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View Full Version : Anthony Davis on Jimmy Kimmel reminds us what a joke the term student athlete is



FerryFor50
04-08-2012, 12:11 PM
http://m.yahoo.com/w/sports/ncaab/blogs/article?offset=1&urn=urn%3Anewsml%3Asports.yahoo%2Clego%3A19780928% 3Atop%2Carticle%2C003defdb-05cc-32ea-a6a9-fc9c56f43f84-l%3A1&.ts=1333901133&.tsrc=pcsports&.intl=us&.lang=en

Poor Davis had to be forced to go to class and would only return if he didn't have to go to class next year.

While probably somewhat tongue in cheek, also likely has an element of truth.

BD80
04-08-2012, 01:23 PM
http://m.yahoo.com/w/sports/ncaab/blogs/article?offset=1&urn=urn%3Anewsml%3Asports.yahoo%2Clego%3A19780928% 3Atop%2Carticle%2C003defdb-05cc-32ea-a6a9-fc9c56f43f84-l%3A1&.ts=1333901133&.tsrc=pcsports&.intl=us&.lang=en

Poor Davis had to be forced to go to class and would only return if he didn't have to go to class next year.

While probably somewhat tongue in cheek, also likely has an element of truth.

Wonder how his class attendance has been since the tournament?

Listen to Quants
04-08-2012, 01:47 PM
Wonder how his class attendance has been since the tournament?

:) And I wonder how his "progress toward graduation" will be reported/recorded if his attendance is what it sounds like.

mkline09
04-08-2012, 03:57 PM
How about the communications professor allowing him to bump back that speech not once but twice? Is that a perk allowed to other student's in the class? I think not :rolleyes:

Devil in the Blue Dress
04-08-2012, 04:33 PM
It's interesting how point of view can influence our perceptions.

I watched this same video and thought it was all quite silly and full of jokes..... Jimmy Kimmel sets a comical tone and keeps things that way throughout the interview. If this had been Austin Rivers being interviewed about his appearance and class attendance, perhaps it would not be taken so seriously.:cool:

Greg_Newton
04-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Here's a working link, btw http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger-college-basketball-blog/anthony-davis-nba-riches-mind-jimmy-kimmel-appearance-152900272.html

uh_no
04-08-2012, 05:09 PM
How about the communications professor allowing him to bump back that speech not once but twice? Is that a perk allowed to other student's in the class? I think not :rolleyes:

Be careful. Even at duke, Athletes get automatic deans excuses for away games...a "perk" not allowed to other students in the class.

hughgs
04-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Be careful. Even at duke, Athletes get automatic deans excuses for away games...a "perk" not allowed to other students in the class.

The deans excuses are not automatic. There's paperwork that needs to be filled out, same as any other student who wants a deans excuse.

Starter
04-08-2012, 06:29 PM
I'll tell you this, Anthony Davis can play for my team anytime.

mkline09
04-08-2012, 08:58 PM
It's interesting how point of view can influence our perceptions.

I watched this same video and thought it was all quite silly and full of jokes..... Jimmy Kimmel sets a comical tone and keeps things that way throughout the interview. If this had been Austin Rivers being interviewed about his appearance and class attendance, perhaps it would not be taken so seriously.:cool:

I'll be honest I'd be disappointed if Austin or any Duke player said he didn't go to class or he kept asking for extensions on assignments because he was a basketball player. I take on the old school approach that if you go to school, you go to school. That being said in all fairness to Davis I don't know what kind of student he is but I guess you can give him credit for going to the classes he is still going to. Not a lot of kids in his position would do so otherwise. Found it interesting that Davis said Calipari made them go to class.

langdonfan
04-08-2012, 09:23 PM
It's interesting how point of view can influence our perceptions.

I watched this same video and thought it was all quite silly and full of jokes..... Jimmy Kimmel sets a comical tone and keeps things that way throughout the interview. If this had been Austin Rivers being interviewed about his appearance and class attendance, perhaps it would not be taken so seriously.:cool:


I thought the exact same thing while watching this the other night when it was on Jimmy Kimmel. I cringed when he jokingly said that he'd come back if he didn't have to practice or go to class...just knew some would take it the wrong way...and here we go. This was clearly a joke.

Devil in the Blue Dress
04-08-2012, 09:34 PM
I'll be honest I'd be disappointed if Austin or any Duke player said he didn't go to class or he kept asking for extensions on assignments because he was a basketball player. I take on the old school approach that if you go to school, you go to school. That being said in all fairness to Davis I don't know what kind of student he is but I guess you can give him credit for going to the classes he is still going to. Not a lot of kids in his position would do so otherwise. Found it interesting that Davis said Calipari made them go to class.
I don't take what's said on this video literally. My point was simply that people may be taking offense mostly because the player is from Kentucky. The extent to which Davis was good natured about Kimmel poking fun about his looks is a significant clue as to the humorous nature of the entire conversation. It's a matter of context. Had a Duke player engaged in the same sort of humor, it might be thought to be quite entertaining and obviously not true.

This is much as we've been trying to teach students for years: just because it's on the Internet/in print, doesn't make it true or accurate.

Dr. Rosenrosen
04-08-2012, 09:34 PM
:) And I wonder how his "progress toward graduation" will be reported/recorded if his attendance is what it sounds like.

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but with all the early departures from Kentucky, I wonder if/when this may turn out to haunt them later with regard to the APR. Or perhaps they are finding ways to ensure these guys remain in academic "good standing."

uh_no
04-08-2012, 10:03 PM
The deans excuses are not automatic. There's paperwork that needs to be filled out, same as any other student who wants a deans excuse.

http://www.pratt.duke.edu/policies-procedures#novap
http://trinity.duke.edu/academic-requirements?p=notification-of-varsity-athletic-participation-novap

That is not the case

As the link indicates once the student submits the form saying they are an athlete, students simply submit a form online ala the short term illness form saying they won't be in class. There isn't any approval from the dean needed at this point. The discretion of whether it is being misused is explicitly left to the professor. I don't know how it works in practice, I'm not an athlete and have never asked them about it, but the policies are factual, and leave very much leeway for the student and professor to work out.

The overall point which I was contesting, though, was that at duke, apparently as at kentucky, athletes are given certain "perks" (as it was worded in the other post) which are not available to other students.

hughgs
04-08-2012, 10:54 PM
http://www.pratt.duke.edu/policies-procedures#novap
http://trinity.duke.edu/academic-requirements?p=notification-of-varsity-athletic-participation-novap

That is not the case

As the link indicates once the student submits the form saying they are an athlete, students simply submit a form online ala the short term illness form saying they won't be in class. There isn't any approval from the dean needed at this point. The discretion of whether it is being misused is explicitly left to the professor. I don't know how it works in practice, I'm not an athlete and have never asked them about it, but the policies are factual, and leave very much leeway for the student and professor to work out.

The overall point which I was contesting, though, was that at duke, apparently as at kentucky, athletes are given certain "perks" (as it was worded in the other post) which are not available to other students.

The below sentences are from the Pratt link:

"This letter, signed by the Dean of Trinity College and by Brad Berndt, Associate Athletics Director, is accompanied by a schedule of that semester's varsity athletic competitions."

"Because athletic absences are pre-scheduled events, student athletes are expected to submit a form no later than one week prior to their participation in each varsity athletic competition out of town."

I'm not sure how those statements contradict my assertion that athletes have to fill out paperwork the same as other students.

captmojo
04-09-2012, 07:07 AM
Whether Kentucky kids go to class or graduate...I care not. I will continue to support Gardner-Webb.



Oh yeah! Weber State as well. :D

SupaDave
04-09-2012, 08:03 AM
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but with all the early departures from Kentucky, I wonder if/when this may turn out to haunt them later with regard to the APR. Or perhaps they are finding ways to ensure these guys remain in academic "good standing."

What do you think their bench players are for? You don't hear UNC folks getting ready for a "Blue Steel" member to start.

gus
04-09-2012, 09:34 AM
http://m.yahoo.com/w/sports/ncaab/blogs/article?offset=1&urn=urn%3Anewsml%3Asports.yahoo%2Clego%3A19780928% 3Atop%2Carticle%2C003defdb-05cc-32ea-a6a9-fc9c56f43f84-l%3A1&.ts=1333901133&.tsrc=pcsports&.intl=us&.lang=en

Poor Davis had to be forced to go to class and would only return if he didn't have to go to class next year.

While probably somewhat tongue in cheek, also likely has an element of truth.

You do realize that student athletes graduate at a higher rate than non-athletes, right? One and done basketball players are the exception, not the norm. There is no reason to spread your aspersion so widely.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 09:54 AM
You do realize that student athletes graduate at a higher rate than non-athletes, right? One and done basketball players are the exception, not the norm. There is no reason to spread your aspersion so widely.

So you think this sort of thing doesn't spit in the eye of the term "student athlete"? I understand that one and done are not the norm, but they're becoming more prevalent and the fact that Cal won a championship with this formula means that more coaches will likely be looking at this approach.

There are LOTS of reasons student athletes might graduate at a higher rate:

- many of them get free rides; many non-student athletes probably don't graduate because they can't afford school/living costs any more or they have to work just to keep up, which hinders their studies
- the incentive of playing their sport helps ensure they keep their grades up
- student athletes often have accesses to resources that other students might not have (free tutors, etc)
- a number of student athletes major in areas that some might call "cakewalks"

That said, I'd be interested in seeing actual numbers on this, and even more interested on seeing the numbers on student athletes ONLY in the major sports like football, basketball, etc and leave out the non-money makers, since you're more apt to find what's closer to a true "student athlete" in those sports.

I found this Time article:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2063677,00.html

I also found this blog:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/dumb-jocks-and-student-athlete-propaganda/

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 09:57 AM
I don't take what's said on this video literally. My point was simply that people may be taking offense mostly because the player is from Kentucky. The extent to which Davis was good natured about Kimmel poking fun about his looks is a significant clue as to the humorous nature of the entire conversation. It's a matter of context. Had a Duke player engaged in the same sort of humor, it might be thought to be quite entertaining and obviously not true.

This is much as we've been trying to teach students for years: just because it's on the Internet/in print, doesn't make it true or accurate.

He was being good natured, but that's part of the problem - it's making light of a hole in the system. I don't care that he's from Kentucky. You don't hear Austin Rivers saying that sort of thing. What you DO see is Austin Rivers going to class after declaring for the draft and Austin Rivers wanting to get his degree from Duke.

This isn't about one and dones... this is about the charade that John Calipari puts on.

SilkyJ
04-09-2012, 10:00 AM
How about the communications professor allowing him to bump back that speech not once but twice? Is that a perk allowed to other student's in the class? I think not :rolleyes:

Professors everywhere (even at Duke!) allow student-athletes to push back deadlines based on games, tournaments, etc. This isn't unusual.

That said, he clearly makes a mockery of being a student. Not really his fault though, the system is broken. The #1 option for amateur players after HS is to go to college b/c they can't go pro, even if they have no interest in being in school. Sure you can go to Europe or I think even the NBDL (??) but the best competition, the best place to learn, the best option if you want to get drafted into the NBA, is to play in college.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 10:01 AM
Professors everywhere (even at Duke!) allow student-athletes to push back deadlines based on games, tournaments, etc. This isn't unusual.

That said, he clearly makes a mockery of being a student. Not really his fault though, the system is broken. The #1 option for amateur players after HS is to go to college b/c they can't go pro, even if they have no interest in being in school. Sure you can go to Europe or I think even the NBDL (??) but the best competition, the best place to learn, the best option if you want to get drafted into the NBA, is to play in college.

Agreed. I don't have a problem with Davis. He seems like a nice kid and is very well spoken.

But the system is a joke...

mkline09
04-09-2012, 10:05 AM
Professors everywhere (even at Duke!) allow student-athletes to push back deadlines based on games, tournaments, etc. This isn't unusual.

That said, he clearly makes a mockery of being a student. Not really his fault though, the system is broken. The #1 option for amateur players after HS is to go to college b/c they can't go pro, even if they have no interest in being in school. Sure you can go to Europe or I think even the NBDL (??) but the best competition, the best place to learn, the best option if you want to get drafted into the NBA, is to play in college.

Completely agree. I had a class in college with a couple of basketball players and at the beginning of the semester the instructor told us that there would be a strick attendance policy and that if you missed more than 3 classes their would be no way of passing. He also said he would take attendance every class to keep track. Granted this was a coaching basketball class, he told us how strict he would be. As it turned out those two basketball players made maybe half of the classes and that attendance policy, well that just went away. So I get it I do, but I don't think it is very fair for the rest of us, but life isn't fair so I just complain about it :)

MaxAMillion
04-09-2012, 10:11 AM
I skipped class all the time when I was in college. I think back in those days you could miss as many as 10 classes a semester and I made sure to hit my limit. I also got people to sign in for me attending class when I wasn't there (a lot of students did this for each other back then). There are a lot of regular students who don't think much of college. A lot of regular students who spend more time going to parties and trying to get laid rather than attending class. A lot of people like to look down on these athletes for not being interested in class, but I remember going to school with lots of students who didn't care about class either.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 10:22 AM
I skipped class all the time when I was in college. I think back in those days you could miss as many as 10 classes a semester and I made sure to hit my limit. I also got people to sign in for me attending class when I wasn't there (a lot of students did this for each other back then). There are a lot of regular students who don't think much of college. A lot of regular students who spend more time going to parties and trying to get laid rather than attending class. A lot of people like to look down on these athletes for not being interested in class, but I remember going to school with lots of students who didn't care about class either.

Kids partied and still managed to graduate in most cases...

niveklaen
04-09-2012, 11:33 AM
Skipping classes was pretty normal when I was a student at Duke - hand in your papers and show up for your tests - if you know the material at the end of the semester no one should care whether you spent time in a room designated for teaching you that material. I can only remember one class that actually had an attendance policy/requirement. Maybe Duke has turned into a nanny state in the two decades since I left...

also I really dont think the one and dones undermine the system - there are 3000+ division one basketball players. Less than 1% are one and done. The progress toward graduation requirements provides incentives for the other 99% and the lack of a degree for the 1% that go pro is no more tragic than it is for Bill Gates, who also dropped out of school to go pro.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 12:13 PM
Skipping classes was pretty normal when I was a student at Duke - hand in your papers and show up for your tests - if you know the material at the end of the semester no one should care whether you spent time in a room designated for teaching you that material. I can only remember one class that actually had an attendance policy/requirement. Maybe Duke has turned into a nanny state in the two decades since I left...

also I really dont think the one and dones undermine the system - there are 3000+ division one basketball players. Less than 1% are one and done. The progress toward graduation requirements provides incentives for the other 99% and the lack of a degree for the 1% that go pro is no more tragic than it is for Bill Gates, who also dropped out of school to go pro.

I don't have a problem with kids going pro. I have a problem with the flaunting of the system. At least pay the lip service of being a student athlete instead of joking about how much class you ditched knowing you were only staying a year because you had to.

Either stop forcing kids to go to school for a year or have some sort of penalty system for one and done kids where the school loses that scholarship for a year if a kid goes pro (or maybe some penalty not as harsh). That way, you don't see schools like Kentucky stockpiling one and done players.

As for Bill Gates, I don't think he had a free ride to school. In fact, many kids who leave school early for careers don't have free rides. If they did, would they leave school early?

Rich
04-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Be careful. Even at duke, Athletes get automatic deans excuses for away games...a "perk" not allowed to other students in the class.

This obviously goes back a ways, but when I was at Duke I was friendly with Quin Snyder and we were in an Econ class together. Not only did he have access to amazing study guides as an athlete that he showed to me (although I had no way of possessing them since I was not an athlete) but also, I believe, a tutor. It's foolish to think things have changed. Frankly, for all the time they travel, I think D1 athletes deserve some extra perks and I did not begrudge him at all, although I was certainly jealous (and Quin had a lot of attributes a guy could be jealous about).

DukeDevilDeb
04-09-2012, 12:38 PM
That student athletes are the only ones who ask for and get extensions on their papers, tests, and every other imaginable assignment? I teach at Duke, have lots of the basketball players in class, and--with one or two exceptions over 25 years--have found that the athletes ask for fewer extensions than do non-athletes. Can Christian Laettner get an extension on a paper that is due the day after the national championship game? Sure. Can Buzz Skippy--even though he is NOT an athlete--get an extension on a paper that is due the day after the national championship game? Sure. What about the day after his fraternity party? After his parents' weekend visit?


It has been my long-held belief that I grant extensions virtually any time a student asks. I do this because I have 25 years of data saying that if students really NEED an extension, they will do an excellent job on the assignment... but if they are just phutzing around and wasting time, the extension isn't going to do them any good at all!

Our men and women athletes are terrific for the most part. That being said, you guys better get your final papers in on time! ;)

Starter
04-09-2012, 02:07 PM
I had a class once with a few basketball players who came to the first class, then the last class to hand in the final paper, and nothing in between. I assume they did fine; in the interest of full disclosure, though I typically rarely missed a class, I only deemed it necessary to go to that particular class about half the time. Similarly, I had a couple classes with Battier, including a math class (he got an A, I got a B), and he was there literally every session. I also had a very smart friend who literally never went to an intro Chemistry class except for tests, actually specifically taking pride in taking a nap during that time period; he got an A. Obviously, Duke has higher academic standards than other schools, but it has its share of slack-jobs, basketball players or not.

And I'll reiterate... Anthony Davis can play for my team anytime.

gus
04-09-2012, 02:33 PM
I don't have a problem with kids going pro. I have a problem with the flaunting of the system. At least pay the lip service of being a student athlete instead of joking about how much class you ditched knowing you were only staying a year because you had to.

Either stop forcing kids to go to school for a year or have some sort of penalty system for one and done kids where the school loses that scholarship for a year if a kid goes pro (or maybe some penalty not as harsh). That way, you don't see schools like Kentucky stockpiling one and done players.

As for Bill Gates, I don't think he had a free ride to school. In fact, many kids who leave school early for careers don't have free rides. If they did, would they leave school early?

I think you mean flout, not flaunt (http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/flaunt.html).

Most athletes do not get "free rides". I'm not defending one and done basketball players, but the overwhelming majority of NCAA student-athletes (who are usually students first) you are attacking with broad strokes.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 02:47 PM
I think you mean flout, not flaunt (http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/flaunt.html).

Most athletes do not get "free rides". I'm not defending one and done basketball players, but the overwhelming majority of NCAA student-athletes (who are usually students first) you are attacking with broad strokes.

I'm not attacking student athletes. I'm attacking one and dones and how they cheapen the term student athlete. There is a limit on characters in the titles of threads, so allow me to add "becoming due to one and dones" to the title.

I also did not say "most" get free rides. I said "many."

And yes, I probably meant flout, not flaunt.

ChicagoCrazy84
04-09-2012, 02:48 PM
I had a class once with a few basketball players who came to the first class, then the last class to hand in the final paper, and nothing in between. I assume they did fine; in the interest of full disclosure, though I typically rarely missed a class, I only deemed it necessary to go to that particular class about half the time. Similarly, I had a couple classes with Battier, including a math class (he got an A, I got a B), and he was there literally every session. I also had a very smart friend who literally never went to an intro Chemistry class except for tests, actually specifically taking pride in taking a nap during that time period; he got an A. Obviously, Duke has higher academic standards than other schools, but it has its share of slack-jobs, basketball players or not.

And I'll reiterate... Anthony Davis can play for my team anytime.


Yep, I went to Arizona and studied Journalism and Communications. Comm was a popular major for athletes and it was the same thing. I remember I saw Andre Iguodala maybe 2 times the semester he was in my class. Rolled in the first few classes and that was basically it. Football was a bit different, but still mostly the same idea. It's not a product of the student, it's a product of the system. It needs to be changed as its a joke.

Anthony Davis can play for me, student or no student. I had never really heard him speak, but I enjoyed watching this clip. He does seem really genuine. Loved him talking about his unibrow. Lol

Duke Mom
04-09-2012, 03:43 PM
Interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/sports/ncaabasketball/begrudging-the-kentucky-wildcats-success-and-opportunities.html?ref=sports

"In an ideal world, everyone would stay four years and graduate. But Kentucky’s basketball program is in fact a tribute to a real-world system that works, preparing young people for a viable profession — in this case, professional athletics."

cruxer
04-09-2012, 04:00 PM
This seems like a rehash of the interminable thread last about the hypocrisy of the NCAA and "amateurism," but if Anthony Davis is indeed going pro, as most expect, he should be getting ready to go pro and for the rest of his life, not necessarily focusing on class. I'd imagine most bball players take a relatively light 2nd-semester load, so maybe he can do both, but the focus should definitely be on his career. He should be selfish and do what's best for him. It's not his fault (nor is it Calipari's for that matter) that the NBA and NCAA have such asinine rules that essentially force the best high school players to pretend to be "real college students*" for a year.

*During my time in college there were plenty of kids who were there for only a semester or a year, almost always for much worse reasons than signing multi-million dollar contracts for employment. We always considered them real students, regardless of whether they went to class. Some of them were even fun to be around, if not influenced by. They added to my college experience. ;)

yancem
04-09-2012, 04:45 PM
So you think this sort of thing doesn't spit in the eye of the term "student athlete"? I understand that one and done are not the norm, but they're becoming more prevalent and the fact that Cal won a championship with this formula means that more coaches will likely be looking at this approach.

There are LOTS of reasons student athletes might graduate at a higher rate:

- many of them get free rides; many non-student athletes probably don't graduate because they can't afford school/living costs any more or they have to work just to keep up, which hinders their studies
- the incentive of playing their sport helps ensure they keep their grades up
- student athletes often have accesses to resources that other students might not have (free tutors, etc)
- a number of student athletes major in areas that some might call "cakewalks"

That said, I'd be interested in seeing actual numbers on this, and even more interested on seeing the numbers on student athletes ONLY in the major sports like football, basketball, etc and leave out the non-money makers, since you're more apt to find what's closer to a true "student athlete" in those sports.

I found this Time article:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2063677,00.html

I also found this blog:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/dumb-jocks-and-student-athlete-propaganda/

Many coaches have probably trying to emulate his approach for years but it isn't a realistic approach for more than 2-3 coaches simply because there aren't that many one and done caliber players every year. Heck, there are only 30 first round picks each year and there are always at least 5-10 upper class men and 5-10 foreign players drafted in the first round each year. I doubt that the average number of legitimate one and dones (meaning first round picks, there are always a few that over estimate their skills) each year is higher than 7 or 8. That's not enough recruits for more than a couple of schools and Kentucky seems to always have 2 or 3 of those.

gus
04-09-2012, 04:52 PM
I'm not attacking student athletes. I'm attacking one and dones and how they cheapen the term student athlete. There is a limit on characters in the titles of threads, so allow me to add "becoming due to one and dones" to the title.

In that case, I agree with you that one and dones cheapen the concept of student-athlete (and amateurism), but not to the point that I'd consider the term "student athlete" to be a joke.

dcdevil2009
04-09-2012, 05:33 PM
So you think this sort of thing doesn't spit in the eye of the term "student athlete"? I understand that one and done are not the norm, but they're becoming more prevalent and the fact that Cal won a championship with this formula means that more coaches will likely be looking at this approach.


The stats just don't back up the statement that one and dones are becoming more prevalent. They might be getting more attention, but they aren't growing in number from year to year.

2007 - 8. Three from Ohio State, two from Georgia Tech
2008 - 12. Two from Kansas State, two from UCLA
2009 - 4.
2010 - 10. Four from Kentucky.
2011 - 7 (Including Kanter). Two from Kentucky, two from Texas.

It's a small sample size, but nothing seems to indicate an upward trend in the annual number of one and dones. Maybe a school's academics play a role in where one and dones tend to go, but even at Kentucky, as Anthony Davis mentioned, they still have to go to class. I think it tends to be individuals and not the system that cheapen the idea of the student athlete. Sure, there are guys who will stop going to class the minute their eligibility doesn't depend on it, but there are plenty of guys like Kyrie Irving, John Wall, and Kevin Durant who kept going to class after their seasons ended and have continued to make progress toward their degrees in the off season (or during the lockout). And with the way the APR excepts students who leave to go professional, you can't say that their just doing it to avoid sanctions for their schools.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 05:59 PM
The stats just don't back up the statement that one and dones are becoming more prevalent. They might be getting more attention, but they aren't growing in number from year to year.

2007 - 8. Three from Ohio State, two from Georgia Tech
2008 - 12. Two from Kansas State, two from UCLA
2009 - 4.
2010 - 10. Four from Kentucky.
2011 - 7 (Including Kanter). Two from Kentucky, two from Texas.

It's a small sample size, but nothing seems to indicate an upward trend in the annual number of one and dones. Maybe a school's academics play a role in where one and dones tend to go, but even at Kentucky, as Anthony Davis mentioned, they still have to go to class. I think it tends to be individuals and not the system that cheapen the idea of the student athlete. Sure, there are guys who will stop going to class the minute their eligibility doesn't depend on it, but there are plenty of guys like Kyrie Irving, John Wall, and Kevin Durant who kept going to class after their seasons ended and have continued to make progress toward their degrees in the off season (or during the lockout). And with the way the APR excepts students who leave to go professional, you can't say that their just doing it to avoid sanctions for their schools.

So how many one and dones before the NBA rule was instituted? And how many "straight to NBA"?

I think it's become much more prevalent since the 80s and 90s...

And I'd argue that 10 last year and 4 from the same school could qualify as "more prevalent." :)

greybeard
04-09-2012, 06:22 PM
Skipping classes was pretty normal when I was a student at Duke - hand in your papers and show up for your tests - if you know the material at the end of the semester no one should care whether you spent time in a room designated for teaching you that material. I can only remember one class that actually had an attendance policy/requirement. Maybe Duke has turned into a nanny state in the two decades since I left...

also I really dont think the one and dones undermine the system - there are 3000+ division one basketball players. Less than 1% are one and done. The progress toward graduation requirements provides incentives for the other 99% and the lack of a degree for the 1% that go pro is no more tragic than it is for Bill Gates, who also dropped out of school to go pro.

You might find this of interest: the progenitor of Hasidic Judaism, said to have been brilliant, refused to permit his followers to write down anything he said. Current science in essence has confirmed what this noted Rebbe understood: that one who tries to capture in writing what a learned person has to say will miss and misapprehend much. That is not to say that students who attend lectures will not pick up enough about trees to be of help on tests. As for seeing nuance in trees, or even comprehending the existence of forest, perhaps not so much. As compared to the guy who only reads and deconstructs books, who knows.

throatybeard
04-09-2012, 08:32 PM
I put a Draconian attendance policy on the syllabus to scare the kids and then I proceed to ignore it at the end of the semester, because, with very few exceptions, the ones who don't show up perform poorly so the problem takes care of itself. At Duke, NC State, and Mississippi State, I enrolled very few varsity athletes and no revenue varsity athletes, for whatever reason. I did tutor two football players in Ron Butters' IntroLing. UMSL is DII and I think I've had a couple softball gals. Athletes have extensive academic support staff at their disposal.

Given the more-selective student body, a place like Duke is going to have more kids who screw off all semester and waltz into a final and ace it. I wasn't one of those kids at Duke, and while I did miss some classes when I didn't feel well, I didn't do so frivolously, because I felt to do so was a waste of my late grandfather's money. He left me just about exactly enough money to get through Duke on the principle and I was crap-my-pants-lucky to graduate without debt.

I dispute the notion that classes are harder simply because they're at Duke. Of course, it depends what "harder" means. If it means "harder to get a good grade" my classes at NC State and two at Carolina were much harder than those at Duke, for me.

I gave 2 As in the Baby Syntax course last fall, which is what I suspect led to the Dean asking me to be on a committee about Latin Honors. I would teach the course more or less the same way were I still a grad student at Duke, adjunct at State, faculty at Mississippi State, or faculty here. I'd probably be [even] more lenient about life issues at UMSL than I would at other places given student demographics, but I'm me--it would be the same class, basically. The kids need to learn the same stuff.

Some professors grade easier and some harder. This has nothing to do with the inherent difficulty of the highest level of the actual disciplines. The name of the school has next to nothing to do with anything. I had a colleague at Mississippi State who taught History of the Language and gave 16 Fs in a class of 20.

dcdevil2009
04-09-2012, 09:47 PM
So how many one and dones before the NBA rule was instituted? And how many "straight to NBA"?

I think it's become much more prevalent since the 80s and 90s...

And I'd argue that 10 last year and 4 from the same school could qualify as "more prevalent." :)

Here's is what Tommy posted in the most recent one and done opinion thread (his recent numbers are somewhat different because I only included those who were drafted):



In 1996, three freshmen came out: a juco guy nobody's heard of, plus Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Stephon Marbury. Three high schoolers, including Kobe Bryant, came out.

In 1997, two freshmen and one high schooler (Tracy McGrady) came out.

In 1998, three freshmen (one at a juco) and four high schoolers came out.

In 1999, four freshmen (including Corey Maggette) and two high schoolers came out.

In 2000, three freshmen and two high schoolers came out.

In 2001, nine freshmen and six high schoolers (including 3 of the first four draft picks -- Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, and Eddie Curry) came out.

In 2002, six freshmen (four of whom you've never heard of) and four high schoolers (including Amare Stoudemire) came out.

In 2003, three freshmen came out: a guy named Jonathan Hargett, and two guys named Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh. Five high schoolers came out, including LeBron James.

In 2004, five freshmen (including, sigh, Luol Deng and Kris Humphries) and nine high schoolers (including Dwight Howard and Shaun Livingston) came out.

In 2005, three freshmen (including Marvin Williams) and eleven high schoolers came out.



At this point, the "one and done" rule came into effect. So then:



In 2006, two freshmen came out.

In 2007, nine freshmen, including Greg Oden and Kevin Durant, came out.

In 2008, 14 freshmen, led by Derrick Rose, came out.

In 2009, five freshmen came out.

In 2010, eleven freshmen, led by John Wall, came out.

And in 2011, Kyrie Irving (again, sigh) led a group of nine freshmen to come out.

I'll give you that it is more prevalent than before the age restriction, so maybe there is some correlation between the four or so players per year who wouldn't have gone to school if they didn't have to and a flouting of the student athlete ideal, although I'm not sure I'd bet on it.

I'm not sure how four from one school makes it any more prevalent than the fourteen with two from UCLA and KSU in 2008, especially when all four went in the first round of the draft. If it were a situation where freshman were leaving to be second round picks or go undrafted in increasingly large numbers, I'd be more apt to agree that it does a disservice to the student athlete concept. However, that doesn't seem to be the case with the numbers being relatively stable from year to year.

FerryFor50
04-09-2012, 11:23 PM
Here's is what Tommy posted in the most recent one and done opinion thread (his recent numbers are somewhat different because I only included those who were drafted):




I'll give you that it is more prevalent than before the age restriction, so maybe there is some correlation between the four or so players per year who wouldn't have gone to school if they didn't have to and a flouting of the student athlete ideal, although I'm not sure I'd bet on it.

I'm not sure how four from one school makes it any more prevalent than the fourteen with two from UCLA and KSU in 2008, especially when all four went in the first round of the draft. If it were a situation where freshman were leaving to be second round picks or go undrafted in increasingly large numbers, I'd be more apt to agree that it does a disservice to the student athlete concept. However, that doesn't seem to be the case with the numbers being relatively stable from year to year.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see the sample size grow after the one and done approach's success this year.

I suspect a drop in one and dones this year because there are really only 3-4 guys who could possibly be good enough to consider it.

But we'll see...

Duke Mom
04-10-2012, 09:05 AM
Another interesting perspective on the "student athlete."

This article recants an anecdote from former UNC football player, Deunta Williams, who said that the UNC football players could only take courses approved by the athletic department, so that coursework would not interfere with practice. Swahili was taken as the language requirement, "Because the athletic department tutors are strong in Swahili."

The writer, Joe Nocera, suggests that athletes be allowed to major in their sport - football major, basketball major, etc. as dancers do at other universities. (He also believes college athletes should be paid.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/opinion/nocera-football-and-swahili.html?hp

Jderf
04-10-2012, 10:16 AM
I'm not attacking student athletes. I'm attacking one and dones and how they cheapen the term student athlete.

I think it tends to be individuals and not the system that cheapen the idea of the student athlete.

I agree that the source of the problem lies in individuals, and not necessarily the system*. But I disagree about which individuals are to blame.

(*Although by now the problem has become pretty deeply ingrained in the system as well.)

Sometimes I wonder why it is the one-and-dones themselves who receive all the blame for "cheapening" the term student-athlete. The way I see it, they are only illustrating the fact that the term has actually been pretty cheap for a few decades now. I would say that the people who performed the actual "cheapening" itself were the NCAA and BCS executives, who all started signing big time television contracts the moment that college sports became profitable. IMO, they were the ones who actually destroyed the idea of the student-athlete.

The players themselves are only playing the game according to the way the board was set up.

FerryFor50
04-10-2012, 11:11 AM
I agree that the source of the problem lies in individuals, and not necessarily the system*. But I disagree about which individuals are to blame.

(*Although by now the problem has become pretty deeply ingrained in the system as well.)

Sometimes I wonder why it is the one-and-dones themselves who receive all the blame for "cheapening" the term student-athlete. The way I see it, they are only illustrating the fact that the term has actually been pretty cheap for a few decades now. I would say that the people who performed the actual "cheapening" itself were the NCAA and BCS executives, who all started signing big time television contracts the moment that college sports became profitable. IMO, they were the ones who actually destroyed the idea of the student-athlete.

The players themselves are only playing the game according to the way the board was set up.

Agreed. They're using the system and the system uses them.

But who gets left holding the bag? The fans and the legitimate student athletes.

dcdevil2009
04-10-2012, 12:09 PM
I would say that the people who performed the actual "cheapening" itself were the NCAA and BCS executives, who all started signing big time television contracts the moment that college sports became profitable. IMO, they were the ones who actually destroyed the idea of the student-athlete.

The players themselves are only playing the game according to the way the board was set up.

I think it's sometimes forgotten that the NCAA is technically a non-profit entity, and although the executives are garnering huge (some would say obscene) salaries, most of the money from those multi-billion dollar television contracts is actually going back to the member schools, which they are in turn using to fund non-revenue sports. Considering that almost all university athletic departments operate at a loss, it's unclear whether many of the non-revenue college sports could actually exist, especially when so many programs are already being cut for financial reasons with TV money flowing in.

As to your point about players playing according to the way the board was set up, I agree, but just because they're able to do something, doesn't mean they should. As other posters in this thread have mentioned, one might not need to go to class to get an A in a course. However, one person's absence can cheapen (detract from might be a better description) the learning environment for the rest of the class. To use Kentucky as an example, if Daniel Orton can do as little work as he was alleged to have done and yet still remain eligible, it cheapens the effort guys like John Wall and Brandon Knight put in academically during their relatively short tenures as student-athletes. So, while taking advantage of a flawed system might be excusable, that shouldn't also mean it's acceptable.

sagegrouse
04-10-2012, 12:48 PM
I agree that the source of the problem lies in individuals, and not necessarily the system*. But I disagree about which individuals are to blame.

(*Although by now the problem has become pretty deeply ingrained in the system as well.)

Sometimes I wonder why it is the one-and-dones themselves who receive all the blame for "cheapening" the term student-athlete. The way I see it, they are only illustrating the fact that the term has actually been pretty cheap for a few decades now. I would say that the people who performed the actual "cheapening" itself were the NCAA and BCS executives, who all started signing big time television contracts the moment that college sports became profitable. IMO, they were the ones who actually destroyed the idea of the student-athlete.

The players themselves are only playing the game according to the way the board was set up.


Agreed. They're using the system and the system uses them.

But who gets left holding the bag? The fans and the legitimate student athletes.


I think it's sometimes forgotten that the NCAA is technically a non-profit entity, and although the executives are garnering huge (some would say obscene) salaries, most of the money from those multi-billion dollar television contracts is actually going back to the member schools, which they are in turn using to fund non-revenue sports. Considering that almost all university athletic departments operate at a loss, it's unclear whether many of the non-revenue college sports could actually exist, especially when so many programs are already being cut for financial reasons with TV money flowing in.



I guess one could start with a blanket eight-word statement:

There are built-in contradictions in "big-time" "college" "athletics."

And these contradictions will never be resolved.

Next question? Not to be impolite to those making sweeping statements, which I believe are sincere, but most proposals for radical change are unrealistic. Now in an alternative universe, with sports clubs in each town and/or city teams in every sport, college athletics could and would be radically different. But I just described Europe and parts of Latin America, not the US.

In the US, big-time college athletics -- football, natch -- took hold in the 1920s and hasn't relinquished its grip on the American public. And, I don't see any forces that will make college athletics less than really big-time. And of course, college alums live 50 years or much longer after graduation and will continue to expect their schools to give it the old college try.

In this context, one-and-done is a detail, and while it is causing anguish among schools and fans alike, all the parties can do is work within the constraints. "Play for pay" is not a detail but causes many, many problems. "Academics" is one of the big contradictions in that the best players are not often the best students, or even decent students, or even very interested in studies. "Big-time" means big money, which pays the bills but creates concerns about who's driving the university carriage. I remember when the Auburn president had to resign when he took a trip to meet another football coach and appeared to undermint Turbeville, the current coach. "Athletics," even in so-called minor sports, seems like a full-time job and even more so in football and basketball. BTW I have a lot of respect for athletes that can do well on the court and still handle the academics, the press, the social life and so on -- really an accomplishment.

sagegrouse