Ryan Kelly Foot Vigil

[1999ballboy]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205392984&DB_OEM_ID=4200 (From goduke.com)

This is a really tough break, and I feel awful for Ryan. He's a hungry player and I know that not being able to play has to frustrate him coming off the UNC loss.

Interesting to see how we'll cope. Tough guy to lose.

[JasonEvans]

There are numerous reports that Ryan sprained his foot in practice today and will miss the ACC Tourney.

-Jason "yikes!" Evans

Edit: Props to 1999ballboy, who beat me with this news. Threads merged.

[Bluedog]

Darn. That really hurts us. I hope Hairston is ready to play! (And that Ryan is ready for the NCAA tournament as we'll need him.)

[OldPhiKap]

Wow, that would be tough. Hope everything is okay by this time next week, inf not earlier.

[JasonEvans]

Should we be fortunate enough to reach the ACC finals, it would be 3 games in 3 days... which is a lot to ask any kid to play. Duke will need to use its bench early and often in the tourney. I hope Hairston gets some burn but also expect us to go with Gbinije or even Dawkins at the "4" at times -- which would essentially be 4 wing guys surrounding one big fella. K has used lineups like that before and I expect he will again.

FSU or Miami, should we face them in the semis, would be the real test as they both have good sets of big men. Carolina, perhaps in the finals, has decent big men too ;)

-Jason "now, lets wrap the rest of the team in bubble wrap for the next few days, ok?" Evans

[jv001]

There have been some that wanted some of or all of Ryan's minutes to go to Andre and Michael G. Well that may now happen. I hate this for Ryan and for the team. This year we have not been too concerned with foul trouble to our front line. That may now change. With Miles and Mason both in the starting rotation there is less room for error. They may not be able to play with fear of getting into foul trouble and lose some of their aggressiveness. Let's hope Josh steps up and provides the minutes we need. GoDuke!

[DukeGirl4ever]

I hate for this for Ryan and the team.
I've always had a formula that I feel you need to win a championship...staying healthy is obviously one of them.

I hope Ryan gets to rest and two weeks give him enough time to get back to normal!

[gep]

Silver lining time :cool: Maybe this will be 2001 all over again... with Coach K "re-tooling" the team. Maybe this gives Ryan much needed rest and be ready for the NCAAT... or even the ACCT?

[Duvall]

Silver lining time :cool: Maybe this will be 2001 all over again... with Coach K "re-tooling" the team. Maybe this gives Ryan much needed rest and be ready for the NCAAT... or even the ACCT?

Maybe. But that "re-evaluated on Monday" seems awfully convenient.

[jipops]

This rather dramatically changes the makeup offensively. He's our stretch 4 and it's a role that can't really be replaced. The offense is going to have to change a good bit. Hopefully we can get a couple wins this weekend.

[Lord Ash]

Wow, that is HUGE. Hope Josh is sufficiently recovered from his concussion and that Silent G makes use of his time!

Hope Ryan is doing better for the NCAAs!

[JNort]

So Josh is going to see a boost in mins but I wonder if Silent will see more time as well? 3 games in 3 days should mean more bench players especially with Kelly down. Also how does this affect our ability to stretch the floor? One more thing of note is maybe this helps defensively a bit with Miles and Mason playing more.

Thoughts?

[arnie]

So Josh is going to see a boost in mins but I wonder if Silent will see more time as well? 3 games in 3 days should mean more bench players especially with Kelly down. Also how does this affect our ability to stretch the floor? One more thing of note is maybe this helps defensively a bit with Miles and Mason playing more.

Thoughts?

I think this is good for us - G and Hairston should get minutes for extended periods of time when it counts. Assuming Kelly comes back for the NCAAs, we could be stronger.

[JNort]

I think this is good for us - G and Hairston should get minutes for extended periods of time when it counts. Assuming Kelly comes back for the NCAAs, we could be stronger.

Offensively I think it hurts us pretty bad but because Josh and G have not shown much on the offensive side, nothing to be concerned over since he should be back for the NCAAT. Defensively however I am not sure.... Kelly has better size at the 4 but he has been pretty bad at guarding 4's all year and attempts to draw waaayyy too many charges. G would (in theory) give us more speed and lateral quickness (which we have lacked all year) but he is really raw right now especially on offense. Josh has not shown a lot on offense except a decent mid range shot from time to time and he has a hard time on defense but he is like Tyler in that he provides great energy and hustle and is a pest on D.

[rtnorthrup]

It's over.

[CameronBornAndBred]

It's over.

Are you serious?
It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, and it wasn't over when Boozer busted up his foot.
Get ready to see lots of Miles this weekend, and for a few others to grab their opportunity, ala Casey Sanders.

[J4Kop99]

Sad news to hear. Hopefully coach and the rest of the team can figure this out as quickly as possible. Kelly is an integral part of this team so someone (or a couple guys) are really going to have to elevate their play.

I look forward to seeing what Coach will come up with.

[#1Duke]

That's bad news. I like Kelly and when he plays aggressively he's a very good player.... he can really stretch the court it's a hard hit.

[BleedsP287]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor? I need to get out more.

[JNort]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor? I need to get out more.

My thoughts as well...

[kmspeaks]

Are you serious?
It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, and it wasn't over when Boozer busted up his foot.
Get ready to see lots of Miles this weekend, and for a few others to grab their opportunity, ala Casey Sanders.

Not sure if you're joking or if rtnorthrup knows what he posted (though I assume (s)he does).

From a post by Jumbo in 2008 explaining the DBR "It's Over" inside joke:

"This, of course, was a reference to one of the most famous threads in DBR lore. Following the 2001 game at Cameron against Maryland, when Carlos Boozer broke his foot, one poster started a thread entitled "It's Over." Indeed, it was -- for everyone else. Duke won its last 10 games (including the national title) and Boozer returned during the NCAA Tourney. I'm pleased to announced that I have it on good authority that the infamous poster will be gracing us with his presence in this very thread!"

Ryan's injury adds another interesting twist to this team's journey. Hope he gets all healed up in time for the NCAAT

[roywhite]

What's a Duke basketball season without a foot injury?

Actually, this has been a pretty good year for the players staying healthy. Best wishes, Ryan; you still have some big games ahead this season.

[#1Duke]

Their/They're and now the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...... seeeesh!!

[roywhite]

Do we have a group of fans with no knowledge of quotes from the movie Animal House (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes)?


Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: [to Boon] Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...

[CameronBornAndBred]

Not sure if you're joking or if rtnorthrup knows what he posted (though I assume (s)he does).

From a post by Jumbo in 2008 explaining the DBR "It's Over" inside joke:

"This, of course, was a reference to one of the most famous threads in DBR lore. Following the 2001 game at Cameron against Maryland, when Carlos Boozer broke his foot, one poster started a thread entitled "It's Over." Indeed, it was -- for everyone else. Duke won its last 10 games (including the national title) and Boozer returned during the NCAA Tourney. I'm pleased to announced that I have it on good authority that the infamous poster will be gracing us with his presence in this very thread!"

Ryan's injury adds another interesting twist to this team's journey. Hope he gets all healed up in time for the NCAAT

Sporks to you. I must claim ignorance, I didn't know about that thread...too funny. Can we hobble our way to another championship game? I'm gonna channel my inner Ozzie and say yes. Maybe a little injury is just what the doctor ordered for this team to further find its way.

[Devilsfan]

Plumlees wil have to and will step up. Win two games and we will meet the ACC equivalent of the very evil empire.

[jv001]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor? I need to get out more.

Well it wasn't in 1965-1966 because I was in Hawaii and I think I would have known if they had bombed us. GoDuke!

[Olympic Fan]

Do we have a group of fans with no knowledge of quotes from the movie Animal House (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes)?

For the reference, the greatest inspirational speech of all times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

Obviously, losing Kelly means the Plumlees have to play every possible minute. It also means we need a big boost from Josh.

I also suspect we may see some four guard sets with Andre playing 4. Maybe he will rise to the challenge.

"Nothing is over until WE say it is over!"

"Zeller .. dead man, Snaer .. dead man, Calvin Leslie ... dead man ...

[Kedsy]

I hope Hairston gets some burn but also expect us to go with Gbinije or even Dawkins at the "4" at times -- which would essentially be 4 wing guys surrounding one big fella. K has used lineups like that before and I expect he will again.

Interesting. If we played a lineup of Quinn, Seth, Austin, Andre, and Mason, how would anybody guard us? And, yeah, how would we guard anybody else, but defensively would it really be sooooo much worse than it is now? I could see 35 to 40 three ball attempts per game and us winning a bunch of 92-84 games.

[burnspbesq]

Interesting. If we played a lineup of Quinn, Seth, Austin, Andre, and Mason, how would anybody guard us? And, yeah, how would we guard anybody else, but defensively would it really be sooooo much worse than it is now? I could see 35 to 40 three ball attempts per game and us winning a bunch of 92-84 games.

Scary. I'm envisioning a second-round box-score line something like "Second-chance points: Gonzaga 34, Duke 6."

[Kedsy]

Scary. I'm envisioning a second-round box-score line something like "Second-chance points: Gonzaga 34, Duke 6."

As long as the final score is something like Duke 96 Gonzaga 89, I'm OK with that.

[Spencer's Daddy]

Do we have a group of fans with no knowledge of quotes from the movie Animal House (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes)?

That's because this movie is now only shown on Turner Classic Movies--it's a golden oldie!

[Devilsfan]

"Seven years of college down the drain."

[Devilsfan]

Team from the arc to the basket hopefully in Atlanta, "damn glad to meet you."

[SCMatt33]

First and foremost, I add my best wishes to Ryan and hope for his speedy recovery.

As there the team, there could possibly be a seeding impact for the NCAAT since there will be no word until Monday on his status. The first game for Duke will be very important. If they lose in the quarters to a bad team, there could definitely be a significant impact without definite word on his status. Even if they lost in the semis to a team like FSU or Miami, it could still have a small impact. It's hard to tell with so little to go on without him. The best analogy I can find from the recent past is Arinze Onuaku from Syracuse in 2010. His quad injury in the Big East quarters in which Cuse ultimately lost to Georgetown was a significant part of the committee's thinking in sending them out west as #4 overall and giving Duke the south as #3 overall, and the rest is history. Georgetown was ranked #22 at the time, but their run to the Big East finals led them to a 3 seed, so losing to a team like FSU in semis would be somewhere in the neighborhood. Onuwaku was 4th in scoring at 10.5 ppg, and 4th in rebounding at 5.1 rpg. Kelly is 3rd on the team in both scoring (11.8 ppg) and rebounding (5.4 rpg). Both guys were part of teams that didn't go much deeper than 7 guys against quality opponents. Most importantly, both were injured after the end of the regular season and their status for the tourney will be unknown on Selection Sunday.

Ultimately I can't see the committee dropping Duke down a seed line unless they lose to Clemson or Va Tech, in which case it could depend on a number of things including how other teams play. Remember, these waters are further muddled by Brandon Dawson's ACL tear, so Michigan State will have a close eye on their BIG tourney performance.

Of Course, the easiest way to take this out of the committee's hands is to just keep winning a la Notre Dame when they lost Harangody.

Get well soon, Ryan.

[ChicagoHeel]

That's because this movie is now only shown on Turner Classic Movies--it's a golden oldie!

Wow. I can't believe an obvious Animal House reference was missed like that. I suddenly feel old. Anyway, sorry about Kelly. Glad it's only for the ACC.

[AsiaMinor]

Hope all is well with Ryan. This is an additional challenge for the team, and I hope to be here when they cut down the nets to say, "yes, they rose to the challenge."

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Greg Marmalard (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0202318/): You're talking about Delta, sir.
Dean Vernon Wormer (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006893/): Of course I'm talking about Delta, you TWERP!
Greg Marmalard went to Maryland? :p

[DukeWarhead]

Wow. I can't believe an obvious Animal House reference was missed like that. I suddenly feel old. Anyway, sorry about Kelly. Glad it's only for the ACC.

Ryan - heal thy foot with a quickness, bro.

"My advice to you - is to start drinking heavily."

[moonpie23]

heal up oh bearded one.......come back soon...

[Dukehky]

With this injury, Gottlieb has just put Duke on double secret probation.

[dukelifer]

With this injury, Gottlieb has just put Duke on double secret probation.

Did Gottlieb make us now less unathletic as a result?

[Newton_14]

Well, this changes things for the upcoming "Devil Went Down to Georgia, Looking For Some Gold To Steal" tourney. K has some choices to make. In 2001 when my former namesake Boozer went down, the whole world assumed K would just plug Casey Sanders into Boozer's spot and keep the same style of play. Most assumed that would lead to a loss in the finale at UNC, one win in the ACC tourney before losing, and then one or two wins in the Big Dance, before bowing out.
Instead he pulled off in my opinion the greatest coaching job of all time (sorry 1966 Texas Western) by inserting Duhon and Sanders into the starting line up, moving 5th Year Sr Nate James to the 6th Man role, assigning Sanders as Shane Battier's "Dance Partner", and installing a run and gun style offense. Casey did nothing on offense except set perimeter ball screens for Shane, who destroyed teams with the 3 Ball, and mid-range jumpers. K also posted Shane up on the block at times. Duhon, Jason, Dunleavy, and Nate manned the perimeter in a spread offense, and bombed 3's.

Not saying history will repeat here or anything, but I am real interested to see what K does here. The history lesson above is not meant as a prediction of how the rest of the season plays out, but rather evidence, that K will not just plug Hairston into Ryan's spot in the rotation and play the exact same way. Just like no one on the 2001 team had Boozer's skillset, no other player on this team has Ryan's skillset.

So will K start just one Plumlee and sub the other out to keep them both fresh? Doing so would mean Hairston, or Andre would start at the 4 spot. If he does that, he likely will go to a 1 in 4 out offense, keeping the floor spread at all times. If Andre or Silent G is at the 4 with a Plumlee in the middle and any of the 3 guards on the perimeter, we suddenly become a much quicker team, with 4 really good shooters around a Plum, all with 3 point range. Seth, Austin, and Quinn would all have extra space to attack off the bounce, and Silent G is a good slasher with great leaping ability. Think backdoor cuts from the baseline off feeds from a guard or Mason. If Josh is at the 4, you can still spread the floor as Josh has the ability to knockdown the 15-18 foot jumper.

On defense, it puts them undersized of course, but quicker. K could use pressing scheme's more, and aggressive man to man to try to force more turnovers. The guards would all have to crash the boards though, and boxing out would have to be a point of emphasis.

If K goes with both Plumlee's as starters, with pretty much the same approach as all season, it is very high risk. They get much less rest than normal, and foul trouble becomes a huge concern as well. 3 games in 3 days is tougher on the big guys than the guards. If Duke made it to Sunday, not sure how much gas MP1 and MP2 would have left in the tank.

No matter how K chooses to play this, I think Gbinije has to be in the rotation. Not sure how many minutes that will lead to, but he will have to play some. The other thing is Andre. He too, will have to play much more than he did against Wake and UNC for example. I just can't see Andre getting only 11 minutes in ever how many games we end up playing without Ryan. If Josh is still hindered by the concussion, it means these two kids have to see the floor even more. I really hope Josh is back to 100%, but either way, Andre and Gbinije need to lace-em up tight and be ready to go.

I hate it for Ryan, and hope he does not have to miss any NCAA games. These guys work their tails off all year to play in March. Would be a shame if Ryan misses out on March Madness in his Junior year. Best wishes on a quick recovery!

[UrinalCake]

I think josh can come the closest to approximating Ryan's role. He can still stretch the defense if he can knock down some 15-foot jumpers, which we've seen him do. And if we do make it to the final, perhaps the silver lining is that ryan hasn't played very well against unc, and maybe a different look could throw them off.

[Buckeye Devil]

I am not sure that the result of the ACCT is going to have much bearing on the NCAAT seed unless there would be a miracle ACC Championship which would mean a #1 seed. Duke will be a 2 seed otherwise regardless of what happens in the ACCT. This could be a very good thing in the long run providing that Ryan makes it back for the NCAAT without problem.

[dukelifer]

Well, this changes things for the upcoming "Devil Went Down to Georgia, Looking For Some Gold To Steal" tourney. K has some choices to make. In 2001 when my former namesake Boozer went down, the whole world assumed K would just plug Casey Sanders into Boozer's spot and keep the same style of play. Most assumed that would lead to a loss in the finale at UNC, one win in the ACC tourney before losing, and then one or two wins in the Big Dance, before bowing out.
Instead he pulled off in my opinion the greatest coaching job of all time (sorry 1966 Texas Western) by inserting Duhon and Sanders into the starting line up, moving 5th Year Sr Nate James to the 6th Man role, assigning Sanders as Shane Battier's "Dance Partner", and installing a run and gun style offense. Casey did nothing on offense except set perimeter ball screens for Shane, who destroyed teams with the 3 Ball, and mid-range jumpers. K also posted Shane up on the block at times. Duhon, Jason, Dunleavy, and Nate manned the perimeter in a spread offense, and bombed 3's.

Not saying history will repeat here or anything, but I am real interested to see what K does here. The history lesson above is not meant as a prediction of how the rest of the season plays out, but rather evidence, that K will not just plug Hairston into Ryan's spot in the rotation and play the exact same way. Just like no one on the 2001 team had Boozer's skillset, no other player on this team has Ryan's skillset.

So will K start just one Plumlee and sub the other out to keep them both fresh? Doing so would mean Hairston, or Andre would start at the 4 spot. If he does that, he likely will go to a 1 in 4 out offense, keeping the floor spread at all times. If Andre or Silent G is at the 4 with a Plumlee in the middle and any of the 3 guards on the perimeter, we suddenly become a much quicker team, with 4 really good shooters around a Plum, all with 3 point range. Seth, Austin, and Quinn would all have extra space to attack off the bounce, and Silent G is a good slasher with great leaping ability. Think backdoor cuts from the baseline off feeds from a guard or Mason. If Josh is at the 4, you can still spread the floor as Josh has the ability to knockdown the 15-18 foot jumper.

On defense, it puts them undersized of course, but quicker. K could use pressing scheme's more, and aggressive man to man to try to force more turnovers. The guards would all have to crash the boards though, and boxing out would have to be a point of emphasis.

If K goes with both Plumlee's as starters, with pretty much the same approach as all season, it is very high risk. They get much less rest than normal, and foul trouble becomes a huge concern as well. 3 games in 3 days is tougher on the big guys than the guards. If Duke made it to Sunday, not sure how much gas MP1 and MP2 would have left in the tank.

No matter how K chooses to play this, I think Gbinije has to be in the rotation. Not sure how many minutes that will lead to, but he will have to play some. The other thing is Andre. He too, will have to play much more than he did against Wake and UNC for example. I just can't see Andre getting only 11 minutes in ever how many games we end up playing without Ryan. If Josh is still hindered by the concussion, it means these two kids have to see the floor even more. I really hope Josh is back to 100%, but either way, Andre and Gbinije need to lace-em up tight and be ready to go.

I hate it for Ryan, and hope he does not have to miss any NCAA games. These guys work their tails off all year to play in March. Would be a shame if Ryan misses out on March Madness in his Junior year. Best wishes on a quick recovery!

I agree- Andre is going to have to step up. And I think he will. He does tend to respond with pressure. He cannot get the quick pull. Gbinije will play more for sure. Will be interesting. This may take some of the pressure off this team. Not sure they can sustain for three games- but you never know.

[uh_no]

Did Gottlieb make us now less unathletic as a result?

alarmingly so.

[RockyMtDevil]

Where's Reggie Love when you need him?

[RockyMtDevil]

If K goes small, which history says he will, when Mason is in the game, it opens the floor up to allow him to show off his passing abilities. Moving Mason up the high post and clearing out the entire lane could really exploit bigger teams as Mason does an outstanding job passing from this position on the court, especially to cutters.

I agree, if we simply insert Hairston, I don't see us taking full advantage of the opportunity to leverage the injury to our highest potential, but if we go small and utilize Andre and G to spread the court and even allow Cook to push the ball, we could see a pretty exciting brand of basketball this weekend.

[UrinalCake]

Where's Reggie Love when you need him?

Don't you mean Casey sanders?

Is there ANY chance at we would consider un-redshirting Marshall, especially if it appears that Ryan will be out longer? Just throwing it out there. The only way I could see it coming into play is if we do get to Sunday and are facing the heels with a #1 seed on the line

[msdukie]

I am not sure that the result of the ACCT is going to have much bearing on the NCAAT seed unless there would be a miracle ACC Championship which would mean a #1 seed. Duke will be a 2 seed otherwise regardless of what happens in the ACCT. This could be a very good thing in the long run providing that Ryan makes it back for the NCAAT without problem.

The goal is to win the ACC Championship. As far as I am concerned, the NCAA Tournament is complete irrelevant until Sunday.

[MCFinARL]

I think this is good for us - G and Hairston should get minutes for extended periods of time when it counts. Assuming Kelly comes back for the NCAAs, we could be stronger.

Assuming the sprain is not serious and Ryan is back for the NCAA tournament, I can see where the opportunity to get G and Hairston some minutes has benefits--then they will be more ready if needed in the following week. But I don't see how it's ever "good" for a team to lose a key player.

[jimsumner]

If K goes small, which history says he will, when Mason is in the game, it opens the floor up to allow him to show off his passing abilities. Moving Mason up the high post and clearing out the entire lane could really exploit bigger teams as Mason does an outstanding job passing from this position on the court, especially to cutters.

I agree, if we simply insert Hairston, I don't see us taking full advantage of the opportunity to leverage the injury to our highest potential, but if we go small and utilize Andre and G to spread the court and even allow Cook to push the ball, we could see a pretty exciting brand of basketball this weekend.

Folks, Andre Dawkins isn't going to be playing major minutes at the 4. Gbinijie likely will get some action there, as the 4th inside option behind Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee and Josh Hairston. That quartet should be more than enough to handle 80 minutes per game at the 4/5.

[MCFinARL]

Folks, Andre Dawkins isn't going to be playing major minutes at the 4. Gbinijie likely will get some action there, as the 4th inside option behind Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee and Josh Hairston. That quartet should be more than enough to handle 80 minutes per game at the 4/5.

I agree. But isn't it possible that Andre might get more minutes anyway, just not at the 4, to make up for the loss of Ryan's outside shooting (which, UNC game notwithstanding, usually contributes a reasonable amount to the offense)?

[RockyMtDevil]

Folks, Andre Dawkins isn't going to be playing major minutes at the 4. Gbinijie likely will get some action there, as the 4th inside option behind Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee and Josh Hairston. That quartet should be more than enough to handle 80 minutes per game at the 4/5.

I don't think anyone is assuming Andre will get major minutes at the 4, but even if we go four guards for 3-5 minutes per game, it gives our bigs a rest and it allows K to force the opponent to either adjust to us, and hopefully exploit mismatches on offense while doing our best to mitigate against length and size on the other end. We've done it before, I'm not sure why it would be so out of the question to employ this strategy this weekend.

[Greg_Newton]

I don't think anyone is assuming Andre will get major minutes at the 4, but even if we go four guards for 3-5 minutes per game, it gives our bigs a rest and it allows K to force the opponent to either adjust to us, and hopefully exploit mismatches on offense while doing our best to mitigate against length and size on the other end. We've done it before, I'm not sure why it would be so out of the question to employ this strategy this weekend.

Well, for one thing, because Andre Dawkins is 6'4 and isn't a threat to drive. Really only a mismatch on one end.

We've "gone small" before, but I don't think we've ever gone 6'1-6'1-6'4-6'4 small.

[gwlaw99]

Foul trouble could be a big problem now.

[Kedsy]

We've "gone small" before, but I don't think we've ever gone 6'1-6'1-6'4-6'4 small.

Missouri goes 5'10-6'1-6'3-6'6, and they've had a pretty good year. In the right situation, I don't see why we wouldn't try it. Other than the fact that Jim Sumner says we won't, which I suppose is a fairly compelling reason.

[Dukehky]

To answer the question posted by someone above, I believe that there is 0 chance that Marshall starts playing. You don't blow a red-shirt based on an injury that keeps a player out a week. Even if Ryan is out for the NCAAs, I just can't see the coaching staff putting a completely unproven freshman in the line-up and blowing a year of eligibility for the kid. At this point, where Marshall is concerned, you have to do what is best for him, and although there is little doubt in my mind that inserting an athletic 7 footer in the line-up, even if its just for his 5 fouls would help far more than it would hurt, the coaching staff is cognizant of the damage that it could to to Marshall's future as a Duke basketball player and the program as a whole.

I'm not particularly hopeful about the ACCs because our draw, especially provided that FSU beats UVA (Sene might be back too) has a lot of post presence, but I agree with the sentiment that we have pretty much locked up a 2 seed and in my opinion, having a 2 seed in a bracket closer to home would be better than getting shipped all the way out West. Hopefully Josh steps up and plays well, but I certainly don't see him playing anywhere near the level of Ryan, or being as effective as Ryan even when he's not hitting shots, he's still a threat.

I think Dre is in for a big few games, he's played well in tournament environs, especially as a freshman, ready for Quinn to start making some shots again.

[Wander]

We've "gone small" before, but I don't think we've ever gone 6'1-6'1-6'4-6'4 small.

Agreed, and I think more to the point, the smallest Duke team I can remember had Demarcus Nelson, who was the best rebounding guard I've seen at Duke and was basically a power forward in a guard's body. Our guards are fantastic but none of them have that kind of style.

[Greg_Newton]

Missouri goes 5'10-6'1-6'3-6'6, and they've had a pretty good year. In the right situation, I don't see why we wouldn't try it. Other than the fact that Jim Sumner says we won't, which I suppose is a fairly compelling reason.

True, which is insane. The only reason that works is because they're insanely quick, though, and can pressure ballhandlers relentlessly and disrupt offenses; our squad does not seem capable of doing that at all.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Gbinije at 4, who is 6'6-6'7. It's one thing to give up 2-3" in the post, it's another to give up half a foot.


Agreed, and I think more to the point, the smallest Duke team I can remember had Demarcus Nelson, who was the best rebounding guard I've seen at Duke and was basically a power forward in a guard's body. Our guards are fantastic but none of them have that kind of style.

Not his style nor 6'10 wingspan! Throw in his 34.5" no-step vert, and he could jump 11'1" straight up, which, interestingly, is 4" better than our starting center his senior year (Kyle Singler).

[hurleyfor3]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor? I need to get out more.

September 11, 1776.

[uh_no]

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Gbinije at 4, who is 6'6-6'7. It's one thing to give up 2-3" in the post, it's another to give up half a foot.


My guess would be G and Josh filling those minutes as much as possible. We might see some 4 guard against clemson/WF....but I think carolina and FSU completely destroy us inside if we go that route. When the time comes, we play the plumtrees as much as possible and sneak minutes here and there out of g and josh.....hopefully the plumlees can take it easy on friday and be ready for the weekend

[-bdbd]

My guess would be G and Josh filling those minutes as much as possible. We might see some 4 guard against clemson/WF....but I think carolina and FSU completely destroy us inside if we go that route. When the time comes, we play the plumtrees as much as possible and sneak minutes here and there out of g and josh.....hopefully the plumlees can take it easy on friday and be ready for the weekend

Yeah. Gotta agree there. Kinda doubtful that you'd see much, if any, Silent-G or Dawkins in the post (4) against FSU or MIA or NC. But I wouldn't be shocked to see G eat some 4-spot minutes vs. maybe someone like VPI or Clemson on Fri., that's b/c I'm hoping to be up 15+ at some point Fri. night. As much as possible K - who is masterful at strategizing minutes for multi-game tournament situations - will want to keep MP1 and MP2 fresh for what will likely become a very taxing Sat and Sunday for them in Atlanta. But realistically, any way you slice it we're looking at lots of minutes this coming weekend (at least Sat and Sun.) for MP1, MP2 and Josh. And PRAY for no foul trouble among the bigs!!!

:rolleyes: :eek:

[Johnny Chill]

I thinking both Mason and Miles start, Hairston gets minutes to rest the Plumlees. If they get into foul trouble, then they will start to rotate in for one another.

Maybe Coach K, goes smaller and gets Gbinije some minutes at the 4. But I'm looking forward to seeing Hairston out there. Hopefully, he can provide some defensive energy.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Maybe a dumb question but... do we know for sure that Josh is over his concussion and ready to play again? That's not an injury to be messed with if in fact he is not 100% cleared to play again. Maybe I missed that somewhere.

[nobodybutDUKE]

Maybe a dumb question but... do we know for sure that Josh is over his concussion and ready to play again? That's not an injury to be messed with if in fact he is not 100% cleared to play again. Maybe I missed that somewhere.

Who cares. The ACC tourney means nothing. Just ask Roy.

[tbyers11]

Maybe a dumb question but... do we know for sure that Josh is over his concussion and ready to play again? That's not an injury to be messed with if in fact he is not 100% cleared to play again. Maybe I missed that somewhere.

He played briefly (a minute at the end of the first half) against UNC. If he wasn't cleared to play, I don't think he would have been out there at all.

[nocilla]

I'm not particularly hopeful about the ACCs because our draw, especially provided that FSU beats UVA (Sene might be back too) has a lot of post presence, but I agree with the sentiment that we have pretty much locked up a 2 seed and in my opinion, having a 2 seed in a bracket closer to home would be better than getting shipped all the way out West. Hopefully Josh steps up and plays well, but I certainly don't see him playing anywhere near the level of Ryan, or being as effective as Ryan even when he's not hitting shots, he's still a threat.

UVA is on the other side of the bracket. And Sene has been ruled out (http://www2.cavalierinsider.com/sports/2012/mar/05/sene-wont-be-back-season-ar-1742773/)for the rest of the season.

[wilko]

To answer the question posted by someone above, I believe that there is 0 chance that Marshall starts playing. You don't blow a red-shirt based on an injury that keeps a player out a week. Even if Ryan is out for the NCAAs, I just can't see the coaching staff putting a completely unproven freshman in the line-up and blowing a year of eligibility for the kid.
If I was going to burn anyone's redshirt, it wouldn't be MP3's. I'd ask Alex if he was ready to go. Some speculated he would have cracked the starting lineup. I get what you are saying about a "week-only" injury and ultimately, I dont think we do it in either case.... but it HAS to be tempting to at least one member of the coaching staff.


Hopefully Josh steps up and plays well, but I certainly don't see him playing anywhere near the level of Ryan, or being as effective as Ryan even when he's not hitting shots, he's still a threat.
I hope Josh and G get the job done! If there was ever a time for an Elliot Williams like breath of life from the bench G needs to bring it. I hope Josh understands his role and doesn't shoot EVERY time he touches the ball


I think Dre is in for a big few games, he's played well in tournament environs, especially as a freshman, ready for Quinn to start making some shots again.
Would love to see that as well...

[Scorp4me]

When Boozer went down everyone freaked out because Duke was such a good team with him. Now with Kelly out I see posters advocating replacing 3 of the starters (Miles, Tyler, and Kelly), burning redshirts, giving players longer leashes, playing out of their comfort zone. Why do so many seem to think this team is a team on the cusp of failure?

Look I got no problem with K doing whatever. If he wants to make major changes to retool the team then so be it. But If he wants to simply insert Hairston til Kelly gets better that's fine with me. I just think some of you are ignoring what a tremendous accomplishment this team has been and the amazing job K has already done coaching them.

[superdave]

If Kelly is only likely to be out a week and we have Michael and Josh available to play forward minutes, why would we burn MP3's redshirt?

I for one would like to see what Michael can do in a consistent 10-12 minute role.

I would also like to see us go small and run and press for a few minutes each game this weekend. I thought we should have done at least a little of that all season.

[Nepos]

When Boozer went down everyone freaked out because Duke was such a good team with him. Now with Kelly out I see posters advocating replacing 3 of the starters (Miles, Tyler, and Kelly), burning redshirts, giving players longer leashes, playing out of their comfort zone. Why do so many seem to think this team is a team on the cusp of failure?

Look I got no problem with K doing whatever. If he wants to make major changes to retool the team then so be it. But If he wants to simply insert Hairston til Kelly gets better that's fine with me. I just think some of you are ignoring what a tremendous accomplishment this team has been and the amazing job K has already done coaching them.

I agree. This team can be successful and "benefit" from this situation without any radical changes. I think the real opportunity here is that this will serve as a catalyst to focus the attention of our perimeter players on the importance of boxing out and assisting the Plumlees with rebounding and interior defensive work. If that happens, I see us doing very well this weekend with lasting benefit for the team when Kelly returns.

[wilko]

When Boozer went down everyone freaked out because Duke was such a good team with him. Now with Kelly out I see posters advocating replacing 3 of the starters (Miles, Tyler, and Kelly), burning redshirts, giving players longer leashes, playing out of their comfort zone. Why do so many seem to think this team is a team on the cusp of failure?

I want like Kelly. I really do.
But he is frustrating for me to watch. When I think hes taking a bad shot he makes it. When I think he has a great shot he misses it. He makes a lot of wrong gambles on D. He can have a stretch of 2 or 3 games where is is BRILLIANT, makes be a believer for a split second.. until he follows it up with a few poor performance. I'd really like to see more consistently brilliant from him. I cant speak for anyone else, but I wasn't thinking about it in "cusp of failure" terms... I was looking for a magic switch that would make our deficiencies disappear.


Look I got no problem with K doing whatever. If he wants to make major changes to retool the team then so be it. But If he wants to simply insert Hairston til Kelly gets better that's fine with me. I just think some of you are ignoring what a tremendous accomplishment this team has been and the amazing job K has already done coaching them.

Of course its all speculation. I dare say anyone posting here has 0 influence on these types of decisions from the coaching staff. K is going to do what he thinks best and I'm cool with it too. Its part of human nature to be curious and play the what-if game to a certain degree, and that in and of itself is not disrespecting the teams success to date.

[gumbomoop]

If Kelly is only likely to be out a week and we have Michael and Josh available to play forward minutes, why would we burn MP3's redshirt?

I for one would like to see what Michael can do in a consistent 10-12 minute role.

Amen.

One step, i.e. game, at a time. Sure, either Clemson or VT could beat us on Fri, even with Ryan, but Duke still should win, even without him. Ryan-less Duke is better, and deeper, than either Clemson or VT. If Duke loses on Friday, it will because the more talented team didn't play well enough.

Often the absence of a rotation player does in the next game or 2 result in several players stepping up to make up for it. Although I suppose it's [barely] conceivable that a Duke loss on Fri would shift Devils to a 3-seed in NCAAT, it's unlikely. No doubt K and we want passionately to win ACCT. Winning 3 straight absent a fine player will be difficult, but not impossible. It would be slightly less difficult with Ryan, but still tough.

If by chance Ryan is doubtful for first weekend of NCAAT, all the more reason to give both Josh and Michael more minutes in however many ACCT games Duke plays. And in any of our ACCT games, it's possible/probable that for foul-problem reasons alone, both Josh and Michael will get more time.

[gofurman]

information on Ryan - I know ... loose lips sink ships... but it is an ankle sprain, right? nothing more than a sprain? most 20 year old kids recover from that in a week or two. IE Barnes played with a tweaked ankle etc. The only scary kind are the "high" kind. *any information or kids see Ryan around campus? by the way, I agree, as long as Duke makes 2nd round of ACCT they should maintain a 2 seed

[Devilsfan]

Josh tries so hard. If only he we a few inches taller for the position he is needed to play.

[tele]

I thought something was amiss with Kelly already during the chapel hill game. Perhaps he was trying to go for that game but couldn't really do as much as he usually does to help the team win that game. I was surprised more by his zero free throw attempts than his 1 for 8 shooting. Maybe he was already injured? As far as how his not playing would then affect the team this weekend, look for miles to get more minutes and like the carolina game, josh and maybe mike G too.

[Bluedog]

information on Ryan - I know ... loose lips sink ships... but it is an ankle sprain, right? nothing more than a sprain? most 20 year old kids recover from that in a week or two. IE Barnes played with a tweaked ankle etc. The only scary kind are the "high" kind. *any information or kids see Ryan around campus? by the way, I agree, as long as Duke makes 2nd round of ACCT they should maintain a 2 seed

Foot sprain. Not sure if there's a difference in the prognosis between the two though. I realize the ankle is part of the foot.

[UrinalCake]

I thinking both Mason and Miles start, Hairston gets minutes to rest the Plumlees. If they get into foul trouble, then they will start to rotate in for one another.

Yeah, I think the Plumlees will both start but Hairston will come in once either of them picks up a foul, or at the first timeout. When Miles is out then Mason slides over to the 5.

It's not out of the question that Hairston could start, as he did for a couple of games during the season, but I think Coach K will go with the more experienced tandem.

[CDu]

Missouri goes 5'10-6'1-6'3-6'6, and they've had a pretty good year. In the right situation, I don't see why we wouldn't try it. Other than the fact that Jim Sumner says we won't, which I suppose is a fairly compelling reason.

Except that I don't think our group of guards is at all similar to Missouri's. The five guards/wings that they rotate somewhat interchangeably are all extremely quick, strong with the ball, and very tenacious defenders. Of our five guards, I'd say only Rivers is comparable (probably more gifted offensively) to Denmon and English. But even then, I'd say their guys are better defenders than Rivers. And they're all quicker, better offensively, and similarly tenacious defensively as Thornton. Their five are certainly better defensively than Dawkins, Curry, and Cook. Their five are just much more suited to making teams pay by playing up-tempo on both ends. Our guards aren't all that suited to such a thing. For a few minutes we could perhaps get away with it (especially if we're killing it with the 3-ball). But we don't have the horses to do that for long stretches like Missouri.

What I think is more likely is that we'll see as much of the Plumlees as possible. Coach K will hope those two can both go 30+ mpg. We'll go with Hairston as the third big and hope he can give us 15-20 mpg. And we'll go with Gbinije at the 4 as necessary to provide rest or fill minutes when the 3 bigs are in foul trouble. This approach will keep us playing the style of play that has worked for us for most of the season. If Mason can go 30mpg (he averages 28), Miles can can go 28mpg (he's averaged 26.6 over the last 7 games), and Hairston can go 18mpg (instead of about 6) then we just need about 4mpg from Gbinije. The only real problem would be if one of the Plumlees gets in very quick (or very serious) foul trouble or gets injured. In that case, we'd see more of Hairston (unless he gets in foul trouble as well - then we'd see Gbinije).

Given our defensively-challenged backcourt and the lack of boxing out those guys have done over the course of the year, I don't think he wants to have Rivers or Dawkins changing their mindset to have to work down low to box out and rebound. I think he'd be more inclined to go with Hairston and Gbinije since those guys have presumably spent more time in practice doing that. The primary examples in which we've gone smaller included the 2001 team and the 2007 and 2008 teams. But the 2007 and 2008 teams didn't actually go THAT small. The 2007 team had McRoberts for 35mpg and McClure/Thomas/Zoubek combining for over 40mpg. And our wings were Nelson, Henderson, and Scheyer. The 2008 team essentially just replaced McRoberts with Singler and Taylor King. And the 2001 team had Battier, Sanders, a 6'9" wing in Dunleavy, and a big, physical 6'6" wing in James. Those were all bigger, more physical teams than we have now.

[ncexnyc]

The top seeds will have to play 3 games in 3 days and the bottom seeds 4 games in 4 days if they want to be there come Sunday afternoon so basically everyone is in the same situation. FSU normally goes very deep into it's bench so they might have a definite advantage here.

The bottom line is you've played a whole season. Injuries happen from time to time and if you want to be considered an elite program you need to be able to overcome any obstacles that get in your way. We've got quality talent from top to bottom it's time for the kids who haven't played much to show what they've got. Time to put up or shut up.

[CDu]

The top seeds will have to play 3 games in 3 days and the bottom seeds 4 games in 4 days if they want to be there come Sunday afternoon so basically everyone is in the same situation. FSU normally goes very deep into it's bench so they might have a definite advantage here.

The bottom line is you've played a whole season. Injuries happen from time to time and if you want to be considered an elite program you need to be able to overcome any obstacles that get in your way. We've got quality talent from top to bottom it's time for the kids who haven't played much to show what they've got. Time to put up or shut up.

Agreed. We talked all offseason about how this would be the deepest team we've had in years. Well, now's the time to prove it. Hairston and Gbinije have the door open to show their mettle. If they can do it, then I don't know that we should expect a huge dropoff (with the exception of those games in which Kelly was really on from the outside).

It's a definite loss, as would be true for almost any team losing a 20+ game starter. The best teams can overcome it (like UNC has this year without Strickland). Hopefully we can do the same.

[billy]

What I think is more likely is that we'll see as much of the Plumlees as possible. Coach K will hope those two can both go 30+ mpg. We'll go with Hairston as the third big and hope he can give us 15-20 mpg. And we'll go with Gbinije at the 4 as necessary to provide rest or fill minutes when the 3 bigs are in foul trouble. This approach will keep us playing the style of play that has worked for us for most of the season. If Mason can go 30mpg (he averages 28), Miles can can go 28mpg (he's averaged 26.6 over the last 7 games), and Hairston can go 18mpg (instead of about 6) then we just need about 4mpg from Gbinije. The only real problem would be if one of the Plumlees gets in very quick (or very serious) foul trouble or gets injured. In that case, we'd see more of Hairston (unless he gets in foul trouble as well - then we'd see Gbinije).

I agree - it seems that a change in tempo (slow way down and play the bigs a lot, or, alternatively, go 4 guards and press/run a lot) is more likely than a change in the players (i.e. Alex/MP3 coming off the redshirt).

[CDu]

I agree - it seems that a change in tempo (slow way down and play the bigs a lot, or, alternatively, go 4 guards and press/run a lot) is more likely than a change in the players (i.e. Alex/MP3 coming off the redshirt).

I'd say there's virtually 0% chance we'll burn the redshirt of Murphy or Marshall just for a few minutes in the ACC tournament. So in that sense, it's true that there's a greater chance we'll slow things down or go 4 guards than than seeing Murphy/Marshall. But I don't think we're all that likely to slow way down or play 4 guards. Instead, I think we'll (to a large degree) stick with what we were already doing. Here's why:

Why not to play slow-down game: It's not like Kelly allowed us to play more (or less) up-tempo than Hairston or the Plumlees, so there's no clear reason why we'd slow down. We'll see a different look when we're in the half court with Kelly gone, as we'll now be playing nearly the whole game with two bigs who screen and roll or post guys rather than pick-and-pop or spot-up guys. But we'll still play at the same pace.

Why not to go 4 guards and press: Our small guards haven't really shown the inclination or ability to press successfully for long periods of time. Also, they aren't great at keeping other guards off the glass, let alone bigger forwards. We'd essentially be getting to a situation where we just hope to outbomb the opponent, but we'd be likely raising the degree of difficulty by increasing the opponent's efficiency (more allowed offensive rebounds leading to more points per possession).

Instead, I think we'll see the Plumlees and Hairston get increased minutes. We'll stick with the two-big lineup that we've used all season to maintain continuity of approach. The team isn't used to playing with 4 guards, and we aren't used to playing ultra-slow. They're used to playing with two bigs, and they're used to spending a fair amount of the game with two bigs who aren't 3pt shooters. Now, it'll just be virtually an entire game with two bigs who aren't 3pt shooters.

[rsvman]

Why not to play slow-down game: It's not like Kelly allowed us to play more (or less) up-tempo than Hairston or the Plumlees, so there's no clear reason why we'd slow down. ...

I can think of two reasons right off the top of my head: 1) to limit defensive possessions in order to minimize the chances that we lose one of the big guys to foul trouble, and 2) to limit the amount of running so that guys don't get as gassed playing three games in three days. There may also be a benefit in attempting to keep the final score lower when a team has lost one of its top scorers, but that's a debatable point.

[CDu]

I can think of two reasons right off the top of my head: 1) to limit defensive possessions in order to minimize the chances that we lose one of the big guys to foul trouble, and 2) to limit the amount of running so that guys don't get as gassed playing three games in three days. There may also be a benefit in attempting to keep the final score lower when a team has lost one of its top scorers, but that's a debatable point.

The counter arguments to that would be that fewer possessions give the less talented team more of a chance to win (less opportunity for the cream to rise to the crop and more chance that a few lucky possessions make a difference). And we'll still be one of the deeper teams in the tournament (only FSU is discernibly deeper in post players among upper-tier teams, and we'd be playing them on day 2 anyway). By the time we'd get to Sunday (if we're so fortunate), we'd be playing either a UNC team that's just as shallow as us but will be playing up-tempo all weekend, a UVa team that is not as deep or as good as us, or an NC State team that is less deep than us.

That being said, I think we're more likely to slow it down dramatically than play a 4-guard lineup. I'd just rate the order of likelihood as (1) status quo, (2) slow down, (3) 4-guard. If we start to run into serious foul trouble early, maybe Coach K changes the strategy to slow it down. At that point, the stakes would have changed and the benefits of status quo might not outweigh the risk of losing a big to foul trouble.

[greybeard]

I think Duke plays reasonably slow as it is. Not many fast breaks except off steals, and even then less than 50%. When Tyler runs the point, Duke often goes pretty deep in the clock. Rivers and Curry seem to have a green light, as does Dre when he is on. Will that change, and K have these guys hold off when they feel it? Let's put it this way, unless they have an open, and I mean open, look, or unless one or more of them goes nuts (Dre is the most likely), I have to think that K will not want these guys shooting early, first 15-20 seconds, in the clock. That could change in the second half, depending on score and whether Curry can get inside the lane and score (we know Rivers can).

In short, who knows? Mason and Miles might get more chances to score here folks, or not.

I hope that Ryan gets lots of PT, not just to return function to the foot, but to address shifts in the rest of him as he finishes out the season on an ankle/foot that will be functioning differently. Ryan's body has held up remarkably well, under a grueling season in which he has had to play BIG, and has done a wonderful job at it, much more than I expected he could. Real dedication to what must have been a very well thought out regimen not simply to put on muscle, but also to be able to carry and use it.

Hope he is ready to go, and that that foot does not get too much in his way.

Feet/ankles are so important to performance, yet they seem to get the least attention in rehab, perhaps because the different forces put on them and how adjustments are made to carry those powerful forces are so difficult to get a handle on. The same goes for working on the flexion in the feet pre season and during warm ups. Just flexing the foot while player is lying on his back, leg extended and held at 90 degrees from the floor in my opinion is only slightly more than nothing.

By the way, K, Phil Jackson, L Brown, P Riley all have had both hips replaced. I bet none had ever hurt even one of their hips during his playing career, or had hip pain or even discomfort. All, I'm sure had ankle, foot sprains from which they came back as soon as the pain became tolerable. Connection?

No, I don't think I'm being overly [fill in the blank] here.

Trainers, PTs, Orthopods, coaches need to press for advancements in this area, in my opinion.

[Kedsy]

Instead, I think we'll see the Plumlees and Hairston get increased minutes. We'll stick with the two-big lineup that we've used all season to maintain continuity of approach. The team isn't used to playing with 4 guards, and we aren't used to playing ultra-slow. They're used to playing with two bigs, and they're used to spending a fair amount of the game with two bigs who aren't 3pt shooters. Now, it'll just be virtually an entire game with two bigs who aren't 3pt shooters.

I addressed this in the Phase V thread, but I don't think we'll keep doing the same thing we've been doing, with Josh plugged in for Ryan. We'd be a significantly worse team that way. I think K will look at the roster and say, what would I do if this is the team I started with? And then structure something as if starting from scratch.

As I mentioned in the other thread, a possibility you haven't mentioned here is an NBA style offense. I went to a Bulls/76ers game last week, and Derrick Rose dominated the ball. Basically he either faked a drive and shot a three or drove through the entire other team for a layup attempt. Occasionally, he kicked out to a shooter. Sound familiar? One of Chicago's bigs (Noah), focused on offensive boards and cleanup off the glass -- and again we have an analog for that in Miles. The other big (Boozer) set up on the low block and got fed occasionally (this would obviously be Mason's role). The other guys (Hamilton, Deng, Brewer, Korver) more or less just stood around the perimeter and took outside shots off of Rose kickouts. We obviously have the personnel for that, too. Anyway, the offense was really boring to watch (although Rose is amazing), but the Bulls managed to beat the 76ers. Austin isn't Derrick Rose, but he's pretty much as close as you're going to get in the college game. It might be worth trying.

[ncexnyc]

We'd be a significantly worse team that way..
Do you really believe that Josh is that far down the ladder from Ryan?

Now I will concede the possibility of Josh getting into the game and picking up his third foul before the half, but maybe, just maybe he comes out cool, calm and collected, because he knows there's nobody looking of his shoulder waiting to yank him as soon as makes one mistake.

[CDu]

I addressed this in the Phase V thread, but I don't think we'll keep doing the same thing we've been doing, with Josh plugged in for Ryan. We'd be a significantly worse team that way. I think K will look at the roster and say, what would I do if this is the team I started with? And then structure something as if starting from scratch.

As I mentioned in the other thread, a possibility you haven't mentioned here is an NBA style offense. I went to a Bulls/76ers game last week, and Derrick Rose dominated the ball. Basically he either faked a drive and shot a three or drove through the entire other team for a layup attempt. Occasionally, he kicked out to a shooter. Sound familiar? One of Chicago's bigs (Noah), focused on offensive boards and cleanup off the glass -- and again we have an analog for that in Miles. The other big (Boozer) set up on the low block and got fed occasionally (this would obviously be Mason's role). The other guys (Hamilton, Deng, Brewer, Korver) more or less just stood around the perimeter and took outside shots off of Rose kickouts. We obviously have the personnel for that, too. Anyway, the offense was really boring to watch (although Rose is amazing), but the Bulls managed to beat the 76ers. Austin isn't Derrick Rose, but he's pretty much as close as you're going to get in the college game. It might be worth trying.

But what you're describing is more or less what we already do now when the Plumlees (or a Plumlee and Hairston) are in the game. So that's kind of what I meant by "status quo." Obviously we aren't going to run the same stuff that Kelly would run with a Plumlee or Hairston. But we weren't doing that anyway. Do you really think he'd overhaul the offensive approach just because we will suddenly see 10-15 mpg more from Hairston/Gbinije (note: I'm assuming that the Plumlees will take a decent chunk of Kelly's minutes so long as foul trouble doesn't intervene)? I don't think Coach K will radically change the approach, mainly because I don't think he needs to do so. We've been playing with two interior-oriented bigs for about 15mpg throughout the season already. Now, we'll just be doing it for 40mpg.

When we've seen radical changes mid/late season in the past it was because what we had was completely broken for one reason or another. In 2001, our only interior scoring presence was out. We had the versatility with Battier, Dunleavy, and James to completely change things up. But more importantly, we had to change, because it was clear that Sanders wasn't going to replace Boozer in any way. This year, we have two very capable, very experienced big men to try to take on more minutes. The team is certainly used to playing with both big men on the floor together. We lose a terrific shooter, but he was really only about 1/3 of our post presence, and we won't be lacking for capable shooters. It's just not the same situation. That's not meant in any way to discredit Kelly. He's been terrific and a very important player. But I just don't think we need to radically change our approach because of his absence. And I don't think what you're suggesting is really any sort of radically changed approach, anyway. We've run a lot of "Derrick Rose" type stuff for Rivers all season.

[superdave]

Do you really believe that Josh is that far down the ladder from Ryan?

Now I will concede the possibility of Josh getting into the game and picking up his third foul before the half, but maybe, just maybe he comes out cool, calm and collected, because he knows there's nobody looking of his shoulder waiting to yank him as soon as makes one mistake.

Kelly has scored in double figures 18 times this year. He's 3rd on the team in scoring. He's a good team defender.

Josh as a sophomore is about a year behind where Ryan was as a sophomore, in my opinion. Ryan is highly skilled whereas Josh is high energy.

[ncexnyc]

Kelly has scored in double figures 18 times this year. He's 3rd on the team in scoring. He's a good team defender.

Josh as a sophomore is about a year behind where Ryan was as a sophomore, in my opinion. Ryan is highly skilled whereas Josh is high energy.
Now normally I'm the glass is half empty guy around here, but the posts regarding Josh's abilities make me seem like Mr. Optimistic. I think we should give the staff some credit for their ability to devise a game plan which will make the most out of Josh's abilities and most of all give the young man the benefit of the doubt. Be POSITIVE!

[gep]

I think the game goes slow down, deliberate offense, with Miles, Mason, Josh told to rebound EVERYTHING. Positioning for rebounds on defense, positioning for rebounds instead of scoring on offense. Rebounding will be the KEY. We have enough scoring options, along with Miles, Mason, Josh with put-backs. Austin will also be KEY in this situation. Seth and Andre for scoring, Tyler and Quinn for ball-handling. This CAN work.

I remember in 2001, I couldn't IMAGINE how Casey Sanders and Reggie Love could even begin to replace Carlos... but with a totally different team look, they did.

[Kedsy]

Do you really believe that Josh is that far down the ladder from Ryan?

Yes, I do. Ryan is a rare offensive presence, and Josh really can't do anything that Ryan can do. It may be that CDu is correct and Josh ramps up to 20 minutes, and I'm sure he'll bring great energy and a decent midrange game to the table, but he won't replace Ryan's contributions in any meaningful way. That's just not his game.


But I just don't think we need to radically change our approach because of his absence... We've run a lot of "Derrick Rose" type stuff for Rivers all season.

We've run it on occasion. The Bulls run it every single time down the court. If we went that route, Austin would be the de facto PG, Tyler would come off the bench as an undersized defensive SG, and Quinn probably wouldn't play much at all. I would consider it a radical change.

[ACCBBallFan]

Yes, I do. Ryan is a rare offensive presence, and Josh really can't do anything that Ryan can do. It may be that CDu is correct and Josh ramps up to 20 minutes, and I'm sure he'll bring great energy and a decent midrange game to the table, but he won't replace Ryan's contributions in any meaningful way. That's just not his game.
I agree with Kedsy here. Ryan is the big that allows Duke to spread the floor so well. Not the case with 2 Plums or with Josh. He also is the in bounds guy when needed, the guy who can break the press, take a charge, etc. and so many other intangibles.

[CDu]

Yes, I do. Ryan is a rare offensive presence, and Josh really can't do anything that Ryan can do. It may be that CDu is correct and Josh ramps up to 20 minutes, and I'm sure he'll bring great energy and a decent midrange game to the table, but he won't replace Ryan's contributions in any meaningful way. That's just not his game.

I didn't say Hairston would play 20 minutes for sure. I said he'd play 15-20 minutes. That's an increase of about 8-13 minutes for him. It's a doubling of his minutes, but not an Earth-shattering change in approach. We'd still be spending most of the game without him on the floor. I agree that Hairston won't do the things that Kelly does. He'll do different things though - some (rebounding, for one) better than Kelly.


We've run it on occasion. The Bulls run it every single time down the court. If we went that route, Austin would be the de facto PG, Tyler would come off the bench as an undersized defensive SG, and Quinn probably wouldn't play much at all. I would consider it a radical change.

First, that's simply not an accurate description of the Bulls' offense. They do run a LOT of sets specifically for Rose (as you'd expect with one of the best 5-10 players in the league). But they also run a lot of "Redick plays" (running off 2-3 baseline screens for a catch-and-shoot) for Korver. They run curl plays for Deng to the free throw line. They dump the ball to Boozer in both the high post (so he can catch and face up) and low post. They give the ball to Noah in the high post. Perhaps you've only watched a few 4th quarter possessions (when the Bulls often go with Asik and Gibson in place of Boozer and Noah). In those situations, they run a lot more of the isolation for Rose (because Asik and Gibson have no offensive skills other than rebounding and because the officials will give Rose a lot of "star calls"). But it's just not an accurate description of their overall gameplan.

As far as relating it to Duke, you've yet to give me a compelling argument as to why we need to suddenly stop running offense through Curry or Mason just because we don't have Kelly. Have we stopped running offense through those guys when the Plumlees are both on the floor? Did we eliminate Cook from the rotation when those guys were on the floor? Did we relegate Thornton to the bench when Miles moved to the starting lineup? Does Thornton even really run the offense all that much now, or isn't he in primarily for his defense (with Curry and Rivers handling the ball a lot more)?

I just don't see a compelling reason why we should scrap what we were already doing when the Plumlees were in together (or when Hairston was in with a Plumlee) and go strictly with Rivers dominating the ball (at least not any more than he already does). We didn't relegate Curry to spot-up duty when Kelly was out of the game in the past. And we've gone with Thornton and the Plumlees in the starting lineup for 5 of the past 6 games, so it's not like Coach K is afraid to have only two great shooters (though Thornton is hitting 39% on 3s) on the floor with two interior-oriented big men.

I realize it's fun to think about radical changes to the gameplan when a key player goes down. But sometimes radical changes aren't necessary. We won't run the same stuff we ran when Kelly was in the game. It just doesn't make sense to stick a Plumlee or Hairston on the 3pt line. But I don't think we'll go drastically away from what we were doing when Kelly wasn't in the game. What we were doing without Kelly on the floor was still pretty effective. So I think we'll stick with it. I'd expect the same starting lineup that we've had for 5 of the past 6 games. Dawkins will be the first guard off the bench, and Hairston the first big off the bench. We'll rotate 3 bigs, with the Plumlees seeing the vast majority of the action as long as they can stay out of foul trouble. If Dawkins is having a good night, he'll play big minutes and we won't see much of Cook, just like we did before the injury. If he's not, then Thornton will play big minutes and we may see more of Cook. We'll run the offense primarily through Rivers, Curry, and Mason, just like we did before. We'll ask the Plumlees and Hairston to set a lot of screens and pound the glass just like we did before.

The "we won't be as good without Kelly, so we need to drastically change things" argument is a red herring. We aren't going to find some drastic strategic change that makes us as good or better than we were with Kelly, because if it existed, we'd have already done it (at least we'd have done it when Kelly wasn't in the game). Instead, we need is for the rest of the guys to step up in his absence. The Plumlees need to stay out of foul trouble. Hairston needs to give us quality minutes for however long he's in there. The guards will have to work harder to create offense and hit shots. And Rivers, Curry, and the Plumlees are going to need to be ready to hit free throws in the closing minutes.

[Kfanarmy]

.... It may be that CDu is correct and Josh ramps up to 20 minutes, and I'm sure he'll bring great energy and a decent midrange game to the table.... Wow I hope you are right, Duke doesn't really have someone with a decent mid-range game, or at least doesn't bring it often...if Josh brings that, it expands Dukes offense and has potential to really apply offensive pressure everywhere on the floor.

[superdave]

First, that's simply not an accurate description of the Bulls' offense. They do run a LOT of sets specifically for Rose (as you'd expect with one of the best 5-10 players in the league). But they also run a lot of "Redick plays" (running off 2-3 baseline screens for a catch-and-shoot) for Korver. They run curl plays for Deng to the free throw line. They dump the ball to Boozer in both the high post (so he can catch and face up) and low post. They give the ball to Noah in the high post. Perhaps you've only watched a few 4th quarter possessions (when the Bulls often go with Asik and Gibson in place of Boozer and Noah). In those situations, they run a lot more of the isolation for Rose (because Asik and Gibson have no offensive skills other than rebounding and because the officials will give Rose a lot of "star calls"). But it's just not an accurate description of their overall gameplan.

As far as relating it to Duke, you've yet to give me a compelling argument as to why we need to suddenly stop running offense through Curry or Mason just because we don't have Kelly. Have we stopped running offense through those guys when the Plumlees are both on the floor? Did we eliminate Cook from the rotation when those guys were on the floor? Did we relegate Thornton to the bench when Miles moved to the starting lineup? Does Thornton even really run the offense all that much now, or isn't he in primarily for his defense (with Curry and Rivers handling the ball a lot more)?

I just don't see a compelling reason why we should scrap what we were already doing when the Plumlees were in together (or when Hairston was in with a Plumlee) and go strictly with Rivers dominating the ball (at least not any more than he already does). We didn't relegate Curry to spot-up duty when Kelly was out of the game in the past. And we've gone with Thornton and the Plumlees in the starting lineup for 5 of the past 6 games, so it's not like Coach K is afraid to have only two great shooters (though Thornton is hitting 39% on 3s) on the floor with two interior-oriented big men.

I realize it's fun to think about radical changes to the gameplan when a key player goes down. But sometimes radical changes aren't necessary. We won't run the same stuff we ran when Kelly was in the game. It just doesn't make sense to stick a Plumlee or Hairston on the 3pt line. But I don't think we'll go drastically away from what we were doing when Kelly wasn't in the game. What we were doing without Kelly on the floor was still pretty effective. So I think we'll stick with it. I'd expect the same starting lineup that we've had for 5 of the past 6 games. Dawkins will be the first guard off the bench, and Hairston the first big off the bench. We'll rotate 3 bigs, with the Plumlees seeing the vast majority of the action as long as they can stay out of foul trouble. If Dawkins is having a good night, he'll play big minutes and we won't see much of Cook, just like we did before the injury. If he's not, then Thornton will play big minutes and we may see more of Cook. We'll run the offense primarily through Rivers, Curry, and Mason, just like we did before. We'll ask the Plumlees and Hairston to set a lot of screens and pound the glass just like we did before.

The "we won't be as good without Kelly, so we need to drastically change things" argument is a red herring. We aren't going to find some drastic strategic change that makes us as good or better than we were with Kelly, because if it existed, we'd have already done it (at least we'd have done it when Kelly wasn't in the game). Instead, we need is for the rest of the guys to step up in his absence. The Plumlees need to stay out of foul trouble. Hairston needs to give us quality minutes for however long he's in there. The guards will have to work harder to create offense and hit shots. And Rivers, Curry, and the Plumlees are going to need to be ready to hit free throws in the closing minutes.

I think Korver is the one guy they run that for though. I have not really watched them with Rip this season, but in Korver's 15- 20 mpg last season, they ran him all over the place. The rest of the time it was Rose's world.

We have seen Austin initiate the offense more in the past month than in the previous month, but we've also seen Seth really improve his ability to drive the ball. So I think some balance between those two strengths is in order. To be honest, I am disappointed neither guy sets up Plumlee dunks more often with their abilities off the dribble. Easy buckets or fouls aplenty.

[Saratoga2]

Except that I don't think our group of guards is at all similar to Missouri's. The five guards/wings that they rotate somewhat interchangeably are all extremely quick, strong with the ball, and very tenacious defenders. Of our five guards, I'd say only Rivers is comparable (probably more gifted offensively) to Denmon and English. But even then, I'd say their guys are better defenders than Rivers. And they're all quicker, better offensively, and similarly tenacious defensively as Thornton. Their five are certainly better defensively than Dawkins, Curry, and Cook. Their five are just much more suited to making teams pay by playing up-tempo on both ends. Our guards aren't all that suited to such a thing. For a few minutes we could perhaps get away with it (especially if we're killing it with the 3-ball). But we don't have the horses to do that for long stretches like Missouri.

What I think is more likely is that we'll see as much of the Plumlees as possible. Coach K will hope those two can both go 30+ mpg. We'll go with Hairston as the third big and hope he can give us 15-20 mpg. And we'll go with Gbinije at the 4 as necessary to provide rest or fill minutes when the 3 bigs are in foul trouble. This approach will keep us playing the style of play that has worked for us for most of the season. If Mason can go 30mpg (he averages 28), Miles can can go 28mpg (he's averaged 26.6 over the last 7 games), and Hairston can go 18mpg (instead of about 6) then we just need about 4mpg from Gbinije. The only real problem would be if one of the Plumlees gets in very quick (or very serious) foul trouble or gets injured. In that case, we'd see more of Hairston (unless he gets in foul trouble as well - then we'd see Gbinije).

Given our defensively-challenged backcourt and the lack of boxing out those guys have done over the course of the year, I don't think he wants to have Rivers or Dawkins changing their mindset to have to work down low to box out and rebound. I think he'd be more inclined to go with Hairston and Gbinije since those guys have presumably spent more time in practice doing that. The primary examples in which we've gone smaller included the 2001 team and the 2007 and 2008 teams. But the 2007 and 2008 teams didn't actually go THAT small. The 2007 team had McRoberts for 35mpg and McClure/Thomas/Zoubek combining for over 40mpg. And our wings were Nelson, Henderson, and Scheyer. The 2008 team essentially just replaced McRoberts with Singler and Taylor King. And the 2001 team had Battier, Sanders, a 6'9" wing in Dunleavy, and a big, physical 6'6" wing in James. Those were all bigger, more physical teams than we have now.
Excellent post and the most likely scenario. If Michael had been that impressive in practice, he would already be getting more minutes, so I would presume he will get fill in minutes.

[Matches]

I think 2001 spoiled us to an extent (and 2009 to a lesser extent) - we seem to now expect a major shakeup every time someone gets hurt. Kelly obviously is an important part of the team but he's not as central a piece as Boozer was in 2001, and he's probably only out for this weekend (whereas Boozer originally was thought to be out for the season). Completely changing our style of play for one weekend doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[UrinalCake]

Josh as a sophomore is about a year behind where Ryan was as a sophomore, in my opinion. Ryan is highly skilled whereas Josh is high energy.

I think Josh is farther along than where Ryan was as a freshman. Ryan was physically overmatched, he just didn't have the strength to hold any kind of position. Josh is more physically developed. I agree he doesn't have Ryan's skills or shooting ability, but he's able and willing to band around inside so I think he can contribute some positive minutes. The big thing for him is toning it down and playing under control, he's a little TOO energetic out there sometimes.

Also, I prefer to call it the "Nolan Smith" offense rather than the "Derrick Rose" offense, as we typically bring a big out to set a ball screen for Austin at the top of the circle. I don't think his decision making is quite good enough to run this for the whole game (though it is improving). However, we do turn to this play a lot when our offense is stalling and we really need a bucket

[CDu]

I think Korver is the one guy they run that for though. I have not really watched them with Rip this season, but in Korver's 15- 20 mpg last season, they ran him all over the place. The rest of the time it was Rose's world.

I listed several different types of plays that they run. Korver is the main one that they run the "Redick plays" for, though Hamilton also runs those plays some. But they run different sets for Deng, Boozer, and Noah as well. Rose definitely has the majority of the plays run for him (as it should be with the best ballhandler, playmaker, and scorer on the team) but there is quite a bit of diversity to that offense. Again, unless you talk about late-game situations in which Boozer and Noah aren't on the floor. Then, they either run the Korver/Hamilton play or it's isolation for Rose.

[Kedsy]

First, that's simply not an accurate description of the Bulls' offense. They do run a LOT of sets specifically for Rose (as you'd expect with one of the best 5-10 players in the league). But they also run a lot of "Redick plays" (running off 2-3 baseline screens for a catch-and-shoot) for Korver. They run curl plays for Deng to the free throw line. They dump the ball to Boozer in both the high post (so he can catch and face up) and low post. They give the ball to Noah in the high post. Perhaps you've only watched a few 4th quarter possessions (when the Bulls often go with Asik and Gibson in place of Boozer and Noah). In those situations, they run a lot more of the isolation for Rose (because Asik and Gibson have no offensive skills other than rebounding and because the officials will give Rose a lot of "star calls"). But it's just not an accurate description of their overall gameplan.

I attended the Bulls/76ers game last Wednesday, and watched the entire game. The Bulls did none of the things you mention. When Korver was in, he stood around, sort of like Andre does sometimes. Hamilton, too. They didn't seem to run any screens for either of them. The entire game they ran exactly one curl play for Deng (who was scoreless for the first three quarters of the game). Boozer rarely if ever saw the ball in the high post, and after Noah put up one ill-advised shot from there he never saw the ball again.

Maybe that one game was an anomaly. I admit I rarely watch the NBA on TV.


But I don't think we'll go drastically away from what we were doing when Kelly wasn't in the game. What we were doing without Kelly on the floor was still pretty effective. So I think we'll stick with it.

This argument doesn't necessarily persuade me. I mentioned this in the other thread, but Boozer played the same number of minutes per game that Kelly has this season. But after Boozer got hurt we didn't just play the same way we had in the 14 minutes he was off the court. I admit losing Boozer was more drastic than losing Kelly, and since this is (hopefully) a shorter term loss than that was, perhaps there's no need to get creative, but to me the same principles are present.

[UT Dukie]

Long time lurker and first time poster here.

I wonder whether the dreaded Z-word might be applicable sometime during the tournament. Although Coach K would never want to use zone as a primary defense, I do wonder whether it might be worth a shot in the face of foul trouble or tired legs (if that happens :)). Some time to prepare may increase the likelihood of this approach even as history would suggest otherwise.

Thoughts?


_____________
T '96

[roywhite]

Long time lurker and first time poster here.

I wonder whether the dreaded Z-word might be applicable sometime during the tournament. Although Coach K would never want to use zone as a primary defense, I do wonder whether it might be worth a shot in the face of foul trouble or tired legs (if that happens :)). Some time to prepare may increase the likelihood of this approach even as history would suggest otherwise.

Thoughts?


_____________
T '96

Glad you've joined the discussion and good call on your part IMO.

Yes, I expect to see the zone in Duke's first game and possibly after that, depending on how things go.
K will try it for the reasons you indicate, and to give other potential opponents something to think about.

[rsvman]

Glad you've joined the discussion and good call on your part IMO.

Yes, I expect to see the zone in Duke's first game and possibly after that, depending on how things go.
K will try it for the reasons you indicate, and to give other potential opponents something to think about.

It's not a bad idea, but history tells us it is highly unlikely to happen. Unless by "see the zone" you mean one or two possessions per half. That's about the extent to which Coach K has decided to use zone defense in the past.

[COYS]

Long time lurker and first time poster here.

I wonder whether the dreaded Z-word might be applicable sometime during the tournament. Although Coach K would never want to use zone as a primary defense, I do wonder whether it might be worth a shot in the face of foul trouble or tired legs (if that happens :)). Some time to prepare may increase the likelihood of this approach even as history would suggest otherwise.

Thoughts?


_____________
T '96

I honestly don't like zone defenses except as an occasional junk defense to mess up an opposing team's out-of-time-out set play or something like that. Syracuse has amazing length and athleticism, which is great for playing a zone. Despite their incredible physical talents, however, the Syracuse players don't have a top 10 defense according to KenPom. In fact, they haven't had a top 10 defense in the past 5 years. This is their best year and they are currently 14th in the nation. That's better than us this year, but worse than most Duke teams of the past 5 years (2009 is the only other team that finished worse at #20, otherwise Duke is always top 10). How can a team with so much length, athleticism, and HOF coaching not even crack to the top 10? Part of it is they are consistently a poor defensive rebounding teams in the country, which is a side effect of zone defense. The other is that the traps and double-teams that make zones really effective in high school and against some college teams lose a lot of their effectiveness against quality teams who have ball-handlers that can escape traps and can either penetrate the zone, shoot over it, or a combination of the two, consistently. Personally, I feel that if a team full of defensively talented players like Syracuse are barely managing to translate their zone into an elite defense, a Duke team that lacks length at the guard and small forward spots would give themselves almost no advantage whatsoever trying to run a zone.

[superdave]

I honestly don't like zone defenses except as an occasional junk defense to mess up an opposing team's out-of-time-out set play or something like that. Syracuse has amazing length and athleticism, which is great for playing a zone. Despite their incredible physical talents, however, the Syracuse players don't have a top 10 defense according to KenPom. In fact, they haven't had a top 10 defense in the past 5 years. This is their best year and they are currently 14th in the nation. That's better than us this year, but worse than most Duke teams of the past 5 years (2009 is the only other team that finished worse at #20, otherwise Duke is always top 10). How can a team with so much length, athleticism, and HOF coaching not even crack to the top 10? Part of it is they are consistently a poor defensive rebounding teams in the country, which is a side effect of zone defense. The other is that the traps and double-teams that make zones really effective in high school and against some college teams lose a lot of their effectiveness against quality teams who have ball-handlers that can escape traps and can either penetrate the zone, shoot over it, or a combination of the two, consistently. Personally, I feel that if a team full of defensively talented players like Syracuse are barely managing to translate their zone into an elite defense, a Duke team that lacks length at the guard and small forward spots would give themselves almost no advantage whatsoever trying to run a zone.


We should have thrown a zone or a full-court press at Unc when they started out so hot the other night, just to break their rhythm. Otherwise I'm not a huge fan. It's a junk defense, or maybe a better analogy is that it's an off-speed pitch. It can be useful for Duke only if someone does not know it's coming.

[COYS]

We should have thrown a zone or a full-court press at Unc when they started out so hot the other night, just to break their rhythm. Otherwise I'm not a huge fan. It's a junk defense, or maybe a better analogy is that it's an off-speed pitch. It can be useful for Duke only if someone does not know it's coming.

Of course, if we play a 2-3, even for a possession or two, we're almost certainly giving up a huge mismatch in the post. We'd have to go with two of Mason, Miles and Ryan (this is based on the UNC game when Ryan was playing and healthy) plus either Andre or Austin going in the post. If we put one of our bigs in the middle at center, who plays the other post position? If we put both of our bigs on the blocks, who plays center? Even as a junk defense I see it as creating a horrible mismatch somewhere in the post.

[CDu]

I attended the Bulls/76ers game last Wednesday, and watched the entire game. The Bulls did none of the things you mention. When Korver was in, he stood around, sort of like Andre does sometimes. Hamilton, too. They didn't seem to run any screens for either of them. The entire game they ran exactly one curl play for Deng (who was scoreless for the first three quarters of the game). Boozer rarely if ever saw the ball in the high post, and after Noah put up one ill-advised shot from there he never saw the ball again.

Maybe that one game was an anomaly. I admit I rarely watch the NBA on TV.

The Bulls didn't play the 76ers last Wednesday. They played the 76ers on Sunday, so I'll assume that's the game you meant? If so, I didn't see that game. But based in comparing your description to the box score and shot chart, I'd say it was either an anomaly or that maybe you missed some of the action. It was certainly an anomaly in the regard that Korver barely played and Hamilton was just coming back from injury.

Boozer shot 6-12, and many of his attempts were from the 13-18 foot spots along the elbow that are typical of his "high post, turn and face" jumpers. Hamilton took 4-5 of those 17-18 footers that usually come from him running off a bunch of screens. Deng had a rough night, but did appear to take 4-5 of those 12-18 foot shots around the FT line area that are common for him cutting off the ball. Noah took three 12+ foot jumpers and an 8 footer. Now, I don't know if any of those were on high/low post plays or if it was all in scrambles off an offensive rebound or high screen and roll. But I'm guessing there were a couple of post plays for him. We don't run much through him, but usually there's some bones thrown his way to keep him interested in doing the dirty work (his primary job).

Again, I didn't see the game, so I can't say for sure. We'll chalk it up as an anomaly - that's not the way they typically play. The shortened season can do funny things with so many back-to-back games, so maybe the team was doing something different for that reason.


This argument doesn't necessarily persuade me. I mentioned this in the other thread, but Boozer played the same number of minutes per game that Kelly has this season. But after Boozer got hurt we didn't just play the same way we had in the 14 minutes he was off the court. I admit losing Boozer was more drastic than losing Kelly, and since this is (hopefully) a shorter term loss than that was, perhaps there's no need to get creative, but to me the same principles are present.

The difference isn't in the number of minutes. It's in the complete elimination of one entire style of play. With Boozer, we could play inside out, because we had a post scorer. With Sanders, there was no longer any interior scoring presence. Prior to the injury, the minutes that Boozer sat in 2001 were minutes that we merely tried to get by. After the injury, that entire approach was gone (you can't just "get by" for 40 minutes). Since we couldn't count on any interior scoring and we lost our best rebounder, we needed to make a major change to (a) prevent teams from killing us on the boards on both ends and (b) create scoring chances. So we went small and pushed tempo and applied even more pressure on the perimeter defense to try to create turnovers. It worked.

The loss of Kelly is different. Without Kelly, we can still spread the court with 2-3 really good shooters. We can still score in the post. We still have 2 guards who are very good with the ball in their hands. All it eliminates is the "4-out, 1-in" and "pick and pop" approaches. But I don't think that was ever the core of this team's identity the way it was with the 2001 team. We've shown that the two-big approach can work, and it's not like we've relied on Kelly on offense like we relied on Boozer for his offense. I just don't think it's at all similar, really. And as such, I don't think it's cause for radically changing things up.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I suspect a zone defense is only likely to make our current rebounding woes that much worse. Although given that we have not been very strong on our box outs lately, maybe it puts three guys nearer to the basket and improves our chances. Who knows... but I don't see it happening.

[Marcus]

This is the greatest Coach ever on earth as far as getting kids to play together as a team, focus and listen. I trust in his ability to the utmost to win the ACC Tourney. Duke has a lot to play for.. and he doesn't want to go into the NCAA tourney as a #3 seed. Alot of people say, Coach K doesn't Coach.. lol.. thats funny. I mean yeah of course, he'll sit on the bench at times in crucial situations and stand up frequently to give his 2 cents to the refs.. but whats wrong with letting kids perform and figure things out themselves?? now thats coaching... letting kids grow, letting them mess up and teaching them what in the hell they did wrong! Sorry we don't have a bunch of ADHD players like them in chapel hill that "their" coach has to stand up and coach the whole game for because he knows if he sits down... someone will f it all up.. I bet Duke wants to see Carolina on Sunday.. its unfortunate Kelly is out but I bet if you asked every Duke player if they made it to Sunday.. who'd they want to play and they'd say Carolina. .... not so sure the fans would agree with that though!

[Kedsy]

The Bulls didn't play the 76ers last Wednesday. They played the 76ers on Sunday, so I'll assume that's the game you meant? If so, I didn't see that game.

Yes, sorry, it was Sunday. On Wednesday I attended the Temple/UMass game, and I got the dates confused.


But based in comparing your description to the box score and shot chart, I'd say it was either an anomaly or that maybe you missed some of the action. It was certainly an anomaly in the regard that Korver barely played and Hamilton was just coming back from injury.

Boozer shot 6-12, and many of his attempts were from the 13-18 foot spots along the elbow that are typical of his "high post, turn and face" jumpers. Hamilton took 4-5 of those 17-18 footers that usually come from him running off a bunch of screens. Deng had a rough night, but did appear to take 4-5 of those 12-18 foot shots around the FT line area that are common for him cutting off the ball. Noah took three 12+ foot jumpers and an 8 footer. Now, I don't know if any of those were on high/low post plays or if it was all in scrambles off an offensive rebound or high screen and roll. But I'm guessing there were a couple of post plays for him. We don't run much through him, but usually there's some bones thrown his way to keep him interested in doing the dirty work (his primary job).

Again, I didn't see the game, so I can't say for sure. We'll chalk it up as an anomaly - that's not the way they typically play. The shortened season can do funny things with so many back-to-back games, so maybe the team was doing something different for that reason.

OK. With one or two exceptions, Noah's shots were pretty much all after offensive rebounds and pick-and-rolls. A couple times he got the ball 12 or 15 feet from the basket and the crowd jeered at him to shoot, but after his first such shot missed badly, he seemed unwilling to do it. Hamilton's shots seemed to come mostly off kick outs. I was specifically looking to see whether the Bulls cut a lot while Rose had the ball, and I really didn't see very much of it. Brewer cut a couple of times when the shot clock was in danger of expiring. On the few occasions Rose passed along the perimeter, Rose then cut aggressively so he could get the ball back. Deng seemed off, and until the 4th quarter didn't seem to move much at all. They did run several screen and rolls. You may be right about Boozer's shots coming off catches in the high post. My recollection was they were further in, but if the box score said he shot a bunch from 13 to 18 feet, I could be wrong about that.

Anyway, I'll take your word that it wasn't typical. It was the first full game I'd seen of the Bulls this year.

[Kedsy]

We've shown that the two-big approach can work, and it's not like we've relied on Kelly on offense like we relied on Boozer for his offense. I just don't think it's at all similar, really. And as such, I don't think it's cause for radically changing things up.

You may be right. I have viewed Ryan as a more integral part of our identity than you seem to. I feel his offensive versatility is what allows us to play the way we do. Seems to me, if we don't make changes we'll be relying on the hope that Mason and Andre can step up, big time. A lineup of Tyler, Seth, Austin, Mason, Miles doesn't have a lot of offensive punch. With Ryan available, we could afford to play that lineup for stretches because we'd also get the extremely potent combination of Seth/Austin/Andre/Ryan/Mason for a good portion of the game. It seems to me without Ryan to balance things out, we're complementing our so-so defense with a watered down offense, and that doesn't seem ideal to me. Now, if Mason and Andre both step up, that might make up for Ryan's loss on offense, but they're both so inconsistent, relying on that seems like a gamble. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

[Devilsfan]

Ryan's foot might have been an issue for a while, IMO. His 1-8 shooting in the final game that decided the ACC champs and seeding in the NCAAT was not like Ryan.

[CDu]

You may be right. I have viewed Ryan as a more integral part of our identity than you seem to. I feel his offensive versatility is what allows us to play the way we do. Seems to me, if we don't make changes we'll be relying on the hope that Mason and Andre can step up, big time. A lineup of Tyler, Seth, Austin, Mason, Miles doesn't have a lot of offensive punch. With Ryan available, we could afford to play that lineup for stretches because we'd also get the extremely potent combination of Seth/Austin/Andre/Ryan/Mason for a good portion of the game. It seems to me without Ryan to balance things out, we're complementing our so-so defense with a watered down offense, and that doesn't seem ideal to me. Now, if Mason and Andre both step up, that might make up for Ryan's loss on offense, but they're both so inconsistent, relying on that seems like a gamble. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

Oh, I think we'll need to rely on almost all of the guys to step up in Ryan's absence. It's by no means an insignificant loss, and I hope I didn't appear to suggest otherwise. We'll need Hairston to play better and for longer than he's shown this year. We'll need both Miles and Mason to be consistent presences (which hasn't always happened in the same game). We'll need Rivers and Curry to play well. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to have Dawkins show up big. Thornton and Cook will remain wild cards offensively, but they'll need to make good decisions on both ends of the court.

And I'm not sure that I agree that a lineup of Rivers, Curry, Mason, Miles, and Thornton isn't potent. We'd have a 1st Team All-ACC scorer, a 3rd Team All-ACC scorer, and a 3rd Team All-ACC post player on the floor with a senior who has really stepped up to become a big-time offensive rebounding and overall presence over the last 6-7 games and a tough defender who has hit for a high 3pt percentage this year (though admittedly not much else). It's a different kind of offensive punch (better offensive rebounding and post scoring, obviously fewer perimeter weapons), but it's still a pretty big punch in my opinion. And we can bring in Dawkins in place of Thornton to provide a better 3pt shooter if Dawkins is hitting. When he's hitting, all tends to be right with the world. Maybe it's not the #6 most efficient offense in the nation anymore, but I'd guess it'd still be very very efficient. And I just don't think there's a dramatically different allotment that gets us any more elite offensively without completely foregoing defense altogether (which is I think a worse strategy).

Yes, it's a gamble. But everything is going to be a gamble when you have to replace one of your three primary big men who also happens to be your third-leading scorer and one of your better perimeter shooters. I just think it's less of a gamble than completely overhauling the approach. We'll see what happens this weekend. Hopefully whatever approach we go with works and we add yet another ACC Championship banner to the rafters and maybe even pull down another #1 seed.

[Wander]

Ryan's foot might have been an issue for a while, IMO. His 1-8 shooting in the final game that decided the ACC champs and seeding in the NCAAT was not like Ryan.

I suggest you look at Ryan's stats in games against UNC over his whole career. They're not pretty.

[AZLA]

Long time lurker and first time poster here.

I wonder whether the dreaded Z-word might be applicable sometime during the tournament. Although Coach K would never want to use zone as a primary defense, I do wonder whether it might be worth a shot in the face of foul trouble or tired legs (if that happens :)). Some time to prepare may increase the likelihood of this approach even as history would suggest otherwise.

Thoughts?


_____________
T '96

Actually, not to be coy, but I was wondering whether the Z-word defense would have proved useful during the NC game to be honest. Personally, I would have like to have seen it tried to stop the bleeding. It's not a bad idea, depending on match-up, but honestly as a good and important as Kelly is overall, I don't see as huge a drop-off defensively as others do. My point being -- Duke needs to pull all the levers on defense. If the Z-word is one of them so be it.

[CDu]

I suggest you look at Ryan's stats in games against UNC over his whole career. They're not pretty.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. That's one game in which Kelly's perimeter shooting would theoretically be most important. If he could hit that shot against UNC, he'd either pull Henson or Zeller way away from the basket (helping the guards and the Plumlees score around the basket) or he'd be raining open 3s. Instead, he's been largely a no-show from the perimeter, going 1-5, 0-6, 1-2, 1-7, and 0-5 from 3 over the past 2 years. That's 3-25 (12%) from 3 and 14-41 (34%) overall. Definitely not his best work.

[OldSchool]

I suggest you look at Ryan's stats in games against UNC over his whole career. They're not pretty.

On the other hand, Ryan's stats in ACC road games this year are quite comely. Ryan's play on the road is a big reason we were undefeated in ACC road games.

Ryan's absence really hurts us. AR's effectiveness can be frustrated by packing the lane on his drives, and Ryan's absence will allow teams to do just that.

Which is not to say we can't get to the title game without him. But we can't afford for our guards to be stone cold from the 3 pt line. Any of the teams we will be playing are quite capable of beating us. I very much hope if we get to the title game that Ryan can give us some minutes. Has there been any update on his ankle?

[CDu]

On the other hand, Ryan's stats in ACC road games this year are quite comely. Ryan's play on the road is a big reason we were undefeated in ACC road games.

Ryan's absence really hurts us. AR's effectiveness can be frustrated by packing the lane on his drives, and Ryan's absence will allow teams to do just that.

Which is not to say we can't get to the title game without him. But we can't afford for our guards to be stone cold from the 3 pt line. Any of the teams we will be playing are quite capable of beating us. I very much hope if we get to the title game that Ryan can give us some minutes. Has there been any update on his ankle?

I think this is absolutely correct. Kelly provided everyone else a larger margin for error because he was one more very good weapon from the perimeter. We had 5-6 guys reasonably capable of a 20+ point night on any given night, and 4 guys reasonably capable of knocking down 3-4 3s in a game. Now, we have one less top scoring option and one less 3 point shooter. So it's that much more important for everyone else to show up with their good shooting shoes/hats on. We can certainly still win this thing, but we'll have to be on our game for sure. MUCH less margin for error.

As far as his availability, I thought was already stated he's out for the weekend and will be re-evaluated Monday. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[Kedsy]

...and a tough defender who has hit for a high 3pt percentage this year (though admittedly not much else)...

Tyler had a high percentage from three in the beginning of the season, and he seems to have a knack for hitting one as the shot clock buzzer is winding down, but I think his 39% accuracy number is somewhat illusory. In ACC play, he's under 30% (29.8%, 14-47). It's a small sample size, so it might be coincidence, but I don't believe we can count on him to be a 40% outside shooter, especially if he takes more shots due to Ryan's absence.

[gam7]

I think this is absolutely correct. Kelly provided everyone else a larger margin for error because he was one more very good weapon from the perimeter. We had 5-6 guys reasonably capable of a 20+ point night on any given night, and 4 guys reasonably capable of knocking down 3-4 3s in a game. Now, we have one less top scoring option and one less 3 point shooter. So it's that much more important for everyone else to show up with their good shooting shoes/hats on. We can certainly still win this thing, but we'll have to be on our game for sure. MUCH less margin for error.

As far as his availability, I thought was already stated he's out for the weekend and will be re-evaluated Monday. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I agree. Another way to look at it - earlier this year, Coach K described a weakness of this team (with Kelly) being that we can either go big or we can go small. There is no in between. The only player with any real versatility is Ryan. And his versatility was really only on the offensive end. Without Ryan, we have continue to have no versatility defensively and we've lost some of our offensive versatility. I think Coach K's big/small comment is accentuated now.

[OldSchool]

I think this is absolutely correct. Kelly provided everyone else a larger margin for error because he was one more very good weapon from the perimeter. We had 5-6 guys reasonably capable of a 20+ point night on any given night, and 4 guys reasonably capable of knocking down 3-4 3s in a game. Now, we have one less top scoring option and one less 3 point shooter. So it's that much more important for everyone else to show up with their good shooting shoes/hats on. We can certainly still win this thing, but we'll have to be on our game for sure. MUCH less margin for error.

As far as his availability, I thought was already stated he's out for the weekend and will be re-evaluated Monday. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I can't imagine they aren't evaluating it every day or two.

If we do get to the title game, in my mind's eye I can sort of see Ryan coming out onto the floor.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqQR_G0_Zc)

[CDu]

I can't imagine they aren't evaluating it every day or two.

If we do get to the title game, in my mind's eye I can sort of see Ryan coming out onto the floor.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqQR_G0_Zc)

If so, hopefully he shoots better than he has historically against UNC (assuming it's UNC we face in the final, which would be the only reason I'd see him come back early).

[CDu]

Tyler had a high percentage from three in the beginning of the season, and he seems to have a knack for hitting one as the shot clock buzzer is winding down, but I think his 39% accuracy number is somewhat illusory. In ACC play, he's under 30% (29.8%, 14-47). It's a small sample size, so it might be coincidence, but I don't believe we can count on him to be a 40% outside shooter, especially if he takes more shots due to Ryan's absence.

I'm more inclined to take the aggregate measure over the smaller sample size, especially considering that the quality of competition in our pre-season schedule was pretty tough. If we want to go smaller sample size, I could say he's hitting 50% of his 3s over his last 3 ACC games (5-10). ;) But really, he's shot mostly uncontested 3s throughout the season (teams have picked him as their poison whenever possible), so I see no reason to assume there's anything inherent about ACC play that has caused his percentage to drop. That's why I'd chalk it up to "randomness" and take the aggregate measure. But obviously there's no real way to know.

[Kedsy]

...so I see no reason to assume there's anything inherent about ACC play that has caused his percentage to drop.

Well, other than the ACC games are more recent. I don't know the answer to this one, but I'm not sure randomness explains it all. His form looks more like a 30% shooter than a 40% shooter, so that may be swaying me.

[Devilsfan]

Form, form, form. Austin's form is not text book either but I'd rather have him taking the last shot against unc than one of our other guards who has almost perfect form. Form is not that big a deal in my book if the shots are dropping. So far there has only been one JJ at Duke. The old "looks like Tarzan plays like Jane" is not what we need. I contend Ryan's foot was not right prior to this week. Just my opinion.

[Zeke]

After last week, I'm doubtful Duke can win the championship game against UNC. What I am concerned about is that the loss of Ryan with his 3 point shooting; his foul shooting; and his ability to play the post, particularly when M&M have foul problems, may keep Duke out of the finals. I hope this injury didn't happen during a hard scrimmage - at this time of year.

[Kedsy]

I hope this injury didn't happen during a hard scrimmage - at this time of year.

Are you suggesting the team shouldn't scrimmage hard in preparation for the post-season?

[CDu]

After last week, I'm doubtful Duke can win the championship game against UNC. What I am concerned about is that the loss of Ryan with his 3 point shooting; his foul shooting; and his ability to play the post, particularly when M&M have foul problems, may keep Duke out of the finals. I hope this injury didn't happen during a hard scrimmage - at this time of year.

I have a slight disagreement here. I am doubtful that we will win the ACC Championship this year, but I have absolutely no doubt that we can beat UNC if we both make the final. We'd certainly be the underdogs, and probably by a good margin. But if the shots are falling, if we box out, and if the Plumlees can play like they did in Cameron, we WILL win. Even if we don't box out better, if the shots are falling and the Plumlees repeat their performance, we'll still have a fighting chance to win. The 3-ball means that much in the college game. It's as simple as that. We have a chance because, even without Kelly, we're the better 3-point shooting team.

[Dukehky]

I think Ryan is out for this tournament altogether and I don't think that our performance in it has any baring on whether he will play on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. I'd be extremely surprised if he played and am not counting on it. Wish he could play but we've won plenty of ACCs, and as much as I love this tournament, I'd much rather hold him out to get a 100% ryan in the NCAAs than have an 80% Ryan with a more likely chance of aggravating that foot. It hurts our chances to win this tournament yes, but even K will tell you the most important tournament starts next weekend. I'm sorry if I sound like Roy but you have to do the best with the cards your dealt and our cards don't give us a great hand this weekend.

[Newton_14]

I have a slight disagreement here. I am doubtful that we will win the ACC Championship this year, but I have absolutely no doubt that we can beat UNC if we both make the final. We'd certainly be the underdogs, and probably by a good margin. But if the shots are falling, if we box out, and if the Plumlees can play like they did in Cameron, we WILL win. Even if we don't box out better, if the shots are falling and the Plumlees repeat their performance, we'll still have a fighting chance to win. The 3-ball means that much in the college game. It's as simple as that. We have a chance because, even without Kelly, we're the better 3-point shooting team.

Totally agree with this. In the 2009 ACC Final, we blew out a FSU team that was arguably a better team over all, because it was literally raining 3's. Kyle, Jon, and Gerald were all hitting on all cylinders. Zoubek had like 3 or 4 key blocks in the middle on the big Nigerian kid, and one of the aforementioned guys nailed a 3 on the other end each time. Duke put on a shooting clinic early in the first half and it just deflated a very talented and big FSU team.

Any game where Seth, Austin, and Andre are all hitting 3's at a high rate will equate to Duke winning or being right there with a chance to win, no matter who the opponent is. Like you said, it is just the nature of the beast that is college hoops these days.

[elvis14]

Here's what I'm thinking: someone is going to grasp this opportunity and step up.

Maybe it'll be Tyler, could be Andre and I think Mason could break out big time. Josh, Silent G or Quinn might step up. I don't know who it'll be or if it'll be multiple guys but this team has heart and I think that the void left by Ryan will be filled big time by guys stepping up as opposed to the team struggling because he's missing.!

9F

[Highlander]

Many people seem to be assuming Ryan will be back next week. However, it is also possible he could be out for an extended period of time, especially if this is serious. The fact that they aren't even going to look at it until next week doesn't sound promising to me.

My bet is that Coach K is assuming Kelly will not be back this year, and it is quite possible he may be right.

[_Gary]

There are so many varying degrees of ankle sprains it really could mean anything for Ryan. If it's a mild, lower ankle sprain he'll almost assuredly be back by the first game of the NCAA's. If it's a high ankle sprain, all bets are off. God forbid, but if it is of that variety, he could easily miss the entire post-season. Let's hope it's not that type of sprain.

[gep]

Here's what I'm thinking: someone is going to grasp this opportunity and step up.

Maybe it'll be Tyler, could be Andre and I think Mason could break out big time. Josh, Silent G or Quinn might step up. I don't know who it'll be or if it'll be multiple guys but this team has heart and I think that the void left by Ryan will be filled big time by guys stepping up as opposed to the team struggling because he's missing.!

9F

or maybe even MILES!!!! he's my man:cool:

GO DUKE!!!!

[jv001]

or maybe even MILES!!!! he's my man:cool:

GO DUKE!!!!

Maybe it will be Robby West or Fred Lind :)GoDuke!

[nocilla]

Everything that I have read says it is a foot sprain and not an ankle sprain. I don't know if that makes a difference in projecting his return but I think we can rule out the high ankle sprain.

[_Gary]

Everything that I have read says it is a foot sprain and not an ankle sprain. I don't know if that makes a difference in projecting his return but I think we can rule out the high ankle sprain.

Good! That's definitely a big difference!

Get well soon, Mr. Kelly.

[elvis14]

or maybe even MILES!!!! he's my man:cool:

GO DUKE!!!!

LOL, I didn't even list Miles because he's been playing so well, I just assumed he was going to step up :D

[dyedwab]

Everything that I have read says it is a foot sprain and not an ankle sprain. I don't know if that makes a difference in projecting his return but I think we can rule out the high ankle sprain.

I'm...concerned.....that the initial reports were that Ryan was instantly out of the ACC tournament and that he wouldn't be reevaluated until Monday. This suggests to me that the injury is more serious than the limited descriptions of it describe.

I hope I am wrong, and I wish Ryan well in his recovery

[Fish80]

Here's what I'm thinking: someone is going to grasp this opportunity and step up.

Maybe it'll be Tyler, could be Andre and I think Mason could break out big time. Josh, Silent G or Quinn might step up. I don't know who it'll be or if it'll be multiple guys but this team has heart and I think that the void left by Ryan will be filled big time by guys stepping up as opposed to the team struggling because he's missing.!

9F


or maybe even MILES!!!! he's my man:cool:

GO DUKE!!!!


LOL, I didn't even list Miles because he's been playing so well, I just assumed he was going to step up :D

I could go for Miles, and Miles, and Miles and Miles . . .

[MCFinARL]

I could go for Miles, and Miles, and Miles and Miles . . .

Is there Magic in your eyes?

[devildeac]

I could go for Miles, and Miles, and Miles and Miles . . .


Is there Magic in your eyes?

Good stuff, folks, but Who are you talking about?

[mgtr]

Good stuff, folks, but Who are you talking about?

Maybe he thinks that Miles will turn into Dwight Howard!

[devildeac]

Maybe he thinks that Miles will turn into Dwight Howard!

Now, I know you've deceived me but here's a surprise
... cause there's Magic in my eyes;)

[CDu]

I'm...concerned.....that the initial reports were that Ryan was instantly out of the ACC tournament and that he wouldn't be reevaluated until Monday. This suggests to me that the injury is more serious than the limited descriptions of it describe.

I hope I am wrong, and I wish Ryan well in his recovery

Perhaps it is a situation where they won't know more until swelling goes down, and thus aren't going to say more. That said, the "not reevaluating until Monday suggests it's at least substantial. Hopefully he'll be ready by the NCAAs. We should probably be able to get through the first weekend of the NCAAs without him (though game 2 would be a test), but we'll really need him the further we go.

Hopefully it's nothing too major (for his sake and for ours).

[Greg_Newton]

Perhaps it is a situation where they won't know more until swelling goes down, and thus aren't going to say more. That said, the "not reevaluating until Monday suggests it's at least substantial. Hopefully he'll be ready by the NCAAs. We should probably be able to get through the first weekend of the NCAAs without him (though game 2 would be a test), but we'll really need him the further we go.

Hopefully it's nothing too major (for his sake and for ours).

FWIW, I'd be surprised if he returns this season. Haven't heard that in concrete terms, but there's a lot of smoke going around in that vein, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Duke will wait until the day after the selection meeting to announce anything officially.

[Zeke]

Are you suggesting the team shouldn't scrimmage hard in preparation for the post-season?

Yes most definitely. Your most important object in this "one and done" time of the season is to keep everybody healthy. They know what to do. They know (or don't know) how to play hard. They don't have to do it in pracctice.

[Devilsfan]

More true forecourt depth, like the team in front of us in the standings would solve the problem.

[devildeac]

FWIW, I'd be surprised if he returns this season. Haven't heard that in concrete terms, but there's a lot of smoke going around in that vein, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Duke will wait until the day after the selection meeting to announce anything officially.

Heard K interviewed pre/post-game and he said Ryan was making good progress and was hoping to have him back for next weekend.

[Kedsy]

Yes most definitely. Your most important object in this "one and done" time of the season is to keep everybody healthy. They know what to do. They know (or don't know) how to play hard. They don't have to do it in pracctice.

Well, you and Coach K apparently disagree on that one.

[wallyman]

Heard K interviewed pre/post-game and he said Ryan was making good progress and was hoping to have him back for next weekend.

Winning game was a good deal, but having Ryan back next weekend would be a better one...

[Greg_Newton]

Heard K interviewed pre/post-game and he said Ryan was making good progress and was hoping to have him back for next weekend.

Really? Wow. Well maybe/hopefully I heard wrong, then.

[devildeac]

Really? Wow. Well maybe/hopefully I heard wrong, then.

I kinda had my doubts when I heard/read he'd be re-evaluated Monday but, even at my ancient age with faulty hearing and less than stellar memory, I heard K mention it twice so I am hopeful.

[toooskies]

Of course, regardless of where Ryan's recovery is, the smart move for NCAA seeding is to imply the team will probably be at full strength for the tournament.

[Johnny Chill]

I think this is good for us - G and Hairston should get minutes for extended periods of time when it counts. Assuming Kelly comes back for the NCAAs, we could be stronger.

Gbinije didnt get into the game against V.Tech. I'm starting to doubt he will play at all in the ACCT.

Hairston did a nice job filling. Great effort, boxing out and rebound, getting his hands on the ball, a little to quick of a trigger, but his 1 man fast break came out of no where.

[Greg_Newton]

Yup, I think it's safe to say the only time we'll see Gbinije this season is the last several minutes of our game next Friday. If he didn't get in against VT's undersized/versatile frontcourt, he's not getting in against FSU or UNC's 6'10 beasts.

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, coach K's quote sounds like the company line given for the selection committee to hear. They've been pretty aggressive in dropping teams down due to injuries IMO. This is the same reason coach k paraded Kyrie on the sidelines in last year's ACCT.

[camion]

Yeah, coach K's quote sounds like the company line given for the selection committee to hear. They've been pretty aggressive in dropping teams down due to injuries IMO. This is the same reason coach k paraded Kyrie on the sidelines in last year's ACCT.

Kyrie did play in the NCAA tourney though.

[Devilsfan]

Wonder what's the staff's reason for not playing silent G for even a couple of minutes?

[Zeke]

Well, you and Coach K apparently disagree on that one.

Well, not really. I heard coach just today say that the most important thing at this time of year was to have the team healthy, both physically and mentally. We really don't know what happened to Ryan - it may have just been a layup drill or something freaky. They usually do run through their specific sets for up comming opponets, but as I said. a hard scrimmage (substitute intense if you wish) is really not needed this time of year.
The fact that Ryan is going to be further evaluated after the seedings makes me wonder if someone doesn't think it might be a stress fracture. If so he's gone for a while.

[Newton_14]

Well, not really. I heard coach just today say that the most important thing at this time of year was to have the team healthy, both physically and mentally. We really don't know what happened to Ryan - it may have just been a layup drill or something freaky. They usually do run through their specific sets for up comming opponets, but as I said. a hard scrimmage (substitute intense if you wish) is really not needed this time of year.
The fact that Ryan is going to be further evaluated after the seedings makes me wonder if someone doesn't think it might be a stress fracture. If so he's gone for a while.

In the 2010 NCAA Regional Tourney, reporters wrote stories after watching each of the 4 teams hold open practices. They indicated that 3 of the teams used that time to have fun and gun shoot arounds and dunk fests. Duke on the other hand, scrimmaged like it was the title game, and were getting after each other hard. As we know, that Duke team had one wing as a reserve, and the two Plums in the normal rotation of bigs. No backup PG, and no backup SF. Yet K had them going hard.

I definitely see the danger of risk of injury, but I suppose K takes the view that injuries can happen any time any where, so he seems to not fear injury there. He has the same philosophy with the Durham Summer League at Central. All of the guys are encouraged to play and most do. After the Leslie McDonald injury, I think Roy pulled his guys out, but K let the Duke kids play up until they had to leave for China.

Just differing philosophy I suppose. Your point has merit. Just not sure K views it that way..

[davekay1971]

The fact that Ryan is going to be further evaluated after the seedings makes me wonder if someone doesn't think it might be a stress fracture. If so he's gone for a while.

Or it could be that the ortho clinic isn't open on Sunday. They've already evaluated Kelly's ankle. What's the difference between doing a routine re-eval on Sunday versus Monday, except the orthopaedic surgeon having to leave his/her family and come to work on a weekend?

Maybe you're right and plotting around the selection/seeding is driving the timing of the re-eval, but there are other, perfectly logical explanations.

[Zeke]

Or it could be that the ortho clinic isn't open on Sunday. They've already evaluated Kelly's ankle. What's the difference between doing a routine re-eval on Sunday versus Monday, except the orthopaedic surgeon having to leave his/her family and come to work on a weekend?

Maybe you're right and plotting around the selection/seeding is driving the timing of the re-eval, but there are other, perfectly logical explanations.

For Duke athletes and particularly the basketball and football teams they are there 24/7. At basketball games (at least at home - I don't know about away) they have an orthopedist on the bench. If they wanted a CT scan or MR scan they would get it within hours.

[OldPhiKap]

Is there some time today that we could expect an update?

[MCFinARL]

For Duke athletes and particularly the basketball and football teams they are there 24/7. At basketball games (at least at home - I don't know about away) they have an orthopedist on the bench. If they wanted a CT scan or MR scan they would get it within hours.

Sure--but the team probably wasn't going to be practicing over the weekend, since they were playing in the ACCT, and the decision had already been made that Kelly wasn't playing in the tournament. So maybe there was really no reason to reevaluate before today. I'm sure whatever exercise (if any) or therapy could have been helpful to Kelly over the weekend was already prescribed and he was doing it.

[davekay1971]

For Duke athletes and particularly the basketball and football teams they are there 24/7. At basketball games (at least at home - I don't know about away) they have an orthopedist on the bench. If they wanted a CT scan or MR scan they would get it within hours.

Well, of course they have one of the orthopods during games - standard practice for any major basketball or football program. I'm not suggesting that for an acute injury, either in game or practice, they wouldn't do an evaluation on the weekend - of course they would. I am merely suggesting there isn't much reason to drag in the staff to do a routine re-exam on Sunday when you can do it during normal business hours on Monday morning. I don't think we need to consider NCAA committee manipulation as a rationale for doing the re-exam on Monday instead of Sunday.

FWIW, I would assume that that the orthopod, as long as he was there for the Saturday game, DID do a physical exam of Kelly's ankle in the locker room. But I still doubt that the selection process has anything at all to do with the scheduling of repeat exams or the reporting of those findings.

[House G]

For Duke athletes and particularly the basketball and football teams they are there 24/7. At basketball games (at least at home - I don't know about away) they have an orthopedist on the bench. If they wanted a CT scan or MR scan they would get it within hours.

I believe the ortho doc on the Kentucky bench prefers a CAT scan.

[Newton_14]

Just a reminder to everyone. Kelly has a foot sprain. It is not an ankle sprain. Capel indicated on the radio this morning that they should know more on Ryan sometime today. I am getting nervous about how bad this is. We need him back in the lineup sooner than later.

[mgtr]

I believe the ortho doc on the Kentucky bench prefers a CAT scan.

Good one! So, I suppose the doc at Middle Rhode Island State prefers an MRI?

[MChambers]

Good one! So, I suppose the doc at Middle Rhode Island State prefers an MRI?
And at Xavier the doctor relies on old-fashioned X-rays?

[Matches]

And at Xavier the doctor relies on old-fashioned X-rays?

Lehigh uses leeches.

[Zeke]

Well, of course they have one of the orthopods during games - standard practice for any major basketball or football program. I'm not suggesting that for an acute injury, either in game or practice, they wouldn't do an evaluation on the weekend - of course they would. I am merely suggesting there isn't much reason to drag in the staff to do a routine re-exam on Sunday when you can do it during normal business hours on Monday morning. I don't think we need to consider NCAA committee manipulation as a rationale for doing the re-exam on Monday instead of Sunday.

FWIW, I would assume that that the orthopod, as long as he was there for the Saturday game, DID do a physical exam of Kelly's ankle in the locker room. But I still doubt that the selection process has anything at all to do with the scheduling of repeat exams or the reporting of those findings.

My point is that they didn't want to officially know until Monday. If it was known that Ryan was out of the NCAA tournament it would have affected the seeding. By the way, you are not dragging anyone in on Sunday - Duke Hospital operates 24/7. They are already there.

[MCFinARL]

Lehigh uses leeches.

And Eastern Kentucky uses EKGs. (don't have anything for the G, stretching, I know)

[nolan8or]

@ESPNU: #UNC Henson & #DUKE Kelly are on a day-to-day basis right now with their injuries. May not know until game time if they're good to go. #CBBL

[coldriver10]

My point is that they didn't want to officially know until Monday. If it was known that Ryan was out of the NCAA tournament it would have affected the seeding. By the way, you are not dragging anyone in on Sunday - Duke Hospital operates 24/7. They are already there.
There are limited hours that MRI technologists (if that's what he got done, I don't know) are actually in the hospital on weekends...outside of that window, they have to be called in. Granted this is how it works if he were to be imaged at Duke Hospital...if he were to get his study at Duke Sports Medicine, then I'm sure they have difficult protocols.

[wilko]

Lehigh uses leeches.

Well sure, it helps balance the bodily humors.

[jv001]

I heard Coach K being interviewed by Andy Katz this afternoon and Coach said Ryan has an insert in his shoe and is walking around ok. He said that Ryan may practice Thursday in what was described as a shoot-around. He then said if he's not able to go Friday, maybe he would be ready for the next game. I don't like these foot injuries Duke seems to get. I hope Ryan is a quick healer and is ready go go soon. GoDuke!

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I heard Coach K being interviewed by Andy Katz this afternoon and Coach said Ryan has an insert in his shoe and is walking around ok. He said that Ryan may practice Thursday in what was described as a shoot-around. He then said if he's not able to go Friday, maybe he would be ready for the next game. I don't like these foot injuries Duke seems to get. I hope Ryan is a quick healer and is ready go go soon. GoDuke!


Yeah right? It wouldn't be a real Duke season without a foot injury sheesh.

The foot can be tricky, but the good news is that if Kelly is feeling better, he will likely elect to play...if its his choice

[sporthenry]

Yeah right? It wouldn't be a real Duke season without a foot injury sheesh.

The foot can be tricky, but the good news is that if Kelly is feeling better, he will likely elect to play...if its his choice

But if it is just feeling better, I'd prefer us to pull a Henson with UNC and dress him and if we need him, to use him. Obviously, you'd be more liberal in that since its win or go home but if we can go the game without him or perhaps just put him in intermittently to get him back into game shape would be ideal. If we don't have him on Sunday, I suspect it'll be a dog fight but the fact he isn't even trying til Thursday means that its another nagging foot injury.

[Newton_14]

Wojo was on the Adam Gold show this afternoon and made the comment "If we can take care of business, we hope to get Ryan back". Not sure if that was a slip or what, but I got the impression it meant Ryan would miss at least one of the games this weekend. Adam and Joe did not press him on it, and Wojo never clarified. Just mentioned that Ryan was improving then they transitioned into discussion on the team. The staff was pleased with the effort and defense in Atlanta, but were disappointed in the rebounding and the offense. Lots of work this week on fixing the offensive issues. They felt Josh stepped up in a big way and improved quite a bit. I agree with that. I thought Josh acquitted himself very well with his play. He has come a long way since October.

Was really hoping to have Ryan back Friday, but based on hearing Capel this morning, and Wojo this afternoon, not getting my hopes up that he takes the floor Friday night.

[OldPhiKap]

Well sure, it helps balance the bodily humors.

"Hey! -- who's the barber here?!?"

[CDu]

Wojo was on the Adam Gold show this afternoon and made the comment "If we can take care of business, we hope to get Ryan back". Not sure if that was a slip or what, but I got the impression it meant Ryan would miss at least one of the games this weekend. Adam and Joe did not press him on it, and Wojo never clarified. Just mentioned that Ryan was improving then they transitioned into discussion on the team. The staff was pleased with the effort and defense in Atlanta, but were disappointed in the rebounding and the offense. Lots of work this week on fixing the offensive issues. They felt Josh stepped up in a big way and improved quite a bit. I agree with that. I thought Josh acquitted himself very well with his play. He has come a long way since October.

Was really hoping to have Ryan back Friday, but based on hearing Capel this morning, and Wojo this afternoon, not getting my hopes up that he takes the floor Friday night.

Well, I don't think we will need Kelly on Friday. And if he's not 100%, I'd not want to risk his future availability in a game we should win without him. Obviously the medical staff knows what's best, so whatever they decide will be what's best. But I'd much rather have him available for Sunday and (hopefully) beyond.

[davekay1971]

My point is that they didn't want to officially know until Monday. If it was known that Ryan was out of the NCAA tournament it would have affected the seeding. By the way, you are not dragging anyone in on Sunday - Duke Hospital operates 24/7. They are already there.

I'm a cardiologist, Zeke, and a heck of a lot more of my job involves emergencies than does an orthopedic surgeon's. So trust me when I tell you that even at major university hospitals, most of what is done on the weekends is happening with the minimum necessary staff. Baptist, in Winston-Salem, a 800+ bed tertiary care hospital calls in staff specifically for routine things like stress tests and echoes. So, while the MRI scanner is up and running, it's staffed to do the emergencies, the exams that absolutely cannot wait until Monday. The radiologist to read the MRI is probably also reading most of the exams in the hospital, and the ER CT scans and MRIs are not going to take a back seat to Ryan Kelly's repeat ankle scan. And I guarantee you the ortho office is closed, and, while the doc may be perfectly happy to come in and see Kelly and K on Sunday, his medical assistant and nurse are probably not.

All I'm suggesting is that waiting till Monday to do the re-exam probably has a much more plausible and mundane reason than giving the NCAA committee the mushroom treatment.

[UrinalCake]

Well, I don't think we will need Kelly on Friday. And if he's not 100%, I'd not want to risk his future availability in a game we should win without him. Obviously the medical staff knows what's best, so whatever they decide will be what's best. But I'd much rather have him available for Sunday and (hopefully) beyond.

Absolutely don't want to risk further injury, but if he's not going to hurt things any worse then it'd be great to at least get him onto the court for a few minutes on friday. The farther we advance, the harder it will be for him to shake off the rust as our opponents get harder and his layoff gets longer.

[greybeard]

Well, I don't think we will need Kelly on Friday. And if he's not 100%, I'd not want to risk his future availability in a game we should win without him. Obviously the medical staff knows what's best, so whatever they decide will be what's best. But I'd much rather have him available for Sunday and (hopefully) beyond.

100%? This isn't like going to the mechanic with a complaint, the mechanic determines the cause, and fixes it. Ryan will not be 100% for a long, long while, and probably forever. For the rest of this season, he will hopefully just have a low level pain'/ache, that will spike at times, usally when, even with the tape, the ankle/foot wll buckle slightly, and hopefully as the game progresses he will be enured to the incressed soreness that will ensue.

The pain, discomfort will resolve itself with time, the leg will be brought back to strength slowly, the PTs will do some flexion and extension pushes and pulls, maybe lots of them, and "all better." "All better" is for kids who flop and bruise a knee. Ankle, feet injuries, cause imbalances that last forever, and unless you get a PT who has training in some other modality that works very gentlly and explores the myriad types of movement the foot/ankle must make while playing the game (there has to be a gizzillion vectors), feet/ankles, and their impact on other parts of the body having to shoulder more of the stress movement creates than they should, should be addressed as a regular routine in a player's workout, warm up, and on going movement-education regimen for a long, long time.

The irony is that after a number of months, certainly by the start of the preseason, Ryans play will show no iscernible negative impact, although he may well develop a slightly different way of shooting, stopping, timing his play. No one will notice it, but he will. His new ways might even improve his game. Down the road, the restrictions of movement in that foot will have caused problems and the problems with the foot itself will be discernible.

As for the rest of this season, the best you hope for is that the foot is not really sore while Ryan plays, that with tape and all the therapies that they can throw at him, he'll be able to meaningfully contribute. He might even look more for catch and shoots and shoot even better than norma. But, 100%, nope. Just ask Tiger (some might recall that I said that we had seen the "last" of Tiger as "Tiger" after he won that open at Torrey Pines with two stress fractures and a whacked out knee, and that it was idiotic for him to have played in that condition. He seems now to agree. In fact, he said so. The heads, who had been speculating for several years that it was his personal relationship problems with the issue, are finally coming around to understand that "all better" is not an option.

[crimsondevil]

100%? This isn't like going to the mechanic with a complaint, the mechanic determines the cause, and fixes it. Ryan will not be 100% for a long, long while, and probably forever.

Are you really suggesting that it is nearly impossible for a foot sprain of unknown severity suffered by a 20-year-old kid to heal completely? While it is certainly possible that RK will "never be the same again", the air of inevitability you seem to be conveying seems a bit... much.

[TruBlu]

I heard Coach K being interviewed by Andy Katz this afternoon and Coach said Ryan has an insert in his shoe and is walking around ok. He said that Ryan may practice Thursday in what was described as a shoot-around. He then said if he's not able to go Friday, maybe he would be ready for the next game. I don't like these foot injuries Duke seems to get. I hope Ryan is a quick healer and is ready go go soon. GoDuke!

Please tell me that the insert is not a homemade version created by cutting up a tennis ball!

[jv001]

Please tell me that the insert is not a homemade version created by cutting up a tennis ball!

No, I don't think it's a homemade version, but one made by professionals. If I remember correctly, Coach K said it was a shell type insert. I have no idea what that is and I won't even guess. I just hope it works. GoDuke!

[MChambers]

Please tell me that the insert is not a homemade version created by cutting up a tennis ball!
Excellent Shav reference.

Sounds like we shouldn't expect to see Ryan this weekend. Hope he recovers quickly and completely. Kyrie's recovery seems to have worked out well.

[sagegrouse]

No, I don't think it's a homemade version, but one made by professionals. If I remember correctly, Coach K said it was a shell type insert. I have no idea what that is and I won't even guess. I just hope it works. GoDuke!

Sounds like the custom boot liners that make ski boots fit, although those are usually just insoles. I presume a shell means it has support on the sides and/or top of the feet.

sagegrouse

[Zeke]

I'm a cardiologist, Zeke, and a heck of a lot more of my job involves emergencies than does an orthopedic surgeon's. So trust me when I tell you that even at major university hospitals, most of what is done on the weekends is happening with the minimum necessary staff. Baptist, in Winston-Salem, a 800+ bed tertiary care hospital calls in staff specifically for routine things like stress tests and echoes. So, while the MRI scanner is up and running, it's staffed to do the emergencies, the exams that absolutely cannot wait until Monday. The radiologist to read the MRI is probably also reading most of the exams in the hospital, and the ER CT scans and MRIs are not going to take a back seat to Ryan Kelly's repeat ankle scan. And I guarantee you the ortho office is closed, and, while the doc may be perfectly happy to come in and see Kelly and K on Sunday, his medical assistant and nurse are probably not.

All I'm suggesting is that waiting till Monday to do the re-exam probably has a much more plausible and mundane reason than giving the NCAA committee the mushroom treatment.
Been there done that - spent 6 years at Duke Med School and Hospital. There are always trauma patients in the ER. At least back in the day athletes were always popping in for one thing and another.
I'm surprised that a cardiologist would have more emergencies that an orthopedist. I use to think those guys lived in the hospital - with mva's resulting in broken arms/legs etc. Cardiologist I remember would only see one patient at a time while a good mva could result in 3 or more patients with fractures etc.
I may well be wrong not even seeing Ryan. But, as Ryan was hurt on Monday March 5th, if anyone thought that he might have a stress fracture, they certainly would not have to wait till Monday Mar 12th. What happens in between - the seedings.
I'm glad to hear that he may be getting better and I hope he is, but tall guys with foot injuries stress fracture are always a big consideration.

[ChemGod]

I'm a cardiologist, Zeke, and a heck of a lot more of my job involves emergencies than does an orthopedic surgeon's. So trust me when I tell you that even at major university hospitals, most of what is done on the weekends is happening with the minimum necessary staff. Baptist, in Winston-Salem, a 800+ bed tertiary care hospital calls in staff specifically for routine things like stress tests and echoes. So, while the MRI scanner is up and running, it's staffed to do the emergencies, the exams that absolutely cannot wait until Monday. The radiologist to read the MRI is probably also reading most of the exams in the hospital, and the ER CT scans and MRIs are not going to take a back seat to Ryan Kelly's repeat ankle scan. And I guarantee you the ortho office is closed, and, while the doc may be perfectly happy to come in and see Kelly and K on Sunday, his medical assistant and nurse are probably not.

All I'm suggesting is that waiting till Monday to do the re-exam probably has a much more plausible and mundane reason than giving the NCAA committee the mushroom treatment.

Dude! Yer a cardiologist? Just think, we knew you way back when...

[oldnavy]

Been there done that - spent 6 years at Duke Med School and Hospital. There are always trauma patients in the ER. At least back in the day athletes were always popping in for one thing and another.
I'm surprised that a cardiologist would have more emergencies that an orthopedist. I use to think those guys lived in the hospital - with mva's resulting in broken arms/legs etc. Cardiologist I remember would only see one patient at a time while a good mva could result in 3 or more patients with fractures etc.
I may well be wrong not even seeing Ryan. But, as Ryan was hurt on Monday March 5th, if anyone thought that he might have a stress fracture, they certainly would not have to wait till Monday Mar 12th. What happens in between - the seedings.
I'm glad to hear that he may be getting better and I hope he is, but tall guys with foot injuries stress fracture are always a big consideration.

I've been told by an ortho surg once that there are few orthopedic "emergencies"... what he clarified was that most of the time the general practiconer or general surgeon would do their thing and get the patient stable and then the ortho guys (or gals) would come in and fix the bones usually the next day....

[greybeard]

Are you really suggesting that it is nearly impossible for a foot sprain of unknown severity suffered by a 20-year-old kid to heal completely? While it is certainly possible that RK will "never be the same again", the air of inevitability you seem to be conveying seems a bit... much.

What I am suggesting is that, if you need to miss games and wer a boot, an injury such as Ryan has, will stop hurting but will not regain "normal" function, without appropriate attention and then a self improvement/care regimen for the duration. If you have had an ankle episode such as this, get on a recumbant bike and notice whether that ankle/foot, can even with attention, rotate through the peddling in the same way the other side can, again paying attention to pronating onto the ball of the foot on the way down and than flexing the foot backward towards the shin on the way back up to your shin. I think you'll be in for a surprise.

What I am suggesting is that the foot/ankle will be frozen in terms of moving in other directions, for example, folding in the same direction that caused the injury. Now folding forcefully and/or too severe an angle, tht is, folding in the manner that caused the injury is certainly not what one is after. But flexion of the foot/ankle as one plants to go in a relatively opposite direction is important for a number of reasons; for our purposes, restrictions will cause more force to be imparted into the knew and/or hip joint than either should bear. Also, it could lead to a hibitual pattern that will limit the ability of the head of the tracanter (ball at top of the femur after a little branch (the tracanter) turns in, to rotate and move freely in the ascertabulum, that part of the pelvis that forms the socket for the ball and socket joint known as the hip. If that restriction in how the ball moves in the socket jpoint becomes habituated and you continue your atheltic/high end physical endeavers over time, well, why do so many former athletes who have never injured their hips have hip replacements.

I do not believe that Physical Therapists as a group will know how or even try to help create something much more nearly approaching "normal" functioning for the injured foot/ankle; by and large, I think that they rebulild strength in the calf muscles, work some on flexision and extension, and then send you on your way. What do you, the still injured athlete (just because it don't hurt does not mean it's "all better," do thereafter to find a way of self use that best keeps that foot/ankle area moving better and better overtime, and to organize him or her self better to adjust self use in the other parts of the body to avoid the rest of you to suffer long term issues? Go to a high end health club, with all their trainers, with all their massage people, with all their Yoga instructors, and ask them what kind of regimen you should employ as a normal and continuing feature of your fitness/wellness life time pursuit, and they will, it is my guess, stare at you blankly. The Yoga teacher will say that doing standing postures that put the feet/ankles to work in different ways will address those issues. But a posture with all the torque and force imparted will not send anything through your nervous system to your brain that will lead you to developing choice in how you function, that is move yourself.

So, there is a reason that with all the money thrown at health care in this country, I understand that we lead the world, and with the number of really high end health clubs we see (more ubiquitous than Starbuckses), why is it that we rank like 50th in the developed countries when it comes to health quality issues. At least when it comes to injuries to the muscular/skelletol systems is that we rely exclusively on MRI and all kinds of other scans, orthroscopic surgeries that make undergoing one of them like getting your teeth cleaned, and have a physical therapy system that too few resources have been put into and does not deal with the issue of improving function that "don't hurt." I could talk about how that system deals with trying to help someone who comes to them with shoulder pain, and the limitations that the approaches used have, but we do not have enough time and I am concerned that as an advocate I will be unable to give PT its proper due.

So, yes, if you injured your ankle, or injured it as a kid, sufficently that you could not play on it for a week and therefore still felt it for a while, for sure it has not healed, as in, it is not performing anywhere well enough in at least several important respects to be considered anywhere near "healed." It will cause you problems, perhaps even with your golf swing. Who knows how many reverse pivoters have thrown so much money on how to golf instruction to "get rid" of something that the reverse pivoter is stuck with unless he or she begins to do what they should have done in the first place, even though no doctor, PT, athletic trainer, etc, even thought to suggest it or, for that matter, would have the first clue as to how one should go about it.

The best I could suggest for everyone is to take a tennis ball and, in standing, place the soul of one foot on top of it and roll the ball around from the balls of the toes to the beginning of the heal. Do it slowly and do not try to crush the ball; use just enough pressure so that you can begin to feel yourself, where you actually are. The slow soft movements will also permit chronic patterns of holding in the leg muscles and perhaps up through the eye on that side of the body to relax. There is actually a more elaborate series of movements tht one can do with a six inch styrophom roller and a wall, but hey, I've answered your question as best I can.

K, Phil Jacson, Larry Brown, Pat Riley, all suburb athletes, to my knowledge never hurt their hips, backs, and perhaps even a knee. Sprained ankles, some severally, I bet that they couldn't even count the times; maybe they could tell you of when they really ripped it up, were on crushes for a week or so, and then tapped it up and played at 75 percent. The four of them, all top athletes with high "basketball" IQs, all with access to the best medical and training personnel money could buy, all four of them have had double hip replacements and not insignificant back issues. "Somethings happening here . . . ."

[jimsumner]

According to Mike Krzyzewski, Kelly is day-to-day. He worked out in a pool yesterday. He's been fitted for a special shoe. Duke hopes to get him on the court at Thursday's practice, see how it goes and take it from there.

[rsvman]

Dear Mr. Greybeard,

With all due respect, it's trochanter and acetabulum. If you're going to give us anatomy lectures, at least get the terms right.

[wilko]

"Hey! -- who's the barber here?!?"

Heh, Apologies.
I wasn't trying to horn in on your medical consultation fee.
Can I trust you for a shave? :cool:

[mkirsh]

What I am suggesting is that, if you need to miss games and wer a boot, an injury such as Ryan has, will stop hurting but will not regain "normal" function, without appropriate attention and then a self improvement/care regimen for the duration. If you have had an ankle episode such as this, get on a recumbant bike and notice whether that ankle/foot, can even with attention, rotate through the peddling in the same way the other side can, again paying attention to pronating onto the ball of the foot on the way down and than flexing the foot backward towards the shin on the way back up to your shin. I think you'll be in for a surprise.

What I am suggesting is that the foot/ankle will be frozen in terms of moving in other directions, for example, folding in the same direction that caused the injury. Now folding forcefully and/or too severe an angle, tht is, folding in the manner that caused the injury is certainly not what one is after. But flexion of the foot/ankle as one plants to go in a relatively opposite direction is important for a number of reasons; for our purposes, restrictions will cause more force to be imparted into the knew and/or hip joint than either should bear. Also, it could lead to a hibitual pattern that will limit the ability of the head of the tracanter (ball at top of the femur after a little branch (the tracanter) turns in, to rotate and move freely in the ascertabulum, that part of the pelvis that forms the socket for the ball and socket joint known as the hip. If that restriction in how the ball moves in the socket jpoint becomes habituated and you continue your atheltic/high end physical endeavers over time, well, why do so many former athletes who have never injured their hips have hip replacements.

I do not believe that Physical Therapists as a group will know how or even try to help create something much more nearly approaching "normal" functioning for the injured foot/ankle; by and large, I think that they rebulild strength in the calf muscles, work some on flexision and extension, and then send you on your way. What do you, the still injured athlete (just because it don't hurt does not mean it's "all better," do thereafter to find a way of self use that best keeps that foot/ankle area moving better and better overtime, and to organize him or her self better to adjust self use in the other parts of the body to avoid the rest of you to suffer long term issues? Go to a high end health club, with all their trainers, with all their massage people, with all their Yoga instructors, and ask them what kind of regimen you should employ as a normal and continuing feature of your fitness/wellness life time pursuit, and they will, it is my guess, stare at you blankly. The Yoga teacher will say that doing standing postures that put the feet/ankles to work in different ways will address those issues. But a posture with all the torque and force imparted will not send anything through your nervous system to your brain that will lead you to developing choice in how you function, that is move yourself.

So, there is a reason that with all the money thrown at health care in this country, I understand that we lead the world, and with the number of really high end health clubs we see (more ubiquitous than Starbuckses), why is it that we rank like 50th in the developed countries when it comes to health quality issues. At least when it comes to injuries to the muscular/skelletol systems is that we rely exclusively on MRI and all kinds of other scans, orthroscopic surgeries that make undergoing one of them like getting your teeth cleaned, and have a physical therapy system that too few resources have been put into and does not deal with the issue of improving function that "don't hurt." I could talk about how that system deals with trying to help someone who comes to them with shoulder pain, and the limitations that the approaches used have, but we do not have enough time and I am concerned that as an advocate I will be unable to give PT its proper due.

So, yes, if you injured your ankle, or injured it as a kid, sufficently that you could not play on it for a week and therefore still felt it for a while, for sure it has not healed, as in, it is not performing anywhere well enough in at least several important respects to be considered anywhere near "healed." It will cause you problems, perhaps even with your golf swing. Who knows how many reverse pivoters have thrown so much money on how to golf instruction to "get rid" of something that the reverse pivoter is stuck with unless he or she begins to do what they should have done in the first place, even though no doctor, PT, athletic trainer, etc, even thought to suggest it or, for that matter, would have the first clue as to how one should go about it.

The best I could suggest for everyone is to take a tennis ball and, in standing, place the soul of one foot on top of it and roll the ball around from the balls of the toes to the beginning of the heal. Do it slowly and do not try to crush the ball; use just enough pressure so that you can begin to feel yourself, where you actually are. The slow soft movements will also permit chronic patterns of holding in the leg muscles and perhaps up through the eye on that side of the body to relax. There is actually a more elaborate series of movements tht one can do with a six inch styrophom roller and a wall, but hey, I've answered your question as best I can.

K, Phil Jacson, Larry Brown, Pat Riley, all suburb athletes, to my knowledge never hurt their hips, backs, and perhaps even a knee. Sprained ankles, some severally, I bet that they couldn't even count the times; maybe they could tell you of when they really ripped it up, were on crushes for a week or so, and then tapped it up and played at 75 percent. The four of them, all top athletes with high "basketball" IQs, all with access to the best medical and training personnel money could buy, all four of them have had double hip replacements and not insignificant back issues. "Somethings happening here . . . ."

Well, we won a national title despite Jon Scheyer's disorganized pelvis, so maybe the after-effects of Ryan's injury are good news?

Just teasing Greybeard, I'm a big fan of your posts and appreciate the perspective you bring on biokinetics and physiology

[oldnavy]

Well, we won a national title despite Jon Scheyer's disorganized pelvis, so maybe the after-effects of Ryan's injury are good news?

Just teasing Greybeard, I'm a big fan of your posts and appreciate the perspective you bring on biokinetics and physiology

Is that what the heck he is talking about??:confused:

[davekay1971]

Been there done that - spent 6 years at Duke Med School and Hospital. There are always trauma patients in the ER. At least back in the day athletes were always popping in for one thing and another.

I'm surprised that a cardiologist would have more emergencies that an orthopedist. I use to think those guys lived in the hospital - with mva's resulting in broken arms/legs etc. Cardiologist I remember would only see one patient at a time while a good mva could result in 3 or more patients with fractures etc.

But, as Ryan was hurt on Monday March 5th, if anyone thought that he might have a stress fracture, they certainly would not have to wait till Monday Mar 12th. What happens in between - the seedings.

Addressed the cards vs ortho emergency issue in a PM off thread. Suffice to say, the orthopods on trauma bust their butts plenty.

WRT the stress fracture, you're absolutely right - if there was any suspicion I'd think they'd get the necessary testing right away. I can only assume the doc did appropriate testing to rule that out right after the initial injury (the 5th or, at the latest, the 6th). Hopefully what K is saying now is all good news. Would love to see him playing on Friday. If he's wearing the Memorial Kyring Irving Boot I may cry.

[WiJoe]

C'mon people. This thread has gotten so far off the tracks that if it was a train headed from Baltimore to New York it would be closing in on Dallas.

[wilko]

C'mon people. This thread has gotten so far off the tracks that if it was a train headed from Baltimore to New York it would be closing in on Dallas.

Well to be fair, anyone who really knows the status of Ryans foot, Amiles' current thinking and 2012 recruiting updates in general must have sworn a blood oath to secrecy... Cuz aint nobody saying squat about ANY of it..

When there is no news... make up some news..

[greybeard]

Well, we won a national title despite Jon Scheyer's disorganized pelvis, so maybe the after-effects of Ryan's injury are good news?

Just teasing Greybeard, I'm a big fan of your posts and appreciate the perspective you bring on biokinetics and physiology

You really don't want me to start talking about pelvises do you? ;)

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if Scheyer works regularly with a Feldenkrias practitioner in Tel Aviv; they are ubiquitous in Israel where the work is highly regarded in the wellness, injury recovery, movement/self-use/performance/ and education communities.

Bio Mechanics, as I understand it, is the study of how function can be maximized in an ideal, hypothetical body. Moshe understood that brains make muscles work, that brains and bodies vary widely, and he had no ambition or interest in trying to develop an ideal for people to strive for. He thought it important for a variety of reasons that people acquire the aability to develop options for self-use beyond habitual patterns, that they develop an understanding of how they function habitually, and to create environments and direct students towards developing a skill base for learning a variety of modes for performing the same function in different ways. He quite logically understood that, if exposed to various ways of performing a task, the brain's attention would be pulled to the one that was easiest, most efficient, the most pleasant, but that the ability to make easy that which was more difficult was atually even more valuable--everyone change, as do environments, and options therefore are invaluable. He often said and wrote, that what he was after was facile minds, not bodies; how people chose, once they had the ability to create choice, was not his interest or, as he saw it, any of his business.

So, while Feldenkrais' background as a mechanical engineer and Judo expert, and his self learned mastery of the biological sciences, certainly equiped him to understand what was ideally possible in terms of transmission of force through the skelleton, he was about dealing with individuals and helping them to develop the ability to chose how to do things that worked best for them. He met people where they were, never tried to change them.
His genuis was in developing strategies and insights that are remarkably effective. These strategies and insights have proved to be remarkably effective in helping people with considerable challenges learn to function in ways that defy conventional alopathic doctrine--children and adults with cerebal palsy, scoliosis, MS, strokes, loss of nerve or brain function etc; the work is extremely popular with musicians, dancers, actors and athletes.

People with serious isues that others could not help them with often found their way to him. That is why most of the people in this country find their way to "Feldenkrais;" they hear or read about t sometime or somewhere, think it interesting, and then, sometime down the road, find themselves in a situation that well, a light goes off, they find a practitioner and give it a go. A fair number of times, it helps.

Finally, let me say, I did not drink no cool aid. I have had way too many injuries to even bother to mention, but I will mention a few. Saddled between blowing out both knees, one when I was a junior in high school and the other playing ball freshman year in college, I was in a caste for three weeks for a torn ankle ligament. Fifteen years later, I had hairline fratures on the outside of each foot, right at the bottom of the ankle (three months apart). This past year, I have been working a whole lot on my feet and ankes.

You really would not believe what I have leared about my feet ankles, how changing and improving and finding movement has impacted other parts of me-knees, hip joints, pelvis, ribs, head carriage. Remarkable, but really hard to believe.

Later, it's me, Grey "they don't cal me Greybeard for nothing" beard

[Zeke]

I haven't heard anything about Ryan's reevaluation that was suppose to be done on Monday. Anyone know anything?

[OldPhiKap]

Heh, Apologies.
I wasn't trying to horn in on your medical consultation fee.
Can I trust you for a shave? :cool:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/3529/saturday-night-live-theodoric-of-york

[Tjenkins]

I hope they win it all, I'm confident this team can win it all. UK is loaded, but all it takes is one player to go cold or get into foul trouble.

But if Duke wins, it won't feel as good as the 1991 title. If this team doesn't win, it won't hurt as much as the loss in 1986.

[COYS]

I hope they win it all, I'm confident this team can win it all. UK is loaded, but all it takes is one player to go cold or get into foul trouble.

But if Duke wins, it won't feel as good as the 1991 title. If this team doesn't win, it won't hurt as much as the loss in 1986.

If Duke wins it all this season, there is at least a possibility the Title Game would be part three of this year's Duke/UNC rivalry. If that were the case and if Duke won, I don't know how it couldn't be basically the best thing ever for Duke fans, everywhere.

[mkirsh]

If Duke wins it all this season, there is at least a possibility the Title Game would be part three of this year's Duke/UNC rivalry. If that were the case and if Duke won, I don't know how it couldn't be basically the best thing ever for Duke fans, everywhere.

As long as we are dreaming, it's possible (though not likely) to see a scenario where Duke avenges 2 painful losses by beating UConn to get to the final four and then Louisville in the final four before taking down UNC for the title. Not sure if that would be sweeter than beating UK-Louisville-UNC or not, but either would probably cause my head to explode.

[wilko]

If Duke wins it all this season, there is at least a possibility the Title Game would be part three of this year's Duke/UNC rivalry. If that were the case and if Duke won, I don't know how it couldn't be basically the best thing ever for Duke fans, everywhere.

I openly welcome this opportunity as long as we WIN.
Some folks fear it because it would "upset" the balance of the rivalry. In truth; they fear losing.
I'm not anywhere near that benevolent in terms of the rivalry. I'd muck rather subjugate the Heels and have the ultimate trump card in the conversation. - But thats me

[mgtr]

I taught at an institution where one colleague, speaking of the successful Women's Basketball coach, said "she is a bad influence -- she expects to win every game." I just stood there with my mouth open. That was the last conversation I ever had with that colleague. Subsequently, I have learned, to my amazement, that many people say things like that. I have to assume that either a) they never played competitive athletics or b) they were so horrible that they always lost.

[Rogue]

As long as we are dreaming, it's possible (though not likely) to see a scenario where Duke avenges 2 painful losses by beating UConn to get to the final four and then Louisville in the final four before taking down UNC for the title. Not sure if that would be sweeter than beating UK-Louisville-UNC or not, but either would probably cause my head to explode.

Anyway you could throw UCLA in there some how and get rid of all my demons at once lol.. 1964 Walt Hazard .

[LBJFlight23]

http://www.accsports.com/blogs/david-glenn/2012031412470/david-glenn-chats-with-chris-collins-march-15.php

coach collins says r.kelly still hasnt really practiced but is day to day and is making progress. may do spot duty. anything we get from now on is "bonus" because we're prepping for the game like we don't have him.

but it doesn't sound like it's unlikely, just gotta give time.

[jv001]

Anyway you could throw UCLA in there some how and get rid of all my demons at once lol.. 1964 Walt Hazard .

I agree throw UCLA in there, but they can't even make the tournament these days. I really like Coach Wooden, but that '64 Duke team was one of my favorites. UCLA pressed us right out of a championship. GoDuke!

[DukeGirl4ever]

If anyone is attending practice today, would they be willing to share any insights on Ryan?

This PA Duke fan would appreciate it. I'm hoping for a "White Raven" sighting sometime this weekend, and from what I've read, it sounded like they may try RK in practice today.

[wilko]

Per Twitter -our own @DukeHoopBlog

ReTweeting @willbrinson: Ryan Kelly will not be able to play "rotation minutes" for #DUKE per Coach K. "Maybe some situational" minutes.

So some improvement... fingers crossed.

[wallyman]

Official statements and Twitter impressions of those watching Kelly at practice today, alas, not encouraging. Essentially out for Lehigh game and walking with a limp. Seems unlikely we get much from him this weekend. Really disappointing, be we go with what we've got.

[Greg_Newton]

I'm still skeptical we'll see Ryan in a significant role this month, if at all.


@DukeHoopBlog
RT @AJonesFoxSports Just watched Duke's practice and there is no way Ryan Kelly plays this weekend. I wonder how much he'll go next weekend.

[superdave]

I'm still skeptical we'll see Ryan in a significant role this month, if at all.

If that's the hand we are dealt, run trap press. Run like heck. I think that is the only shot we have at beating a Sweet 16 team, based on what we saw in the ACCT. We barely beat VT playing the same gameplan sans Ryan.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

If that's the hand we are dealt, run trap press. Run like heck. I think that is the only shot we have at beating a Sweet 16 team, based on what we saw in the ACCT. We barely beat VT playing the same gameplan sans Ryan.

I, for one, could not agree with you more! It wouldn't make sense to go small against Lehigh or ND(hoping!) but perhaps we could "practice" some Small Ball during the Lehigh game in the 2nd half to get ready for the regionals. I think up-tempo and trap/press would devastate Baylor(their TO avg is horrible!). Not sure how that would match up with UNLV or Kentucky but I know I don't like what I saw last week in Atlanta.

Potential "small ball" lineup:

1.Cook
2.Curry
3.Rivers
4.Dawkins
5.MP1/2

[Greg_Newton]

1.Cook
2.Curry
3.Rivers
4.Dawkins
5.MP1/2

That team would get absolutely destroyed off the dribble and on the boards. Cook and Curry as our starting defensive backcourt? Rivers and Dawkins guarding/rebounding the 3/4?

However, perhaps it's time to revisit the old trap/press thread from a couple months ago, now that we know Ryan is probably not going to be a major player for us. (link (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?27452-Should-Duke-Shift-To-A-Trapping-Full-Court-Press&highlight=press))

[Duke31122]

K said Kelly will play limited minutes Friday. He will be perfectly fine, just saving him for important games later on.

[chrishoke]

K said Kelly will play limited minutes Friday. He will be perfectly fine, just saving him for important games later on.

Link?

[wilko]

<sniff- sniff>
somethings burning... is that a red-shirt I smell?

I thought the REASON we didn't openly declare and file a red-shirt for some of our guys already this season is so that in case of an emergency we could break the glass - so to speak.. even tho that was the intent all along. Doing it after the season ends as opposed to the begining gives some wiggle room should a need arise.

Well if a guy only plays 6 games (albeit at the end of the year to win a NC) can he still redshirt?

Does the status of Ryans foot qualify as such a need to break the glass?

[DukeGirl4ever]

<sniff- sniff>
somethings burning... is that a red-shirt I smell?

I thought the REASON we didn't openly declare and file a red-shirt for some of our guys already this season is so that in case of an emergency we could break the glass - so to speak.. even tho that was the intent all along. Doing it after the season ends as opposed to the begining gives some wiggle room should a need arise.

Well if a guy only plays 6 games (albeit at the end of the year to win a NC) can he still redshirt?

Does the status of Ryans foot qualify as such a need to break the glass?

You can't redshirt after playing at the end of the year.
When I played, the rule was if you got hurt in the beginning of the year and played in a minimal amount of games, you could redshirt.


My friend at VT broke her wrist in the 11th game of the season. She was able to get a medical redshirt for that year.

EDIT - Unless the rules have changed since I played in the late 90's.

[David]

Link?

According to this article, it doesn't sound like Kelly is going to play except in a very unique situation (e.g. to shoot a critical foul shot...)

http://duke.scout.com/2/1168053.html

[Greg_Newton]

<sniff- sniff>
somethings burning... is that a red-shirt I smell?

I thought the REASON we didn't openly declare and file a red-shirt for some of our guys already this season is so that in case of an emergency we could break the glass - so to speak.. even tho that was the intent all along. Doing it after the season ends as opposed to the begining gives some wiggle room should a need arise.

Well if a guy only plays 6 games (albeit at the end of the year to win a NC) can he still redshirt?

Does the status of Ryans foot qualify as such a need to break the glass?

The "burning" of the redshirt means that the player doesn't get a redshirt. So yes, we could play Marshall or Alex (if they could even crack the rotation), but they would absolutely lose a year of eligibility.

So, you may want to check your stove. :p

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I attended the practice today and continue to be a bit concerned about Ryan's injury.

Ryan was walking at one end of the court while the rest of the team some of their drills. For a time he worked with one of the trainers. Toward the end of practice, he began to shoot at various spots between the basket and the free throw line. He was not jumping at all and only a little lift in his heels when he shot..... the ball was going in well, but his motion in shooting was carefully controlled and not natural....... yet.

[wallyman]

K said Kelly will play limited minutes Friday. He will be perfectly fine, just saving him for important games later on.

Well, I certainly hope he'll be perfectly fine sooner or later, though Greybeard has his own take on that one. But he's not going to be perfectly fine anytime soon. Very little chance he'll be any help this weekend and it's obvious he may not be able to help much next weekend either, if we're still in business. They're all important games at this point, so it would be great if he were perfectly fine but, alas, he's not.

[UrinalCake]

Thanks for the update, Devil In The Blue Dress. From what you describe, it sure doesn't sound like he's ready to go. As far as the redshirts, there is no actual act of "declaring" a redshirt. If a guy just doesn't play all year, then it doesn't count towards his four years of eligibility. So yes, we could play Marshall or Alex at any time and they would lose this year. We discussed this some before the ACCT and it didn't sound like it was worth it, for a number of reasons. In Alex's case it would make more sense to simply play Gbinije more, and in Marshall's case we'd rather play Hairston as he has more experience.

I also have doubts about the four guard offense, but it of course all depends on matchups. Maybe we could use it for a couple minute spurt but I don't see us playing it the whole game.

[Greg_Newton]

K said Kelly will play limited minutes Friday. He will be perfectly fine, just saving him for important games later on.

As previously mentioned, I'm pretty sure the first sentence isn't true, but did you see someone else say the second, or that your opinion?

I still think it's unlikely we see him before next fall.

[jv001]

Thanks for the update, Devil In The Blue Dress. From what you describe, it sure doesn't sound like he's ready to go. As far as the redshirts, there is no actual act of "declaring" a redshirt. If a guy just doesn't play all year, then it doesn't count towards his four years of eligibility. So yes, we could play Marshall or Alex at any time and they would lose this year. We discussed this some before the ACCT and it didn't sound like it was worth it, for a number of reasons. In Alex's case it would make more sense to simply play Gbinije more, and in Marshall's case we'd rather play Hairston as he has more experience.

I also have doubts about the four guard offense, but it of course all depends on matchups. Maybe we could use it for a couple minute spurt but I don't see us playing it the whole game.

Light it up Andre. It's your time young man. Be hungry and play as hard as you've ever played in your life. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

<sniff- sniff>
somethings burning... is that a red-shirt I smell?

I thought the REASON we didn't openly declare and file a red-shirt for some of our guys already this season is so that in case of an emergency we could break the glass - so to speak.. even tho that was the intent all along. Doing it after the season ends as opposed to the begining gives some wiggle room should a need arise.



There is no paperwork to a "red shirt" -- it is merely the consequence of "not playing." If, at the end of the season, a scholarship player, or any student, has not appeared in a game, then that student-athlete has not used up a year of eligibility. Therefore, K does not announce a "red shirt" season for a player because there is no such concept in the NCAA rules.

The limit, of course, is that any college athlete has five years from matriculation to complete his or her four years of eligibility. And, of course, there are exceptions granted due to injury, illness or maybe even other factors.

sage

[ThePublisher]

Light it up Andre. It's your time young man. Be hungry and play as hard as you've ever played in your life. GoDuke!

Dre all day is the key! Guys have to play with energy on O and D, something we have yet to do for a full 40 minutes all season. This team can be special and go far, even all the way, if these guys can commit for 6 full games. I haven't seen it yet but in spurts, but if they put it together...

Energy and confidence!

[Tucknut]

I was also at practice today. Gotta love it when Greensboro Coliseum allows fans to watch practice.
At times, Ryan walked with a noticeable limp. No running, no jumping. I'd be surprised if he plays tomorrow.
But it was nice to finally get a chance to see Alex and Marshall practicing. I look forward to seeing them in action next year.

[Chris Randolph]

Thanks for the updates. Feel sorry for Ryan, what crappy timing. Hopefully he will not be needed against Lehigh and can contribute at some point in the tournament.

[FerryFor50]

If he's not ready, don't play him. I don't think he'll be as necessary against Lehigh and Notre Dame/Xavier. They don't play the same type of game FSU plays... I think Duke could escape the weekend without Kelly and have him much closer to 100% next week.

Plus, if you think he stunk at taking charges before... how bad would he be at it with a bum foot?

[Jderf]

Plus, if you think he stunk at taking charges before... how bad would he be at it with a bum foot?

Actually, wouldn't he really be way better at drawing charges? He won't be able to move his foot around all that much, so it will be as if his feet are always set. :rolleyes:

[FerryFor50]

Actually, wouldn't he really be way better at drawing charges? He won't be able to move his foot around all that much, so it will be as if his feet are always set. :rolleyes:

You could look at it that way...

or you could say "he wouldn't be able to get into position fast enough." :D

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, drawing charges isn't about just falling down. It's about beating your man to the spot.

[Jderf]

You could look at it that way...

or you could say "he wouldn't be able to get into position fast enough." :D


Yeah, drawing charges isn't about just falling down. It's about beating your man to the spot.

Believe it or not guys, I wasn't seriously suggesting that a sprained foot would somehow improve Ryan's charge-drawing abilities. :)

[FerryFor50]

Believe it or not guys, I wasn't seriously suggesting that a sprained foot would somehow improve Ryan's charge-drawing abilities. :)

Oh I believe it!

[ThePublisher]

I bet his foot is healed before our next game...

[Greg_Newton]

I'm still interested to hear how this plays out. I still think Ryan might need a good couple months rest to really heal, but this should be such an important summer for him.

Guess that's the upside of losing in mid-March... two months rest still means mid-May.

[crimsondevil]

I bet his foot is healed before our next game...

Not according to greybeard! ;)

[Bluedog]

Ryan had surgery on his foot today and will be out 6-8 weeks...I don't think people realized how much he meant to this team when it occurred, but we definitely need Maui Invite Ryan next season!

http://twitter.com/#!/dukeblueplanet

[DukeGirl4ever]

Ryan had surgery on his foot today and will be out 6-8 weeks...I don't think people realized how much he meant to this team when it occurred, but we definitely need Maui Invite Ryan next season!

http://twitter.com/#!/dukeblueplanet

I read the GoDuke article and didn't find any useful information.

Does anyone have any information on what procedure he had done and/or what was specifically wrong with his foot?