PDA

View Full Version : Harrison Barnes - "The Brand"



Pages : [1] 2

mapleleafdevil
03-26-2012, 03:09 PM
While I do feel sorry for our mortal enemies (it is horrible losing a chance at a championship to an injury), I can't say that this article didn't provide me with some childish satisfaction. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7737280/harrison-barnes-two-years-north-carolina-tar-heels

roywhite
03-26-2012, 03:14 PM
While I do feel sorry for our mortal enemies (it is horrible losing a chance at a championship to an injury), I can't say that this article didn't provide me with some childish satisfaction. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7737280/harrison-barnes-two-years-north-carolina-tar-heels

From the article:


It's easy to blame all this weird, precocious ugliness as well as Barnes's basketball troubles on the "fast-paced media," high school recruiting, and big-time college athletics, but the somewhat liberating truth is that Harrison Barnes just wasn't a great basketball player. He was good, sure, and shot the ball with a confidence that went far beyond his youth, but he never really developed any other part of his game....

Who but Barnes would give an interview to The Atlantic? What other basketball phenom would think himself into a pretzel and decide that the best way to promote Harrison Barnes, the brand, would be to talk about Harrison Barnes, the brand?


Thwack.

-bdbd
03-26-2012, 03:59 PM
While I do feel sorry for our mortal enemies (it is horrible losing a chance at a championship to an injury), I can't say that this article didn't provide me with some childish satisfaction. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7737280/harrison-barnes-two-years-north-carolina-tar-heels

It almost made me feel sorry for the young man.


...and then I thought about Skype.

superdave
03-26-2012, 04:03 PM
"It's not entirely fair to judge Barnes in two games without his point guard, but it's particularly damning that a lottery-bound perimeter scorer couldn't create his own shot against the mighty Ohio Bobcats. On Sunday, in the biggest game of his career, Barnes missed his last six shots and looked lost when the game was on the line."

Devilsfan
03-26-2012, 04:04 PM
He seems like a very intelligent young man when he is interviewed. Knowing who he signed with, I wonder if he was given any suggestions or advice on how to announce his final choice. I believe he me with another HC later that evening after Coach K left his home.

FreezingDevil
03-26-2012, 04:06 PM
Another great read from Grantland. One thing that the author does not mention, but complements his argument, is that a big factor in Barnes' decision to go to Carolina was do to his desire to "build his brand". I remember during the recruitment process that Barnes made a big deal out of the fact that UNC had a business and marketing major, while Duke does not. And then there's the whole Jordan thing, the brand of all brands. To be honest, if my #1 priority was to become a global icon, I'd probably pick Carolina over Duke too.

Yet, as the article points out, brands need to be supported by a quality product and Barnes has struggled to back up the hype. In some alternate universe, it wouldn't surprise me if Barnes actually would have been more successful as a player -- and ultimately as a brand -- had he gone to Duke. Think about it -- at Duke his freshman year he would not have been required to be "the man" right away and might not have had his confidence crushed at a critical stage. He would have picked up some toughness banging away with Singler in practice and might have learned from Nolan how to endear oneself to a fanbase. Undoubtedly, Coach K would have improved Barnes' defense and have given him a stern talking to when his level of effort wasn't there. I could be wrong, but I always got the impression that Roy could be soft with Barnes at times.

All that is to say that I think Barnes could have been a much more improved basketball player after two years at Duke than Carolina. Kind of ironic isn't it?

David
03-26-2012, 04:14 PM
Another telling quote from footnote 1 in the article


"Here's the other problem, particularly for whatever NBA team drafts Barnes. It's possible that the reason why he didn't improve is that there just isn't much ceiling left. Barnes has no first step, he doesn't have a particularly great feel for the game, especially in the half court, and he doesn't play much defense. I guess he's technically a good rebounder for his size, but he's rarely showed sustained effort on the boards."

Barnes reached his ceiling in high school due to his polished game. However, I think the author is spot on that he improved relatively little while at UNC. You could even make a case that he regressed somewhat in terms of his confidence, especially in late game situations.

davekay1971
03-26-2012, 04:27 PM
Another telling quote from footnote 1 in the article



Barnes reached his ceiling in high school due to his polished game. However, I think the author is spot on that he improved relatively little while at UNC. You could even make a case that he regressed somewhat in terms of his confidence, especially in late game situations.

I don't know. Harrison started out pretty awful in college, but by the end of last season he was a pretty darn good player. He was a legitimate 1st team all-ACC this year (granted you could make an argument for a couple other guys, as I did for Marshall, but Barnes wasn't a notably BAD choice by any means. If not first team, he was certainly 2nd team.)

Putting aside the media expectations prior to his arrival at UNC (partly his fault, partly the fault of the typically hyperventilating media), Barnes went from tentative, unsure freshman to a very good freshman, then to an All-ACC caliber sophomore. A lot of that is due to Marshall (as evidenced by his regression without Marshall in the lineup). But a lot of that improvement may also be due to Barnes, himself, improving as a player.

What's Barnes' ceiling? Well, the guy does have good athletics, a good jumper. He needs to work on his mid-range game, his handle, and his defense. He may not be (he almost certainly is not) another Jordan or Bryant...but he could very well be another Ray Allen.

roywhite
03-26-2012, 04:46 PM
What's Barnes' ceiling? Well, the guy does have good athletics, a good jumper. He needs to work on his mid-range game, his handle, and his defense. He may not be (he almost certainly is not) another Jordan or Bryant...but he could very well be another Ray Allen.

Well, I suppose it's possible, but seems unlikely that Barnes will become a Ray Allen type shooter.

This year, at age 36, Allen is shooting 45.9% from 3-pt and 92.1% from the free throw line.
He's a career 40% 3-pt shooter from the NBA 3-point line despite plenty of defensive attention to guard against just that skill.

Harrison Barnes, by contrast, shot 35.8% from 3-pt range this year, and was a 72.3% foul shooter.
Despite some cold shooting in recent games by Duke's outside threats, the following season totals from 3-pt range are all better than Barnes:
Austin Rivers 36.5%
Seth Curry 38.3%
Ryan Kelly 40.8%
Andre Dawkins 39.2%

I'm thinking Barnes is a Sean Elliott type pro at best, which isn't bad, but won't get him on the Wheaties box.

CDu
03-26-2012, 04:52 PM
I don't know. Harrison started out pretty awful in college, but by the end of last season he was a pretty darn good player. He was a legitimate 1st team all-ACC this year (granted you could make an argument for a couple other guys, as I did for Marshall, but Barnes wasn't a notably BAD choice by any means. If not first team, he was certainly 2nd team.)

Putting aside the media expectations prior to his arrival at UNC (partly his fault, partly the fault of the typically hyperventilating media), Barnes went from tentative, unsure freshman to a very good freshman, then to an All-ACC caliber sophomore. A lot of that is due to Marshall (as evidenced by his regression without Marshall in the lineup). But a lot of that improvement may also be due to Barnes, himself, improving as a player.

What's Barnes' ceiling? Well, the guy does have good athletics, a good jumper. He needs to work on his mid-range game, his handle, and his defense. He may not be (he almost certainly is not) another Jordan or Bryant...but he could very well be another Ray Allen.

Is it coincidence though that his improvement as a freshman coincided with Marshall taking over the offense? He averaged 19ppg and 6.3rpg last year after Marshall became the starting PG. He averaged 17.1ppg and 5.2rpg this year with essentially the same lineup. Is that really improvement?

CDu
03-26-2012, 04:54 PM
Well, I suppose it's possible, but seems unlikely that Barnes will become a Ray Allen type shooter.

This year, at age 36, Allen is shooting 45.9% from 3-pt and 92.1% from the free thorw line.
He's a career 40% 3-pt shooter from the NBA 3-point line despite plenty of defensive attention to guard against just that skill.

Harrison Barnes, by contrast, shot 35.8% from 3-pt range this year, and was a 72.3% foul shooter.
Despite some cold shooting in recent games by Duke's outside threats, the following season totals from 3-pt range are all better than Barnes:
Austin Rivers 36.5%
Seth Curry 38.3%
Ryan Kelly 40.8%
Andre Dawkins 39.2%

I'm thinking Barnes is a Sean Elliott type pro at best, which isn't bad, but won't get him on the Wheaties box.

Good points, and I like the Sean Elliott comp. Though I think Elliott pre injury was probably better.

El_Diablo
03-26-2012, 04:59 PM
Another great read from Grantland.

I usually think Grantland articles are worthless hyperbolic blather. This one is no different.

78Devil
03-26-2012, 05:07 PM
I don't know anything about Grantland, but the article contained a barely disguised nasty, mean-spiritedness. While we can all criticize either Harrison's Barnes' method of announcing that he was going to UNC and/or his game, he is a young man of apparent character and I would never want to see any player -- playing for us or UNC -- given that kind of backhanded compliment treatment. Even if elements of the article ring true, somehow reading it made me feel like the proverbial expression -- lie down with dogs and get up with fleas. Yuck.

Duvall
03-26-2012, 05:13 PM
I don't know anything about Grantland, but the article contained a barely disguised nasty, mean-spiritedness. While we can all criticize either Harrison's Barnes' method of announcing that he was going to UNC and/or his game, he is a young man of apparent character and I would never want to see any player -- playing for us or UNC -- given that kind of backhanded compliment treatment. Even if elements of the article ring true, somehow reading it made me feel like the proverbial expression -- lie down with dogs and get up with fleas. Yuck.

Pretty sure the author is a UNC fan.

Kewlswim
03-26-2012, 05:18 PM
Hi,

These are kids and though I have no qualms attacking the UNC fan base, I am hesitant to say bad things about the players themselves. Kids don't deserve that. The truth is I could never shoot the rock as well as the last kid on the bench at Carolina. I am sickened by the typical anti-Duke Carolina fan who not only says mean spirited things about Duke's players and coaches, but often says things about our student body as a whole that make me cringe.

GO DUKE!

ncexnyc
03-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Like I wrote yesterday. You can start calling him Brand X. An inferior product you compare to better products.

geraldsneighbor
03-26-2012, 05:30 PM
I don't know how to say this exactly without sounding biased, but would things have been different for Barnes had he chosen Duke?

He came to Carolina after they had just a miserable season. From the start the expectations were high on him turning UNC back into a top 10 caliber to right away. His personality on the court to me seems way too passive, and I think maybe this situation was too much for him too soon.

I know his concern with Duke might have been the potential for Singler to return and Carolina was still coming off the high of a championship season, but is it that outrageous to think Barnes picked the wrong school?

Had he went to Duke he would've been apart a line-up of likely 5 NBA players, while playing with a budding super-star (albeit when healthy) Kyrie Irving. Just throwing it out there...

Sir Stealth
03-26-2012, 05:41 PM
Hi,

These are kids and though I have no qualms attacking the UNC fan base, I am hesitant to say bad things about the players themselves. Kids don't deserve that. The truth is I could never shoot the rock as well as the last kid on the bench at Carolina. I am sickened by the typical anti-Duke Carolina fan who not only says mean spirited things about Duke's players and coaches, but often says things about our student body as a whole that make me cringe.

GO DUKE!

It's an interesting question if college players should really be called kids or not. Harrison Barnes himself would probably prefer that he be considered a grown man at this point. I think that representing a university as a celebrated athlete on the national stage only adds to that, and that's before you even consider the steps he has personally taken to increase his own exposure and, of course, "brand." Soon he will be a professional and a millionaire, and if people Barnes's age really are kids who should be protected, then maybe we should reconsider who is eligible to serve in our military.

I do completely agree with your comments about bringing student bodies into a rivalry that is supposed to be about sports.

-jk
03-26-2012, 05:44 PM
It's an interesting question if college players should really be called kids or not. Harrison Barnes himself would probably prefer that he be considered a grown man at this point. I think that representing a university as a celebrated athlete on the national stage only adds to that, and that's before you even consider the steps he has personally taken to increase his own exposure and, of course, "brand." Soon he will be a professional and a millionaire, and if people Barnes's age really are kids who should be protected, then maybe we should reconsider who is eligible to serve in our military.

I do completely agree with your comments about bringing student bodies into a rivalry that is supposed to be about sports.

I'll go with "kids". The spooks will tell us their brains aren't fully developed until their mid 20s.

-jk

miramar
03-26-2012, 05:51 PM
I asked yesterday if it was too early to start talking about Barnes's legacy, which would be that he was good but not great and certainly not worth all the hype. After this article, there's not much left to say except that I would feel sorry for the kid if he weren't going to end up a multimillionaire no matter what.

On the other hand, a bit of Duke perspective may be in order. When Barnes went to the dark side, some people seemed to think that Duke basketball was a thing of the past. We couldn't compete with ol' Roy, even with a guy who had Duke written all over him as Barnes supposedly did. A preseason magazine had Coach K on the canvas, Sonny Liston style, and a so-called expert said in the accompanying articled that Duke would never be a top flight program as long as Coach K remained in charge. Not to mention all the people who said he was wasting too much time with USA basketball.

Needless to say, our horrible recruiting still got Kyrie, who was far superior to the Black Pigeon, who was supposed to be the best freshman in the country but wasn't even the best in the Triangle. We won in 2010 and were the best team in the country in 2011 until Kyrie got hurt. Duke never came together in 2012, but we have a lot of guys coming back and better days are ahead. And that's whether or not we get Shabazz Muhammad, Tony Parker, or Amile Jefferson.

Acymetric
03-26-2012, 06:06 PM
It's an interesting question if college players should really be called kids or not. Harrison Barnes himself would probably prefer that he be considered a grown man at this point. I think that representing a university as a celebrated athlete on the national stage only adds to that, and that's before you even consider the steps he has personally taken to increase his own exposure and, of course, "brand." Soon he will be a professional and a millionaire, and if people Barnes's age really are kids who should be protected, then maybe we should reconsider who is eligible to serve in our military.

I do completely agree with your comments about bringing student bodies into a rivalry that is supposed to be about sports.

Its also worth noting whenever people complain about this on the internet that some of the posters here (and fans in general) are about the same age or even younger than the players being discussed. I just graduated college, have several close friends younger than HB, and would hesitate to call them kids.

Of course, I'm sure I'll have a different perspective on the kid-man continuum when I'm 45, so I guess this is all about perspective.

WiJoe
03-26-2012, 06:29 PM
I usually think Grantland articles are worthless hyperbolic blather. This one is no different.

Have to agree. It had a tremendous story at its inception about the late, great "National" newspaper. Downhill since.

SilkyJ
03-26-2012, 06:38 PM
"It's not entirely fair to judge Barnes in two games without his point guard, but it's particularly damning that a lottery-bound perimeter scorer couldn't create his own shot against the mighty Ohio Bobcats. On Sunday, in the biggest game of his career, Barnes missed his last six shots and looked lost when the game was on the line."

I dont know why I'm defending the guy since he was largely a disappointment, albeit next to the INSANELY high expectations thrust upon him (or perhaps brought upon him by himself), but the Bobcats are a great perimeter defensive team. They hold teams to <30% shooting from 3 and I picked them to upset Michigan and get to the sweet 16 based on their perimeter defense.

But yea, that should still probably cause alarm for NBA GMs thinking about drafting him early in the lottery.

gus
03-26-2012, 06:46 PM
Of course, I'm sure I'll have a different perspective on the kid-man continuum when I'm 45, so I guess this is all about perspective.

You will, Sonny, and probably earlier than 45.

Atlanta Duke
03-26-2012, 06:46 PM
I usually think Grantland articles are worthless hyperbolic blather. This one is no different.

The article works if you place it in context as a response to the hagiographic Atlantic article by Chapel Hill resident Jason Zengerle that is linked in its first paragraph and featured these sorts of observations

Barnes, now a sophomore at UNC, has lived up to the hype, both on and off the court. A 6-foot-8 small forward with a silky jumper and a knack for hitting game-winning shots, he’s also widely touted as college basketball’s most cerebral star since Bill Bradley

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/04/moneyballer/8911/

oldnavy
03-26-2012, 06:50 PM
I thought the article was fair. Barnes is methodical and stiff. I don't think he has made much improvement at all since he came to UNC. He has had some really good games, and some not so good games. It is very clear that Marshall makes him a better player. Barnes really cannot create anything on his own, his ball handling is poor, and he is hesitant to get physical.

But, all of the things above can be improved on given the right environment. I do not think he is going to get better at UNC. I have never seen Roy get into Barnes face like he has with other players on UNC. Maybe he has, but it seems to me that Barnes can do or not do whatever he wants to with a pretty long leash. This is just my opinion based on watching about every UNC game in the last two years, but I really do not know what goes on off camera.

What I think is going to ultimately deceide Barnes' legacy is his attitude and persona. If he would lighten up and seem to just relax and be that kid (take a lesson from Henson) and just play ball, I think he could become a phenominal talent.

But right now, he is like the Tiger Woods of college basketball, without any of the accomplishments. Tiger is hard to warm up too, but by gosh he basically dominated his sport for years, so we (the public) overlooked the distance he seemed to keep everyone at.

Barnes does not have that ability now. His brand will never become a brand unless he either loosens up and has some success or stays the way he is and dominate the sport....

Either of these options may be out of his reach...

WiJoe
03-26-2012, 07:01 PM
Kinda looks like hb, yes?

2497

Is that huck letting him fly away?

2496

Oh, what the heck; thought I'd add this one. Hiya huck!

2498

mr. synellinden
03-26-2012, 07:26 PM
Another great read from Grantland. One thing that the author does not mention, but complements his argument, is that a big factor in Barnes' decision to go to Carolina was do to his desire to "build his brand". I remember during the recruitment process that Barnes made a big deal out of the fact that UNC had a business and marketing major, while Duke does not. And then there's the whole Jordan thing, the brand of all brands. To be honest, if my #1 priority was to become a global icon, I'd probably pick Carolina over Duke too.

Yet, as the article points out, brands need to be supported by a quality product and Barnes has struggled to back up the hype. In some alternate universe, it wouldn't surprise me if Barnes actually would have been more successful as a player -- and ultimately as a brand -- had he gone to Duke. Think about it -- at Duke his freshman year he would not have been required to be "the man" right away and might not have had his confidence crushed at a critical stage. He would have picked up some toughness banging away with Singler in practice and might have learned from Nolan how to endear oneself to a fanbase. Undoubtedly, Coach K would have improved Barnes' defense and have given him a stern talking to when his level of effort wasn't there. I could be wrong, but I always got the impression that Roy could be soft with Barnes at times.

All that is to say that I think Barnes could have been a much more improved basketball player after two years at Duke than Carolina. Kind of ironic isn't it?


Yes. I thought this was the most interesting commentary in that piece:

What other basketball phenom would think himself into a pretzel and decide that the best way to promote Harrison Barnes, the brand, would be to talk about Harrison Barnes, the brand? Especially when every other super-athlete who talked openly about brands has been met with the public's wrath? Derrick Rose, the antimatter to the brand-building NBA, just signed a $200 million shoe contract. Hasn't it become clear that the way to really build your brand is to breathe basketball, win championships, and throw a couple very public shots at LeBron & Co.?

roywhite
03-26-2012, 07:47 PM
The article works if you place it in context as a response to the hagiographic Atlantic article by Chapel Hill resident Jason Zengerle that is linked in its first paragraph and featured these sorts of observations

Barnes, now a sophomore at UNC, has lived up to the hype, both on and off the court. A 6-foot-8 small forward with a silky jumper and a knack for hitting game-winning shots, he’s also widely touted as college basketball’s most cerebral star since Bill Bradley

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/04/moneyballer/8911/

The "most cerebral" comment is another area where the hype seems to far exceed the reality.

By most indications, Barnes is a good student, but did not attain All-ACC Academic teams in his first two years.
By contrast, his teammate Tyler Zeller was a 4-time All-ACC Academic honoree, and twice an Academic All-America choice.
No indication if Barnes wants to be a Rhodes Scholar like Bill Bradley, though just think what it would do for the brand.

davekay1971
03-26-2012, 07:49 PM
Is it coincidence though that his improvement as a freshman coincided with Marshall taking over the offense? He averaged 19ppg and 6.3rpg last year after Marshall became the starting PG. He averaged 17.1ppg and 5.2rpg this year with essentially the same lineup. Is that really improvement?

I noted in my post that Marshall becoming point guard was at least partly responsible for Barnes' improvement.

It's also kind of unfair to compare the stats of part of a season against the stats of an entire season. Was Barnes's sophomore season better than his freshman season? Absolutely. Of course, his sophomore season was played almost entirely with Marshall at the point, and that accounts for at least some of the improvement. But it's pretty tough to say that Barnes, himself, has made no improvement whatsoever.

We tend to really be harsh on Barnes, myself included. He's an easy target. He's a kid who clearly bought into his HS hype, who has delusions that he is destined to be the next big thing, who plays for the wrong team, and who is, to this point, nowhere near his self-hype or media-hype. Taking a step back, however, he's also a kid who's a legitimate first or second team All-ACC player in his sophomore year.

Here's another way of looking at this: as Duke fans, do we want him to come back to UNC next season or not? Do we perceive UNC as being a more formidable opponent next season with Barnes starting for the Heels or in the NBA? If Barnes is really an limited player with a stagnant game, I guess we should hope he comes back for his junior year so he can take up a spot in Roy's rotation. As far as I'm concerned, I hope he goes to the NBA. I'd rather face UNC next season without him than with him.

Newton_14
03-26-2012, 08:35 PM
Here is another interesting quote from Barnes in the Atlantic article (I would suggest reading that article to see the quotes from Barnes himself). Reading the below quote, you have to wonder how much this years Final Four location (exactly 30 years after his namesake's "shot) factored into his decision to return as a Sophomore.

Barnes quote in parenthesis
“There’s no better exposure and no better way of getting the hype machine going than UNC returning back to New Orleans, 30 years after Michael Jordan, of all people, won it there,” Barnes told me. For the first and only time, he dropped his cautious analysis and let his excitement show. “It would be an unbelievable stage,” he said, breaking into a wide smile. “And if we end up winning a national championship there? The media might just explode.” And so, ultimately, would Barnes’s bank account.

uh_no
03-26-2012, 08:41 PM
Here is another interesting quote from Barnes in the Atlantic article (I would suggest reading that article to see the quotes from Barnes himself). Reading the below quote, you have to wonder how much this years Final Four location (exactly 30 years after his namesake's "shot) factored into his decision to return as a Sophomore.

Barnes quote in parenthesis
“There’s no better exposure and no better way of getting the hype machine going than UNC returning back to New Orleans, 30 years after Michael Jordan, of all people, won it there,” Barnes told me. For the first and only time, he dropped his cautious analysis and let his excitement show. “It would be an unbelievable stage,” he said, breaking into a wide smile. “And if we end up winning a national championship there? The media might just explode.” And so, ultimately, would Barnes’s bank account.

It bothers me that he compares himself to jordan....,and he does so at EVERY opportunity...even listing himself as 2" shorter than he was for years to be the same height as him. They couldn't be more different.

For jordan, the brand came becuase he was good at basketball...he wanted to be great at basketball and the fame was a consequence....for barnes, basketball is just a vehicle to become rich and famous....the means, not the ends....and thats why he will NEVER be jordan....aside from the fact that he just isn't great

I think the article is a spot on analysis of barnes' character. My favorite barnes anecdote is still from the middle of last season...when he was having a bad year....he was talking to someone (might have been jordan) and asked "do you think I can still win national player of the year"....I can't think of anoyter person so conceited that while there team is mediocre, they're wondering whether they can still win NPOY...CERTAINLY not MJ...jordan would be wondering how he could make himself a better basketball player, and how he could help his team win the championship....not whether he would leave a legacy....the legacy came because he did all the other things.

Duke 4 Life
03-26-2012, 08:49 PM
The whole key to the matter is RW wants to run and gun, just as fast pace as possible. However, when they do get in the halfcourt, they like to feed the bigs, then send the house to crash the boards. Barnes would have been a better fit at Duke because he would have had more opportunies in the half court and a coach who specializes in the half court. A more "coached offense".

Newton_14
03-26-2012, 08:52 PM
It bothers me that he compares himself to jordan....,and he does so at EVERY opportunity...even listing himself as 2" shorter than he was for years to be the same height as him. They couldn't be more different.

For jordan, the brand came becuase he was good at basketball...he wanted to be great at basketball and the fame was a consequence....for barnes, basketball is just a vehicle to become rich and famous....the means, not the ends....and thats why he will NEVER be jordan....aside from the fact that he just isn't great

I think the article is a spot on analysis of barnes' character. My favorite barnes anecdote is still from the middle of last season...when he was having a bad year....he was talking to someone (might have been jordan) and asked "do you think I can still win national player of the year"....I can't think of anoyter person so conceited that while there team is mediocre, they're wondering whether they can still win NPOY...CERTAINLY not MJ...jordan would be wondering how he could make himself a better basketball player, and how he could help his team win the championship....not whether he would leave a legacy....the legacy came because he did all the other things.

That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

uh_no
03-26-2012, 08:56 PM
That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

Wow. Thanks for the link.

Its every bit as bad as I recalled. I just don't get what the point of worrying about that stuff is. If i focus every bit of energy at being the best I can be, the other stuff is irrelevant. Being the best player I can be will do the most to help (3) happen, and (1) and (2) are up to the fickle opinions of the sportswriters....what WONT help my team is worrying whether something is still possible

DukieTiger
03-26-2012, 09:25 PM
While I enjoy a little laugh at Barnes' expense as much as the next Dukie, and agree with the absurdity of his desire to "brand" himself, I still have to admit that I am hoping and praying that he decides to take his "brand" to the NBA. Because he is a darn good player and I would rather play UNC without him than with him. So yeah, maybe he's stiff and calculating and corny and false. And maybe he's been a disappointment based on expectations (his? ours? experts?) But I still have to pay him his due, he is a very good player.

RoyalBlue08
03-26-2012, 09:31 PM
I agree that I hope he goes pro. He is a great high school player, a very good college player, and I think he will be a role player in the NBA. UNC is certainly better with him for sure, so I hope he takes his talents and ego to the pros where they belong.

moonpie23
03-26-2012, 10:00 PM
some people ask for this...

HWNSNBM rolls in the arrogance and hype like it's his birthright.


what now pigeon?

uh_no
03-26-2012, 10:17 PM
The school that I choose to be my alma mater, indeed, the place where I will leave my legacy, had the right balance of both academics and basketball that which I thought I could achieve the goals I wanted to pursue. Today, I'm proud to announce the school I will attend in the fall of 2010 will be the coach I'm going to Skype …

If you can in ANY way feel sorry for the person who said THAT, you are a better man than I.

the place where I will leave my legacy? can you say anything more presumptuous and arrogant?

yancem
03-26-2012, 10:31 PM
I agree that I would like to see him go pro but if I'm looking at the UNC's roster and thinking who I most want to go pro, it isn't him. I'd rather see Marshall go because he's the engine that makes the team run, McAdoo because I think that he will be a monster next year and Henson because I think he is just a nasty match up problem.

As good as HB is he's a bit of a ball hog and without Marshall, he might disrupt their offensive flow. He would also contribute to the backcourt log jam. This might sound strange but remember that UNC got better as their roster was shortened because on injuries. While we all wish that K would play a deeper bench, UNC fans all wish Ol'Roy would play a shorter one. Constant substitutions can disrupt some player's flow.

So, yes HB is a good player and I would happy to see him leave, but wouldn't it be kind of nice if the other 3 left and Duke caught a couple of roster breaks in the form of MP2 returning and signing another recruit (I'm talking about you Bazz). That way we could see him to lose to Duke a couple more times and may see him sink further in the draft. A guy can dream, right?

miramar
03-27-2012, 07:25 AM
That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

The call took place on New Year's Day 2011, and for all we know Barnes was hung over and confused. Goodman clearly had his wits about him and answered the three questions with no, no, and no. The only doubt I have is why he called Barnes cerebral after such a call. I would have called him a dumbutt.

But there is another interesting part of the article which shows what a difference a year makes:

"All five starters are back, plus they will have a healthy Reggie Bullock and add one of the top freshman in the nation, forward James McAdoo.

But Barnes is the difference maker. At least he was down the stretch last season, putting up 40 points against Clemson in the Atlantic Coast Conference tournament and averaging 21 points per game in the NCAA tournament — a run that ended with a close loss to Kentucky in the Elite Eight."

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

CDu
03-27-2012, 08:05 AM
The call took place on New Year's Day 2011, and for all we know Barnes was hung over and confused. Goodman clearly had his wits about him and answered the three questions with no, no, and no. The only doubt I have is why he called Barnes cerebral after such a call. I would have called him a dumbutt.

But there is another interesting part of the article which shows what a difference a year makes:

"All five starters are back, plus they will have a healthy Reggie Bullock and add one of the top freshman in the nation, forward James McAdoo.

But Barnes is the difference maker. At least he was down the stretch last season, putting up 40 points against Clemson in the Atlantic Coast Conference tournament and averaging 21 points per game in the NCAA tournament — a run that ended with a close loss to Kentucky in the Elite Eight."

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

It's possible that it was a drunk dial, but all of his other notable quotes seem to suggest that he's really wrapped up in creating his legacy. This call would suggest the same as well. It all sort of ties nicely together (admittedly from an outside perspective).

It's really interesting that he's crafted this image of "cerebral player" and superstar when neither really seems applicable. He hasn't really developed his game (he was the same player last year once Marshall took over). He doesn't seem to make smart player plays, he isn't some academic phenom like Zeller, and he hasn't developed into a great closer.

Someone wrote that it is strange that he seems so obsessed with creating a legacy rather than becoming a great basketball player. Jordan had no legacy until he dominated. Same for Kobe. Very few players get legacies/brands without some cache behind it, and right now Barnes' cache is that he was a highly-touted recruit who talked about himself in a long-term perspective (which made him seem mature and wise).

CDu
03-27-2012, 08:15 AM
I noted in my post that Marshall becoming point guard was at least partly responsible for Barnes' improvement.

And I'm merely providing evidence to suggest that Marshall is perhaps almost entirely responsible for Barnes' improvement.


It's also kind of unfair to compare the stats of part of a season against the stats of an entire season. Was Barnes's sophomore season better than his freshman season? Absolutely. Of course, his sophomore season was played almost entirely with Marshall at the point, and that accounts for at least some of the improvement. But it's pretty tough to say that Barnes, himself, has made no improvement whatsoever.

I think it's completely fair to compare stats of part of a season against stats of an entire season when that part of a season involved such a dramatic change in personnel. I was suggesting a systematic change that has affected Barnes' production, so I presented the two time periods that included this change.

Since Marshall took over the point, Harrison Barnes has been a 1st Team/2nd Team All-ACC caliber player. Prior to that, Barnes struggled. Had Marshall been the PG from the get-go, I have little doubt that Barnes would have been at least 2nd Team All-ACC as a freshman (probably 1st Team).


We tend to really be harsh on Barnes, myself included. He's an easy target. He's a kid who clearly bought into his HS hype, who has delusions that he is destined to be the next big thing, who plays for the wrong team, and who is, to this point, nowhere near his self-hype or media-hype. Taking a step back, however, he's also a kid who's a legitimate first or second team All-ACC player in his sophomore year.

And as I said above, he has been a 1st/2nd Team All-ACC player from the moment Marshall took over the PG spot. I've seen nothing in his game this year that he didn't have last year. He was a great shooter last year (once Marshall took over) but had limited ballhandling skills. This year, it's the same thing. Becoming 1st Team All-ACC (an honor that I think should have gone to Marshall over Barnes, by the way) or 2nd Team All-ACC was merely a reflection of playing well for the whole season (which as you noted involved having Marshall set him up for an entire season rather than half a season).


Here's another way of looking at this: as Duke fans, do we want him to come back to UNC next season or not? Do we perceive UNC as being a more formidable opponent next season with Barnes starting for the Heels or in the NBA? If Barnes is really an limited player with a stagnant game, I guess we should hope he comes back for his junior year so he can take up a spot in Roy's rotation. As far as I'm concerned, I hope he goes to the NBA. I'd rather face UNC next season without him than with him.

I agree. Of course, I would have said the same thing after last season as well. That's not evidence that he's improved as a player. That's just evidence that he's a very good player, and that he's better than UNC's alternatives at his position.

Kedsy
03-27-2012, 09:17 AM
I agree that I would like to see him go pro but if I'm looking at the UNC's roster and thinking who I most want to go pro, it isn't him. I'd rather see Marshall go because he's the engine that makes the team run, McAdoo because I think that he will be a monster next year and Henson because I think he is just a nasty match up problem.

Yeah, but if the other guys go pro (especially Marshall), Barnes would have almost no choice but to join them, because without a top-flight PG feeding him, Barnes's stock would most likely drop in a rebuilding situation.

CDu
03-27-2012, 09:35 AM
Yeah, but if the other guys go pro (especially Marshall), Barnes would have almost no choice but to join them, because without a top-flight PG feeding him, Barnes's stock would most likely drop in a rebuilding situation.

Unless he actually decides to make dramatic improvements in his game this offseason. It's possible that he could really expand his skillset and showcase it with the other guys gone. Not likely, but possible.

I'd be just fine if Marshall and Henson left and Barnes and McAdoo returned. UNC would be a lot less scary to me in that situation, because it would put a lot of pressure on those two guys (and Strickland and McDonald) to realize their potential.

devilsadvocate85
03-27-2012, 09:59 AM
Unless he actually decides to make dramatic improvements in his game this offseason. It's possible that he could really expand his skillset and showcase it with the other guys gone. Not likely, but possible.

I'd be just fine if Marshall and Henson left and Barnes and McAdoo returned. UNC would be a lot less scary to me in that situation, because it would put a lot of pressure on those two guys (and Strickland and McDonald) to realize their potential.


Even if it strengthens one of our opponents/rivals, I tend to think about this question based on how much I enjoy seeing really good college basketball players play the game at the college level. For example, even though I knew it was going to make life miserable for Duke twice a year, I was thrilled when Tim Duncan stayed at Wake for 4 years. I got to see him play in person a few more times. As talented as Harrison Barnes seems to be, I actually find him incredibly frustrating to watch as a basketball fan, and frankly don't like his attitude, demeanor or effort. I see him putting up numbers, significantly because of the talent he plays with, but I never got the perception that other teams (Duke included) put any extra emphasis on stopping Barnes. No one played a box and one against him. He was a difference maker for a few games late last season. In my opinion he was the fourth best player on his team this year and had the second best season of players from his high school team. A national player of the year candidate? He wasn't even in the conversation for conference player of the year. Stay or go, unless he changes his stripes, I won't enjoy watching him play at UNC or in the NBA.

CDu
03-27-2012, 10:03 AM
Even if it strengthens one of our opponents/rivals, I tend to think about this question based on how much I enjoy seeing really good college basketball players play the game at the college level. For example, even though I knew it was going to make life miserable for Duke twice a year, I was thrilled when Tim Duncan stayed at Wake for 4 years. I got to see him play in person a few more times. As talented as Harrison Barnes seems to be, I actually find him incredibly frustrating to watch as a basketball fan, and frankly don't like his attitude, demeanor or effort. I see him putting up numbers, significantly because of the talent he plays with, but I never got the perception that other teams (Duke included) put any extra emphasis on stopping Barnes. No one played a box and one against him. He was a difference maker for a few games late last season. In my opinion he was the fourth best player on his team this year and had the second best season of players from his high school team. A national player of the year candidate? He wasn't even in the conversation for conference player of the year. Stay or go, unless he changes his stripes, I won't enjoy watching him play at UNC or in the NBA.

To be fair, Kansas did play a triangle and 2 to guard Barnes and Hairston/Bullock while leaving the other 3 to protect the paint. But aside from that, I agree. He has not been a transcendent player at the college level, and has displayed a kind of aloof attitude that doesn't mesh with the level of performance he's given on the court. He's a terrific player for sure. It's just that he's been more style than substance to this point.

yancem
03-27-2012, 10:20 AM
Yeah, but if the other guys go pro (especially Marshall), Barnes would have almost no choice but to join them, because without a top-flight PG feeding him, Barnes's stock would most likely drop in a rebuilding situation.

If I were him, I would agree with you but I don't think that either of us has his ego. He just might think that he is the best player on the team and with the others gone he can take the keys to the car and show everyone how truly great he is. Realistically, he's already turned down being a lottery pick once already and I think that it is unlikely he does it again. I would be happy to see him leave, I'm just saying that his departure is not at the top of my wish list.

roywhite
03-27-2012, 10:23 AM
To be fair, Kansas did play a triangle and 2 to guard Barnes and Hairston/Bullock while leaving the other 3 to protect the paint. But aside from that, I agree. He has not been a transcendent player at the college level, and has displayed a kind of aloof attitude that doesn't mesh with the level of performance he's given on the court. He's a terrific player for sure. It's just that he's been more style than substance to this point.

Well, just to put in my view....a few points

1. It's not clear to me that he is a "terrific player"; he is IMO a good player and a dangerous player who can score in bunches, but lacks some other elements
2. His demeanor and attitude are puzzling, a bit different
3. There's a major gap between the hype that surrounded HB (which Barnes himself certainly promoted) and his performance.

I'm not sure what to expect next from Barnes; he may declare for the draft, or he may not.
He may make significant improvements to his game, or he may not. I'm pretty well convinced that Barnes does not have a high ceiling (NBA All-Star for example) but could be good.

Kedsy
03-27-2012, 10:32 AM
To be fair, Kansas did play a triangle and 2 to guard Barnes and Hairston/Bullock while leaving the other 3 to protect the paint. But aside from that, I agree. He has not been a transcendent player at the college level, and has displayed a kind of aloof attitude that doesn't mesh with the level of performance he's given on the court. He's a terrific player for sure. It's just that he's been more style than substance to this point.

True, but they were respecting his shot, not necessarily his game. I don't think anybody would argue that Hairston or Bullock are good enough players to be the focus of a junk defense. Sometimes the triangle and two is designed to stop the "two," but in this case it was designed to stop the interior and just to make sure the outside guys didn't get wide open looks. Basically, Kansas could play the triangle and two because they didn't care if White/Watts took outside shots, so why not put an extra defender in the paint to help stop Zeller and Henson.

hurleyfor3
03-27-2012, 10:55 AM
He got branded. Clap, clap, clapclapclap.

oldnavy
03-27-2012, 11:09 AM
I really think McAdoo will be "the dude" next year if he comes back.

roywhite
03-27-2012, 11:29 AM
I really think McAdoo will be "the dude" next year if he comes back.

Actually, I expect that Barnes would be happy to see McAdoo and Marhsall come back, and might influence HB to go for another year on the Hill.
Takes the pressure off him and gives him space in the defense for shot opportunities; we know how he likes shot opportunities.

CDu
03-27-2012, 11:44 AM
Well, just to put in my view....a few points

1. It's not clear to me that he is a "terrific player"; he is IMO a good player and a dangerous player who can score in bunches, but lacks some other elements
2. His demeanor and attitude are puzzling, a bit different
3. There's a major gap between the hype that surrounded HB (which Barnes himself certainly promoted) and his performance.

I'm not sure what to expect next from Barnes; he may declare for the draft, or he may not.
He may make significant improvements to his game, or he may not. I'm pretty well convinced that Barnes does not have a high ceiling (NBA All-Star for example) but could be good.


True, but they were respecting his shot, not necessarily his game. I don't think anybody would argue that Hairston or Bullock are good enough players to be the focus of a junk defense. Sometimes the triangle and two is designed to stop the "two," but in this case it was designed to stop the interior and just to make sure the outside guys didn't get wide open looks. Basically, Kansas could play the triangle and two because they didn't care if White/Watts took outside shots, so why not put an extra defender in the paint to help stop Zeller and Henson.

Totally agree with both of these posts. I didn't mean to overstate Barnes' abilities, though in reading my post I can certainly see how that came across as such. He's terrific at one thing: shooting. And even then, he's only really terrific at open set shots, with the occasional ability to hit mid-range shots off the dribble.

ChicagoHeel
03-27-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't really buy the whole argument that Barnes needs Marshall to be effective or that Marshall's absence is the explanation for Barnes' struggles. I also disagree that he failed to improve this year.

I'm too lazy to look up stats at the moment, but I think it's worth noting the obvious point that Marshall makes everyone better; most of our numbers dropped when Marshall was off the court, so there is not that much unique about Barnes in that regard. Yes, Barnes improved dramatically when Marshall took over from LDII, but some/ much of that was a function of getting accustomed to the college game.

More to the point, Barnes started slumping toward the end of this season, well before Marshall went out. I can't remember a 20-point game in the last few weeks of the season, except the ACC final. At one point about halfway through the season, he was in the high-40s in terms of overall shooting percentage and mid 40s for 3P%. He probably finished in the mid-40s and mid-30s respectively. For whatever reason, he lost his outside touch. It happens, shooters go through slumps. This one was particularly ill-timed, but a shooting slump is hardly uncommon. I felt like I watched him miss a million wide-open threes in the last quarter of the season.

He definitely improved his ability to drive to the basket this season, as evidenced by his increase in foul shot attempts. But once his outside touch left him, he had a little more trouble in that aspect of his game too. In part, this was because his first step is not that quick and once he was less of a threat to take a one-dribble pull up, defenders could play him to prevent the drive. I also think it was part a loss of confidence. It seemed so obvious that he was pressing the last few weeks, which is what happens to most players who loses his or her touch. Few players who are first and foremost shooters can keep a shooting slump from affecting other parts of the game.

I agree with some of the criticism of Barnes' personality, i.e. that he is too self-conscious of his brand, that he appears robotic and has trouble just letting the game come to him. And I fear that has taken some of the fun out of the game for him. But much of the criticism I find over the top and off putting. Absent the tremendous expectations that surround him, which admittedly he helped create, we would be more likely to focus on his impressive feat of having led our team in scoring two years in a row. How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?

nocilla
03-27-2012, 11:56 AM
How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?

Only the ones that are preseason All-American two years in a row.

davekay1971
03-27-2012, 12:10 PM
Marshall took over the point, Harrison Barnes has been a 1st Team/2nd Team All-ACC caliber player. Prior to that, Barnes struggled. Had Marshall been the PG from the get-go, I have little doubt that Barnes would have been at least 2nd Team All-ACC as a freshman (probably 1st Team).

Agreed and, FWIW, I agree that Marshall's impact on Barnes's performance has been huge. I also agree completely that Marshall should have been 1st team All-ACC and Barnes 2nd team. I stop a little short of making the assertion that Barnes's improvement has been "almost entirely" due to Marshall...it would be hard to prove that assertion, unless Marshall goes pro and Barnes does not, and Barnes regresses to his pre-Marshall performance level (toward this argument, I wouldn't make too much out of Barnes's NCAA tournament performance - it's hard on any player to adjust to a new PG for a 4 game span and a drop in numbers may represent a struggle with adjusting to the new passer rather than the actual limits of the player.)

But I think we're actually in agreement that Marshall has made Barnes look a whole lot better than Barnes would look wthout him.

UrinalCake
03-27-2012, 01:13 PM
In some alternate universe, it wouldn't surprise me if Barnes actually would have been more successful as a player -- and ultimately as a brand -- had he gone to Duke.

As I've watched Austin's development this year I've thought a lot about how it compares to Barnes's last year. Both struggled early on after coming in with a lot of hype. Both were expected to be leaders of their teams as freshmen and had to balance how to lead without playing selfishly. While both players improved over the course of the year, I feel like Rivers has become a much better player, improving on all aspects of his game and continuing to work hard. When he wasn't bringing it during the season, Coach K wasn't afraid to bench him, and he responded well. Coach K wasn't intimidated by his father's stature. Conversely, Barnes seems like mostly the same player even after an additional year - great shooter, uses his height well to shoot over smaller defenders, is ok at most other things but no other skills really stand out.

I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.

CDu
03-27-2012, 01:21 PM
As I've watched Austin's development this year I've thought a lot about how it compares to Barnes's last year. Both struggled early on after coming in with a lot of hype. Both were expected to be leaders of their teams as freshmen and had to balance how to lead without playing selfishly. While both players improved over the course of the year, I feel like Rivers has become a much better player, improving on all aspects of his game and continuing to work hard. When he wasn't bringing it during the season, Coach K wasn't afraid to bench him, and he responded well. Coach K wasn't intimidated by his father's stature. Conversely, Barnes seems like mostly the same player even after an additional year - great shooter, uses his height well to shoot over smaller defenders, is ok at most other things but no other skills really stand out.

I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.

I think the decision by Barnes was always to chase Jordan's legacy. He seems to repeatedly reference Jordan. It's understandable. In hindsight don't think there was ever a chance we were going to get him. It's just kind of surprising that it wasn't more obvious early on (mother's obsession with Jordan, middle name includes Jordan).

I don't think the fact that Singler would play in front of him as a freshman helped even if Duke was legitimately in the running. At UNC, he'd be handed the SF reigns right away. I'm sure that only solidified things.

I won't speculate as to which program would have better prepared him. Both coaches have put quite a lot of talent in the NBA over the years. I think the biggest thing would have been up to Barnes in either case. Maybe he'd have prepared differently at Duke, maybe not. It's just too hard to say.

Kedsy
03-27-2012, 01:50 PM
I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.

Well, I'm not sure how much the addition of HB would have helped this year's Duke team. Obviously he would have played for us, and been a quality scorer, but he seems sort of redundant. Barnes is a great shooter with questionable handle who seems not to always bring it on defense. Sound familiar? Yes, I know he has more size than our other SF options, but other than that what would he give us that we couldn't get from our other shooters?

MChambers
03-27-2012, 01:56 PM
Well, I'm not sure how much the addition of HB would have helped this year's Duke team. Obviously he would have played for us, and been a quality scorer, but he seems sort of redundant. Barnes is a great shooter with questionable handle who seems not to always bring it on defense. Sound familiar? Yes, I know he has more size than our other SF options, but other than that what would he give us that we couldn't get from our other shooters?
He's a decent rebounder, better than our other SF options. Also, maybe Coach K could have gotten more defense out of him. In any event, his defense would have improved just from having to try to cover Rivers!

oldnavy
03-27-2012, 03:15 PM
I don't really buy the whole argument that Barnes needs Marshall to be effective or that Marshall's absence is the explanation for Barnes' struggles. I also disagree that he failed to improve this year.

I'm too lazy to look up stats at the moment, but I think it's worth noting the obvious point that Marshall makes everyone better; most of our numbers dropped when Marshall was off the court, so there is not that much unique about Barnes in that regard. Yes, Barnes improved dramatically when Marshall took over from LDII, but some/ much of that was a function of getting accustomed to the college game.

More to the point, Barnes started slumping toward the end of this season, well before Marshall went out. I can't remember a 20-point game in the last few weeks of the season, except the ACC final. At one point about halfway through the season, he was in the high-40s in terms of overall shooting percentage and mid 40s for 3P%. He probably finished in the mid-40s and mid-30s respectively. For whatever reason, he lost his outside touch. It happens, shooters go through slumps. This one was particularly ill-timed, but a shooting slump is hardly uncommon. I felt like I watched him miss a million wide-open threes in the last quarter of the season.

He definitely improved his ability to drive to the basket this season, as evidenced by his increase in foul shot attempts. But once his outside touch left him, he had a little more trouble in that aspect of his game too. In part, this was because his first step is not that quick and once he was less of a threat to take a one-dribble pull up, defenders could play him to prevent the drive. I also think it was part a loss of confidence. It seemed so obvious that he was pressing the last few weeks, which is what happens to most players who loses his or her touch. Few players who are first and foremost shooters can keep a shooting slump from affecting other parts of the game.

I agree with some of the criticism of Barnes' personality, i.e. that he is too self-conscious of his brand, that he appears robotic and has trouble just letting the game come to him. And I fear that has taken some of the fun out of the game for him. But much of the criticism I find over the top and off putting. Absent the tremendous expectations that surround him, which admittedly he helped create, we would be more likely to focus on his impressive feat of having led our team in scoring two years in a row. How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?

I hear you and if it were not for the way Barnes handles himself, I too would be put off by the critics. But how many kids half-way through their freshman year are calling up a reporter to ask about their status as all american or NPOY???

Lots of kids come in over-hyped, which is not their fault, but not all of them buy into like Barnes has...

CDu
03-27-2012, 03:19 PM
Well, I'm not sure how much the addition of HB would have helped this year's Duke team. Obviously he would have played for us, and been a quality scorer, but he seems sort of redundant. Barnes is a great shooter with questionable handle who seems not to always bring it on defense. Sound familiar? Yes, I know he has more size than our other SF options, but other than that what would he give us that we couldn't get from our other shooters?

Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.

Faison1
03-27-2012, 03:28 PM
I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.

That's so funny. I just emailed a UNC friend/fan that I thought Barnes would have been much better off at Duke. As much as I despise the guy, our offense is more geared for his style of play vs. what they currently offer at UNC.

Plus all the intangibles, like arrogance, self-righteousness, etc. It would have fit the narrative so much better.

Duvall
03-27-2012, 03:31 PM
Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.

And Duke never would have had to worry about him going an entire game without taking a shot.

moonpie23
03-27-2012, 03:48 PM
i think that HWNSNBM would not only have thrived at duke, he'd be a better player and his ego might have been "refined" to reflect his abilities and accomplishments, rather than his wants and desires...

Faison1
03-27-2012, 03:56 PM
i think that HWNSNBM would not only have thrived at duke, he'd be a better player and his ego might have been "refined" to reflect his abilities and accomplishments, rather than his wants and desires...

You know, the more I think about it, this could really work in our favor with regards to recruiting.

Kedsy
03-27-2012, 04:38 PM
Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.

Well, I agree he's a much better player than Andre (although I don't think Andre is the only player at Duke whose skillset is somewhat redundant with Barnes's). But I don't know if the upgrade would have made too much of a difference in our overall team dynamic. We still would have been reliant on the three-point shot, our defense would still be poor by Duke standards, we still would have had only one player who could get his own shot, etc.

ncexnyc
03-27-2012, 05:13 PM
Well, I agree he's a much better player than Andre (although I don't think Andre is the only player at Duke whose skillset is somewhat redundant with Barnes's). But I don't know if the upgrade would have made too much of a difference in our overall team dynamic. We still would have been reliant on the three-point shot, our defense would still be poor by Duke standards, we still would have had only one player who could get his own shot, etc.
HB would have been an excellent addition to our team last year. Considering we never really had a SF, that's one position that would have been cemented from the get go. Let's remember how many different line-ups we ran out on the court looking for something that would work.

HB would definitely have helped with rebounding. I know he gets docked for this at UNC, but let's be honest, exactly how many rebounds do you expect to be leftover for HB when you've got Zeller and Henson patroling the paint.

As for HB's defense, I'm not sure why people are so down on him. I seem to recall he played Kyle fairly even last year. Is he a defensive stopper? No, but he was clearly better than anything we could put on the court.

gumbomoop
03-27-2012, 05:25 PM
I agree with some of the criticism of Barnes' personality, i.e. that he is too self-conscious of his brand, that he appears robotic and has trouble just letting the game come to him. And I fear that has taken some of the fun out of the game for him. But much of the criticism I find over the top and off putting. Absent the tremendous expectations that surround him, which admittedly he helped create, we would be more likely to focus on his impressive feat of having led our team in scoring two years in a row. How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?

Like others, I have been fascinated by the Barnes story, his strengths and weaknesses on the court, and his personality. It's the last - his personality - that I want to comment on here. It's complicated - both his personality and my response. Had he chosen to attend Duke, and had he behaved exactly the way he has behaved as a UNC guy, I think I'd be very uncomfortable; and I fear my response would be, let's say, hedged.

Thus, I appreciate ChicageHeel's admission re the flaws in Barnes's personality, and think his post properly raises the delicate issue of whether some of the criticism is unbecoming. I suspect the essential element to the argument that we should ease up a bit on a someone so young is complicated by the fact that Barnes has for several years sought, consciously and itself in something of an off-putting way, to present himself as unusually mature and cerebral.

Having myself had some experience with college students, every once in awhile I was faced with someone like Barnes: a young person who clearly had wowed the adults in his life, including teachers and administrators in high school, but who was her/his [usually his] own worst enemy. HB's very unfortunate announcement statement....

"The school that I choose to be my alma mater, indeed, the place where I will leave my legacy, had the right balance of both academics and basketball that which I thought I could achieve the goals I wanted to pursue. Today, I'm proud to announce the school I will attend in the fall of 2010 will be the coach I'm going to Skype...."

.... just makes me cringe. It's so overwrought with drama and faux-sophistication that it reads like ... what it is: Harrison's [with or without incompetent PR-help] ego out of control, in words and sort-of-but-not-quite-sentences that don't parse. The syntax is disastrous. The most obvious example is the juxtaposition of the words, "that which." Those words do occasionally parse - as in "I hope Duke does that which leads to exciting, winning basketball." But in Harrison's purple prose, "that" and "which" are redundant, and screw up the rest of the sentence, to boot. That is, even if he had dropped either "that" or "which," the sentence still wouldn't parse. Not even close.

Why berate him for this? [Actually, I hope I'm berating someone who "helped" him write this stuff.] To highlight the fact that Barnes had up to that point in his undoubtedly strong academic life never been given some good advice; or if given it, hadn't accepted it. The advice would have been to tell him that if you're going so consciously and deliberately to present yourself as special, seeking a "legacy," for heaven's sake, you're going to come across to some nice adults as an insufferable snob, and probably not too far down the road. Maybe - depending on Barnes's humility - this: "Harrison, you know I love you, so I'm going to tell you the truth, and you better listen. Your admirable confidence is perilously close to off-putting overconfidence. You really - wake up, now, Harrison, really - need to pay attention to this issue, and observe adults who cross that line, so as to know how to avoid it."

In my own contact with a few such students, precocious to an extent that it was not only irritating but harmful to the young person's own personality and character development, I myself sometimes struggled. It wasn't easy to "confront" a confident young person with so many strengths but a glaring weakness. Sometimes I did it and it worked. Other times, it was no go. In a couple of cases, it just felt so awkward that I didn't even try. In such an extreme case as that of Barnes, I'd really like to know whether any adult had ever counseled him to cool it. The ego-momentum of Harrison Barnes would not have been easy to derail.

I intend here more to empathize with than to blame Barnes's adult advisers and confidants. Heaven knows he's in so many ways an admirable young man. But - and this is obvious - not in all ways. And I do wonder whether he will ever understand that. It would - will - take a trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult to challenge Harrison's understanding of his place in the world.

Kdogg
03-27-2012, 05:50 PM
Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.

Well one has contributed to two ACC championships and a National Championship. The other is Harrison Barnes.

duke09hms
03-27-2012, 06:04 PM
Well one has contributed to two ACC championships and a National Championship. The other is Harrison Barnes.

Sure, therefore Jordan Davidson is better than Harrison Barnes.

We sure coulda used a great small forward this year.

Duvall
03-27-2012, 06:04 PM
Sure, therefore Jordan Davidson is better than Harrison Barnes.

We sure coulda used a great small forward this year.

Or, failing that, Duke would have settled for Harrison Barnes.

El_Diablo
03-27-2012, 06:09 PM
It's pretty silly to say "Oh, Barnes only improved and/or played well because of Marshall."

First, one could easily say that Barnes was hindered in the absence of a good PG, and only began to tap his potential when he had legitimate D-I players running the point. After all, in those pre- and post-Marshall games, the entire team had an albatross hanging around its neck (Larry WithDrew) and then a 1-star backup freshman guard. The offense was clearly suboptimal in both instances.

Second, regardless of the first point, what is Barnes more likely to see as a PG teammate in the NBA? Someone similar to Marshall, or someone similar to Drew/White? Since it's clearly the former, I don't see how one should discount Barnes' play in any way because he "only played well when he had a good PG"...because he's going to play with a similarly good PG every night if/when he goes to the NBA.

Third, I just think people are putting too much focus on how Barnes played in the last two games. He shot 44% for the season, and he basically hit a little shooting slump at the end. But shooters have slumps. Curry was shooting like 22% for parts of January/February. Redick was 3-18 against LSU in his final game. It happens, especially against good perimeter-defensive teams like Ohio.

Barnes is a very good player, especially considering he's just a sophomore. His personality is fully deserving of ridicule, but let's not go overboard in downplaying his game by crediting someone else for his positives. He is still a good NBA prospect and will get drafted in the lottery if he decides to leave now.

roywhite
03-27-2012, 06:14 PM
I intend here more to empathize with than to blame Barnes's adult advisers and confidants. Heaven knows he's in so many ways an admirable young man. But - and this is obvious - not in all ways. And I do wonder whether he will ever understand that. It would - will - take a trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult to challenge Harrison's understanding of his place in the world.

Very interesting observations.

He was in need of the counsel of a "trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult"?
Not many fit that bill. One who certainly could have was Mike Krzyzewski.
I wonder if Harrison understands that irony.

Billy Dat
03-27-2012, 07:12 PM
What other basketball phenom would think himself into a pretzel and decide that the best way to promote Harrison Barnes, the brand, would be to talk about Harrison Barnes, the brand? Especially when every other super-athlete who talked openly about brands has been met with the public's wrath? Derrick Rose, the antimatter to the brand-building NBA, just signed a $200 million shoe contract. Hasn't it become clear that the way to really build your brand is to breathe basketball, win championships[/B]

THIS!


Here is another interesting quote from Barnes in the Atlantic article (I would suggest reading that article to see the quotes from Barnes himself). Reading the below quote, you have to wonder how much this years Final Four location (exactly 30 years after his namesake's "shot) factored into his decision to return as a Sophomore.

Barnes quote in parenthesis
“There’s no better exposure and no better way of getting the hype machine going than UNC returning back to New Orleans, 30 years after Michael Jordan, of all people, won it there,” Barnes told me. For the first and only time, he dropped his cautious analysis and let his excitement show. “It would be an unbelievable stage,” he said, breaking into a wide smile. “And if we end up winning a national championship there? The media might just explode.” And so, ultimately, would Barnes’s bank account.

THIS!


That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

THIS!


what now pigeon?

AND THIS!

Maybe it's because I watched that Skype fiasco, but this kid gets under my skin like no other Tar Heel. He is such a tool. You know what I think it is? His annoying characteristics such as buying into his own hype, being more style than substance, having a huge a sense of entitlement and, ultimately, his pretty boy lameness reminds me of the most annoying people I knew at Duke! Thank god he didn't go to Duke.

yancem
03-27-2012, 07:54 PM
I intend here more to empathize with than to blame Barnes's adult advisers and confidants. Heaven knows he's in so many ways an admirable young man. But - and this is obvious - not in all ways. And I do wonder whether he will ever understand that. It would - will - take a trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult to challenge Harrison's understanding of his place in the world.

I have had a lot of experience with younger kids (ages 7-12) and a fair amount with teenagers. It is my experience that it is much easier to address these types of ego issues before they hit high school. Truthfully it is something that the parents should be addressing as early as elementary school. It is never too early to teach humility which should never be confused with sportsmanship, the two don't always overlap.

moonpie23
03-27-2012, 08:05 PM
It is never too early to teach humility

draft day, and the training camp......

Wheat/"/"/"
03-27-2012, 08:19 PM
HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.

duke09hms
03-27-2012, 08:26 PM
HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.

Very true. A lot of us are just bitter he chose UNC over Duke.
That the kid is a great small forward who played senior Kyle Singler to a draw as a freshman and would have filled a glaring need on this year's team only serves to annoy us even more.

bdeviled11
03-27-2012, 08:31 PM
HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.

That is a very reasonable and realistic response. I kind of wonder how the media narrative would have been had he traveled the road of a Royce White. Unfortunately, the media narrative gets in the way of the truth far too often.

moonpie23
03-27-2012, 08:32 PM
negative wheat.....no.....never in a million years....

the arrogance displayed by this guy BEGS for laser-burning scrutiny and criticism......his entire persona is so self-gratifying, it sickens me.

i've said this before, and y'all can all pile on me again and take my sporks, but i STILL think it was a setup from the start, and if it wasn't from the start, it definitely was from the time roy waited outside his house while K was inside. I really WANTED him at duke, but now that i see through the facade, i'm so glad we dodged that bullet...

the ONLY good thing attached to that guy's LIFE so far is the fact that our coach actually tried to recruit him. My avatar says it all about who that guy REALLY is....

duke09hms
03-27-2012, 08:46 PM
negative wheat.....no.....never in a million years....

the arrogance displayed by this guy BEGS for laser-burning scrutiny and criticism......his entire persona is so self-gratifying, it sickens me.

i've said this before, and y'all can all pile on me again and take my sporks, but i STILL think it was a setup from the start, and if it wasn't from the start, it definitely was from the time roy waited outside his house while K was inside. I really WANTED him at duke, but now that i see through the facade, i'm so glad we dodged that bullet...

the ONLY good thing attached to that guy's LIFE so far is the fact that our coach actually tried to recruit him. My avatar says it all about who that guy REALLY is....

dude relax, the kid is 19.

and about your avatar - looks like a guy sad that his team lost. As one would expect.

WiJoe
03-27-2012, 08:48 PM
The pigeon deserves EVERY criticism he gets. And wait till next year, where he's there or not.

There's another one coming.

NashvilleDevil
03-27-2012, 08:51 PM
The pigeon deserves EVERY criticism he gets. And wait till next year, where he's there or not.

There's another one coming.

Who's that?

WiJoe
03-27-2012, 09:02 PM
Who's that?

Jean-Pierre Tokoto

http://www.sbnation.com/high-school-basketball-march-madness/2011/3/4/2029128/jp-tokoto-north-carolina-wisconsin

http://www.menomoneefallsnow.com/sports/tokotoera-at-falls-comes-to-an-end-with-an-encouraging-1410-mark-j04gmd2-142205025.html

juise
03-27-2012, 10:11 PM
Jean-Pierre Tokoto

http://www.sbnation.com/high-school-basketball-march-madness/2011/3/4/2029128/jp-tokoto-north-carolina-wisconsin

http://www.menomoneefallsnow.com/sports/tokotoera-at-falls-comes-to-an-end-with-an-encouraging-1410-mark-j04gmd2-142205025.html

I'm confused about the message those links are intended to convey. The first is just Tokoto saying that Carolina felt like home and the second describes Tokoto as not considering himself better than anyone else on the team. It's not like he's the #1 player in the class and McDonald's AA. I don't think he's the second-coming of HB... whatever that may mean.

Starter
03-27-2012, 10:24 PM
HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.

I think these are reasonable ideas. However, you're not always dealing with reasonable people, especially when it comes to a college basketball rivalry. And like it or not, Barnes opened himself up to this sort of ridicule with all the brand stuff. Barnes didn't want us to let him find his way; rather, he wanted to create his own lane. Whether he completely deserved that ridicule or not is another more complicated story, but it's not stunning it worked out like this when he couldn't live up to outgrown expectations that he himself had a large hand in creating. Not to mention, you'd be hard-pressed to get the average Duke fan not to resent Barnes if nothing else because of the execution of his announcement. In large part due to that, I've never particularly liked Barnes, and I've never felt too bad about that either. You can't like everybody. And I'm actually not convinced I'd have liked him even if he'd skyped Krzyzewski. I haven't liked every player on Duke's teams, including ones I've known personally, that's for sure. And I remember thinking his announcement was weird even before he named what school he was going to.

For what it's worth, here's (http://dimemag.com/2012/03/the-reinvention-of-harrison-barnes/) my take on the situation for Dime.

magjayran
03-27-2012, 10:42 PM
I don't like this article because it implies that he is done at UNC. As far as we know, he isn't. If he comes back he will play at a high level and be a match-up nightmare for Duke. If he comes back UNC has a chance at a Final 4 and a National Title. I'm not willing to bury the kid yet because I don't want all the proclamations of "bust" to come back and bite us.

uh_no
03-27-2012, 10:49 PM
I don't like this article because it implies that he is done at UNC. As far as we know, he isn't. If he comes back he will play at a high level and be a match-up nightmare for Duke. If he comes back UNC has a chance at a Final 4 and a National Title. I'm not willing to bury the kid yet because I don't want all the proclamations of "bust" to come back and bite us.

And what evidence of that do we have? two straight years he has come up woefully short of expectations. He's can be good, but only when he wants to...and his game does not seem to have improved significantly from the latter half of last season through this season. I'm not sure why we would expect it to jump next year...especially with the rest of his team likely fleeing to the NBA...

moonpie23
03-27-2012, 11:13 PM
it's not like he's gonna turn into Zoubek or something...

Wheat/"/"/"
03-28-2012, 05:34 AM
On the Skype thing...

I guess I didn't see it all as that big a deal.

Yes it was a little over the top. But I see #1 Shabazz has set his press conference soon. It will be a big deal too. Duke's in the running, and could come out of it feeling high or low. Shabazz is creating the same sort of drama. It's what #1 HS recruits do.

Skype was relatively new at the time HB used it to announce. Maybe He just thought it'd be cool, not realizing that one fan base would take it as such a slap in the face?

I can say from my perspective that if the Skype had gone to Duke, I would have been bummed, but no more disappointed than i was when UNC lost Jason Williams to Duke.

davekay1971
03-28-2012, 06:47 AM
On the Skype thing...

I guess I didn't see it all as that big a deal.

Yes it was a little over the top. But I see #1 Shabazz has set his press conference soon. It will be a big deal too. Duke's in the running, and could come out of it feeling high or low. Shabazz is creating the same sort of drama. It's what #1 HS recruits do.

Skype was relatively new at the time HB used it to announce. Maybe He just thought it'd be cool, not realizing that one fan base would take it as such a slap in the face?

I can say from my perspective that if the Skype had gone to Duke, I would have been bummed, but no more disappointed than i was when UNC lost Jason Williams to Duke.

I frequently try to figure out all the causes for the particular venom my fellow Duke fans have for HB (on this Carolina team I have much more loathing for Henson because of his on-court antics).

I think the Skype issue isn't so much the fact that he used Skype as it was the incredibly crafted nature of the announcement. His wording - emphasizing the academic excellence of the institution, was obviously carefully selected to make it impossible to tell if he was talking about Duke or UNC (and, to Duke ears, probably sounded very much like he was talking about Duke) until the drum roll ended. In addition, his talk about leaving his "legacy", before he had done anything at all at the college level, was absolutely arrogant.

Of course, if Coach K's face had popped up on screen, all of that would have been forgiven, although I honestly would be cringing as a Duke fan if a Duke recruit had made such a self-hyping, arrogant statement. Undoubtedly some have, but I am blissfully unaware.

I think there's also the feeling that he led Duke on. We're pretty proud of, and protective of, our coach, who we perceive to be a man with absolute honesty and integrity. The idea that some self-absorbed high schooler (and I don't mean that to be as harsh as it sounds - plenty of high schoolers, including me when I was in high school - are self absorbed) fed our coach a line of bs and pretended he was coming to Duke when he wasn't, definitely sticks in our collective craw. I didn't follow the HB recruitment that closely, but those who did seem pretty convinced he played us in a way that isn't at all typical for a recruit, even a top one.

Finally, inescapably, there's the fact that he chose our rival over us. Now, that happens quite often. More knowledgeable minds can cite several examples of Duke and UNC targeting the same recruit, and the recruit choosing one over the other. It's not the sole cause of the anti-Barnes venom, but it's a factor.

Personally, I kind of wish we'd calm down about it a little. On Skype-day he acted like an arrogant, immature kid who thought he was the center of the world. Since then he's done several things that reinforce the notion that he's got an exaggerated sense of self. Fine, I'm glad he's not a Duke player if he's going to act like that, but it's pretty forgivable given his age and the context that he's probably spent the last 6 years of his life being told by friends, family, college coaches, and the media that he's the Next Great Thing. I will admit, however, that I do like picking on Barnes as much as the next guy for his rampant self-promotion (I believe I may have actually been the first guy on DBR to use the nickname "The Black Pigeon", and, if so, I am deeply proud of the way it's stuck).

I'm also glad, as a ABC fan, that he hasn't turned into the next Jordan - I wasn't an ABCer when Jordan played for Carolina, but I can only imagine the pain I would have right now watching someone that good, and that clutch, playing in the pastel blue, especially without Dean to keep him under 20 points per game.

Ian
03-28-2012, 07:06 AM
It's not the Skype as much as that even when most high schoolers have press conferences, they don't make the coaches wait until the press conference to find out. What usually happens is that they call the coaches who have recruited them ahead of the press conference and tell them in person that they have decided to go in another direction and thank them for being recruited, as common curtsey. Not only did HB not do this, as far as I know he never called the Duke staff even after he announced the decision, and that lack of respect is really what rub people the wrong way. Losing a recruit to UNC is always tough. But what makes Duke fans resent HB is the way he did it. I mean Duke lost plenty of high profile recruits to UNC over the years, there is a reason why we aren't bashing on Brendan Wright the way we bash HB.

miramar
03-28-2012, 07:38 AM
I think the Skype issue isn't so much the fact that he used Skype as it was the incredibly crafted nature of the announcement.

I think there's also the feeling that he led Duke on. We're pretty proud of, and protective of, our coach, who we perceive to be a man with absolute honesty and integrity. The idea that some self-absorbed high schooler (and I don't mean that to be as harsh as it sounds - plenty of high schoolers, including me when I was in high school - are self absorbed) fed our coach a line of bs and pretended he was coming to Duke when he wasn't, definitely sticks in our collective craw.

I don't hate the kid and I'm certainly not indignant since it's a free country, but there's no question about the entire process being incredibly crafted. I wrote at the time that the whole thing seemed like a product launch, and here we are three years later and he is (and we are) talking about the brand. Maybe it's me, but there's more Kardashian than Jordan to this product.

As far as leading Duke on, I would say that's nothing compared to UCLA and Iowa IIRC. Those two schools had no chance as far as I can tell, but they were still in the mix so that he could garner more interest on the west coast and closer to home.

Finally, is there really a photo of him wearing a UNC shirt with Coach Roy the day of the (double) home visit or is that an urban legend? People were saying that he had his mind made up ahead of time, which is probably true, but I guess there is nothing like a little suspense to keep people tuned in to your reality show.

moonpie23
03-28-2012, 07:44 AM
We're pretty proud of, and protective of, our coach, who we perceive to be a man with absolute honesty and integrity. .

THANK YOU!!!


it wasn't the skype, in fact, when said he was going to skype, i thought that was pretty cool. I wasn't feeling to good about his little speech, but i thought it was a cool "youthfull" thing to do....

then i found out how he'd treated K and the staff.....

end of story......str8 on the HATE list......not the dislike list, not the regular old rival list.......the HATE list...


he's still on there......

Lord Ash
03-28-2012, 07:59 AM
As has been said, and reported by people much closer to the situation, it seemed that Harrison did not handle his interactions with the Duke staff in a mature way.

When you add in his attitude (most noticeably demonstrated by the famous handshake and congrats from last years Duke/Carolina game at Duke), his interest in his "brand" before he has actually accomplished enough by most peoples judgment to have EARNED a brand (he is the only player I've ever seen who has actively and noticeably pushed his own nickname in the form of shirts and necklaces and the like), and of course the massively over the top hype that he seemed to embrace, you can see why some people might not be huge fans of Harrison Barnes.

Kdogg
03-28-2012, 08:55 AM
On the Skype thing...

Skype was relatively new at the time HB used it to announce. Maybe He just thought it'd be cool, not realizing that one fan base would take it as such a slap in the face?


Skype's been around since 2003. In 2009 it was six years old which in internet terms is ancient. It was over the top. Most KU fans will agree too. Compare his announcement to Kyrie. Kyrie did not have a press conference or a gym full of people or the school placards laid out. It was just him and five minutes on ESPNU.

This isn't the reason I dislike him. Young kids do silly things. It's part of life. It's his continuing behavior that I find grating. Watch this clip from the UNC/UK game back in December: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YHzbtIrv1U . The guy is throwing a tantrum DURING the game. You can see that he thought he would be the hero, built his legency, and be like Mike. When the ball doesn't come his way, he pouts and stomps . Forget that the game is still going and he needs to foul to stop the clock.

magjayran
03-28-2012, 09:18 AM
And what evidence of that do we have? two straight years he has come up woefully short of expectations. He's can be good, but only when he wants to...and his game does not seem to have improved significantly from the latter half of last season through this season. I'm not sure why we would expect it to jump next year...especially with the rest of his team likely fleeing to the NBA...

Maybe he's played below expectations but 17 points and 5 boards on a team where several players score in double figures is a high level by my standards.

Starter
03-28-2012, 09:53 AM
Skype was relatively new at the time HB used it to announce. Maybe He just thought it'd be cool, not realizing that one fan base would take it as such a slap in the face?



You make it seem like Duke fans are the only people who don't like or pick apart Harrison Barnes. This past week, I've seen it coming from everywhere, including Carolina fans/writers. That's no surprise; I've seen plenty of Duke fans satisfied to eat their own with Rivers for perceived entitlement, even if it's not explicitly demonstrated. We have short memories, no patience and Twitter accounts to bare our immediate thoughts. Such is life, you know? People only started to realize LeBron James probably isn't the worst dude in America when he backed Trayvon very publicly. What'd he do? A pretentious announcement special.

For all I know, all of this is just youthful hubris, which I wrote in the Dime post. I can give him the benefit of the doubt without wearing an off-brand Black Falcon t-shirt.

alteran
03-28-2012, 10:21 AM
HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.

Oh, yes he has.

Okay, I'll cop to resentment. I don't so much enjoy it when things go badly for Harrison Barnes as I feel nothing. When I first saw the picture of him with the towel over his head, I thought pretty much like you-- I felt sorry for the kid. Is the world really a better place when cameras get shoved in a kid's face at a moment like that? Of course not. Sure, the kid went to UNC, but whoever he is, of course I empathize.

Then I realized the photo was of Harrison Barnes and I went, "oh... whatever."

It all comes down to the skype stunt. What you perceive as a teensy bit kinda maybe over the top was something, much, much more to Duke Nation. It's 2012 now, so let's set the stage for the skype stunt. It's 2009. Duke had lost early in the NCAAs yet again, and has not been to the FF since 2004. UNC sure felt like it was eclipsing us, what with a recent title and beating us 4 years in a row in Cameron. We don't know 2010 is coming. Public perception is that our teams have been alarmingly unatheletic (yes, I know that quote came later) for quite some time, and that we are consistently losing our big recruiting battles, particularly to Huckleberry the over-his-players bus driver-- who's been recruiting negatively against us.

As Skype day approaches, HB makes a call to Coach K-- he's got some key last minute questions. K goes to Ames, settles down Prince Harry, and leaves feeling pretty confident. Why shouldn't he be? Clearly Harrison Jordan Barnes is a great kid who would NEVER manipulate a legendary coach and thousands and thousands of fans just to hype himself up? Would he?

Then the skype event comes. My initial take is like yours-- hey, it's over the top and he chose THEM. Screw him. I'll be over it when the season starts. He's got a right to make his decisions, even if they're tragically misguided. Duke and UNC fans will move on from this like we have with dozens of other great recruits over the years who went to the other school.

But then people ask-- where did the jersey photo come from? Well, we find out that while K was summoned by Prince Harry to calm his jitters (seemingly successfully), Huckeberry was driving around Ames at the same time with what's already been agreed to be Harrison Barnes' jersey. (We know this because they told us-- apparently, they wanted us to know.) HB later makes the comment that the choice between Duke and UNC was never really close.

The whole skype day fiasco was a fraud, and a calculated FU to Coach K and the Duke fan base. And they wanted us to know.

Imagine how you felt as a UNC fan during the worst of the Gut era or middle of the Doh era. (The analogy isn't quite right but hang with me.) Then imagine some kid pulling what Harrison did-- but to UNC. I think you'd remember it a little. Maybe a little too much.

Now, don't think I don't have empathy for UNC players despite the rivalry. I felt serious empathy for Zeller after this year's game at the Nose Dome, particularly when people wanted to make him the dog. I also felt bad for Marshall-- you could tell it was eating him up to sit on the sidelines and it was NOT enjoyable to me in the least even though I was thrilled UNC lost.

Without the skype stunt, I'd probably feel the same way about Barnes.

Let's be real-- I'm treating him exactly like he wanted me to. Like he BEGGED me to. He's a kid that has said he doesn't want to offend any person ever, because hey! Everybody buys shoes, right?

But Duke fans, well... we don't rate like everybody else in the world in his book.

Fine with us. Just don't expect our tears.

COYS
03-28-2012, 11:43 AM
HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.

Wheat, I'm surprised you aren't the slightest bit critical of some of things Barnes has done. I will readily admit that Redick carried himself with a cocky air and yapped on the court quite a bit in his early years at Duke. Kyle Singler knocked the ball away from I've forgotten who at the end of the 2008 UNC game at Cameron as the closing seconds ticked away on a frustrating loss. Austin, while I think he gets too much of a bad rap, still brought a lot of the scrutiny on himself with his "destroy Lebron" comments. So you say NOTHING that HB has done deserves some scrutiny? Even if you let the Skype thing go (which I do, by the way), you've still got the silly self-made Black Falcon paraphernalia that he wore before he even suited up for a game. You've also got his calling a reporter in the middle of a season in which his TEAM was struggling to see if he still had a chance to make the AP All American team at the end of the season. Now, I'll be honest, these aren't horrible offenses. They don't mean he's not a good teammate, not a good basketball player, doesn't care about winning, is selfish, or a bad person. But they do give fan bases, especially his arch rivals fan base whom he spurned during his recruitment, some easy targets for dart throwing.

Personally, HB doesn't bother me that much. He's not dominant like I thought he'd be, which is a relief. Otherwise, I don't know much about him other than these few funny anecdotes.

oldnavy
03-28-2012, 01:04 PM
Wheat, I'm surprised you aren't the slightest bit critical of some of things Barnes has done. I will readily admit that Redick carried himself with a cocky air and yapped on the court quite a bit in his early years at Duke. Kyle Singler knocked the ball away from I've forgotten who at the end of the 2008 UNC game at Cameron as the closing seconds ticked away on a frustrating loss. Austin, while I think he gets too much of a bad rap, still brought a lot of the scrutiny on himself with his "destroy Lebron" comments. So you say NOTHING that HB has done deserves some scrutiny? Even if you let the Skype thing go (which I do, by the way), you've still got the silly self-made Black Falcon paraphernalia that he wore before he even suited up for a game. You've also got his calling a reporter in the middle of a season in which his TEAM was struggling to see if he still had a chance to make the AP All American team at the end of the season. Now, I'll be honest, these aren't horrible offenses. They don't mean he's not a good teammate, not a good basketball player, doesn't care about winning, is selfish, or a bad person. But they do give fan bases, especially his arch rivals fan base whom he spurned during his recruitment, some easy targets for dart throwing.

Personally, HB doesn't bother me that much. He's not dominant like I thought he'd be, which is a relief. Otherwise, I don't know much about him other than these few funny anecdotes.

I know some very UNC centric fans who typically defend anything Baby Blue who are more than a little put off by Barnes.... one is my mother-in-law who will fight you over "her heels"...

Hey, I was never a big fan of Josh McRoberts.... it's ok to have certain players that just rub you the wrong way...

Someone (too lazy to go back and see) said they disliked Henson more than Barnes. Not me, I kind of like Henson. Sure he spaces out at times and does silly things (slapping at balls, rim hanging, etc..) BUT he does look like he is enjoying himself, and I have seen him laugh at himself when he air balled a FT once, so you gotta love someone who can laugh at themselves right?

CDu
03-28-2012, 01:14 PM
Someone (too lazy to go back and see) said they disliked Henson more than Barnes. Not me, I kind of like Henson. Sure he spaces out at times and does silly things (slapping at balls, rim hanging, etc..) BUT he does look like he is enjoying himself, and I have seen him laugh at himself when he air balled a FT once, so you gotta love someone who can laugh at themselves right?

What I dislike about Henson is that he has a habit of taunting opponents and he is not afraid to escalate a tense situation with false bravado (like the time he got in Rivers' face and started walking through him after Bullock fouled Rivers in the UNC game at Chapel Hill). Just seems like a punk. Definitely a happy-go-lucky guy when things go well, but when adversity strikes the punk side comes out.

roywhite
03-28-2012, 02:17 PM
What I dislike about Henson is that he has a habit of taunting opponents and he is not afraid to escalate a tense situation with false bravado (like the time he got in Rivers' face and started walking through him after Bullock fouled Rivers in the UNC game at Chapel Hill). Just seems like a punk. Definitely a happy-go-lucky guy when things go well, but when adversity strikes the punk side comes out.

Henson just comes across as a standard obnoxious Carolina player....kind of a Rasheed Wallace wannabee. Somehow he rarely gets T'd up by the refs.
The worst Heel had to be Makhtar Ndiaye, but Henson is not in that class.

Barnes is just kind of a different guy; actually, I think we heard that during his recruitment.

CDu
03-28-2012, 02:21 PM
Henson just comes across as a standard obnoxious Carolina player....kind of a Rasheed Wallace wannabee. Somehow he rarely gets T'd up by the refs.
The worst Heel had to be Makhtar Ndiaye, but Henson is not in that class.

Barnes is just kind of a different guy; actually, I think we heard that during his recruitment.

I agree completely.

oldnavy
03-28-2012, 03:12 PM
What I dislike about Henson is that he has a habit of taunting opponents and he is not afraid to escalate a tense situation with false bravado (like the time he got in Rivers' face and started walking through him after Bullock fouled Rivers in the UNC game at Chapel Hill). Just seems like a punk. Definitely a happy-go-lucky guy when things go well, but when adversity strikes the punk side comes out.

Well you do make a good point...

I guess I just can't take the macho stuff serious from a 7 foot 180 pound stick figure! ;)

I just never gave his bravado much thought since he was probably the LEAST intimidating guy to be on the court at any given time...

He just makes me laugh!

miramar
03-28-2012, 04:26 PM
Here's Tom Sorensen's take:

As fluid as Barnes is, he ought to be fun to watch. He’s not fun. He’s frustrating.

His supporters claim that we have unreal expectations.

What’s unreal?

He’s 6-foot-8, somewhat athletic and has an array of moves that enable him to get his jumper off against almost any defender. But if he has moves that enable him to beat that defender off the dribble he left them in Chapel Hill or his native Iowa.

Is Barnes merely a tall shooter of jump shots? If so, every NBA team can use one because every NBA team has one. Harrison, meet the Charlotte Bobcats’ Matt Carroll.

Should Barnes stay in school a year and work on his game? He did that after his freshman year. Not only did he fail to improve, but he also no longer is a candidate to be one of the first players picked in the draft. Last year, he was.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/03/26/1961669/unc-players-offer-mixed-future.html#storylink=cpy

ncexnyc
03-28-2012, 05:12 PM
What I dislike about Henson is that he has a habit of taunting opponents and he is not afraid to escalate a tense situation with false bravado (like the time he got in Rivers' face and started walking through him after Bullock fouled Rivers in the UNC game at Chapel Hill). Just seems like a punk. Definitely a happy-go-lucky guy when things go well, but when adversity strikes the punk side comes out.
This is how I've felt about Henson from day one. I didn't see him willing to do anything to Bernard James when James leveled him from behind in Tallahassee. He just got up and tucked his tail between his legs like a whipped dog. In fact that is exactly the time I said to myself that team wasn't destined for a championship, because no one took exception to that play.

Lord Ash
03-28-2012, 06:17 PM
I rather dislike Henson, who strikes me as a braggart and a show off who mouths off. He doesn't have a tenth of 'Sheeds charisma or likeability.

Acymetric
03-28-2012, 06:19 PM
As has been said, and reported by people much closer to the situation, it seemed that Harrison did not handle his interactions with the Duke staff in a mature way.

When you add in his attitude (most noticeably demonstrated by the famous handshake and congrats from last years Duke/Carolina game at Duke), his interest in his "brand" before he has actually accomplished enough by most peoples judgment to have EARNED a brand (he is the only player I've ever seen who has actively and noticeably pushed his own nickname in the form of shirts and necklaces and the like), and of course the massively over the top hype that he seemed to embrace, you can see why some people might not be huge fans of Harrison Barnes.

I guess I missed this...details?


Kyle Singler knocked the ball away from I've forgotten who at the end of the 2008 UNC game at Cameron as the closing seconds ticked away on a frustrating loss.

I remember him doing that against Clemson at Clemson, did it happen against unc too?

DukieInKansas
03-28-2012, 06:42 PM
I admit to feeling sorry for Harrison Barnes during his freshman year. He wasn't living up to unrealistic expectations. I thought he improved as the year went on - he just went through what I think of as the normal freshman process. Big fish in a little pond needs to adjust to being in a bigger pond. I think this is true for many freshman that come in as one of the best in the country in whatever area and now compete more directly with other talented freshman in that area.

I didn't care for his whole skype decision announcement. I do remember being relieved that it wasn't Coach K and the Duke team buying into that nonsense on the other end. I would have liked to see him in a Duke uniform but if it meant Duke had to participate in that silly little HB lovefest, i'm glad he didn't select Duke. I never like players giving themselves a nickname. Nicknames, in my opinion, are best determined by circumstances and by others, unless it is a natural outcome of your given name. I think they mean more that way.

Son of Mojo
03-28-2012, 07:36 PM
I rather dislike Henson, who strikes me as a braggart and a show off who mouths off. He doesn't have a tenth of 'Sheeds charisma or likeability.

Ummmmmm--what likeability? I loathed the guy when he was at unc and his act was tired early into his nba career.

MaxAMillion
03-28-2012, 07:47 PM
I don't share any special feelings for Barnes. I despise all aspects of UNC equally.

HateCarolina
03-28-2012, 08:08 PM
I don't share any special feelings for Barnes. I despise all aspects of UNC equally.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. HB seems to be a bit of an enigma. On one hand we always hear how "cerebral", soft spoken and intelligent he is, but then he does the whole Black Falcon shtick, the Skype "I want to be kicked in the nose" college choice, and then does the interview with "The Atlantic" where to me he comes across like a self-righteous putz. I will say treating his career like a business makes sense. I'm a capitalist in the purest sense, but I don't claim or want to be the second coming of John D Rockefeller (in comparison to MJ and HB).

I wish him the best in life as a person, but as a Duke fan he will always be "one of those" from Carolina. Maybe the Hawks will draft him and I can berate him some down here in Atlanta.

CharlestonDevil
03-29-2012, 07:47 AM
I don't share any special feelings for Barnes. I despise all aspects of UNC equally.

Like a very wise man (my father) once told me.... THEY DESERVE EACH OTHER.

Think of it like this: What has always been the pet peeve about unc? And I don't necessarily mean the players but more in general the fans and the attitude of the program. It is their sense of entitlement. Many would call it arrogance.

You can't defend HB by just writing his actions off as a young guy who makes mistakes, or by saying that he doesn't deserve criticism because no one his age does. While Barnes may not be "Rasheed Wallace in your face" arrogant, the kid is full of himself and there is plenty of evidence to support that case. And if you ask me, he most definitely chose the best school to "leave his legacy". Chapel Hill and Harrison Barnes, a match made in heaven.

Reilly
03-29-2012, 09:30 AM
... Chapel Hill and Harrison Barnes, a match made in heaven.

During the UNC football cheating scandal, the State fans had a field day with the state motto ("To be, rather than to seem") ... inverting the motto so as to describe Carolina's arrogance, sense of entitlement and superiority, and self-delusion about doing things the right ("Carolina") way and better than others, and how all that did not match the sordid facts. So: "To seem, rather than to be."

Seems the same applies to Barnes ... the Black Falcon accoutrement, zero ACC championships, no final 4's, zero's from 3 in the most recent big game ... he wasn't the best or most important player on his own team, which didn't bring home the hardware .... he didn't match the self-created hype, and as yet hasn't created the legacy, and the brand is taking a major hit (if it ever got off the ground) .... "To seem, rather than to be."

mgtr
03-29-2012, 12:02 PM
To paraphrase a very famous political cut down: "I knew Michael Jordan, and HB isn't him!"

MChambers
03-29-2012, 12:09 PM
To paraphrase a very famous political cut down: "I knew Michael Jordan, and HB isn't him!"

Maybe Barnes will stay at UNC, but his brand will head to the NBA?

Indoor66
03-29-2012, 12:14 PM
Maybe Barnes will stay at UNC, but his brand will head to the NBA?

Nah, his brand went to Fuquay a couple years ago.

roywhite
03-29-2012, 12:37 PM
Much of the Barnes story is fairly normal. A very highly rated prospect turns out to be not as good as advertised....good but not a superstar.
Happens frequently and has happened in Durham, too.

What makes this story interesting, and frankly satisfying to Duke fans like myself, is the degree of hype and promotion that was due to the player himself.
In fact, perhaps that hype and self-promotion enhanced his rating when he was in high school. I suspect Barnes will make a very good living as a pro, and may even get an endorsement or two. But the idea that he's the next Jordan or transcendant basketball player is just silly, and probably always was.

The most interesting aspect at this point IMO is whether Barnes acquires some humility along the way.

OldSchool
03-29-2012, 05:42 PM
Much of the Barnes story is fairly normal. A very highly rated prospect turns out to be not as good as advertised....good but not a superstar.

In the famous movie "The Maltese Falcon" a great deal of interest surrounds a statuette of a black falcon.

At the end of the movie, the statuette is finally obtained and examined closely.

It turns out to be just an ordinary statuette of a black falcon, and not the fabulous treasure covered with jewels so many thought it was.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 05:44 PM
In the famous movie "The Maltese Falcon" a great deal of interest surrounds a statuette of a black falcon.

At the end of the movie, the statuette is finally obtained and examined closely.

It turns out to be just an ordinary statuette of a black falcon, and not the fabulous treasure covered with jewels so many thought it was.

Maybe Barnes knew all along... :)

NashvilleDevil
03-29-2012, 05:50 PM
In the famous movie "The Maltese Falcon" a great deal of interest surrounds a statuette of a black falcon.

At the end of the movie, the statuette is finally obtained and examined closely.

It turns out to be just an ordinary statuette of a black falcon, and not the fabulous treasure covered with jewels so many thought it was.

So he's the stuff dreams are made of?

OldSchool
03-29-2012, 05:52 PM
So he's the stuff dreams are made of?

If you believe God made the Skype Carolina blue...

Duvall
03-29-2012, 05:56 PM
In the famous movie "The Maltese Falcon" a great deal of interest surrounds a statuette of a black falcon.

At the end of the movie, the statuette is finally obtained and examined closely.

It turns out to be just an ordinary statuette of a black falcon, and not the fabulous treasure covered with jewels so many thought it was.

UNC coaching staff meeting? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeyVs6u_FG8&feature=related)

ncexnyc
03-29-2012, 06:11 PM
In the famous movie "The Maltese Falcon" a great deal of interest surrounds a statuette of a black falcon.

At the end of the movie, the statuette is finally obtained and examined closely.

It turns out to be just an ordinary statuette of a black falcon, and not the fabulous treasure covered with jewels so many thought it was.

So I take it Ol' Roy gets the Kasper Gutman role, or is he Joel Cario?

Indoor66
03-29-2012, 06:21 PM
So I take it Ol' Roy gets the Kasper Gutman role, or is he Joel Cario?

Ol' Roy plays the statue!

OldSchool
03-29-2012, 06:21 PM
So I take it Ol' Roy gets the Kasper Gutman role, or is he Joel Cario?

Sure, I would give Ol Roy the Kasper Gutman role. Like Gutman, he seems to take the disappointment with a resigned chuckle.

Joel Cairo would have to be that segment of the Heel fan base that completely flipped out over the poor performance of Barnes against Ohio and Kansas.

Sgt. Dingleberry
03-29-2012, 06:23 PM
In the famous movie "The Maltese Falcon" a great deal of interest surrounds a statuette of a black falcon.

At the end of the movie, the statuette is finally obtained and examined closely.

It turns out to be just an ordinary statuette of a black falcon, and not the fabulous treasure covered with jewels so many thought it was.

I have always loved calling Prince Harry the Black Pigeon and never thought it would be topped. Until now. That is uncanny.

fan345678
03-29-2012, 06:55 PM
for a kick, I decided to figure out whose legacy HB managed to match. I had a hunch who it might be, and here are some stats:

Harrison Barnes:
Sophomore- 17.1 pts, 5.2 reb, 1.1 ast
Freshman- 15.7 pts, 5.8 reb, 1.4 ast; ACC Rookie of the Year

Other UNC Legend:
Sophomore- 20.9 pts, 6.1 reb, 3.5 ast; co-ACC Player of the Year
Freshman- 16.7 pts, 5.5 reb, 2.6 ast; ACC Rookie of the Year, Final Four

So, HB doesn't quite stack up to the other legendary UNC scorer I had in mind (neither in stats nor in career accomplishments). It's too bad for HB that as great as his legacy was, he'll always be a notch below Joe Forte.

ncexnyc
03-29-2012, 07:00 PM
Sure, I would give Ol Roy the Kasper Gutman role. Like Gutman, he seems to take the disappointment with a resigned chuckle.

Joel Cairo would have to be that segment of the Heel fan base that completely flipped out over the poor performance of Barnes against Ohio and Kansas.

Which means we will let the kids left behind assume the role of Wilmer Cook, as they are the ones left holding the bag.

gocanes0506
03-29-2012, 08:13 PM
Still crazy to think what a lineup of:

Irving
Smith
Barnes
Singler
Plumlee

would have been. Then they would have had Dawkins, Thornton, Plumlee, Kelly, and Hairston as backups. Well he was still a good player just would have been better to make that brand at Duke. I dont see how any player says they are going to build a brand at Carolina. I mean they only have 30 players in their roster. Kind of hard to build any name for yourself with all those names in front of you. Even more so when you are behind the greatest NBA player in the media error.

SmartDevil
03-29-2012, 09:34 PM
One only....."Brand name" goods (might be counterfeit?).....did not "sell"....marked down this year....and as of today being cleared out.



<<applies only to HB not JH and KM who now command a premium due to increased value>>

DukieTiger
03-29-2012, 10:45 PM
Still crazy to think what a lineup of:

Irving
Smith
Barnes
Singler
Plumlee

would have been. Then they would have had Dawkins, Thornton, Plumlee, Kelly, and Hairston as backups.

and Curry

moonpie23
04-06-2012, 09:12 PM
i wonder how he will look back on his decision to go to unc....not go to unc over duke, rather, just the decision to go to unc..

it seems that a LOT of unc fans have turned against him......big time....

roywhite
04-06-2012, 09:30 PM
Looks like the marketing campaign continues.

Coming soon to stores near you? (https://p.twimg.com/Ap0JHUICMAAqImd.jpg)

El_Diablo
04-06-2012, 09:33 PM
The Black Falcon now has a nifty logo!

2523

Discuss.

EDIT: Well, darn...Roy shared the same thing as I was posting.

Devilsfan
04-06-2012, 09:39 PM
Exclusive clothing for "the Classic Underachiever" by Black Falcon.
Or "Potential" by Black Falcon.
Or "Dreams Unrealized" by Black Falcon.

roywhite
04-06-2012, 09:45 PM
The Black Falcon now has a nifty logo!

2523

Discuss.

EDIT: Well, darn...Roy shared the same thing as I was posting.

...great minds and all that...

Even the IC people are not sure what to make of this.

My favorite comment:
Cool logo, does it fade when exposed to bright lights?

Newton_14
04-06-2012, 10:00 PM
...great minds and all that...

Even the IC people are not sure what to make of this.

My favorite comment:
Cool logo, does it fade when exposed to bright lights?

So, does he start with a tattoo of the logo? Phil Knight have his design team working on the new "Nike Black Falcons" sneakers with the logo on the back of the shoe?

The UNC fanbase here locally does seem to be turning on him pretty quickly. His performance in the Ohio and Kansas games, combined with going Pro seems to have pushed them over the edge. Barnes even commented on it himself earlier in the week.

Despite the critique of his game, he is still as high as 6th in some of the mock drafts, which boggles the mind. Given the current state of his game, taking him as high as the sixth pick in this draft is a huge risk imo. I just don't see the logic behind that.

DukieInKansas
04-06-2012, 10:09 PM
The Black Falcon now has a nifty logo!

2523

Discuss.

EDIT: Well, darn...Roy shared the same thing as I was posting.

Am I the only one that sees an H followed by a spider in that logo?

WiJoe
04-06-2012, 10:27 PM
What a clown.

Newton_14
04-06-2012, 10:46 PM
Am I the only one that sees an H followed by a spider in that logo?

I didn't at first, but now that you mention it, you can see a spider like image. HB is getting lit up in twitter world. Hard to feel sorry for him when he brings it upon himself so often. Draft night should be interesting...

zoroaster
04-06-2012, 11:08 PM
The spider is setting upon the "H" and eating it.

bounce840
04-07-2012, 12:03 AM
Harrison Barnes. Barnes is a good player. Remember Harrison well for his two years. We really don't need him. Look we got Irving. He was better. Barnes has decent athletecism, is a good shooter and has made clutch shots. I don't see him as a superstar though. Maybe a good player. Average ten to fifteen points a game. Kind of like Jamal Crawford.

oldnavy
04-07-2012, 06:25 AM
Where is the voice of reason in this kids life? He really needs some "adult" to pull him aside and tell him the the truth about where he is at in his career.

For instance, "you were the 4th best player on your team this year", "you only excelled when set up by an outstanding point guard", "you cannot dribble the ball", "you need major work on your defense", "you are getting ready to move into a world full of physically mature men who have all the same skill sets that you have, plus they have skills that you don't have", "nobody outside of the DBR and IC even knows what "black falcon" refers to", and if you bring that attitude into a locker room as a rookie with your "credentials " you are going to be crushed.... so,

Get drafted, make improvements, and wait until you have actually accomplished one goal before moving on to the next....

Your focus should be on improving in the areas where you are vulnerable not posing with a stupid logo design.... earth the HB, earth to HB.... come in.....

moonpie23
04-07-2012, 07:43 AM
SO Well said.....the parallels between the music business and athletes are so similar. (I used the analogy of a band being like a basketball team all the time).

Much like the "hot new band" that get's courted for a record deal, or is the subject of a bidding war. They are heralded by fans, critics, and other "professionals" (mostly those thinking of their percentages off the artist) as they are then put to the task of actually DOING something of merit.

THEN, they find out that they lack a lot of the basic fundamentals required to propel them to the next level. They sometimes find out (much like the athletes) that much of the back-patting they received was "hype" and then they're staring down the barrel of actually having to DELIVER the goods... there are just as many good bands "riding the pine" at labels as basketball players.

The way the NBA regards "talent" and "hype" is very much like the way record labels exploit young talent.

Someone needs to tell HWNSNBM that he's just not that good......YET.......

DukeGirl4ever
04-07-2012, 07:54 AM
Someone on Twitter said that if you rotate Harry's new logo, it looks like Anthony Davis's unibrow! :p
They are ripping him on Twitter.
And rightfully so. This is an absolute joke.

How much do you want to bet he actually had this logo created when he was in high school, or at least at a rough idea of what he wanted for his "brand"?

westwall
04-07-2012, 08:17 AM
The spider is setting upon the "H" and eating it.

I assume the "H" must stand for "HOO?"

roywhite
04-07-2012, 08:24 AM
Where is the voice of reason in this kids life? He really needs some "adult" to pull him aside and tell him the the truth about where he is at in his career.

For instance, "you were the 4th best player on your team this year", "you only excelled when set up by an outstanding point guard", "you cannot dribble the ball", "you need major work on your defense", "you are getting ready to move into a world full of physically mature men who have all the same skill sets that you have, plus they have skills that you don't have", "nobody outside of the DBR and IC even knows what "black falcon" refers to", and if you bring that attitude into a locker room as a rookie with your "credentials " you are going to be crushed.... so,

Get drafted, make improvements, and wait until you have actually accomplished one goal before moving on to the next....

Your focus should be on improving in the areas where you are vulnerable not posing with a stupid logo design.... earth the HB, earth to HB.... come in.....

Certainly agree with this.

We've seen the what-if scenarios discussed with respect to Barnes' college choice. If he had chosen Duke, what would that have meant to the last two Duke teams, etc. One thing that I'm pretty sure about is that if Coach K had been his coach, Barnes would have had considerable "direction" and lessons about attitude and teamwork vs individual achievements and self-promotion.

It's not hard to imagine what sort of reaction Barnes will face if he goes to a pro town like New York and does his brand promotion without the game to back it up.

Devilsfan
04-07-2012, 08:33 AM
Maybe we just misunderstand HB. This may be the logo for his new video game. It makes more sense. He can take over a basketball game, score 50 points, turn into the "Black Falcon" and sky from half court to slam dunk, etc. Since he is an average athlete in real life this may give him the opportunity to fulfill his childhood dreams that the fans in chapel hill thought they were going to see in person.

slower
04-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Honestly, I'm ALMOST embarrassed for the kid. He's turning himself into a Kardashian.

mgtr
04-07-2012, 09:25 AM
Honestly, I'm ALMOST embarrassed for the kid. He's turning himself into a Kardashian.

This is a wonderful point. If his main goal is to be famous and make a ton of money, maybe self-promotion is the way to go. If he wants to be successful, have a lot of fans, be respected by his teammates, and make a lot money, well, he is going down the wrong road.

roywhite
04-07-2012, 09:33 AM
This is a wonderful point. If his main goal is to be famous and make a ton of money, maybe self-promotion is the way to go. If he wants to be successful, have a lot of fans, be respected by his teammates, and make a lot money, well, he is going down the wrong road.

Yeah, no doubt celebrity itself seems to be celebrated and rewarded nowadays.

I just wonder if the Black Falcon brand will take off if HB himself regularly occupies a perch on an NBA bench.

davekay1971
04-07-2012, 09:40 AM
Honestly, I'm ALMOST embarrassed for the kid. He's turning himself into a Kardashian.

Kim IS single. And she seems to like athletes who haven't quite been able to live up to expectations on the field/court...

SMO
04-07-2012, 10:06 AM
The spider is setting upon the "H" and eating it.

If you turn the spider counter clockwise it looks like an 'M'. So then it reads 'HM', as in Harold Miner.

camion
04-07-2012, 10:08 AM
Cart and horse. I think the falcon has them in inverse order.

Or maybe there is only the cart.

oldnavy
04-07-2012, 11:04 AM
Certainly agree with this.

We've seen the what-if scenarios discussed with respect to Barnes' college choice. If he had chosen Duke, what would that have meant to the last two Duke teams, etc. One thing that I'm pretty sure about is that if Coach K had been his coach, Barnes would have had considerable "direction" and lessons about attitude and teamwork vs individual achievements and self-promotion.

It's not hard to imagine what sort of reaction Barnes will face if he goes to a pro town like New York and does his brand promotion without the game to back it up.

You know, now that I think about it, I am not buying the "he works so hard on his game" line anymore.... He didn't improve in any area that I could see from his first game to his last. In fact you might say he got worse in some aspects.

So, if he was this amazingly driven guy, who worked so hard on his game, why did he never develop the ability to drive into the lane and create his own shot or improve the other weakeness' of his game?

I think this was just PR meant to feed into his "brand".

Get ready for the Big Leagues HB, those who follow the NBA will soon find out if you are indeed as advertised...

zoroaster
04-07-2012, 12:38 PM
If you turn the spider counter clockwise it looks like an 'M'. So then it reads 'HM', as in Harold Miner.

I didn't get your reference at first.. but wikipedia was very accomodating. :)


I always felt the worst thing to happen to Harold was the "Baby Jordan" tag.

— George Raveling, Miner's head coach at USC

And Miner had a very desultory NBA career, washing out after 3 years. But Miner (with his Slam Dunk championship) did distinguish himself as somewhat like Jordan -- HB not so much, with his slow first step and weak handle.

The logo is also in the 3rd picture, on the Beats headphone (don't know how he arranged for that) -- I didn't notice at first. Along with his picture in the suit, it seems like he's going for a Gucci or Louis Vuitton type image.. not sure how this is all supposed to come together.

BD80
04-07-2012, 01:54 PM
Does he refer to himself in the third person?

ncexnyc
04-07-2012, 03:55 PM
Kim IS single. And she seems to like athletes who haven't quite been able to live up to expectations on the field/court...

However they seem to perform better once they dump her or get dumped whatever the case may be.

Starter
04-07-2012, 05:06 PM
Kim IS single. And she seems to like athletes who haven't quite been able to live up to expectations on the field/court...

I don't think Barnes can even come close to comparing to Kanye West in terms of neuroses, if that's the playing field.

Barnes' personal logo ranks up there with Tim Tebow's (http://www.nikeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Nike-Tebow-Dri-FIT-Logo-T-Shirt.png) in terms of hilarity, but I'm not going to lie, if they make a shirt like the Tebow one, I might get one for the sheer irony of it. (I have weird taste in this sort of thing; I have a Canseco jersey, two Clarett jerseys and a closet full of Bonds jerseys.)

BD80
04-07-2012, 07:37 PM
... I have a Canseco jersey... and a closet full of Bonds jerseys.)

You should check the pockets

DukieInKansas
04-07-2012, 07:54 PM
Does he refer to himself in the third person?

If so, then he did learn something from Roy.

blueduke59
04-07-2012, 08:54 PM
negative wheat.....no.....never in a million years....

the arrogance displayed by this guy BEGS for laser-burning scrutiny and criticism......his entire persona is so self-gratifying, it sickens me.

i've said this before, and y'all can all pile on me again and take my sporks, but i STILL think it was a setup from the start, and if it wasn't from the start, it definitely was from the time roy waited outside his house while K was inside. I really WANTED him at duke, but now that i see through the facade, i'm so glad we dodged that bullet...

the ONLY good thing attached to that guy's LIFE so far is the fact that our coach actually tried to recruit him. My avatar says it all about who that guy REALLY is....

I endorse this post.

The "he's just a kid" stuff only goes so far. He's a self centered kid full of himself. There's a difference

Starter
04-07-2012, 09:06 PM
You should check the pockets

I did, nothing to report. But you should have seen what I found in my Clemens Blue Jays jersey.

bounce840
04-07-2012, 11:22 PM
I think Harrison is really cocky but that's part of his game. He also has some flaws. In the recent tournament he was criticized for being one-dimensional. His punishment will be to get drafted by a bad team like the Bobcats.

camion
04-08-2012, 08:07 AM
I think Harrison is really cocky but that's part of his game. He also has some flaws. In the recent tournament he was criticized for being one-dimensional. His punishment will be to get drafted by a bad team like the Bobcats.

HB an employee of MJ, how fitting. I do pity bobcats though. Such a lovely animal shouldn't have its reputation besmirched by a professional sports team.

BD80
04-08-2012, 11:09 AM
I did, nothing to report. But you should have seen what I found in my Clemens Blue Jays jersey.

You found "his wife's" stash?

Jderf
04-09-2012, 10:14 AM
Here's my question: if Barnes is just an average player, not bad but not not great either, who was over-hyped out of high school to a ridiculous extent, who never quite met the absurd expectation set by himself and others, and who will wind up being nothing more than a moderately successful (but not legendary) pro -- then why do we care? Why do we obsess over his tweets and the painfully careful wording of his press releases? Over-hyped prima donnas are not a rare commodity in basketball. So why does this one command so much of our attention?

I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that our fanbase is still somewhat traumatized by how his recruitment played out. Even though he never panned out into the player everyone expected, we are still very bitter, for the simple reason that we were so invested emotionally in the young man. So while we obsess over him like a jealous ex-boyfriend, we continually have to re-justify to ourselves why he is so worthy of our hatred -- why he is so unique. Because he is pretentious, we say. He is full of himself. A huge bust. But, more than anything, I personally think that the only thing that makes him unique is that he publicly slighted (intentionally or not) one of the two most neurotic fanbases in all of college basketball.

And unfortunately for him, with his draft declaration and his dearth of accomplishments at UNC, I can't help but wonder if he just slighted the other.

Kedsy
04-09-2012, 10:33 AM
I personally think that the only thing that makes him unique is that he publicly slighted (intentionally or not) one of the two most neurotic fanbases in all of college basketball.

And unfortunately for him, with his draft declaration and his dearth of accomplishments at UNC, I can't help but wonder if he just slighted the other.

I think you're seriously underestimating the University of Kentucky's fan base.

Des Esseintes
04-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Here's my question: if Barnes is just an average player, not bad but not not great either, who was over-hyped out of high school to a ridiculous extent, who never quite met the absurd expectation set by himself and others, and who will wind up being nothing more than a moderately successful (but not legendary) pro -- then why do we care? Why do we obsess over his tweets and the painfully careful wording of his press releases? Over-hyped prima donnas are not a rare commodity in basketball. So why does this one command so much of our attention?

I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that our fanbase is still somewhat traumatized by how his recruitment played out. Even though he never panned out into the player everyone expected, we are still very bitter, for the simple reason that we were so invested emotionally in the young man. So while we obsess over him like a jealous ex-boyfriend, we continually have to re-justify to ourselves why he is so worthy of our hatred -- why he is so unique. Because he is pretentious, we say. He is full of himself. A huge bust. But, more than anything, I personally think that the only thing that makes him unique is that he publicly slighted (intentionally or not) one of the two most neurotic fanbases in all of college basketball.

And unfortunately for him, with his draft declaration and his dearth of accomplishments at UNC, I can't help but wonder if he just slighted the other.

Well, yes, but plenty of players have picked Carolina over Duke, and I haven't read any philippics against Brandan Wright lately. And there have been guys with endless recruitments that chose elsewhere, and nobody here has a special animosity for John Wall that I can tell. Or Greg Monroe. You could argue that it's the confluence of Duke vs. Carolina AND a drawn-out recruitment, but he did at least announce in the fall.

This dude just really gets under one's skin, and though I'm hardly the conspiracy theorist type, it sure does look as though he led the coaching staff on while intending to go to UNC all along. Whether he did that out of megalomania or malice or a combination of the two, I can't say, but I think (if fandom makes any sense at all) Duke fans have a right to despise Harrison Barnes with the intensity they do.

Jderf
04-09-2012, 10:39 AM
I think you're seriously underestimating the University of Kentucky's fan base.

Haha! I was actually thinking exactly that while I was posting, but I decided to leave them out of it for some reason.

slower
04-09-2012, 10:42 AM
Here's my question: if Barnes is just an average player, not bad but not not great either, who was over-hyped out of high school to a ridiculous extent, who never quite met the absurd expectation set by himself and others, and who will wind up being nothing more than a moderately successful (but not legendary) pro -- then why do we care? Why do we obsess over his tweets and the painfully careful wording of his press releases? Over-hyped prima donnas are not a rare commodity in basketball. So why does this one command so much of our attention?



Because he's "that guy."

Jderf
04-09-2012, 10:45 AM
Well, yes, but plenty of players have picked Carolina over Duke, and I haven't read any philippics against Brandan Wright lately. And there have been guys with endless recruitments that chose elsewhere, and nobody here has a special animosity for John Wall that I can tell. Or Greg Monroe. You could argue that it's the confluence of Duke vs. Carolina AND a drawn-out recruitment, but he did at least announce in the fall.

This dude just really gets under one's skin, and though I'm hardly the conspiracy theorist type, it sure does look as though he led the coaching staff on while intending to go to UNC all along. Whether he did that out of megalomania or malice or a combination of the two, I can't say, but I think (if fandom makes any sense at all) Duke fans have a right to despise Harrison Barnes with the intensity they do.

I agree there have been other high-profile recruiting struggles between Duke and UNC, but none at such a seemingly symbolic moment for both programs. Roy was on top of the world, having brought UNC back to prominence, and Duke seemed to be fading into mediocrity. Barnes, a very heavy Duke lean at the time, was branded as the savior of our program, and... well, you know the rest. I think the perception of differing trajectories for the two programs was what made the recruiting whiff so traumatizing for us. Of course, we now know that was perception, not reality. But that didn't make it any less painful at the time.

[/armchair psychology]

moonpie23
04-09-2012, 12:28 PM
Here's my question:then why do we care?

because he screwed over our coach, the staff and our program so he and his beloved altar-of-mj school could have a laugh on us...

well, the laugh is on him.....and roy, and the smurfs.....


yea, i said it.....:mad:

Starter
04-09-2012, 12:28 PM
I don't think anybody's really pining for Barnes anymore -- the National Championship in 2010 killed that -- but given our history with him, it's perfectly reasonable to be intrigued, and a little satisfied, with how things are playing out. Besides, there's more unintentional humor here than an early-90's Charlie Sheen action movie. (Anyone ever seen Terminal Velocity? An absolute classic.)

UrinalCake
04-09-2012, 12:41 PM
I think it's a lot of things. He didn't just choose UNC over Duke, he led everyone to believe that he was coming to Duke up until the last minute, then didn't, and later made a comment that he never had considered any other school than UNC. The skype thing rubbed a lot of us the wrong way. His demeanor on the court seems arrogant - maybe that's just a biased perception, but I've heard it from others too.

I do think there's a great irony in the fact that UNC fans complain that all Duke does is shoot jump shots and has no inside game, while their golden boy HB has turned out to be nothing but a jump shooter.

In the end though, do we really need a reason to dislike someone? There are scores of Duke players who are hated by UNC fans, for reasons that you can't really break down when you think about it logically.

sagegrouse
04-09-2012, 12:48 PM
I agree there have been other high-profile recruiting struggles between Duke and UNC, but none at such a seemingly symbolic moment for both programs. Roy was on top of the world, having brought UNC back to prominence, and Duke seemed to be fading into mediocrity. Barnes, a very heavy Duke lean at the time, was branded as the savior of our program, and... well, you know the rest. I think the perception of differing trajectories for the two programs was what made the recruiting whiff so traumatizing for us. Of course, we now know that was perception, not reality. But that didn't make it any less painful at the time.

[/armchair psychology]


because he screwed over our coach, the staff and our program so he and his beloved altar-of-mj school could have a laugh on us...

well, the laugh is on him.....and roy, and the smurfs.....


yea, i said it.....:mad:


I don't think anybody's really pining for Barnes anymore -- the National Championship in 2010 killed that -- but given our history with him, it's perfectly reasonable to be intrigued, and a little satisfied, with how things are playing out. Besides, there's more unintentional humor here than an early-90's Charlie Sheen action movie. (Anyone ever seen Terminal Velocity? An absolute classic.)


I think it's a lot of things. He didn't just choose UNC over Duke, he led everyone to believe that he was coming to Duke up until the last minute, then didn't, and later made a comment that he never had considered any other school than UNC. The skype thing rubbed a lot of us the wrong way. His demeanor on the court seems arrogant - maybe that's just a biased perception, but I've heard it from others too.

I do think there's a great irony in the fact that UNC fans complain that all Duke does is shoot jump shots and has no inside game, while their golden boy HB has turned out to be nothing but a jump shooter.

In the end though, do we really need a reason to dislike someone? There are scores of Duke players who are hated by UNC fans, for reasons that you can't really break down when you think about it logically.

It isn't just the disappointment in the recruiting outcome; it's the endless posturing and overblown rhetoric that, quite frankly, even legitimate sports icons don't produce. We also had fun with Hansbrough, due to his hyperactive pace of play and gyrations in the paint. I mean, his teammates called him Psycho T. Hansbrough was a hated rival, not a recruiting loss to Carolina.

The recruiting fandango with HB, however, does give a raw edge to the posts here -- good!

sagegrouse

Andre Buckner Fan
04-09-2012, 01:19 PM
It isn't just the disappointment in the recruiting outcome; it's the endless posturing and overblown rhetoric that, quite frankly, even legitimate sports icons don't produce.


Personally, it was this YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arv-P1UyCyQ) that really added an edge to my dislike of Mr. Barnes.

Sure, they're kids goofing around. Marshall and Kyrie just seem to be having fun, and they're enjoying being silly. Bullock is unwise and arrogant but for some reason not all that annoying. However, there is some je ne sais quoi in Barnes demeanor, then and now, that really makes you want root for him to NOT win.

And that's independent of him being a Tarheel.

Jderf
04-09-2012, 01:21 PM
I just want to go out of my way to say that I, personally, don't like Harrison Barnes. I agree with most Duke fans that he is annoying, and I can't wait for him to disappear into the abyss of NBA mediocrity.

I'm mostly just curious about how such a relatively insignificant player can still garner so much of our attention. I mean, when you get down to it, even guys like Danny Green had much more influential careers at UNC. In twenty years, no one at UNC will be talking about him the way we still talk about guys like Johnny Dawkins or Grant Hill -- except maybe as a cautionary tale. The man is just small potatoes.

oldnavy
04-09-2012, 01:38 PM
There would be no thread if Barnes had gone anywhere except UNC.... basically we love to see UNC prima donna's fail, so when it happens we celebrate on the boards....

gumbomoop
04-09-2012, 06:55 PM
There would be no thread if Barnes had gone anywhere except UNC.... basically we love to see UNC prima donna's fail, so when it happens we celebrate on the boards....

I agree to the extent that any Barnes-thread would have been much shorter. Still, had his recruitment played out exactly as it did, and had he gone, say, to UK or Kansas or Georgetown, my guess is that there would be a thread. Further, that thread would have continued intermittently, given that he failed to live up to [unfair] expectations. And I'd guess further that his failure to win the NC would have drawn comment.


.... it's perfectly reasonable to be intrigued, and a little satisfied, with how things are playing out.

Increasingly the focus has been on the over-the-top "branding" issues, which seem willingly, if foolishly, self-inflicted. Maybe, it's "celebrating" his failure, but for me, Barnes presents a truly "intriguing," if uncomfortable, study.

Consider. [Actually most of you have already considered all these things, so maybe I'm just summarizing here.]

1. the recruiting drama
2. Roy's early statement to the effect that "Harrison Barnes is the most driven player I've ever coached." - Well, he presented himself that way, and seems to have wanted to be perceived that way, but, as with so many aspects of his brief college career, things don't quite add up. He wasn't driven enough to play solid D consistently. He wasn't driven enough to become a willing and skillful passer. he said he would work on his handle, but if he did, he didn't work hard enough. He may have been "driven," but he has yet to learn how to drive to the basket with forcefulness.
3. the regal branding stuff is terribly off-putting. And obviously so.
4. I've noted in an earlier post my suspicion - given my own experience with precocious young people - that he was so precocious that either no adult was willing to notice his unbecoming self-promotion, or maybe 1 or 2 did notice [the bloody obvious??] but either couldn't or just didn't find a way to take him aside.
5. If he weren't such a good player, he'd right now be dangerously close to a joke, like "3d-person Brad" of Progressive Insurance commercial "fame."

ncexnyc
04-09-2012, 07:07 PM
This thread has reached 10 pages and counting. Brand X is like the car accident that you know you shouldn't look at, but do anyway.

moonpie23
04-09-2012, 07:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70


perspective

oldnavy
04-10-2012, 05:58 AM
I think as bad as the recruiting slap in the face hurt, most of us would have totally forgot about Barnes if he had chosen UK for instance, if for no other reason we would not see so much of him. With him going to UNC we played him twice a year and closely followed his team since they are our arch rivals and our primary competition for the ACC title...

I think the primary reason we stay with him is that he is a tarheel... I know in my case, I would not be interested in him if he were a wildcat or bruin, or anything other than a heel..... (pun intended)....

Jderf
04-10-2012, 08:13 AM
I think as bad as the recruiting slap in the face hurt, most of us would have totally forgot about Barnes if he had chosen UK for instance, if for no other reason we would not see so much of him. With him going to UNC we played him twice a year and closely followed his team since they are our arch rivals and our primary competition for the ACC title...

I think the primary reason we stay with him is that he is a tarheel... I know in my case, I would not be interested in him if he were a wildcat or bruin, or anything other than a heel..... (pun intended)....

Yeah, I guess it really was a perfect storm of various factors that all necessarily led to our disdain for him. We've had similar misses. Even losing them to UNC. We've also missed on similarly obnoxious players (think Humphries). And we've even also faced some pretty annoying UNC players from time to time. And, of course, we've seen plenty of recruits fail to live up to expectations in the ACC. But with Barnes, we had all of those wrapped up into one. Here's my take:

(1) At a time when Duke was perceived as a fading power, (2) he was our top recruit, considered a Duke lock for a significantly long period of time. (3) He became hyped as the savior of our program, which is when he (4) spurned us -- for our archrival, on the heels of their two recent championships, (5) in a public, obnoxious (and retrospectively hilarious) skype call, (6) where he even claimed there was never a second choice, and (7) then proceeded to fail to live up to the absurd expectations set for/by him and (8) played in three UNC-Duke games that were legendarily bad for them (epic second-half comeback in Cameron; an ACC Championship beatdown; and this year, the Austin Rivers buzzer-beater). (9) He then left UNC after two seasons which were in no way memorable, except for their disappointment, (10) all the while, continuing to talk about his "brand" and his "legacy" and his "illustrious career," and generally acting as though he was the biggest figure in all of basketball.

Yup. That'll do it.

Billy Dat
04-10-2012, 09:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70


perspective

In an unused out-take, Lucas sent the Black Falcon to pick up nearly dead Luke Skywalker instead of the Millennium Falcon. He realized that the shot would never work because the Black Falcon would never get all the way to where Skywalker was dangling, handless, off the rim of the Death Star...it insisted on hovering 20' 9" away.

roywhite
04-10-2012, 09:49 AM
In an unused out-take, Lucas sent the Black Falcon to pick up nearly dead Luke Skywalker instead of the Millennium Falcon. He realized that the shot would never work because the Black Falcon would never get all the way to where Skywalker was dangling, handless, off the rim of the Death Star...it insisted on hovering 20' 9" away.

Lol. good.

Billy, questions for you and others who follow the NBA closely:

What is the likely area for HB's draft position?
Do you see him being successful in the league? To what degree?

Frankly, I don't like the guy, so I have a hard time being objective about him as a pure basketball player.
I hear and read that he's a good shooter and scorer, who's got the size and ability to do well in the pro game.
Yet, I look at his performance this past year in Chapel Hill, where he had very favorable conditions for scoring...a great PG to get him the ball and several other offensive threats on his team to keep the defense honest.

Barnes ended up shooting 44% FG and 35.8% 3-pt FG.
In conference games, even a bit lower....43.2% FG and 33.9% 3-pt FG.
Is this the profile of a top ten draft pick, potential star?

luvdahops
04-10-2012, 10:11 AM
Lol. good.

Billy, questions for you and others who follow the NBA closely:

What is the likely area for HB's draft position?
Do you see him being successful in the league? To what degree?

Frankly, I don't like the guy, so I have a hard time being objective about him as a pure basketball player.
I hear and read that he's a good shooter and scorer, who's got the size and ability to do well in the pro game.
Yet, I look at his performance this past year in Chapel Hill, where he had very favorable conditions for scoring...a great PG to get him the ball and several other offensive threats on his team to keep the defense honest.

Barnes ended up shooting 44% FG and 35.8% 3-pt FG.
In conference games, even a bit lower....43.2% FG and 33.9% 3-pt FG.
Is this the profile of a top ten draft pick, potential star?

Most mock drafts have him going between 7 and 10. But I listened to Steve Kerr, former Suns GM, on ESPN Radio talking about draft prospects after the Elite Eight. He said that Barnes' performance in the 2 games without Marshall confirmed doubts about his ability to create his own shot, especially anything more than one or two dribbles and pulling up, and probably dropped him 10 spots in the draft as a result. In Kerr's mind, this was Top 5 to Top 15, and he went on to say that Barnes would only be a "value pick" around 15 or so, and that picking him in the Top 5 was the kind of move that gets GMs fired. So a slightly harsher view than most perhaps, but also likely to be more objective.

Most of the on-line draft gurus, Chad Ford included, tend to troll on the same, relatively narrow information they can glean from NBA scouts and GMs. Ford does have better contacts than most, but even his are pretty limited. Many NBA teams forbid tor tightly limit their personnel from speaking to the media on scouting matters, even off the record. The quality of scouting also varies dramatically around the league, and many of the quotes that Ford and others post suggest that the sources haven't really seen various kids play live very much.

Sgt. Dingleberry
04-10-2012, 10:19 AM
Lol. good.

Billy, questions for you and others who follow the NBA closely:

What is the likely area for HB's draft position?
Do you see him being successful in the league? To what degree?

I think the key to the Pigeon succeeding at the next level will be his ability to hit the 3 point shot. The surprising part about the Pigeon's game this year, to me, was his inability to get to the rim and his mediocre percentage from 3. He was successful at the college level because of his height. He was simply able to shoot over people. In the NBA, at the 3, he is not going to be able to get by on his height alone. He is either going to have to develop his handle or his 3 point shot.

I can't think of too many 3's in the NBA who are spot up jump shooters from inside the arc. Your shot needs to translate to beyond the 3 point line if you are primarily a jump shooter. I can't see the Pigeon bringing that much on the defensive end or on the glass. His offense will need to carry him.

Jderf
04-10-2012, 10:23 AM
Is this the profile of a top ten draft pick, potential star?


Most mock drafts have him going between 7 and 10. But I listened to Steve Kerr, former Suns GM, on ESPN Radio talking about draft prospects after the Elite Eight. He said that Barnes' performance in the 2 games without Marshall confirmed doubts about his ability to create his own shot, especially anything more than one or two dribbles and pulling up, and probably dropped him 10 spots in the draft as a result. In Kerr's mind, this was Top 5 to Top 15, and he went on to say that Barnes would only be a "value pick" around 15 or so, and that picking him in the Top 5 was the kind of move that gets GMs fired. So a slightly harsher view than most perhaps, but also likely to be more objective.

Yeah, I'd say that's a very good summary of his draft prospects. As for his potential career (and I'm trying to put out an olive branch here :)), I think most expect him to be a good-but-not-great shooting guard. I'd bet that he'll stick around the league for quite a long time and maybe even make a few all-star games in his best years. But personally, apart from that, I doubt his career is going to be very "illustrious."

Billy Dat
04-10-2012, 10:24 AM
Lol. good.

Billy, questions for you and others who follow the NBA closely:

What is the likely area for HB's draft position?
Do you see him being successful in the league? To what degree?

Frankly, I don't like the guy, so I have a hard time being objective about him as a pure basketball player.
I hear and read that he's a good shooter and scorer, who's got the size and ability to do well in the pro game.
Yet, I look at his performance this past year in Chapel Hill, where he had very favorable conditions for scoring...a great PG to get him the ball and several other offensive threats on his team to keep the defense honest.

Barnes ended up shooting 44% FG and 35.8% 3-pt FG.
In conference games, even a bit lower....43.2% FG and 33.9% 3-pt FG.
Is this the profile of a top ten draft pick, potential star?

I would love to forecast doom and gloom for the Black Pigeon in the NBA but such talk is, unfortunately, very premature.

Addressing some of your specific questions:

-The NBA draft is quirky because, as many pundits love to proclaim, you only need to find one team to fall in love with you. The Pigeon is projected to go in the Top 10 and I certainly think he will. People's memories get shorter when they want to fall in love with a player and he is sure to impress at tryouts, and in interviews. Depending on how the lottery shakes out, I think he'll easily be a top 10 pick.

-As to how successful he'll be, that, too, is hard to predict. While there are dozens, if not hundreds, of examples I could argue for guys who are better pros than college players, and vice versa, to support whatever theory I was trying to espouse, one that I am very pleased about this NBA season is Iman Shumpert. As a Knicks fan, I was hoping they would go after Florida State's Chris Singleton, the two time reigning ACC defensive player of the year, to help their historically pathetic defense under Mike D'Antoni. Instead, the Knicks seemed more interested in Shumpert, who never really turned my head at Tech. The Knicks went with Shumpert and the Wizards took Singleton with the very next pick, and I complained to all my friends that the Knicks made a huge mistake. Meanwhile, Shumpert has been fantastic with the Knicks while turning into one of the best young defenders in the NBA while Singleton has come along much more slowly for one of the worst teams in the NBA. There are so many factors at play in each scenario - Shumpert was given lots of PT early on and the Knicks have a much better culture than the Wizards in terms of veteran leadership. NBA expert David Thorpe, who writes for ESPN but also is one of the hired guns who gets guys ready for the draft and trains vets in the offseason, often talks about giving players - "The Royal Jelly", which is his metaphor for the nuturing of young talent - a combination of coaching, confidence building, mentoring and overall shaping. If Chris Singleton, for example, had been drafted by the Spurs, might he be making a similar impact to what Kawhi Leonard out of SDSU is doing (he's a key cog for a Spurs team that looks title ready again).

-So, if Barnes winds up in the right place and gets the Royal Jelly, there is also the question of his mental make-up. Will he recognize what an naive tool he's been with all his brand talk and corporate image manipulation and get down to the business of building his brand by becoming a hell raiser on the court? Will the fact that he came up short at UNC, based on expectations he happily played up, ignite a rabid desire to be as great as he can be - a trait shared by most of the great players? That's up to him.

That's a long way to say that he's certainly got the tools to be a really good NBA player. I don't think what we saw once Marshall went out is a fair depiction of his NBA potential. But, much will be determined by which team picks him, and whether or not he starts to focus more on his game and less on his brand.

Jderf
04-10-2012, 10:28 AM
I think the key to the Pigeon succeeding at the next level will be his ability to hit the 3 point shot. The surprising part about the Pigeon's game this year, to me, was his inability to get to the rim and his mediocre percentage from 3. He was successful at the college level because of his height. He was simply able to shoot over people. In the NBA, at the 3, he is not going to be able to get by on his height alone. He is either going to have to develop his handle or his 3 point shot.

I can't think of too many 3's in the NBA who are spot up jump shooters from inside the arc. Your shot needs to translate to beyond the 3 point line if you are primarily a jump shooter. I can't see the Pigeon bringing that much on the defensive end or on the glass. His offense will need to carry him.

Hmm. Here's a question. In the NBA, does Harry end up at the 3 or the 2?

I would think that, due to his skill set and the issues you pointed out, he'd have to end up being a shooting guard with great size. But I am open to changing my mind.

Duvall
04-10-2012, 10:31 AM
Hmm. Here's a question. In the NBA, does Harry end up at the 3 or the 2?

I would think that, due to his skill set and the issues you pointed out, he'd have to end up being a shooting guard with great size. But I welcome other opinions.

Is there room in the NBA for a shooting guard with only an adequate-for-college handle, even at 6-8?

roywhite
04-10-2012, 10:34 AM
-As to how successful he'll be, that, too, is hard to predict. While there are dozens, if not hundreds, of examples I could argue for guys who are better pros than college players, and vice versa, to support whatever theory I was trying to espouse, one that I am very pleased about this NBA season is Iman Shumpert. As a Knicks fan, I was hoping they would go after Florida State's Chris Singleton, the two time reigning ACC defensive player of the year, to help their historically pathetic defense under Mike D'Antoni. Instead, the Knicks seemed more interested in Shumpert, who never really turned my head at Tech. The Knicks went with Shumpert and the Wizards took Singleton with the very next pick, and I complained to all my friends that the Knicks made a huge mistake. Meanwhile, Shumpert has been fantastic with the Knicks while turning into one of the best young defenders in the NBA while Singleton has come along much more slowly for one of the worst teams in the NBA. There are so many factors at play in each scenario - Shumpert was given lots of PT early on and the Knicks have a much better culture than the Wizards in terms of veteran leadership. NBA expert David Thorpe, who writes for ESPN but also is one of the hired guns who gets guys ready for the draft and trains vets in the offseason, often talks about giving players - "The Royal Jelly", which is his metaphor for the nuturing of young talent - a combination of coaching, confidence building, mentoring and overall shaping. If Chris Singleton, for example, had been drafted by the Spurs, might he be making a similar impact to what Kawhi Leonard out of SDSU is doing (he's a key cog for a Spurs team that looks title ready again).

-So, if Barnes winds up in the right place and gets the Royal Jelly, there is also the question of his mental make-up. Will he recognize what an naive tool he's been with all his brand talk and corporate image manipulation and get down to the business of building his brand by becoming a hell raiser on the court? Will the fact that he came up short at UNC, based on expectations he happily played up, ignite a rabid desire to be as great as he can be - a trait shared by most of the great players? That's up to him.

That's a long way to say that he's certainly got the tools to be a really good NBA player. I don't think what we saw once Marshall went out is a fair depiction of his NBA potential. But, much will be determined by which team picks him, and whether or not he starts to focus more on his game and less on his brand.


Thanks for the response.

Checked out some background on Shumpert; he was taken 17th in the draft; in college, his shooting percentages in college were even lower than those of Barnes.
I do recall that he had one (or two?) monster games against UNC.
He now shows every indication of being a rising star in the NBA; another example of the difficulty in predicting such things even for the professional evaluators.

Jderf
04-10-2012, 10:35 AM
Is there room in the NBA for a shooting guard with only an adequate-for-college handle, even at 6-8?

But Duvall, we're talking about the most driven player that the hall-of-fame-coach, Roy Williams, has ever seen! Surely he can improve that handle with just a little of that famous work ethic.

moonpie23
04-10-2012, 10:41 AM
Is there room in the NBA for a shooting guard with only an adequate-for-college handle, even at 6-8?

ix-nay......his handle was suspect even for college...


i don't make a lot of predictions, but it won't surprise me if he's abused his rookie year......he already thinks he can play with the big boys.....i think a few games of the big boys stuffing his shot back in his face and then blowing by him for the highlight reel will cause great depression in his "brand".....stock holders will be unhappy...

FerryFor50
04-10-2012, 10:50 AM
He reminds me of Brandon Rush, but a Brandon Rush that doesn't play defense.

Which means he'll find a spot in the league but won't be a star unless he drastically improves his game.

luvdahops
04-10-2012, 10:59 AM
Lack of quickness, something that can't be easily fixed, will limit his potential. Even more than his handle, this is what limits HB's ability to create and score in multiple ways. Plenty of college 3s with average to suspect handles find a way to get to the rim consistently. Barnes never. The lack of quickness will also prevent him from ever competently defending 3s and especially 2s at the next level. I suspect he will be a solid to good scorer, especially on a team with a strong PG, especially if he can increase his range to hit 3s consistently. But ultimately, he simply does not have the overall athleticism to be a real star. I see his ceiling as starter on a bad team, high value role player on a contender. Won't ever sniff an All-Star game though.

Starter
04-10-2012, 11:05 AM
Shumpert's a flawed player, but a valuable one. He shot under 40 percent in college and is predictably doing that in the pros, but he plays defense like a fiend. He harassed the heck out of Derrick Rose the other day, which isn't easy to do. Consider him Donnie Walsh's last gift to the Knicks before his administration of competence and respectability was replaced by one of opaqueness and wretchedness.

Jury's out on Barnes. He's got the skills, depends whether he can develop his defense and handle into something better than it is right now, while getting stronger at the same time. If he hones his shot, he kind of reminds me of Rashard Lewis, who was a very capable player by his second season out of high school. Of course, Lewis had more natural ability and a couple inches on Barnes. Maybe the best case scenario here is Danilo Gallinari? His defense and ability to drive were questioned as well coming into the league, and now they're strengths.

Or Barnes could wash out. Or he could have a relatively long and undistinguished career, like Danny Ferry. It's too early to tell.

Sgt. Dingleberry
04-10-2012, 11:15 AM
But ultimately, he simply does not have the overall athleticism to be a real star. I see his ceiling as starter on a bad team, high value role player on a contender.

If I had to bet money, I would go something along these lines. I could see him scoring at a decent clip (16 ppg) for the Bobcats or the Wizards of the world, but if he is on a better team, I can't see him being able to carry that much of the load at an efficient clip.

As Billy said, the coop that the Pigeon flies into will have a huge impact on how his game translates.

moonpie23
04-10-2012, 11:50 AM
2544


more like this...

FerryFor50
04-10-2012, 11:53 AM
Shumpert's a flawed player, but a valuable one. He shot under 40 percent in college and is predictably doing that in the pros, but he plays defense like a fiend. He harassed the heck out of Derrick Rose the other day, which isn't easy to do. Consider him Donnie Walsh's last gift to the Knicks before his administration of competence and respectability was replaced by one of opaqueness and wretchedness.

Jury's out on Barnes. He's got the skills, depends whether he can develop his defense and handle into something better than it is right now, while getting stronger at the same time. If he hones his shot, he kind of reminds me of Rashard Lewis, who was a very capable player by his second season out of high school. Of course, Lewis had more natural ability and a couple inches on Barnes. Maybe the best case scenario here is Danilo Gallinari? His defense and ability to drive were questioned as well coming into the league, and now they're strengths.

Or Barnes could wash out. Or he could have a relatively long and undistinguished career, like Danny Ferry. It's too early to tell.

All the players you listed are 6'10" or greater. Barnes is 6'8"... Can't see him being as good as the other guys you listed.

Starter
04-10-2012, 12:00 PM
All the players you listed are 6'10" or greater. Barnes is 6'8"... Can't see him being as good as the other guys you listed.

Also, apropos of nothing, Gallinari and Lewis have the same birthday, as does Will Avery, Dustin Hoffman and yours truly.

Anyway, it's true, all those guys are taller than Barnes. His game just reminds me of theirs, that's all -- or at least, what he could potentially be on the next level given the skills and body he brings to the table. I agree that he probably won't be as good as Gallinari and Lewis (at his peak). Ferry, he has a shot at.

FerryFor50
04-10-2012, 12:11 PM
Also, apropos of nothing, Gallinari and Lewis have the same birthday, as does Will Avery, Dustin Hoffman and yours truly.

Anyway, it's true, all those guys are taller than Barnes. His game just reminds me of theirs, that's all -- or at least, what he could potentially be on the next level given the skills and body he brings to the table. I agree that he probably won't be as good as Gallinari and Lewis (at his peak). Ferry, he has a shot at.

Fair enough. My point was mainly that he'll have more trouble getting off his shot than Lewis or Dano do. Ferry, while sad to admit, is the lesser player of that group and definitely fits as a projection for Barnes.

The real question here is, though... Since you share birthdays do you also have to share your cake?

Duvall
04-10-2012, 12:19 PM
Also, apropos of nothing, Gallinari and Lewis have the same birthday, as does Will Avery, Dustin Hoffman and yours truly.

Anyway, it's true, all those guys are taller than Barnes. His game just reminds me of theirs, that's all -- or at least, what he could potentially be on the next level given the skills and body he brings to the table. I agree that he probably won't be as good as Gallinari and Lewis (at his peak). Ferry, he has a shot at.

Based on what, though? Ferry was a much better player as a sophomore than anything we've seen out of Barnes to date.

miramar
04-10-2012, 12:27 PM
In Kerr's mind, this was Top 5 to Top 15, and he went on to say that Barnes would only be a "value pick" around 15 or so, and that picking him in the Top 5 was the kind of move that gets GMs fired. So a slightly harsher view than most perhaps, but also likely to be more objective.

I'm sure none of us ever saw the Pigeon as a potential value pick. I guess that makes him the Costco of draft choices.

Considering that he's so brand conscious, don't be surprised if he changes his middle name from Jordan to Kirkland.

Starter
04-10-2012, 12:28 PM
Based on what, though? Ferry was a much better player as a sophomore than anything we've seen out of Barnes to date.

Based on that Ferry averaged seven points a game for his career. The bar's set pretty low, and it's not like Barnes is bereft of talent. It's Ferry's longevity, of course, that Barnes actually should hope to match.

Starter
04-10-2012, 12:30 PM
Fair enough. My point was mainly that he'll have more trouble getting off his shot than Lewis or Dano do. Ferry, while sad to admit, is the lesser player of that group and definitely fits as a projection for Barnes.

The real question here is, though... Since you share birthdays do you also have to share your cake?

Yup, we're on the same page. I'd worry about getting off a shot if I'm Barnes as well.

I'd gladly share cake with any of them. But not Scott Stapp. (Also Aug. 8)

FerryFor50
04-10-2012, 12:56 PM
Yup, we're on the same page. I'd worry about getting off a shot if I'm Barnes as well.

I'd gladly share cake with any of them. But not Scott Stapp. (Also Aug. 8)

Yea, that guy sucks.

1 24 90
04-10-2012, 01:00 PM
Yup, we're on the same page. I'd worry about getting off a shot if I'm Barnes as well.

I'd gladly share cake with any of them. But not Scott Stapp. (Also Aug. 8)

I knew that date rang a bell. You also share a birthday with Roger Federer. (although I prefer Rafael Nadal)

WiJoe
04-10-2012, 05:26 PM
mmmmmmmmm. pigeon


2545

Kdogg
04-11-2012, 06:30 AM
Jury's out on Barnes. He's got the skills, depends whether he can develop his defense and handle into something better than it is right now, while getting stronger at the same time. If he hones his shot, he kind of reminds me of Rashard Lewis, who was a very capable player by his second season out of high school. Of course, Lewis had more natural ability and a couple inches on Barnes. Maybe the best case scenario here is Danilo Gallinari? His defense and ability to drive were questioned as well coming into the league, and now they're strengths.

Or Barnes could wash out. Or he could have a relatively long and undistinguished career, like Danny Ferry. It's too early to tell.

Barnes reminds me more of Mike Miller than Gallinari. Miller's not a super star but has had a solid NBA career.

roywhite
04-11-2012, 07:25 AM
Barnes reminds me more of Mike Miller than Gallinari. Miller's not a super star but has had a solid NBA career.

I can see the Mike Miller comparison, but Miller is a better shooter.

This season, Miller is shooting over 47% from both the field and from 3-pt.
For his career, Miller has shot better than 40% from 3-pt.

I've mentioned this before, but Barnes shot 35.3% on 3's this past season, that from the college 3-pt line.
Seems like HB's main value will be as a jump shooter, and even in that area he will need to improve significantly to make an impact in the NBA.

DukeGirl4ever
04-11-2012, 04:33 PM
Wasn't sure where to put this...

Quinn's already got a better "Brand" than Harry!
Let me know when and where I can get one. Love it! :D

http://instagr.am/p/JStTYcOgTp/

SupaDave
04-11-2012, 05:02 PM
Barnes reminds me more of Mike Miller than Gallinari. Miller's not a super star but has had a solid NBA career.

I'll do you one better. Minus the girth - he's Brian Stith or Dennis Scott (although hardly as prolific as those guys). But mostly he's just Bob Sura...

Kdogg
04-11-2012, 07:12 PM
I'll do you one better. Minus the girth - he's Brian Stith or Dennis Scott (although hardly as prolific as those guys). But mostly he's just Bob Sura...

I have many fond memories of those guys (I'm guessing you are taking about Bryant Stith) and the ACC of that era. I hate to taint those memories will the association to Barnes. Miller on the other hand was a Duke miss and then beat us in the NCAAs.

Des Esseintes
04-11-2012, 07:58 PM
I can see the Mike Miller comparison, but Miller is a better shooter.

This season, Miller is shooting over 47% from both the field and from 3-pt.
For his career, Miller has shot better than 40% from 3-pt.

I've mentioned this before, but Barnes shot 35.3% on 3's this past season, that from the college 3-pt line.
Seems like HB's main value will be as a jump shooter, and even in that area he will need to improve significantly to make an impact in the NBA.

Miller is also a universe better as a passer than Barnes, and always has been.

BD80
04-11-2012, 08:06 PM
...


Miller is also a universe better as a passer than Barnes, and always has been.

How on earth can you say that?

Has anyone ever seen the "dirty pigeon" pass?

mgtr
04-11-2012, 08:41 PM
...



How on earth can you say that?

Has anyone ever seen the "dirty pigeon" pass?

Now, I understand who you mean by "dirty pigeon," but I also wonder if that is related to "dirty bird?" (As in well, I'll be a ...). Since a pigeon is sort of a "junk" bird, I would guess a dirty pigeon is lower in the "pecking" order than a dirty bird.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-12-2012, 07:05 AM
While you guys continue to obsess with HB, a future PG battle looms and UNC now has the inside track.

I heard he's already considering shocking the world by making his announcement with a hand written letter.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHwq7F...eature=youtu.be

moonpie23
04-12-2012, 07:27 AM
bad link signor weet....did u mean to have a dot between tu and be?

slower
04-12-2012, 08:33 AM
While you guys continue to obsess with HB, a future PG battle looms and UNC now has the inside track.

I heard he's already considering shocking the world by making his announcement with a hand written letter.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHwq7F...eature=youtu.be

For some reason, I find it humorous that your link contained a "malformed video ID"

superdave
04-12-2012, 08:41 AM
While you guys continue to obsess with HB, a future PG battle looms and UNC now has the inside track.

I heard he's already considering shocking the world by making his announcement with a hand written letter.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHwq7F...eature=youtu.be

So Roy has already lost confidence in Marcus Paige and Nate Britt? That was pretty fast.

MChambers
04-12-2012, 08:42 AM
I have many fond memories of those guys (I'm guessing you are taking about Bryant Stith) and the ACC of that era. I hate to taint those memories will the association to Barnes. Miller on the other hand was a Duke miss and then beat us in the NCAAs.

The Stith comparison is interesting. He was really much better at driving and drawing fouls, and had a lot of heart. I'd take him over Barnes any day. Pretty sure Duke recruited Stith.

roywhite
04-12-2012, 09:13 AM
The Stith comparison is interesting. He was really much better at driving and drawing fouls, and had a lot of heart. I'd take him over Barnes any day. Pretty sure Duke recruited Stith.

Yeah, K loved Stith. Recruited him, and then spoke very highly of him when he played at UVa.
He was one of those guys that K made a big point of spending a moment with in the handshake line.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-12-2012, 09:16 AM
For some reason, I find it humorous that your link contained a "malformed video ID"

Trying again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHwq7FCDJA0&feature=youtu.be

killerleft
04-12-2012, 09:17 AM
I'll do you one better. Minus the girth - he's Brian Stith or Dennis Scott (although hardly as prolific as those guys). But mostly he's just Bob Sura...

I think you very much insulted Bob Sura. Barnes is nowhere near the player Bob Sura was while Sura was in college. Plus Sura was both quicker and more athletic.

luvdahops
04-12-2012, 09:43 AM
I think you very much insulted Bob Sura. Barnes is nowhere near the player Bob Sura was while Sura was in college. Plus Sura was both quicker and more athletic.

Couldn't agree more. Sura was a terrific all-around player who regularly stuffed the stat sheet at FSU, and had the quickness and handle to credibly play point in the NBA. Dennis Scott is actually the best comparison I have heard, though he had much deeper range on his jumper upon entering the league.

grossbus
04-12-2012, 09:53 AM
"Trying again..."

cute. kid knows what he is doing out there. looks one and done to me, though.

Lid
04-12-2012, 09:54 AM
Trying again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHwq7FCDJA0&feature=youtu.be

I don't know. His defense looks pretty suspect. :)

flyingdutchdevil
04-12-2012, 10:46 AM
I don't know. His defense looks pretty suspect. :)

Plus, he seemed a little selfish with the ball. But I really like his handle!

Indoor66
04-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Couldn't agree more. Sura was a terrific all-around player who regularly stuffed the stat sheet at FSU, and had the quickness and handle to credibly play point in the NBA. Dennis Scott is actually the best comparison I have heard, though he had much deeper range on his jumper upon entering the league.

And remember, Sura was part of the Wine and Cheese game in '91. Barnes fits the Whine part.

SupaDave
04-12-2012, 11:33 AM
I think you very much insulted Bob Sura. Barnes is nowhere near the player Bob Sura was while Sura was in college. Plus Sura was both quicker and more athletic.


Couldn't agree more. Sura was a terrific all-around player who regularly stuffed the stat sheet at FSU, and had the quickness and handle to credibly play point in the NBA. Dennis Scott is actually the best comparison I have heard, though he had much deeper range on his jumper upon entering the league.

Honestly, I thought I was doing Sura a disservice myself but I was trying to consider style of play. Barnes COULD do what Sura did but it was so infrequent and random that it was hard to take seriously.

I actually really liked the Dennis Scott comparison and Scott was actually pretty slim in college and wanted to do nothing but shoot.

jimsumner
04-12-2012, 11:43 AM
Honestly, I thought I was doing Sura a disservice myself but I was trying to consider style of play. Barnes COULD do what Sura did but it was so infrequent and random that it was hard to take seriously.

I actually really liked the Dennis Scott comparison and Scott was actually pretty slim in college and wanted to do nothing but shoot.

Dennis Scott was one of the three or four best long-range shooters I've ever seen in the ACC. I don't see much of a comparison with Harrison Barnes.

And Sura was a stud.

Frankly, I see Barnes as a somewhat better Danny Green, who surprisingly--to me, at least--has turned into a decent NBA player. Danny Granger-lite?

BTW, the wine-and-cheese game was in 1992, FSU's first season in the ACC.

luvdahops
04-12-2012, 11:43 AM
Honestly, I thought I was doing Sura a disservice myself but I was trying to consider style of play. Barnes COULD do what Sura did but it was so infrequent and random that it was hard to take seriously.

I actually really liked the Dennis Scott comparison and Scott was actually pretty slim in college and wanted to do nothing but shoot.

Still disagree on Sura. As a junior, he averaged 21.2ppg, 7.9rpg, 4.5apg and 2.4spg, and got to the line almost 7 times a game. No way could I ever envision Barnes producing across the board like that. He has neither the skills or the athleticism. He and Sura are two completely different types of player.

SupaDave
04-12-2012, 03:06 PM
Dennis Scott was one of the three or four best long-range shooters I've ever seen in the ACC. I don't see much of a comparison with Harrison Barnes.

And Sura was a stud.

Frankly, I see Barnes as a somewhat better Danny Green, who surprisingly--to me, at least--has turned into a decent NBA player. Danny Granger-lite?

BTW, the wine-and-cheese game was in 1992, FSU's first season in the ACC.


Still disagree on Sura. As a junior, he averaged 21.2ppg, 7.9rpg, 4.5apg and 2.4spg, and got to the line almost 7 times a game. No way could I ever envision Barnes producing across the board like that. He has neither the skills or the athleticism. He and Sura are two completely different types of player.

The problem that comes in is that it's pretty hard to think of an ACC player that Barnes compares to hype wise b/c those guys were pretty good and cut their teeth for many years developing their games.

Most of the guys that have gotten the hype throughout the years have been stone cold killers. That's one of the reasons I could never understand why they chose to promote Barnes and not Zeller or Marshall. It's like they kept promoting this "what if?" factor almost. Like "tonight will be the night Barnes goes crazy!". It rarely happened.

I mean this IS a guy that's about to go in the first round of the draft based on SOMETHING. He's not chopped liver but I think that's more a statement of the quality of player in the NBA now... In 1990 Barnes would have done some damage (well maybe, what they lacked in athleticism they more than made up for in physicality).

Billy Dat
04-12-2012, 03:46 PM
Frankly, I see Barnes as a somewhat better Danny Green, who surprisingly--to me, at least--has turned into a decent NBA player. Danny Granger-lite?

The fact that Danny Green starts for a legit title contender is baffling, but that Spurs organization is amazing at evaluating talent to fit exactly what they want to do. Obviously, he is not better than Manu but since they established this rotation with Manu out, and Manu is a team-first guy, Manu now comes off the bench.

I think Danny Granger is an ok comp, but can we give Granger a little more credit by calling Green Danny Granger very lite?

roywhite
04-12-2012, 04:02 PM
The problem that comes in is that it's pretty hard to think of an ACC player that Barnes compares to hype wise b/c those guys were pretty good and cut their teeth for many years developing their games.

Most of the guys that have gotten the hype throughout the years have been stone cold killers. That's one of the reasons I could never understand why they chose to promote Barnes and not Zeller or Marshall. It's like they kept promoting this "what if?" factor almost. Like "tonight will be the night Barnes goes crazy!". It rarely happened.

I mean this IS a guy that's about to go in the first round of the draft based on SOMETHING. He's not chopped liver but I think that's more a statement of the quality of player in the NBA now... In 1990 Barnes would have done some damage (well maybe, what they lacked in athleticism they more than made up for in physicality).

To be fair, there are some Duke players who didn't live up to the hype or accolades they received as prep players.
Chris Burgess, Ricky Price, and Shavlik Randolph come to mind. Circumstances differ, but I think it's fair to say we, as fans, expected more from those guys.
It's not particularly fair to trash guys for failing to live up to someone else's expectations, but it happens often in sports. They wanted to succeed and tried, but didn't become stars.

One factor in taking shots at Barnes is that, in his case, he really did help create the hype and expectations.
At this point, I'm mostly just curious as to how he will do in the NBA; conceivably, he could end up as a bench player or a star, really don't know.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Frankly, I see Barnes as a somewhat better Danny Green, who surprisingly--to me, at least--has turned into a decent NBA player. Danny Granger-lite?

BTW, the wine-and-cheese game was in 1992, FSU's first season in the ACC.

I will have to disagree here, Jim.

To me, Sr. Danny Green was a better overall player than I saw as a soph from HB. But to be fair, we also should remember HB is a substantially bigger player than Green if we want to compare their games.

The step back jumper is a deadly shot that HB can get off almost at will. He didn't really look to shoot it as much as he could have in the UNC system this year, but I suspect that a lot of his NBA value is based on the potential of that shot.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-12-2012, 06:18 PM
One factor in taking shots at Barnes is that, in his case, he really did help create the hype and expectations.
At this point, I'm mostly just curious as to how he will do in the NBA; conceivably, he could end up as a bench player or a star, really don't know.


All the top HS kids are playing the hype game these days. They are stars whether we think they should be or not. Heck, Noel just led everyone on at Georgetown and announced for UK with his haircut, for crying out loud....

I have the same curiousity about HB's hoops future as you do. I really don't have a feel for him as a player even after two years.

oldnavy
04-13-2012, 08:49 AM
All the top HS kids are playing the hype game these days. They are stars whether we think they should be or not. Heck, Noel just led everyone on at Georgetown and announced for UK with his haircut, for crying out loud....

I have the same curiousity about HB's hoops future as you do. I really don't have a feel for him as a player even after two years.

True the trend is pointed that way. Style over substance and all that. But you have to admit that Harrison Barnes embraced it a little more enthusiastically than most.

Also, the media has looked foolish with its coverage of HB. First they vote him to AA status before he even plays a game. Then as if they have to justify their mistake, they keep pumping him up even after it becomes clear that he is not going to reach the unreachable standards they set for him.

I cannot tell you how many times I heard various TV announcers talk about Barnes when he was being mediocre on the floor. Meanwhile, Tyler Zeller is busting his bottom and carrying the team. In one game, I forget which one, at the end of the half, Barnes gets two garbage type baskets to either extend a small UNC lead or cut a small deficeit. I believe at the time those two baskets gave Barnes 8 points for the half, while Zeller had 16 or so. Anyway, as the game goes into the half, the announcers say something like "Barnes is heating up and keeping UNC in the game". I paraphrase, but that was the jest of it. I wanted to throw up. He had done nothing all half but stand around and then gets a couple of junk baskets by just being where the ball bounced, and all of a sudden he is the reason UNC is still in the game....

Barnes didn't help the situation with his mannerism either. He was so "scripted" on and off the court. I always had the feeling that if you could get him to exhale and just play the game without thinking how he would look or whatever was going on in his head, he would be amazing... it just never happened for more than a few minutes at a time.

Maybe he will loosen up as he matures, but maybe he won't. I would not bet on him at this point. I think he is an average to below average NBA player who bounces around for several years based on his "potential" until he passes that age where potential becomes failure to improve.... I think he will be sucessful financially because he seems smart enough to invest and not blow his money, but I do not see many endorsements or all star games in his future. I may be totally wrong btw.

gumbomoop
04-13-2012, 01:40 PM
I cannot tell you how many times I heard various TV announcers talk about Barnes when he was being mediocre on the floor. Meanwhile, Tyler Zeller is busting his bottom and carrying the team. In one game, I forget which one, at the end of the half, Barnes gets two garbage type baskets to either extend a small UNC lead or cut a small deficeit. I believe at the time those two baskets gave Barnes 8 points for the half, while Zeller had 16 or so. Anyway, as the game goes into the half, the announcers say something like "Barnes is heating up and keeping UNC in the game". I paraphrase, but that was the jest of it.

The announcers were joking, then, trying to cope with Barnes's strange lethargy in the only way they knew how, with sarcasm.

Possibly.

oldnavy
04-15-2012, 08:07 AM
The announcers were joking, then, trying to cope with Barnes's strange lethargy in the only way they knew how, with sarcasm.

Possibly.

It was a joke, but I don't believe it was intentional.... I really meant to say "gist"..... english is my second language... I don't have a primary one! ;)

gumbomoop
04-26-2012, 04:58 PM
I've imported this from the "Roy's Greatest Hits" thread.


I get that Duke fans are bitter about the way that Barnes chose his school but any rational fan has to admit that the kid played well for Carolina even if you think he ended up not being what some might have hoped.

Had Barnes chosen to come to Duke, and had he played roughly the same as how he played at UNC, I think that I'd have posted the same sort of comments that in fact I did, intermittently, re his game. Namely, sweet shooter, good defender on the occasions he tried to be, strangely unwilling to crash the boards, mediocre handle that was his biggest, and such an obvious, flaw. Undoubtedly I'd have gushed over his shot, and would have been hopeful that he'd improve his handle, so he could be near-unstoppable. I'd have praised his desire to take the last shot in tight games. I'd have accentuated the positive, of which there was just enough to imagine, "He's getting there, he can still be great."

More difficult to make an honest guess as to how I [and others] would have dealt with his self-obsessing [B]persona. Some very embarrassing cringe-factors: Black Falcon, "I'm That Guy," phone calls to Goodman his frosh year seeking reassurance he could still be NPOY, occasional petulant behavior on the court, branding.

No way of knowing for sure whether Barnes would have behaved, as a Blue Devil, the way he behaved as a Heel. But absent a change in the direction of humility [his, and mine, too, now I think about it], my semi-honest guess is that I would have been embarrassed for him, and might - might - delicately have admitted some discomfort about such things. But I might simply have pulled the covers over my head. I might have tried to excuse his behavior.

Just as Carolina fans are surely relieved that Kyrie wasn't able to lead the Devils to the NC, so Duke fans, with some justification - surely this is obvious - are happy the way things worked out for Barnes.

oldnavy
04-27-2012, 05:41 AM
I've imported this from the "Roy's Greatest Hits" thread.



Had Barnes chosen to come to Duke, and had he played roughly the same as how he played at UNC, I think that I'd have posted the same sort of comments that in fact I did, intermittently, re his game. Namely, sweet shooter, good defender on the occasions he tried to be, strangely unwilling to crash the boards, mediocre handle that was his biggest, and such an obvious, flaw. Undoubtedly I'd have gushed over his shot, and would have been hopeful that he'd improve his handle, so he could be near-unstoppable. I'd have praised his desire to take the last shot in tight games. I'd have accentuated the positive, of which there was just enough to imagine, "He's getting there, he can still be great."

More difficult to make an honest guess as to how I [and others] would have dealt with his self-obsessing [B]persona. Some very embarrassing cringe-factors: Black Falcon, "I'm That Guy," phone calls to Goodman his frosh year seeking reassurance he could still be NPOY, occasional petulant behavior on the court, branding.

No way of knowing for sure whether Barnes would have behaved, as a Blue Devil, the way he behaved as a Heel. But absent a change in the direction of humility [his, and mine, too, now I think about it], my semi-honest guess is that I would have been embarrassed for him, and might - might - delicately have admitted some discomfort about such things. But I might simply have pulled the covers over my head. I might have tried to excuse his behavior.

Just as Carolina fans are surely relieved that Kyrie wasn't able to lead the Devils to the NC, so Duke fans, with some justification - surely this is obvious - are happy the way things worked out for Barnes.

Every time I hear Barnes and Brand I am reminded that SPAM is a brand also.... just saying.

wk2109
04-27-2012, 03:11 PM
For all his talk about leaving a legacy at Carolina, I wonder where he ranks among the greatest UNC players of all time. Is he even top 30? How about among early-entry UNC guys? Does he make top 10?

I'm actually very curious about where UNC fans, or anyone with more knowledge about UNC basketball history than I, would rank him.

Duvall
04-27-2012, 06:00 PM
For all his talk about leaving a legacy at Carolina, I wonder where he ranks among the greatest UNC players of all time. Is he even top 30? How about among early-entry UNC guys? Does he make top 10?

I'm actually very curious about where UNC fans, or anyone with more knowledge about UNC basketball history than I, would rank him.

Top 50, maybe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men's_basketball_ players[/url) And even that's a stretch.