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JBDuke
03-16-2012, 09:45 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. Venting and or bashing posts will incur 5 point infractions resulting in immediate 48 hour suspension of your posting privileges.

DukeGirl4ever
03-16-2012, 09:46 PM
I will forever be a Duke fan!


This offense suffered greatly with the loss of Ryan.

October can't get here soon enough!

NSDukeFan
03-16-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm just really sorry it's over for these guys. The better team won today. Duke had a great season and unfortunately will likely be remembered more for the final game.

Gthoma2a
03-16-2012, 09:47 PM
As I said before. I am disappointed, but thanks to Miles for four years of effort and commitment. It will take a while for this bitter taste to leave from the loss, but his career was one that showed great heart.

jipops
03-16-2012, 09:47 PM
I had us losing 2nd round, so I was close.

Another season of overachieving with no gas left in the end. The better team won, no doubt. Congrats Lehigh.

uh_no
03-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. Venting and or bashing posts will incur 5 point infractions resulting in immediate 48 hour suspension of your posting privileges.

Wow.

I hope this season can be remembered by how we all thought it was a rebuilding year and then pretty much played our brains out during the regular season...

Wins against

UNC
Michigan
Kansas.....

we played our way into a high ranking and got hit by a phenomenal lehigh team that could take advantage of our weaknesses....they were quick....CJ is a great great player....and we struggled with people driving all year.

The loss of kelly made this team so much weaker, and it was unfortunate.

DesertDevil
03-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Never feels good to go out early, but Lehigh really worked for and earned the win. They could get another win Sunday.

Utley
03-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Thanks for representing us all year team. I think if anything you over achieved for much of the season and injuries u fortunatly bite us again.

grossbus
03-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Frankly, we have not played well since the game in Tallahassee. Especially on offense. Tonight was difficult to watch and understand. Equal burden players and coaches?

_Gary
03-16-2012, 09:48 PM
I thought our rotation this year was more than enough to prevent fatigue, so I don't think that was the problem coming down the stretch of the season. Having said that, it was very unfortunate that both Dre and Seth hit shooting droughts in March. We just couldn't afford that to happen because the margin for error was too thin with this team. Not having Kelly hurt a lot. At least I believe it did. On to next year now.

Acymetric
03-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Hopefully the guys who return will really take this in and use it to light the fire that seemed to be lacking at times this year. I am really curious to see what the team looks like next year.

Hate it for Miles, he started playing much better later in the season; tough way to end a career as the lone senior.

OldSchool
03-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Worst loss in a big game in many many years.

With all of the offensive weapons this team has, it should be able to post 80s on Lehigh no problem. I'll grant you whatever deficiencies on defense you want, as good as this team was offensively all year, it could have been significantly better.

Won't be surprised if Austin decides to return. I hope Mason does as well. If Bazz comes, then we have the missing piece, if either Quinn or Seth can step up and be a top quality point guard (on both ends) next year.

SoCalDukeFan
03-16-2012, 09:49 PM
is that Duke played better at the start of year rather than the end.

Coach K has been a great defensive coach but we were defensively challenged all year.

Losing Ryan hurt of course.

Lehigh played better than us and deserved to win.

Thanks to Miles for a great effort all four years.

SoCal

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-16-2012, 09:49 PM
I guess we know the answer to question regarding how important Ryan really was to this team. Frustrating final two weeks to an otherwise very nice year. Plenty to be proud of and hopefully something solid to build on for next year.

Atlanta Duke
03-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Kelly's injury was one too many problems to overcome for a team that could have quit after the Miami loss but kept hope alive until the UNC blow out in Cameron

Always sorry to see the season end but this is hardly the equivalent of season ending debacles like losing to Indiana in 2002

K working with this team reminds me of a quote about the great Yankees manager Casey Stengel managing the early Mets - "an Edison working with rusty parts"

Bob Green
03-16-2012, 09:50 PM
Congratulations to Lehigh on a hard fought victory. I hated to see Miles Plumlee end his career with a 1st Round exit as he has been an integral part of the team for four years and I was hoping for a couple more victory celebrations before we had to say good bye to the big guy. The sun will rise tomorrow morning and I'll be wearing my Duke sweat shirt like normal.

ice-9
03-16-2012, 09:51 PM
We were beat this game. This wasn't a mid-major team that got unbelievably hot and had lucky breaks, this was a team that out-hustled us and out-played us. It doesn't feel like we were upset; we just got beat. (Yes, US, even though we lost, and embarrassingly, this is still our team.)

The most telling stat is the rebound numbers; despite our big height advantage, we only out-rebounded Lehigh by 3. Credit to Lehigh's defensive scheme; they took us out of the game. For this game (and without Kelly) they were better than us.

Ultimately, this loss will be a great learning experience for our players next year. Right now, it's just gonna suck.

Can't wait to meet my two cousins who went to Lehigh LOL.

FerryFor50
03-16-2012, 09:51 PM
Good, but not great season. The record was stellar. We had some good wins. Saw some huge shots (Tyler's 3 against Kansas, Austin's shot against UNC). But we also saw a lot of uncharacteristic play (defense, foul shooting, poor shot selection) and too many close calls. That had to catch up to them sooner or later. Looks like it was sooner...

I'm just taking solace in knowing UNC won't be winning it all this year.

moonpie23
03-17-2012, 12:24 PM
I'm just taking solace in knowing UNC won't be winning it all this year.

I hope you are correct

_Gary
03-17-2012, 12:26 PM
I hope you are correct

Me too.

Kedsy
03-17-2012, 12:28 PM
The sun will rise tomorrow morning and I'll be wearing my Duke sweat shirt like normal.

I'm wearing my Duke sweatshirt right now.

So I've been thinking. Last year, before Kyrie got hurt, I seem to remember people saying the only way we'd lose is if we beat ourselves.... so now after Ryan's injury and this upset defeat, does that make us victim's of the "Duke curse"?

stixof96
03-17-2012, 12:31 PM
i think duke found out who they really were last night........

subzero02
03-17-2012, 12:34 PM
I won't be done criticizing our rotation and player development issues until I see what Murphy brings to the table.

Kedsy
03-17-2012, 12:34 PM
i think duke found out who they really were last night........

What does that even mean?

mgtr
03-17-2012, 12:35 PM
I don't think we can blame the loss on Ryan being out. Sure, we missed him, but this was a game where everything went wrong. Hard to pick a player of the game -- Mason had some great plays, as did Austin, and Tyler was super on defense. But Seth, Andre and Miles just never seemed to get it going. And Lehigh was all it was supposed to be.
A tough loss, particularly for Miles, but also for those who were looking to the NBA. I don't see any lottery picks on this team, but who knows.
I am sure that the coach feels at least as bad as the players, maybe worse. Pretty tough to call out "next play" after your season ends with a thud. However, "NEXT PLAY."

NM Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 12:35 PM
I was not surprised by the result of this game. Lehigh is a better balanced team than Duke this year, and has guards that excel on offense and defense. During the preseason I voiced that my biggest concern was the lack of lateral quickness for both sides of the ball, and below typical Duke defensive instincts with the guards. Such can be improved to some degree with drills, but nervous system efficiency and fast twitch muscles have such an over-arching impact in this critical part of the game. The coaching staff worked very hard with what they had, the players worked hard, but...

In addition, when you really only have one player who can create his own shot with aggressive driving, and you lack a developed natural small forward, the personnel limitations can really show up when the threes are are not falling. In addition, it was rare this year to see a really good entry pass to the bigs.

My hope for next year is that Austin stays and continues to become a more well-rounded player, including amping up his defense. And Cook seems to be the most natural point guard, with reasonable quickness. Maybe as he leaves his injury behind he will be even quicker. And with at least 3 new players added to the mix, perhaps the chemistry will take on a new and improved level. Looking forward to the next season!

stixof96
03-17-2012, 12:40 PM
What does that even mean?

it means duke was over rated, over ranked, and over hyped all year....... taking down the fan board after losing last night was not something i would have voted for......duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past ?........to say that i am disappointed would be a huge understatement......

cptnflash
03-17-2012, 12:42 PM
I'm just taking solace in knowing UNC won't be winning it all this year.

Don't jinx it! So far, everything has gone right for UNC in this tournament. Assuming they get by Creighton tomorrow, they'll play a 12/13 seed in the sweet 16. They've basically got a cakewalk to the Elite 8, but hopefully Kansas can take them.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what to hope for in terms of guys coming back. This team clearly didn't have the chemistry that we've enjoyed for the last several years. Maybe some addition by subtraction wouldn't be such a bad thing. Time will tell.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-17-2012, 12:44 PM
Best explanation I've heard regarding this season is that Duke got an inflated start due to the summer trip. The trip got the team off to a fantastic start, but as the "field" caught up, the learning curve wasn't as sharp.

The team had amazing potential (see v. MSU or at Chapel Hill) and also had the potential to mysteriously seem lost. I wish I could say that the end of the season was a big surprise, but frankly it wasn't at all.

I liked this team. Austin really won me over during the course of the season with his improved decision-making. I really hope that he sticks around for another season with Coach K (his post-game comments about how the only part of the team that showed up was the coaching staff reflected his respect for them rather profoundly) and I think that both he and the team would benefit greatly.

This team had the potential to run the table if the shots had fallen and the cards had come up right, and I hate any season that ends in a loss (most of them do) but I am proud of this team. I am proud that Duke continues to recruit "Duke guys" and that the continue to win "the right way." Yesterday I proudly wore my Duke 1991 Champions shirt (I break it out on special occasions) and I was in downtown Asheville headed to work when a guy with two small kids pointed and said "hey, see that shirt?" His kid (maybe six years old) said "yeah?" He said "that means he's a good guy."

Go Duke. GTHC.

See you here for a long, long summer.

ksab68
03-17-2012, 12:45 PM
Hate to say it, but I think that we got flat out-coached last night...with the talent level we have, there is no reason why we should not have pulled out the win.

Yes, Coach K and the staff has done an incredible job throughout the year (excluding last 3 weeks) of overplaying our talent against tougher opponents. But the development of the players was not there, and when we needed a change and a spark, just could not get done.

That being said, good luck to Miles - one of the class guys to have come through the Duke program.

stixof96
03-17-2012, 12:45 PM
Don't jinx it! So far, everything has gone right for UNC in this tournament. Assuming they get by Creighton tomorrow, they'll play a 12/13 seed in the sweet 16. They've basically got a cakewalk to the Elite 8, but hopefully Kansas can take them.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what to hope for in terms of guys coming back. This team clearly didn't have the chemistry that we've enjoyed for the last several years. Maybe some addition by subtraction wouldn't be such a bad thing. Time will tell.

no need in hating on N.C.......i wish duke could have some of the fire and desire they are playing with......too late now.........

rsvman
03-17-2012, 12:46 PM
Earlier yesterday afternoon, I played nine holes of golf with a couple of friends. On the 6th hole I hit an approach shot to 3 feet. One of 'em says to me, "Birdie incoming!" and the other says, "Wow. A kick-in birdie. That's pretty sweet."
As I stood over the putt, I began to think in my mind, "I hope I don't miss this putt. That would be embarrassing," rather than thinking, "This is awesome; I love making birdies." As you may have guessed by now, I missed the putt. Quit on it. Worrying about failure more than thinking about success.

To me, that's how Duke looked last night.

Congrats to the team for an otherwise very good season. I'm proud of the way they represented the University. Thanks to Miles for four years of hard work.

CajunDevil
03-17-2012, 12:49 PM
i think duke found out who they really were last night........


Is that a play on Dennis Green's rant from a couple of years ago... "they are who we thought they were..."?

Seriously, we ran into the best player in the tourney tonight who was unguardable. I'm thoroughly disappointed, as I'm sure everyone else is, however I think this team played hard all year and gave it their all. Kudos to Miles for four years of hard work. I will miss seeing him on the floor.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm super excited for next year. We will have two legit wings (Gbinije/Murphy) that we sorely missed having this year. We will have solid point guard play (Tyler/Quinn), an overabundance of shooting guards (Rivers(?), Curry, Dawkins, Sulaimon), a stud at the 4, along with a serviceable backup (Ryan Kelly, Hairston, respectively), and hopefully two Plumlees manning the 5. It could be special...

loldevilz
03-17-2012, 12:51 PM
Here is my 2 cents.

I think the offensive problems at the end of the season were due to Tyler Thornton inability to create offense after Kelly went out. Kelly could stretch the floor helping Rivers, Curry and Dawkins get open looks, so Thornton wasn't a liability. K should have put the ball in Quinn Cook's hands way more in when Kelly went out to help create offense.

That being said, I think most people are starting to realize that Duke basketball isn't what it was in the early 2000's and not close to what it was in the 90's. Duke doesn't have the athlete's to physically overwhelm opponents. In fact I thought we were a bit physically overwhelmed by their guards.

Lastly, I know I'll get flack for this but the Plumlees should be destroying other teams. They are so big, strong, and experienced at this point that they should be unstoppable, especially against smaller teams. I'm not saying its all Wojo's fault, but the failure to get them involved is definitely the fault of coaching.

mr. synellinden
03-17-2012, 12:52 PM
is that Duke played better at the start of year rather than the end.


I've been thinking about this. I think it's possible that Duke looked better earlier in the year because of the China experience and coming into the season with more preparation and practice time together. So the quality of our play was "inflated" by this. College basketball is becoming younger and younger, with much more turnover from year to year among top teams due to early departures. So there is a premium on integrating new players and practicing together. What we saw in the first two months of the season was a Duke team that was advanced compared to other teams, but those other teams naturally caught up during the season as they had more time to practice together.

Two other thoughts. First, if the runs by Butler and VCU to the Final Four the last two years show anything, it's how much the playing field has been leveled due to early departures. So few of the perennial top 15 programs have players that stay together for three or four years. As a result, mid-majors and teams like Norfolk St. and Lehigh that have experienced players and stars (like O'Quinn and CJ) are going to be able to compete with teams like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, etc. that regularly lose their best players after a year or two. Most of the successful teams the last few years have won because they've been experienced (Duke - 2010; Kansas 2008) or their top players stayed (UNC - 2009; Florida - 2007). UNC would be relying on freshman and inexperienced upper clansmen this year if Henson, Zeller and Barnes had gone pro last year. Instead, they are a #1 seed and a favorite to win the championship.

Second, getting back to Duke - from what I saw as a fan, and what I heard from various post-game comments by the players, it seems like this team never liked playing with each other. Chemistry is a cliche word and sometimes over-used - and we've heard speculation about lack of chemistry in the McRoberts and Paulus years. But if you've watched enough basketball, you know when a team is playing well TOGETHER and enjoying playing with each other. How many times did you see Curry, Rivers or one of the Plumlees smile and seem to have fun on the court (other than the UNC buzzer beater)? Did you see theses guys exude a passion for playing with one another? I'm not saying they weren't working hard or less than fully committed to winning - that's separate. I just didn't see the joy of playing as a team. And when you watch the NCAA tournament, you can see the teams that have it and the teams that don't. (Note - UNC and Syracuse are two of the teams that do not seem to have it; while Michigan St. is one of the teams that does seem to have it.)

subzero02
03-17-2012, 12:53 PM
The odds of our streak of top 10 AP poll appearances ending is a bit stronger now.

stixof96
03-17-2012, 12:53 PM
Hate to say it, but I think that we got flat out-coached last night...with the talent level we have, there is no reason why we should not have pulled out the win.

Yes, Coach K and the staff has done an incredible job throughout the year (excluding last 3 weeks) of overplaying our talent against tougher opponents. But the development of the players was not there, and when we needed a change and a spark, just could not get done.

That being said, good luck to Miles - one of the class guys to have come through the Duke program.

what i saw was a total lack of desire..........the laundry hanging from the rafters in cameron was not put there by the level of competitiveness we saw last night......i hope nobody argues with that......i don't know what these kids wanted last night, but it certainly wasn't to advance to the next round.........if it was that easy, nobody would get eliminated.......duke got beaten by one guy.........a guy that most people have never heard of...........what does that tell you ???

JohnGalt
03-17-2012, 12:55 PM
it means duke was over rated, over ranked, and over hyped all year....... taking down the fan board after losing last night was not something i would have voted for......duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past ?........to say that i am disappointed would be a huge understatement......

You do realize Duke beat Kansas, Michigan St, AND carolina, right? 2 #1 seeds and a #2 seed? If that qualifies as "over rated, over ranked, and over hyped all year" then I believe there is no pleasing you.

I'm as disappointed as anyone, but as others have mentioned above...the better team won last night. IMO, Duke never really gelled into a defensive unit that is generally a hallmark of Coach K teams. And it ultimately was our undoing.

Either way, we're still the greatest program of modern college basketball. :cool:

Now...A-B-C!

CajunDevil
03-17-2012, 12:56 PM
what i saw was a total lack of desire..........the laundry hanging from the rafters in cameron was not put there by the level of competitiveness we saw last night......i hope nobody argues with that......i don't know what these kids wanted last night, but it certainly wasn't to advance to the next round.........if it was that easy, nobody would get eliminated.......duke got beaten by one guy.........a guy that most people have never heard of...........what does that tell you ???


I disagree. The desire was there. The effort was there. We lacked quickness to blow by their guards or to defend their guards, and K didn't adjust. Btw, Mccollum is the best player in the tourney and certainly, the best player Duke's played against all year. He IS that good and showed it last night. He will be in NBA a long time.

DevilWearsPrada
03-17-2012, 12:58 PM
it means duke was over rated, over ranked, and over hyped all year....... taking down the fan board after losing last night was not something i would have voted for......duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past ?........to say that i am disappointed would be a huge understatement......

WOW, all the more reason why DBR did take down the forum last night and this morning. I did NOT get to see the game, because I was working, and wasn't able to even view my ESPN AP on my phone, until the 2nd half. I only got to see the last few seconds of the game, and then highlights on all the NCAA channels. TRU TV actually had more footage of the Duke game. Several people were texting me, during the game.

Lehigh played with heart, hustle and more intensity and won the game. I didn't get to see the Mizzou game either, but they didnt win either. Coach K has said all season that this team did not have an identity or well established leadership. Defense has been an issue all season. But this 2011/12 team had a "Will to Win", Coach K has stated many times.

Miles has had a wonderful 4 years at Duke. He has won many many games, 3 ACC championships, a National Championship and been a part of Coach K's 903+ history. That is so much to be proud of and also to graduate from Duke in a few months.

I was raised going to Duke Football and Basketball games, and today I have on a Duke shirt, and watching NCAA games. I am Duke for Life, no matter if it is Football, Basketball, Lacrosse, Ping Pong or Marbles.

Good move DBR for taking down the boards, so people won't rant, like they do on the IC boards.

Acymetric
03-17-2012, 12:58 PM
I disagree. The desire was there. The effort was there. We lacked quickness to blow by their guards or to defend their guards, and K didn't adjust. Btw, Mccollum is the best player in the tourney and certainly, the best player Duke's played against all year. He IS that good and showed it last night. He will be in NBA a long time.

McCollum is a really good player, no doubt, but best player in the tourney? You've said it twice and I didn't buy it either time.

Tucknut
03-17-2012, 01:01 PM
.....duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past

That would be last year against Arizona's Derrick Williams.

johnb
03-17-2012, 01:02 PM
duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past ?.
.

about 1 year ago would be the last NCAA game we lost when the other team was propelled by 1 very good and very hot player. The first time I distinctly recall that happening was when Jack Givens exploded for Kentucky in 1978, and I also seem to recall an evil, evil situation in which Pervis Ellison played the game of his life for Louisville in 1986. In other words, I'm thinking it's more the rule than the exception.

As for getting outplayed, that's true. I do have a little trouble seeing us as especially overachieving in light of our place in the recruiting pecking order and the high school ratings of the individual players we have on our team. It seems a little odd if we don't think our coaches (best anywhere) and our elite players aren't good enough to get out of the 1st round. Frankly, though, the more upsetting issue for me was the lack of obvious passion in the final minutes. I don't know what was going on inside our guys' heads, but they all looked like they were at a funeral and the game wasn't even over.

Having said that, I'm sorry Miles left on such a desultory note. He was my favorite player on the team, and I certainly wish him well.

ncexnyc
03-17-2012, 01:02 PM
I'd like to thank Miles for 4 years of hard, solid play. No, he was never a star, but he was a young man who grew during his time at Duke and that is really what the college game should be about. He'll walk away with a degree, a championship ring, and hopefully in his eyes, many fond memories that will last a lifetime.

In the end we were what we were. We were a flawed team and those who were objective about viewing this team understood that. The heart and desire we saw throughout the year just wasn't enough to overcome those flaws. Questionable freethrow shooting, guards who couldn't guard, a raw albeit developing post game, sloppy ballhandling, and most of all no answer at the 3 position. Despite all these flaws these kids managed to put together a really solid year.

Based on what we saw this past year I don't expect Austin or Mason to leave for the NBA. Both have a lot of work to do on their game. Ryan and Seth started for most of the year, they can't say the role is new to them next year. Josh showed he could play under control these past few games. The key for him will be, can he consistently hit the jumper from the elbow. Tyler's D improved over the year, can he become more aggressive taking the ball to the hoop and drain the open shots when they are there. Andre needs to do some soul searching over the off season. The physical tools are there, the stroke is there. Can he get his head on straight? Do they sell mega-packs of confidence boosters in Durham? He really needs it.

Silent G, Alex, and Marshall all three kids were present, but only Mike got to see the court this year. What can they bring to the table only time will tell.

Yes, this loss hurts and mainly for the abuse I'll take at work Monday, but the season was without a doubt a very good one. I'll take solace in the fact that only one team actually wins it all.

RoyalBlue08
03-17-2012, 01:03 PM
Even though I had little expectations of a championship and was a bit fearful of what might happen in a matchup with KY, that loss still hurt. I think this team never quite fit together, mostly because they didn't have many (or maybe any) players who were proficient at creating shots for their teammates. Hopefully this is something Cook or Rivers if he comes back could grow into, as they both seem to have the talent necessary but just need a little seasoning. Anyone know what sort of timetable Austin and Mason will be on in terms of making their decision?

stixof96
03-17-2012, 01:03 PM
You do realize Duke beat Kansas, Michigan St, AND carolina, right? 2 #1 seeds and a #2 seed? If that qualifies as "over rated, over ranked, and over hyped all year" then I believe there is no pleasing you.

I'm as disappointed as anyone, but as others have mentioned above...the better team won last night. IMO, Duke never really gelled into a defensive unit that is generally a hallmark of Coach K teams. And it ultimately was our undoing.

Either way, we're still the greatest program of modern college basketball. :cool:

Now...A-B-C!

oh.......i am easy to please.........all it takes to please me is 110% from everybody on the court.......but, 60% won't do it.........Coach K said, nobody showed up but the coaches........i agree..........maybe our kids are too spoiled to compete at this level anymore..........maybe we need to study about the hell hurley's daddy put him through teaching him how to deal with adversity.........could be the problem...........i don't know, but, nothing sickens me more than not showing up.........i agree with coach......

HDB
03-17-2012, 01:04 PM
I was as disappointed as the rest of you after last night's game. It was difficult to watch as Lehigh made all the big plays to seal the game. After the game as I sat on my couch in a near coma, I decided to turn to ESPNEWS to watch the post-game interviews. That's when I saw Coach K and my disappointment turned to pride as he gave such a gracious and classy postgame interview. He made no excuses, expressed his disappointment, and gave all the credit to Lehigh. I can only hope I would have such poise after such a disappointing loss. As I turned off the tube to head to bed I felt reassured about our program and our leader. He is the best.

meowmix911
03-17-2012, 01:05 PM
McCollum is a really good player, no doubt, but best player in the tourney? You've said it twice and I didn't buy it either time.

Agreed--over the season we've made a lot of people look like first-round/lottery picks:

Moe Harkless
Glen Rice Jr.
etc...

g-money
03-17-2012, 01:07 PM
First, thanks to Miles for four great years. What a terrific kid. Don't stop until you've made your dreams come true.

More than any team in recent memory I think Coach K's "fist" analogy applied (in a negative way, unfortunately) to this year's team. There was a bit too much one-on-one play, and seemingly poor team chemistry. Even though Coach K is a master psychologist, this year's team proved to be quite a challenge.

Let's hope he can prevent any potentially similar problems from recurring next year. I think he might have to show some tough love to some of the players. But hey, if he did it with the Olympic team, he can surely do it at Duke!

Speaking of the Olympics, maybe yesterday's loss will help get Coach K fired up for the London games, which in my view would certainly be a silver lining of sorts.

superdave
03-17-2012, 01:08 PM
Thank you to Miles. He's a National Champion. He's a good one and will be missed.

RoyalBlue08
03-17-2012, 01:09 PM
I was as disappointed as the rest of you after last night's game. It was difficult to watch as Lehigh made all the big plays to seal the game. After the game as I sat on my couch in a near coma, I decided to turn to ESPNEWS to watch the post-game interviews. That's when I saw Coach K and my disappointment turned to pride as he gave such a gracious and classy postgame interview. He made no excuses, expressed his disappointment, and gave all the credit to Lehigh. I can only hope I would have such poise after such a disappointing loss. As I turned off the tube to head to bed I felt reassured about our program and our leader. He is the best.

I could agree more. I had all if the same thoughts listen to Coach K speak, especially considering he was more emotionally invested than any of us . Couldn't imagine having a better person to be the biggest public representative of the university.

Neals384
03-17-2012, 01:10 PM
Here is my 2 cents.

Lastly, I know I'll get flack for this but the Plumlees should be destroying other teams. They are so big, strong, and experienced at this point that they should be unstoppable, especially against smaller teams. I'm not saying its all Wojo's fault, but the failure to get them involved is definitely the fault of coaching.

Yup, they should have destroyed Lehigh, but don't blame the Plums. Last night I counted five times that Miles rolled off a pick to perfection and was completely open for a drive to the basket...not only did he not get a single pass but the guards never looked in his direction. Mason was open and unguarded for an alley-oop at least once. The entry pass came 5 seconds later and he was double-teamed. My "highlight" of the game was Seth dribbling in circles while everyone else stood around.

stixof96
03-17-2012, 01:11 PM
I was as disappointed as the rest of you after last night's game. It was difficult to watch as Lehigh made all the big plays to seal the game. After the game as I sat on my couch in a near coma, I decided to turn to ESPNEWS to watch the post-game interviews. That's when I saw Coach K and my disappointment turned to pride as he gave such a gracious and classy postgame interview. He made no excuses, expressed his disappointment, and gave all the credit to Lehigh. I can only hope I would have such poise after such a disappointing loss. As I turned off the tube to head to bed I felt reassured about our program and our leader. He is the best.

i absolutely agree..........i don't know that today's kids appreciate a man like him anymore......they certainly seem to ignore the passion and desire he breathes.........i saw no will to win on duke's team in the closing minutes last night........none.......a total absence of passion.........that ain't Coach K.......in fact, all night long they loblollyied up and down the court trailing in the game.......no fire, no passion, no desire = just what duke got last night........

superdave
03-17-2012, 01:13 PM
My "highlight" of the game was Seth dribbling in circles while everyone else stood around.

You come from a dark place, friend.

If I think about last night, I am going to get peed off. We should do group therapy on here and either post about Miles contributions, or puppies or something.

NashvilleDevil
03-17-2012, 01:14 PM
Coach K said, nobody showed up but the coaches

Tyler or Austin said this. Coach K would never say that about the kids. In his press conference he said it was his job to fix the offense and he failed to do that. The next time Coach K places blame of a loss on the kids will be the first.

meowmix911
03-17-2012, 01:15 PM
Aside from the loss of Kelly, it seems to me that, this team lacked the cohesiveness and communication and intangibles of our prior Duke teams. I loved Coach's quote that "five fingers separately, weren't as powerful as a fist (or something to that effect)." The power of the network, of unity is something that just didn't seem to happen with this team. I thought about the loss last night and tried to figure out what made teams "glue" together. Is it senior leadership? A big man who could effectively pass out of the post (Zoubek) or a drive-and-kick point guard (KI, JW)? An amazing off the ball help defender (Shane)... I must admit that during the season we had success when we shot the lights out--but it almost worried me--whenever we've solely been a devoted three-ball team, the results haven't been good. Then again, coach can only play with the cards he's dealt. Any thoughts guys?

Go Duke--can't wait for next year. The worst part of losing the last game is that you need to wait 8 months to get revved up again.

dcdrumsinc
03-17-2012, 01:16 PM
i absolutely agree..........i don't know that today's kids appreciate a man like him anymore......they certainly seem to ignore the passion and desire he breathes.........i saw no will to win on duke's team in the closing minutes last night........none.......a total absence of passion.........that ain't Coach K.......in fact, all night long they loblollyied up and down the court trailing in the game.......no fire, no passion, no desire = just what duke got last night........

I don't know if it was a lack of passion as much as it was a lack of talent. You can't teach athleticism and you can't teach quick feet. This duke team, and most likely next years's, has little athleticism and slow feet. Can't stay in front on the offensive player without getitng burned. This team was just not the type of team to be playing face up man to man. I think Coach K shud have gone zone. You also can't teach undersided. Uour backcourt is quite undersized and lacks a true 3. next year change much, unless alex murphy is a BEAST.

CDu
03-17-2012, 01:20 PM
You don't usually win games when your three best perimeter scorers combine for 8-32 shooting (4-19 from 3), and the best of them shot only 5-14. We got a lot of good looks, they just didn't go in. I don't think we had an issue with floor spacing. Curry took his usual shots. Dawkins took his usual shots. So did Rivers. We just missed shots. When you're a 3pt shooting team and you don't make 3pt shots, it's hard to win. And even though we shot so poorly, we still had a good chance to win.

Mason played very well, though he turned it over too much. Miles played okay. Rivers didn't win the battle of "best guard on the court" (lost it badly, actually). Curry and Dawkins just didn't show up. Thornton and Cook both played solidly.

This team had a lot of limitations. We knew that coming in. They have very few capable ballhandlers. They aren't overly quick on the perimeter. They aren't great defensively. They struggle with quick PF and they don't have good size at the SF. Despite this, we were able to get away with it with incredible shooting, timely offensive rebounds, and the occasional big scoring night from a big down low. Unfortunately, down the stretch, the shooting touch got away from us. And without that, we just fizzled.

I'm very disappointed that Miles had to go out like that. But, it was going to happen at some point - I just didn't see this team winning six in a row to close it. Miles really came on down the stretch of his senior year, and I'm happy for him. Hopefully he can continue to improve and maybe eventually crack an NBA roster. With his athleticism and size, it should just be a matter of focus and effort for it to happen.

Hopefully the guys that stick around learn from the late season losses. Dawkins needs to really work on his ballhandling, defense, and focus. Curry needs to get more confident with the ball in his hands so that he can attack off the dribble more often. Cook needs to get healthy, improve his defense and shooting. Mason (if he comes back) needs to work on his post moves and getting more comfortable/confident around the basket so that his athleticism can take over. Rivers (if he comes back) needs to improve his decision making, his ability to play off the ball (he had pretty much one play - dribble back to halfcourt, call for a high screen and try to drive), his court vision and passing skills, and his free throw shooting. And hopefully Gbinije, Murphy, and Marshall just continue to improve in all aspects so that maybe they can add some diversity to the lineup.

Tough way to end things. Hopefully we can use this to get better.

ThePublisher
03-17-2012, 01:23 PM
It is such a shame to see a team of guys with so much potential never live up to it. This team declined in play late in the season (not typically K), especially the last 4-5 games instead of getting better as the year progressed (typically K). I can't help but think they lost their legs as our 3 point shooting was abysmal the last part of the year. Missing Kelly clearly hurt us more than I think most people imagined it would. Yet I don't understand why if he was "available in certain situations" he was not at least put out there to give it a shot against Lehigh, nobody else could hit.
We lost this game because of Mason being in foul trouble, he was completely dominate early. Come back and show 'em what you can do as a Senior!
This makes two years in a row we underachieved in the tourney...

Guess I'm onto the recruiting scene now. Next year should be a vastly improved team if we land a couple of guys, and someone really takes over as leader. That's assuming AR and MP2 stay, as my gut says they will.

rsvman
03-17-2012, 01:27 PM
I must be the only one who noticed the real problem: the team played SCARED. They were tight. They resigned themselves to a fate well before the outcome was determined.

What they needed was CONFIDENCE, not motivation. This was the time for the coaching staff to do whatever it took to give them confidence, to let them feel like they could just go out and play basketball.

kingboozer
03-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately I had to witness this in person surrounded by obnoxious UNC fans holding up "Go Lehigh" signs the whole game. As to the game, LU did a great job defending our guards, they took that away from us and forced us into the paint a lot which hasn't been good for us all season. We took no risks from what I saw that whole game and it looked like we were playing not to lose rather than to win. We had several open looks from 3 point range and drove it to the basket instead expecting I guess to draw the foul which God knows wasn't happening with those refs last night. I love Austin and think he's a very talented player that showed sparks of greatness all season but we expected him to be "the guy" and take over games way too much, he's just not there yet and needs to stay at least another year under K. My hats off to Miles for a good season and a great 4 years at Duke. Even though he went out with a few bitter loses, he's still a National Champion and that will never be taken from him. I do hope that Shabazz comes because with him, Rasheed, and Austin, we could be dangerous next year. No matter what, Forever DUKE!

weezie
03-17-2012, 01:27 PM
......duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past ?

Too young to remember Goose Givens in Dallas, I conclude.

uh_no
03-17-2012, 01:28 PM
It is such a shame to see a team of guys with so much potential never live up to it. This team declined in play late in the season (not typically K), especially the last 4-5 games instead of getting better as the year progressed (typically K). I can't help but think they lost their legs as our 3 point shooting was abysmal the last part of the year. Missing Kelly clearly hurt us more than I think most people imagined it would. Yet I don't understand why if he was "available in certain situations" he was not at least put out there to give it a shot against Lehigh, nobody else could hit.
We lost this game because of Mason being in foul trouble, he was completely dominate early. Come back and show 'em what you can do as a Senior!
This makes two years in a row we underachieved in the tourney...

Guess I'm onto the recruiting scene now. Next year should be a vastly improved team if we land a couple of guys, and someone really takes over as leader. That's assuming AR and MP2 stay, as my gut says they will.

I think the potential may have been largely fabricated. We have a group of guys who largely lived in the shadows of other players....yes they were upperclassmen, but none of them were huge contributers in the past and a ton was asked of them.

We were able to play in July (?) in china, something a lot of other teams didn't have the opportunity to do this year, and I think hat extra prep helped us win some early games against really good teams, Michigan, Kansas....The disillusion was there. There were hints in the blowouts to OSU and the loss to temple, the fact that we eked out a lot of games we probably should have lost (Carolina, NCSU)...and had many close calls...

We knew defense would be a problem, and then with ryan out the offense went the same way.

Many of us came into the season with very tempered expectations, and I think a lot of us really upped those expectations after the play in maui, and again after the carolina win. We came back down to earth at the end of the season, and I think if we looked back to our INITIAL preseason expectations, that this would be a long year, a tough year, a rebuilding year, I think we should be incredibly happy with what we accomplished. A loss to a good lehigh team does not erase a season with lots of positive things.

kingboozer
03-17-2012, 01:29 PM
I must be the only one who noticed the real problem: the team played SCARED. They were tight. They resigned themselves to a fate well before the outcome was determined.

What they needed was CONFIDENCE, not motivation. This was the time for the coaching staff to do whatever it took to give them confidence, to let them feel like they could just go out and play basketball.

Oh I saw that, we looked like we had ran out of gas after the half.

Billy Dat
03-17-2012, 01:29 PM
i absolutely agree..........i don't know that today's kids appreciate a man like him anymore......they certainly seem to ignore the passion and desire he breathes.........i saw no will to win on duke's team in the closing minutes last night........none.......a total absence of passion.........that ain't Coach K.......in fact, all night long they loblollyied up and down the court trailing in the game.......no fire, no passion, no desire = just what duke got last night........

What you saw in the closing minutes was a team in a state of shock, they literally couldn't believe what was happening and that time was running out on them. When Mason's 1 for 2 cut it to a 2 point lead with 3 left, we had a couple of good looks to tie or take a lead and we missed, and then McCollum nailed that huge 3 to put them up 5. I think that's when Duke started to freak out and completely lost their cool. After a missed 3 >offensive rebound >missed shot we gave up that breakaway dunk which, to me, was the team still looking at the missed shots in disbelief and forgetting that they had to play D. I feel like we were mentally checked out after that, despite the near almost steal on the inbounds that would have given us a chance to tie.

As others have said, the FSU road win, in retrospect, seems like it was the high water mark of the year in terms of our play - a great road win against a ranked opponent late in the year with both teams vying for the regular season conference crown. Since that game, the team never even came close to playing at that level. The VTech 1>Wake>UNC>VTech 2>FSU 3>Lehigh stretch was simply brutal (with the FSU 3 game being, at least, a great effort). Obviously, the UNC road buzzer beater was the moment of the year, and the emotional high point, with Maui being right there, too.

Going out in the 2/15 game to a Patriot League squad leaves a really bad taste - imagine how the players and coaches feel. I hope Miles gets invited to a training camp - the kid has pro athletic ability and size despite his skill limitations.

Kedsy
03-17-2012, 01:29 PM
Too young to remember Goose Givens in Dallas, I conclude.

I'm almost certain Givens was in St. Louis (Purvis Ellison was in Dallas).

cspan37421
03-17-2012, 01:30 PM
I had a bad feeling when, at the start of the second half, TT and a Lehigh player had to be talked to for too much jawing at each other. We've seen that often this year - a surplus of woofing and a deficit of defense, the opposite of what I'd prefer to see.

There's a lot of individual talent on this squad, but it seems they have played less and less coherently as a team down the stretch. The defense was never great this year - though improving from the 100+ range (i.e., not even top 100!) to the mid 60s per Kenpom. But still - defense ranked mid 60s for a Duke team? The offense sputtered down the stretch and we could not sustain our top 10 offensive efficiency rating when push came to shove.

A look at some other statistics reveal much. This AM I checked ESPN and statsheet.com on our team and IF these figures are right, we weren't even in the top 200 in assists per game, at something like 12.5 for the whole team. We aren't ball-hawks (#190 in steals per game), so we don't get to pad our offensive numbers with fast breaks off turnovers. Rebounding - Tied #60th - and I'd like to see how that varies from frontcourt to backcourt. Free throw% - #132. A/T ratio: #127. Blocks/game: #88. Seriously - look these things up, you'll be amazed we were able to put together 27 wins and finish a game out of first place in the ACC season.

I absolutely disagree that we were outcoached. This is the same coaching staff that won the NCAAT a couple years ago, and a head coach that has more titles and wins than any active coach -. It's the player's job to execute the game plan, and I think we've seen enough games to notice many mistakes that are not in the game plan - lazy passes, losing your man on defense, guards not boxing out on long jumpers, sub-par free throw accuracy, failing to finish on drives to the hoop, poor shooting. None of those are the result of bad coaching.

Kudos to Lehigh for a well-earned win.

TNTDevil
03-17-2012, 01:31 PM
...duke got their butts handed to them by one guy last night......when has that ever happened in the past ?
Your grief must have clouded your history of Duke Basketball.

"That" has happened plenty of times in the past to Duke. Even to teams much better than this year's squad.

In fact, it's one of the "signs" that Duke is in trouble during a game- when the opponent has one guy just "go off" against us.

ETA: I now see other's have contributed on this thought with more specifics. Well done.

weezie
03-17-2012, 01:32 PM
Unfortunately I had to witness this in person surrounded by obnoxious UNC fans holding up "Go Lehigh" signs the whole game.

Holy smokes, this deserves an entire thread. Insufferably jeering, shoving, yowling and monkeying it up the entire game, the tarholes were beyond the pale.
There's no real description for the level of barefaced hate they exhibited. I so hope they choke on their own bile.
Curse them.

weezie
03-17-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm almost certain Givens was in St. Louis (Purvis Ellison was in Dallas).

You are correct, sir, and I apologize for my slip up.

zack2014
03-17-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm not trying to pin this loss on the refs since Duke got outplayed last night, but did anyone see what happened on the intentional foul that was called? I think it was called on Thornton but the camera angle didn't have him in view when I looked for a replay.

Jackson
03-17-2012, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this or not, but here goes. It seemed like all year the team lacked the usual defensive intensity and focus. I always have been more excited to watch Duke play defense more than offense. Last night when the game was on the line, defensively, Duke played on their heels, playing scared, and Lehigh had swagger. There have been very few games this year that have generated the usual excitement for me defensively. I'm anxious to see what happens next year, who stays and who goes. My main observation is that we lacked a true defensive stopper at all this year. Maybe someone already on the team can step up next year. Maybe there is a positive recruiting surprise coming in. It's just depressing to see this team that seemingly failed to buy into the usual enthusiasm as a unit for playing defense. Ultimately, that is what ended the season.

uh_no
03-17-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm not trying to pin this loss on the refs since Duke got outplayed last night, but did anyone see what happened on the intentional foul that was called? I think it was called on Thornton but the camera angle didn't have him in view when I looked for a replay.

I was called on thornton (not on seth, like the announcers seemed to think)...and i believe it was for a push from behind, but you couldn't see it really from the front angle

weezie
03-17-2012, 01:39 PM
I'm not trying to pin this loss on the refs since Duke got outplayed last night, but did anyone see what happened on the intentional foul that was called? I think it was called on Thornton but the camera angle didn't have him in view when I looked for a replay.

I thought Seth was down first and McCollum fell onto him and then Tyler tripped into the scrum. Actually thought it was an intentional on lehigh at first. Someone else said it must have been a leg grab by Tyler but we never saw the foul in replay inside the stadium.
It was the dagger, for sure.

jv001
03-17-2012, 01:39 PM
The year began with many positives, but ended with many more negatives. We didn't play good Duke man to man defense all year, even though we did improve toward the end of the year. At the beginning of the year, our offense looked good. Then as the year rolled on our offense got worse. I think as Andre went so did our offense. By years end we were reduced to dribbling the air out of the ball and players standing around watching the dribbler. We had no one that could penetrate and finish. We had no one that could penetrate and dish the ball to open shooters. Our big men began the year with good jump hook shots, but as the year went on, that shot disappeared. It seemed like every ACC game was closer than it should have been and we seemed to always begin the game slowly. Next years team is going to be made up with mostly the same players with one or two recruits coming aboard. I don't know what to expect of Sheed, but if he can play man to man defense, he likely will be in the rotation with major minutes. I'm confident Coach K will make the necessary adjustment and some players may get their feeling hurt(some parents also). GoDuke!

-jk
03-17-2012, 01:42 PM
I was called on thornton (not on seth, like the announcers seemed to think)...and i believe it was for a push from behind, but you couldn't see it really from the front angle

I think Tyler grabbed his jersey and held it. It didn't show in the replay angles, though.

-jk

uh_no
03-17-2012, 01:43 PM
I think Tyler grabbed his jersey and held it. It didn't show in the replay angles, though.

-jk

That would make sense....ND i think got nailed on the same call at the end of last nights game....(then the same exact lane violation the guy from UNCA did the night before.....every coach needs to review that rule with their guys)

Dukehky
03-17-2012, 01:43 PM
This team just doesn't seem to have the fire that has become inherent with being a Duke basketball team. I'll say that Tyler has it in spades, but he's just not athletic/skilled enough to back it up, but at least he plays his butt off every single minute. Austin gets fired up, but it doesn't really seem to hit anyone else.

McCollum is a great player, but every time we run into a team with a great player thats a little under the radar, he ends up dropping 25 or more on us. I think a part of that is that K wants that player be volume shooters and limit everyone elses attempts. I don't particularly agree with this message, but since we don't have the athletes or size on the perimeter (especially after foul trouble) to deal with him effectively, maybe this is the best way to go. I'd rather have somebody who can do a good defensive job, like that LSU kid in 2006 did on JJ (one of the best defensive performances I've ever seen)

These guards, I don't know when it became okay to not even look for a big after a pick and roll, there were double digit times when Mason or Miles rolled perfectly to the rim and the guards didn't even look. I understand that none of them are good passers, but at least look. The only one they hit was Hairston and he finished it, Hairston finished it (after walking).

Our lack of athleticism on the perimeter is a serious problem, and thankfully its getting at least a little bit better with Rasheed, hopefully a lot better with Bazz and hopefully Mike G improves enough to become a serious player next year.

What do people think about Mason's upcoming decision? It really seems to me that all he did last night was dunk the ball and make relatively uncontested layups, no good, effective post moves in particular, but he still scored 19 I think? I keep waiting for this next level that everyone says the Plumlees can reach, but I just don't know if it's coming, and Mason may need to get out before NBA teams start asking that too. We really, really need Austin to stay IMO. I think Seth would be better coming off the bench next year with less pressure, he's not a marquee scorer, he's a great 3rd option who can put up 1st option points when he's not one of the focal points of a scouting report.


This season was bad for my heart, huge wins at the last minute and bad losses, but as much as I love Duke basketball, I never loved this team. I loved certain players at certain times, but the team itself never got me, and I hate that it didn't cause I love it when it does. But... on to the next.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-17-2012, 01:47 PM
Lehigh's a good team and made some plays, so we first have to credit their focus.

You know what's coming from me.... what I've been predicting and saying all year....No commitment to feeding the inside and lack of back to the basket post offense caught up with Duke on a poor shooting night.

I have great respect for coach K, but it's been obvious, at least to me, that Duke needed to loosen up the perimiter by feeding the post to create the balance necessary to be an elite team.
It seemed coach K saw it too, but he never got this team to do it consistently.

Duke could not manufacture points by feeding the post effectively all year. Duke could score inside, but if you look back this season, very few plays inside resulting in scores began with a post player having his back to the basket. Watch the teams that continue on in the tourney and you will see the best teams looking to feed the back to the basket post players in close games, creating oportunities and forcing defenses to pack it in.

This Duke weakness allowed teams to stick to the shooters and force more contested shots, especially the ones off the dribble, which are tougher than those spot up jumpers Duke was getting from kick outs or space created when teams were concerned about inside play earlier in the season. Teams challenged Duke by giving up the post and Duke did not capitalize.

We also need to recognize neither Kelly or Hairston is Kyle Singler, it's a talent issue.
Singler's play allowed Duke to use the center spot as a cleanup, rebounding or transition scoring position and not depend on dumping it inside to score. This team did not have that luxury. They not only needed some post scoring, but needed it in a way that would open up the outside.

Also a lack of communication on defense hurt, which coach K has preached about all season, and gave up some key baskets.

It wasn't a bad season, and I thought they played hard, if not totally together, all year.

UNC is gonna get bounced too, sooner or later, if they can't shoot better from outside. Their weakness is just as great as Dukes was inside, IMO.

TNTDevil
03-17-2012, 01:48 PM
I must be the only one who noticed the real problem: the team played SCARED. They were tight. They resigned themselves to a fate well before the outcome was determined.

What they needed was CONFIDENCE, not motivation. This was the time for the coaching staff to do whatever it took to give them confidence, to let them feel like they could just go out and play basketball.Coach mentioned this in his post-game comments. Something to the effect of: "...they came out bold and played bold. we came out tentative and played that way."

Couldn't agree more.

jv001
03-17-2012, 01:55 PM
GoD
Lehigh's a good team and made some plays, so we first have to credit their focus.

You know what's coming from me.... what I've been predicting and saying all year....No commitment to feeding the inside and lack of back to the basket post offense caught up with Duke on a poor shooting night.

I have great respect for coach K, but it's been obvious, at least to me, that Duke needed to loosen up the perimiter by feeding the post to create the balance necessary to be an elite team.
It seemed coach K saw it too, but he never got this team to do it consistently.

Duke could not manufacture points by feeding the post effectively all year. Duke could score inside, but if you look back this season, very few plays inside resulting in scores began with a post player having his back to the basket. Watch the teams that continue on in the tourney and you will see the best teams looking to feed the back to the basket post players in close games, creating oportunities and forcing defenses to pack it in.

This Duke weakness allowed teams to stick to the shooters and force more contested shots, especially the ones off the dribble, which are tougher than those spot up jumpers Duke was getting from kick outs or space created when teams were concerned about inside play earlier in the season. Teams challenged Duke by giving up the post and Duke did not capitalize.

We also need to recognize neither Kelly or Hairston is Kyle Singler, it's a talent issue.
Singler's play allowed Duke to use the center spot as a cleanup, rebounding or transition scoring position and not depend on dumping it inside to score. This team did not have that luxury. They not only needed some post scoring, but needed it in a way that would open up the outside.

Also a lack of communication on defense hurt, which coach K has preached about all season, and gave up some key baskets.

It wasn't a bad season, and I thought they played hard, if not totally together, all year.

UNC is gonna get bounced too, sooner or later, if they can't shoot better from outside. Their weakness is just as great as Dukes was inside, IMO.

Good post Wheat. At the beginning of the year we got the ball into Mason and Miles and they showed a good jump hook shot. But for some reason we went away from that. We had no one that could drive and finish and also distribute the ball to the open man. Seth went from a pretty good ball handler to a bad ball handler. And yes it hurt not to have a 6'7-6-8" sf. Can't say wait till next year with great conviction. GoDuke!

MB in MD
03-17-2012, 01:59 PM
We got a lot of good looks, they just didn't go in. I don't think we had an issue with floor spacing. Curry took his usual shots. Dawkins took his usual shots. So did Rivers. We just missed shots.

I don't agree with this. In fact Lehigh missed more open looks than we did, by a lot. They scouted us well and cut off what amounts to our one offensive play (other than Austin going one on one), trying to free someone on high screens. They were cutting off the dribblers but rotating so as not to leave other shooters open for a kick, which is just what FSU did against us so successfully in the tourney (For that matter VT did it too, only they made the decision that it was ok to leave Tyler open). That's why we missed Kelly so much, because that gives us another option on those plays that would have made it that much harder for them to cover. I'm sure they watched film.

I've been struck by how poorly we've taken advantage of our bigs all year. I think the biggest thing missing from this team was a guard who could feed the post. Almost all great 3 point shooting teams (including ours from past years) run their offense from inside out. This happens one of 3 ways--penetration and a kick, with a skip pass if the first option is covered; entry passes and then distribution from a passing big, or, if you have a monster offensive rebounder like Z, by generating 3s as second chance points. We have often been a 3-point shooting team but I don't think we've ever relied on generating as much of our offense by dribbling around on the perimeter and that isn't a formula for long term success.

superdave
03-17-2012, 02:00 PM
UNC is gonna get bounced too, sooner or later, if they can't shoot better from outside. Their weakness is just as great as Dukes was inside, IMO.

God, please let this happen tomorrow.

In the rest of your post, I think you are right. No balance on O. And no D.

duke96
03-17-2012, 02:01 PM
Really DBR? The site had to go down for that long just at the time when people wanted to get online and reflect? I realize that people get a bit out of sorts when we lose like this (esp late on a Friday nite). But it seems to me you denied your community just when we kinda wanted you most. Just food for thought for next time (hopefully there won't be too many "next times" like this one!).

grossbus
03-17-2012, 02:03 PM
Just want to add my appreciation for what miles did for his career and this season. In my opinion, he was the only one to lift his game at the of the season. 58 rebounds in 11 games, I think. Lots of picks set. As was pointed out, not a lot of looks to him as he rolled to the basket, a play that was certainly there.

What will Murphy and MP3 bring next year? Time will tell. A lot of time to wait. :(

CTDukeFan
03-17-2012, 02:04 PM
I was as disappointed as the rest of you after last night's game. It was difficult to watch as Lehigh made all the big plays to seal the game. After the game as I sat on my couch in a near coma, I decided to turn to ESPNEWS to watch the post-game interviews. That's when I saw Coach K and my disappointment turned to pride as he gave such a gracious and classy postgame interview. He made no excuses, expressed his disappointment, and gave all the credit to Lehigh. I can only hope I would have such poise after such a disappointing loss. As I turned off the tube to head to bed I felt reassured about our program and our leader. He is the best.

When I saw the post-game press conference I too had similar thoughts. Coach K was so classy. He accepted responsibility for the offense not flowing well. He gave credit to Lehigh for playing well. He expressed disappointment at losing. Coach K has a great vision of the long game. He knows that how he acts after a loss is important to the long-term status of the program and acts accordingly. He also realizes that he can't control what happened in the past, but he can control how he reacts to it. A reality I know I could remember more often.

Thanks Miles.

I'll keep cheering for my other favorite team in the tournament - whomever's playing Carolina. :-)

WakeDevil
03-17-2012, 02:04 PM
A Patriot League team should not be getting 14 more free throws or committing 4 fewer turnovers.

McCollum scored 30 but was an effective 10-24 from the field and 10-16 from the line. I wouldn't call that a dominating performance.

uh_no
03-17-2012, 02:04 PM
Really DBR? The site had to go down for that long just at the time when people wanted to get online and reflect? I realize that people get a bit out of sorts when we lose like this (esp late on a Friday nite). But it seems to me you denied your community just when we kinda wanted you most. Just food for thought for next time (hopefully there won't be too many "next times" like this one!).

The mods explained their decision last year, and I think the same explanation applies:

when the board is left open after a loss like that,people tend to overreact hugely....resulting in large numbers of bans/violations. As the mods don't really want to spend all night policing posts like "everyone on our team is terrible" or some such, it makes much more sense to let people calm down...then people don't get banned (so we can actually HAVE discussion) and the mods don't have to sit there all night banning people.

Saratoga2
03-17-2012, 02:04 PM
Congratulations to Lehigh for playing an excellent game and moving on. Their defense was active and was excellent at preventing penetration. They essentially shut down Austin from getting into the lane. Austin only got his points with extreme effort. Lehigh also pushed the ball up off their offense and got a number of points in that manner. It helped to have such a great guard in McCollum, but they were aggressive and even got a couple of smart breakaways at the end of the game. Lehigh also got excellent penetration from McCollum and their second guard, who also was tough to handle. That penetration led directly to points and also to the kick outs for corner threes. Had they hit more of these, the game would have been more lopsided. Finally, they did enough rebounding with good positioning and hustle to keep that stat close. It hurt that we had a large part of the game with one or the other of the Plumlee's rotating out. When in the game together, they were tough for Lehigh to handle. Again, congratulations for a well planned and executed game plan from a team with a lot of capability.

On Duke's side clearly Mason had an excellent game, with his dunks and rebounding. Bigs all seem to have trouble with bounce passes that double and triple teams can get their hands on. I don't fault Mason for those losses, but the one passing to him. I also thought Austin played an excellent game under very difficult circumstances. Our three point shooting was not as open as Lehigh's and we just weren't hitting those as was the trend late in the year. Still a 27 win season for Duke. A disappointment for the kids and coaches, but such is life. We also didn't push the ball which is not our style with Tyler as PG. Our defense was not good at preventing penetration albeit against a very good set of guards. The difference between our and Lehigh's defense was obvious. Have to do something about that next year.

Going forward we will have a potential loss of Austin and/or Mason along with Miles. Hate to see that happen, given that our small forwards got so little PT this year. Love to see us come out solidly in the recruiting derby, especially if we lose our key guys from this year.

jv001
03-17-2012, 02:07 PM
Just want to add my appreciation for what miles did for his career and this season. In my opinion, he was the only one to lift his game at the of the season. 58 rebounds in 11 games, I think. Lots of picks set. As was pointed out, not a lot of looks to him as he rolled to the basket, a play that was certainly there.

What will Murphy and MP3 bring next year? Time will tell. A lot of time to wait. :(

Yeh lost in my disappointment of last night's defeat, I too would like to say thanks to Miles for a good Duke career and a very good senior year. Thanks big guy and God Bless you young man. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
03-17-2012, 02:11 PM
Before anyone impugns the character or dedication of this year's roster, just remember that Scheyer, Singler, Zoubek, Lance etc were lucky to not lose to 15 seed Belmont in 2008 before eventually winning the national championship in 2010. The 1986 team that went to the title game got a major scare from a 16 seed as well and no one would question their character or dedication. It's just not about that.

For this year's team, it was too much to overcome when strength (offense) became weakness following Kelly's injury (and also, imo, Austin becoming fatigued at the end of the season and unable to be shoot). You need to stay healthy and have your strengths be strengths to make a run. A medicore offense to go with an already mediocre defense isn't going to cut it.

Going forward, hopefully Ryan's injury isn't serious. Hopefully he doesn't need surgery and months rehabbing. Hopefully Austin and Mason come back for another run, and hopefully Duke lands some of the recruits we're after.

Finally, thank you Miles. Hopefully he finds peace with this loss and goes on to fulfill whatever his life goals are. It was devastating to me to see him so devastated in the postgame presser.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-17-2012, 02:12 PM
The mods explained their decision last year, and I think the same explanation applies:

when the board is left open after a loss like that,people tend to overreact hugely....resulting in large numbers of bans/violations. As the mods don't really want to spend all night policing posts like "everyone on our team is terrible" or some such, it makes much more sense to let people calm down...then people don't get banned (so we can actually HAVE discussion) and the mods don't have to sit there all night banning people.

I understand and remember this from years past too, but I also find it disappointing. After the game I was hoping to find solace in a community of people who understand my disappointment and anguish. Somehow, the closed message board just contributes to the sad finality of it all.

It's a shame that some morons have to ruin it for all the rest of us. Such is life, I suppose.

GarrickB28
03-17-2012, 02:12 PM
I was wondering if anyone had any inside knowledge on the specific team chemistry issues that have been discussed above....Was it the cause of Dre's shooting etc...

Wheat/"/"/"
03-17-2012, 02:13 PM
Really DBR? The site had to go down for that long just at the time when people wanted to get online and reflect? I realize that people get a bit out of sorts when we lose like this (esp late on a Friday nite). But it seems to me you denied your community just when we kinda wanted you most. Just food for thought for next time (hopefully there won't be too many "next times" like this one!).

For those of us board members who've been around since the beginning, who've seen how nasty Internet forums can get and how moderators can get overwhelmed in time of passion, it's understandable.

DBR is an island in a world of "!(& for ACC fans.....keep the beaches clean.

OrangeDevil
03-17-2012, 02:17 PM
After watching a very impressive Bucknell team take it to and dismantle Arizona in Tucson in NIT action, I was not particularly surprised that Lehigh rose to the occasion. Unlike those who engage in the by now predictable pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth following an unexpected Duke loss, I am quite impressed with the success Coach K and staff were able to squeeze out of this year's edition. As many are now acknowledging, the components of our team this year were limited in a variety of ways. Our defense was sieve-like in its inability to stop dribble penetration into the lane. And despite a surfeit of guards, none of them possessed the full range of skills needed to control the game or make teammates better. And I continue to be concerned about the state of Duke's post presence. I am afraid that the deficiencies in this area have become a definitive self-fulfilling prophecy that our oppenents are exploiting both on the court and, more especially, in recruiting. Finally, the lack of meaningful depth was more apparent this season than is has been in recent years. All this said, this has been a successful year: running the table on the ACC away slate, Maui triumph, the classic in Chapel Hill, and almost 30 wins. This is a solid record of achievement to be proud of despite the first round loss.

weezie
03-17-2012, 02:17 PM
To illustrate the level of stupendous idiotic internet drooling, head on over to the pasty blue forums and watch the monkeys over there throw their excrement.
Between the whole bunch of them, they might have three teeth.

Devilsfan
03-17-2012, 02:20 PM
This year the team seemed dis-jointed. Trying to find answers to the question: How is this season different from all other seasons? The answer I keep coming up with is the addition to our coaching staff. Just my opinion.

bluedevilfan1998
03-17-2012, 02:25 PM
Congrats to Lehigh on a great win.

Not sure if anyone saw Rivers' interview last night.
One of the best interviews I've ever seen.
Good luck to Miles and any team who is playing UNC.

sagegrouse
03-17-2012, 02:27 PM
Here are a couple of impressions about the game and the NCAAs this year:


The NCAA field is deep, deep, deep. I watched Lehigh, the Bonnies, bits and pieces of the Ohio Bobcats, and all of Norfolk State -- three of whom won as 15, 15 and 13 seeds. These are good teams. Lehigh? Wow!

Given Lehigh's talent at the G position, this was, for Duke, a survive-and-advance game. We, of course, could have rolled over them with our inside height and strength, but this never seems to happen with this team, and especially without Ryan Kelly. And we also could have shot them out of the gym (sigh!), but that hasn't happened in the last few weeks.

That we didn't survive and advance had something to do with the foul situation (although it would have been nice not to miss our first nine shots from beyond the arc). When Seth went to the bench, we had only one offensive threat on the floor -- and then some folks have criticized Austin's shot selection.


sagegrouse

Wheat/"/"/"
03-17-2012, 02:28 PM
To illustrate the level of stupendous idiotic internet drooling, head on over to the pasty blue forums and watch the monkeys over there throw their excrement.
Between the whole bunch of them, they might have three teeth.

Deep breaths there weezie....it's just sports and there's always another season.

I took a look at the Devils Den board and I'd argue it's worse there than "the pasty blue forums".

cspan37421
03-17-2012, 02:32 PM
This year the team seemed dis-jointed. Trying to find answers to the question: How is this season different from all other seasons? The answer I keep coming up with is the addition to our coaching staff. Just my opinion.

IDK about that but it is interesting to notice that 3 of our top assistants were all Duke guards during the mid 90s, an era of rather underwhelming success bookended by championship-caliber eras. [Though Collins started much of the year for the '94 team, during his upperclassman years Duke had middling success]

freedevil
03-17-2012, 02:46 PM
Just adding my appreciation for Miles. His post-game remarks about not wanting to be remembered for this game were very thoughtful, but this fan will remember Miles for his contributions to a National Championship and his ridiculous dunks. A great four years. Congrats to him on a wonderful career.

Lehigh played well.

Go Duke.

Devilsfan
03-17-2012, 02:50 PM
Miles became a MAN in the last two months. All Duke fans loved and appreciated his recent play.

Zeke
03-17-2012, 02:51 PM
I can remember when UNLV just ran over Duke (and particularly Bobby Hurley) in ?1990 (was it really that long ago). Anyway that was the worst, but UNLV wasn't a 15th seed. Guys tried but couldn't on that night, but next year it was all different.

naclsean
03-17-2012, 02:52 PM
I was wondering if anyone had any inside knowledge on the specific team chemistry issues that have been discussed above....Was it the cause of Dre's shooting etc...

I've never posted on these boards but I assure you I am a true Duke fan. I have been since 86 when Dawkins and company beat Navy and David Robinson. My dad told me that I was born at Duke hospital as he cheered for his alma mater Navy to beat Duke. I instead chose to cheer for Duke because that was where I was born. Duke won that game went to the final four and I became a Duke fan for life.

I have watched many teams throughout the years and this one gave us many great memories. The Kansas game in Maui, the NC State game in Cameron, and the UNC game at chapel hill were incredible games that were some of the best games I have seen in 25+ years. I loved this team's will to win. But I would be silly to say that this team had great chemistry. I noticed it at CTC when Dawkins and Curry got very excited about beating Rivers team. I wondered then if they really liked each other. I saw it again in the teams body language throughout the season. You just never were sure if they really got along. When I heard the report that the team had voted to boycott social media sights to work on their team relationship, I thought that was a good sign. I think it helped as we saw them start to come together at the UNC game in Chapel Hill. They played well together at FSU and it looked like they made the turn in becoming a team. But there was obviously some animosity the last couple of weeks and Curry and Rivers both hinted to that in their post game interviews last night. We were not a fist last night, but instead five fingers trying to be an inferior opponent.

Kelly's injury hurt us because he was the quiet leader that kept everyone cool. The other leader of this team, Thornton, got some bad foul calls on him last night and it took his head out of the game. I'm not blaming him, but I believe his leadership was key to them staying together. Well that is what I think and that doesn't mean much.

I believe Thornton made the best comment after the game when he said we will be at the gym tomorrow practicing. I will not give up these guys, they are too talented to not get better. I hope they all come back because they do have something to prove now. I also want to thank Miles for four awesome years. Hope to see him in the NBA next season.

sagegrouse
03-17-2012, 02:53 PM
This year the team seemed dis-jointed. Trying to find answers to the question: How is this season different from all other seasons? The answer I keep coming up with is the addition to our coaching staff. Just my opinion.


IDK about that but it is interesting to notice that 3 of our top assistants were all Duke guards during the mid 90s, an era of rather underwhelming success bookended by championship-caliber eras. [Though Collins started much of the year for the '94 team, during his upperclassman years Duke had middling success]

I don't know if it's glue or dope you guys are sniffing, but I want some. Capel is the son of a coach, was a successful assistant and head coach at ODU, and had his good moments at Oklahoma. K thought enough of Jeff to bring him onto the staff and then to give him greater responsibility -- he sat with the players during the game the last half of the season. Collins and Wojo have the complete confidence of sibillant K. Since a "fish stinks from the head," any inadequacies of the assistants go directly to the head coach that hired and tasked them. Or, maybe you have a different view?

We get to do an experiment, nevertheless, if one or two of the three depart for HC gigs. I expect that to happen. Then, presumably, Nate James, who has a ring, returns to his former role.

sagegrouse

dukemsu
03-17-2012, 02:56 PM
But I still watched almost all the games. A few thoughts:

1. Duke has always had its best teams when it had an elite point guard. Seth, Tyler, and Quinn all took shots at it with varying levels of success, but none made it to an elite level at both ends. Even the "surprise" champs of 2010 had really solid, consistent point guard play with Jon.

2. I was worried about Lehigh right away, as I saw them come into Breslin earlier this season and play Michigan State tough for 40 minutes. They're good. McCollum can and did go off, but they are just a tough, well-schooled bunch of players who weren't uncomfortable in any situation.

3. Miles and Mason both came a long way, though the results weren't always consistent. But they've improved enough to help put to bed some of the Duke Big Man stuff. Mason was a bear last night.

4. As for the board closing down, well, I thought it was an acceptable decision. The entire nation cheered as Duke fell (other than Duke fans), so just from an invasion standpoint I thought it was a good call. The sun came up today. As bad as Duke alums/fans feel, keep in mind that the players and coaches feel a lot worse.

5. Chemistry is a real, tangible thing in basketball. This team never seemed to fully develop it, though I don't buy the "no fire in the belly" nonsense. The parts just never seemed to fully come together. Looking forward to next season already.

All the best to Miles. I've enjoyed watching the young man play and improve. Hope Austin and Mason return, though I suspect that won't be the case on both of them.

dukemsu

Kishiznit
03-17-2012, 03:03 PM
First of all, I agree with the mods' decision to lock it up last night. Coming from someone that has been suspended after a conference loss, I was protected by this move.

Key observations:
-all season when we needed a bucket, we would go to the high pick and roll. It was defended last night to perfection. It would have been nice to see what would have happened if Austin came off the pick and reversed the ball to have a 2 on 1 situation; we never made any adjustments to their defense of this play.
-DUKE haters continue to make the comment "live and die by the 3" - I never take offense to this because it is our style. I like our chances and unfortunately last night we didn't survive.
-like many posters have stated, I think the trip to china allowed this team to be stronger out of the gate. We constantly played to the level of our competition since this trip and hopefully our kids will develop that killer attitude to blow teams away like we had a decade ago.
- I need to be careful what I wish for...over the last 20 years I have been critical of the coaching staff for only concentrating on athletic 6'5-6'7" wing players and having an abundance. I miss those days, I take back my complaints.
-I will miss Miles Plumlee...he is a champion and I'm glad he stayed on the East Coast. Thank you Miles!
-I know that these kids will work hard in the offseason and I can't wait to book my trip to the Bahamas
(can someone confirm??) for tourney next year.
-K handled last night night with so much Klass...proud to be a DUKE fan!

Furniture
03-17-2012, 03:08 PM
Hello
How can I see the after game press conference?

Pernell
03-17-2012, 03:11 PM
I disagree. The desire was there. The effort was there. We lacked quickness to blow by their guards or to defend their guards, and K didn't adjust. Btw, Mccollum is the best player in the tourney and certainly, the best player Duke's played against all year. He IS that good and showed it last night. He will be i NBA a long time.

I would agree. I think the team definitely had the desire to win but we were plagued by our persistent Achille's heel, our perimeter defense.
Aside from Austin, our guards don't have the foot speed to keep up with typical athletic guards. This has been an issue for awhile and should be a surprise
to no one.

Mccollum is a talented player, but the best player in the tourney? I mean, I know that one shining moment will highlight his moves against Duke(as they often do when Duke exits early)
but c'mon, the best player in the tourney? I think he played a great game but some of his best plays were made against Hairston and Curry.

What I hope to see next year, is some evidence that the assistants have worked with our guards in terms of their quickness. It's a shame that Dawkins, who totally disappeared the last month of the season.
was unable to get on the court in stretches toward the end of the season because he is a liability on defense. I'm also interested to see how the younger Plumlee has developed during his redshirt year. And I would
agree with other posters who question the development of our players. I think that's always been a critique of K and it still holds today.

Austin is nice, definitely has game. But he needs to refine his game and be more decisive with his moves. Everyone on the court knows that he's going to take a few dribbles and dribble backwards or sideways and contemplate
what he's going to do. The beauty of Kyrie, and there is only one Kyrie, is that he goes N to S and he forces defenses to make decisions based on his decisive moves. Austin is a phenomenal talent and I love his first step. But
sometimes I would love for him to just commit to his moves more quickly.

Much more to say, but I'll write more later. Just focus on praying that Carolina does not win the championship this year:)

sjl14
03-17-2012, 03:16 PM
First of all, I commend the moderators for taking proactive measures against the inevitable venting and nonconstructive criticism after the game last night. As a fan of course I am disappointed in the outcome, but as always the team demonstrated a level of class that is rare in basketball today. I'm proud to see that same decorum among the posters on DBR.

On to the game. I personally thought Andre Dawkins should have gotten more shots in the second half, he has always been our best three shooter and we definitely needed a few for a comeback. It didn't seem like the other guys, especially the big men, were looking to kick it out to Dre. By my eye he seemed to be loosely guarded most of the night. The other key, in my opinion, was that Thornton was playing too unselfishly. He has a habit of deferring to his teammates, but is a more than capable slasher/scorer when hes looking for his own shot. We could have used his offense last night. Other than that, we just got beat by an excellent Lehigh team who I think could give Kentucky a run for their money. We should all be looking forward to next season. Go Duke!

MCFinARL
03-17-2012, 03:21 PM
This year the team seemed dis-jointed. Trying to find answers to the question: How is this season different from all other seasons? The answer I keep coming up with is the addition to our coaching staff. Just my opinion.

This is one of the best (or, looked at another way, worst) examples of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning I have ever seen, and since I teach college writing I have seen a few. You might just as logically say that the team is different because two players are redshirted, or because they wore hideous Nike uniforms in one game, and that these events are to blame for disjointed play. I'd need a LOT more evidence before I drew any conclusions about the relationship between coaching changes and team cohesion.


I don't know if it's glue or dope you guys are sniffing, but I want some. Capel is the son of a coach, was a successful assistant and head coach at ODU, and had his good moments at Oklahoma. K thought enough of Jeff to bring him onto the staff and then to give him greater responsibility -- he sat with the players during the game the last half of the season. Collins and Wojo have the complete confidence of sibillant K. Since a "fish stinks from the head," any inadequacies of the assistants go directly to the head coach that hired and tasked them. Or, maybe you have a different view?

sagegrouse
Agreed.

Starter
03-17-2012, 03:24 PM
I actually didn't see the game. My fiancee and I were on our way to a bar/restaurant to watch a DJ we were thinking of booking for our wedding (and in my case, to watch the second half of the game), when a guy made a left turn directly into us at an intersection for a head-on collision. The other guy was at fault and there was nothing I could have done. Luckily, we were both relatively okay -- I was somehow completely unblemished, and she had some bumps and bruises but nothing more. While I was standing outside giving the police report, my phone was blowing up with texts and tweets about the Duke game, and I honestly couldn't care less. I just kept seeing the other car coming at us, and I was relieved my fiancee was okay. (Me? I'm indestructible.)

I know it's a cliche, but something like that really puts a Duke loss, even one in the first round to a Patriot League school, in perspective. What are you going to do? They just didn't have it, especially without Kelly, whom I have a whole new respect for. But there are SO many more important things in life to think about and worry about. You know? Duke's a big part of our lives, but it's not even close to all there is.

spinoza
03-17-2012, 03:24 PM
From Sportsillustratedcnn.com:


Lehigh had all the answers. If it seemed as if the Mountain Hawks knew what Duke was going to run, it's because they did. At several points Duke would flash its signals for an offensive set only to have Head Coach Reed and his assistants spring to their feet, flashing the same signals and calling out the plays to their defense.

Asked later if they knew what was coming, Reed grinned and said, "We pride ourselves on being one of the nation's most prepared teams, and this was one of the longest preps we've ever had."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/ted_keith/03/17/lehigh.upsets.duke/index.html

Lehigh seemed well prepared and had a lot of time to get ready to play Duke.
Still, we could have won if only we hit a few more 3's.

muzikfrk75
03-17-2012, 03:26 PM
I disagree. The desire was there. The effort was there. We lacked quickness to blow by their guards or to defend their guards, and K didn't adjust. Btw, Mccollum is the best player in the tourney and certainly, the best player Duke's played against all year. He IS that good and showed it last night. He will be in NBA a long time.

He's not even the best player in his region.

sjl14
03-17-2012, 03:30 PM
He's not even the best player in his region.

He's AT LEAST on par with Anthony Davis...

Zafort
03-17-2012, 03:31 PM
Hate to say it, but I think that we got flat out-coached last night...with the talent level we have, there is no reason why we should not have pulled out the win.

Yes, Coach K and the staff has done an incredible job throughout the year (excluding last 3 weeks) of overplaying our talent against tougher opponents. But the development of the players was not there, and when we needed a change and a spark, just could not get done.

That being said, good luck to Miles - one of the class guys to have come through the Duke program.

One sign that the coaching was deficient is that our losses in the last four games (and probably in the one we won) revealed that the opposing coaches learned to have their bigs come off a Plumlee screen to stifle the ball handler long enough for the man guarding him to recover enough to shut him down and prevent a good look at the basket or a drive toward the basket.
Another apparent sign of coaching nonadjustment was the inability to defend against penetration and prevent offensive rebounds that usually led to scores. This is not a blanket condemnation since the bounce of the ball did easily overcome the best situated defender often enough. Duke did lead in offensive rebounds yesterday, but the impression left from this game was that Lehigh benefitted more from its ORs than did Duke. I'll have to check the recording, painful as that will be, to verify that assumption.
Since these weakness were blatantly evident in the first half of the second Carolina game and apparently corrected in the second half--which Duke "won" (Rah!)--why did they resurface in the FSU and Lehigh games?

Another mystery is why Duke never seemed to have enough confidence in Michael Gbinije's athleticism to put him into games this year. Perhaps some of you know. At the beginning of the season he displayed the kind of speedy finesse that reminded me of Grant Hill. Why was he relegated to meaningless minutes?:cool:

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 03:32 PM
He's not even the best player in his region.

He clearly was the best player in last night's game.

sagegrouse
03-17-2012, 03:35 PM
Hello
How can I see the after game press conference?

Go to "goduke.com." Click on "Duke Falls in NCAA Tourney." When picture of the game appears above, click on picture to go article. In the right box on the article page is a video notation and the headline, "Press Conference: Coach K, Miles and Mason Plumlee." Or, go to Men's Basketball on contents on left of front page and go to the story.

sage

Gthoma2a
03-17-2012, 03:40 PM
I have to say. Watching this tournament is hard, but looking at the teams that are still in it, I can see the difference. These teams just want it too much for trepidation. They are playing like thisgame is everything. It is something that we had a couple of years ago, but not really in the NCAA the past couple of years. Ohio State and Zaga are fighting for every loose ball, nobody is going unobstructed, and they are playing volleyball with every rebound they can't grab to keep it alive. I think it was just the personality of this team to be reluctant to go all out all game. I hope we get that kind of personality next year. I think Lehigh, Norfolk State and so many other underdog teams prove that attitude is one of the biggest parts of winning in this environment. They don't have the best players in the country, but they fight to get the most out of themselves. That, and they trust their teammates. We were a team of individuals towards the end. I don't really want to see isolation offense anymore.

diveonthefloor
03-17-2012, 03:40 PM
A buddy of mine put it like this:
Last night's first game loss sort of like ripping off a bandaid quickly.

This team, IMO overachieved all year. As teams began to scout us better and the year wore on, our margin for error became smaller and smaller.

As for the youngsters on next year's team, the character building nature of a disappointing loss will no doubt serve as great motivation to put in the work necessary to become a champion down the road. Just look at the 82-83 team. Tyler's announcement last night that he would be in the gym "at practice" today tells me that Duke Basketball still has that character.

The future is what we make of it, and that future is bright.

kville33
03-17-2012, 03:43 PM
First of all, I commend the moderators for taking proactive measures against the inevitable venting and nonconstructive criticism after the game last night. As a fan of course I am disappointed in the outcome, but as always the team demonstrated a level of class that is rare in basketball today. I'm proud to see that same decorum among the posters on DBR.

I felt the exact same way when I saw that the boards were taken down last night. Despite the typical high-level quality of posts we see on DBR, I was afraid that after a game like that, even DBR posters might have resorted to merely complaining about the outcome and heckling the Lehigh team. I'm proud that we were able to maintain our composure in the face of adversity.


On to the game. I personally thought Andre Dawkins should have gotten more shots in the second half, he has always been our best three shooter and we definitely needed a few for a comeback. It didn't seem like the other guys, especially the big men, were looking to kick it out to Dre. By my eye he seemed to be loosely guarded most of the night. The other key, in my opinion, was that Thornton was playing too unselfishly. He has a habit of deferring to his teammates, but is a more than capable slasher/scorer when hes looking for his own shot. We could have used his offense last night. Other than that, we just got beat by an excellent Lehigh team who I think could give Kentucky a run for their money. We should all be looking forward to next season. Go Duke!

If you look at the stats, Mason avereaged 7.4 field goal attempts per game, and last night he took 9 shots! I agree that he was trying to do to much by himself on offense, and he should have focused more on other aspects of his game, such as assisting (he had 0 assists). Mason also had 4 turnovers, which I think shows that we were trying to force things through our center too much. Although I agree that Andre is clearly our best 3 point shooter, I would have actually liked to see Thornton be the target of Mason's kick outs because he has been known to make big shots in clutch situations for us. I think Andre should have put the ball on the floor more and tried pull up for a mid-range shot or 2. His mid-range game has become highly dangerous, and he has shown hints of brilliance when driving to the hoop. I think next year, we will see Thornton develop into more of a shooter and see Andre develop his mid-range game much more. Although this is a bleak day to be a Duke fan, I think Tyler and Andre give us reasons to be very excited about next season.

sagegrouse
03-17-2012, 03:46 PM
I actually didn't see the game. My fiancee and I were on our way to a bar/restaurant to watch a DJ we were thinking of booking for our wedding (and in my case, to watch the second half of the game), when a guy made a left turn directly into us at an intersection for a head-on collision. The other guy was at fault and there was nothing I could have done. Luckily, we were both relatively okay -- I was somehow completely unblemished, and she had some bumps and bruises but nothing more. While I was standing outside giving the police report, my phone was blowing up with texts and tweets about the Duke game, and I honestly couldn't care less. I just kept seeing the other car coming at us, and I was relieved my fiancee was okay. (Me? I'm indestructible.)

I know it's a cliche, but something like that really puts a Duke loss, even one in the first round to a Patriot League school, in perspective. What are you going to do? They just didn't have it, especially without Kelly, whom I have a whole new respect for. But there are SO many more important things in life to think about and worry about. You know? Duke's a big part of our lives, but it's not even close to all there is.

Glad the damage is only to the vehicles. But, Starter, do you think there is some bad karma at work here?

sage

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 03:47 PM
Many are saying that the loss of Kelly was the reason for the losses to FL State and Lehigh. Yet Syracuse is playing without Melo and has advanced to the Sweet 16. Duke was aware of Kelly's injury three days before the ACC tourney. Syracuse just found out about Melo on Monday of this week. Syracuse coaching staff was able to adjust and win. Duke coaching staff was unable to prepare team for game against a 15 seed.

When Duke wins big, K gets credit as a coaching genius. The Lehigh loss gets blamed on the players. K is a great coach and a classy guy, but sometimes he has a bad day. I think he was out-coached last night.

subzero02
03-17-2012, 03:50 PM
I felt the exact same way when I saw that the boards were taken down last night. Despite the typical high-level quality of posts we see on DBR, I was afraid that after a game like that, even DBR posters might have resorted to merely complaining about the outcome and heckling the Lehigh team. I'm proud that we were able to maintain our composure in the face of adversity.



If you look at the stats, Mason avereaged 7.4 field goal attempts per game, and last night he took 9 shots! I agree that he was trying to do to much by himself on offense, and he should have focused more on other aspects of his game, such as assisting (he had 0 assists). Mason also had 4 turnovers, which I think shows that we were trying to force things through our center too much. Although I agree that Andre is clearly our best 3 point shooter, I would have actually liked to see Thornton be the target of Mason's kick outs because he has been known to make big shots in clutch situations for us. I think Andre should have put the ball on the floor more and tried pull up for a mid-range shot or 2. His mid-range game has become highly dangerous, and he has shown hints of brilliance when driving to the hoop. I think next year, we will see Thornton develop into more of a shooter and see Andre develop his mid-range game much more. Although this is a bleak day to be a Duke fan, I think Tyler and Andre give us reasons to be very excited about next season.

Anyone who takes 9 shots and makes all 9 of them needs to shoot more, not less.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:00 PM
I'm just really sorry it's over for these guys. The better team won today. Duke had a great season and unfortunately will likely be remembered more for the final game.

Please explain to me how this was a,"great ", season. Was it a good season, probably if you say we won 27 games. It was a great season up right after Coach K reached his milestone against MSU. After that No, No.

We only beat 2 good teams after that, UNC and FSU. We lost 3 homes to ACC opponents. Did UNC lose any home games..I do not know the answer ?

No I am sorry to disagree with you Duke did not have a great season. When you do not win the conference championship, do not win the ACC tournament and lose to a 15 seed, I would say that Duke had a disappointing season.

proelitedota
03-17-2012, 04:02 PM
Many are saying that the loss of Kelly was the reason for the losses to FL State and Lehigh. Yet Syracuse is playing without Melo and has advanced to the Sweet 16. Duke was aware of Kelly's injury three days before the ACC tourney. Syracuse just found out about Melo on Monday of this week. Syracuse coaching staff was able to adjust and win. Duke coaching staff was unable to prepare team for game against a 15 seed.

When Duke wins big, K gets credit as a coaching genius. The Lehigh loss gets blamed on the players. K is a great coach and a classy guy, but sometimes he has a bad day. I think he was out-coached last night.

If you look at Cuse's roster, their bench is one of the best in the nation. Fab Melo isn't their 3rd best player either.

uh_no
03-17-2012, 04:02 PM
From Sportsillustratedcnn.com:


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/ted_keith/03/17/lehigh.upsets.duke/index.html

Lehigh seemed well prepared and had a lot of time to get ready to play Duke.
Still, we could have won if only we hit a few more 3's.

wow...they were stealing our signs? that's a baseball thing....but interesting to see someone doing it in bball

Troublemaker
03-17-2012, 04:06 PM
Many are saying that the loss of Kelly was the reason for the losses to FL State and Lehigh. Yet Syracuse is playing without Melo and has advanced to the Sweet 16. Duke was aware of Kelly's injury three days before the ACC tourney. Syracuse just found out about Melo on Monday of this week. Syracuse coaching staff was able to adjust and win. Duke coaching staff was unable to prepare team for game against a 15 seed.

When Duke wins big, K gets credit as a coaching genius. The Lehigh loss gets blamed on the players. K is a great coach and a classy guy, but sometimes he has a bad day. I think he was out-coached last night.

That's a very interesting (poor?) example to use, considering Syracuse almost lost to a 16 seed and many folks felt refereeing aided their win against Asheville.

Melo's a good player but also averaged just 8 points and 6 rebounds. I think that Kelly is more important to Duke than Melo is to Cuse.

Furniture
03-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Go to "goduke.com." Click on "Duke Falls in NCAA Tourney." When picture of the game appears above, click on picture to go article. In the right box on the article page is a video notation and the headline, "Press Conference: Coach K, Miles and Mason Plumlee." Or, go to Men's Basketball on contents on left of front page and go to the story.

sage

Thank you Sage!!

zack2014
03-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Did UNC lose any home games..I do not know the answer ?

I guess you don't remember that great comeback in Chapel Hill

sjl14
03-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Anyone who takes 9 shots and makes all 9 of them needs to shoot more, not less.

I don't think kville33 was implying that Mason shooting 9-9 was bad (obviously), but that maybe he was being asked to do to much offensively. Mason has never been a volume shooter, we probably shouldn't expect him to be. Anyways, him shooting 9-9 says nothing of his future field goal success...

jv001
03-17-2012, 04:10 PM
I don't think kville33 was implying that Mason shooting 9-9 was bad (obviously), but that maybe he was being asked to do to much offensively. Mason has never been a volume shooter, we probably shouldn't expect him to be. Anyways, him shooting 9-9 says nothing of his future field goal success...

Oh, I thought it was shoot until you miss,:cool:

Starter
03-17-2012, 04:10 PM
Glad the damage is only to the vehicles. But, Starter, do you think there is some bad karma at work here?

sage

Thanks man. I'll miss the royal blue Mustang, but it took the hit like a champ and it's a small price to pay.

As for karma (?)... I ran a UNC fan off the road once. But he totally deserved it.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:11 PM
First of all, I commend the moderators for taking proactive measures against the inevitable venting and nonconstructive criticism after the game last night. As a fan of course I am disappointed in the outcome, but as always the team demonstrated a level of class that is rare in basketball today. I'm proud to see that same decorum among the posters on DBR.

On to the game. I personally thought Andre Dawkins should have gotten more shots in the second half, he has always been our best three shooter and we definitely needed a few for a comeback. It didn't seem like the other guys, especially the big men, were looking to kick it out to Dre. By my eye he seemed to be loosely guarded most of the night. The other key, in my opinion, was that Thornton was playing too unselfishly. He has a habit of deferring to his teammates, but is a more than capable slasher/scorer when hes looking for his own shot. We could have used his offense last night. Other than that, we just got beat by an excellent Lehigh team who I think could give Kentucky a run for their money. We should all be looking forward to next season. Go Duke!

Sorry to respectfully disagree with you about the moderators taking the steps that they did. Yes I understand that this is a Duke Basketball forum but for God's sake it was a loss of a basketball game in my estimation and previous posting, by a very overrated team. Taking time for personal reflection...a little over reaction. We are not talking about a National catastrophe here. Duke's loss, while it bothers some or many, does not change anyone's life.

There were people who wanted to intelligently discuss the game right after it was over when our memory was very fresh. If there were posts that were against the moderator's rules they could have deleted them.

Being sad over a basketball game no matter how rabid a fan you are is a little too much.

This team was never a top 8 team and getting a number 2 seed was wrong. If we were a number 2 seed than FSU should have been a number 1 !!

Kewlswim
03-17-2012, 04:12 PM
Hi,

I know that selfishly I would like both Mason and Austin to stay at Duke, but does anyone feel either player is ready for the NBA? Also, can someone please give me the status of Cook's knee? Was he at 100% by the end of the season? Did Shabazz (not sure if I spelled that right) give a date when he will decide where he will attend school?

I am super sad and not sure what else to say.

GO DUKE!

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:12 PM
I guess you don't remember that great comeback in Chapel Hill

Whoops...Forgot Sorry...Did they lose any other ?

Starter
03-17-2012, 04:13 PM
I'd suggest, by the way, that anyone who can't go a single night without venting on a forum about a basketball team they purportedly love needs to check his/her priorities. Just MHO.

jv001
03-17-2012, 04:15 PM
Sorry to respectfully disagree with you about the moderators taking the steps that they did. Yes I understand that this is a Duke Basketball forum but for God's sake it was a loss of a basketball game in my estimation and previous posting, by a very overrated team. Taking time for personal reflection...a little over reaction. We are not talking about a National catastrophe here. Duke's loss, while it bothers some or many, does not change anyone's life.

There were people who wanted to intelligently discuss the game right after it was over when our memory was very fresh. If there were posts that were against the moderator's rules they could have deleted them.

Being sad over a basketball game no matter how rabid a fan you are is a little too much.

This team was never a top 8 team and getting a number 2 seed was wrong. If we were a number 2 seed than FSU should have been a number 1 !!

Most posters that come on the thread right after a Duke loss are probably not like you. They make comments directed at individual players. Comments that are darn right vile. So, I agree with the shut down. GoDuke!

zack2014
03-17-2012, 04:15 PM
Whoops...Forgot Sorry...Did they lose any other ?

Im pretty sure that was their only loss.

dukelifer
03-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Please explain to me how this was a,"great ", season. Was it a good season, probably if you say we won 27 games. It was a great season up right after Coach K reached his milestone against MSU. After that No, No.

We only beat 2 good teams after that, UNC and FSU. We lost 3 homes to ACC opponents. Did UNC lose any home games..I do not know the answer ?

No I am sorry to disagree with you Duke did not have a great season. When you do not win the conference championship, do not win the ACC tournament and lose to a 15 seed, I would say that Duke had a disappointing season.

UNC lost to Duke at Home- one of the "good" teams Duke beat. UNC also lost to FSU twice - a team Duke split with. UNC did not win the ACC conference championship- they won the regular season. This was a good regular season for Duke- no question. It was a bad post season - by Duke standards- but chemistry busting injuries are part of the game. There are two seasons in college basketball. It is unfortunate that people need to lump them together to define a team or make a point.

Kdogg
03-17-2012, 04:19 PM
Many are saying that the loss of Kelly was the reason for the losses to FL State and Lehigh. Yet Syracuse is playing without Melo and has advanced to the Sweet 16. Duke was aware of Kelly's injury three days before the ACC tourney. Syracuse just found out about Melo on Monday of this week. Syracuse coaching staff was able to adjust and win. Duke coaching staff was unable to prepare team for game against a 15 seed.


The comparison is not even close.
1) Syracuse had already played games without Melo (and lost the first) during the season. They were already prepared for his absence.
2) Syracuse's second unit would be ranked in the top 25. They have really depth.
3) Monday is three days before Thursday (when Cuse played).

A sad end to an uneven season. Thanks Miles for four memorable seasons.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:19 PM
While it might sound sacreligious to even ask, but I will anyway. We had about 1 week to prepare for Lehigh ad everyone knew or should have known what a terrific player McComber, ( probably spelling it wrong) is. Wasn't there a defensive scheme to set up to try and negate him. Obviously I am not a coach and my knowledge of coaching basketball is extremely limited, but if one player on the opposing team is so dominant, then you have to make some defensive adjustments to try and limit him.

Secondly, Duke lived and died with the 3 and last night it was not working, so why not at half time come up with another offensive scheme?

For that matter, in the week of preparation shouldn't the coaches have had an alternate if the 3s were not working?

dukelifer
03-17-2012, 04:20 PM
Whoops...Forgot Sorry...Did they lose any other ?

How do you forget the most memorable moment of Duke's season-- strange.

dyedwab
03-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Coach mentioned this in his post-game comments. Something to the effect of: "...they came out bold and played bold. we came out tentative and played that way."

Couldn't agree more.

Honestly, the coaches said some version of that in post-game or halftime interviews in an awful lot of games this year. It suggests something about the teams mental approach that is separate from it skill and talent or lack thereof

heyman25
03-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Really DBR? The site had to go down for that long just at the time when people wanted to get online and reflect? I realize that people get a bit out of sorts when we lose like this (esp late on a Friday nite). But it seems to me you denied your community just when we kinda wanted you most. Just food for thought for next time (hopefully there won't be too many "next times" like this one!).
Belated Happy Birthday Dean Smith!
That is what DBR likes to post.

weezie
03-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Well, at least Elmore won't have us to kick around any more.
I'll bet he's bummed that 3/4 of his schtick is over for this season.

jv001
03-17-2012, 04:23 PM
While it might sound sacreligious to even ask, but I will anyway. We had about 1 week to prepare for Lehigh ad everyone knew or should have known what a terrific player McComber, ( probably spelling it wrong) is. Wasn't there a defensive scheme to set up to try and negate him. Obviously I am not a coach and my knowledge of coaching basketball is extremely limited, but if one player on the opposing team is so dominant, then you have to make some defensive adjustments to try and limit him.

Secondly, Duke lived and died with the 3 and last night it was not working, so why not at half time come up with another offensive scheme?

For that matter, in the week of preparation shouldn't the coaches have had an alternate if the 3s were not working?

If I'm not mistaken Coach K took the blame in his post game interview for the offense being being bad last night. GoDuke!

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:24 PM
UNC lost to Duke at Home- one of the "good" teams Duke beat. UNC also lost to FSU twice - a team Duke split with. UNC did not win the ACC conference championship- they won the regular season. This was a good regular season for Duke- no question. It was a bad post season - by Duke standards- but chemistry busting injuries are part of the game. There are two seasons in college basketball. It is unfortunate that people need to lump them together to define a team or make a point.

Unfortuneately that is the way it is when you have a tournament like the NCAA. If you are suppose to be a top 8 team than you are not suppose to lose to a 15 seed period, and that is why along with not winning the regular season or the ACC tournament, I feel that Duke had a disappointing season. It is only my opinion which is as valid or invalid as anyone elese on this board.

If you feel that Duke had a ," great", season then I respect you for that as I hope that you respect me for saying that Duke had a disappointing one.

uh_no
03-17-2012, 04:25 PM
While it might sound sacreligious to even ask, but I will anyway. We had about 1 week to prepare for Lehigh ad everyone knew or should have known what a terrific player McComber, ( probably spelling it wrong) is. Wasn't there a defensive scheme to set up to try and negate him. Obviously I am not a coach and my knowledge of coaching basketball is extremely limited, but if one player on the opposing team is so dominant, then you have to make some defensive adjustments to try and limit him.

Secondly, Duke lived and died with the 3 and last night it was not working, so why not at half time come up with another offensive scheme?

For that matter, in the week of preparation shouldn't the coaches have had an alternate if the 3s were not working?

Just because one has a scheme to beat a team does not mean the players will be able to do it....and ultimately we weren't able to stop players from driving all season, and they weren't going to magically start being able to do it against CJ.

ChicagoHeel
03-17-2012, 04:26 PM
This season will be remembered for two things- the Rivers' shot and the loss to a 15 seed. The good news is that the pain from yesterday's loss will fade and you will see replays of the Rivers' shot a couple times a year for the rest of your life.

WHile the end had to be tough, from the perspective of the season, it's hard to be too disappointed. If you lose two first-team ACC players and the #1 player in the NBA draft, you are rebuilding, I don't care who you have coming in. And as rebuilding years go, this one wasn't too shabby. Is there a team in the country that wouldn't settle for a "down year" like the season that just ended?

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:27 PM
If I'm not mistaken Coach K took the blame in his post game interview for the offense being being bad last night. GoDuke!

He is one of the classiest coaches around but I thought that in having one week to prepare and knowing what an outstanding player he was going to oppose he might have devised something better to stop him. Had he we would be talking about Duke-Xavier now

jv001
03-17-2012, 04:27 PM
Unfortuneately that is the way it is when you have a tournament like the NCAA. If you are suppose to be a top 8 team than you are not suppose to lose to a 15 seed period, and that is why along with not winning the regular season or the ACC tournament, I feel that Duke had a disappointing season. It is only my opinion which is as valid or invalid as anyone elese on this board.

If you feel that Duke had a ," great", season then I respect you for that as I hope that you respect me for saying that Duke had a disappointing one.

But I love Dukebasketball and will be on DBR and Blue Devil Nation waiting on that tidbit of news regarding Duke basketball recruiting. Matter of fact I'll be following Duke Football right along with recruiting news. GoDuke!

subzero02
03-17-2012, 04:28 PM
I don't think kville33 was implying that Mason shooting 9-9 was bad (obviously), but that maybe he was being asked to do to much offensively. Mason has never been a volume shooter, we probably shouldn't expect him to be. Anyways, him shooting 9-9 says nothing of his future field goal success...

Yes it does. It indicates that the shooter is either hot or is being guarded ineffectively(3 fairly wide open dunks in the first 3 minutes 15 seconds of play)... Both of which bode well for future field goal success within a game.

jv001
03-17-2012, 04:30 PM
He is one of the classiest coaches around but I thought that in having one week to prepare and knowing what an outstanding player he was going to oppose he might have devised something better to stop him. Had he we would be talking about Duke-Xavier now

Coach K is going to play man to man and that's not going to change. So I guess the only change he could have made was the way we hege on picks. We just don't have the guy to stop dribble penetration. Especially a player like McCollum. When we use Austin as thatguy he seems to get worn down. GoDuke!

dukelifer
03-17-2012, 04:30 PM
While it might sound sacreligious to even ask, but I will anyway. We had about 1 week to prepare for Lehigh ad everyone knew or should have known what a terrific player McComber, ( probably spelling it wrong) is. Wasn't there a defensive scheme to set up to try and negate him. Obviously I am not a coach and my knowledge of coaching basketball is extremely limited, but if one player on the opposing team is so dominant, then you have to make some defensive adjustments to try and limit him.

Secondly, Duke lived and died with the 3 and last night it was not working, so why not at half time come up with another offensive scheme?

For that matter, in the week of preparation shouldn't the coaches have had an alternate if the 3s were not working?

Whenever a team loses- a coach takes full responsibility. I am sure this loss is killing K and it will motivate him for next season. This team had some fundamental flaws but they had managed to find a fragile chemistry that worked during the season. We now saw how important Kelly was this year for Duke. The guy is bad matchup for most teams and stretches the D. Without him, Duke plays different. They did not have enough games without him to really prepare. Lehigh is a very solid team and Duke did not handle the moment well- a sign of a team that lacks confidence because it is not whole. K made some mistakes yesterday as did his players. Time to regroup and start fresh next year. They will get better over the summer and will be motivated and the addition of some new players- a few who already know the system. All I know is that Duke will again play hard next year and will win 20+ games and make the tourney. The hope is they are hot at the end of the year and not limping into the post season.

OldSchool
03-17-2012, 04:32 PM
He's not even the best player in his region.

McCollum wasn't even that great last night.

From the field he was 9 for 24. Not only did he not shoot 50% from the field, he didn't even shoot 40% from the field.

"But he must have been lighting it up from outside, right?"

Um, no, he was under 30% from 3-pt land.

"At least he must have been JJ-like from the FT stripe, right?"

Not quite. Well under 70% from the line.

So, getting him to 30 points took 24 field goal attempts and 16 free throw attempts. Not exactly a model of offensive efficiency.

Which is not to say McCollum did not play the best of the players on the floor in that game. But it's relative to how poorly we played.

"If Lehigh showed what a fantastic team they are by beating Duke, then surely they are favored by a healthy margin over Xavier, right?"

Um, no, the line has Xavier by 3.5 points.

It's right for Coach K and our players to praise McCollum and the Lehigh team. That's what true sportsmen and people with integrity and class do.

But let's keep it in perspective, folks.

Overall, we had a very successful season. We beat a bunch of top teams. We were undefeated ON THE ROAD in the ACC (wow!). We put ourselves in a position to win the ACC regular season championship on the last game at home but came up short. And had Ryan not gone down, we might well have cut down the nets at the ACCT.

And congratulations to Miles (a National Champion) for his play and effort and always representing Duke to the highest standards.

Last night's game was simply not our finest hour, in fact our worst game in a big game in years.

Thank goodness Missouri also lost so the media vultures have something else to feed on as well!

dukelifer
03-17-2012, 04:33 PM
Unfortuneately that is the way it is when you have a tournament like the NCAA. If you are suppose to be a top 8 team than you are not suppose to lose to a 15 seed period, and that is why along with not winning the regular season or the ACC tournament, I feel that Duke had a disappointing season. It is only my opinion which is as valid or invalid as anyone elese on this board.

If you feel that Duke had a ," great", season then I respect you for that as I hope that you respect me for saying that Duke had a disappointing one.

I did not think they had a great regular season- just a good one. Losing three starters and a ton of leadership is hard on any team- but this team did okay and made things interesting for UNC. They had a very bad post season- cannot argue with that.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:35 PM
This season will be remembered for two things- the Rivers' shot and the loss to a 15 seed. The good news is that the pain from yesterday's loss will fade and you will see replays of the Rivers' shot a couple times a year for the rest of your life.

WHile the end had to be tough, from the perspective of the season, it's hard to be too disappointed. If you lose two first-team ACC players and the #1 player in the NBA draft, you are rebuilding, I don't care who you have coming in. And as rebuilding years go, this one wasn't too shabby. Is there a team in the country that wouldn't settle for a "down year" like the season that just ended?

Probably right now Missouri.

If you think that this year was a rebuilding year, what about next year? If Rivers and or Mason leave then next year will be more of a rebuilding year than this year.

Do you really think thaTMarshall Plumlee, Alex Murphy and Suliaman ,( spelling) are going to turn this team into a championship team? We do not have quich guards and teams that do, burn us. How is that going to improve next year?

sjl14
03-17-2012, 04:35 PM
Yes it does. It indicates that the shooter is either hot or is being guarded ineffectively(3 fairly wide open dunks in the first 3 minutes 15 seconds of play)... Both of which bode well for future field goal success within a game.

Have you even watched last night's press conference? Mason himself admitted that he felt that he didn't need more opportunities. We needed to get scores as a team, which we obviously struggled to do.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 04:37 PM
I did not think they had a great regular season- just a good one. Losing three starters and a ton of leadership is hard on any team- but this team did okay and made things interesting for UNC. They had a very bad post season- cannot argue with that.

I agree , we had a good regular season, but unfortuneately you are based on what you do in the post season. If Kentucky does not make the Final 4 ,I would say that they had a disappointing season.

uh_no
03-17-2012, 04:37 PM
McCollum wasn't even that great last night.

From the field he was 9 for 24. Not only did he not shoot 50% from the field, he didn't even shoot 40% from the field.

"But he must have been lighting it up from outside, right?"

Um, no, he was under 30% from 3-pt land.

"At least he must have been JJ-like from the FT stripe, right?"

Not quite. Well under 70% from the line.

So, getting him to 30 points took 24 field goal attempts and 16 free throw attempts. Not exactly a model of offensive efficiency.


he also had 6 rebounds and 6 assists. He was going to miss lots of shots because our huge interior didn't need to do much work defending theirs....so they could hedge a lot to help the drive....with better players around him, he doesn't need to take that many shots and gets a bit more room to drive.

Acymetric
03-17-2012, 04:43 PM
Well prepared Lehigh may have known Duke offensive set signals
From Sportsillustratedcnn.com:

Lehigh had all the answers. If it seemed as if the Mountain Hawks knew what Duke was going to run, it's because they did. At several points Duke would flash its signals for an offensive set only to have Head Coach Reed and his assistants spring to their feet, flashing the same signals and calling out the plays to their defense.

Asked later if they knew what was coming, Reed grinned and said, "We pride ourselves on being one of the nation's most prepared teams, and this was one of the longest preps we've ever had."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...uke/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/ted_keith/03/17/lehigh.upsets.duke/index.html)

Lehigh seemed well prepared and had a lot of time to get ready to play Duke.
Still, we could have won if only we hit a few more 3's.






I've wondered about this before. Seems like we throw up a hand signal for the play we're going to run almost every possession...do other teams do this as often? If we aren't changing the play signals it should get pretty obvious to anyone who watches some tape what we're going to do.

ncexnyc
03-17-2012, 04:48 PM
While it might sound sacreligious to even ask, but I will anyway. We had about 1 week to prepare for Lehigh ad everyone knew or should have known what a terrific player McComber, ( probably spelling it wrong) is. Wasn't there a defensive scheme to set up to try and negate him. Obviously I am not a coach and my knowledge of coaching basketball is extremely limited, but if one player on the opposing team is so dominant, then you have to make some defensive adjustments to try and limit him.

Secondly, Duke lived and died with the 3 and last night it was not working, so why not at half time come up with another offensive scheme?

For that matter, in the week of preparation shouldn't the coaches have had an alternate if the 3s were not working?

All fair questions.

As we've discussed all season long a guard like C.J. is poison to us. This kid isn't a fluke, one of the writers on SI did an article breaking down each region and the players to watch, he made specific mention of C.J.

I'm not sure there's much you can do to change your offensive gameplan, especially once you're in the middle of the game if your pieces are limited, which for this team they were.

I fully agree with point #3, which brings me to the Kelly injury and how badly it was diagnosed. We went from, "day to day", to something which seems a lot more serious. Was this some of the, "gamesmanship", which we discussed last year in regards to Irving's injury? I do think we could have made better use of Hairston. One of Dre's best plays last night was the pick and roll he ran with Josh. That shot was there all night, but we only used it once, granted Josh had several other shots and didn't convert, but they were all clean looks and didn't require the guards to pound the ball looking for difficult shots. Dre actually seemed to get huge lift when he made that pass.

heyman25
03-17-2012, 04:49 PM
This was a down year in the ACC.The winning record does not mean we played great basketball. This team lost 3 games in Cameron. Their offense was simply awful for about the last 3 weeks. Ryan Kelly's absence does not give these guys any excuse. Find some guards that have some foot speed. I know there is is one in the Norfolk area named Cat Barber. Cook may get better, but Duke has simply not recruited that well. Yes we got Irving and Rivers,but you need to fill positions.Coack K's argument about he recruits players reminds me we were undersized at the WF position all season. Preparation for post season play last 2 years has been the Coaching Staff's fault. Arizona buzzsawed Duke in the sweet 16. I think the program needs to look in the mirror and start working harder. At the moment the Duke Brand is not looking so great.

OldSchool
03-17-2012, 04:53 PM
Does Coach K have to take any responsibility?

The players were very gracious in blaming themselves, but personally I was frustrated with the choices made by the coaching staff pertaining to our offensive scheme over the season as a whole. It was not Lehigh in particular, although the chickens came home to roost with respect to our offensive scheme last night. I am sure the coaches did their usual excellent job in scouting Lehigh and running practices this past week.

And I am not saying Coach K is not the best coach in the land or that I would trade him for anyone else. But I thought we left some potential on the table this year, more so than any year in recent memory.

Dukehky
03-17-2012, 05:01 PM
But I thought we left some potential on the table this year, more so than any year in recent memory.

Really? The key word for this squad is "over-achieved." Outside of Rivers there is very little effective athleticism at the guard spots, and at those same spots they couldn't pass, making the post players less able to be effective. The talent level on this team should realistically have ceilinged out at a #2 seed, which we got, but when the players aren't making shots and refuse to make good passes, there's nothing in the scheme that can change that.


I really hope State wins this freaking tournament. I love that team.

subzero02
03-17-2012, 05:02 PM
Have you even watched last night's press conference? Mason himself admitted that he felt that he didn't need more opportunities. We needed to get scores as a team, which we obviously struggled to do.

Our inability to provide Mason with timely and well positioned entry passes and his ineffectiveness in passing out of double teams prevented us from fully utilizing our biggest advantage (especially with an awol 3 ball). He was slow in recognizing the double team and had the ball stolen from him on at least one occassion when he brought the ball below his waist. He also had great post position a few times and did not receive a pass because our guards failed to see him or failed to create a proper passing angle. As far as his press conference comments are concerned, I can see why he'd be reluctant to indirectly criticize his teammates and the strategy implemented by the coaching staff.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-17-2012, 05:07 PM
This season will be remembered for two things- the Rivers' shot and the loss to a 15 seed. The good news is that the pain from yesterday's loss will fade and you will see replays of the Rivers' shot...

I will remember this loss as the game that finally buried "The Show" in the Duke/UNC rivalry.

My Duke friends will never again be able to bring up the ghost of Harold Arceneaux and the Weber St. loss in the '99 tourney without me replying "Lehigh" and having the last word on tourney upsets...(for a while, at least).

UNC was a 3 seed and Weber St. was a 14 seed in that loss, and we know Lehigh was a 15 seed and Duke was a 2 in this one, so...

Duke fans got about 12 good years out of that dig, count your blessings and take your medicine Dukie's for this one.....:)

gumbomoop
03-17-2012, 05:08 PM
I believe Thornton made the best comment after the game when he said we will be at the gym tomorrow practicing.

I like Tyler's spirit, mostly [see below for a minor qualm]. And I like CDu's suggestions re things our guys should practice before next season.


Hopefully the guys that stick around learn from the late season losses. Dawkins needs to really work on his ballhandling, defense, and focus. Curry needs to get more confident with the ball in his hands so that he can attack off the dribble more often. Cook needs to get healthy, improve his defense and shooting. Mason (if he comes back) needs to work on his post moves and getting more comfortable/confident around the basket so that his athleticism can take over. Rivers (if he comes back) needs to improve his decision making, his ability to play off the ball (he had pretty much one play - dribble back to halfcourt, call for a high screen and try to drive), his court vision and passing skills, and his free throw shooting. And hopefully Gbinije, Murphy, and Marshall just continue to improve in all aspects so that maybe they can add some diversity to the lineup.

For the most part, my thoughts spring from the very thing that most interested me - pretty close to an obsession, actually - all season long, and about which I posted intermittently: K's early-season reference to the staff's emphasis on [I]“attention to detail.” From the beginning I have associated this with, in large part, basketball fundamentals. But several of our guys didn't sufficiently correct their respective detail-deficiencies: Andre’s handle, Miles’ and Mason’s footwork and rhythm dribbles/bringing ball down, perimeter players’ inability to execute basic entry pass, moving screens, lack of block-out, poor court-sense-awareness, foolish fouls by several players, even late-season.

I will use the foolish fouls as a segue to a tangential concern, going forward, about Tyler and Quinn, both of whom have shown plenty of promise, and who [even if Seth plays some PG next year] are K's 2-headed PG for the next 2 years. I didn't much care for Tyler's physical-woofing foul on McCollum with 1:06 left in the game. I understand that Tyler was trying to play smart by keeping the ball out of McCollum's hands; but with the 35-second clock winding down, what Duke needed was a stop without fouling, and Tyler pretty obviously was courting the ref's whistle. He got it.

Going forward, I hope Tyler will be a leader and absolutely fierce defender, but not a woofer. [Want fierce on-ball? Watch baby-faced Aaron Craft.] On woofing, ditto for Quinn, whose chest-out Duke-shirt-woofing a few seconds after Austin's wonderful shot over Zeller was dumb. I hope Quinn will become a great PG, not an embarrassing woofer.

As for my hopes about player improvement, I have one thought that I fear might be seen as some combination of radical, radically harsh, and/or radically foolish. I intend this as constructive criticism; I know you'll let me know if I'm way off base here.....

If either Austin or Mason returns, and definitely if both return, I hope Andre will redshirt. My recommendation does not depend on Shabazz coming, or anyone else beyond Rasheed. Andre arrived at Duke a year early, and after a real contribution to the 2010 NC, he has not developed much beyond a streaky 3-bomber. [I]It's in his interest - if it would not substantially hurt the team in 2012-'13 - to work a long, long time on his handle. Cross-over, low dribble, attack the basket, pull-up [going left and right].

It's in his interest, further, to sit on the bench for a year and really watch the game with a specific commitment to noticing dozens of little moments that constitute smart play, good defense, spacing on the floor, movement without the ball, entry passes - dozens of things. It's in his interest to talk about what he sees with coaches, for a year. CDu mentions Andre's focus. Andre's understanding of the game is underdeveloped, passive, way behind what it should be for a rising senior who plans to win a NC his senior year and go on to play pro somewhere. Andre needs time and "attention to detail" to become a really good player, as opposed to merely a sweet shooter. He needs a makeup year, even a "selfish" year, to replace the "selfless" year when he matriculated early to help Duke when it desperately needed wing help. What Duke needs now is for Andre to reach his potential; I am skeptical that he can come anywhere near reaching it over the summer.

Scenario 1 -- Austin returns, Andre redshirts. 10 players potentially in rotation, gradually reduces to 8-9-man rotation. Several good 3-bombers here.
- PG - Tyler, Quinn [Seth]
- Wings - Austin, Seth, Michael, Rasheed
- Bigs - Ryan, Marshall, Josh, Alex

Scenario 2 -- Mason returns, Andre redshirts. 10 players, gradually 8-9-man rotation. Fewer 3-bombers, but hardly a weakness; a bit more O-variety.
- PG - Tyler, Quinn [Seth]
- Wings - Seth, Alex, Michael, Rasheed
- Bigs - Mason, Ryan, Marshall, Josh, [Alex]

Scenario 3 -- Mason and Austin both return, Andre redshirts. 11 players, gradually 8-9-man rotation. Preseason top-3, even without Andre.
- PG - Tyler, Quinn [Seth]
- Wings - Austin, Seth, Alex, Michael, Rasheed
- Bigs - Mason, Ryan, Marshall, Josh [Alex]

miramar
03-17-2012, 05:09 PM
I have only gone through about half the posts, so I apologize if these two stats are already posted:

Points off turnovers-LU 13,DU 6.
Fast break points-LU 14,DU 2.

As noted throughout the season, we're not that athletic, especially against quick guards, but that's been happening for years. This year we couldn't make up for that weakness, especially at the end of the season.

Just wait til next year. Go Duke and thank you Miles!

Starter
03-17-2012, 05:10 PM
I will remember this loss as the game that finally buried "The Show" in the Duke/UNC rivalry.

My Duke friends will never again be able to bring up the ghost of Harold Arceneaux and the Weber St. loss in the '99 tourney without me replying "Lehigh" and having the last word on tourney upsets...(for a while, at least).

UNC was a 3 seed and Weber St. was a 14 seed in that loss, and we know Lehigh was a 15 seed and Duke was a 2 in this one, so...

Duke fans got about 12 good years out of that dig, count your blessings and take your medicine Dukie's for this one.....:)

Hey man. That's great.

In all seriousness, I'd forgotten about Weber State until you brought it up. That game was pretty crazy, huh?

Wheat/"/"/"
03-17-2012, 05:18 PM
Hey man. That's great.

In all seriousness, I'd forgotten about Weber State until you brought it up. That game was pretty crazy, huh?

Glad your accident was relatively minor... And yes that was one crazy game.

The Gordog
03-17-2012, 05:19 PM
I actually didn't see the game. My fiancee and I were on our way to a bar/restaurant to watch a DJ we were thinking of booking for our wedding (and in my case, to watch the second half of the game), when a guy made a left turn directly into us at an intersection for a head-on collision. The other guy was at fault and there was nothing I could have done. Luckily, we were both relatively okay -- I was somehow completely unblemished, and she had some bumps and bruises but nothing more. While I was standing outside giving the police report, my phone was blowing up with texts and tweets about the Duke game, and I honestly couldn't care less. I just kept seeing the other car coming at us, and I was relieved my fiancee was okay. (Me? I'm indestructible.)

I know it's a cliche, but something like that really puts a Duke loss, even one in the first round to a Patriot League school, in perspective. What are you going to do? They just didn't have it, especially without Kelly, whom I have a whole new respect for. But there are SO many more important things in life to think about and worry about. You know? Duke's a big part of our lives, but it's not even close to all there is.
Thank you for sharing this story. This is what I was looking for when the boards were sadly closed last night. Oh well so much for a community being a group that is there for you when you need them.

OldSchool
03-17-2012, 05:23 PM
Really? The key word for this squad is "over-achieved." Outside of Rivers there is very little effective athleticism at the guard spots, and at those same spots they couldn't pass, making the post players less able to be effective. The talent level on this team should realistically have ceilinged out at a #2 seed.

I think we have a LOT of talent and plenty of athleticism on this team. I've waited years for a Duke team with this kind of athleticism and talent and experience at the 4/5 positions (Miles, Mason, Ryan).

Seth is a fantastic offensive weapon. We have one of the deadliest 3-pt shooters in the nation in Dre (who is very athletic even if he doesn't seem to make much use of it).

IMO we had national championship caliber talent on this team. With guys like Austin and Seth and bigs who can run and jump out of the gym like Mason and Miles, the high pick and roll should have been the foundation of one of the most devastating Duke offenses in years.

But mystifyingly, we never developed it beyond merely a high dribble screen.

With three point shooters like Dre, Ryan, Austin and Seth, there is almost no excuse for taking a contested three. Yet we often ended up shooting contested threes.

With our mobile bigs, we should have feasted much more on layups and dunks using back screens, and gotten much more kick-out open threes.

The telling statistic is how pitiful we were in assists. We simply didn't develop our timing and passing skills. We had the talent to do so, IMO.


I really hope State wins this freaking tournament. I love that team.

Me too. Wouldn't it be fantastic if they meet the baby blues again with a better set of refs!

-jk
03-17-2012, 05:25 PM
I agree , we had a good regular season, but unfortuneately you are based on what you do in the post season. If Kentucky does not make the Final 4 ,I would say that they had a disappointing season.

If this is the only lens through which you evaluate a season, I suspect college hoops is the wrong sport for you. You might look to the nba - they have a post season format better suited for reflecting a season's accomplishments.

-jk

MaxAMillion
03-17-2012, 05:34 PM
I agree , we had a good regular season, but unfortuneately you are based on what you do in the post season. If Kentucky does not make the Final 4 ,I would say that they had a disappointing season.

Well then things are completely out of whack if a season is viewed as a disappointing one if you don't make the final four. UK has already had a terrific season in my opinion.

MaxAMillion
03-17-2012, 05:39 PM
This was a down year in the ACC.The winning record does not mean we played great basketball. This team lost 3 games in Cameron. Their offense was simply awful for about the last 3 weeks. Ryan Kelly's absence does not give these guys any excuse. Find some guards that have some foot speed. I know there is is one in the Norfolk area named Cat Barber. Cook may get better, but Duke has simply not recruited that well. Yes we got Irving and Rivers,but you need to fill positions.Coack K's argument about he recruits players reminds me we were undersized at the WF position all season. Preparation for post season play last 2 years has been the Coaching Staff's fault. Arizona buzzsawed Duke in the sweet 16. I think the program needs to look in the mirror and start working harder. At the moment the Duke Brand is not looking so great.

Start working harder? You think hard work is the problem? So win the team wins the ACC title, and makes the sweet sixteen, that only constitutes an ok season? I think anytime a team loses the number one pick in the draft, the ACC player of the year, and a forward who scored 2000 points and grabbed 1000 rebounds, you are looking at a rebuilding season.

I think the fans unrealistic expectations are what need some work.

kville33
03-17-2012, 05:39 PM
If this is the only lens through which you evaluate a season, I suspect college hoops is the wrong sport for you. You might look to the nba - they have a post season format better suited for reflecting a season's accomplishments.

-jk


I think it's safe to say that more than four teams have good seasons every year. Our team did, arguably, have a very good season, considering we were able to beat 2 teams that later became number one seeds (one of which was UNC in a timeless comeback) and 1 team that became a number 2 seed. Having one bad game in the first round of the tournament doesn't erase that.

cspan37421
03-17-2012, 05:44 PM
I don't know if it's glue or dope you guys are sniffing, but I want some.

sagegrouse

Excuse me, but you should re-read my post and see if I made any claim worthy of the insinuation you make.

It began with "IDK" - which means "I don't know" and I noted that 3 of our coaches were from a relatively down time in the K era. If you read my earlier post you'll note that I also said that I don't think we were out-coached in the Lehigh game. Collins, K, and Wojo were on the sideline for our 2010 title and I recognize that.

It appears you read far more into my post than was ever written or intended.

cspan37421
03-17-2012, 05:50 PM
wow...they were stealing our signs? that's a baseball thing....but interesting to see someone doing it in bball

That's really interesting. If that's within the rules (I assume it is), why don't we try some of that? Or at least try to negate it as an opponent's strategy?

This sort of reminds me of the end of John Smoltz's career in - was it Boston - where he got lit up, and later, after briefly signing with another team (Cardinals?) he was informed that he had been tipping his pitches.

sagegrouse
03-17-2012, 05:54 PM
That's really interesting. If that's within the rules (I assume it is), why don't we try some of that? Or at least try to negate it as an opponent's strategy?

This sort of reminds me of the end of John Smoltz's career in - was it Boston - where he got lit up, and later, after briefly signing with another team (Cardinals?) he was informed that he had been tipping his pitches.

Red Auerbach's last book, written with Feinstein, had a story about the old Celtics and their six or so basic plays. Everyone in the league knew them cold, so Red decided to go to a different system for calling the plays. The Celtics, it turns out, were totally confused by the new system, so they went back to the old system where the opponents knew what was coming -- and they still couldn't stop the Celtics.

sagegrouse

jennja01
03-17-2012, 06:04 PM
Can anyone provide a link to last nights post game presser? didnt get the chance to watch it. Thanks

Udaman
03-17-2012, 06:04 PM
Couldn't resist....I had to make a video about Hitler learning that Duke lost to Lehigh.

hoping that laughter can make us all feel a bit better.... pm me if you want the link to it. (Rated R due to language)

Udaman

cspan37421
03-17-2012, 06:07 PM
Red Auerbach's last book, written with Feinstein, had a story about the old Celtics and their six or so basic plays. Everyone in the league knew them cold, so Red decided to go to a different system for calling the plays. The Celtics, it turns out, were totally confused by the new system, so they went back to the old system where the opponents knew what was coming -- and they still couldn't stop the Celtics.

sagegrouse

It would (have been) wonderful if we were so good this year that it didn't matter if Lehigh or FSU etc. knew what was coming. But we weren't so great (see my post about our national rankings in assists, rebounds, FT%, steals, etc), so we needed every advantage we could get, including the ability to negate the opponent's strategies.

That said, I could see how we'd be confused if we constantly changed up our signals. At times we seemed confused enough already.

This tangent kind of reminds me of how our FB team constantly looked to the sideline for just about every play ... while it seemed like at least some of the better ones (Stanford?), the QB had the ability to call from the huddle.

BlueandWhite
03-17-2012, 06:10 PM
Too young to remember Goose Givens in Dallas, I conclude.

See: Pervis Ellison, Louisville, 1986

BlueHeaven
03-17-2012, 06:28 PM
I have nothing of substance to add. I was just happy to see the boards back up so I could console myself with friends. I have moped around all day. Thanks, Miles. Not how I wanted to see you go out!

OldSchool
03-17-2012, 06:32 PM
Really? I'm not trying to be offensive.....just voicing my frustrations through a video parody. I actually liked our team this year. They weren't as talented as other years, which made the games more fun (I was never sure if we would win or not, in most of our close games).

kville33 may be talking about the f-bombs and other obscenities in your parody. DBR follows the "grandmother" rule if you look at the posting guidelines.

A good Hitler parody though will still get me laughing if someone can come up with really clever subtitles for it.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 06:33 PM
Well then things are completely out of whack if a season is viewed as a disappointing one if you don't make the final four. UK has already had a terrific season in my opinion.
Tell that to John Calipari, Ashley Judd and all those Blue fans and you will see how wrong you are if Kentucky fails to make the Final 4.

Udaman
03-17-2012, 06:35 PM
kville33 may be talking about the f-bombs and other obscenities in your parody. DBR follows the "grandmother" rule if you look at the posting guidelines.

A good Hitler parody though will still get me laughing if someone can come up with really clever subtitles for it.

Oh yikes! I didn't mean that. I'll edit the post and take out the link. If anyone wants to see it, PM me and I'll send you the link.

Udaman
03-17-2012, 06:39 PM
Oh yikes! I didn't mean that. I'll edit the post and take out the link. If anyone wants to see it, PM me and I'll send you the link.

It won't let me edit the post. Moderators - if you think the video is too harsh, please edit it out and let people PM me if they want to see it.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 06:57 PM
I think the fans unrealistic expectations are what need some work.

It's not unrealistic to expect a victory over a 15 seed from the Patriot League. This was the most humiliating loss of the K era at Duke.

Turk
03-17-2012, 07:01 PM
Regarding play selection and scouting, it seems Duke was only using half a dozen plays too... If you see a Plumlee standing at the top of the key, it's pretty obvious what's coming next... Seriously, Duke is on TV enough that I think it's pretty easy for opponents to get all the game recordings they need to prep, especially in the digital era.

Overall, the more I think about it, the more I believe this season was one of Coach K's better efforts, last night's upset notwithstanding. As noted by a lot of posters, the team was missing some major pieces to be complete. He built the team around the Plumlees taking care of the boards and giving some inside production, Austin's offense, and 3 point shooting from whomever happened to be hitting that night. Not a whole lot of margin for error in that recipe.

Statistically, our 3 point shooting isn't THAT much of a strength, with a season percentage of .371 good for a rank somewhere around 50 in D-1. Individually, Ryan is the best, shooting at .408, and everyone else in the mid to high 30s (at least above the "Mendoza line" of 33%). Looking at the national stats, you need 43% to make the top 100 individually, and close to 49% to make the top 10. So when the 3-pointers weren't falling last night, I was perplexed when some players backed up even further and kept on jacking them.

I think the lack of quality point guard was the biggest missing piece. I hadn't looked closely at the stats until today, and I was surprised to see that no one averaged more than 2.4 assists a game. I'll have to do some more browsing to see when was the last time a Duke team leader's assist average was so low. In his comments about McCollum last night, Coach K said, "Him being on the floor makes everybody better. So if we could have fouled him out or got him into foul trouble, that would have been the best strategy because he just makes people better. "

My questions: Who is the guy (or will be the guy next season) who will "just make people better?" It's yet another way to think about chemistry. Who's the "glue guy"? And who is the guy who will spread the ball around and make sure it's going where it needs to be? Like everyone else, I've seen plenty of times where it looked like the bigs had their guy sealed but didn't get the ball for whatever reason. I'm fine with that if the ball is going somewhere else and creating opportunities for others, but when a guard is just standing there dribbling the air out of the ball, then he's the wrong guy with it.

This season brought some unforgettable highlights, and the team had some nice wins, and a great win for the ages. For next season, let's see who comes and who goes, and how the team fits together. Every season and every team is different, and I'm confident that Coack K will figure out how to get the most of whatever the kids bring to the table. And maybe he'll come up with a new wrinkle or two after coaching the Olympics again.

P.S. Mrs. Turk is a Lehigh grad, so there's some silver lining for me. And she said, "If Lehigh was going to win, why couldn't it have been Carolina?"

-jk
03-17-2012, 07:02 PM
Tell that to John Calipari, Ashley Judd and all those Blue fans and you will see how wrong you are if Kentucky fails to make the Final 4.

I think I'm seeing a trend here. If your lens is the UK fanbase, you most assuredly have your priorities out of whack. As a litmus test, they're completely - um - whacked.

-jk

-jk
03-17-2012, 07:06 PM
It's not unrealistic to expect a victory over a 15 seed from the Patriot League. This was the most humiliating loss of the K era at Duke.

"Expecting" a victory is a warning that you may have inflated expectations.

-jk

uh_no
03-17-2012, 07:09 PM
It's not unrealistic to expect a victory over a 15 seed from the Patriot League. This was the most humiliating loss of the K era at Duke.

It's unrealistic to EXPECT a victory over anybody. This post unnecessarily demeans a VERY good lehigh team.

WHen you expect victory, the basketball gods punish you.

I'm not sure fans should be the judge of humiliating. It's not the fan's necks that are out on the line. ITs the coaches and players. If they can come out and say we fought, then I think its very conceited for a fan to come out and say it was humiliating. The players play to win games, not to fulfill your expectations and allow you to be smug at victory or humiliated in defeat.

Tell me this, would you go up to the team and players and tell them they should be humiliated at their loss? Don't do it here either. I'm darn proud to be a duke fan, I'm proud of our team, and they should be proud of themselves, never humiliated.

OldSchool
03-17-2012, 07:11 PM
My questions: Who is the guy (or will be the guy next season) who will "just make people better?" It's yet another way to think about chemistry. Who's the "glue guy"? And who is the guy who will spread the ball around and make sure it's going where it needs to be?

If Austin comes back we could find ourselves blessed with two guys who do that for us next year: Quinn and Austin.

Austin made a big improvement throughout the course of the year in terms of general court vision and seeing the defensive rotations, but he still has a lot more upside in his ability to get the defense out of position and get baskets for other players, not just himself. I would expects his assists per minute to go up significantly next year.

And a healthy Quinn with a year of experience and a good offseason could be the true point who can regularly get 6 assists per game and get the bigs the ball in positions where they can easily capitalize on it.

Turk
03-17-2012, 07:19 PM
It's not unrealistic to expect a victory over a 15 seed from the Patriot League. This was the most humiliating loss of the K era at Duke.

I beg to differ. The Patriot League has sent a couple dangerous teams. If memory serves, Bucknell beat Kansas and Arkansas.

As for humiliating losses, my vote goes still to the legendary opening round game in the 1983 ACC tournament, when UVA beat Duke 109-66, where Coach K gave the "Here's to NEVER forgetting tonight" quote.

http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/dukemag/issues/010206/eightysixers1.html

And I would say it wasn't even the worst loss this season. The spanking by Ohio State and UNC in Cameron were worse. Last night Duke played hard, but not just not tough enough to grind out a win...

cspan37421
03-17-2012, 07:23 PM
It's not unrealistic to expect a victory over a 15 seed from the Patriot League. This was the most humiliating loss of the K era at Duke.

Hmmmm.... I've always heard that the standard-bearer for that title was the home loss to Wagner early in his tenure. I don't know enough about Wagner then, but Lehigh had the 4th leading scorer in the country, and we already had not been playing very well .... I think I beg to differ, pending further information.

duke96
03-17-2012, 07:48 PM
It won't let me edit the post. Moderators - if you think the video is too harsh, please edit it out and let people PM me if they want to see it.

This was hysterical. Very well done

Johnny Chill
03-17-2012, 07:56 PM
Mason, Kelly, Dawkins, and Curry will all be Seniors next season. This is gut check time. I hope they take some time to reflect on this game and the season, and use it to fuel them during the summer to improved their individual games to help lead the team for next season, their final season at Duke.

MChambers
03-17-2012, 08:08 PM
I will remember this loss as the game that finally buried "The Show" in the Duke/UNC rivalry.

My Duke friends will never again be able to bring up the ghost of Harold Arceneaux and the Weber St. loss in the '99 tourney without me replying "Lehigh" and having the last word on tourney upsets...(for a while, at least).

UNC was a 3 seed and Weber St. was a 14 seed in that loss, and we know Lehigh was a 15 seed and Duke was a 2 in this one, so...

Duke fans got about 12 good years out of that dig, count your blessings and take your medicine Dukie's for this one.....:)
I'd rather lose to a 15 seed than be NIT runner-up!

Wheat, on a serious note, thanks for your temperate posts here.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 08:09 PM
It's unrealistic to EXPECT a victory over anybody. This post unnecessarily demeans a VERY good lehigh team.

WHen you expect victory, the basketball gods punish you.

I'm not sure fans should be the judge of humiliating. It's not the fan's necks that are out on the line. ITs the coaches and players. If they can come out and say we fought, then I think its very conceited for a fan to come out and say it was humiliating. The players play to win games, not to fulfill your expectations and allow you to be smug at victory or humiliated in defeat.

Tell me this, would you go up to the team and players and tell them they should be humiliated at their loss? Don't do it here either. I'm darn proud to be a duke fan, I'm proud of our team, and they should be proud of themselves, never humiliated.


OK. Maybe "disappointing" would have been a better word to describe the loss.

MaxAMillion
03-17-2012, 08:14 PM
I think I'm seeing a trend here. If your lens is the UK fanbase, you most assuredly have your priorities out of whack. As a litmus test, they're completely - um - whacked.

-jk

Thank you...UK fans are none for being completely irrational. I wouldn't use them as an example of a group who has their priorities straight.

Kdogg
03-17-2012, 08:28 PM
I will remember this loss as the game that finally buried "The Show" in the Duke/UNC rivalry.

My Duke friends will never again be able to bring up the ghost of Harold Arceneaux and the Weber St. loss in the '99 tourney without me replying "Lehigh" and having the last word on tourney upsets...(for a while, at least).

UNC was a 3 seed and Weber St. was a 14 seed in that loss, and we know Lehigh was a 15 seed and Duke was a 2 in this one, so...

Duke fans got about 12 good years out of that dig, count your blessings and take your medicine Dukie's for this one.....:)

We still have BC over UNC in 1994. Regardless of seeding (1 vs 8) that was one of the biggest upsets in UNC history. They were a powerhouse (8 McD's AA, number 1 in the county, etc...) and there was less parity in college basketball.

muzikfrk75
03-17-2012, 08:42 PM
Couldn't resist....I had to make a video about Hitler learning that Duke lost to Lehigh.

Here's hoping that laughter can make us all feel a bit better....pm me if you want the link. (Rated R due to language)

Udaman




LOL...well done...although I know tomorrow at work is gonna be ROUGH.

kingboozer
03-17-2012, 08:48 PM
I've seen several people either say or elude that they believe this is the most embarrassing lose in the K era of Duke basketball. Let me remind you...

2007 Round 2 - Lost to 11 seed VCU (Before Smart came along and anyone had heard of them.)
1990 Championship game - Lost to UNLV by 30 (still not over this one, even after the next 2 titles.)
1995 Regular Season - Lost to UCLA by 23 (The O'Bannon brothers rolled, we were favored to win big)
1993 Round 2 - Upset lose to Cal (were favored to 3-peat as champions)

Plus countless UNC matchups and others that were heart breakers for us. This one hurts but is far from our worst. Like coach said we've had some high highs and low lows, here are some of the highs...

1991 Final Four -Beat UNLV (avenged that UNLV blowout by handing them their first lose of the year, won title No. 1.)
1992 Elite Eight - The Shot...that is all.
1992 Championship - Beat the Fab Five by 20 (even better now after Jalen Rose's comments about us.)
2001 Regular Season - Beat a stacked Maryland squad (the miracle minute, Duke down by 10 with 54 sec left, came back to tie, send to OT and win)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T9_pPqWfI84#!
2001 Championship - Beat Arizona for No.3 (Great season, legendary players.)
1981 Senior Night - Beat UNC (Gene Banks buzzer beater, gave K his first victory over UNC.)
2010 Championship - Beat Butler for No. 4 (overachieving Duke squad wins title No. 4.)
2012 Regular Season - The other shot (rough ending to the season for the Devil's, but this will be a piece of UNC/Duke rivalry history for years and years to come and something to hang our hats on this season)

CajunDevil
03-17-2012, 09:04 PM
This is the most embarrassing loss in K's career, imo. Only 5 other #15 seeds over #2 seeds in history. This was a historic loss in the tourney, not a regular season game or an ACC tourney game... No need to sugar coat this one. Let's accept it, give Lehigh credit, give kudos to Miles, and move on to next year's considerable potential. Next play

Saratoga2
03-17-2012, 09:10 PM
I watched Seth during the game and noticed he looked tired from the get go with a yawn and bags under his eyes. I wonder if he was feeling sick or just was worn out by lack of sleep. It appeared that he tried hard but his effectiveness was limited. I wonder about the health of all the team prior to the game. I doubt that anyone would admit to being sick, since it sounds like making excuses.

loldevilz
03-17-2012, 09:12 PM
This is the most embarrassing loss in K's career, imo. Only 5 other #15 seeds over #2 seeds in history. This was a historic loss in the tourney, not a regular season game or an ACC tourney game... No need to sugar coat this one. Let's accept it, give Lehigh credit, give kudos to Miles, and move on to next year's considerable potential. Next play

Yup, this was an embarrassing loss by pretty much every standard. But its important to remember that even Yankees fans have the 2004 ALCS. There are going to be bad times. Surely Duke has had its share of bad times the last two years with bad upsets to Arizona and now Lehigh. Most important thing is that the team and coaching staff learns from it. And I think there is A LOT to be learned. It all starts with humility.

jv001
03-17-2012, 09:14 PM
This is the most embarrassing loss in K's career, imo. Only 5 other #15 seeds over #2 seeds in history. This was a historic loss in the tourney, not a regular season game or an ACC tourney game... No need to sugar coat this one. Let's accept it, give Lehigh credit, give kudos to Miles, and move on to next year's considerable potential. Next play

Well I can't speak for Coach K, but it is the most embarrassing loss since Coach K became our coach. I'm really going to catch it tomorrow in church. I'm the kind of guy that does not rub in another team's loss, but that doesn't stop some of my friends. I've just learned to not pay any attention to them and go on to the next play. In the end, we're still Duke and they're still the tarholes. GoDuke!

DukieTiger
03-17-2012, 09:17 PM
Lehigh is ranked similarly to teams like Clemson, Colorado (who's an 11 seed, btw) and Illinois. While people will call it a huge upset because of relative names, players, expectations and seeds- it's nowhere near the upset many are making it sound and it's not close to Duke's most embarrassing loss. I'm more embarrassed by the loss to OSU earlier this year, honestly. There's just more emotion tied to this one because it's at the end of the year and was on a bigger stage.

CajunDevil
03-17-2012, 09:23 PM
Lehigh is ranked similarly to teams like Clemson, Colorado (who's an 11 seed, btw) and Illinois. While people will call it a huge upset because of relative names, players, expectations and seeds- it's nowhere near the upset many are making it sound and it's not close to Duke's most embarrassing loss. I'm more embarrassed by the loss to OSU earlier this year, honestly. There's just more emotion tied to this one because it's at the end of the year and was on a bigger stage.

The only other game comparable would be UNLV in 1990, imo. Reg season games are on a whole diff level.

MCFinARL
03-17-2012, 09:32 PM
Lehigh is ranked similarly to teams like Clemson, Colorado (who's an 11 seed, btw) and Illinois. While people will call it a huge upset because of relative names, players, expectations and seeds- it's nowhere near the upset many are making it sound and it's not close to Duke's most embarrassing loss. I'm more embarrassed by the loss to OSU earlier this year, honestly. There's just more emotion tied to this one because it's at the end of the year and was on a bigger stage.

Yeah, if I had to pick, I guess I'd rather lose to Lehigh, with a Kenpom rating of #73 (after yesterday), than Norfolk State, with a Kenpom rating of #188 (after beating Missouri). And to be honest, Lehigh matched up well against Duke, especially a duke without Kelly. It's still painful but it could be worse.

Kfanarmy
03-17-2012, 09:58 PM
So I really thought Duke would go on a run in the tourney; that with another week to tweak the offense, post-kelly injury, it would be better. I said as much in the thread on fixing the offense. Unfortunately, I was mystified by the offense last night...I know McCullum played a decent game. I say decent because he shot 40% from the field and less than 70% from the line. Those aren't exceptional numbers. He did exactly what Coach K expected and should have been a secondary highlight to a Duke drubbing of Lehigh. That's not bad-mouthing Lehigh; that's just recognition of the tradition, talent, and size Duke had in their corner.

Oh I know there are those on their high horses, talking about what fans shouldn't expect...dealing with the loss the way they do, making themselves feel better by judging other fans, rather than evaluating a Duke loss and the reasons/performances that fell short. I'll just have to admit to being one of those not-so-worthy humans who sees the shortcomings in a performance while trying not to denegrate the young men who played. Pls climb upon the high horse and explain to the players and coaches next time you see them that they shouldn't expect to win. Expecting to win and putting in the work to do so, I think, comes with confidence.

You could certainly see on Miles face last night in the post-game presser that he EXPECTED to win. I, along with him and not just a couple of his teammates, are likely confounded by the offensive performance of the team. M&M worked their butts off...yeah they got in a bit of foul trouble, but they were dominant for the most part when they had the ball. I do think Mason can use some work in getting to a missed shot. On at least a couple of occasions the ball was halfway to the floor from a miss before he began to react, and smaller perimeter players scooped it up before he could get there...I'm not sure if that is reaction time or moments of lost focus...at least once it was clear that if he had gone up for the rebound rather than staying flat-footed, he could have had the ball. Still you can't fault his overall performance.

AR was the focus of the perimeter D; I thought he did a great job on both ends of the floor.

What I can't quite figure out is what is going on with Andre and Seth. I recall a play where Andre missed a shot in the 1st half and the camera followed him for a couple of seconds down the court -- I knew he was done...perhaps not off the court, but you could see on his face a "woe is me" look; he was done. A moment later he was trying to chase a ball handler who had dribbled around him into the paint to score. If a decent guard can work to get Andre switched onto him, he can penetrate into the heart of the defense without being forced into an interior defender. I am not sure what is going on there, but am concerned that he may not have the ability to shake off momentary adversity on the court enough to play defense and keep himself in the game mentally. Shooters are going to have ups and downs, but passing, positioning and defending have to continue.

Seth, I thought would be a great passer, but for the life of me I can't understand why he doesn't look to pass the ball inside. I know we, most of us, don't have access to practices, but I refuse to believe that passing into the post hasn't been a point of emphasis for this team, especially in the past two weeks. Time after time Mason and Miles rolled to the post, hands up, eyes on the dribbler...not even a glance made at them. I understand the difficulty passing into the interior when the other team is significantly taller, but he seems to always take that dribble which destroys the potential to pass inside.

I think Duke teams in the past have proven, that you can win with three good scorers, as long as the other two players on the court at least require some significant effort to guard and prevent effective passing. There simply were not 5 guys involved in the offense in a serious way last night...and I really don't consider dribbling the ball in a near stationary position for 10 seconds then heaving it to the rim a threat the defense has to worry about.

Yes, I did expect Duke to win against a 15 seed. Even if Lehigh "should have been" ranked a 7 seed, I expected Duke to win; and I would bet Coach K expected it to. Should he feel bad for the expectation as well? If he said "we should expect to win that game" would someone claim he was dissing Lehigh? ...so the unexpected happened. My issue is, I'm not sure the offensive problems can be fixed by an off-season. The weaknesses with the offense were mental for the most part. The players at the heart of the perimeter problems, offensively and defensively, would normally expect to be starters next year.

I look forward to watching Duke again next year, but wonder if there won't need to be significant changes in the pecking order for minutes if Duke expects to get past the first weekend next year.

dukelifer
03-17-2012, 09:58 PM
This is the most embarrassing loss in K's career, imo. Only 5 other #15 seeds over #2 seeds in history. This was a historic loss in the tourney, not a regular season game or an ACC tourney game... No need to sugar coat this one. Let's accept it, give Lehigh credit, give kudos to Miles, and move on to next year's considerable potential. Next play

I doubt that this is the most embarrassing loss in his opinion. I am sure it would have been much tougher if he did not have the most wins of any coach or 4 national championships. He been coaching long enough to know that on any given night a decent team can take out a more talented team. The difference between a 15 and a 2 is not what it used to be. Yesterday proved that twice.

dukelifer
03-17-2012, 10:04 PM
Well I can't speak for Coach K, but it is the most embarrassing loss since Coach K became our coach. I'm really going to catch it tomorrow in church. I'm the kind of guy that does not rub in another team's loss, but that doesn't stop some of my friends. I've just learned to not pay any attention to them and go on to the next play. In the end, we're still Duke and they're still the tarholes. GoDuke!

I still think the UNLV beatdown in the championship game was much more embarrassing. 2nd time to the championship game for K- and his team was overwhelmed. Duke had gotten to the FF a number of times in a row and it looked like Duke would never ever get a title. That one was hard to take. This loss was bad but not having Kelly was a big reason for the outcome.

jipops
03-17-2012, 10:13 PM
I will remember this loss as the game that finally buried "The Show" in the Duke/UNC rivalry.

My Duke friends will never again be able to bring up the ghost of Harold Arceneaux and the Weber St. loss in the '99 tourney without me replying "Lehigh" and having the last word on tourney upsets...(for a while, at least).

UNC was a 3 seed and Weber St. was a 14 seed in that loss, and we know Lehigh was a 15 seed and Duke was a 2 in this one, so...

Duke fans got about 12 good years out of that dig, count your blessings and take your medicine Dukie's for this one.....:)

For you maybe, but not for me. When has UNC ever taken such a flawed, overachieving team to the tournament as a 2 seed nursing a key injury? How underachieving was that '99 heels team with all that front court talent only to be crushed on the boards by Weber St (Haywood one board in that game).

Getting so much out of this team over the course of the season in many ways left us open to 2 vs. 15 type upset. We've seen many teams with similar struggles end up in the tournament as something like a 6 seed, if at all (see 2010).

Ima Facultiwyfe
03-17-2012, 10:34 PM
Holy smokes, this deserves an entire thread. Insufferably jeering, shoving, yowling and monkeying it up the entire game, the tarholes were beyond the pale.
There's no real description for the level of barefaced hate they exhibited. I so hope they choke on their own bile.
Curse them.

Yep. That's why I always cringe when I see we've been sent to Greensboro. Did anybody see the sea of KY fans rooting for Murray State today? It was terrific. Say what you will about Kentucky people, they stick together from stem to stern.
Love, Ima

CajunDevil
03-17-2012, 10:41 PM
I doubt that this is the most embarrassing loss in his opinion. I am sure it would have been much tougher if he did not have the most wins of any coach or 4 national championships. He been coaching long enough to know that on any given night a decent team can take out a more talented team. The difference between a 15 and a 2 is not what it used to be. Yesterday proved that twice.


I partially agree that a 15 over a 2 is not what it used to be because I think lower seeded teams are better now than they used to be, however it had been 11 years since it happened twice yesterday. So, not sure how to interpret that...

I really don't care whether this is the most embarrassing or the 5th or 10th embarrassing. I'm more interested in where we go from here.

NYC Duke Fan
03-17-2012, 10:43 PM
Isn't it time to maybe say what is the truth...We were just not a very good team and were very overrated.

I remember on a thread asking who you thought would be the final 4 teams, many posters had Duke and many posters had Duke winning it all.Were they watching the same team that I was?. A team that lost to Miami and FSU at home, got creamed by UNC at home, struggled against VA Tech, struggled in the second half against Wake and St. John's..the last 3 teams were not even in the tournament.

I think that because we were Duke and had Coach K we got a number 2 seed. Does anyone really believe that at the end of the year Duke was a top 8 team? They were not even a top 12 team.

I know a lot of you think that Duke had a very good season, there are some who think that Duke had a ,"great", season. I certainly respect your opinion and hope that you respect mine when I say that in my opinion Duke had a disappointing season and was probably the most overrated team in the country.

If Rivers and Mason leave, next year could be worse.

gep
03-17-2012, 10:51 PM
I doubt that this is the most embarrassing loss in his opinion. I am sure it would have been much tougher if he did not have the most wins of any coach or 4 national championships. He been coaching long enough to know that on any given night a decent team can take out a more talented team. The difference between a 15 and a 2 is not what it used to be. Yesterday proved that twice.

(bolded) is why I don't think this is "the most embarrassing loss"... a #2 seed losing to a #15 seed. In the last few years, with the changed landscape of college basketball (with all of those early entrants to the NBA), the top teams, who get the "best" players, don't get to keep those "best" players for more than a couple of years, at most. The "so-called" mid-majors get really good, sound players, and build a team over the course of their 4 years. So to me, yes, the difference between a 15 and a 2 "team" is definitely not like it was 10+ years ago.

Lehigh is a very good team. When I saw the brackets, my only thought was "oh no... here we go". So I'm not surprised that Lehigh played so well, and also not surprised (unfortunately) that Duke struggled. But as least, Duke had a chance to win at the end.

Next year.... GO DUKE!!!

MCFinARL
03-17-2012, 11:03 PM
I partially agree that a 15 over a 2 is not what it used to be because I think lower seeded teams are better now than they used to be, however it had been 11 years since it happened twice yesterday. So, not sure how to interpret that...

I really don't care whether this is the most embarrassing or the 5th or 10th embarrassing. I'm more interested in where we go from here.

Well, in addition to lower seeded teams being better than they used to be, I feel like this year, frankly, there just weren't a lot of really outstanding teams. Kentucky looks like it might be an outstanding team. Some other teams many people thought would be juggernauts before the season began, like OSU or UNC, have been good but not great so far, though they still have a chance to rise to the occasion in the tournament if they can. Others, like Michigan State, started rough but have improved as the season goes on. But overall I think the gap between lower seeds and most of the higher seeded teams just isn't as big this year as it is some years.

In the current era, where big-program coaches face the challenge of making a team quickly out of a mix of 1- or 2-year players and 3- or 4-year players, while mid-majors work mostly with 4-year players, the lower-seeded teams can make up for much of what they lack in pure talent with the team chemistry that is built from years of playing with the same guys, knowing what they do best, knowing what they are likely to do in a given situation and how to capitalize on it. This ultimately means not only that the lower seeded teams are better but that the top teams aren't as good. It varies from year to year depending on how many big-conference programs have a critical mass of older players and/or mature short-term players who blend well.
Edit: I see gep made my point more quickly and more succinctly while I was writing my post. :)

gep
03-17-2012, 11:17 PM
Well, in addition to lower seeded teams being better than they used to be, I feel like this year, frankly, there just weren't a lot of really outstanding teams. Kentucky looks like it might be an outstanding team. Some other teams many people thought would be juggernauts before the season began, like OSU or UNC, have been good but not great so far, though they still have a chance to rise to the occasion in the tournament if they can. Others, like Michigan State, started rough but have improved as the season goes on. But overall I think the gap between lower seeds and most of the higher seeded teams just isn't as big this year as it is some years.

In the current era, where big-program coaches face the challenge of making a team quickly out of a mix of 1- or 2-year players and 3- or 4-year players, while mid-majors work mostly with 4-year players, the lower-seeded teams can make up for much of what they lack in pure talent with the team chemistry that is built from years of playing with the same guys, knowing what they do best, knowing what they are likely to do in a given situation and how to capitalize on it. This ultimately means not only that the lower seeded teams are better but that the top teams aren't as good. It varies from year to year depending on how many big-conference programs have a critical mass of older players and/or mature short-term players who blend well.
Edit: I see gep made my point more quickly and more succinctly while I was writing my post. :)

Thanks... MCFinARL. Maybe more quickly, but I don't know about more succinctly. Your comment (bolded, especially underlined) to me is one of the keys that gives the mid-major a big advantage.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-17-2012, 11:17 PM
For you maybe, but not for me. When has UNC ever taken such a flawed, overachieving team to the tournament as a 2 seed nursing a key injury? How underachieving was that '99 heels team with all that front court talent only to be crushed on the boards by Weber St (Haywood one board in that game).

Getting so much out of this team over the course of the season in many ways left us open to 2 vs. 15 type upset. We've seen many teams with similar struggles end up in the tournament as something like a 6 seed, if at all (see 2010).

I really don't think it's fair to call Duke a "flawed, overachieving" team. I think, if anything, they under achieved myself.

This was a very good team overall, good players, that just didn't adjust very well late in the season as teams pressured the perimiter.

As for '99, it was an odd game and "the show" went off. UNC got beat. Stuff happens in the tourney.

There's really no reason to dwell on an injury and what ifs. It would be easy to play this game. UNC has had plenty over the years that definitely affected their title hopes, including this one, but to be champions, teams have to deal with anything that happens, or else somebody who does gets the nets around their necks.

That's just the way it is.

weezie
03-18-2012, 12:30 AM
That's just the way it is.

Oh Wheat, so Wheatnessissity. Thank you for being Wheaty.

It's just sports after all.

DukieInKansas
03-18-2012, 12:58 AM
As always, I am disappointed for the team but never disappointed in them. Lehigh played a great game and deserves congratulations. Thank you team for another season of games to watch. I wish there had been a few more to watch but that's the way it goes. Thank you, Miles, for 4 wonderful years. Best of luck in the future.

I'm grateful to Norfolk State. Living in Big 12 territory, the news of Missou's loss dominated the news and there wasn't as much about the Duke loss. My brackets are busted - so now I'm rooting for all the underdogs!

Steven43
03-18-2012, 01:14 AM
I guess we know the answer to question regarding how important Ryan really was to this team. Frustrating final two weeks to an otherwise very nice year. Plenty to be proud of and hopefully something solid to build on for next year.

Ryan played a lot of minutes and was 1-8 from the field with one rebound in our last game against UNC in what might have been his least effective game as a Blue Devil. I'm still holding out hope that he can play during his senior year the way he played at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, where he showed great promise. I think if he would just put a bit more arch on his shot a higher percentage of them would go in and he would learn to trust himself more in the pressure moments. It looks like he doesn't really believe his shot is going in when the game is tight. He definitely has the potential to be a first or second team all-ACC player if he could improve this aspect of his game. I'm pulling for him.

johnb
03-18-2012, 01:59 AM
if AR makes people better--as has been implied--how, exactly? He breaks down teams individually better than anyone we have, but I just don't see it translating into easy buckets for teammates. Since I don't think he's lottery in a deep draft, I think he sticks.

Coach K is terrific, but he didn't have to play the cards he was dealt. that would be mike d'antoni. K gets to recruit. If we have missing pieces, it's ultimately his fault. I'm also wondering which kinds of teams he excels with. Coaching Kobe is different from coaching Thornton, like coaching against Argentina is diff than coaching against lehigh. regardless, this team's deficits seemed more about psychology than strategy, but it's also disciplined enough not to reveal the problems.

I'm not sure an additional year will help Mason in his draft stock; I hope he sticks around, but KI getting injured and leaving early likely cost him a top 10 payday last year (Irving made him look like a star).

Biscuitboy
03-18-2012, 02:39 AM
After pausing long enough to let my emotions settle, here's my take:
Lehigh, a #15 seed with inferior talent out-competed our team. They were more focused, intense, and hungry than the Blue Devils. I believe that this first round loss was ultimately about our emotional health as a team. Lehigh showed up aggressive and fearless. We showed up disconnected and flat. This Duke team did not possess a definitive, collective will to do everything in its power to win. The resolve and trust required to function dynamically and definitively as a team was not present. I believe that the coaching collective must absorb the responsibility for not developing a team chemistry and identity that can rise to the challenge of an adversary that is completely committed to denying our advantages.

We did not take it to Lehigh. We did not take it to Temple. We did not take it to Miami. We did not take it to Virginia Tech. They took it to us. I think Carolina and Florida State were better and stronger than us. Throw those games out. Earlier in the year, we rose to the occasion. After the victory at Carolina (hoops highlight of the year by far), we did regress.

It's not a skills thing or a talent thing, it's an emotional thing. We weren't a fist. We weren't a cohesive, committed team. We were a bevy of guards and an inadequate front line that didn't come together as a team. I believe our bigs were under utilized. Mason Plumlee is highly skilled. He has the tools to go pro, but his performance suggests staying. Ryan Kelly remains an enigma to me. He has the skills to dominate. He has not delivered one single dominating performance. His absence and our team's performance without him suggests that he is the lynchpin to our gameplan. Kyle Singler is iron. Is Ryan Kelly?

Our guard play was frustrating. Individuals functioning independantly. Austin Rivers delivered. Tyler Thorton brought a focus and a committment to defense and and a degree of leadership that this team desperately needs. Seth Curry did a lot of positive things, but ultimately his potential was not realized on a night in and night out level. Seth under-performed based on his level of skill and talent. Bad chemistry vis-a-vis Rivers and Thorton? Again, the molding of a team falls on the shoulders of the coaching collective. I think the coaching collective has failed with repsect to guard play.

Andre Dawkins is a shooter. We all want Andre to succeed and score. His game has not evolved. Is that on Andre or the coaching staff? Time will tell. I have been encouraged when Andre has attacked the basket. If he can stroke the outside shot AND go to the hoop with confidence and success, he will be unstoppable. He has that potential. It is up to him to deliver that desire to maximize his potential. On both sides of the floor.

Miles: I feel for him. He did improve and grow this year. Did he maximize his potential? No. I believe he offrered a much more dynamic offensive skill set than we capitalized on. He did not maximize his potential. He is a phenomenal athelete with the offensive repetoire to deliver a double double every game. We weren't able to create that for him. Again, I see this as a coaching issue. I am happy with his improvement and relish that, but we just lost to a #15 seeded Lehigh team.

After watching that game I can't help thinking that we should have done better. I put that on the coaches. To prepare and be ready, that's their job. We weren't ready and Lehigh spanked us. They out-competed us. We weren't together and the team was not on the same page.

We have had so much success. The 2011-2012 Blue Devils did not demonstrate the confidece or team trust that it takes to win when challenged. We must correct that. Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.

kingboozer
03-18-2012, 05:07 AM
Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.


EASY there, I see where that's going! We are fortunate to have not just a great coach, but one the most legendary coaches to ever step foot onto a court. All time wins record, 4 national titles (one being only 2 years ago), 8 championship games, gold medals,coaches of the year (national,acc,naismith), the list goes on and on. There isn't a single coach out there today that has the accomplishments that K does and I doubt there ever will. A coach like K comes around once a generation and we should thank our lucky stars he's still performing at the level he is 32 years later. Every time we step out on the court, no matter who we play, we have an advantage just by being coached by him. This was a tough lose but Coach K is only human and he did a lot with what he had this past season and my hat is off to him and the staff.

Buckeye Devil
03-18-2012, 08:22 AM
Any assault on a coach with these credentials is plain insane. Something went woefully wrong but reaching that kind of conclusion is without any basis in reason. We are only 2 years removed from a 4th national title followed by a Sweet 16 appearance in 2011. Duke losing to Lehigh is still unbelieveable to me but I can't go to that extreme and call myself a rational person. We need more players and athletes to be sure and there was a talent gap this year regardless of what we would like to admit. But in my mind, Coach K is the greatest coach in the history of college basketball at this point.

dukelifer
03-18-2012, 08:29 AM
We did not take it to Lehigh. We did not take it to Temple. We did not take it to Miami. We did not take it to Virginia Tech. They took it to us. I think Carolina and Florida State were better and stronger than us. Throw those games out. Earlier in the year, we rose to the occasion. After the victory at Carolina (hoops highlight of the year by far), we did regress.

Again, the molding of a team falls on the shoulders of the coaching collective. I think the coaching collective has failed with repsect to guard play.
To prepare and be ready, that's their job. We weren't ready and Lehigh spanked us. They out-competed us. We weren't together and the team was not on the same page.

Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.

Virginia Tech took it to us? Hmmm- I thought we beat them twice. That said- everyone takes it to us. We also beat Fla State late in the year on the road. What happened this year was a loss of Chemistry with the loss of Ryan. Not sure why it hinged on him- but somehow it did. The team had a bad stretch and a hard nose team beat them. Lehigh was not inferior. They are a solid team who is used to winning. But the question you pose is what to do now. Should we swap out a coach who somehow had the energy and incentive to motivate a team of "alarmingly un-athletic" players to a NC two years ago or who motivated a bunch of high-paid pros to come together to win a World Championship and the Olympics? Sure makes sense to me. The game has clearly passed him by. (This of course is sarcasm for those who cannot tell)

Starter
03-18-2012, 08:58 AM
Glad your accident was relatively minor... And yes that was one crazy game.

Thanks Wheat, appreciate it. Really scary stuff. I recall a friend had a Weber State t-shirt shipped in after that game, which was funny at the time, but not a look I would have gone for. Maybe it's that I'm not from down there and don't live down there now, but I never quite get into that sort of thing -- I never owned a GTHC t-shirt, same as I only wear Mets shirts and never anti-Yankees shirts up here now -- but I think I'm firmly in the minority.

sagegrouse
03-18-2012, 09:23 AM
We have had so much success. The 2011-2012 Blue Devils did not demonstrate the confidece or team trust that it takes to win when challenged. We must correct that. Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.

Ancient Pentagon Proverb: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

"Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting cognitions (e.g., ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions) simultaneously." Contrasting the belief that Coach K must go with the record of the past five years must be very painful to you:


90+ weeks in the AP top ten,

three ACC championships,

one National Championship,

84% winning percentage in all games,

79% winning percentage in ACC games.

While I feel your pain, I am happy I don't share it.

I know "every day is an audition," but WRT Duke basketball, isn't this a bit far-fetched?

sagegrouse

oldnavy
03-18-2012, 10:02 AM
Ancient Pentagon Proverb: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

"Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting cognitions (e.g., ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions) simultaneously." Contrasting the belief that Coach K must go with the record of the past five years must be very painful to you:


90+ weeks in the AP top ten,

three ACC championships,

one National Championship,

84% winning percentage in all games,

79% winning percentage in ACC games.

While I feel your pain, I am happy I don't share it.

I know "every day is an audition," but WRT Duke basketball, isn't this a bit far-fetched?

sagegrouse

Well you knew it was going to happen. A "disappointing season" and folks start questioning K's ability to adapt to the game.... come on folks, REALLY? I know we live in a time where only immediate gratification is acceptable, and the "what have you done for me lately" way of looking at things dominates the psyche, but again, REALLY.

Sage is right, if not kind in saying it is a bit far fetched to be questioning K at this point.

Now, having said that, I will say that this was not one of his finer coaching efforts IMO, and I only say that because this team never really achieved it's full potential.

I FULLY believe that K did everything in his power to pull this team together, but it never really happened, at least to the high standards that he has established from his own success.

Was it his "fault" that certain players never reached a level of consistency that they needed? I would say most likely not, but it was his responsibility to make that happen.

So, in the end Coach K is responsible for the good, the bad, and the ugly.

But if anyone thinks that he has "lost it" I would ask them to take a couple of deep breaths, and then try to find a coach with 1/10th of the success that K has had who didn't have a year now and then when things didn't quite come together as well as they could have.

Let's try to avoid the trap of becoming petulant and spoiled, and just realize that "hey, this was one of those years" and yes "stuff happens", and move on.

Off the soap box now!

AsiaMinor
03-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Thank you Miles. You are wrong that everyone will remember your "last game" more than others. I won't nor will many others. It was an honor to watch you grow to a man on the basketball court. However magnified these games are, they are at most 40 minutes from a day that has 24 hours. How you live your life the other 23 hours and 20 minutes is how everyone will remember you.

Thank you to the entire team. You improved on defense, our offense got a little wonky these last weeks and let us down in this particular game and a couple others. Entirely fixable for next year.

Thank you to Coach K for being not only the best coach to ever set foot on a court, but a man of integrity.

peteandpete
03-18-2012, 10:50 AM
Tried to post this yesterday, but don't think it went through so apologies if it did. Late in the game, when it became necessary to foul, three of the players on the court had four fouls and Tyler picked up his fifth in that situation. Austin had three fouls then and only had one to give because he was apparently the main offensive focus at that point. We also seemed to wait a long time for the offense/defense substitution pattern and when we did, Miles was left behind for Silent G (who had not really been a part of the game at that point). The first breakaway occurred soon after. Several times we seemed to have only one real scoring option on the court at a time which had to have helped Lehigh defensively. And the one thing they had no answer for (the Plumlees inside), we avoided for long periods of time. I have always believed that if you had made half your missed free throws, that is enough to make a difference and that might have been true here, too. Having said all this, Lehigh deserved the win and should be congratulated. It was just a game and there's more important stuff for us to do for our fellow man. But I do want us to win them all...even in football. This is my first post so be gentle.

rsvman
03-18-2012, 11:06 AM
Ryan played a lot of minutes and was 1-8 from the field with one rebound in our last game against UNC in what might have been his least effective game as a Blue Devil. I'm still holding out hope that he can play during his senior year the way he played at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, where he showed great promise. I think if he would just put a bit more arch on his shot a higher percentage of them would go in and he would learn to trust himself more in the pressure moments. It looks like he doesn't really believe his shot is going in when the game is tight. He definitely has the potential to be a first or second team all-ACC player if he could improve this aspect of his game. I'm pulling for him.

What are you talking about?

Are you aware of the fact that for the season Ryan was our most accurate 3-point shooter? Better than Curry, better than Rivers, better than Dawkins, better than anybody else.

And maybe my memory is sketchy but it seems to me that he made a pretty important jumper in the game against UNC at Chapel Hill........

WVDUKEFAN
03-18-2012, 12:07 PM
I would be the last to ever say a negative thing about Coach K. I think he runs a basketball program like no other. I do have to wonder where we are talent level wise. I have watched a lot of games, and it seems like the guards and forwards from "lesser" programs would play circles around our kids. I think the Plumlees were our most consistent players all year. I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't want to see Seth Curry as being one of our starters next year. I think Rivers did a fine job for us. I have read where other posters thought he was a "ball hog", but I really feel he tried to create offense when there wasn't any to create. I know the 3-point shot is a major part of our offense, but there comes a time when you need to drive the lane and go to the basket, and Austin did that for us. We just can't put the program on the shoulders of a freshman. This team lacked leadership that we've always had in the past. One thing about it, we have the best Coach in basketball, and he'll get us on the right track.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 03:08 PM
I don't know if anyone else felt this way, but I felt like this team didn't truly like each other.

I felt like the bigs and the guards were at odds, for obvious reasons. I can think of several instances where you had in-game tension.

That hurts overall team chemistry... and I think it might affect who comes back next year and who stays.

No fact or evidence, just observation and theory.

HateCarolina
03-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Best explanation I've heard regarding this season is that Duke got an inflated start due to the summer trip. The trip got the team off to a fantastic start, but as the "field" caught up, the learning curve wasn't as sharp.

The team had amazing potential (see v. MSU or at Chapel Hill) and also had the potential to mysteriously seem lost. I wish I could say that the end of the season was a big surprise, but frankly it wasn't at all.

I liked this team. Austin really won me over during the course of the season with his improved decision-making. I really hope that he sticks around for another season with Coach K (his post-game comments about how the only part of the team that showed up was the coaching staff reflected his respect for them rather profoundly) and I think that both he and the team would benefit greatly.

This team had the potential to run the table if the shots had fallen and the cards had come up right, and I hate any season that ends in a loss (most of them do) but I am proud of this team. I am proud that Duke continues to recruit "Duke guys" and that the continue to win "the right way." Yesterday I proudly wore my Duke 1991 Champions shirt (I break it out on special occasions) and I was in downtown Asheville headed to work when a guy with two small kids pointed and said "hey, see that shirt?" His kid (maybe six years old) said "yeah?" He said "that means he's a good guy."

Go Duke. GTHC.

See you here for a long, long summer.

I've been in a bit of a funk the past few days (had a bad day at work Friday followed by a really, really bad night - like everyone else on here), but reading this post proves that keeping a positive outlook and perspective goes a long way. THANK YOU!!

Looking forward to starting over next year hopefully with everyone on this year's team less Miles.

TruBlu
03-18-2012, 06:41 PM
Since venting is not allowed, I have been searching for something positive to say:

Our cheerleaders were better looking than theirs.

zack2014
03-18-2012, 08:57 PM
Since venting is not allowed, I have been searching for something positive to say:

Our cheerleaders were better looking than theirs.

Haha. Im glad Im not the only one to notice this. At one point in the game they zoomed in on the Lehigh cheerleaders and my father said, "Well Lehigh sure does have some sturdy cheerleaders."

loran16
03-18-2012, 10:09 PM
McCollum is 5-18 right now against Xavier. Many open shots too. Guess its hard to channel your best game against Xavier, but its easy against Duke. Sigh.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:21 PM
McCollum is 5-18 right now against Xavier. Many open shots too. Guess its hard to channel your best game against Xavier, but its easy against Duke. Sigh.

Pretty much.

Remember what Derek Williams did the game after he played us?

5-13, 1-6 from 3 for 20 points.

Against Duke?

11-17, 5-6 from 3 for 32 points.

Sigh.

_Gary
03-18-2012, 10:27 PM
McCollum is 5-18 right now against Xavier. Many open shots too. Guess its hard to channel your best game against Xavier, but its easy against Duke. Sigh.

Isn't the answer obvious? Xavier is clearly a much better team than Duke. :rolleyes:

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:29 PM
Isn't the answer obvious? Xavier is clearly a much better team than Duke. :rolleyes:

Honestly I think Xavier would have beaten Duke, too.

I think that Duke's road as a 2 seed was a nightmare. Lehigh was better than a 15 and Xavier is capable of being as good as a 3.

Newton_14
03-18-2012, 10:49 PM
Honestly I think Xavier would have beaten Duke, too.

I think that Duke's road as a 2 seed was a nightmare. Lehigh was better than a 15 and Xavier is capable of being as good as a 3.

The bigger issue was the fact, that without Kelly, Duke was just not a 2 Seed. If Kelly stays injury free, Duke likely plays UNC a 3rd time in the ACC Tourney w/o Henson and who knows who wins that game. Either way, with a fully healthy Kelly, Duke wins the game against Lehigh. With a healthy Kelly, Duke was a true 2 Seed, w/o him probably a 5 or even a 6 to be honest.

Should have beaten Lehigh anyway, but it really was a bad matchup for a Kelly-less Duke team. Throw in a continuation of a horrible shooting slump for Duke's remaining best shooters, and you get the nightmare.

Be thankful, that unlike some of us, you did not have to endure that loss surrounded by thousands of obnoxious, rude, vulgar, and obscene UNC fans. I hate the pod system. I do not think it affects the Duke players at all, but it ruins the experience for the Duke fans, as win or lose, the UNC fans there are horrible.

FerryFor50
03-18-2012, 10:52 PM
The bigger issue was the fact, that without Kelly, Duke was just not a 2 Seed. If Kelly stays injury free, Duke likely plays UNC a 3rd time in the ACC Tourney w/o Henson and who knows who wins that game. Either way, with a fully healthy Kelly, Duke wins the game against Lehigh. With a healthy Kelly, Duke was a true 2 Seed, w/o him probably a 5 or even a 6 to be honest.

Should have beaten Lehigh anyway, but it really was a bad matchup for a Kelly-less Duke team. Throw in a continuation of a horrible shooting slump for Duke's remaining best shooters, and you get the nightmare.

Be thankful, that unlike some of us, you did not have to endure that loss surrounded by thousands of obnoxious, rude, vulgar, and obscene UNC fans. I hate the pod system. I do not think it affects the Duke players at all, but it ruins the experience for the Duke fans, as win or lose, the UNC fans there are horrible.

Yea glad I didn't waste my time or money on that. It wouldn't have been enjoyable even with a win.

Kelly being healthy would have definitely guaranteed a win against Lehigh, but I still think Xavier would have beaten them. My hope was that Duke was able to play Notre Dame, who they match up better with, fearing a matchup with Xavier. I was also cautiously approaching Lehigh, knowing they had McCollum and how Duke always seems to get the best effort out of these scorers.