PDA

View Full Version : NBA Early Entries: non-Duke



Pages : [1] 2

tommy
03-18-2012, 07:45 PM
Zags has freshman Mo Harkless of St. John's ready to go. I don't like kids going after one year, but that's the rule, and he sure looked the part against us in January. Kid was super.

http://www.zagsblog.com/2012/03/18/st-johns-harkless-heading-to-the-nba/#more-69862

1 24 90
03-18-2012, 08:19 PM
Sorry no link but I saw on espn the other day that Malik Wayns from Villanova declared. Really? Seriously?

Olympic Fan
03-19-2012, 03:40 PM
Start the stampede -- Moe Harkless of St. John's just announced that he was putting his name into the draft:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/7709890/moe-harkless-leaving-st-john-red-storm-early-nba-draft

The 6-8 freshman averaged 15.5 points and 8.6 rebounds for th Red Storm. He hd 30 points and 13 rebounds against Duke on Jan. 28 -- the game that got Coach K so upset.

I THINK he's the first underclassman to declare ... but you know there will be others. I thought I'd start this thread to keep up with the parade -- although I think it would be a good idea to use a diffrent thread to keep up with discussion of possible Duke defections. Use this one for everybody else.

FWIW, there is a note in the ESPN rumors section (can't link, it's member's only) in which Chad Ford -- ESPN's draft expert -- projects five UNC players as potential lottery picks. Actually his top 100 only has four: No. 5 Harrison Barnes, No. 7 James Michael McAdoo (how about that!), No. 11 Tyler Zeller and No. 14 John Henson (is 14 still lottery?). He also has Kendall Marshall at No. 24, but says his NCAA performance has moved him up -- how much his injury sets him back, I don't claim to kniow.

One final note: the NCAA has moved up its date for declaring and withdrawing. All decisions are final as of the first day of the spring signing period -- this year that/s April 11. So se ought to have a lot of action in the next three week.

Dev11
03-19-2012, 04:22 PM
No. 7 James Michael McAdoo (how about that!), ... No. 14 John Henson (is 14 still lottery?)

I don't expect McAdoo to leave. It seems similar to Mason being a lottery pick after his first year, and McAdoo knows he'll get a ton of touches next year without Henson and Zeller around.

And yep, 14 is still lottery. 16 playoff teams, 14 lottery. It is a *somewhat* arbitrary distinction, but generally read "lottery" as "top half of the first round."

superdave
03-19-2012, 04:31 PM
I don't expect McAdoo to leave. It seems similar to Mason being a lottery pick after his first year, and McAdoo knows he'll get a ton of touches next year without Henson and Zeller around.

And yep, 14 is still lottery. 16 playoff teams, 14 lottery. It is a *somewhat* arbitrary distinction, but generally read "lottery" as "top half of the first round."

Brandon Wright left. Ed Davis left. I suspect if McAdoo were projected a little higher than he is right now, he'd yield to temptation. I also suspect his decision will depend on Marshall's decision to stay or declare. Why would you want to stay and have Marcus Paige as your point guard?

Take the $ and run, McAdoo!

CDu
03-19-2012, 04:43 PM
Brandon Wright left. Ed Davis left. I suspect if McAdoo were projected a little higher than he is right now, he'd yield to temptation. I also suspect his decision will depend on Marshall's decision to stay or declare. Why would you want to stay and have Marcus Paige as your point guard?

Take the $ and run, McAdoo!

Those guys were both starters who averaged double-figure points. McAdoo is a rotation player who has shown little of his potential.

Frankly, it would shock me if McAdoo was a lottery pick right now. If he is, then Williams has historically recommended to his lottery picks to go pro (Barnes chose against it last year on his own).

superdave
03-19-2012, 05:15 PM
Those guys were both starters who averaged double-figure points. McAdoo is a rotation player who has shown little of his potential.

Frankly, it would shock me if McAdoo was a lottery pick right now. If he is, then Williams has historically recommended to his lottery picks to go pro (Barnes chose against it last year on his own).

True. But McAdoo is currently projected as a top 10 pick. He's #7 on Chad Ford's board and if he's truly that highly regarded, he's crazy to stay. At least that's my opinion. If he was not playing behind Henson and Zeller he'd probably have had a nice season.

In 15.7 minutes, he averaged 5.8 and 3.9. He only shot 41% from the field. But his last few games with Henson out he put up 11 and 7.

The issue is he's compared to the other forwards who are likely to go pro - Terrence Ross, Perry Jones, Quincy Miller, Cody Zeller, Terrence Jones, etc. All have their issues. I would not dare to sort out which one of them I'd take with the 8th pick at this point if I needed a forward. I think you could watch a lot of film and measure a lot of things, and you would not find that much difference in these kids vs. McAdoo. It's more art than science.

Super "Upside" Dave

Dev11
03-19-2012, 05:26 PM
It's more art than science.

Super "Upside" Dave

But, but, but Jay Bilas has a mathematical formula involving complex calculations such as "freakishness" and "motor" that he uses to make his board! It must be science!

tommy
03-21-2012, 06:53 PM
Iowa State's Royce White is going pro. He looked like a beast in the tournament. He's had some personal issues, that he appears to have moved past. But one kinda odd thing with him is the deathly fear of flying that he still suffers from. Wonder how that will factor in to his draft position.

Also, Michigan's terrific freshman point guard Trey Burke is "exploring his options," sending paperwork around, that sort of thing. Losing him after only one year would be a real blow to the Wolverines. And to Mitch McGary . . .

Dukehky
03-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Was Ed Davis a starter?

I don't think McAdoo is probably going to stay, I also don't really see Henson's appeal to NBA teams, but they all know more than I do. He's still kind of an offensive liability even though he's gotten exponentially better. It took years for Wright to start seeing the floor and being productive and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that he added on a lot of pounds, and I just don't see Henson being able to do that. Sure he's a shot blocker from the help side, but NBA power fowards should be able to power right through him. Especially with Marshall's injury, if that limits UNC's tournament (no Final Four) I could absolutely see Henson and even Barnes to a certain extent staying to complete some "unfinished business" as Lawson and Ellington did. I certainly hope that's not the case, but who knows. Again, I don't really see Henson's early/mid-first round appeal, he's a real project for the strength coaches in the NBA.

Edouble
03-21-2012, 08:30 PM
Those guys were both starters who averaged double-figure points. McAdoo is a rotation player who has shown little of his potential.

Frankly, it would shock me if McAdoo was a lottery pick right now. If he is, then Williams has historically recommended to his lottery picks to go pro (Barnes chose against it last year on his own).

I thought the same thing. A better example would be Marvin Williams.

JasonEvans
03-21-2012, 10:15 PM
I thought the same thing. A better example would be Marvin Williams.

Don't say that name around Hawks fans.

I am serious.

Argh!! I am a Hawks fan and you said it around me! My head is about to explode!!?!?!?!

-Jason "we don't need Chris Paul or Deron Williams!! We've got the worst starting SF in the NBA instead!!" Evans

superdave
03-22-2012, 09:27 AM
Don't say that name around Hawks fans.

I am serious.

Argh!! I am a Hawks fan and you said it around me! My head is about to explode!!?!?!?!

-Jason "we don't need Chris Paul or Deron Williams!! We've got the worst starting SF in the NBA instead!!" Evans

I guess we should not bring up Marvin Williams' contract either!

Actually, I wish we could keep inflating the awesomeness of Unc guys with pro scouts and GMs so there's such high demand for them that no good Unc player ever stays beyond a season in Chapel Hill.

superdave
03-22-2012, 09:29 AM
Was Ed Davis a starter?

I don't think McAdoo is probably going to stay, I also don't really see Henson's appeal to NBA teams, but they all know more than I do. He's still kind of an offensive liability even though he's gotten exponentially better. It took years for Wright to start seeing the floor and being productive and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that he added on a lot of pounds, and I just don't see Henson being able to do that. Sure he's a shot blocker from the help side, but NBA power fowards should be able to power right through him. Especially with Marshall's injury, if that limits UNC's tournament (no Final Four) I could absolutely see Henson and even Barnes to a certain extent staying to complete some "unfinished business" as Lawson and Ellington did. I certainly hope that's not the case, but who knows. Again, I don't really see Henson's early/mid-first round appeal, he's a real project for the strength coaches in the NBA.

Ed Davis started 23/23 games his sophomore season. Then he broke something or another and missed the last few games.

Matches
03-22-2012, 10:19 AM
True. But McAdoo is currently projected as a top 10 pick. He's #7 on Chad Ford's board and if he's truly that highly regarded, he's crazy to stay. At least that's my opinion. If he was not playing behind Henson and Zeller he'd probably have had a nice season.


If he's truly #7 he should go. Ed Davis frankly made the wrong decision by returning for his sophomore season. He went from Top 5 to mid-teens, and it's not as if all the fun of playing for the 2010 Heels made up for it.

CDu
03-22-2012, 11:14 AM
If he's truly #7 he should go. Ed Davis frankly made the wrong decision by returning for his sophomore season. He went from Top 5 to mid-teens, and it's not as if all the fun of playing for the 2010 Heels made up for it.

Yup. The common thought from the UNC side is that Williams recommends that top-10 picks (i.e., guaranteed lottery guys) go pro rather than risk their stock by coming back for another season. Only Harrrison Barnes has eschewed that recommendation in recent memory. So if McAdoo is in fact a top-10 pick, I'd expect Williams to advise him to go pro. Whether McAdoo does or not remains to be seen. It still amazes me that McAdoo's stock could be that high, but I guess I'm not an NBA GM.

superdave
03-22-2012, 12:48 PM
Yup. The common thought from the UNC side is that Williams recommends that top-10 picks (i.e., guaranteed lottery guys) go pro rather than risk their stock by coming back for another season. Only Harrrison Barnes has eschewed that recommendation in recent memory. So if McAdoo is in fact a top-10 pick, I'd expect Williams to advise him to go pro. Whether McAdoo does or not remains to be seen. It still amazes me that McAdoo's stock could be that high, but I guess I'm not an NBA GM.

Simply put - the other comparable forwards likely in this year's draft, Perry Jones, Terrence Jones, are straight up knuckleheads. There's every reason to think that McAdoo is as good as those guys and he seems like a really good kid. Even if he does play in an ugly shade of blue and somehow wanted to play for a coach who is a knucklehead.

MChambers
03-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Simply put - the other comparable forwards likely in this year's draft, Perry Jones, Terrence Jones, are straight up knuckleheads. There's every reason to think that McAdoo is as good as those guys and he seems like a really good kid. Even if he does play in an ugly shade of blue and somehow wanted to play for a coach who is a knucklehead.

Are you saying he'd leave to keep up with the Joneses?

gam7
03-22-2012, 04:12 PM
Ed Davis started 23/23 games his sophomore season. Then he broke something or another and missed the last few games.

Take a wild guess as to what he broke.

Wrists : UNC :: Feet : Duke

A-Tex Devil
03-22-2012, 04:22 PM
J'Covan Brown is leaving. Makes sense, as he is probably going to graduate in May, has a kid, and his draft stock is pretty level at mid-second round. He's a potential instant offense off the bench for an NBA team, but, at least initially, more likely playing in Europe a la a kid like Jacob Pullen, who he compares favorably too.

Myck Kabongo, amazingly, is thinking about declaring. Even more amazingly, since this draft is bereft of point guards, he may actually be a first round pick. The kid has shown some talent, but struggled mightily as a freshman on defense and with his shooting. Worse players have gone pro. If Duke or UNC ever want to complain about kids leaving early, they just need to look over at Rick Barnes whose probably had the worst of it. Every single kid from the Toronto/Findlay Prep pipeline has been one and done if Kabongo leaves.

superdave
03-22-2012, 04:25 PM
J'Covan Brown is leaving. Makes sense, as he is probably going to graduate in May, has a kid, and his draft stock is pretty level at mid-second round. He's a potential instant offense off the bench for an NBA team, but, at least initially, more likely playing in Europe a la a kid like Jacob Pullen, who he compares favorably too.

Myck Kabongo, amazingly, is thinking about declaring. Even more amazingly, since this draft is bereft of point guards, he may actually be a first round pick. The kid has shown some talent, but struggled mightily as a freshman on defense and with his shooting. Worse players have gone pro. If Duke or UNC ever want to complain about kids leaving early, they just need to look over at Rick Barnes whose probably had the worst of it. Every single kid from the Toronto/Findlay Prep pipeline has been one and done if Kabongo leaves.

Saw a little of Myck this year. Not bad, but not ready to go.

Now, if Trey Burke declares, that's a guy who could have an awesome couple of workouts and leap into the lottery. He was gooo-oood for Michigan the 2nd half of the season.

Dukehky
03-22-2012, 05:05 PM
Ed Davis started 23/23 games his sophomore season. Then he broke something or another and missed the last few games.

I was thinking about the 08-09 championship season, my bad, I actually remember when he broke his wrist. I believe it was around half-time of the Duke-Carolina game in 2010 in Chapel Hill.

crimsonandblue
03-22-2012, 06:20 PM
Saw a little of Myck this year. Not bad, but not ready to go.

Now, if Trey Burke declares, that's a guy who could have an awesome couple of workouts and leap into the lottery. He was gooo-oood for Michigan the 2nd half of the season.

Well, Burke was good until the last couple games of the year (both losses to tOSU and Ohio) in which he went a combined 6 for 26 from the field and 2 for 16 from 3. He's also right around 6'. Just hard to imagine him going lottery . . .

Newton_14
03-22-2012, 06:39 PM
McAdoo is a rotation player who has shown little of his potential.



Yes, and I believe I predicted that would happen last summer and fall, but was left on an island and drowned out by those who said he would be high impact from day 1. cough cough, :)

And in fairness CDu, I have no memory at all of what your predictions were for McAdoo, so not poking at you here, it just happened to be you who served me the fastball down the middle I was sitting on so I had to swing!:D

Sorry, I normally don't crow over predictions, just taking advantage of being right for once!:cool:

Now, back to your regular programming of kids with no chance in hell of being drafted giving up their college careers (There are 60 draft spots, last year over 90 underclassmen declared)

bradvinjack
03-22-2012, 06:53 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/7723624/2012-nba-draft-kentucky-wildcats-michael-kidd-gilchrist-enter-draft-source-says

Kidd-Gilchrist to enter the draft per ESPN. No shocker there though.

CDu
03-22-2012, 10:12 PM
Yes, and I believe I predicted that would happen last summer and fall, but was left on an island and drowned out by those who said he would be high impact from day 1. cough cough, :)

And in fairness CDu, I have no memory at all of what your predictions were for McAdoo, so not poking at you here, it just happened to be you who served me the fastball down the middle I was sitting on so I had to swing!:D

Sorry, I normally don't crow over predictions, just taking advantage of being right for once!:cool:

Now, back to your regular programming of kids with no chance in hell of being drafted giving up their college careers (There are 60 draft spots, last year over 90 underclassmen declared)

No problem here. I can also lay claim to being on the right side of the equation. I wasn't terribly impressed with his loading up on breakaway dunks in an all star game with no defense, and said so on these boards.

tommy
03-27-2012, 02:09 AM
Syracuse soph Dion Waiters is in, as is Mississippi State jumbo Renardo Sidney. Waiters is a first rounder. Sidney, not so much.

moonpie23
03-28-2012, 01:14 PM
don't want to monger, but i've had 3 tweets that action is taking place as i type......anyone got the inside low-low?

superdave
03-28-2012, 01:17 PM
don't want to monger, but i've had 3 tweets that action is taking place as i type......anyone got the inside low-low?

Please post them in here!

CDu
03-28-2012, 01:27 PM
A quick look at the open bball forum on IC doesn't show anything definite. But rumors are spreading that it may be all three today/soon. McAdoo's family has officially said he's considering his options as well. That's not terribly informative. But we can always hope.

gumbomoop
03-28-2012, 01:43 PM
A quick look at the open bball forum on IC doesn't show anything definite. But rumors are spreading that it may be all three today/soon. McAdoo's family has officially said he's considering his options as well. That's not terribly informative. But we can always hope.

Shoot, let's guess it's either all 4 stay or all 4 leave. Roll the dice. Preseason overwhelming #1 or preseason NIT.

All 4 leave, Heels still have lots of good wingers ready to shine, a promising young PG to share that spot with combo Dex. Bigs are all projects for 2012-'13, so Heels live and die by the 3.

Faison1
03-28-2012, 01:45 PM
A quick look at the open bball forum on IC doesn't show anything definite. But rumors are spreading that it may be all three today/soon. McAdoo's family has officially said he's considering his options as well. That's not terribly informative. But we can always hope.

What's a late first round pick make over 3 years? If it's anywhere in the $4-6mm mark, I'd say it's tough to turn that down.

Let's say you make $6mm over 3 years, and your head is screwed on straight. After taxes and management fees, it's half. So, as a 25-26 year old, you have a base of $3mm to work with going forward. That would open a lot of possibilites in regards to making career type decisions. Again, as long as you are thinking clearly.

CDu
03-28-2012, 01:57 PM
What's a late first round pick make over 3 years? If it's anywhere in the $4-6mm mark, I'd say it's tough to turn that down.

Let's say you make $6mm over 3 years, and your head is screwed on straight. After taxes and management fees, it's half. So, as a 25-26 year old, you have a base of $3mm to work with going forward. That would open a lot of possibilites in regards to making career type decisions. Again, as long as you are thinking clearly.

McAdoo won't go in the late 1st round. If he goes, he's apparently going to be a lottery pick.

As for the hypothetical late 1st round pick, I'm guessing it's around $2-2.5 million over 2 years (I believe the new rules cut guaranteed contracts to 2 years but the team can still extend you if they want to do so). Still really good money.

However, the concern with being projected as a late 1st round pick is that you may slip to the 2nd round. Slipping to the 2nd round means you don't have a guaranteed contract and could easily end up overseas or in the D-League with a tough road to climb to make it to the NBA.

yancem
03-28-2012, 01:58 PM
A quick look at the open bball forum on IC doesn't show anything definite. But rumors are spreading that it may be all three today/soon. McAdoo's family has officially said he's considering his options as well. That's not terribly informative. But we can always hope.

If Barnes, Henson and Marshall all declare, that would put McAdoo in a pretty interesting position. On the one hand, with those guys gone, he would have the opportunity to be the main guy and get all the minutes and shots he could want. On the other hand he would be surrounded by young and less talented front court players while the team would be deep and experienced on the perimeter. This could force Ol'Roy to go small and to him having to play significant minutes at the 5, which would be less than ideal. Depending on how Hubert, Johnson and James develop (and I wouldn't expect too much), unc's best line-up could be McAdoo, Bullock, Hairston, Leslie and Strickland. That isn't your traditional unc line-up. They could certainly win a lot of games but would struggle against bigger teams. McAdoo guarding Reggie Johnson would be less than ideal!

Billy Dat
03-28-2012, 02:01 PM
Everything I am reading shows Zeller, Barnes, Henson, McAdoo and Marshall being drafted in the top 20. I have seen Mason listed as an end of first rounder with Rivers slated in the 15-25 range.

With any luck, all 4 UNC underclassmen jet and Mason stays!

Matches
03-28-2012, 02:02 PM
McAdoo's dad apparently told IC that JMM is weighing his options but is likely to return to UNC. Not the smartest decision IMO if he really is a top 5 pick (see Barnes, Harrison or Davis, Ed) but he may really value being "the man" for UNC next year if the others leave.

CDu
03-28-2012, 02:17 PM
If Barnes, Henson and Marshall all declare, that would put McAdoo in a pretty interesting position. On the one hand, with those guys gone, he would have the opportunity to be the main guy and get all the minutes and shots he could want. On the other hand he would be surrounded by young and less talented front court players while the team would be deep and experienced on the perimeter. This could force Ol'Roy to go small and to him having to play significant minutes at the 5, which would be less than ideal. Depending on how Hubert, Johnson and James develop (and I wouldn't expect too much), unc's best line-up could be McAdoo, Bullock, Hairston, Leslie and Strickland. That isn't your traditional unc line-up. They could certainly win a lot of games but would struggle against bigger teams. McAdoo guarding Reggie Johnson would be less than ideal!

I think having Barnes, Henson, and Marshall all go pro would make staying a bad idea for McAdoo. He's projected to go in the mid lottery. I can't imagine a scenario in which he improves upon that stock by coming back and playing for a lesser UNC team. Right now, he's got the strong play in the NCAA tournament and the lure of potential. Even if he plays pretty well next year I'm not sure he'll dramatically boost his stock. And if he struggles, his stock will fall.

That said, he may want the chance to be a star in college rather than a backup. So who knows?

BlueDevilBrowns
03-28-2012, 02:19 PM
If Barnes, Henson and Marshall all declare, that would put McAdoo in a pretty interesting position. On the one hand, with those guys gone, he would have the opportunity to be the main guy and get all the minutes and shots he could want. On the other hand he would be surrounded by young and less talented front court players while the team would be deep and experienced on the perimeter. This could force Ol'Roy to go small and to him having to play significant minutes at the 5, which would be less than ideal. Depending on how Hubert, Johnson and James develop (and I wouldn't expect too much), unc's best line-up could be McAdoo, Bullock, Hairston, Leslie and Strickland. That isn't your traditional unc line-up. They could certainly win a lot of games but would struggle against bigger teams. McAdoo guarding Reggie Johnson would be less than ideal!

IF McAdoo and/or Henson leave, I would have to think that Oriaki(spellcheck) would be the favorite to come in and fill the 4/5 slot. Who knows, maybe even Nerlins would reconsider UNC at that point with all of the potential frontcourt minutes available?

Also, I think it would interesting to see how Ol Roy adapts his team to all of the depth he will have in the backcourt while having potentially much less talent/depth up-front. Roy isn't exactly known for his flexibility.

Billy Dat
03-28-2012, 02:21 PM
I think having Barnes, Henson, and Marshall all go pro would make staying a bad idea for McAdoo. He's projected to go in the mid lottery. I can't imagine a scenario in which he improves upon that stock by coming back and playing for a lesser UNC team. Right now, he's got the strong play in the NCAA tournament and the lure of potential. Even if he plays pretty well next year I'm not sure he'll dramatically boost his stock. And if he struggles, his stock will fall.

That said, he may want the chance to be a star in college rather than a backup. So who knows?

I think this is right on...the feeling I am getting, purely NBA draft-wise, is that the whole of the UNC 5 is greater than the sum of its parts. As many are saying, Marshall missing the last 2 rounds actually gave him a huge draft boost because they team was so much better when he played. With a weak PG class, he should definitely go. Who knows how Henson would be with Zeller gone - he should go. Barnes seems like he needs all of the above to look his best - he should go...and McAdoo, based on his first half against Kansas alone (and the Ed Davis/Josh McRoberts examples), should go.

Nugget
03-28-2012, 02:36 PM
According to Chad Ford's board at ESPN, McAdoo would go at #7 (under his assumption that Cody Zeller comes out, at #6, which I'm guessing probably won't happen). Moreover, he's got Bradley Beal at #3 and Andre Drummond at #5. It's not too hard to envision McAdoo passing Drummond over in the workouts, and NBA teams favoring a big man like McAdoo over a guy like Beal, who is a good player, but a bit undersized to be a true standout SG, and doesn't have PG skills. Under that scenario, McAdoo could go as high as #4.

NBA Draft.net had McAdoo #3 on their 2013 board. But, if he were to come out this year, it is hard to see how he would be slotted outside their top 10.

Honestly, if McAdoo were to come out, I see this playing out much like it did for Marvin Williams in 2005, where Williams was picked #2, ahead of guys like Felton, May and McCants who had all started (and starred) ahead of him at UNC, based solely on the comparative "upside."

McAdoo may well prefer to stay and be "the man" on next year's UNC team. But, if he comes out now, I think it's a pretty sure bet he's a top 7 pick, at worst top 10, and very likely to go top 5.

And, while it is obviously self-serving, I don't understand at all Mason Plumlee's apparently serious consideration of going. He's at 29 and 27, respectively, by Ford and NBA draft.net, and that is before any of the currently-unknown Euros who always crop up in the middle of the first round come in and knock him down a few more slots. It seems clear to me that Mason would fall out of the first round entirely. He'd be much better served staying another year and coming out next season into a much weaker draft.

UrinalCake
03-28-2012, 02:42 PM
All 4 leave, Heels still have lots of good wingers ready to shine, a promising young PG to share that spot with combo Dex. Bigs are all projects for 2012-'13, so Heels live and die by the 3.

Saying the Heels will live and die by the 3 is like saying Duke will pound it inside all game long. It's just not gonna happen.

In an absolute worst case scenario (for them) the Heels could lose Barnes, Henson, Mcadoo, and Marshall, on top of Zeller graduating. That would leave them with something like this for next year:

PG Paige
SG Strickland/Bullock
SF Hairston?
PF Brice Johnson?
C Joel James

A really young lineup and not much inside.Taking a look at their roster, they would actually have a number of shooting guards (Strickland, McDonald, Bullock, Hairston, Watts) which is kind of strange since SG has been their weakest position the last few years. I wouldn't be surprised to see a late pickup for them similar to Justin Knox.

My estimate is there's a 95-100% chance that Barnes and Henson each leave, 75% on McAdoo, and 50% or less for Marshall.

CDu
03-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Saying the Heels will live and die by the 3 is like saying Duke will pound it inside all game long. It's just not gonna happen.

In an absolute worst case scenario (for them) the Heels could lose Barnes, Henson, Mcadoo, and Marshall, on top of Zeller graduating. That would leave them with something like this for next year:

PG Paige
SG Strickland/Bullock
SF Hairston?
PF Brice Johnson?
C Joel James

A really young lineup and not much inside.Taking a look at their roster, they would actually have a number of shooting guards (Strickland, McDonald, Bullock, Hairston, Watts) which is kind of strange since SG has been their weakest position the last few years. I wouldn't be surprised to see a late pickup for them similar to Justin Knox.

My estimate is there's a 95-100% chance that Barnes and Henson each leave, 75% on McAdoo, and 50% or less for Marshall.

If they were to lose all of those guys, I'd expect Alex Oriakhi to be in Carolina blue next year and playing C. And I wouldn't be shocked to see another grad student transfer come in at PF.

And I'm not sure I agree with the probability estimate for Marshall. His stock is probably as high as it will get thanks to showing scoring prowess down the stretch, the UNC struggles without him, and the lack of true PG ahead of him in this year's draft. I'd put the odds in favor of him going, especially if Henson leaves as well.

Matches
03-28-2012, 02:44 PM
My estimate is there's a 95-100% chance that Barnes and Henson each leave, 75% on McAdoo, and 50% or less for Marshall.

There's a thread on the premium board at IC congratulating Marshall's dad. Unless Mr. Marshall has recently been knighted, I'd push KButter's odds over 50%.

UrinalCake
03-28-2012, 02:47 PM
As many are saying, Marshall missing the last 2 rounds actually gave him a huge draft boost because they team was so much better when he played.

I disagree with this. A lot of people assumed UNC was done once Marshall went down, but they were right there with Kansas until the last five minutes for a chance to go to the Final 4. Stillman White put up 13 assists and 0 turnovers in his two games, which makes you wonder how much of Marshall's play-making abilities has to do with his teammates.

CDu
03-28-2012, 02:52 PM
I disagree with this. A lot of people assumed UNC was done once Marshall went down, but they were right there with Kansas until the last five minutes for a chance to go to the Final 4. Stillman White put up 13 assists and 0 turnovers in his two games, which makes you wonder how much of Marshall's play-making abilities has to do with his teammates.

That's a red herring. If you watched the game, you'd see that the offense stagnated a LOT without Marshall. White's assists were "safe" assists in that he wasn't making things happen. He merely happened to be in the right spot at the right time. He didn't turn the ball over mainly because he never tried to do anything remotely threatening a turnover. His assists were either handoffs on open court plays or passes to wide open shooters who happened to hit their jumpshots.

UNC was able to hang in there because they faced a greatly inferior Ohio team (to whom they probably should have lost) and a very sloppy Kansas team that allowed UNC to run and gun in the first half (taking the pressure off of White to create in the half court).

When the game settled down in the second half, the loss of Marshall really showed up. Marshall was the guy who could create something out of next to nothing. Without him, their offense went from being one of the most efficient in the country to being barely able to top 60 points.

Big Pappa
03-28-2012, 02:56 PM
A really young lineup and not much inside.Taking a look at their roster, they would actually have a number of shooting guards (Strickland, McDonald, Bullock, Hairston, Watts) which is kind of strange since SG has been their weakest position the last few years. I wouldn't be surprised to see a late pickup for them similar to Justin Knox.


Just a quick correction: Watts was a senior this year, so he is gone.

CDu
03-28-2012, 03:05 PM
Just a quick correction: Watts was a senior this year, so he is gone.

Correct. However, you can toss Takoto in place of Watts. The SG/SF position will be very crowded next year with or without Barnes.

nocilla
03-28-2012, 03:11 PM
I disagree with this. A lot of people assumed UNC was done once Marshall went down, but they were right there with Kansas until the last five minutes for a chance to go to the Final 4. Stillman White put up 13 assists and 0 turnovers in his two games, which makes you wonder how much of Marshall's play-making abilities has to do with his teammates.

And how many more assist would White have had if Barnes had shot a decent percentage?


That's a red herring. If you watched the game, you'd see that the offense stagnated a LOT without Marshall. White's assists were "safe" assists in that he wasn't making things happen. He merely happened to be in the right spot at the right time. He didn't turn the ball over mainly because he never tried to do anything remotely threatening a turnover. His assists were either handoffs on open court plays or passes to wide open shooters who happened to hit their jumpshots.


I see what you are saying, but 13 in 2 games seems like a lot of 'safe' assist. Why couldn't Tyler Thornton do that?

CDu
03-28-2012, 03:20 PM
And how many more assist would White have had if Barnes had shot a decent percentage?



I see what you are saying, but 13 in 2 games seems like a lot of 'safe' assist. Why couldn't Tyler Thornton do that?

In the right offense and against the right opponent on the right night he could. If Coach K told Thornton to only pass the ball to wide open players, never make a threatening drive unless wide open, and not force anything at all and we ran lots of screens to set up shooters (and those shooters made shots) he could very easily get those kind of numbers. At least 5 of those assists for example came on plays in which he essentially handed off the ball to an open man (in a couple of cases an open man in the lane) and that guy scored. Some of the others were passes to open jump shooters.

Roy tailored the offense such that White didn't have to do anything dangerous, and Ohio and Kansas (for 25+ minutes at least) played a defensive plan and committed turnovers that allowed White to not get exploited. When Kansas finally figured out what they should do defensively and started cutting down on the awful turnovers, White stopped racking up the assists.

Matches
03-28-2012, 03:22 PM
TT had a few high-assist games this season where pretty much all of them were him passing to Dre for open 3 pointers. So I agree assist totals can be deceiving.

Still, 0 TO in 2 games for a primary ballhandler, even one told specifically not to take chances, is pretty impressive.

Bluedog
03-28-2012, 03:47 PM
His assists were either handoffs on open court plays or passes to wide open shooters who happened to hit their jumpshots


And how many more assist would White have had if Barnes had shot a decent percentage?
I see what you are saying, but 13 in 2 games seems like a lot of 'safe' assist. Why couldn't Tyler Thornton do that?

His crazy alley-oop pass to Barnes didn't look like a "safe" assist to me....I was actually surprisingly impressed with White. Yes, he's obviously not the same as having Marshall run your team and Roy didn't have him take as many risks, but he was certainly not bad for a college PG. The downfall came when Kansas utilized the Va Tech defense against Thornton, though, and challenged White to take long jumpers. White and Thornton seemed to run the offense pretty similarly to me, actually. Thornton's D probably is a bit better though from a "staying in front of your man" perspective, but White might have the edge on quick hands for the steal (which he did against Kansas guards two or three times) a la Seth Curry's defense. Pains me to say that a bit, but that's at least what I saw over those two games. The game vs. Ohio would have been a blowout if Barnes could hit anything, so if anybody should be blamed for that close victory, it should be Barnes.

Pictures of assist and dunk:
http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/00/00/01/16/11635_gallery_uncvkansas_50f.jpg
http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/00/00/01/16/11634_gallery_uncvkansas_49f.jpg

tommy
03-28-2012, 04:26 PM
In the right offense and against the right opponent on the right night he could. If Coach K told Thornton to only pass the ball to wide open players, never make a threatening drive unless wide open, and not force anything at all and we ran lots of screens to set up shooters (and those shooters made shots) he could very easily get those kind of numbers.

That's pretty much what Ty did on offense this year, and that was the problem. He didn't apply any pressure to the defense, and just made easy passes on the perimeter, and was dared to take jumpshots.

But this thread is suposed to be about early entries, not Stillman White and Tyler Thornton.

superdave
03-28-2012, 04:36 PM
Latest Chad Ford chat (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/43129/nba-insider-chad-ford) on the draft. Lotta good stuff in here.

MarkD83
03-28-2012, 04:39 PM
shooting guards (Strickland, McDonald, Bullock, Hairston, Watts)

Watts is graduating.

MarkD83
03-28-2012, 04:43 PM
That's a red herring. If you watched the game, you'd see that the offense stagnated a LOT without Marshall.

I believe Urinal Cake is onto something. The heels really don't need Marshall. He needs to go to the NBA right now. In fact he needs to run to David Stern's office and declare. :)

CDu
03-28-2012, 04:50 PM
His crazy alley-oop pass to Barnes didn't look like a "safe" assist to me....I was actually surprisingly impressed with White. Yes, he's obviously not the same as having Marshall run your team and Roy didn't have him take as many risks, but he was certainly not bad for a college PG. The downfall came when Kansas utilized the Va Tech defense against Thornton, though, and challenged White to take long jumpers. White and Thornton seemed to run the offense pretty similarly to me, actually. Thornton's D probably is a bit better though from a "staying in front of your man" perspective, but White might have the edge on quick hands for the steal (which he did against Kansas guards two or three times) a la Seth Curry's defense. Pains me to say that a bit, but that's at least what I saw over those two games. The game vs. Ohio would have been a blowout if Barnes could hit anything, so if anybody should be blamed for that close victory, it should be Barnes.

Pictures of assist and dunk:
http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/00/00/01/16/11635_gallery_uncvkansas_50f.jpg
http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/00/00/01/16/11634_gallery_uncvkansas_49f.jpg

To clarify: I'm not saying that every single pass White threw was safe. Though I'd note that the alley-oop was safer than it looks - notice the lack of anyone guarding Barnes. I assume there was a high screen by either McAdoo or Henson and the big guarding Henson/McAdoo (I believe it was the inexperienced Young, as it appears that Robinson is guarding Zeller) failed to protect against the backdoor cut.

But look at the box scores: 9 of White's assists against Kansas came on jumpshots. One came on that alley oop. One came on a fast break layup by Henson. Another came in transition for a wide open Henson dunk. The last was a layup for McAdoo off an offensive rebound (don't remember that play). The only slightly low-risk pass was the alley-oop, and again Barnes wasn't really being defended on the play.

But that's missing the point. The point was not to say that White played poorly. He greatly exceeded expectations for sure. The point was that its erroneous to look at White's stat lines and suggest it as evidence that Marshall's stock should go down. The offense was much less efficient without Marshall than it was with Marshall, and the team was lucky to beat a #13 seed as a result.

Nugget
03-28-2012, 04:59 PM
That's a red herring. If you watched the game, you'd see that the offense stagnated a LOT without Marshall. White's assists were "safe" assists in that he wasn't making things happen. He merely happened to be in the right spot at the right time. He didn't turn the ball over mainly because he never tried to do anything remotely threatening a turnover. His assists were either handoffs on open court plays or passes to wide open shooters who happened to hit their jumpshots.

UNC was able to hang in there because they faced a greatly inferior Ohio team (to whom they probably should have lost) and a very sloppy Kansas team that allowed UNC to run and gun in the first half (taking the pressure off of White to create in the half court).

When the game settled down in the second half, the loss of Marshall really showed up. Marshall was the guy who could create something out of next to nothing. Without him, their offense went from being one of the most efficient in the country to being barely able to top 60 points.


Agree 100%. White did fine, but no more than 1 or 2 of his assists occurred due to his making a play. Marshall's absence was absolutely the difference -- his injury made Marshall a bunch of money at Harrison Barnes' expense.

CDu
03-28-2012, 05:06 PM
Latest Chad Ford chat (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/43129/nba-insider-chad-ford) on the draft. Lotta good stuff in here.

To be fair, while all of that sounds nice, none of it is anything we didn't already know. We knew that Marshall, Henson, Barnes, and McAdoo are all projected mid-1st or better IF they decide to go pro. He's just reiterating that. The question still remains whether or not they'll go.

Bluedog
03-28-2012, 05:12 PM
The point was not to say that White played poorly. He greatly exceeded expectations for sure. The point was that its erroneous to look at White's stat lines and suggest it as evidence that Marshall's stock should go down. The offense was much less efficient without Marshall than it was with Marshall, and the team was lucky to beat a #13 seed as a result.

I can certainly agree with that! Hopefully, Marshall realizes that this draft is a weak PG class (and probably his best chance to go lottery) and takes the plunge...

Des Esseintes
03-28-2012, 11:29 PM
I can certainly agree with that! Hopefully, Marshall realizes that this draft is a weak PG class (and probably his best chance to go lottery) and takes the plunge...

This tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/DCSportsFan/status/185079224544145408) (from someone I have never heard of) was at the top of an IC thread titled "Gonna be a long year..." For what it's worth.

slower
03-29-2012, 09:18 AM
NBC just showed a news crawl citing an Insidecarolina.com report that all three are going pro. Don't see anything yet on IC (or anywhere else) confirming this. Turn on NBC (Channel 2 on TW Cable) if you want to see the crawl.

Ichabod Drain
03-29-2012, 09:20 AM
Saw a thread on this on IC, but no one over there has any legit information either. I'll believe it when there's an actual source and real information.

slower
03-29-2012, 09:23 AM
Saw a thread on this on IC, but no one over there has any legit information either. I'll believe it when there's an actual source and real information.

You would hope that a network news source would do better than just reacting to a thread on IC. We shall see - sorry if it's not true, but wanted to share the joyous news (if true). :)

CDu
03-29-2012, 09:46 AM
You would hope that a network news source would do better than just reacting to a thread on IC. We shall see - sorry if it's not true, but wanted to share the joyous news (if true). :)

NBC also posted a story that Mason was going pro based on a misread of a tweet by Jay Williams based on a misread of an article by the Herald Sun. Until I hear it from UNC and the players themselves, I'm not taking much stock in anything just yet.

ChicagoHeel
03-29-2012, 10:21 AM
Looks like Barnes will announce today. I'm thinking if he's making his statement this quickly, he's probably gone. Hope I'm wrong.

www.kcci.com/r/30792496/detail.html

CDu
03-29-2012, 10:23 AM
Looks like Barnes will announce today. I'm thinking if he's making his statement this quickly, he's probably gone. Hope I'm wrong.

www.kcci.com/r/30792496/detail.html

That would be my guess as well. Maybe he does the "declare without an agent" move. But I'd guess he's going.

If he IS going, a good thing one could take (from a UNC perspective) would be the fact that it is not a group press conference bodes better for others staying.

ChicagoHeel
03-29-2012, 10:25 AM
That would be my guess as well. Maybe he does the "declare without an agent" move. But I'd guess he's going.

If he IS going, a good thing one could take (from a UNC perspective) would be the fact that it is not a group press conference bodes better for others staying.

Maybe it means the others are staying, but I think it's just Barnes doing it his own way. Last year he announced separately too. Someone over on IC joked that he might Skype his announcement. Ha.

superdave
03-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Maybe it means the others are staying, but I think it's just Barnes doing it his own way. Last year he announced separately too. Someone over on IC joked that he might Skype his announcement. Ha.

If he uses the word "legacy" then Unc fans ought to find him as obnoxious as we do.

mgtr
03-29-2012, 10:32 AM
In order to stay in character, HB should call Ol' Roy and tell that he is staying, and then have a press conference announcing that he is declaring and has hired an agent!!!

ChicagoHeel
03-29-2012, 10:33 AM
If he uses the word "legacy" then Unc fans ought to find him as obnoxious as we do.

Ironically, Marshall has expressed a desire to be "legendary", which has not generated any ire or really any attention. That's the difference when (1) you're more likable and (2) your performance on the court meets or exceeds expectations.

Kedsy
03-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Ironically, Marshall has expressed a desire to be "legendary", which has not generated any ire or really any attention. That's the difference when (1) you're more likable and (2) your performance on the court meets or exceeds expectations.

I agree. If Marshall stays four years he will go down as a UNC legend. Barnes would go down as another in a long line of good UNC scorers.

davekay1971
03-29-2012, 10:38 AM
In order to stay in character, HB should call Ol' Roy and tell that he is staying, and then have a press conference announcing that he is declaring and has hired an agent!!!

"And the agent with whom I will sign, indeed the agent that will represent me through establishing my legacy, and The Black Falcon (TM) brand in the NBA, will the be agent I will Skype...now."

Regarding Marshall: exactly right. The kid has been an amazing passer in his 2 years at the Dump. He's on track, if he stays four years, to perhaps break the NCAA record for assists. Bobby Hurley had a legendary college career. Marshall has a long way to go to match Bobby's achievements (and 2 NCAA championships now seems next to impossible, unless Barnes, Henson, and McAdoo all stay), but Marshall has been good enough on the court, at the college level, to talk in those terms with some credibility.

yancem
03-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Ironically, Marshall has expressed a desire to be "legendary", which has not generated any ire or really any attention. That's the difference when (1) you're more likable and (2) your performance on the court meets or exceeds expectations.

The likable part is huge but when you actually set records like Marshall has, you can make bold statements. If he were to stick around for 4 years he would most likely surpass Hurley's assist record and depending on who he has to pass to over his last two years, he could crush it. I actually like Marchall and love to watch him pass the ball but I will be happy if he decides he would rather pass to Paul Milsap next year!

CDu
03-29-2012, 10:46 AM
The likable part is huge but when you actually set records like Marshall has, you can make bold statements. If he were to stick around for 4 years he would most likely surpass Hurley's assist record and depending on who he has to pass to over his last two years, he could crush it. I actually like Marchall and love to watch him pass the ball but I will be happy if he decides he would rather pass to Paul Milsap next year!

It also doesn't hurt that he waited to make those comments until after he'd already played well at the college level. And he doesn't make them often like Barnes has. There's nothing wrong with having lofty goals. It's just frowned upon to talk about your legacy and brand when you're not even in college yet.

Indoor66
03-29-2012, 11:08 AM
It also doesn't hurt that he waited to make those comments until after he'd already played well at the college level. And he doesn't make them often like Barnes has. There's nothing wrong with having lofty goals. It's just frowned upon to talk about your legacy and brand when you're not even in college yet.

As my pappy always said: Be wary of those speaking of legacy before performance.

superdave
03-29-2012, 11:09 AM
Ironically, Marshall has expressed a desire to be "legendary", which has not generated any ire or really any attention. That's the difference when (1) you're more likable and (2) your performance on the court meets or exceeds expectations.

You are more likable when you dont call reporters asking about how awesome you are, and when you dont give yourself a really lame nickname. Barnes has a hero complex whereas Marshall seems like he's a good guy and fun to play with.

I hope both cash out ASAP.

UrinalCake
03-29-2012, 11:34 AM
No, no, no. You guys have got it all wrong. He's not announcing by Skyp'ing his agent. He's going to use FaceTime.

Cameron
03-29-2012, 03:00 PM
In keeping with the precedent for grand declarations, perhaps The Black Falcon's ultimate decision could be elegantly revealed by contestants one character at a time on the Wheel of Fortune.

Here's the thing you have to understand about The Black Falcon. He's no longer actually living here on Earth with us. He left this planet a while ago.

BTW, is there any truth behind the thread started earlier regarding an NBC report that UNC's big three are all declaring? I noticed that thread has since disappeared. (Apologies if I somehow missed that discussion somewhere else -- at work and don't always have time to peruse every part of the board. Thanks.)

Kedsy
03-29-2012, 03:07 PM
BTW, is there any truth behind the thread started earlier regarding an NBC report that UNC's big three are all declaring? I noticed that thread has since disappeared. (Apologies if I somehow missed that discussion somewhere else -- at work and don't always have time to peruse every part of the board. Thanks.)

Looks like that thread was merged into this one. No new information, far as I can tell.

killerleft
03-29-2012, 03:07 PM
In keeping with the precedent for grand declarations, perhaps The Black Falcon's ultimate decision could be elegantly revealed by contestants one character at a time on the Wheel of Fortune.

Here's the thing you have to understand about The Black Falcon. He's no longer actually living here on Earth with us. He left this planet a while ago.

BTW, is there any truth behind the thread started earlier regarding an NBC report that UNC's big three are all declaring? I noticed that thread has since disappeared. (Apologies if I somehow missed that discussion somewhere else -- at work and don't always have time to peruse every part of the board. Thanks.)

That thread has been blended into this thread, earlier on this page. The NBC report has not been verified by anyone.

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 03:22 PM
Well, unless Inside Carolina has been hacked, the IC Staff just posted that Henson, Barnes, and Marshall are all leaving.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=8861051

slower
03-29-2012, 03:22 PM
That thread has been blended into this thread, earlier on this page. The NBC report has not been verified by anyone.

Look back at post #61. NBC-17 (Raleigh) had a news crawl this morning during the Today show saying "Insidecarolina.com has confirmed...", but I never saw any confirmation anywhere. Sorry to have jumped the gun (probably just lazy reporting by NBC), but hopefully it WILL come true. :)


Oops - see above!!!

Cameron
03-29-2012, 03:23 PM
Thanks, guys, for pointing me in the right direction above. I obviously just glanced over that part of the thread without noticing it.

What a glorious start to the off-season that would be. If the big three (Henson, Marshall and Barnes) all leave, and they are somehow followed by Michael McAdoo (who, from what I understand, is predicted to go top ten in some mock drafts), the heat on Roy, it will be on.

The thought of a repeat of UNC 2010 is enough to make me want to front crawl to Australia and actually hug a black falcon.

yancem
03-29-2012, 03:28 PM
Now we just have to wait on McAdoo to make his decision. Next year could be very interesting, unc will not be a traditional unc team with a very limited frontcourt, NCSU could be the cream of the crop in the acc and it's too early to tell where Duke will stand (we have too many variables that are yet to be decided).

CarmenWallaceWade
03-29-2012, 03:28 PM
Well, unless Inside Carolina has been hacked, the IC Staff just posted that Henson, Barnes, and Marshall are all leaving.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=8861051


They are out. In the words of Marv Albert, "YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!"

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/10922827/

roywhite
03-29-2012, 03:33 PM
They are out. In the words of Marv Albert, "YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!"

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/10922827/

From the wral article:


“I’m honored and blessed to have the opportunity to compete in the NBA,” says Barnes. “The love and respect I have for basketball fuel the drive toward my ultimate goal – to experience an illustrious career in the NBA. I have consulted with Coach Williams and my family, and although it was a difficult decision, I have decided to enter this year’s NBA draft.



"illustrious career"?
well, we'll see

Doug.I.Am
03-29-2012, 03:33 PM
Marshall surprises me, not the other 2.

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/7752253/north-carolina-tar-heels-jon-henson-harrison-barnes-kendall-marshall-enter-draft

Wooops, this has already been covered in another thread, I see no reason to keep this around except for the sole reason to highlight it! ;)

CarmenWallaceWade
03-29-2012, 03:38 PM
Marshall surprises me, not the other 2.

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/7752253/north-carolina-tar-heels-jon-henson-harrison-barnes-kendall-marshall-enter-draft

Marshall doesn't surprise me. I think in addition to being a great pg, he had a wealth of talent surrounding him this year that helped his stock skyrocket. It was the perfect time for him to leave. I doubt he would have put up the same kind of numbers next year. The late season injury probably also served as a reality check.

UrinalCake
03-29-2012, 03:43 PM
"illustrious career"? well, we'll see

This seems accurate to me - his entire college career has been an illusion.

freedevil
03-29-2012, 03:43 PM
Interesting that they all announced at once.

Also, agents?

CDu
03-29-2012, 03:49 PM
Interesting that they all announced at once.

That's the way UNC usually does it. Wonder what that means for McAdoo.

Regardless, it'll be an entirely different UNC team next year. I suspect that they'll be adding Oriakhi now, which will help their frontcourt. But that's no longer a top-10 team in my opinion, even if McAdoo comes back.

ChicagoHeel
03-29-2012, 03:49 PM
Interesting that they all announced at once.

I can't say I'm surprised, but as a greedy Carolina fan I'm really sorry to see them go. I was particularly hoping, and mildly optimistic, that Marshall would stick around another year, but his stock is so high one can hardly blaming him for going now. A Marshall/McAdoo combination could have been potent. Oh well. Looks like it may be NCSU's year.

UrinalCake
03-29-2012, 03:55 PM
I can't say I'm surprised, but as a greedy Carolina fan I'm really sorry to see them go. I was particularly hoping, and mildly optimistic, that Marshall would stick around another year, but his stock is so high one can hardly blaming him for going now. A Marshall/McAdoo combination could have been potent. Oh well. Looks like it may be NCSU's year.

It always stings when a guy leaves early, no matter how expected it might be. Last year I was still holding out hope that Kyrie would come back, right up until the minute he announced, even though the writing had been on the wall for some time. And it sucks that you guys had a perfect storm of talent and experience this year that got derailed by injuries, much like it did for us last year. Anyways, as a Duke fan I hope this swings the pendulum back in our favor, though a lot remains to be determined. Agree that NCSU has the talent to be right up there with the big two regardless of any remaining departures or additions.

Matches
03-29-2012, 03:55 PM
That's the way UNC usually does it. Wonder what that means for McAdoo.

Regardless, it'll be an entirely different UNC team next year. I suspect that they'll be adding Oriakhi now, which will help their frontcourt. But that's no longer a top-10 team in my opinion, even if McAdoo comes back.

Probably no announcement for McAdoo until next week. But his exclusion from this announcement shouldn't be considered evidence in either direction.

gus
03-29-2012, 03:59 PM
I can't say I'm surprised, but as a greedy Carolina fan I'm really sorry to see them go. I was particularly hoping, and mildly optimistic, that Marshall would stick around another year, but his stock is so high one can hardly blaming him for going now. A Marshall/McAdoo combination could have been potent. Oh well. Looks like it may be NCSU's year.

The greedy Duke fan in me is glad Marshall won't stick around to break Hurley's record. But I did enjoy watching him in college.

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 04:00 PM
Although it's sacrilegious to say this, for the non-Duke-fanatic, very-interested-but-disinterested bball fans, a UK-UNC NC game might have been a classic.

As a Duke fanatic, I'd have to have taken comfort that one of them had to lose.

But, with a healthy Marshall, and certainly with a healthy Marshall and Strickland, that would have been an enticing prospect.

So, I'm happy Roy doesn't get a shot at #3 in 2012. And an NC for Barnes would have been exceedingly difficult to stomach. But I do admire the great play of Zeller and Marshall.

Well, did.

CDu
03-29-2012, 04:00 PM
Interesting that they all announced at once.

Also, agents?

Based on Roy's quote in the ESPN article, they aren't coming back.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 04:09 PM
Best news of the day.

Total rebuilding year for the Heels next year.

Plus, Stillman White is gone for his mission, Watts and Zeller graduated. That leaves Strickland and McDonald coming off injuries, and the incoming freshmen.

The only downside is... what does this mean for recruits who have not decided on a school yet? How many add UNC back to their lists?

El_Diablo
03-29-2012, 04:12 PM
Best news of the day.

Total rebuilding year for the Heels next year.

Plus, Stillman White is gone for his mission, Watts and Zeller graduated. That leaves Strickland and McDonald coming off injuries, and the incoming freshmen.

The only downside is... what does this mean for recruits who have not decided on a school yet? How many add UNC back to their lists?

And Reggie Bullock. And PJ Hairston. And possibly James McAdoo. Still a very talented group.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 04:12 PM
And Reggie Bullock. And PJ Hairston. And possibly James McAdoo. Still a very talented group.

I don't see a lot of size there...

NYC Duke Fan
03-29-2012, 04:13 PM
THis might make it easier for Mason to stay as all 3 shoulds be drafted ahead of Mason along with who aside from Davis leaves from Kentucky.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 04:14 PM
THis might make it easier for Mason to stay as all 3 shoulds be drafted ahead of Mason along with who aside from Davis leaves from Kentucky.

And Sullinger, who probably will leave this year... and Thomas Robinson.

Lots of bigs project ahead of Mason. Could force his hand...

slower
03-29-2012, 04:15 PM
BTW, several of my Tarheel frends on FB are thinking this will push Nerlens Noel in their direction.

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 04:19 PM
Regardless, it'll be an entirely different UNC team next year. I suspect that they'll be adding Oriakhi now, which will help their frontcourt. But that's no longer a top-10 team in my opinion, even if McAdoo comes back.

With respect, I might disagree, depending on exactly what your post means.

If you mean that even with both McAdoo and Oriakhi, UNC wouldn't be preseason consensus top 10, I do disagree and would put them top 7-8. Behind NCSt, if Calvin Leslie stays. And behind Duke, if Mason stays.

If you mean that with McAdoo but not Oriakhi, I agree they might fall out of consensus preseason top 10, but not far.

I recall that you and I had a mini-debate re McAdoo last spring, I being sold on him as #2 frosh, after Anthony Davis. You thought, as I recall, that McAdoo got too many easy buckets in all-star games by loitering for open court dunks. So we just saw things differently then.

I'm still way high on McAdoo, if not quite Charles Barkley sky-high.

Heels still have loads of talent, but, admittedly, several questions. My guess at depth-chart:

PG - Strickland, Paige -- nowhere close to Marshall, but solid enough
Wings - Bullock, Hairston, McDonald, Strickland, Tokoto -- time for these guys to show up
Bigs - McAdoo, (Oriakhi??), Hubert, Johnson, James -- all depends on McAdoo staying

If McAdoo leaves, even if Oriakhi shows up, Heels are in trouble.

Kedsy
03-29-2012, 04:20 PM
BTW, several of my Tarheel frends on FB are thinking this will push Nerlens Noel in their direction.

They can think it all they want. Kentucky will be in the same boat regarding available minutes. And Noel wasn't going to have to worry about playing time no matter what. It's just wishful thinking on your friends' part, unless Noel actually comes out and says UNC looks more attractive to him now.

gocanes0506
03-29-2012, 04:20 PM
BTW, several of my Tarheel frends on FB are thinking this will push Nerlens Noel in their direction.

which is fine. he is a shot blocking machine but he is 6'10 215. He is tiny and a good C with some muscle will out do him all day. He benefited much like Zoubs of playing much smaller people in HS.

CDu
03-29-2012, 04:21 PM
I don't see a lot of size there...

I'd expect an announcement in the not-to-distant future that Oriakhi will be transferring to UNC. That'll give them a starting 5 of Strickland, McDonald, Bullock, McAdoo, Oriakhi. The bench will be Paige, Hairston, Takoto, Johnson, James, and Hubert. They'll have plenty of size, just a lot of it will be very unproven. And they'll have loads of perimeter depth and length. They'll still be pretty good. Just probably not championship good.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 04:22 PM
They can think it all they want. Kentucky will be in the same boat regarding available minutes. And Noel wasn't going to have to worry about playing time no matter what. It's just wishful thinking on your friends' part, unless Noel actually comes out and says UNC looks more attractive to him now.

Yea I'd imagine him going to UK over UNC, simply because of the success Anthony Davis had, who is similar in style (however, Davis is worlds better).

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 04:23 PM
I'd expect an announcement in the not-to-distant future that Oriakhi will be transferring to UNC. That'll give them a starting 5 of Strickland, McDonald, Bullock, McAdoo, Oriakhi. The bench will be Paige, Hairston, Takoto, Johnson, James, and Hubert. They'll have plenty of size, just a lot of it will be very unproven. And they'll have loads of perimeter depth and length. They'll still be pretty good. Just probably not championship good.

Here's hoping Oriaki has more Mahktar N'dyiae in him than Dikembe Mutombo...

slower
03-29-2012, 04:24 PM
which is fine. he is a shot blocking machine but he is 6'10 215. He is tiny and a good C with some muscle will out do him all day. He benefited much like Zoubs of playing much smaller people in HS.

I don't know, man. I watched Noel dominate Mitch McGary recently. Noel is an animal (and I mean that in the very best sense).

Ichabod Drain
03-29-2012, 04:27 PM
which is fine. he is a shot blocking machine but he is 6'10 215. He is tiny and a good C with some muscle will out do him all day. He benefited much like Zoubs of playing much smaller people in HS.

That's very optimistic of you but Noel is a beast and it's not like Anthony Davis is sporting a ton of muscle.

Olympic Fan
03-29-2012, 04:31 PM
With respect, I might disagree, depending on exactly what your post means.

If you mean that even with both McAdoo and Oriakhi, UNC wouldn't be preseason consensus top 10, I do disagree and would put them top 7-8. Behind NCSt, if Calvin Leslie stays. And behind Duke, if Mason stays.

If you mean that with McAdoo but not Oriakhi, I agree they might fall out of consensus preseason top 10, but not far.

I recall that you and I had a mini-debate re McAdoo last spring, I being sold on him as #2 frosh, after Anthony Davis. You thought, as I recall, that McAdoo got too many easy buckets in all-star games by loitering for open court dunks. So we just saw things differently then.

I'm still way high on McAdoo, if not quite Charles Barkley sky-high.

Heels still have loads of talent, but, admittedly, several questions. My guess at depth-chart:

PG - Strickland, Paige -- nowhere close to Marshall, but solid enough
Wings - Bullock, Hairston, McDonald, Strickland, Tokoto -- time for these guys to show up
Bigs - McAdoo, (Oriakhi??), Hubert, Johnson, James -- all depends on McAdoo staying

If McAdoo leaves, even if Oriakhi shows up, Heels are in trouble.

Not sure what you mean by "even if Orakhi shows up"?

There are still a LOT of imponderables left. Just looking at the three Triangle schools:

UNC
1. Does McAdoo also go?
2. Do they add Orakhi and if they do, is he eligible right away (the last part is automatic if UConn loses its last appeal)?
3. Do they hit a home run and add Noel?

NC State
1. Does Leslie stay? (.00001 percent chance)
2. Does Brown stay? (likely, but he's investigating a jump)
3. Do they add Jefferson? (50-50 chance)

Duke
1. Does Mason stay? (looks to be 50-50 right now)
2. Does Duke add Jefferson (50-50)
3. Does Duke add Parker (possible, but less than 50-50)
4. Does Duke hit a home run and land Muhammad (less than 50-50, but more likely than UNC getting Noel)
5. Duke Duke add Ziegler and if they do, is he eligible right away?

Until we know the answer to these questions, I don't see how we can rank the three Triangle schools -- much less project where they fit in the ACC and nation. Depending on the variety of answers, you could have any order for the three.

I'll say this for UNC, Roy has twice had to rebuild from scratch (2006 and 2010). He did a great job in 2006 an a terrible job in 2010.
It would be a mistake to write them off as a top-level ACC team AT THIS MOMENT. But I have more faith that K ill fashion a contending team next year than that Roy will.

gocanes0506
03-29-2012, 04:33 PM
That's very optimistic of you but Noel is a beast and it's not like Anthony Davis is sporting a ton of muscle.

I understand but Davis weighs at least 10 pounds more (im not sure how much you have played but 10 pounds difference will wear you out after a while) and has a uni-brow. Dont underestimate the power of the uni-brow:p

slower
03-29-2012, 04:38 PM
I understand but Davis weighs at least 10 pounds more (im not sure how much you have played but 10 pounds difference will wear you out after a while) and has a uni-brow. Dont underestimate the power of the uni-brow:p

Yeah, but have you seen Noel's old-school Kid-N-Play fade haircut?

superdave
03-29-2012, 04:39 PM
1. Does McAdoo also go?

How could McAdoo pass up being a top 10 pick? He has to go. It's in his financial interests to do so. Also, why stick around to watch baseball passes from Dexter Strickland sail over your head when you can get paid to be the backup to one of the Morris twins?

gocanes0506
03-29-2012, 04:41 PM
Yeah, but have you seen Noel's old-school Kid-N-Play fade haircut?

True. Hmmm we may have to a way to determine if the Fade or uni-brow has more power on the bball court.

CDu
03-29-2012, 04:43 PM
NC State
1. Does Leslie stay? (.00001 percent chance)
2. Does Brown stay? (likely, but he's investigating a jump)

I disagree here. Leslie isn't a lottery pick right now, so he'd really have to hate college life to go this year. He seems to like Gottfried. He may very well go, but I'd say the chances are much better that he stays than you suggest. I'd call it closer to a 50/50. And I would be very surprised if Brown goes. He won't crack the 1st round.

Rogue
03-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Since we've heard so much about the unc-ch point guard that averaged 30 min in the Sweet 16 game and Elite 8 game,, we can now say Stilman White is expected to still be going on his mission trip for the church of LDS.
Another elite 8 starter gone. ( I actually like Stilman, when not dressed in the smurf bleu )

Channing
03-29-2012, 04:56 PM
True. Hmmm we may have to a way to determine if the Fade or uni-brow has more power on the bball court.

Grant Hill says hi...

Duvall
03-29-2012, 05:03 PM
BTW, several of my Tarheel frends on FB are thinking this will push Nerlens Noel in their direction.

Not sure why it would. UNC was going to be looking for a new center regardless; losing Marshall, Barnes and Henson (but mostly Marshall) makes UNC a less appealing destination for next season, not more.

MChambers
03-29-2012, 05:20 PM
I know I'm biased, but I found Barnes's press statement to be much more stilted and pretentious than those of Henson and Marshall. In fact, it read a lot like his statement two years ago.

Nugget
03-29-2012, 05:22 PM
I don't see a lot of size there...


McAdoo, Hubert, the freshman James and potentially Oriahki is plenty of size at the 4-5 spots. Especially compared to what everyone else in the ACC (other than State, maybe) is going to have inside.

freedevil
03-29-2012, 05:31 PM
McAdoo, Hubert, the freshman James and potentially Oriahki is plenty of size at the 4-5 spots. Especially compared to what everyone else in the ACC (other than State, maybe) is going to have inside.

Agree it's plenty of size, but just doesn't seem as formidable as years past.

Duvall
03-29-2012, 05:34 PM
Agree it's plenty of size, but just doesn't seem as formidable as years past.

Well, they would be going from multiple lottery-type players to just one. But still, size up front won't be UNC's problem unless McAdoo leaves and Oriakhi goes elsewhere.

yancem
03-29-2012, 05:36 PM
Yea I'd imagine him going to UK over UNC, simply because of the success Anthony Davis had, who is similar in style (however, Davis is worlds better).

I'm not so sure about that. Everything I have read and seen says that Noel is a stud. He probably is not quite as developed offensively but I've heard he is the best defensive center to come along in a long time. And remember as good as Davis is he's only averaging 14 ppg which is very good for a freshman but not other worldly like say Durant, Beasly or really even Hansolo.

ncexnyc
03-29-2012, 06:00 PM
The info that was put out on the David Glenn show today, was that McAdoo had gone home to discuss his status with his family.

Now I'm shocked that no one has been able to come up with a nice photo shop picture of the pigeon flying the coop.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 06:38 PM
McAdoo, Hubert, the freshman James and potentially Oriahki is plenty of size at the 4-5 spots. Especially compared to what everyone else in the ACC (other than State, maybe) is going to have inside.

Let me amend.

SKILLED size. :)

dpslaw
03-29-2012, 06:43 PM
I know I'm biased, but I found Barnes's press statement to be much more stilted and pretentious than those of Henson and Marshall. In fact, it read a lot like his statement two years ago.

"I'm honored and blessed to have the opportunity to compete in the NBA," Barnes said in a statement. "The love and respect I have for basketball fuel the drive toward my ultimate goal - to experience an illustrious career in the NBA."

What a douche!

WiJoe
03-29-2012, 06:49 PM
Now I'm shocked that no one has been able to come up with a nice photo shop picture of the pigeon flying the coop.

Ask, and you shall receive (kinda).

2503

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 06:59 PM
Not sure what you mean by "even if Orakhi shows up"?

There are still a LOT of imponderables left. Just looking at the three Triangle schools....

Until we know the answer to ... questions, I don't see how we can rank the three Triangle schools -- much less project where they fit in the ACC and nation. Depending on the variety of answers, you could have any order for the three.

What I meant was, if McAdoo leaves, but Heels add Oriakhi, I do not believe they'd be preseason consensus top 10. To me, McAdoo is clearly the key to Heels' fortunes next season.

You're surely right about all the imponderables, but you must not poop overmuch on the speculation-party, which is a normal, if/and deliriously happy, Duke-fanatic response to the news out of CH.

I forgive you, both because you are right, and because I'm so very happy - for Kendall, John, and particularly Harrison, you understand - just now.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 07:10 PM
Ask, and you shall receive (kinda).

2503

I think this is more like what they were thinking...

2504

ncexnyc
03-29-2012, 07:12 PM
I think this is more like what they were thinking...

2504
Now that's perfect.:D

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 07:37 PM
I know I'm biased, but I found Barnes's press statement to be much more stilted and pretentious than those of Henson and Marshall. In fact, it read a lot like his statement two years ago.

Not your bias. It does remind us of the announcement. The key, stilted, phrases are: "fuel the drive," "illustrious career" [that one's just too easy, because too much], and "next course of my journey."

It's actually possible that Barnes was encouraged to write like this in high school. I have seen plenty of good students whose writing was made worse by bad advice from high school teachers [surely not UNC profs] who were themselves, uh, misguided. Either that or, as I wondered in another thread, some of his teachers noticed this tendency toward purple prose in service of self-importance, but couldn't or wouldn't attempt to help him. Easy to imagine that they sort of let it slide because it paled in comparison to - I mean this - his admirable qualities.

I suspect it was a bit of both. At some point, Barnes crossed an invisible line, and was transformed, in the eyes of a growing circle of star-struck admirers, from a multi-talented young person to an untouchable. It would be interesting to trace his maturing from this point forward.

WiJoe
03-29-2012, 07:58 PM
I think this is more like what they were thinking...

2504

bravo! I have no photoshop experience. Perhaps I should take course. You could have made his head much bigger (would fit his ego).

MChambers
03-29-2012, 07:58 PM
Not your bias. It does remind us of the announcement. The key, stilted, phrases are: "fuel the drive," "illustrious career" [that one's just too easy, because too much], and "next course of my journey."

It's actually possible that Barnes was encouraged to write like this in high school. I have seen plenty of good students whose writing was made worse by bad advice from high school teachers [surely not UNC profs] who were themselves, uh, misguided. Either that or, as I wondered in another thread, some of his teachers noticed this tendency toward purple prose in service of self-importance, but couldn't or wouldn't attempt to help him. Easy to imagine that they sort of let it slide because it paled in comparison to - I mean this - his admirable qualities.

I suspect it was a bit of both. At some point, Barnes crossed an invisible line, and was transformed, in the eyes of a growing circle of star-struck admirers, from a multi-talented young person to an untouchable. It would be interesting to trace his maturing from this point forward.
A good editor would have simplified "to experience an illustrious career in the NBA" as "an NBA career".

At least we know Barnes writes his own material.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 07:59 PM
bravo! I have no photoshop experience. Perhaps I should take course. You could have made his head oversized (would fit his ego).

Good call. Round 2 coming up!

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 08:01 PM
This time, with ego-appropriate proportions!


2505

Matches
03-29-2012, 08:03 PM
A good editor would have simplified "to experience an illustrious career in the NBA" as "an NBA career".

At least we know Barnes writes his own material.

As does Henson, in light of his recent statement that Marshall was an "intricate" part of the team.

I thought they were supposed to have a good journalism school over there. :)

Matches
03-29-2012, 08:04 PM
This time, with ego-appropriate proportions!


2505

Heh. It's screaming for the ball but has no chance of ever doing anything with it.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 08:05 PM
As does Henson, in light of his recent statement that Marshall was an "intricate" part of the team.

I thought they were supposed to have a good journalism school over there. :)

Maybe he meant "the scaphoid is an intricate bone."

WiJoe
03-29-2012, 08:34 PM
This time, with ego-appropriate proportions!


2505


Tremendous!

-jk
03-29-2012, 08:41 PM
I may have missed this, but have they announced an intention to hire agents, or are they merely testing the waters, while withholding the possibility of pulling out? It sounds somewhat final, but I want to manage my expectations appropriately...

-jk

Newton_14
03-29-2012, 08:49 PM
I may have missed this, but have they announced an intention to hire agents, or are they merely testing the waters, while withholding the possibility of pulling out? It sounds somewhat final, but I want to manage my expectations appropriately...

-jk

Not testing the waters. Per the link below, all 3 are definitely leaving and Roy wishes them well.

Linky (http://www.tarheelblue.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/032912aac.html)

NashvilleDevil
03-29-2012, 08:50 PM
I may have missed this, but have they announced an intention to hire agents, or are they merely testing the waters, while withholding the possibility of pulling out? It sounds somewhat final, but I want to manage my expectations appropriately...

-jk

Reading Barnes statement I'd say there is no chance he's coming back. As for the other 2 I'm sure they would rather risk another injury in the NBA and get paid than have it happen again as an amateur.

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 09:18 PM
[I've imported this tag-quote from the McDonald's thread, as my response moves the issue toward the Heels next season without Marshall.... And other things, too. Keep reading.]


I disagreed with analysis of Marcus Paige ... and I'll reiterate my disagreement here. Paige may have only scored four points, but he dished out seven assists against one turnover. He also had a steal and a blocked shot. With Kendall Marshall off to the NBA, I expect Paige will step in and excel running (pun intended) Coach Williams' system.

I'll be interested in seeing how Roy uses Paige and Strickland at PG next year. Paige is clearly the superior PG, but Dexter is an experienced senior who might have the early-season edge as starting PG.

Maybe Wheat wants in on this discussion - I'm serious, I'd welcome his thoughts, as always - as way back, long before Marshall [not to mention Strickland] was actually injured, Wheat posted some firm praise for Strickland's ability to take over for Marshall, were it to come to that.

Come to think of it, Wheat, it's all your fault. By claiming that Dexter would do just fine, you angered the karma gods and they took it out on both Dexter and Kendall. You need to confess, over on IC. I don't envy you, 'cause you're gonna catch hell. Why not just convert to our side? You like us - very sensible of you - much better than Heel-nutters, anyway.

ncexnyc
03-29-2012, 09:22 PM
Just yesterday these were the most talented kids in the world and would have won a National Championship without breaking a sweat had it not been for a broken wrist. Today, according to a number of my co-workers these very same kids are the biggest dummies in the world with so many holes in their game it's a wonder anyone would even consider drafting them.

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 09:28 PM
Just yesterday these were the most talented kids in the world and would have won a National Championship without breaking a sweat had it not been for a broken wrist. Today, according to a number of my co-workers these very same kids are the biggest dummies in the world with so many holes in their game it's a wonder anyone would even consider drafting them.

It's all sour grapes - the official fruit of the Tar Heels.

Newton_14
03-29-2012, 09:39 PM
Just yesterday these were the most talented kids in the world and would have won a National Championship without breaking a sweat had it not been for a broken wrist. Today, according to a number of my co-workers these very same kids are the biggest dummies in the world with so many holes in their game it's a wonder anyone would even consider drafting them.


It's all sour grapes - the official fruit of the Tar Heels.

All 3 of my UNC buds (oxymoron, I know) left early today WITHOUT stopping by my office per normal to chat it up about hoops. I went to see one of them right after the official article came out and he looked physically sick (literally).

To add to their misery, the State guys at work are wearing those guys out with emails and what not, chirping about the 3 State Mickey D recruits to just 1 for UNC. That combined with the mass exodus over on the hill, combined with the stunning end to the season w/o a Final Four let alone the title all 3 were convinced their Heels were going to win, is flat killing these guys. I almost feel sorry for them...:)

HateCarolina
03-29-2012, 09:39 PM
It's all sour grapes - the official fruit of the Tar Heels.

Got grapes? Let's make some whine...

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 09:41 PM
All 3 of my UNC buds (oxymoron, I know) left early today WITHOUT stopping by my office per normal to chat it up about hoops. I went to see one of them right after the official article came out and he looked physically sick (literally).

To add to their misery, the State guys at work are wearing those guys out with emails and what not, chirping about the 3 State Mickey D recruits to just 1 for UNC. That combined with the mass exodus over on the hill, combined with the stunning end to the season w/o a Final Four let alone the title all 3 were convinced their Heels were going to win, is flat killing these guys. I almost feel sorry for them...:)

I've been so glad that State is becoming relevant again because they hate Carolina as much or more than Duke fans. So it's a double dose of fan hatred for the Heels, but now that State is on the way up, it actually HURTS em now.

Happy days!

moonpie23
03-29-2012, 09:59 PM
I've been so glad that State is becoming relevant again because they hate Carolina as much or more than Duke fans. So it's a double dose of fan hatred for the Heels, but now that State is on the way up, it actually HURTS em now.

Happy days!


let's see how much you like them being relevant again when they start biting US......

FerryFor50
03-29-2012, 10:03 PM
let's see how much you like them being relevant again when they start biting US......

Doesn't matter. Both fanbases have that one thing in common... hating UNC.

Everyone already thinks Duke gets all the calls, flops, etc. That's the best they've got. :)

Dukehky
03-29-2012, 10:21 PM
A little late to this party, driving most of the day listening to the ol' ipod, and when I turned on the the computer I find this, and needless to say, I'm not exactly unhappy.

I read all of their exit quotes and appreciated Marshall and Henson's a lot, they are both really good. Harry is really good as well, but I feel like he just doesn't get it. He continues to put pressure on himself with his words, which as eloquent as he tries to be, indicates that he put a lot of thought into them, and that's what he comes up with? He's just a different breed, not of player like I thought when he was coming into school, but just a different breed of dude. Not to say he's a bad guy, but he just doesn't get it.

I think that McAdoo will have a really hard time turning down the NBA at this point, especially after seeing the probable hit that Harry's draft stock took between freshman and sophomore year and experiencing how badly injuries can hurt a team, and luckily for his teammates, not a career.

Carolina's still going to be formidable next year. There's a lot of length and athleticism on the wing and those players are just gonna get better. I think L-Mac is going to come back with a vengeance, and Strickland can straight up play. However, especially without McAdoo, I think that State and Duke are probably the top two in the league if things stay as they are right now (Mason here, and only Sheed coming in). Things could go either way with Mason's departure or the remaining recruits decisions.

Roy proved in 06 that he has the capabilities to do well even after a mass exodus of talent (with a lot of help from He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named), but he also did a terrible job in 2010. I think this season will show whether or not Roy is as mediocre as I often claim him to be.

Hey Shabazz, come to Duke

UrinalCake
03-29-2012, 10:23 PM
I understand how it must be really disappointing for UNC fans to lose these three guys, but I don't really understand why it's all that surprising. I mean they've known all year long that these guys were likely to leave and that Barnes and Henson could have left last year. To hear what some of their fans are saying it's like it hit them completely out of the blue. I'm always disappointed when one of our guys leaves early, but there's only been a handful of times that I was actually surprised (Dunleavy and Shavlik Randolph are two that come to mind).

ChicagoHeel
03-29-2012, 10:25 PM
[I've imported this tag-quote from the McDonald's thread, as my response moves the issue toward the Heels next season without Marshall.... And other things, too. Keep reading.]

I'll be interested in seeing how Roy uses Paige and Strickland at PG next year. Paige is clearly the superior PG, but Dexter is an experienced senior who might have the early-season edge as starting PG.

Maybe Wheat wants in on this discussion - I'm serious, I'd welcome his thoughts, as always - as way back, long before Marshall [not to mention Strickland] was actually injured, Wheat posted some firm praise for Strickland's ability to take over for Marshall, were it to come to that.

Strickland is solid as a PG. In the half-court, he takes care of the ball but doesn't make much happen. In that sense, he's a bit like LDII before he transferred, minus the cancerous attitude. In transition, he's very effective because he's so fast and finishes extremely well at the rim. So if we have good enough D to allow us to run, I expect DS will be the PG for most of the minutes. If Paige comes in and is effective quickly, then we might have a dilemma sort of like 2010 when Tar Heel fans were screaming for Marshall over Drew but Roy was slow to bench LDII. At least in this case, DS wouldn't have to be benched, so maybe Paige could take over the reigns quickly. Of course, I have no idea how quickly Paige will adjust to the college game.

throatybeard
03-29-2012, 10:48 PM
Well, they would be going from multiple lottery-type players to just one. But still, size up front won't be UNC's problem unless McAdoo leaves and Oriakhi goes elsewhere.

So, be still my beating heart, we won't lack for lectures from Wheat about "post presence?"

CDu
03-29-2012, 10:50 PM
So, be still my beating heart, we won't lack for lectures from Wheat about "post presence?"

I do wonder if this is going to lead to a long stretch of no posts from Wheat (like after we won the title).

Wheat/"/"/"
03-29-2012, 10:51 PM
I'm not surprised these players are heading for the NBA, it's the way it is in today's game. Yea, we're bummed that we didn't get to see them compete for a championship without all the injuries to the team, but that's also the way it goes, sometimes.

I am actually looking forward to next year. Watching players develop is probably my favorite part of following college ball.

Joel James could be the key player if McAdoo decides to stay. I like what I see coming from him, a true back to the basket post player. He's a little raw, but has the size we want and his game looks to be a perfect fit for UNC.

Oriakhi would be an immediate help, of course, and let James develop slower, but if James has to play, UNC will have some post play.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hbDz1OfIpaI

gumbomoop
03-29-2012, 10:51 PM
Strickland is solid as a PG. In the half-court, he takes care of the ball but doesn't make much happen. In that sense, he's a bit like LDII before he transferred, minus the cancerous attitude. In transition, he's very effective because he's so fast and finishes extremely well at the rim. So if we have good enough D to allow us to run, I expect DS will be the PG for most of the minutes. If Paige comes in and is effective quickly, then we might have a dilemma sort of like 2010 when Tar Heel fans were screaming for Marshall over Drew but Roy was slow to bench LDII. At least in this case, DS wouldn't have to be benched, so maybe Paige could take over the reigns quickly. Of course, I have no idea how quickly Paige will adjust to the college game.

Good points here. I disagreed with Wheat a few months back for what I saw as overpraise for Strickland as a PG. But you and Wheat and the other EK posters definitely have watched him more consistently and carefully than I.

I continue to think Paige is the more "natural" PG, and remind all that Roy "blamed" [playfully, I think] Kyrie for Strickland's arrival in CH as insufficiently experienced at the position. But Strickland is surely far superior on D, plus he's a combo guard, so as you say, he's gonna play plenty.

I wouldn't "predict" anything like a repeat of the Drew-Marshall problem. Still, Paige is actually in a dicey spot, for he'll probably have to share the position with Strickland in 2012-'13, and then in 2013-'14 and 2014-'15 with highly-rated Nate Britt. Yes?

It's a good problem to have; unless it becomes a problem.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-29-2012, 11:02 PM
So, be still my beating heart, we won't lack for lectures from Wheat about "post presence?"

I'll be glad to comment on Duke's post presence, just as soon as they get some.

Devilsfan
03-29-2012, 11:07 PM
Post presence? If we somehow get Shabazz we won't need any. He's unbelievable.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-29-2012, 11:23 PM
Good points here. I disagreed with Wheat a few months back for what I saw as overpraise for Strickland as a PG. But you and Wheat and the other EK posters definitely have watched him more consistently and carefully than I.

I continue to think Paige is the more "natural" PG, and remind all that Roy "blamed" [playfully, I think] Kyrie for Strickland's arrival in CH as insufficiently experienced at the position. But Strickland is surely far superior on D, plus he's a combo guard, so as you say, he's gonna play plenty.

I wouldn't "predict" anything like a repeat of the Drew-Marshall problem. Still, Paige is actually in a dicey spot, for he'll probably have to share the position with Strickland in 2012-'13, and then in 2013-'14 and 2014-'15 with highly-rated Nate Britt. Yes?

It's a good problem to have; unless it becomes a problem.

Dex can run the offense, LMac at the two, Bullock at the three, McAdoo at the 4, James at the five.

Bench: Paige, PJ, Hubert, Tokoto...wildcard Oriakhi

That team will not be an easy win for anyone.

Paige/Britt should be no problem. Both have already commented publicly they look forward to playing together. And don't forget Hicks is coming with Britt too...

UrinalCake
03-29-2012, 11:32 PM
Dex can run the offense, LMac at the two, Bullock at the three, McAdoo at the 4, James at the five.

Bench: Paige, PJ, Hubert, Tokoto...wildcard Oriakhi

That team will not be an easy win for anyone.

That lineup kind of reminds me of this year's Duke team in that you've got some older guys who have been role players their whole careers and will have to make the transition to being starters. Then you've got some really talented guys but they're younger (McAdoo and James for UNC, Austin for us). So the questions that need to be answered are: can the older guys assume bigger roles? Can the younger guys maintain good chemistry while getting to show their stuff? And most importantly, who will provide leadership?

mgtr
03-29-2012, 11:35 PM
Much of the talk is about Barnes, but I think Marshall will be the best pro. Henson will have the cockiness knocked out of him after he tries a dunk or two against Dwight Howard and others.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-29-2012, 11:48 PM
Much of the talk is about Barnes, but I think Marshall will be the best pro. Henson will have the cockiness knocked out of him after he tries a dunk or two against Dwight Howard and others.

I've been saying for a while Henson has the most upside. He's gonna impact the NBA on both sides of the court with his shot blocking, transition, and mid range face up game.

He's top half of the lottery.

He will have to get stronger, and work on ballhandling if he ever wants to be an elite player.

Devilsfan
03-29-2012, 11:55 PM
They came back this year, and made it all the way to the final eight teams. Nice run boys .

-bdbd
03-29-2012, 11:55 PM
Dex can run the offense, LMac at the two, Bullock at the three, McAdoo at the 4, James at the five.

Bench: Paige, PJ, Hubert, Tokoto...wildcard Oriakhi

That team will not be an easy win for anyone.
Paige/Britt should be no problem. Both have already commented publicly they look forward to playing together. And don't forget Hicks is coming with Britt too...

Not an easy win for anyone? Least of all North Carolina.

But I disagree, I see them AT LEAST getting to double-digit wins....

:rolleyes:

gumbomoop
03-30-2012, 12:04 AM
Dex can run the offense, LMac at the two, Bullock at the three, McAdoo at the 4, James at the five.

Bench: Paige, PJ, Hubert, Tokoto...wildcard Oriakhi

That team will not be an easy win for anyone.

Paige/Britt should be no problem. Both have already commented publicly they look forward to playing together. And don't forget Hicks is coming with Britt too...

You don't actually have to convince me.


.... with both McAdoo and Oriakhi .... I...would put them top 7-8. Behind NCSt, if Calvin Leslie stays. And behind Duke, if Mason stays.

..... with McAdoo but not Oriakhi ... they might fall out of consensus preseason top 10, but not far.

If McAdoo leaves... Heels are in trouble.

What happened to Johnson? Is James actually better?

No McAdoo, big trouble. You disagree?

UrinalCake
03-30-2012, 12:08 AM
They came back this year, and made it all the way to the final eight teams. Nice run boys .

That's a bit like saying Kyle and Nolan came back and made it all the way to the Sweet 16, don't you think? Granted they weren't projected lottery picks, but still, even the most biased observer knows that UNC's season was derailed by injuries.

#1Duke
03-30-2012, 12:20 AM
Much of the talk is about Barnes, but I think Marshall will be the best pro. Henson will have the cockiness knocked out of him after he tries a dunk or two against Dwight Howard and others.

I agree. I see Marshall as having the best future in the NBA. Henson will have to bulk up BIG TIME to pound with the NBA bigs. I see him having many trips to the bench grimacing with a new boo-boo.

duke09hms
03-30-2012, 12:27 AM
I'll be glad to comment on Duke's post presence, just as soon as they get some.

Zing! Haha, this would be funny if it wasn't true :(

juise
03-30-2012, 12:29 AM
My greatest joy in all of this is that Marshall won't break Hurley's assist record. He seems to be the most worthy challenger in quite some time and with UNC's style of play, I think he had an excellent chance in four years. He's an excellent playmaker. It will be interesting to see if he is quick enough to make plays at the next level.

elvis14
03-30-2012, 12:46 AM
I think this is more like what they were thinking...

2504

JP, you have to post that on Facebook. I mean with all the UNC@CH homer that constantly find you there....

CDu
03-30-2012, 07:56 AM
I've been saying for a while Henson has the most upside. He's gonna impact the NBA on both sides of the court with his shot blocking, transition, and mid range face up game.

He's top half of the lottery.

He will have to get stronger, and work on ballhandling if he ever wants to be an elite player.

The draft experts disagree with you. They see him going in the middle of the first round (on the fringe of the lottery). Top half of the lottery is the top 7 picks. I don't see him going ahead of Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist, Robinson, Sullinger, Beal, Barnes, Drummond, Zeller, or Perry Jones III, and there will be a team or two who takes a PG as a position of need.

MChambers
03-30-2012, 08:26 AM
The draft experts disagree with you. They see him going in the middle of the first round (on the fringe of the lottery). Top half of the lottery is the top 7 picks. I don't see him going ahead of Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist, Robinson, Sullinger, Beal, Barnes, Drummond, Zeller, or Perry Jones III, and there will be a team or two who takes a PG as a position of need.

Henson's role in the NBA isn't clear. I think he has to be a 4, because he's way too thin to be a 5, and he doesn't have the perimeter skills to be a 3 (remember 2010). He's also a very poor free throw shooter. He'll probably be a decent 4, but will have problems with many of the strong post players.

davekay1971
03-30-2012, 08:40 AM
I think it hurts Henson that he's been in college for 3 years and really hasn't put on any significant strength. He's got a ton of talent and his defense is great, but the NBA guys have to look at him and think, "He's not 18 anymore, and he's not putting on any muscle...can he get the strength he's going to need to defend an NBA 4?" I think his upside remains huge - if he puts on some muscle and works on his mid-range game.

Agreed that Marshall may end up being the best of the 3 in the pros. He's not as strong as Jason Kidd (yet), but he's got the ability to become a player like Kidd - not super quick, offense is spotty, but such an amazing passer.

Indoor66
03-30-2012, 08:48 AM
I'm not surprised these players are heading for the NBA, it's the way it is in today's game. Yea, we're bummed that we didn't get to see them compete for a championship without all the injuries to the team, but that's also the way it goes, sometimes.

I am actually looking forward to next year. Watching players develop is probably my favorite part of following college ball.

Joel James could be the key player if McAdoo decides to stay. I like what I see coming from him, a true back to the basket post player. He's a little raw, but has the size we want and his game looks to be a perfect fit for UNC.

Oriakhi would be an immediate help, of course, and let James develop slower, but if James has to play, UNC will have some post play.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hbDz1OfIpaI

Hey Wheat, is he the next Bersticker?

miramar
03-30-2012, 09:04 AM
Much of the talk is about Barnes, but I think Marshall will be the best pro. Henson will have the cockiness knocked out of him after he tries a dunk or two against Dwight Howard and others.

Didn't you read the Pigeon's quote on the illustrious NBA career he's going to have? Or did he mean illustrative since he will demonstrate the dangers of hype, self absorption, and hubris?


“I’m honored and blessed to have the opportunity to compete in the NBA,” Barnes said in a statement. “The love and respect I have for basketball fuel the drive toward my ultimate goal — to experience an illustrious career in the NBA.”

Read more: The Herald-Sun - Barnes Henson Marshall to enter NBA draft

theAlaskanBear
03-30-2012, 09:20 AM
Didn't you read the Pigeon's quote on the illustrious NBA career he's going to have? Or did he mean illustrative since he will demonstrate the dangers of hype, self absorption, and hubris?


“I’m honored and blessed to have the opportunity to compete in the NBA,” Barnes said in a statement. “The love and respect I have for basketball fuel the drive toward my ultimate goal — to experience an illustrious career in the NBA.”

Read more: The Herald-Sun - Barnes Henson Marshall to enter NBA draft

Lol, I know Barnes is a smart guy, but the word that comes to mind when I hear quotes from him...."tool". If he truely felt honored and blessed to compete in the NBA, eat some humble pie and stop talking about how good you are going to be...

ChillinDuke
03-30-2012, 09:25 AM
Dex can run the offense, LMac at the two, Bullock at the three, McAdoo at the 4, James at the five.

Bench: Paige, PJ, Hubert, Tokoto...wildcard Oriakhi

That team will not be an easy win for anyone.

Paige/Britt should be no problem. Both have already commented publicly they look forward to playing together. And don't forget Hicks is coming with Britt too...

Wheat, no disrespect at all (I value your perspective on UNC things), but that team does not strike fear into me. I do think Strickland and Bullock are nice pieces, and McAdoo clearly has a lot of talent. I think Hairston will have a nice year next year as well.

But UNC will almost never be an "easy" win for anyone. That said, I don't think they'll be a difficult win for most Top-10 maybe even Top-20 teams. Am I completely off base here (question directed at Wheat and everyone)?

To go from Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall (four legitimately great players) as a Top-5 team (I'll give them Top-3), to the team listed above...I mean, I'm not sold. That looks like a Top-25 team to me. Maybe I'm underselling them, I guess?

James: Completely unproven.
McAdoo: Good player.
Bullock: Nice, not great.
MacDonald: Meh.
Strickland: Nice, not great.

A bunch of young guys on the bench / no proven depth.

Feel free to tell me I'm living under a rock. But this does not seem like a surefire Top-3 ACC team given the up-and-coming squads around here. Let alone a team challenging for the ACC Championship as UNC is traditionally accustomed to.

If McAdoo doesn't come back...oh dear.

- Chillin

CDu
03-30-2012, 09:48 AM
Wheat, no disrespect at all (I value your perspective on UNC things), but that team does not strike fear into me. I do think Strickland and Bullock are nice pieces, and McAdoo clearly has a lot of talent. I think Hairston will have a nice year next year as well.

But UNC will almost never be an "easy" win for anyone. That said, I don't think they'll be a difficult win for most Top-10 maybe even Top-20 teams. Am I completely off base here (question directed at Wheat and everyone)?

To go from Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall (four legitimately great players) as a Top-5 team (I'll give them Top-3), to the team listed above...I mean, I'm not sold. That looks like a Top-25 team to me. Maybe I'm underselling them, I guess?

James: Completely unproven.
McAdoo: Good player.
Bullock: Nice, not great.
MacDonald: Meh.
Strickland: Nice, not great.

A bunch of young guys on the bench / no proven depth.

Feel free to tell me I'm living under a rock. But this does not seem like a surefire Top-3 ACC team given the up-and-coming squads around here. Let alone a team challenging for the ACC Championship as UNC is traditionally accustomed to.

If McAdoo doesn't come back...oh dear.

- Chillin

That team would need McAdoo to REALLY step up next year. As you said, they'll be tough to beat because they'll be able to play uptempo with two fast, capable ballhandlers in Strickland and Paige. They'll have (potentially) 3 good 3pt shooters and the depth and length to pressure on the wings. And they'll have lots of bodies inside if nothing else. But you're right. Unless McAdoo makes great strides as a player, there isn't a player on the floor that you have to really gameplan against, which is in stark contrast to the past decade of UNC teams save for maybe 2009.

By virtue of the mediocrity in college basketball, they'd still be upper-tier in the ACC and a sure-fire top-20 team. Maybe even top-10 if McAdoo steps up (my tip of the cap to you, gumbomoop). But unless McAdoo is ready to be a star or the perimeter guys make big leaps, it's just a good basketball team and not too much more. It's not a team that I'd see threatening the Final Four.

And if McAdoo doesn't come back, you're right. That's a middle-of-the-road ACC team.

MChambers
03-30-2012, 09:48 AM
Wheat, no disrespect at all (I value your perspective on UNC things), but that team does not strike fear into me. I do think Strickland and Bullock are nice pieces, and McAdoo clearly has a lot of talent. I think Hairston will have a nice year next year as well.

But UNC will almost never be an "easy" win for anyone. That said, I don't think they'll be a difficult win for most Top-10 maybe even Top-20 teams. Am I completely off base here (question directed at Wheat and everyone)?

To go from Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall (four legitimately great players) as a Top-5 team (I'll give them Top-3), to the team listed above...I mean, I'm not sold. That looks like a Top-25 team to me. Maybe I'm underselling them, I guess?

James: Completely unproven.
McAdoo: Good player.
Bullock: Nice, not great.
MacDonald: Meh.
Strickland: Nice, not great.

A bunch of young guys on the bench / no proven depth.

Feel free to tell me I'm living under a rock. But this does not seem like a surefire Top-3 ACC team given the up-and-coming squads around here. Let alone a team challenging for the ACC Championship as UNC is traditionally accustomed to.

If McAdoo doesn't come back...oh dear.

- Chillin

I agree. McAdoo is key. He's the only proven inside player. I'm not sold on Strickland as a starting point guard (I still remember the humor of watching him play point in 2010). Strickland's a very good defender and lightning fast, but can't shoot and isn't a good distributor.

So I see the team as having a very weak inside game, lots of good, but not great, wing players (probably too many), and a real question mark at point. Could have another shot at the NIT Championship.

If McAdoo comes back, I think the inside game is good enough to combine with the wings to put a good team on the floor, but I'm still not sold at the point.

FerryFor50
03-30-2012, 09:54 AM
That team would need McAdoo to REALLY step up next year. As you said, they'll be tough to beat because they'll be able to play uptempo with two fast, capable ballhandlers in Strickland and Paige. They'll have (potentially) 3 good 3pt shooters and the depth and length to pressure on the wings. And they'll have lots of bodies inside if nothing else. But you're right. Unless McAdoo makes great strides as a player, there isn't a player on the floor that you have to really gameplan against, which is in stark contrast to the past decade of UNC teams save for maybe 2009.

By virtue of the mediocrity in college basketball, they'd still be upper-tier in the ACC and a sure-fire top-20 team. Maybe even top-10 if McAdoo steps up (my tip of the cap to you, gumbomoop). But unless McAdoo is ready to be a star or the perimeter guys make big leaps, it's just a good basketball team and not too much more. It's not a team that I'd see threatening the Final Four.

And if McAdoo doesn't come back, you're right. That's a middle-of-the-road ACC team.

You mean they'll have 3 point shooters who can't create their own shots?

Hmm.... sounds familiar.

Hairston and Bullock were only effective as spot up shooters and on the glass. They weren't really guys who were going to beat you off the dribble or shoot pull up jumpers.

I see them struggling a bit next year with having to be primary ball handlers.

CDu
03-30-2012, 10:00 AM
You mean they'll have 3 point shooters who can't create their own shots?

Hmm.... sounds familiar.

Hairston and Bullock were only effective as spot up shooters and on the glass. They weren't really guys who were going to beat you off the dribble or shoot pull up jumpers.

I see them struggling a bit next year with having to be primary ball handlers.

They won't have to be primary ballhandlers, though. Strickland and Paige are both very capable ballhandlers, so Bullock and Hairston won't be asked to do much differently than they did this year - they'll just be asked to do it better and more consistently.

I suspect UNC will put the ball in Strickland's and Paige's hands and say "run, run, run." That'll make life much easier for everyone. And in the half court, they'll feed the post, run their screens, and have the PGs carry the load. They won't be as good as with Marshall, obviously.

FerryFor50
03-30-2012, 10:02 AM
They won't have to be primary ballhandlers, though. Strickland and Paige are both very capable ballhandlers, so Bullock and Hairston won't be asked to do much differently than they did this year - they'll just be asked to do it better and more consistently.

I suspect UNC will put the ball in Strickland's and Paige's hands and say "run, run, run." That'll make life much easier for everyone. And in the half court, they'll feed the post, run their screens, and have the PGs carry the load. They won't be as good as with Marshall, obviously.

I think they'll try running the offense through Bullock and Hairston some, though. Until they realize what a bad idea that is... :)

CDu
03-30-2012, 10:07 AM
I think they'll try running the offense through Bullock and Hairston some, though. Until they realize what a bad idea that is... :)

I think they'll run it like they always have - with the wings being primarily catch and shoot or catch and one dribble players. Ellington and Green weren't very good ballhandlers and they did fine. Jawad Williams couldn't dribble at all and he was a double-figure scorer. Barnes and Bullock couldn't dribble either.

The wing players in UNC's system are rarely asked to do more than run around screens, catch-and-shoot, run the floor and finish in transition on offense and pressure the passing lanes on defense. The pressure has always been on the PG and the bigs to make that team go. The same will be true next year.

gumbomoop
03-30-2012, 10:12 AM
Wheat, no disrespect at all (I value your perspective on UNC things), but that team does not strike fear into me. I do think Strickland and Bullock are nice pieces, and McAdoo clearly has a lot of talent. I think Hairston will have a nice year next year as well.

But UNC will almost never be an "easy" win for anyone. That said, I don't think they'll be a difficult win for most Top-10 maybe even Top-20 teams. Am I completely off base here (question directed at Wheat and everyone)?

To go from Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall (four legitimately great players) as a Top-5 team (I'll give them Top-3), to the team listed above...I mean, I'm not sold. That looks like a Top-25 team to me. Maybe I'm underselling them, I guess?

James: Completely unproven.
McAdoo: Good player.
Bullock: Nice, not great.
MacDonald: Meh.
Strickland: Nice, not great.

A bunch of young guys on the bench / no proven depth.

Feel free to tell me I'm living under a rock. But this does not seem like a surefire Top-3 ACC team given the up-and-coming squads around here. Let alone a team challenging for the ACC Championship as UNC is traditionally accustomed to.

If McAdoo doesn't come back...oh dear.

- Chillin

I lean toward Wheat in this mini-debate, because I think you are underselling them, if McAdoo returns. Should McAdoo leave [yes, please], then you're right - "oh dear" - even if Wheat comes back and says, "Heels will do fine." Not so fine. Nerlens Noel comes to CH? No clue. We'll have to wait on McAdoo.

Meanwhile, judging the debate based specifically on the assumption that McAdoo stays, the difference is Wheat's assertion - "This team will not be an easy win for anyone" - v. your assertion - "I don't think they'll be a difficult win for most Top-10 maybe even Top-20 teams." Your "even Top-20" strikes me as way-underselling, as I infer you'd put them - with McAdoo - around #30-35. Maybe the essence of my lean toward Wheat's prognostication actually revolves around my view of McAdoo as an excellent-to-great player next season; whereas you give him only ... "good player."

Presumably you and maybe others [Edit: to take into account several posts that were posted as I was typing] think I'm overselling McAdoo. Fair enough. Again, we'll have to wait on McAdoo. I hope in goes in the upcoming NBA lottery, ahead of Barnes, which is where he should land. My advice to James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run. [Edit: Your indulgence, please. Join me, won't you, in sending out this very vibe to James Michael for the next week or so: take some of Harrison's money and run. See how happy that would make so many of us? Please.]

I agree with Wheat that a McAdoo-led Heels would be a difficult test for any of next season's #5, 6, 9, 11, 14, 17 teams. Doesn't mean Heels would win all such games, but they'd win some, and challenge in all.

OldPhiKap
03-30-2012, 10:36 AM
Duke lost a lot coming into this year, and fell all the way to second place in the regular season conference race by a last-game loss.

Carolina will lose a lot going into next year, and fall all the way to second or third place in the conference race with a chance to compete for the regular season crown.

A lot depends on McAdoo, and how well they gel around the new point guard.

CDu
03-30-2012, 10:36 AM
Presumably you [and likely others.... CDu, you out there?] think I'm overselling McAdoo. Fair enough. Again, we'll have to wait on McAdoo. I hope in goes in the upcoming NBA lottery, ahead of Barnes, which is where he should land. My advice to James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run.

We've definitely had our back and forth on McAdoo, so I want to clarify my position. I think my predictions on McAdoo last year were spot on. Some people (not saying it was you, gumbo - I really don't remember who) were suggesting McAdoo was the best freshman entering the ACC and that he might even threaten for an All-ACC spot. I said I wasn't impressed and that I felt he'd be a bit player as a freshman. Even though UNC needed a strong contributor from the 3rd big, McAdoo wasn't ready to contribute early. And even at the end of the season (when he was forced into big minutes because of the Henson injury) he wasn't exactly a force against decent competition (9 and 2 against NCSU in 27 min, 4 and 8 against FSU in 28 min, 9 and 4 against Creighton in 24 min, 15 and 4 against Kansas - mostly on breakaways - in 19 min).

The reason I wasn't high on him last year was because he had shown no ability to create his own shot in the post. Nearly everything was on off-ball/transition stuff (finishing fast breaks, running to the rim to follow missed shots). At the college game, you aren't a star to me unless you can consistently score in the half court, and McAdoo didn't show me any evidence of that this year. Aside from an occasional jumper everything he did was of the off-ball/transition variety.

As for next year, I'm not sure what he'll do if he comes back. He certainly has the size and athleticism to be effective as a college PF. The question is if he has the post game. UNC will need him to be the go-to scorer, and that's not something he's done at the college level. If he can expand his game this offseason (certainly a possibility) I agree that he could be a force for them. But based on what I've seen, I think it's a lot to ask to expect him to thrive as the focal point of the offense next year. But whatever he does next year has no bearing on my opinion of him last year (which was simply that he wasn't going to be a stud for them as a freshman).

It's also why I have questions about him in the NBA. He's an undersized PF with no range, no ballhandling skills, and no proven offensive moves.

Kedsy
03-30-2012, 10:51 AM
Unless McAdoo makes great strides as a player, there isn't a player on the floor that you have to really gameplan against, which is in stark contrast to the past decade of UNC teams save for maybe 2009.

You mean 2010?

CDu
03-30-2012, 10:53 AM
You mean 2010?

Ugghh. Where is my brain today? Twice in a row with dumb dumb statements (one more than usual!). Yes, 2010. The post-Hansbrough year.

niveklaen
03-30-2012, 10:56 AM
Duke lost a lot coming into this year, and fell all the way to second place in the regular season conference race by a last-game loss.

Carolina will lose a lot going into next year, and fall all the way to second or third place in the conference race with a chance to compete for the regular season crown.

A lot depends on McAdoo, and how well they gel around the new point guard.

Duke lost 2 first round picks, and 1 early 2nd round pick. UNC is losing 4 likely first round picks.
Duke returned 3 rotation bigs, UNC returns 1 rotation big.
Duke returned Coach K, UNC returns Roy.

When Duke has a down/rebuilding year, we are a 2 seed. When UNC has one they're in the NIT.

Kedsy
03-30-2012, 11:03 AM
When Duke has a down/rebuilding year, we are a 2 seed. When UNC has one they're in the NIT.

The universe is older than three years. UNC also had a down/rebuilding year in 2006, and ended up a 3 seed. In 2007, Duke had the down/rebuilding year and, while we did make the NCAAT, it wasn't exactly a resounding success for us.

OldPhiKap
03-30-2012, 11:06 AM
When Duke has a down/rebuilding year, we are a 2 seed. When UNC has one they're in the NIT.

Love the fire, and sure hope you're right. This old anvil has seen many hammers, though.

yancem
03-30-2012, 11:06 AM
We've definitely had our back and forth on McAdoo, so I want to clarify my position. I think my predictions on McAdoo last year were spot on. Some people (not saying it was you, gumbo - I really don't remember who) were suggesting McAdoo was the best freshman entering the ACC and that he might even threaten for an All-ACC spot. I said I wasn't impressed and that I felt he'd be a bit player as a freshman. Even though UNC needed a strong contributor from the 3rd big, McAdoo wasn't ready to contribute early. And even at the end of the season (when he was forced into big minutes because of the Henson injury) he wasn't exactly a force against decent competition (9 and 2 against NCSU in 27 min, 4 and 8 against FSU in 28 min, 9 and 4 against Creighton in 24 min, 15 and 4 against Kansas - mostly on breakaways - in 19 min).

The reason I wasn't high on him last year was because he had shown no ability to create his own shot in the post. Nearly everything was on off-ball/transition stuff (finishing fast breaks, running to the rim to follow missed shots). At the college game, you aren't a star to me unless you can consistently score in the half court, and McAdoo didn't show me any evidence of that this year. Aside from an occasional jumper everything he did was of the off-ball/transition variety.

As for next year, I'm not sure what he'll do if he comes back. He certainly has the size and athleticism to be effective as a college PF. The question is if he has the post game. UNC will need him to be the go-to scorer, and that's not something he's done at the college level. If he can expand his game this offseason (certainly a possibility) I agree that he could be a force for them. But based on what I've seen, I think it's a lot to ask to expect him to thrive as the focal point of the offense next year. But whatever he does next year has no bearing on my opinion of him last year (which was simply that he wasn't going to be a stud for them as a freshman).

It's also why I have questions about him in the NBA. He's an undersized PF with no range, no ballhandling skills, and no proven offensive moves.

To be completely honest, how is he different than Marvin Williams? I think that there are a lot of similarities between McAdoo and Williams both in skill, athleticism, physicality and usage as a freshman. From what I have seen from Williams in the nba, he is basically the same player now as he was his rookie year. It would be interesting to see McAdoo return to unc just to compare results of his career path to Williams. By coming back does he expand his game and improve to the point that he can be more than a roll player in the nba or does he expose his weaknesses, drop in the draft and end up with Williams' career but with a smaller initial contract. Of course Ed Davis wasn't much different from these two and he ended up demonstrating the latter scenario (at least from a developmental stand point, the nba does love it's potential).

FerryFor50
03-30-2012, 11:08 AM
Duke returned Coach K, UNC returns Roy.

When Duke has a down/rebuilding year, we are a 2 seed. When UNC has one they're in the NIT.

Cause, meet effect. :)

FerryFor50
03-30-2012, 11:09 AM
To be completely honest, how is he different than Marvin Williams? I think that there are a lot of similarities between McAdoo and Williams both in skill, athleticism, physicality and usage as a freshman. From what I have seen from Williams in the nba, he is basically the same player now as he was his rookie year. It would be interesting to see McAdoo return to unc just to compare results of his career path to Williams. By coming back does he expand his game and improve to the point that he can be more than a roll player in the nba or does he expose his weaknesses, drop in the draft and end up with Williams' career but with a smaller initial contract. Of course Ed Davis wasn't much different from these two and he ended up demonstrating the latter scenario (at least from a developmental stand point, the nba does love it's potential).

Difference is that Marvin Williams won a National Championship as a freshman and had no real reason to stick around after that....

CDu
03-30-2012, 11:12 AM
To be completely honest, how is he different than Marvin Williams? I think that there are a lot of similarities between McAdoo and Williams both in skill, athleticism, physicality and usage as a freshman. From what I have seen from Williams in the nba, he is basically the same player now as he was his rookie year. It would be interesting to see McAdoo return to unc just to compare results of his career path to Williams. By coming back does he expand his game and improve to the point that he can be more than a roll player in the nba or does he expose his weaknesses, drop in the draft and end up with Williams' career but with a smaller initial contract. Of course Ed Davis wasn't much different from these two and he ended up demonstrating the latter scenario (at least from a developmental stand point, the nba does love it's potential).

I'd say he's pretty different from Marvin Williams. Williams was a much better producer in his one year of college despite somewhat similar circumstances. He averaged 22.2 mpg, 11.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 50.6 fg%, 43.2 3pt%, 84.7 ft%. McAdoo averaged 15.6 mpg, 6.1 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 43.4 fg%, 0.0 3pt%, 63.8 ft%. They are of similar size and athleticism, but Williams pretty clearly showed the skill set of a SF whereas McAdoo has showed no real offensive game. While Williams hasn't really developed beyond the player he was coming out, he at least already had a clearly-defined position and skillset. With McAdoo, the hope is that he has that skill set. The reality is that he hasn't shown any of it.

ChillinDuke
03-30-2012, 11:30 AM
Duke lost 2 first round picks, and 1 early 2nd round pick. UNC is losing 4 likely first round picks.
Duke returned 3 rotation bigs, UNC returns 1 rotation big.
Duke returned Coach K, UNC returns Roy.

When Duke has a down/rebuilding year, we are a 2 seed. When UNC has one they're in the NIT.

To emphasize, UNC is losing 3 and maybe 4 lottery picks.

Not celebrating it as if this will make UNC NIT-bound. But they are losing a considerable amount more than Duke lost last year, and that is no slight to Nolan, Kyle, or Kyrie.

- Chillin

ChillinDuke
03-30-2012, 11:38 AM
I lean toward Wheat in this mini-debate, because I think you are underselling them, if McAdoo returns. Should McAdoo leave [yes, please], then you're right - "oh dear" - even if Wheat comes back and says, "Heels will do fine." Not so fine. Nerlens Noel comes to CH? No clue. We'll have to wait on McAdoo.

Meanwhile, judging the debate based specifically on the assumption that McAdoo stays, the difference is Wheat's assertion - "This team will not be an easy win for anyone" - v. your assertion - "I don't think they'll be a difficult win for most Top-10 maybe even Top-20 teams." Your "even Top-20" strikes me as way-underselling, as I infer you'd put them - with McAdoo - around #30-35. Maybe the essence of my lean toward Wheat's prognostication actually revolves around my view of McAdoo as an excellent-to-great player next season; whereas you give him only ... "good player."

Presumably you and maybe others [Edit: to take into account several posts that were posted as I was typing] think I'm overselling McAdoo. Fair enough. Again, we'll have to wait on McAdoo. I hope in goes in the upcoming NBA lottery, ahead of Barnes, which is where he should land. My advice to James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run. [Edit: Your indulgence, please. Join me, won't you, in sending out this very vibe to James Michael for the next week or so: take some of Harrison's money and run. See how happy that would make so many of us? Please.]

I agree with Wheat that a McAdoo-led Heels would be a difficult test for any of next season's #5, 6, 9, 11, 14, 17 teams. Doesn't mean Heels would win all such games, but they'd win some, and challenge in all.

You may very well be right. I haven't formed enough of an opinion on McAdoo to weigh in with any sort of conviction.

I wouldn't say #30-35. I was thinking more of them being in the Top-20, meaning that they would be in the mix in Top-20 games, losing some handily and winning some, perhaps handily.

In the end I agree that a McAdoo-led UNC team will be good, but I'm not sure they will challenge in all Top-20 games.

And for the record, I think they will inevitably find a way to battle for the ACC crown next year. But at least on paper, there's some evidence that it could be a struggle.

- Chillin

Edit: Apologies for taking this thread off topic there a bit. Very interested to see what McAdoo decides.

Duvall
03-30-2012, 11:43 AM
You may very well be right. I haven't formed enough of an opinion on McAdoo to weigh in with any sort of conviction.

I wouldn't say #30-35. I was thinking more of them being in the Top-20, meaning that they would be in the mix in Top-20 games, losing some handily and winning some, perhaps handily.

In the end I agree that a McAdoo-led UNC team will be good, but I'm not sure they will challenge in all Top-20 games.
.

That's still kind of optimistic. Didn't UNC end up with a losing record against top-25 teams this past season?

Reilly
03-30-2012, 11:44 AM
To emphasize, UNC is losing 3 and maybe 4 lottery picks.

...

In the 1999 draft, Duke lost the #1, #11, #13 and #14 overall picks .....

... the next year (2000), Duke won the ACC regular season, ACC Tourney, and made it to the sweet 16.

[We did start 0-2, however.].

gumbomoop
03-30-2012, 11:53 AM
We've definitely had our back and forth on McAdoo, so I want to clarify my position. I think my predictions on McAdoo last year were spot on. Some people (not saying it was you, gumbo - I really don't remember who) were suggesting McAdoo was the best freshman entering the ACC and that he might even threaten for an All-ACC spot.

Well, clarifying from my end, I'm one of the guilty, maybe the guiltiest, at hyping McAdoo.. I don't think I said he'd be 1st team all-ACC, but I did think him [and posted as much] the 2d-best frosh in the country, after Anthony Davis. But because the Heels were loaded, I didn't think he'd start. I thought he'd be an immediate impact player, and described him as "the next great Heel" [meaning 2012-'13]. He didn't make all-ACC frosh team, but he's better than everyone who did, save, possibly, Rivers. He was playing behind Zeller and Henson, of course.

I looked pretty dumb [not for the very first time] re immediate impact, and probably should have posted midway through the season that CDu and other McAdoo-skeptics were right. But I don't recall having done so; probably lying low, and certainly puzzled as to why I messed up.

Now, I think it's pretty clear he came on strong in last part of season, I guess because he got more time due to Henson's injury, and simply because it took him some time to figure things out. Charles Barkley became his biggest [.....] booster, saying repeatedly during the NCAAT that McAdoo was Heels' best player. I don't think he meant "actually playing the best," maybe something more like "most talent, best NBA prospect."

I'm hurried, and see several posts on McAdoo and Heels next season, so I'll sign off and come back later. James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run.

oldnavy
03-30-2012, 11:56 AM
One question I always have with UNC teams is leadership. Who of the players coming back will step up into a leadership role? The obvious candidates are Strickland, and or McDonald since they have been around a little longer. Bullock?? Maybe, but I still remember his comments about Coach K and he doesn't impress me as someone who can hold others in check since he seems to have some trouble holding his own tounge.

The 2009 UNC team had lots and lots of talent, but even more important they had a on the court leader in Hansbrough that willed his way to winning more often than not.

The 2010 UNC team imploded mainly due to the void left by Hansbrough's leadership IMO. Of course they lost a lot of talent, but they still should have been much better than they played.

I think having a leader on the court for UNC is very important... because, well you know what I would say about Ol Roy's ability to manage a game...

Where will that type of fire come from next year for UNC, and for that matter Duke?

Our obvious choices would be Curry, and or Kelly and certainly Mason if he comes back.... don't see Dawkins taking that role on personally.

dukedoc
03-30-2012, 12:06 PM
Our obvious choices would be Curry, and or Kelly and certainly Mason if he comes back.... don't see Dawkins taking that role on personally.

I hope one or more of them take up the mantle of leadership, but I have my doubts than any of them will be fiery and vocal like the classic on-court leader we all conjure in our minds. Perhaps they have it in them and were simply muted because of other stronger personalities such as Austin, but I'm not so sure. Their personalities don't seem to include the vocal, confident, charismatic qualities that you'd like to see.

I firmly believe you can lead by example, though, and so hopefully if they can really focus themselves and mount individual intensity from end to end, it'll trickle down to the youngins. Things can change dramatically year to year, so I'm hoping we'll see our seniors really rise to the challenge.

Kedsy
03-30-2012, 12:17 PM
Where will that type of fire come from next year for UNC, and for that matter Duke?

Our obvious choices would be Curry, and or Kelly and certainly Mason if he comes back.... don't see Dawkins taking that role on personally.

Tyler Thornton?

MChambers
03-30-2012, 12:17 PM
I hope one or more of them take up the mantle of leadership, but I have my doubts than any of them will be fiery and vocal like the classic on-court leader we all conjure in our minds. Perhaps they have it in them and were simply muted because of other stronger personalities such as Austin, but I'm not so sure. Their personalities don't seem to include the vocal, confident, charismatic qualities that you'd like to see.

I firmly believe you can lead by example, though, and so hopefully if they can really focus themselves and mount individual intensity from end to end, it'll trickle down to the youngins. Things can change dramatically year to year, so I'm hoping we'll see our seniors really rise to the challenge.

Thornton is the obvious choice. The coaches and others who watched practice said so. I think the question is whether others join him.

I certainly agree with leading by example, but I think Coach K uses the term to include on court communication.

UrinalCake
03-30-2012, 12:20 PM
A question for Heels fans to knash their teeth over: If Henson never got injured, and therefore McAdoo never got the additional playing time, would we even be having this discussion about him leaving?

CDu
03-30-2012, 12:30 PM
Well, clarifying from my end, I'm one of the guilty, maybe the guiltiest, at hyping McAdoo.. I don't think I said he'd be 1st team all-ACC, but I did think him [and posted as much] the 2d-best frosh in the country, after Anthony Davis. But because the Heels were loaded, I didn't think he'd start. I thought he'd be an immediate impact player, and described him as "the next great Heel" [meaning 2012-'13]. He didn't make all-ACC frosh team, but he's better than everyone who did, save, possibly, Rivers. He was playing behind Zeller and Henson, of course.

I looked pretty dumb [not for the very first time] re immediate impact, and probably should have posted midway through the season that CDu and other McAdoo-skeptics were right. But I don't recall having done so; probably lying low, and certainly puzzled as to why I messed up.

In re-reading, I hope my post didn't come across as calling you out or that I was trying to brag. I'm probably running a similar risk with Sulaimon this year as you with McAdoo, and I wildly missed on Paulus (I was drooling over his passing prowess in his McDonald's game) and McRoberts (oh the athleticism and skills!). I just wanted to clarify that I don't necessarily think you are wrong about McAdoo moving forward. He certainly has the size and athleticism to be a star next year if he returns. So I think we agree on the potential, just perhaps not on the likelihood of realization.


Now, I think it's pretty clear he came on strong in last part of season, I guess because he got more time due to Henson's injury, and simply because it took him some time to figure things out. Charles Barkley became his biggest [.....] booster, saying repeatedly during the NCAAT that McAdoo was Heels' best player. I don't think he meant "actually playing the best," maybe something more like "most talent, best NBA prospect."

I'm hurried, and see several posts on McAdoo and Heels next season, so I'll sign off and come back later. James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run.

My guess is that Barkley meant prospect, because Zeller was pretty clearly their best player. I'm not sure I agree with Barkley, either, as I still haven't seen the actual offensive skills (the athleticism, sure, but not the skills) to play SF in the NBA. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before, and Barkley does at times show a good eye for talent.

In any case, I most certainly agree with your last sentence. I don't want McAdoo to even have the chance to realize his potential in a UNC uniform.

oldnavy
03-30-2012, 12:40 PM
Tyler Thornton?

Not sure why I missed that very obvious choice... of course Tyler could be that player, in fact he probably has the leg up since he seems to have taken on that role already this year. TT seems to be the guy that does it both with defense, and vocally.

flyingdutchdevil
03-30-2012, 12:41 PM
Thornton is the obvious choice. The coaches and others who watched practice said so. I think the question is whether others join him.

I certainly agree with leading by example, but I think Coach K uses the term to include on court communication.

I wholeheartedly agree that Thornton is our vocal leader. But, IMO, I don't see Thornton starting next year. I love his tenacity, his fight, and his ability to hit a clutch shot. But Cook is significantly more talented on the offensive end and really seems to know how to find players. Cook's defense needs to improve, but he wasn't 100% this year and next year I feel we'll see a whole different player. NOTE: This isn't a knock on Thornton but rather confidence in Cook's ability to be our best PG. It will be a battle of PGs come October and November, and I know that Thornton don't just hand over the starting spot. It's a luxury to have two competent PGs with completely different skill sets.

So, this begs the question: can our most vocal leader be a sixth/seventh man? In practices, I certainly believe so. But during games, especially when the game is on the line? That's why I really like Curry as our vocal leader. He started doing some of it this year, but I feel that is something that Coach K is absolutely going to pound into him in the off-season.

_Gary
03-30-2012, 12:44 PM
My guess is that Barkley meant prospect, because Zeller was pretty clearly their best player. I'm not sure I agree with Barkley, either, as I still haven't seen the actual offensive skills (the athleticism, sure, but not the skills) to play SF in the NBA. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before, and Barkley does at times show a good eye for talent.

Barkley was definitely talking about "prospect", not the best player at UNC. He specifically thinks that McAdoo has the best body of the UNC players (i.e. the most pro-ready body).

CDu
03-30-2012, 12:47 PM
Barkley was definitely talking about "prospect", not the best player at UNC. He specifically thinks that McAdoo has the best body of the UNC players (i.e. the most pro-ready body).

I'd say he and Barnes both have "NBA bodies," so I agree with Barkley there. Zeller is a pretty solid NBA body too, though he can probably add another 15 lbs of muscle. But McAdoo absolutely has an NBA body. It's just a question of NBA skills.

phaedrus
03-30-2012, 12:49 PM
To emphasize, UNC is losing 3 and maybe 4 lottery picks.

Not celebrating it as if this will make UNC NIT-bound. But they are losing a considerable amount more than Duke lost last year, and that is no slight to Nolan, Kyle, or Kyrie.

- Chillin

I think you're flat-out wrong. UNC's lottery picks are better NBA prospects than Kyle and Nolan. But Kyle and Nolan scored 4300 points in college, won a Final Four MVP, an ACC MVP, and Nolan was (as I recall) essentially last year's runner-up for NPOY. Kyle left with one of the best all-around statistical careers in Duke history, and last year, Nolan had one of the best seasons ever by a Duke player. Of course, they also won a national championship. In short, they are two of Duke's all-time greats. And Kyrie was an even better player than both of them.

UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.

_Gary
03-30-2012, 12:50 PM
I wholeheartedly agree that Thornton is our vocal leader. But, IMO, I don't see Thornton starting next year. I love his tenacity, his fight, and his ability to hit a clutch shot. But Cook is significantly more talented on the offensive end and really seems to know how to find players. Cook's defense needs to improve, but he wasn't 100% this year and next year I feel we'll see a whole different player. NOTE: This isn't a knock on Thornton but rather confidence in Cook's ability to be our best PG. It will be a battle of PGs come October and November, and I know that Thornton don't just hand over the starting spot. It's a luxury to have two competent PGs with completely different skill sets.

So, this begs the question: can our most vocal leader be a sixth/seventh man? In practices, I certainly believe so. But during games, especially when the game is on the line?

This I completely agree with. I love Tyler's leadership and intensity, but I honestly believe Quinn is our best option at the point because he has the natural abilities to do more offensively than either Tyler or Seth. If we could morph all three of those players into one PG we'd have an unstoppable player. But we can't do that so we'll have to see how it shakes out this off season.

MChambers
03-30-2012, 12:51 PM
Barkley was definitely talking about "prospect", not the best player at UNC. He specifically thinks that McAdoo has the best body of the UNC players (i.e. the most pro-ready body).
Hard for me to take Barkley seriously on anything, but especially on bodies. Does he mean that McAdoo doesn't need to go on a Weight Watchers diet?

ChillinDuke
03-30-2012, 12:53 PM
I think you're flat-out wrong. UNC's lottery picks are better NBA prospects than Kyle and Nolan. But Kyle and Nolan scored 4300 points in college, won a Final Four MVP, an ACC MVP, and Nolan was (as I recall) essentially last year's runner-up for NPOY. Kyle left with one of the best all-around statistical careers in Duke history, and last year, Nolan had one of the best seasons ever by a Duke player. Of course, they also won a national championship. In short, they are two of Duke's all-time greats. And Kyrie was an even better player than both of them.

UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.

From a historical/statistical-based standpoint, sure. And I love Nolan, Kyle, and Kyrie just as much as the next Duke fan.

From a talent standpoint, I would have to disagree. UNC is losing more. If for no other reason than it's 4 players to 3.

Obviously if Barnes stayed four years, his numbers would stack up to Kyle or Nolan. He didn't stay, though. Doesn't mean they aren't losing a ton.

- Chillin

Duvall
03-30-2012, 12:57 PM
I think you're flat-out wrong. UNC's lottery picks are better NBA prospects than Kyle and Nolan. But Kyle and Nolan scored 4300 points in college, won a Final Four MVP, an ACC MVP, and Nolan was (as I recall) essentially last year's runner-up for NPOY. Kyle left with one of the best all-around statistical careers in Duke history, and last year, Nolan had one of the best seasons ever by a Duke player. Of course, they also won a national championship. In short, they are two of Duke's all-time greats. And Kyrie was an even better player than both of them.

UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.

All good points, but it is important to remember that UNC is losing more players total. Four of the top five players in minutes per game last season are leaving, with McAdoo still having a chance to make it five of the top seven. UNC could be looking at replacing an entire rotation except for three returning players that play the same position, and two of them coming off serious knee injuries.

oldnavy
03-30-2012, 01:01 PM
All good points, but it is important to remember that UNC is losing more players total. Four of the top five players in minutes per game last season are leaving, with McAdoo still having a chance to make it five of the top seven. UNC could be looking at replacing an entire rotation except for three returning players that play the same position, and two of them coming off serious knee injuries.

Just reading this post brought a smile to my face. :)

TexHawk
03-30-2012, 01:02 PM
You may well be right, but there is a long ways to go with early entries and undecided recruits. It's all relative. UNC may look down, but you can't know how bad it will be until you look at the competition.

Big12 examples: At the end of 2011, Missouri was one of the last teams in the tournament, got spanked by Cincy in the 1st round by almost 20, lost their head coach and their 2nd best player to injury. CBB was so bad in 2012 that the same team went 30-5 and got a #2 seed, with no new players and no bench. This is arguably Bill Self's least talented team in his time at KU, and they are in the Final 4.

I have not seen any early 2012-13 Top 25 lists, but I doubt there are any juggernauts.

oldnavy
03-30-2012, 01:26 PM
You may well be right, but there is a long ways to go with early entries and undecided recruits. It's all relative. UNC may look down, but you can't know how bad it will be until you look at the competition.

Big12 examples: At the end of 2011, Missouri was one of the last teams in the tournament, got spanked by Cincy in the 1st round by almost 20, lost their head coach and their 2nd best player to injury. CBB was so bad in 2012 that the same team went 30-5 and got a #2 seed, with no new players and no bench. This is arguably Bill Self's least talented team in his time at KU, and they are in the Final 4.

I have not seen any early 2012-13 Top 25 lists, but I doubt there are any juggernauts.

Yes, but I can dream can't I? I never count the baby blue out until they are out. 2009-2010 was in many ways one of the best years of my life!!!

MChambers
03-30-2012, 01:30 PM
You may well be right, but there is a long ways to go with early entries and undecided recruits. It's all relative. UNC may look down, but you can't know how bad it will be until you look at the competition.

Big12 examples: At the end of 2011, Missouri was one of the last teams in the tournament, got spanked by Cincy in the 1st round by almost 20, lost their head coach and their 2nd best player to injury. CBB was so bad in 2012 that the same team went 30-5 and got a #2 seed, with no new players and no bench. This is arguably Bill Self's least talented team in his time at KU, and they are in the Final 4.

I have not seen any early 2012-13 Top 25 lists, but I doubt there are any juggernauts.

UNC is hampered by the fact that it will have the same coach next year.

slower
03-30-2012, 02:06 PM
I have not seen any early 2012-13 Top 25 lists, but I doubt there are any juggernauts.

Well, depending on who leaves UK and who else they sign (Muhammad? Noel?), there could be one.

moonpie23
03-30-2012, 03:34 PM
seriously, if Mcadoo is seeing those guys walk out the door, and he's getting info that he's a high lotto pick, WHY would he stay?

UrinalCake
03-30-2012, 03:34 PM
UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.

We definitely lost a lot last year, and if you look at the last two years we've especially lost a lot. But I think how much you lose is less important than how much you have left. In theory, if you have 10 lottery picks on your team and you lose 5, then you've lost a lot but you're still in good shape.

In my opinion we had more talent and experience in 2011-2012 than UNC will have in 2012-2013 as things currently stand.

oldnavy
03-30-2012, 03:44 PM
seriously, if Mcadoo is seeing those guys walk out the door, and he's getting info that he's a high lotto pick, WHY would he stay?

Tarheels do weird stuff....

CDu
03-30-2012, 04:00 PM
seriously, if Mcadoo is seeing those guys walk out the door, and he's getting info that he's a high lotto pick, WHY would he stay?

Historically speaking, I think only one UNC player in the true early entry era has turned a sure-fire spot in the top-10 of the draft to come back to school (Barnes). And he only did it because he had some overinflated need to "push his legacy." McAdoo might do the same, but it'd be bucking a long tradition of UNC players making that jump.

CDu
03-30-2012, 04:02 PM
Well, depending on who leaves UK and who else they sign (Muhammad? Noel?), there could be one.

Yeah, I expect UK to just reload. I have no doubt that they'll get at least one the top remaining SF (Muhammad and Pollard) and one of the top remaining big men (Noel and Bennett). And that will go with Poythress (who looked really good) and Goodwin (who looked sort of good), Cauley (a 6'11" top-50 recruit), Harrow, and whomever they get back from this year's team.

yancem
03-30-2012, 04:08 PM
Historically speaking, I think only one UNC player in the true early entry era has turned a sure-fire spot in the top-10 of the draft to come back to school (Barnes). And he only did it because he had some overinflated need to "push his legacy." McAdoo might do the same, but it'd be bucking a long tradition of UNC players making that jump.

How high was Davis predicted to go? I thought he was a likely lottery pick.

FerryFor50
03-30-2012, 05:28 PM
How high was Davis predicted to go? I thought he was a likely lottery pick.

Anthony Davis is predicted to go #1.

Hubert Davis has used up his NBA eligibility.

NashvilleDevil
03-30-2012, 06:48 PM
Anthony Davis is predicted to go #1.

Hubert Davis has used up his NBA eligibility.

He's talking about Ed Davis.

BD80
03-30-2012, 07:07 PM
I'll be glad to comment on Duke's post presence, just as soon as they get some.

I'd say Henson declaring was a pretty nice post present for Duke.

MacAdoo would make it post presents.

The Black Pigeon never found the post.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-30-2012, 07:20 PM
...What happened to Johnson? Is James actually better?

No McAdoo, big trouble. You disagree?

Brice Johnson is projected to be a pf/sf and is said to be very talented, but he's long and thin, similar to Hubert but with more offensive potential. He will likely need some time to develop.

James is a center. A true back to the basket low post kind of player, think a 6'10" Haywood. He will camp on the block. His body is way more mature than Johnson's,and he is strong. When Roy signed him after missing on his first three post choices, Arizona's Tarczewski, Michigan's McGary, and Iowa's Woodbury, James weighed around 280lbs and people were concerned because he had not played organized ball but a couple of years.

People tell me he's now under 250lbs and really working hard and focused. Likes to be coached and may be a diamond in the rough, we'll see.

I've only seen the YouTube stuff, but he has some power, quickness, toughness and touch. His hands look like they could be a little "hard" on his catches from what little I've seen, so that may be a concern. His videos show him with good fundamentals, like not bringing the ball down, and decent footwork.

I think people are underestimating LMac. His star was rising when he got hurt, and he's got game. Players were raving about his summer play. And Bullock, he's gonna play in the NBA one day. I'd bet he's gonna come back way more confident and improved.

PJ Hairston still has a lot of potential too. His shooting as a freshman did not live up to expectations, but he played solid defense and was a surprisingly strong rebounder. If he finds his shooting groove as a soph, he'll be a impact player.

I don't care what we saw this year, McAdoo is going to be a stud. He was under the radar early, but his athleticsism is for real at 6'9" 225 lbs. If he becomes the go to player, he will shine.

If McAdoo bolts, UNC is unlikely to challenge for the ACC title. With MacAdoo, I think they are in the hunt.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-30-2012, 07:27 PM
seriously, if Mcadoo is seeing those guys walk out the door, and he's getting info that he's a high lotto pick, WHY would he stay?

Because he can become a much better player with another year in the UNC system, which will improve his long term NBA potential...not to mention the McAdoo "brand". :)

Bob Green
03-30-2012, 07:33 PM
I don't care what we saw this year, McAdoo is going to be a stud. He was under the radar early, but his athleticsism is for real at 6'9" 225 lbs. If he becomes the go to player, he will shine.

If McAdoo bolts, UNC is unlikely to challenge for the ACC title. With MacAdoo, I think they are in the hunt.

In seven post season games, McAdoo averaged 10.6 points and 4.8 rebounds per game. That's not shabby. I hope he goes to the NBA, but if he returns, I agree with Wheat, he will shine.

gumbomoop
03-30-2012, 08:05 PM
In re-reading, I hope my post didn't come across as calling you out or that I was trying to brag. I'm probably running a similar risk with Sulaimon this year as you with McAdoo.... I don't necessarily think you are wrong about McAdoo moving forward. He certainly has the size and athleticism to be a star next year if he returns. So I think we agree on the potential, just perhaps not on the likelihood of realization.

No, no, I didn't take your post as calling me out. But it would be fine if you or anyone else had called me out, for I was very high on McAdoo. Really, it would hardly be unfair for someone [you, any other poster] to jab someone [me] a little for predicting McAdoo as #2 frosh after Anthony Davis! I was wrong, period.

I can't claim he realized his potential this year. I think it likely he will; you're still skeptical. Fair enough. There's some irony in my being pleased that McAdoo played a bit more, and somewhat better, toward the end of the season. Why the hell would I be pleased that this kid was helping the Heels? Because I didn't want to think I was totally wrong on him. It's just conceivable that I had my priorities somewhat confused.

To matters more pleasant: On Sulaimon, I'm with you, risky or not. Back last summer, I saw him 2 or 3 times in all-star games, was really happy he's our guy, and thought, he's underrated. Subsequently, the recruiting gurus pushed him higher. [Maybe that's what happened: I think, Sulaimon's good; gurus say, Sulaimon's good; I think, "I'm a guru, and McAdoo's great!" Downhill from there.] Sulaimon's game the other night was second only to Muhammad's. Many posters are now, and may have been for awhile, gushing about Sulaimon, and plausibly so. Smart smarts, multi-skills on O, including handle, shooting, driving, and passing, willing D.

Back to thread relevance: James Michael, take some of Harrison's money and run.

_Gary
03-30-2012, 08:16 PM
In seven post season games, McAdoo averaged 10.6 points and 4.8 rebounds per game. That's not shabby. I hope he goes to the NBA, but if he returns, I agree with Wheat, he will shine.

Unfortunately, I have to agree. The kid will be a very strong player for UNC if he stays next season. And, as much as it pains me to say this, I also agree with Wheat that McAdoo is the key to whether or not UNC challenges for the ACC title next year. If he's there, they won't take the huge hit many people here may think they'll take. But if he goes... ;)

ncexnyc
03-30-2012, 09:58 PM
I'd say Henson declaring was a pretty nice post present for Duke.

MacAdoo would make it post presents.

The Black Pigeon never found the post.

So does this mean Barnes wasn't a carrier pigeon?

verga
03-30-2012, 10:31 PM
for McAdoo next year (if he does return) is Marshall, it's easy to score under the basket when your pg is drilling pin point passes to you. With Paige he's (McAdoo) not going to get those perfect passes the team was getting this year. Paige will be a decent pg until Britt arrives, i'm not sure Roy can play both together so one will have to sit but that's carolina's problem and that won't be until 2013/14.

COYS
03-30-2012, 10:55 PM
UNC was a good team this year, but they were no juggernaut, even if they had been fully healthy. The reason is that they simply couldn't shoot three's well enough. Shooting the three is an essential part of an efficient offense in college basketball (Duke had a more efficient offense this year). I would bet that Hairston (the Heel, not the Devil) and Bullock will both be better from range next year and might make up for the drop off they're sure to have in the post after losing Zeller. If I were a Heels fan, I'd be more concerned with UNC's defense, which has been very good the past few seasons. Henson and to a lesser extent Zeller were mistake erasers on the defensive end. Barnes would never have been confused with Battier on D, but his length alone was usually an advantage. Finally, their rebounding was good at limiting second chance points. I could draw some parallels between next year's Heels team as it stands and this past year's Duke team. There are enough people who can score to keep the team competitive offensively. Defensively, however, they face far more questionmarks.

dukelifer
03-30-2012, 11:23 PM
for McAdoo next year (if he does return) is Marshall, it's easy to score under the basket when your pg is drilling pin point passes to you. With Paige he's (McAdoo) not going to get those perfect passes the team was getting this year. Paige will be a decent pg until Britt arrives, i'm not sure Roy can play both together so one will have to sit but that's carolina's problem and that won't be until 2013/14.

UNC will be fine. Despite what his fanbase thinks- Roy can coach. He will have a young team but one with enough talent to win consistently. The margin for error will be slimmer. McAdoo is very good. He will score a lot of points next year as he will be the best inside threat. Those who think UNC will struggle may be disappointed. They have plenty of weapons and their guys will get better.

devildeac
03-31-2012, 12:15 AM
So does this mean Barnes wasn't a carrier pigeon?

Some additional info on the pigeon/falcon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Falcon

My favorite parts:

"The Black Falcon (Falco subniger) is a medium-large falcon that lives only in Australia, attempts to establish the species in Chapel Hill, NC proved disappointing and were abandoned."

and:

"The Black Falcon's prey is mainly birds, such as quail, various parrot species, finches, magpies, crows, starlings etc, but it has a particular taste for Jayhawks."

;)

juise
03-31-2012, 01:36 AM
Some additional info on the pigeon/falcon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Falcon

My favorite parts:

"The Black Falcon (Falco subniger) is a medium-large falcon that lives only in Australia, attempts to establish the species in Chapel Hill, NC proved disappointing and were abandoned."

and:

"The Black Falcon's prey is mainly birds, such as quail, various parrot species, finches, magpies, crows, starlings etc, but it has a particular taste for Jayhawks."

;)

I like how the "modifications" to the Wiki page were foreseen by some poor bird lover on the Talk page.


We should consider semi-protection for this page, as the NCAA College Basketball season is starting up, and the #1 player on the #1 team in the country has the nickname "Black Falcon". This page is going to be continuously vandalized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnandrus (talk • contribs) 07:38, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Bluedog
03-31-2012, 02:47 PM
Some additional info on the pigeon/falcon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Falcon

My favorite parts:

"The Black Falcon (Falco subniger) is a medium-large falcon that lives only in Australia, attempts to establish the species in Chapel Hill, NC proved disappointing and were abandoned."

and:

"The Black Falcon's prey is mainly birds, such as quail, various parrot species, finches, magpies, crows, starlings etc, but it has a particular taste for Jayhawks."

;)

According to the history, it was somebody on Duke's campus that reverted that update! What's wrong with them?! haha. ;) Somebody in Charlotte had written that apparently.

BlueDevilBrowns
04-01-2012, 08:57 PM
Terrance Ross will enter Draft. Huge blow to Washington for next year. I wonder how that will effect Oriakhi's decision?

Link:http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/01/washington-forward-terrence-ross-entering-the-nba-draft/

superdave
04-02-2012, 10:32 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/north-carolina-basketball/post/_/id/7544/uncs-mcadoo-still-mulling-nba-decision

McAdoo still considering the draft. His dad says a decision is likely by this weekend. Go fulfill your dreams, young man. Go.

MarkD83
04-02-2012, 12:38 PM
When we focus on the early-entry question we often times think what is "broken" about the system is the kids making "perceived" improper decisions related to the value of academics versus being paid for what is a dream.

The article about McAdoo's decision points out where I believe the problem actually lies. I will paraphrase rather than quote the article....

....based on several performances late in the year McAdoo is now projected to be in the top 7 in the draft, even though his performance throughout his one year in college are unimpressive....

In the past folks have argued that if a bright student were offered millions of dollars to quit school early and join the corporate world they should (and if we were the bright student we would). However, the implication about McAdoo is more akin to being a C student and then acing one exam and being offered millions of dollars. As the C student with one great exam grade I would definitely take the money and run.

The decision making process that seems to be screwed up is the NBA team that is willing to pay someone millions of dollars for one or two good performances. Which leads me to the "one and done" rule. This I believe is set up to protect the NBA GMs that can't make good decisions rather than anything to do with protecting the high school player who is not good enough to play in the NBA.

Nugget
04-02-2012, 01:29 PM
When we focus on the early-entry question we often times think what is "broken" about the system is the kids making "perceived" improper decisions related to the value of academics versus being paid for what is a dream.

The article about McAdoo's decision points out where I believe the problem actually lies. I will paraphrase rather than quote the article....

....based on several performances late in the year McAdoo is now projected to be in the top 7 in the draft, even though his performance throughout his one year in college are unimpressive....

In the past folks have argued that if a bright student were offered millions of dollars to quit school early and join the corporate world they should (and if we were the bright student we would). However, the implication about McAdoo is more akin to being a C student and then acing one exam and being offered millions of dollars. As the C student with one great exam grade I would definitely take the money and run.

The decision making process that seems to be screwed up is the NBA team that is willing to pay someone millions of dollars for one or two good performances. Which leads me to the "one and done" rule. This I believe is set up to protect the NBA GMs that can't make good decisions rather than anything to do with protecting the high school player who is not good enough to play in the NBA.


The suggestion that McAdoo is a "C student" is grossly unfair. It's not clear to me where the idea that his "performance throughout his one year in college [was] unimpressive" comes from. He was a freshman behind established upperclass stars Zeller and Henson, both of whom were in strong consideration for ACC 1st team/POY honors. McAdoo showed very well in his limited minutes during the course of the season, and showed even better once Henson was injured.

But, no doubt you are correct about the motive of the NBA's one and done rule -- of course, it's to help the NBA GMs by letting them see a truer reflection of a player's actual skills in a season of real competition rather than blindly "projecting" based solely on high school performance.

FerryFor50
04-02-2012, 01:39 PM
The suggestion that McAdoo is a "C student" is grossly unfair. It's not clear to me where the idea that his "performance throughout his one year in college [was] unimpressive" comes from. He was a freshman behind established upperclass stars Zeller and Henson, both of whom were in strong consideration for ACC 1st team/POY honors. McAdoo showed very well in his limited minutes during the course of the season, and showed even better once Henson was injured.

But, no doubt you are correct about the motive of the NBA's one and done rule -- of course, it's to help the NBA GMs by letting them see a truer reflection of a player's actual skills in a season of real competition rather than blindly "projecting" based solely on high school performance.

So if you were grading McAdoo on his freshman year... what grade would you give him?

And you can't say "incomplete" because he played. Incomplete would be red shirted...

I think a C grade is entirely fair because he's not proven nor disproven his potential.... he could still be an A or an F down the road, so right in the middle is fair.

CDu
04-02-2012, 01:49 PM
The suggestion that McAdoo is a "C student" is grossly unfair. It's not clear to me where the idea that his "performance throughout his one year in college [was] unimpressive" comes from. He was a freshman behind established upperclass stars Zeller and Henson, both of whom were in strong consideration for ACC 1st team/POY honors. McAdoo showed very well in his limited minutes during the course of the season, and showed even better once Henson was injured.

But, no doubt you are correct about the motive of the NBA's one and done rule -- of course, it's to help the NBA GMs by letting them see a truer reflection of a player's actual skills in a season of real competition rather than blindly "projecting" based solely on high school performance.

I think the bolded part is very much up for interpretation. I thought he looked decidedly mediocre in his limited minutes during the course of the season. And the fact that he played so few minutes per game (when Williams has long preferred to play a much deeper bench) suggests that my thoughts on this aren't too far off base. He played okay in an expanded role after Henson's injury: outclassed by CJ Leslie in his first game, active defensively but inept offensively in a loss to FSU, active defensively and decent but not great offensively against a completely overmatched Vermont team, just okay against Creighton, a non-factor against Ohio, and solid (though the recipient of several transition buckets) against Kansas.

That's not to say he won't be very good next year if he returns. There's absolutely potential with McAdoo, and guys tend to make big jumps from freshman to sophomore year. But to say he played really well during the season is a bit of a rosy view of what he actually did in my opinion.