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hq2
03-28-2012, 04:47 PM
I have noticed for some time that we have had problems in developing our bigs in recent years. Miles didn't improve that much, Mason has gotten
better but not enormously, Zoubs never developed into nearly the end (although he had obvious injury problems), and McBobs had trouble developing
a good low post game too.

If you look at the coaching staff, they're all guards. There's not one big on the staff. I think it's time for K, if Chris Collins is leaving, to hire
a big coach who IS a big; someone who can work with them day after day on moves, footwork, positioning, etc. How about Laettner (hey,
he's with the Toros, right?), Eric Meek maybe, or someone else who is/was a decent low post player. Any suggestions?

nmduke2001
03-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I have noticed for some time that we have had problems in developing our bigs in recent years. Miles didn't improve that much, Mason has gotten
better but not enormously, Zoubs never developed into nearly the end (although he had obvious injury problems), and McBobs had trouble developing
a good low post game too.

If you look at the coaching staff, they're all guards. There's not one big on the staff. I think it's time for K, if Chris Collins is leaving, to hire
a big coach who IS a big; someone who can work with them day after day on moves, footwork, positioning, etc. How about Laettner (hey,
he's with the Toros, right?), Eric Meek maybe, or someone else who is/was a decent low post player. Any suggestions?

This topic has been discussed ad nauseum on the site. I predict much gnashing of teeth until this thread is closed.

Duvall
03-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I have noticed for some time that we have had problems in developing our bigs in recent years. Miles didn't improve that much, Mason has gotten
better but not enormously, Zoubs never developed into nearly the end (although he had obvious injury problems), and McBobs had trouble developing
a good low post game too.

If you look at the coaching staff, they're all guards. There's not one big on the staff. I think it's time for K, if Chris Collins is leaving, to hire
a big coach who IS a big; someone who can work with them day after day on moves, footwork, positioning, etc. How about Laettner (hey,
he's with the Toros, right?), Eric Meek maybe, or someone else who is/was a decent low post player. Any suggestions?

My suggestion is that you take a second look at where Miles, Mason and Zoubek were when they arrived in college.

wilko
03-28-2012, 04:52 PM
I'd like to see a comparative list on the Coaches height of other schools.
Until you can show me that, I think its overblown.

Who better to tell the big where to be to receive the ball than a PG used to delivering it?

rasputin
03-28-2012, 05:09 PM
I'd like to see a comparative list on the Coaches height of other schools.
Until you can show me that, I think its overblown.

Who better to tell the big where to be to receive the ball than a PG used to delivering it?

One of the most successful pitching coaches in MLB history, Dave Duncan, was a catcher when he played.

NashvilleDevil
03-28-2012, 05:29 PM
I have noticed for some time that we have had problems in developing our bigs in recent years. Miles didn't improve that much, Mason has gotten
better but not enormously, Zoubs never developed into nearly the end (although he had obvious injury problems), and McBobs had trouble developing
a good low post game too.

If you look at the coaching staff, they're all guards. There's not one big on the staff. I think it's time for K, if Chris Collins is leaving, to hire
a big coach who IS a big; someone who can work with them day after day on moves, footwork, positioning, etc. How about Laettner (hey,
he's with the Toros, right?), Eric Meek maybe, or someone else who is/was a decent low post player. Any suggestions?

How many years in a row has this been a thread?

mkline09
03-28-2012, 05:40 PM
How many years in a row has this been a thread?

I believe ever year that a big man wasn't the best player so yeah pretty much every year that didn't involve a guy named Laettner, Brand, Boozer or Williams just to name a few.

juise
03-28-2012, 05:48 PM
How many years in a row has this been a thread?

The question is not how many years in a row, but how many times per year.

1f, my friends. 1f.

OldPhiKap
03-28-2012, 05:48 PM
How many years in a row has this been a thread?

How long has the internet existed?

LamJones
03-28-2012, 05:52 PM
How many years in a row has this been a thread?

How many years in a row has it been a reasonable question?...

Good for you, OP, for posting an unpopular question -- one which has been a "cause celebre" for me over the years. We all love Wojo but nobody has yet explained to me how his coaching the bigs has been an asset to the program. I wish we could have that conversation here, but for some reason this topic is off limits and anyone who questions the coaching has their loyalty to the program questioned. I don't get it.

jacone21
03-28-2012, 05:52 PM
So often that I thought it was a parody post.

Greg_Newton
03-28-2012, 06:04 PM
How many years in a row has it been a reasonable question?...

Good for you, OP, for posting an unpopular question -- one which has been a "cause celebre" for me over the years. We all love Wojo but nobody has yet explained to me how his coaching the bigs has been an asset to the program. I wish we could have that conversation here, but for some reason this topic is off limits and anyone who questions the coaching has their loyalty to the program questioned. I don't get it.

Whatever your stance is, there's not really much of a conversation to be had, and it always ends the same way. There's just not really any point in going through the motions every time someone new signs up and posts the thread.

CameronBornAndBred
03-28-2012, 06:04 PM
Mods just might as well sticky this since it will never go away. It's the only sure fire way to prevent it popping up as a new thread. :rolleyes:

Wheat/"/"/"
03-28-2012, 06:04 PM
I have noticed for some time that we have had problems in developing our bigs in recent years. Miles didn't improve that much, Mason has gotten
better but not enormously, Zoubs never developed into nearly the end (although he had obvious injury problems), and McBobs had trouble developing
a good low post game too.

If you look at the coaching staff, they're all guards. There's not one big on the staff. I think it's time for K, if Chris Collins is leaving, to hire
a big coach who IS a big; someone who can work with them day after day on moves, footwork, positioning, etc. How about Laettner (hey,
he's with the Toros, right?), Eric Meek maybe, or someone else who is/was a decent low post player. Any suggestions?

I am available, salary, to be negotiated.
My resume includes many years of watching every other elite team in the country feed the low post, and I really paid attention.

I'm not a big, but I have big ideas. Hopefully that would count?

Although I am 5'8" and a buck sixty, and know that I would be more of the same, I can guarantee that all current 6'10" strong, athletic post players will sprint to a spot directly under the basket, get low, and seal the defender on their hip.

They will demand the ball. Demand it. I am a motivator.

I can promise that each will actually have something resembling a "go to" move, probably a little jump hook. Regardless, I will have them turning and throwing something up immediately after receiving the entry pass.

On second thought, I can't promise that they will ever get a shot, or an entry pass, so I guess I can't promise anything except my post "projects" will sprint down court and go directly under the basket.

I will not bring my new iPad to work.

Please contact me on my cell after 6pm, I'm usually busy during the day.

Please don't Skype me, I would rather we just Tweet if that's the only contact option.

Wheat/"/"/"

Wander
03-28-2012, 06:15 PM
One of the most successful pitching coaches in MLB history, Dave Duncan, was a catcher when he played.

Shaq is one of the best centers in NBA history, but that doesn't mean it's desirable to have your big guys be poor free throw shooters.

There's an intelligent debate to be had on the subject, but unfortunately it won't ever happen here because the topic's become too divisive and repetitive on both sides of the argument.

OldPhiKap
03-28-2012, 06:56 PM
How many years in a row has it been a reasonable question?...

Good for you, OP, for posting an unpopular question -- one which has been a "cause celebre" for me over the years. We all love Wojo but nobody has yet explained to me how his coaching the bigs has been an asset to the program. I wish we could have that conversation here, but for some reason this topic is off limits and anyone who questions the coaching has their loyalty to the program questioned. I don't get it.

It's been a "cause clebre" for you over the years, yet this is your fourth post?

hughgs
03-28-2012, 07:15 PM
It's been a "cause clebre" for you over the years, yet this is your fourth post?

I think there's a poster out there who is trying to see how many times he can get this topic posted. To do this he enlists a number of friends to pose the question. It's a conspiracy of the largest magnitude!!!

To answer the OP, I present Pete Newell, arguably the biggest big man coach. Height - 6' 2". Position - Guard.

GarrickB28
03-28-2012, 07:49 PM
1) Big men are usually ranked on perceived potential

2) Big men take much longer to develop...footwork etc...

NashvilleDevil
03-28-2012, 07:54 PM
The question is not how many years in a row, but how many times per year.

1f, my friends. 1f.

You're right. This board has one after every loss. Getting a little tired of rehashing this every year.

dukereport
03-28-2012, 07:56 PM
Sometimes perception outweighs reality when it comes to recruiting. Regardless of how good a big man coach Wojo is, until Duke starts producing stud big men, Duke will be perceived as a school that can't develop big men. Brand and Boozer are now distance memories to recruits.

DukeFanSince1990
03-28-2012, 08:11 PM
Have I ever told you about my dog? His name was Teddy. He was a good ole dog......trying to change the subject.

freshmanjs
03-28-2012, 08:14 PM
The reason this discussion never goes anywhere is because the conversation is usually poorly argued from the outset. Just like in this thread. If you want to have a good discussion about Duke's big men (past, present, and future), it is important to approach the issue logically, rather than just jumping to a conclusion that there is a problem with the coaching and, specifically, that the problem with the coaching is that the coaches were guards or are too short.

the things to discuss would be:

1) Recruiting: Is Duke getting the right talent at PF and C positions? How does our recruiting success compare to other top programs? To the extent it is knowable, why have the recruits Duke has missed on chosen to go elsewhere?

2) Coaching / player development: Have Duke players developed at an appropriate rate compared to what is typical for players at their level? If not, what is the cause of the difference? The height of the coaches may be one possible reason to consider, but is certainly not the most obvious thing to look at

3) Style of play: Does the coaching staff favor a style of play that reduces the role of the bigs on offense? Or is that not true?

4) Results in college: How does Duke big performance, over time, compare to other programs?

5) Results in NBA: How do Duke bigs do in getting drafted and performing in the NBA vs. others?

These things are all interrelated, of course, but I think worthy of an interesting discussion which is impossible to have when you start from "our coaches must be too small"

MChambers
03-28-2012, 08:18 PM
Have I ever told you about my dog? His name was Teddy. He was a good ole dog......trying to change the subject.

Big dog or small dog?

CameronBornAndBred
03-28-2012, 08:19 PM
I will add one thing, that like it or not we must take as truth. Tony Parker highlighted in his roundtable discussion that he was concerned about 1.) the development of bigs at Duke 2.) Wojo, a short guard, coaching the bigs.

We can debate amongst ourselves all we want whether there is anything wrong with Wojo coaching them (I say no) but the truth is that it obviously does make an impression on the recruits. And also like it or not, their opinion is more valuable than yours.

freshmanjs
03-28-2012, 08:26 PM
I will add one thing, that like it or not we must take as truth. Tony Parker highlighted in his roundtable discussion that he was concerned about 1.) the development of bigs at Duke 2.) Wojo, a short guard, coaching the bigs.

We can debate amongst ourselves all we want whether there is anything wrong with Wojo coaching them (I say no) but the truth is that it obviously does make an impression on the recruits. And also like it or not, their opinion is more valuable than yours.

Sure, that's an input to the discussion. Recruits say (and think) a lot of things. That comment by one guy who is still (at least outwardly) still strongly considering Duke doesn't shed a lot of light on the situation.

DukeFanSince1990
03-28-2012, 08:29 PM
Big dog or small dog?

He was a big dog, I had a hard time training him. I am only 5'9".

OldPhiKap
03-28-2012, 08:53 PM
He was a big dog, I had a hard time training him. I am only 5'9".

Have you ever won with a three cat offense? If so, I know a head coach who needs a call.

SMO
03-28-2012, 09:09 PM
I don't know how John Thompson Jr. ever coached Allen Iverson or any of his small men. He's just too tall to develop smalls.

Dukehky
03-28-2012, 09:16 PM
I will say this, I remember being at Duke basketball camp in one of Wojo's first year on staff. He gave a speech about competitiveness and "stick to it and you can do it, look at me, I'm 5'10 and can't dunk etc." He and Coach K both said that Wojo came in wanting to coach the bigs because people said he couldn't do it, so he took it as a challenge to go out there and prove that he could. I think that if Wojo was bad at it, K would be the first to put him elsewhere, and I'm also sure that big recruits look a lot more at the players who came through than the coach.

The only reason I bring this up is because I think that Wojo kind of got the job because Collins and Dawkins were occupied elsewhere, and he wanted to do it. To think that after 10 plus years he hasn't gotten markedly better after working with countless people, attending camps, working with the US team is a little absurd.

I think that if Collins takes off and there's room for a new hire, then it may be time to go after a "bigs coach," similar to how Al Brown was brought into the girls team to largely work on their post games. I'm not sure about all the speculation that Wojo hasn't been coaching them anymore, but I do believe it has been more of a team effort with Wojo, Capel, and THE Nate James.

To be perfectly honest, I think that when big recruits bring up Wojo as a potential issue with their coming to Duke, it is probably just a way to make some excuse so that people don't "blame" them. Maybe that's completely off base, but its the way that I feel about it.

CameronBornAndBred
03-28-2012, 09:55 PM
Bigs get three dribbles


Noooooo!!!!!!!!!

Edit...well that was quoted from a very interesting and fun to read by post by Greybeard that has apparently been eaten by the expanse of the internet.

loldevilz
03-28-2012, 10:10 PM
I would trust Wojo a lot more as a big man coach if he could:

A) Get one our big men to be a first team ALL-ACC caliber player
B) Get a top 5 caliber big man to commit

Mcluhan
03-28-2012, 10:15 PM
So often that I thought it was a parody post.

Especially when Eric Meek was nominated for a coaching job.

Mcluhan
03-28-2012, 10:19 PM
I would trust Wojo a lot more as a big man coach if he could:

A) Get one our big men to be a first team ALL-ACC caliber player

According to this line of thinking, our caches 'got' Jason Williams to be an All-American but failed to 'get' Sean Dockery to do the same.

Wildcat
03-28-2012, 10:23 PM
Is our coaching staff, too much like our player personnel? Homogeneous. Do all of our coaches have to be former K players? I think this is hurting us in more ways than we would like to admit. The coaches, with the exception of Cape, have no experience or exposure to other coaching styles, philosophy or methodology outside of K. Look at other elite programs; their coaching staff is more diverse in terms of experience and exposure.

Newton_14
03-28-2012, 10:33 PM
I will say this, I remember being at Duke basketball camp in one of Wojo's first year on staff. He gave a speech about competitiveness and "stick to it and you can do it, look at me, I'm 5'10 and can't dunk etc." He and Coach K both said that Wojo came in wanting to coach the bigs because people said he couldn't do it, so he took it as a challenge to go out there and prove that he could. I think that if Wojo was bad at it, K would be the first to put him elsewhere, and I'm also sure that big recruits look a lot more at the players who came through than the coach.

The only reason I bring this up is because I think that Wojo kind of got the job because Collins and Dawkins were occupied elsewhere, and he wanted to do it. To think that after 10 plus years he hasn't gotten markedly better after working with countless people, attending camps, working with the US team is a little absurd.

I think that if Collins takes off and there's room for a new hire, then it may be time to go after a "bigs coach," similar to how Al Brown was brought into the girls team to largely work on their post games. I'm not sure about all the speculation that Wojo hasn't been coaching them anymore, but I do believe it has been more of a team effort with Wojo, Capel, and THE Nate James.

To be perfectly honest, I think that when big recruits bring up Wojo as a potential issue with their coming to Duke, it is probably just a way to make some excuse so that people don't "blame" them. Maybe that's completely off base, but its the way that I feel about it.

It wasn't speculation. It may have been a temporary move, and he did not say when he changed it or when/if he changed it back, but Coach K said himself on the December 16th recording of the daily "Duke Basketball Report with Coach K and Bob Harris", that he had recently moved Wojo over to work with the PG's, and Capel over to work with the Bigs. Could have lasted a month, could have lasted a week, K did not specify. Not that it matters because I imagine all 3 of the assistants work with all of the players at some point in each season. K has official assignments for each assistant for sure, but that does not mean they aren't allowed to work with the other players on the team.

You can still access all of the daily DBR recordings at GoDuke.Com.

At any rate, Wojo is a good coach, and the fact that he is short and played PG is really irrelevant. Since only recent history counts/matters, if you look at Shelden Williams, he improved tremendously from Freshman year to Senior year. Shelden was very raw as a Freshman with only basic post moves. Defensively, staying out of foul trouble was problematic when he came in. Year over year he improved on both sides of the ball. By the time he was a Senior, the nickname "The Landlord" had been earned. Dude could block shots without fouling, and more importantly, keep the ball in play where a teammate could grab the block and snuff out the possession. Shav got better as well year over year but the injuries had a significant impact as did an unrealistic dad. Then he left early.

McBob came in, had a really good Freshman year complimenting Shelden, and had a back surgery that for some odd reason is never remembered. Despite the surgery robbing him of his hops, McBob had a really good Soph year making 2nd Team All-ACC, leading the team in scoring and rebounding. Josh had ok post moves for a Sophomore, and those post moves were better than he showed his Freshman year. What he did not have was shooting touch, and that my friends is not something that can be corrected with coaching. He was a natural righty who changed over to shooting lefty as a kid due to a wrist injury and he never switched back. I always thought that played a role in the lack of shooting touch, but we will never know.

Kyle Singler played his first 2 years in the post and certainly developed into a great post defender despite the lack of height. If you watched Kyle defend in the post as a Sophomore, his post defense was textbook perfect. He did not get beat much, but when he did it was due to the offensive post player having a significant size advantage, or in some cases a significant quickness advantage. Pull the tapes from the 2009 ACC Tourney and watch Kyle defend in the post in that tourney. Impressive.

I could go on, as both Mason and Miles have improved year over year, as did Lance and Zoubs when he finally got healthy. When you talk about developing bigs people only focus on offense, but development on defense is just as critical. Wojo has helped all of these guys grow and develop.

The only questions I have for the naysayers are, Who is the bigs coach at UNC? Kentucky? Ohio St? Syracuse? Louisville? Mich St? What are their height's? What position did they play in College? Did they even play in College? (No googling allowed)

Kedsy
03-28-2012, 11:15 PM
I would trust Wojo a lot more as a big man coach if he could:

A) Get one our big men to be a first team ALL-ACC caliber player


You mean like Carlos Boozer and Shelden Williams, both of whom were coached by Wojo?

greybeard
03-29-2012, 12:16 AM
Pay half court, four on four or five on five. Four on four is better, two inside players (bigs), two outide players littles. Bigs two dribbles, guards once. Bigs must touch once befoe you can shoot. Big catches and scores in the paint, two points but cannot simply take advantage of height advantage, All other scores one. Three seconds counts. 10-12 wins or 12 minutes whichever first. Winner's out. Winners stay on, come off after 2 in a row if guys waiting.

Reverse, big guys out and littles in. If Big passes it into paint and guy scores, two points. One point for all other shots shots. Bigs three dribbles, littles two. Sameother rules apply.

Five on five basically the same thing. The two inside littles, two dribbles and two points if catch and scores in paint off pass from big two points. All other shots one point.

Every body learns from others from both perspectives. Bigs learn from littles different moves off inside catch, littles learn from bigs how they set up man and move to space. Both learn how to see space and work together to connect in good spots. etc. NO COACHES OR COACHING EXCEPT AMONG PLAYERS AND KEEP THAT DOWN.

Edouble
03-29-2012, 01:24 AM
Honestly, Wojo played PG, and I would not want him coaching our PGs.

I know that sounds bad, but the guy got by on guts and heart. He couldn't handle the ball with his left hand. He was probably the least skilled PG we have had in the Coach K era. He is now charged with teaching skills to a position that he didn't play. That sounds rough.

To me he is in the mold of a Coach K, Bobby Knight, Bob Huggins, Frank Martin, etc. etc.--yell at your players and get them pumped up to your level. As a player, he helped our team with his emotional input as much as his basketball skills. Maybe he knows Xs and Os? IDK, but how would you react if you found out that Mateen Cleaves was coaching the big guys at Michigan State. Wouldn't you do a double take? I know I would.

This thread comes up every year because it, sadly, continues to be relevant, especially now that we find out it is hurting us in recruiting. Pick apart my last statement if you will, but if a potential recruit mentions it as a reason that he is second guessing Duke, it is hurting us.

Here's the thing... you can argue 'til the cows come home about how others schools have short guys coaching their bigs. There is one huge difference between those guys and Wojo.

Everybody knows Wojo!!!!!!! Do you see how that's different? We've all seen him on the court. Our image of him is not one we would associate with coaching elite centers and power forwards. Maybe other coaches are equally short, but recruits and recruit's parents don't have an image of them ingrained in their heads. Wojo, on the other hand, was a polarizing point guard who played small and scrappy, and almost fed his ticker, so it seemed, off of being a smaller, less physically-able, less talented, but grittier combatant. That's the image all these people have of Wojo. It's just difficult to all of the sudden imagine him as a coach of elite big man talent.

It's kind of like how Ice Cube is now doing family pictures. He's that badass from N.W.A. It just doesn't fit for me. I have this image of him that is so deep in my psyche, that even if his movies are funny, it just seems a bit off. Wojo... WOJO?!?! is coaching our bigs guys? I think that is the gut reaction of most recruits and parents of recruits. And they are not gonna read through 800 posts explaining how it is irrational to think that.

If Parks and Wojo are equally good at coaching bigs, we still get more bigs coming in with Parks on the bench. It just feels better.

airowe
03-29-2012, 01:38 AM
Can recruits have a perception of Wojo as a player in their minds if Brand and Boozer are too distant a memory for them to remember?

LamJones
03-29-2012, 07:49 AM
It's been a "cause clebre" for you over the years, yet this is your fourth post?

Yes, it has. I gave up trying to share my opinions on the subject when my posts were flagged/deleted. Do you have something substantive to add?

LamJones
03-29-2012, 07:51 AM
I don't know how John Thompson Jr. ever coached Allen Iverson or any of his small men. He's just too tall to develop smalls.

When JT was coaching, he was known for developing bigs....

Also, I'm not sure his assistant coaches were all 7ft tall.

freshmanjs
03-29-2012, 07:58 AM
Can recruits have a perception of Wojo as a player in their minds if Brand and Boozer are too distant a memory for them to remember?

the bad logic in these discussions is mind boggling. players remember wojo and danny manning but can't remember brand and boozer (who is still playing a near all-star level in the nba).

bigs can't possibly be coached well or recruited by a guard (except they are all the time, all around the country, including at Duke).

well, actually, the super-important difference is they can't be coached by a guard that was famous for being a scrappy player 14 years ago. except these recruits who "all remember wojo" were about 3 when he played his last game.

CDu
03-29-2012, 08:10 AM
the bad logic in these discussions is mind boggling. players remember wojo and danny manning but can't remember brand and boozer (who is still playing a near all-star level in the nba).

bigs can't possibly be coached well or recruited by a guard (except they are all the time, all around the country, including at Duke).

well, actually, the super-important difference is they can't be coached by a guard that was famous for being a scrappy player 14 years ago. except these recruits who "all remember wojo" were about 3 when he played his last game.

Wojo didn't coach Brand, and I'm not sure he had much impact on Boozer (who was a star coming in). I'd use Shelden Williams as a better example of a very raw but gifted big man whose offensive game really developed at Duke. But I agree that Wojo being a guard has no bearing on his ability to coach big men.

To my knowledge UNC doesn't have a big man working with their bigs. Neither does Georgetown. Most teams don't have big men coaches.

Wojo may or may not be a good big man coach. It has nothing to do with his height or college position.

muzikfrk75
03-29-2012, 08:21 AM
Honestly, Wojo played PG, and I would not want him coaching our PGs.

I know that sounds bad, but the guy got by on guts and heart. He couldn't handle the ball with his left hand. He was probably the least skilled PG we have had in the Coach K era. He is now charged with teaching skills to a position that he didn't play. That sounds rough.

To me he is in the mold of a Coach K, Bobby Knight, Bob Huggins, Frank Martin, etc. etc.--yell at your players and get them pumped up to your level. As a player, he helped our team with his emotional input as much as his basketball skills. Maybe he knows Xs and Os? IDK, but how would you react if you found out that Mateen Cleaves was coaching the big guys at Michigan State. Wouldn't you do a double take? I know I would.

This thread comes up every year because it, sadly, continues to be relevant, especially now that we find out it is hurting us in recruiting. Pick apart my last statement if you will, but if a potential recruit mentions it as a reason that he is second guessing Duke, it is hurting us.

Here's the thing... you can argue 'til the cows come home about how others schools have short guys coaching their bigs. There is one huge difference between those guys and Wojo.

Everybody knows Wojo!!!!!!! Do you see how that's different? We've all seen him on the court. Our image of him is not one we would associate with coaching elite centers and power forwards. Maybe other coaches are equally short, but recruits and recruit's parents don't have an image of them ingrained in their heads. Wojo, on the other hand, was a polarizing point guard who played small and scrappy, and almost fed his ticker, so it seemed, off of being a smaller, less physically-able, less talented, but grittier combatant. That's the image all these people have of Wojo. It's just difficult to all of the sudden imagine him as a coach of elite big man talent.

It's kind of like how Ice Cube is now doing family pictures. He's that badass from N.W.A. It just doesn't fit for me. I have this image of him that is so deep in my psyche, that even if his movies are funny, it just seems a bit off. Wojo... WOJO?!?! is coaching our bigs guys? I think that is the gut reaction of most recruits and parents of recruits. And they are not gonna read through 800 posts explaining how it is irrational to think that.

If Parks and Wojo are equally good at coaching bigs, we still get more bigs coming in with Parks on the bench. It just feels better.


I agree with all of this....especially the Ice Cube part (from Straight Outta Compton to Are We There Yet? Huh? lol)

OldPhiKap
03-29-2012, 08:34 AM
Yes, it has. I gave up trying to share my opinions on the subject when my posts were flagged/deleted. Do you have something substantive to add?

Sure, glad you asked.

First, the whole "Duke never has good big men" is objectively false. See Carlos, Sheldon, Brand. Wojo coached the first two IIRC.

Second, the whole "only big men can teach big men" is objectively false. See Newell, Pete a/k/a/ the Big Man Guru.

Third, the whole "Duke is not percieved as being a big man school" is perpetuated by rehaishing these objectively false arguments in the guise of discussion points without any statistics. If someone can tell me how tall the big man coach was for LSU when Shaq was there, or Navy when Robinson was there. or Wake when Duncan was there, or Clemson when they had the best centers in the conference (mid-80's), etc. that would be one thing. Has a single player ever said that their coach couldn't teach their position because of how tall he was?

Not calling you out, just tired of this. I am sure you will forgive those who see these kinds of posts as trolling. Just sayin'


-- OPK

CameronBornAndBred
03-29-2012, 08:53 AM
Has a single player ever said that their coach couldn't teach their position because of how tall he was?

I agree with everything you say, and most others say. But....
Unfortunately it's not the ones who have already been taught that we are concernced with, it's the ones we are recruiting. And it's obvious they notice.

His chief concern is one that Parker says "everyone thinks."
"Just the development of their big men is something that concerns me," Parker said. "People think I hate Duke. That's crazy. Love Duke, it's just something I have to factor in."
Parker has thought about this extensively.
He reels off a list of names of supposed "can't miss" prospects in high school who never lived up to the hype in Durham, N.C.
Names like Shavlik Randolph (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2810/shavlik-randolph), Lance Thomas (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6485/lance-thomas), Josh McRoberts (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3220/josh-mcroberts)and "even Mason Plumlee (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/45913/mason-plumlee)."
"Mason was a monster in high school," Parker said. "Don't get me wrong, he's really good now, but I thought he would be much further along."
........................
"Exactly," Parker said. "I really like Duke. I just can't honestly say that I'm 100 percent comfortable with a guard teaching me about the post. Coach [Steve] Wojciechowski is like 5-foot-6."
"Well, I'm only 5-foot-11, Tony and -- " Virgil said.
"And you're the worst big-man coach in America," Parker joked.

http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-basketball/story/_/id/7717492/tony-parker-recruiting-roundtable

Regardless of whether TP or any other recruit is right or wrong in their assumption about Wojo or another guard teaching them, the perception is out there that Duke does not indeed develop bigs the way they would hope.

Scorp4me
03-29-2012, 09:24 AM
Unfortunately it's not the ones who have already been taught that we are concernced with, it's the ones we are recruiting. And it's obvious they notice.

So we need to change our coaching staff based on the flawed logic of a teenager? God this thread makes my head hurt with all of the flawed logic.

freshmanjs
03-29-2012, 09:28 AM
So we need to change our coaching staff based on the flawed logic of a teenager? God this thread makes my head hurt with all of the flawed logic.

it's amazing, truly. i hope no recruit says they are not 100% comfortable being coached by a 65 year old man. we'd have to change head coaches and that would be too bad.

what if a recruit says they are not 100% comfortable living in Durham...would we have to move the whole university?

CameronBornAndBred
03-29-2012, 09:32 AM
So we need to change our coaching staff based on the flawed logic of a teenager? God this thread makes my head hurt with all of the flawed logic.

Nope, we don't need to change a thing. But we do need to accept as fact that the development of our bigs is something that is taken into account when we are being evaluated by a recruit. Just as others have pointed out, tons of schools don't have big men coaching big men...and I bet some of the ones that do, the coaches aren't all that great. But still, like it or not, the perception of a guard teaching a big center can be held as a negative. We've lived with it for years, we've won championships while we've done it, and we'll win a few more. It's up to the recruit to see how much of the big picture he chooses to see.

cameroncrazy3104
03-29-2012, 09:37 AM
One of the most successful pitching coaches in MLB history, Dave Duncan, was a catcher when he played.

Duncan is different because in baseball the catcher learns how to call pitches and how to use different pitchers, although he did help he did not do much with the pitchers mechanics, because lets face it the cardinals pitchers don't need to change their mechanics.

As far as a new coach I would say Wojo does not need to be the big man coach anymore and bring in laettner and have nate james help

SMO
03-29-2012, 10:07 AM
When JT was coaching, he was known for developing bigs....


Sure, but how did a guy that tall ever develop any smalls? It's common knowledge on this forum that relative height is the primary determinant of coaching skill.

CDu
03-29-2012, 10:21 AM
I agree with everything you say, and most others say. But....
Unfortunately it's not the ones who have already been taught that we are concernced with, it's the ones we are recruiting. And it's obvious they notice.

http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-basketball/story/_/id/7717492/tony-parker-recruiting-roundtable

Regardless of whether TP or any other recruit is right or wrong in their assumption about Wojo or another guard teaching them, the perception is out there that Duke does not indeed develop bigs the way they would hope.


Nope, we don't need to change a thing. But we do need to accept as fact that the development of our bigs is something that is taken into account when we are being evaluated by a recruit. Just as others have pointed out, tons of schools don't have big men coaching big men...and I bet some of the ones that do, the coaches aren't all that great. But still, like it or not, the perception of a guard teaching a big center can be held as a negative. We've lived with it for years, we've won championships while we've done it, and we'll win a few more. It's up to the recruit to see how much of the big picture he chooses to see.

Exactly. We can discuss till we're blue in the face all the reasons that it doesn't matter whether a guy is big or small in terms of coaching up bigs. We can hem and haw over whether or not our coaches are or are not good at coaching up bigs. The reality is that many recruits buy into that perception (accurate or not). As such, it is an obstacle that Coach K and the staff have to overcome.

All it takes is a couple of guys to come in and change that perception. A guy like Okafor down the road would do that. Parker could potentially do it, though he's probably not an immediate impact guy (we'll see). It just takes one or two to change perception.

greybeard
03-29-2012, 10:23 AM
I don't know how John Thompson Jr. ever coached Allen Iverson or any of his small men. He's just too tall to develop smalls.

You're kidding right? BeBe Duran, first recruiting class, lost to Iowa in final 8, played a few years in the NBA, Sleepy Floyd, Ron (his name secapes me), think he played with Ewing; Charles Smith (Reggie and the Miracles, all big East and Celtic before he went to jail , Reggie and the Miracles, Marl Tilman (all big east) and running mate, the guy who played with Iverson last year or two and next year became Iverson, Freddie Brown, to name a few.

freshmanjs
03-29-2012, 10:24 AM
You're kidding right? BeBe Duran, first recruiting class, lost to Iowa in final 8, played a few years in the NBA, Sleepy Floyd, Ron (his name secapes me), think he played with Ewing; Charles Smith (Reggie and the Miracles, all big East and Celtic before he went to jail , Reggie and the Miracles, Marl Tilman (all big east) and running mate, the guy who played with Iverson last year or two and next year became Iverson, Freddie Brown, to name a few.

yes, he was obviously kidding.

greybeard
03-29-2012, 10:57 AM
Duke plays to bigs who can post, shield, attack the basket from thatr position, or turn and shoot. For those who can't, offense not geared to getting center on the move. McRob did not play well in the post and shield game. McRob had difficulty holding guys off and passes were often deflected. He also had difficulty scoring off catches made in that position--not easy, unless you are very solidly built. McRob's entire offenssive game was adversely impacted by that back.

After McRob, Duke's offense featured outside players;, bigs, because they couldn't score off the post-and-shield game almost never saw the ball inside and never on the move for a short pull up jump shot from close or continuation to the basket. Mason this year has been the exception--he is quite effective in posting, shielding, and scoring off the drive, even thogh he is rarely seen as a firat option by anyone but Kelly.

I can't see how you can accurately measure WoJo's performance in coaching bigs when the offense is not geared to getting the ball inside off motion. Zoubs, from the ACC tournament on through the Championship game often saw a few plays un at the beginning of games in which he caughton the move. He was quite effective.

I think that it is impossible to "teach" guys who are not built for it to score the ball off a post and shield with the catch coming after the defender is leaning on him. Lance was used often on the right corner of the post; he got shots and got to the basket awfully well but did not finish, blowing layups after some excellent moves.

IBleedBlue
03-29-2012, 11:09 AM
So we need to change our coaching staff based on the flawed logic of a teenager? God this thread makes my head hurt with all of the flawed logic.
I won't argue with you if flawed logic belonged to only one teenager. But what about Mitch McGary. In his ESPN blog a few weeks ago, even he mentions that Duke bigs only rebound and set screens and don't get many touches. What do you say about that? Do you think two teenagers ranked in top20 this coming year are both flawed with their logic?

freshmanjs
03-29-2012, 11:10 AM
I won't argue with you if flawed logic belonged to only one teenager. But what about Mitch McGary. In his ESPN blog a few weeks ago, even he mentions that Duke bigs only rebound and set screens and don't get many touches. What do you say about that? Do you think two teenagers ranked in top20 this coming year are both flawed with their logic?

i'd say that has nothing to do with wojo's height. and also that every recruit who decides to go elsewhere has a reason. and to your last question, yes.

IBleedBlue
03-29-2012, 11:55 AM
i'd say that has nothing to do with wojo's height. and also that every recruit who decides to go elsewhere has a reason. and to your last question, yes.
I agree with you that it has nothing to do with Coach wojo's height. But the perception among these recruits that a guard is coaching bigs at Duke has everything to do with Coach wojo.
Are you going to tell me that the perception is also flawed when these kids are actively stating it across internet?

freshmanjs
03-29-2012, 12:02 PM
I agree with you that it has nothing to do with Coach wojo's height. But the perception among these recruits that a guard is coaching bigs at Duke has everything to do with Coach wojo.
Are you going to tell me that the perception is also flawed when these kids are actively stating it across internet?

sure, some recruits have the perception that duke is too guard oriented. some have a specific perception that wojo coaching bigs is a problem. there are a lot of other perceptions that exist

duke is too soft
duke is not for city kids
duke is snobby, student body too entitled
etc, etc, etc

but, so what?

i think there is a legit discussion to be had about whether our style is too guard oriented and whether we make the most effective use of our bigs. totally legit discussion and, i actually think we can do better in this area potentially.

however, the leaping to conclusions that wojo is the problem and that the reason is he was a pg is what i find ridiculous, even if a recruit states that is his view.

SMO
03-29-2012, 12:30 PM
You're kidding right? BeBe Duran, first recruiting class, lost to Iowa in final 8, played a few years in the NBA, Sleepy Floyd, Ron (his name secapes me), think he played with Ewing; Charles Smith (Reggie and the Miracles, all big East and Celtic before he went to jail , Reggie and the Miracles, Marl Tilman (all big east) and running mate, the guy who played with Iverson last year or two and next year became Iverson, Freddie Brown, to name a few.

Yes, I am kidding!

DukeFanSince1990
03-29-2012, 01:55 PM
Have you ever won with a three cat offense? If so, I know a head coach who needs a call.

:) I take what I have and play to their strengths. Ever tried to make a cat bark? Its hard.

rasputin
03-29-2012, 05:40 PM
:) I take what I have and play to their strengths. Ever tried to make a cat bark? Its hard.

It's easy to make a cat bark. Just tell him not to.

NSDukeFan
03-29-2012, 06:10 PM
Can recruits have a perception of Wojo as a player in their minds if Brand and Boozer are too distant a memory for them to remember?

Wojo played PG? I thought he was just Duke's big man coach.

Duvall
03-29-2012, 06:13 PM
Wojo played PG? I thought he was just Duke's big man coach.

Actually, I'm wondering how much longer it will be before Wojo has spent more time as a big man coach than he ever did as a point guard. Has to be getting close.

NSDukeFan
03-29-2012, 06:45 PM
Actually, I'm wondering how much longer it will be before Wojo has spent more time as a big man coach than he ever did as a point guard. Has to be getting close.

I was thinking the same thing after I posted. It's obviously not close at the college level.

CDu
03-29-2012, 07:28 PM
Actually, I'm wondering how much longer it will be before Wojo has spent more time as a big man coach than he ever did as a point guard. Has to be getting close.

He's been a coach for 13 years now. That's almost certainly longer than he's been a PG in organized basketball.