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View Full Version : MBB: Midwest Region Final - Kansas 80, UNC 67



Newton_14
03-25-2012, 07:08 PM
Finally the evil empire goes down. Discuss.

moonpie23
03-25-2012, 07:11 PM
no title for the black pigeon....too worried about his "brand"

Son of Mojo
03-25-2012, 07:11 PM
If Kansas hadn't missed so many dunks & layups, it would've been much worse. It sure is peacefully quiet for the moment on facebook and on the phones. :D

ncexnyc
03-25-2012, 07:12 PM
I'll be eating for free this week as tomorrow I'll be collecting my winnings from two foolish heel fans.

devildeac
03-25-2012, 07:13 PM
Worth posting again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddXfc0mQfxc

And just to think, we beat these guys many months ago.

Sigh...

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 07:13 PM
Stillman White acquitted himself much better this game, but they REALLY missed Marshall.

ArkieDukie
03-25-2012, 07:13 PM
Na na na na
Na na na na
Hey hey hey
Goodbye!

Now I can focus on ABK! (Of course, even if they do win, chances are the championship will be vacated. Remember that, as far as the NCAA is concerned, this is John Calipari's first Final Four.)

Troublemaker
03-25-2012, 07:13 PM
I think this finally gives some Duke fans peace about the Kyrie Irving situation.

Get well soon Kendall. May you do well on your pre-draft workouts.

IBleedBlue
03-25-2012, 07:14 PM
I tried to glimpse at the meltdown at IC. None of the links on IC are working. I am definitely going out for a nice dinner tonight.

ncexnyc
03-25-2012, 07:14 PM
no title for the black pigeon....too worried about his "brand"

Time for a nickname change. Inferior products are normally called, BRAND X.:D

heyman25
03-25-2012, 07:14 PM
Very happy to see tears flowing down the cheeks of Tarheel Fans. Hopefully military personnel in North Carolina will give Representative Brad Miller verbal hell Monday morning. For his tasteless joke about rooting for the Taliban if it was against Duke!

cruxer
03-25-2012, 07:15 PM
and the one ring remains hidden from Sauron for yet another year, but we must stay ever vigilant and redouble our efforts next season!

-c

Furniture
03-25-2012, 07:15 PM
Go home!!!!!!!!

Dev11
03-25-2012, 07:15 PM
Roy's digging through his closet looking for that KU sweater to wear down to NOLA next weekend.

Cameron
03-25-2012, 07:16 PM
It's ova.

wsb3
03-25-2012, 07:16 PM
Love the thread title.....So well put. I could only glimpse at the game from time to time. Last glimpse was a good one. My son and I began to celebrate madly. I raised him correctly.

Wander
03-25-2012, 07:17 PM
no title for the black pigeon....too worried about his "brand"

Or Final Four. I usually don't like when people play this card, but the kid really doesn't put a whole lot of effort into the game outside of shooting. The difference between his work ethic and that of a Tyler Zeller or Austin Rivers or Jared Sullinger or any number of other guys is obvious.

Great coaching by Self.

sagegrouse
03-25-2012, 07:17 PM
UNC -- offensive juggernaut!


0 pts. in last 3:58

1 pt. in last 5:43

3 pts. in last 8:15

sagegrouse

gwlaw99
03-25-2012, 07:19 PM
I tried to glimpse at the meltdown at IC. None of the links on IC are working. I am definitely going out for a nice dinner tonight.

Try the Carolina Blue forum. Already a blame the refs thread.

Well, the worst possible tournament outcome has been avoided. Now we have to hope the second worst doesn't happen.

ArkieDukie
03-25-2012, 07:20 PM
Try the Carolina Blue forum. Already a blame the refs thread.

Well, the worst possible tournament outcome has been avoided. Now we have to hope the second worst doesn't happen.

I'm with you there.

Congratulations to John Calipari on his first Final Four appearance.

SoCalDukeFan
03-25-2012, 07:21 PM
I hope somebody steps up and beats UK.

Barnes is really overrated.

Zeller is one class act. Congrats to him on a great career.

Always nice to see the Heels go down.

It was just too big a stage for White.

SoCal

Dukehky
03-25-2012, 07:24 PM
Bill Self is the coach of the year. They got blown out by Kentucky in the Garden, beat by Duke at Maui Indoor Stadium, and barely beat Ohio State without Sullinger at Phog Allen. They have gotten so much better.

Really looking forward to Sully vs. T-Rex.

Unfortunately, UK is probably gonna take this down. They're not going down to Louisville.

Great to see the Heels lose, feel bad they couldn't have gotten beat at full streak so I don't have to worry about hearing about all the injuries.

DesertDevil
03-25-2012, 07:26 PM
Went out to walk the dogs with the score tied. Nice to see the final right as I walked back in the house. :D

sagegrouse
03-25-2012, 07:27 PM
Bill Self is the coach of the year. They got blown out by Kentucky in the Garden, beat by Duke at Maui Indoor Stadium, and barely beat Ohio State without Sullinger at Phog Allen. They have gotten so much better.

Really looking forward to Sully vs. T-Rex.

Unfortunately, UK is probably gonna take this down. They're not going down to Louisville.

Great to see the Heels lose, feel bad they couldn't have gotten beat at full streak so I don't have to worry about hearing about all the injuries.

If the Final Four teams played like they did this weekend, Kentucky wins easily. But then, next weekend is not this weekend, and I have seen teams play much worse when they get to the Final Four.

sage

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 07:28 PM
KS made the big plays when the game was on the line in the last 4 mins to earn the win in a hard fought game.

I thought the keys that decided the game were KS being strong on the boards, and UNC's inability to create and shoot from the outside, a problem they never solved all season and it caught up with them.

I also thought that Henson was playing soft and settling for too many jumpers the whole game because of his injuries. Defensively he didn't get inside and mix it up on the boards like he usually does. That hurt.

KS was just too good for UNC to win without being at full strength, and maybe even if UNC was healthy.

All in all the team competed hard through some serious adversity, great job from Roy this season keeping the team moving forward to the elite 8 with all the injuries.

indakut
03-25-2012, 07:28 PM
Finally the evil empire goes down. Discuss.

Thank goodness! :p

miramar
03-25-2012, 07:29 PM
no title for the black pigeon....too worried about his "brand"

Is it too early to talk about the Golden Child's legacy? When he skyped ol' Roy, people seemed to think that he was the next Jordan, and more importantly the whole thing was taken as proof positive that Coach K couldn't recruit against UNC (I guess Kyrie didn't count).

Barnes has been a nice player, to quote Jerry West, and the team has an ACC title and two elite eights, but he certainly wasn't worth all the sk/hype.

The main thing for us is that we will miss Austin and probably Mason, but Carolina will likely be facing another mass migration.

#1Duke
03-25-2012, 07:29 PM
I hope somebody steps up and beats UK.

Barnes is really overrated.

Zeller is one class act. Congrats to him on a great career.

Always nice to see the Heels go down.

It was just too big a stage for White.

SoCal

Well, yes and no. White and Watts did combine to about equal KM's average game. Even while facing a good team like Kansas with it's bigger guards the kid still had 0 turnovers, 7 assists, 4 points and even managed a steal and 2 rebounds.
A better performance than he had against Ohio. Wonder what he would be like if he had another game or two under his belt. He seems to be a quick study.

Agree with everything else you said.

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 07:32 PM
Well, yes and no. White and Watts did combine to about equal KM's average game. Even while facing a good team like Kansas with it's bigger guards the kid still had 0 turnovers, 7 assists, 4 points and even managed a steal and 2 rebounds.
A better performance than he had against Ohio. Wonder what he would be like if he had another game or two under his belt. He seems to be a quick study.

Agree with everything else you said.

He played better but he still wasn't very good. And he shrunk at the end of the game.

I seem to recall him turning it over once or twice, too...

tux
03-25-2012, 07:32 PM
1. Hanging their Sweet 16 banner in the Dean Dome
2. Retiring Stilman White's jersey

(Or should Duke retire his jersey?)

Actually, I thought the kid did an admirable job, considering the pressure of stepping in as a freshman to run the point for Marshall.

The first half was very good. If the two teams kept that up for the 2nd half, I thought we were headed into "instant classic" territory.

At the half, the talking heads all thought UNC was headed to a sure victory, given that Kansas had not managed to expose White.

I'm not sure what happened to UNC -- they just sorta stopped scoring at about the 7 minute mark.

Regardless, I will sleep well tonight with the Heels headed home. As my mom says: "The second best thing."

They won the "regular" season in an ACC with an unbalanced schedule...

Other than that, what does the consensus "best team ever assembled" have to hang their hat on? ...

robobevan
03-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Is it too early to talk about the Golden Child's legacy? When he skyped ol' Roy, people seemed to think that he was the next Jordan, and more importantly the whole thing was taken as proof positive that Coach K couldn't recruit against UNC (I guess Kyrie didn't count).

Barnes has been a nice player, to quote Jerry West, and the team has an ACC title and two elite eights, but he certainly wasn't worth all the sk/hype.

The main thing for us is that we will miss Austin and probably Mason, but Carolina will likely be facing another mass migration.

They did not win an ACC title. Regular season does not crown the champion. Otherwise all good points.

Saratoga2
03-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Stillman White acquitted himself much better this game, but they REALLY missed Marshall.

UNC looked disconnected at times and had turnover problems. Stillman White did a decent job but Marshall would have been a scoring threat and a much bigger and more experienced defender. As it was, Kansas could defend 4 players and leave Stillman alone. Big advantage for them. Tough break for UNC, but the injury bug can bite anyone. I have no love for UNC, but t is tough to see the ACC out of the final four.

heyman25
03-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Kentucky fans are horrible. However this UK team plays great basketball and I truly doubt they will not cut down the nets. Like him or not Calipari is a very good coach. Pitino is another great coach and may slow the game down so much it might disrupt UK's march to the championship.

hurleyfor3
03-25-2012, 07:36 PM
There was a basketball game today? And unc played in it? And lost? Well, yay.

Ky/Loovul is the first game on Saturday? That makes absolutely no sense.

#1Duke
03-25-2012, 07:36 PM
He played better but he still wasn't very good. And he shrunk at the end of the game.

I seem to recall him turning it over once or twice, too...

No, he had 0 turnovers , 7 assists, 4 points, 1 steal ( I thought he had two... back to back ) and 2 rebounds. A third string "just in case" Freshmen against #2 ranked Kansas..... oh, and he played good defense.
He and Watts just about equaled an average KM performance.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320850153

RoyalBlue08
03-25-2012, 07:48 PM
So Duke/UNC split the season series, neither won the ACC tournament, and neither made the Final Four. I'm calling this season a tie! Bring on 2013!

Duke 4 Life
03-25-2012, 07:55 PM
This made my weekend!!! Bet U won't see any tarhole flags on cars tomorrow!!!!!!! :D

howardlander
03-25-2012, 07:56 PM
no title for the black pigeon....too worried about his "brand"

Yep, that's my favorite thing about this loss. No national titles, no Final Fours and no ACC titles. Not much of a legacy, assuming he goes pro.

Just goes to show you: on top of everything else, you need a little luck to go all the way.

Howard

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2012, 07:56 PM
I'm with you there.

Congratulations to John Calipari on his first Final Four appearance.

It's his 2nd. They went last year by beating Carolina.

blueduke59
03-25-2012, 07:57 PM
He played better but he still wasn't very good. And he shrunk at the end of the game.

I seem to recall him turning it over once or twice, too...

White have 7 assists, one steal, and ZERO turnovers

If only xh had a SIXTH lotto pick--then they'd have pulled out a W.

Barnes seemed terrified to touch the ball in the last few minutes. Kept giving it back to White like he could create something. The Failcon is a choker in big games.


Losing Marshall was a tough break but having talent the caliber of xh's slink away with the game on the line and cede shots to Stillman White is equally--if not more--inexcusable. UNC scores 2 points in the last 8(?) minutes???? This while having 3 NBA lotto picks on the floor during that stretch

ArkieDukie
03-25-2012, 07:59 PM
It's his 2nd. They went last year by beating Carolina.

My bad. I forgot about that one.

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 08:00 PM
They did not win an ACC title. Regular season does not crown the champion. Otherwise all good points.

I think we've been through this about a million times. Both the ACC regular season and ACC tournament winners are recognized by the league. The latter is the ACC Champion and the former is the ACC Regular Season Champion. Very hard for me to believe we wouldn't count as a feather in our cap a regular season championship if the shoe were on the other foot.

Lord Ash
03-25-2012, 08:00 PM
Fantastic.

FANTASTIC.

CDu
03-25-2012, 08:00 PM
Just shows how valuable Kendall Marshall is/was to UNC. White played about as well as could possibly be expected for the first 30+ minutes. But down the stretch, he just looked overwhelmed. Kansas switched defenses on him and he just looked lost. And defensively, Taylor and Johnson felt very comfortable against him. A healthy Marshall changes that game for them. He sees the court and creates opportunities. Without him, they looked stagnant in the second half.

Kansas is a very undisciplined team, and I think UNC did a good job taking advantage of that in the first half. But when Kansas finally put the clamps on in the second half, UNC just couldn't score. It was strange to see Zeller and Henson resigned to setting high screens, but that's what they were doing late in the game once Kansas took away the entry passes. Great job by Self to take advantage of the playmaking liabilities late in that game.

I think the injury to Marshall has really exposed the limitations in Barnes' game. I sort of wonder if that will affect his draft stock and cause him to return. Meanwhile, I kind of feel like Marshall's stock has to go up.

It's going to be an interesting next several weeks here in the Triangle as we find out who is staying and who is going.

Greg_Newton
03-25-2012, 08:01 PM
I'm elated. Feel like Duke just won number 5. :D

I'm telling you, getting through that recruiting cycle without a championship is HUGE. I'm so happy I never have to see Tyler Zeller in a UNC uniform again.

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 08:03 PM
Kentucky fans are horrible. However this UK team plays great basketball and I truly doubt they will not cut down the nets. Like him or not Calipari is a very good coach. Pitino is another great coach and may slow the game down so much it might disrupt UK's march to the championship.

To my surprise, Louisville has the #1 defensive efficiency in kenpom.com's ratings. So while I think UK has a better chance than any of the other 3 teams, I (too) wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion they'll even reach the title game. Defense is often thought to be more steady than offense, so they have a real chance to take them out.

bdeviled11
03-25-2012, 08:05 PM
Stillman White acquitted himself much better this game, but they REALLY missed Marshall.

Felt like the first round draft picks on White's team didn't want to shoot towards the end of that game.

MChambers
03-25-2012, 08:06 PM
I thought UNC played remarkably well without Marshall. Part of the closeness was some boneheaded play by KU (anyone see Young's pulling guard pick on White?), but UNC deserves some credit.

Zeller was great and McAdoo looked really good, like a young Worthy. Barnes had a good first half, but really has his limitations. I'm guessing he leaves UNC with fewer NCAA titles than Lance Thomas.

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 08:07 PM
So Duke/UNC split the season series, neither won the ACC tournament, and neither made the Final Four. I'm calling this season a tie! Bring on 2013!

Well, that's one way to look at it, Dr. Pangloss. Just don't spend time adding up the scores of the 2 games, don't compare the season or post-season records etc. Have you considered a job in public relations? :)

ncexnyc
03-25-2012, 08:07 PM
I think the injury to Marshall has really exposed the limitations in Barnes' game. I sort of wonder if that will affect his draft stock and cause him to return. Meanwhile, I kind of feel like Marshall's stock has to go up.
.

Last year after every game I had to listen to heel fans go, "Cha Ching, Cha Ching. That's the sound of Kyle's draft stock dropping". What's that saying about turnabout?

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 08:08 PM
Just shows how valuable Kendall Marshall is/was to UNC. White played about as well as could possibly be expected for the first 30+ minutes. But down the stretch, he just looked overwhelmed. Kansas switched defenses on him and he just looked lost. And defensively, Taylor and Johnson felt very comfortable against him. A healthy Marshall changes that game for them. He sees the court and creates opportunities. Without him, they looked stagnant in the second half.

Kansas is a very undisciplined team, and I think UNC did a good job taking advantage of that in the first half. But when Kansas finally put the clamps on in the second half, UNC just couldn't score. It was strange to see Zeller and Henson resigned to setting high screens, but that's what they were doing late in the game once Kansas took away the entry passes. Great job by Self to take advantage of the playmaking liabilities late in that game.

I think the injury to Marshall has really exposed the limitations in Barnes' game. I sort of wonder if that will affect his draft stock and cause him to return. Meanwhile, I kind of feel like Marshall's stock has to go up.

It's going to be an interesting next several weeks here in the Triangle as we find out who is staying and who is going.

Spot on analysis there CDu. It is amazing really. Without Marshall, Barnes looks very average. A UNC guy at work, bet me lunch tomorrow, that Barnes would have 25+ points starting against Ohio, and carry them at least to the Final Four. I am going over the menu choices now.:)

Barnes is a great mystery. As of now, Bullock has forged ahead as the better player, even with the bum knee. Agree on the interest in the next few weeks. Henson and McAdoo may both go, Barnes possibly stays, and Marshall is the wild card, especially with the injury.

#1Duke
03-25-2012, 08:09 PM
So Duke/UNC split the season series, neither won the ACC tournament, and neither made the Final Four. I'm calling this season a tie! Bring on 2013!

You are one of the few that would methinks.

howardlander
03-25-2012, 08:10 PM
I think we've been through this about a million times. Both the ACC regular season and ACC tournament winners are recognized by the league. The latter is the ACC Champion and the former is the ACC Regular Season Champion. Very hard for me to believe we wouldn't count as a feather in our cap a regular season championship if the shoe were on the other foot.

Technically I know you are right. But as a reasonably old alumni (Class of 1981), the reality is that the regular season title just has never been NEARLY as important as the tournament to me. I felt that way when everyone played the same schedule. Now with the unbalanced schedule, the league can say what it wants, but unless someone goes 15 - 1 or 16 - 0, I'm just not that impressed. This year is a classic example. Carolina lost by 33 at FSU, but didn't have to face them in Chapel Hill. Duke lost to them at home on a buzzer beater at the end of each half and won in Tallahassee. So which is more impressive?

Howard

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 08:11 PM
It's his 2nd. They went last year by beating Carolina.

Yet to be vacated, I suppose. Sometimes the wheels of justice turn slowly.

miramar
03-25-2012, 08:11 PM
So Duke/UNC split the season series, neither won the ACC tournament, and neither made the Final Four. I'm calling this season a tie! Bring on 2013!

We beat Kansas in a tournament, and they knocked Carolina out of another tournament, so we are MUCH better.

That's kind of like penalty kicks in soccer.

gumbomoop
03-25-2012, 08:11 PM
KS made the big plays when the game was on the line in the last 4 mins to earn the win in a hard fought game.

I thought the keys that decided the game were KS being strong on the boards, and UNC's inability to create and shoot from the outside, a problem they never solved all season and it caught up with them.

I also thought that Henson was playing soft and settling for too many jumpers the whole game because of his injuries. Defensively he didn't get inside and mix it up on the boards like he usually does. That hurt.

KS was just too good for UNC to win without being at full strength, and maybe even if UNC was healthy.

All in all the team competed hard through some serious adversity, great job from Roy this season keeping the team moving forward to the elite 8 with all the injuries.

Every point here looks about right to me. I do want to acknowledge that you have pointed out for some weeks, and maybe all season, that UNC just can't hit the 3s. I wasn't persuaded, as I was fooled by how smooth Barnes and Bullock look when they shoot it. Hairston, I don't know. In this regard, losing MCDonald didn't help, either.

So injuries - lots of injuries, not really fair - finally took the toll: no Strickland as PG and D, no McDonald, and especially no Marshall. And your point re Henson is spot on, as well. Henson was hurting today, obviously. Only 1 block. Tentative.

Barnes is a mystery. For one described by Roy at beginning of last season as the most driven player he'd ever seen, well, something happened. Barnes certainly looks passive, frequently. Mystery.

I thought at beginning of this season that McAdoo was 2d best frosh, after Anthony Davis. MK-G at UK maybe is 2d, but McAdoo is next great Heel, if he stays.

Heels could lose 4 to early entry, or none. I'll predict none, or maybe one. I'd think Marshall wants his chance, and McAdoo, whose stock has skyrocketed [Charles Barkley said repeatedly he's the Heels' best player] will stay. Henson? No clue. Barnes has a tough decision, as he might improve his lottery spot if he gets a handle; but he could slide if he stays and doesn't prove to be consistent, better handle, D, rebounder, more aggressiveness.

Heels could be overwhelming #1 preseason. If at least 2 of the 4 stay, top 3-4 preseason.

hurleyfor3
03-25-2012, 08:13 PM
"ACC title", "ACC Champion" and "ACC tournament champion" are synonymous.

The 2012 ACC title was won by Florida State.

Not sure what the argument is here.

elvis14
03-25-2012, 08:16 PM
Kentucky fans are horrible.

Kentucky fans are basically UNC fans (and you are right about them being horrible - for the most part there are a very small percentage of individual exceptions).

Very happy too see UNC@CH properly evicted and now that they are gone, I'd like to see UK lose. Before UNC@CH lost I wanted UK to keep winning to prevent the worst case scenario.

slower
03-25-2012, 08:16 PM
Heels could be overwhelming #1 preseason.


Kinda like they were this year?

moonpie23
03-25-2012, 08:19 PM
they are devouring the fallen pigeon over on IC....


wonder if he'll skype "the decision"....

his brand took a hit today...

MarkD83
03-25-2012, 08:20 PM
Heels could be overwhelming #1 preseason. If at least 2 of the 4 stay, top 3-4 preseason.

I believe if you count scholarships 2 of the underclassmen have to leave or someone loses a scholarship.

elvis14
03-25-2012, 08:22 PM
Heels could be overwhelming #1 preseason. If at least 2 of the 4 stay, top 3-4 preseason.

I think the focus here should be on celebrating the loss not worrying about bad things that could happen in the future. Keep it positive! Whooo Hoooo! Thanks KU!

BlueDevilBrowns
03-25-2012, 08:22 PM
The following is quote originally posted by CDU:

"I think the injury to Marshall has really exposed the limitations in Barnes' game. I sort of wonder if that will affect his draft stock and cause him to return. Meanwhile, I kind of feel like Marshall's stock has to go up.

It's going to be an interesting next several weeks here in the Triangle as we find out who is staying and who is going.[/QUOTE]

I could easily see a situation where Barnes returns, especially if he receives feedback from the scouts/execs telling him he would be drafted behind Marshall and/or J.M.M. I don't think his ego could take it. "I'm returning to UNC to complete my Legacy of Excellence" sounds like something we may hear in a couple of weeks.

I also believe being told he would be drafted behind Kyrie in last year's draft is what prevented him from leaving last year. His ego probably kept him from coming to Duke in the first place. Remember, he was the BMOC coming to "save" Duke long before Kyrie became KYRIE.

JMHO

RoyalBlue08
03-25-2012, 08:23 PM
Spot on analysis there CDu. It is amazing really. Without Marshall, Barnes looks very average. A UNC guy at work, bet me lunch tomorrow, that Barnes would have 25+ points starting against Ohio, and carry them at least to the Final Four. I am going over the menu choices now.:)

Barnes is a great mystery. As of now, Bullock has forged ahead as the better player, even with the bum knee. Agree on the interest in the next few weeks. Henson and McAdoo may both go, Barnes possibly stays, and Marshall is the wild card, especially with the injury.

If Barnes stays he is crazy. He might play himself right out of the first round once everyone realizes he has already peaked.

moonpie23
03-25-2012, 08:25 PM
not counting the pre-unc hype, i'd say that he's pretty close to the 2nd round now..

uh_no
03-25-2012, 08:26 PM
not counting the pre-unc hype, i'd say that he's pretty close to the 2nd round now..

Hey, at least he racks up the pre-season all americans with the best of 'em

LSanders
03-25-2012, 08:26 PM
The following is quote originally posted by CDU:

"I'm returning to UNC to complete my Legacy of Excellence" sounds like something we may hear in a couple of weeks.


Tweeted, of course.

gofurman
03-25-2012, 08:28 PM
first - yay! evil empire gone.

second - no matter who stays, at least zeller is gone. whew. That dude is truly awesome. 20/22 against ohio to save UNC. That guy is / was a killer. One of the Tarheels I couldnt' hate - just does is business and kills you.

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 08:30 PM
Technically I know you are right. But as a reasonably old alumni (Class of 1981), the reality is that the regular season title just has never been NEARLY as important as the tournament to me. I felt that way when everyone played the same schedule. Now with the unbalanced schedule, the league can say what it wants, but unless someone goes 15 - 1 or 16 - 0, I'm just not that impressed. This year is a classic example. Carolina lost by 33 at FSU, but didn't have to face them in Chapel Hill. Duke lost to them at home on a buzzer beater at the end of each half and won in Tallahassee. So which is more impressive?

Howard

Well, I'm an alumnus of 1989 so the "regular season title" was not recognized in my years either. But I think the very next year or two it started, so it's been recognized for over 20 years by now. It counts.

I take your point about the unbalanced schedule, but to me, UNC clearly had the better year in every respect:

Head to head we split, but our one win was on a last second shot; they blew us out in Cameron.
They finished a game ahead of us in the ACC standings, largely because they went 2-0 vs. Miami and we went 0-1.
They went 2-1 in the ACCT; we went 1-1
They went 3-1 in the NCAAT; we went 0-1
They won 32 games to our 27 (yes we had a tougher OOC schedule, but better to win them)

If we played better and our results more closely mirrored Carolina's this year, then I think we could justify dissecting the unbalanced schedule to figure out how to break the tie. But I think the unbalanced schedule is irrelevant considering the above difference in results.

I wish it were otherwise, but to me, we have to face facts and admit we were, on the whole, bested this year by them. As someone noted, all the more reason to redouble efforts next year.

ChicagoHeel
03-25-2012, 08:30 PM
KS made the big plays when the game was on the line in the last 4 mins to earn the win in a hard fought game.

I thought the keys that decided the game were KS being strong on the boards, and UNC's inability to create and shoot from the outside, a problem they never solved all season and it caught up with them.

I also thought that Henson was playing soft and settling for too many jumpers the whole game because of his injuries. Defensively he didn't get inside and mix it up on the boards like he usually does. That hurt.

KS was just too good for UNC to win without being at full strength, and maybe even if UNC was healthy.

All in all the team competed hard through some serious adversity, great job from Roy this season keeping the team moving forward to the elite 8 with all the injuries.

A disappointing end to the season, although I am not disappointed in the team. I thought they fought hard given the adversity they faced.

I agree with everything Wheat said. To win this one, we had to avoid letting our weaknesses come into play, opposing guard penetration and outside shooting. Their guards killed us. White performed better than I anticipated at the offensive end (save the last five minutes), but was killed on the defensive end. It seemed like KU was practically starting their offense from five feet inside the arc. And our outside shooting was woeful.

As for Barnes, of course he would have played better with Marshall, but his struggles started a few weeks ago, so I don't think it all can be attributed to KM's injury. He lost his shot, started pressing, and my guess is that his confidence went off a cliff. In any case, he was the one who could have possibly carried us to the FF and he couldn't pull it off. No one is more aware of that right now than he.

Now we wait to see who comes back. We return Marshall and McAdoo and we will be okay. We return three of the four and we'll be very good. We may both be looking up at NCSU in the standings.

Chris Randolph
03-25-2012, 08:33 PM
Tough break for UNC not having Marshall. With him I think they are in the Final 4. But you won't see me crying over the fact they lost :)

How about Zeller tipping in one of KU's baskets? I laughed so hard. Glad he is done, kid could straight ball in the post

I don't read UNC message boards but Harrison Barnes must be getting blasted. What a choke job he was

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-25-2012, 08:33 PM
Well, the worst possible tournament outcome has been avoided.

The worst possible tournament outcome occurred on Mar 16 when we lost to Lehigh.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 08:34 PM
Kentucky fans are basically UNC fans (and you are right about them being horrible - for the most part there are a very small percentage of individual exceptions).

Very happy too see UNC@CH properly evicted and now that they are gone, I'd like to see UK lose. Before UNC@CH lost I wanted UK to keep winning to prevent the worst case scenario.

HA! Great minds think alike! I was pulling for the higher seed in every game until the Heels finally went down. I hated pulling against NC State, but there is just no way I wanted to see State as the barrier between UNC and the Final Four. (Though State beating UNC today would have been a very interesting scenario. IC would have crashed beyond repair).

Now that the evil empire is just another one of the 67 losers, I can pull for teams I would like to see win or against UK. Go Louisville, and Go Ohio St (Paulus).

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2012, 08:37 PM
Yet to be vacated, I suppose. Sometimes the wheels of justice turn slowly.

Once he leaves Kentucky it will be I'm sure.

elvis14
03-25-2012, 08:38 PM
The worst possible tournament outcome occurred on Mar 16 when we lost to Lehigh.

Sorry but our loss to Lehigh coupled with UNC@CH winning the NC is MUCH worse than us losing to Lehigh and UNC@CH losing to KU.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-25-2012, 08:38 PM
HA! Great minds think alike! I was pulling for the higher seed in every game until the Heels finally went down. I hated pulling against NC State, but there is just no way I wanted to see State as the barrier between UNC and the Final Four. (Though State beating UNC today would have been a very interesting scenario. IC would have crashed beyond repair).

Now that the evil empire is just another one of the 67 losers, I can pull for teams I would like to see win or against UK. Go Louisville, and Go Ohio St (Paulus).

Exactly! It reminds of 2009 when the only team I thought that could be UNC was UCON and they somehow lost to MSU who had a snowballs chance of winning. Didn't even bother to watch the following Monday.

howardlander
03-25-2012, 08:38 PM
Well, I'm an alumnus of 1989 so the "regular season title" was not recognized in my years either. But I think the very next year or two it started, so it's been recognized for over 20 years by now. It counts.

I take your point about the unbalanced schedule, but to me, UNC clearly had the better year in every respect:

Head to head we split, but our one win was on a last second shot; they blew us out in Cameron.
They finished a game ahead of us in the ACC standings, largely because they went 2-0 vs. Miami and we went 0-1.
They went 2-1 in the ACCT; we went 1-1
They went 3-1 in the NCAAT; we went 0-1
They won 32 games to our 27 (yes we had a tougher OOC schedule, but better to win them)

If we played better and our results more closely mirrored Carolina's this year, then I think we could justify dissecting the unbalanced schedule to figure out how to break the tie. But I think the unbalanced schedule is irrelevant considering the above difference in results.

I wish it were otherwise, but to me, we have to face facts and admit we were, on the whole, bested this year by them. As someone noted, all the more reason to redouble efforts next year.

Oh, I agree with you on that point. Don't get me wrong, I do think they had a better year than Duke did. But I was just responding to the idea of a UNC championship. To me, the last championship Carolina won was the National championship in 09. They did finish a game ahead in the ACC standings and that's important because it's always more fun to watch your team win. But basketball at both the collegiate and NBA level is a tournament sport. Here's an example: Who had the best record in the NBA last year? I'm an NBA fan, and I don't know off the top of my head. But I know who won the title...

Howard

OldSchool
03-25-2012, 08:39 PM
White with 7 assists and zero turnovers: Ironically, it was Marshall's 3-pt shooting that was missed the most.

Teams in the last month have been doubling Zeller and daring Marshall to beat them with wide open threes. Marshall has hit those shots and UNC won.

White was 0-3 from three and decided not to even attempt more.

And of course Barnes was 0-5 from three point land.

And Bullock was 1-5 from three.

Tar heel fans have constantly derided Duke this year as merely a "live by the 3, die by the 3" team - what sweet irony that the Heels died by the three. 2 of 17 for 11.8% - ouch!

gumbomoop
03-25-2012, 08:39 PM
I believe if you count scholarships 2 of the underclassmen have to leave or someone loses a scholarship.

I count 10 returning players - if all 4 of McAdoo, Marshall, Henson, and Barnes return - and 4 recruits coming in, so that would be 1 over. But one of the 10 returnees is Jackson Simmons, and I'm uncertain of his scholarship status. I assume White's departure for his mission means his scholarship is available. But I bet other posters are more informed on this stuff than I.

miramar
03-25-2012, 08:39 PM
Barnes is a mystery. For one described by Roy at beginning of last season as the most driven player he'd ever seen, well, something happened. Barnes certainly looks passive, frequently. Mystery.

Roy was referring to the fact that, in order the protect the future "Air Barnes" brand, Nike is providing him with an around-the-clock chauffeur service. Barnes is the most driven player Roy's ever had simply because he never walks anywhere.

WakeDevil
03-25-2012, 08:40 PM
Very happy to see tears flowing down the cheeks of Tarheel Fans. Hopefully military personnel in North Carolina will give Representative Brad Miller verbal hell Monday morning. For his tasteless joke about rooting for the Taliban if it was against Duke!


Maybe we can get you a sense of humor for Christmas.

elvis14
03-25-2012, 08:40 PM
Tar heel fans have constantly derided Duke this year as merely a "live by the 3, die by the 3" team - what sweet irony that the Heels died by the three. 2 of 17 for 11.8% - ouch!

That's a great point. Can I steal that and post it on Facebook?

uh_no
03-25-2012, 08:42 PM
Well, I'm an alumnus of 1989 so the "regular season title" was not recognized in my years either. But I think the very next year or two it started, so it's been recognized for over 20 years by now. It counts.

I take your point about the unbalanced schedule, but to me, UNC clearly had the better year in every respect:

Head to head we split, but our one win was on a last second shot; they blew us out in Cameron.
They finished a game ahead of us in the ACC standings, largely because they went 2-0 vs. Miami and we went 0-1.
They went 2-1 in the ACCT; we went 1-1
They went 3-1 in the NCAAT; we went 0-1
They won 32 games to our 27 (yes we had a tougher OOC schedule, but better to win them)

If we played better and our results more closely mirrored Carolina's this year, then I think we could justify dissecting the unbalanced schedule to figure out how to break the tie. But I think the unbalanced schedule is irrelevant considering the above difference in results.

I wish it were otherwise, but to me, we have to face facts and admit we were, on the whole, bested this year by them. As someone noted, all the more reason to redouble efforts next year.

But the thing is....by next year, or 2 years down the road, nobody will remember anything other than we split with UNC, neither team won the natty, and rivers' shot....10 years down the road nobody is going to say "but they won a few more games overall"

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 08:42 PM
Well, I'm an alumnus of 1989 so the "regular season title" was not recognized in my years either. But I think the very next year or two it started, so it's been recognized for over 20 years by now. It counts.

I take your point about the unbalanced schedule, but to me, UNC clearly had the better year in every respect:

Head to head we split, but our one win was on a last second shot; they blew us out in Cameron.
They finished a game ahead of us in the ACC standings, largely because they went 2-0 vs. Miami and we went 0-1.
They went 2-1 in the ACCT; we went 1-1
They went 3-1 in the NCAAT; we went 0-1
They won 32 games to our 27 (yes we had a tougher OOC schedule, but better to win them)

If we played better and our results more closely mirrored Carolina's this year, then I think we could justify dissecting the unbalanced schedule to figure out how to break the tie. But I think the unbalanced schedule is irrelevant considering the above difference in results.

I wish it were otherwise, but to me, we have to face facts and admit we were, on the whole, bested this year by them. As someone noted, all the more reason to redouble efforts next year.

We did best them in one area though, Duke had more quality wins than UNC. Even their 3 NCAA tourney wins were all against unranked teams. In their first game in the tourney against a ranked team (today) they lost. No sympathy from me on the injuries either. I was told last year that injuries were just part of the game, and deal with it. Ok. I am fine with that approach.:D

Devilsfan
03-25-2012, 08:45 PM
Roy is still a great recruiter even if he is not that great an in game coach. He is deep at most positions. It's the two PG position injuries that finally got him. Now he knows what we have gone through this season without a star D1 point guard.

pamtar
03-25-2012, 08:45 PM
and the one ring remains hidden from Sauron for yet another year, but we must stay ever vigilant and redouble our efforts next season!

-c

One does not simply walk in to St. Louis and beat Kansas!

DUKIE V(A)
03-25-2012, 08:46 PM
I thought UNC played remarkably well without Marshall. Part of the closeness was some boneheaded play by KU (anyone see Young's pulling guard pick on White?), but UNC deserves some credit.

Zeller was great and McAdoo looked really good, like a young Worthy. Barnes had a good first half, but really has his limitations. I'm guessing he leaves UNC with fewer NCAA titles than Lance Thomas.

And will even if he stays two more years.

jipops
03-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Now we wait to see who comes back. We return Marshall and McAdoo and we will be okay. We return three of the four and we'll be very good. We may both be looking up at NCSU in the standings.

I think it's possible everyone will, how crazy is that? Though I'm thinking Barnes will be back along with James Michael and Kendall. So UNC will still be the top dog.

In one way, it's almost been a blessing in disguise that Barnes chose the heels over Duke. If he were a Blue Devil producing the same numbers we would be hearing about another over-hyped Duke bust that K won't develop. Ofcourse Roy won't get that kind of feedback. Just further proves my long standing argument that players themselves are ultimately the ones that produce players. I think Barnes played himself right out of the lottery this past week.

roywhite
03-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Maybe we can get you a sense of humor for Christmas.

Well, include me in that if you like, and many others who thought Congressman Miller's comment was stupid and out-of-line.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 08:47 PM
Every point here looks about right to me. I do want to acknowledge that you have pointed out for some weeks, and maybe all season, that UNC just can't hit the 3s. I wasn't persuaded, as I was fooled by how smooth Barnes and Bullock look when they shoot it. Hairston, I don't know. In this regard, losing MCDonald didn't help, either.

So injuries - lots of injuries, not really fair - finally took the toll: no Strickland as PG and D, no McDonald, and especially no Marshall. And your point re Henson is spot on, as well. Henson was hurting today, obviously. Only 1 block. Tentative.

Barnes is a mystery. For one described by Roy at beginning of last season as the most driven player he'd ever seen, well, something happened. Barnes certainly looks passive, frequently. Mystery.

I thought at beginning of this season that McAdoo was 2d best frosh, after Anthony Davis. MK-G at UK maybe is 2d, but McAdoo is next great Heel, if he stays.

Heels could lose 4 to early entry, or none. I'll predict none, or maybe one. I'd think Marshall wants his chance, and McAdoo, whose stock has skyrocketed [Charles Barkley said repeatedly he's the Heels' best player] will stay. Henson? No clue. Barnes has a tough decision, as he might improve his lottery spot if he gets a handle; but he could slide if he stays and doesn't prove to be consistent, better handle, D, rebounder, more aggressiveness.

Heels could be overwhelming #1 preseason. If at least 2 of the 4 stay, top 3-4 preseason.

I've been on the fence regarding Barnes since he got to UNC, and agree he's a mystery.

I like his game for his size, but I've never been sold on his NBA prospects like all the media talk. You guys will note I've never been gushing about his NBA possibilities, like I have for Henson since day one, for instance. I've just sort of stayed quiet and observed, because I've really just been unsure what to think of his game.

He has a feathery shot, but everything else is average to me. He can go first round, but I doubt he's in the lottery after his play this season. Mid first round. There is a good chance he stays, I think.

Zeller is a solid 12 year NBA player and should go late lottery, IMO.

Henson's emerging face up game. Has him in the top 5 should he decide to leave. Big decision coming for him.

McAdoo has helped himself get into the lottery based on the potential everyone sees. Big decision for him too. My sense is he will stay and be the man next season. It would really make him better, but would never fault him for going lottery.

Marshall is mid to late first round. He stays unless some team with a big need at point really makes a push for him and moves him way up.

Will be interesting to see how the spring unfolds, for sure.

OldSchool
03-25-2012, 08:47 PM
Barnes will be a better NBA player than a college player.

With the post clogged by Henson and Zeller and given the slow pace of the college game (even for teams that like to run) compared to the NBA, Barnes turns into mostly a jump shooter. Even when they give him the ball to post up his man Zeller and Henson can't really pull their defenders out of the paint. Given a higher paced game and NBA style offense, Barnes will be more effective.

OldSchool
03-25-2012, 08:48 PM
That's a great point. Can I steal that and post it on Facebook?

I hereby grant you an unrestricted license to rub it into their faces at every opportunity.

WiJoe
03-25-2012, 08:50 PM
This might be the BEST post title EVER.

robobevan
03-25-2012, 08:51 PM
I think we've been through this about a million times. Both the ACC regular season and ACC tournament winners are recognized by the league. The latter is the ACC Champion and the former is the ACC Regular Season Champion. Very hard for me to believe we wouldn't count as a feather in our cap a regular season championship if the shoe were on the other foot.

Of course it would count as a feather. This is a rivalry not logic. Just havin fun.

gumbomoop
03-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Roy was referring to the fact that, in order the protect the future "Air Barnes" brand, Nike is providing him with an around-the-clock chauffeur service. Barnes is the most driven player Roy's ever had simply because he never walks anywhere.

Ah, ok, that would explain it. This certainly makes more sense than Barnes's strangely disinterested, and often uninteresting, game.

CDu
03-25-2012, 08:53 PM
I count 10 returning players - if all 4 of McAdoo, Marshall, Henson, and Barnes return - and 4 recruits coming in, so that would be 1 over. But one of the 10 returnees is Jackson Simmons, and I'm uncertain of his scholarship status. I assume White's departure for his mission means his scholarship is available. But I bet other posters are more informed on this stuff than I.

I count 15: Marshall, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, Bullock, Barnes, Paige, Takoto, McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Henson, Simmons, White. Now I don't know what White's status is (redshirts count against your scholarship count - not sure how Mormon missions count). And Simmons could theoretically be relieved of his scholarship for a year. But that's still 13 even without those two guys.

#1Duke
03-25-2012, 08:55 PM
Roy is still a great recruiter even if he is not that great an in game coach. He is deep at most positions. It's the two PG position injuries that finally got him. Now he knows what we have gone through this season without a star D1 point guard.

Sigh, there is no such animal. There are records, school standing, national exposure, perceived minutes available ( who a player is competing against for his spot ), program reputation, etc. etc. but there is no such thing as a "good recruiter".
No such thing as a silver tongued devil that is able to hypnotize young recruits into a poor program with a poor record and poor reputation. Doesn't happen.... ever.
A school, ANY school, gets top recruits based on record and program, not on a coach waving a gold watch in their face while chanting " You will play for ........... ".

howardlander
03-25-2012, 08:56 PM
Barnes will be a better NBA player than a college player.


I wonder about Barnes in the NBA. What's his position? I assume he will be a three, but I don't think either his size or athleticism are above average for an NBA three. Not to say I don't think he will make the NBA, but I think he will have to become a much more consistent shooter and driver if he wants to be more than just another NBA player. And if you watch much NBA, you know that NBA defense, particularly once the playoffs start, is often ferocious in a way I've never seen out of him. Has he really improved much over last year? I think a lot of college fans don't watch much NBA, and don't understand just how much higher the level of play is.

#1Duke
03-25-2012, 08:57 PM
I count 16: Marshall, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, Bullock, Barnes, Paige, Takoto, McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Henson, James, Simmons, White. Now I don't know what White's status is (redshirts count against your scholarship count - not sure how Mormon missions count). And Simmons could theoretically be relieved of his scholarship for a year. But that's still 14 even without those two guys.

I know that White will be gone for 2 years on his mission trip .

CDu
03-25-2012, 08:58 PM
I know that White will be gone for 2 years on his mission trip .

I know. That's why I said I'm unsure what the rules are regarding mission trips.

freedevil
03-25-2012, 09:01 PM
Bum, bada bum bum bada bum bum, Go Devils!
Bum, bada bum bum bada bum bum, Go Devils!

Thank God for Bill Self. And now there's someone (Thomas Robinson) to actually root for in this thing (other than Greg Paulus).

OldSchool
03-25-2012, 09:01 PM
I wonder about Barnes in the NBA. What's his position? I assume he will be a three, but I don't think either his size or athleticism are above average for an NBA three. Not to say I don't think he will make the NBA, but I think he will have to become a much more consistent shooter and driver if he wants to be more than just another NBA player. And if you watch much NBA, you know that NBA defense, particularly once the playoffs start, is often ferocious in a way I've never seen out of him. Has he really improved much over last year? I think a lot of college fans don't watch much NBA, and don't understand just how much higher the level of play is.

Yes, a three. My own observation is that he is quite athletic and highly coordinated, which we see in flashes now and then, but that his constrained role within UNC's team with Zeller and Henson limited his potential.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 09:02 PM
Barnes will be a better NBA player than a college player.

With the post clogged by Henson and Zeller and given the slow pace of the college game (even for teams that like to run) compared to the NBA, Barnes turns into mostly a jump shooter. Even when they give him the ball to post up his man Zeller and Henson can't really pull their defenders out of the paint. Given a higher paced game and NBA style offense, Barnes will be more effective.

I will respectfully disagree. Barnes has great trouble taking college defenders to the rack, due to lack of ball handling, and athletic ability. His spin moves are incredibly awkward off the bounce. He is not a great leaper, and simply uses his length, strength, and height to finish (when he does finish). In the NBA, he will be defended by great athlete's, who are just as strong and just as quick, night in and night out. I don't think he has shown the ability to be successful in that scenario.

I also agree that coming back next year is a high risk move. He was safely in the lottery last year, but will slide to late lottery if he comes out now. Should he return and have another so so year, he likely slips down into late first round. That is a lot of money.

Barnes has an incredibly tough choice in front of him. Will be interesting to see what he does.

Devilsfan
03-25-2012, 09:03 PM
Someone needs to explain to Mr. Barnes that a falcon is a bird of prey. He is such a nice guy (helping an opponent from getting hurt on the base line) that he may have chosen the wrong school to go to. Except for an ill advised skipe recruiting announcement he seems like an intelligent (Duke like) young man.

Greg_Newton
03-25-2012, 09:04 PM
I count 15: Marshall, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, Bullock, Barnes, Paige, Takoto, McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Henson, Simmons, White. Now I don't know what White's status is (redshirts count against your scholarship count - not sure how Mormon missions count). And Simmons could theoretically be relieved of his scholarship for a year. But that's still 13 even without those two guys.

I'm pretty sure Mormon missions don't count against your scholarships (or why they would) - I think that was one of the main reasons Roy recruited him in the first place. And Simmons came in with the understanding that he was an "invited walk-on" that could play on the varsity, with scholarship stuff "working itself out" - I don't think they'd hesitate to pull that if necessary, so they'd be fine even if everyone came back.

However, that better not be an issue!

OldSchool
03-25-2012, 09:04 PM
I will respectfully disagree. Barnes has great trouble taking college defenders to the rack, due to lack of ball handling, and athletic ability. His spin moves are incredibly awkward off the bounce. He is not a great leaper, and simply uses his length, strength, and height to finish (when he does finish). In the NBA, he will be defended by great athlete's, who are just as strong and just as quick, night in and night out. I don't think he has shown the ability to be successful in that scenario.

I also agree that coming back next year is a high risk move. He was safely in the lottery last year, but will slide to late lottery if he comes out now. Should he return and have another so so year, he likely slips down into late first round. That is a lot of money.

Barnes has an incredibly tough choice in front of him. Will be interesting to see what he does.

I certainly agree with you that he should go pro now. I will be completely gob-smacked if he doesn't.

El_Diablo
03-25-2012, 09:05 PM
I count 15: Marshall, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, Bullock, Barnes, Paige, Takoto, McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Henson, Simmons, White. Now I don't know what White's status is (redshirts count against your scholarship count - not sure how Mormon missions count). And Simmons could theoretically be relieved of his scholarship for a year. But that's still 13 even without those two guys.

Simmons was recruited as a non-scholarship player (I believe they called him a "preferred walk-on" or something like that) and White will not count against them.

Furniture
03-25-2012, 09:05 PM
Berkeley said Mcadoo was the best player in the first half. Where was he in the second?
Did ole Roy even give any playing time?

I am SO happy!

gumbomoop
03-25-2012, 09:05 PM
I count 15: Marshall, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, Bullock, Barnes, Paige, Takoto, McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Henson, Simmons, White. Now I don't know what White's status is (redshirts count against your scholarship count - not sure how Mormon missions count). And Simmons could theoretically be relieved of his scholarship for a year. But that's still 13 even without those two guys.

This is going to get confusing, and it'll all work out in the next month. But I think you and I are saying the same thing. The issue is: if all of the 4 return, what's the Heels' scholarship situation?

I, too, count 13 [the limit], if, as I believe, White's mission years don't count as a scholly; and if Simmons is on the "you-have-a-scholly-if-one's-available" deal. Isn't Simmons, technically, a walk-on, but on scholly this year?

robobevan
03-25-2012, 09:06 PM
Harrison Barnes is Ricky Price with a better outside shot. Both are limited by a poor handle.

Reilly
03-25-2012, 09:06 PM
UNC -- offensive juggernaut!


0 pts. in last 3:58...

So that means the Heels played 39:46 @ FSU and 36:02 today?

superdave
03-25-2012, 09:07 PM
As for Barnes...... his confidence went off a cliff.

Unpossible.

OldSchool
03-25-2012, 09:09 PM
Someone needs to explain to Mr. Barnes that a falcon is a bird of prey. He is such a nice guy (helping an opponent from getting hurt on the base line) that he may have chosen the wrong school to go to. Except for an ill advised skipe recruiting announcement he seems like an intelligent (Duke like) young man.

As much as K is criticized for big men, he has turned out some great small forwards like Hill, Battier, Deng, Singler.

Barnes may have done better in K's system than Roy's, but he would have had to play behind Kyle for a year.

Indoor66
03-25-2012, 09:09 PM
So Duke/UNC split the season series, neither won the ACC tournament, and neither made the Final Four. I'm calling this season a tie! Bring on 2013!

Except that we have a win over Kansas this year. :cool:

Billy Dat
03-25-2012, 09:10 PM
Bill Simmons ‏ @sportsguy33
When it rains in LA, every driver turns into Harrison Barnes during a big game.

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:22 PM
I know that White will be gone for 2 years on his mission trip .

Crud! Where are they going to find another 1-2 star PG??

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:24 PM
I will respectfully disagree. Barnes has great trouble taking college defenders to the rack, due to lack of ball handling, and athletic ability. His spin moves are incredibly awkward off the bounce. He is not a great leaper, and simply uses his length, strength, and height to finish (when he does finish). In the NBA, he will be defended by great athlete's, who are just as strong and just as quick, night in and night out. I don't think he has shown the ability to be successful in that scenario.

I also agree that coming back next year is a high risk move. He was safely in the lottery last year, but will slide to late lottery if he comes out now. Should he return and have another so so year, he likely slips down into late first round. That is a lot of money.

Barnes has an incredibly tough choice in front of him. Will be interesting to see what he does.

Personally I think Barnes is lazy... doesn't put the work in and seems to take plays off in games.

I wonder if it's personality or arrogance... or a little of both.

CDu
03-25-2012, 09:24 PM
This is going to get confusing, and it'll all work out in the next month. But I think you and I are saying the same thing. The issue is: if all of the 4 return, what's the Heels' scholarship situation?

I, too, count 13 [the limit], if, as I believe, White's mission years don't count as a scholly; and if Simmons is on the "you-have-a-scholly-if-one's-available" deal. Isn't Simmons, technically, a walk-on, but on scholly this year?

Yup. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Marshall and Henson are the keys. Barnes and McAdoo sre nice players but without Marshall and Henson that is a fairly "meh" team.

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 09:26 PM
But the thing is....by next year, or 2 years down the road, nobody will remember anything other than we split with UNC, neither team won the natty, and rivers' shot....10 years down the road nobody is going to say "but they won a few more games overall"

They may not remember those things but I assure you, UNC fans will remember Lehigh, even more than we recount Weber State - you can count on it. They'll probably remember the blowout in Cameron for awhile, but at least it wasn't 82-50. For awhile it looked like it might be.

But yes, we'll always remember AR's "the shot" - even more if Zeller proves to be as exasperatingly solid in the NBA as he was in college.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 09:27 PM
Guys, cut out the sniping. This is a celebratory thread. Enjoy the fall of the Heels and stop taking shots at each other.

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:29 PM
They may not remember those things but I assure you, UNC fans will remember Lehigh, even more than we recount Weber State - you can count on it. They'll probably remember the blowout in Cameron for awhile, but at least it wasn't 82-50. For awhile it looked like it might be.

But yes, we'll always remember AR's "the shot" - even more if Zeller proves to be as exasperatingly solid in the NBA as he was in college.

This is true. They're already harping on it.

My point back is, who cares? Neither team won the championship.

Ur
Not
Champs

DukeGirl4ever
03-25-2012, 09:32 PM
Not sure anyone posted this (I didn't go through all the pages), but my favorite threads on IC are....

~Barnes should go pro. Roy should retire.

~Eating one of your own (probably my fave)

~Window closed for at least 2 years

~Barnes is a wide receiver

~Anybody with a brain....

~Roy more popular in Kansas than ever before

~So that wasn't a foul ref?

:D:D:D:D

cspan37421
03-25-2012, 09:34 PM
They're already harping on it.

My point back is, who cares?

I think you answered your own question.

gumbomoop
03-25-2012, 09:37 PM
Yup. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Marshall and Henson are the keys. Barnes and McAdoo sre nice players but without Marshall and Henson that is a fairly "meh" team.

I think McAdoo is much better than a nice player, but I don't mean to nitpick [just now .... plenty of time for that to come..... ]

Most interesting will be whether this is a sort of falling dominoes situation. I have to believe Marshall would like a shot at the NC. Hard to imagine him staying, however, if both McAdoo and Henson depart, because Desmond Hubert and the new guys are a bit of a come-down from Zeller, Henson, and McAdoo. Wow.

#1Duke
03-25-2012, 09:37 PM
Not sure anyone posted this (I didn't go through all the pages), but my favorite threads on IC are....

~Barnes should go pro. Roy should retire.

~Eating one of your own (probably my fave)

~Window closed for at least 2 years

~Barnes is a wide receiver

~Anybody with a brain....

~Roy more popular in Kansas than ever before

~So that wasn't a foul ref?

:D:D:D:D

I'm glad we don't allow those type threads here!!

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:38 PM
~So that wasn't a foul ref?


It still amazes me at how much UNC fans revert to being State fans once they lose a game.

Kansas had more fouls (before they started fouling intentionally), more guys in foul trouble.... usually the excuse UNC uses is that the other team shot more 3s. Not this game...

But yea, totally the ref's fault. :rolleyes:

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 09:41 PM
I think McAdoo is much better than a nice player, but I don't mean to nitpick [just now .... plenty of time for that to come..... ]

Most interesting will be whether this is a sort of falling dominoes situation. I have to believe Marshall would like a shot at the NC. Hard to imagine him staying, however, if both McAdoo and Henson depart, because Desmond Hubert and the new guys are a bit of a come-down from Zeller, Henson, and McAdoo. Wow.

McAdoo had a nice post season, but did pretty much nothing during the regular season. I agree the potential is there to be a really good player, but as expected he did not approach the level of success that Marvin Williams and Brandon Wright had in their one season at UNC.

That said, I will not be disappointed at all if he takes the money and runs. :cool:

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:42 PM
McAdoo had a nice post season, but did pretty much nothing during the regular season. I agree the potential is there to be a really good player, but as expected he did not approach the level of success that Marvin Williams and Brandon Wright had in their one season at UNC.

That said, I will not be disappointed at all if he takes the money and runs. :cool:

Agreed. I think he's going to be a monster if he stays.

I think he didn't do much this year because of Roy's rotation and because he had Henson and Zeller in front of him.

DukeGirl4ever
03-25-2012, 09:44 PM
It still amazes me at how much UNC fans revert to being State fans once they lose a game.

Kansas had more fouls (before they started fouling intentionally), more guys in foul trouble.... usually the excuse UNC uses is that the other team shot more 3s. Not this game...

But yea, totally the ref's fault. :rolleyes:

I really only intensely watched the 2nd half, and I thought the officiating was excellent. Sure, there's always going to be one or two calls that could go either way, but that's the game.

I never blame a loss on a ref....except when Karl Hess and Ted Valentine are involved! ;)

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:46 PM
I really only intensely watched the 2nd half, and I thought the officiating was excellent. Sure, there's always going to be one or two calls that could go either way, but that's the game.

I never blame a loss on a ref....except when Karl Hess and Ted Valentine are involved! ;)

Yea the officiating was pretty even overall.

Though I *wanted* it to be lopsided for KU. :cool:

El_Diablo
03-25-2012, 09:49 PM
2494

gumbomoop
03-25-2012, 09:51 PM
McAdoo had a nice post season, but did pretty much nothing during the regular season. I agree the potential is there to be a really good player, but as expected he did not approach the level of success that Marvin Williams and Brandon Wright had in their one season at UNC.

That said, I will not be disappointed at all if he takes the money and runs. :cool:

Yes, McAdoo's underwhelming season, until lately, surprised me, as I was so, so impressed with him in last year's HS all-star games. I was relieved when he came around. [Doesn't sound quite right. Was I actually happy when he started playing well?]

But surely Charles Barkley and I cannot be the only people who think he's soon to be a great player. Help me out here.

If he stays, I swear he's the next great Heel. So, I'm hoping Charles Barkley's hype will move him up to NBA #2, ahead of MK-G, and he says good-bye and thanks for the memories.

Edit: But if Marshall stays, no matter what Barnes and Henson do, I think McAdoo stays.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 09:54 PM
Yea the officiating was pretty even overall.

Though I *wanted* it to be lopsided for KU. :cool:

The two blocking calls involving Barnes were the only two calls I saw that were questionable and both favored UNC. With 2 minutes left, UNC had only committed 4 fouls in the 2nd half. Kind of hard to blame the ref's with that factoid.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-25-2012, 09:55 PM
2494

"How could Marshall do this TO ME!"

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 09:56 PM
The two blocking calls involving Barnes were the only two calls I saw that were questionable and both favored UNC. With 2 minutes left, UNC had only committed 4 fouls in the 2nd half. Kind of hard to blame the ref's with that factoid.

That actually hurt them a little in the end, since they had to burn time fouling to put KU on the line.

So, in that regard, I guess it *was* the officiating's fault. ;)

Greg_Newton
03-25-2012, 09:57 PM
My wish list for UNC players going pro:

1. Henson
2. Marshall
3. McAdoo
4. Barnes

That's also probably the order I'd draft them, as a GM. Supposedly, they're all projected lottery - I'd guess that Henson and Barnes are goners, and that Marshall is more likely than not to go too. I imagine McAdoo will follow in the regressive footsteps of Ed Davis, John Henson and Harrison Barnes and turn down the lottery, though.

ETA: McAdoo would absolutely go lottery if he jumped, scouts LOVE him.

MaxAMillion
03-25-2012, 09:59 PM
I think we've been through this about a million times. Both the ACC regular season and ACC tournament winners are recognized by the league. The latter is the ACC Champion and the former is the ACC Regular Season Champion. Very hard for me to believe we wouldn't count as a feather in our cap a regular season championship if the shoe were on the other foot.

You said it in your post...ACC Champion. UNC hasn't been ACC champion for a few years and I like it.

Sgt. Dingleberry
03-25-2012, 10:01 PM
I've been on the fence regarding Barnes since he got to UNC, and agree he's a mystery.

I like his game for his size, but I've never been sold on his NBA prospects like all the media talk. You guys will note I've never been gushing about his NBA possibilities, like I have for Henson since day one, for instance. I've just sort of stayed quiet and observed, because I've really just been unsure what to think of his game.

He has a feathery shot, but everything else is average to me. He can go first round, but I doubt he's in the lottery after his play this season. Mid first round. There is a good chance he stays, I think.

Zeller is a solid 12 year NBA player and should go late lottery, IMO.

Henson's emerging face up game. Has him in the top 5 should he decide to leave. Big decision coming for him.

McAdoo has helped himself get into the lottery based on the potential everyone sees. Big decision for him too. My sense is he will stay and be the man next season. It would really make him better, but would never fault him for going lottery.

Marshall is mid to late first round. He stays unless some team with a big need at point really makes a push for him and moves him way up.

Will be interesting to see how the spring unfolds, for sure.

Agree with everything you said, except about Henson. If he puts on 40 lbs in the next week, then we can talk top 5, but he isn't there right now. He went up against a NBA level front line today and was not particularly impressive. Until the kid puts some meat on his bones he will get pushed around in the NBA and deal with injuries, which we have already seen in college. He's late lottery.

I'm really interested to indulge in the Black Pigeon's fallout. His stock could plummet.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-25-2012, 10:03 PM
My wish list for UNC players going pro:

1. Henson
2. Marshall
3. McAdoo
4. Barnes

That's also probably the order I'd draft them, as a GM. Supposedly, they're all projected lottery - I'd guess that Henson and Barnes are goners, and that Marshall is more likely than not to go too. I imagine McAdoo will follow in the regressive footsteps of Ed Davis, John Henson and Harrison Barnes and turn down the lottery, though.

ETA: McAdoo would absolutely go lottery if he jumped, scouts LOVE him.

Marshall is the key; he's what keeps Henson, Barnes, and McAdoo "well-fed". If Marshall goes, they ALL go(although, as I posted earlier, ego may keep Barnes around regardless).

CDu
03-25-2012, 10:08 PM
The two blocking calls involving Barnes were the only two calls I saw that were questionable and both favored UNC. With 2 minutes left, UNC had only committed 4 fouls in the 2nd half. Kind of hard to blame the ref's with that factoid.

There were several that went KU's way too though. Early on Withey got away with a charge. Robinson got away with one too, and alsO got away with several obvious travels. Basically there was almost no such thing as a charge tonight. Some good and some bad, but pretty balanced.

uh_no
03-25-2012, 10:08 PM
2494

wonder if this is a ploy to help his "brand"

then he can sell his rookie NBA season as a quest for redemption

Troublemaker
03-25-2012, 10:16 PM
Marshall's the big one. If you can guarantee me that he goes and the rest stays, I'd probably take it right now.

I have it Marshall > Henson >>>>> McAdoo > Barnes

I like JMM but he's not going to impact the game as a sophomore as much as Marshall or a senior Henson would. Marshall is their offense. Henson is their defense.

As for Barnes... if Marshall and Henson go... I kinda want Barnes to stay. Want to rack up a few more wins against that guy.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 10:18 PM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

uh_no
03-25-2012, 10:20 PM
Marshall's the big one. If you can guarantee me that he goes and the rest stays, I'd probably take it right now.

I have it Marshall > Henson >>>>> McAdoo > Barnes

I like JMM but he's not going to impact the game as a sophomore as much as Marshall or a senior Henson would. Marshall is their offense. Henson is their defense.

As for Barnes... if Marshall and Henson go... I kinda want Barnes to stay. Want to rack up a few more wins against that guy.

I think he's gonna stay...wants to add another preseason all-american and in-season letdown to his resume

CDu
03-25-2012, 10:24 PM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

My take on that play (I sm assuming we are talking about the same play - there were very few plays in which Henson attacked) was that Henson jumped into Withey. Withey maintained his verticality, thus it was a no-call. That's not to say that officials don't sometimes call the foul there. Just that I think no call was correct. Withey had the right to that space on the floor.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 10:25 PM
I know we give Ol Roy an incredibly hard time around here, sometimes justly, other times not so much, but I was just reading the post game article on WRAL and saw the video caption embedded down near the bottom of the article of the post game presser. Roy sent Zeller and Stillman White. I find that to be a bit unfair to White. Barnes is your guy, send him, or Henson. White is a little used freshman 2 Star recruit forced into action due to injuries. I think that alone is enough pressure to put on that type of kid. To me, sending him to the presser instead of the big time 5 star recruits that failed to get it done is just wrong.

In fairness, Roy praised White's play to the nth degree in the presser, so maybe in his mind, he felt like bringing White to the presser was a way to honor his play. I still think it's unfair for White to have to take the questions from the media in those circumstances though. The recruited players should bear that burden in my humble opinion.

What do you guys think? Fair or unfair to send White out there?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/

Wander
03-25-2012, 10:26 PM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

One of my favorite things that sports fans do is complain about a call immediately followed by the statement "I'm not complaining about that call."

A popular alternate to this is "The refs were bad for both teams, like the time that <<insert play X that hurt my team>>"

Furniture
03-25-2012, 10:28 PM
To celebrate the night. I have just watched the Duke vs.Butler 2010 final again
Perfect......

WiJoe
03-25-2012, 10:28 PM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

Hey, you know what, go ahead and look at it. We'll all wait here for you to come back and tell us what REALLY happened. Please hurry, We can't wait.

"mental pressing" ... oh, brother. You're a hoot.

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 10:28 PM
I know we give Ol Roy an incredibly hard time around here, sometimes justly, other times not so much, but I was just reading the post game article on WRAL and saw the video caption embedded down near the bottom of the article of the post game presser. Roy sent Zeller and Stillman White. I find that to be a bit unfair to White. Barnes is your guy, send him, or Henson. White is a little used freshman 2 Star recruit forced into action due to injuries. I think that alone is enough pressure to put on that type of kid. To me, sending him to the presser instead of the big time 5 star recruits that failed to get it done is just wrong.

In fairness, Roy praised White's play to the nth degree in the presser, so maybe in his mind, he felt like bringing White to the presser was a way to honor his play. I still think it's unfair for White to have to take the questions from the media in those circumstances though. The recruited players should bear that burden in my humble opinion.

What do you guys think? Fair or unfair to send White out there?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/

It wouldn't have been the first time Roy left a player out to dry this season...

MarkD83
03-25-2012, 10:30 PM
I know we give Ol Roy an incredibly hard time around here, sometimes justly, other times not so much, but I was just reading the post game article on WRAL and saw the video caption embedded down near the bottom of the article of the post game presser. Roy sent Zeller and Stillman White. I find that to be a bit unfair to White. Barnes is your guy, send him, or Henson. White is a little used freshman 2 Star recruit forced into action due to injuries. I think that alone is enough pressure to put on that type of kid. To me, sending him to the presser instead of the big time 5 star recruits that failed to get it done is just wrong.

In fairness, Roy praised White's play to the nth degree in the presser, so maybe in his mind, he felt like bringing White to the presser was a way to honor his play. I still think it's unfair for White to have to take the questions from the media in those circumstances though. The recruited players should bear that burden in my humble opinion.

What do you guys think? Fair or unfair to send White out there?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/

Stillman White performed great in the two games without Marshall so I believe sending him to the press conference was a reward. Even though the game was a loss what a memory for him that he came in and did his job in the past two games.

Devilsfan
03-25-2012, 10:31 PM
Why send Henson or Barnes to a situation like that when tonight he starts to try and convince them to return and give up the seven figures they will earn over the next four years. Save ol Roy and his seven figure salary at their expense. Nice guy, ol Roy.

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 10:36 PM
To celebrate the night. I have just watched the Duke vs.Butler 2010 final again
Perfect......

I celebrated by eating a Tar Heel burger at a local eatery and then eating a Tar Heel mint afterwards.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 10:37 PM
Stillman White performed great in the two games without Marshall so I believe sending him to the press conference was a reward. Even though the game was a loss what a memory for him that he came in and did his job in the past two games.

I thought he handled himself well on the court. His defense certainly hurt them with Taylor having the big game, but offensively, I felt he gave UNC all they could have hoped for and more until the final four minutes. He came a bit unglued there, but so did his teammates.

devildeac
03-25-2012, 10:45 PM
The two blocking calls involving Barnes were the only two calls I saw that were questionable and both favored UNC. With 2 minutes left, UNC had only committed 4 fouls in the 2nd half. Kind of hard to blame the ref's with that factoid.

You gotta be kidding, Newt! They actually called 4 fouls in the second half to that point against unc? No wonder the unc faithful are so upset. :rolleyes:

SoCalDukeFan
03-25-2012, 10:45 PM
I know we give Ol Roy an incredibly hard time around here, sometimes justly, other times not so much, but I was just reading the post game article on WRAL and saw the video caption embedded down near the bottom of the article of the post game presser. Roy sent Zeller and Stillman White. I find that to be a bit unfair to White. Barnes is your guy, send him, or Henson. White is a little used freshman 2 Star recruit forced into action due to injuries. I think that alone is enough pressure to put on that type of kid. To me, sending him to the presser instead of the big time 5 star recruits that failed to get it done is just wrong.

In fairness, Roy praised White's play to the nth degree in the presser, so maybe in his mind, he felt like bringing White to the presser was a way to honor his play. I still think it's unfair for White to have to take the questions from the media in those circumstances though. The recruited players should bear that burden in my humble opinion.

What do you guys think? Fair or unfair to send White out there?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/

I think it was a reward for White.
I also that, compared to say his supposed ability level, he played very well.
Much better than Barnes.

But White is not Marshall. Forget the stats, Marshall would have ate up the junk partial zone KS threw late in the game.
White did not want the ball in the last four minutes.

I am not trying to knock White. He made some very good plays during the game. If some of his teammates would have played better then they might have won. But I continue to think it was too big a stage for him.

SoCal

devildeac
03-25-2012, 10:50 PM
I'm surprised Roy still was on the floor/bench with his players when the game was no longer in doubt with about 14 seconds to go;):rolleyes:.

elvis14
03-25-2012, 10:53 PM
I'm surprised Roy still was on the floor/bench with his players when the game was no longer in doubt with about 14 seconds to go;):rolleyes:.

I wasn't sure if he was going to leave early or move over the Kansas bench ;)

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 10:55 PM
One of my favorite things that sports fans do is complain about a call immediately followed by the statement "I'm not complaining about that call."

A popular alternate to this is "The refs were bad for both teams, like the time that <<insert play X that hurt my team>>"

Geez...all I said was I'd like to see the play again. CBS never showed it and I like to look at key plays in a game with the benefit if replay.

KS outplayed UNC today in the elite eight game. I'm not making any excuses.

UNC panicked shortly after that sequence and started losing their composure, down six. That's what "mental pressing" meant. To me it was a big play and I'd just like to see it again. That's not gonna change anything, you know, they don't review a call, call everyone out of the locker rooms, because Wheat/"/"/" would like to see it again.

As for White out front at the presser, Roy was proud of him and wanted to acknowledge his excellent play under trying circumstances. The kid stepped up with 13 assists and 0 TO's in sweet sixteen and elite 8 tourney games. That's impressive for any PG, much less a third string freshman forced into the limelight after playing about 4 minutes a game all season.

Good for Roy, and I'm sure he wants fans of the game to start respecting Stillman White as a player. Like I said earlier, kids got some game. I hope he uses his two year mission to physically mature and comes back hungry, because he will see some minutes in the future.

UrinalCake
03-25-2012, 10:56 PM
My feeling is that of relief more than celebration. Still hard to feel super excited after how our season ended, it's not like we can go around mocking UNC fans when they made it so much farther than us and had all the injuries. So I'm simply glad that things didn't go from bad to worse and we can all move on.

Also if I'm Harrison Barnes then I'm TERRIFIED by the notion of coming back and having my stock fall through the floor. He's gotta go now while he's still probably a lottery pick.

Devilsfan
03-25-2012, 10:59 PM
Excuses, excuses, excuses. I am just glad Kansas won. A wonderful moment in triangle sport. Sad that KU had to do it for the pack but whatever it takes.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 11:01 PM
My take on that play (I sm assuming we are talking about the same play - there were very few plays in which Henson attacked) was that Henson jumped into Withey. Withey maintained his verticality, thus it was a no-call. That's not to say that officials don't sometimes call the foul there. Just that I think no call was correct. Withey had the right to that space on the floor.

You may very well be right, I didn't get a good look at the play.

Bojangles4Eva
03-25-2012, 11:04 PM
Obviously the ending of this season was not ideal, and the whole Kyrie injury was pretty brutal combined with the AZ loss, but take a moment to think what Carolina has accomplished in the last two seasons.......0 Tourney championships. Not early season, ACC, regional, or NCAA title (they didn't even get to hang an NIT banner 2 years ago). Yes they got two regular season ACC's, but they don't make banners or trophies for those.

Newton_14
03-25-2012, 11:08 PM
Geez...all I said was I'd like to see the play again. CBS never showed it and I like to look at key plays in a game with the benefit if replay.

KS outplayed UNC today in the elite eight game. I'm not making any excuses.

UNC panicked shortly after that sequence and started losing their composure, down six. That's what "mental pressing" meant. To me it was a big play and I'd just like to see it again. That's not gonna change anything, you know, they don't review a call, call everyone out of the locker rooms, because Wheat/"/"/" would like to see it again.

As for White out front at the presser, Roy was proud of him and wanted to acknowledge his excellent play under trying circumstances. The kid stepped up with 13 assists and 0 TO's in sweet sixteen and elite 8 tourney games. That's impressive for any PG, much less a third string freshman forced into the limelight after playing about 4 minutes a game all season.

Good for Roy, and I'm sure he wants fans of the game to start respecting Stillman White as a player. Like I said earlier, kids got some game. I hope he uses his two year mission to physically mature and comes back hungry, because he will see some minutes in the future.

They just showed the replay you are referring to on the local news here. Withey had all ball at the top, but he and Henson went chest to chest at the body level. Henson kind of took it up weakly there imo. Had he taken it up a little stronger he may have drawn a whistle. As it was, blowing the whistle there would have been a bit of a bailout call.

Even with that, you can't go almost the final 6 minutes without scoring in a championship game and expect to win. UNC got rattled in the last 5 minutes and could not score. That doomed them imo.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 11:12 PM
They just showed the replay you are referring to on the local news here. Withey had all ball at the top, but he and Henson went chest to chest at the body level. Henson kind of took it up weakly there imo. Had he taken it up a little stronger he may have drawn a whistle. As it was, blowing the whistle there would have been a bit of a bailout call.

Even with that, you can't go almost the final 6 minutes without scoring in a championship game and expect to win. UNC got rattled in the last 5 minutes and could not score. That doomed them imo.

No question UNC lost their composure and deserved to lose.

Maybe somebody can YouTube it?

FerryFor50
03-25-2012, 11:14 PM
No question UNC lost their composure and deserved to lose.

Maybe somebody can YouTube it?

Knowing Carolina fans, someone will.

Greg_Newton
03-25-2012, 11:15 PM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

FWIW, the SC highlight narrator agreed with you, but I thought it was the correct call (shocker). There was significant contact, but as CDu said, Withey completely maintained verticality, even got bumped back. If anything, I think it should have been a rarely-seen interpretation of the charge rule, but I thought it was a good no-call in that situation.

I'm impressed you're even here, though. If the tables were turned, I would be as far away as I could possibly get from any UNC fans right now.

ETA: You can see the replay if you turn on SC, it's in all the highlights.

uh_no
03-25-2012, 11:33 PM
Obviously the ending of this season was not ideal, and the whole Kyrie injury was pretty brutal combined with the AZ loss, but take a moment to think what Carolina has accomplished in the last two seasons.......0 Tourney championships. Not early season, ACC, regional, or NCAA title (they didn't even get to hang an NIT banner 2 years ago). Yes they got two regular season ACC's, but they don't make banners or trophies for those.

Take a look in cameron (or the dean dome) there are absolutely banners for those.

El_Diablo
03-25-2012, 11:34 PM
So apparently Roy didn't realize what defense Kansas was playing for much of the second half:


I asked Williams what impact the triangle-and-two had on his team. His answer was stunning.

“I know they did for one possession, and they may have for another possession,” Williams said. “I’m not sure about that.”

Williams clearly was unsure because from press row it looked like the Jayhawks played the triangle-and-two for nearly half of the final 20 minutes. The Jayhawks confirmed that they played the combo defense for the final eight or nine minutes.

“It put their guys who are not used to scoring the ball in position to score,” Kansas guard Tyshawn Taylor said. “It confused them a little bit. … We just switched our defense up a little bit, and it kind of took them out of what they wanted to run.”

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=Au4FKoT.mTGYnRoAUxyX7GjevbYF?slug=pf-forde_midwest_region_self_kansas_win_032512

ncexnyc
03-25-2012, 11:35 PM
wonder if this is a ploy to help his "brand"

then he can sell his rookie NBA season as a quest for redemption

I really don't care what it is. All I know is that it's going to be the latest addition to my screensaver at work.:D

gofurman
03-25-2012, 11:38 PM
Roy is still a great recruiter

Sigh, there is no such animal. There are records, school standing, national exposure, perceived minutes available ( who a player is competing against for his spot ), program reputation, etc. etc. but there is no such thing as a "good recruiter".
No such thing as a silver tongued devil that is able to hypnotize young recruits into a poor program with a poor record and poor reputation. Doesn't happen.... ever.
A school, ANY school, gets top recruits based on record and program, not on a coach waving a gold watch in their face while chanting " You will play for ........... ".


I would disagree there is "no such thing as a great recruiter". Ex: See 'Calipari, John' - ethics? dont know on that front and have my doubts but I know the guy can recruit - and dont say UK recruited the same under Gillespie or Tubby Smith (who I respected more)... they didnt. Only Calipari right now can cherry-pick the 3 or 4 guys he wants each year. I fear seeing UK the most on the list of schools any guy we want is interested in. You almost know they can win the title this year and - more than any other school - totally reload with nasty talent... more than UNC, Duke, KU.. anywhere

fan345678
03-25-2012, 11:40 PM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

watched that over and over...looked like a textbook "principle of verticality" example

Wheat/"/"/"
03-25-2012, 11:41 PM
...
I'm impressed you're even here, though. If the tables were turned, I would be as far away as I could possibly get from any UNC fans right now.

Like I told my friend weezie, it's only a game. And I'm a glutton for punishment...(with a new iPad that the new hasn't worn off yet). :)

I missed it on SC, will look for it.

jipops
03-25-2012, 11:45 PM
So apparently Roy didn't realize what defense Kansas was playing for much of the second half:



http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=Au4FKoT.mTGYnRoAUxyX7GjevbYF?slug=pf-forde_midwest_region_self_kansas_win_032512

Pat Forde plays this tired card after almost every game between two high profile coaches. I don't buy the out-coaching bit, rarely ever.

IBleedBlue
03-25-2012, 11:50 PM
Assuming Rivers and Mason leave Duke and HB, Henson, KM, JMM leave UNC, ACC will be a three team race next year. Duke, UNC and NCSU will be playing some back and forth battles next year. With the incoming class at NCSU, I wouldn't be surprised of state wins ACC next year.

Furniture
03-25-2012, 11:52 PM
Coach K is so immensely graceful and much more accomplished than ole Roy.
Ole Roy is a sore loser. He must be a real motivator (no). I would not want to play for that guy.....

uh_no
03-26-2012, 12:13 AM
Pat Forde plays this tired card after almost every game between two high profile coaches. I don't buy the out-coaching bit, rarely ever.

While he certainly overplays it, do you not find it astounding that roy failed to realize they switched defenses for the entire last 8 minutes of the game? that he failed to make an offensive adjustment while his team was busy scoring 3 points in 8 minutes because he failed to notice the change?

that's about as close to the definition of "outcoached" as you can get

75Crazie
03-26-2012, 12:17 AM
I'm thinking back to my thoughts at the beginning of the season. I was horribly dreading this year, seeing Carolina as head-and-shoulders above everybody else. And now, looking back, I see Duke split in two games with them, they didn't win the ACC Tournament, and they didn't even make the Final Four. The heck with the Lehigh game, this was quite a good year!

moonpie23
03-26-2012, 12:35 AM
how do you like my new avatar?

NYC Duke Fan
03-26-2012, 12:41 AM
I think this finally gives some Duke fans peace about the Kyrie Irving situation.

Get well soon Kendall. May you do well on your pre-draft workouts.

The difference was that Irving played against Arizona and I believe he was the high scorer. Marshall did not.

NYC Duke Fan
03-26-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm thinking back to my thoughts at the beginning of the season. I was horribly dreading this year, seeing Carolina as head-and-shoulders above everybody else. And now, looking back, I see Duke split in two games with them, they didn't win the ACC Tournament, and they didn't even make the Final Four. The heck with the Lehigh game, this was quite a good year!

Maybe I just don't get it. Duke a number 2 seed loses to a number 15 seed, which was a major embarassment, while Carolina makes the elite 8 and loses to a number 2 seed with arguably their key player out and you say it was ," quite a good year", for Duke basketball. I would have traded seasons with Carolina in a heartbeat.

NYC Duke Fan
03-26-2012, 12:51 AM
Roy is still a great recruiter



I would disagree there is "no such thing as a great recruiter". Ex: See 'Calipari, John' - ethics? dont know on that front and have my doubts but I know the guy can recruit - and dont say UK recruited the same under Gillespie or Tubby Smith (who I respected more)... they didnt. Only Calipari right now can cherry-pick the 3 or 4 guys he wants each year. I fear seeing UK the most on the list of schools any guy we want is interested in. You almost know they can win the title this year and - more than any other school - totally reload with nasty talent... more than UNC, Duke, KU.. anywhere

Totally agree with you. You are right on target.

duke09hms
03-26-2012, 12:53 AM
Maybe I just don't get it. Duke a number 2 seed loses to a number 15 seed, which was a major embarassment, while Carolina makes the elite 8 and loses to a number 2 seed with arguably their key player out and you say it was ," quite a good year", for Duke basketball. I would have traded seasons with Carolina in a heartbeat.

Being pleased with our year as a Duke fan and acknowledging UNC had a better year are not mutually exclusive.

Although losing to Lehigh IS historically embarrassing.

NYC Duke Fan
03-26-2012, 12:53 AM
I celebrated by eating a Tar Heel burger at a local eatery and then eating a Tar Heel mint afterwards.

I can't even imagine what a UNC fan ate after we lost to Lehigh.

NYC Duke Fan
03-26-2012, 12:55 AM
Being pleased with our year as a Duke fan and acknowledging UNC had a better year are not mutually exclusive.

Although losing to Lehigh IS historically embarrassing.

I respect your opinion but I am not pleased with our year, sorry to disagree. Losing to a 15 seed does not make for a pleasant season. I admire the job that Coach K did this year but in my mind we had a disapponting season.

ChicagoHeel
03-26-2012, 01:06 AM
While he certainly overplays it, do you not find it astounding that roy failed to realize they switched defenses for the entire last 8 minutes of the game? that he failed to make an offensive adjustment while his team was busy scoring 3 points in 8 minutes because he failed to notice the change?

that's about as close to the definition of "outcoached" as you can get

If you listened to Roy's post- game press conference, he thought KU only ran the triangle and two for a couple possessions, which admittedly doesn't reflect well on him sine KU ran it 8 minutes. This loss is shaping up to be perfect for Duke fans. The goats are Barnes and Roy, the two you love to hate the most.

However, even had he recognized it, what were Roy's options? As I understand it, what KU was really doing little more than laying off White/ Watts completely, packing the middle with a zone and then sending both guards after our perimeter shooters. Call the D what you want, it basically was a decision to play five on four. Roy could have removed White and gone with Bullock, Hairston, and Barnes to punish the D from the outside, but none of them could hit the broad side of a barn. Barnes got into the lane a few times but missed from close range. We shot poorly- that's the bottom line. Of course KU's D had something to do with that, but it has been a problem that plagued us before we saw the triangle and two.

uh_no
03-26-2012, 01:21 AM
If you listened to Roy's post- game press conference, he thought KU only ran the triangle and two for a couple possessions, which admittedly doesn't reflect well on him sine KU ran it 8 minutes. This loss is shaping up to be perfect for Duke fans. The goats are Barnes and Roy, the two you love to hate the most.

However, even had he recognized it, what were Roy's options? As I understand it, what KU was really doing little more than laying off White/ Watts completely, packing the middle with a zone and then sending both guards after our perimeter shooters. Call the D what you want, it basically was a decision to play five on four. Roy could have removed White and gone with Bullock, Hairston, and Barnes to punish the D from the outside, but none of them could hit the broad side of a barn. Barnes got into the lane a few times but missed from close range. We shot poorly- that's the bottom line. Of course KU's D had something to do with that, but it has been a problem that plagued us before we saw the triangle and two.

It's not about whether he would have had options or not....even if he DID have something in his toolbox, he couldn't have used it anyway since he failed to realize the switch.

It sucks to lose, and I don't mean to harp on you CH, we just got beaten by lehigh for goodness sakes. You guys got hit with an unfortunate injury that probably kept you from a final four, if not a championship.....maybe roy isn't good at coaching on the floor, but he makes up with it in other areas...recruiting for a big one. Maybe harrison barnes isn't the savior that he makes himself out to be, but he is what he is...and the team figured out how to have massive success with him down the stretch.

In the end it was lack of depth at the PG more than anything that cost them the game...MUCH more so than roy or harrison

Mudge
03-26-2012, 01:33 AM
I'd like to see the play again at about the 4 minute mark where Henson was driving from top of the key and was blocked, resulting in a fast break basket to take KS up 6, I think. I thought he was fouled, but they never showed the play again, so I'm not sure?

Not whinning about a missed call, if it was, but it was a key play in the game that gave KS separation and started the mental pressing by UNC.

Even if Henson was fouled, perhaps you should view that (no)-call as a makeup call for the foul called on Withey on a Barnes drive only moments earlier in the game, where the announcer said "Bill Self is livid about that call, and I don't blame him-- Withey was there, and it looked like a charge on Barnes to me."

Also, many times, Henson succeeds in looking like he is fouled, whether he is or not, because of his lack of strength, and his ungainly, Plastic-Man way of putting his body into awkward positions (from which he falls down with regularity, because he is often off-balance when he attempts shots and gets blocked).

dukelifer
03-26-2012, 07:01 AM
Maybe I just don't get it. Duke a number 2 seed loses to a number 15 seed, which was a major embarassment, while Carolina makes the elite 8 and loses to a number 2 seed with arguably their key player out and you say it was ," quite a good year", for Duke basketball. I would have traded seasons with Carolina in a heartbeat.

Both teams had comparable regular seasons that were very good by most standards. But Duke and UNC are teams that measure their post season success by championships- not where they finish in a one and done tourney. UNC and Duke failed to achieve their goals for the season. Losing in the final 8 or round of 32 are both bad. Neither team was able to beat a ranked opponent in this or the ACC tourney. Both teams will lick their wounds and come back next season.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-26-2012, 07:13 AM
I can't even imagine what a UNC fan ate after we lost to Lehigh.

Weber steak.

oldnavy
03-26-2012, 07:28 AM
If you listened to Roy's post- game press conference, he thought KU only ran the triangle and two for a couple possessions, which admittedly doesn't reflect well on him sine KU ran it 8 minutes. This loss is shaping up to be perfect for Duke fans. The goats are Barnes and Roy, the two you love to hate the most.

However, even had he recognized it, what were Roy's options? As I understand it, what KU was really doing little more than laying off White/ Watts completely, packing the middle with a zone and then sending both guards after our perimeter shooters. Call the D what you want, it basically was a decision to play five on four. Roy could have removed White and gone with Bullock, Hairston, and Barnes to punish the D from the outside, but none of them could hit the broad side of a barn. Barnes got into the lane a few times but missed from close range. We shot poorly- that's the bottom line. Of course KU's D had something to do with that, but it has been a problem that plagued us before we saw the triangle and two.

Can you really be surprised that Roy didn't recognize the defense being played against his team? Remember, this is the guy who also said he had no idea that he had left his walk-ons on the court at FSU.

I will never be convinced that Roy is even an average game manager. He is a winning coach and a very sucessful coach, but I really do think that he gets caught up in the emotion of the game and goes into brain freeze A LOT.

Anyway, UNC had a very good yet disappointing season. The injury gods were unkind and it caught up with them. I sort of hate it for Zeller and Marshall, two UNC players I can really like.

Barnes had his shot at stepping up to be the man and he didn't. Not sure what this says about his legacy or future, but bottom line is that he seems to have peaked when he wore the banana suit at Late Night with Roy... well maybe not exactly, but the point is that he really hasn't gotten much better in his two years at UNC IMO.

I wonder if there will be buzz about how Roy cannot develop wing players?

Wheat/"/"/"
03-26-2012, 08:31 AM
Even if Henson was fouled, perhaps you should view that (no)-call as a makeup call for the foul called on Withey on a Barnes drive only moments earlier in the game, where the announcer said "Bill Self is livid about that call, and I don't blame him-- Withey was there, and it looked like a charge on Barnes to me."

Also, many times, Henson succeeds in looking like he is fouled, whether he is or not, because of his lack of strength, and his ungainly, Plastic-Man way of putting his body into awkward positions (from which he falls down with regularity, because he is often off-balance when he attempts shots and gets blocked).

I finally saw the replay and thought it could have easily been called a foul. The defender was verticle, but he was definitely moving forward into Henson and initiated the contact.
It wasn't a bad call, and didn't cause UNC to lose, just one of those bang, bang sort of plays that could have gone either way.

It was a tough break for UNC at that time, down 4 with a chance to cut it to 2. Instead, KS gets a fast break basket, goes up 6, and gets the crowd into it.

I thought it was the key play that broke open the game for KS, and CBS never showed a replay.

CameronBornAndBred
03-26-2012, 08:41 AM
I'm happy the heels are finally done, and that out of both schools we are the ones left with a team playing basketball. (On to Denver, ladies!)
That being said, I was really impressed with Kendall Marshall's attitude last night, so I'm giving him props. At times he was up doing as much coaching as Roy, and giving every ounce of support he could in the only role he could fill...cheerleader. It reminded me very much of Kyrie from the bench last year, and in a way punctuated for me what was missing from our own team this year.

devildeac
03-26-2012, 08:43 AM
how do you like my new avatar?

Is that a pigeon under that towel ;) ?

moonpie23
03-26-2012, 08:44 AM
roy doesn't pay attention to the other team's defense.....he runs his offense come hell or high water and the team on the floor has ONE instruction...... RUN!

why should he be bothered about what the OTHER team does....?

CDu
03-26-2012, 08:51 AM
I finally saw the replay and thought it could have easily been called a foul. The defender was verticle, but he was definitely moving forward into Henson and initiated the contact.
It wasn't a bad call, and didn't cause UNC to lose, just one of those bang, bang sort of plays that could have gone either way.

It was a tough break for UNC at that time, down 4 with a chance to cut it to 2. Instead, KS gets a fast break basket, goes up 6, and gets the crowd into it.

I thought it was the key play that broke open the game for KS, and CBS never showed a replay.

I think you're seeing that through Carolina blue lenses. Henson jumped into Withey much more than the other way around (if Withey was going forward at all). Henson initiated the contact. That's a no call as much as any no call can be on a contact play.

slower
03-26-2012, 09:16 AM
No question UNC lost their composure and deserved to lose.

Maybe somebody can YouTube it?

Can't YOU Youtube it? Or doesn't your new Ipad do such fancy stuff?? :)

roywhite
03-26-2012, 09:23 AM
The injuries were really bad luck for the Heels, even going back to the loss of Leslie McDonald from the roster.

The other fatal flaw IMO was their lack of good 3-point shooting.
Very hard to win a series of tough games at tournament time without legitimate weapons from the perimeter.

CDu
03-26-2012, 09:33 AM
The injuries were really bad luck for the Heels, even going back to the loss of Leslie McDonald from the roster.

The other fatal flaw IMO was their lack of good 3-point shooting.
Very hard to win a series of tough games at tournament time without legitimate weapons from the perimeter.

That and a lack of competent ballhandlers outside of their PG. They ran their entire offense through the PG, and when that PG (and his backup) went down they simply had no answer for how to consistently generate offense. When Kansas finally settled down defensively (albeit 25 or so minutes into the game) they shut down UNC's offense entirely.

Kansas was the better team on the court last night. That wouldn't have been the case with a healthy Marshall. But that's life.

ClosetHurleyFan
03-26-2012, 09:52 AM
The injuries were really bad luck for the Heels, even going back to the loss of Leslie McDonald from the roster.

The other fatal flaw IMO was their lack of good 3-point shooting.
Very hard to win a series of tough games at tournament time without legitimate weapons from the perimeter.


Great point. As a Carolina fan still pondering the "what ifs", it totally hit me this morning how important McDonald, even if only as a sixth man off the bench could have been to this team. We all forget that by the time he got hurt, he was arguably the best three point shooter on the team, particularly in transition, and overall was evolving into a Danny Green type roll in terms of being instant offense off the bench. The ability to hit at least a few three's consistently would have been a huge difference. I mean, they didnt hit a single one in the second half. There were many games this year where Carolina failed to hit more than 2 or 3. Last night, one or two well placed three's in the second half could have made all the difference in the world. He will be a very important returning player for Carolina next year.

alteran
03-26-2012, 10:06 AM
But the thing is....by next year, or 2 years down the road, nobody will remember anything other than we split with UNC, neither team won the natty, and rivers' shot....10 years down the road nobody is going to say "but they won a few more games overall"

Bingo. The only thing people will remember in 10 years will be Austin's shot in the House That Dean Built.

devildeac
03-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Weber steak.

I gotta admit, Cap'n, that's pretty funny/clever.

alteran
03-26-2012, 10:34 AM
Pat Forde plays this tired card after almost every game between two high profile coaches. I don't buy the out-coaching bit, rarely ever.

Well, Pat's not alone this time-- Greg Barnes, one of the house journalists at IC (i.e., not the boards) called Roy out on this (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1171272.html) in his article. Of particular note is that Roy flat-out said he only saw a triangle-and-two for 1 or 2 plays, whereas Self said Kansas ran it for the final-- and decisive-- 8-9 minutes.

Methinks Roy is lucky he can't be sued for coaching malpractice.

CDu
03-26-2012, 10:41 AM
Well, Pat's not alone this time-- Greg Barnes, one of the house journalists at IC (i.e., not the boards) called Roy out on this (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1171272.html) in his article. Of particular note is that Roy flat-out said he only saw a triangle-and-two for 1 or 2 plays, whereas Self said Kansas ran it for the final-- and decisive-- 8-9 minutes.

Methinks Roy is lucky he can't be sued for coaching malpractice.

I think Williams is just not good at handling adversity. He's a terrific recruiter and he runs an often effective system. But when things get tough he doesn't react well to it. And I think his players sense that and play tight when he gets tight. I also don't think he's a great in-game coach. Quotes like these only serve to strengthen my belief that this is accurate.

Don't get me wrong - he's certainly proven he can recruit and run his system at an elite level. But it just seems strange that he doesn't call timeouts when his team is getting killed (KU game a few years ago) and he doesn't recognize a junk defense that is rendering his offense immobile for 8 minutes.

mkirsh
03-26-2012, 10:42 AM
I'm going to violate the rule about not comparing players of different race, but I still can't understand how Barnes is viewed as a lottery pick when Kyle Singler went in the second round?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=harrison-barnes&kyle-singler=2010-2011&p1=kyle-singler

Comparing Kyle's senior year to Barnes soph season, stats are incredibly similar - Barnes scores more per minute (23.3 to 19.4 points per 40), partly due to a higher usage rate (26.1% to 23.5%), and partly due to getting to the line more (37.4% vs 30.4% FTA/FGA). On a points per shot basis, they are almost identical (Barnes 1.24 vs Singler 1.23). Barnes is a very slightly better 3 pt shooter (35.8% compared to Kyle's senior year of 32.1%, but not other years (Fr 34%, So 38%, Jr 40%)), while Singler is better from 2 (49.7% to 46.9%) and from the line (80.6% to 72.3%). Singler is a better rebounder (7.9 per 40 vs 7.1), has more assist (1.9 per 40 vs 1.5), and fewer turnovers (2.2 per 40 vs 2.7). Barnes slightly better in steals (1.5 per 40 vs 1.1), and fewer fouls (2.4 per 40 vs 3.0), and they are almost even in blocks (Barnes 0.5 per 40 vs Singler 0.4). Also, I used Kyle's senior season here, which is probably his worst statistically due to the shooting slump; he would fare even better in this comparison if other years were used.

In the "eye test", I would argue that Barnes is probably a slightly better leaper, vs Singler slightly stronger. I would rate Singler a much better defender, both on ball and help-side. Both had difficulties scoring off the dribble.


At the end of the day, I would much rather have Singler than Barnes on my team, but could see how someone could argue for Barnes. What I can't understand, is why one is a lottery pick and other other playing in Spain?



BTW, as an aside I really enjoyed listening to Steve Kerr do game commentary this weekend - know he primarily does NBA work, but he was really well prepared and insightful. Wish we could have more of him in college hoops.

IBleedBlue
03-26-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm going to violate the rule about not comparing players of different race, but I still can't understand how Barnes is viewed as a lottery pick when Kyle Singler went in the second round?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=harrison-barnes&kyle-singler=2010-2011&p1=kyle-singler

Comparing Kyle's senior year to Barnes soph season, stats are incredibly similar - Barnes scores more per minute (23.3 to 19.4 points per 40), partly due to a higher usage rate (26.1% to 23.5%), and partly due to getting to the line more (37.4% vs 30.4% FTA/FGA). On a points per shot basis, they are almost identical (Barnes 1.24 vs Singler 1.23). Barnes is a very slightly better 3 pt shooter (35.8% compared to Kyle's senior year of 32.1%, but not other years (Fr 34%, So 38%, Jr 40%)), while Singler is better from 2 (49.7% to 46.9%) and from the line (80.6% to 72.3%). Singler is a better rebounder (7.9 per 40 vs 7.1), has more assist (1.9 per 40 vs 1.5), and fewer turnovers (2.2 per 40 vs 2.7). Barnes slightly better in steals (1.5 per 40 vs 1.1), and fewer fouls (2.4 per 40 vs 3.0), and they are almost even in blocks (Barnes 0.5 per 40 vs Singler 0.4). Also, I used Kyle's senior season here, which is probably his worst statistically due to the shooting slump; he would fare even better in this comparison if other years were used.

In the "eye test", I would argue that Barnes is probably a slightly better leaper, vs Singler slightly stronger. I would rate Singler a much better defender, both on ball and help-side. Both had difficulties scoring off the dribble.


At the end of the day, I would much rather have Singler than Barnes on my team, but could see how someone could argue for Barnes. What I can't understand, is why one is a lottery pick and other other playing in Spain?



BTW, as an aside I really enjoyed listening to Steve Kerr do game commentary this weekend - know he primarily does NBA work, but he was really well prepared and insightful. Wish we could have more of him in college hoops.

The reason Barnes is still a lottery pick is because NBA GMs think he has lot of potential to develop and a higher ceiling to be achieved. In Singler's case, they saw all they could in his 4 years at Duke and probably felt his ceiling wasn't much higher. Even the analysts said Singler's ceiling is not much higher than what you saw in this junior and senior season but he plays at that ceiling all the time.

CDu
03-26-2012, 10:49 AM
In the "eye test", I would argue that Barnes is probably a slightly better leaper, vs Singler slightly stronger. I would rate Singler a much better defender, both on ball and help-side. Both had difficulties scoring off the dribble.

At the end of the day, I would much rather have Singler than Barnes on my team, but could see how someone could argue for Barnes. What I can't understand, is why one is a lottery pick and other other playing in Spain?

It's as simple as this: Barnes has more "upside", and NBA teams tend to draft on upside. Because Barnes is a better leaper and younger, teams see potential for more versatility in his game. Singler was unquestionably tougher and seems more willing to give it his all than Barnes. But Barnes has two additional years of development to expand his game that Singler doesn't, and some team(s) will see that as reason to gamble on him earlier in the draft.

Note as well that Singler chose to go to Spain - not that he was forced to go to Spain. I have no doubt that he'd have made the Pistons roster, and probably would have played real minutes. But for whatever reason (there could be several logical reasons), he chose to play out the season in Spain.

moonpie23
03-26-2012, 10:52 AM
my lottery ticket has "upside".....till tuesday anyway....

Wander
03-26-2012, 10:54 AM
I'm going to violate the rule about not comparing players of different race, but I still can't understand how Barnes is viewed as a lottery pick when Kyle Singler went in the second round?

I've been thinking about the Singler-Barnes comparison for a while too. They're both versatile small forwards who sort of turned themselves too often into long range shooters on offense. And Barnes has a better and smoother jump shot than Singler... but Singler put so much more effort into his game than Barnes did, especially on defense and rebounding. Barnes should be better based on talent, but he just doesn't have the motor that Singler or Rivers or Zeller or Hansbrough have... maybe he'll get there sometime, I guess he's still young.

CDu
03-26-2012, 10:57 AM
I've been thinking about the Singler-Barnes comparison for a while too. They're both versatile small forwards who sort of turned themselves too often into long range shooters on offense. And Barnes has a better and smoother jump shot than Singler... but Singler put so much more effort into his game than Barnes did, especially on defense and rebounding. Barnes should be better based on talent, but he just doesn't have the motor that Singler or Rivers or Zeller or Hansbrough have... maybe he'll get there sometime, I guess he's still young.

There's no question that Singler made use of every ounce of his abilities. There's certainly question as to whether Barnes has done the same (actually, one might say that there's no question - he simply hasn't). But that's the catch with the NBA. Singler was much closer to tapping out his potential than Barnes. Singler's lack of athleticism will make it tough for him to continue to succeed on grit, determination, effort, and ability. Barnes has room to become so much, and that will be too much to pass up.

mkirsh
03-26-2012, 10:57 AM
It's as simple as this: Barnes has more "upside", and NBA teams tend to draft on upside. Because Barnes is a better leaper and younger, teams see potential for more versatility in his game. Singler was unquestionably tougher and seems more willing to give it his all than Barnes. But Barnes has two additional years of development to expand his game that Singler doesn't, and some team(s) will see that as reason to gamble on him earlier in the draft.

Note as well that Singler chose to go to Spain - not that he was forced to go to Spain. I have no doubt that he'd have made the Pistons roster, and probably would have played real minutes. But for whatever reason (there could be several logical reasons), he chose to play out the season in Spain.

Understand both points, but although Barnes improved across last season (mostly due to KM's increased role), what has he done better this year compared to the end of last season? Based on trajectory, is his ceiling really much higher than what we see now? He's not exactly raw at this point.

The worst part of this is that I know my hometown Wizards are going to draft him which will make me want to poke my eyes out. Just when I thought they couldn't get any worse...

stixof96
03-26-2012, 10:58 AM
Maybe I just don't get it. Duke a number 2 seed loses to a number 15 seed, which was a major embarassment, while Carolina makes the elite 8 and loses to a number 2 seed with arguably their key player out and you say it was ," quite a good year", for Duke basketball. I would have traded seasons with Carolina in a heartbeat.

I absolutely agree. I was very impressed with the fight Carolina displayed with Marshall on the bench, they left it all on the floor. Can't ask for more than that. I think Duke lacked that this year and I was very disappointed in that.

CDu
03-26-2012, 11:00 AM
Understand both points, but although Barnes improved across last season (mostly due to KM's increased role), what has he done better this year compared to the end of last season? Based on trajectory, is his ceiling really much higher than what we see now? He's not exactly raw at this point.

The worst part of this is that I know my hometown Wizards are going to draft him which will make me want to poke my eyes out. Just when I thought they couldn't get any worse...

Will he get better? Who knows? I certainly agree that he hasn't expanded his game. I'm just saying there's more room for expansion than there was with Singler. Given his leaping ability and already versatile shooting ability, there's unquestionably more room for Barnes to grow than there is/was for Singler. And that's what will convince some team to take him in the lottery.

I certainly have my doubts that Barnes will develop those other areas enough to reach or even approach that ceiling. But I wouldn't be drafting him in the lottery.

RoyalBlue08
03-26-2012, 12:10 PM
I'm not sure how leaping ability on a slow SF with a poor handle goes very far in making that person a better basketball player. In my opinion, I think HB is nearly as tapped out on potential as Kyle. You could even argue that Kyle has more room to improve in his jump shot (a skill that seems you should be able to work on with practice).

oldnavy
03-26-2012, 12:35 PM
I think Williams is just not good at handling adversity. He's a terrific recruiter and he runs an often effective system. But when things get tough he doesn't react well to it. And I think his players sense that and play tight when he gets tight. I also don't think he's a great in-game coach. Quotes like these only serve to strengthen my belief that this is accurate.

Don't get me wrong - he's certainly proven he can recruit and run his system at an elite level. But it just seems strange that he doesn't call timeouts when his team is getting killed (KU game a few years ago) and he doesn't recognize a junk defense that is rendering his offense immobile for 8 minutes.

Well, let's not get too carried away, Ol Roy has shown that he can recruit and run his system at two elite schools. I am not sure he would have the same results if he had to go to a school that is not a blue blood of college basketball. We will never know if he could recruit at this level if he were at Missouri or Baylor or **Fill in the non traditional power house**. BUT, he has done well with the cards he was delt and that is all you can ask of someone. He wins a ton of games with his style, but he has never shown anything that resembles an ability to manage a fluid or changing game flow.

For example, in the Ohio game, WHY would you call a play for Harrison Barnes at the end of THAT game. He had been anemic the entire game. Bullock, Zeller, Henson, or McAdoo would have been better choices, or at least call for him to get the ball in position to score, not in a position where he would have to create his shot (something he is not very good at).

It also begs the question of what the other coaches are doing over on the bench? Steve Robinson was a head coach, so he should be able to recognize a triangle & 2 defense. Surely he or whatever the other two coaches names are could have mentioned it at some point to Roy....

78Devil
03-26-2012, 01:06 PM
Like everyone else, I went to bed in a much better frame of mind last night. But I woke up this morning feeling guilty.

WHY would I root against UNC so passionately when they are playing teams who are not ACC, and who for the most part don't share the academic standards Duke and UNC hold? In the old days, I used to root FOR Duke (of course still do), and against UNC -- but only until we were out if contention. Then, I would root for any ACC team -- UNC included.

That changed somehow with Ole Roy. I don't know if its because he won 2 NCs (at least one of which he pretty much inherited) or if its something about the old hang dog demeanor. It can't just be because he is at UNC, since I felt the same way about him when we used to play him in Kansas, and I never actually hated Dean Smith.

I do think, however, that I am highly influenced by my desire for no other current coach to have accomplishments approaching Coach K. 'Cause I was pretty happy when Florida lost as well. Had Roy gotten his third NC within a decade (less!), that would have been a pretty amazing feat and would have taken some of the patina off of our HOF coach's accomplishments.

Pretty selfish and immature -- but I can't help it!

g-money
03-26-2012, 01:27 PM
There's no question that Singler made use of every ounce of his abilities. There's certainly question as to whether Barnes has done the same (actually, one might say that there's no question - he simply hasn't). But that's the catch with the NBA. Singler was much closer to tapping out his potential than Barnes. Singler's lack of athleticism will make it tough for him to continue to succeed on grit, determination, effort, and ability. Barnes has room to become so much, and that will be too much to pass up.

In the Singler-Barnes comparison, to me the score would be Singler 1, Barnes 0. Which is about as good as it gets as a Duke fan.

Regarding Barnes, the word that comes to mind in watching him play is robotic. Watching him force moves on offense, he looks like a guy who has spent a lot more time doing drills than playing the game. To some extent this could also be a consequence of playing against weak competition through high school (no offense to Iowans, but Ames does not strike me as a basketball hotbed).

I do think this problem is fixable, and I wouldn't be surprised if he overcomes it given his solid work ethic. If I were him I would forget the drills for the summer and focus solely on playing in games against good competition, preferably NBA players if he can find the run.

As for me, I was as bummed as anyone when he chose UNC, and I love to see him fail wearing Carolina blue. But I also can't help but think that there's a scared kid in there who is pretty unsure of himself right now. Tough deal.

moonpie23
03-26-2012, 01:34 PM
78....to answer your question, plain and simple....it's arrogance....

duke fans always HOPE to win stuff......unc EXPECTS to win stuff...

Kedsy
03-26-2012, 01:35 PM
Losing to a 15 seed does not make for a pleasant season.

Losing one game does not make for any kind of season. It was one game. If you look at it from beginning to end we had a pretty good season with a disappointing ending. If all you care about is the last game, why do you even bother?

pfrduke
03-26-2012, 01:39 PM
duke fans always HOPE to win stuff......unc EXPECTS to win stuff...

Reading the majority of the posts around here, one could not draw this distinction.

nocilla
03-26-2012, 01:47 PM
As much as UNC missed Marshall, I think Barnes is more to blame for the loss. If he hits a decent percentage of his shots they would have not gone to OT against Ohio and probably would have beaten Kansas. I know Marshall gets Barnes easier looks but come on. White and Watts filled in pretty good and combined for about Marshall's average. I realize that neither are nearly the playmaker that Marshall is, but you would think the 2 time pre-season All-American and team's leading scorer could manage to hit a few shots without Marshall holding him by the hand.

diablesseblu
03-26-2012, 01:55 PM
Dan Patrick's comment on Barnes was that he played "politely" this weekend. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Hearing that made me wonder if Barnes was worried about injury, and especially about his draft stock.

crimsonandblue
03-26-2012, 02:03 PM
Like everyone else, I went to bed in a much better frame of mind last night. But I woke up this morning feeling guilty.

WHY would I root against UNC so passionately when they are playing teams who are not ACC, and who for the most part don't share the academic standards Duke and UNC hold? In the old days, I used to root FOR Duke (of course still do), and against UNC -- but only until we were out if contention. Then, I would root for any ACC team -- UNC included.

That changed somehow with Ole Roy. I don't know if its because he won 2 NCs (at least one of which he pretty much inherited) or if its something about the old hang dog demeanor. It can't just be because he is at UNC, since I felt the same way about him when we used to play him in Kansas, and I never actually hated Dean Smith.

I do think, however, that I am highly influenced by my desire for no other current coach to have accomplishments approaching Coach K. 'Cause I was pretty happy when Florida lost as well. Had Roy gotten his third NC within a decade (less!), that would have been a pretty amazing feat and would have taken some of the patina off of our HOF coach's accomplishments.

Pretty selfish and immature -- but I can't help it!

What academic standards are you referring to? University-wide or the programs themselves? Something else?

theAlaskanBear
03-26-2012, 02:07 PM
Dan Patrick's comment on Barnes was that he played "politely" this weekend. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Hearing that made me wonder if Barnes was worried about injury, and especially about his draft stock.

I don't think it was about injury...I think that is just Barnes personality as a player. I think he plays too mechanically, too much thinking on the court. He looks like he takes shots when he thinks he needs to take shots, or he tries to take over a game when he is expected to...some people call it "soft" but the fire to take it to his opponent isn't there, to dominate the game and enforce his will. This attitude is much more apparent in Zeller, who is always going at you when he is on the court. Think if you put someone like Austin's motor and will into Barnes' body. That would be a special player.

CharlestonDevil
03-26-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't think it was about injury...I think that is just Barnes personality as a player. I think he plays too mechanically, too much thinking on the court. He looks like he takes shots when he thinks he needs to take shots, or he tries to take over a game when he is expected to...some people call it "soft" but the fire to take it to his opponent isn't there, to dominate the game and enforce his will. This attitude is much more apparent in Zeller, who is always going at you when he is on the court. Think if you put someone like Austin's motor and will into Barnes' body. That would be a special player.

Last year the black pigeon earned a reputation as a "clutch" player. He hit several big shots throughout the course of the season. However, I certainly agree that he doesn't have that killer instinct to enforce his will on an entire game. If he was truly an elite player (as his national reputation suggests) his superiority would be evident throughout the course of a game, and a season.

Yesterday could have been HIS MOMENT, instead, it was a prime example of the major deficiencies in his game. And while this may be wishful thinking as a Duke fan, if I were him, imagine what another subpar season could do to his NBA stock, and how much money he could lose if he was to return and play poorly or be injured. Kid needs to take his money and run, get an agent and out of CH.

gumbomoop
03-26-2012, 03:03 PM
For me, the single most important physical skill, especially for perimeter players, is handle. Barnes spent last summer working on it, with still-limited success.

The single most important mental/psychological attribute, again, for me, is relentlessness. These 2 posts....


I don't think it was about injury...I think that is just Barnes personality as a player. I think he plays too mechanically, too much thinking on the court. He looks like he takes shots when he thinks he needs to take shots, or he tries to take over a game when he is expected to...some people call it "soft" but the fire to take it to his opponent isn't there, to dominate the game and enforce his will.


Regarding Barnes, the word that comes to mind in watching him play is robotic. Watching him force moves on offense, he looks like a guy who has spent a lot more time doing drills than playing the game.

I do think this problem is fixable, and I wouldn't be surprised if he overcomes it given his solid work ethic. If I were him I would forget the drills for the summer and focus solely on playing in games against good competition, preferably NBA players if he can find the run.

.... reflect what I see as Barnes's other very basic flaw. He isn't relentless, by a long shot.

The obvious contrast is with Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, whose handle and motor are much superior.

roywhite
03-26-2012, 03:16 PM
For me, the single most important physical skill, especially for perimeter players, is handle. Barnes spent last summer working on it, with still-limited success.

The single most important mental/psychological attribute, again, for me, is relentlessness. ...Barnes's other very basic flaw. He isn't relentless, by a long shot.

The obvious contrast is with Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, whose handle and motor are much superior.

Another comparison that struck me was Barnes vs Grant Hill at a similar stage of their college career.
Both were advertised as versatile, talented small forwards and were approximately the same size.

What happened when Grant Hill's team lost it's point guard to injury for a key stretch?

Duke 77 Louisiana State 67 (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19920208)

Grant stepped into the primary ball handling role and responded with a clutch performance against a very tough opponent (Shaq in the middle) on the road.
His stat line included
40 minutes
16 points on 6-9 FG shooting
9 rebounds
6 assists
3 turnovers

And he was likable.

freedevil
03-26-2012, 04:12 PM
And he was likable.

Yes, yes Grant was. If Barnes leaves, I doubt UNC fans will focus on much other than his failure to live up to the hype.

sagegrouse
03-26-2012, 04:38 PM
For me, the single most important physical skill, especially for perimeter players, is handle. Barnes spent last summer working on it, with still-limited success.

The single most important mental/psychological attribute, again, for me, is relentlessness. These 2 posts....





.... reflect what I see as Barnes's other very basic flaw. He isn't relentless, by a long shot.

The obvious contrast is with Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, whose handle and motor are much superior.

Not to mention Kyle, Battier, Kobe, Grant Hill (mentioned above). Ya know, HB could be a bit "soft." -- sagegrouse

Devilsfan
03-26-2012, 04:44 PM
"soft?". No way. He's the "Black Falcon!".