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View Full Version : Lay Off Britney? (Front Page Story)



Turtleboy
04-05-2012, 09:35 AM
How in the world does this :

“She’s one of a kind. She’s like a guy playing with women. It’s just there’s so many things that she can do that I’ve not seen a lot of women (do).” (Muffett McGraw)

constitute picking on someone? What am I missing?

wgl1228
04-05-2012, 09:45 AM
In our politically correct world today you can't say anything that sounds sexist even if its true. In this case by saying Brittany plays like a man its hinting that men are physically stronger than women (something everyone knows but for some reason can't say in public). The world has gone nuts!

OldPhiKap
04-05-2012, 09:51 AM
I thought McGraw's comments were pretty much stating the obvious, frankly. Britney is a physically gifted player who does things you do not normally see in women's basketball. I am sure it was not meant as an insult. If a player can slam dunk, let alone almost flat-footed, that's more indictative of what you see in men's basketball not women's. Doesn't make either better or worse -- but you can't ignore that there is a difference.

wilko
04-05-2012, 09:54 AM
I think the reaction to the story is a non-story.
Is there some back-story to the story, that makes the reaction to the story a real story?

(say that 3xs fast..)

roywhite
04-05-2012, 09:54 AM
In our politically correct world today you can't say anything that sounds sexist even if its true. In this case by saying Brittany plays like a man its hinting that men are physically stronger than women (something everyone knows but for some reason can't say in public). The world has gone nuts!

No, I'd say the issue involves suggestions or speculation that Brittney is a man.

Is this a similar situation to that with Caster Semenya, the terrific South African middle distance runner, who was subjecteed to gender testing, suspended from competition, and later re-instated?

One thing unfortunate here is that Brittney seems to face harsher treatment than many athletes who intentionally use performance enhancing drugs; there is no indication that Brittney has cheated or been deceptive.

wilko
04-05-2012, 09:59 AM
No, I'd say the issue involves suggestions or speculation that Brittney is a man.

Is this a similar situation to that with Caster Semenya, the terrific South African middle distance runner, who was subjected to gender testing, suspended from competition, and later re-instated?

Ahh - some back-story..

I dunno I didn't get that take from the story at all. It didn't feel like an accusation to me.
If you made that kind of accusation w/o proof that's a slippery slope... and even if you HAD proof what does that say about who went to the trouble to obtain it?

jimsumner
04-05-2012, 09:59 AM
How in the world does this :

“She’s one of a kind. She’s like a guy playing with women. It’s just there’s so many things that she can do that I’ve not seen a lot of women (do).” (Muffett McGraw)

constitute picking on someone? What am I missing?

Greiner has a very deep voice and there have been whispers. Google "Caster Semenya" for some context.

I realize this is a can of worms and the default is that Greiner is 100 % female until and unless proven otherwise. And it's never been proven otherwise.

But she has been subjected to some pretty nasty taunting by opposing fans and Baylor is very sensitive on this issue. Likewise, I think we can give Coach McGraw the benefit of the doubt on intent. But she might have chosen her words more carefully.

gumbomoop
04-05-2012, 10:01 AM
In our politically correct world today you can't say anything that sounds sexist even if its true. In this case by saying Brittany plays like a man its hinting that men are physically stronger than women (something everyone knows but for some reason can't say in public). The world has gone nuts!

The issue is more delicate even than political correctness: it's the unfounded rumor that Griner is not a young woman, but a young man. Hence, either wittingly or unwittingly, McGraw's words came uncomfortably close to ugly rumor-mongering.

The link included in the front page story will lead to other links that go into the firestorm that McGraw's comments elicited.

rthomas
04-05-2012, 10:01 AM
I think that part of the front page reaction was apparently the Tweet-universe was going off on her at the same time the ND coach made her statement with stuff like, "She looks like a man." and "She sounds like a man." "She has a y chromosome." I don't really fault the ND coach. Griner does play like a man. She dunks. But I would prefer that people don't use the "man" term derogatorily like it sounds on Tweeter.

mdj
04-05-2012, 10:01 AM
How in the world does this :

“She’s one of a kind. She’s like a guy playing with women. It’s just there’s so many things that she can do that I’ve not seen a lot of women (do).” (Muffett McGraw)

constitute picking on someone? What am I missing?

this isn't the comment that's drawing criticism (at least not from DBR) there's been chatter basically criticising her lack of femininity don't think the ND coach was doing that but others have which is pretty sad.

Devil in the Blue Dress
04-05-2012, 10:02 AM
No, I'd say the issue involves suggestions or speculation that Brittney is a man.

Is this a similar situation to that with Caster Semenya, the terrific South African middle distance runner, who was subjecteed to gender testing, suspended from competition, and later re-instated?

One thing unfortunate here is that Brittney seems to face harsher treatment than many athletes who intentionally use performance enhancing drugs; there is no indication that Brittney has cheated or been deceptive.
Gender is the back story that's been in the background for some time. Such an issue seems to be in the news more frequently these days.... look at the recent matter involving a contestant in Donald Trump's beauty contest.

OldPhiKap
04-05-2012, 10:13 AM
I was unaware of the back-story pointed out by several above. That doesn't change my thoughts on what the ND coach stated but does explain some of the sensitivity on the issue.

Probably why I don't tweet. (Although I now follow Jason Evans because his mother told him to tweet and I don't want to disappoint Mrs. Evans).

wilko
04-05-2012, 10:14 AM
Gender is the back story that's been in the background for some time. Such an issue seems to be in the news more frequently these days.... look at the recent matter involving a contestant in Donald Trump's beauty contest.

Oh.. I haven't been paying attention to Baylor. I was oblivious to the implied (intentional or not) back-story.

So the net takeaway for me is is:
A female player cant be a superior player wo/ question unless she looks like Skylar D?
No pressure...

CDu
04-05-2012, 10:33 AM
I heard the quote live, and I think DBR is way off base here. I think the ND coach meant it as a compliment, saying that Griner is just so much physically superior to anyone else in the women's college game. She also added that she's seen some female guards with that kind of athleticism, but not anyone at that height with that kind of athleticism. It was a post-game press conference and I don't think she meant it as anything more than a compliment. And Griner, when asked a few minutes later if she took it as a compliment, said she said "obviously" and looked confused.

I realize that there is a lot of sensitivity with regard to earlier accusations that she may not be a female. But I don't think the ND coach was intending to suggest such a thing. It was a (perhaps poorly-worded) compliment in a live post-game press conference. If she had time to measure her words, she might have chosen a different set of words.

Seems like DBR is taking an unnecessary shot at McGraw here. I could be wrong and maybe McGraw meant to send a subtle dig. But it sure didn't sound like it during the press conference.

mdj
04-05-2012, 10:33 AM
Oh.. I haven't been paying attention to Baylor. I was oblivious to the implied (intentional or not) back-story.

So the net takeaway for me is is:
A female player cant be a superior player wo/ question unless she looks like Skylar D?
No pressure...

and she should probably have a voice like Marilyn Monroe

killerleft
04-05-2012, 10:34 AM
The implication seems to be (in its nicest terms), NOT that Ms. Griner is a man, but that her gene pool has given her an advantage over most women. Her voice and her physical abilities have given some a chance to describe what she has done as only natural for someone who is very close to being, but not quite, a man.

There is an ugliness in this type of attack that makes it hard to put into words just how good Ms. Griner plays basketball. There's a minefield that awaits any comparison between Britney Griner and, say, Ralph Sampson. But there is no woman who compares to Griner.

Conundrum is an apt term for the problems people have when they try to describe the wonderful play of Griner without offending either her or someone else. Muffett McGraw stepped into the minefield. She didn't mean to, but there she is.

mdj
04-05-2012, 10:36 AM
I heard the quote live, and I think DBR is way off base here. I think the ND coach meant it as a compliment, saying that Griner is just so much physically superior to anyone else in the women's college game. She also added that she's seen some female guards with that kind of athleticism, but not anyone at that height with that kind of athleticism. It was a post-game press conference and I don't think she meant it as anything more than a compliment. And Griner, when asked a few minutes later if she took it as a compliment, said she said "obviously" and looked confused.

I realize that there is a lot of sensitivity with regard to earlier accusations that she may not be a female. But I don't think the ND coach was intending to suggest such a thing. It was a (perhaps poorly-worded) compliment in a live post-game press conference. If she had time to measure her words, she might have chosen a different set of words.

Seems like DBR is taking an unnecessary shot at McGraw here. I could be wrong and maybe McGraw meant to send a subtle dig. But it sure didn't sound like it during the press conference.

DBR said the reaction to Mcgraw's comment was wierd not the comment itself. They explicitly agreed with the comment. It wasn't Mcgraw they had an issue with its the other stuff being said about Britney. Took a little shot at her name but cmon Muffett :)

wgl1228
04-05-2012, 11:00 AM
The issue is more delicate even than political correctness: it's the unfounded rumor that Griner is not a young woman, but a young man. Hence, either wittingly or unwittingly, McGraw's words came uncomfortably close to ugly rumor-mongering.

The link included in the front page story will lead to other links that go into the firestorm that McGraw's comments elicited.

I was unaware that a disgusting rumor like that was going around about her. I can see now why it was a big deal. I still think it sad though we cannot honestly talk about gender differences (physical strength, etc.) without getting scolded by the PC Police.

mgtr
04-05-2012, 11:16 AM
My first reaction when I first saw Ms. Griner play was that she moved like John Henson. Sort of gangly and all arms and legs. Given where Henson will likely go in the draft, that is sure no insult. The first indication that I had other than that was when she talked -- she had a voice more like a man than a woman. Then I began to wonder if she was really female (my reference was East German "women" athletes). But I concluded that, playing WBB at a big-time school, and being very successful, she must have been challenged on this before. I accept her as a woman (and I think most others do, too), and a talented one.
Interestingly, when I was in high school (long ago) we had a couple of tall girls (probably 5' 10" or better). They tended to walk around in poor posture, trying (I guess) to deemphasize their height. In those days it was considered bad form for a girl to be taller than a boy. The world has changed for the better.

rhcpflea99
04-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Had plenty discussions on Britney play, everyone say she plays like a "dude" but never once did I assume or think that she is actually a guy. This just people trying to make something out of nothing again...

Indoor66
04-05-2012, 02:15 PM
Had plenty discussions on Britney play, everyone say she plays like a "dude" but never once did I assume or think that she is actually a guy. This just people trying to make something out of nothing again...

Those sensitivity meters keep ratcheting off the scales.

Saratoga2
04-05-2012, 02:31 PM
I think that part of the front page reaction was apparently the Tweet-universe was going off on her at the same time the ND coach made her statement with stuff like, "She looks like a man." and "She sounds like a man." "She has a y chromosome." I don't really fault the ND coach. Griner does play like a man. She dunks. But I would prefer that people don't use the "man" term derogatorily like it sounds on Tweeter.

I noted in the pre-game introductions that when ND was introduced, they had a variety of school backgrounds, such as graduate studies, etc. In the case of Baylor, all five starters majored in Athletics and Human Performance, whatever that academic major consists of. It occurred to me that the academic standards at Baylor might give them a leg up in the recruiting arena.

FerryFor50
04-05-2012, 02:51 PM
I noted in the pre-game introductions that when ND was introduced, they had a variety of school backgrounds, such as graduate studies, etc. In the case of Baylor, all five starters majored in Athletics and Human Performance, whatever that academic major consists of. It occurred to me that the academic standards at Baylor might give them a leg up in the recruiting arena.

Are you trying to say they genetically engineer their female athletes? :p

lotusland
04-05-2012, 03:12 PM
I thought this thread was about the "Leave Britney alone" YouTube video from several years back.

DevilWearsPrada
04-05-2012, 03:32 PM
I thought this thread was about the "Leave Britney alone" YouTube video from several years back.

LOL! The "Leave Britney Alone" YouTube video, was about Britney Spears. It should also apply to Baylor's Women's 2012 National Championship team, and their MVP, Ms Britney Griner. She played a wonderful NCAA tournament. And with the return of Britney at Center and Odyssey Sims, at Point Guard; Baylor should be in good contention of a Final Four return next season!


Congratulations to the Baylor Lady Bears on a Perfect 40 - 0 season, and their National Championship!

I look forward to our Duke Women's Basketball team next season, with the return of our wonderful ladies, and the return of Richa and Amber (recovering from injuries) and Chloe!

FerryFor50
04-05-2012, 04:52 PM
I thought this thread was about the "Leave Britney alone" YouTube video from several years back.

2520

JStuart
04-05-2012, 04:53 PM
I noted in the pre-game introductions that when ND was introduced, they had a variety of school backgrounds, such as graduate studies, etc. In the case of Baylor, all five starters majored in Athletics and Human Performance, whatever that academic major consists of. It occurred to me that the academic standards at Baylor might give them a leg up in the recruiting arena.

Long ago, during the 60's, all players in ACC games were announced with their hometowns and majors. One year, when State came to Duke Indoor Stadium, their starting five were all listed as 'rural Recreation' majors, and the late, great Art Chandler, M.D. got a bit toungue-twisted, I believe. This, compared to the Duke players' history, economics, and poly sci majors, brought a few chuckles to the audience. Jim Sumner can probably give a better timeline, but I believe the next season, no one had their majors announced with the starting lineups. Wonder if the current unc team would have had some Swahili majors interspersed?
Happy Easter to all,
JStuart

JG Nothing
04-05-2012, 05:09 PM
Wonder if the current unc team would have had some Swahili majors interspersed?

What is wrong with a major in Swahili? Is it any less legitimate than a major in French or German?

Duvall
04-05-2012, 05:28 PM
Those sensitivity meters keep ratcheting off the scales.

How sensitive do you have to be to get annoyed by unsupported accusations that the best player in the sport is defrauding the game?

-jk
04-05-2012, 06:12 PM
What is wrong with a major in Swahili? Is it any less legitimate than a major in French or German?

I believe the unc football scandal featured a paper on Swahili that was plagiarized in large part. I seem to recall the professor - the former chair of the Dept of African Studies - resigned his chairmanship over it.

There were many discussions here when the ncsu folks found the plagiarism after the unc judicial board hadn't.

-jk

cspan37421
04-05-2012, 06:19 PM
There were many discussions here when the ncsu folks found the plagiarism after the unc judicial board hadn't.

-jk

In the filing cabinet of my mind I'm gathering items to explain why NCSU is so well-regarded here (or well-wished) compared to other ACC schools (after Duke of course). This is a fine specimen to add to my collection - thanks! I had forgotten the circumstances of the discovery.

-jk
04-05-2012, 07:44 PM
In the filing cabinet of my mind I'm gathering items to explain why NCSU is so well-regarded here (or well-wished) compared to other ACC schools (after Duke of course). This is a fine specimen to add to my collection - thanks! I had forgotten the circumstances of the discovery.

I'm not sure how you're reading that into my post - I was using it to point out the incompetence of the unc judi board.

-jk

Devil in the Blue Dress
04-05-2012, 07:47 PM
I believe the unc football scandal featured a paper on Swahili that was plagiarized in large part. I seem to recall the professor - the former chair of the Dept of African Studies - resigned his chairmanship over it.

There were many discussions here when the ncsu folks found the plagiarism after the unc judicial board hadn't.

-jk

Do remember that the professor involved in that matter at UNC was a Duke graduate.

-jk
04-05-2012, 07:59 PM
Do remember that the professor involved in that matter at UNC was a Duke graduate.

Yes, Duke Law, '90. I guess he lost his way when he went over to the Light Shade.

-jk

cspan37421
04-05-2012, 09:41 PM
I'm not sure how you're reading that into my post - I was using it to point out the incompetence of the unc judi board.

-jk

Actually I'm with you on that. I've generally found the amity toward NCSU expressed on the home page with articles wishing them well, how important it is for them to be great again, and on and on. I've always found it rather curious, as I would think we have a lot more in common with a school like Wake Forest than NCSU.

Nevertheless, you post reminded me of both NCSU's intrepid sleuthing and the (intentional?) incompetence of UNC's judicial board.

Sorry for the confusion/mash-up.

brevity
04-05-2013, 03:38 AM
I'm reviving this old thread in light of the news bits this week about Mark Cuban expressing interest (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/9127664/mark-cuban-give-brittney-griner-opportunity-dallas-mavericks) in either drafting Brittney Griner in the 2nd round or (more likely) inviting her to help represent the Dallas Mavericks in the NBA Summer League. (I attended a few games in last year's Summer League. It was low-key. Griner would make the 2013 Summer League the opposite of that.)

Among the immediate responses were Geno Auriemma (http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/tournament/2013/story/_/id/9130719/geno-auriemma-pans-mark-cuban-suggestion-drafting-brittney-griner) (against it) and Nancy Lieberman (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/9131784/nancy-lieberman-says-there-no-downside-brittney-griner-trying-make-dallas-mavericks) (for it).

I wasn't going to post anything about this, but then Shane Battier (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9134616/shane-battier-miami-heat-says-nba-female-player-our-lifetime) weighed in.


Miami Heat forward Shane Battier, who has played several pickup basketball games with women over the years, predicts that the NBA is not far away from having its first female player.

"There's no doubt that in our lifetime, there will be a woman NBA player," Battier told ESPN.com after Thursday's Heat practice at AmericanAirlines Arena.

He did not go so far as to sign an Executive Order to that effect, mostly because he is not President yet.

cspan37421
04-05-2013, 09:07 AM
I'm reviving this old thread in light of the news bits this week about Mark Cuban expressing interest (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/9127664/mark-cuban-give-brittney-griner-opportunity-dallas-mavericks) in either drafting Brittney Griner in the 2nd round or (more likely) inviting her to help represent the Dallas Mavericks in the NBA Summer League.


It is difficult to imagine her successfully battling for position as a center or PF in the NBA, because she is listed as 6'8" yet under 210 lbs. I see no harm in making an extra spot for her in the summer league to see how she does (or more accurately, show the viewing public was she can do ... I'm sure she could show what she can do in a scrimmage). If she has an outside shot (I don't follow that closely so I don't know), then maybe she could play on the perimeter as a SG or SF and shoot over some guys. But if there's no a priori reason to suspect she could succeed, and this is just a gimmick to get attention (shocking to consider, I know), I'm really not crazy about it b/c it could take away a spot from someone who could truly compete for a spot. That's why I say "making an extra spot" in the summer league.

luburch
04-05-2013, 09:32 AM
I would say she has absolutely no shot to play in the NBA. She's not quick enough, strong enough, it skilled enough.

FerryFor50
04-05-2013, 09:39 AM
I would say she has absolutely no shot to play in the NBA. She's not quick enough, strong enough, it skilled enough.

Yep. Her dominance was due to her size in the women's game. Imagine if Shaq had been 4 inches shorter and weighed 150 lbs less. Would he have been as dominant? Heck no.

She's tall and strong for a woman, but doesn't jump very well and doesn't have a real good shooting touch. Most of her points came from inside on layins and putbacks from what I saw of her (granted I didn't watch every game).

Cameron
04-05-2013, 09:48 AM
Shane Battier, as much as I love him, is talking complete nonsense. And Mark Cuban is a walking publicity stunt.

Britney Griner has about as much chance of playing in the NBA as a bicycle does winning the Daytona 500.

DukeGirl4ever
04-05-2013, 11:25 AM
I would say she has absolutely no shot to play in the NBA. She's not quick enough, strong enough, or skilled enough.

The first two I agree with whole-heartedly. The last one...not so much. Sure she had about 4 inches on most of her opponents, but you don't score 23 ppg without having skill. And that's not to mention the double and triple teams she faced night in and night out.

Louisville seemed like one of the few teams to figure her out.

That being said, I would be SHOCKED if this actually pans out. Gotta love Mark Cuban - always finding a way to stir the pot.

InSpades
04-05-2013, 11:36 AM
I think a woman in the NBA "in our lifetime" (as Shane said) is still a stretch but I think he's right that if a woman makes it that it will be a guard. The one thing women can do just as good as men on a basketball court is shoot the ball. Griner dominates women's b-ball because she is bigger and more athletic, but she'd lose that edge immediately playing against men. A woman who can really shoot the ball would still maintain that edge. Obviously it would be significantly more difficult to get off those shots but... the talent would at least translate.

Who was the best free throw shooter in college basketball this year? If you guessed a male then you guessed wrong :).

TruBlu
04-05-2013, 11:58 AM
Britney Griner has about as much chance of playing in the NBA as a bicycle does winning the Daytona 500.

There have been lots of advances in doping.

oldnavy
04-05-2013, 04:06 PM
I think a woman in the NBA "in our lifetime" (as Shane said) is still a stretch but I think he's right that if a woman makes it that it will be a guard. The one thing women can do just as good as men on a basketball court is shoot the ball. Griner dominates women's b-ball because she is bigger and more athletic, but she'd lose that edge immediately playing against men. A woman who can really shoot the ball would still maintain that edge. Obviously it would be significantly more difficult to get off those shots but... the talent would at least translate.

Who was the best free throw shooter in college basketball this year? If you guessed a male then you guessed wrong :).

It's not even the same ball....

Turtleboy
04-05-2013, 04:14 PM
Let's take Lance Thomas, a player close to Griner in size, who we all know very well, and put him on Baylor's team instead of Griner. Would anyone have come within 50 points of them? And it has taken him years of hard work to get a sniff of the NBA.

oldnavy
04-05-2013, 04:25 PM
Let's take Lance Thomas, a player close to Griner in size, who we all know very well, and put him on Baylor's team instead of Griner. Would anyone have come within 50 points of them? And it has taken him years of hard work to get a sniff of the NBA.

Except Lance is what, 60 pounds heavier than Griner? Funny they don't list weight on the Baylor roster.... :confused:

luburch
04-05-2013, 04:28 PM
I think a woman in the NBA "in our lifetime" (as Shane said) is still a stretch but I think he's right that if a woman makes it that it will be a guard. The one thing women can do just as good as men on a basketball court is shoot the ball. Griner dominates women's b-ball because she is bigger and more athletic, but she'd lose that edge immediately playing against men. A woman who can really shoot the ball would still maintain that edge. Obviously it would be significantly more difficult to get off those shots but... the talent would at least translate.

Who was the best free throw shooter in college basketball this year? If you guessed a male then you guessed wrong :).

I disagree with this. Women tend to have set shots and take longer to shoot then men. They also use a lighter ball and shoot from closer in.

Turtleboy
04-05-2013, 04:41 PM
Except Lance is what, 60 pounds heavier than Griner? Funny they don't list weight on the Baylor roster.... :confused:He was about 220 when he played at Duke. 210 or so when he began. Griner has to be 200 or so. Close enough for a decent comparison, considering that players who are less skilled and/or less dedicated than Lance don't make the league at all.

My overall point is that if she were in fact an NBA level talent she would have been a totally overwhelming force in college basketball, while what she really is is the first really tall female player with pretty good skills and average athleticism, and she dominated accordingly.

Edit : USA Basketball lists her at 208 lbs. (http://www.usabasketball.com/bios/griner_brittney.html)

InSpades
04-05-2013, 04:48 PM
I disagree with this. Women tend to have set shots and take longer to shoot then men. They also use a lighter ball and shoot from closer in.

The women's free throw line is closer than the men's free throw line? The difference in weight is very small. The difference in diameter is about 1/3rd of an inch.

The best women's FT shooter this year hit 95.5% of her shots (169 out of 177, so it wasn't a small sample or anything). Do you really think she'd be much worse with a men's ball?

moonpie23
04-05-2013, 04:54 PM
my wife certainly does NOT like hearing me say that she (brittney) could never play in the nba and that the guys are bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled, can jump higher and defend better. she doesn't like that......


she REALLY doesn't like it when i say you could take any of the top high school boys' team and beat baylor's women's team 100 out of 100 games.....that's when she says the conversation isn't helping.....

don't shoot the messenger...

luburch
04-05-2013, 04:57 PM
The women's free throw line is closer than the men's free throw line? The difference in weight is very small. The difference in diameter is about 1/3rd of an inch.

The best women's FT shooter this year hit 95.5% of her shots (169 out of 177, so it wasn't a small sample or anything). Do you really think she'd be much worse with a men's ball?

The free throw line is the same, but I've watched a 65 year old man hit 25 straight free throws. Does that mean he could play in the NBA too? A free throw, as you well know, is an uncontested shot. The majority of a woman's shots would not be uncontested.

Also, I would like for you to go shoot a women's ball for an hour and then switch to a men's ball and tell me there's not a significant difference.

oldnavy
04-05-2013, 05:08 PM
The women's free throw line is closer than the men's free throw line? The difference in weight is very small. The difference in diameter is about 1/3rd of an inch.

The best women's FT shooter this year hit 95.5% of her shots (169 out of 177, so it wasn't a small sample or anything). Do you really think she'd be much worse with a men's ball?

The women's ball is 28.5 inches, men's 29.5. Not sure how a woman would do shooting FT's with a man's ball, but the point is mute unless the NBA implements a designated FT shooter.

Take it to the bank, NO WOMAN CAN PLAY IN THE NBA... THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF DIV I MEN NEVER MAKE IT.

It is a pipe dream.

InSpades
04-05-2013, 05:30 PM
The free throw line is the same, but I've watched a 65 year old man hit 25 straight free throws. Does that mean he could play in the NBA too? A free throw, as you well know, is an uncontested shot. The majority of a woman's shots would not be uncontested.

Also, I would like for you to go shoot a women's ball for an hour and then switch to a men's ball and tell me there's not a significant difference.

I never said a 65 year old man could play in the NBA (or a woman for that matter). I merely said that women can shoot about as good as men (some obviously, not all). Are you arguing this or not?

There was a men's college game where they started playing the game w/ a women's ball. Apparently the difference isn't as much as you think or someone surely would have noticed sooner (they got to 7 minutes).

Shane apparently thinks a woman will play in the NBA, and I guess anything is possible. I wouldn't bet on it.

Do you think Alana made them use a women's ball when she played pickup with the guys?

The biggest difference between playing w/ a men's or women's ball is probably that you are used to one more than the other. The women's ball is obviously easier to shoot, but I doubt the difference is that huge. If you can shoot 95% w/ a woman's ball I bet you can get pretty close to that with a men's ball.

Tappan Zee Devil
04-05-2013, 05:35 PM
He was about 220 when he played at Duke. 210 or so when he began. Griner has to be 200 or so. Close enough for a decent comparison, considering that players who are less skilled and/or less dedicated than Lance don't make the league at all.

My overall point is that if she were in fact an NBA level talent she would have been a totally overwhelming force in college basketball, while what she really is is the first really tall female player with pretty good skills and average athleticism, and she dominated accordingly.

Edit : USA Basketball lists her at 208 lbs. (http://www.usabasketball.com/bios/griner_brittney.html)

Hmm - I saw a segment on Griner where they said she was 185 lbs. Maybe flattering her.

oldnavy
04-05-2013, 06:02 PM
I never said a 65 year old man could play in the NBA (or a woman for that matter). I merely said that women can shoot about as good as men (some obviously, not all). Are you arguing this or not?

There was a men's college game where they started playing the game w/ a women's ball. Apparently the difference isn't as much as you think or someone surely would have noticed sooner (they got to 7 minutes).

Shane apparently thinks a woman will play in the NBA, and I guess anything is possible. I wouldn't bet on it.

Do you think Alana made them use a women's ball when she played pickup with the guys?

The biggest difference between playing w/ a men's or women's ball is probably that you are used to one more than the other. The women's ball is obviously easier to shoot, but I doubt the difference is that huge. If you can shoot 95% w/ a woman's ball I bet you can get pretty close to that with a men's ball.

1st - This is difficult to believe (not saying it isn't true), but the difference is significant between the men's and women's basketball... I have grabbed the wrong ball in the gym and noticed immediately.

2nd - With practice I am sure you are right.

I am sure that there are women who are better ball handlers than most men, better FT shooters than the average man, know the game better, but the issue is a woman playing (all aspects of the game) in the NBA. It is not going to happen unless it is a publicity stunt, like the midget Chicago White Socs baseball player who went to bat back in the 30's or 40's.

brevity
04-05-2013, 06:49 PM
There have been quite a few comments since I revived this thread, and some of you are making the same mistake as the rest of the sports world. You're thinking short-term and asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is based on Shane's statement: "Will a woman ever play in the NBA?"

For the record, I agree with those of you who don't think Brittney Griner can make the jump to the NBA. Her height and physique give her a unique skill set in the women's game, which will serve her well in the WNBA. She'll be a star, and this talk about the NBA helps that, to the extent that it does not disrupt her WNBA career. That said, her skill set does not translate to the men's game. People are focusing on her because of her height, but she's not a very good example of a player with crossover potential.

I don't know if we've seen a good example in the women's game just yet, but like Shane, I think she exists or will exist. Put yourself in the place of some kind of NBA scout who is interested in making this gender crossover happen. What you're looking for, essentially, is the girls' version of Anthony Davis. Someone who develops her fundamentals as a guard and then sprouts in height as a late bloomer until she's a forward. She's about 6-foot-3, give or take an inch, and plays in girls' high school and women's college programs tall and talented enough to let her stay in the backcourt, or at least the perimeter. This kind of coddling makes her used to playing with other stars, and so she ends up doing a lot of grunt work to let them shine. She is a glue girl. For her pro career, she would do fine in the WNBA, if she wanted. But she could also pursue the NBA if she were willing to take the risk. Given the circumstances, and the salary disparity between leagues, I think she would.

Undrafted, she starts in the NBA summer league, impresses a few basketball people and a ton of corporate people, and gets a roster spot on a team with a coach and personnel mostly willing to keep an open mind. This garners her a lot of media attention, and she will say the right things when needed. The season starts, with her deep on the bench, but she makes the most of limited (garbage) minutes. Maybe she gets more playing time, maybe not. But she acquits herself well, gets along with her teammates, and has a serviceable rookie season. The team wins a few more games, which they can attribute to her directly (her play adds to their depth) or indirectly (her presence gives them increased media attention and fan support). No reason why she can't stick around.

Does she dominate? Probably not. Does she earn a salary and survive in the league? Absolutely. As usual, Shane is operating on a different mental level than the rest of us. We just have to try and catch up.

InSpades
04-05-2013, 08:49 PM
1st - This is difficult to believe (not saying it isn't true), but the difference is significant between the men's and women's basketball... I have grabbed the wrong ball in the gym and noticed immediately.

2nd - With practice I am sure you are right.

I am sure that there are women who are better ball handlers than most men, better FT shooters than the average man, know the game better, but the issue is a woman playing (all aspects of the game) in the NBA. It is not going to happen unless it is a publicity stunt, like the midget Chicago White Socs baseball player who went to bat back in the 30's or 40's.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Illinois-and-Oakland-played-seven-minutes-using-?urn=ncaab-293522

I think it probably won't even happen, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible. Not that long ago people thought women couldn't run a marathon and now the women's marathon is only 12 minutes off the men's record. There's women that can shoot well enough to play in the NBA. There's women that are fast enough to play in the NBA. There's women that are strong enough to play in the NBA (they may be on something). Maybe one day a woman will have a combination of all these things. Odds are against it but it's possible.

subzero02
04-05-2013, 10:12 PM
If a woman plays in the NBA she'll likely be a point guard with incredible shooting and passing skills... There's also a good chance that she'll average a triple double in college(or close to it)

ricks68
04-06-2013, 12:34 AM
IMHO, the best candidate for a mythical NBA career would have been Cynthia Cooper.

ricks

Double DD
04-06-2013, 03:10 AM
I think it probably won't even happen, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible. Not that long ago people thought women couldn't run a marathon and now the women's marathon is only 12 minutes off the men's record.

The fastest marathon time by a woman in the world last year wouldn't even have ranked in the top 1000 for men.


There's women that can shoot well enough to play in the NBA. There's women that are fast enough to play in the NBA. There's women that are strong enough to play in the NBA (they may be on something). Maybe one day a woman will have a combination of all these things. Odds are against it but it's possible.

There might be women who can shoot free throws as well as or better than NBA players but I'm not buying that there are women who can shoot from the floor at a NBA level. Or that there are women as fast and strong as NBA players. Elite female sprinters tend to put up times equivalent to the fastest 14 year old boys. Give one of them a basketball and they'd still be slower than a lot of college guards, let alone those in the NBA.

Papa John
04-06-2013, 07:16 AM
There have been quite a few comments since I revived this thread, and some of you are making the same mistake as the rest of the sports world. You're thinking short-term and asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is based on Shane's statement: "Will a woman ever play in the NBA?"

For the record, I agree with those of you who don't think Brittney Griner can make the jump to the NBA. Her height and physique give her a unique skill set in the women's game, which will serve her well in the WNBA. She'll be a star, and this talk about the NBA helps that, to the extent that it does not disrupt her WNBA career. That said, her skill set does not translate to the men's game. People are focusing on her because of her height, but she's not a very good example of a player with crossover potential.

I don't know if we've seen a good example in the women's game just yet, but like Shane, I think she exists or will exist. Put yourself in the place of some kind of NBA scout who is interested in making this gender crossover happen. What you're looking for, essentially, is the girls' version of Anthony Davis. Someone who develops her fundamentals as a guard and then sprouts in height as a late bloomer until she's a forward. She's about 6-foot-3, give or take an inch, and plays in girls' high school and women's college programs tall and talented enough to let her stay in the backcourt, or at least the perimeter. This kind of coddling makes her used to playing with other stars, and so she ends up doing a lot of grunt work to let them shine. She is a glue girl. For her pro career, she would do fine in the WNBA, if she wanted. But she could also pursue the NBA if she were willing to take the risk. Given the circumstances, and the salary disparity between leagues, I think she would.

Undrafted, she starts in the NBA summer league, impresses a few basketball people and a ton of corporate people, and gets a roster spot on a team with a coach and personnel mostly willing to keep an open mind. This garners her a lot of media attention, and she will say the right things when needed. The season starts, with her deep on the bench, but she makes the most of limited (garbage) minutes. Maybe she gets more playing time, maybe not. But she acquits herself well, gets along with her teammates, and has a serviceable rookie season. The team wins a few more games, which they can attribute to her directly (her play adds to their depth) or indirectly (her presence gives them increased media attention and fan support). No reason why she can't stick around.

Does she dominate? Probably not. Does she earn a salary and survive in the league? Absolutely. As usual, Shane is operating on a different mental level than the rest of us. We just have to try and catch up.

And agree with Double DD... The reality is that men's and women's bodies are quite simply very different with respect to frame, muscle mass (which is dependent on frame), and body chemistry (which impacts the first two tremendously during adolescent development). This is ultimately why we have men's and women's sports in the first place, so the athletes are competing against a like pool of athletes.

This example of the mythical female guard in a female forward's body being a potential crossover overlooks a number of realities. First, as many have pointed out, the ball and lines on the floor are different in the women's game, so the basis for comparison is flawed from the outset. You have no idea how this player's numbers would be marginally impacted with a larger ball and being forced to shoot from further out until said player actually begins to play under those circumstances, but my logical guess would be that there would be a negative impact. Add to this that said player will have to face a set of defenders on a daily basis who are bigger, faster, and far more athletic, on average, than the defenders she faced in the women's game... This, in my opinion, would clearly have the biggest impact on those shooting percentage numbers.

So your women's-guard-in-the-body-of-a-forward crossover candidate, when she crosses over, (1) likely isn't going to be particularly big at the guard position in the NBA, (2) is going to be going up against far stronger, faster, more athletic (and physical) defenders on a regular basis, and (3) is going to have to do all of this with a 3-point line that is further out. Oh yeah, and with respect to the free-throw shooting argument--ya gotta get to the line before you can shoot free throws...

I agree with others here who have essentially stated that Griner doesn't have a snowball's chance in the Sahara of competing in the NBA, and yet she is a very unique, once-in-a-lifetime type talent--she's simply a phenomenal athlete within her cohort, like nothing we've ever seen before in the women's game... Yet if you look at this empirically, she's simply not equipped to compete against the top athletes at her position in the men's game.

subzero02
04-06-2013, 07:40 AM
The fastest marathon time by a woman in the world last year wouldn't even have ranked in the top 1000 for men.



There might be women who can shoot free throws as well as or better than NBA players but I'm not buying that there are women who can shoot from the floor at a NBA level. Or that there are women as fast and strong as NBA players. Elite female sprinters tend to put up times equivalent to the fastest 14 year old boys. Give one of them a basketball and they'd still be slower than a lot of college guards, let alone those in the NBA.

I would have to think that an elite female 100 meter sprinter would be competitive with many NBA point guards from a raw speed perspective... I don't expect to see a woman compete in the NBA in my lifetime but it is an outside possibility. A 6'3" female point guard with world class speed, great outside shot and an extremely high bball IQ is the only type of player I can imagine making it into the association though.

oldnavy
04-06-2013, 09:57 AM
I would have to think that an elite female 100 meter sprinter would be competitive with many NBA point guards from a raw speed perspective... I don't expect to see a woman compete in the NBA in my lifetime but it is an outside possibility. A 6'3" female point guard with world class speed, great outside shot and an extremely high bball IQ is the only type of player I can imagine making it into the association though.

IF it ever were to happen, I think you have the formula. But, I don't think it will, because as time goes on, the men are getting bigger and stronger and faster as well. I just don't think that Basketball is a sport where women can compete with men on equal footing, far too much contact and physicality involved IMO.

Brian913
04-06-2013, 10:43 AM
The East Germans trained their female athletes full time in special "schools" from childhood. They gave the women massive amounts of steroids - so much that their voices changed and they grew facial hair. They dominated women's track and field, and swimming.

Despite all of that work, the best women's times fell far, far short of the men's times in every event.

Men and women are mechanically different. No amount of training or skill will make up that difference.

oldnavy
04-06-2013, 10:48 AM
The East Germans trained their female athletes full time in special "schools" from childhood. They gave the women massive amounts of steroids - so much that their voices changed and they grew facial hair. They dominated women's track and field, and swimming.

Despite all of that work, the best women's times fell far, far short of the men's times in every event.

Men and women are mechanically different. No amount of training or skill will make up that difference.

Thank the Lord!! This is a wonderful thing.

Jarhead
04-06-2013, 11:37 AM
The biggest difference between playing w/ a men's or women's ball is probably that you are used to one more than the other. The women's ball is obviously easier to shoot, but I doubt the difference is that huge. If you can shoot 95% w/ a woman's ball I bet you can get pretty close to that with a men's ball.

Shooting from the line with the the 1" larger men's ball will bring her 95% down to under 75%. That's my bet. If we could get a good sample of her shots it could be determined what percentage of her made shots do make contact with the rim. Give her the big ball and, shooting with the same accuracy, most of those shots that made rim contact will turn into rebounds.

sagegrouse
04-06-2013, 11:53 AM
This is totally nutty, I guess, but Jim Bouton, former fireball pitcher turned knuckleballer turned actor (The Long Goodbye) and author of the hilariously funny Ball Four (circa 1970), has suggested that women could pitch in MLB as knuckleballers. There is a premium on precision and speed on the knuckleball is a negative.

sagegrouse

oldnavy
04-06-2013, 11:59 AM
This is totally nutty, I guess, but Jim Bouton, former fireball pitcher turned knuckleballer turned actor (The Long Goodbye) and author of the hilariously funny Ball Four (circa 1970), has suggested that women could pitch in MLB as knuckleballers. There is a premium on precision and speed on the knuckleball is a negative.

sagegrouse

That I could see, especially with the DH.

subzero02
04-06-2013, 01:09 PM
Shooting from the line with the the 1" larger men's ball will bring her 95% down to under 75%. That's my bet. If we could get a good sample of her shots it could be determined what percentage of her made shots do make contact with the rim. Give her the big ball and, shooting with the same accuracy, most of those shots that made rim contact will turn into rebounds.

I seriously doubt it would go down that much

awhom111
04-06-2013, 02:12 PM
Shooting from the line with the the 1" larger men's ball will bring her 95% down to under 75%. That's my bet. If we could get a good sample of her shots it could be determined what percentage of her made shots do make contact with the rim. Give her the big ball and, shooting with the same accuracy, most of those shots that made rim contact will turn into rebounds.

http://www.johk.pl/files/114podmenik.pdf

Some people act like women have always used the smaller ball. Internationally, they only adopted it in 2004. The link is a study from Slovenia studying shooting percentages from the 2001-2007 Eurobasket Women competitions. I believe the ABL used the size 7 ball during its couple of season of existence.

There are plenty of reasons why even the best female player will not be able to compete directly against the top male players. The ball size is probably pretty low on the list of reasons why.

devildeac
04-06-2013, 04:15 PM
Shane Battier, as much as I love him, is talking complete nonsense. And Mark Cuban is a walking publicity stunt.

Britney Griner has about as much chance of playing in the NBA as a bicycle does winning the Daytona 500.


There have been lots of advances in doping.

The Germans might have it figured out:

http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/11/segway-2-0-german-bicycle-on-steriods-comes-to-the-us/


Not that it could win the Daytona 500, but...

J.Blink
04-07-2013, 05:28 AM
I don't see the front page story, so I'm not sure what exactly was said. I did, however, find what Brittney is quoted as saying in this article pretty interesting:

http://www.indystar.com/viewart/20130406/SPORTS/304060044/Brittney-Griner-open-NBA-tryout-after-Mark-Cuban-s-offer


Griner is well aware of the challenges of competing against NBA players.

“They are strong, definitely bigger than me,” she said. “I would have to as you say, man-up. But I’ve never backed down from a challenge and I never will. If I get an elbow to the chest from one of those big guys, hey, at least I can say I was there and tried it.”



If she herself uses such language--and is clearly not offended--what's the big deal?

Indoor66
04-07-2013, 07:53 AM
I don't see the front page story, so I'm not sure what exactly was said. I did, however, find what Brittney is quoted as saying in this article pretty interesting:

http://www.indystar.com/viewart/20130406/SPORTS/304060044/Brittney-Griner-open-NBA-tryout-after-Mark-Cuban-s-offer



If she herself uses such language--and is clearly not offended--what's the big deal?

The PC Police are ALWAYS on the prowl. Some, it seems, must always be offended by something. Maybe it makes them feel alive.

Turtleboy
04-07-2013, 11:31 AM
Hmm - I saw a segment on Griner where they said she was 185 lbs. Maybe flattering her.It would be difficult to find an exact cognate; however, I'll try to clarify my point, which is really strengthened if she is lighter.

A) Griner was hands down the best F/C in women's ball.

B) Lance Thomas, about the same size, is a far superior player, who would dominate the women's game far far more than Griner did.

C) It has taken Lance years of hard work to sniff the NBA.

Ergo,

Griner has no shot to make a roster in any way other than as a novelty.

Lid
04-08-2013, 09:48 AM
First, as many have pointed out, the ball and lines on the floor are different in the women's game, so the basis for comparison is flawed from the outset.

FYI, the lines are not different. The three-point lines were until a season or two ago, but not now.

The ball is different, but it's not like these women don't play pickup with men all the time. I don't think they're using a women's ball then, so it's not like their fingers will fall off at the sheer weight or size of it. Will it affect their in-game percentages? I would imagine so overall, but a person whose percentages drop off signficantly because of the larger ball is not the woman we're hypothetically discussing here.

I agree with brevity's post upthread. If this were to happen, I think it would be in the sort of scenario he envisions, not necessarily a star college player. I think you have to broaden your viewpoint some to imagine a plausible situation, and I'm not shocked to hear that Shane can do that.

Papa John
04-08-2013, 10:25 AM
FYI, the lines are not different. The three-point lines were until a season or two ago, but not now.

Not being an avid follower of women's basketball, I had not tracked this rule change. I stand corrected on this point...


The ball is different, but it's not like these women don't play pickup with men all the time. I don't think they're using a women's ball then, so it's not like their fingers will fall off at the sheer weight or size of it. Will it affect their in-game percentages? I would imagine so overall, but a person whose percentages drop off signficantly because of the larger ball is not the woman we're hypothetically discussing here.

Snarkiness aside, you've chosen to address the least important argument. The underlying, undeniable fact that makes this whole proposition silly is simple, biological reality. The male and female bodies are fundamentally different, and have evolved that way over the course of around a million years.

Lid
04-08-2013, 10:36 AM
Snarkiness aside, you've chosen to address the least important argument. The underlying, undeniable fact that makes this whole proposition silly is simple, biological reality. The male and female bodies are fundamentally different, and have evolved that way over the course of around a million years.

I also think the ball is relatively unimportant, but it sure did garner a lot of attention over the preceding pages. I don't think it's an irrelevant point, but I agree with you that it's not the major inhibitor. (As an aside, may I ask why you've only chosen to call out me for discussing it? You did mention it in your post, and many other posters have as well.)

I'm wondering if you read my final paragraph or not, where I addressed what you and I seem on agree on as being the most important point. If this were to happen, it would likely not happen because the woman in question was especially tall or physically similar to the largest men in the NBA, it would be because she was a glue player in some as-yet-undefined way. I thought brevity made excellent points along those lines. Do I think it's likely to happen (in a non-gimmicky way)? No. If it does happen, my opinion is that it will be under a different paradigm that what's being discussed here. Hence my assertion that I'm not surprised Shane has the imagination for that.

Papa John
04-08-2013, 11:09 AM
(As an aside, may I ask why you've only chosen to call out me for discussing it?

You quoted my post in making a snarky observation about the ball size, and I simply noted that ball size [and my incorrect observation regarding the different location of lines on the court between the men's and women's game] was the least important argument here...


I'm wondering if you read my final paragraph or not, where I addressed what you and I seem on agree on as being the most important point. If this were to happen, it would likely not happen because the woman in question was especially tall or physically similar to the largest men in the NBA, it would be because she was a glue player in some as-yet-undefined way. I thought brevity made excellent points along those lines. Do I think it's likely to happen (in a non-gimmicky way)? No. If it does happen, my opinion is that it will be under a different paradigm that what's being discussed here. Hence my assertion that I'm not surprised Shane has the imagination for that.

I did read your argument, and I just fundamentally disagree with you and brevity. I don't believe this is a matter of imaginative thinking. It's a matter of basic biological reality, as others have [in my opinion] correctly stated. Bottom line, we're talking about one of the most uniquely talented and athletic (in fact, arguably the most uniquely talented and athletic) women's basketball players ever in the women's game—a Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain/Lew Alcindor-type of truly transcendental talent... Yet despite this fact, I really find it hard to believe that any NBA player personnel decision-maker in their right mind [with the exception of Mark "I-never-met-a-PR-opportunity-I-didn't-like" Cuban] would even consider giving Griner a serious look...

Reisen
04-08-2013, 12:33 PM
There have been quite a few comments since I revived this thread, and some of you are making the same mistake as the rest of the sports world. You're thinking short-term and asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is based on Shane's statement: "Will a woman ever play in the NBA?"

For the record, I agree with those of you who don't think Brittney Griner can make the jump to the NBA. Her height and physique give her a unique skill set in the women's game, which will serve her well in the WNBA. She'll be a star, and this talk about the NBA helps that, to the extent that it does not disrupt her WNBA career. That said, her skill set does not translate to the men's game. People are focusing on her because of her height, but she's not a very good example of a player with crossover potential.

I don't know if we've seen a good example in the women's game just yet, but like Shane, I think she exists or will exist. Put yourself in the place of some kind of NBA scout who is interested in making this gender crossover happen. What you're looking for, essentially, is the girls' version of Anthony Davis. Someone who develops her fundamentals as a guard and then sprouts in height as a late bloomer until she's a forward. She's about 6-foot-3, give or take an inch, and plays in girls' high school and women's college programs tall and talented enough to let her stay in the backcourt, or at least the perimeter. This kind of coddling makes her used to playing with other stars, and so she ends up doing a lot of grunt work to let them shine. She is a glue girl. For her pro career, she would do fine in the WNBA, if she wanted. But she could also pursue the NBA if she were willing to take the risk. Given the circumstances, and the salary disparity between leagues, I think she would.

Undrafted, she starts in the NBA summer league, impresses a few basketball people and a ton of corporate people, and gets a roster spot on a team with a coach and personnel mostly willing to keep an open mind. This garners her a lot of media attention, and she will say the right things when needed. The season starts, with her deep on the bench, but she makes the most of limited (garbage) minutes. Maybe she gets more playing time, maybe not. But she acquits herself well, gets along with her teammates, and has a serviceable rookie season. The team wins a few more games, which they can attribute to her directly (her play adds to their depth) or indirectly (her presence gives them increased media attention and fan support). No reason why she can't stick around.

Does she dominate? Probably not. Does she earn a salary and survive in the league? Absolutely. As usual, Shane is operating on a different mental level than the rest of us. We just have to try and catch up.

While this is a well thought-out post, I agree with others, that there is ZERO chance of this happening, with Griner, or anyone else, in the foreseeable future.

We'll see women break through in a whole host of sports before this, including golf (think Michelle Wie crossed with Annika Sorenstam), soccer / hockey (but only as a goalie), football (kicker, maybe something like longsnapper), baseball (knuckleballer), and maybe even something like MMA (submission artist in a light weight class).

Put a different way, think of sports and positions where absolute elite-level male athletes (in either strength, quickness, or size) dominate: most positions in the NFL, most positions in the NBA, most positions in soccer. Then think of the opposite; guys like John Daly in golf, Wiry pitchers in MLB, a few kickers in the NFL. If women have a chance, it's where the latter group has been successful.

MMA is obviously in the former (rather than the latter), but part of me thinks the combination of weight classes and the focus on technique overcoming brute strength in Brazilian Jujitsu might create an opportunity.

But, as so many in the media have said, no way do we see a woman playing in the NBA as anything more than a publicity stunt anytime soon.

gus
04-08-2013, 12:49 PM
Snarkiness aside, you've chosen to address the least important argument. The underlying, undeniable fact that makes this whole proposition silly is simple, biological reality. The male and female bodies are fundamentally different, and have evolved that way over the course of around a million years.

I don't think it's likely we'll see a "non-publicity stunt" female player in the NBA any time soon, but I do think it's possible.

I think you're making the same mistake that is often made when comparing individuals to populations. Men, on average, are stronger and faster than women, on average. This does not preclude the possibility that an individual woman can be strong enough or fast enough to make the NBA, particularly if she brings some other significant skill or value. Men in the pros are already well above average in speed and strength, so this woman would need to be significantly above women's average -- but it's not impossible. I do think it's more likely, as Reisen stated, in sports like golf or baseball.

killerleft
04-08-2013, 12:49 PM
You quoted my post in making a snarky observation about the ball size, and I simply noted that ball size [and my incorrect observation regarding the different location of lines on the court between the men's and women's game] was the least important argument here...



I did read your argument, and I just fundamentally disagree with you and brevity. I don't believe this is a matter of imaginative thinking. It's a matter of basic biological reality, as others have [in my opinion] correctly stated. Bottom line, we're talking about one of the most uniquely talented and athletic (in fact, arguably the most uniquely talented and athletic) women's basketball players ever in the women's game—a Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain/Lew Alcindor-type of truly transcendental talent... Yet despite this fact, I really find it hard to believe that any NBA player personnel decision-maker in their right mind [with the exception of Mark "I-never-met-a-PR-opportunity-I-didn't-like" Cuban] would even consider giving Griner a serious look...

I would add to this that if there IS such a freakishly talented woman that she can play in the NBA in the future, there will likely not be any others waiting in the wings to jump to the League. I think we're talking about a rarity such as the diminutive Muggsy Bogues. Who's expecting the next 5' 3" NBA star to show up? Maybe, going in the opposite direction, that player will be a seven-footer, at least, with an unusual quickness for her size. I hope I'm still around to see this great player - if she's really out there.

Papa John
04-08-2013, 05:55 PM
I think you're making the same mistake that is often made when comparing individuals to populations. Men, on average, are stronger and faster than women, on average. This does not preclude the possibility that an individual woman can be strong enough or fast enough to make the NBA, particularly if she brings some other significant skill or value. Men in the pros are already well above average in speed and strength, so this woman would need to be significantly above women's average -- but it's not impossible. I do think it's more likely, as Reisen stated, in sports like golf or baseball.

With all due respect, we're not comparing an individual female to the entire male population. We're comparing arguably the most talented women's basketball player of all time [thus far] with the tiny sub-population of men who represent the elite athletes she would have to compete with in the NBA. The biological fact that men and women are designed differently isn't equivalent to saying Griner can't compete with any man in the sport. I daresay she can likely school the average guy in a pick-up game (she would certainly wax the floor with my scrawny behind). But that's not the question here. The question is whether she can compete against the elite level of athletes who play in the NBA. I think Brian913's example of the East German female athletes is perhaps the best way to distill the biology argument—it's not a comparison of the elite athlete against the entire population, but rather a comparison of elite athlete groupings. An elite male swimmer will always beat an elite female swimmer, period. Why? Biology. The same is true here.

moonpie23
04-09-2013, 07:58 PM
watching her special before the championship game now.......those clips showing some highlights....



not much vertical....