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nmduke2001
03-18-2012, 08:06 PM
CBS just confirmed that Marshall broke his wrist against Creighton. Tough break (no pun intended). When it happened, I was surprised at how quickly he got up. I hate UNC as much as the next guy but hate to see a kid go down to injury.

sagegrouse
03-18-2012, 08:08 PM
CBS just confirmed that Marshall broke his wrist against Creighton. Tough break (no pun intended). When it happened, I was surprised at how quickly he got up. I hate UNC as much as the next guy but hate to see a kid go down to injury.

Are you sure? That was the injury that Henson had, and he was reinjured today at the end of the first half. If so, that is really devastating.

sage

nmduke2001
03-18-2012, 08:11 PM
Are you sure? That was the injury that Henson had, and he was reinjured today at the end of the first half. If so, that is really devastating.

sage

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/17890252/kendall-marshall-fractures-right-wrist-in-north-carolinas-win-sunday

DukeGirl4ever
03-18-2012, 08:11 PM
Yes, would love the details since I refused to watch the 2nd half.

How/when did it happen?
Is he for sure done for the tourney?

Ralph-Wiggum
03-18-2012, 08:11 PM
Roy announced it in the press conference - fractured wrist. On his non-dominant hand, but I still doubt he'll be able to play the rest of the season.

gumbomoop
03-18-2012, 08:12 PM
I just posted this on the MW Region thread.


Marshall sees everything, which explains why several of his assists each game come from passes when the opponent guarding the pass-recipient isn't looking or thinking. Marshall is always thinking, always looking. Is it coincidence that his vision is matched by his hand-eye coordination and pass-spin-location-and-pace? Marshall pays attention, and knows that many basketball players sometimes - actually frequently - don't. It's quite an advantage, when playing basketball.

I don't like this news for him at all. It's his right hand, non-shooting, but Kenny Smith was pessimistic about the whole thing.

Roy just described it as a fractured right wrist.

Ralph-Wiggum
03-18-2012, 08:13 PM
Yes, would love the details since I refused to watch the 2nd half.

How/when did it happen?
Is he for sure done for the tourney?

It happened around the 11 minute mark - he went up for a lay-up and was fouled hard. Didn't notice it at the time, but apparently he played using only his left hand from that point on (and missed a couple of FTs).

DukeGirl4ever
03-18-2012, 08:13 PM
That almost sounds like he needs a cast.

Are players allowed to play with a cast on their hand?

dukedoc
03-18-2012, 08:15 PM
Scaphoid fractures are typically treated with immobilization. If they aren't treated appropriately, they are notorious for leading to future arthritis and other chronic issues. It is his non-dominant hand, but my guess is he'll need to be casted.

Dukie@Wake
03-18-2012, 08:15 PM
Hate for the kid, he's a heck of a player and he is the engine. This will totally change the way UNC operates. They'll become a half-court team.

WiJoe
03-18-2012, 08:17 PM
That almost sounds like he needs a cast.

Are players allowed to play with a cast on their hand?

Guessing that if he had a soft cast he'd be allowed to play. And if it is indeed his off hand, he might be able to continue to play anyway.

sagegrouse
03-18-2012, 08:20 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/17890252/kendall-marshall-fractures-right-wrist-in-north-carolinas-win-sunday

Thanks. Lightning, apparently, does strike twice to the same body part. Of course, ESPN isn't reporting anything yet. Bad for kendall, and an undeserved blow to the Tarheels. Hope for a miracle recovery.

sage

DukeGirl4ever
03-18-2012, 08:20 PM
Guessing that if he had a soft cast he'd be allowed to play. And if it is indeed his off hand, he might be able to continue to play anyway.

I ask because I played with a hard cast on my non-dominant hand but had to wear some type of sleeve over it.

I missed the presser so I didn't know if Roy said he's done for or what they expected.

Of course all the drama happens when I turn off the TV.

WiJoe
03-18-2012, 08:22 PM
I ask because I played with a hard cast on my non-dominant hand but had to wear some type of sleeve over it.

I missed the presser so I didn't know if Roy said he's done for or what they expected.

Of course all the drama happens when I turn off the TV.


Not that you are, but I wouldn't necessarily complain about that. :cool:

ChicagoHeel
03-18-2012, 08:24 PM
That's it for us. Just devastating. We can win another game, only because of the level of the competition, but it's hard to imagine we'll go any further if he is sidelined.

I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.

I understand that playing physical against UNC is part of every scouting report, but I do wish the refs had reined it in a bit. Again, I am not saying that Marshall's injury was the result of an excessively hard foul. But I'll be curious to see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Troublemaker
03-18-2012, 08:24 PM
Really hate it for Marshall if true. He and Zeller are the likable Heels (even though they're Duke killers).

nmduke2001
03-18-2012, 08:27 PM
That's it for us. Just devastating. We can win another game, only because of the level of the competition, but it's hard to imagine we'll go any further if he is sidelined.

I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.

I understand that playing physical against UNC is part of every scouting report, but I do wish the refs had reined it in a bit. Again, I am not saying that Marshall's injury was the result of an excessively hard foul. But I'll be curious to see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It was a common foul as Marshall was going up for a lay up. Marshall lost his balance in the air and landed awkwardly. He sprang right up, which really surprised me. Nothing excessively rough or dirty.

uh_no
03-18-2012, 08:27 PM
Really hate it for Marshall if true. He and Zeller are the likable Heels (even though they're Duke killers).

Except when they score for us :P

BlueDevilBrowns
03-18-2012, 08:29 PM
I ask because I played with a hard cast on my non-dominant hand but had to wear some type of sleeve over it.

I missed the presser so I didn't know if Roy said he's done for or what they expected.

Of course all the drama happens when I turn off the TV.

I have a feeling that if he can play at all he will, at least by the Regional Finals. They probably won't need him to beat South Florida and a 1-armed Marshall is still better than anyone else running the point for them. UNC has a history of "over-hyping" injuries so it may not be as bad as is being reported right now.

Cue the tears from Ol' Roy in 3...2...1...

Dukehky
03-18-2012, 08:30 PM
I very recently had a scaphoid fracture, IF it doesn't require surgery which it often does, you have to put it in a hard cast for at least a few weeks to see how it heals up. Even if he could play, Kendall's passing is more important to his shooting and he does it so well and so fundamentally that he uses his right hand a lot. This is awful for Carolina, probably the worst injury they could incur. Hard to believe they lose McDonald, Strickland, and Marshall.

Does an injury like this, provided they don't win the tournament, affect Harrison and Henson's decision to go to the league? I feel like it really has that potential.

RoyalBlue08
03-18-2012, 08:31 PM
That sucks. If he can't play, I don't see how the can beat a talented team. They will have four lottery front court players and virtually no ball handlers. Can't think of another team like it.

Rogue
03-18-2012, 08:32 PM
I couldn't watch it after the first half..

Did Stilman White come in and run the offense for the smurfs after Marshall was hurt ??
How did he / or who ever ran the offense do ?

Dukie@Wake
03-18-2012, 08:32 PM
That's it for us. Just devastating. We can win another game, only because of the level of the competition, but it's hard to imagine we'll go any further if he is sidelined.

I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.

I understand that playing physical against UNC is part of every scouting report, but I do wish the refs had reined it in a bit. Again, I am not saying that Marshall's injury was the result of an excessively hard foul. But I'll be curious to see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

UNC may be able to survive next weekend especially is KU were to get knocked off (as they have a history of). After that Marshall may be able to play the final four weekend??? All just conjecture at this point as we will have to wait and see what the next few days hold.

nmduke2001
03-18-2012, 08:34 PM
I couldn't watch it after the first half..

Did Stillman White come in and run the offense for the smurfs after Marshall was hurt ??
How did he / or who ever ran the offense do ?

No, Marshall stayed in the game. Actually played very well after the injury.

Ralph-Wiggum
03-18-2012, 08:38 PM
UNC has a history of "over-hyping" injuries so it may not be as bad as is being reported right now.

Cue the tears from Ol' Roy in 3...2...1...

:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure you can't "over-hype" a fractured wrist.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 08:38 PM
Here is data from Wiki FWIW. I will not speculate if he will play or not. Either way their chances of a title just took a huge hit.

Clinically patients present with snuff box tenderness.

Scaphoid fractures are often diagnosed by X-rays. However not all fractures are apparent initially. Therefore people with tenderness over the scaphoid (those who exhibit pain to pressure in the anatomic snuff box ) are often casted for 7–10 days at which point a second set of X-rays is taken. If there was a hairline fracture, healing will now be apparent. Even then a fracture may not be apparent. A CT Scan can then be used to evaluate the scaphoid with greater resolution. Fractures can take between 6 and 12 weeks of casting to heal. The Scaphoid receives its blood supply primarily from lateral and distal branches of the radial artery. Blood flows from the top/distal end of the bone in a retrograde fashion down to the proximal pole; if this blood flow is disrupted by a fracture, the bone may not heal. Surgery is necessary at this point to mechanically mend the bone together.

The use of MRI, if available, is preferred over CT and can give one an immediate diagnosis.[2] Bone scintigraphy is also an effective method for diagnosis fracture which do not appear on Xray.[3]

uh_no
03-18-2012, 08:39 PM
No, Marshall stayed in the game. Actually played very well after the injury.

Adrenaline makes you not relize the severity sometimes....people will recall kyrie played in the game after his toe injury last year, before everyone realized how severe it was.

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-18-2012, 08:43 PM
Here is data from Wiki FWIW. I will not speculate if he will play or not. Either way their chances of a title just took a huge hit.

Clinically patients present with snuff box tenderness.

Scaphoid fractures are often diagnosed by X-rays. However not all fractures are apparent initially. Therefore people with tenderness over the scaphoid (those who exhibit pain to pressure in the anatomic snuff box ) are often casted for 7–10 days at which point a second set of X-rays is taken. If there was a hairline fracture, healing will now be apparent. Even then a fracture may not be apparent. A CT Scan can then be used to evaluate the scaphoid with greater resolution. Fractures can take between 6 and 12 weeks of casting to heal. The Scaphoid receives its blood supply primarily from lateral and distal branches of the radial artery. Blood flows from the top/distal end of the bone in a retrograde fashion down to the proximal pole; if this blood flow is disrupted by a fracture, the bone may not heal. Surgery is necessary at this point to mechanically mend the bone together.

The use of MRI, if available, is preferred over CT and can give one an immediate diagnosis.[2] Bone scintigraphy is also an effective method for diagnosis fracture which do not appear on Xray.[3]
Now that I've read this discussion of the type of injury, I'm wondering if it's going to entail similar healjng process that Gerald Henderson went through a few years back. He was able to play once it healed enough to wear a brace. Surgical repair took place in the off season.

OldPhiKap
03-18-2012, 08:52 PM
I am obviously hoping that Carolina goes out soon, but really hate to hear this news.

Hope it heals competely (and hope it does while you're waiting to see where you go in the draft). But mainly hoping for a full recovery.

CDu
03-18-2012, 08:54 PM
First, tough news for Marshall and for UNC. Hopefully he heals okay.

With regard to his play in the game afterward, he was terrific. However, I suspect two things play in here:
1. Adrenaline lets you keep going. I played the entire second half of a game with a broken shooting hand. I even hit a 3. I though I'd just jammed a finger. Turned out I broke my 4th metacarpal (ring finger bone in the hand). It felt a bit painful but I could deal with it. It hurt like all get out when I got home that night and I had to get it casted the next day.
2. Very likely nobody on the other team realized the severity of the injury. If they did, they'd have almost certainly overplayed his left hand (forcing him right, which would either cause him to give the ball up, dribble with his right hand, or expose the ball to the defender by dribbling with his left hand) and/or started fouling him on the bad wrist. It's the reason why NHL teams don't disclose the specifics on injury. If the other team knows where you are hurt, they'll test it for you.

For these two reasons, I'd be shocked if he's able to play effectively next weekend or even the following weekend. Even if he's able to play with a cast, good teams are going to force him to his right. And I just don't see how he can be effective going right with a cast on his broken wrist. It's just really hard to be an effective ballhandler/playmaker when the other team knows you only have one hand.

robobevan
03-18-2012, 08:56 PM
DBR headline reminds me eerily of the sentiment after boozer broke his foot. Hope it doesn't have same ending

-jk
03-18-2012, 08:57 PM
That's it for us. Just devastating. We can win another game, only because of the level of the competition, but it's hard to imagine we'll go any further if he is sidelined.

I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.

I understand that playing physical against UNC is part of every scouting report, but I do wish the refs had reined it in a bit. Again, I am not saying that Marshall's injury was the result of an excessively hard foul. But I'll be curious to see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

"If you can't beat 'em, beat 'em up" has been the mid-major game plan for years. Certainly against "soft" Duke teams - at least when the refs "let 'em play". Gets really old, really fast, too.

Hope Marshall can play with a soft cast.

-jk

bluedevilfan1998
03-18-2012, 08:57 PM
As much as I can't stand UNC, it's awful for the players to get hurt. Good luck to Marshall and I hope he has a speedy recovery.

davekay1971
03-18-2012, 08:58 PM
Scaphoid fractures are typically treated with immobilization. If they aren't treated appropriately, they are notorious for leading to future arthritis and other chronic issues. It is his non-dominant hand, but my guess is he'll need to be casted.

If I remember correctly, the scaphoid is not a particularly well vascularized bone and healing can be tricky. I think immobilization is key in a good recovery. Even in his non-shooting hand, Marshall probably won't be able to safely play with a scaphoid fracture. Obviously this is early with a lot of speculation, but I would think a scaphoid fracture would shut Marshall down for the tournament.

WiJoe
03-18-2012, 08:59 PM
"Heels Win But Are Done"

I would NEVER use that as a headline until a scoreboard shows they are done.

A lot of time for a miracle heal. Won't believe he's NOT playing until I see him in civvies.

El_Diablo
03-18-2012, 09:00 PM
The video of the incident can be found here:

http://www.sbnation.com/2012-ncaa-tournament/2012/3/18/2883149/kendall-marshall-injury-video-broken-wrist

It was not a particularly hard foul...he just landed on it wrong.

dukebsbll14
03-18-2012, 09:01 PM
Wow. Toes injuries at Duke last year, now wrist injuries at UNC this year. Good luck to Kendall.

CDu
03-18-2012, 09:02 PM
The video of the incident can be found here:

http://www.sbnation.com/2012-ncaa-tournament/2012/3/18/2883149/kendall-marshall-injury-video-broken-wrist

It was not a particularly hard foul...he just landed on it wrong.

Yeah, for those questioning Creighton's intentions, it really wasn't a dirty foul at all. Now, you can certainly question the earlier foul on Henson. But the Marshall foul was just an unfortunate accident.

dukedoc
03-18-2012, 09:08 PM
If I remember correctly, the scaphoid is not a particularly well vascularized bone and healing can be tricky. I think immobilization is key in a good recovery. Even in his non-shooting hand, Marshall probably won't be able to safely play with a scaphoid fracture. Obviously this is early with a lot of speculation, but I would think a scaphoid fracture would shut Marshall down for the tournament.

This is exactly right. If not treated appropriately, scaphoid injuries can lead to avascular necrosis, which is essentially permanent deterioration due to lack of adequate blood supply. It is possible he will play, but he/they will be playing with fire in risking long-term chronic issues for the sake of the here and now. This is the tournament, though, so I wouldn't be completely surprised if they found a way to keep him on the court.

Clint Jackson is also tweeting about surgical screws as if Kendall would be 100% after leaving the operating room after such a procedure. Not that simple. There is still significant healing that has to occur even after such a procedure and significant symptoms that linger for a while. Even if he were to play he would not likely play anywhere near his full capacity.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 09:15 PM
First, tough news for Marshall and for UNC. Hopefully he heals okay.

With regard to his play in the game afterward, he was terrific. However, I suspect two things play in here:
1. Adrenaline lets you keep going. I played the entire second half of a game with a broken shooting hand. I even hit a 3. I though I'd just jammed a finger. Turned out I broke my 4th metacarpal (ring finger bone in the hand). It felt a bit painful but I could deal with it. It hurt like all get out when I got home that night and I had to get it casted the next day.
2. Very likely nobody on the other team realized the severity of the injury. If they did, they'd have almost certainly overplayed his left hand (forcing him right, which would either cause him to give the ball up, dribble with his right hand, or expose the ball to the defender by dribbling with his left hand) and/or started fouling him on the bad wrist. It's the reason why NHL teams don't disclose the specifics on injury. If the other team knows where you are hurt, they'll test it for you.

For these two reasons, I'd be shocked if he's able to play effectively next weekend or even the following weekend. Even if he's able to play with a cast, good teams are going to force him to his right. And I just don't see how he can be effective going right with a cast on his broken wrist. It's just really hard to be an effective ballhandler/playmaker when the other team knows you only have one hand.

Good points CDu. Plus, players get hit/grabbed on the hand/wrist/arm frequently during games. Just the nature of the beast. It happened to Henson twice today, and even though he took offense, I did not think in either case the Creighton defender was intentionally trying to hurt the wrist. I would not be surprised if UNC sits him or plays him with a cast, but either way it's just going to be tough for him to be as effective as he has been injury free. Will likely affect his shot as well.

Tough loss and I hate it for Marshall. After enduring Friday night in Greensboro however, I will share zero sympathy with UNC fans. (Other than Chicago Heel, Closet Hurley and Wheat of course)

gumbomoop
03-18-2012, 09:21 PM
Tough loss and I hate it for Marshall. After enduring Friday night in Greensboro however, I will share zero sympathy with UNC fans. (Other than Chicago Heel, Closet Hurley and Wheat of course)

Also shoutingncu. Unless you and shoutingncu are mortal enemies, in which case I butt out.

devildeac
03-18-2012, 09:23 PM
"If you can't beat 'em, beat 'em up" has been the mid-major game plan for years. Certainly against "soft" Duke teams - at least when the refs "let 'em play". Gets really old, really fast, too.

Hope Marshall can play with a soft cast.

-jk

Heck, -jk, that has been some of the acc teams' plan against Duke teams for a decade or so, and then, when the fouls mount, whine like crazy about it (cough, hewitt, cough, skinner, cough, greenberg):mad:.

I hope Marshall is fully recovered/heeled (sic) in 6-8 weeks after his cast is removed and/or surgery is completed. Just in time to work out/declare for the nba draft with Zeller, Henson and the black pigeon.

dukelifer
03-18-2012, 09:25 PM
First, tough news for Marshall and for UNC. Hopefully he heals okay.

With regard to his play in the game afterward, he was terrific. However, I suspect two things play in here:
1. Adrenaline lets you keep going. I played the entire second half of a game with a broken shooting hand. I even hit a 3. I though I'd just jammed a finger. Turned out I broke my 4th metacarpal (ring finger bone in the hand). It felt a bit painful but I could deal with it. It hurt like all get out when I got home that night and I had to get it casted the next day.
2. Very likely nobody on the other team realized the severity of the injury. If they did, they'd have almost certainly overplayed his left hand (forcing him right, which would either cause him to give the ball up, dribble with his right hand, or expose the ball to the defender by dribbling with his left hand) and/or started fouling him on the bad wrist. It's the reason why NHL teams don't disclose the specifics on injury. If the other team knows where you are hurt, they'll test it for you.

For these two reasons, I'd be shocked if he's able to play effectively next weekend or even the following weekend. Even if he's able to play with a cast, good teams are going to force him to his right. And I just don't see how he can be effective going right with a cast on his broken wrist. It's just really hard to be an effective ballhandler/playmaker when the other team knows you only have one hand.


Hard to know how this will go- but the Heels will have a much tougher road ahead. They still have lots of talent and you never know. I would never say they are done as mentioned on the home page. UNC can still make a run given they are playing Ohio- not exactly the toughest sweet sixteen matchup. If they can get to the FF- you never know.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 09:25 PM
Also shoutingncu. Unless you and shoutingncu are mortal enemies, in which case I butt out.

Good catch gumb's. I thought I missed one. So yes, I definitely sympathize with shoutingncu as well. Losing any other player could be reckoned with, but Marshall drives the bus and has no backup. I think Watts will be in the gym tonight working on his PG skills when the guys get home.

g-money
03-18-2012, 09:25 PM
That's it for us. Just devastating. We can win another game, only because of the level of the competition, but it's hard to imagine we'll go any further if he is sidelined.

I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.

I understand that playing physical against UNC is part of every scouting report, but I do wish the refs had reined it in a bit. Again, I am not saying that Marshall's injury was the result of an excessively hard foul. But I'll be curious to see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That's a real bummer, ChicagoHeel. As much as I'd enjoy seeing Carolina lose fair and square, I wouldn't wish this sort of thing on my (or Duke's) worst enemy. Best of luck the rest of the way.

billy
03-18-2012, 09:33 PM
This is exactly right. If not treated appropriately, scaphoid injuries can lead to avascular necrosis, which is essentially permanent deterioration due to lack of adequate blood supply. It is possible he will play, but he/they will be playing with fire in risking long-term chronic issues for the sake of the here and now. This is the tournament, though, so I wouldn't be completely surprised if they found a way to keep him on the court.

Clint Jackson is also tweeting about surgical screws as if Kendall would be 100% after leaving the operating room after such a procedure. Not that simple. There is still significant healing that has to occur even after such a procedure and significant symptoms that linger for a while. Even if he were to play he would not likely play anywhere near his full capacity.

It really depends on the location of the fracture and whether there are any additional injuries. The part of the scaphoid furthest from the wrist joint toward the fingers has relatively good blood supply and the part closest to the fingers relatively poor. Just by the fact it's visible on x-ray (only modality that could be done quickly enough after or during the game for Roy to be able to comment) it has to be worse than a hairline or non-displaced fracture. I could see a scenario where he could have surgery Mon or Tues and hope for the best; I too doubt he'd play next weekend but could the following with a splint. I don't see a scenario where he'd play without surgery; the potential of three weeks before any surgery would be performed could severely jeopardize his likelihood of healing.

SoCalDukeFan
03-18-2012, 09:34 PM
First of all Marshall may be able to play with some kind of cast.

Even without him, you have to play the games.


SoCal

WiJoe
03-18-2012, 09:35 PM
Lovable ol' huck.

"Kendall has a fractured wrist and that's all I can tell you," North Carolina coach Roy Williams said. " We don't know. He's got a fracture of the scaphoid bone of the right wrist. And you can ask any question you want, but I just told you all we know. We do not know anything else. So be intelligent and don't ask. We'll speak to the hand specialist tonight with Kendall and his family and we'll see what happens after that."

dbag

DUKIE V(A)
03-18-2012, 09:38 PM
Hard to know how this will go- but the Heels will have a much tougher road ahead. They still have lots of talent and you never know. I would never say they are done as mentioned on the home page. UNC can still make a run given they are playing Ohio- not exactly the toughest sweet sixteen matchup. If they can get to the FF- you never know.


Obviously, if Marshall is out, it is a huge loss for UNC. That said, they would have a fairly good shot at beating Ohio...How about a fourth match-up with NC STATE? My guess is that the NC State fanbase and team would relish the opportunity.

dukelifer
03-18-2012, 09:42 PM
Obviously, if Marshall is out, it is a huge loss for UNC. That said, they would have a fairly good shot at beating Ohio...How about a fourth match-up with NC STATE? My guess is that the NC State fanbase and team would relish the opportunity.

State would love it for sure. Kansas is struggling at the moment.

CoachJ10
03-18-2012, 09:51 PM
"If you can't beat 'em, beat 'em up" has been the mid-major game plan for years. Certainly against "soft" Duke teams - at least when the refs "let 'em play". Gets really old, really fast, too.

Hope Marshall can play with a soft cast.

-jk

The Big Ten-ification of college hoops is very frustrating. The grabbing, holding and moving screens are getting more and more commonplace. It does get old very fast.

grossbus
03-18-2012, 09:52 PM
Did Henson reinjure wrist, too? Severity?

dukedoc
03-18-2012, 09:52 PM
It really depends on the location of the fracture and whether there are any additional injuries. The part of the scaphoid furthest from the wrist joint toward the fingers has relatively good blood supply and the part closest to the fingers relatively poor. Just by the fact it's visible on x-ray (only modality that could be done quickly enough after or during the game for Roy to be able to comment) it has to be worse than a hairline or non-displaced fracture. I could see a scenario where he could have surgery Mon or Tues and hope for the best; I too doubt he'd play next weekend but could the following with a splint. I don't see a scenario where he'd play without surgery; the potential of three weeks before any surgery would be performed could severely jeopardize his likelihood of healing.

All good points. Curious to see how this plays out. Certainly a chance he'll be back on the court before the tourney ends, provided UNC continues to win without him. However, even if he's reduced and fixed in the OR, it's hard to imagine he'll be anything like his true self without weeks of requisite rest and rehabilitation. Sad for the kid, he's a good person and player.

Addendum: Ah! Just saw that you're in Orthopedics on your profile. I will defer to your expertise and commentary. I'm an internist and pediatrician. I deal with joints/scaphoids, but in a far less sophisticated manner than you.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-18-2012, 10:03 PM
What can you say when your team is so unlucky with injuries?
It really sucks, but sometimes things just happen and you have to deal with it and move on.

Assuming KM is out...I would actually start White and back him up with Watts.

The kid has impressed me with his toughness, heady play and quickness in his limited minutes. He can shoot it and has some court vision. The team plays with confidence when he's on the floor and seems to trust him. I think he's gonna surprise people with some extended minutes.

He's gonna be outmatched defensively, but I think he can run the offense.

Got to give credit to Roy for having White ready for this possibility. That's good coaching. For a late recruiting find, I think White was a perfect fit for the UNC system.

I've been preaching good outside shooting was needed to be elite, now it has to be great or at least very good. We saw today how good the team can be if they are making some outside shots. If PJ can step it up, Reggie and Barnes at least don't shoot bad, I still think this team can make the final four.

It's going to be hard, really hard, to win the title now, but I hope the team is not listening to the press and some fans. They can win without KM, it will just take a greater effort.

DukeGirl4ever
03-18-2012, 10:05 PM
What can you say when your team is so unlucky with injuries?
It really sucks, but sometimes things just happen and you have to deal with it and move on.

Assuming KM is out...I would actually start White and back him up with Watts.

The kid has impressed me with his toughness, heady play and quickness in his limited minutes. He can shoot it and has some court vision. The team plays with confidence when he's on the floor and seems to trust him. I think he's gonna surprise people with some extended minutes.

He's gonna be outmatched defensively, but I think he can run the offense.

Got to give credit to Roy for having White ready for this possibility. That's good coaching. For a late recruiting find, I think White was a perfect fit for the UNC system.

I've been preaching good outside shooting was needed to be elite, now it has to be great or at least very good. We saw today how good the team can be if they are making some outside shots. If PJ can step it up, Reggie and Barnes at least don't shoot bad, I still think this team can make the final four.

It's going to be hard really hard to win the title now, but I hope the team is not listening to the press and some fans. They can win without KM, it will just take a greater effort.


Thanks for bringing us back on topic, Wheat!

I'm not sure if I agree with you on starting White over Watts, but you make excellent points. I just think White is better served in the back-up role for you guys. I'm not sure he's gonna take you to the promised land.

dukelifer
03-18-2012, 10:08 PM
What can you say when your team is so unlucky with injuries?
It really sucks, but sometimes things just happen and you have to deal with it and move on.

Assuming KM is out...I would actually start White and back him up with Watts.

The kid has impressed me with his toughness, heady play and quickness in his limited minutes. He can shoot it and has some court vision. The team plays with confidence when he's on the floor and seems to trust him. I think he's gonna surprise people with some extended minutes.

He's gonna be outmatched defensively, but I think he can run the offense.

Got to give credit to Roy for having White ready for this possibility. That's good coaching. For a late recruiting find, I think White was a perfect fit for the UNC system.

I've been preaching good outside shooting was needed to be elite, now it has to be great or at least very good. We saw today how good the team can be if they are making some outside shots. If PJ can step it up, Reggie and Barnes at least don't shoot bad, I still think this team can make the final four.

It's going to be hard, really hard, to win the title now, but I hope the team is not listening to the press and some fans. They can win without KM, it will just take a greater effort.

I agree- They have what is shaping up as an usually easy path next weekend- It gets tougher after that- but there is a lot basketball left to play. The most challenging team for them to play is NC State - who knows them well already.

moonpie23
03-18-2012, 10:12 PM
i hate it for marshall, but no sympathy for the tarholes......and you can't count them out until the scoreboard is a fourple ought and they have less points ......


they are still very good.......

Wheat/"/"/"
03-18-2012, 10:15 PM
The Big Ten-ification of college hoops is very frustrating. The grabbing, holding and moving screens are getting more and more commonplace. It does get old very fast.

I totally agree, and been saying it for years. "Letting them play" diminishes the advantage the better athletes have. Let them show their skils.

Call the ;/(& fouls. Every time, against every player.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 10:21 PM
I totally agree, and been saying it for years. "Letting them play" diminishes the advantage the better athletes have. Let them show their skils.

Call the ;/(& fouls. Every time, against every player.

I think college hoops has gotten too physical as well (CJ Leslie got killed on a breakaway dunk attempt today), but after watching the Marshall play, it was just a guy trying to block a shot at the rim. It was just an unfortunate thing that Marshall landed with his arm trapped under his body. Certainly not flagrant or over the top physical. Some of the fouls in that game were, but certainly not that one.

UNC and Duke both are just plain snake bit the last couple of years with injuries wrecking a season.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:23 PM
I totally agree, and been saying it for years. "Letting them play" diminishes the advantage the better athletes have. Let them show their skils.

Call the ;/(& fouls. Every time, against every player.

Agreed. Kills the games. This is why we see so many 50 point scores in men's college ball.

And it kills teams like Duke, who can't get open when they're being held off screens or bodied on the perimeter.

WiJoe
03-18-2012, 10:25 PM
I think college hoops has gotten too physical as well (CJ Leslie got killed on a breakaway dunk attempt today), but after watching the Marshall play, it was just a guy trying to block a shot at the rim. It was just an unfortunate thing that Marshall landed with his arm trapped under his body. Certainly not flagrant or over the top physical. Some of the fouls in that game were, but certainly not that one.

UNC and Duke both are just plain snake bit the last couple of years with injuries wrecking a season.

I strongly believe this is a big ten thing. Watching those games is like watching football. And that physical play has been picked up by players at the DII and DIII levels. It's disgusting and extremely disappointing.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-18-2012, 10:28 PM
I agree- They have what is shaping up as an usually easy path next weekend- It gets tougher after that- but there is a lot basketball left to play. The most challenging team for them to play is NC State - who knows them well already.

If State and UNC get another matchup, State will be smelling blood and be a hard team to beat , for sure.

grossbus
03-18-2012, 10:37 PM
I totally agree, and been saying it for years. "Letting them play" diminishes the advantage the better athletes have. Let them show their skils.

Call the ;/(& fouls. Every time, against every player.

Careful Wheat/"/"/", you might not like that if it actually happened. :)

Duke4life92
03-18-2012, 10:39 PM
It was a common foul as Marshall was going up for a lay up. Marshall lost his balance in the air and landed awkwardly. He sprang right up, which really surprised me. Nothing excessively rough or dirty.
Lol not according to most of the irrational posters over at IC,they'd swear it was all premeditated.Many called them goons and even thanked coach K,saying the check musta been in the mail.Craaaaazzzy for sure,some or should i say most of the posters are over there.I swear i won't venture back over there again but just had to see there fans opinions on the matter.Hate it for marshal but some of there fans are ridiculous.

#1Duke
03-18-2012, 10:43 PM
It wasn't a bad foul, Marshall just fell awkwardly and in a bad way.

While this is certainly a big blow to the Heels, I wouldn't count them out just yet.

White has proven to be capable of doing a "fairly" good job and Watts isn't bad either. Granted, neither one is comparable to Marshall but they can get the job done.
Every one else will have to step up, especially Barnes.

I know some ( most?) will not agree with me but if Henson was not able to return to play, that would have had a bigger impact on the Heels.

If White and Watts can keep the turnovers very low and the others step up, I think the Heels could still make it to the Final Four... maybe even to the finals.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:45 PM
It wasn't a bad foul, Marshall just fell awkwardly and in a bad way.

While this is certainly a big blow to the Heels, I wouldn't count them out just yet.

White has proven to be capable of doing a "fairly" good job and Watts isn't bad either. Granted, neither one is comparable to Marshall but they can get the job done.
Every one else will have to step up, especially Barnes.

I know some ( most?) will not agree with me but if Henson was not able to return to play, that would have had a bigger impact on the Heels.

If White and Watts can keep the turnovers very low and the others step up, I think the Heels could still make it to the Final Four... maybe even to the finals.

Completely disagree.

Losing Henson would be big, but losing Marshall is debilitating. Without Marshall, you will see a much less efficient UNC team on offense... combine that with their lack of defense and it doesn't look good.

Marshall was UNC's MVP, with Zeller being a close 2nd.

diveonthefloor
03-18-2012, 10:49 PM
Wonder if they will go with advice from UNC orthopedics, or get second opinion at Duke?

Oh, the irony!

I seem to remember a Duke rival needed medical care at Duke not so long ago but can't recall the details. Anyone remember?

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-18-2012, 10:50 PM
I didn't get to see the game. I watched the double forearm against Zeller. Heard there was some nasty foul against Henson. And I gotta say, I'm the last guy to defend the heels, but that foul against Marshall didn't look quite so innocent to me. The guy put a forearm in marshall's side while he was in the air and gave him a decent shove at a point where Marshall could not control his body or his fall. He didn't really make a play on the ball. What gives with creighton? Doesn't look totally above board to me.

DukieInKansas
03-18-2012, 10:50 PM
I want to see unc out of the tournament but hate that an injury might be the reason. They still have to play a game so we will see what happens next round. I hope Marshall gets great medical care and heals completely.

diveonthefloor
03-18-2012, 10:50 PM
Completely disagree.

Losing Henson would be big, but losing Marshall is debilitating. Without Marshall, you will see a much less efficient UNC team on offense... combine that with their lack of defense and it doesn't look good.

Marshall was UNC's MVP, with Zeller being a close 2nd.

Could envision Barnes running the offense.

alteran
03-18-2012, 10:51 PM
That's it for us. Just devastating. We can win another game, only because of the level of the competition, but it's hard to imagine we'll go any further if he is sidelined.

I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.

I understand that playing physical against UNC is part of every scouting report, but I do wish the refs had reined it in a bit. Again, I am not saying that Marshall's injury was the result of an excessively hard foul. But I'll be curious to see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Wow. Just wow. No excuse for a no call there.

uh_no
03-18-2012, 10:52 PM
Could envision Barnes running the offense.

That couldn't go wrong....


Now Barnes gets to decide when Barnes scores....If Barnes wants 60 shots a game, Barnes can now get 60 shots a game...Barnes Barnes Barnes.

coldriver10
03-18-2012, 10:52 PM
Completely disagree.

Losing Henson would be big, but losing Marshall is debilitating. Without Marshall, you will see a much less efficient UNC team on offense... combine that with their lack of defense and it doesn't look good.

Marshall was UNC's MVP, with Zeller being a close 2nd.
Well, considering they play Ohio next followed by what is looking like Purdue, their chances of making the Final Four look pretty good even without Marshall. Obviously anyone can beat anyone in March, as we know all too well, but I wouldn't count UNC out just yet.

davekay1971
03-18-2012, 10:53 PM
Could envision Barnes running the offense.

The Black Falcon doesn't run the offense. The Black Falcon flies the offense. The Black Falcon swoops in from above with the offense.

No, The Black Falcon doesn't run...

PackMan97
03-18-2012, 10:53 PM
Wow. Just wow. No excuse for a no call there.

True, which is likely why the Creighton player was called for a Flagrant I.

I also believe another Creighton player got a T for yapping at one of the Tarheels.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:54 PM
That couldn't go wrong....


Now Barnes gets to decide when Barnes scores....If Barnes wants 60 shots a game, Barnes can now get 60 shots a game...Barnes Barnes Barnes.

Yea... plus he gets to decide when he dribbles the ball off his foot.

I'd love to see what a horrible failure that would be...

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:55 PM
Well, considering they play Ohio next followed by what is looking like Purdue, their chances of making the Final Four look pretty good even without Marshall. Obviously anyone can beat anyone in March, as we know all too well, but I wouldn't count UNC out just yet.

Kansas is making a run... so it's still looking promising for an early Heel exit. :D

PackMan97
03-18-2012, 10:55 PM
Well, considering they play Ohio next followed by what is looking like Purdue, their chances of making the Final Four look pretty good even without Marshall. Obviously anyone can beat anyone in March, as we know all too well, but I wouldn't count UNC out just yet.

I think NC State might have something to say about that. Carolina needed the help of some questionable officiating to get by State for the third time this season. Without Marshall, I REALLY like States chances. You know they say it's hard to beat the same team 4 times in a season :)

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:56 PM
I think NC State might have something to say about that. Carolina needed the help of some questionable officiating to get by State for the third time this season. Without Marshall, I REALLY like States chances. You know they say it's hard to beat the same team 4 times in a season :)

Wouldn't that be some poetic justice?

Plus, if State beat UNC in the NCAAs... that fan base would NEVER shut up about it. Which would be awesome. :D

#1Duke
03-18-2012, 10:58 PM
Completely disagree.

Losing Henson would be big, but losing Marshall is debilitating. Without Marshall, you will see a much less efficient UNC team on offense... combine that with their lack of defense and it doesn't look good.

Marshall was UNC's MVP, with Zeller being a close 2nd.

Henson is irreplaceable as a shot blocker/changer and rebounder. He is tremendous on defense. Look at what he did today.... and, there defense looked pretty good today against a team that usually scores big.
Marshall while an assist machine is not a strong defensive player and until recently, not much of a scorer.
I am not suggesting that Marshall will not be missed, he certainly will be.
I'm saying that "IF" White/Watts can keep the turn overs very low and "IF" Barnes and McAdoo ( he has REALLY come on ) and the rest step it up, they can still make their run.
Turnovers will be the key from here on out for the Heels.
I look for Barnes to handle the ball more in Marshall's absence. I have noticed in the minutes that White has played, that seems to have been the case.

alteran
03-18-2012, 10:59 PM
True, which is likely why the Creighton player was called for a Flagrant I.

I also believe another Creighton player got a T for yapping at one of the Tarheels.

Oh, I was just watching the youtube clip. Good to know.

Looks like the call must have been a bit late, but better late than never.

moonpie23
03-18-2012, 10:59 PM
it could be great theater if state and unc play again.........

coldriver10
03-18-2012, 10:59 PM
I think NC State might have something to say about that. Carolina needed the help of some questionable officiating to get by State for the third time this season. Without Marshall, I REALLY like States chances. You know they say it's hard to beat the same team 4 times in a season :)
Ah, haha, I forgot Purdue would have a game against State first. That was dumb of me.

You're absolutely right. But while I'd love to see State get redemption on UNC, I'm just not confident that would happen. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 11:00 PM
Henson is irreplaceable as a shot blocker/changer and rebounder. He is tremendous on defense. Look at what he did today.... and, there defense looked pretty good today against a team that usually scores big.
Marshall while an assist machine is not a strong defensive player and until recently, not much of a scorer.
I am not suggesting that Marshall will not be missed, he certainly will be.
I'm saying that "IF" White/Watts can keep the turn overs very low and "IF" Barnes and McAdoo ( he has REALLY come on ) and the rest step it up, they can still make their run.
Turnovers will be the key from here on out for the Heels.
I look for Barnes to handle the ball more in Marshall's absence. I have noticed in the minutes that White has played, that seems to have been the case.

Just think back to how vulnerable UNC was when Marshall couldn't score.... then when he started hitting shots, UNC looked like world beaters. When he wasn't, he was able to run the break and get everyone involved.

Without Henson, UNC's defense suffers, but their offense doesn't. They NEED their offense more than their defense.

#1Duke
03-18-2012, 11:03 PM
Just think back to how vulnerable UNC was when Marshall couldn't score.... then when he started hitting shots, UNC looked like world beaters. When he wasn't, he was able to run the break and get everyone involved.

Without Henson, UNC's defense suffers, but their offense doesn't. They NEED their offense more than their defense.

I'm a " defense wins games " kind of guy.:)

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 11:04 PM
I'm a " defense wins games " kind of guy.:)

Oh I agree.

But UNC is a "defense?" kind of team.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 11:04 PM
Wouldn't that be some poetic justice?

Plus, if State beat UNC in the NCAAs... that fan base would NEVER shut up about it. Which would be awesome. :D

IC would melt down and blow up every server they run the site on. That would be a great way to counter the Lehigh loss. "Pack takes down UNC, Advances to Final 4"...

That would be an awesome deal... (I still hope Kansas pulls this game out though, just in case)

uh_no
03-18-2012, 11:04 PM
I'm a " defense wins games " kind of guy.:)

And when you're UNC, sometimes your defense wins games for the opposition by tipping the ball into the wrong basket :P

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 11:05 PM
IC would melt down and blow up every server they run the site on. That would be a great way to counter the Lehigh loss. "Pack takes down UNC, Advances to Final 4"...

That would be an awesome deal... (I still hope Kansas pulls this game out though, just in case)

As an NCSU alum... it'd be double-sweet.

IBleedBlue
03-18-2012, 11:06 PM
Everyone here is thinking it's shaping up to be an easy weekend for UNC. But to me, it looks like it's shaping up to be an extremely easy weekend for NC State and Mark Gottfried.
They made it to S16 and with the way they are playing, i think they have the best chance to take KU down. Then without KM, NC State can throttle UNC's offense. That is assuming, KM doesn't play.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-18-2012, 11:13 PM
Oh I agree.

But UNC is a "defense?" kind of team.

UNC is a better defensive team than you guys want to give them credit for.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 11:16 PM
Henson is irreplaceable as a shot blocker/changer and rebounder. He is tremendous on defense. Look at what he did today.... and, there defense looked pretty good today against a team that usually scores big.
Marshall while an assist machine is not a strong defensive player and until recently, not much of a scorer.
I am not suggesting that Marshall will not be missed, he certainly will be.
I'm saying that "IF" White/Watts can keep the turn overs very low and "IF" Barnes and McAdoo ( he has REALLY come on ) and the rest step it up, they can still make their run.
Turnovers will be the key from here on out for the Heels.
I look for Barnes to handle the ball more in Marshall's absence. I have noticed in the minutes that White has played, that seems to have been the case.

Have to strongly agree with Ferry here. Marshall is by far the most irreplaceable player on that team. Not even close. There is a reason he made 1st Team All America and none of the others did. UNC can steal a game against Ohio, but w/o Marshall they are going to struggle mightily on offense. Plus he is their only true guard left other than White. What happens if teams press the heck out of them?

I hope he plays, but if not, their title chances go way down. If they make it to the Elite 8, they start playing Top 15 and higher quality teams. They are fortunate their bracket has fallen apart as it is. Ohio is their last cupcake. Even if they draw State in the Elite 8, they will face a team with real talent playing their best ball of the year. Otherwise they face Kansas.

msdukie
03-18-2012, 11:19 PM
Regarding the title of the front page and UNC being done, can we take this down please? Anyone ever heard of the weaxfgods?

gumbomoop
03-18-2012, 11:22 PM
UNC is a better defensive team than you guys want to give them credit for.

I agree with this, but would insist that it's only true when UNC commits to play strong D. Zeller, especially, is much underappreciated; he's a fine D-player. Barnes can play good D - he seemed to enjoy the challenge against Singler - but I haven't seen him play consistently good D, to put it charitably.

On the PG issue, I'm guessing - assuming no Marshall - that Watts gets a shot at it, White plays a bit more than previously, and Hairston gets some of those minutes, too.

Fwiw, Kenny Smith just said he expects Marshall to suit up and play spot minutes.....

davekay1971
03-18-2012, 11:27 PM
UNC is a better defensive team than you guys want to give them credit for.

Agreed. UNC, by most measures, including KenPom, was a heck of a lot better defensively than we were this year. Their interior defense is good enough to make up for pretty weak perimeter defense. Basically, with Henson in the middle, if you can make your 3s you can beat UNC. If you can't, you won't.

Losing Marshall doesn't hurt UNC's defense, and it doesn't help. Marshall may not have been a stellar on-point defender...Stillman White isn't either. But UNC's offense will not be the same, at all, without Marshall.

Think UNC when Lawson went down.

This is a huge coaching challenge for Roy. Does he play White and hope he's another Hale (In-Hale Ex-Hale) without the mullet? Try to turn one of his other perimeter guys into a serviceable 1? Let Barnes chuck up 50 3s a game and tell Henson and Zeller to rebound everything? Use Kenny Smith's remaining eligibility? Suffice to say, ever since Marshall took over the point Roy's been able to roll out the ball and let Marshall run a high octane offense utilizing a posse of future lottery picks. That's when Roy's offense looks best, when he's got a rockstar point guard. Now he doesn't have that. I'll be very interested to see what he tries tough situation.

gumbomoop
03-18-2012, 11:36 PM
Just posted Kenny Smith's opinion that Marshall will suit up and play a little.

Because he has a real future as a pro, I assume UNC will take no chances with that future.

However, if it is determined by medical experts that, with some sort of protective cast, he could play some, I think Marshall is one of a small handful of guys who could figure out how to do some of what he usually does. Marshall sees things most players haven't a clue about. He knows, intuitively, how to get the ball places where most players don't know a place exists. He takes advantage of every opponent whose head is turned, and he knows how to spin a pass at the perfect angle and pace to get the ball in the optimal position to score.

Some commentary among the talking TV heads have opined that, "no way he could be effective." If - big, big if - Marshall can play at all, there's at least a chance he could get some things done. Not the highest chance, but a higher chance than with any other player I can think of. Marshall knows how to do stuff.

#1Duke
03-18-2012, 11:43 PM
UNC has plenty of offensive threats and I did say " The rest of the team will have to step up in Marshall's absence". They'll HAVE to step up on both ends of the court.
Zeller, Henson, Barnes, McAdoo, Bullock etc. are all capable scorers. Barnes and McAdoo can create and go after their own shots.
They will miss Marshall's assists to be sure. Defense capabilities will probably be a wash.
Again, if White/Watts keep turnovers very low and Barnes/McAdoo/Bullock step up, I think the Heels still have a decent chance.
If nothing else, we'll really get to see what they're made of.... and, I agree that their defense is better than some give them credit for.
Look for Barnes to handle the ball more as has been the case when White has been in.

dukelifer
03-18-2012, 11:44 PM
Just posted Kenny Smith's opinion that Marshall will suit up and play a little.

Because he has a real future as a pro, I assume UNC will take no chances with that future.

However, if it is determined by medical experts that, with some sort of protective cast, he could play some, I think Marshall is one of a small handful of guys who could figure out how to do some of what he usually does. Marshall sees things most players haven't a clue about. He knows, intuitively, how to get the ball places where most players don't know a place exists. He takes advantage of every opponent whose head is turned, and he knows how to spin a pass at the perfect angle and pace to get the ball in the optimal position to score.

Some commentary among the talking TV heads have opined that, "no way he could be effective." If - big, big if - Marshall can play at all, there's at least a chance he could get some things done. Not the highest chance, but a higher chance than with any other player I can think of. Marshall knows how to do stuff.

I think he plays- 4 games is a lot but he will go in during the FF should they get there. It could be very inspiring. I am not counting UNC out until they are really out. If Roy gets it done with all these injuries- they are going to have to rename the Dean Dome.

Furniture
03-18-2012, 11:55 PM
I takemy hat off to all of you. You are all so vey nice. How many UNC fans were so polite about Kelly getting injured?

Greg_Newton
03-19-2012, 12:09 AM
@GaryParrishCBS Source close to UNC. Kendall Marshall will have surgery Monday. Hopeful he'll play in S16. But considered "unlikely."

Supposedly Kendall's dad also posted on Facebook that he will get surgery tomorrow and "could" play Friday.

This seems insane.

I have to assume the aforementioned "surgery" just refers to putting a screw in a non-displaced fracture, or something. Still, seems pretty reckless.

DesertDevil
03-19-2012, 12:33 AM
@GaryParrishCBS Source close to UNC. Kendall Marshall will have surgery Monday. Hopeful he'll play in S16. But considered "unlikely."

Supposedly Kendall's dad also posted on Facebook that he will get surgery tomorrow and "could" play Friday.

This seems insane.

I have to assume the aforementioned "surgery" just refers to putting a screw in a non-displaced fracture, or something. Still, seems pretty reckless.

Agree that it seems pretty reckless, but in the end I guess it's Kendall's (and his family's) decision. I would hate to see him risk any long term effects.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 12:50 AM
I'm sure he's getting the best medical care available and that everything has been explained to Kendall and his family.
I am sure it will be Kendall's decision whether to play or not.
I would be surprised if he plays at all Friday considering who UNC will be playing... after that, who knows at this point.
I give the guy credit though. He got up as if nothing happened and continued to play.
I think he's the type that will play if at all possible but can't help thinking/agreeing that it IS reckless also.

Greg_Newton
03-19-2012, 12:56 AM
@GaryParrishCBS Source close to UNC. Kendall Marshall will have surgery Monday. Hopeful he'll play in S16. But considered "unlikely."

Supposedly Kendall's dad also posted on Facebook that he will get surgery tomorrow and "could" play Friday.

This seems insane.

I have to assume the aforementioned "surgery" just refers to putting a screw in a non-displaced fracture, or something. Still, seems pretty reckless.

The more I hear about this from smart people, the more absurd this possibility seems.

Any medical types on here who can clarify? The impression I get that any full-contact sports in the first month after surgery would mean a huge health sacrifice on Marshall's part, even if it was just "putting a screw in". Something not really adding up - I'm wondering if it's just Kendall's dad wanting him to play so bad that he made a clueless statement. He's not exactly the most level-headed type.

dahntaysdawg
03-19-2012, 01:03 AM
The more I hear about this from smart people, the more absurd this possibility seems.

Any medical types on here who can clarify? The impression I get that any full-contact sports in the first month after surgery would mean a huge health sacrifice on Marshall's part, even if it was just "putting a screw in". Something not really adding up - I'm wondering if it's just Kendall's dad wanting him to play so bad that he made a clueless statement. He's not exactly the most level-headed type.

From links that have been provided on other boards I gather the standard recovery time for the option they've selected is almost 8 weeks. I also read that it would depend mostly on his ability to handle the pain. He may try and play but I don't know if this is going to be in his best interest. And I subscribe to your theory on his father, that's probably exactly what's going on.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 01:06 AM
From what I have read about this type of injury, much seems to depend on EXACTLY what kind of damage the individual received.... full fracture, partial fracture... ligament damage.... was the bone displaced etc.
A screw for CERTAIN damage seems the appropriate course of action and in some cases is the permanent fix.
I don't know if anyone outside of his doctors and immediate family know exactly the damage he sustained.
"MAYBE" a very small incision and screw will fix him up but right now I think anyone would be guessing.

From what I have read the cast route takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months to heal.
I'm guessing that the biggest concern at this time would be preventing any nerve damage which is a concern in this type injury..... or so I have read.

Johnny Chill
03-19-2012, 01:09 AM
I wouldnt be surprised if Marshall plays in the Elite 8. UNC doesnt need him against Ohio. If NC State somehow beats Kansas, UNC wouldnt need Marshall until the final 4.

Greg_Newton
03-19-2012, 01:39 AM
From links that have been provided on other boards I gather the standard recovery time for the option they've selected is almost 8 weeks. I also read that it would depend mostly on his ability to handle the pain. He may try and play but I don't know if this is going to be in his best interest. And I subscribe to your theory on his father, that's probably exactly what's going on.

I'm not sure about the bolded, though - I think there would be significant long-term risks to his health. Arthritis, and a couple other things. Also the fact that he could get hacked during a game (very possible/probably) and have the already fractured bone become displaced, even with a screw in it.

I imagine there will be significant clarification tomorrow, in any case.

UrinalCake
03-19-2012, 02:13 AM
I don't know how it happened, and I doubt it was intentional, but Creighton was fouling HARD that game. See the video below. Watch the double fore-arm to Zeller's neck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQ0m-nSoA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Wow, that was just blatant. Reminded me of this foul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZZuG_ygtUg) by FSU on Singler a couple years ago. I really wish the refs could use video replay and eject players for stuff like this.

-bdbd
03-19-2012, 02:28 AM
"Heels Win But Are Done"

I would NEVER use that as a headline until a scoreboard shows they are done.

A lot of time for a miracle heal. Won't believe he's NOT playing until I see him in civvies.

?? "WON AND DONE???"

I agree with those who've said that this is the most irreplaceable player on the NC squad. It hurts both the O and the D, but affects EVERY POSSESSION on the offfense. They will have to slow down and feed the interior an awful lot without him. They caught a big break with their seeding and how that region has played out though. So this doesn't kill them, but I think they'd have preferred ANY other player than KM to go down. Sad to see for such a talented kid.

Actually, the two big State fans I've spoken with tonight actually preferred NOT to play NC a fourth time - I think it's the fear of the impact/trauma of losing to them yet again and what it'd mean to the fanbase/school. Personally, I would just love that drama. I've certainly been rooting for State this weekend. They've suffered plenty long over in Raleigh. I dunnno, from here I think it could be very cathartic... :rolleyes:


Johnny Chill :
I wouldn't be surprised if Marshall plays in the Elite 8. UNC doesnt need him against Ohio. If NC State somehow beats Kansas, UNC wouldnt need Marshall until the final 4.

I really think they'd be favored against Ohio, even without Marshall (or a much-reduced role for him). But maybe they're a slight underdog to Purdue or a hot State squad. However, I just don't see them getting past a squad like Kansas in the FF without him (and just forget about speedy KY). Next weekend, in any event, this will impact their style of play, as they undoubtably become more halfcourt oriented. But a lot of post feeds to Zeller and Henson can still get it done against a smaller team like Ohio. I think Huck has to prepare his team as if KM won't play at all. Gravy if he does play some.

It'll be interesting to hear if the tone from dad and KM changes much in the next 24 hours, post-surgery and after discussions with the specialists.
I think super-competitive kids like this will always want to initially respond with "I'll be ok. I can still play..." But after some sober contemplation about the risks, things may change. Also, I can't see how this doesn't affect his/their whole practice routine too. (Who do you practice with and under what style??) And does that further complicate the risk of further injury?

But like some posters have mentioned, not a lot of sympathy flowing our away following Ryan Kelly's loss from the IC boards (or a number of really, really obnoxious taunting posts from "visiting" NC fans over on TDD), nor in the stands in Greensboro from the thousands of fervent, light-blue clad Lehigh fanatics Friday night...

In any event, it'll be very interesting to see how it plays out this week. But I honestly DO feel for the poor kid...
Speedy, safe recovery wishes! :)

Sgt. Dingleberry
03-19-2012, 09:04 AM
Wow, that was just blatant. Reminded me of this foul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZZuG_ygtUg) by FSU on Singler a couple years ago. I really wish the refs could use video replay and eject players for stuff like this.

I don't know, I have seen Zeller put on so many "performances", it's tough for me to tell if that was a legit forearm or not. The kid is smart, he has made an art out of taking advantage of the refs being predictable. He gets in an advantageous position and forces them to make a call that can pretty much only go his way. Have you seen his "croc roll"? If a defender gets an arm out of position up by Zeller's neck or wedged under his arm, he will start spinning in circles, like a crocodile, the other player's arm will get tangled in Zeller and it looks like the defender is fouling, but Zeller is initiating all of it.

There is this onehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWuK2-8sXGo

That forearm looks like it has intent, but it's like the boy who cried wolf. I can't tell if it is legit or not, because of his past behavior.

Matches
03-19-2012, 09:10 AM
I'm sure they'll make an informed decision, after consultation with the docs, and with Marshall's long-term health as the first priority.

Guys have played with broken bones before. IIRC Kevin McHale played a big part of one season with a broken bone in his foot. It did cause him long-term problems - on the other hand, he was a professional rather than a 19-20 year old kid.

As a parent I would be terrified. Even with a cast on, even taking every precaution imaginable, what if he falls on his hand?

CDu
03-19-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm sure they'll make an informed decision, after consultation with the docs, and with Marshall's long-term health as the first priority.

Guys have played with broken bones before. IIRC Kevin McHale played a big part of one season with a broken bone in his foot. It did cause him long-term problems - on the other hand, he was a professional rather than a 19-20 year old kid.

As a parent I would be terrified. Even with a cast on, even taking every precaution imaginable, what if he falls on his hand?

There's a difference between a big guy who is already slow and not an athlete playing with a broken foot and a PG playing with a broken hand. Ballhandling is so much more a part of his role, and if he's wearing any sort of cast on his right hand I just don't see how he can play effectively for them (especially now that the other team knows they can focus on that injury). And that doesn't even begin to discuss the pain aspect or any risk of further injury.

That said, I'm sure that both UNC and the Marshalls will make an informed decision that's in the best interest of Kendall Marshall first and foremost. And the only quote I'd take as worth a grain of salt at this point is Roy Williams's statement that "Kendall Marshall has a broken bone and we don't know anything more at this time." I'm sure that Marshall and his dad were just talking optimistically at the time and really hadn't had time to discuss things with the doctors yet. I'm also pretty confident that neither has the medical experience to make such a statement. My inclination is that he won't play again this season, but we'll see what happens as the days progress.

If Marshall can't go, I'd take UNC over Ohio (but wouldn't be shocked by an upset there) but I'd take either State or KU over UNC in the Elite 8. I certainly wouldn't be picking UNC to win the championship as I don't think UNC has the chops to win it all without a healthy and effective Marshall. Basically, there are three guys that UNC couldn't afford to lose to injury and still hope to win it: Marshall, Zeller, and Henson. Anybody else could be replaced to a degree such that they'd still be elite (even Harrison Barnes). But losing any of those three makes them very very mortal.

ChicagoHeel
03-19-2012, 11:01 AM
If Marshall can't go, I'd take UNC over Ohio (but wouldn't be shocked by an upset there) but I'd take either State or KU over UNC in the Elite 8. I certainly wouldn't be picking UNC to win the championship as I don't think UNC has the chops to win it all without a healthy and effective Marshall. Basically, there are three guys that UNC couldn't afford to lose to injury and still hope to win it: Marshall, Zeller, and Henson. Anybody else could be replaced to a degree such that they'd still be elite (even Harrison Barnes). But losing any of those three makes them very very mortal.

That's my take as well. Without Marshall we're like a Ferrari without the engine. We still look good on the outside, but there's nothing to make us run. If we replace KM with White, we lose a lot offensively and will get destroyed on defense by opposing guards. I'm expecting we will go with a lot of Watts, because he is a capable ball handler and solid defender. We will also probably do a lot of PG by committee. Our only hope is to (1) really step it up on the defensive end and (2) Barnes. Zeller and Henson can only do so much without a good PG to feed them and only Barnes can create his own shot. He'll have to do that with extreme efficiency from here on out. It's hard for me to imagine us making a FF and I'd be stunned if we went beyond that.

I feel terrible for Marshall.

ChicagoHeel
03-19-2012, 11:13 AM
True, which is likely why the Creighton player was called for a Flagrant I.

I also believe another Creighton player got a T for yapping at one of the Tarheels.

No, there were no flagrant fouls called on the double forearm shot to Zeller's throat, or at any other point in the game. I really wish they had called, or at least warned, Creighton for the tomahawk arm chop fouls that they were committing as I thought they were crossing the line from hard to flagrant. To my knowledge none were issued. Even on the foul against Marshall, which I think the replay shows pretty clearly was not intended to injure, there was barely, and I mean barely, a play made on the ball; it was mostly just a forearm to the upper body to keep KM out of the lane. The refs let them play in this one.

Nor was a Creighton player given a technical. Henson was given a technical for getting in the face of a Creighton player after he overreacted to some slaps that hit his injured wrist.

wavedukefan70s
03-19-2012, 11:19 AM
Wow, that was just blatant. Reminded me of this foul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZZuG_ygtUg) by FSU on Singler a couple years ago. I really wish the refs could use video replay and eject players for stuff like this.

Out of all the rule changes they make. this could be a rule i could go for if they would try it.

mr. synellinden
03-19-2012, 11:27 AM
From what I have read about this type of injury, much seems to depend on EXACTLY what kind of damage the individual received.... full fracture, partial fracture... ligament damage.... was the bone displaced etc.
A screw for CERTAIN damage seems the appropriate course of action and in some cases is the permanent fix.
I don't know if anyone outside of his doctors and immediate family know exactly the damage he sustained.
"MAYBE" a very small incision and screw will fix him up but right now I think anyone would be guessing.

From what I have read the cast route takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months to heal.
I'm guessing that the biggest concern at this time would be preventing any nerve damage which is a concern in this type injury..... or so I have read.

I had the same fracture to my dominant hand (i.e., right wrist) but it was non-displaced - meaning no surgery. Based on my experience, which includes the pain and the time needed for bones to heal (in other words, re-set) I cannot imagine Marshall being able to play before the Final Four. And even that would be a stretch. Even catching a hard pass would hurt, and any contact would risk further serious damage. With a displaced fracture, 4 weeks is usually an absolute minimum healing time. I think Marshall is done for the year, and I think he would be crazy to try to play.

slower
03-19-2012, 11:27 AM
That's my take as well. Without Marshall we're like a Ferrari without the engine.

Or a foot without a big toe.

superdave
03-19-2012, 11:31 AM
No, there were no flagrant fouls called on the double forearm shot to Zeller's throat, or at any other point in the game. I really wish they had called, or at least warned, Creighton for the tomahawk arm chop fouls that they were committing as I thought they were crossing the line from hard to flagrant. To my knowledge none were issued. Even on the foul against Marshall, which I think the replay shows pretty clearly was not intended to injure, there was barely, and I mean barely, a play made on the ball; it was mostly just a forearm to the upper body to keep KM out of the lane. The refs let them play in this one.

Nor was a Creighton player given a technical. Henson was given a technical for getting in the face of a Creighton player after he overreacted to some slaps that hit his injured wrist.

I spent 4 years hoping the refs would start calling charges and over the back calls on Hansborough. So perhaps the basketball gods are just evening things out.

Is the consensus that Stillman White would start Friday? Or that someone like Barnes would slide over?

MulletMan
03-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Marshall's fracture is displaced, and the surgery that he is having is to insert a pin to set the bone. Here's the scary thing about them talking about him playing... the most common side effect from these types of breaks not healing properly is chronic arthritis of the wrist. You're talking about a kid going out less than a week after doing this and risking one of his possible careers (I'm not saying his career, because Marshall is a smart kid and will be fine after UNC and basketball). Think about all the precautions taken with Kyrie's toe last year. Apply them here.

I think that you would have trouble finding a doctor who would clear someone for this type of athletic activity after an injury like this.

We're going to find out a lot about Roy in the next week. A lot.

UrinalCake
03-19-2012, 11:50 AM
Is the consensus that Stillman White would start Friday? Or that someone like Barnes would slide over?

We've heard of the four guard offense - it's time for UNC to break out the NO guard offense. They should play Bullock, Hairston, Barnes, Henson, and Zeller. Zone defense for sure. They're so long that all they have to do is just stand there with their hands up and Ohio won't be able to shoot over them. On offense I can see Bullock or Hairston lobbing the ball up in the air underhand style from half court and then letting the big guys swarm for the offensive boards.

Obviously this is a joke, but to a very small extent I could see them running this kind of offense - zoning it up on defense and then scoring exclusively in the post, knowing that they'll get a ton of offensive boards and that's actually probably the best way to get the ball to their big men.

gus
03-19-2012, 11:54 AM
We're going to find out a lot about Roy in the next week. A lot.

He would never risk injury to his players by making them play in a dangerous situation. Not his starters anyway.

weezie
03-19-2012, 11:57 AM
We're going to find out a lot about Roy in the next week. A lot.

Ugh, do we HAVE to? :(

From the front page article about hole fans tormenting the Creighton kid that they hold responsible for the injury, I think I've learned more than I ever cared to know.

I'm sure Roy won't take any chances. How can he with the whole sports world watching him?

DukeGirl4ever
03-19-2012, 12:03 PM
Ugh, do we HAVE to? :(

From the front page article about hole fans tormenting the Creighton kid that they hold responsible for the injury, I think I've learned more than I ever cared to know.

I'm sure Roy won't take any chances. How can he with the whole sports world watching him?

If you watched him last night, you could tell he was experiencing another catastrophe.

I think Weezie hit the nail on the head. The whole world will be watching. No doubt Tar Heel fans are all about getting him back in there as soon as possible (see Inside Carolina for a bunch of laughs).

The rest of the responsible world, however, may look at Roy in a different light. I mean think about it....everyone in the world is going to know what happened with Kendall's wrist. A smart coach, not a dirty one, will tell his players to get up and attack, pressure the ball, and be physical with KM. We've seen it in the NFL - if they know a guy has an injury, they attack that injury. So, why would Ol Roy put his player in that kind of situation? Well, I think he already knows what he has to do which is why he was such a Nervous Nellie after the game last night.

dukedoc
03-19-2012, 12:08 PM
He would never risk injury to his players by making them play in a dangerous situation. Not his starters anyway.

ZING!

superdave
03-19-2012, 12:17 PM
If I were Roy, I would put Barnes at the 1 and make sure the other four guys are ready to bail him out if he gets in trouble bringing the ball past half-court. I'd emphasize passing the ball over dribbling.

The other option is to play Stillman White as the primary 1 and roll with the same offense, albeit with much lower expectations. But he is unlikely to play 35 minutes, so a backup plan almost has to be having Barnes dominate the ball.

Tell Barnes he's the next Magic Johnson and practice that way all week.

MCFinARL
03-19-2012, 12:25 PM
If I were Roy, I would put Barnes at the 1 and make sure the other four guys are ready to bail him out if he gets in trouble bringing the ball past half-court. I'd emphasize passing the ball over dribbling.

The other option is to play Stillman White as the primary 1 and roll with the same offense, albeit with much lower expectations. But he is unlikely to play 35 minutes, so a backup plan almost has to be having Barnes dominate the ball.

Tell Barnes he's the next Magic Johnson and practice that way all week.

Conveniently, same initials as the person Barnes already thinks/hopes he is the next one of, so that should work. ;)

Duvall
03-19-2012, 12:33 PM
If I were Roy, I would put Barnes at the 1 and make sure the other four guys are ready to bail him out if he gets in trouble bringing the ball past half-court. I'd emphasize passing the ball over dribbling.

But then you risk losing two key players - Marshall to injury, and Barnes to changing his entire game on the fly. Your second option seems more likely, White and Watts to bring the ball up the floor, and let the other four players do what they do.

nolan8or
03-19-2012, 12:54 PM
Tell Barnes he's the next Magic Johnson and practice that way all week.

And we think his ego is big now. Can you imagine how big it would get if they won with him at point?

superdave
03-19-2012, 12:56 PM
But then you risk losing two key players - Marshall to injury, and Barnes to changing his entire game on the fly. Your second option seems more likely, White and Watts to bring the ball up the floor, and let the other four players do what they do.

But then you're getting an awful lot of Watts and White. I'm assuming you cannot get away that vs. Kansas. Maybe vs. Ohio.

CDu
03-19-2012, 01:17 PM
Is the consensus that Stillman White would start Friday? Or that someone like Barnes would slide over?

In the post-game press conference, Roy Williams was asked who would play the point if Marshall can't go. His answer was either White or Watts. My guess would be that White will get a shot with Watts backing him up. If neither can cut it, then they'd go to Barnes. But that'd be an absolute last resort, as Barnes has shown very limited ballhandling skills and no playmaking skills to this point in his college career. The same could be said of Watts and White, but at least with those guys you're not also taking away one of your best off-ball scorers in Barnes.

David Glenn just summed it up best when he said something to the effect of "there is no good look for UNC if Marshall can't play." There isn't an option that covers up for Marshall's loss in any degree without exposing another big weakness. This was an already very short rotation. Losing the only ACC-caliber guard (and a fantastic one at that) would be debilitating. Everything they do offensively revolves around his skills.

Without Marshall, that offense becomes a one-on-one half court offense with virtually no threat of dribble penetration. And only Zeller and Barnes have shown any consistent ability to score on their own.

ncexnyc
03-19-2012, 01:21 PM
Should my co-workers decide to taunt me over the Lehigh loss, I've come up with a fitting response.


Ol’ Roy says, “Kid I need you to go.”
But you’re looking ahead to NBA dough.

That’s the breaks, that’s the breaks.

Cause your scaphoid bones connected to the hand.
And you’ll dribble the ball like it’s a can of Spam.

That’s the breaks, that’s the breaks.

And Tarheel fans might as well go home.
Cause your team aint making it to the dome.

That’s the breaks, that’s the breaks.

Well these are the breaks. Break it up, break it up, break it up, break down!



I hope the young man does the smart thing and lets his wrist heal properly. I know the ring is a huge pull emotionally, but he's got a lot more ball playing ahead of him and good things as well only if he's fully recovered.

Kewlswim
03-19-2012, 01:27 PM
Hi,

I am sure Kyrie will tell him about how the Duke staff made sure he was totally healed before he was allowed to play again. I am sure Kyrie will tell him about how Coach K was not going to let him play and risk his future. Coach K and Duke did the right thing, I have to believe that when push comes to shove UNC will do the same because I really do believe that they care about their kids too. Part of what makes the rivalry the rivalry is how both programs do the right thing for their athletes.

GO DUKE!

CDu
03-19-2012, 01:30 PM
But then you're getting an awful lot of Watts and White. I'm assuming you cannot get away that vs. Kansas. Maybe vs. Ohio.

I don't think a Marshall-less team gets past Kansas or NC State regardless of who plays PG. If you go with White, you lose a ton on offense and a ton on defense. If you go with Watts, you lose even more on offense but you might actually be better defensively. If you go with Barnes, I think you lose a similar amount on offense as going with Watts (if you then start Hairston) and probably stay close to the same on defense. If you go with Barnes at PG and Watts at SF, your defense improves but your offense is probably the worst of the three options.

There really isn't a good look for UNC if Marshall can't go. I'd say that Ohio's lack of size will do them in unless their guards are off the charts. But I don't think there's any lineup configuration that gets UNC past Kansas or State that doesn't involve Marshall at the PG (unless those teams just lay an absolute egg).

UrinalCake
03-19-2012, 01:59 PM
I am sure Kyrie will tell him about how the Duke staff made sure he was totally healed before he was allowed to play again. I am sure Kyrie will tell him about how Coach K was not going to let him play and risk his future.

I don't think Kyrie was completely healed when he came back. I don't think he was even completely healed by the following fall. I do think he was at the point where he could play on it and there was no risk of further injury, if that's what you meant. And I think Roy will do the same thing, despite all of the shots that Duke fans are trying to take at him.

Selfishly, I'm wondering if this injury will affect his decision to turn pro. I don't even know where he was leaning before the injury, but conceivably it could force him to stay. Ugh.

As for the upcoming games, I see Barnes taking a ton of shots. He's the only guy that has any semblance of ability to create his own shot. Let White or Watts get the ball down the court, let Barnes fire away, and send everyone else to the glass. They'll still score a lot of points that way.

alteran
03-19-2012, 02:12 PM
Tell Barnes he's the next Magic Johnson and practice that way all week.

I don't think Barnes ego would take the downgrade well.

gus
03-19-2012, 02:19 PM
And I think Roy will do the same thing, despite all of the shots that Duke fans are trying to take at him.


I was joking above, of course. I really do not believe Williams will play Marshall if there's even a slight chance it will lead to further injury or long term problems. And I believe that because I think that despite his PR gaffes and his blunder in tallahasee, Williams cares about his players. But even if I were more cynical and thought he was a "me first" "I could give a you know what about [the players]" kind of coach, I still think he wouldn't play Marshall unless there was minimal risk (there's always some) of re-injury or permanent problems.

In that context: He already has two championships, and he has to recognize that his chances of winning it all with a diminished Marshall are small. It will serve him much more to be able to show that he cares about his players, and has a built in excuse for not advancing past the elite eight. And if the rejiggered team continues to make a run, well golly, look how good a coach he is to make those adjustments.

But again, I think he'll do the right thing because it's the right thing.

Kewlswim
03-19-2012, 02:21 PM
I don't think Kyrie was completely healed when he came back. I don't think he was even completely healed by the following fall. I do think he was at the point where he could play on it and there was no risk of further injury, if that's what you meant. And I think Roy will do the same thing, despite all of the shots that Duke fans are trying to take at him.

Selfishly, I'm wondering if this injury will affect his decision to turn pro. I don't even know where he was leaning before the injury, but conceivably it could force him to stay. Ugh.

As for the upcoming games, I see Barnes taking a ton of shots. He's the only guy that has any semblance of ability to create his own shot. Let White or Watts get the ball down the court, let Barnes fire away, and send everyone else to the glass. They'll still score a lot of points that way.

Hi,

Kyrie looked pretty darn healed (no pun intended UNC fans) when Duke played Michigan. I don't know for sure though. I didn't even mention Ole Roy and wasn't taking shots at him. I was serious in that they will probably do the right thing because I think they care about their kids.

GO DUKE!

Greg_Newton
03-19-2012, 02:27 PM
Dennis Marshall still seems to be holding out hope that Kendall will play at some point this weekend. Seems absolutely absurd, but I guess his season may not be over yet...

oldnavy
03-19-2012, 02:32 PM
I am truely sorry for KM and the team.

I can't imagine that he plays. If he cannot use that hand to dribble or pass (if it has to be immobilized), not sure he can be the primary ball handler... However, UNC is still loaded with talent. Losing Marshall is a HUGE hit, but if Ol Roy can move away from his preferred style of play and utilize a slower, half court offense.... who knows?

WiJoe
03-19-2012, 02:35 PM
Until I see him in civvies before the game, I say he's starting, as per usual.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 02:38 PM
We're going to find out a lot about Roy in the next week. A lot.

Why is that? I mean, if Marshall can play at some time, I would think Roy would decide whether he would be an asset to the team or a detriment and act accordingly.

If Marshall looked Roy in the eye and said he wanted to play..... that he could get hit by a car the week after the final game of the tourney ... that there are no guarantees in life and that he wanted his shot right now what would Roy say?
Would he tell him no?

I think IF Marshall can play and he wants to, I think the only decision that's Roy's is deciding how effective Marshall could be and whether or not he would hurt the team.

Individuals vary in mindset and goals....... IF Marshall wants his shot and can benefit the team I think Roy lets him play. I DON'T see Roy demanding or coercing Marshall to play.

ChicagoHeel
03-19-2012, 02:39 PM
Dennis Marshall still seems to be holding out hope that Kendall will play at some point this weekend. Seems absolutely absurd, but I guess his season may not be over yet...

I've also seen some of the tweets that Marshall's father has been putting out indicating Marshall may play and, I agree, it seems absurd. Even if he could play, it's hard to imagine he should play given the possibility of further injury and long-term problems. Maybe it is strategy- make Ohio, NCSU, and KU prepare as if they were going to face Marshall. I doubt that's what it is- more likely just the blind hope of a father who really wants his son to get a FF. At this point though, I'm afraid the best way to do that is to convince him (along with Barnes and Henson) to come back for another year.

dukedoc
03-19-2012, 02:42 PM
I've also seen some of the tweets that Marshall's father has been putting out indicating Marshall may play and, I agree, it seems absurd. Even if he could play, it's hard to imagine he should play given the possibility of further injury and long-term problems. Maybe it is strategy- make Ohio, NCSU, and KU prepare as if they were going to face Marshall. I doubt that's what it is- more likely just the blind hope of a father who really wants his son to get a FF. At this point though, I'm afraid the best way to do that is to convince him (along with Barnes and Henson) to come back for another year.

Sounds like some spin from Mr. Marshall or denial or both.

MulletMan
03-19-2012, 02:48 PM
Why is that? I mean, if Marshall can play at some time, I would think Roy would decide whether he would be an asset to the team or a detriment and act accordingly.

If Marshall looked Roy in the eye and said he wanted to play..... that he could get hit by a car the week after the final game of the tourney ... that there are no guarantees in life and that he wanted his shot right now what would Roy say?
Would he tell him no?

I think IF Marshall can play and he wants to, I think the only decision that's Roy's is deciding how effective Marshall could be and whether or not he would hurt the team.

Individuals vary in mindset and goals....... IF Marshall wants his shot and can benefit the team I think Roy lets him play. I DON'T see Roy demanding or coercing Marshall to play.

When you are 18-20 years old you may think that you know what's best, but in reality, in situations like this, cooler, older heads need to prevail. There is no doubt that Marshall playing would be a danger to his future considering the type of injury that has occurred. His father is on Twitter talking about this kid playing. Roy's responsibility should be to take care of the young man and sit him for his own good. I don't think he will, but he should.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 02:52 PM
But then you risk losing two key players - Marshall to injury, and Barnes to changing his entire game on the fly. Your second option seems more likely, White and Watts to bring the ball up the floor, and let the other four players do what they do.

IMO Roy will do the same thing he has done all year long when Marshall wasn't on the floor. I think White starts the game and Barnes helps out and handles the ball more.... it's what they have done all year long and I don't believe Roy will change at this point... why would he? He at least was thinking about a potential injury to Marshall and the minutes that White saw are very important now.

It's a huge hit for the Heels but I believe Roy is at least somewhat prepared for this situation and will do what he has done all year .... go to White then Watts and have Barnes help out.

No mystery.

UrinalCake
03-19-2012, 03:07 PM
They had a doctor on the David Glenn show this afternoon (probably an ortho but I'm not positive) and he was describing the specific injury that Marshall is reported to have, though with the caveat that he is not Marshall's doctor and has not seen the specific details of this case. Anyways, he said one option was to insert a screw to stabilize the bone, have Marshall wear a hard plastic support around the wrist during the day and night, then tape it heavily during the game and be able to play. There wouldn't be any risk of injuring it further, but it would mostly be an issue of how much discomfort he would feel and how that would affect his movement. He also said that Marshall should be feeling better with each passing DAY, rather than each week, so if UNC were to survive the weekend then he should be in much better shape for the final four.

Again this was informed speculation based on limited known facts and not to be interpreted as a medical diagnosis. But that's what he said concerning these types of injuries, for what it's worth.

oldnavy
03-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Roy already said that he would listen to what the experts say. If the medical opinion is that he sits, then he will sit. If the medical opinion is that he can go, then he will go providing he is up to it. Roy is a lot of things, but I don't think he would risk further injury by going against a hand specialists opinion....

If Barnes is asked to handle the ball more, I think that would be a disasater... Barnes is a very good spot up or one to two dribble pull up (step back) shooter, beyond that he is not a playmaker that will make the others on the team better.

I think the best option is to go with White, and slow things down a little. On defense it could be a mess with White trying to guard a quick PG, but you could off set that some by going zone...

If I were the oppossing coach, I would pressure the ball full court and make UNC show me that they can beat the pressure with passing.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 03:25 PM
They had a doctor on the David Glenn show this afternoon (probably an ortho but I'm not positive) and he was describing the specific injury that Marshall is reported to have, though with the caveat that he is not Marshall's doctor and has not seen the specific details of this case. Anyways, he said one option was to insert a screw to stabilize the bone, have Marshall wear a hard plastic support around the wrist during the day and night, then tape it heavily during the game and be able to play. There wouldn't be any risk of injuring it further, but it would mostly be an issue of how much discomfort he would feel and how that would affect his movement. He also said that Marshall should be feeling better with each passing DAY, rather than each week, so if UNC were to survive the weekend then he should be in much better shape for the final four.

Again this was informed speculation based on limited known facts and not to be interpreted as a medical diagnosis. But that's what he said concerning these types of injuries, for what it's worth.

This is basically what I heard from someone this morning.
Seems this is a fairly common sports injury and that new/better methods have developed in it's treatment.
IF, I said IF UNC makes it through this weekend, I think there is a good chance we'll see Marshall..... we might see him a little on Sunday who knows?

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00012

UrinalCake
03-19-2012, 03:31 PM
IMO Roy will do the same thing he has done all year long when Marshall wasn't on the floor.

It's a little different though... during the year when Marshall sat, the backup simply need to hold down the fort. It was like killing a power play in hockey - you don't need to beat the opponent for that stretch, you just need to minimize the damage. But with Marshall completely out, they can't do that the whole game.

I don't get the talk of Barnes running the point. Wouldn't it make more sense for PJ Hairston or Bullock to bring the ball up?

oldnavy
03-19-2012, 03:53 PM
They had a doctor on the David Glenn show this afternoon (probably an ortho but I'm not positive) and he was describing the specific injury that Marshall is reported to have, though with the caveat that he is not Marshall's doctor and has not seen the specific details of this case. Anyways, he said one option was to insert a screw to stabilize the bone, have Marshall wear a hard plastic support around the wrist during the day and night, then tape it heavily during the game and be able to play. There wouldn't be any risk of injuring it further, but it would mostly be an issue of how much discomfort he would feel and how that would affect his movement. He also said that Marshall should be feeling better with each passing DAY, rather than each week, so if UNC were to survive the weekend then he should be in much better shape for the final four.

Again this was informed speculation based on limited known facts and not to be interpreted as a medical diagnosis. But that's what he said concerning these types of injuries, for what it's worth.

Of course there would be risk to re-injure the wrist. There is always risk involved.... not sure if he meant that he would be at no greater risk than had he not sustained the injury in the first place or what?

UrinalCake
03-19-2012, 04:00 PM
Of course there would be risk to re-injure the wrist. There is always risk involved.... not sure if he meant that he would be at no greater risk than had he not sustained the injury in the first place or what?

Well of course, there's always the risk that a meteor would land on the arena killing everyone :) But yeah, I think he means that he's not at any greater risk of causing further injury. I took it to mean that Marshall is not risking his future by choosing to play. It's kind of hard to believe that to really be the case though, I mean the guy just had surgery today and had a screw put in his body, and his wrist is supposed to be immobilized. Catching, dribbling, and shooting a basketball can't be good for it. But that's what the doctor said.

OldSchool
03-19-2012, 04:03 PM
On defense it could be a mess with White trying to guard a quick PG, but you could off set that some by going zone...

I don't think they are going to miss him that much on defense. When you have a guy like John Henson of UNC or Anthony Davis of KY lurking in the lane, penetration by the opposing point guard is much less of a problem.

But offensively, especially in transition, they will miss Marshall. In theory though with weapons like Zeller and Henson and Barnes and McAdoo and 3pt shooters like Bullock and PJ Hairston you should be able to beat all but a couple of teams with half court offense and even those other couple of teams match up well, but Roy is not known as master of the half-court offense.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 04:08 PM
It's a little different though... during the year when Marshall sat, the backup simply need to hold down the fort. It was like killing a power play in hockey - you don't need to beat the opponent for that stretch, you just need to minimize the damage. But with Marshall completely out, they can't do that the whole game.

Agreed. UNC's game will change to the extent that Barnes, Hairston, and Bullock will have to be ready to assist White when he gets in trouble. They can't go into their regular offense with White leading the team.
Like I said, all year long when White has been in the game, Barnes and others have helped out and hedged a great deal.
I think I heard that White had only 2 turnovers in 70 minutes of play this year..... not bad. He is going to need help and know when to give up the ball.


I don't get the talk of Barnes running the point. Wouldn't it make more sense for PJ Hairston or Bullock to bring the ball up?

I say Roy goes with White for the simple fact that he has done that all year. I think he was preparing for a Marshall injury.
I don't see him changing things up at this point. If he was planning on Hairston or Bullock being the primary ball handler in Marshall's absence I think that is what we would have seen during the year.
I don't see him going crazy and changing things.

CajunDevil
03-19-2012, 04:20 PM
Well of course, there's always the risk that a meteor would land on the arena killing everyone :) But yeah, I think he means that he's not at any greater risk of causing further injury. I took it to mean that Marshall is not risking his future by choosing to play. It's kind of hard to believe that to really be the case though, I mean the guy just had surgery today and had a screw put in his body, and his wrist is supposed to be immobilized. Catching, dribbling, and shooting a basketball can't be good for it. But that's what the doctor said.


If he were just walking around being a normal guy there wouldn't be a risk of further injury, but if he plays and is trapped hard incessantly with guys swatting at the ball using tremendous force or he drives to the basket and instinctively reaches out to brace his fall, then I think it's more of a question of how much damage is done to the wrist and not if any further injury will occur? Plus, his dad seems like a wild-man by tweeting something to the effect "hold on to your seatbelts"...

cruxer
03-19-2012, 04:22 PM
This is basically what I heard from someone this morning.
Seems this is a fairly common sports injury and that new/better methods have developed in it's treatment.
IF, I said IF UNC makes it through this weekend, I think there is a good chance we'll see Marshall..... we might see him a little on Sunday who knows?

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00012

The advice listed on the website:

Avoid heavy lifting, carrying, pushing, pulling, or throwing with the injured arm
Do not participate in contact sports
Do not climb ladders or trees
Avoid activities with a risk of falling onto hand (for example, inline skating, jumping on a trampoline)


Sounds exactly like the advice I got from my doc after I broke the exact same bone 8 years ago. I had the wrist surgically repaired and wasn't cleared for any physical activity with the wrist for 4 months. I can't imagine it will be any different for Marshall, unfortunately. I should also point out that the break was really incredibly painful, and I wasn't exerting more pressure on it by continuing to participate in a sport like basketball, where you use your hands so much (though I did play in the rest of the football game that I broke the wrist in).

Even as a Duke fan, I really like and feel for the kid, but I just can't see how he can go for the rest of the tourney.

-c

oldnavy
03-19-2012, 05:22 PM
Well of course, there's always the risk that a meteor would land on the arena killing everyone :) But yeah, I think he means that he's not at any greater risk of causing further injury. I took it to mean that Marshall is not risking his future by choosing to play. It's kind of hard to believe that to really be the case though, I mean the guy just had surgery today and had a screw put in his body, and his wrist is supposed to be immobilized. Catching, dribbling, and shooting a basketball can't be good for it. But that's what the doctor said.

I'm thinking like you, how can it not be more risky for him to play?? Granted I am not an orthopod, but just common sense would tell you that a broken bone with a screw in it just days after surgery cannot be fully healed and back to baseline as far as injury risks go...

But, who knows.

As far as the risk assessment goes, I have a sort of funny story regarding my son. We discovered that he has a very mild Chiari malformation. Essentially his brain in the back of his head extends a little below the base of his skull. Chiari malformations can range anywhere from asymptomatic, didn't know you had it and lead a full healthy life, to lethal. Fortunately my son's is the former. Anyway, we were following up with the neurosurgeon at DUMC (Dr Fuchs, who btw was amazing).... I asked him if my son could play football if he deceided he wanted to. Dr Fuchs, looked at me and said, "I am a neurosurgeon, I don't think anyone should play football". So, I said OK, let me rephrase the question, is my son at any greater risk of injury due to his Chiari malformation than he would be without it. Dr Fuchs replied, "no". So, I had my answer.

I hope KM can play and is 100%. He seems like a great kid and is a wonderful talent. I also hope that they get crushed in the next game they play.

Greg_Newton
03-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Well of course, there's always the risk that a meteor would land on the arena killing everyone :) But yeah, I think he means that he's not at any greater risk of causing further injury. I took it to mean that Marshall is not risking his future by choosing to play. It's kind of hard to believe that to really be the case though, I mean the guy just had surgery today and had a screw put in his body, and his wrist is supposed to be immobilized. Catching, dribbling, and shooting a basketball can't be good for it. But that's what the doctor said.

Yeah, this is just flat out wrong, though. If someone says that a college basketball player is not at increased risk by playing a full-contact game less than a week after a fracture and surgery of the scaphoid, they're simply incorrect. There are mild risks, like increased aggravation to the area that would cause pain, swelling, etc., but there are also risks that could end Kendall's basketball career; a scaphoid fracture is not an injury you want to "not heal" or "heal wrong", put it that way.

To put it bluntly, there would be extremely severe risks to playing, and it's Roy's responsibility to not let a 19 year-old's exuberance potentially ruin his life and cost him hundreds of millions in career earnings doing what he loves, under his watch. I think that, in the end, he'll do the right thing.

mgtr
03-19-2012, 07:19 PM
Well, I am confused. I have read the entire thread, and I haven't seen anything that says for sure how serious Marshall's injury is. Has UNC released any further info? Apparently his father insists that Marshall can play. Is that realistic? When are we likely to learn anything for sure? When the team comes out for warmups?

Greg_Newton
03-19-2012, 07:37 PM
Well, I am confused. I have read the entire thread, and I haven't seen anything that says for sure how serious Marshall's injury is. Has UNC released any further info? Apparently his father insists that Marshall can play. Is that realistic? When are we likely to learn anything for sure? When the team comes out for warmups?

The facts are that he fractured the scaphoid bone in his wrist, and had surgery to anchor the bone with a screw this morning.

That's really all we know for sure. The confusing part is that it's extremely risky to engage in contact physical activity less than a week after this kind of fracture/surgery - to the extent that the bone could literally die - yet Marshall's father keeps sending out optimistic vibes about this weekend.

However, he's kind of a known blowhard, so I'd guess the most likely scenario is that he's wrong, and that Marshall will allow the bone to heal, as to not ruin his NBA career. It's certainly a strange situation to follow, though.

slower
03-19-2012, 07:40 PM
The facts are that he fractured the scaphoid bone in his wrist, and had surgery to anchor the bone with a screw this morning.

That's really all we know for sure. The confusing part is that it's extremely risky to engage in contact physical activity less than a week after this kind of fracture/surgery - to the extent that the bone could literally die - yet Marshall's father keeps sending out optimistic vibes about this weekend.

However, he's kind of a known blowhard, so I'd guess the most likely scenario is that he's wrong, and that Marshall will allow the bone to heal, as to not ruin his NBA career. It's certainly a strange situation to follow, though.

I think that, if there's any way he can get Marshall to play without having it seem like it was Roy's idea, Roy will try to get him out there on the court. Should make for must-see TV, whatever happens. This could be Ol' Roy's greatest Shakespearian performance ever. Can't wait!

Newton_14
03-19-2012, 07:52 PM
Well of course, there's always the risk that a meteor would land on the arena killing everyone :) But yeah, I think he means that he's not at any greater risk of causing further injury. I took it to mean that Marshall is not risking his future by choosing to play. It's kind of hard to believe that to really be the case though, I mean the guy just had surgery today and had a screw put in his body, and his wrist is supposed to be immobilized. Catching, dribbling, and shooting a basketball can't be good for it. But that's what the doctor said.

FWIW, the ortho doc on the Adam Gold show said the exact opposite this afternoon. Who knows what the truth is? That doc said that it would be high risk to play, could cause longterm issues, and they would have to put some sort of plastic brace on it to immobilize the wrist, but in doing that, it would severely limit his use of the hand. The bone he broke connects to the forearm bone and is critical to the ability to bend the wrist. He said playing would put Marshall at risk as contact could cause the screw to move, and would jeopardize the healing process. He would also be at a higher risk to break it again. His opinion was that he did not expect Marshall to play this weekend at all, and if he tried to play, he would be very limited.

At the end of the day, everyone heals differently, so who knows. Given the injury, I think it would be a miracle for him to be able to play this weekend. I expect there will be tons and tons of spin, conjecture, and opinions between now and Friday.

Duvall
03-19-2012, 08:01 PM
The facts are that he fractured the scaphoid bone in his wrist, and had surgery to anchor the bone with a screw this morning.

That's really all we know for sure. The confusing part is that it's extremely risky to engage in contact physical activity less than a week after this kind of fracture/surgery - to the extent that the bone could literally die - yet Marshall's father keeps sending out optimistic vibes about this weekend.

However, he's kind of a known blowhard, so I'd guess the most likely scenario is that he's wrong, and that Marshall will allow the bone to heal, as to not ruin his NBA career. It's certainly a strange situation to follow, though.

Well, it's not just Dennis Marshall. (https://twitter.com/#!/bylinerp/status/181880620476153858)


"My guess is -- purely a guess -- that he will not play. But we're uncertain." -Roy Williams on Kendall Marshall.

UNC is giving every appearance that this is going to be a game-time decision, which is rather surprising.

WiJoe
03-19-2012, 08:02 PM
When the team comes out for warmups?

Bingo!

When he's in civvies.

ncexnyc
03-19-2012, 08:12 PM
Or between Devil and Heel fans. So I walk into work today and find my desk plastered with this cute little photo of Josh looking up at the scoreboard, which has the caption, "Either we just lost or I'm serious Lehigh." Now I must admit it was kind of cute, but after finding one in every drawer, on the monitor, and every other place they could stick one I wasn't in that cheerful of a mood.

So of course the first person who mentioned our game got hit with the Curtis Blow rap. As usual the response was, "Well we got further than you." To which I asked if they would like to make a small wager. The silence was deafening.:D

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 08:18 PM
Or between Devil and Heel fans. So I walk into work today and find my desk plastered with this cute little photo of Josh looking up at the scoreboard, which has the caption, "Either we just lost or I'm serious Lehigh." Now I must admit it was kind of cute, but after finding one in every drawer, on the monitor, and every other place they could stick one I wasn't in that cheerful of a mood.

So of course the first person who mentioned our game got hit with the Curtis Blow rap. As usual the response was, "Well we got further than you." To which I asked if they would like to make a small wager. The silence was deafening.:D

You mean you were brave enough to offer a bet after Marshall goes down?? Dang man, you have some guts don't you!!:D

ncexnyc
03-19-2012, 08:20 PM
You mean you were brave enough to offer a bet after Marshall goes down?? Dang man, you have some guts don't you!!:D
Haven't you heard Marshall's playing or at least that what my co-workers keep insisting.

slower
03-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Can somebody remind me again why this thread is NOT called "The Kendall Marshall Wrist Watch"? :)

Newton_14
03-19-2012, 08:44 PM
You mean you were brave enough to offer a bet after Marshall goes down?? Dang man, you have some guts don't you!!:D

So whats your thoughts on this one? Do you think Marshall plays this weekend? If not, does Roy go with Stillman White backed up by Watts, or does he reverse that, and start with Watts?

g-money
03-19-2012, 08:46 PM
You mean you were brave enough to offer a bet after Marshall goes down?? Dang man, you have some guts don't you!!:D

After reading a few of your posts today it is obvious that the id "#1Duke" is a misrepresentation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 08:57 PM
So whats your thoughts on this one? Do you think Marshall plays this weekend? If not, does Roy go with Stillman White backed up by Watts, or does he reverse that, and start with Watts?

I have said that I think Roy goes with White backed up by Watts... that's what I think. With Barnes and others handling the ball more often than they did with Marshall.
It's how they played it all year and I don't think they'll change now. I think Roy was semi-preparing for a Marshall injury and if he wasn't going to use White/Watts we would have seen a different scenario all year.
But who knows for sure?

Oh, and I don't think you see Marshall this weekend. IF the Heels are lucky enough to make it through to the next weekend, I have no doubt Marshall plays if given the green light by his doctors.

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 08:59 PM
After reading a few of your posts today it is obvious that the id "#1Duke" is a misrepresentation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, you wrong. I have said it here a number of times, I don't let my emotions get in the way of my objectivity... just how I roll.:D

FerryFor50
03-19-2012, 09:09 PM
I have said that I think Roy goes with White backed up by Watts... that's what I think. With Barnes and others handling the ball more often than they did with Marshall.
It's how they played it all year and I don't think they'll change now. I think Roy was semi-preparing for a Marshall injury and if he wasn't going to use White/Watts we would have seen a different scenario all year.
But who knows for sure?

Oh, and I don't think you see Marshall this weekend. IF the Heels are lucky enough to make it through to the next weekend, I have no doubt Marshall plays if given the green light by his doctors.

Agreed. I don't think he's able to play... and if they make it to the final four, I'd be SHOCKED if he played with any sort of effectiveness.

roywhite
03-19-2012, 09:11 PM
I have said that I think Roy goes with White backed up by Watts... that's what I think. With Barnes and others handling the ball more often than they did with Marshall.
It's how they played it all year and I don't think they'll change now. I think Roy was semi-preparing for a Marshall injury and if he wasn't going to use White/Watts we would have seen a different scenario all year.
But who knows for sure?

Oh, and I don't think you see Marshall this weekend. IF the Heels are lucky enough to make it through to the next weekend, I have no doubt Marshall plays if given the green light by his doctors.

Something in your post caught my attention.

Who plays? Watts is the answer? And Wear?
St. Louis? Or didn't they go to L.A.?
If White plays, will they have to go to a vanilla offense?

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 09:16 PM
Something in your post caught my attention.

Who plays? Watts is the answer? And Wear?
St. Louis? Or didn't they go to L.A.?
If White plays, will they have to go to a vanilla offense?

HA!! Good one!!

Wheat/"/"/"
03-19-2012, 09:25 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

FerryFor50
03-19-2012, 09:28 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

Glad you have optimism, but he reminds me a whole lot of Bobby Frasor....

slower
03-19-2012, 09:30 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

Ru-dy! Ru-dy! Ru-dy!

Duvall
03-19-2012, 09:32 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Not really. You are underestimating the rest of the NCAA field.

hurleyfor3
03-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Well, I am confused. I have read the entire thread, and I haven't seen anything that says for sure how serious Marshall's injury is.

As you may recall from the 80-page thread on Kyrie's toe, that's hardly unusual round these parts.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-19-2012, 09:32 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

The little bit I've seen of him, White does seem to be pretty quick and he is careful with the ball. He's definately better than Quinton Thomas or LDII. However, performing on this stage in the NCAA tournament is much different than 10 minutes of spot duty during the regular season. My prediction is White performs well enough for UNC to easily beat Ohio but then Kansas or NCSU will have enough tape of his game to render him quite ineffective in the Elite 8.

pfrduke
03-19-2012, 09:32 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

Much like we underestimated Brian Bersticker? ;)

Newton_14
03-19-2012, 09:33 PM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

Then why hasn't he played all year? Marshall played 35 mpg. White would come in one minute before the TV timeout and get yanked coming out of the timeout. Even in the State game during the tourney, Roy used a quick hook on White when Marshall was sitting with foul trouble, and went with Watts.

If White was that good, Roy would have played him the numerous times he had the opportunity, but he didn't. This weekend, Roy won't have a choice. He can't play Watts 35 minutes at the point, using White for his normal spot minutes. At a minimum, White will have to play 15 minutes or so with Watts getting 25. If both of those guys are on the bench at the same time for any reason, he will have to put Barnes at the point with Hairston at the 2, and Bulluck at the 3.

They can skate by Ohio with superior size, but the road gets very tough from there on out. They are actually fortunate to not be playing Michigan Friday.

FerryFor50
03-19-2012, 09:34 PM
As you may recall from the 80-page thread on Kyrie's toe, that's hardly unusual round these parts.

True. But it's also because no one has a clue about the severity. UNC is keeping it very close to their chest... probably so their opponents have to spend time scouting as if Marshall was playing.

FerryFor50
03-19-2012, 09:35 PM
Then why hasn't he played all year? Marshall played 35 mpg. White would come in one minute before the TV timeout and get yanked coming out of the timeout. Even in the State game during the tourney, Roy used a quick hook on White when Marshall was sitting with foul trouble, and went with Watts.

If White was that good, Roy would have played him the numerous times he had the opportunity, but he didn't. This weekend, Roy want have a choice. He can't play Watts 35 minutes at the point, using White for his normal spot minutes. At a minimum, White will have to play 15 minutes or so with Watts getting 25. If both of those guys are on the bench at the same time for any reason, he will have to put Barnes at the point with Hairston at the 2, and Bulluck at the 3.

They can skate by Ohio with superior size, but the road gets very tough from there on out. They are actually fortunate to not be playing Michigan Friday.

Unless Clark Kellogg's son catches fire and hits 9 threes like Brady Haslip did for Baylor. :cool:

hurleyfor3
03-19-2012, 09:38 PM
Can somebody remind me again why this thread is NOT called "The Kendall Marshall Wrist Watch"? :)

I changed it to the Kendall Marshall Wrist Vigil, in accordance with line 13, paragraph 39 of DBR Rule 573.1. But some other mod changed it back. You know us mods, we have no sense of humor (DBR Rule 2, §8, line 19).

#1Duke
03-19-2012, 09:52 PM
White had something like two turnovers in 70 minutes of play..... not bad.
He's no Marshall but I think if he plays smart he can do OK with the supporting cast he has to work with... and that's the important part, his teammates.
If I'm coaching the opposing team, I would pressure the heck out of him from minute one and try to rattle him.

slower
03-19-2012, 10:03 PM
I changed it to the Kendall Marshall Wrist Vigil, in accordance with line 13, paragraph 39 of DBR Rule 573.1. But some other mod changed it back. You know us mods, we have no sense of humor (DBR Rule 2, §8, line 19).

Ah. I've always thought there was a strict "one mod per thread" rule in effect. Can you guys ban each other? If so, that would be SO cool. :)

hurleyfor3
03-19-2012, 10:09 PM
Can you guys ban each other? If so, that would be SO cool. :)

Sometimes we do in the summer, when things get slow. Or we look for posters who probably won't show up until basketball season starts again and ban them for a couple days, cuz it's not like they're around to notice. Anyway, this counts as discussing moderation, if not outright mod-bashing, so I'd better stop before the humorless mods step in, which is pretty much everyone else except Throaty. :eek:

Wheat/"/"/"
03-19-2012, 10:10 PM
Ru-dy! Ru-dy! Ru-dy!

Exactly! Rally around the underdog time!

dukelifer
03-19-2012, 10:13 PM
White had something like two turnovers in 70 minutes of play..... not bad.
He's no Marshall but I think if he plays smart he can do OK with the supporting cast he has to work with... and that's the important part, his teammates.
If I'm coaching the opposing team, I would pressure the heck out of him from minute one and try to rattle him.

I am pretty sure UNC could play 4 on 5 and beat most teams. The reality is that anyone can run the UNC offense- well anyone but Larry Drew II.

pfrduke
03-19-2012, 10:21 PM
Can somebody remind me again why this thread is NOT called "The Kendall Marshall Wrist Watch"? :)


I changed it to the Kendall Marshall Wrist Vigil, in accordance with line 13, paragraph 39 of DBR Rule 573.1. But some other mod changed it back. You know us mods, we have no sense of humor (DBR Rule 2, §8, line 19).

I'm partial to Wrist Watch, and have made it so (of course, I'm also the one who de-vigil-ized it, so that gives you all an idea of where my sense of humor lies).

-jk
03-19-2012, 10:23 PM
Isn't a wrist watch an impermissible benefit?

-jk

hurleyfor3
03-19-2012, 10:29 PM
I'm partial to Wrist Watch, and have made it so (of course, I'm also the one who de-vigil-ized it, so that gives you all an idea of where my sense of humor lies).

Oh crap, they're here. Far be it for me to decry others' attempt at punnery, however. We take a licking and keep on ticking.

devildeac
03-19-2012, 10:35 PM
Isn't a wrist watch an impermissible benefit?

-jk


Oh crap, they're here. Far be it for me to decry others' attempt at punnery, however. We take a licking and keep on ticking.
Very timely comments, gentlemen.

devildeac
03-19-2012, 10:38 PM
I am pretty sure UNC could play 4 on 5 and beat most teams. The reality is that anyone can run the UNC offense- well anyone but Larry Drew II.

Not so sure of this. A lot of times they have to play 8 on 5 for their wins:rolleyes:.

Kedsy
03-19-2012, 10:39 PM
I am pretty sure UNC could play 4 on 5 and beat most teams. The reality is that anyone can run the UNC offense- well anyone but Larry Drew II.

In the beginning of the season, the general consensus among DBR posters was UNC was going to be very good, but if anything happened to Marshall they'd be in big trouble. Now we have a decent chance to see if we were right.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-19-2012, 10:40 PM
Then why hasn't he played all year?.....

They can skate by Ohio with superior size......

Probably the same reason that Gbinijie hasn't played much with similar stats. Doesn't mean he's not a good player, just means the coach had other options that were better.

And I'd doubt there is any skating left in the tourney, by anyone.

FerryFor50
03-19-2012, 10:43 PM
Probably the same reason that Gbinijie hasn't played much with similar stats. Doesn't mean he's not a good player, just means the coach had other options that were better.

And I'd doubt there is any skating left in the tourney, by anyone.

Uh...

Gbinije didn't play due to a glut of wings and guards ahead of him. White didn't play because he's not very good.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-19-2012, 10:56 PM
Uh...

Gbinije didn't play due to a glut of wings and guards ahead of him. White didn't play because he's not very good.

I guess we will see.
I'll Stick my neck out and say he will score 8 with a three, probably six dimes and two steals,
.

FerryFor50
03-19-2012, 10:58 PM
I guess we will see.
I'll Stick my neck out and say he will score 8 with a three, probably six dimes and two steals,
.

I think 8 is reasonable but I doubt 6 dimes... I'd say 4 dimes, 3 turnovers.

CajunDevil
03-19-2012, 11:00 PM
I think Stillman White is not that bad... Serviceable for a full game? We'll see, but he has good quickness, and has taken good care of the ball in limited minutes. However, I think it takes a unique talent to run UNC's offense in an efficient way. And, personally I don't think White is a unique talent, but this is one hell of an opportunity for him. It will be fascinating to see if he can step up.

DukeGirl4ever
03-20-2012, 08:25 AM
Get this man a shrink!


Tar Heels coach Roy Williams echoed that uncertain sentiment Monday night on his radio show.

"We can talk all we want to, 'if this' and 'if that' ... and that's just a bunch of darn (edited) waste of time. There's nothing else to talk about until we find out what the crap is going on, and then we'll talk about it."

OldPhiKap
03-20-2012, 08:35 AM
Get this man a shrink!

Golly!

weezie
03-20-2012, 09:31 AM
Doesn't ol'roy seem to be dropping more expletives this year than in previous ones? As if he's gettin' to be a ruffie-tuff stuff kind of guy....

Cuz y'know the pasty ones enjoy bashing K for his saltiness and temper, I was just wunderin' if huck is beginning to feel the strain a bit.

dukeballboy88
03-20-2012, 09:52 AM
You guys are underestimating Stillman White.

Kid is undersized but has some quickness, vision and Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

He's a little baller, and I really believe he's gonna surprise people.

I agree. Stillman is a better shooter and is faster than KM. He will get the ball up court with foot speed vs the look ahead pass. I think KM gets exposed if he doesnt play. When UNC wins with Stillman everybody will say its a system vs the player. I dont think there is that much different than Stillman and KM.

I think KM is overrated. If he would have had to face the #1 pick 3 times last year everyone would be talking about how far away he is from playing at the next level. The best thing to happen to KMs career is Kyrie didnt get to abuse him 3 times. So I look for Stillman to take unc to the title.

This is the case if KM dont play. I still think nothing is wrong with him its Roy trying to pull an old Dean Smith sandbag trick.

Bob Green
03-20-2012, 10:16 AM
Uh...

Gbinije didn't play due to a glut of wings and guards ahead of him. White didn't play because he's not very good.

Exactly who are those wings ahead of Gbinije in the rotation? I'd say Gbinije didn't play because he was a freshman and still adjusting to the college game. White looked good in the limited role he played. This weekend will be when the rubber meets the road. Personally, I hope the young man succeeds, but I'm not a Carolina hater, I just find 95% of Carolina fans intolerable.

rsvman
03-20-2012, 10:22 AM
The scaphoid is the worst bone in the wrist to injure. The blood supply to the scaphoid is provided by a single vessel, and therefore is easily compromised. Long-term outcomes from scaphoid fracture are best when the wrist and thumb are completely immobilized until the fracture heals completely. Therefore, thumb-spica casting is the standard of care.

In other words, if KM were not a basketball player but some other college kid who broke his scaphoid playing ultimate frisbee on the quad, he would be placed in a thumb-spica cast that completely immobilizes the fracture site. He would be told not to play intramural basketball. He would be told not to play any sports at all for at least six weeks.

Long-term outcomes from improperly treated scaphoid fractures are not good. This is well known because many times subtle fractures of the scaphoid are missed by inexperienced physicians. It is distressingly easy to end up with avascular necrosis of the scaphoid, which can leave a person with a life-long problem.

They may well trot KM out for another game before this is all said and done, but it's the wrong thing to do.

alteran
03-20-2012, 10:38 AM
UNC is giving every appearance that this is going to be a game-time decision, which is rather surprising.

I'm beginning to think I've heard this tune before...

FerryFor50
03-20-2012, 10:40 AM
Exactly who are those wings ahead of Gbinije in the rotation? I'd say Gbinije didn't play because he was a freshman and still adjusting to the college game. White looked good in the limited role he played. This weekend will be when the rubber meets the road. Personally, I hope the young man succeeds, but I'm not a Carolina hater, I just find 95% of Carolina fans intolerable.

Wings and guards...

Dawkins, Rivers, Curry, Thornton, Cook... there were just no minutes for Gbinije, right or wrong.

alteran
03-20-2012, 10:42 AM
Isn't a wrist watch an impermissible benefit?

-jk

Not at UNC-- if it's given to you by a tutor.

ChicagoHeel
03-20-2012, 11:01 AM
I guess we will see.
I'll Stick my neck out and say he will score 8 with a three, probably six dimes and two steals,
.

I certainly hope Wheat is right. I'm a little less optimistic and would take the under on each of those numbers. At least we can be reasonably comfortable that he will take care of the ball. He doesn't have that tendency to try to play too fast the way a lot of freshman do.

My bigger concern is defense. Marshall is not fast, but he's four inches bigger, almost forty pounds heavier, and has quick hands. I'm afraid opposing guards are either going to go up over WHite or right through him. Watts can play some D, but then we will be playing four on five on offense and you can expect defenses to collapse in on the interior.

superdave
03-20-2012, 11:35 AM
I certainly hope Wheat is right. I'm a little less optimistic and would take the under on each of those numbers. At least we can be reasonably comfortable that he will take care of the ball. He doesn't have that tendency to try to play too fast the way a lot of freshman do.

My bigger concern is defense. Marshall is not fast, but he's four inches bigger, almost forty pounds heavier, and has quick hands. I'm afraid opposing guards are either going to go up over WHite or right through him. Watts can play some D, but then we will be playing four on five on offense and you can expect defenses to collapse in on the interior.

So is your preference to split the PG duties between Watts and White, but have the offense initiated by Barnes more? Or to turn the keys over to White/Watts?

dukelifer
03-20-2012, 11:50 AM
In the beginning of the season, the general consensus among DBR posters was UNC was going to be very good, but if anything happened to Marshall they'd be in big trouble. Now we have a decent chance to see if we were right.

Based on the posts from the UNC supporters in this thread- it is clear they do not view Marshall as being critical to the team's success. White and Watts in some combination are apparently equal to Marshall or the difference is so small as to not matter. As we know- passing and floor vision are clearly overrated attributes.

Steven43
03-20-2012, 11:51 AM
I agree. Stillman is a better shooter and is faster than KM. He will get the ball up court with foot speed vs the look ahead pass. I think KM gets exposed if he doesnt play. When UNC wins with Stillman everybody will say its a system vs the player. I dont think there is that much different than Stillman and KM.

I think KM is overrated. If he would have had to face the #1 pick 3 times last year everyone would be talking about how far away he is from playing at the next level. The best thing to happen to KMs career is Kyrie didnt get to abuse him 3 times. So I look for Stillman to take unc to the title.

This is the case if KM dont play. I still think nothing is wrong with him its Roy trying to pull an old Dean Smith sandbag trick.

Are you joking, dukeballboy88, or do you really believe what you wrote in this post? You think Marshall is going to be 'exposed' if he doesn't play, UNC is going to win the national championship with Stillman White at point guard, and there is 'nothing wrong with him (Marshall)'? Umm, okay.

Well, I disagree with you on all counts. I don't see any reason to believe White is a national championship-level point guard. And Kendall Marshall is a rare talent in regard to court vision and getting the ball to the open man. He is the key to their success. Without a fully-functioning Kendall Marshall UNC will not win the national championship this year.

FerryFor50
03-20-2012, 11:55 AM
Based on the posts from the UNC supporters in this thread- it is clear they do not view Marshall as being critical to the team's success. White and Watts in some combination are apparently equal to Marshall or the difference is so small as to not matter. As we know- passing and floor vision are clearly overrated attributes.

As is hitting open shots, creating your own shot and drawing fouls on drives to the basket. Totally overrated.

In fact... since UNC fans seem to think Marshall isn't all that necessary, please let him transfer to Duke.

moonpie23
03-20-2012, 11:55 AM
there seems to be a lot of different medical opinions on here.. :(

i don't believe that roy would risk the kid's long term health, but i wonder if his dad or his peer group, coupled with his own competitive spirit will sway him to try.,..,.

coldriver10
03-20-2012, 11:57 AM
Long-term outcomes from improperly treated scaphoid fractures are not good. This is well known because many times subtle fractures of the scaphoid are missed by inexperienced physicians. It is distressingly easy to end up with avascular necrosis of the scaphoid, which can leave a person with a life-long problem.
I agree with everything you said, except I just wanted to note that scaphoid fractures can be so subtle on that they're actually not visible on x-rays...regardless of the experience of the radiologist. We always put in our reports that if there's concern for a radioocult scaphoid fracture that the patient be immobilized and return in 2 weeks or just get a MRI. I would guess his wasn't so subtle. And I agree...we would not be having this discussion if he weren't a pro-like athlete.

moonpie23
03-20-2012, 12:00 PM
SURELY he had an mri prior to surgery......no?

rsvman
03-20-2012, 12:06 PM
I agree with everything you said, except I just wanted to note that scaphoid fractures can be so subtle on that they're actually not visible on x-rays...regardless of the experience of the radiologist. We always put in our reports that if there's concern for a radioocult scaphoid fracture that the patient be immobilized and return in 2 weeks or just get a MRI. I would guess his wasn't so subtle. And I agree...we would not be having this discussion if he weren't a pro-like athlete.

Thanks for the clarification. I know the fractures can be subtle. It's not uncommon for the primary care doc to say there's no fracture and then call the patient back the next day because the radiologist found the fracture. Your addition, that they can be subtle as to be missed even by an experienced radiologist, is helpful information. The fact that these are sometimes immobilized even without a visible fracture, and the patient brought back for an MRI to make sure a fracture isn't missed, is just further testimony to the fact that scaphoid fractures are not to be taken lightly.

devildeac
03-20-2012, 12:07 PM
Exactly who are those wings ahead of Gbinije in the rotation? I'd say Gbinije didn't play because he was a freshman and still adjusting to the college game. White looked good in the limited role he played. This weekend will be when the rubber meets the road. Personally, I hope the young man succeeds, but I'm not a Carolina hater, I just find 95% of Carolina fans intolerable.

Only 95%:rolleyes:?

T-shirt my office manager saw in Atlanta this weekend:

Front: What's worse than carolina basketball?

Back: A carolina basketball fan!

She regrets not having bought it for me;).

(I'm keeping her on the payroll. For now.:))

Class of '94
03-20-2012, 12:08 PM
I'm not sure if this question falls under this tread or another one. Mods please feel free to move this if deem appropriate.

I'd love to get insight from posters on this question. If UNC does not win the tournament this year (most likely due to Kendall's injury), would Kendall, Barnes and Henson (or any combination thereof) come back to play at least one more year with the goal of trying to win a NC?

From reading other threads, there appeared to be chance that Kendall might leave early (especially since his draft stock appeared to rise due to his recent performances); and Barnes as well as Henson appear to be lottery picks at this point. Yet, if UNC falls short of winning the championship, do you think these guys will want to come back for another shot at it; and should they?

DBFAN
03-20-2012, 12:16 PM
Only 95%:rolleyes:?

T-shirt my office manager saw in Atlanta this weekend:

Front: What's worse than carolina basketball?

Back: A carolina basketball fan!

She regrets not having bought it for me;).

(I'm keeping her on the payroll. For now.:))

I've got that shirt and wore it to the First round of the tourneys one year, but a slight clarification

It says

Front: The only thing I hate more than Carolina Basketball

Back: Are Carolina Fans

devildeac
03-20-2012, 12:40 PM
I've got that shirt and wore it to the First round of the tourneys one year, but a slight clarification

It says

Front: The only thing I hate more than Carolina Basketball

Back: Are Carolina Fans

That's even better.

Got an extra?

oldnavy
03-20-2012, 12:43 PM
there seems to be a lot of different medical opinions on here.. :(

i don't believe that roy would risk the kid's long term health, but i wonder if his dad or his peer group, coupled with his own competitive spirit will sway him to try.,..,.

Let's assume he does play. How effective can he be with one hand? If he is limited to dribbling and passing with his left hand because his right wrist is braced, then it seems that he would be very easy to guard. Just overplay him to that side and force him to go right... basically take away his good hand. I just can't see how he could be effective, but maybe he will surprise us all.

Now if he is able to play with full motion in his right hand and it is not braced, then it would be the pain factor, but I cannot imagine under any circumstance that he would not be wearing a brace or cast on that wrist....

jv001
03-20-2012, 12:51 PM
Let's assume he does play. How effective can he be with one hand? If he is limited to dribbling and passing with his left hand because his right wrist is braced, then it seems that he would be very easy to guard. Just overplay him to that side and force him to go right... basically take away his good hand. I just can't see how he could be effective, but maybe he will surprise us all.

Now if he is able to play with full motion in his right hand and it is not braced, then it would be the pain factor, but I cannot imagine under any circumstance that he would not be wearing a brace or cast on that wrist....

So, I guess there is a bigger chance unc loses if marshall plays than if he doesn't? I agree most teams will take away his left hand and make him beat them going right. Seems to me his dad is not as concerned about his health & future as Kyrie's dad was for his. GoDuke!

ChicagoHeel
03-20-2012, 12:52 PM
I'm not sure if this question falls under this tread or another one. Mods please feel free to move this if deem appropriate.

I'd love to get insight from posters on this question. If UNC does not win the tournament this year (most likely due to Kendall's injury), would Kendall, Barnes and Henson (or any combination thereof) come back to play at least one more year with the goal of trying to win a NC?

From reading other threads, there appeared to be chance that Kendall might leave early (especially since his draft stock appeared to rise due to his recent performances); and Barnes as well as Henson appear to be lottery picks at this point. Yet, if UNC falls short of winning the championship, do you think these guys will want to come back for another shot at it; and should they?

I don't think there is any way of knowing. Barnes indicated that if we won it all, he would go pro. But who knows what that means if we get eliminated prior to the Final Four. Both Barnes and Marshall talk about wanting to leave a legacy, or be "legendary" as KM puts it. I hope that means they want to stay at UNC and break as many records as possible. My guess is that Barnes and Henson are gone; Marshall's chances of staying I'd put at 50-50.

Everyone back with a vastly improved McAdoo filling the Zeller void and a genuine back-up point guard in Marcus Paige- seems like too much to ask for.

dukedoc
03-20-2012, 12:58 PM
Now if he is able to play with full motion in his right hand and it is not braced, then it would be the pain factor, but I cannot imagine under any circumstance that he would not be wearing a brace or cast on that wrist....

If he weren't braced, he would be at a greatly increased risk of reinjury and worsening the damage already done. Even with a brace he would be at significant risk. The pain medications he would likely need to make dribbling with that hand tolerable would probably cloud his sensorium and make him less effective in other ways. I honestly don't see a way he'll come back and be effective. That said, if he were to somehow do this effectively and become some sort of folk hero, I would be happy for him. He's a good kid. If he were my kid, though, I would not let him play, period.

coldriver10
03-20-2012, 01:17 PM
SURELY he had an mri prior to surgery......no?
Well, since they knew the diagnosis immediately following the game, it had to have been seen on x-ray. That's what I was referring to.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-20-2012, 01:29 PM
Anyone think that this could be a very interesting weekend for ACC basketball?

If NC State could beat Kansas and UNC beats Ohio with or without Marshall, it sets up an fantastic scenario of UNC/NCSU for a trip to the Final Four. Granted, State has an uphill battle v. Kansas, but they are clearly peaking at the right time this season and playing with supreme confidence. After getting hosed against UNC earlier in the year, don't you think they would go full-bore against a UNC with either a backup PG or a hobbled one?

I'd LOVE to see the Pack back in the Final Four - makes the ACC stronger again. If they were to knock of the Tar Heels to get there - all the better!

At least it gives me something to root for this weekend other than #1 seed upsets.

#1Duke
03-20-2012, 01:32 PM
I have not been overly impressed with the performance of Kansas lately. I'll pick State to win and UNC to beat Ohio without Marshall.
I think we'll get to see UNC/State matchup one more time this year.

oldnavy
03-20-2012, 01:48 PM
If he weren't braced, he would be at a greatly increased risk of reinjury and worsening the damage already done. Even with a brace he would be at significant risk. The pain medications he would likely need to make dribbling with that hand tolerable would probably cloud his sensorium and make him less effective in other ways. I honestly don't see a way he'll come back and be effective. That said, if he were to somehow do this effectively and become some sort of folk hero, I would be happy for him. He's a good kid. If he were my kid, though, I would not let him play, period.

Yea any narcotic pain med would have CNS side effects like drowsiness, etc... an anti-inflamatory would have little to zero CNS effect, but would probably not be enough to cover the pain (depends on KM's pain threshold), and any regional block would numb his hand and that wouldn't work at all.

So the only way I can see him playing is with a brace and enduring a fair amount of pain.... not sure a KM limited like that would be better than the alternatives... in fact I think he would be worse for the team, but who knows.

UrinalCake
03-20-2012, 02:02 PM
I'd love to get insight from posters on this question. If UNC does not win the tournament this year (most likely due to Kendall's injury), would Kendall, Barnes and Henson (or any combination thereof) come back to play at least one more year with the goal of trying to win a NC?

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. At this point it's all speculation of course. If they were to lose, I imagine their first instinct will be that they'll want to return and have another shot at it after being robbed by Marshall's injury (not to mention losing Strickland and McDonald). But after the dust settles, Barnes and Henson don't really have anything left to prove at the college level. They could have left LAST year and been lottery picks. By staying they're just losing a year that they could be earning an NBA salary. Zeller will be gone. Maybe it's just wishful thinking but I think they'll both go.

As for Marshall, I think it's possible that this injury forces him to stay. If he can't participate in the pre-draft stuff or work out for teams, that could hurt. He's shown enough that someone will probably draft him anyways, and there aren't many point guards this year, so I guess Chicago Heel's estimate of a 50-50 chance of him leaving is probably a good one.

CDu
03-20-2012, 02:10 PM
I don't think there is any way of knowing. Barnes indicated that if we won it all, he would go pro. But who knows what that means if we get eliminated prior to the Final Four. Both Barnes and Marshall talk about wanting to leave a legacy, or be "legendary" as KM puts it. I hope that means they want to stay at UNC and break as many records as possible. My guess is that Barnes and Henson are gone; Marshall's chances of staying I'd put at 50-50.

Everyone back with a vastly improved McAdoo filling the Zeller void and a genuine back-up point guard in Marcus Paige- seems like too much to ask for.

I would agree with you on Barnes and Henson. I think they're lottery picks now, and that's tough to pass up (certainly tough to pass up twice). Marshall is a different animal, in that he could come back and be the star on the team next year and maybe become a legendary player (is 15 points and 10 assists possible?). Where it gets interesting is Ford's ranking of McAdoo. If he's really a mid/high lottery pick right now, I can't imagine sticking around and risking getting exposed on a presumably weaker UNC team next year.

If UNC loses four starters and McAdoo to the draft, it'll be an interesting year next year for the Heels. They'd have decent guards/wings, but they'd be really young and shallow inside. Getting McAdoo and Marshall to return is a big key (assuming Barnes and Henson do join Zeller).

#1Duke
03-20-2012, 02:19 PM
Just watched an interview with Roy on ESPN. Seems he is going with White/Watts and said " I am preparing to play 100% without Marshall".

He mentioned that White/Watts have filled the roll during the season and they will be practicing hard all week. He joked that other than those two, he could have Zeller bring the ball down and Henson offered to do the job too.
He offered no new information on Marshall and answered all questions concerning him with " I just don't know".

So, it looks like we'll see how White and Watts hold up for a full game.

yancem
03-20-2012, 02:28 PM
The impact of Marshall's injury on his draft status is very interesting. On the one hand the injury could hurt his status this year because he might not be 100% at the draft camps but on the other hand returning next year risks another injury or if unc is a weaker team due to other early entries, his game could be viewed under greater scrutiny. In other words, this injury could scare him into declaring. A unc team with only McAdoo as a legitimate big could negatively impact his assist number. Also, being called on to be more of a scorer could magnify some of his physical shortcoming. Then again, he could show a marked improvement in his outside shot and still get plenty of assists because a small unc team is forced to speed up the pace of play even more to negate their lack of size. And his biggest asset is his long (and accurate) fast break passes.

As for Barnes and Henson, returning just for the chance to win it all might seem like a bad bet after seeing all of the injuries that unc's guards have experience this year. Not only could one injury derail their title hopes (like Marshall's may this year) but could impact their own draft stock if they end up being the one injured. I think last years decision was partially based on trying to win a title and if it doesn't work out this year would you want to take the same gamble again?

Kedsy
03-20-2012, 02:38 PM
If UNC loses four starters and McAdoo to the draft, it'll be an interesting year next year for the Heels.

Has there been talk of McAdoo coming out? I hadn't heard that. It seems crazy.

CDu
03-20-2012, 02:44 PM
Has there been talk of McAdoo coming out? I hadn't heard that. It seems crazy.

I'm just going by where he's currently being rated on draft sites (#7 according to Chad Ford). I have no idea whether he'd actually go pro. But typically Williams has recommended that lottery picks take the money and run when they are lottery picks. And it seems like an especially good idea in the case of McAdoo, who seems undersized for his NBA position (PF) and lacking in any one particular skill of note.

DukeGirl4ever
03-20-2012, 02:44 PM
Has there been talk of McAdoo coming out? I hadn't heard that. It seems crazy.

I can't remember which mock draft, but I saw him on one of them as high as 6th. (And this was on Sunday).
I'll see if I can find it again. It might have been Hoops Hype or something like that.

This one has him 11th:
http://www.mynbadraft.com/2012-NBA-Mock-Draft

Ah, found it.
He is listed as 7th on Chad Ford's Big Board:
http://espn.go.com/nba/draft

greybeard
03-20-2012, 02:45 PM
No surprises here. Playing with this type of injury in my view is ill advised. Big time sports, guys are supposed to play hurt; in the pros, it is all but demanded (actually, the "all but" might be incorrect). But, people need to take responsibility for their own well being, and being well in this life is far from easy. Playing with this type of injury makes it all too easy to fail to stand up against the pressures sports present, when you know that you don't belong on the court.

More importantly, when a college coach sends a student-athlete who IS NOT GETTING PAID out on the floor with a broken wrist, he better freakin not ever cry again on TV because "he is so sad for the kids." Hypocracy by any other name stinks.

freedevil
03-20-2012, 02:49 PM
I can't remember which mock draft, but I saw him on one of them as high as 6th. (And this was on Sunday).
I'll see if I can find it again. It might have been Hoops Hype or something like that.

If a Duke freshmen were ranked that high in a mock draft, and he returned to school, the Carolina folks would be talking about how K "manipulates" players to return (I'm sure they'd use even harsher language). Somehow, when UNC players return, it's because they have the righteous goal of becoming "legends."

As for this thread, I hope Kendall Marshall gets healthy and can play. That UNC loses with him playing well. And that they all go pro. Go Duke.

UrinalCake
03-20-2012, 03:38 PM
As for this thread, I hope Kendall Marshall gets healthy and can play. That UNC loses with him playing well. And that they all go pro. Go Duke.

Here's what's going to happen: Stillman White comes in and passes for 20 assists, only UNC still loses. As a result, he, Henson, Barnes, Marshall, and McAdoo all go pro. Kentucky wins it all (ugh) but that prompts Calipari to take the Knicks job before the title is vacated. As a result, Alex Poythress and Nerlens Noel are released from their letters of intent and decide to come to Duke instead, along with Shabazz Muhammad. Austin and Seth agree to pay their own way in order to make room. UNC goes into a tailspin that makes 8-20 look like a dream season, and Duke wins the next four titles as their monster class of 2012 inexplicably stays together for four years.

It could happen, right?

Lid
03-20-2012, 03:48 PM
Here's what's going to happen: Stillman White comes in and passes for 20 assists, only UNC still loses. As a result, he, Henson, Barnes, Marshall, and McAdoo all go pro. Kentucky wins it all (ugh) but that prompts Calipari to take the Knicks job before the title is vacated. As a result, Alex Poythress and Nerlens Noel are released from their letters of intent and decide to come to Duke instead, along with Shabazz Muhammad. Austin and Seth agree to pay their own way in order to make room. UNC goes into a tailspin that makes 8-20 look like a dream season, and Duke wins the next four titles as their monster class of 2012 inexplicably stays together for four years.

It could happen, right?

It hasn't not happened yet!

moonpie23
03-20-2012, 03:52 PM
He offered no new information on Marshall and answered all questions concerning him with " I just don't know".




He's playing.....

oldnavy
03-20-2012, 05:01 PM
He's playing.....

Again, even if he does play, how on earth can anyone expect him to be 100%?? I think putting him on the floor would be too risky both as far as KM's future goes AND with winning this particular game. There is NO WAY he can be effective using only his left hand... he is good, but he ain't that good. Any decent defender would be able to take him completely out of his game by totally overplaying his left side forcing him to dribble and pass with his broken hand....

Wheat/"/"/"
03-20-2012, 05:21 PM
Based on the posts from the UNC supporters in this thread- it is clear they do not view Marshall as being critical to the team's success. White and Watts in some combination are apparently equal to Marshall or the difference is so small as to not matter. As we know- passing and floor vision are clearly overrated attributes.

Nobody has said Watts and White are Kendall's "equal".

Kendall is a great PG. One of the best to ever play in the ACC.

What I'm saying is White is a pretty good little player, and this is a team game.

Are they as strong with White and Watts at the point? Easy answer,...no.

Can they still be a good team and continue to win? I think so.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-20-2012, 05:23 PM
He's playing.....

I doubt it.

oldnavy
03-20-2012, 05:28 PM
Nobody has said Watts and White are Kendall's "equal".

Kendall is a great PG. One of the best to ever play in the ACC.

What I'm saying is White is a pretty good little player, and this is a team game.

Are they as strong with White and Watts at the point? Easy answer,...no.

Can they still be a good team and continue to win? I think so.

Agree. No need to panic. You still have 3 All ACC front court players, and a very good 6th man in McAdoo.... Makes the road a little more interesting, but not a done deal at all....

Duvall
03-20-2012, 05:32 PM
Nobody has said Watts and White are Kendall's "equal".

Kendall is a great PG. One of the best to ever play in the ACC.

What I'm saying is White is a pretty good little player, and this is a team game.

Are they as strong with White and Watts at the point? Easy answer,...no.

Can they still be a good team and continue to win? I think so.

Win against who? I'm not sure UNC is better than teams like Kansas and Ohio State *with* Marshall. Without him, the odds get much longer.

oldnavy
03-20-2012, 05:42 PM
Win against who? I'm not sure UNC is better than teams like Kansas and Ohio State *with* Marshall. Without him, the odds get much longer.

I think that with the way Marshall had began playing the last few games UNC was playing as well as anyone in the nation including UK. Marshall had become a bit of a scorer which made the team MUCH more difficult to guard.

#1Duke
03-20-2012, 06:01 PM
I think that with the way Marshall had began playing the last few games UNC was playing as well as anyone in the nation including UK. Marshall had become a bit of a scorer which made the team MUCH more difficult to guard.

I agree 100%. Marshall was hitting his stride as a real scorer and someone you could not leave to go help out on a double team.

BUT, I don't think most people are giving White a chance. It's been said here many times that "he is no Marshall" and he isn't but he's not exactly chopped liver either.

Coming out of HS he was known for being a very good shooter and as someone who hangs onto the ball with minimal turnovers. I think the turnover issue is the most important one. If White can hold onto the ball and get it to the scorers (good passes not great passes) I think the Heels do "OK"... at least for the next game and perhaps for Kansas or State.

As many fast break points on thread the needle passes? NO! He'll have to "grind it out".... good solid play vs. flash and excitement.