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View Full Version : When, if ever, has an ACC team beat Duke and Carolina twice in the same season?



oreorudy
03-13-2012, 07:24 PM
Does anyone know the answer? My guess would be NC State when David Thompson and Monte Towe played there. Seems as if FSU has done something pretty unusual.

Duvall
03-13-2012, 07:34 PM
Does anyone know the answer? My guess would be NC State when David Thompson and Monte Towe played there. Seems as if FSU has done something pretty unusual.

Wake Forest managed it in 1995 (with five wins, actually). But yes, State must have done it in 1973, at least.

MChambers
03-13-2012, 07:34 PM
Does anyone know the answer? My guess would be NC State when David Thompson and Monte Towe played there. Seems as if FSU has done something pretty unusual.

At least according to ESPN radio. There were a handful of times.

Harder to do now, with the unbalanced schedules.

jimsumner
03-13-2012, 09:36 PM
A related question is the last team to beat both in the ACC Tournament. I'm thinking Wake in 1995.

1 24 90
03-13-2012, 09:39 PM
I think the question is if a team has 2 victories over Duke and 2 victories over UNC in the same season. One of the bracket shows mentioned that Georgia Tech did it in 1996 and maybe the late 80s. Wake was one and I think there was one back in the 70s. IIIRC there were 5 teams over the years that have pulled this off.

Reilly
03-13-2012, 09:48 PM
A related question is the last team to beat both in the ACC Tournament. I'm thinking Wake in 1995.

Four times in the last 25 years for an ACC tournament champ to have beaten both Duke and UNC .... only looked at champs ... and only looked at 25 years for now ...

87 State, 93 GT, 95 WFU, 2012 FSU

Duvall
03-13-2012, 09:50 PM
I think the question is if a team has 2 victories over Duke and 2 victories over UNC in the same season. One of the bracket shows mentioned that Georgia Tech did it in 1996 and maybe the late 80s. Wake was one and I think there was one back in the 70s. IIIRC there were 5 teams over the years that have pulled this off.

NCSU 1973 (4-0)
NCSU 1974 (4-0)
WFU 1995 (5-1)
GT 1996 (4-0)
FSU 2012 (4-1)

Any others?

The list makes FSU's feat look all the more impressive - in the other years either Duke or UNC (okay, Duke) was somewhat or completely down, but FSU managed four wins against UNC and Duke teams that topped the league standings.

COYS
03-13-2012, 11:46 PM
NCSU 1973 (4-0)
NCSU 1974 (4-0)
WFU 1995 (5-1)
GT 1996 (4-0)
FSU 2012 (4-1)

Any others?

The list makes FSU's feat look all the more impressive - in the other years either Duke or UNC (okay, Duke) was somewhat or completely down, but FSU managed four wins against UNC and Duke teams that topped the league standings.

That's a good point. Both teams were top 10 teams in every game that FSU played them. Has THAT been done?

blazindw
03-14-2012, 12:00 AM
Didn't the '83 NC State team complete the feat as well?

gus
03-14-2012, 12:59 AM
Didn't the '83 NC State team complete the feat as well?

Yes - 4-1. (2-1 UNC, 2-0 Duke). Duvall's comment applies.

dball
03-14-2012, 02:07 AM
Does anyone know the answer? My guess would be NC State when David Thompson and Monte Towe played there. Seems as if FSU has done something pretty unusual.

USC (South Carolina) did it a couple of times (68 and 70)

NC State has done it a number of times though, of course, there used to be more opportunities for the teams to play (Big Four, balanced regular season, maybe ACC Tournament).

Pretty sure that all original ACC members have done it with the exception of Clemson (They have a problem with the second win in Chapel Hill as is well documented). Think the Tigers did take the Tarheels twice in the 60s but they didn't fare that well against the Bubas Duke Squad that year.

Scorp4me
03-14-2012, 10:03 AM
Didn't see it yet so I want to know if anyone has ever gone 6-0? Beaten both Duke and Carolina both times in the regular season...and then had to face both in the tournament and came out on top.

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-14-2012, 10:14 AM
My variation on the question would be in the context of the Dixie Classic and Big Four tournaments: what was the maximum number of times any school beat both Duke and Carolina in the same season?

dball
03-14-2012, 10:27 AM
Didn't see it yet so I want to know if anyone has ever gone 6-0? Beaten both Duke and Carolina both times in the regular season...and then had to face both in the tournament and came out on top.

Don't believe that's ever happened. Few teams have ever beaten UNC-CH 3 times in a season. State did it back to back when DT, the ACC's greatest player of all time, was with them. Wake did it in the 60s and Duke has done it a few times :).

Olympic Fan
03-14-2012, 10:50 AM
As noted, NC State has done it five times.

In 1973 and 1974, State was 5-0 (not 4-0) against its rivals -- adding a win over UNC in the Big Four Tournament to its regular season sweep.

Let's go back to the start of the ACC when State was the superpower:

1955: 5-1 (3-0 vs. Duke and 2-1 vs. UNC)
1956: 5-1 (3-0 vs. Duke and 2-1 against UNC)

Both Duke and Carolina were very good in those years -- Duke was in the second 10 in the AP poll for all three meetings in '55 and was No. 11 for all three in 1956; UNC was not ranked in '55, but spent most of the '56 season in the top 10.

1983: 4-1 (2-1 vs. UNC and 2-0 vs. Duke)

In addition to 1996, Georgia Tech did it in 1985, going 4-2 (2-1 vs. Duke, 2-1 vs. UNC).

That one might be the closest to what FSU did because both Duke and UNC were top 10 teams in 1985. Duke was No. 5 when it lost its first game to Tech, No. 6 when it won in Durham and No. 7 when it lost to Tech in the ACC Tournament in Atlanta ...UNC was No. 8 when they lost to Tech in the regular season, No. 13 when they beat Tech, but No. 6 when they lost to Tech in the ACC Tournament finals.

And like FSU, Georgia Tech beat top 10 Duke and UNC teams in the semifinals and finals of the ACC Tournament.

dball
03-14-2012, 10:59 AM
My variation on the question would be in the context of the Dixie Classic and Big Four tournaments: what was the maximum number of times any school beat both Duke and Carolina in the same season?

Maximum number then (as now) that it was theoretically possible to beat one school was four, but it hasn't happened yet. State probably has the record as they have 5 wins combined against the two schools a couple of times. Only Wake or NC State would have had the opportunity for maximum wins under the variation you site.



UNC-CH beat Wake 4 times in their undefeated year (1957). Think State also beat Wake 4 times in a year and Virginia lost to Maryland 4 times (thanks to a preseason tournament) in the 50s.

dball
03-14-2012, 11:13 AM
In addition to 1996, Georgia Tech did it in 1985, going 4-2 (2-1 vs. Duke, 2-1 vs. UNC).

That one might be the closest to what FSU did because both Duke and UNC were top 10 teams in 1985.

Don't believe UNC beat Tech that year. GT was 3-0 against Carolina and 2-1 against Duke. Really impressive with some of the most likeable Tech players (Price and Salley).

Fletch
03-14-2012, 01:10 PM
Don't believe UNC beat Tech that year. GT was 3-0 against Carolina and 2-1 against Duke. Really impressive with some of the most likeable Tech players (Price and Salley).

Yes, GT was 3-0 vs UNC-CH & 2-1 vs Duke in 1985.

BTW, ACC basketball was very good that season, as someone noted earlier. UNC, GT & State finished tied for first place with 9-5 records while UNC, GT & Duke spent most of the season in the top 10 of the AP poll. UNC & GT were #2 seeds in the NCAA's; Duke and State were 3 seeds & Maryland was a 5 seed. Then UNC, GT and State all made it to the Elite Eight. Overall a great season for ACC basketball.

luvdahops
03-14-2012, 01:29 PM
Yes, GT was 3-0 vs UNC-CH & 2-1 vs Duke in 1985.

BTW, ACC basketball was very good that season, as someone noted earlier. UNC, GT & State finished tied for first place with 9-5 records while UNC, GT & Duke spent most of the season in the top 10 of the AP poll. UNC & GT were #2 seeds in the NCAA's; Duke and State were 3 seeds & Maryland was a 5 seed. Then UNC, GT and State all made it to the Elite Eight. Overall a great season for ACC basketball.

Was a great year for the conference, but was unfortunately overshadowed by the Big East putting 3 teams in the Final Four - defending champ Georgetown in Ewing's senior year, season-long challenger St. John's (featuring Chris Mullin and Walter Berry, along with soph Mark Jackson as a key sub) and upset for the ages winner Villanova (led by Ed Pinkney).

Duke lost to UNC at Cameron in the regular season finale to finish a game out of 1st, after beating the Heels earlier in Chapel Hill. The battles with Georgia Tech in that era were always very intense. They got the better of us in '85 but we took 2 out of 3 the following season on our way to the ACC regular season and tourney titles, and of course the National Championship game against Louisville.

Olympic Fan
03-14-2012, 02:22 PM
The battles with Georgia Tech in that era were always very intense. They got the better of us in '85 but we took 2 out of 3 the following season on our way to the ACC regular season and tourney titles, and of course the National Championship game against Louisville.

You are absolutely right about the Duke-Georgia Tech rivalry. That was really our most intense rivalry -- UNC was just too good for us in those early years of K's regime ... even Valvano inherited a lot more from Sloan (four young players who would start on his '83 national title team) than K did from Foster (two great seniors, a very good junior and little else).

No, in those early years of the '80s, it was K and Cremins fighting to build their programs and they were on almost the same track. In '82, Duke was 4-10, 10-17 and Tech was 3-11, 10-16. Both teams had one great player (Vince Taylor at Duke, Brook Steppe at GT) and nothing else. A year later, both coaches brought in great recruiting classes -- Dawkins and Alarue at Duke; Mark Price and John Salley at GT. But neither team was any good with freshmn playing key roles -- Duke was 3-11 11-17; Tech was 4-10 13-15. Also a great battle for rookie of the year with Price edging Dawkins ... both were second-team All-ACC with Price getting a few more votes.

Both teams took off in 1984 -- Duke adding Amaker; Tech adding Bruce Dalrymple. Duke was 7-7 24-10 and reached the ACC Tournament finals and got an NCAA bid ... Tech was 6-8 18-1 and missed the tournament. But in 1985, Tech did a little btter -- 9-5 and tied for the regular season title, 27-8 and ACC champs. Duke was 8-6 and 23-8. Tech made it all the way to the East Regional title game before losing to No. 1 Georgetown.

That's why Tech started the 1986 season at No. 1 in the polls ... Duke was No. 6. But that's the year K finally took the lead over Cremins (ACC champs and 37-3 overall) and even though Cremins had some more great successes (a Final Four and two ACC ttiles) ahead, he never caught up.

Duke Tech games were extremely intense through that era -- when they met for the 1986 ACC title, K and Cremins were 6-6 head to head. But Cremins won three of the next four to go out ahead. It wasn't until K won 8 of 9 between 1989-92 that he built a nice lead over Cremins.

jv001
03-14-2012, 02:47 PM
You are absolutely right about the Duke-Georgia Tech rivalry. That was really our most intense rivalry -- UNC was just too good for us in those early years of K's regime ... even Valvano inherited a lot more from Sloan (four young players who would start on his '83 national title team) than K did from Foster (two great seniors, a very good junior and little else).

No, in those early years of the '80s, it was K and Cremins fighting to build their programs and they were on almost the same track. In '82, Duke was 4-10, 10-17 and Tech was 3-11, 10-16. Both teams had one great player (Vince Taylor at Duke, Brook Steppe at GT) and nothing else. A year later, both coaches brought in great recruiting classes -- Dawkins and Alarue at Duke; Mark Price and John Salley at GT. But neither team was any good with freshmn playing key roles -- Duke was 3-11 11-17; Tech was 4-10 13-15. Also a great battle for rookie of the year with Price edging Dawkins ... both were second-team All-ACC with Price getting a few more votes.

Both teams took off in 1984 -- Duke adding Amaker; Tech adding Bruce Dalrymple. Duke was 7-7 24-10 and reached the ACC Tournament finals and got an NCAA bid ... Tech was 6-8 18-1 and missed the tournament. But in 1985, Tech did a little btter -- 9-5 and tied for the regular season title, 27-8 and ACC champs. Duke was 8-6 and 23-8. Tech made it all the way to the East Regional title game before losing to No. 1 Georgetown.

That's why Tech started the 1986 season at No. 1 in the polls ... Duke was No. 6. But that's the year K finally took the lead over Cremins (ACC champs and 37-3 overall) and even though Cremins had some more great successes (a Final Four and two ACC ttiles) ahead, he never caught up.

Duke Tech games were extremely intense through that era -- when they met for the 1986 ACC title, K and Cremins were 6-6 head to head. But Cremins won three of the next four to go out ahead. It wasn't until K won 8 of 9 between 1989-92 that he built a nice lead over Cremins.

Thanks for those memories of Duke and GT. Both teams rose from the ashes to some lofty heights in college basketball. Coach K, Jimmy V. and Bobby Cremins formed a friendship that lasted over the years. GoDuke!