was redshirting Alex Murphy the right choice?

[uh_no]

After our defensive woes all season and our lack of perimeter rebounding, many have bemoaned the lack of the traditional wing/3/singler guy.

Now I konw Alex was injured at the start of the season and then the choice was made to red shirt him, but one has to wonder if a guy like him could have helped us out tonight.

Now, I know that freshmen are freshmen (especially young ones), as we saw when Quinn was hyped to death and hasn't been the major contributor many here thought he would be, so I avoid saying unequivocally "Alex would have won us the game tonight and we'd be a lot better"

but do people think that after a season of being here, had he been playing, that he might currently be a major contributor, or at least tempered some of the troubles we've had from our lack of a three?

We'll never know, but it may be fun to see how he does next year to know whether he would have been able to help us this year.

[dukelifer]

After our defensive woes all season and our lack of perimeter rebounding, many have bemoaned the lack of the traditional wing/3/singler guy.

Now I konw Alex was injured at the start of the season and then the choice was made to red shirt him, but one has to wonder if a guy like him could have helped us out tonight.

Now, I know that freshmen are freshmen (especially young ones), as we saw when Quinn was hyped to death and hasn't been the major contributor many here thought he would be, so I avoid saying unequivocally "Alex would have won us the game tonight and we'd be a lot better"

but do people think that after a season of being here, had he been playing, that he might currently be a major contributor, or at least tempered some of the troubles we've had from our lack of a three?

We'll never know, but it may be fun to see how he does next year to know whether he would have been able to help us this year.

A bit of wishful thinking here. Murphy is a Freshman and a young one at that. He may have been more overwhelmed by the moment of the big game. We had Juniors who were overwhelmed. If you are talking about the Alex Murphy three years from now-I would agree. That guy would have helped.

[jv001]

After our defensive woes all season and our lack of perimeter rebounding, many have bemoaned the lack of the traditional wing/3/singler guy.

Now I konw Alex was injured at the start of the season and then the choice was made to red shirt him, but one has to wonder if a guy like him could have helped us out tonight.

Now, I know that freshmen are freshmen (especially young ones), as we saw when Quinn was hyped to death and hasn't been the major contributor many here thought he would be, so I avoid saying unequivocally "Alex would have won us the game tonight and we'd be a lot better"

but do people think that after a season of being here, had he been playing, that he might currently be a major contributor, or at least tempered some of the troubles we've had from our lack of a three?

We'll never know, but it may be fun to see how he does next year to know whether he would have been able to help us this year.

I thought that redshirting was Alex's decision. GoDuke!

[CDu]

After our defensive woes all season and our lack of perimeter rebounding, many have bemoaned the lack of the traditional wing/3/singler guy.

Now I konw Alex was injured at the start of the season and then the choice was made to red shirt him, but one has to wonder if a guy like him could have helped us out tonight.

Now, I know that freshmen are freshmen (especially young ones), as we saw when Quinn was hyped to death and hasn't been the major contributor many here thought he would be, so I avoid saying unequivocally "Alex would have won us the game tonight and we'd be a lot better"

but do people think that after a season of being here, had he been playing, that he might currently be a major contributor, or at least tempered some of the troubles we've had from our lack of a three?

We'll never know, but it may be fun to see how he does next year to know whether he would have been able to help us this year.

Sort of a moot point. It was apparently Murphy's decision to redshirt. And there's still (hopefully) a lot of this year left to go.

Hopefully he's fantastic for us next year. It will be nice to have him and Marshall join the mix. Murphy will give us some more versatility. If Mason sticks around for his senior year, we become very interesting.

[uh_no]

I thought that redshirting was Alex's decision. GoDuke!

ah, did not realize that. was it marshall's decision as well?

[Greg_Newton]

Obviously, we can't really answer your question, because we don't see practices, and it's hard to complain about our overall record thus far.

However... I've been pretty vocal all year in my opinion that we were making ourselves very vulnerable on defense and the boards by going with such a small, unathletic perimeter; exhibit A was tonight. When K unofficially designated AR our SF and decided to start two little guards a long with him in Dec/Jan, I thought it was a mistake and I still do. Groom AR at lead guard, focus on bring along Gbinije/Murphy, and you've got a chance to have a team that's in top-tier physically. Given our current makeup, we have to play beyond ourselves or shoot lights out to beat top 5-10 teams.

I suppose that could be the best our roster would have given us, and the above strategy would have expanded the rotation past what K's comfortable with. But it's certainly one of those points I've differed with him on.

[jv001]

ah, did not realize that. was it marshall's decision as well?

I can't answer that one uh-no. GoDuke!

[roywhite]

A bit of wishful thinking here. Murphy is a Freshman and a young one at that. He may have been more overwhelmed by the moment of the big game. We had Juniors who were overwhelmed. If you are talking about the Alex Murphy three years from now-I would agree. That guy would have helped.

Hard to evaluate the red shirt choice for sure now:
Would Murphy have played some and helped some this year?
Will he stay and play 4 more years (frankly, if he plays 3 years, finishes his academics, graduates, and leaves, the red shirt will have served no particular purpose)

On one of Coach K's TV shows, he described Alex as a kid who could be a 4-year starter and reach all-conference.
That would be nice, and would certainly justify the red shirt decision IMO.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Jeff Capel said yesterday that Alex needs to develop confidence. He's grown an inch and gotten much stronger (he needs to do more of that over the summer), and he'll be a very valuable player for us next year, but he needs to develop confidence in his abilities. If he has 1/10th the confidence and swagger that Austin does, it will serve him very well next year. He doesn't have that now. That's why redshirting was the right decision for him this year.

[Kedsy]

After our defensive woes all season and our lack of perimeter rebounding, many have bemoaned the lack of the traditional wing/3/singler guy.

Now I konw Alex was injured at the start of the season and then the choice was made to red shirt him, but one has to wonder if a guy like him could have helped us out tonight.

I doubt he would have helped. Barnes only scored 16 points, and it's not realistic to expect a freshman wing to drastically improve our overall team defense.

[duke09hms]

I think another question in the same vein - should K have played Gbinije a little more, let him play through the freshman mistakes, so we wouldn't have a huge hole in our roster in term of matchups?

Sure I know, K has high expectations and what he saw in practice wasn't up to Duke standards. But you have to ask, is half a SF better than no SF? Coach K ain't perfect, and I think he may have dropped the ball on Mike's potential contribution to the team as a big wing defender with lateral quickness.

[DukieTiger]

I doubt he would have helped. Barnes only scored 16 points, and it's not realistic to expect a freshman wing to drastically improve our overall team defense.

Our team defense was mainly bad because of poor defensive rebounding. We were bad on the defensive glass because you have the Plumlees trying to rebound against 4 6'7+ guys who are all crashing the boards. I think a third player over 6'5 might have helped with that. Personal opinion.

The foundational weakness in this Duke team is a lack of versatility in its roster. It is what it is. We just don't have the moveable parts this year that we've had in years past. We have depth, but lack what I believe K calls "deep depth." That's where the hope for a Gbinije or a Murphy to step up and contribute comes from. Clearly, that's not happening this year and we will just have to enjoy the ride that this particular, weirdly constructed, fun to watch, fights-like-crazy team.

[uh_no]

I think another question in the same vein - should K have played Gbinije a little more, let him play through the freshman mistakes, so we wouldn't have a huge hole in our roster in term of matchups?

Sure I know, K has high expectations and what he saw in practice wasn't up to Duke standards. But you have to ask, is half a SF better than no SF? Coach K ain't perfect, and I think he may have dropped the ball on Mike's potential contribution to the team as a big wing defender with lateral quickness.

That might be even more valid question than my original one. I'm usually not one to be critical of K's personnel decisions, but one has to wonder.

Of course its a second guess of K, bug half of the things suggested are.....so its more of a pondering what might have been different rather than saying any decision was flat out wrong.

I think, as bad as it may sound, that coach K is really coaching for next year. Now, he's not trying to sabatoge this season, but I think when making major decisions (such as redshirting, player development, playing time, etc) the questins are as follows in order of importance:

1) which will be better for next years team
2) if it doesn't make any difference to next year, what is best for this years team

Now, every coach has to think for the future, but how much you do so depends on the makeup of the current team. I wonder if K's thought process this year was "we lost 3 of the best players in the country, we're not very experienced, and we have a lot of growing to do....our next best chance to be a great team is next year, so That is the ultimate goal" and then once he has decided what he needs to do for next year (which would involve redshirts, playing gbinje less? getting quinn and tyler appropriate amounts of PT) he can give whatever is left the best shot of winning this year.

I think some of this opinion stems from his saying a few times at the beginning of the year that we were young, growing, etc...and asking for patience.

shrug....just a bit of a conspiracy i guess

[Kedsy]

But you have to ask, is half a SF better than no SF?

In my mind, the answer to this pretty much has to be no. We've had plenty of Duke teams who played three guards and no "true" small forwards. In his few minutes, Michael has not looked like a contributor on either offense or defense.

Also, I disagree with the notion that if you don't play in games you're not developing. Game minutes help to some extent, but practice is where most development takes place, and if a player isn't overcoming his freshman mistakes in practice, it's hard to imagine his being a big contributor in games.

[Ian]

Really won't know the answer to this one until we know what Alex's senior campaign will be like.

[Kedsy]

Our team defense was mainly bad because of poor defensive rebounding.

I completely disagree with this assessment. Over the course of the season, our defensive rebounding has been pretty good by Duke standards. In fact, our defensive rebounding percentage (68.7%) is actually the 2nd best Duke team performance in the past 12 years (probably longer than that, but I only checked back through the 2000-01 championship season). Ironically, the only Duke team in those 12 years with a better defensive rebounding percentage than this year's team was the 2006-07 team (69.6%).

Our team defense has been subpar because we often fail to stop guard penetration and don't always rotate properly on help defense, thus giving our opponents too many easy layup opportunities. And also because we don't force so many turnovers. I strongly doubt a freshman wing would be able to help in those areas.

[DukieTiger]

I completely disagree with this assessment. Over the course of the season, our defensive rebounding has been pretty good by Duke standards. In fact, our defensive rebounding percentage (68.7%) is actually the 2nd best Duke team performance in the past 12 years (probably longer than that, but I only checked back through the 2000-01 championship season). Ironically, the only Duke team in those 12 years with a better defensive rebounding percentage than this year's team was the 2006-07 team (69.6%).

Our team defense has been subpar because we often fail to stop guard penetration and don't always rotate properly on help defense, thus giving our opponents too many easy layup opportunities. And also because we don't force so many turnovers. I strongly doubt a freshman wing would be able to help in those areas.

Well I was talking about tonight, not the season. We got murdered on the boards tonight.

I realize my second paragraph was referring to the entire season. I think our lack of versatility has a lot to do with the problems you mentioned as well. I wasn't saying defensive rebounding was the primary defensive weakness on the season. Just tonight. Although in 2 of our previous 4 losses this season we have given up close to 45% offensive rebounding %, and tonight UNC exceeded 45%. I think it's absolutely a primary reason we lost tonight.

[1999ballboy]

Maybe he could have given us minutes here and there, but it's hard to say that he would be any better than Hairston or Gbinije this year. He looked like he was in over his head in the exhibition games. I think he'll be good, but I think it's fair to say in retrospect that all of the Singler comparisons that came up when he was in high school were blown out of proportion and should have been taken to refer to style, not quality, of play.

It would have been fun if Singler and Barnes could have competed for more than one year. That was a matchup for the ages.

[elvis14]

I was thinking about this the other day. I knew that it was Alex's idea to redshirt. My thoughts were that I was proud of Coach K and Duke for redshirting him because I thought it was best for Alex for him to redshirt but I think it may have been better for Duke this year for him to play.

On a similar thought, I have to admit at that I'm a little disappointed in Silent G's season. I'm not necessarily disappointed in him just in the situation and that it's March and we can't seem to get quality minutes from him. He (or Alex) are seemingly our missing piece (a 3 with size)

[Edouble]

Our team defense was mainly bad because of poor defensive rebounding. We were bad on the defensive glass because you have the Plumlees trying to rebound against 4 6'7+ guys who are all crashing the boards. I think a third player over 6'5 might have helped with that. Personal opinion.

The foundational weakness in this Duke team is a lack of versatility in its roster. It is what it is. We just don't have the moveable parts this year that we've had in years past. We have depth, but lack what I believe K calls "deep depth." That's where the hope for a Gbinije or a Murphy to step up and contribute comes from. Clearly, that's not happening this year and we will just have to enjoy the ride that this particular, weirdly constructed, fun to watch, fights-like-crazy team.

I thought the problem tonight was that we did not fight like crazy, not that we needed PT from a 6'7' freshman. If we had matched UNC's mental effort and fight, we could have won.

[uh_no]

I thought the problem tonight was that we did not fight like crazy, not that we needed PT from a 6'7' freshman. If we had matched UNC's mental effort and fight, we could have won.

We cut a 26 point lead down to 11....I'm not sure how much more fight you can ask for.

[Edouble]

We cut a 26 point lead down to 11....I'm not sure how much more fight you can ask for.

That's my point. When we started fighting, we started to come back. I'm "asking" for 40 minutes.

We were fighting at 2 very different levels within this game. One when we went down 18-5, another when we were a missed Curry 3 pointer away from cutting it to single digits.

[uh_no]

That's my point. When we started fighting, we started to come back. I'm "asking" for 40 minutes.

We were fighting at 2 very different levels within this game. One when we went down 18-5, another when we were a missed Curry 3 pointer away from cutting it to single digits.

I disagree. Missed shots do not constitute a lack of effort. They scored any way they wanted to all game......we could not defend them. That doesn't mean the effort or the fight wasn't there....

[Edouble]

I disagree. Missed shots do not constitute a lack of effort. They scored any way they wanted to all game......we could not defend them. That doesn't mean the effort or the fight wasn't there....

Yeah, but the effort/fight wasn't there. It showed up in the second half. The difference in the two halves wasn't that we missed shots in the first and made them in the second. Please tell me that you saw the play in the second half was more inspired than the first!

[Rogue]

Yeah, but the effort/fight wasn't there. It showed up in the second half. The difference in the two halves wasn't that we missed shots in the first and made them in the second. Please tell me that you saw the play in the second half was more inspired than the first!

I disagree. I think the fight was there the whole game. No, we didn't press the whole game , as that too takes a toll on players.. but the team in the ugly bleu started slowing it down,spreading the court, milking the clock and had some missed shots,, with a spread court, they weren't packed in as well to get their own offensive rebound and we got a few more..
We just couldn't hit any open shots in the first 10- 15 min of the game and unc played their normal game and we were down by 15-20 points.. We hit 40% of those open 3's and it's a different game.. But we didn't.. The effort was there..

I just don't see how one can say we didn't have the same effort.. durning our mini runs in the second half, we still missed open 3's and even lay ups ,, the effort was there.. it just wasn't our night, and unc was more of a machine running smoothly.

[oldnavy]

I doubt he would have helped. Barnes only scored 16 points, and it's not realistic to expect a freshman wing to drastically improve our overall team defense.

I doubt it as well for a couple of reasons, the primary one is that K though he should red-shirt.

I doubt that he would have made an impact at all this season, and the year of practice, growth and mental maturity will have to help him down the road. I just can't see AM taking us to a higher level this year.

Plus, with the way recruiting has gone this year, it will be nice to have him in that "2012" class...

[Scorp4me]

...as we saw when Quinn was hyped to death and hasn't been the major contributor many here thought he would be...

I think that is the the fault of the people who hyped him more so than Quinn's fault.

[ncexnyc]

I think that the OP's question is a valid one. I guess my answer to it is yes, it was. Considering Silent G has been available the whole season and has barely sniffed the court, let alone been a major contributor, I can't say that Alex being available would have yielded much better results than we saw from Mike, unless he's a far superior player and I never really read that anywhere on this board.

I will say that the majority of us knew from the early games, SF would be a problem for us this season. Several pinned their hopes on Dre, but the consistency just isn't there yet and I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever be.

[uh_no]

I think that is the the fault of the people who hyped him more so than Quinn's fault.

Yup. I was simply pointing out that i was trying to avoid the same mistake here in pretending that alex could or would have been a savior.

[Edouble]

I disagree. I think the fight was there the whole game. No, we didn't press the whole game , as that too takes a toll on players.. but the team in the ugly bleu started slowing it down,spreading the court, milking the clock and had some missed shots,, with a spread court, they weren't packed in as well to get their own offensive rebound and we got a few more..
We just couldn't hit any open shots in the first 10- 15 min of the game and unc played their normal game and we were down by 15-20 points.. We hit 40% of those open 3's and it's a different game.. But we didn't.. The effort was there..

I just don't see how one can say we didn't have the same effort.. durning our mini runs in the second half, we still missed open 3's and even lay ups ,, the effort was there.. it just wasn't our night, and unc was more of a machine running smoothly.

Do you think the team said "Coach K, it just wasn't our night," and he said "Oh, OK."

I hear a lot about statistics on this site, but there is more to the game than that. "Fight" and "heart" are also about making shots. 48-24 is more than just not hitting open shots. It's fine to list statistics, but those numbers don't exist in a vacuum, and they are an effect, not a cause. We missed those shots because we were not fighting. We didn't go down 48-24 because our shooting percentage fell 2 statistical deviations under the mean randomly during the biggest game of the year against our biggest rival.

To me, the Duke team that came out after half time (Mason in particular) was not the same as the team on the floor in the first half, and it wasn't just because statistics were evening themselves out.

[Lord Ash]

Have to admit, the fact that we felt like we were looking for some longer, athletic wings all year and yet we had two on the bench (Alex and Mike) just made me scratch my head. I know that K obviously knows a lot more than I do, but given how Andre had games where he barely played, and Quinn looked decidedly like a freshman for long stretches of the season, is the lineup of Tyler-Seth-Austin SO good that NO time can be found for two very highly rated recruits (Alex was like Top 10 or so in his original class!) with some size and ability?

Definitely leaves me scratching my head. IMVHO, Alex Murphy should have played this year.

[CDu]

I disagree. Missed shots do not constitute a lack of effort. They scored any way they wanted to all game......we could not defend them. That doesn't mean the effort or the fight wasn't there....

The guards failing to keep their men off the boards in the first half was evidence of a lack of fight. UNC's guards were bigger, but it wasn't an issue of size that allowed them to get to the boards. It was a lack of any attention to boxing them out. Hairston and Bullock each had easy trots into the paint to pick up offensive rebounds. McAdoo and Barnes did as well. Rebounding stats are largely evidence of "fight" (especially when it comes to guard rebounding). And we got killed on both ends of the floor in this stat.

Granted, the inability to defend Marshall and the great shooting from Henson and Zeller and the poor fortune for us on the offensive end were just as key if not moreso. But I think it would be very easy to argue that UNC had at least a bit more fight in them then we did. At least in the first half.

[DukieInBrasil]

We cut a 26 point lead down to 11....I'm not sure how much more fight you can ask for.

not getting down 26, at home, to the biggest rival. That would be the kind of fight i would ask for.

[uh_no]

not getting down 26, at home, to the biggest rival. That would be the kind of fight i would ask for.

Guess they should have willed those 15 straight missed shots into the basket?

I do mean to be snarky, specifically because it bothers me that people come on here and go to rip kids who went out there and gave it their all for 40 minutes. We came out, we had a bad offensive stretch when things weren't falling, and we played them even for the last 30 minutes of the game.....I might even say that being so excited to play, so amped up, might have contributed to missing the shots. We wanted it just as much as they did, its just that we let that excitement, that adrenaline negatively affect our game.

If there was actually less "heart" in the first 10 minutes, then we should have seen an affect on both their offensive output and their rebounding....but those were very consistent throughout the whole game. pretty much the only thing that changed between the first 10 minutes and the rest of the game was that we made some shots.

If you want to rip kids whose crime is missing some shots....and say that its because they weren't trying hard enough, be my guest.

[Edouble]

...it bothers me that people come on here and go to rip kids who went out there and gave it their all for 40 minutes.

Pretty much the only thing that changed between the first 10 minutes and the rest of the game was that we made some shots.

This is essentially what we disagree on. I say there was a major change. You saw no difference. It's crazy that we see things so differently. It's almost like we were watching different games.

I have yet to rip anyone though. I hardly think noting that we didn't have enough fight is ripping. We are all allowed to opine on the team around here as long as it's not destructive or insulting.

Crazy... 48-24, and the sole reason for that is missed shots? I just don't see it. We definitely missed some shots that we should have made. It was like there was a lid on the basket... but I think there has to be a reason for that many missed shots. I don't think it's the difference in talent between the two teams, as we have played them even in 2 of the 4 halves of basketball this year. I also don't think it's a statistical aberration. It's just too damn big of an aberration to randomly rear its head against our biggest rival, especially following the final shot in the last game that we played them in. UNC fought harder and deserved the win. The quotes following the game from our own team point to this.

[uh_no]

This is essentially what we disagree on. I say there was a major change. You saw no difference. It's crazy that we see things so differently. It's almost like we were watching different games.

I have yet to rip anyone though. I hardly think noting that we didn't have enough fight is ripping. We are all allowed to opine on the team around here as long as it's not destructive or insulting.

Crazy... 48-24, and the sole reason for that is missed shots? I just don't see it. We definitely missed some shots that we should have made. It was like there was a lid on the basket... but I think there has to be a reason for that many missed shots. I don't think it's the difference in talent between the two teams, as we have played them even in 2 of the 4 halves of basketball this year. I also don't think it's a statistical aberration. It's just too damn big of an aberration to randomly rear its head against our biggest rival, especially following the final shot in the last game that we played them in. UNC fought harder and deserved the win. The quotes following the game from our own team point to this.

we missed 15 straight........it was 22-5.....the rest of game score was 66-65.....the only difference I saw between the first 10 minutes when we got blown out, and the last 30 when we tied was 15 straight missed shots...our defense was consistent (as bad as it was, it was consistent)....our rebounding was fairly consistent (also bad).....our offense was the only thing that showed a stark difference between the start and the rest of the game. And the stagnation was not taking bad shots.....we missed layups, we missed threes, we missed floaters, we missed mid range jumpers. Are there other things we could do to mitigate poor shooting stretches? yup. and i'm sure they will be worked on. But we came back because we hit shots....not because we were playing harder.

Again, how hard you play is often reflected much more in defense and rebounding than offense....and those things were bad throughout....so I'm not sure you can say that is evidence of not playing hard for the first 10 minutes.

[_Gary]

Have to admit, the fact that we felt like we were looking for some longer, athletic wings all year and yet we had two on the bench (Alex and Mike) just made me scratch my head. I know that K obviously knows a lot more than I do, but given how Andre had games where he barely played, and Quinn looked decidedly like a freshman for long stretches of the season, is the lineup of Tyler-Seth-Austin SO good that NO time can be found for two very highly rated recruits (Alex was like Top 10 or so in his original class!) with some size and ability?

Definitely leaves me scratching my head. IMVHO, Alex Murphy should have played this year.

What is kind of ironic (for lack of a better word right now) is that Coach K, in his post-game presser, mentioned how long UNC was at every position and how you can't teach that. Yet here we are discussing the merits of whether or not it was the right choice to redshirt Murphy, and not play Gbinije much either - two guys that would have provided some of that length you can't teach. Now, before anyone says it, let me: I realize we play the best we have and it just so happens that the better guards and wings we have add up to a smaller than desirable PG/SG/SF combo. But it is food for thought, imho.

[kmspeaks]

Do you think the team said "Coach K, it just wasn't our night," and he said "Oh, OK."

I hear a lot about statistics on this site, but there is more to the game than that. "Fight" and "heart" are also about making shots. 48-24 is more than just not hitting open shots. It's fine to list statistics, but those numbers don't exist in a vacuum, and they are an effect, not a cause. We missed those shots because we were not fighting. We didn't go down 48-24 because our shooting percentage fell 2 statistical deviations under the mean randomly during the biggest game of the year against our biggest rival.

To me, the Duke team that came out after half time (Mason in particular) was not the same as the team on the floor in the first half, and it wasn't just because statistics were evening themselves out.




I have yet to rip anyone though. I hardly think noting that we didn't have enough fight is ripping. We are all allowed to opine on the team around here as long as it's not destructive or insulting.



Except that you did rip the entire team. Saying someone has no heart is one of the worst insults you can throw at an athlete. I would rather have someone say I can't shoot, can't dribble, can't defend, etc than say I have no heart or no fight. Whether you mean to or not what you are essentially saying is that they weren't trying, that they were missing those shots on purpose.

Effort and heart can be difficult to judge, especially through a TV screen.

[Wander]

I think he would have helped enormously. Before it was clear he'd be redshirting, wasn't the word that he was playing well enough in practice to fight for a starting spot? With all due respect to Hairston and Gbinje, we could really use a forward that's capable of playing major minutes. It's an obvious hole in our roster.

All that said, it's always seemed to me that if you're willing to read between the lines a little bit, the redshirt wasn't done for strategic basketball reasons. So it's fine.

[Kedsy]

Crazy... 48-24, and the sole reason for that is missed shots?

Well, from 18:53 in the first half to 11:17, we took 8 two-point shots, 7 three-point shots, and 4 free throws, and we missed them all except for one free throw. We were outscored 18-1 in that approximately 7 and a half minute stretch. I don't remember any of those shots being poor shot selection or particularly well defended, so assuming we made our averages on those shots (instead of missing them all), we would have made 4 of the 2s, 3 of the 3s, and 3 of the FTs. That would have been 20 points, instead of 1 point, and instead of 22-5 it would have been 23-22 Duke, and the rest of the game is very different. Three of the shots were taken after offensive rebounds, so for argument's sake let's take away one of the threes, and then it's 22-20 UNC, and still a very different game.

My guess is if it was 22-20 at that point, and then UNC outscored us 66-65 the rest of the way, you wouldn't be talking about how much of a difference there was in the two segments of the game.

[oldnavy]

Well, from 18:53 in the first half to 11:17, we took 8 two-point shots, 7 three-point shots, and 4 free throws, and we missed them all except for one free throw. We were outscored 18-1 in that approximately 7 and a half minute stretch. I don't remember any of those shots being poor shot selection or particularly well defended, so assuming we made our averages on those shots (instead of missing them all), we would have made 4 of the 2s, 3 of the 3s, and 3 of the FTs. That would have been 19 points, instead of 1 point, and instead of 22-5 it would have been 24-22 Duke, and the rest of the game is very different. Three of the shots were taken after offensive rebounds, so for argument's sake let's take away one of the threes, and then it's 22-20 UNC, and still a very different game.

My guess is if it was 22-20 at that point, and then UNC outscored us 66-65 the rest of the way, you wouldn't be talking about how much of a difference there was in the two segments of the game.

The 15 straight misses were really unexplainable. It was just one of those things that happen, and you watch it happen and you know that it is going to be one of those nights. Along the same lines, UNC was making shots that you wouldn't expect them to make either. Although we did give up some open looks, shots like Henson's running 12 foot half hook, half side arm sling that went in, plus the straight on bank shot for Marshall, just confirmed.... it was one of those nights!!

I still think we are in pretty good shape going forward, if for no other reason we don't have to play any more games in Cameron sad to say!

[Greg_Newton]

I completely disagree with this assessment. Over the course of the season, our defensive rebounding has been pretty good by Duke standards. In fact, our defensive rebounding percentage (68.7%) is actually the 2nd best Duke team performance in the past 12 years (probably longer than that, but I only checked back through the 2000-01 championship season). Ironically, the only Duke team in those 12 years with a better defensive rebounding percentage than this year's team was the 2006-07 team (69.6%).

I'm not really sold on this being anything but a function of terrible ACC competition. In our last 4 games against top-100 level competition, that number drops to under 58%, which corresponds to a whopping 42% offensive rebounding percentage.

[Kedsy]

I'm not really sold on this being anything but a function of terrible ACC competition. In our last 4 games against top-100 level competition, that number drops to under 58%, which corresponds to a whopping 42% offensive rebounding percentage.

I haven't broken it down for individual games. But our defensive rebounding percentage was pretty consistently around the same number during our brutal non-conference schedule, so I don't necessarily agree that the number is a product of our poor ACC competition.

[Greg_Newton]

I haven't broken it down for individual games. But our defensive rebounding percentage was pretty consistently around the same number during our brutal non-conference schedule, so I don't necessarily agree that the number is a product of our poor ACC competition.

Maybe, but that's how it's gone in the last couple of months against good teams, for whatever reason.

I almost wonder if Dawkins' disappearance has had something to do with it - he didn't put up impressive rebounding numbers when he was playing 30+ mpg in that early stretch, but it probably helped to have a built, 6'4 leaper bodying up the SF and Rivers on the SG rather than Rivers on the SF and a slight 6'1 Curry on the SG.

[roywhite]

The 15 straight misses were really unexplainable. It was just one of those things that happen, and you watch it happen and you know that it is going to be one of those nights. Along the same lines, UNC was making shots that you wouldn't expect them to make either. Although we did give up some open looks, shots like Henson's running 12 foot half hook, half side arm sling that went in, plus the straight on bank shot for Marshall, just confirmed.... it was one of those nights!!

I still think we are in pretty good shape going forward, if for no other reason we don't have to play any more games in Cameron sad to say!

Coach K talked about how Carolina played with great efficiency and were "overwhelming" at times.

During the early part of the game, the Heels scored on every possession. Frankly, I think our team did feel "overwhelmed" and that contributed to our bad stretch of shooting.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Coach K talked about how Carolina played with great efficiency and were "overwhelming" at times.

During the early part of the game, the Heels scored on every possession. Frankly, I think our team did feel "overwhelmed" and that contributed to our bad stretch of shooting.
I tend to agree regarding feeling overwhelmed. Carolina came out determined and hot. The ending of the first game was replayed getting the crowd up and loud. Having the video of the ending of game 1 running seemed to fuel the Carolina players' resolve and focus.

Somehow this conversation about this game makes me think of many conversations during the football season. Key words seem to be precise execution, focused play, extremely talented, rushed attempts to score, defense overwhelmed.......

[OldPhiKap]

I tend to agree regarding feeling overwhelmed. Carolina came out determined and hot. The ending of the first game was replayed getting the crowd up and loud. Having the video of the ending of game 1 running seemed to fuel the Carolina players' resolve and focus.

Somehow this conversation about this game makes me think of many conversations during the football season. Key words seem to be precise execution, focused play, extremely talented, rushed attempts to score, defense overwhelmed.......

Wise words, as always.

Carolina brought their A game from the get-go. We started nervous, and spotted a lead we could never close. Tough game, learn some lessons, next play.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Wise words, as always.

Carolina brought their A game from the get-go. We started nervous, and spotted a lead we could never close. Tough game, learn some lessons, next play.
Merci!

Some things can't be forced or taught..... maturing is one of those. Self confidence seems to be a fragile and elusive quality, especially when its most needed.

Coach K has spoken often of how each team makes its own journey. This team is still developing. That continuing development may be disappointing this season, but next year we may see some significant results.

[MCFinARL]

Have to admit, the fact that we felt like we were looking for some longer, athletic wings all year and yet we had two on the bench (Alex and Mike) just made me scratch my head. I know that K obviously knows a lot more than I do, but given how Andre had games where he barely played, and Quinn looked decidedly like a freshman for long stretches of the season, is the lineup of Tyler-Seth-Austin SO good that NO time can be found for two very highly rated recruits (Alex was like Top 10 or so in his original class!) with some size and ability?

Definitely leaves me scratching my head. IMVHO, Alex Murphy should have played this year.


I think he would have helped enormously. Before it was clear he'd be redshirting, wasn't the word that he was playing well enough in practice to fight for a starting spot? With all due respect to Hairston and Gbinje, we could really use a forward that's capable of playing major minutes. It's an obvious hole in our roster.

All that said, it's always seemed to me that if you're willing to read between the lines a little bit, the redshirt wasn't done for strategic basketball reasons. So it's fine.

In theory, yes--a longer, taller player would have helped. But in fact, when Mike G. did get minutes, he sometimes looked a bit lost or unready--I think he is a promising player and will contribute a lot in the future, but it's not clear he was ready to have a major impact this season (and it is certainly not the first time that Coach K has shortened his bench as the season went on, for better or worse).

As for Alex, I also remember the comments about how well he was doing in practice--but the preseason game he played in was a bit of a different story, IIRC. And ultimately, it seemed the redshirt was something he was thinking about from the beginning (because he thought he could learn more by coming to Duke than by staying in high school) and something he wanted, or at least supported, after the concussion set back his progress. If that is right, then I think the fact that the coaching staff did not push him to come back simply because he is taller and might help fill an immediate need is entirely to the program's credit--putting the long-term best interests of the player ahead of short-term considerations.


Maybe, but that's how it's gone in the last couple of months against good teams, for whatever reason.

I almost wonder if Dawkins' disappearance has had something to do with it - he didn't put up impressive rebounding numbers when he was playing 30+ mpg in that early stretch, but it probably helped to have a built, 6'4 leaper bodying up the SF and Rivers on the SG rather than Rivers on the SF and a slight 6'1 Curry on the SG.

This is an interesting point--and if I'm not mistaken, Andre's rebound numbers, while still not high, have actually gone up recently.


Wise words, as always.

Carolina brought their A game from the get-go. We started nervous, and spotted a lead we could never close. Tough game, learn some lessons, next play.
I have to agree. During warmups, looking at the TV closeups of the players, I thought the Duke players looked tight and nervous, while the UNC players looked more confident and businesslike. If the idea in the Duke players' heads was "we can win, but only if we hit our outside shots," it's not hard to see how they might have forced some of those shots, even the open ones, because every make or miss would seem so important.

[UrinalCake]

It's hard for me to imagine he would have gotten much playing time if he hadn't taken the redshirt. Where would his minutes have come from? Andre's? Mason or Ryan's? As others have stated, Gbinije isn't getting much floor time at all, and I think most people view Alex's role as somewhat similar to G's, though they are of course different players. If anything, G is more of a defensive player and Alex more offensive, and defense is what we're lacking.

The most popular player on any team is always the guy on the bench. Since he's not on the floor, he hasn't made any mistakes, so you can only presume he's better than the guy who's actually playing. Apparently this is doubly true for a guy who's being redshirted.

[-jk]

I seem to recall that he reclassified because he thought a redshirt year at Duke would be better than anther year on a HS team. He never thought to play college hoops this season.

-jk

[Greg_Newton]

I seem to recall that he reclassified because he thought a redshirt year at Duke would be better than anther year on a HS team. He never thought to play college hoops this season.

-jk

While agree with your first sentence, I think your second one isn't quite right. Once he arrived on campus and started showing out in practice, it was definitely a possibility... probably even a probability, if you'd had to guess at the time. But in the end, for reasons we aren't meant to be privy to, they reverted to the original plan.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, it makes sense to me that the redshirt was more Alex's (and his family's) decision than Duke's. Firstly, Duke doesn't redshirt unless it's a completely obvious situation (Marshall Plumlee), and secondly, Duke loves Alex's game. He started in China and probably would've helped fill a glaring need for this team.

But, in the end, this board is doing a lot of the typical "fan logic" after a loss where, because X Y and Z didn't occur during the loss, if we had just done X Y and Z, we would've won. Sometimes outcomes happen that you can't do much about. UNC has 4 players better than our best player. If Austin were a sophomore, UNC would have 4 out of 5 instead. You can only do so much against that.

[uh_no]

While agree with your first sentence, I think your second one isn't quite right. Once he arrived on campus and started showing out in practice, it was definitely a possibility... probably even a probability, if you'd had to guess at the time. But in the end, for reasons we aren't meant to be privy to, they reverted to the original plan.

Didn't being injured play into it too? Once he missed a month (or whatever it was) the slim margin he had to get ready for the season wasn't worth it?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I have to agree. During warmups, looking at the TV closeups of the players, I thought the Duke players looked tight and nervous, while the UNC players looked more confident and businesslike. If the idea in the Duke players' heads was "we can win, but only if we hit our outside shots," it's not hard to see how they might have forced some of those shots, even the open ones, because every make or miss would seem so important.

Agree. I recall a lot of early shots that were short armed - a number of shots hitting the front of the rim, barely drawing iron, at least 1 airball... We were tentative. Looked lost. Hard to explain.

[Greg_Newton]

But, in the end, this board is doing a lot of the typical "fan logic" after a loss where, because X Y and Z didn't occur during the loss, if we had just done X Y and Z, we would've won. Sometimes outcomes happen that you can't do much about. UNC has 4 players better than our best player. If Austin were a sophomore, UNC would have 4 out of 5 instead. You can only do so much against that.

True that. I will say that my issue this season has been with the team's identity, rather than player X or Y; I've been griping all year about how I wished the coaches would make a conscious decision to develop our athletic size on the perimeter and adjust strategies accordingly, rather than putting all of our very skilled, but fairly redundant 1-2 guards on the floor at the same time and letting the team sort of mold itself from that.

We had the roster for a perimeter rotation that could have included two athletic 6'6-6'8 wings and a lightning quick 6'4 star who will be an NBA PG (and has defended PGs very well), along with our two sweet-shooting 2-guards and a solid backup PG in Thornton. One of those guys probably gets left out of the 10+ MPG rotation, but it's not like we didn't have the horses to build a long, athletic defensive core and grow from there. I know there are plenty of valid arguments against this strategy, and it's probably correct to say "Player X just didn't perform in practice," but IMO, sometimes you have to focus on developing certain players from a needs standpoint instead of relying on the merit system. For example, if K had made it his top priority to push and develop one of our freshman wings into an effective rotation player, I think he could have done it, personally.

I realize there are plenty of valid arguments against this, but that's just the style of basketball I'm prone to... probably from growing up with the earlier K Duke teams, honestly. It seems a little like the "If you can't play D, you won't play" mantra has sort faded to "If you can't shoot, you won't play" as priority 1-A, which I don't like. But, you take the good with the bad I suppose.

[MCFinARL]

It seems a little like the "If you can't play D, you won't play" mantra has sort faded to "If you can't shoot, you won't play" as priority 1-A, which I don't like. But, you take the good with the bad I suppose.

? Really? Then how do you explain Tyler Thornton?

I realize this doesn't answer the point you make about choosing an overall identity of being a shooting team, and particularly a 3-shooting team, instead of developing longer wings--that does seem to be a choice the coaching staff made with this team and it's perfectly fair to question it (though it's also impossible to know, without being an insider, whether it was the best choice or not). But this last statement seems too strong to me.

[Bluealum]

True that. I will say that my issue this season has been with the team's identity, rather than player X or Y; I've been griping all year about how I wished the coaches would make a conscious decision to develop our athletic size on the perimeter and adjust strategies accordingly, rather than putting all of our very skilled, but fairly redundant 1-2 guards on the floor at the same time and letting the team sort of mold itself from that.

We had the roster for a perimeter rotation that could have included two athletic 6'6-6'8 wings and a lightning quick 6'4 star who will be an NBA PG (and has defended PGs very well), along with our two sweet-shooting 2-guards and a solid backup PG in Thornton. One of those guys probably gets left out of the 10+ MPG rotation, but it's not like we didn't have the horses to build a long, athletic defensive core and grow from there. I know there are plenty of valid arguments against this strategy, and it's probably correct to say "Player X just didn't perform in practice," but IMO, sometimes you have to focus on developing certain players from a needs standpoint instead of relying on the merit system. For example, if K had made it his top priority to push and develop one of our freshman wings into an effective rotation player, I think he could have done it, personally.

I realize there are plenty of valid arguments against this, but that's just the style of basketball I'm prone to... probably from growing up with the earlier K Duke teams, honestly. It seems a little like the "If you can't play D, you won't play" mantra has sort faded to "If you can't shoot, you won't play" as priority 1-A, which I don't like. But, you take the good with the bad I suppose.

I'd like to tackle this question from another vantage point, and I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. What message would it send to our current team and future recruits if we added say 20 minutes of PT for Mike and 20 minutes for a non-redshirted Alex (I assume you would actually want more if we were to use the two of them as the primary wings).

We would be substantially reducing the minutes of:
A junior Seth Curry, who we encouraged to transfer into Duke, has worked his tail off and is a very productive all around player. He is also someone that went through a shooting slump and has clearly broken out.
A junior Andre Dawkins, who many already think get too few minutes to get on a roll, was a life-long Dukie and has one of the sweetest jumpers in all the land. Someone who could breakout on a more consistent basis at any time.
A sophomore Tyler Thornton who K says is the best defender, leader, and toughest player on the team, who is clearly improving as a shooter as the season progresses and is less foul prone than he was even 10 games ago.

All of these examples point to the fact that players improve with PT, which is what your are saying, but sitting these guys and playing 2 freshmen who are worse in practice and less schooled in team defense, in front of Seth, Andre, and Tyler would send what message? Players are not just chess pieces, K seems finely tuned to the psychology of team and player, and a change like this would surely affect the teams psyche.

If I were one of those three veterans, I would then certainly consider a transfer If I am more experienced and practice better and harder and get less PT!! It's easy when a veteran sees a guy like Austin play in front of them. He is so supremely talented, and appears to have a will that would carry over to practice/pickup/backyard ball whatever, that effort and ability would justify the greater role. But when all else is even, or more likely in this case, when the veterans are better in practice, what then?

To build a team, roles have to be given fairly, and the unusual makeup of this team, with a quintet of good but short guards, with more experience and/or talent than the 2 wings on the roster make the balancing act very difficult. For this reason I am very glad that circumstances drove Alex to red-shirt. If he had received limited minutes along with Mike, I can't imagine the lunacy on these boards.

I, for one, think this issue will be very much alive next year, when we add one more talented guard and retain all of our experienced and improving shorter players on the roster (with or without Austin). K is going to have a challenge with that balancing act as well.

[Kedsy]

We had the roster for a perimeter rotation that could have included two athletic 6'6-6'8 wings and a lightning quick 6'4 star who will be an NBA PG (and has defended PGs very well), along with our two sweet-shooting 2-guards and a solid backup PG in Thornton. One of those guys probably gets left out of the 10+ MPG rotation, but it's not like we didn't have the horses to build a long, athletic defensive core and grow from there.

In this scenario, Quinn Cook wouldn't have played at all, and as you point out either Tyler or one of our sweet-shooting 2-guards would not have been able to get into the 10+ mpg rotation. Based on recent events, I'd guess if one of Tyler/Seth/Andre would drop out of the rotation it would be Andre, so a main question would be which of the following seems like a more successful 8-man rotation:

Austin/Seth/Mason/Miles/Ryan/Tyler/Alex/Michael

OR

Austin/Seth/Mason/Miles/Ryan/Tyler/Andre/Quinn

Personally, I much prefer having Andre and Quinn getting rotation minutes instead of Alex and Michael. Would I have liked Andre and Alex even more? I don't know, but I doubt that combination would be significantly better than Andre and Quinn.

[Greg_Newton]

In this scenario, Quinn Cook wouldn't have played at all, and as you point out either Tyler or one of our sweet-shooting 2-guards would not have been able to get into the 10+ mpg rotation. Based on recent events, I'd guess if one of Tyler/Seth/Andre would drop out of the rotation it would be Andre, so a main question would be which of the following seems like a more successful 8-man rotation:

Austin/Seth/Mason/Miles/Ryan/Tyler/Alex/Michael

OR

Austin/Seth/Mason/Miles/Ryan/Tyler/Andre/Quinn

Personally, I much prefer having Andre and Quinn getting rotation minutes instead of Alex and Michael. Would I have liked Andre and Alex even more? I don't know, but I doubt that combination would be significantly better than Andre and Quinn.

Actually, I was thinking that it would likely either be one of Murphy or Gbinije who didn't make the 8-man rotation. But you're right, Cook wouldn't have played at all - I've thought since before the season that he should have been redshirted, as he's simply not ready to contribute on the defensive end, and I would have liked to see him resolve his health problems 100% and focus on developing his strength and explosiveness for next season. Not to mention, if Austin is being groomed to cover lead guard duties, there's not much room for Cook to share with him and Thornton/Curry.

So basically, we'd have Rivers-Curry-[FR big wing/Dawkins] as our backcourt, with Thornton backing up the 1/2 and [big wing]/Dawkins splitting time depending on matchups and who steps up.



? Really? Then how do you explain Tyler Thornton?

While I agree that Tyler's team defense is a big reason for his PT, he is shooting just a hair under 39% 3PT on the season... I'd say he can shoot okay.


If I were one of those three veterans, I would then certainly consider a transfer If I am more experienced and practice better and harder and get less PT!! It's easy when a veteran sees a guy like Austin play in front of them. He is so supremely talented, and appears to have a will that would carry over to practice/pickup/backyard ball whatever, that effort and ability would justify the greater role. But when all else is even, or more likely in this case, when the veterans are better in practice, what then?

A fair point, but I think you're oversimplifying my argument a bit; I'm not saying just play the freshman from day 1, regardless of what they do in practice, period. A basketball season is a lot more nuanced than that; there are ways coaches can work players extra hard to improve besides just sticking them in games. Maybe K takes Murphy/Gbinije aside early on and explains how he's going to need him/them to play a major role on the team this year, and that they were going to need work extra hard on their games, gets coaches to spend extra time with them after practice, works his psychological magic on them, etc. Personally, I don't think it's unfair to take on a player or two as a personal project if it's in the team's best interest.

If it comes to Jan/Feb/March and they still don't bring enough to the table to earn PT, then obviously, you don't gift it to them. But it's not like many of our current guards are exactly defending at a high level, anyway, so it's not like their minutes should necessarily be insurmountable.

[watzone]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/03/alex-murphy-reflects-on-his-redshirt-season-at-duke/ I had a recent one on one with Alex Murphy and he seems to be fine with the decision to redshirt him but it is tough not playing for a kid who has never sat out a season.

[DukieTiger]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/03/alex-murphy-reflects-on-his-redshirt-season-at-duke/ I had a recent one on one with Alex Murphy and he seems to be fine with the decision to redshirt him but it is tough not playing for a kid who has never sat out a season.

Seems like he sees the benefit of redshirting, while also believing he could have helped at different times this year- which I would agree with.

Over the next 4 years though, I believe we will be very happy that Alex redshirted. I loved hearing from him and seeing his perspective. He's got the mindset of a Duke player. Thanks, Mark!

[gus]

The 15 straight misses were really unexplainable. It was just one of those things that happen...

it's actually really easy to explain: clusters happen in random sequences. We missed a lot of good shots. Your explanation is perfect: it's just one of those things that happens.

Take a look at the two images in this article without reading the text:

http://www.billthelizard.com/2009/05/how-do-you-test-random-number-generator.html

which one is random?

Or you could say we as a team were cold. Whatever -- in either case, it doesn't mean that the team didn't put in effort. They were executing the offense reasonably well, and just not making the open shots. Meanwhile Carolina was making shots like henson's ridiculously awkward running left handed hook shot over Miles. It happens. I'm certainly not saying Duke played error free, but sometimes the shots just don't fall.

[MCFinARL]

Seems like he sees the benefit of redshirting, while also believing he could have helped at different times this year- which I would agree with.

Over the next 4 years though, I believe we will be very happy that Alex redshirted. I loved hearing from him and seeing his perspective. He's got the mindset of a Duke player. Thanks, Mark!

Agreed. At this point, unless the coaching staff thought Alex would be the difference between winning a national championship and not winning it (and it seems extremely unlikely that they do, IMHO), it seems like giving up the redshirt would be a bad choice for both player and team.

[Saratoga2]

This decision to red shirt Alex and play Michael only very limited minutes seems to go hand in hand. Both players would have gotten a lot of PT at other smaller programs and lord knows, we really have needed a solid small forward. They really would have competed with Andre for PT. That said, coach K must feel neither is ready for major program NCAA div I basketball. He sees them every day and we don't, so we have to abide by his judgment.

We have been guessing at what the roster will look like next year. With so few leaving, it seems like these kids will be facing the same up hill battle for PT next year as well. I wish the best for them.

At least Marshall knows a spot will be open for him next year.

[UrinalCake]

it's actually really easy to explain: clusters happen in random sequences. We missed a lot of good shots. Your explanation is perfect: it's just one of those things that happens.

Mathematically this makes sense, but I don't think that missed shots are just purely random. Several of our inside shots were bothered by Henson's presence, even if he didn't block it you could tell that our guys knew he was there and it affected them. Once we fell into a big hole, shots can become harder to make because we're pressing, or nervous about falling behind even more. Conversely, when you've got a big lead and are playing relaxed, it's easier to toss in a crazy shot and have it fall because you don't really care if you miss.

[Johnny Chill]

Gbinije pretty much wasted the season not getting any serious playing time, it felt like he was getting red shirt.

Cook could have used an injury red shirt to get his knee right.

[Jderf]

Mathematically this makes sense, but I don't think that missed shots are just purely random. Several of our inside shots were bothered by Henson's presence, even if he didn't block it you could tell that our guys knew he was there and it affected them. Once we fell into a big hole, shots can become harder to make because we're pressing, or nervous about falling behind even more. Conversely, when you've got a big lead and are playing relaxed, it's easier to toss in a crazy shot and have it fall because you don't really care if you miss.

It seems like people keep framing this debate as if it has to be one or the other. Making shots is either a factor of focus and heart, or it is purely a factor of statistical fluctuations. Wouldn't it make sense to simply say that both are a factor? And they are each a factor to an extent which varies at different times?

Basically, I would argue that shooting is a complicated process. There is a lot that goes into the ultimate odds of making any given shot: the defender's proximity, height, and hand-placement; the shooter's talent, height, sight lines, and psychological constitution; the type of shot; the crowd's influence; and, of course, random chance. To make matters worse, the amount of influence carried by each of these factors changes with every shot. No wonder people have such a hard time deciding why a particular shot just didn't drop.

As for the UNC debacle, I felt like once we missed a few early, we did psych ourselves out a little. Things began to seem rushed, even nervy. That nervousness made each of the following shots less likely to swish (though still possible), and that combined with some bad luck led to our prolonged drought. At least, that's my take. Others are free to disagree.

[gwlaw99]

So is there any info on Alex and Marshall's progress this year as players while practicing with the team?

[wilko]

Gbinije pretty much wasted the season not getting any serious playing time, it felt like he was getting red shirt.

Cook could have used an injury red shirt to get his knee right.

I too would have like to see G get more burn, but then compare his Fr #'s to Josh's Fr #'s .. were they all that dissimilar?
I think Q was an insurance policy to stay active and get minutes in the event of multiple injuries.

As for Cook, he had some brilliant moments. Nice moves, added lift to the team. However, something in his body language made me think he was still favoring his knee... at least mentally.. I think having a pre-season to actively participate will help him more than anything. The biggest key element missing is someone who can make an effective entry pass to the Big in the right position to execute. Having a passer like a Marshall would have made it look like Miles and Mason took quantum leaps in their post development.

[scottdude8]

When we're discussing this, remember that redshirting was Alex Murphy's idea. Not only that, it was expressed intention when he decided to come to Duke early— http://dukechronicle.com/article/murphy-plumlee-make-most-redshirt-year

[RepoMan]

Gbinije pretty much wasted the season not getting any serious playing time . . . .

Really? Wasted the season? What do you think he was doing in practice? In the weight room? Do you only improve in games?

[Devilsfan]

Maybe redshirting is the right thing for a couple of hypothetical reasons. One if the player you thought you recruited isn't ready in ability or strength or in the other case maybe the year redshirting will help him improve so much that a player (let's call this one Murphy) will need only one or two years at the college level to be able to make mega bucks at the next level.

[MCFinARL]

Maybe redshirting is the right thing for a couple of hypothetical reasons. One if the player you thought you recruited isn't ready in ability or strength or in the other case maybe the year redshirting will help him improve so much that a player (let's call this one Murphy) will need only one or two years at the college level to be able to make mega bucks at the next level.

Well, okay, but if you aren't at least thinking about using all four years of your eligibility, why not just take that first year as an occasional sub instead of a redshirt? Would the redshirt make a big difference in the way you were perceived by NBA scouts, and if so, why?

Re your first reason, obviously a possibility--I think it's important to remember, though, that in Murphy's case his concussion in practice seemed to be a big piece of the puzzle. It set him back at a crucial time and appeared to play a pretty big role in what was billed as a mutual decision (initiated by Murphy) to go with the redshirt.

[CDu]

Maybe redshirting is the right thing for a couple of hypothetical reasons. One if the player you thought you recruited isn't ready in ability or strength or in the other case maybe the year redshirting will help him improve so much that a player (let's call this one Murphy) will need only one or two years at the college level to be able to make mega bucks at the next level.

I'm not really sure I see this as a reason to redshirt. In that scenario, you're still in college for 2-3 years (just playing 1-2 years). If you're planning to leave in 2-3 years, why not just play as a freshman? There's nothing you can't do as a player that you can do as a redshirt, so redshirting doesn't really provide benefit in that scenario.

The redshirt seems applicable only in a situation where a player is seriously considering the possibility of playing for 4 years in college, but isn't ready physically (likely applicable as Murphy was pretty skinny) or is so far buried in the rotation that he isn't going to get minutes (not applicable).

[gus]

Really? Wasted the season? What do you think he was doing in practice? In the weight room? Do you only improve in games?

While I don't really agree with the argument that he wasted the season, Gbinije would still have been able to do all the things you cite as a red shirt.

[DeBlueDevil]

While I don't really agree with the argument that he wasted the season, Gbinije would still have been able to do all the things you cite as a red shirt.

By these standards I'm starting to think that some believe that if you aren't a freshman that can come in and make an immediate impact then you should redshirt. What happened to a freshman just being a freshman? Do any of you realize that most freshman around the country have minimal impact or get minimal playing time. Let's not get carried away with our expectations for these young men. Mike G did exactly what he was supposed to. Came in, played hard, and began his improvement as a college bball player.

I guess this is all a product of the one-and-done way of thinking where we all think every freshman will come in and contribute in some way.

[gus]

By these standards I'm starting to think that some believe that if you aren't a freshman that can come in and make an immediate impact then you should redshirt. What happened to a freshman just being a freshman? Do any of you realize that most freshman around the country have minimal impact or get minimal playing time. Let's not get carried away with our expectations for these young men. Mike G did exactly what he was supposed to. Came in, played hard, and began his improvement as a college bball player.

I guess this is all a product of the one-and-done way of thinking where we all think every freshman will come in and contribute in some way.

You responded to me, but I wasn't arguing that Gbinije wasted the season. I specifically said "I don't really agree with the argument that he wasted the season".

[-jk]

By these standards I'm starting to think that some believe that if you aren't a freshman that can come in and make an immediate impact then you should redshirt. What happened to a freshman just being a freshman? Do any of you realize that most freshman around the country have minimal impact or get minimal playing time. Let's not get carried away with our expectations for these young men. Mike G did exactly what he was supposed to. Came in, played hard, and began his improvement as a college bball player.

I guess this is all a product of the one-and-done way of thinking where we all think every freshman will come in and contribute in some way.

The "redshirt freshman" is already the model at most BCS football programs. And Cut has Duke doing it now (or "finally" as some see it).

Could the redshirt freshman have a place in basketball? I imagine top programs could use some 5 year leaders to help direct and anchor the one-and-dones. Is this K on the cutting edge again?

-jk

[DeBlueDevil]

You responded to me, but I wasn't arguing that Gbinije wasted the season. I specifically said "I don't really agree with the argument that he wasted the season".

My apologies. I wasn't particularly trying to respond right to you. I just hit the respond with quote button. But I do get the feeling that some are starting to change the way they think about incoming freshman and the expectations we should have due to this one and done type of world we live in now was my main point.

[DeBlueDevil]

The "redshirt freshman" is already the model at most BCS football programs. And Cut has Duke doing it now (or "finally" as some see it).

Could the redshirt freshman have a place in basketball? I imagine top programs could use some 5 year leaders to help direct and anchor the one-and-dones. Is this K on the cutting edge again?

-jk

This is kind of what I was getting at but worded way better than the way I explained. Good point JK.

[jamesfrommaiden]

Could Alex have helped to make Duke better? I think he could have. However maybe he wasn't ready. Was it his decision? It could have been mostly his, but I do not blame Coach K if he also thought it was a good idea. It is 100% impossible and nothing but pure conjecture to try to after the fact debate if Alex had played how much he could have contributed. You can't miss what you've never had. That is kind of how I feel about it. With a year under his belt of not only getting used to life at school he also got a year of practice along with strength training with the team. I think he will be much better this next season starting out than he might have been last. So it could have helped last year. It did not hurt us either. It will be a benefit next season and moving forward.


GO DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gwlaw99]

So no one has any inside scoop on how Murphy progressed this year?

[OldPhiKap]

So no one has any inside scoop on how Murphy progressed this year?

I think Austin had some very positive things to say in his last interview.

[Listen to Quants]

The "redshirt freshman" is already the model at most BCS football programs. And Cut has Duke doing it now (or "finally" as some see it).

Could the redshirt freshman have a place in basketball? I imagine top programs could use some 5 year leaders to help direct and anchor the one-and-dones. Is this K on the cutting edge again?

-jk

Cutting edge thinking here. I remember the pre-early-leavers K not being one to use all available scholarships on high DI recruits, I suspected he just didn't want the trouble (e.g., transfers, dissension) of sitting guys deep on the bench who would start elsewhere. Once the uncertainty of early leavers appears, he is 'forced' to use the full quota to be competitive for the top.

This trick would fit perfectly for him (obviously, given willing player(s)). Since the actual red-shirt decision/application occurs well into the academic year it would allow full bore recruiting a kid who might red-shirt IF so-and-so goes pro but not otherwise too. It would also serve to disinhibit recruiting "over" someone with a superstar one-and-done. The less talented, say junior, could be offered a red-shirt year off (if purely voluntary red-shirt years are granted after freshman year).

[Scorp4me]

I think for a kid who came to college a year early it is easily a good decision no matter what. Probably would have benefited Andre, but we didn't have that luxury. Could he have made a difference? Played a few minutes a game? What, we might have one or two more games? I say he makes a much bigger difference the next 4 years simply because there was little improvement left to make in this season. I mean it wasn't as if we were going to cut down the nets or anything:)

[roywhite]

The "redshirt freshman" is already the model at most BCS football programs. And Cut has Duke doing it now (or "finally" as some see it).

Could the redshirt freshman have a place in basketball? I imagine top programs could use some 5 year leaders to help direct and anchor the one-and-dones. Is this K on the cutting edge again?

-jk

Kansas seems to have been doing this successfully for a while now.

On this year's team, I believe Travis Releford, Jeff Withey, and Thomas Robinson all were previously redshirted.
Those who follow the Jayhawks more closely may be able to add to this list.

[CDu]

Kansas seems to have been doing this successfully for a while now.

On this year's team, I believe Travis Releford, Jeff Withey, and Thomas Robinson all were previously redshirted.
Those who follow the Jayhawks more closely may be able to add to this list.

Neither Withey nor Robinson redshirted. Withey transferred from Arizona and thus had to sit out a year. Robinson never sat out a year. He just played very limited minutes his first two years.

Releford did redshirt though, as did Teahen, Wesley, and Young from this year's team. Mario Little is a player from previous seasons who redshirted.

[roywhite]

Neither Withey nor Robinson redshirted. Withey transferred from Arizona and thus had to sit out a year. Robinson never sat out a year. He just played very limited minutes his first two years.

Releford did redshirt though, as did Teahen, Wesley, and Young from this year's team. Mario Little is a player from previous seasons who redshirted.

Thanks for the correction.

Other than Kansas, I can't think of other top teams that have used redshirting to a significant degree.
Or could we count UConn for their strategic use of suspensions in stretching out a player's career? :)

[turnandburn55]

I'm sure it also makes practice more interesting (we talkin' about practice?!). I seem to recall K saying in 2001 that Dahntay Jones was a huge boon for the team because he could terrorize the starters in practice since he didn't have to save anything for the actual games.

[CDu]

Thanks for the correction.

Other than Kansas, I can't think of other top teams that have used redshirting to a significant degree.
Or could we count UConn for their strategic use of suspensions in stretching out a player's career? :)

Yeah, it's fairly unusual, and Kansas is a clear outlier in this regard. It's uncommon to see guys who redshirt wind up as starters. The interesting thing is how often they redshirt guys after their freshman year. None of the guys above redshirted as freshmen. All were likely to see minimal roles in the years that they redshirted.

[everlong06]

so now that we missed out on Bazz and have an apparent hole at the 3 for next years team... how does murphy stack up to bazz and anderson, poythress and other top freshman SFs, after redshirting and practicing with a college team for a season. Working with a full time str/cond coach certainly helps, looks like he's gained 35 pounds (from 180 to 215?!) since arriving... basically the 3 guys above are going to be starting for their teams (though anderson probably at the 1 or 2) -- can we expect the same for murphy?

[MChambers]

so now that we missed out on Bazz and have an apparent hole at the 3 for next years team... how does murphy stack up to bazz and anderson, poythress and other top freshman SFs, after redshirting and practicing with a college team for a season. Working with a full time str/cond coach certainly helps, looks like he's gained 35 pounds (from 180 to 215?!) since arriving... basically the 3 guys above are going to be starting for their teams (though anderson probably at the 1 or 2) -- can we expect the same for murphy?
I think we'll be fine at the 3 next year, with Murphy and {g}.

[kexman]

Gonzaga has been redshirting their big guys for over a decade. Actually I don't know if they still do it, but that used to be their standard practice for the bigs. Their players were not headed to the NBA and they have an extra year to get bigger and stronger. Let your 23 year old bang with an 18 year old freshman and it will even the playing field. Bigs tend to be slower to make the transition to the college games than guards so I always thought it made sense.

Most if not all of our players have professional aspirations (ie. europe) so maybe it makes less sense for our players.

[gwlaw99]

so now that we missed out on Bazz and have an apparent hole at the 3 for next years team... how does murphy stack up to bazz and anderson, poythress and other top freshman SFs, after redshirting and practicing with a college team for a season. Working with a full time str/cond coach certainly helps, looks like he's gained 35 pounds (from 180 to 215?!) since arriving... basically the 3 guys above are going to be starting for their teams (though anderson probably at the 1 or 2) -- can we expect the same for murphy?

Where did you get the weight numbers?

edit: nevermind. Goduke.com has him at 220? holy cow.

[BD80]

Where did you get the weight numbers?

edit: nevermind. Goduke.com has him at 220? holy cow.

The weight looks good on him:

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