2012 Final Four Thread: Kentucky vs Kansas

[Newton_14]

Use this thread to discuss the week leading up to the Final Four. I will put up a pre and in-game thread for each game later in the week.
Congrats to our guy Greg Paulus!

[1 24 90]

Surprised that Kentucky Louisville is the first game. I get that Kansas OSU should be more competitive but it seems to me that Kentucky is the marquee team in the final four. I guess they think they'll get to see Kentucky Monday night too.

And I didn't even originally mention Pitino vs. Calipari is more intriguing than Self vs. Matta.

[uh_no]

Surprised that Kentucky Louisville is the first game. I get that Kansas OSU should be more competitive but it seems to me that Kentucky is the marquee team in the final four. I guess they think they'll get to see Kentucky Monday night too.

OSU/KU is a much broader regional appeal, which is why i'd guess it's the second game

[hurleyfor3]

Please. UK vs. UL. If that's not the second biggest rivalry in college basketball, what is? The superdome will be like half full for kansas/tosu.

[uh_no]

Please. UK vs. UL. If that's not the second biggest rivalry in college basketball, what is? The superdome will be like half full for kansas/tosu.

thus people will watch UL/UK anyway....meaning the evening slot is for the game that will likely actually benefit from being in the evening slot.....i guess i mean the ratings delta of UL/UK between the afternoon/evening slot is less than the delta of osu/ku...so they get more overall viewers with this setup

[hurleyfor3]

That's not how it works. You don't put American Idol on at 4 am because you know people will just watch primetime teevee anyway.

[CDu]

Louisville has no business staying in this game. They're just overmatched at every position. And despite that, I'm sure Pitino will make it a game.

UK just has so many weapons, so much length and athleticism, so many capable ballhandlers, and perhaps just enough shooting that I really wonder if any of the remaining teams can beat them. They have to be the heavy favorites.

[uh_no]

That's not how it works. You don't put American Idol on at 4 am because you know people will just watch primetime teevee anyway.

we're talking about 6pm and 9pm.....of course there's a point of diminishing returns....

[Chris Randolph]

Kentucky handles the 'ville. OSU gets revenge on KU. Kentucky cuts down the nets Monday night

[Atlanta Duke]

Kentucky native Mark Bradley of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution puts in perspective for us the fear and loathing with which Cats fans approach playing Louisville and Pitino

In the mind of Kentucky fans, there could be no greater indignity than the thought of these mighty Wildcats arriving at the 2012 Final Four and being undone not just by Louisville but by a Louisville team coached by Rick Pitino. It would be worse than Christian Laettner undoing the Unforgettables as coached by Pitino. It would be …

It would be like Laettner’s school (Duke) losing to North Carolina in the Final Four — with Mike Krzyzewski coaching the Tar Heels.:D

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2012/03/25/whos-afraid-of-louisville-and-pitino-not-caliparis-cats/?cxntfid=blogs_mark_bradley_blog

[LSanders]

Fortunately, none of the 1 'n done Cats have a sense of history (or take history for that matter). Pitino's a better coach and motivator. We'll see.

Currently, Kansas is my second favorite team, but Louisville could easily move into that spot with a win.

[weezie]

Fortunately, none of the 1 'n done Cats have a sense of history (or take history for that matter).

Or can spell history btw.
Whatevs, ky tags home next Monday night.

[dukelifer]

Or can spell history btw.
Whatevs, ky tags home next Monday night.

And the NCAA investigation starts Tuesday

[COYS]

Louisville is slightly over-matched, but I don't think they are completely outclassed. They fought hard against UK in the annual rivalry game on Dec. 31 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=313650096). They managed to hold the Wildcats to slightly under 30% shooting, overall, but lost because they didn't shoot much better (32%) and got trounced on the boards 28-49. Louisville has KenPom's top-ranked defense and, if they are able to force UK into a similarly poor shooting performance, grab a few more boards than last time, and hit a few more shots, they definitely have a chance to pull off the upset. On the other hand, if the Wildcats can hit at a decent clip from three point range (which is no guarantee), then I think UK's superior offense and strong defense will be too much combined for the Cardinals.

I agree with those who say that this game is maybe second only to a Duke/UNC Final Four matchup, though, in terms of rivalry implications . . . and with Pitino coaching Louisville! Wow.

[CDu]

Louisville is slightly over-matched, but I don't think they are completely outclassed. They fought hard against UK in the annual rivalry game on Dec. 31 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=313650096). They managed to hold the Wildcats to slightly under 30% shooting, overall, but lost because they didn't shoot much better (32%) and got trounced on the boards 28-49. Louisville has KenPom's top-ranked defense and, if they are able to force UK into a similarly poor shooting performance, grab a few more boards than last time, and hit a few more shots, they definitely have a chance to pull off the upset. On the other hand, if the Wildcats can hit at a decent clip from three point range (which is no guarantee), then I think UK's superior offense and strong defense will be too much combined for the Cardinals.

I agree with those who say that this game is maybe second only to a Duke/UNC Final Four matchup, though, in terms of rivalry implications . . . and with Pitino coaching Louisville! Wow.

The problem for Louisville is that the rebound margin isn't an anomaly. They play much smaller than UK (especially on the wings). They'll need to force turnovers and hit shots at a high rate to win, because UK is more talented at every spot on the floor. UK has MUCH more margin for error than Louisville, whose offense is generally offensive.

Louisville can win, but they have no business doing so. If UK comes to play and hits some shots, they'll win.

[tommy]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't recall a Final Four game ever in which the pressure was so much more on one team, and one coach, than where it will be on Saturday. The pressure on Kentucky and Calipari will just be immense. Why?

First of all, he's got the best team, by a lot. That team has a star at every position. They fit together perfectly as a unit. Thier top two players may be the two best players in the nation. They also have a senior sharpshooter coming off the bench. And a freshman one too, plus a few other bodies. They have all the bases covered. And if you saw their game against Baylor, they are peaking right now. They blew Baylor's doors off.

Second, he's never won it. He's had other excellent teams, including last year's, that many thought would go the distance, and he hasn't done it. If he fails with this team, this perfect team, the howls of "can't win the big one" will get a lot louder.

Third, the path to the championship has been cleared, or at least cleared as much as it reasonably could be. They're playing a 4-seed in the Final Four, when it could've been Michigan State or Missouri. In the finals, the only team that approaches UK in talent -- Carolina-- only with experience and coaching, got knocked out, so UK obviously doesn't have to face the one team that many thought was its equal or even its superior.

Fourth, it's Louisville. Hated in-state rival who UK looks at as a little brother. Would be humiliating to lose to them on the biggest stage.

Fifth, this is a good Louisville team, but what were they, 7th or something in the Big East?

Sixth, it's Rick Pitino. (this belongs higher on the list) Former UK coach. Former UK coach who DID win the big one, and then had the audacity to come back to college hoops and coach UK's biggest rival. Oh, and he's also Calipari's mentor, with whom his relationship is said to be a little . . . frosty.

Come Saturday afternoon, (or maybe it's started already) I think Calipari is going to be pooping the seat of his Armani suit.

[-jk]

Quite a game goin' on. I'm still doubtful Pitino's kids can pull it off, but they're keeping it interesting.

-jk

[tommy]

Quite a game goin' on. I'm still doubtful Pitino's kids can pull it off, but they're keeping it interesting.

-jk

Seems like Kentucky has an answer for any challenge or run Louisville makes, but if the Cardinals can keep it close down to the 5-6 minute mark, Kentucky's collars are going to get awfully tight.

[gotoguy]

good half for the Cardinals in the orange unis . If they quit making so many dumb turnovers they may have a chance. Defensive intensity like I wish the Devils would play on both ends.

[mgtr]

Louisville always surprises me how they hang around and then make a game of it at the end. Now watch UK prove me wrong in the second half. They have a lot of weapons. However, I am rooting for Louisville and against Calimari.

[mapei]

I love watching Anthony Davis - he's as fundamentally sound as any freshman I've ever seen. And I don't particularly care who wins, since all the teams I love or hate are long gone from this tournament.

[dcdrumsinc]

Im just going for any team except kentucky. If kentucky wins it all with a group of mainly star freshmen, it may change college basketball forever. Kentucky and calipari will only snowball and continue to have monopoly on the best talent, getting 5 mcdonald's all americans a year

[Dukehky]

It appears that the turning point in this game from within reach to over double digits was that missed call when Chris Smith was called for a reach on Darius Miller as opposed to a jump ball which it clearly was. It was Louisville ball down by 6 if they make the right call there. And right now, I see this getting out of hand.

[wgl1228]

I can't believe such an offensively inept team is only down by 6 to kentucky. All putbacks.

[J4Kop99]

Am I the only one who does not like Clark Kellogg as an announcer? I'd much rather have a guy like Raftery in there... I don't need somebody to tell me what is going on in the game or help break down a play. I can do that on my own. I like guys that keep it entertaining (especially on cuts to commercial breaks)

As for the games, I guess I would like a Louisville v. Kansas match-up. Anyone but Calipari.

[hurleyfor3]

Am I the only one who does not like Clark Kellogg as an announcer?

No. He just referred to Louisville as Syracuse.

[DukieTiger]

Im just going for any team except kentucky. If kentucky wins it all with a group of mainly star freshmen, it may change college basketball forever. Kentucky and calipari will only snowball and continue to have monopoly on the best talent, getting 5 mcdonald's all americans a year

I disagree with this line of thinking. If anything it will encourage more coaches/programs to try the Calipari strategy thereby giving him more competition for that "top talent" and making it harder for all of those teams to assemble such a collection of top talent. I think if Kentucky wins it will have negligible impact on college basketball, other than making Kentucky fans even more insufferable.

[J4Kop99]

Russ smith is doing his best russell Westbrook impression from last years playoffs... must be the first name.

[g-money]

The refs are letting these teams get away with a lot of contact. It is painful to watch.

[_Gary]

Russ smith is doing his best russell Westbrook impression from last years playoffs... must be the first name.

Yep. He singlehandedly killed Louisville when they had made the run to tie the game up. He has been nothing short of a ball hog and he's not made anything good happen that I can see in the 2nd half on the offensive end.

[heyman25]

I love watching Anthony Davis - he's as fundamentally sound as any freshman I've ever seen. And I don't particularly care who wins, since all the teams I love or hate are long gone from this tournament. Kentucky is a great college basketball team to watch. All of those who played have great skills and basketball instincts.Duke needs to continue to recruit this level of talent.I like to watch teams that can score, play defense , and play smart basketball.

I just heard Barkley say Kentucky did not play that well and they still won.

[Dukehky]

Even if Calipari winning wouldn't be bad for college basketball, I still don't want Kentucky to win. That being said, who do you think has a better shot at taking them down between Kansas and Ohio State? I'd love to see Kansas win, because by the transitive property of sports, that means that we're the best team in the country, and because Thomas Robinson is probably my favorite player in the country. But I think that Ohio State has way more variety scoring wise and Aaron Craft would give Teague fits, enough to hopefully disrupt the game without sacrificing defensive positioning like Louisville does with its pressure.

[Chris Randolph]

Kentucky got out worked, toughed, hustled, and hearted. And still won by 8. They are such a tough team with their trio of size/athleticism/skill. Louisville made multiple DUMB plays on offense once they tied the game and had it in a 5 point range in the last 7 minutes. Smith and Smith for the ville tried to do it on their own (selfish) and that killed the ville's momentum

I don't mind that Kentucky has a bunch of "one and dones." That is the nature of the college game. Even Calipari has said he doesn't like the rule but that is how college basketball is now. He'd be foolish not to recruit those guys because they are the best players in the country.

All that said I cannot stand the arrogance that Kentucky posseses. Before the game they were acting like it was a lock they would win and after the game acted like they'd won the whole thing. The players are cocky but most really good basketball players. Combine their cockiness with Calipari being a hot head and it is so much worse, haha. I think they will roll into Monday night overconfident and tighten up in the last 10 minutes and get beat, regardless of who the opponent is

[Chris Randolph]

Even if Calipari winning wouldn't be bad for college basketball, I still don't want Kentucky to win. That being said, who do you think has a better shot at taking them down between Kansas and Ohio State? I'd love to see Kansas win, because by the transitive property of sports, that means that we're the best team in the country, and because Thomas Robinson is probably my favorite player in the country. But I think that Ohio State has way more variety scoring wise and Aaron Craft would give Teague fits, enough to hopefully disrupt the game without sacrificing defensive positioning like Louisville does with its pressure.

I'd go with Kansas. They have a superstar, Robinson, and a guard who can create and hit open jumpers in Taylor. The X-factor would be Withey. He can rebound and block shots just as well as any big man, Ohio St doesn't have that. Kansas is not as athletics as UK but they aren't that far off. Kansas has been the best rebounding team in the tournament so far (especially on the offensive glass) and we saw how Louisville exploited that tonight

[mgtr]

I think that Calipari would be a great coach for the Knicks. Or (fill in the blank with any non-college team). Just get him out of college ball.

[NSDukeFan]

The refs are letting these teams get away with a lot of contact. It is painful to watch.

I didn't find it painful to watch and actually found it very entertaining. I am hoping for anyone but UK to win, but I really enjoy watching Kidd-Gilchrist (especially, may be my favorite non-Dukie to watch) and Davis play. I also enjoyed watching Pitino's strategy and the way he had his team battling. I thought he gave a great post-game interview as well. The flip side is that I agree completely that a lot of contact was allowed and Louisville especially got away with a lot. They could have been called for fouls in the back court on several occasions. Louisville battled, in more ways than one. I think that college basketball should make a change in the amount of contact allowed as unfortunately, I think the pro game (now that passing is back in fashion, after the awful 1-on-1 isolation 90s and since hand-checking now gets called) now probably a more exciting game. Not that being more exciting than the pro game is the reason for college ball, but there is no need for it to allow more contact than the professional game.

[MCFinARL]

No. He just referred to Louisville as Syracuse.

In his defense, he was probably confused by the bizarre color of the Louisville uniforms; nevertheless, this was an embarrassing gaffe.

[gumbomoop]

.... I really enjoy watching Kidd-Gilchrist (especially, may be my favorite non-Dukie to watch) and Davis play.

Agree on both. My favorite, from about mid-season last year, is Aaron Craft, who is an amazing defender: on-ball, footwork-for-position, absolutely fights through screens, quick recovery, fast hands, sneaky double-teamer. Brilliant defender.

Wonder whether Deshaun Thomas will continue his strong play?

[NSDukeFan]

Agree on both. My favorite, from about mid-season last year, is Aaron Craft, who is an amazing defender: on-ball, footwork-for-position, absolutely fights through screens, quick recovery, fast hands, sneaky double-teamer. Brilliant defender.

Wonder whether Deshaun Thomas will continue his strong play?

I haven't had a chance to see that much of Craft, but have enjoyed his play as well and hopefully will for two more wins this year.

Completely unrelated note: I was very happy to see Robbie Hummell win the Lowe's Senior Award. He is another guy I was definitely rooting for.

[1 24 90]

Much like Louisville in the first game, I don't think Kansas has the offense to keep up with OSU especially if OSU is hitting its 3's. They haven't been a great 3 point shooting team this year but have hit a lot in the tourney. I'm just waiting for Anthony Davis and friends to swat the smirks off of Sullinger and Craft.

[NashvilleDevil]

Im just going for any team except kentucky. If kentucky wins it all with a group of mainly star freshmen, it may change college basketball forever. Kentucky and calipari will only snowball and continue to have monopoly on the best talent, getting 5 mcdonald's all americans a year

They have to win first. That 08 Memphis team and the 10 Kentucky teams were also loaded and fell short. This team has a different feel but we'll see.

[NashvilleDevil]

My favorite, from about mid-season last year, is Aaron Craft, who is an amazing defender:

Craft has let me understand how fan bases dislike certain Duke players. I know if he played for Duke he'd be the most hated player in the country.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Craft has let me understand how fan bases dislike certain Duke players. I know if he played for Duke he'd be the most hated player in the country.

Agreed. The 2nd charge he took in the 1st half was clearly a flop. If he were wearing a Duke uniform, Kellogg would have said "I'm not sure about THAT one, Jim!".

[gumbomoop]

Craft has let me understand how fan bases dislike certain Duke players. I know if he played for Duke he'd be the most hated player in the country.


I'm just waiting for Anthony Davis and friends to swat the smirks off of Sullinger and Craft.

My response is going to sound a little snarky, but I mean it literally. I haven't noticed Craft being smirky, as I've looked less at his face than at his feet and hands, which work rather than smirk.

If he's obnoxious, he's still a great defender.

[ArtVandelay]

I actually don't mind Craft. Such a good player. I'll be honest -- I wrote him off earlier this season when he schooled us. I thought it was just us playing poorly. But he's legit. He's also a rare breed of college player in that it looks like he'll give OSU 3 years of elite level play with no risk of early entry (I assume). Sort of like Hansborough in that regard. Guys like that don't come around often.

[uh_no]

Kellog must have the lowest ratios of meaningful words to total spoken words in the free world....

"KU has to concern themselves with him while he's on the floor"

really clark? I figured KU would completely ignore him while on the floor and be concerned about him while he was riding the bench

[ArtVandelay]

Actually, as soon as I posted that, I realized the Hans-travel comparison was a bad one, as Craft is clearly not in that league. Anyway, my point remains that he's a very good player and the sort of guy you want to build programs around.

Also, what a game we have going.

[BobbyFan]

Kellog must have the lowest ratios of meaningful words to total spoken words in the free world....

"KU has to concern themselves with him while he's on the floor"

really clark? I figured KU would completely ignore him while on the floor and be concerned about him while he was riding the bench

He must be embarrassed to be outdone by Steve Kerr, an NBA guy, in these telecasts.

[uh_no]

He must be embarrassed to be outdone by Steve Kerr, an NBA guy, in these telecasts.

I don't think he realizes how horrific he sounds....Every time he speaks, a try to determine if he actually said anything with meaning....usually the answer is no

"here he is just trying to create something...and no"

thanks for that analysis clark...


the cliche's are worse than on DBR "he makes a free throw and maybe the basket gets a little bigger"

"louisville has lots of spurtability"

I'm sorry I'm polluting these boards with such riff raff....

[moonpie23]

this game is awesome.......kansas surging.....just as they did against the umm...last team they played...

[uh_no]

this game is awesome.......kansas surging.....just as they did against the umm...last team they played...

well bill self took out ol' roy again


lets hope he can take out calipari again....

[FerryFor50]

Absolutely atrocious travel call on Withey that took away a basket and a possible FT.

Will be a shame if KU loses because of that.

[moonpie23]

so....final two minutes you can take a guys head off and it's incidental contact.....but with 9 secs left there's a foul called if the guy just bumps you on the inbounds?

[J4Kop99]

oh... my... god.

HOLD ONTO THE BALL!

[dcdevil2009]

Absolutely atrocious travel call on Withey that took away a basket and a possible FT.

Will be a shame if KU loses because of that.

"But it wasn't a travel when Seth Curry did it," must not be a good excuse.

[J4Kop99]

Ahhh, Mr. Craft, not so smart after all?

[FerryFor50]

Ahhh, Mr. Craft, not so smart after all?

Was a very smart play. Just poorly executed.

[moonpie23]

wow.....horrible coaching by matta there....

[J4Kop99]

Was a very smart play. Just poorly executed.

It's an interesting idea. Smart? How often have you ever seen that work?

[FerryFor50]

It's an interesting idea. Smart? How often have you ever seen that work?

I've never seen anyone try to intentionally miss as soon as they get the ball. Usually they act like they're shooting first. No one was ready for it and it very nearly worked.

[gus]

It's an interesting idea. Smart? How often have you ever seen that work?

What's the alternative?

[Dukehky]

Thomas Robinson is the best player in the country. He carries his team. Tyshuan Taylor can't shoot anything other than a lay-up.

Rock Chalk, beat Kentucky

[FerryFor50]

Kansas has started out games slowly each game in this tourny.

I don't think that will work out so well if they start slow against Kentucky.

[uh_no]

so....final two minutes you can take a guys head off and it's incidental contact.....but with 9 secs left there's a foul called if the guy just bumps you on the inbounds?

they were clearly trying to foul intentionally...and the ball handler isn't trying to avoid it, so there's no reason for the refs to require the defender to risk injuring the offensive guy in intentionally fouling him...

[NYC Duke Fan]

This guy can flat out coach. He loses virtually his entire starting team from last year and has this year's team in the final game.

He is as good a coach as there is in all of college basketball, bar none.

[snowdenscold]

What's the rule with the shooter and the FT line? Are they not allowed to cross the plane that the FT line makes before the ball hits the rim, or can they just not 'step' on anyplace inside of it?

Because if it's the latter, I went through in slo-mo and it was extremely close for when his foot touched down and when that ball hit the rim. But if it's the plane, it's a moot point.

[uh_no]

What's the rule with the shooter and the FT line? Are they not allowed to cross the plane that the FT line makes before the ball hits the rim, or can they just not 'step' on anyplace inside of it?

Because if it's the latter, I went through in slo-mo and it was extremely close for when his foot touched down and when that ball hit the rim. But if it's the plane, it's a moot point.

i belieive neither foot can cross until the ball hits the rim


The free-thrower shall not break the vertical plane of the free-throw
line with either foot until the ball strikes the ring, flange or backboard or
until the free throw ends.

[Kedsy]

So, this may sound like a dumb question, but did Sullinger just play himself out of the lottery?

[muzikfrk75]

So, this may sound like a dumb question, but did Sullinger just play himself out of the lottery?

He'll still be in the lottery...but I see him struggling at the next level. Maybe if he develops a 3 point shot....

[BobbyFan]

What's the rule with the shooter and the FT line? Are they not allowed to cross the plane that the FT line makes before the ball hits the rim, or can they just not 'step' on anyplace inside of it?

Because if it's the latter, I went through in slo-mo and it was extremely close for when his foot touched down and when that ball hit the rim. But if it's the plane, it's a moot point.

As noted above, it's crossing the plane that is a violation.

Based on the befuddled look on his teammates, it was obvious Craft decided to do this on his own. Had he told them what he was doing beforehand, that would have given them a decided advantage in getting an offensive rebound and would have been a very clever play.

[FerryFor50]

So, this may sound like a dumb question, but did Sullinger just play himself out of the lottery?

Maybe he stays another year and puts the weight back on...

[CDu]

So, this may sound like a dumb question, but did Sullinger just play himself out of the lottery?

Good lord no. Just like Barnes didn't play himself out of the lottery either. The GMs will give Sullinger the benefit of the doubt rather than bury him for one bad game.

[Chris Randolph]

This guy can flat out coach. He loses virtually his entire starting team from last year and has this year's team in the final game.

He is as good a coach as there is in all of college basketball, bar none.

Couldn't agree more. Obviously Coach K's records speak for themselves but I don't think Self is far off. Coach K is #1, Self is #1A. K is more decorated but has been in the game longer.

[Bluedog]

I just caught the ending, but it was great to watch and an exciting finish. Both teams had some major headscratching turnovers in the last few minutes, though. OSU after a called timeout to set up a key play and Kansas when they simply had to run out the clock but instead went for a tough bounce pass on a breakaway and there were a few others too. You'd think at this level, these teams would know that ball security at the end is of utmost importance. I think OSU didn't get a shot off on like 3 straight possessions after they were up 2. Craft reminds me of Scheyer with his "crafty" play (no pun intended) and quick hands. Had some great steals at key points and almost caught everybody completely off guard on the last free throw by throwing it up immediately after the ref passed him the ball (but left early, unfortunately for him).

I agree with the above that Bill Self can really coach. Kansas has the personnel to stay with Kentucky with a 7 footer, TRob, and good perimeter players, but they definitely need to hit more shots than they did in the first half vs. OSU if they want to stay in it. I think they have a chance as they've been really resilient and shown they can both run and gun (as they did vs. UNC in the first half, scoring 47 points in the half) and also play a more deliberate pace. Withey is certainly a shot blocking presence and TRob is a man among boys. Releford also impressed me. Self has managed to yet again have a very very successful season with a completely different group of guys. Haven't they won like 9 Big 12 regular season titles in a row or something?

In any event, entertaining Final Four and hopefully the final will be more exciting than last year's (unless Kansas blows out KY because I'd be okay with that). Obviously, with a Kansas win they tie us with four titles, but that's definitely preferable to Kentucky and Calipari getting a ring. The four teams that reached the FF this year can all really run, I feel, and have a fair number of athletes. Just watching them you can tell that they're good (although Kansas didn't look so good against Purdue and NC St, admittedly.) Certainly no Cinderallas this year and I think that's led to more exciting games (although I love Cinderallas sometimes, but it's usually a slower paced gut-it-out defense that gets them there....unless it's VCU). Go Jayhawks!

[Kedsy]

Good lord no. Just like Barnes didn't play himself out of the lottery either. The GMs will give Sullinger the benefit of the doubt rather than bury him for one bad game.

He's way too small to play center in the NBA. I'm not even sure he's tall (or quick) enough to play PF effectively. He has no game outside of 8 feet. He couldn't shoot over Withey and couldn't defend Robinson in the post. He would have been a top five pick last draft. I can't imagine anybody picking him in the top ten this year, and at that point it's hit or miss whether you actually make the lottery or not. Put another way, I don't think it would be burying him for one bad game so much as the one game confirming suspicions most GMs probably already had about him.

[gus]

As noted above, it's crossing the plane that is a violation.

Based on the befuddled look on his teammates, it was obvious Craft decided to do this on his own. Had he told them what he was doing beforehand, that would have given them a decided advantage in getting an offensive rebound and would have been a very clever play.

I guess that's what happens when you have no time outs. But they had to know he was missing the second on purpose.

[Wander]

He's way too small to play center in the NBA. I'm not even sure he's tall (or quick) enough to play PF effectively. He has no game outside of 8 feet. He couldn't shoot over Withey and couldn't defend Robinson in the post. He would have been a top five pick last draft. I can't imagine anybody picking him in the top ten this year, and at that point it's hit or miss whether you actually make the lottery or not. Put another way, I don't think it would be burying him for one bad game so much as the one game confirming suspicions most GMs probably already had about him.

He was never going to play center, but he's a fine size for a power forward - maybe slightly undersized, but not much. How much have you watched Ohio State this year? He's clearly worked on his shot "outside of 8 feet" this season and it's improving. I don't know if he'll be a great pro but he's not going to drop out of the lottery.

[Dukehky]

He was never going to play center, but he's a fine size for a power forward - maybe slightly undersized, but not much. How much have you watched Ohio State this year? He's clearly worked on his shot "outside of 8 feet" this season and it's improving. I don't know if he'll be a great pro but he's not going to drop out of the lottery.

He's more skilled than Big Baby Davis. I like Sullinger's game and think he'll have a fine pro-career. He's not Karl Malone, he's not Kevin Love, but I think he'll certainly be a serviceable starting PF in a few years.

[1 24 90]

Interesting note - Kansas has no McDonald's All Americans on their team and there has only been one NCAA champion before with none - 2002 Maryland

[Kedsy]

How much have you watched Ohio State this year? He's clearly worked on his shot "outside of 8 feet" this season and it's improving.

I've only seen him in the big national games. I see him occasionally take outside shots, but I don't see him make too many. I'll take your word for it if you've watched him a lot.

I don't really have a strong opinion on his lottery-worthiness. Robinson looking so much better and more mature than Sullinger, and Withey bothering his shot so much made me question it, that's all.

[IBleedBlue]

This guy can flat out coach. He loses virtually his entire starting team from last year and has this year's team in the final game.

He is as good a coach as there is in all of college basketball, bar none.

I agree with this statement. Bill Self has proved himself to be a very good coach under trying circumstances. Actually, this kansas team reminds me of the job Coack K did with 2007 team although we didn't make the final four that year.
After Duke went out to Lehigh, I found myself rooting for Kansas this entire tournament. I wish Coach K would schedule a home and away series with Jayhawks for a couple of years. It would be fun to go into Allen Field House and play.
In fact, Bill Self said in Maui that they came here to play Duke. I am sure he would agree for a home and away series with Duke if we agree.

[J4Kop99]

What's the alternative?

either let his teammates know the plan beforehand or wait until his guys are ready. That play has such a small chance of actually working that it doesn't really matter though.

I was just responding to someone who said it was a smart play. I don't think that Craft doing that on his own (which it looks like he did) was smart at all.

But whatever, it's over.

[tommy]

He's way too small to play center in the NBA. I'm not even sure he's tall (or quick) enough to play PF effectively. He has no game outside of 8 feet. He couldn't shoot over Withey and couldn't defend Robinson in the post. He would have been a top five pick last draft. I can't imagine anybody picking him in the top ten this year, and at that point it's hit or miss whether you actually make the lottery or not. Put another way, I don't think it would be burying him for one bad game so much as the one game confirming suspicions most GMs probably already had about him.

I agree he's in no way a center, but he's fine size for a PF. He's 6'9 and 270. He can shoot a face-up jumper, but he's going to need to improve it some.

I think a pretty good comp for him is Carlos Boozer. About the same size, good fundamentals, strong rebounder despite not having great springs, struggles against length. 'Los has a better face-up game, but Sullinger, I believe, can improve his jump shot and be a solid starter in the NBA for many years. Seems to have a good head on his shoulders too. If I'm drafting in the mid-to-late lottery, I'd take him.

Query: who's a good comp for Thomas Robinson??? 6'10" 240 lbs of rock, strong power game but can also shoot a J (but no 3 point range), great motor, works hard to improve his game. I thought maybe Al Horford? Robinson is more versatile offensively. Patrick Patterson? I'd say the same as compared to Horford. Who else?

[heyman25]

Thomas Robinson is the best player in the country. He carries his team. Tyshuan Taylor can't shoot anything other than a lay-up.

Rock Chalk, beat Kentucky
Wrong. We will see Monday Night. Anthony Davis is the best player in college basketball.I may be wrong. Like Barkley said UK did not play well and still won.

[Kedsy]

I think a pretty good comp for him is Carlos Boozer. About the same size, good fundamentals, strong rebounder despite not having great springs, struggles against length. 'Los has a better face-up game, but Sullinger, I believe, can improve his jump shot and be a solid starter in the NBA for many years.

Yes, but Carlos Boozer was not even a first round pick, much less a lottery pick.

[Kedsy]

Couldn't agree more. Obviously Coach K's records speak for themselves but I don't think Self is far off. Coach K is #1, Self is #1A.

On what do you base the "1A" designation? I agree Self's a great coach, but his record is nowhere near as good as a lot of other college coaches. He's been coaching 19 years, 12 at "Big 6" schools, and has been to only two Final Fours (including this season). His regular season winning percentage is strong, comparable to Boeheim and Izzo, but not as strong as, for example, Calipari or Roy Williams, or even Brad Stevens. His NCAA tournament record lags way behind most of the big name coaches. In 9 years at Kansas, never seeded lower than #4, he's lost to seeds #9 or lower four times, including two first round upsets.

I don't mean to suggest that he's not a great coach. He is, possibly top 10 among active coaches. But to call him the 2nd best coach in college basketball, and almost first (i.e., "1A") seems like a major exaggeration to me.

[CDu]

Yes, but Carlos Boozer was not even a first round pick, much less a lottery pick.

And clearly the scouts were wrong about him. The fact that Boozer went to the NBA and pretty clearly succeeded should be evidence that such players can go in the lottery and succeed. I'd also note that Sullinger is probably bigger than Boozer and has more untapped potential in terms of getting physically stronger (he's not in the best shape yet).

But the most important thing is that there just aren't a ton of better options out there. He's 6'9", 275 with skills. He's clearly not the best PF prospect available. But he's got the most polished post game and the NBA has grown more comfortable with the widebody PF in recent years.

I suspect he'll go in the mid/late lottery (8-12).

[Kedsy]

I suspect he'll go in the mid/late lottery (8-12).

That sounds about right to me, but if you're up there crazy things sometimes happen. Unfortunately, he may end up an example of someone hurting his draft stock by staying in school.

[CDu]

That sounds about right to me, but if you're up there crazy things sometimes happen. Unfortunately, he may end up an example of someone hurting his draft stock by staying in school.

Yeah, he definitely didn't help his draft stock by coming back as he was probably in the 3-7 range last year.

[rsvman]

It's an interesting idea. Smart? How often have you ever seen that work?

Once. But to be fair, I haven't seen it used much, either.

The successful attempt was by Danny Ainge when he was playing for BYU against San Diego State in the very early 80s. BYU was down three with seconds to play when Ainge went to the line for a two-shot foul. He sank the first shot. When the ref had the ball on his hand and was about to hand it to Danny, Danny actually grabbed the ball out of his hand and threw it against the front rim in one quick, fluid motion. The ball banked off the front rim and back toward the shooter; he took about one step into the lane, caught the ball, and shot it through for a successful three-point play, which sent the game into overtime.

BYU ultimately lost the game, but the quick thinking and flawless execution of Ainge allowed them a chance by sending the game to an overtime period.

[NashvilleDevil]

Yeah, he definitely didn't help his draft stock by coming back as he was probably in the 3-7 range last year.

So Barnes and Sullinger would've both been top 5-7 picks and they come back and will probably late lottery picks with serious question marks.

[Kedsy]

So Barnes and Sullinger would've both been top 5-7 picks and they come back and will probably late lottery picks with serious question marks.

It's why you can't fault players like Austin and Mason if they make the decision to leave early, whether or not they could use the extra year of development.

[crimsonandblue]

On what do you base the "1A" designation? I agree Self's a great coach, but his record is nowhere near as good as a lot of other college coaches. He's been coaching 19 years, 12 at "Big 6" schools, and has been to only two Final Fours (including this season). His regular season winning percentage is strong, comparable to Boeheim and Izzo, but not as strong as, for example, Calipari or Roy Williams, or even Brad Stevens. His NCAA tournament record lags way behind most of the big name coaches. In 9 years at Kansas, never seeded lower than #4, he's lost to seeds #9 or lower four times, including two first round upsets.

I don't mean to suggest that he's not a great coach. He is, possibly top 10 among active coaches. But to call him the 2nd best coach in college basketball, and almost first (i.e., "1A") seems like a major exaggeration to me.

Winningest Coaches

Last 5 Years
281-52 John Calipari
268-52 Bill Self
264-57 Mike Krzyzewski
257-68 Roy Williams
247-75 Thad Matta
238-77 Jamie Dixon
237-85 Billy Donovan
237-78 Jim Boeheim
237-61 Mark Few
231-85 Rick Pitino

Last 10 Years
422-79 Mike Krzyzewski
401-91 Bill Self
393-107 Roy Williams
362-123 Jim Boeheim
359-126 Billy Donovan
357-126 Jim Calhoun
357-133 Tom Izzo
352-83 John Calipari
345-119 Stew Morrill
342-137 Rick Barnes

In nine years at Kansas, he's won 84% of his games and has now been to 2 final fours, 3 more elite eights, won the title with a chance again on Monday, and now won eight straight regular season conference championships. So, yeah, he's possibly among the top 10 active coaches.

[TexHawk]

On what do you base the "1A" designation? I agree Self's a great coach, but his record is nowhere near as good as a lot of other college coaches. He's been coaching 19 years, 12 at "Big 6" schools, and has been to only two Final Fours (including this season). His regular season winning percentage is strong, comparable to Boeheim and Izzo, but not as strong as, for example, Calipari or Roy Williams, or even Brad Stevens. His NCAA tournament record lags way behind most of the big name coaches. In 9 years at Kansas, never seeded lower than #4, he's lost to seeds #9 or lower four times, including two first round upsets.

I don't mean to suggest that he's not a great coach. He is, possibly top 10 among active coaches. But to call him the 2nd best coach in college basketball, and almost first (i.e., "1A") seems like a major exaggeration to me.

Possibly?

Bill Self went 55-54 in 5 years at Oral Roberts, which is where he got his start in college coaching 20 years ago. Guys like Roy, Izzo, and even Stevens started at much more established schools, with tradition, strong athletic departments, and some built-in recruiting advantages. As it is, Self's overall winning percentage is .752. Take away Oral Roberts, and it's .800. In his 9 years at KU, he's at .838, which is disgusting. While I understand the complaints about losing to lower seeds, I don't understand why people think that is so much worse than missing the tournament altogether (something that Roy, Calipari, and Boeheim have done recently). Self has won the Big12 for eight consecutive years, he's won his conference 10 of the last 11 years (if you go back to Illinois).

Some more comparisons...
--Yes, Izzo has been to 4 more Final Fours, but now the same number of championship games. He has also lost in the first round 4 times, and been to two NITs. He took a preseason top 5 team in 2011 to the bubble and one of the last teams in.
--Roy missed the tournament in 2010. He has also had his own share of Northern Iowa losses at KU (UTEP & Rhode Island). Not many coaches were handed the keys to two blue-bloods for their only coaching jobs.
--Boeheim has 3 Final Fours (in 35 years of coaching), but has missed the tournament three times in the last 10 years, along with two first round losses.


So, if he's *just* Top 10, and Coach K retires tomorrow, who would you take before him?

[TexHawk]

His NCAA tournament record lags way behind most of the big name coaches.

Sorry, couldn't let this one go either. Updated to today, NCAA tournament records:

Coach K: 79-24 (.770)
Roy Williams: 62-20 (.760)
John Calipari: 37-13 (.740)
Billy Donovan: 29-10 (.740)
Bill Self: 33-12 (.730)
Tom Izzo: 37-14 (.730)
Rick Pitino: 42-16 (.720)
Thad Matta: 20-10 (.667)

Who is Bill Self *way behind*?

(A win on Monday would push him ahead of Calipari and Donovan to 3rd on this list.)

[Chris Randolph]

On what do you base the "1A" designation? I agree Self's a great coach, but his record is nowhere near as good as a lot of other college coaches. He's been coaching 19 years, 12 at "Big 6" schools, and has been to only two Final Fours (including this season). His regular season winning percentage is strong, comparable to Boeheim and Izzo, but not as strong as, for example, Calipari or Roy Williams, or even Brad Stevens. His NCAA tournament record lags way behind most of the big name coaches. In 9 years at Kansas, never seeded lower than #4, he's lost to seeds #9 or lower four times, including two first round upsets.

I don't mean to suggest that he's not a great coach. He is, possibly top 10 among active coaches. But to call him the 2nd best coach in college basketball, and almost first (i.e., "1A") seems like a major exaggeration to me.

I just read this and some posters already beat me to the statistics to back up Self. EVERY big name coach has been upset more than once in the tournament so lets squash that right there. The tournament is so tough to win, upsets happen. Every year Self loses first round picks and still wins the Big 12, which has proven to be a top 3 league of late. His winning percentage, conference titles, deep runs in the tourney and national title (maybe another) speak volumes as well. He built Illinois into a national title contender before leaving for Kansas.

The only coaches that you are going to put him behind are guys that have more experience than him at the big time level (K, Boeheim, Izzo, Calhoun, Williams). In 10-15 years, I would expect Self (assuming he stays at Kansas) to right behind Coach K. But currently, looking at the past 5-10 years; K, Self, Calipari.

[Wander]

EVERY big name coach has been upset more than once in the tournament so lets squash that right there. The tournament is so tough to win, upsets happen.

Aside from maybe Duke, Kansas has been the best regular season team of the past decade. And while I agree he's a surefire top 10 coach, it's totally fair to factor in the losses to much lower seeds when evaluating his coaching career. Every coach has been upset, but I don't know of another coach who has been upset by teams seeded a full 8 spots or more lower on four different occasions. Maybe in the long run we'll all decide that that's just statistical noise, but it's still relevant to talk about now.

[COYS]

Hmm, I think it's almost impossible not to put Self in the top 5 by now. To use another measure, Kansas has finished in the top 10 in the KenPom rankings every year starting with the 2005-06 season to the present. Calipari has pulled this off, as well, although some of that was aided by his absolute domination of Conference USA at Memphis with far superior talent, which I suspect affects the rankings a bit even if they are supposed to be adjusted. Considering how many players have moved on from Lawrence to the NBA over that span, that is incredibly impressive and shows a truly amazing level of consistency. Even the two years prior, they were in the top 15. Coach K's teams are close, with the exceptions being an 11th place finish in '07 (that team really wasn't as bad as the record and our memories make it out to be), an 11th place finish in '09 and this year's 20th place finish. But Self has really established himself. Plus, if he beats Calipari head to head in a title game for the second time, you HAVE to give him the edge (even if the real culprit for the first game was D Rose's horrible free throw shooting).

Of course, technically this will be the first time they've really faced off with all the marbles at stake =).

[Wander]

Plus, if he beats Calipari head to head in a title game for the second time, you HAVE to give him the edge (even if the real culprit for the first game was D Rose's horrible free throw shooting).

Well, if I remember correctly, there were a lot of quotes and reports from that year that basically said Calipari didn't even bother trying to coach free throw shooting... he kept saying he didn't feel that it was that important, or it wasn't worth the time, or he couldn't make anyone get better, or something like that. So I'd say the coaching is part of it there.

[TexHawk]

Aside from maybe Duke, Kansas has been the best regular season team of the past decade. And while I agree he's a surefire top 10 coach, it's totally fair to factor in the losses to much lower seeds when evaluating his coaching career. Every coach has been upset, but I don't know of another coach who has been upset by teams seeded a full 8 spots or more lower on four different occasions. Maybe in the long run we'll all decide that that's just statistical noise, but it's still relevant to talk about now.

It is absolutely relevant, and it IS totally fair. Nobody has said he's perfect, 4 upsets in 9 years is not a strong mark in his favor. Hopefully it does become statistical noise after 20 more years on the KU bench. He has also struggled with recruiting in the last few years, but that's turning around a bit. (He did not purposely try to put together a Final 4 team with no McDAAs, trust me.)

Each of those upset losses* were troubling, but it's still amazing that his record is as good as it is when you consider those. If you listen to the media and general popular opinion, you would think the guy chokes every year. Fact is, KU has the 2nd most tourney wins in all of CBB since he showed up in Lawrence.


* If you're interested, it's worth taking a look at each of those losses in isolation. Three different groups of players suffered those 4 losses. One was a team full of Roy players, another was a team full of freshman (who used that loss as motivation for a championship two years later), and one was in the Elite 8 (I refuse to throw the VCU loss in with the others, since that KU team advanced further than any other #1 seed in 2011, they just ran into a VCU team that was on fire.) Northern Iowa was the most inexcusable, but that was a Top 20 team all season that was seeded too low, imo. Still should have won that one.

[Newton_14]

either let his teammates know the plan beforehand or wait until his guys are ready. That play has such a small chance of actually working that it doesn't really matter though.

I was just responding to someone who said it was a smart play. I don't think that Craft doing that on his own (which it looks like he did) was smart at all.

But whatever, it's over.

Actually, I will respectfully disagree as well. It was a great idea and darn near worked. He executed the bounce off of the front of the rim perfectly, which was amazing given how quickly he did it. Had he simply had the patience to wait a fraction of a second longer before lifting his foot and crossin the line, he very likely scores before the Kansas bigs have time to react. He heard the whistle before putting the shot up so he did not put full effort into the shot.

I do think warning his teammates somehow would have been wise as they could cross as soon as the ball left his hand. In my view, he greatly increased the odds of a low percentage play having a chance to work. Had OSU had a timeout and could have planned that, it may very well have worked with either Craft or a teammate getting an easy putback.

It was a great attempt that only failed due to not waiting quite long enough before crossing.

[tommy]

I do think warning his teammates somehow would have been wise as they could cross as soon as the ball left his hand. In my view, he greatly increased the odds of a low percentage play having a chance to work. Had OSU had a timeout and could have planned that, it may very well have worked with either Craft or a teammate getting an easy putback.

Or had they worked on it a little during practice at some point during the year. I think, going forward, teams will -- this type of play can decide a game. Would be great to have it planned and practiced -- kinda like the Marino fake-spike play vs. the Jets years ago -- so everyone is on the same page, alert, and ready for it.