MBB: UNC-Chapel Hill 88, Duke 70, Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here. And remember to avoid bashing or venting.

[Duvall]

Seth Davis does it again.

[uh_no]

Put your post-game thoughts here. And remember to avoid bashing or venting.

BASHHHH!!!!

VENT!!!!

amazing what carolina did when they decided to play defense....

we had a monster half on the offensive side in the second half....46 points...that's huge

but we gave up 48 and 40.....same story as all year...defense, and rebounding

[CLW]

NIGHTMARE 1st half was too much to overcome.

Off shooting night (variance) and -20 on the boards.

We simply have to figure out a way for our shooting to not affect the performance on the other end. It seems if we are off shooting our Defensive intensity/focus/effort/etc... all takes a hit as well.

[FireOgilvie]

It's hard to come back from the lowest-scoring first half of the year. Solid second half. Regular season ACC championship doesn't mean anything. On to the ACC Tournament.

[Chris Randolph]

Just glad that is over with. Gotta give credit to UNC.

Plumlees should gain confidence on offensive end from this game. Especially Mason. IF they do then that could be huge going forward into the tournaments. I think we will be fine around the perimeter

I don't buy the "there is a lot to learn from this game" angle. What I learned is what everyone knows. If you can't shoot and can't stop the other team from scoring/rebounding, you lose. The guys played hard for the full 40, just started off so bad

[gotoguy]

Too deep a hole to dig out of. Some good offensive play by Miles and Mason in the 2nd half. Wished Seth had made that 3 to cut the lead to single digits...

[dukepsy1963]

That really, really hurt. Maybe next time... yeow!!

[CLW]

It's hard to come back from the lowest-scoring first half of the year. Great second half. Regular season ACC championship doesn't mean anything. On to the ACC Tournament.

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am not mistaken there is no such thing as an ACC Regular Season championship. I thought the ACC adopted a rule in like the 60s saying it crowned only one champion (the winner of the ACC tourny).

[uh_no]

NIGHTMARE 1st half was too much to overcome.

Off shooting night (variance) and -20 on the boards.

We simply have to figure out a way for our shooting to not affect the performance on the other end. It seems if we are off shooting our Defensive intensity/focus/effort/etc... all takes a hit as well.

I disagree about its affect on our defense. We had a monster second half on offense....and still gave up 40 points despite the fact that they were playing stall from 10 minutes out. They're just a really friggin good team, and once we couldn't hit a shot, we couldn't stop them consistently enough to come back

[Duvall]

BASHHHH!!!!

VENT!!!!

amazing what carolina did when they decided to play defense....

we had a monster half on the offensive side in the second half....46 points...that's huge

but we gave up 48 and 40.....same story as all year...defense, and rebounding

Think the second half defense was a lot better - in the first half UNC was getting the shots they wanted and hitting them; in the second half they were getting shots they didn't want and hitting them. Not much to be done about that except not getting into a 26-point hole to start with.

[kmspeaks]

28% from 3....not going to work against Carolina. No matter how much Hubert Davis wants to say that Carolina turned us into a 2 pt shooting team we had good looks, just didn't knock them down. Here's hoping we get a rematch in Atlanta. That is if Roy decides he gives a s*** about the ACC tournament.

[barjwr]

Doug Gottlieb: "Duke is not as good as their record is." Huh?!?!?!? We played the 4th best schedule of the year and were No 2 in the RPI, and we're not as good as our record?

I buy that UNC is better than their record (when they decide to play), but I don't get that comment at all.

[Chris Randolph]

It's hard to come back from the lowest-scoring first half of the year. Solid second half. Regular season ACC championship doesn't mean anything. On to the ACC Tournament.

Wrong. It means plenty. Every championship means something. If they don't mean anything then why does K put banners in the rafters for them?

[sporthenry]

Coming into this year, if you told me, we'd be #3 ranked team, with the chance at home to win ACC against UNC, I'd take that. This is supposed to be their year yet we were ranked ahead of them. I can't complain too much. We never seemed to play well at Cameron and luckily that is our last game there. K and this team always rebounds from bad losses and if we don't spot them a 20 point lead, we played even with them. Overall, apart from losing to UNC, we did split with them so far and I'd have to think if we see them next weekend, we'll have more motivation. But I do think we can use this as a learning tool, our defense still is lacking, perhaps we can learn in the first two rounds but going into the NCAA tourney, I am more confident than when I started the year.

[CoachJ10]

To paraphrase Herm Edwards "To win the game, you must make shots".

In the first half, we simply just missed a ton of wide open shots. Despite what Dickie V was saying...this was two evenly matched teams (both good at offense, both not so good at defense). They had John Henson hitting 17 foot jumpers...we had missed layups. Sigh.

The Dukies will come back from this.

[CLW]

I disagree about its affect on our defense. We had a monster second half on offense....and still gave up 40 points despite the fact that they were playing stall from 10 minutes out. They're just a really friggin good team, and once we couldn't hit a shot, we couldn't stop them consistently enough to come back

I'm not saying we are a "good" defensive team when we hit shots (clearly we are not). However, we are a really bad defensive team when we do not hit shots and just an average defense when we do. I think K has said several times this year that our offense affects our D.

[uh_no]

Doug Gottlieb: "Duke is not as good as their record is." Huh?!?!?!? We played the 4th best schedule of the year and were No 2 in the RPI, and we're not as good as our record?

I buy that UNC is better than their record (when they decide to play), but I don't get that comment at all.

Having a difficult schedule does not mean that one can not be as good as their record.

[Chris Randolph]

Doug Gottlieb: "Duke is not as good as their record is." Huh?!?!?!? We played the 4th best schedule of the year and were No 2 in the RPI, and we're not as good as our record?

I buy that UNC is better than their record (when they decide to play), but I don't get that comment at all.

Gottlieb hates Duke, plain and simple. Can't say I completely disagree with him but he is always negative towards Duke

[FourWins]

I actually think this is good for going into the ACC tournament. Hope to light a fire and all.

[ncexnyc]

It's hard to come back from the lowest-scoring first half of the year. Solid second half. Regular season ACC championship doesn't mean anything. On to the ACC Tournament.

Well actually it does mean something, such as the #1 seed in the ACC Tournament. While I have no problem facing the heels again, I'd prefer not having to face them after what more than likely is another round of FSU.

[JBDuke]

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am not mistaken there is no such thing as an ACC Regular Season championship. I thought the ACC adopted a rule in like the 60s saying it crowned only one champion (the winner of the ACC tourny).

Until about 1990, you were right. Around that time, the ACC changed its policy and recognized a "Regular Season Champion", but the official winner of the NCAA bid and the tournament champion is still the designated ACC Champion. Al Featherston had a great article a few days ago on DBR talking about all this.

[fisheyes]

;)All of the rest of the games are on the road! ;)

[Highlander]

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am not mistaken there is no such thing as an ACC Regular Season championship. I thought the ACC adopted a rule in like the 60s saying it crowned only one champion (the winner of the ACC tourny).

There has been since 1990. The ACC Champion is officially the winner of the ACC Tournament, but the ACC Regular Season Champion is officially recognized by the league.

[loran16]

1. Okay, bad game. Next Play.

2. 9 Games Left. 9 Games to win.

[barjwr]

Having a difficult schedule does not mean that one can not be as good as their record.

But when you beat most of the good teams on that schedule (6-3 against the top 25), I'd argue that you are.

We beat three of the 5 other potential No 1 seeds on that list of 6 on the graphic during the game.

[lotusland]

I'm glad we went down fighting hard. Hopefully we get a rubber match in the ACCT. Miles and Mason both played strong in the second half. We need more from Ryan and Dre. Hopefully Josh will be ready nexgt weekend. Nothing but neutral court games from here.

[#1Duke]

Carolina played outstanding perimeter defense on our 3 point shooters and their bigs played very well.
If we can't hit 3s we can't win against a team like Carolina.. not to mention our defense wasn't so hot.
We were lucky to get away with an 18 point loss.

[uh_no]

But when you beat most of the good teams on that schedule (6-3 against the top 25), I'd argue that you are.

We beat three of the 5 other potential No 1 seeds on that list of 6 on the graphic during the game.

We beat them in november. and we have won some games that we had absolutely no business winning (UNC, NCSU)

[Highlander]

Well actually it does mean something, such as the #1 seed in the ACC Tournament. While I have no problem facing the heels again, I'd prefer not having to face them after what more than likely is another round of FSU.

This. Biggest advantage of being the #1 seed in the ACC Tourney is getting to avoid a semifinal matchup with the Seminoles. Wish we could have forced UNC to beat both teams that took them down in conference to win the Tournament.

[gumbomoop]

Regular season ACC championship doesn't mean anything. On to the ACC Tournament.

It surely means UNC now has a leg up on Duke for NCAAT 1- seed. Seems as if UK and 'Cuse are certain, with KU, MichSt, UNC, and maybe still Duke fighting for other 1-seeds. I'd think UNC now only needs to make ACCT semis to stay ahead of Duke for a 1-seed, just in case either KU or MichSt falter.

I'll be rooting for OSt at MichSt tomorrow. Also prefer to see Clemson wind up #7 in ACC, so 3 important ACC games tomorrow.

[Bojangles4Eva]

Knew something like this was on the way in CIS with last years comeback and the slaughter the year before. Hopefully we continue our good road play into the ACC and NCAA tourneys. Still, 26-5 in the regular season, 13-3 ACC, thats better than I thought we'd do back in November.

In closing.....at least we didn't loose by 32.

[barjwr]

We beat them in november. and we have won some games that we had absolutely no business winning (UNC, NCSU)

I'm pretty sure that when you score more points than the other team, you have every right to win the game -- I don't recall there being a bylaw in the NCAA that discounts games in which a team was losing before the final buzzer.

[DesertDevil]

While losing to UNC is never fun, I did take enjoyment that when Duke got it down to 11, UNC went away from their style of play & took the air out of the ball. Blowing the game again was definitely in their heads.

I hope Duke sees them in the ACC final. There is no way Duke misses as many open shots as they did in the first 9 minutes of tonight's game.

[sporthenry]

I think Dre needs more time. He didn't really play either UNC game probably b/c of match-ups so in the tourney, he should get more PT b/c we saw what he can do against FSU. Additionally, we won't face a team with that size more than likely for a while. We can conceivably get the #1 seed but as long as we stay away from UK in the bracket, I think we can get to the F4. Put us in the bracket out West with MSU or KU and I'll be satisfied.

[CoachJ10]

Carolina played outstanding perimeter defense on our 3 point shooters and their bigs played very well.
If we can't hit 3s we can't win against a team like Carolina.. not to mention our defense wasn't so hot.
We were lucky to get away with an 18 point loss.

Actually, we had quite a few wide open 3s...they just didn't fall. Most of our 3s were not contested shots.

[dbowen]

11 mins.
1 FGA
0 Pts.
I may not have over 900 wins, but on a night when our offense is not hitting, why not try and get our best shooter some open looks?
His defense may not be the best, but neither was anybody's tonight.
I just can't believe how under utilized Dre has been in some games this year. I mean 11 mins? Cmon.....

[uh_no]

I'm pretty sure that when you score more points than the other team, you have every right to win the game -- I don't recall there being a bylaw in the NCAA that discounts games in which a team was losing before the final buzzer.

Nobodies saying the wins don't count......I was simply providing a justification for Mr. Gottleibs statement.

Its not always about just winning....its often about how you win.....

[MCFinARL]

Answering a post in the in-game thread, which is now closed. Someone said it's odd when Marshall can hit everything but Curry and Dawkins can't. I don't disagree. But Dawkins got to take one shot--at no other time when he was in the game did anyone get the ball to him when he was open, and Coach K didn't give him much time on the court. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't get it. When you are deep in the hole and Seth Curry is going 3-13 and Ryan Kelly is going 1-8 and even Austin Rivers is going 1-6 from 3, wouldn't you a) give Dawkins a chance, and/or b) at least suggest that someone pass to him during the few minutes that you did put him in the game?

I really don't know what has happened between Coach K and Andre over the last two weeks, but honestly, I don't think it's a good sign for our post-season prospects. Duke depends on outside shooting, whether we like it or not, and if some folks aren't hitting, it seems like other folks need to get an opportunity. I didn't see Andre do anything so terrible on defense tonight that it justified abandoning him completely (especially since apparently no one could play good defense in the first half, with the possible exception of Miles).

[throatybeard]

It's not all bad. Our "record by halves" in that game was 1-1.

[Chris Randolph]

11 mins.
1 FGA
0 Pts.
I may not have over 900 wins, but on a night when our offense is not hitting, why not try and get our best shooter some open looks?
His defense may not be the best, but neither was anybody's tonight.
I just can't believe how under utilized Dre has been in some games this year. I mean 11 mins? Cmon.....

Are we really going to start the Andre Dawkins debate again? Get the guy his own thread

[johnny2001]

when you are not athletic, and this team is by no means athletic, you have to work harder than the rest. not only did we not work harder than the rest, we looked like a bunch of kids being awestruck by something they haven't seen before.

i'm tired of having to shoot 3s to offset having weak athletic ability on the glass and on defense. this has been the pattern for upwards of 5 years now. get some athletes coach k because every basket we have to score requires 10x the effort that other teams need because we can't get layups and we can't get short jumpers. nobody except rivers has the ability to generate easy scores. this equation, weak athletes + outside shooting does not equal wins. it equals losses in the long run. there's a reason why we were down by 20 to nc state and won with a miracle. there is a reason why carolina has dominated us for 79 minutes this year. there is a reason why we scrape by teams like wake forest and georgia tech. the equation mentioned above!

this duke team needs to work harder than the opposition to score and when they don't we lose. we were killed tonight. not beaten. killed. that's a fact. that's just a reality. the facts are all in the stats. look at the rebounds. look at the oppositions shooting percentage. it was UGLY!!!

come on duke. you can win. if you try harder and leave it all on the floor because your talent is not going to win you big games from here on out because the opposition likely with have better athletes going forward in these tourney contests.

[uh_no]

Answering a post in the in-game thread, which is now closed. Someone said it's odd when Marshall can hit everything but Curry and Dawkins can't. I don't disagree. But Dawkins got to take one shot--at no other time when he was in the game did anyone get the ball to him when he was open, and Coach K didn't give him much time on the court. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't get it. When you are deep in the hole and Seth Curry is going 3-13 and Ryan Kelly is going 1-8 and even Austin Rivers is going 1-6 from 3, wouldn't you a) give Dawkins a chance, and/or b) at least suggest that someone pass to him during the few minutes that you did put him in the game?

I really don't know what has happened between Coach K and Andre over the last two weeks, but honestly, I don't think it's a good sign for our post-season prospects. Duke depends on outside shooting, whether we like it or not, and if some folks aren't hitting, it seems like other folks need to get an opportunity. I didn't see Andre do anything so terrible on defense tonight that it justified abandoning him completely (especially since apparently no one could play good defense in the first half, with the possible exception of Miles).

In short, no.

You can't force things that aren't there.....what looks like "open" to viewers may not be open for the players on the court. I think more than anything, K trusts the players on the court to make the best decisions. If tyler or austin or whoever else can't get it to dawkins effectivley, then forcing it is probably only going to do more harm than good.

[Highlander]

We beat them in november. and we have won some games that we had absolutely no business winning (UNC, NCSU)

Wins in November count the same as Wins in March. Most teams don't have ANY non conference wins over top 10 teams after January.

As for us having no business beating UNC, we led the entire first half and never trailed by more than 13 in the second. We were fortunate to win, but we were never out of the game.

We have the type of team that can beat anybody, but lose to anybody, so it is tough to get a read on us. If you judge us by how we play to the level of our opponents, you could argue we're no better than an 8/9 seed like Miami.

[Les Grossman]

but then there is the defense to consider

[dbowen]

Are we really going to start the Andre Dawkins debate again? Get the guy his own thread

ya, i guess we should.....

He's not gonna get any better on the bench. I think playing time is all he needs.

[barjwr]

Nobodies saying the wins don't count......I was simply providing a justification for Mr. Gottleibs statement.

Its not always about just winning....its often about how you win.....

Not that I'm equating our team this year to the 2001 squad, but I seem to remember that they "had no business" beating Maryland in College Park and lost a home-season closer to them later in the year. That team had no questions about how they won, and they had a 33-point turnaround in the Final Four.

[jv001]

Nobodies saying the wins don't count......I was simply providing a justification for Mr. Gottleibs statement.

Its not always about just winning....its often about how you win.....

Why would you want to justify anything that idiot says. GoDuke!

[dyedwab]

There is no way Duke misses as many open shots as they did in the first 9 minutes of tonight's game.

I agree with a caveat. Maybe we won't miss as many open shots, but something else might happen. This team has had difficulty playing a full 40 minutes all year, and missing open shots clearly effects how well we play in all other aspects. Chris Collins, in his half time interview, said, once again, that we were knocked back by Carolina's start. I mean, how many games have has that NOT been true about. And its frustrating because, for the better part of 2 decades, most teams come out more fired up against Duke then anyone else. And in a Carolina game?

That said, it was great that we came back, and I think that Mason and Miles (esp Miles) could gain some confidence from their 2nd half performance.

[Duke76]

11 mins.
1 FGA
0 Pts.
I may not have over 900 wins, but on a night when our offense is not hitting, why not try and get our best shooter some open looks?
His defense may not be the best, but neither was anybody's tonight.
I just can't believe how under utilized Dre has been in some games this year. I mean 11 mins? Cmon.....

Wish someone with the team would comment of why Andre is not playing....makes no sense to me when Kelly is missing and Thornton is playing so much on Barnes who ate him up

[hq2]

Plumlees should gain confidence on offensive end from this game. Especially Mason. IF they do then that could be huge going forward into the tournaments. I think we will be fine around the perimeter

Exactly. If we had gone to them more early on, instead of jacking up 3s, we might never have gotten in
such a big hole in the first place. If/when we have the rubber game, they've shown they can play
effectively against Zeller and Henson. With a diversified offense, we can beat them in the Tooney.

[Duvall]

Wish someone with the team would comment of why Andre is not playing....makes no sense to me when Kelly is missing and Thornton is playing so much on Barnes who ate him up

??? Barnes almost shot UNC out of the game. Would have, if Duke hadn't been struggling so much offensively.

[uh_no]

Wins in November count the same as Wins in March. Most teams don't have ANY non conference wins over top 10 teams after January.

As for us having no business beating UNC, we led the entire first half and never trailed by more than 13 in the second. We were fortunate to win, but we were never out of the game.

We have the type of team that can beat anybody, but lose to anybody, so it is tough to get a read on us. If you judge us by how we play to the level of our opponents, you could argue we're no better than an 8/9 seed like Miami.

It's tough, and in Mr. Gottleibs opinion, we have lucked out on a lot of games that we should have won comfortably. You know who else has done the same thing? Syracuse.

If you flip a coin and get 50 heads in a row, its still a 50/50 chance....just happen to have gotten "lucky"

Now, I think that we had losses in games that we should have won (FSU, miami) and wins in games we should have lost (UNC, NCSU) so our record probably is relatively accurate. Mr. Gottleibs opinion differs. That doesn't make it "wrong" or "invalid"

[Chris Randolph]

ya, i guess we should.....

He's not gonna get any better on the bench. I think playing time is all he needs.

And obviously Coach K doesn't think he deserves the minutes. And there really is no point debating what the issue is for a few reasons:

1. We did that this past week in another thread
2. We already know what he does and does not bring to the table when he is in
3. We have no idea what goes on outside of the games that could effect his minutes

[dairedevil]

Congratulations to unc for playing up to expectations and capturing the season title. Sorry that a good effort by Miles resulted in such a sad ending on his Senior night. Good effort by the team in the second half to put the team in position for a comeback (again), even though it didn't work. I hate to see people say that they have no heart. I've never seen this team give up, no matter how big a hole they've dug themselves, they'll try to climb out of it.

What a night shooting by the tarheels. It seemed that they would never miss, no matter what type of shot. It never seems to work that way for Duke - yeah, they may go on a run, somebody might get really hot from 3, but I can't remember a game where the TEAM was scoring effortlessly. Maybe preseason or an early season cupcake? Often, it seems that they really have to work, work, work to get anything going, and this year has been especially hard.

On to the ACC and NCAA tourneys...

[CoachJ10]

Exactly. If we had gone to them more early on, instead of jacking up 3s, we might never have gotten in
such a big hole in the first place. If/when we have the rubber game, they've shown they can play
effectively against Zeller and Henson. With a diversified offense, we can beat them in the Tooney.

Actually, Mason got the ball plenty of times in the first half...he was just not converting. He went up soft and unsure. The second half we fed him and he changed his mindset and went up strong and confident. That is the MP2 we want to see.

[UrinalCake]

The Plumlees should gain some confidence out of their second half performance, hopefully they can apply it if we do get to play UNC again. Foul trouble really hurt them but they held their own against UNC's vaunted front line. Would have liked to have played both Plumlees together more, as that would have put a lot of pressure on them inside, but we just couldn't because of fouls.

What's with all the crazy charge calls? I've never seen anything like that. I think it wound up about even for each team, but I thought almost all of them were blocking fouls.

We made way, way too many mistakes to have a shot at this one. Missed shots, missed layups, missed free throws, missed rebounds... if we play a near-perfect game we can beat them but it wasn't happening tonight.

[Duke76]

In short, no.

You can't force things that aren't there.....what looks like "open" to viewers may not be open for the players on the court. I think more than anything, K trusts the players on the court to make the best decisions. If tyler or austin or whoever else can't get it to dawkins effectivley, then forcing it is probably only going to do more harm than good.

How about running plays for Dawkins coming off picks rather than just putting him in the corner like we did with JJ...catch and shoot...just can't fathom why is is not being used more

[jv001]

Exactly. If we had gone to them more early on, instead of jacking up 3s, we might never have gotten in
such a big hole in the first place. If/when we have the rubber game, they've shown they can play
effectively against Zeller and Henson. With a diversified offense, we can beat them in the Tooney.

I agree that going to them early is a good idea. Inside out is the key to our success, imo. Miles did himself proud in his last game at Cameron. Mason played with a passion that had been missing lately. Maybe this get's both on a long run through the tournaments. GoDuke!

[cspan37421]

Not many, but I loved how Zeller got a big cheer from the Crazies when he was introduced. Last game, someone posted that he only needed something like 2768 more points to become Duke's all-time leading scorer. I respect Zeller (how could you not), but that's funny, and so was the cheer following his introduction.

I also liked how Miles got the first couple buckets for us, including a great pivot move in the post to fake Zeller out of his socks.

[HateCarolina]

K
;)All of the rest of the games are on the road! ;)

Funny because I was thinking the same thing. Glad to see an overall good tone from the other posters on here. Throw away first half for us, but that second half was great especially our intensity level. Looking forward to welcoming the Blue Devils down here to Atlanta. Wonder if Hubert will come down?? I feel like berating him a little bit as a complete homer.

On to the tourneys now and hopefully we can get back on track hitting the 3 ball and the Plumlees can continue there good play in this game (without the dumb pushing in the back fouls).

[devildeac]

This. Biggest advantage of being the #1 seed in the ACC Tourney is getting to avoid a semifinal matchup with the Seminoles. Wish we could have forced UNC to beat both teams that took them down in conference to win the Tournament.

We'll have to beat the 7/10 winner first.

[wgl1228]

Five points:
1. We had plenty of looks in the first but sometimes it just doesn't go down.
2. Good effort in the 2nd but UNC is better than State.
3. No matter how bad Dawkins is on D, Coach K has to allow him to shoot more than once.
4. Kelly inconsistent as usual.
5. Proud of the Plumlees against the best big men in the country not named Anthony Davis.

[uh_no]

How about running plays for Dawkins coming off picks rather than just putting him in the corner like we did with JJ...catch and shoot...just can't fathom why is is not being used more

I don't know, maybe he just wasn't feeling like getting himself open.....I don't know what he was supposed to do or why he didn't get shots....but we did pretty darn good scoring in the second half without him....

[jipops]

I hope there are no meltdowns here. There is no reason for one. Though it was a painful loss to UNC (as if any to UNC aren't extemely painful) there is a ton to be proud of with this group. For 3 halves this season we have gone toe-to-toe with what is arguably the best team in the country employing an abundance of NBA-ready talent. Matchup-wise there is no way we should be hanging with these guys but with the exception of one one-sided half we did.

Great work by our bigs tonight. Obviously all they do in practice is try to set screens;) UNC's just showed they have more talent tonight. And it was a great job by the heels perimeter D to take away the 3 in the 1st half. Also kind of lucky for Duke that Roy got in 'horde the timeouts' mode so Duke could make a push.

[elvis14]

My thoughts after this game:



Very proud of the way our guys kept playing until the final buzzer
Very proud of the way Miles played hard and was effective
Good to see Mason find himself in the second half
Next play

[kmspeaks]

. For all the talk of Miles channeling Zoubek and hopefully becoming like him, it's not happening either.

seriously??
Miles Plumlee tonight- 16 points, 11 rebounds in 26 minutes against 2 of the best post players in the country

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Not giving up on this team. Like a lot of what I saw for about 15 minutes in the second half. Maybe we can figure out a way for this team to believe they are down 15 at the tip. We seem to respond to adversity. So might as well assume it out of the gates. Urgency, urgency, urgency!

[gumbomoop]

ACCT probably pretty open. UNC best team, Duke certainly capable of winning it. I suspect tonight's UNC win makes it highly unlikely that they'd be in same region as UK; that would have been [and still is] highly desirable.

As for what region Duke will wind up in, probably as a 2-seed, I don't know that I much worry about that any more, as if they play well they can make the Final Four no matter who's 1-seed in Duke's region; and if they play poor D and shoot poorly they won't get to the Elite Eight.

UNC certainly responded well to its loss to Duke. Like to think our guys will respond with determination. And much smarter play than in first half tonight. No ball watching. I worry about [several] players' instincts when they habitually ball-watch. If one's team's D is otherwise suspect, sure have to cut down on opponent's second chances. Not tonight.

Superb first half by Heels. And certainly smart enough for most of second. My sense is that Duke's several runs in last 10 minutes were stopped more by Duke mistakes than Heel defense, but if that is uncharitable or sour grapes, I will accept constructive correction.

[dbowen]

And obviously Coach K doesn't think he deserves the minutes. And there really is no point debating what the issue is for a few reasons:

1. We did that this past week in another thread
2. We already know what he does and does not bring to the table when he is in
3. We have no idea what goes on outside of the games that could effect his minutes

I agree with you, but one more point I would like to make is:

Andre seems to bring energy to this team when makes shots and gets back in a defensive stance. He may get beat off the dribble from time to time. But we don't have any 'Elite" defenders that are taking his minutes.
His smile is infectious and is what this team needs when shots by others just aren't dropping. He needs a chance to succeed and thats not gonna happen with his rear end sittin on a foam padded Duke chair. I apologize for bringing it back up and I'll leave it at that.

[OZ]

uh no:
"I hope coach K posts a paper in the locker room this week that just says

42-22"


Enlighten me as to the meaning of this.

[uh_no]

My thoughts after this game:



Very proud of the way our guys kept playing until the final buzzer
Very proud of the way Miles played hard and was effective
Good to see Mason find himself in the second half
Next play


for certain! When it was back up to 22 and then we got it down to 11.....never thought we'd bring it down....we ran out of gas

the plumlees were fantastic....hopefully that's what we get going forward....miles was great....the ball fake on the first possesion was glorious

gotta figure out how to rebound against these guys if we meet them again....42-22....they're always going to outrebound us...they're better at it....but we need to close the gap.....given the huge numbers of shots we missed padded their defensive numbers

[hurleyfor3]

some positive spin....

1. unc is, in fact, pretty darn good. I figured we still had a chance the first time we got it down to 11. Unc remembered the last game and this time decided to finish.
2. roy never cares about the acc tournament. So we can still win that.
3. We won't be in unc's bracket, and we can still play not to be in ky's or cuse's. This matters more than one game against unc.
4. Given our first half performance, coulda been worse.
5. This was our last non-elimination game. If this is the lower limit of how we play at this point, that's good news.

[Albert]

Let's right this ship and the tone of this thread.

I got as down or as angry as I was going to get about halfway through the first half.

I appreciate the way our boys fought back.

I love Miles, and I am moved by the way Mason fought. Perhaps for Duke, perhaps for his brother, likely for both. Including Pops Plumlee's emotion at the end of the game, the entire Plumlee family showed you why Duke, and the privilege to be a fan of this program, are special things in this world. If you're looking for something positive to take away, look no further than Miles and Mason -- we saw Mason emerge from his recent doldrums, and maybe following tonight this team will finally hit on all cylinders the way that UNC, to their great credit, did tonight.

If you offered me at the beginning of this season that we would beat Carolina exactly once, I would have taken it against Door #2. That said, let's go out and win the ACC Tourney.

[mr. synellinden]

I think Dre needs more time. He didn't really play either UNC game probably b/c of match-ups so in the tourney, he should get more PT b/c we saw what he can do against FSU. Additionally, we won't face a team with that size more than likely for a while. We can conceivably get the #1 seed but as long as we stay away from UK in the bracket, I think we can get to the F4. Put us in the bracket out West with MSU or KU and I'll be satisfied.

If you can, go back and watch the beginning of the game when Andre got his first playing time. On one of his first possessions he let his man (Bullock I think) go right past him for an offensive rebound and an easy put back. I don't think he even pretended to try to box him out. That is why Andre doesn't get more minutes. It is a matter of effort, determination and fundamentals with him. Without those, he (nor any Duke player) won't get much playing time, no matter how well they can shoot.

[HB TAYLOR]

Answering a post in the in-game thread, which is now closed. Someone said it's odd when Marshall can hit everything but Curry and Dawkins can't. I don't disagree. But Dawkins got to take one shot--at no other time when he was in the game did anyone get the ball to him when he was open, and Coach K didn't give him much time on the court. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't get it. When you are deep in the hole and Seth Curry is going 3-13 and Ryan Kelly is going 1-8 and even Austin Rivers is going 1-6 from 3, wouldn't you a) give Dawkins a chance, and/or b) at least suggest that someone pass to him during the few minutes that you did put him in the game?

I really don't know what has happened between Coach K and Andre over the last two weeks, but honestly, I don't think it's a good sign for our post-season prospects. Duke depends on outside shooting, whether we like it or not, and if some folks aren't hitting, it seems like other folks need to get an opportunity. I didn't see Andre do anything so terrible on defense tonight that it justified abandoning him completely (especially since apparently no one could play good defense in the first half, with the possible exception of Miles).

I agree for this particular game, hard to base an offensive performance on just 1 shot attempt. But, I believe the coaching staff is recognizing the obvious, Dre's game consists of the 3pt shot and.........nothing else. He is a 6-5 guard that cannot handle the ball nor take anyone off the dribble and his entire game depends on him hitting early shots. As I stated previously I do agree with you on this game.

[CoachJ10]

ACCT probably pretty open. UNC best team, Duke certainly capable of winning it. I suspect tonight's UNC win makes it highly unlikely that they'd be in same region as UK; that would have been [and still is] highly desirable.

As for what region Duke will wind up in, probably as a 2-seed, I don't know that I much worry about that any more, as if they play well they can make the Final Four no matter who's 1-seed in Duke's region; and if they play poor D and shoot poorly they won't get to the Elite Eight.

UNC certainly responded well to its loss to Duke. Like to think our guys will respond with determination. And much smarter play than in first half tonight. No ball watching. I worry about [several] players' instincts when they habitually ball-watch. If one's team's D is otherwise suspect, sure have to cut down on opponent's second chances. Not tonight.

Superb first half by Heels. And certainly smart enough for most of second. My sense is that Duke's several runs in last 10 minutes were stopped more by Duke mistakes than Heel defense, but if that is uncharitable or sour grapes, I will accept constructive correction.

I agree. The poor shooting of the Devils certainly masked the fact that UNC doesn't play great defense either. I won't hold my breath to wait to hear ole' Hubert mention that...

[Chris Randolph]

uh no:
"I hope coach K posts a paper in the locker room this week that just says

42-22"


Enlighten me as to the meaning of this.

My guess is that was the rebound margin

[HateCarolina]

when you are not athletic, and this team is by no means athletic, you have to work harder than the rest. not only did we not work harder than the rest, we looked like a bunch of kids being awestruck by something they haven't seen before.

i'm tired of having to shoot 3s to offset having weak athletic ability on the glass and on defense. this has been the pattern for upwards of 5 years now. get some athletes coach k because every basket we have to score requires 10x the effort that other teams need because we can't get layups and we can't get short jumpers. nobody except rivers has the ability to generate easy scores. this equation, weak athletes + outside shooting does not equal wins. it equals losses in the long run. there's a reason why we were down by 20 to nc state and won with a miracle. there is a reason why carolina has dominated us for 79 minutes this year. there is a reason why we scrape by teams like wake forest and georgia tech. the equation mentioned above!

this duke team needs to work harder than the opposition to score and when they don't we lose. we were killed tonight. not beaten. killed. that's a fact. that's just a reality. the facts are all in the stats. look at the rebounds. look at the oppositions shooting percentage. it was UGLY!!!

come on duke. you can win. if you try harder and leave it all on the floor because your talent is not going to win you big games from here on out because the opposition likely with have better athletes going forward in these tourney contests.

Aha...the unathletic argument raises it's ugly head. Three words to dispel this notion: 2010 National Champions.

[Rogue]

Well that was a huge hoover vacuum game.. sucked from the beginning.

Best thing, we don't have to wait long.. ACCT next week..

Move on.. get mentally tough.

[Chris Randolph]

I agree with you, but one more point I would like to make is:

Andre seems to bring energy to this team when makes shots and gets back in a defensive stance. He may get beat off the dribble from time to time. But we don't have any 'Elite" defenders that are taking his minutes.
His smile is infectious and is what this team needs when shots by others just aren't dropping. He needs a chance to succeed and thats not gonna happen with his rear end sittin on a foam padded Duke chair. I apologize for bringing it back up and I'll leave it at that.

The problem with this is the word "when." He should bring energy/effort from the get go. It should not be determined on whether or not he hits some shots or does some positive things elsewhere. His smile has nothing to do with the game of basketball

[OZ]

My guess is that was the rebound margin



Thanks... I tried to forget that!

[g-money]

1. We did that this past week in another thread
2. We already know what he does and does not bring to the table when he is in
3. We have no idea what goes on outside of the games that could effect his minutes

Let me address your points:

1. Yes, but that's why this is a discussion board. After a game in which 3-point baskets could really have helped us claw back, it's a legitimate question to ask.
2. You're right - he brings very good three point shooting and mediocre defense. But in the short amount of time he played tonight, I didn't see any major defensive blunders out of Andre. There was certainly nothing worse than the mistakes made by the rest of our guards.
3. True.

To me the way Coach K is handling Andre is reminiscent of the way he handled Miles last year - with a quick hook. On the surface I don't like this philosophy because it makes players too afraid to make mistakes. However, I must admit that I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.

What I do know is that when Andre plays well, we usually win. As a result it seems to me he should be given more of a chance. Hopefully he'll get one next year when he's a senior.

[jipops]

My sense is that Duke's several runs in last 10 minutes were stopped more by Duke mistakes than Heel defense, but if that is uncharitable or sour grapes, I will accept constructive correction.

Yet excellent defense is quite often the cause of a team making dumb mistakes. Make no mistake, UNC played some great defense tonight. We didn't get the kind of looks we had in the Dean dome from the perimeter, not in the 1st half at least. That crazy run they went on in the beginning was mostly due to UNC's perimeter D and their ability to quickly recover inside. The defense they played during that sequence was as good as you'll see from anybody.

[uh_no]

uh no:
"I hope coach K posts a paper in the locker room this week that just says

42-22"


Enlighten me as to the meaning of this.

that was the rebound margin. I thought it might have been becuase we missed more shots but we missed 37...they missed 30

that's not 20 rebounds worth.

we need to close that gap.

[HateCarolina]

Does anyone have video or a still shot of Mason's monster, flying through the air, tomahawk dunk? That was one of my few "happy moments" from this game.

[OZ]

Obviously, we had some important guests in the house tonight.

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

[NYC Duke Fan]

Let me start off saying that in my opinion this is one of the finast coaching jobs that Coach K has done in quite some. He deserves to be coach of the year in the ACC and in the running for coach of the year in all of basketball, although that will not happen. He got the most out of this team...kudos to him.

That said, I just do not not think that this team is nearly as good as its ranking. If it gets a number 2 seed, which it probably will, it could be one of the weakest number 2 seeds. There is a possibility that they could lose in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

UNC is just much better than Duke, as are many, many teams, and I just do not understand why Duke has had so much trouble at home this year.

[stixof96]

You can't beat a good team like UNC by playing well for one half. Poor showing tonight.

[jv001]

that was the rebound margin. I thought it might have been becuase we missed more shots but we missed 37...they missed 30

that's not 20 rebounds worth.

we need to close that gap.

I agree that we need to close that gap. Our guards did not help out on that phase of the game tonight. I saw Curry fail to blockout a guard that either kept the ball alive or put the ball in the hoop. Against unc, everyone must rebound because they crash the boards and they have a terrific front line. GoDuke!

[hurleyfor3]

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

While our rival may have the edge in talent this year, and may have had a better game plan, we didn't quit.

[elvis14]

Let's right this ship and the tone of this thread.

I got as down or as angry as I was going to get about halfway through the first half.

I appreciate the way our boys fought back.

I love Miles, and I am moved by the way Mason fought. Perhaps for Duke, perhaps for his brother, likely for both. Including Pops Plumlee's emotion at the end of the game, the entire Plumlee family showed you why Duke, and the privilege to be a fan of this program, are special things in this world. If you're looking for something positive to take away, look no further than Miles and Mason -- we saw Mason emerge from his recent doldrums, and maybe following tonight this team will finally hit on all cylinders the way that UNC, to their great credit, did tonight.

If you offered me at the beginning of this season that we would beat Carolina exactly once, I would have taken it against Door #2. That said, let's go out and win the ACC Tourney.

That's a great paragraph about the Plumlees Albert. The Mason we saw tonight is not the Mason that's been around for the last few games. That's a good sign!

[jv001]

Obviously, we had some important guests in the house tonight.

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

Maybe; "hey I can play defense that well", lol. GoDuke!

[uh_no]

Obviously, we had some important guests in the house tonight.

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

probably that I can come here and make a difference....that this team plays their butts off...brought the gap from 26 down to 11.....

[cptnflash]

Not much to say, we just got beaten by a better team. UNC scored on their first 9 possessions, while we couldn't hit a shot early. Dug a massive hole right away and couldn't ever get out of it. I was proud of the way the guys fought in the second half, and we actually did have a chance to make it a game with about 5 minutes left. We were down 11 when Seth got a wide open look at a 3... and missed. Then we got a stop, Rivers got fouled, and missed the front end of a 1-and-1. If, instead of missing those shots, we make them (and Rivers' ensuing second free throw), suddenly it's a 2 possession game (i.e., UNC has a 6 point lead) with about 4 minutes left, we have all the momentum, and UNC has that "oh no, not again" feeling. That was our one chance to win. Unfortunately, Seth missed a shot he usually hits, and Rivers continued to struggle from the line. But the truth is that UNC deserved to win. They're the better team, and they played a great game tonight.

I hope we see them again next Sunday.

[vick]

For what it's worth, I think it's somewhat interesting to look at what difference was accounted for by teams shooting differently from their three point percentages (which is probably fairly random (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/the_3-point_line_is_a_lottery/)) and free throw percentages (which is almost certainly random). I did this on the fly, and might have made a mistake, but I get that Duke "lost" 9 points vs. UNC coming up essentially flat. This is actually probably an underestimation since it didn't include lost opportunities on one-and-ones, so the real difference was probably in the ~10 point range, which conforms with what it felt like to me watching, which is that if the shooting wasn't that bad, it would have been a high single-digits game. That's a problem, but not unsurmountable (although, a high-variance strategy does leave you more vulnerable to a early upset, on the other hand, it gives you more of a shot to beat a team like Kentucky).


UNC 3PM 3PA FTA FTM 3P% FT% Gain/(Loss) on 3 Gain/(Loss) on FT Total Change
Zeller 0 0 1 1 0% 80% 0.0 0.2 0.2
Henson 0 0 3 4 0% 50% 0.0 1.0 1.0
Barnes 1 3 3 4 40% 73% -0.6 0.1 -0.5
Bullock 2 6 0 0 39% 83% -1.0 0.0 -1.0
Marshall 1 3 5 6 31% 70% 0.2 0.8 1.0
Watts 0 0 0 0 0% 40% 0.0 0.0 0.0
White 0 0 0 0 23% 44% 0.0 0.0 0.0
Hairston 0 1 0 0 28% 86% -0.8 0.0 -0.8
McAdoo 0 0 0 0 0% 60% 0.0 0.0 0.0
Total 4 13 12 15 -2.2 2.1 -0.2

Duke 3PM 3PA FTA FTM 3P% FT% Gain/(Loss) on 3 Gain/(Loss) on FT Total Change
Plumlee (Mi) 0 0 2 3 0% 63% 0.0 0.1 0.1
Kelly 0 5 0 0 43% 81% -6.5 0.0 -6.5
Curry 3 5 3 4 39% 87% 3.1 -0.5 2.6
Thornton 2 3 0 0 37% 74% 2.7 0.0 2.7
Rivers 1 6 4 7 39% 65% -4.1 -0.5 -4.6
Dawkins 0 1 0 0 41% 74% -1.2 0.0 -1.2
Plumlee (Mas) 0 0 3 5 0% 51% 0.0 0.5 0.5
Hairston 0 0 0 0 0% 67% 0.0 0.0 0.0
Cook 0 1 0 2 41% 80% -1.2 -1.6 -2.8
Total 6 21 12 21 -7.2 -2.0 -9.2

[jipops]

Let me start off saying that in my opinion this is one of the finast coaching jobs that Coach K has done in quite some. He deserves to be coach of the year in the ACC and in the running for coach of the year in all of basketball, although that will not happen. He got the most out of this team...kudos to him.

That said, I just do not not think that this team is nearly as good as its ranking. If it gets a number 2 seed, which it probably will, it could be one of the weakest number 2 seeds. There is a possibility that they could lose in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

UNC is just much better than Duke, as are many, many teams, and I just do not understand why Duke has had so much trouble at home this year.

I kind of agree and kind of don't. Really, K does this pretty much all the frikin' time! Yea, Duke has talent that other teams would be very envious of. But every single year K finds some way to compensate for the numerous existing weaknesses with good degree of success. We've seen college teams at the same level of this years' Duke team crumble for stretches of the season due to lack of athleticism, poor defensive positioning, lack of true pg, etc... Yet this team always managed to pick itself up after being down, and it wasn't down very much. Heck, even the 2007 team made the tournament and I think it is always discounted what an achievement that was. You will never see a Duke version of 2010 UNC on K's watch. That is a tribute to K's work.

[uh_no]

For what it's worth, I think it's somewhat interesting to look at what difference was accounted for by teams shooting differently from their three point percentages (which is probably fairly random (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/the_3-point_line_is_a_lottery/)) and free throw percentages (which is almost certainly random).

I did an analysis earlier this week, and as it turns out, there is actually less variance in our ability to score from three than there is from two, extraordinary shooting nights are much more likely to be bad than good.

It goes against conventional wisdom that we are actually more consistent shooting three pointers, but it means that game planning to shoot a lot of threes may actually be the way to go for this team.

[UrinalCake]

we actually did have a chance to make it a game with about 5 minutes left. We were down 11 when Seth got a wide open look at a 3... and missed. Then we got a stop, Rivers got fouled, and missed the front end of a 1-and-1. If, instead of missing those shots, we make them (and Rivers' ensuing second free throw), suddenly it's a 2 possession game...

Yeah, if you're going to come back from a 24-point hole, you have to play pretty much perfectly. At the same time we had that 11-point deficit, they showed a stat that we were 10-18 from the free throw line. Hit all of them and we're only down 3 (plus whatever we lost from missed one-and-ones).

Last year after the ACC tournament Bob Knight did an interview where he talked about the dramatic turnaround from Duke losing in Chapel Hill to dominating them a week later in the ACCT final. He said that UNC had spent a whole week having everyone tell them how great they were, while Duke had spent the week mad as hell and wanting to prove they were better than that. Here's hoping history repeats itself.

[gumbomoop]

Yet excellent defense is quite often the cause of a team making dumb mistakes. Make no mistake, UNC played some great defense tonight. We didn't get the kind of looks we had in the Dean dome from the perimeter, not in the 1st half at least. That crazy run they went on in the beginning was mostly due to UNC's perimeter D and their ability to quickly recover inside. The defense they played during that sequence was as good as you'll see from anybody.

I think we may be talking past each other. My post was about the last 10 minutes, whereas here you refer to first half.

We might even disagree about first half, as I agree with those posters who have noted that Duke got plenty of open looks in first half.

Actually what most impressed me about Heels, and depressed me about Devils, was their guards hitting O-boards, and our guards ball-watching. Mason and Miles were only slightly outrebounded by Zeller and Henson. But our perimeter guys - who must, must, must block out - didn't.

[dukelifer]

some positive spin....

1. unc is, in fact, pretty darn good. I figured we still had a chance the first time we got it down to 11. Unc remembered the last game and this time decided to finish.
2. roy never cares about the acc tournament. So we can still win that.
3. We won't be in unc's bracket, and we can still play not to be in ky's or cuse's. This matters more than one game against unc.
4. Given our first half performance, coulda been worse.
5. This was our last non-elimination game. If this is the lower limit of how we play at this point, that's good news.

Duke does not match up well with UNC. UNC is not deep and an ACC tourney could be tough for them. Still, I am surprised how well UNC has managed to play after losing Strickland. I think Roy deserves some credit for getting his guys to play down the stretch. Duke is a good but not a great team. At the beginning of the season if you had told me Duke would have finished one game behind UNC and beat them once- I think I would have taken it. The loss tonight says that Duke may not have what it takes to win the NCAA crown- but they have had a very good year. And if you do not think this game is important - every Duke NCAA championship team has beaten UNC in the last regular season game and every UNC NCAA championship team has beaten Duke in the last regular season game. This game is a measure of how well a team can handle the big moment at the end of the year. We will see if UNC can ride this win.

[gep]

Sometimes, it's just "not your night". When so many open looks miss, and drives to the basket miss, and Henson "throws" in a left-handed hook off balance and gets fouled... well, it's very hard to overcome.

But, the next 9 games are all on neutral courts... yes, I said 9 games:cool:

And, maybe a #2 seed in the East close to home is better than a #1 seed out West?

I also have a good feeling for the ACCT. ANYTHING can happen.

[Greg_Newton]

That could have gone better.

Thought we would have had a shot if Curry had hit that wide open 3 with ~5:30 left to cut it to 8. Oh well. Hate to get beat, hate to get beat by Carolina even more, hate to get beat by Carolina at home even more, hate to get humiliated by Carolina at home the most. They had some punks behind their bench tonight who thought they were real cool. Also thought it was pretty classless of Barnes and Marshall to mockingly join in Miles' Plumlee's last applause.

At least we're still +14 against UNC during the last two season-finales at Cameron. :cool:

[CoachJ10]

I think we may be talking past each other. My post was about the last 10 minutes, whereas here you refer to first half.

We might even disagree about first half, as I agree with those posters who have noted that Duke got plenty of open looks in first half.

Actually what most impressed me about Heels, and depressed me about Devils, was their guards hitting O-boards, and our guards ball-watching. Mason and Miles were only slightly outrebounded by Zeller and Henson. But our perimeter guys - who must, must, must block out - didn't.


Great point...it has been noticeable all season long that our perimeter players (in particular) need to help out on the boards by boxing out the bigger and stronger guards that they are guarding.

[HateCarolina]

I think we may be talking past each other. My post was about the last 10 minutes, whereas here you refer to first half.

We might even disagree about first half, as I agree with those posters who have noted that Duke got plenty of open looks in first half.

Actually what most impressed me about Heels, and depressed me about Devils, was their guards hitting O-boards, and our guards ball-watching. Mason and Miles were only slightly outrebounded by Zeller and Henson. But our perimeter guys - who must, must, must block out - didn't.

I absolutely agree that our guards need to block out better, but how much of the out rebounding by the guards/small forward is due to our lack of height/a prototypical small forward? I'm just curious about other's POV.

[bdeviled11]

And it really hurt Duke's momentum. I think Tyler Thornton's defense on Barnes really got into his head, and proved to be disruptive and helped the attempted comeback a lot. Duke had a shot to get it in single digits several times during one sequence, and I think the pressure of the game proved to be overwhelming.
However, I don't think this win makes Carolina an automatic one seed. However, both teams have to make the Final in the ACC tourney for that to be true. It still seems like something is off between Curry and Rivers. I still think a lot of role players (Curry and Kelly in particular) are trying to fill some roles that they aren't built for. And I'm not taking anything away from them, I think it is what it is. I think Cook is more talented than Thornton, but I think Thornton fills his role much better. Thornton just really reminds me of Wojo. Purely speculation, but I wonder if Tyler is like the glue guy between the veterans, and the newcomers.
I do think the Carolina team is very similar to Duke's last Championship team, but have a ton more talent. I really do wonder who the better coach is, Williams or Calipari? Even though I don't think either are a very good game coach, I think they both recruit really well, and I think Calipari is a better leader. I don't think Calipari is a better leader than Krzyzewski.

Just a bunch of random thoughts. I don't think this loss is the end of the world, Duke and Carolina are now tied 1-1. I think this loss is a byproduct of a team that had to prove something, and a more inexperienced "big time game" team. Duke has a tournament team, could go on a pretty good run. But I think Curry and Rivers need to figure out who they are to this team, and vice versa. I wonder if Curry can help facilitate Rivers instead of competing with him. They really remind me of N. Smith and K. Irving last year, even though the circumstances are completely different.

[dukeofcalabash]

Sometimes, it's just "not your night". When so many open looks miss, and drives to the basket miss, and Henson "throws" in a left-handed hook off balance and gets fouled... well, it's very hard to overcome.

But, the next 9 games are all on neutral courts... yes, I said 9 games:cool:

And, maybe a #2 seed in the East close to home is better than a #1 seed out West?

I also have a good feeling for the ACCT. ANYTHING can happen.

I like your attitude!

[gumbomoop]

.... we actually did have a chance to make it a game with about 5 minutes left. We were down 11 when Seth got a wide open look at a 3... and missed. Then we got a stop, Rivers got fouled, and missed the front end of a 1-and-1. If, instead of missing those shots, we make them (and Rivers' ensuing second free throw), suddenly it's a 2 possession game (i.e., UNC has a 6 point lead) with about 4 minutes left, we have all the momentum, and UNC has that "oh no, not again" feeling. [1] That was our one chance to win. Unfortunately, Seth missed a shot he usually hits, and Rivers continued to struggle from the line. But the truth is that [2] UNC deserved to win. They're the better team, and they played a great game tonight.

[3] I hope we see them again next Sunday.

Good points.

[1] That was the exciting moment, and became the deflating moment.

[2] Yep.

[3] Me, too, though naturally I wouldn't be depressed if UNC dropped out early. ACCT seeds still to be determined. Interesting games tomorrow. Looks like Duke will have tougher road. No way UNC loses to 8-9 winner. Clemson still a possible 7-seed, which I'd prefer, because they're beatable, possibly by 10-seed, and certainly by 2-seed. Whoever that is.

[Duvall]

It surely means UNC now has a leg up on Duke for NCAAT 1- seed. Seems as if UK and 'Cuse are certain, with KU, MichSt, UNC, and maybe still Duke fighting for other 1-seeds. I'd think UNC now only needs to make ACCT semis to stay ahead of Duke for a 1-seed, just in case either KU or MichSt falter.


I don't think that's true, or true in any sense that matters. Tonight's loss only counts once towards either team's total body of work.

[CDu]

If you had told me that the Plumlees would outscore Henson and Zeller and that Barnes would have a horrible shooting night, I'd have felt REALLY good about our chances to win. Unfortunately, our guards and Kelly just couldn't quite do enough. Kelly (1-8), Curry (3-13), and Dawkins (essentially a no-show) just had bad nights. Getting a combined 14 points on 22 shots from three of our top scorers isn't going to cut it against a team as good as UNC.

Great game from Miles tonight. He has really stepped up down the stretch. He played the ACC Player of the Year to a standstill tonight. He should be very proud of himself. Mason stepped up with the scoring, but 4 rebounds just isn't enough. Still, can't complain with a 17-point night from him, along with 2 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks. Good defense from Thornton on Barnes. Thornton really frustrated him.

UNC was thought to be the better team coming into the season. I think they're probably the better team on average. Our margin for error against them is slim, and we didn't come close to playing our best ball tonight. That said, I like that we fought back in the second half. Had Curry's 3 fallen with about 5 minutes to go, I think we might just have pulled off the comeback. But failing to score on consecutive chances to cut the lead to single digits pretty much sealed our fate.

Hopefully we'll have better fortunes in the ACC and NCAA tournament. This was tough to take, but hopefully we can build on the good aspects (basically the Plumlees' scoring and the fight in the second half).

[Class of '94]

[/B]

Great point...it has been noticeable all season long that our perimeter players (in particular) need to help out on the boards by boxing out the bigger and stronger guards that they are guarding.

I agree that the guards need to help out in boxing out and gang rebounding because we have an undersized perimeter. That said, I was very proud of the performance of Miles and the second half performance of Mason as many posters have pointed out. In all honesty, I'm not surprised that Carolina spanked us tonight; they've been stewing over this game for a few weeks now and we just don't play well at home. I think the performances of MIles and Mason could bode well for this team in the ACCT and the NCAAT; and I don't agree with the assertion that this team is not as good as its record. When guys have been on this team can beat anybody; the problem with this team is consistency with everyone not named Austin, Seth and Tyler although Miles has really stepped it up the last few weeks. How is it Ryan can playt confident and shoot well one game like against Wake Forest and com,pletely stink it up in the followng game or a big game like tonight? And Dre, when he is on, appears to play big on the road and tends to disappear at home.

We need Dre and Ryan Kelly to be consistent from here on out in order to win or we may have problems making it to the sweet 16. The other positive is that this team has a track record of being sharper on the road and I think we are going to be fine in the ACCT and personally I think we're going to use the sting of this loss to do really well in the NCAAT. I could see us returning the favor to Carolina and beating them in the ACCT (if they make it to the championship game).

[FerryFor50]

Free throws. Gah. Under 70% on the year. Worst I can remember a Duke team shooting.

3 point shooting. Double gah.

But a good regular season, if not a little needlessly tense. 1-1 against the hated rivals. Top 10 going in to the ACC tourney.

Not a bad year at all!

[Kfanarmy]

when you are not athletic, and this team is by no means athletic, you have to work harder than the rest. not only did we not work harder than the rest, we looked like a bunch of kids being awestruck by something they haven't seen before.

i'm tired of having to shoot 3s to offset having weak athletic ability on the glass and on defense.. How many threes did you shoot?

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I said beforehand the key to the game was rebounding. It kinda was. Bullock's offensive rebounding was unexpected, but really hurt. He had an outstanding game. The Plumlees actually hung tough with Zeller/Henson, but their backcourt outplayed ours.

It was just one of those games when nothing went right.

When Seth Curry barely hit the rim on a free throw, I knew something wasn't right. My stomach sank.

I have to say, I am disappointed that was the best we could do on our home court against our arch rival. There is no excuse. That was pathetic. Thank God, we don't have to play at Cameron again this year. I am just going to forget about about 2011-2012 at Cameron.

With that being said, next play!

[WakeDevil]

Doug Gottlieb: "Duke is not as good as their record is." Huh?!?!?!? We played the 4th best schedule of the year and were No 2 in the RPI, and we're not as good as our record?

I buy that UNC is better than their record (when they decide to play), but I don't get that comment at all.

The overrated RPI strikes again. Duke is not the second best team. More like top eight or so.

[Duvall]

The overrated RPI strikes again. Duke is not the second best team. More like top eight or so.

Which is pretty much where their record puts them. Just Gottlieb being Gottlieb.

[Kfanarmy]

We didn't get the kind of looks we had in the Dean dome from the perimeter, not in the 1st half at least. That crazy run they went on in the beginning was mostly due to UNC's perimeter D and their ability to quickly recover inside. The defense they played during that sequence was as good as you'll see from anybody.
The first half a dozen, maybe more, shots Duke missed were wide open on the perimeter...not sure what game you were watching, but Duke actually shot better later in the 1st half when Carolina was playing D...Duke simply couldn't hit there ___ with both hands, except for the Senior in the first 10 minutes...had almost nothing to do with Carolina's D...if Duke was shooting well, both teams would have been in the mid 40s at half.

[uh_no]

The first half a dozen, maybe more, shots Duke missed were wide open on the perimeter...not sure what game you were watching, but Duke actually shot better later in the 1st half when Carolina was playing D...Duke simply couldn't hit there ___ with both hands, except for the Senior in the first 10 minutes...had almost nothing to do with Carolina's D...if Duke was shooting well, both teams would have been in the mid 40s at half.

Spot on.

Mason was missing layups, seth was missing layups, the threes were bricking....nothing falling. Personally i think we came up so jacked up that it got the shooting off....then once we calmed down a bit we were already down 22-5.

the rest of the game was 66-65....almost dead even

need to work on getting settled down much more quickly....playing with energy, but not so much that it inhibits good play

[mapei]

Which is pretty much where their record puts them. Just Gottlieb being Gottlieb.

I think Gottlieb had a good point. We were ranked #3 going into tonight's game, but I don't think we were the third best team in the country. Top 10, probably yes. But I think Gottlieb would agree to that. We have been a largely successful but very flawed (defense) team this year, which isn't the end of the world considering we lost two all-Americans and the #1 NBA pick who never really had a chance at Duke. This was objectively a rebuilding year of sorts, but Rivers turned out to be good enough to mask that at times.

[uh_no]

I think Gottlieb had a good point. We were ranked #3 going into tonight's game, but I don't think we were the third best team in the country. Top 10, probably yes. But I think Gottlieb would agree to that. We have been a largely successful but very flawed (defense) team this year, which isn't the end of the world considering we lost two all-Americans and the #1 NBA pick who never really had a chance at Duke. This was objectively a rebuilding year of sorts, but Rivers turned out to be good enough to mask that at times.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-l5jq2U-8x7Q/T0ezxF184mI/AAAAAAABHbg/gTmJqix2Xpw/SOON-meme-1%25255B2%25255D.jpg

i don't know if its in the tournaments this year, or next year when we have almost all our pieces back (assuming mason and austin stay, which is becoming better chances lately imo) plus adding marshall and alex......

don't wan't to give up on this year, but whatever happens, we're going to have a heck of a team next year

anyway, forget that.....on to the ACC tournament!

[dukelifer]

I think Gottlieb had a good point. We were ranked #3 going into tonight's game, but I don't think we were the third best team in the country. Top 10, probably yes. But I think Gottlieb would agree to that. We have been a largely successful but very flawed (defense) team this year, which isn't the end of the world considering we lost two all-Americans and the #1 NBA pick who never really had a chance at Duke. This was objectively a rebuilding year of sorts, but Rivers turned out to be good enough to mask that at times.

But Duke is certainly good enough to get to a Final Four- a task that can be made much easier when the supposed best teams start to fall. It is all about match-ups and team health from here on out.

[Kfanarmy]

I didn't record the game, but can someone tell me what the Duke guards were doing when Carolina shot the ball? If The Plums play H&Z even, how do the guards give up so many rebounds...that isn't about height...if Duke players are simply between the Carolina guards and the basket, Henson and Zeller are left to fight the plums for the ball...how many times did a guard from Carolina get a rebound from starting out on the three point line...were Duke's players heading to the offensive end immediately when the ball went up? standing watching? Seriously I'm not trying to be insulting, I really don't understand HOW they let the Carolina guards run freely to the basket to get rebounds...

[Edouble]

Last year after the ACC tournament Bob Knight did an interview where he talked about the dramatic turnaround from Duke losing in Chapel Hill to dominating them a week later in the ACCT final. He said that UNC had spent a whole week having everyone tell them how great they were, while Duke had spent the week mad as hell and wanting to prove they were better than that. Here's hoping history repeats itself.

I think it did... tonight. UNC lost on their home court to us in the worst way possible. Hearing the little blip from Roy's post-game after the early February game, it seems pretty clear that he probably motivated/shamed them pretty hard to get them ready for the game tonight. The expressions and their demeanor following that game makes me think of a puppy with its tail between its legs. Tonight the puppy came in like a pit bull looking for Duke's throat.

Coach K is the master motivator, but I'm not sure our team could have been more motivated that the 'Heels were tonight. From a psychological standpoint, in a weird way, Austin's shot just gave them the edge towards getting amped up to play us. They felt that they were wronged... they've been sitting on that for 3 weeks, and we didn't come out from the tip ready for it.

The shots we missed at the start of the contest, and our ability to somehow "turn it on" in the 2nd half when we no longer had anything to lose point me towards the mental character of this team. A macro example is Mason's play over the last 3-4 games... where has he been? Was he sick? Did he break up with his girlfriend? Whatever it was, did it magically get better in the locker room at halftime?

I think this is an extremely talented bunch of Blue Devils. If Miles plays like he played tonight (and I do believe he is capable of playing that way every night) and Mason plays the we we know that he is capable of... that is a scary frontcourt. Austin is Austin--deadly, polished, lethal, and a winner. With that nucleus, plus Seth, Quinn, Tyler, and Ryan, I think we are more than capable of giving anyone a very difficult game. To me, this team just needs to bulk up mentally. The pieces are there. We lack in determination, heart, whatever you want to call it. We showed it in the 2nd half, but in the 1st, it did not match what Carolina brought to the table. It hurts to say this, but in all fairness, UNC probably deserved to win more than we did. I think we can have a great post-season if we want to.

[mapei]

But Duke is certainly good enough to get to a Final Four- a task that can be made much easier when the supposed best teams start to fall. It is all about match-ups and team health from here on out.

Absolutely. And so are about a dozen teams. The team that gets and stays hot at the right time wins a single-elimination tournament.

[FerryFor50]

I think it did... tonight. UNC lost on their home court to us in the worst way possible. Hearing the little blip from Roy's post-game after the early February game, it seems pretty clear that he probably motivated/shamed them pretty hard to get them ready for the game tonight. The expressions and their demeanor following that game makes me think of a puppy with its tail between its legs. Tonight the puppy came in like a pit bull looking for Duke's throat.

Coach K is the master motivator, but I'm not sure our team could have been more motivated that the 'Heels were tonight. From a psychological standpoint, in a weird way, Austin's shot just gave them the edge towards getting amped up to play us. They felt that they were wronged... they've been sitting on that for 3 weeks, and we didn't come out from the tip ready for it.

The shots we missed at the start of the contest, and our ability to somehow "turn it on" in the 2nd half when we no longer had anything to lose point me towards the mental character of this team. A macro example is Mason's play over the last 3-4 games... where has he been? Was he sick? Did he break up with his girlfriend? Whatever it was, did it magically get better in the locker room at halftime?

I think this is an extremely talented bunch of Blue Devils. If Miles plays like he played tonight (and I do believe he is capable of playing that way every night) and Mason plays the we we know that he is capable of... that is a scary frontcourt. Austin is Austin--deadly, polished, lethal, and a winner. With that nucleus, plus Seth, Quinn, Tyler, and Ryan, I think we are more than capable of giving anyone a very difficult game. To me, this team just needs to bulk up mentally. The pieces are there. We lack in determination, heart, whatever you want to call it. We showed it in the 2nd half, but in the 1st, it did not match what Carolina brought to the table. It hurts to say this, but in all fairness, UNC probably deserved to win more than we did. I think we can have a great post-season if we want to.

Agreed.

To add, we also sat on that 3 the last few weeks. And according to Kendall Marshall's twitter feed, playing the replay of the shot before the game didn't help de-motivate UNC.

[throatybeard]

Well, the good news is Kellie Jolly Harper is still rather attractive.

Wait, sorry, wrong thread.

[duke09hms]

To paraphrase Herm Edwards "To win the game, you must make shots".

In the first half, we simply just missed a ton of wide open shots. Despite what Dickie V was saying...this was two evenly matched teams (both good at offense, both not so good at defense). They had John Henson hitting 17 foot jumpers...we had missed layups. Sigh.

The Dukies will come back from this.

Actually, Duke is great at offense and bad at defense. UNC is very good on offense and very good on defense. Our great offense could not bail out our bad defense tonight.

[gumbomoop]

I didn't record the game, but can someone tell me what the Duke guards were doing when Carolina shot the ball? If The Plums play H&Z even, how do the guards give up so many rebounds...that isn't about height...if Duke players are simply between the Carolina guards and the basket, Henson and Zeller are left to fight the plums for the ball...how many times did a guard from Carolina get a rebound from starting out on the three point line...were Duke's players heading to the offensive end immediately when the ball went up? standing watching? Seriously I'm not trying to be insulting, I really don't understand HOW they let the Carolina guards run freely to the basket to get rebounds...

I have posted a couple of posts on this issue. It was my strong impression during the game that our undersized guards failed to do something that undersized players must - must - do: block out. I have wondered whether - and do think that - Seth, Andre, Austin, and Quinn [Tyler is probably the exception here] do not instinctively block out.

Among my season-long interests has been something K said pretty early on about "attention to detail." I am so curious - obsessively so - about whether this detail has been given attention during practice. If our team is rebound-challenged [especially by, uh, certain teams], one would think this detail would in fact have been emphasized. If it has been, it hasn't taken. I did record the game and intend to review it. I will be surprised if our perimeter players blocked out much at all. UNC got several easy buckets as our perimeter guys watched ... UNC guys play basketball.

If this sounds snarky, so be it. I prefer to think of it as an example of K's oft-cited constructively critical truth telling.

[throatybeard]

Duke does not match up well with UNC. UNC is not deep and an ACC tourney could be tough for them. Still, I am surprised how well UNC has managed to play after losing Strickland. I think Roy deserves some credit for getting his guys to play down the stretch. Duke is a good but not a great team. At the beginning of the season if you had told me Duke would have finished one game behind UNC and beat them once- I think I would have taken it. The loss tonight says that Duke may not have what it takes to win the NCAA crown- but they have had a very good year. And if you do not think this game is important - every Duke NCAA championship team has beaten UNC in the last regular season game and every UNC NCAA championship team has beaten Duke in the last regular season game. This game is a measure of how well a team can handle the big moment at the end of the year. We will see if UNC can ride this win.

There's some post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning right there.

[duke09hms]

Congratulations to unc for playing up to expectations and capturing the season title. Sorry that a good effort by Miles resulted in such a sad ending on his Senior night. Good effort by the team in the second half to put the team in position for a comeback (again), even though it didn't work. I hate to see people say that they have no heart. I've never seen this team give up, no matter how big a hole they've dug themselves, they'll try to climb out of it.

What a night shooting by the tarheels. It seemed that they would never miss, no matter what type of shot. It never seems to work that way for Duke - yeah, they may go on a run, somebody might get really hot from 3, but I can't remember a game where the TEAM was scoring effortlessly. Maybe preseason or an early season cupcake? Often, it seems that they really have to work, work, work to get anything going, and this year has been especially hard.

On to the ACC and NCAA tourneys...

That's the magic of having a PG that can create. They have Kendall Marshall, we have Tyler Thornton/Seth Curry/Quinn Cook. Kendall is going to be one of the best all-time PGs in ACC history.

We need to work a LOT harder to score.

[Greg_Newton]

If The Plums play H&Z even, how do the guards give up so many rebounds...that isn't about height...if Duke players are simply between the Carolina guards and the basket, Henson and Zeller are left to fight the plums for the ball

I don't know, though... it's one thing for a player with a 4-6", 30+ pound disadvantage to plant himself between his man and the basket when his man is a stationary post player. It's another thing when his man is a wing who is running off screens, cutting around, and making you face guard him when he runs the baseline. You've got to have perfect awareness and timing with a little luck.

They can do better than they did tonight, I just think our scheme really asks our 6'2-6'4 guys to play beyond themselves against certain types of teams.

[devildeac]

That's the magic of having a PG that can create. They have Kendall Marshall, we have Tyler Thornton/Seth Curry/Quinn Cook. Kendall is going to be one of the best all-time PGs in ACC history.

We need to work a LOT harder to score.

And no Nolan to shut Marshall down like he did last year in the ACCT final.

[hurleyfor3]

Well, the good news is Kellie Jolly Harper is still rather attractive.

Wait, sorry, wrong thread.

What was going through Chris Collins' mind during the end-of-the-first-half interview:

Don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts something about missing lots of 3s and playing lousy defense don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts whew thank god that's over.

[duke09hms]

Obviously, we had some important guests in the house tonight.

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

Optimistically, I hope they would think - "wow I could easily get a lot of PT on this roster."

[Kfanarmy]

But Duke is certainly good enough to get to a Final Four- a task that can be made much easier when the supposed best teams start to fall. It is all about match-ups and team health from here on out. I'd just as soon see Duke beat the "best teams." Thinking that way seems a bit unsportsmanlike or something.

[FerryFor50]

I'd just as soon see Duke beat the "best teams." Thinking that way seems a bit unsportsmanlike or something.

Like Kansas, UNC and Michigan St?

Yea, been there, done that.

This team is capable of beating pretty much any team, provided they show up.

[gumbomoop]

I don't know, though... it's one thing for a player with a 4-6", 30+ pound disadvantage to plant himself between his man and the basket when his man is a stationary post player. It's another thing when his man is a wing who is running off screens, cutting around, and making you face guard him when he runs the baseline. You've got to have perfect awareness and timing with a little luck.

They can do better than they did tonight, I just think our scheme really asks our 6'2-6'4 guys to play beyond themselves against certain types of teams.

As several of my posts in this thread will attest, I have a different point of view. I concede that you make a plausible argument, and realize it's related to the issue of the absence of that classic Duke 6'6" wing defender.

I'm inclined to emphasize your acknowledgement that "They can do better than they did tonight." My view is that we've not seen much of a fair test of your point about "playing beyond themselves," for it's not clear to me that our guys have been outmuscled so much as outhustled. I don't like saying this; it's not a good thing to say about one's guys. It would be better if you're right.

But I am yet unwilling to concede that it takes "perfect awareness" to block out. I think it takes awareness.

[weezie]

What was going through Chris Collins' mind during the end-of-the-first-half interview:


He might have been even more transfixed by the spray on pants and 6" metal spike heels.
Yikes.

[MCFinARL]

In short, no.

You can't force things that aren't there.....what looks like "open" to viewers may not be open for the players on the court. I think more than anything, K trusts the players on the court to make the best decisions. If tyler or austin or whoever else can't get it to dawkins effectivley, then forcing it is probably only going to do more harm than good.

Okay--I will agree you can't force things that aren't there, and I will grant you that, in his limited time on the court, there were not a lot of times when Andre seemed to be wide open and his teammates didn't pass to him. But that only answers half of my question. I didn't see the team run any plays to get Andre open, which they might have done had the coaches suggested it. And since the other outside shooters clearly didn't have it tonight, even when they were wide open (arguably with the exception of Tyler, who did hit half of his 3-point attempts), and they weren't playing spectacular defense that would be sacrificed to put Andre in, one possible coaching choice might have been to give Andre a few more minutes and run a couple of plays for him. If he doesn't hit, fine, take him back out. But what did they have to lose at that point?

I'm not a basketball coach, and obviously I have no credentials to question Coach K (and even if I thought I did I wouldn't try it on DBR, where I would be dissed and dismissed immediately). He has his reasons for playing the people he plays, I'm sure. I just wish sometimes that I understood better what they were.

[throatybeard]

What was going through Chris Collins' mind during the end-of-the-first-half interview:

Don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts something about missing lots of 3s and playing lousy defense don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts whew thank god that's over.

Post of the millennium.

It's an occupational hazard. Except also there's her face to contend with.

I'm sorry we didn't give her a better game.

[uh_no]

Okay--I will agree you can't force things that aren't there, and I will grant you that, in his limited time on the court, there were not a lot of times when Andre seemed to be wide open and his teammates didn't pass to him. But that only answers half of my question. I didn't see the team run any plays to get Andre open, which they might have done had the coaches suggested it. And since the other outside shooters clearly didn't have it tonight, even when they were wide open (arguably with the exception of Tyler, who did hit half of his 3-point attempts), and they weren't playing spectacular defense that would be sacrificed to put Andre in, one possible coaching choice might have been to give Andre a few more minutes and run a couple of plays for him. If he doesn't hit, fine, take him back out. But what did they have to lose at that point?


10 minutes into the game we had 10 points

we scored 60 points in the last 30 minutes. That's an 80 point game and is a phenomenal offensive output against North carolina. There was so much going wrong for us at that point, I think running specific plays for andre was low down on the list of things to cover during that time. We have a bunch of good shooters. I would imagine what gets covered is more general stuff....we need to get our shooters open by doing X, we need to work through the post by doing Y, and much less "we need to run A play for B person"

So once we did get going on offense about 10 minute in, there was no real reason to change what we were doing....especially when we were busy giving up 88 points. I would imagine most of the focus moved to, how do we slow these guys down, and how do we get more boards.....or more generally...how the heck are we gonna win this game


TLDNR: by the time we could have started to work on it, the offense had started flowing.

[Edouble]

Post of the millennium.

It's an occupational hazard. Except also there's her face to contend with.

I'm sorry we didn't give her a better game.

Y'all really think she's that hot? Come to Atlanta sometime.

[gwlaw99]

My only consolation is that UNC fans must have been going nuts when we cut it to less than 10.

[Ian]

We never did cut it to less than 10, Curry had a chance, and Austin Rivers had a chance at the FT line, both times we came away empty.

[uh_no]

My only consolation is that UNC fans must have been going nuts when we cut it to less than 10.

we never got closer than 11.

[MCFinARL]

I kind of agree and kind of don't. Really, K does this pretty much all the frikin' time! Yea, Duke has talent that other teams would be very envious of. But every single year K finds some way to compensate for the numerous existing weaknesses with good degree of success. We've seen college teams at the same level of this years' Duke team crumble for stretches of the season due to lack of athleticism, poor defensive positioning, lack of true pg, etc... Yet this team always managed to pick itself up after being down, and it wasn't down very much. Heck, even the 2007 team made the tournament and I think it is always discounted what an achievement that was. You will never see a Duke version of 2010 UNC on K's watch. That is a tribute to K's work.

? Not dissing Coach K, who is obviously a fine coach, but the 2007 roster had 8 McDonald's All-Americans on it. Granted that team struggled at times, but I'm not sure why you see it as a tremendous accomplishment to make the NCAA tournament with those tools (whether or not Roy Williams could do it with his 2010 roster isn't really germane).

[dukebsbll14]

we never got closer than 11.

Many missed opportunities. I thought we could have pulled it off...but we didn't.

Sigh. Next play.

[throatybeard]

Y'all really think she's that hot? Come to Atlanta sometime.

Well let's see. I grew up in Georgia.

Let me make clear that my EA obsession is a schtick. On the record, I trumpet her comeliness. Off the record, I tell my wife, damn, that girl has a big nose and a New England accent and roots showing...It's cool to be brunette, almost everyone over 30 is. But EA ain't foolin no one with that dye job. EA ain't "EA" is one way to say it.

And yet, she's rather compelling.

Women are women. They are to be appreciated. They're fantastic. I am sort of a male lesbian.

But to answer your question, no, I think by some scientific mean of measuring people's features and comparing them to .7 ratios, no, EA is not that hot. The paradox is that she's way hotter than that.

My wife is from Georgia. Hmm. Check Facebook. She's high quality.

[throatybeard]

we never got closer than 11.

Anybody feel like that 3 by Curry goes down to cut it to 8, we're in a whole nother situation?

[MCFinARL]

??? Barnes almost shot UNC out of the game. Would have, if Duke hadn't been struggling so much offensively.

??? Barnes was 6-14--a better shooting percentage than anyone on Duke tonight except for Miles and Mason. I would have been happy to see Seth or Ryan "shoot Duke out of the game" with that percentage tonight.

[uh_no]

Many missed opportunities. I thought we could have pulled it off...but we didn't.

Sigh. Next play.

Yup.

I'm having trouble convincing myself that the season isn't over yet......a win in the first round of the ACCs will change that pretty quickly ;)

[Devilsfan]

Who was advising K? Down 18-5 and we don't take a TO? Decided to run with them. How the best coach on the planet gets out coached by one of the poorest in game coaches baffles me.

[jipops]

Anybody feel like that 3 by Curry goes down to cut it to 8, we're in a whole nother situation?

Yep, comeback bid ended with that miss. And yes, heels and Roy go in full panic mode if that shot goes down.

[Edouble]

Well let's see. I grew up in Georgia.

Let me make clear that my EA obsession is a schtick. On the record, I trumpet her comeliness. Off the record, I tell my wife, damn, that girl has a big nose and a New England accent and roots showing...It's cool to be brunette, almost everyone over 30 is. But EA ain't foolin no one with that dye job. EA ain't "EA" is one way to say it.

And yet, she's rather compelling.

Women are women. They are to be appreciated. They're fantastic. I am sort of a male lesbian.

But to answer your question, no, I think by some scientific mean of measuring people's features and comparing them to .7 ratios, no, EA is not that hot. The paradox is that she's way hotter than that.

My wife is from Georgia. Hmm. Check Facebook. She's high quality.

Atlanta is not Georgia. Not to hijack the thread. That's like saying Washington DC is representative of Virginia or Maryland. We exist in a little cocoon. We are fiercely proud that we stay inside 285. I wouldn't live anywhere else in the Bible belt except for right here in the ATL.

I understand your thing about Erin Andrews, actually. I used to be that way with Jennifer Love Hewitt, a long time ago when I was at Duke. I know she's not Angelina, or ScarJo, but something about her unique make up (composition, I mean, not Loreal) just got to me.

I checked FB. Yes, she is high quality. But apparently 2010 wasn't a big photography year for you, as there is one picture and it's a cartoon.

The talk of EA's breasts got me thinking about my significant other as well, as I believe my second half's offerings are... better. If EA has a high level of attractiveness, and that seems to be the consensus, it is her Je ne sais quoi, not her chest or textbook good looks.

And yes, if Seth's 3 had gone down, the place would have exploded. We really might have put them away. I wonder how detrimental another loss in such fashion would have been to UNC. Austin's shot was like a smack in the face. If we had come back tonight, it would be like a knee to the groin.

Hearing our team's post-game comments makes me believe, though, that this is one of those situations where a loss can act as a more powerful impetus than another come from behind win. Maybe we need to feel vulnerable against a really good team to get smacked in the face a little ourselves. Ohio State was a long time ago.

[Kedsy]

I was quite proud of the way we fought back to cut the lead from 26 to 11 and within a whisker of having it down to 8.


i'm tired of having to shoot 3s to offset having weak athletic ability on the glass and on defense. this has been the pattern for upwards of 5 years now. get some athletes coach k because every basket we have to score requires 10x the effort that other teams need because we can't get layups and we can't get short jumpers.

I just think the above quote is kind of funny.


there is a reason why carolina has dominated us for 79 minutes this year.

Well, I don't think there is a reason for that, because it didn't happen. We controlled the first half and the last two minutes of the first game, and we were the better team for much of the second half tonight. Really they dominated us for 20 first half minutes tonight and the other 60 were pretty even.


And if you do not think this game is important - every Duke NCAA championship team has beaten UNC in the last regular season game and every UNC NCAA championship team has beaten Duke in the last regular season game. This game is a measure of how well a team can handle the big moment at the end of the year.

Yeah, except Duke has had three teams lose that last regular season game and still make the NCAA tournament final, so I'd say your tidbit is really the function of (a) teams that win the national championship are likely to be better than their rival and thus should have won in the last regular season game; and (b) too small a sample size to draw any legitimate conclusions.


I absolutely agree that our guards need to block out better, but how much of the out rebounding by the guards/small forward is due to our lack of height/a prototypical small forward?

Barnes only had 4 rebounds, so I'd say probably not very much.


Anybody feel like that 3 by Curry goes down to cut it to 8, we're in a whole nother situation?

Absolutely. Tar Heel nation was about to go into an apoplectic fit.

[-bdbd]

Anybody feel like that 3 by Curry goes down to cut it to 8, we're in a whole nother situation?

Absolutely. Even the ESPN guys were talking up the milestone of getting it under ten from the start of the second half. That three goes down, or we make those free-throws, and who knows what that does to NC's confidence. Momentum is a fickle thing. But I was as angry as at any point during the game when we bumped against 11 and missed opportunities to get it to single digits. I really felt when NC made a couple then, well, "there goes our chance."

But give the guys credit for showing heart and fighting back. I don't think NC ever felt comfortable until the last 2-3 minutes.

Let's hope we get another shot at them in Atlanta. Historically (at least in the last 12 yrs) they underperform come ACC tournament time.

Next play. This team is still capable of of accomplishing all of its main pre-season goals for the year, including a (very) deep run in the NCAAT.

[jipops]

? Not dissing Coach K, who is obviously a fine coach, but the 2007 roster had 8 McDonald's All-Americans on it. Granted that team struggled at times, but I'm not sure why you see it as a tremendous accomplishment to make the NCAA tournament with those tools (whether or not Roy Williams could do it with his 2010 roster isn't really germane).

Actually there were 5. One was a junior, the others freshmen and sophs. These guys were good players but weren't exactly the same type of McD's that a program like Kentucky brings in. Our pf was 6-6 210lbs. Our best perimeter threat was Greg Paulus (who was far better from outside his junior year). With freshman Zoubek battling injuries, McRoberts was the only real option underneath. Gerald Henderson had a very limited role at the time. DeMarcus Nelson was our best overall player, but not a big threat from outside. There was no room for error for that team and there were matchup disadvantages almost every night. K did some serious coaching that season. It was also one of the youngest Duke rosters ever. I would venture to say that a vast majority of coaches would not have gotten that team into the ncaat. We have seen greater teams fail getting there not including UNC. And that is why I'm calling it a tremendous accomplishment.

I'm off topic, sorry. What this relates to is it typifies what K can use as strengths to overcome weaknesses. Obviously he isn't the only coach to do this, but he is very, very consistent about it. For this team to even be in the conversation of a number 1 seed after losing its two best players (2 All-American caliber players) from the season before and replacing them with a freshman is pretty amazing.

[stixof96]

Anybody feel like that 3 by Curry goes down to cut it to 8, we're in a whole nother situation?

Who knows.......this duke team can go stone cold without warning........the great teams from duke scored a certain number of points , and if necessary they WILLED points in the basket......this team lacks that.....i see spatterings of it here and there.......but, great teams do it when the need arises.......collins was right when they interviewed him at the half.......this team has got to find heart from somewhere........

[Vincetaylor]

The bottom line is that UNC's starting five is much more talented than Duke's. Nothing more really needs to be said. They have 3 or 4 guys who will be drafted ahead of any Duke player. Coach K is the best in the country at getting the most out of his teams and that is honestly the only reason we had a chance this game and beat them the first time.

[heyman25]

The bottom line is that UNC's starting five is much more talented than Duke's. Nothing more really needs to be said. They have 3 or 4 guys who will be drafted ahead of any Duke player. Coach K is the best in the country at getting the most out of his teams and that is honestly the only reason we had a chance this game and beat them the first time.

Getting one star a year does not make a talented team. At the moment Sulaimon is our only prospect. Our coaching staff needs to step it up in recruiting.I for one would like Coach K get to 5 national championships. In order to make that happen it takes talent.If everything goes perfect for this squad it could happen. However UNC, Kentucky, and Syracuse have better chances than Duke because they have more talent. You can discuss the dishonesty of UCONN and UK til our heads turn Duke Blue, but this staff needs to close on Jabari Parker,Julius Randle, Tyus Jones, perhaps Anthony Barber. We have had a lot of strikeouts in the last few years.

[guybrush]

http://www.dailybasket.it/ncaa/acc-north-carolina-straccia-duke-e-vince-il-titolo-della-regular-season/

[mcdukie]

The bottom line is that UNC's starting five is much more talented than Duke's. Nothing more really needs to be said. They have 3 or 4 guys who will be drafted ahead of any Duke player. Coach K is the best in the country at getting the most out of his teams and that is honestly the only reason we had a chance this game and beat them the first time.

Throw everything else out the window, this is the bottom line. Their talent is superior to ours. They have 4 or 5 definite pros and are bringing in more next year. Our second half play shows we can play with them but we had to work so hard to get good looks compared to the shots they were taking.

[devildeac]

Interesting quote from Miles from Jim Sumner's article on the Home Page:

Miles Plumlee sees his college career coming to an end and he wants to see an attitude adjustment. “When we show up, I believe this team is as good as anyone in the country. We’re a younger team and throughout the year, we’ve been a little immature. We always want to see how little we can do to win. We need to fight like we did at times tonight for the rest of the season.”

The bolded part of his quote is somewhat worrisome/bothersome. What do you do about that if you're the staff? What do you do about that if you're the players? What do the captains do about that? Is it a practice issue? Is it a game/performance issue?

[Buckeye Devil]

Well let's see. I grew up in Georgia.

Let me make clear that my EA obsession is a schtick. On the record, I trumpet her comeliness. Off the record, I tell my wife, damn, that girl has a big nose and a New England accent and roots showing...It's cool to be brunette, almost everyone over 30 is. But EA ain't foolin no one with that dye job. EA ain't "EA" is one way to say it.

And yet, she's rather compelling.

Women are women. They are to be appreciated. They're fantastic. I am sort of a male lesbian.

But to answer your question, no, I think by some scientific mean of measuring people's features and comparing them to .7 ratios, no, EA is not that hot. The paradox is that she's way hotter than that.

My wife is from Georgia. Hmm. Check Facebook. She's high quality.

I got dissed after the first UNC game after mentioning EA's roots. I was faulted for looking at her roots instead of other comely parts. Glad to see it bothers someone else too. Blond or brunette, she is still hot and puts to shame anything I ever dated.

[dukelifer]

Yeah, except Duke has had three teams lose that last regular season game and still make the NCAA tournament final, so I'd say your tidbit is really the function of (a) teams that win the national championship are likely to be better than their rival and thus should have won in the last regular season game; and (b) too small a sample size to draw any legitimate conclusions.



Better than their rival is perhaps a bit too strong. Usually the teams are pretty close to each other- at least in terms of rankings and several of these games have been close- like 2005. In 2001, Duke was coming off the loss of Boozer and rallied as a team and beat UNC at UNC and then UNC when spiraled out of control with the Forte-poisoned locker-room. In some cases, the winner was simply better- like in 2009 and 2010. Duke and UNC have been two of the most successful teams in college bball and this last rivalry game can give a team confidence. 2001 is the best example and one might argue that UNC's last second win in 2005 was another. As you and others have pointed out- there is no causality here- and may simply reflect how close the rivalry has been - but the winner can get a real boost from winning this last game. Sports is a lot more than just stats. Team confidence can turn on a dime.

[Matches]

I got dissed after the first UNC game after mentioning EA's roots. I was faulted for looking at her roots instead of other comely parts. Glad to see it bothers someone else too. Blond or brunette, she is still hot and puts to shame anything I ever dated.

So we let down Erin Andrews, AND Brooklyn Decker was trash-talking us on Twitter. Not our night with gorgeous women, it seems.

[MCFinARL]

Actually there were 5. One was a junior, the others freshmen and sophs. These guys were good players but weren't exactly the same type of McD's that a program like Kentucky brings in. Our pf was 6-6 210lbs. Our best perimeter threat was Greg Paulus (who was far better from outside his junior year). With freshman Zoubek battling injuries, McRoberts was the only real option underneath. Gerald Henderson had a very limited role at the time. DeMarcus Nelson was our best overall player, but not a big threat from outside. There was no room for error for that team and there were matchup disadvantages almost every night. K did some serious coaching that season. It was also one of the youngest Duke rosters ever. I would venture to say that a vast majority of coaches would not have gotten that team into the ncaat. We have seen greater teams fail getting there not including UNC. And that is why I'm calling it a tremendous accomplishment.

I'm off topic, sorry. What this relates to is it typifies what K can use as strengths to overcome weaknesses. Obviously he isn't the only coach to do this, but he is very, very consistent about it. For this team to even be in the conversation of a number 1 seed after losing its two best players (2 All-American caliber players) from the season before and replacing them with a freshman is pretty amazing.

My bad--it was late, I looked up the roster from 2007-08 by accident instead of 2006-07, and I was too tired to notice my error. And I see your points about having to fit together some limited pieces, and about how a lot of the talent on the team was young. Really, the whole roster was young, even by comparison to this year (where the issue is not so much absolute youth as relative inexperience in being leaders rather than role players). I think I still see 6 McD's on the 2007 team, though--Nelson, Paulus, McRoberts, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas.

Maybe I am spoiled and just expect that every Duke team will make the NCAA as a sort of baseline goal. And that's undoubtedly not fair. If I tend to think that, say, winning the championship with the 2010 roster was a more impressive accomplishment than getting to the tournament with the 2007 roster, that certainly doesn't mean both weren't excellent coaching jobs. And I completely agree with the statement I bolded in your post--for this particular team to have gotten to the place it has in the seeding discussion is really impressive (plus, although it's true one of them didn't play much, Duke actually lost its three best players from last year's team, not two). I'm not unwilling to question some of Coach K's little decisions here and there (probably unwisely, out of ignorance rather than wisdom), but I certainly don't question his overall skill in putting together strong, competitive teams out of a wide variety of pieces.

[grossbus]

it astounds me that we apparently cannot defend marshall. he goes by everyone we put on him.

[ChicagoHeel]

Congrats to Miles. He went out in an impressive manner. Didn't like to see him choking up on the bench at the end, but I was impressed how he fought the whole way. I also have to give a lot of credit to K's post-game press conference. I think most rational UNC fans don't like, but respect Coach K, and his highly gracious press conference is part of the reason we can't help but respect him.

As for the game itself, we've been waiting all year for our team to find another gear and last night they did. It was just an outstanding performance at both ends of the floor. I really liked the way our bigs hedged out and made things tougher on your guards. Bullock's O and D was another key for the game. Overall, our offensive efficiency put a lot of pressure on your offense to keep up, which I think is part of the reason you shot poorly. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. I just hope we can maintain our focus and edge going forward; that we can continue to play angry because it certainly seemed to help a lot in this game.

I don't think we learned anything new about Duke. Your D is just not that good, which means you can lose to any talented team. We scored 40 in the second half when we were clearly playing stall ball. As others have pointed out, you can also beat anyone too. It will be very hard to predict how you guys will do in each game from the sweet sixteen forward- I can imagine a blowout in either direction.

[shereec]

Obviously, we had some important guests in the house tonight.

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

Hopefully they noted that the crowd was loud and with the team until the bitter end. Any games they may have attended in CH sounded like a crowd at a tennis match...

[HateCarolina]

Y'all really think she's that hot? Come to Atlanta sometime.

EA is indeed hot, the fact that she's a court side sports announcer/reporter has a lot to do with it too. That being said I live in Atlanta (ITP too) and she would still turn heads on Peachtree, in Lenox/Phipps, or any other locale you would expect the ATL hotness.

[HateCarolina]

Hopefully they noted that the crowd was loud and with the team until the bitter end. Any games they may have attended in CH sounded like a crowd at a tennis match...

Very well said. Awesome!!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Excellent game prep/ game management from Roy Williams. One of the best coaches in the country and this game showed it. He builds teams to have balance, and last night trouble for Duke came from everywhere on the floor.

Defense. UNC defended with focus, something that was not always the case this season. A really good defensive team when they committ to it.

Marshall could not be contained off the dribble, made good decisions and finished when he needed to. A key to the game for sure.

Anyone still doubt Zeller as ACC POY?

Henson is the latest testament to how big men improve during their stay at UNC. Should he decide to stay next season, he'll lead NPOY preseason talk.

Duke played hard, no-one should question their effort. It was just a night where some weakness was exposed, mainly rebounding, but also at the 3 spot.

UNC forced Duke to try and beat them from inside the 3pt line, and Duke came up just 18 pts short in this one.

[oldnavy]

Congrats to Miles. He went out in an impressive manner. Didn't like to see him choking up on the bench at the end, but I was impressed how he fought the whole way. I also have to give a lot of credit to K's post-game press conference. I think most rational UNC fans don't like, but respect Coach K, and his highly gracious press conference is part of the reason we can't help but respect him.

As for the game itself, we've been waiting all year for our team to find another gear and last night they did. It was just an outstanding performance at both ends of the floor. I really liked the way our bigs hedged out and made things tougher on your guards. Bullock's O and D was another key for the game. Overall, our offensive efficiency put a lot of pressure on your offense to keep up, which I think is part of the reason you shot poorly. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. I just hope we can maintain our focus and edge going forward; that we can continue to play angry because it certainly seemed to help a lot in this game.

I don't think we learned anything new about Duke. Your D is just not that good, which means you can lose to any talented team. We scored 40 in the second half when we were clearly playing stall ball. As others have pointed out, you can also beat anyone too. It will be very hard to predict how you guys will do in each game from the sweet sixteen forward- I can imagine a blowout in either direction.

At one point in the first half I almost started laughing. It might have been the point where we missed 15 straight shots. My point is it was just one of those nights. UNC was HOT and by that I mean shots that really should not go in were going in (straight ahead bank shots from13 feet, Henson running 12 foot side armed hook shot). Nothing against UNC, it happens and has happened to us in the past. At the same time shots for us that should go in were rimming out all over the place (layups, open 3's, reverse layups, etc...). Again, it happens and has happened to UNC at times as well.

BUT when the two events converge at the same time.... well it becomes surreal and you can either laugh or cry. I chose to laugh...
UNC is a better team than Duke. I hurts me to say that, but they are. They deserved to win last night, and I congratulate their team and fan base on a well fought game and victory.

It doesn't change my mind about Roy or UNC in general (I think UNC is about 80% of what they should be), but we should give credit where credit is due.

If we play UNC again, we will have to be A LOT more aggressive on the boards (the rebounding in the first half to me was as much a reason we lost as the shots not going in) and in driving to the basket.

Congrats to Chicagoheel and Wheat on a big game and the regular season title... you earned it.

[cspan37421]

Interesting quote from Miles from Jim Sumner's article on the Home Page:

Miles Plumlee sees his college career coming to an end and he wants to see an attitude adjustment. “When we show up, I believe this team is as good as anyone in the country. We’re a younger team and throughout the year, we’ve been a little immature. We always want to see how little we can do to win. We need to fight like we did at times tonight for the rest of the season.”

The bolded part of his quote is somewhat worrisome/bothersome. What do you do about that if you're the staff? What do you do about that if you're the players? What do the captains do about that? Is it a practice issue? Is it a game/performance issue?

If that quote is accurate, it's utterly damning, yet would explain a great deal of what we've seen this season in both wins and losses. I cannot imagine that that represents the kind of attitude that our coaches want for ANYONE on our team. I would be tearing my hair out. After 30+ games, if that's still the prevailing attitude, it's hard to honestly have high expectations - only high hopes. And the first hope would be that that attitude changes. It seems like it's getting late for that.

I saw some quote this week - maybe in a sports magazine, some player's dad told them, "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard." A bit of a platitude, but sometimes true.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Congrats to Chicagoheel and Wheat on a big game and the regular season title... you earned it.

Thanks for the kind thought, but I'm under no illusion that my interest in the teams play has anything to do with anything. All credit goes to the coaches and players, good or bad:)

[oldnavy]

Thanks for the kind thought, but I'm under no illusion that my interest in the teams play has anything to do with anything. All credit goes to the coaches and players, good or bad:)

Well I know YOU didn't earn it, but I was lumping you in with the team and fanbase. I refer to Duke all the time as "we" which I understand some people find silly, but when you put as much emotional capital as I have into a team for 45 years I do feel like I am part of that team.

So in this case when I say you deserve it, I mean the UNC team and fanbase as a whole.

Funny you would mention coaches, because I think that in this game Roy did a fine job managing the game, which is rare for me. Of course like Roy himself has said, when the shots are dropping it makes him look like a genius.

Enjoy the win, and I hope you lose your next two games!! ;)

[gumbomoop]

I don't think we learned anything new about Duke. Your D is just not that good, which means you can lose to any talented team.... As others have pointed out, you can also beat anyone too.

This parallels a comment K made during an interview Friday, shown late Fri eve on a special pregame GameDay segment. K said: "Carolina can beat teams easier than we can beat teams. But we can beat teams." Another way of saying UNC is better than Duke, and Duke is good.

Although I wouldn't say I learned anything totally new, my concern that Duke's porous D is made more porous by ball-watching was heightened.

Partly because this year's Duke team had to rely on 4 or 5 guys to "step up" and "replace" Nolan, Kyle, and Kyrie, I have wondered - repeatedly in several threads - exactly what "attention to detail" K referred to earlier in the season. What details, and how much attention? What I learned last evening was that either the important detail of blocking out by our perimeter players - for whom crashing the boards seems unlikely to be the smartest strategy, so stopping opposing perimeters from board-crashing seems wiser - has been given little attention, or that our perimeter guys [with probable exception of Tyler] have not been paying attention to that detail.

Congrats to ChicagoHeel and Wheat for UNC's strong performance. I'm inclined to think that one of the things that makes Heels such a good team is that they have a number of players whose instincts are more attuned to attention to detail. Last eve, for example, like noticing that they weren't being blocked out. Maybe that was merely a one-off, nothing more than a coincidence, and just one of 5 or 6 things that went right for the Heels and wrong for the Devils.

If they play next Sunday, I'll be thinking about lots of little details. Every play counts. Carolina certainly played more plays than did Duke last eve.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Enjoy the win, and I hope you lose your next two games!! ;)

Just tweaking ya:) I feel pretty good this am, as you know from feeling it in game one...

Your quote above is helping to bring me back to the norm...there is always the next one, for both sides.

[jipops]

Excellent game prep/ game management from Roy Williams. One of the best coaches in the country and this game showed it. He builds teams to have balance, and last night trouble for Duke came from everywhere on the floor.


This one is rather amusing and I see where you're going here. Isn't having that balance more of a luxury than an actual skill? Who else can say they have that kind of front court and that kind of point guard? Do you honestly think if another team had it the coach wouldn't use it? Roy has done an excellent job managing this team overall this season, I mean his team did finish first in the conference. But I hardly see how this result would be different than many other coaches that had those kinds of resources in personnel. He's at UNC, he's getting balanced talent every year. Put him through a pg drought or a big man drought in recruiting and I wonder what the result would be.

I think a good argument is being made for Roy to look at shortening his rotation. Two years in a row the heels have actually improved when they lost a guy for the rest of the season. Lucky for them, neither time was it one of the major offensive players. Not saying it is the reason for improvement, but I think an argument could be made for it.

[Billy Dat]

You knew after the first game that the Heels were dying for revenge. As it turned out, they kept their emotions in check and played amazing ball, especially in that first half. We had good looks, couldn't knock them down, the hole was too deep, etc. I knew the comeback was going to be tough when Henson started knocking down 15 footers. I also wasn't pleased to see McAdoo, untouched, swoop in for a rim rattling dunk follow on an offensive rebound.

I, too, was glad to see us fight back so strong. If that Curry 3 goes down, I agree that the Heels would have begun to panic. It was a little similar to the Black Pidgeon's 3 that went halfwway down as they were mounting a comeback in the ACC Tourny title last year.

Speaking of the Black Pidgeon, you can tell that he, more than any of the Heels, likes to try and stick it to us, and I cite as an example the "Eff You" 3 he took at the end of the game when they should have been bleeding the clock down, the one where it seemed like the refs called a foul on Curry but it was an inadvertant whistle. I can't wait for that kid to go to the NBA where he can call reporters and ask if they think he's going to make the All Rookie team.
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811

Let's hope we can both win a couple of games and play again next Sunday. The better big time games we play, the better off we'll be for the big show. This kind of feels like 2001 with Maryland...we make the epic comeback to steal game 1 on the road, get handled in Game 2, then have an epic ACC semi. Granted, we were a title favorite and Boozer broke his foot and we went on to win it all...but I think if we met again next week we'd have a better showing.

Great regular season for the team, though. It wasn't typical, but they really played great and anything can happen if we hit 3s. Half of the equation of living and dying by the 3 is living. As Al Green sang, "Since we've to be here....Let's live"

[HDB]

Excellent game prep/ game management from Roy Williams. One of the best coaches in the country and this game showed it. He builds teams to have balance, and last night trouble for Duke came from everywhere on the floor.

Defense. UNC defended with focus, something that was not always the case this season. A really good defensive team when they committ to it.

Marshall could not be contained off the dribble, made good decisions and finished when he needed to. A key to the game for sure.

Anyone still doubt Zeller as ACC POY?

Henson is the latest testament to how big men improve during their stay at UNC. Should he decide to stay next season, he'll lead NPOY preseason talk.

Duke played hard, no-one should question their effort. It was just a night where some weakness was exposed, mainly rebounding, but also at the 3 spot.

UNC forced Duke to try and beat them from inside the 3pt line, and Duke came up just 18 pts short in this one.

Wasn't Henson a top 5 recruit? He's a fine ball player but think his natural ability has more to do with his success than how he may have been developed by the UNC brain trust.

[jipops]

Henson is the latest testament to how big men improve during their stay at UNC. Should he decide to stay next season, he'll lead NPOY preseason talk.



How is Deon Thompson doing? Yea, Henson got a lot better last year after Roy switched him away from small forward back to the position he played in high school that made him a top 5 recruit. Genius. Pure Genius. And all those reps practicing that 12 footer - those are only done by players who play at UNC.

[duke09hms]

This one is rather amusing and I see where you're going here. Isn't having that balance more of a luxury than an actual skill? Who else can say they have that kind of front court and that kind of point guard? Do you honestly think if another team had it the coach wouldn't use it? Roy has done an excellent job managing this team overall this season, I mean his team did finish first in the conference. But I hardly see how this result would be different than many other coaches that had those kinds of resources in personnel. He's at UNC, he's getting balanced talent every year. Put him through a pg drought or a big man drought in recruiting and I wonder what the result would be.

I think a good argument is being made for Roy to look at shortening his rotation. Two years in a row the heels have actually improved when they lost a guy for the rest of the season. Lucky for them, neither time was it one of the major offensive players. Not saying it is the reason for improvement, but I think an argument could be made for it.

Well coaches should also get credit for building their team so that it IS balanced and all-around effective at all 5 spots.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wasn't Henson a top 5 recruit? He's a fine ball player but think his natural ability has more to do with his success than how he may have been developed by the UNC brain trust.

The difference in his game now from the time when he was a top five recruit can be measured in light years.

He's obviously got natural ability, and he's worked hard, (look at his body compared to when he came in), but it's clear he's been coached up to develope his game, in a system that displays his skills.

Just how it is...

[Class of '94]

If this has already been answered before I apologize, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on cold shooting performances of Seth Curry and Ryan Kelly in last night's game. Was it a case of being too "hyped" for the game for Seth or do you think he's playing with an undisclosed injury he might have suffered from the Wake game? Seth was short on a lot of floaters and close to basket shots that he normally makes. And what is up with the up and down nature of Ryan and Dre? Although to be fair, Ryan has played well imo for more games than not but it seems like his poor play stands out more and magnified when he's not playing well in big games like the OSU and last night's game.

[HDB]

The difference in his game now from the time when he was a top five recruit can be measured in light years.

He's obviously got natural ability, and he's worked hard, (look at his body compared to when he came in), but it's clear he's been coached up to develope his game, in a system that displays his skills.

Just how it is...

Wheat: I fully expect to see the same post from you in 2 years when UNC's development of top 10 recruit mcadoo has time to take hold. There is no substitute for great talent and UNC's roster is dripping with it. Roy certainly can recruit.

[Saratoga2]

I prefer to provide my thoughts prior to reading the many inputs in this thread and then go back and read the opinions of many contributors who I respect.

Duke is still having a relatively good season, at 26 and 5. Yes, they were thumped last night at home on senior night. You can look at the 88 points given up for the main issue, which was defense.

1. Among the defensive problems were the 2nd and third chance points given up. There were many and easily over 12.
We haven't been good at blocking players out with our bigs, and also we are very small at guard and small forward and haven't been able to block out others crashing the boards.

2. We were getting beaten inside with ball penetration and passes to their bigs, who were setting up inside, close to the basket.

3. Their bigs beat ours down the court on a few ocassions leading to easy points.

UNC shouldn't get smug, as their defense was not all that good either. We scored 70 and were missing a lot of open shots and also missing free throws. Clearly we could have easily scored in the 80's with a reasonably good shooting night. I think Ryan missed all his outside shots. Was it 7? We also missed free throws numerous times.


That said, it is apparent that Andre is in the dog house. He got a chance to take only one shot and then was back on the pine. We needed someone to provide a threat from the outside so having him sit, regardless of one mistake on defense, was a possible significant loss in our offensive punch.

Playing a 6' guard, a 6'1" guard and a 6'4" guard against 6'4", 6'7" and 6'8" players left us at a disadvantage that they were able to exploit.

The reluctance to play our small forwards much or at all this season has left us with no alternative when it comes to match ups. When Andre is also on the bench, we are just very vulnerable, especiallty to large and talented teams.

I did think Miles had a good offensive game and Mason also showed some signs of coming to life offensively. Ryan doesn't seem to match up well against UNC for some reason. Maybe his athleticism is the issue. Let us hope we can play solid games in the ACC tournament, with the bigs showing up as well as they did against UNC.

[Papa John]

The difference in his game now from the time when he was a top five recruit can be measured in light years.

He's obviously got natural ability, and he's worked hard, (look at his body compared to when he came in), but it's clear he's been coached up to develope his game, in a system that displays his skills.

Just how it is...

Henson's a punk, but he definitely has game and freakish athleticism for his size. Zeller is, in my opinion, ACC POY... He has been as consistently productive as a Swiss timepiece this year. Even as a Duke fan, I love the kid's game, and the work ethic he has demonstrated to get to where he is.

We got schooled last night... But, next play... Now we play for hardware... Let's get it on!

[Troublemaker]

It IS a little bit nauseating to see Roy trumpeting his team's "fight" for bouncing back from the Duke and FSU losses. 4 lottery picks. Shut up.

Still, much credit to them for that first half. With the way we played, we needed UNC to help out and be only 80% efficient in taking advantage of their opportunities so we could escape to halftime with only a 14-pt deficit or so. If the lead were 14, that game's a toss-up. But they took advantage of every opportunity it seemed like, and the lead was 24. Game over.

Great to see Miles playing so well on Senior Night.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

How is Deon Thompson doing? Yea, Henson got a lot better last year after Roy switched him away from small forward back to the position he played in high school that made him a top 5 recruit. Genius. Pure Genius. And all those reps practicing that 12 footer - those are only done by players who play at UNC.

I think Deon is doing very well, making some serious money in Europe last I heard.

Deon came in overweight, with nice hands..no major expectations. He left as a national champ and solid starter with well rounded offensive post game. Good enough, for me.

[Devilsfan]

Ryan and Dre are playing hard. Well Ryan is. But he is a glue man or a top level role player. Dre is a catch and shoot role player. What's missing is the two or three super stars we are all used to seeing at Duke. We are two, "one or two and dones" away from being a Ky. or 'cuse this year IMO. This team has OVERACHIEVED! They and Coach K should be commended not criticized for this years performance. But we are spoiled. We expect perfection. There is nothing wrong with this because "We are Duke". Now coaches, do the rest of your job and get us the missing link(s) to be the BEST. Not an easy task, I know, and you should probably be paid a combined $6-$7 million for doing this.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat: I fully expect to see the same post from you in 2 years when UNC's development of top 10 recruit mcadoo has time to take hold. There is no substitute for great talent and UNC's roster is dripping with it. Roy certainly can recruit.

McAdoo is another good example, no matter what he was ranked. He's certainly improving every day.

A good big man to watch develope as we move forward will be Joel James next season. He has Deon like expectations,or less.

Let's see what Roy and UNC staff do with him.

[Saratoga2]

Answering a post in the in-game thread, which is now closed. Someone said it's odd when Marshall can hit everything but Curry and Dawkins can't. I don't disagree. But Dawkins got to take one shot--at no other time when he was in the game did anyone get the ball to him when he was open, and Coach K didn't give him much time on the court. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't get it. When you are deep in the hole and Seth Curry is going 3-13 and Ryan Kelly is going 1-8 and even Austin Rivers is going 1-6 from 3, wouldn't you a) give Dawkins a chance, and/or b) at least suggest that someone pass to him during the few minutes that you did put him in the game?

I really don't know what has happened between Coach K and Andre over the last two weeks, but honestly, I don't think it's a good sign for our post-season prospects. Duke depends on outside shooting, whether we like it or not, and if some folks aren't hitting, it seems like other folks need to get an opportunity. I didn't see Andre do anything so terrible on defense tonight that it justified abandoning him completely (especially since apparently no one could play good defense in the first half, with the possible exception of Miles).

Whatever is going on between Andre and the coaching staff, they seem to have abandoned him and left us without a needed weapon. I do believe Andre made an early defensive mistake, but so did many others.

[Bob Green]

Isn't having that balance more of a luxury than an actual skill? Who else can say they have that kind of front court and that kind of point guard?

To be fair, Coach Williams must be given credit for successful recruiting. He has dominant post players, a top notch point guard and dominant wing players because he hit the recruiting trail and brought the pieces to Chapel Hill.


I think a good argument is being made for Roy to look at shortening his rotation. Two years in a row the heels have actually improved when they lost a guy for the rest of the season. Lucky for them, neither time was it one of the major offensive players. Not saying it is the reason for improvement, but I think an argument could be made for it.

I completely agree with you here. A persistent criticism I have had toward Coach Williams is his long rotation. Simply stated, he plays too many players too many minutes. His hand has been forced by injuries the last two years and the shortened rotation is paying dividends.

[jipops]

I think Deon is doing very well, making some serious money in Europe last I heard.

Deon came in overweight, with nice hands..no major expectations. He left as a national champ and solid starter with well rounded offensive post game. Good enough, for me.

Yes he did. And he had a post game coming in. Also left having not improved defensively and unfulfilled from learning any type of leadership role which was expected his senior year.

I just had to bite on this because the argument that certain programs develop certain positions better than others constantly has me shaking my head. It has so much more to do with the individual player than the coach or even the system. Otherwise, Dave Odom must be a coaching genius. My point of bringing up Deon is, if UNC is so great at developing its bigs, why isn't every big man it has recruited a huge success in the way Henson and Zeller are? Every major div1 program works their players hard, every major program works on fundamentals and builds on players' strengths. That's part of why they are major programs. Sure Henson thrives in UNC's pass ahead uptempo style, the kid is a freakish 6-10 gazelle. When you're a program that has a near constant influx of balanced talent, it seems to create the perception that the program is excellent at developing it as opposed to if that program had never gotten that talent in the 1st place. Otherwise, should K get credit for making Kyrie a #1 pick?

Roy (and his staff) is very good at what he does. There is no dispute there. I just don't see anything that makes him unique from so many other coaches.

[Saratoga2]

I hope there are no meltdowns here. There is no reason for one. Though it was a painful loss to UNC (as if any to UNC aren't extemely painful) there is a ton to be proud of with this group. For 3 halves this season we have gone toe-to-toe with what is arguably the best team in the country employing an abundance of NBA-ready talent. Matchup-wise there is no way we should be hanging with these guys but with the exception of one one-sided half we did.

Great work by our bigs tonight. Obviously all they do in practice is try to set screens;) UNC's just showed they have more talent tonight. And it was a great job by the heels perimeter D to take away the 3 in the 1st half. Also kind of lucky for Duke that Roy got in 'horde the timeouts' mode so Duke could make a push.

Most of Ryan's shots were wide open. He just missed all of the 3's.

[Bob Green]

Anyone still doubt Zeller as ACC POY?

Coach Krzyzewski agrees with you and it is hard to argue with the Man.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-dukes-krzyzewski-calls-north-carolinas-zeller-the-acc-player-of-the-year-20120303,0,4790082.story?track=rss

[jipops]

To be fair, Coach Williams must be given credit for successful recruiting. He has dominant post players, a top notch point guard and dominant wing players because he hit the recruiting trail and brought the pieces to Chapel Hill.



I think this aspect of Roy is a little over-rated as well. Case in point - Matt Doherty - what about the great class he brought in during his short stint? Recruiting for UNC is quite a bit easier than it is for most other programs. I would actually say that a coach for UNC actually doesn't have to work as hard in recruiting as others. UNC is a favorite among many kids growing up, it's one of the more popular programs out there nationally. It built it's reputation long before the 24hr sports media - and Roy has been reaping the benefits of this.

I'm not saying Roy doesn't work hard at this, I'm quite sure he does. But if his recruiting pitches are anything like his press conferences, then UNC must be coming in with the upper hand already.

[Kfanarmy]

Seen people giving UNC credit for defense a couple of times in this thread... I didn't see it. Duke lost this game in the 1st ten minutes through bad shooting and watching the ball in the air instead of blocking out, thats about it...most of the shots in the 1st ten minutes were wide open. Carolina's height is a physical fact, aside from recruiting, it isn't to the coaching credit of coach Williams that a 6'7" player can shoot over a 6'1" player. I do however give him credit for getting his guys to attack the glass when a shot is in the air...really hard to understand why some of Duke's guards get caught watching to see if the ball is going in while the other team is in the air for the rebound. If Duke just hits 3 more shots over the 1st ten minutes, they likely win this game...Carolina was ready to fold when Duke got it to 11 and was given heart when Duke couldn't hit the shot to take it under ten...I think a rematch would be a 50-50 proposition. I do think Duke guards have to work harder, but that is solely about height. Carolina simply isn't significantly better at defense than Duke.

[Devilsfan]

They need to change today's sports center top ten to Duke lets unc bench dominate sports center top ten.

[DukeDevil]

couldn't read through all 11 pages before work, only got through the first 4...but anyone know what was being cheered that made coach K step out and tell everyone to stop?

DD

[HS Dukie]

They were chanting Go to Hell Carolina, Eat $hi+!. Coach quickly came out and put a stop to it.

I also would like to point out the woman sitting in front of us that was reading a book on her smartphone through the ENTIRE game. Are you kidding me?

[diveonthefloor]

Tried to read this whole thread this morning. Please excuse any repetition.

1) Really have to admire Zeller. Great skills, smart player, plays hard, and not a punk.
2) Wish I could describe the UNC fans behind the bench w that last descriptor. Some started taunting a little old lady Devil fan sitting to Mickie's right, and it was a horrible display of the worst kind of sports fan.
3) When we cut deep into the lead w 4 or 5 minutes left and had 7 team fouls, I am shocked we didn't try to foul Henson. Yeah, would have been a gamble but a smart one.
4) Bullock is a hard matchup for us.
5) Karl Hess is still horrble, but at least he didn't cost us the game.
6) If UNC stays focused and out of foul trouble, they may win the whole enchilada.

[ncexnyc]

Let me first congratulate Wheat. His team came out focused and they took it to us early and often. Every dog has it’s day and yesterday was the heel’s day. I really don’t understand all the flack some of you are throwing Wheat’s way. Let him enjoy his moment and talk all the junk he wants, his teamed earned him that right. I will say that we were a missed Seth Curry 3 pt shot away from another spectacular comeback, as the pucker factor would have been off the chart for the heels had that shot dropped. Of course if pigs had wings.....

At the half I said we needed to do four things to give us a chance, box out, hit free throws, make open shots, and bigs play like bigs. We got two out of the four and still were within one shot of making a game out of it. Love the heart we showed as it would have been very easy to lay down and die.

Don’t love our chances going forward, especially with the short bench and what appears to be the very real possibility of having to play FSU and UNC back to back. To pull this coming weekend off we need Dre, Josh, and Silent G to give us some solid minutes.

[uh_no]

They were chanting Go to Hell Carolina, Eat $hi+!. Coach quickly came out and put a stop to it.

I also would like to point out the woman sitting in front of us that was reading a book on her smartphone through the ENTIRE game. Are you kidding me?

wait wait wait.....since when are students not allowed to GTHC????? or was it just the second part that was being chided?

[CDu]

wait wait wait.....since when are students not allowed to GTHC????? or was it just the second part that was being chided?

I'm guessing the second part. The first part has been a staple of the Crazies for forever (including games in which UNC was not involved).

Though I'd also note that the second part was also pretty commonly heard when I was at Duke. "Carolina go to Hell, eat sh--" was a common refrain during the fight song (instead of "beat State").

[DukieInBrasil]

if our guards had rebounded last night, we may very well have had a chance to win that game. Only one of guards (TT) had more than one rebound (2). That demonstrates a total lack of focus and effort. K is right to point out that when our guards aren't hitting their shots they just check out of the game in other areas. It really is frustrating, cuz you can see them putting in effort, although it's almost entirely trying to find a shot. Ryan Kelly shouldn't be allowed to skate on this either, as he only pulled in one rebound. His lack of post defence also leads to a lot of Oboards for opponents, since it is nearly impossible to crash the glass after having flopped to the floor. He's pretty good as a weak-side or off-ball defender in the post, but not when an opposing PF/C has the ball.

[uh_no]

I'm guessing the second part. The first part has been a staple of the Crazies for forever (including games in which UNC was not involved).

Hm. The second part was certainly part of the cheer when i was there...but i saw a video where the crazies were outside and the second part was much more prominent....so perhaps as times have changed, its moved from GTHC,es to gtch, ES....and that was what was displeasing......shrug....

[AsiaMinor]

It's difficult when the team you most want to beat plays better than do you.
They were good.
We were not.
Love to Miles, will miss you a lot.

[Edouble]

It's difficult when the team you most want to beat plays better than do you.
They were good.
We were not.
Love to Miles, will miss you a lot.

He's not done yet!!!!

[Duke76]

I don't know, though... it's one thing for a player with a 4-6", 30+ pound disadvantage to plant himself between his man and the basket when his man is a stationary post player. It's another thing when his man is a wing who is running off screens, cutting around, and making you face guard him when he runs the baseline. You've got to have perfect awareness and timing with a little luck.

They can do better than they did tonight, I just think our scheme really asks our 6'2-6'4 guys to play beyond themselves against certain types of teams.

Really got to disagree with the above.....proper fundamentals on boxing out can offset size and weight most of the time.....move your feet....keep contact with your guarded man....you already should be between him and the basket...if all 5 box out with determination the ball drops to the ground in theory.....attention to details on defense can make up for lack of athleticism, imo

[ncexnyc]

Really got to disagree with the above.....proper fundamentals on boxing out can offset size and weight most of the time.....move your feet....keep contact with your guarded man....you already should be between him and the basket...if all 5 box out with determination the ball drops to the ground in theory.....attention to details on defense can make up for lack of athleticism, imo

In theory this sounds good, but these plays don't unfold in such a cut and dry fashion. Let's remember and acknowledge we have physical limitations with this squad. This often leads to players being out of ideal position. Couple that fact with the fact that you're up against players who have superior size and athleticism and you get what we saw last night. Were there blown assignments? Yes, there were, but for the most part it was superior talent, which was executing at a very high level, coupled with the failure of our shooting the 3, which is normally our great equalizer when faced with superior athleticism that made things look so bad.

[BluDvlsN1]

Unc played closer to their talent level,they did what they had to do and what we didnt stop them from doing it.
Too big a hole to dig out of this time.

Downside,we didn't defend CIS, well again, can't remember a game where the whole team was
"steering" shots from the field and hesitant around the rim,really tight and nervous first part of the game.
Just maybe too much hype to block out.
Upside we're a good road team and all road games left.

All teams are beatable, matchups are key this time of year, as we all know.

Throaty is right, they were begining to hear footsteps, If Curry's 3 goes in, more tension sets in,
single digits are possible with 5min left, it was doable. We miss, they respond!

Miles was huge, Mason came alive, critical in all games going forward.
Our shooting was an abberation, not a trend.
Team Defense and boards, 40 min worth...will solve many ills, it will come down to how much do they want it?

We had a tough loss with national attention, cliff ending? Or springboard ?
I think springboard, imo.
It's still only one game, albeit, one we wanted.

hurleyfor3 had the most timely EA post, for comic relief, great stuff,great timing.
Just gotta laugh, regroup, move forward.

There is a saying that it's hard to beat a good team 3 times in a row,
that scenario now out of the equation, let's hope for ACC rubber game Sunday.

Next play.

[ChicagoHeel]

I just had to bite on this because the argument that certain programs develop certain positions better than others constantly has me shaking my head. It has so much more to do with the individual player than the coach or even the system....Roy (and his staff) is very good at what he does. There is no dispute there. I just don't see anything that makes him unique from so many other coaches.

I don't disagree with your basic point that all teams try to develop players and individual effort matters greatly, but I would still say that Roy deserves more credit than he gets here for developing players and his team. While it was not the point of your specific comment, it's common here for Roy to be given credit primarily for, or only for, recruiting. Most of the success the team enjoys is a function of the talent and we do best when Roy's hand is forced (i.e. shifting Henson back to his natural spot due to injury, injuries forcing a shortened rotation, etc) . Roy is 7-2 against Duke in the second game, which speaks to the fact that his teams tend to get better as the season progresses. That is not simply talent shining through, but the results of well coached talent playing in a system that works exceptionally well.

Roy and his system also develop individual players well. Better than other teams? That's hard to say definitively- not sure how you could prove or disprove it. Yes, individual effort is probably the single most important variable explaining why Zeller or Henson or any big man has improved. But it's not like they are spending time alone in a gym. They are being coached throughout their careers. Also we run our offense through big men, so their success is very much a function of the system, coaching, and overall program (e.g. it helps to play your summer ball against Rasheed Wallace).

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just think that, while you may not like his public persona, Roy's coaching and player development deserves credit. LAst thing, the idea that Roy's success is primarily a function of individual player talent is the same faulty logic that keeps Coach K from winning coach of the year.

[RockyMtDevil]

Throw everything else out the window, this is the bottom line. Their talent is superior to ours. They have 4 or 5 definite pros and are bringing in more next year. Our second half play shows we can play with them but we had to work so hard to get good looks compared to the shots they were taking.

This is about the only stat we need to look at right now, they simply have more talent than we do with Barnes, Henson, Zeller and Marshall. It's just too simple, they have pro(s) and we have one pro and several really quality college players. Sure, Mason will get drafted on potential, but 4 pros against 1 almost always equals a loss. Oh well, Next Play. We'll learn and hopefully rebound better if nothing else, you don't have to be a future NBA player to stick your butt into somebody and grab a bloody rebound for goodness sake.

[Edouble]

This is about the only stat we need to look at right now, they simply have more talent than we do with Barnes, Henson, Zeller and Marshall. It's just too simple, they have pro(s) and we have one pro and several really quality college players. Sure, Mason will get drafted on potential, but 4 pros against 1 almost always equals a loss. Oh well, Next Play. We'll learn and hopefully rebound better if nothing else, you don't have to be a future NBA player to stick your butt into somebody and grab a bloody rebound for goodness sake.

To me, what is simple, is that when you play a team as good as UNC, with that many future pros, you need to bring your "A" game. We did not.

There are many examples that I could point to, that I'm sure you already know of, of teams with less future NBA players beating teams with more/better future NBA players.

[jipops]

I don't disagree with your basic point that all teams try to develop players and individual effort matters greatly, but I would still say that Roy deserves more credit than he gets here for developing players and his team. While it was not the point of your specific comment, it's common here for Roy to be given credit primarily for, or only for, recruiting. Most of the success the team enjoys is a function of the talent and we do best when Roy's hand is forced (i.e. shifting Henson back to his natural spot due to injury, injuries forcing a shortened rotation, etc) . Roy is 7-2 against Duke in the second game, which speaks to the fact that his teams tend to get better as the season progresses. That is not simply talent shining through, but the results of well coached talent playing in a system that works exceptionally well.

Roy and his system also develop individual players well. Better than other teams? That's hard to say definitively- not sure how you could prove or disprove it. Yes, individual effort is probably the single most important variable explaining why Zeller or Henson or any big man has improved. But it's not like they are spending time alone in a gym. They are being coached throughout their careers. Also we run our offense through big men, so their success is very much a function of the system, coaching, and overall program (e.g. it helps to play your summer ball against Rasheed Wallace).

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just think that, while you may not like his public persona, Roy's coaching and player development deserves credit. LAst thing, the idea that Roy's success is primarily a function of individual player talent is the same faulty logic that keeps Coach K from winning coach of the year.

I think this a very well constructed response and I really don't disagree with most of it. I think fans tend to give too much credit to coaches when things go well and too much blame when things don't. And at times they don't get enough credit after expectations were unrealistic. Obviously Roy is doing a lot of things right on the floor to sustain this kind of success. But realistically this should be tempered by the fact that he has a larger margin of error than most anyone else. And yes he develops his players well. But that's also like saying my kid is good at finishing her well-cooked dinner.

Every coach faces adversity at some point, and on the rare occasions Roy has faced it, it hasn't gone well. That aspect doesn't make him different than most other coaches either. And what he does for player development isn't any better than many others.

Having said this, I fully expect the heels to cut down the nets in April.

[Duke76]

In theory this sounds good, but these plays don't unfold in such a cut and dry fashion. Let's remember and acknowledge we have physical limitations with this squad. This often leads to players being out of ideal position. Couple that fact with the fact that you're up against players who have superior size and athleticism and you get what we saw last night. Were there blown assignments? Yes, there were, but for the most part it was superior talent, which was executing at a very high level, coupled with the failure of our shooting the 3, which is normally our great equalizer when faced with superior athleticism that made things look so bad.


Sorry, just don't buy it...our physical limitations don't cause the poor fundamentals regarding boxing out or lack thereof on defense....we simply don't practice good fundamentals on defense....IMO. If we did they would not have gotten so many 2nd and 3rd attempts....

On offense we were tight with our shots in the first half....everything coming up short...we should have known they were going to stop the screen sets at the top of key and run different plays...too much dribble, dribble, dribble plays and not enough passing to the interior and back out again and back in again, IMO

We gotta miss it up more on offense with different kinda plays

[jipops]

Miles' rant about the team lacking effort for a full game - I find that encouraging. Reminds me of Phil Henderson's "babies" comment which helped propel them to the Final Four.

[#1Duke]

I don't disagree with your basic point that all teams try to develop players and individual effort matters greatly, but I would still say that Roy deserves more credit than he gets here for developing players and his team. While it was not the point of your specific comment, it's common here for Roy to be given credit primarily for, or only for, recruiting. Most of the success the team enjoys is a function of the talent and we do best when Roy's hand is forced (i.e. shifting Henson back to his natural spot due to injury, injuries forcing a shortened rotation, etc) . Roy is 7-2 against Duke in the second game, which speaks to the fact that his teams tend to get better as the season progresses. That is not simply talent shining through, but the results of well coached talent playing in a system that works exceptionally well.

Roy and his system also develop individual players well. Better than other teams? That's hard to say definitively- not sure how you could prove or disprove it. Yes, individual effort is probably the single most important variable explaining why Zeller or Henson or any big man has improved. But it's not like they are spending time alone in a gym. They are being coached throughout their careers. Also we run our offense through big men, so their success is very much a function of the system, coaching, and overall program (e.g. it helps to play your summer ball against Rasheed Wallace).

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just think that, while you may not like his public persona, Roy's coaching and player development deserves credit. LAst thing, the idea that Roy's success is primarily a function of individual player talent is the same faulty logic that keeps Coach K from winning coach of the year.


Good post. Why do you think Roy is only given credit for recruiting?? Or, maybe I should ask, if he is only given credit for recruiting, why does that viewpoint even exist?
Schools/Programs/Coaches with successful programs draw the top players.... end of story.
So, if a coach is good at "recruiting", it isn't because he has a silver tongue or is an accomplished wordsmith, it's because he runs a successful program and top players WANT to be part of it.
If a program has a less than stellar record, has limited exposure on the national scene, etc. no matter how good the coach is at talking to potential recruits they WILL NOT get the best out there.

So, saying that a coach is only good at recruiting is nonsense at best. Recruiting and RECORD go hand in hand.
You can not separate the two it is impossible .... thinking otherwise just shows a tremendous lack of understanding about how the process works.

[J.Blink]

While it was not the point of your specific comment, it's common here for Roy to be given credit primarily for, or only for, recruiting. Most of the success the team enjoys is a function of the talent and we do best when Roy's hand is forced (i.e. shifting Henson back to his natural spot due to injury, injuries forcing a shortened rotation, etc) . Roy is 7-2 against Duke in the second game, which speaks to the fact that his teams tend to get better as the season progresses. That is not simply talent shining through, but the results of well coached talent playing in a system that works exceptionally well.

I don't disagree with your post as a whole, but I would add that it's a common refrain on Inside Carolina to complain about Roy's in-game coaching (doesn't call timeouts, etc), while saying all he does is recruit. So, I don't think it's just a Duke fan thing to say.

[ncexnyc]

Sorry, just don't buy it...our physical limitations don't cause the poor fundamentals regarding boxing out or lack thereof on defense....we simply don't practice good fundamentals on defense....IMO. If we did they would not have gotten so many 2nd and 3rd attempts....

On offense we were tight with our shots in the first half....everything coming up short...we should have known they were going to stop the screen sets at the top of key and run different plays...too much dribble, dribble, dribble plays and not enough passing to the interior and back out again and back in again, IMO

We gotta miss it up more on offense with different kinda plays

I seriously doubt any team coached by K is going to come up short when it comes to practicing sound defensive fundamentals. Now if you want to say the execution was poor then fine, I'll accept that, but only to a certain degree. At certain times we'll come up against teams that have better players at certain positions, which enable them to exploit those advantages.

[oldnavy]

I don't disagree with your post as a whole, but I would add that it's a common refrain on Inside Carolina to complain about Roy's in-game coaching (doesn't call timeouts, etc), while saying all he does is recruit. So, I don't think it's just a Duke fan thing to say.

I love bashing Ol Roy. It is a hobby of mine. However I have to say this year he has done a pretty good job. I still would not put him in the same class as K, but then again I don't think there are any in Coach K's class.

Roy is a tremendous recruiter, but he does have the advantage of coaching two of the top 5 programs in NCAA history so it wasn't like he walked into programs that needed to start from scratch. Even when he took over UNC the talent was there.

I have some issues with his personality, thin skin, "aw shucks" routine, and foot in mouth disease. The stunt of pulling his players off the court while leaving the walkons is a classic Roy like move. But he wins tons of games.

I also don't think he is very adept at making in-game adjustments (Kansas beat down in 2008) or mid-season adjustments when things are going South (2010 for example).

Having said all that I have a son who played HS basketball. He was good, but not good enough to play ACC level. However if he had the chance to go and play for Roy, I would give him my blessing, because I do think he is basically a good guy deep down and cares for his players. I cant say the same about many other coaches, like Calipari, Chalhoun, Pitino, and others.

[MCFinARL]

Miles' rant about the team lacking effort for a full game - I find that encouraging. Reminds me of Phil Henderson's "babies" comment which helped propel them to the Final Four.

I agree. It seems maybe seeing the light (or darkness) at the end of the tunnel has propelled Miles into fully embracing the leadership of this team, both on the court and off. Don't know how much difference it will make, but it can't possibly hurt--and I'm glad for Miles that he is seizing the day.

[Duke76]

I seriously doubt any team coached by K is going to come up short when it comes to practicing sound defensive fundamentals. Now if you want to say the execution was poor then fine, I'll accept that, but only to a certain degree. At certain times we'll come up against teams that have better players at certain positions, which enable them to exploit those advantages.

Right, the execution was poor, when the execution is proper most times you can blunt the better players and in fact that is the main weapon to use against superior atheletes on both the offensive and defensive ends....case in point is the Princeton offense used by inferior athletic teams...built on precision and timing and quite often very effective and a winning solution...not advocating that offense just using as an example.

I think K would admit and has in so many words said we have played poor defensively in our losses and even in some of our wins. They may be practicing sound fundamentals but it is not carrying over to the games. It's not fair to fault them for their lack of athleticism...they can't do anything about that but their lapse of fundamentals is inexcusable at this level.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Good post. Why do you think Roy is only given credit for recruiting?? Or, maybe I should ask, if he is only given credit for recruiting, why does that viewpoint even exist?
Schools/Programs/Coaches with successful programs draw the top players.... end of story.
So, if a coach is good at "recruiting", it isn't because he has a silver tongue or is an accomplished wordsmith, it's because he runs a successful program and top players WANT to be part of it.
If a program has a less than stellar record, has limited exposure on the national scene, etc. no matter how good the coach is at talking to potential recruits they WILL NOT get the best out there.

So, saying that a coach is only good at recruiting is nonsense at best. Recruiting and RECORD go hand in hand.
You can not separate the two it is impossible .... thinking otherwise just shows a tremendous lack of understanding about how the process works.

There are many, many very good players out there that do not attend UNC.

Roy deserves respect for his coaching, it's that simple, and the only point I try to continually make around here.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Sometimes we just have a bad game. Our guards aren't always going to shoot that poorly, and the other team isn't always going to shoot that well. I hate that it was Carolina that smoked us on our home floor, but, it happens. We'll bounce back.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Sometimes we just have a bad game. Our guards aren't always going to shoot that poorly, and the other team isn't always going to shoot that well. I hate that it was Carolina that smoked us on our home floor, but, it happens. We'll bounce back.

I am curious when you say, " we will bounce back". It is the end of the season. Where will we, " bounce back" ? In your heart of hearts do you mean we will ," bounce back", to win the ACC tournament ? " Bounce back", to make the Final Four; to win the NCAA tournament? " Bounce back", for next year?

There really is so little time to ," bounce back" as everything now is a one and done situation...The ACC tourney, the NCAA tourney.

I have said this before , I would not be surprised if Duke does not survive the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. I think that Coach K has done a stupendous job this year and based on its rankings, in my opinion I think that Duke is quite overrated.

[UrinalCake]

I think our guards just aren't accustomed to boxing out their man. Most teams don't send five guys to the offensive boards. UNC did, and gambled that it wouldn't lead to any fast breaks by us. That was a smart coaching move, as they figured we wouldn't want to get into an up-and-down game with them, and aside from that our fast break execution has been pretty awful all year. So you have guards who aren't really thinking about blocking out, plus they're guarding someone with 3-6 inches on them... it's a recipe for disaster.

Of all of our guards I think Austin does the best job with rebounding. However, most of his boards are from drifting under the basket and picking up loose balls. He doesn't really box his man out, per se. Anyways, I hope and expect that this will be addressed moving forward.

[ncexnyc]

I am curious when you say, " we will bounce back". It is the end of the season. Where will we, " bounce back" ? In your heart of hearts do you mean we will ," bounce back", to win the ACC tournament ? " Bounce back", to make the Final Four; to win the NCAA tournament? " Bounce back", for next year?

There really is so little time to ," bounce back" as everything now is a one and done situation...The ACC tourney, the NCAA tourney.

I have said this before , I would not be surprised if Duke does not survive the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. I think that Coach K has done a stupendous job this year and based on its rankings, in my opinion I think that Duke is quite overrated.

Just want to make sure I completely understand, but are you sure you really mean, "Duke is quite overrated" and not "Duke has overachieved?"

[Devilsfan]

Ol Roy could have been the best AAU coach on the planet. Assemble five of the finest BB playas on the planet, practice includes multiple 17s, roll the ball out and let your thorobreds run and gun. They are truly "overwhelming", or in other words if they don't win it all something's wrong. You determine what.

[davekay1971]

I am curious when you say, " we will bounce back". It is the end of the season. Where will we, " bounce back" ? In your heart of hearts do you mean we will ," bounce back", to win the ACC tournament ? " Bounce back", to make the Final Four; to win the NCAA tournament? " Bounce back", for next year?

There really is so little time to ," bounce back" as everything now is a one and done situation...The ACC tourney, the NCAA tourney.

I have said this before , I would not be surprised if Duke does not survive the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. I think that Coach K has done a stupendous job this year and based on its rankings, in my opinion I think that Duke is quite overrated.

How long does a "bounce back" take? Can one "bounce back" by Friday, which is the only game currently on our calendar? Does it require Duke winning the ACC tournament for you, in your expertise, to credit the team with adequately bouncing back? Or, if we perform so badly as to not win the ACC tournament, do we have to make the final four or win the NCAA tournament for you to give a thumbs up to our team having finally "bounced back"?

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to hope the team will bounce back with a good performance against VT/Clemson. They may or may not be able to win the ACC tournament, but they could actually play quite well and still lose to a very good FSU or an extremely good UNC team on Saturday or Sunday.

Good luck in your quest to be able to tell us all how brilliant you are in your basketball prognostication abilities. If Duke does, indeed lose in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament, I fully hope to see a thread started by you entitled, "See, I was right, we were quite overrated", and I will post on there my heartfelt congratulations and recognition that, yes, you sir, called it.

[#1Duke]

Ol Roy could have been the best AAU coach on the planet. Assemble five of the finest BB playas on the planet, practice includes multiple 17s, roll the ball out and let your thorobreds run and gun. They are truly "overwhelming", or in other words if they don't win it all something's wrong. You determine what.

Then why bother playing the games?? Did they achieve this status in your mind because they beat us big time? Anything can happen and I feel like there are 4 teams that could win it all.
Many times it's about match-ups , how individual players are feeling on any given day/ night, even bad calls and no calls can affect a games outcome especially when so many games are won by 3 points or less.

Tell ya what. UNC beat us as badly as they did for one reason. It wasn't that we are not athletic enough... that's hog wash.
What caused our embarrassing defeat was our young guys could not handle the pressure and the hype.... period. They were tight and nervous the entire first half. Rivers played the whole first half of the game with a "deer in the headlights" look about him. NOT knocking him, he's a FRESHMAN and I don't believe he ever felt that kind of pressure before. I don't know if ANY Freshman ever has until they get on such a stage.

So, IF you are trying to suggest that if UNC does not win it all that they have failed collectively or individually, I think you are mistaken.

They very well COULD win it all but I'll wait, watch the games and see if another team steps up and plays the game of the season.... it's entirely possible and again, it's THE reason the games are played.

[gep]

I am curious when you say, " we will bounce back". It is the end of the season. Where will we, " bounce back" ? In your heart of hearts do you mean we will ," bounce back", to win the ACC tournament ? " Bounce back", to make the Final Four; to win the NCAA tournament? " Bounce back", for next year?

There really is so little time to ," bounce back" as everything now is a one and done situation...The ACC tourney, the NCAA tourney.

I have said this before , I would not be surprised if Duke does not survive the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. I think that Coach K has done a stupendous job this year and based on its rankings, in my opinion I think that Duke is quite overrated.

Well... my glass is always more than half full. "Bounce back"... I think winning the ACCT is a definite "bounce back". Getting to the Final Four is even more of a "bounce back". Winning the NC... well, that is the definition of "bounce back".

DUKE had a very good season so far. Imagine, if 2 of the 3 ACC losses were to GaTech and NCState, instead of FSU and unc (meaning sweeping both FSU and unc). Maybe still tied for ACC regular season (if FSU and/or unc find another win), but I don't think many here would be as "down" as they are now if that happened. I think the overwhelming loss to unc is just "hard to take", especially the last game of the regular season, and giving unc the outright regular season title.

But remember... there is MORE TO COME!!! GO DUKE!!!

[throatybeard]

Excellent game prep/ game management from Roy Williams. One of the best coaches in the country and this game showed it. He builds teams to have balance, and last night trouble for Duke came from everywhere on the floor.

Defense. UNC defended with focus, something that was not always the case this season. A really good defensive team when they committ to it.

Marshall could not be contained off the dribble, made good decisions and finished when he needed to. A key to the game for sure.

Anyone still doubt Zeller as ACC POY?

Henson is the latest testament to how big men improve during their stay at UNC. Should he decide to stay next season, he'll lead NPOY preseason talk.

Duke played hard, no-one should question their effort. It was just a night where some weakness was exposed, mainly rebounding, but also at the 3 spot.

UNC forced Duke to try and beat them from inside the 3pt line, and Duke came up just 18 pts short in this one.

Well fine, Wheat, but do you have anything to say about the more important things in life, like how attractive EA is?

I could go with Stoglin over Zeller for POY. Zeller is fantastic.

[trinity79]

Tell ya what. UNC beat us as badly as they did for one reason. It wasn't that we are not athletic enough... that's hog wash.
What caused our embarrassing defeat was our young guys could not handle the pressure and the hype.... period. They were tight and nervous the entire first half. Rivers played the whole first half of the game with a "deer in the headlights" look about him. NOT knocking him, he's a FRESHMAN and I don't believe he ever felt that kind of pressure before. I don't know if ANY Freshman ever has until they get on such a stage.


Well, let's examine your assertion a bit, shall we. First off, I despise the term "athletic" when applied to college hoops because I believe it has become a sort of Swiss army knife code word for all sorts of things. Second, our "young" guys are not, collectively, very much younger than UNC's players. Google it: UNC starts Barnes and Marshall, both sophomores. Extremely good sophomores, but still second-year players. Bullock is also a sophomore. Henson is a junior, Zeller a senior. So I make that 3 sophomores, a junior, and a senior. And none of these fifth-year senior/transfer/Tyler Hansblow 21 when I started college shenanigans either. OK, who do we start? A freshman, a sophomore, 2 juniors, and a senior (or a third junior if Mason starts). I'll admit that Cook's injury probably limited our options in the backcourt, but I doubt Coach K would EVER consistently start 2 freshmen at guard anyways.

Add it all up, we're not a younger (starting) team than UNC, but this crap has been perpetuated by the sports media this whole season. Even Coach K has had a hand in this nonsense. Of course, I would also accept the premise too if I were in Coach K's shoes. It allows you to poor mouth and steers the conversation away from the real story. UNC's players aren't older; they're just better. Again, run the numbers: look at how highly rated Barnes, Henson, Marshall, and Zeller were coming out of high school. I'm sure Barnes, Henson, Bullock, and Marshall were all top 20, and I believe Zeller was as well. It's sobering when you look this stuff up: ESPN had Bullock at 18, Zeller at 7th, Henson at 6th, and we all know the "Harrison Barnes story." Heck, even McAdoo off the bench was 6th according to ESPN. I realize that some of you will just turn this into another "ESPN anti-Duke conspiracy." Whatever. I think they generally attach the numerical ratings before the players commit to a school.

Now look at Duke: okay Rivers and Mason Plumlee were both top 10 recruits, according to ESPN. Kelly was 17. Miles was 47. I'm pretty sure Dawkins, Seth Curry, and Tyler Thornton weren't top 50, although Dawkins might have been close. Quinn Cook came in at 38. Believe me, I'm not trying to "grade" our players or criticize them. I'm just saying if you apply a consistent, objective talent yardstick here, UNC should be destroying us every time we play. While we're bringing in a top 10 recruit every year or two, ol' Deputy Dawg over there in Chapel Hill is bringing in waves of them every year. Freshman or not, you sure as h*ll can't blame Austin Rivers. I mean he won the first game in large part by himself. He's a lonely top 10 recruit out there playing against a whole team of them.

[UrinalCake]

Second, our "young" guys are not, collectively, very much younger than UNC's players. Google it: UNC starts Barnes and Marshall, both sophomores. Extremely good sophomores, but still second-year players. Bullock is also a sophomore. Henson is a junior, Zeller a senior. So I make that 3 sophomores, a junior, and a senior. And none of these fifth-year senior/transfer/Tyler Hansblow 21 when I started college shenanigans either. OK, who do we start? A freshman, a sophomore, 2 juniors, and a senior (or a third junior if Mason starts)....

Add it all up, we're not a younger (starting) team than UNC, but this crap has been perpetuated by the sports media this whole season.

If you look at it in terms of career minutes played, UNC is a much more experienced team than us. Here are the numbers I pulled off of ESPN:

Miles 2061
Seth 1857
Ryan 1773
Austin 1021
Tyler 960
(Mason 2299)

Henson 2496
Zeller 2473
Barnes 1958
Marshall 1930
Bullock 1129

Our most experienced guy, Miles, has never needed to be a leader until this year. And Barnes has played almost as many minutes as him. In fact, none of our guys have had to be leaders, because our leaders graduated last year. Our most talented guy is a freshman. Meanwhile, UNC's best players are also the most experienced.

As far as talent levels, these things go in cycles. Last year we had more talent than them, at least until Kyrie went down. We also had more experience. Next year, if Henson and Barnes leave as expected in addition to Zeller, and if Austin and/or Mason were to come back, we'd have the advantage again. That's what makes the rivalry so great. And even in a "down" year we're still pretty good.

[#1Duke]

Well, let's examine your assertion a bit, shall we. First off, I despise the term "athletic" when applied to college hoops because I believe it has become a sort of Swiss army knife code word for all sorts of things. Second, our "young" guys are not, collectively, very much younger than UNC's players. Google it: UNC starts Barnes and Marshall, both sophomores. Extremely good sophomores, but still second-year players. Bullock is also a sophomore. Henson is a junior, Zeller a senior. So I make that 3 sophomores, a junior, and a senior. And none of these fifth-year senior/transfer/Tyler Hansblow 21 when I started college shenanigans either. OK, who do we start? A freshman, a sophomore, 2 juniors, and a senior (or a third junior if Mason starts). I'll admit that Cook's injury probably limited our options in the backcourt, but I doubt Coach K would EVER consistently start 2 freshmen at guard anyways.

Add it all up, we're not a younger (starting) team than UNC, but this crap has been perpetuated by the sports media this whole season. Even Coach K has had a hand in this nonsense. Of course, I would also accept the premise too if I were in Coach K's shoes. It allows you to poor mouth and steers the conversation away from the real story. UNC's players aren't older; they're just better. Again, run the numbers: look at how highly rated Barnes, Henson, Marshall, and Zeller were coming out of high school. I'm sure Barnes, Henson, Bullock, and Marshall were all top 20, and I believe Zeller was as well. It's sobering when you look this stuff up: ESPN had Bullock at 18, Zeller at 7th, Henson at 6th, and we all know the "Harrison Barnes story." Heck, even McAdoo off the bench was 6th according to ESPN. I realize that some of you will just turn this into another "ESPN anti-Duke conspiracy." Whatever. I think they generally attach the numerical ratings before the players commit to a school.

Now look at Duke: okay Rivers and Mason Plumlee were both top 10 recruits, according to ESPN. Kelly was 17. Miles was 47. I'm pretty sure Dawkins, Seth Curry, and Tyler Thornton weren't top 50, although Dawkins might have been close. Quinn Cook came in at 38. Believe me, I'm not trying to "grade" our players or criticize them. I'm just saying if you apply a consistent, objective talent yardstick here, UNC should be destroying us every time we play. While we're bringing in a top 10 recruit every year or two, ol' Deputy Dawg over there in Chapel Hill is bringing in waves of them every year. Freshman or not, you sure as h*ll can't blame Austin Rivers. I mean he won the first game in large part by himself. He's a lonely top 10 recruit out there playing against a whole team of them.

My point was that we did not handle the pressure and hype... period... and we did not. We were tight and extremely nervous the first half. We settled down and played well in the second half for the most part.
Why is Deputy Dawg able to bring in so many highly rated players?? Doesn't Coach K want to bring in waves of top 10 players every year?? What's the problem??
I was not blaming Austin Rivers for anything. I was just stating that he had a "deer in the headlights" look about him the entire first half and I think his nerves got the best of him and that's understandable.
Also, I didn't say we were " a younger team " , I said our young guys didn't handle the pressure well and in the first half, they didn't.

[stixof96]

If you look at it in terms of career minutes played, UNC is a much more experienced team than us. Here are the numbers I pulled off of ESPN:

Miles 2061
Seth 1857
Ryan 1773
Austin 1021
Tyler 960
(Mason 2299)

Henson 2496
Zeller 2473
Barnes 1958
Marshall 1930
Bullock 1129

Our most experienced guy, Miles, has never needed to be a leader until this year. And Barnes has played almost as many minutes as him. In fact, none of our guys have had to be leaders, because our leaders graduated last year. Our most talented guy is a freshman. Meanwhile, UNC's best players are also the most experienced.

As far as talent levels, these things go in cycles. Last year we had more talent than them, at least until Kyrie went down. We also had more experience. Next year, if Henson and Barnes leave as expected in addition to Zeller, and if Austin and/or Mason were to come back, we'd have the advantage again. That's what makes the rivalry so great. And even in a "down" year we're still pretty good.

This is not the first time this year Duke has played poorly. Duke has played poorly against teams who were not as good as the Duke players too. I don't think N.C. loss was due to them just being much better than Duke, and Rivers certainly didn't play like a one man team, in fact, Miles had a better game than Rivers.

I have been following Duke basketball for 30 years now. The thing that I have always loved about Duke basketball is you always know what you are going to get. A 110% , intelligent, leaving it all out on the court effort. 5 guys who think the name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back.Win or lose, they do everything they are supposed to do and they never beat themselves. If anybody loses the game on the free throw line, it won't be Duke.Players that took prode in DEFENSE first.

This team just doesn't have these attributes. They play hard some nights and not so hard other nights. Some nights they hit their free throws pretty well and some nights they don't. They are conveniently good, not consistently good. They are becoming what everybody else is.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Just want to make sure I completely understand, but are you sure you really mean, "Duke is quite overrated" and not "Duke has overachieved?"

Good point.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Well... my glass is always more than half full. "Bounce back"... I think winning the ACCT is a definite "bounce back". Getting to the Final Four is even more of a "bounce back". Winning the NC... well, that is the definition of "bounce back".

DUKE had a very good season so far. Imagine, if 2 of the 3 ACC losses were to GaTech and NCState, instead of FSU and unc (meaning sweeping both FSU and unc). Maybe still tied for ACC regular season (if FSU and/or unc find another win), but I don't think many here would be as "down" as they are now if that happened. I think the overwhelming loss to unc is just "hard to take", especially the last game of the regular season, and giving unc the outright regular season title.

But remember... there is MORE TO COME!!! GO DUKE!!!

I totally agree with you. Duke has had a very, very good season so far and certainly winning the ACC tournament would be a ," bounce back". Yes, the overwhelming loss to UNC was hard to take but so were the losses at home to FSU,and Miami.

[NYC Duke Fan]

How long does a "bounce back" take? Can one "bounce back" by Friday, which is the only game currently on our calendar? Does it require Duke winning the ACC tournament for you, in your expertise, to credit the team with adequately bouncing back? Or, if we perform so badly as to not win the ACC tournament, do we have to make the final four or win the NCAA tournament for you to give a thumbs up to our team having finally "bounced back"?

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to hope the team will bounce back with a good performance against VT/Clemson. They may or may not be able to win the ACC tournament, but they could actually play quite well and still lose to a very good FSU or an extremely good UNC team on Saturday or Sunday.

Good luck in your quest to be able to tell us all how brilliant you are in your basketball prognostication abilities. If Duke does, indeed lose in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament, I fully hope to see a thread started by you entitled, "See, I was right, we were quite overrated", and I will post on there my heartfelt congratulations and recognition that, yes, you sir, called it.


Dave, your sarcasm behooves you. This was not a prognostication just an opinion based on what I have seen this season. Starting in January, Duke has beaten only 2 really good teams, ( UNC and FSU), and has struggled to put others away. Yes, they beat Kansas and Michigan in Maui and Michigan State at MSG early on, but those teams are better now then they were then.

I would never start a thread saying ," See I was right", but would acknowledge your congratulations.

Incidentially, in your opinion, which is worth or is as worthless as mine, how do you think Duke will do in the NCAA tournament ? What are your expectations? Do you think that they are a Final 4 team, an Elite 8 a Sweet 16?

[dukelifer]

Dave, your sarcasm behooves you. This was not a prognostication just an opinion based on what I have seen this season. Starting in January, Duke has beaten only 2 really good teams, ( UNC and FSU), and has struggled to put others away. Yes, they beat Kansas and Michigan in Maui and Michigan State at MSG early on, but those teams are better now then they were then.

I would never start a thread saying ," See I was right", but would acknowledge your congratulations.

Incidentially, in your opinion, which is worth or is as worthless as mine, how do you think Duke will do in the NCAA tournament ? What are your expectations? Do you think that they are a Final 4 team, an Elite 8 a Sweet 16?

How many really good teams has UNC beaten all year - particularly since Jan? How many games have they struggled to put away (see Duke and UVA)? I think you can say the same about many teams this year. There is really no great team in college ball this year. KY is looking strong but their youth is an issue.

[jaytoc]

Just what is it that you've observed this year that leads you to conclude that Kentucky's youth is an issue?

[MCFinARL]

Just what is it that you've observed this year that leads you to conclude that Kentucky's youth is an issue?

Good question. Kentucky's youth (or, in at least one case, immaturity) was an issue in 2010, for sure. And in theory a young team can always tighten up at tournament time. But this particular young Kentucky team plays like a team, not a pickup squad, and they play excellent defense (which is sometimes a problem for younger teams). Not saying they will win it all because a lot can happen. But I wouldn't bet against them right now just because they are young.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Good question. Kentucky's youth (or, in at least one case, immaturity) was an issue in 2010, for sure. And in theory a young team can always tighten up at tournament time. But this particular young Kentucky team plays like a team, not a pickup squad, and they play excellent defense (which is sometimes a problem for younger teams). Not saying they will win it all because a lot can happen. But I wouldn't bet against them right now just because they are young.

I agree with you., Syracuse with its zone could give them problems but I do not see another other than UNC that could beat them. Syracuse, UNC and Kentucky right now are by far the 3 best teams with maybe 7-10 teams below them

[dukelifer]

Just what is it that you've observed this year that leads you to conclude that Kentucky's youth is an issue?

Well they have not really played a killer schedule (two wins over Fla who does not match up well against them) and NCAA games tend to be close. KY is very good and could win it all- but experience does seem to matter in the tourney when things get tight. They are likely a FF team - but after that we shall see.

[davekay1971]

Dave, your sarcasm behooves you. This was not a prognostication just an opinion based on what I have seen this season. Starting in January, Duke has beaten only 2 really good teams, ( UNC and FSU), and has struggled to put others away. Yes, they beat Kansas and Michigan in Maui and Michigan State at MSG early on, but those teams are better now then they were then.

I would never start a thread saying ," See I was right", but would acknowledge your congratulations.

Incidentially, in your opinion, which is worth or is as worthless as mine, how do you think Duke will do in the NCAA tournament ? What are your expectations? Do you think that they are a Final 4 team, an Elite 8 a Sweet 16?

First, thank you! I pride myself on a healthy blend of cynicism and sarcasm!

I try to limit my prognostications on the NCAA tournament. I've followed the event far too long and far too closely to look at a team at the end of the regular season, before conference tournaments are done, and long before pairings are announced, and pretend to have any idea what a group of 18-21 year olds is going to do in an emotionally charged one-and-done event, particularly when they are competing against other groups of 18-21 year olds who are similarly emotionally charged. I also try to steer clear of fortune telling, ouija boards, and astrology.

Answering your fair question without all the humor, I really do think it's pretty pointless to say, "This is an elite eight team." I have no idea who might be our 2nd or 3rd round matchup or, assuming, say, we're a 2 seed, what's going to happen to the hypothetical 1, 4, and 5 seeds in the same bracket in which we haven't yet been placed. In 1983, as of the last game of the regular season, NC State was a "hope you enjoy watching from your dorm room" team. Weeks later, Cozell McQueen was standing on the rim celebrating being the starting center of the national champions.

A better question is probablÿ: is Duke, in my opinion (of questionable worth, I will be the first to admit) a national champion contender, or a team that has too many flaws to seriously make a run? I'd say we're a lot closer to a national champion contender than a team too fatally flawed to realistically make a run. I base that opinion, for what it's worth, on our record to date, particularly our record against NCAA tournament team caliber competition, as well an assessment of the other high level teams out there.

I have no idea, however, how that will translate into whether or not we win the thing, or at what round we might be eliminated. Tell you what, when the brackets are announced, I can tell you if I think we're likely to survive the first weekend. If we survive the first weekend and have an idea who we will face in the regional semis and regional finals, I'll tell you what I think about our chances to survive the 2nd weekend. Etc...

[jaytoc]

Sounds like you simply assume youth will be an issue, but not based on anything that has happened this year. When this Kentucky team was much younger it defended it's home court against the immensely talented and somewhat experienced Tarheels. Two wins over a pretty good Vandy team and an unbeaten conference schedule, however weak the SEC may be this year. I see no indication of youth as a weakness. We all know that anything can happen in one and done tourney play, and Kentucky may not win it all. But that won't necessarily mean that youth caused their downfall.