PDA

View Full Version : Wow!! Major NBA trade. KG to Celts



JasonEvans
07-30-2007, 04:05 PM
KG to Celts for 4 players and at least one draft pick. (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsgGnZZFY_C4TRlVFDGhquC8vLYF?slug=ap-celtics-garnetttrade&prov=ap&type=lgns)

The players being traded by Boston are Telfair, Gerald Greene, Theo Ratliff, and Al Jefferson.

Trade is about to be finalized according to a Celtic official who spoke to the AP.

-Jason "I sorta feel for KG-- I wish he could go somewhere where he would have decent teammates... but at least he is in the East" Evans

pfrduke
07-30-2007, 04:14 PM
Jason "I sorta feel for KG-- I wish he could go somewhere where he would have decent teammates... but at least he is in the East" Evans

Ray Allen and Paul Pierce aren't decent teammates?

tombrady
07-30-2007, 04:26 PM
-Jason "I sorta feel for KG-- I wish he could go somewhere where he would have decent teammates... but at least he is in the East" Evans

Seriously dude WTF? This makes the Celtics instant Finals contenders coming out of the East.

Mcluhan
07-30-2007, 05:16 PM
Seriously dude WTF? This makes the Celtics instant Finals contenders coming out of the East.

Yeah, I think the three of them will mesh well-they're all very competitive and focused. Suddenly doubling Pierce becomes a lot harder, and their offense will flow from there.

If they have any money left over, they should go after Boykins, Ruben Patterson, or Pargo to round out their rotation. Kendrick Perkins, Rondo, and Tony Allen should be involved as well.

Scoring Point
07-30-2007, 05:21 PM
Seems pretty one-sided to me

- Jefferson is arguably a rising star, though it is always tough to interpret bug numbers on terrible teams;
- Green has talent but seems like a kid without a position
- Ratliff is way over the hill
- I thought the Celts had released Telfair; I would not touch that kid with a 10 foot pole - I don't know if he is even worthy of starting at a Top D-1 program talent-wise, and then there's the whole knucklehead factor

Off the top of my head, KG, Pierce and Allen is about as strong a trio as any in the league, ASSUMING they can co-exist. Pierce in particular will need to get comfy with a lesser role, although having 2 other big-time scorers should do wonders for KG's psyche

pfrduke
07-30-2007, 05:27 PM
The C's have an interesting roster from cap standpoint - I think Pierce, Allen, and Garnett are extremely close to the cap all on their own. Do the C's have a MLE left for this season? Otherwise, this could be a roster with dangerously low depth.

Starters:
Rondo
Allen
Pierce
KG
Perkins

Bench:
Gabe Pruitt (currently unsigned)
Brandon Wallace
Leon Powe
Ryan Gomes
Brian Scalabrine
Glen Davis (currently unsigned)

That bench lacks experience, talent, and guards. Unless there's an MLE that would allow the C's to sign a FA guard (or they can move Scalabrine and Powe/Gomes for a guard), Allen, Rondo, and Pierce all need to play a lot of minutes, and they're in trouble if any of them gets hurt for any significant period of time (say, if Ray Allen's ankles go bad again).

tombrady
07-30-2007, 05:57 PM
Do the C's have a MLE left for this season?

Yes they do.

tombrady
07-30-2007, 05:57 PM
Off the top of my head, KG, Pierce and Allen is about as strong a trio as any in the league, ASSUMING they can co-exist. Pierce in particular will need to get comfy with a lesser role, although having 2 other big-time scorers should do wonders for KG's psyche

Pierce used to defer to Antoine Walker...this won't be a problem.

pfrduke
07-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Yes they do.

Do you have any idea what guards might be available that they could sign with that MLE?

JasonEvans
07-30-2007, 06:02 PM
Ray Allen and Paul Pierce aren't decent teammates?

I'm an idiot. I totally forgot about the Ray Allen deal. I was thinking that Pierce was the only decent teammate he had.

Yeah, the Celts are a ton better thanks to this deal. I agree that they are instant finals contenders.

There may be some balance begin restored in the NBA... some. A few teams in the East appear to have gotten significantly better in the offseason (Celtics, Magic) while some younger teams will benefit from more experience for their young players (Bulls, Cavs). Granted, the two major studs of the draft went to West teams but the East is getting at least a little bit better.

-Jason "sorry for the brain freeze on the Celtics roster" Evans

JasonEvans
07-30-2007, 06:19 PM
Do you have any idea what guards might be available that they could sign with that MLE?

Earl Boykins is a free agent and is instant offense off the bench. He can really push the pace and create opportunities for his teammates, which could be key if he is running with some less-talented tammates on the Celtic's bench. The problem is that he is so short that he is a real defensive liability. He gets posted up constantly.

Matt Barnes really blossomed last year in Golden State and I think he could play wing guard (though he is better suited to wing forward). The question has to be if his success was a product of Golden State's system.

Mickael Pietrus is another Golden State wing who is available on the free agent market. He has a better history of success than Barnes does so he may be less of a risk.

Pargo would be avail for the MLE, for sure. He has put up decent numbers in very limited roles in recent years. I am not sold on him in a larger role for any team though.

Brevin Knight would be a great pickup if you could get him for the MLE, but he is supposedly very close to signing with the Clippers.

There are others who are out there... though not many players who you would think would play a significant role on a Finals contender.

-Jason "the team that has made no noise at all in the offseason is Cleveland" Evans

SilkyJ
07-30-2007, 07:39 PM
Seriously dude WTF? This makes the Celtics instant Finals contenders coming out of the East.

I agree. I thought the Ray allen deal put them in the playoffs, and this deal should probably put them in the Eastern Finals, and they could definitely win the east. Chicago and Cleveland will be tough to get through (might only have to beat one of them) and you can't count out Detroit or Miami with a healthy D-Wade...and don't sleep on the Magic and the Wizards before they lost arenas, and the up and coming raptors...The east is young and improving and will be much more competitive next year.

Silky "I can't wait to see the Celts play the Magic with Dwight Howard on KG and JJ and Ray Allen http://www.dukebasketballreport.comhttp://www.dukebasketballreport.comhttp://www.dukebasketballreport.comhttp://www.dukebasketballreport.coming it out from deep" J

mgtr
07-30-2007, 08:26 PM
I think the Celts got the best of this deal by a bunch. And KG is on a team with a real chance to win a ring. Go Celtics!

KrimsonKing
07-31-2007, 09:40 AM
why is sebastion telfair still in the NBA?

he is the worst player i have seen since dejuan wagner

Dukerati
07-31-2007, 10:26 AM
Do you have any idea what guards might be available that they could sign with that MLE?

Jason touched on some possibilities but I think he missed the most logical and most talented possibility. Juan Carlos Navarro. Washington has his rights but can't sign him because they are horribly managed and overcapped themselves by choosing DeShawn Stevenson over him.

For those of you who don't know who he is, he's one of the best guards in Europe. Yes, he is more of a 2 than a 1 but he has a lightning-quick first step, loves the pull-up jumper, and is a very strong finisher-- a style that should play well with Pierce and Allen setting up on the wings. At the very least, Navarro is highly coveted by many around the league and he could be a lucrative trading block to dangle in front of some teams (Chicago with Duhon and Memphis (he's best friends with Gasol) with Lowry come to mind)

pfrduke
07-31-2007, 10:38 AM
Jason touched on some possibilities but I think he missed the most logical and most talented possibility. Juan Carlos Navarro. Washington has his rights but can't sign him because they are horribly managed and overcapped themselves by choosing DeShawn Stevenson over him.

For those of you who don't know who he is, he's one of the best guards in Europe. Yes, he is more of a 2 than a 1 but he has a lightning-quick first step, loves the pull-up jumper, and is a very strong finisher-- a style that should play well with Pierce and Allen setting up on the wings. At the very least, Navarro is highly coveted by many around the league and he could be a lucrative trading block to dangle in front of some teams (Chicago with Duhon and Memphis (he's best friends with Gasol) with Lowry come to mind)

Yeah, but what could Boston give Washington to get Navarro? Do they have a 1st rounder left in the next two years (even if so, it's not likely to be a high pick)? Would the Wizards really want a Scalabrine/Powe package? Is it legal to just buy his rights?

Dukerati
07-31-2007, 02:10 PM
Yeah, but what could Boston give Washington to get Navarro? Do they have a 1st rounder left in the next two years (even if so, it's not likely to be a high pick)? Would the Wizards really want a Scalabrine/Powe package? Is it legal to just buy his rights?

To my understanding, the MLE is a tradeable asset, so the Wizards would receive a MLE and possibly a Powe or Davis in exchange for Navarro. I do not know if this theoretical trade would work out financially but that was my thinking for the trade...

greybeard
07-31-2007, 06:38 PM
I think that Ernie is in big trouble if he does not sign this guy.

Why, you ask? Arenas.

I do not think that the Wizzards can reach their potential unless he develops parts of his game that are laughably bad (in addition to his defense, which they can live with, his inability to penetrate the defense with the pass is astounding). He will not even try.

I think that Ernie will end up having to move Arenas, as unthinkable as that sounds. I'd do it now, to LA for Bynum and Farmar. I'd sign the guy from Spain.

Then, we'd see the Princeton instead of the "Big Three," and the Wizzards as a team would have a much, much bigger upside, imo. On the other side, Arenas is terribly entertaining and marketable, and this is show business after all, but only if the refs don't fool with the spread. Please.

JasonEvans
07-31-2007, 08:11 PM
It is worth noting that even though the Celts may have a MLE to give this year (and I am not 100% certain they do), the team is probably badly "capped out" and dangerously close to nasty luxury tax levels.

Last year, Celtics were at $62 million in team salary. Since then, they have added the $20+million deal of Kevin Garnett (the most expensive player in the NBA) as well as Ray Allen at around $15 million a season. Pierce makes more than $15 million as well. Those three guys alone are more than $50 million of salary.

They got rid of Wally's $11 million and Theo Ratliff's $11 million, but the other guys they got rid of, (Jefferson, Green, Gomes and the such) were making less than $2-million each. Heck, Gomes was making like $600-grand, a huge bargain for a very productive player.

I figure the Celts have added at least $10 million and probably more like $15 million in salary with their recent moves. They will go from the team with the #19 highest payroll to one of the 5 highest payrolls in the league.

I find it highly unlikely that they would sink another $5 million+ into another player on their roster. If they do have any cap room at all, they need to spread it out over 2 - 4 role players who can provide a little something off the bench for them. This is a woefully undertalented and inexperienced team after their top 3 players. They have a top 3 as good as any in the league, but you have to have at least a little bit of a bench.

--Jason "they really need Rondo to blossom this season and they have to hope to pick up some halfway decent vets for the minimum to fill out the roster" Evans

JasonEvans
07-31-2007, 10:23 PM
Here is (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=kgnewdeal) a well-done article from ESPN on the $60-million extension Garnett has signed with Boston and how his salary affects the Celtics. It has better numbers than my estimates in the above post but does come to the same conclusion I did which is:


To fill out the rest of this season's roster, NBA front-office sources indicate that Boston is expected to focus on minimum-salaried acquisitions, since it will have more than $56 million invested in Garnett, Pierce and Allen alone.

Garnett gave the Celtics a real discount starting in year 3 of his deal so they may be able to use their MLE that year to get some help to the big-3 but until 2009-2010, it is the big-3 and a bunch of minimum salary players.

-Jason "can the Celts win a title sorta playing 3-on-5? It will be interesting to see" Evans

SilkyJ
07-31-2007, 10:49 PM
-Jason "can the Celts win a title sorta playing 3-on-5? It will be interesting to see" Evans

Well if lebron can win the east 1.5 on 5...

phaedrus
07-31-2007, 11:18 PM
Well if lebron can win the east 1.5 on 5...

should be an interesting 3 on 1.5 match-up in the eastern finals.

gep
08-01-2007, 12:35 AM
I've been a Celtics fan since the Cousy/Russell years. Then the Havleick (sp?) years. Then the down years, to the Bird years, and since then :confused: . I hope all of the pundits who say this is the Celtics revival for the next 2-3 years is correct. I've been waiting to heartily cheer for the Celtics again since the Bird years.

As one columnist and other posters have said, if these guys can "mesh", the Celtics could be in the EC finals, and maybe even the NBA finals. One columnist pointed out that the "big 3" (sounds familiar? Bird,Parrish,McHale) are near the end of their careers, and the 3 of them together can actually make this happen... and that since they *are* near the end, they've been through the "self-glory" years, that if they decide that *together* they might be able to do it, I don't think team chemistry will be a problem. After all, these guys are veterans, and know how to handle themselves and teammates.

I've not been so excited about Celtics for a while now. Refreshing... :)

JasonEvans
08-01-2007, 08:35 AM
On "Mike and Mike" this morning, Greenie had an amazing stat. He said nothing demonstrates how big this deal is better than this and I tend to agree with him.

Prior to the Garnett deal, the Vegas casinos had the Celtics at 100-1 to win the NBA title. They were 75-1 to win the East.

Now, the Celtics are 5-1 to win the NBA title and 5-2 to win the East. They are the favorite in the East (next is Detroit at 3-1, then Cleveland at 4-1 and then Chicago and Miami at 5-1). The only teams with better odds to win the NBA title are Phoenix and Dallas (3-1) and the Spurs (4-1).

WOW!

-Jason "as an aside, Tim Legler says that Kevin McHale has now cemented his position as the worst GM in basketball and it ain't even close" Evans

thebur
08-01-2007, 09:40 AM
Yeah Jason, I saw that bit on Mike and Mike this morning. My friend (who is a lakers fan) was getting upset saying we are all buying into the media hype, and that could affect betting and the oddsmakers, but I think this change speaks volumes to the expectations for the Celts from a lot of people (read: gamblers) who watch the NBA very closely.

KrimsonKing
08-01-2007, 10:02 AM
the Celtics will still be coached by Doc Rivers, who is one of
the worst coaches I have ever seen...

MChambers
08-01-2007, 10:02 AM
A lot of teams have improved themselves making trades with Danny Ainge. I'll admit that the Celtics now have a very impressive threesome, but I am not convinced they have done much more than mortgage their future. First, traditionally in the NBA the key positions have been center and point guard, and they have major holes there.
Second, all three stars are past their peaks. There really is no telling how they will do the next year or two it would not be surprising to see at least one of them have a major injury. Having watched the Bulllets/Wizards do the "trade young players for old stars" thing for years, let me tell you that it is is highly overrated.
Third, the team is ridiculously shallow.

tombrady
08-01-2007, 10:11 AM
A lot of teams have improved themselves making trades with Danny Ainge. I'll admit that the Celtics now have a very impressive threesome, but I am not convinced they have done much more than mortgage their future. First, traditionally in the NBA the key positions have been center and point guard, and they have major holes there.
Second, all three stars are past their peaks. There really is no telling how they will do the next year or two – it would not be surprising to see at least one of them have a major injury. Having watched the Bulllets/Wizards do the "trade young players for old stars" thing for years, let me tell you that it is is highly overrated.
Third, the team is ridiculously shallow.

Absurd all around. Mortgage their future? First off, its tough to a) be super competitive now and b) develop young players. As a Celtics fan, I'd much rather have a 5-1 shot (or whatever) at winning the NBA title over the next 3 years then get too excited about what the 2014 NBA season might bring!

If you have the chance to go for it, in a weak Eastern Conf, you freaking go for it. Whats the point of a sports franchise -- to win championships, or constantly look ahead to "the future." Give me a break.

Garnett:
Career: 20.5 Pts, 11.4 Rebs
Last season: 22.4 Pts, 12.8 Rebs

Allen:
Career: 21.5 Pts, 3.9 Asts, 4.6 Rebs
Last Season: 26.4 Pts, 4.1 Asts, 4.5 Rebs (most points he's ever averaged)

How is this past their prime? Perhaps you should look at actual statistics instead of relying on the fact that they've been really really good in the league for a long time.

These players aren't J. Howard, and the off-season's not over yet -- they still have the MLE to find a PG, even though Rondo is quite good.

MChambers
08-01-2007, 11:03 AM
But I certainly don't appreciate your tone. Absurd? I don't think so.

Win the East? Great, and maybe you'll even take one game in the Finals.

The Celtics' record since Bird retired speaks for itself, BTW.

tombrady
08-01-2007, 11:38 AM
But I certainly don't appreciate your tone. Absurd? I don't think so.


I think saying 3 All-Stars, 2 of which are getting a fresh start with their first real chance at a championship recently, is pretty far from "past their primes" -- this isn't an old Shaq joining the Heat to hang on while DWade delievers the ring. Look at the stats -- these are 3 players still bringing it.



Win the East? Great, and maybe you'll even take one game in the Finals.


Wow. So half the league should just give up? I'm glad you're not in charge of my favorite team. You should have told Golden State to give up against Dallas.



The Celtics' record since Bird retired speaks for itself, BTW.


Exactly. Why wait another 5 years for draft picks to maybe or maybe not develop? You have a bold move in front of you, you take it. The Celtics are gonna be good again.

Its okay to be wrong man.

JasonEvans
08-01-2007, 01:03 PM
Lets try to stay calm here guys. Both of you can have opinions without insulting each other or getting angry.

As an aside, if the Celtics could make these deals... why not my Hawks?

-Jason "I have to think the Hawks could have had Allen and KG for Josh Smith and the #3 pick (and throw in some salary cap filler of course)" Evans

MChambers
08-01-2007, 01:33 PM
He said, calmly. :)

Pierce turns 30 in October, Garnett's already 31, and Allen is 32. I haven't seen any studies on this in basketball, but in baseball a player's peak is typically between 26 and 29. Players have great years outside those years, but they also have bad years, too (see Johnny Damon). They also tend to have more injuries as they age (ditto).

greybeard
08-01-2007, 05:30 PM
I'm with MChambers on this, which is not to say that those who are getting excited will necessarily be disappointed. I wouldn't make anything of the 5 to 1; says to me that the pros don't want any play until they get to see what's what.

The Hawks got the wrong GM and coach. Tired offensive concepts. Jason "if you throw in woody" Evans, I'd agree with you but only if you replace Woody with a coach who has some exciting offensive concepts. I understand Larry Drew is just such a guy, btw, from what my boyz on the AJC say. However, I'd have done the deal you suggest just for KG, and maybe tried to get away with Smith and the 11. Then, I'd have traded the 3, and gotten a later 1 and a two?

mgtr
08-01-2007, 07:33 PM
I agree that the Celts now have three older players, which is not the way to build for the future. But, if they have a run of two or three good years, that is a whole lot better than they have had for quite a while. Then, maybe they can palm off their really old guys for some new blood. Regardless of what happens four years from now, the next few years should be a big improvement. A positive step.

throatybeard
08-01-2007, 07:45 PM
At least (and I say this having grown up in Georgia) Atlanta's basketball management isn't as bad as its urban planning.

Buckeye Devil
08-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Although 30-32 year old players might be a little past prime, these ages are not ancient in basketball years. I am more concerned about the quality of the other players on the roster, or lack thereof. Regardless, the bottom line is that this is the best chance the Celtics have had in years to win-and this is good news to me as a long suffering Celtics fan.

The skeptical side of me hearkens back to the Laker experiment from a few years ago that went terribly awry. If the same scenario happens, then maybe those who say that the C's mortgaged the future will have a legitimate point. I hope not.

pfrduke
08-01-2007, 11:36 PM
Although 30-32 year old players might be a little past prime, these ages are not ancient in basketball years. I am more concerned about the quality of the other players on the roster, or lack thereof. Regardless, the bottom line is that this is the best chance the Celtics have had in years to win-and this is good news to me as a long suffering Celtics fan.

The skeptical side of me hearkens back to the Laker experiment from a few years ago that went terribly awry. If the same scenario happens, then maybe those who say that the C's mortgaged the future will have a legitimate point. I hope not.

Both Malone and Payton (I assume that's the Laker experiment to which you're referring) were very definitely no longer in their primes when they were added to the Lakers. They were added as complimentary parts, rather than as primary players (like Allen and Garnett).

I'm with you as to the quality of the other players on the roster. The Kid, the Truth, and Jesus Shuttlesworth ought to be good for 65-75 a game collectively, and KG will provide good defense inside (although Ray Allen is notoriously bad on the defensive end - he'll get torched routinely by guys like Carter and Gordon) - the keys are going to be Rondo's ability to avoid turnovers, get guys the ball in good position, and hit the occasional 15-20 footer (because he'll be open) and Kendrick Perkins' development into an 8, 10, and 3 guy who can give you a reliable 30 minutes a game without getting into foul trouble (his per/40 minutes numbers last season were 8.2, 9.4, 2.4, so he can, theoretically, do this).

They also need to find some minimum salary guys who are willing to play any role to win a title. It looks like HoopsHype has Eddie House and Jackie Manuel (!!!) listed on the Celtics roster now - guys like this (and Tony Allen, Scalabrine, and Powe) are going to be integral to the team's success, particularly when Allen, Pierce, and KG miss games (and they will) due to injury/old age (they've played 32 collective seasons, even if they're still all around 30).

The real question is going to be whether these three are sufficiently better than either the Arenas/Butler/Jamison or Kidd/Carter/Jefferson combos to overcome their holes at the other starting positions and on the bench to make some real noise in the East. Because the Wizards and Nets both have a big 3 of all-star caliber players, and neither is likely to make it out of the 2nd round next year. 3 guys alone can't win much without help from the rest of the team.

STLDukeFan4
08-03-2007, 01:35 AM
the Celtics will still be coached by Doc Rivers, who is one of
the worst coaches I have ever seen...


I love this post, and therefore I have to agree with it.

JasonEvans
08-03-2007, 10:05 AM
I am hearing that the Celts are reaching out to several established NBA veterans who probably would be available for the NBA minimum in the hope that guys who are a bit later in their careers will want to go for a title.

Among the names being mentioned are Chris Webber and Jalen Rose. It has been a few years, but Rose was once an NBA PG. Webber would be a great fit in the middle for Boston and could even be the starter there.

-Jason "the Mavs are also making a push for Webber and the Lakers want him because they need a 'name' to make Kobe happy" Evans