented on my lack of first-hand knowledge of football recruiting at Duke in the 1980's, which is true, inasmuch as I was on campus only three times that decade.

Actually, WRT fraternities, I thought that many athletes joined fraternities based on Central Campus -- not exactly Times Square at Duke. But my data is from the mid-90s and maybe the Q-Dogs have moved.

But never mind, you will never get me to agree that merely shifting residential addresses of fraternities has any effect whatsoever on football recruiting or anything else. I have noticed over the years that fraternities are shuffled every 7-10 years. When I first returned to Duke for my 20th reunion, only one fraternity (Kappa Sig?) was in the same place they were 20 years before. (But maybe that was the reason we won three ACC football championships when I was at Duke and hardly ever since.)

And I know a little about football players at Rice, since back in the day I spent four years there in grad school. Rice does not have small living groups like fraternities and sororities. The residential colleges are around 300 students. The organized social life, in comparison to the Duke cabin parties, was non-existent. Moreover, most Rice athletes majored in commerce and phys. ed., two academic programs not available to non-athletes.

sagegrouse

[Lid]

You hit the Conner on the head.

Please don't do that. We don't need him injured this year.

[mkline09]

Please don't do that. We don't need him injured this year.

Conner Vernon can't be injured by any means created by mortal man, so no real worries.

[OldPhiKap]

Conner Vernon can't be injured by any means created by mortal man, so no real worries.

Of course, Nate James is not a mortal man. But other than that . . . .

[formerdukeathlete]

Random thoughts:

You also commented on my lack of first-hand knowledge of football recruiting at Duke in the 1980's, which is true, inasmuch as I was on campus only three times that decade.

Actually, WRT fraternities, I thought that many athletes joined fraternities based on Central Campus -- not exactly Times Square at Duke. But my data is from the mid-90s and maybe the Q-Dogs have moved.

But never mind, you will never get me to agree that merely shifting residential addresses of fraternities has any effect whatsoever on football recruiting or anything else. I have noticed over the years that fraternities are shuffled every 7-10 years. When I first returned to Duke for my 20th reunion, only one fraternity (Kappa Sig?) was in the same place they were 20 years before. (But maybe that was the reason we won three ACC football championships when I was at Duke and hardly ever since.)

And I know a little about football players at Rice, since back in the day I spent four years there in grad school. Rice does not have small living groups like fraternities and sororities. The residential colleges are around 300 students. The organized social life, in comparison to the Duke cabin parties, was non-existent. Moreover, most Rice athletes majored in commerce and phys. ed., two academic programs not available to non-athletes.

sagegrouse

Fraternities were moved around at Duke, over the years, primarily when their memberships and residential demand either were too small or too large for their section of University owned housing. Occassionally, sections were moved as some sort of punishment, but this was very rare. For example, KA was disbanded, and then Tau Epsilon Psi put in its stead.

To my knowledge, when KA disbanded, virtually all Football players interested in joining a frat gravitated to the main quad frats, ATO and Phi Delt, and it was like this for at least 25 years.

Janet Reitman who wrote the Rolling Stone piece on Duke fraternity and sorority student life has written a piece on Dartmouth,
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/confessions-of-an-ivy-league-frat-boy-inside-dartmouths-hazing-abuses-20120328

I must say that with the exception of the excesses, drugs, suggestions of assault, it sounds pretty darn fun up there. Dartmouth Football mentions student life (as best in the Ivy League) in their Football recruiting, even now, for sure. Football recruits attend fraternity parties there, I can speak to this as friend of mine has a child on the team at Dartmouth, and another is being recruited by Dartmouth for Football right now.

In my 11 plus years interviewing for Duke in New England spanning Sanford, Brodie and Keohane, we competed directly with Dartmouth, Brown and Penn for students looking for a good time in college. I believe our yields approached 50% among jointly admitted applicants at the time.

Due to the influence of powerful alums, Dartmouth treads fairly lightly when dealing with fraternities. So does Stanford, where the University would be very reluctant to go after Delta Tau Delta, their Football fraternity, due to the many influential alums who were members, Jim Plunkett, John Elway, and the list goes on and on.

What Nan did to fraternities, including the Football fraternities, caught alums and even Trustees by surprise. I dont think she would have been hired had some Trustees known that this would have been her agenda. It was too rash, student life took a big hit, as did Football recruiting, I do believe.


I did not realize that about Rice, that they had a Health and Phs. Ed major.

[CameronBornAndBred]

44 days to go!!!

[Bob Green]

Congratulations and good luck to Sean Renfree on his inclusion on the Davey O'Brien Award watch list:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205503263&DB_OEM_ID=4200

I'm looking forward to watching the Renfree to Vernon connection this season.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Congratulations and good luck to Sean Renfree on his inclusion on the Davey O'Brien Award watch list:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205503263&DB_OEM_ID=4200

I'm looking forward to watching the Renfree to Vernon connection this season.

Ditto. If Sean hopes to be in NFL camps in the spring this has to be the year he makes it all come together. Obviously he has the talent and arm to be in the NFL, but does he have the mentality? Meaning does he curtail the turnovers? Cutcliffe talked about him in Heather Dinich's blog yesterday.

“You can’t play afraid,” Cutcliffe said. “You’re going to throw more interceptions playing a little cautious than you are playing aggressively in my opinion. Because when you play aggressively, you tend to throw the ball on time. There’s no afterthoughts. Most of his interceptions came on afterthought throws. We’re going to eliminate those.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/40825/duke-qb-looking-to-be-more-decisive

[Bob Green]

If Sean hopes to be in NFL camps in the spring this has to be the year he makes it all come together.

For Duke to put together a bowl game qualifying season, Renfree needs to blow up as a senior and lead the team. I'm optimistic he can and will do it.

[OldPhiKap]

For Duke to put together a bowl game qualifying season, Renfree needs to blow up as a senior and lead the team. I'm optimistic he can and will do it.

Agreed, and agreed.

We have a good group of upperclassmen and a lot of young talent. Opening Day is coming soon!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

For Duke to put together a bowl game qualifying season, Renfree needs to blow up as a senior and lead the team. I'm optimistic he can and will do it.

For Renfree to have the type of season we need him to have, he needs to play with his head up and in the open air, as opposed to the other place he tends to put it, as his mother and I have discussed over the last couple of years. :rolleyes: Several of you, CB&B, have been ear-witnesses to those discussions! :cool:

[Bob Green]

The 2012 Media Guide is available for download at GoDuke:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22695&SPID=1843&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205503817

[riddle me this]

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/41237/acc-announces-preseason-all-conference-team

Conner Vernon chosen with 41 out of 68 possible votes. The other receiver, Sammy Watkins from Clemson, was the only unanimous selection, receiving 68 votes and was also named ACC Preseason Player of the Year. Way to go Conner!

In other news, he also lost a lot of weight and is listed as 19 lbs. I guess he won't be used for blocking much this year... and I am really praying for no strong winds during games... Do we also weigh in cinder-blocks?

[Bob Green]

Practice commences later today so it is time to bump this thread to the top with discussion on Coach Cutcliffe's optimism expressed in this N&O article:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/05/2248480/entering-fifth-season-at-duke.html


Cutcliffe feels this year’s team features the most talent and experience since he arrived at Duke and said during July’s ACC media days that the Blue Devils “absolutely” have what it takes to secure a bowl berth.

The bowl game journey commences today.

[airowe]

The bowl game journey commences today.

If Duke's going to make a bowl game, these two guys are going to have to lead them to it.

2737 2738

[Indoor66]

If Duke's going to make a bowl game, these two guys are going to have to lead them to it.

2737 2738

And thus it will always be. The players get you there.

[Bob Green]

If Duke's going to make a bowl game, these two guys are going to have to lead them to it.

My number one concern is the middle of the defense. With the graduation of Matt Daniels and Charlie Hatcher, plus injuries to Kelby Brown and Jamal Bruce, some youngsters are going to have to step up and perform. We must be able to stop the opponent's offense in key 3rd down situations so Renfree and Vernon can come back on the field.

[airowe]

My number one concern is the middle of the defense. With the graduation of Matt Daniels and Charlie Hatcher, plus injuries to Kelby Brown and Jamal Bruce, some youngsters are going to have to step up and perform. We must be able to stop the opponent's offense in key 3rd down situations so Renfree and Vernon can come back on the field.

I'd expect Keilin Rayner would get some looks early on at the linebacker spot. Not to mention Sam Marshal, the 6'7" 270lb redshirt freshman who will absolutely be counted on to perform on the line. That is a big, big boy. With 12 guys on the roster as "linebackers" (well, 11 with Kelby out) and us playing the 4-2-5, I'd expect there to be some "linebackers" creeping up to the line. Rayner's already our biggest guy at the LB spot, maybe he could cheat up to the middle when/if he's in.

The loss to Bruce hurts an already thin defensive front. Sarmiento and Sink will have to continue their solid play and Carols Wray may be counted on earlier than he should be. I believe Jim Sumner mentioned some of the ends moving into the interior too. Maybe Cody Robinson can move to the defensive side of the ball if needed?

[airowe]

I'd expect Keilin Rayner would get some looks early on at the linebacker spot. With 12 guys on the roster as "linebackers" (well, 11 with Kelby out) and us playing the 4-2-5, I'd expect there to be some "linebackers" creeping up to the line. Rayner's already our biggest guy at the LB spot, maybe he could cheat up to the middle when/if he's in.

As I was saying.. https://twitter.com/Duke_FB/status/232520091739234304


Keilin Rayner moves from LB to NG; Jamal Wallace from DE to DT. Also, RB Desmond Scott & QB Brandon Connette will play multiple positions

[Olympic Fan]

It's been kind of funny -- all the speculation has been about Rayner at LB and Anthony Nash at WR -- both are great prospects, but I keep telling people that Max McCaffrey is far more ready to play at WR than Nash and that Deion Williams is more ready to play than Rayner -- at least at LB.

Rayner played as much DE as LB in high school. Although projected as a great LB, he has a long way to go. It's kind of like Kelby Brown and his brother, Kyler. The "little" brother is actually bigger and faster than Kelby -- but Kelby has been a LB all his life with LB instincts and LB experience. Kyler played DE until his last year in high school. He arrived without the experience at the position to mkae the kind of impact that Kelby did. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have better long-term potential -- he might! -- but it's going to take longer to realize. Same with Rayner vs. Williams at LB.

FWIW, Cut said Rayner reported to camp at 267 pounds (he's 6-foot-3). It would be great if he could eventualy return to LB, but if a freshman is going to help there this season, it's going to be Williams.

Very similar at WR. Nash -- a 6-5, 190 guy with 4.25 speed in the 40 -- has better long-term potential, but McCaffrery, whose measurables are still pretty good (6-1, 185, sub 4.5 speed), is more ready to play. Of course, with the loss of Holliday, looks like we'll need both.

Bad news in the injury situation. Three defensive starters are not ready to start practice -- Bruce (the best-case seems to be a return sometime in September), Kelby Brown (good chance he redshirts) and Jordan DeWalt-Ondijo (no idea when he's back). That's 50 percent of the front six. Offensively, Holliday and Deaver are out for the season. Luke Patrick, who had a great spring before he got hurt, is not yet ready to go, but should be available soon.

The good news is that several players who struggled with injuries last year are full speed and ready to go, including Lee Butler, Josh Snead (stronger and faster than ever) and Brian Moore.

[airowe]

Bad news in the injury situation. Three defensive starters are not ready to start practice -- Bruce (the best-case seems to be a return sometime in September), Kelby Brown (good chance he redshirts) and Jordan DeWalt-Ondijo (no idea when he's back). That's 50 percent of the front six. Offensively, Holliday and Deaver are out for the season. Luke Patrick, who had a great spring before he got hurt, is not yet ready to go, but should be available soon.

Really hope we can get JDO back soon. He was playing well at the end of last year.

OlyFan, what's your opinion on Cody Robinson? Any ideas on how much/where he might play?

[CameronBornAndBred]

If Duke's going to make a bowl game, these two guys are going to have to lead them to it.

2737 2738
I know what you are saying, and I agree. Kind of. We will need their leadership..but for Duke to make a bowl game we are going to need to see the unexpected from players that we have yet to get to know. We know Vernon WILL get it done. We know Renfree CAN get it done, and our opponents do too. So we need to be surprised by players that will be equally surprising to other teams. Of course with so many injuries and expected starters down early it's not a stretch to expect that we'll have some new stars on our team very soon.

[airowe]

I know what you are saying, and I agree. Kind of. We will need their leadership..but for Duke to make a bowl game we are going to need to see the unexpected from players that we have yet to get to know. We know Vernon WILL get it done. We know Renfree CAN get it done, and our opponents do too. So we need to be surprised by players that will be equally surprising to other teams. Of course with so many injuries and expected starters down early it's not a stretch to expect that we'll have some new stars on our team very soon.

Definitely agree there. I was more leaning to the leadership factor as you mentioned, at least on offense.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I like this move a lot. If his hands are good he will be great threat to open up the field with his speed.


“Coach (Kurt) Roper said, ‘you’re no longer a running back, you play wide receiver,’ and that was that,” said Scott, adding that he had worked a bit at the position in the spring. “No reluctance at all. I embraced it with open arms. I played it in high school. Of course there’s a difference between playing in high school and playing in college, but with this move, goals that I have are so much closer.”http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/06/2251177/dukes-scott-switching-to-wide.html

[markbdevil]

The key to Duke's season is the very first game. They have to beat FIU. This team needs confidence and starting 1-0 would do wonders. Remember the Richmond game from last year. If Duke can beat FIU, I think they have a real shot at being 5-1 before going to Va. Tech. It's way past time to beat WF and UNC.
Otherwise, another 3-9 season looms.
But I will be in Wally Wade just like I have for the last 40+ years.
GO DUKE!

[airowe]

The key to Duke's season is the very first game. They have to beat FIU. This team needs confidence and starting 1-0 would do wonders. Remember the Richmond game from last year. If Duke can beat FIU, I think they have a real shot at being 5-1 before going to Va. Tech. It's way past time to beat WF and UNC.
Otherwise, another 3-9 season looms.
But I will be in Wally Wade just like I have for the last 40+ years.
GO DUKE!

FIU is receiving votes in the AP Top 25, so it won't be easy. That said, I agree.

FWIW, Duke is favored to win the game by 4 points in Vegas.

[Sixthman]

The key to Duke's season is the very first game. They have to beat FIU. This team needs confidence and starting 1-0 would do wonders. Remember the Richmond game from last year. If Duke can beat FIU, I think they have a real shot at being 5-1 before going to Va. Tech. It's way past time to beat WF and UNC.
Otherwise, another 3-9 season looms.
But I will be in Wally Wade just like I have for the last 40+ years.
GO DUKE!

I agree. What I wish for more than anything is a convincing win in which we are the better team on both sides of the ball. While on the one hand, a win is a win, I think that the confidence that would come from a nice 35- 10 win against someone early in the season would make it easier to win the close ones late in the season. A good win against FIU would help recruiting as well (who would have guessed that five years ago?) The injuries are discouraging, but winning football is about people stepping in and stepping up in these situations.

[Bob Green]

Al Featherston has penned an article on Duke's secondary:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205569738&DB_OEM_ID=4200


Is it possible that Duke can be stronger in the secondary this season...

It is another in a long line of solid articles from Al.

[Bob Green]

The N&O has a good article up on Desmond Scott and his move to receiver:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/06/2251177/dukes-scott-switching-to-wide.html

[CameronBornAndBred]

The N&O has a good article up on Desmond Scott and his move to receiver:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/06/2251177/dukes-scott-switching-to-wide.html

Oooh..that looks familiar!

I like this move a lot. If his hands are good he will be great threat to open up the field with his speed.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/06/2251177/dukes-scott-switching-to-wide.html

:rolleyes: I'm really looking forward to seeing him in this position. The more I think about it the more it excites me. Renfree has a tendency (hopefully that is now "had") to overthrow, but Scott has the speed to chase a long ball down. This could really open the field up for our offense.

[Bob Green]

Oooh..that looks familiar!


:rolleyes: I'm really looking forward to seeing him in this position. The more I think about it the more it excites me. Renfree has a tendency (hopefully that is now "had") to overthrow, but Scott has the speed to chase a long ball down. This could really open the field up for our offense.

That article is so good I decided it needed to be linked twice. :D

Conner Vernon is going to be double teamed every play unless Renfree has legitimate options on the other side of the field. Scott has the speed and hands to burn defenses if they focus solely upon Vernon. This decision to move Scott to wide receiver fuels my optimism, which is always over-the-top. For starters, it indicates to me Coach Cutcliffe is dedicated to defense this season or he would have opted to move Brandon Braxton back to receiver. Additionally, I believe this is a solid indication the staff believes Josh Snead is 100% healthy and ready to be an impact running back.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Additionally, I believe this is a solid indication the staff believes Josh Snead is 100% healthy and ready to be an impact running back.
That's an excellent point. I hope he has a wonderful year, it's been so long since we've had a running game worth talking about.

[jimsumner]

It's interesting that people are focusing on WR, when tight end might be a bigger problem. Remember, Cooper Helfet caught 43 passes last season, so it is a position of importance for the passing game.

But he's gone, Danny Parker is gone and Braxton Deaver is out for the season.

Duke still has Vernon and Crowder at WR, a couple of promising freshmen and now Desmond Scott.

Corey Gattis has more college receptions than Duke's entire tight-end component. (it lost 3 yards!!) Anthony Boone has more career receptions than all of Duke's tight ends.

What does Duke have at tight end?

Redshirt freshman David Reeves.

Redshirt sophomore Isaac Blakeney, who hasn't played a real football game since 2009 and was moved from defense.

Redshirt junior Jack Farrell, who missed most of last season with an injury. Unlike Reeves and Blakeney, Farrell has actually played college football, but as a blocker. He's never caught a pass at the college level. He caught a modest 13 passes his senior year in high school.

A walk-on or two and a pair of promising freshmen. But promising freshmen tend to play earlier at WR than at TE. One of Duke's freshmen tight ends is 6-7, 220, which doesn't exactly scream ready-to-block-ACC-defenders.

Reeves and Blakeney are very good athletes for that position and I heard lots of good things about Reeves last season. But are any of these guys ready for prime time? Duke's schedule is front-loaded and Duke really needs to get Ws in September. These guys have to hit the ground running.

A real concern, IMO.

[jafarr1]

Despite losing Holliday and Watkins this off-season, we've got some exciting players at WR. Vernon is a stud. Crowder showed real promise at a play-maker last year. Nick Hill won the third WR job over Holliday coming out of spring, which was a bit of a surprise. McCaffery is polished enough to contribute as a freshman, and he's certainly got the bloodlines to expect good things from him. And seeing Cockrell's face when he spoke about Nash's speed was priceless.

Now that we've added Scott, we have a group that should be able to punish opposing defenses if they focus too much on Vernon.

I'm with Jim. The far bigger concern is TE, especially since one of the keys to Duke's season is doing better in the red zone.

[airowe]

It's interesting that people are focusing on WR, when tight end might be a bigger problem. Remember, Cooper Helfet caught 43 passes last season, so it is a position of importance for the passing game.

Cooper would have caught more balls than that if he'd held on to them.

I agree it is an issue. Connette lined up at tight end in the Spring game. Do you see that happening often/occasionally in real games? I know it's not ideal, but he had almost the entire last season to work on practically nothing but his lower body, agility and conditioning with his shoulder injury. I'm interested to see how he adjusts to the position.

I'm a little bullish on David Reeves, with no real reason other than he was a coveted recruit out of high school.

[Bob Green]

It's interesting that people are focusing on WR, when tight end might be a bigger problem...What does Duke have at tight end?

A real concern, IMO.

I share your concern with Tight End. Perhaps Lady Luck will side with us and one of the freshmen will step up big and catch a lot of passes. We also need productive blocking from the TE to assist the offensive line in opening up holes for the running backs so Jack Ferrell's blocking experience is a plus.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I am confident we will be in every game and have a chance to run the table. :) I can't believe the rest of the nation does not realize that Duke is the Stanford of the South in more ways than one.

GO DUKE!!

[OldPhiKap]

It's interesting that people are focusing on WR, when tight end might be a bigger problem. Remember, Cooper Helfet caught 43 passes last season, so it is a position of importance for the passing game.

But he's gone, Danny Parker is gone and Braxton Deaver is out for the season.

Duke still has Vernon and Crowder at WR, a couple of promising freshmen and now Desmond Scott.

Corey Gattis has more college receptions than Duke's entire tight-end component. (it lost 3 yards!!) Anthony Boone has more career receptions than all of Duke's tight ends.

What does Duke have at tight end?

Redshirt freshman David Reeves.

Redshirt sophomore Isaac Blakeney, who hasn't played a real football game since 2009 and was moved from defense.

Redshirt junior Jack Farrell, who missed most of last season with an injury. Unlike Reeves and Blakeney, Farrell has actually played college football, but as a blocker. He's never caught a pass at the college level. He caught a modest 13 passes his senior year in high school.

A walk-on or two and a pair of promising freshmen. But promising freshmen tend to play earlier at WR than at TE. One of Duke's freshmen tight ends is 6-7, 220, which doesn't exactly scream ready-to-block-ACC-defenders.

Reeves and Blakeney are very good athletes for that position and I heard lots of good things about Reeves last season. But are any of these guys ready for prime time? Duke's schedule is front-loaded and Duke really needs to get Ws in September. These guys have to hit the ground running.

A real concern, IMO.

Excellent points, let me ask a follow-up.

Duke had very good WRs last year, and my (untrained) guess is that we featured the TE in part because of the tougher coverage downfield.

If this is true (and anyone can refute that, if a bad assumption) -- can we counter any "weakness" at TE through other means? Empty backfield, Wheel Play, RB flaring out or over the top?

Of course, if Sean can hit the WRs downfield, I imagine that about EVERYTHING opens up underneath . . . .

[Olympic Fan]

Despite losing Holliday and Watkins this off-season, we've got some exciting players at WR. Vernon is a stud. Crowder showed real promise at a play-maker last year. Nick Hill won the third WR job over Holliday coming out of spring, which was a bit of a surprise. McCaffery is polished enough to contribute as a freshman, and he's certainly got the bloodlines to expect good things from him. And seeing Cockrell's face when he spoke about Nash's speed was priceless.

I'm sorry, but where did you get this tidbit?

Definitely not true -- Holliday emerged from spring as the clearcut starter (along with Vernon and Jamison). He was in fact voted as Duke's Most Improved Offensive player in spring.

Okay, now that I look, I can see where you might think that. On the depth chart listed on page 6 of the Duke football brochure, Hill is listed as a starter at the Z position.

But that's a mistake (or at least was before Holliday's injury). Not only is that confirmed on page 32 of the same brochure (where the first line of Holliday's bio is "Holliday is slated to start at wide receiver") it was also demonstrated in the spring game. The teams were unevenly divided. The first and second team offense went up against the first and decond team defense. The scrubs went up against the scrubs. Yeah, Hill had a good spring game, but he was playing for the scrubs (against the scrubs). That was how Eric Adams, a 5-8, 170-pound walk-on ended up as the game's leading rusher. Hill wasn't even in the two-deep at wide receiver that afternoon ... and that was with Vernon sitting out the game.

Hopefully, Hill can move up the depth chart and make an impact. But he's not there yet ... and he definitely was not ahead of Holliday.

[jafarr1]

You are correct. I was getting that from the depth chart rather than the player bios, plus he was the first guy Anthony Boone brought up when asked which of the younger WRs had impressed him this summer. (In the same series of interviews, Cockrell talked up Nash, so this wasn't just because Hill was one of only two options.)

Regardless, my point wasn't to trivialize Holliday's loss, which is obviously substantial, but to suggest we had several guys with the potential to step up and contribute. Maybe Hill is only there by process of elimination.

[jimsumner]

You are correct. I was getting that from the depth chart rather than the player bios, plus he was the first guy Anthony Boone brought up when asked which of the younger WRs had impressed him this summer. (In the same series of interviews, Cockrell talked up Nash, so this wasn't just because Hill was one of only two options.)

Regardless, my point wasn't to trivialize Holliday's loss, which is obviously substantial, but to suggest we had several guys with the potential to step up and contribute. Maybe Hill is only there by process of elimination.

Nick Hill had a good spring.

Blair Holliday had a great spring.

[budwom]

Cooper would have caught more balls than that if he'd held on to them.

I agree it is an issue. Connette lined up at tight end in the Spring game. Do you see that happening often/occasionally in real games? I know it's not ideal, but he had almost the entire last season to work on practically nothing but his lower body, agility and conditioning with his shoulder injury. I'm interested to see how he adjusts to the position.

I'm a little bullish on David Reeves, with no real reason other than he was a coveted recruit out of high school.

Yup, Helfet dropped way more passes than he should have last year. It really hurt us.

Indeed, check out GoDuke today, Connette is going to be playing some tight end (and H back, and other stuff) this year. Very good idea. I somehow expect we'll work things out at tight end.
I'm more concerned that we develop more of a deep passing threat. Renfree dumped the ball off WAY too many times last year, and if we expect any kind of success, we'll have to get the ball downfield more.
We have a number of experienced and young prospects at WR, so we'll just have to wait and see who can produce.

[PDDuke85]

Let me jump quickly to the other side of the ball. I thought Cut mentioned the program was awaiting word from the NCAA on Thursday regarding Jeremy Cash and the application for waiver to allow him to play this year. Anyone with news?

[budwom]

Let me jump quickly to the other side of the ball. I thought Cut mentioned the program was awaiting word from the NCAA on Thursday regarding Jeremy Cash and the application for waiver to allow him to play this year. Anyone with news?

Request was denied, though Duke can appeal. Doubt that'll change things, but who knows with the inscrutable NCAA?

[DukeSean]

Request was denied, though Duke can appeal. Doubt that'll change things, but who knows with the inscrutable NCAA?

And I believe Duke does plan to appeal. Bummer for Cash not to be granted waiver, given the circumstances of his transfer.

[Bob Green]

Indeed, check out GoDuke today, Connette is going to be playing some tight end (and H back, and other stuff) this year. Very good idea. I somehow expect we'll work things out at tight end.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205574653&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[Bob Green]

Devils Hold First Practice in Pads:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205576824&DB_OEM_ID=4200

The link contains links to a photo gallery and an interview with cornerback Ross Cockrell.

[pbc2]

Duke held first scrimmage on Monday. No new injuries, which sometimes is the best news at this point in camp.

BDN recap and Coach Cutcliffe interview: http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/08/duke-offense-looks-sharp-in-first-scrimmage-and-other-observations/

GoDuke highlights: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205585816&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[Bob Green]

It is nice to read good comments on the kicking game. We need our return men to break off a few long returns this season and for our punter to consistently pin the opponent deep. Developing consistency on special teams will be a solid indicator the program is developing depth and headed in the right direction.

[airowe]

Duke held first scrimmage on Monday. No new injuries, which sometimes is the best news at this point in camp.

BDN recap and Coach Cutcliffe interview: http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/08/duke-offense-looks-sharp-in-first-scrimmage-and-other-observations/

GoDuke highlights: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205585816&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Observations.

Tim Burton is fast! I'm assuming with the fact that he started at kick returner that he is the #1 guy right now?

I liked the fight that Isaac Blakeney (#17) showed on his first reception. His diving touchdown catch was a thing of beauty as well.

I saw David Helton rushing at Renfree. Will he be a starting LB?

Anthony Nash is a big dude for only being a freshman.

I loved seeing Crowder on that out down the sideline. Hope his attitude stays up all year.

Shaq Powell hit that hole well.

Hell of a diving interception by Lee Butler. Sean can't make that throw in a live game.

Beilinson gave me flashbacks of Helfet when that ball bounced off his hands.

Sirk showed great awareness rolling out of the pocket like he did. Elusive too. Is it odd that Sirk wasn't wearing a red shirt? Were they all out?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I liked the fight that Isaac Blakeney (#17) showed on his first reception. His diving touchdown catch was a thing of beauty as well.


Very happy to 1) know he is back on the team, and 2) to know he is doing well.

Not so happy to hear about the number change, I'm not gonna redo my painting.

2751

[mkline09]

Very happy to 1) know he is back on the team, and 2) to know he is doing well.

Not so happy to hear about the number change, I'm not gonna redo my painting.

2751

Maybe you can keep this one in your rare/limited collection and do a new one with No. 17.

[Bob Green]

Here is a look at the upcoming season from CBS Sports:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19814839/duke-looks-to-finally-snap-bowl-drought

Coach Cutcliffe continues to consistently discuss the need to have multiple playmakers on the field:


Then, you've got five positions surrounding that quarterback that have to be playmakers, and we think we've got competition and quality in that regard. ... That's encouraging. We couldn't always say that.

CBS ranks Duke 103 out of 124 FBS Schools:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/rankings/124/index1

Our FBS opponents and their ranking: Florida State (7), Clemson (13), Virginia Tech (18), Stanford (21), UNC (30), Florida International (38), Georgia Tech (42), Virginia (52), Miami (70), Wake Forest (71) and Memphis (115). NCCU is an FCS school. So Memphis is the only FBS team below us in these preseason rankings so it is a good thing preseason rankings are notoriously inaccurate.

[CameronBornAndBred]

FIU is receiving votes in the AP Top 25, so it won't be easy. That said, I agree.

FWIW, Duke is favored to win the game by 4 points in Vegas.
I was thinking about this after reading some more recent posts...where did you find that line? Who on earth (ok..in Vegas) would post numbers of a game without even knowing who is going to be available on the field yet? I think it's unlikely that betting people are going to favor Duke in this game, especially with our low rating and FIU's higher rating. Is it possible you found numbers from last year?

By the way, regardless of the odds, I'm saying Duke wins.

[airowe]

I was thinking about this after reading some more recent posts...where did you find that line? Who on earth (ok..in Vegas) would post numbers of a game without even knowing who is going to be available on the field yet? I think it's unlikely that betting people are going to favor Duke in this game, especially with our low rating and FIU's higher rating. Is it possible you found numbers from last year?

By the way, regardless of the odds, I'm saying Duke wins.

Line was released a couple weeks ago: http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/odds/las-vegas/

It opened at -5.5 and moved almost immediately to -4. Vegas generally knows what they're talking about. The bad thing about this game is if Duke wins the uninformed fan will not mark it as a big win (it should) but if Duke loses, they will get trashed for it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Line was released a couple weeks ago: http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/odds/las-vegas/

It opened at -5.5 and moved almost immediately to -4. Vegas generally knows what they're talking about. The bad thing about this game is if Duke wins the uninformed fan will not mark it as a big win (it should) but if Duke loses, they will get trashed for it.

Thanks much. I don't think a loss will equal a trashing..unless we lose badly.

[pbc2]

Scrimmage #2 was held on Friday night.

Here are some observations: http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/08/connette-scores-2-tds-and-other-observations-from-duke-scrimmage-2/ (http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/08/connette-scores-2-tds-and-other-observations-from-duke-scrimmage-2/)

And GoDuke highlights: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205614312&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[formerdukeathlete]

Scrimmage #2 was held on Friday night.

Here are some observations: http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/08/connette-scores-2-tds-and-other-observations-from-duke-scrimmage-2/ (http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/08/connette-scores-2-tds-and-other-observations-from-duke-scrimmage-2/)

And GoDuke highlights: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205614312&DB_OEM_ID=4200

What is your take on the quarterback play? Was Sirk playng against the 2s? He appears to have had a very good showing.

[Olympic Fan]

What is your take on the quarterback play? Was Sirk playng against the 2s? He appears to have had a very good showing.

I think we need to temper our enthusiasm for Sirk's performance -- he wasn't playing against the 2s -- he was playing against the 3s and 4s.

Cut divided the teams very much like he did in the spring game. The 1 and 2 offense (with a few of the top 3s) played against the 1 and 2 defense (not sure any 3s made it). The scrub offense -- mostly true freshmen and walkons -- played against the scrub D. I mean that for much of the time Sirk was a quarterback Hud Mellencamp (who never played high school football) was playing one corner.

The scrubs got a lot of snaps --I think Cut wanted to get a look look at his young players in a scrimmage setting before most of them move on to the scout team. Most, not all -- Powell and Duncan, the two freshman running backs, started the scrimnmage with the scrubs, then finished it running with the regulars ... again, I think that;s because he knows what Thompson, Snead and Kurunwune can do and want them to get a lot of work.

Again, I am not knocking Sirk -- a great run/pass guy with good accuracy on the run. He's going to be very good -- a candidate to start next year as a redshirt freshman. But I really have doubts that he plays this year unless we have a ton on injuries. Just a clue -- he was wearing a blue jersey last night, which means he could be -- and was -- hit. Renfree and Boone were in red (no touch!). I doubt he'd be gtting pounded if he was a candidate to be in the QB rotation.

A few other notes:

I'm holding my breath because he's still got to do it in a game, but frehman PK Ross Martin looks spectacular -- in two scrimmages, he hasn't missed an extra point and he's 5-for-5 on field goals, including a long of 48. That's in the game situations ... plus before the actualy scrimmage, they do special teams work and have had Martin kick a series of field goals (with full defensive rush) ... starting from short range (inside 30 yards) out to 50 yards -- four kicks in a series. In Monday's first scrimmage, he hit 3 of 4, missing from 50 ... Friday night he was 4 of 4, nailing it from 50 (with room to spare). The great thing about his kicking so far is that they all seem to split the upright -- they aren't just sneaking through.

Desmond Scott caught six passes -- one of them a gorgeous diving catch for a first down -- and looks more and more comfortable as a wide receiver. Freshmen WR Max McCaffrey and TE Erich Schneider were also playing with the regulars.

Garrett Patterson made the switch from CB to WR last week. It's a good move -- he wasn't going to oplay at CB and looked very good in his first scrimmage at WR ... albiet, like Sirk, he played on the scrub teamagainst the scrubs. He's one guy that could still move into the real rotation ... but I want to see him do it against Butler and/or Cockrell befiore he goes into the rotation.

Two great plays got wiped out. Tim Burton, who had a 95-yard KO return for a TD Monday, had a 99-yard TD return erased Friday by a flag. And Renfree had a gorgeous 49-yard touchdown pass to Vernon whiped out by a sack (since the DL aren't allowed to touch the QB, they kind of wave at him as they come by. Brandon Braxton, who was coming on the blitz, came at him before he threw ... it looked from where I was that Renfree had stepped up inside and let him pass, but the ref ruled it was a sack and erased the threw ... in truth, under the rules they are using, it was tough to tell ... but it was a perfectly thrown deep ball in any event).

Renfree has thrown one interception in each scrimmage -- and both were highlight film picks by Lee Butler. Great to see that after last year's injury, he looks faster and more mobile than ever before in his career.

[Greg_Newton]

Thanks a lot OF.

You mentioned McCaffrey and Schneider playing with the regulars - were there any Anthony Nash sightings?

I know he was mentioned as someone who could play right away, and with his supposed "4.25 40" speed and one-on-one drill dominance, one would think he might be on track to do so.

[Bob Green]

How has Corey Gattis looked? Any chance he sees playing time at receiver this year?

[chrishoke]

How is Crowder doing? We really need him to step up into the #2 receiver role.

[mkline09]

Thanks a lot OF.

You mentioned McCaffrey and Schneider playing with the regulars - were there any Anthony Nash sightings?

I know he was mentioned as someone who could play right away, and with his supposed "4.25 40" speed and one-on-one drill dominance, one would think he might be on track to do so.

I've heard mixed things about Nash. He is talented for sure and I've said I thought he might be a big contributor as a freshman with so many injuries but I think it was Patrick who said that he has a steep learning curve and that could limit his time. That being said at 6-foot-5 and with that kind of speed you certainly hope he can pick up on the system fast. I heard he was working with Conner Vernon in the off season so that can only help.

[Indoor66]

How is Crowder doing? We really need him to step up into the #2 receiver role.

When I read the first sentence I had memories of the Man from Cherryville. I felt real sad. I miss him,

[roywhite]

When I read the first sentence I had memories of the Man from Cherryville. I felt real sad. I miss him,

Yeah, I think Max would have liked being in Beijing and London to watch Coach K and the USA Olympic team win gold.
He loved his country and he loved Duke.

[chrishoke]

When I read the first sentence I had memories of the Man from Cherryville. I felt real sad. I miss him,

That is a much better question. How is Max? Does his head still get red all over?

[jimsumner]

How has Corey Gattis looked? Any chance he sees playing time at receiver this year?

I would be surprised to see Gattis get significant PT. The light just hasn't switched on for him at WR.

[Bob Green]

I would be surprised to see Gattis get significant PT. The light just hasn't switched on for him at WR.

Thanks! He was a versatile option QB in high school so it is unfortunate his talents haven't translated to the college level.

[OldPhiKap]

Thanks! He was a versatile option QB in high school so it is unfortunate his talents haven't translated to the college level.

Of course you neer know when the light will come on. To mix sports, Shane was a good but not great player until he found his inner Chi and decided to become a force.

I hope that a little adversity gives Corey the push he needs. Life isn't about playing a good hand, it is about playing a tough hand well,

[devilirium]

His biggest issue is his inconsistent hands, and that there are other receivers that are more physically gifted. The light can come on all it wants, but if there's a better player then said player will get more PT.

[mkline09]

Had a great time at Meet the Blue Devils on Saturday. Really good turnout. GoDuke reported it at 1,500. The players were all very nice, some more comfortable than others but all very respectful. It was very cool to get to walk around Pascal and even outside on the practice field. Got me really excited about the upcoming season. Got a chance to see, and hold the helmets. It amazes me out light they are from the archaic ones I wore way back in high school that weighed half a metric ton. Great experience oveall.

[watzone]

Here is a photo gallery from the weekend on the BDN FB Page - https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=oa.10151368837432926&type=1 Most of the players seemed in great spirit and it was obvious the team likes each other and they have a family atmosphere. Coach Cut told me he was pleased with the turnout and that he appreciated the hardcore Duke FB types who are backing the program. Fans got a firssthand view of the new practice facility as well which is already paying off in recruiting whether it is seen on the surface or not.

[Bob Green]

Safety Taylor Sowell is out for the season with a ruptured Achilles tendon:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205633511&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[CameronBornAndBred]

Safety Taylor Sowell is out for the season with a ruptured Achilles tendon:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205633511&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Death, Taxes, and pre-season injuries wiping out half of Duke's football team.

[Bob Green]

Here is a Duke preview from Sports Nation:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/21/3468791/ncaa-football-preview-duke-blue.html

The article contains no enlightening information and says a lot of things we all say on DBR such as:


Last year's defensive unit showed flashes of solid play, but for the most part, was a disappointment, allowing 425.4 yards per game. The real problem was stopping the run, as foes averaged a hefty 180.7 yards per game on almost five yards per carry (4.9).

EDIT: this (http://www.accsports.com/blogs/jim-young/2012081613218/ask-a-blogger-duke-football-preseason-qandampa.php) is a much better Duke preview.

[chrishoke]

Blair is now walking on his own. http://blogs.newsobserver.com/dukenow/blair-holliday-walks-for-the-first-time

Love the Cut quotes - so glad he is our football coach.

[Newton_14]

Blair is now walking on his own. http://blogs.newsobserver.com/dukenow/blair-holliday-walks-for-the-first-time

Love the Cut quotes - so glad he is our football coach.

Man that is great news! That is big. Somehow I think Blair is going to make it all the way back, which would be beyond awesome. Long way to go I know, but, this is certainly a big step in recovery.

Keep the good news coming!

[Bob Green]

Safety Jordon Byas (Knee) and Linebacker David Helton (Concussion) were unavailable for the final scrimmage:

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/19886184/article-DUKE--GOOD-NEWS--BAD-NEWS


“We don’t know the extent of it,” Cutcliffe said. “He was having an MRI and we’ll see what that brings.”

Duke was also without starting linebacker David Helton, who suffered a concussion in last Friday’s scrimmage.

Reserve safety Taylor Sowell is out for the season after rupturing his Achilles’ tendon. He had surgery on Monday.

Because of all the injuries, Duke had only 65 scholarship position players available Tuesday night.

[mkline09]

Safety Jordon Byas (Knee) and Linebacker David Helton (Concussion) were unavailable for the final scrimmage:

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/19886184/article-DUKE--GOOD-NEWS--BAD-NEWS

With all these injuries and now the NCAA's inane denial of Jeremy Cash's request to play, the Duke Offense is going to have to be crips it sounds more often than not. I expect a lot of shootouts and at this rate Duke may not have enough defensive players left.

[dukereport]

With all these injuries and now the NCAA's inane denial of Jeremy Cash's request to play, the Duke Offense is going to have to be crips it sounds more often than not. I expect a lot of shootouts and at this rate Duke may not have enough defensive players left.

You know we are in trouble when Renfree completes all 10 of his passes for 235 yards with 2 TD's against our D.

[Bob Green]

You know we are in trouble when Renfree completes all 10 of his passes for 235 yards with 2 TD's against our D.

Renfree did not complete those passes against the 1st Team Defense. It was against the scout team.

[formerdukeathlete]

Renfree did not complete those passes against the 1st Team Defense. It was against the scout team.

We will soon see whether all of this represents sufficient progress to handle our relatively closely-matched opponent in the opener.

[Olympic Fan]

It's hard to take too much from Tuesday night's scrimmage, because unlike the first two scrimmages -- when the first two teams on offense went against the first two teams on defense, in this one the regulars (starters and backups) went against the scout team -- they were even wearing FIU's numbers!

Now, there are some good players on the scout team, but they are young-- mostly true freshmen, plus a few walk-ons. It's no surprise that the regulars dominated ... it would have been downright discouraging if that had not. The final score of the scrimmage was 48-3 ... it would have been 49 because the regulars scored on every offensive possession, but after one, they went for two and it failed (the only failure for the regular offense all night). Both Renfree (10-for-10) and Boone (4-for-4) were perfect ... Connette scored two TDs on the ground.

Defensively, freshman QB Thomas Sirk occassionally made some plays against the regulars. He didn't post the gaudy numbers he did last Friday night when HE was competing against the scout team defense. But I think he was more impressive with 7 of 17 against the regulars (with a couple of drops). He did the most damage with a couple of scrambles -- one play especially, he slipped a sure sack by Dez Johnson, broke free and scrambled for about 20 yards. He's going to be a good one next year. Id there was a good sign it was that scout team absolutely could not run against the regular defense (except for Sirk's scrambles).

Finally, Ross Martin continues to be so good it's hard to believe. Perfect on extra points (as he has been in every scrimmage), he was 4-of-4 on field goals after the scrimmage -- I'm just counting live FG drills with a line to protect him and a real defensive rush. He's only missed one live FG in three scrimmages (from 50 yards). He's also hit from 50 and several more from 40-plus. If he can do in a real game what he's doing in practices, Duke will have a GREAT placekicer.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Connette scored two TDs on the ground..
Did he score as a QB or in another position?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

It's hard to take too much from Tuesday night's scrimmage, because unlike the first two scrimmages -- when the first two teams on offense went against the first two teams on defense, in this one the regulars (starters and backups) went against the scout team -- they were even wearing FIU's numbers!

Now, there are some good players on the scout team, but they are young-- mostly true freshmen, plus a few walk-ons. It's no surprise that the regulars dominated ... it would have been downright discouraging if that had not. The final score of the scrimmage was 48-3 ... it would have been 49 because the regulars scored on every offensive possession, but after one, they went for two and it failed (the only failure for the regular offense all night). Both Renfree (10-for-10) and Boone (4-for-4) were perfect ... Connette scored two TDs on the ground.

Defensively, freshman QB Thomas Sirk occassionally made some plays against the regulars. He didn't post the gaudy numbers he did last Friday night when HE was competing against the scout team defense. But I think he was more impressive with 7 of 17 against the regulars (with a couple of drops). He did the most damage with a couple of scrambles -- one play especially, he slipped a sure sack by Dez Johnson, broke free and scrambled for about 20 yards. He's going to be a good one next year. Id there was a good sign it was that scout team absolutely could not run against the regular defense (except for Sirk's scrambles).

Finally, Ross Martin continues to be so good it's hard to believe. Perfect on extra points (as he has been in every scrimmage), he was 4-of-4 on field goals after the scrimmage -- I'm just counting live FG drills with a line to protect him and a real defensive rush. He's only missed one live FG in three scrimmages (from 50 yards). He's also hit from 50 and several more from 40-plus. If he can do in a real game what he's doing in practices, Duke will have a GREAT placekicer.
Add to that description of Ross Martin that he's confident, but modest.... a rare combination among stars. When our M&M's (Martin and Monday) are performing well, Duke has the edge in games where kicking makes the winner.:cool:

[jafarr1]

Did he score as a QB or in another position?

QB. Once in a wildcat set, and once after faking a hand-off to Juwan Thompson. Both looked to be from 3-5 yards out.

[Olympic Fan]

QB. Once in a wildcat set, and once after faking a hand-off to Juwan Thompson. Both looked to be from 3-5 yards out.

Right, but the failed two-point conversion was essentuially the same play as the second Connette TD (the faked handoff to Thompson). On the two-point try, he did hand off -- to Kurunwune -- and the was stopped a yard short.

Connette did catch several passes -- including one long one -- from the stand-up tight end position.

[CameronBornAndBred]

QB. Once in a wildcat set, and once after faking a hand-off to Juwan Thompson. Both looked to be from 3-5 yards out.

Grrrrr. I think I'm going to say that a lot this year. Even when we score.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Connette did catch several passes -- including one long one -- from the stand-up tight end position.
Those I'm looking to follow with a celebratory "hell yeah!", which I also hope I get to say a lot.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I missed this yesterday, but the N&O talks about Renfree in goal line situations...and whether he will stay on the field.

Two years ago, Cutcliffe would take Renfree out of the game near the goal line to bring in the more mobile Connette into the game. (Connette ran for eight touchdowns.) Last year, with Connette hurt, Anthony Boone often played that role. (Boone ran for four touchdowns.)
This year, with the 6-foot-2, 225-pound Connette playing just about every position on the field, Duke is using Connette and Renfree in the backfield together at the goal line. In Tuesday’s scrimmage, Renfree would line up to take the snap, then go in motion before the ball was snapped directly to Connette.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/22/2285076/decock-goal-line-in-sight-for.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/22/2285076/decock-goal-line-in-sight-for.html)

[airowe]

I missed this yesterday, but the N&O talks about Renfree in goal line situations...and whether he will stay on the field.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/22/2285076/decock-goal-line-in-sight-for.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/22/2285076/decock-goal-line-in-sight-for.html)

Definitely a step up from him off the field.

[jafarr1]

The main criticism of the Connette package is that the defense knew it was going to be a run 95% of the time. Keeping Renfree in should give Duke red-zone flexibility, which is good.

There's also the trick-play potential - double throws, Renfree going in motion just to have Connette pass, Connette passing to Renfree, etc. Honestly, I'd rather not have us get too cute in the red zone, but something tells me that Roper and Cutcliffe won't be able to resist.

[killerleft]

The main criticism of the Connette package is that the defense knew it was going to be a run 95% of the time. Keeping Renfree in should give Duke red-zone flexibility, which is good.

There's also the trick-play potential - double throws, Renfree going in motion just to have Connette pass, Connette passing to Renfree, etc. Honestly, I'd rather not have us get too cute in the red zone, but something tells me that Roper and Cutcliffe won't be able to resist.

I don't mind "too cute" - I'm more worried about Connette just running the same play every time. Mix it up, I say!

[jimsumner]

I don't mind "too cute" - I'm more worried about Connette just running the same play every time. Mix it up, I say!

I'm more worried about some 250-pound linebacker blowing up Renfree.

[jafarr1]

I'm more worried about some 250-pound linebacker blowing up Renfree.

Yep. One of the bad things that could happen.

[killerleft]

Yep. One of the bad things that could happen.

I get what you folks are saying, but playing scared is a fine way to get hurt. How many teams have ever taken their quarterback out in the red zone because of injury fears? And I don't think that's what Cut has done in the past. He's just trying to figure out some way to score. What good is having Renfree in the game if teams figure out he's just a decoy? Running ten against eleven is a sure way to fail, at least on average.

[Bob Green]

I'm more worried about some 250-pound linebacker blowing up Renfree.


What good is having Renfree in the game if teams figure out he's just a decoy? Running ten against eleven is a sure way to fail, at least on average.

I agree with both statements, but what I want to see is Renfree staying in the traditional QB role with Connette going in motion for a pitch-out with the option to run or throw. Not to speak for Jim, but I believe he is voicing concern over our primary QB being injured while executing some high risk cutsey trick play, or as killerleft frames it, acting as a decoy. My two cents is Renfree belongs undercenter in the Red Zone.

[uh_no]

I agree with both statements, but what I want to see is Renfree staying in the traditional QB role with Connette going in motion for a pitch-out with the option to run or throw. Not to speak for Jim, but I believe he is voicing concern over our primary QB being injured while executing some high risk cutsey trick play, or as killerleft frames it, acting as a decoy. My two cents is Renfree belongs undercenter in the Red Zone.

well....if history shows us anything, we'll probably dump it off in the flat for no gain for 3 downs.....i'll honestly be upset if we do anywhere near as much of that this year as last...

[OldPhiKap]

You generally don't have as much time in the backfield in the red zone, because the defense isn't stretched as much.

Slow-developing trick plays usually end badly.

[CameronBlue]

I don't mind "too cute" - I'm more worried about Connette just running the same play every time. Mix it up, I say!

Yup, rekindling memories of Adam Smith and his namesake drinking game. I'm more worried because I just don't keep that much booze around the house.

[mkline09]

I don't mind "too cute" - I'm more worried about Connette just running the same play every time. Mix it up, I say!

I know that play. Send Crowder in motion, fake the handoff and the QB keeps it. I could predict when that play would be run last year and sitting near some opposing fans they kept making statements like "Isn't that the same play they keep running in those situations?" Then they'd accurately predict when that play was coming. So if the regular fan can see it coming you know a skilled defensive coordinator can. Diversity is the spice of life and the key to an effective offense, especially in the redzone.

[jimsumner]

I agree with both statements, but what I want to see is Renfree staying in the traditional QB role with Connette going in motion for a pitch-out with the option to run or throw. Not to speak for Jim, but I believe he is voicing concern over our primary QB being injured while executing some high risk cutsey trick play, or as killerleft frames it, acting as a decoy. My two cents is Renfree belongs undercenter in the Red Zone.

Yep. Exactly. If I had my druthers, I'd keep Renfree at QB in the red zone. But I die a little inside when I contemplate him blocking on the edge or catching a pass in traffic in some kind of double-QB package. The risk/reward ratio seems way out of whack to me.

[Bob Green]

This is a big deal because playing in the Senior Bowl is a great way to demonstrate skills prior to the NFL Draft:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205668248

Of course, if both players ultimately qualify to participate in the Senior Bowl it will mean they had great senior seasons, which is needed for Duke to rack up the wins.

[johnb]

Yep. Exactly. If I had my druthers, I'd keep Renfree at QB in the red zone. But I die a little inside when I contemplate him blocking on the edge or catching a pass in traffic in some kind of double-QB package. The risk/reward ratio seems way out of whack to me.

What is it about our quarterback situation that makes it so necessary to bring in a special player when we get into the red zone? Presumably every other team in the country could also dig up a running QB who would have a skillset not possessed by the starting QB, but I don't know of other teams that do this. I suppose the NY Jets might be planning something with Tebow, but it's generally viewed with skepticism. So I guess my question is, "why is Renfree different from 95% of all qb's when it comes to red zone play?"

[Reilly]

.. So I guess my question is, "why is Renfree different from 95% of all qb's when it comes to red zone play?"

It's not that Renfree is different from 95% of all QBs, it is that Duke's offense (esp. OL) has been considered "different" (that is, weaker).

Cut's stated reasons, as I recall, are that
(1) when the field's compressed, you need to be able to run (no room to spread out and pass); and
(2) we don't run very well with a traditional QB and our OL -- so, we need to be creative.

Those are his reasons.

I believe Cut's diagnosis of the problem is accurate (that is, look at our Red Zone success, and look at our woeful traditional running game) -- in short, we needed to be better.

I'm not sure Cut's solution (insert a running QB) is the ideal answer -- it has worked very well sometimes, and is a frustrating rhythm-disruptor other times.

And whether a running QB is better than some other strategy is the eternal debate.

Hopefully our OL has matured enough, and our backs are strong, and we'll have a pretty good running game this year.

[OldPhiKap]

Hopefully our OL has matured enough, and our backs are strong, and we'll have a pretty good running game this year.

A good offensive line covers many sins.

Having to run our QB certainly was not an ideal situation but was probably better than the alternative.

In either event, we've got to make what we can do work and keep on grinding.

Go get' em!

[killerleft]

It's not that Renfree is different from 95% of all QBs, it is that Duke's offense (esp. OL) has been considered "different" (that is, weaker).

Cut's stated reasons, as I recall, are that
(1) when the field's compressed, you need to be able to run (no room to spread out and pass); and
(2) we don't run very well with a traditional QB and our OL -- so, we need to be creative.

Those are his reasons.

I believe Cut's diagnosis of the problem is accurate (that is, look at our Red Zone success, and look at our woeful traditional running game) -- in short, we needed to be better.

I'm not sure Cut's solution (insert a running QB) is the ideal answer -- it has worked very well sometimes, and is a frustrating rhythm-disruptor other times.

And whether a running QB is better than some other strategy is the eternal debate.

Hopefully our OL has matured enough, and our backs are strong, and we'll have a pretty good running game this year.

You've hit the nail on the head, I think. No matter what we do to make up for our lack of power running, it probably isn't going to take the place of that good ol' smashmouth football inside the five yard line. Here's to our offensive line's improvement showing us the way to better red zone numbers!

[airowe]

It's not that Renfree is different from 95% of all QBs, it is that Duke's offense (esp. OL) has been considered "different" (that is, weaker).

Cut's stated reasons, as I recall, are that
(1) when the field's compressed, you need to be able to run (no room to spread out and pass); and
(2) we don't run very well with a traditional QB and our OL -- so, we need to be creative.

I hear what you're saying, but like Jim Sumner, I'm worried that keeping Renfree in (as a blocker if Connette is running) puts Sean in harm's way when he would be much better served simply lining up as quarterback. Hopefully, if Connette is to run then Sean will be used more as a decoy, though I'm not sure why the defense would honor him as a receiver unless it's shown that he's a threat to catch a ball thrown by Connette.

I know Des has lined up in the wildcat formation in practice. Assuming no other quarterback is in there, this is a more effective use of personnel if we're truly trying to add more blockers on the field.

[Reilly]

I hear what you're saying, but ... I'm worried that keeping Renfree in (as a blocker if Connette is running) puts Sean in harm's way ....

I believe we're discussing several different issues in this thread (that are related).

Issue 1: Does Duke have RZ troubles? Answer: Historically, yes.

Issue 2: Should something be done about it? Answer: Yes.

[I was talking, generally, only about Issues 1 and 2 above.]

Issue 3: Should a running Connette be part of the solution? Answer: Source of angst, anger, endless debate. My take: maybe, sometimes it works ... hopefully we don't have to go there as much this year.

Issue 4: Should a blocking Renfree be part of the solution? Answer: That seems to scare folks. I wasn't contemplating that part of it all, mainly just talking about Cut's (correctly stated) need for creativity (historically) and hoping that we don't need as much creativity this year.

[jimsumner]

Jordon Byas underwent knee surgery today.

From press release

"Duke head football coach David Cutcliffe announced on Friday that redshirt senior safety Jordon Byas underwent successful surgery to debride a torn meniscus in his left knee. He will be out of action indefinitely.

The procedure was performed on Wednesday afternoon by Dr. Claude T. Moorman III, Duke's head team physician and the director of Duke Sports Medicine. "

This could have been worse. There were fears that Byas might have torn an ACL. He might get back this season from a torn meniscus.

[chrishoke]

Jordon Byas underwent knee surgery today.

From press release

"Duke head football coach David Cutcliffe announced on Friday that redshirt senior safety Jordon Byas underwent successful surgery to debride a torn meniscus in his left knee. He will be out of action indefinitely.

The procedure was performed on Wednesday afternoon by Dr. Claude T. Moorman III, Duke's head team physician and the director of Duke Sports Medicine. "

This could have been worse. There were fears that Byas might have torn an ACL. He might get back this season from a torn meniscus.

Hard to put a positive spin on yet another preseason serious injury.

[PDDuke85]

Hard to put a positive spin on yet another preseason serious injury.

Certainly not good for the early season but I'll take a meniscal tear VS an ACL in a heartbeat. Recover quickly Jordon and see you for the Memphis game.

[mkline09]

Well apparently Jordan Dewalt-Ondijo is practicing again and got a few snaps in the last scrimmage. Hopefully he is closer to getting back to full speed. Duke is definitely going to need him up front this year.

[Bob Green]

Laura Keeley at the N&O has an excellent article up on Conner Vernon:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/28/2297207/vernon-grows-into-record-setting.html


Vernon, the NCAA active leader in career receptions (198), needs 35 catches to pass Clemson’s Aaron Kelly and 843 yards to overtake Florida State’s Peter Warrick and set ACC career records. If he has a statistically average season, he’ll set both marks and have plenty of catches to spare.

The article goes on to discuss his development during high school and his recruitment.

[Jim3k]

Duke has elected four co-captains--presumably two each for the offense and the defense.

Walt Canty, Ross Cockrell, Sean Renfree and Conner Vernon (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/28/2299629/college-notebook-duke-names-4.html)

(http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/28/2299629/college-notebook-duke-names-4.html)

[Bob Green]

The ACC Sports Journal moved Duke up to #9 in their conference power rankings:

http://www.accsports.com/articles/2012090413342/accsportscom-football-power-rankings-sept-4.php

Florida State is #1, while at the bottom end, Boston College is #10, Wake Forest is #11 and Maryland is #12. Duke started the season at #10 moving up after Wake Forest's less than impressive performance against Liberty.

Miami and N.C. State are just ahead of Duke at #7 and #8 respectively.

[jimsumner]

The ACC Sports Journal moved Duke up to #9 in their conference power rankings:

http://www.accsports.com/articles/2012090413342/accsportscom-football-power-rankings-sept-4.php

Florida State is #1, while at the bottom end, Boston College is #10, Wake Forest is #11 and Maryland is #12. Duke started the season at #10 moving up after Wake Forest's less than impressive performance against Liberty.

Miami and N.C. State are just ahead of Duke at #7 and #8 respectively.

Unfortunately, Duke only plays one of the three ACC teams ranked lower.

Pity.

[jafarr1]

The real pity is that we play the teams ranked 1-7.

Ah, well, we can only play the hand that we're dealt.

[Bob Green]

Unfortunately, Duke only plays one of the three ACC teams ranked lower.

Pity.

Yes that is true, but perhaps some of the teams we play will be ranked lower than us by game day. One can hope.

[Indoor66]

Yes that is true, but perhaps some of the teams we play will be ranked lower than us by game day. One can hope.

I would prefer that they be ranked lower than us AFTER game day. :cool:

[Bob Green]

Congratulations and good luck to Conner Vernon on his inclusion on the Biletnikoff Award watch list. I will be following his numbers all season as CV strives to become the all time ACC leader in career receptions and career receiving yards:

http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/07/conner-vernon-named-to-the-biletnikoff-award-watch-list/

Receptions needed: 34

Yards needed: 842

Having already broken the career receptions record, Conner Vernon needs 218 more receiving yards to break the ACC record. Through seven games, he has caught 45 passes for 625 yards. He is on track to break the record at home against Clemson on November 3.

[Bob Green]

Vernon caught six passes for 124 yards. He now needs 94 yards to break the ACC record for career receiving yards.

[devildeac]

Vernon caught six passes for 124 yards. He now needs 94 yards to break the ACC record for career receiving yards.

I'd like to see him do that with his first (or maybe second) catch real early in the game against f$u;).

[davekay1971]

Time to start seriously taking about the ACC Championship game.

We have 4 tough ones left, but I don't think we should be looking at any as unwinnable. Well, okay. FSU at FSU is a pretty steep mountain to climb. But how about our other 3?

Clemson at home: tough. We'll be underdogs and should be. We'll need to play well and we'll need Clemson to pull a Clemson.

Ga Tech beat BC, but Ga Tech is a mess. Our defensive speed, scheme, and experience should reward us this year. And their defense is weak, even without Al Groh. We're on the road, but anyone think we don't have a good chance at that one?

Miami is also tough, but it's a team with flaws. Carolina beat them, and State played an unimaginably awful game and still nearly beat them. Duke can beat Miami.

If we go 2-2 down the stretch, we may win the division. VT has games at Miami and against FSU. We need VT to lose 2, since they hold the head to head against us. Miami has 2 losses. If we give them a third, that may be enough. UNC, of course, is ineligible since they, you know, CHEAT. And Ga Tech needs one loss at the hands of Duke to be out of it.

So, by my calculations, if Miami beats VT, FSU handles VT, and we beat Ga Tech and Miami, we're in.

So...uh...go Canes?

(Addendum: UNCheat has 4 very winnable games left. I'll be cheering against them, but it would be sweet, in it's own way, for UNC to end up 6-2 in our division and watch a Duke team with a 5-3 conference record go to the Championship game because, you know, they CHEAT)

[jimsumner]

Time to start seriously taking about the ACC Championship game.

We have 4 tough ones left, but I don't think we should be looking at any as unwinnable. Well, okay. FSU at FSU is a pretty steep mountain to climb. But how about our other 3?

Clemson at home: tough. We'll be underdogs and should be. We'll need to play well and we'll need Clemson to pull a Clemson.

Ga Tech beat BC, but Ga Tech is a mess. Our defensive speed, scheme, and experience should reward us this year. And their defense is weak, even without Al Groh. We're on the road, but anyone think we don't have a good chance at that one?

Miami is also tough, but it's a team with flaws. Carolina beat them, and State played an unimaginably awful game and still nearly beat them. Duke can beat Miami.

If we go 2-2 down the stretch, we may win the division. VT has games at Miami and against FSU. We need VT to lose 2, since they hold the head to head against us. Miami has 2 losses. If we give them a third, that may be enough. UNC, of course, is ineligible since they, you know, CHEAT. And Ga Tech needs one loss at the hands of Duke to be out of it.

So, by my calculations, if Miami beats VT, FSU handles VT, and we beat Ga Tech and Miami, we're in.

So...uh...go Canes?

(Addendum: UNCheat has 4 very winnable games left. I'll be cheering against them, but it would be sweet, in it's own way, for UNC to end up 6-2 in our division and watch a Duke team with a 5-3 conference record go to the Championship game because, you know, they CHEAT)

RE: Georgia Tech. Keep in mind that Duke has a week off before this game. A chance to get healthy and more importantly an extra week to work on defending GT's option attack. ACC teams with a week off to prepare for GT tend to do well. Tech also has Georgia the following week, so the Jackets may be looking ahead.

But I don't think Duke needs to count on Tech looking ahead or being flat or anything else. I think a reasonable case can be made that the 2012 Duke football team is better than the 2012 Georgia Tech football team. I like Duke's chances in Atlanta.

[budwom]

FWIW, Sagarin now has us one point ahead of GT and a point behind Miami. Hopefully we have a genuine shot in both games.

Jim, any preliminary info on injuries from last night? Looked like lots of dings, hopefully nothing too major.

[jimsumner]

FWIW, Sagarin now has us one point ahead of GT and a point behind Miami. Hopefully we have a genuine shot in both games.

Jim, any preliminary info on injuries from last night? Looked like lots of dings, hopefully nothing too major.

Cut said after the game that Duke had lots of cramps. He hoped that was the extent of it.

I did notice that we didn't see Justin Thompson down the stretch.

[devildeac]

Cut said after the game that Duke had lots of cramps. He hoped that was the extent of it.

I did notice that we didn't see Justin Thompson down the stretch.

Who is Justin Thompson? I do not see his name on our roster.
:rolleyes:;)

[jimsumner]

Who is Justin Thompson? I do not see his name on our roster.
:rolleyes:;)

Juwan Thompson. Smarty-pants. :)

[devildeac]

Juwan Thompson. Smarty-pants. :)

Now the serious comment and/or question. Snead and Duncan ran well and I thought Thompson did, too. Don't remember any time he went down so not sure why he did not get any late snaps and I am certainly not smart enough to figure out how Cut uses his RB. Does he rotate them by series/drive/play-calling? Is it by "feel" who is having a good game?

[loran16]

Now the serious comment and/or question. Snead and Duncan ran well and I thought Thompson did, too. Don't remember any time he went down so not sure why he did not get any late snaps and I am certainly not smart enough to figure out how Cut uses his RB. Does he rotate them by series/drive/play-calling? Is it by "feel" who is having a good game?

It's a rotation system of some sort, often by series....though on rare occasion they'll switch off on individual plays (In those circumstances, I'm guessing its for specifically called plays.) I think it's just to keep the guys fresh.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

There are so many football threads I don't even know where to post this or see if anyone else already did!

We got 16 votes today from the coaches. Respect!

[Greg_Newton]

Now the serious comment and/or question. Snead and Duncan ran well and I thought Thompson did, too. Don't remember any time he went down so not sure why he did not get any late snaps and I am certainly not smart enough to figure out how Cut uses his RB. Does he rotate them by series/drive/play-calling? Is it by "feel" who is having a good game?

He went down on a ~4 yard run to the right side, a play before Snead limped off I think (3rd quarter?). Trainers were out there and whatnot.

I did bump into him as he was jogging into the tunnel post-game, though, and he executed a nice jump-cut and continued without breaking stride. So, hopefully it's not too serious. :p

[devildeac]

He went down on a ~4 yard run to the right side, a play before Snead limped off I think (3rd quarter?). Trainers were out there and whatnot.

I did bump into him as he was jogging into the tunnel post-game, though, and he executed a nice jump-cut and continued without breaking stride. So, hopefully it's not too serious. :p

I'm glad he was able to avoid your cheap shot "bump" after the game with his jump-cut:rolleyes:;). Seriously, thanks for the report. From our GA seats in Section 19, my old eyes, a serious beer tasting session pre-game and simply too many plays to recall, I forgot he had gone down briefly.

Our three RB really did an outstanding job grinding out the 234 yards last night. A big shout out for the OL, too, even with two more false starts:mad:.