PDA

View Full Version : How lucky did we get with Coach P?



CameronBornAndBred
03-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Ok..here's a question I was just pondering while writing about Coach McCallie's latest recognition. When Coach G left to "greener" pastures at Texas, how lucky did Duke get by replacing her with Coach P? I was never a big Alleva fan, in fact I blamed a lot of G leaving on him. But he also made the hire to replace her, which in the long run is looking insanely good. The funny thing is, looking back...P was choice number three. Both Katie Meier and Joanne Boyle were asked first. (They are both doing fairly well too.) So it wasn't so bad going outside of the Duke family.
How many schools have been so fortunate to replace a coach that maintained the quality of a program that G had with one that has continued to do so like P has? She obviously has had her detractors, especially after the first two years, but since she got here she has done nothing but keep Duke consistantly in the upper echelon of women's basketball. You can't say the same about Coach Goestenkoers even...she has her team fighting to stay out of the NIT...and will probably be fighting for her job in the very near future if she doesn't improve.
When Coach K finally packs his bags, we can only hope that we are so fortunate with his replacement as we've been with Coach McCallie.

Kedsy
03-01-2012, 04:12 PM
Ok..here's a question I was just pondering while writing about Coach McCallie's latest recognition. When Coach G left to "greener" pastures at Texas, how lucky did Duke get by replacing her with Coach P?

Well said. Coach P took a lot of flak from her own fan base during her early years here, but her detractors sort of look silly, now, don't they?

killerleft
03-01-2012, 04:34 PM
CB&B says:

"When Coach K finally packs his bags, we can only hope that we are so fortunate with his replacement as we've been with Coach McCallie."

That more or less says it all. I don't think that Coach McCallie was the ONLY coach who could have led Duke to where we are now, but Alleva certainly made a fine choice. We can, as you say, only hope that Duke does as well when the time comes to find a successor to Coach Mike Krzyzewski.

throatybeard
03-01-2012, 05:06 PM
How lucky did we get with Coach P?

Extremely.

Further, something that has surprised me is how mediocre Goestenkors has been (by her Duke standards) at Texas. In her first four seasons at UT, they were just .500 in the league; at 7-10, she's now under .500. Overall, she's 101-62 (.620); she was an astounding .800 at Duke.

Indoor66
03-01-2012, 07:00 PM
Extremely.

Further, something that has surprised me is how mediocre Goestenkors has been (by her Duke standards) at Texas. In her first four seasons at UT, they were just .500 in the league; at 7-10, she's now under .500. Overall, she's 101-62 (.620); she was an astounding .800 at Duke.

Maybe those stats say more about Duke than Coach G.

CameronBornAndBred
03-01-2012, 07:30 PM
Maybe those stats say more about Duke than Coach G.

Duke is largely where it is now because of G. I've followed some of the Longhorn forums the last couple seasons and it seems that G's biggest problem is ironically recruiting. She did an amazing job here, but she didn't retain any of the Texas folks when she moved and basically has had a hard time getting the local girls to buy into what she can offer. She can coach with the best of them, but if you don't have the talent, especially in a conference as tough as the Big 12, you are doomed.

loran16
03-01-2012, 09:48 PM
Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

uh_no
03-01-2012, 10:33 PM
Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

I think much like you. I've been very critical of Coach P, especially her game planning and offensive schemes. I have been MUCH more impressed this season with what she's done than I have in past years, and I will be most fair in delaying further judgement until I see what she does with a team that is loaded with talent.

Aside from that, she has kept the program at a very very high level, there is no doubt about that, but women's basketball coaches (much more so than mens) seem to be divided fairly sharply into two divisions: those that have won the title and those that haven't. In that group you have:
Pat Summit (tenn)
Geno Auriemma (Uconn)
Tara VanDerveer (Stanford)
Muffet McGraw (ND)
Kim Mulkey (Baylor)

If you asked for the best women's coaches out there, this is a pretty encompassing list. It becomes even more so when you take coaches that have gotten to the final 4 (G, Ceeeeee vivian stringer) Is it a perfect division? Likely not, but its a pretty darn good who's who.

Are we lucky to have Coach P? Probably. Are there at least half a dozen other coaches I'd rather have right now? Probably.

I think she grows each year, and I think its an exciting time for her to have the talent she does. It'll be interesting to see.

But to put things in perspective, lets look at the duke women in games against what I would consider to be elite teams each year (yeah pretty subjective and unlikely to be wholly objective, but i'll try...might be better to do record against teams who went to the final four that year....but thats too much work...and i think that's what this comes to anyway)
2011-2012: losses to uconn and ND
2010-2011: 2 losses to uconn win over texas AM (elite 8)
2009-2010: losses to baylor uconn and stanford (elite 8)
2008-2009: win over stanford (second round)

that puts us at 2-7 and several of them have not been close. Now, perhaps I'm being unfair, but since P has been here, as you said, duke has never been "the team to beat."

As I said, these next years should be very exciting for duke womens basketball fans, and the team is super talented and young. Duke has a chance to be one of those elite teams. I think the kids on the team are great....especially Elizabeth (my love for pride and prejudice wants me to call her "lizzy" but that might be a bit to familiar...) and chelsea. Phenomenal players. The onus is on Coach P to put them in a system where they can win against the other elite teams in the country.

killerleft
03-01-2012, 11:14 PM
Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Yet you shrug off Coach McCallie's winning ways as some natural course of events that she couldn't avoid. "Success" is something she hasn't managed yet.

So be it. She survived the almost poisonous welcome some gave her because she wasn't Coach G. She's obviously still having to measure up, chasing that ghost. I, too, would love to see that national title (lol). But my definition of success allows me to say that Coach P has already done a great job. And we should all have realistic expectations that we'll soon be making serious runs at that title.

msdukie
03-01-2012, 11:24 PM
Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Yet you shrug off Coach McCallie's winning ways as some natural course of events that she couldn't avoid. "Success" is something she hasn't managed yet.

So be it. She survived the almost poisonous welcome some gave her because she wasn't Coach G. She's obviously still having to measure up, chasing that ghost. I, too, would love to see that national title (lol). But my definition of success allows me to say that Coach P has already done a great job. And we should all have realistic expectations that we'll soon be making serious runs at that title.

Just recall that when she was hired, we were repeatedly force fed that she was hired to get us to that last step and win titles. That hasn't happened yet. And certainly before this year, the offense was offensive. This year is obviously much better, but she gets an incomplete. And it isn't just "poisonous Duke fans" numerous national basketball commentators have severely questioned her coaching, especially on the offensive end, each season.

Again, this year has been much better, let's hope the problems resolve themselves.

Mike Corey
03-01-2012, 11:32 PM
And to think, Coach P was not Alleva's first choice.

Keep it up, Coach P and Blue Devils!

Kedsy
03-01-2012, 11:36 PM
If you asked for the best women's coaches out there, this is a pretty encompassing list. It becomes even more so when you take coaches that have gotten to the final 4 (G, Ceeeeee vivian stringer) Is it a perfect division? Likely not, but its a pretty darn good who's who.

Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

uh_no
03-01-2012, 11:58 PM
Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

Did not realize that. thanks for correcting me. I think the overall point still stands though, that she needs to take this horde of talent she's amassing and become one of THE teams....they're knocking on the door...that's for sure....but have to get over the hump.

loran16
03-01-2012, 11:59 PM
Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Yet you shrug off Coach McCallie's winning ways as some natural course of events that she couldn't avoid. "Success" is something she hasn't managed yet.

So be it. She survived the almost poisonous welcome some gave her because she wasn't Coach G. She's obviously still having to measure up, chasing that ghost. I, too, would love to see that national title (lol). But my definition of success allows me to say that Coach P has already done a great job. And we should all have realistic expectations that we'll soon be making serious runs at that title.

Can you imagine the expectations that are going to be on K's successor? Kind of insane. I think the turnover might be bumpy at first, but will work out, personally. And that will guide my expectations. However, I won't call a successor a success just because Duke doesn't fall very far without K....I'll wait to see how the successor does in a few years after he's settled in.

Coach P HAS settled in - and we know she's not a disaster. But we don't know she's a success. That's a different story. Now she's got all her recruits on the team and the team she built....we should EXPECT success to come about. Is a F4 this season possible? Sure...depends upon our draw really (It's likely not happening mind you).

But until she gets that success, let's not go so far as to call us LUCKY that we wound up with her. That's going too far.

(Do I think she'll do it? I like to think that she will - I think E-Will will lead us eventually to the promised land. But she hasn't yet).

(Note a F4 on MSU doesn't change this argument)

uh_no
03-02-2012, 12:04 AM
Can you imagine the expectations that are going to be on K's successor? Kind of insane. I think the turnover might be bumpy at first, but will work out, personally. And that will guide my expectations. However, I won't call a successor a success just because Duke doesn't fall very far without K....I'll wait to see how the successor does in a few years after he's settled in.

Coach P HAS settled in - and we know she's not a disaster. But we don't know she's a success. That's a different story. Now she's got all her recruits on the team and the team she built....we should EXPECT success to come about. Is a F4 this season possible? Sure...depends upon our draw really (It's likely not happening mind you).

But until she gets that success, let's not go so far as to call us LUCKY that we wound up with her. That's going too far.

(Do I think she'll do it? I like to think that she will - I think E-Will will lead us eventually to the promised land. But she hasn't yet).

(Note a F4 on MSU doesn't change this argument)

Well, barring anything crazy, the four #1 seeds are likely to be Baylor, ND, Stanford and Uconn. Yes duke only lost by a shot to ND, but IMO, ND is playing a ton better than they were earlier in the year. Uconn has gone the other direction, and they are very hot and cold in their offense. I think Duke's best shot is in uconn's bracket and beating them when they have one of their off nights. I'd say duke has the best chance out of the teams that are not the 4 listed above....which makes sense as the #5 team....but i'm not sure that makes it not likely.

loran16
03-02-2012, 12:08 AM
Well, barring anything crazy, the four #1 seeds are likely to be Baylor, ND, Stanford and Uconn. Yes duke only lost by a shot to ND, but IMO, ND is playing a ton better than they were earlier in the year. Uconn has gone the other direction, and they are very hot and cold in their offense. I think Duke's best shot is in uconn's bracket and beating them when they have one of their off nights. I'd say duke has the best chance out of the teams that are not the 4 listed above....which makes sense as the #5 team....but i'm not sure that makes it not likely.

Well, I'd say Duke might have a shot against anyone who ISN'T Baylor. (Though I haven't followed Stanford this year). As in a repeat of what happened last year.

Anyhow to add to my previous statements, I'm not disappointed with the Coach P hire. I just wouldn't consider us LUCKY to have hired her. There's a middle ground there that I'm in.

uh_no
03-02-2012, 12:59 AM
Well, I'd say Duke might have a shot against anyone who ISN'T Baylor. (Though I haven't followed Stanford this year). As in a repeat of what happened last year.


If ND plays in any way close to the way they played against Uconn last week, i'm not sure anyone in the country can beat them. Not even baylor......then again they did that to uconn in the final four last year and promptly lost to texas a&m.....so who knows. Baylor is a very simple team, and I think EW would have a much better chance against Griner with a year of experience under her belt....but she's just an absolute monster....and I don't think there's anyone on Duke that can match Odyssey Sims.

The only relevant game Stanford has had is a 10 point loss to Uconn. They've had an incredibly weak schedule. I take it back, I think duke would beat stanford....I'd put money on it. They haven't played a ranked team since 12/20. Unfortunately Duke will be the top #2 seed so will end up in raleigh almost 100% guaranteed, and notre dame will almost assuredly be the #1 seed (if duke makes a 1 seed though over uconn, they'll be in rhode island, and if its instead of ND, they'll stay here in raleigh).....

Anyway, the chances of getting stanford are almost 0....we'd have to sink to the number 8 overall....we could lose our game tomorrow and still not drop to 8 overall. We could however lose out to marland and end up the 6 overall....and end up in rhode island with uconn...or if uconn blew it and maryland was the #1, uconn would be the 2 seed in rhode island and duke would be the 2 with ND in raleigh.....

or if we're the 7 seed we'll go to fresno......but assuming all 3 of the ACC teams make the semis tomorrow, one of miami and maryland will lose, so even if we lose saturday, the worst we could probably do is the #6 overall

I'm kind of ranting, but its very very likely that we'll get uconn or ND as our #1 and its a toss up which. We just need to take care of business and win tomorrow

kingboozer
03-02-2012, 01:44 AM
We are very lucky to have Coach P and she done a fantastic job with the women's program here. I have no doubt in my mind she will win a national title(s) here, no doubt.

OldPhiKap
03-02-2012, 07:15 AM
Coach P is an upper echelon coach and a very good fit at Duke. Congratulations on a great year so far, and best of luck in the NCAA's.

I am hopeful that she will bring us a title, but frankly do not measure "how lucky we are to have her" by it. Harvard is lucky to have Tommy Amaker, but I doubt they're going to win a national title. In women's basketball, several schools have absolutely dominated the sport. I think our goal is to become a team that is considered on par with them moving forward, and the rest will shake itself out.

Glad you're here, Coach.

killerleft
03-02-2012, 09:09 AM
Just recall that when she was hired, we were repeatedly force fed that she was hired to get us to that last step and win titles. That hasn't happened yet. And certainly before this year, the offense was offensive. This year is obviously much better, but she gets an incomplete. And it isn't just "poisonous Duke fans" numerous national basketball commentators have severely questioned her coaching, especially on the offensive end, each season.

Again, this year has been much better, let's hope the problems resolve themselves.

Not national basketball commentators! And who force fed to you anything? What was supposed to be said? Transitions are difficult and we'll probably have a rocky road for a while?

The offense HAS been offensive, I'll give you that. We have had some, uh, bucket-avoiding shooters in the past. That makes whatever offensive strategy one uses look bad.

The national commentators have their own reasons for trashing Coach P. Most of them played for the upper echelon programs. Who knows, maybe that's their way of protecting their young. But, as I said a couple posts ago, if the coach who follows Coach K can repeat Joanne McCallie's success after following a legend (albeit a lesser one, you'd have thought the Queen died when she left), we will be EXTREMELY lucky. And, being a glass-half-full type of guy, I think we'll be happy a few years from now.

It is also important that we (all Duke fans) lend support rather than not to a coach who has won two of the last three ACC Coach of the Year awards. Let's hope that is not a problem that gets resolved.

Wander
03-02-2012, 10:13 AM
Anyhow to add to my previous statements, I'm not disappointed with the Coach P hire. I just wouldn't consider us LUCKY to have hired her. There's a middle ground there that I'm in.

I agree with this. The only things I'll add to the discussion are a reminder at how different women's college basketball is from men's (it's easier to keep your status as a top team because of the lack of competition), and that at least some of the initial bad feelings about Coach P came from the girls themselves. That hardly counts as screeching unreasonable fans. But yes, Coach P is certainly doing a good job these days.

SupaDave
03-02-2012, 11:59 AM
Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Really? Duke doesn't have any successful coaches in their family tree?

Synder is a Lakers Asst. Coach.
Brey at Notre Dame.
Dawkins at Stanford having to rebuild (conference play has been up and down)
Capel - back at Duke
Collins - born to coach
Wojo - he's gonna be around a while
Amaker - Wait - isn't this guy responsible for righting the ship at Michigan and getting HARVARD ranked?
Brickey - yep - he coaches too
And then there was this kid named Greg Paulus...
Hold up - hold up - hold up! This guy named Hurley just started coaching too. Wait - so did a guy named Laettner...

And honestly I'm pretty sure I'm leaving someone out...

OldPhiKap
03-02-2012, 12:02 PM
Really? Duke doesn't have any successful coaches in their family tree?

Synder is a Lakers Asst. Coach.
Brey at Notre Dame.
Dawkins at Stanford having to rebuild (conference play has been up and down)
Capel - back at Duke
Collins - born to coach
Wojo - he's gonna be around a while
Amaker - Wait - isn't this guy responsible for righting the ship at Michigan and getting HARVARD ranked?
Brickey - yep - he coaches too
And then there was this kid named Greg Paulus...
Hold up - hold up - hold up! This guy named Hurley just started coaching too. Wait - so did a guy named Laettner...

And honestly I'm pretty sure I'm leaving someone out...

David Henderson -- was at Delaware for a long time, not sure now.
Timmy O'Toole -- was a Fairfiled for a long time, not sure now.

msdukie
03-02-2012, 12:29 PM
When K leaves, the situation will be different. Duke wont be replacing their coach because the coach that built the program into a power couldn't stand working for the AD anymore.

And it would be wise to leave K's successor alone for 5 years and see what happens, barring serious off court issues.

CameronBornAndBred
03-02-2012, 12:42 PM
Really? Duke doesn't have any successful coaches in their family tree?

Synder is a Lakers Asst. Coach.
Brey at Notre Dame.
Dawkins at Stanford having to rebuild (conference play has been up and down)
Capel - back at Duke
Collins - born to coach
Wojo - he's gonna be around a while
Amaker - Wait - isn't this guy responsible for righting the ship at Michigan and getting HARVARD ranked?
Brickey - yep - he coaches too
And then there was this kid named Greg Paulus...
Hold up - hold up - hold up! This guy named Hurley just started coaching too. Wait - so did a guy named Laettner...

And honestly I'm pretty sure I'm leaving someone out...
I am pretty sure KL knows there is a rich family tree at Duke. I believe also though that he pointed out that none of them have had the success that Roy did before taking over at UNC. While he didn't win the championship, he went to the FF four times with Kansas.
None of K's group that you have listed have even been once. Capel lost in the Elite 8, that's as far as he's made it. (With Ok.) Snyder lost in the Elite 8, that was his highest acheivment too. Brey made it once to the Sweet Sixteen. (2003) Amaker never made the NCAA's with Michigan. Dawkins has not made the NCAA's.

David
03-02-2012, 01:05 PM
I am pretty sure KL knows there is a rich family tree at Duke. I believe also though that he pointed out that none of them have had the success that Roy did before taking over at UNC. While he didn't win the championship, he went to the FF four times with Kansas.
None of K's group that you have listed have even been once. Capel lost in the Elite 8, that's as far as he's made it. (With Ok.) Snyder lost in the Elite 8, that was his highest acheivment too. Brey made it once to the Sweet Sixteen. (2003) Amaker never made the NCAA's with Michigan. Dawkins has not made the NCAA's.

Minor edit: Amaker did lead Seton Hall to the Sweet 16 in 99-00 season. Hopefully, he will get some further tourney experience this year with Harvard!

SupaDave
03-02-2012, 02:39 PM
I am pretty sure KL knows there is a rich family tree at Duke. I believe also though that he pointed out that none of them have had the success that Roy did before taking over at UNC. While he didn't win the championship, he went to the FF four times with Kansas.
None of K's group that you have listed have even been once. Capel lost in the Elite 8, that's as far as he's made it. (With Ok.) Snyder lost in the Elite 8, that was his highest acheivment too. Brey made it once to the Sweet Sixteen. (2003) Amaker never made the NCAA's with Michigan. Dawkins has not made the NCAA's.

This doesn't take into account that Williams took over a Kansas team FRESH off of a National Championship - and the fact that he was a UNC assistant prior to his stint at Kansas where he actually took over for a UNC Alum, Larry Brown (which wasn't a stretch b/c UNC and Kansas do have quite the history together).

CameronBornAndBred
03-02-2012, 02:54 PM
This doesn't take into account that Williams took over a Kansas team FRESH off of a National Championship - and the fact that he was a UNC assistant prior to his stint at Kansas where he actually took over for a UNC Alum, Larry Brown (which wasn't a stretch b/c UNC and Kansas do have quite the history together).
In defending Roy I filled my "being nice to the baby blues" quota for this decade, so I'm not going any further with it.
But I still think it is highly remarkable that Duke got as fortunate as we did with P, and that we've remained the high caliber team that we've become accustomed to. I really, really hope we beat Miami or the Hurricanes flat out don't make it to Sunday so we get to play our regional in Raleigh. As UCONN proved in Cameron, home court advantage is not given as a victory...but it sure would help against ND. Coach P has had Duke in the Elite 8 the last two years, and we let our best shot slip away when we lost to Baylor in 2010. (Handed that victory to them, even...bleah.) There was no way we were going to beat UCONN last year. This year, being down to 8 players, IF we make it back to the Elite 8 we're going to need every advantage we can get, including a home court crowd. This team has the attitude to do it, and I think we have the coaching. That being said, I'm licking my chops at the thought of next year with everyone back and healthy.

killerleft
03-02-2012, 03:33 PM
I am pretty sure KL knows there is a rich family tree at Duke. I believe also though that he pointed out that none of them have had the success that Roy did before taking over at UNC. While he didn't win the championship, he went to the FF four times with Kansas.
None of K's group that you have listed have even been once. Capel lost in the Elite 8, that's as far as he's made it. (With Ok.) Snyder lost in the Elite 8, that was his highest acheivment too. Brey made it once to the Sweet Sixteen. (2003) Amaker never made the NCAA's with Michigan. Dawkins has not made the NCAA's.

This is what I meant, thanks. I've seen all of these guys play (except Brey) in person, and have watched with interest as they have gone into coaching. Nothing would make me happier than to see one of them succeed wildly at Duke. And it can happen. But we do not have anybody in the pipeline with the experience and success that Roy had before coming to UNC. And HE didn't even want to be the first coach after Dean. Or the second. My main point is this: There are plenty of people who aren't on board with a women's coach who has been very successful at keeping Duke competitive on a national level. She faced opposition from the fans. She faced opposition from some of the players. She has made mistakes, but overall, Joanne McCallie has done a great job, considering the obstacles. People can say, "Aw, it's Duke, she OUGHTA win.", but that is far from the truth. It has taken a lot of hard work. And if you think Duke will just plug in a new men's coach and there'll be no problems? Well, I hope you're right. But it might be harder to replace the best college basketball coach ever born than you might think. Then again, I wouldn't bet against Coach K having our backs on the new hire, too.:) But every stumble will be accompanied by enough howls of protest that the job won't be easy. Get on board with Ms. McCallie. Call it the "practice" for the next men's coach.

Double DD
03-02-2012, 03:53 PM
This doesn't take into account that Williams took over a Kansas team FRESH off of a National Championship - and the fact that he was a UNC assistant prior to his stint at Kansas where he actually took over for a UNC Alum, Larry Brown (which wasn't a stretch b/c UNC and Kansas do have quite the history together).

I don't see how that lessens the fact that Williams is much more successful than anyone on K's tree. Brown kindly left the team in probation for Williams' first season, and only one player from that championship squad was left when they faced Duke in the final.

msdukie
03-02-2012, 05:15 PM
Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

Discuss

uh_no
03-02-2012, 05:30 PM
Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

Discuss

I don't think its fair to condemn her based on a single game, but its certainly fair to say that the other elite teams don't usually lose like this in their conference tournaments. The duke women and Coach P aren't there yet. Uconn lost to st johns a couple weeks ago. ND lost to west virginia. Losses happen. NCSU is 5-11 in conference, though. That's pretty bad relative to duke. If duke wants to get up to the pantheon of women's basketball, they can't lose these games.

Again, I think the next 2-3 years will be critical if coach P wants to inarguably establish herself as one of the top coaches in the game.

CameronBornAndBred
03-02-2012, 06:58 PM
Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

Discuss
We also won the regular season this year. I didn't get to watch the game but kudos to State for the victory. I hardly think one game is worth questioning the job that Coach P has done at Duke.

SupaDave
03-02-2012, 07:02 PM
We also won the regular season this year. I didn't get to watch the game but kudos to State for the victory. I hardly think one game is worth questioning the job that Coach P has done at Duke.

Pretty much sets the tone for Maryland to win the tourney and with the wacky women's bracketing we could see a rematch of the teams.

Duke women should see the Sweet 16.

This was a great year for Coach P but next year looks to be the real wonder of her work.

msdukie
03-02-2012, 07:24 PM
I don't think its fair to condemn her based on a single game, but its certainly fair to say that the other elite teams don't usually lose like this in their conference tournaments. The duke women and Coach P aren't there yet. Uconn lost to st johns a couple weeks ago. ND lost to west virginia. Losses happen. NCSU is 5-11 in conference, though. That's pretty bad relative to duke. If duke wants to get up to the pantheon of women's basketball, they can't lose these games.

Again, I think the next 2-3 years will be critical if coach P wants to inarguably establish herself as one of the top coaches in the game.

There is far more evidence than a single game. And Duke WAS there under G, at the top, beating championship teams, with the only difference being that Duke couldn't win the last game. The current regime isn't at that level. State had to play yesterday. If Duke got upset by a low seed in the semis (see State - 2007), that is a lot different than a #1 being knocked off by a #9. In fact, that's never happened in the Women's ACC Tournament. St. John's and West Virginia are also far better than this State team.

Duvall
03-02-2012, 07:55 PM
Duke women should see the Sweet 16.

Why? Pretty sure Duke will have to beat a team much better than NC State to get to the Sweet 16. Maybe two teams.

77devil
03-02-2012, 08:21 PM
And to think, Coach P was not Alleva's first choice.

This alone raises her stock a few points. I wonder if Coach G looks back forlornly at what might have been with Kevin White in charge? Possibly not; Austin's a great spot.


Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

So did Paul Hewitt. Just goes to show what some luck and recruiting success can produce for one season. Not much of a marker in my opinion. If the bar is likely hood of winning a NC, I think Coach P comes up short based on her body of work

DukeBlueNikeShox
03-02-2012, 10:36 PM
Geno applied for the Duke job; however, Duke chose Goestenkors. The advantage that Coach P had over other applicants was that she has a "traditional family"...

SupaDave
03-02-2012, 10:46 PM
Why? Pretty sure Duke will have to beat a team much better than NC State to get to the Sweet 16. Maybe two teams.

This Duke team should be a #2 seed. Do you realize the kinda team they play in the first round? There's much less parity in women's bball...

Duvall
03-02-2012, 10:50 PM
This Duke team should be a #2 seed. Do you realize the kinda team they play in the first round? There's much less parity in women's bball...

Duke *may* be a #2 seed. They can't take anything for granted now.

And I didn't say I thought Duke would be playing a good team, I said I thought they might end up playing a team better than N.C. State. Big difference.

jv001
03-02-2012, 10:55 PM
Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

Discuss

No, I just congratulate the NC State coach that set up a very good defense on Williams today. We had too many turnovers and without Williams we couldn't buy a rebound at the end. GoDuke!

miramar
03-02-2012, 11:11 PM
1) There was some criticism of Coach G at the beginning of this post because of her results at Texas, which is certainly fair as far as it goes. Nevertheless, she was a perfect fit at Duke and left the program in great shape, so I would prefer to be grateful rather than critical in her case. If she knew then what she knows now...

2) John Wooden wasn't UCLA's first choice IIRC, and they certainly weren't his first choice either (he wanted to go to Minnesota, but the phone lines were down because of a storm and they didn't make an offer in time). So I wouldn't worry about who's on first, as it were.

3) Lest we forget, when Duke hired Coach P, the general idea was that she should at least maintain Duke as one of the top three or four women's programs in the country (or maybe the best program that never won a championship). Many thought that if she could get to the Final Four with Michigan State's talent, she should be able to do that and more at Duke. That hasn't happened, especially because of poor shooting and too many turnovers in big games, although this year things have improved dramatically (at least until the 22 turnovers in each of the last two games).

I don't think that we expected that we would be waiting for a return to the Final Four five years later, so I would say that the record is mixed but improving. Unless Duke WBB does return to the Final Four, I would say that we will continue to have these conversations.

Raleighfan
03-02-2012, 11:13 PM
Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

Discuss

As I've heard Coach K say many times, luck plays a part in these games and today State had more of it than did Duke. Just my opinion here....I think Kellie Harper really had her team believing that Yes, They Could Beat #1 if they had the will and passion to do so. And so they did.

SupaDave
03-03-2012, 12:08 AM
Duke *may* be a #2 seed. They can't take anything for granted now.

And I didn't say I thought Duke would be playing a good team, I said I thought they might end up playing a team better than N.C. State. Big difference.

I have to agree with this. Women's basketball is definitely a place where it's quite even after the first 15 or so teams. Really the first 5-10 of them.

uh_no
03-03-2012, 12:30 AM
Geno applied for the Duke job; however, Duke chose Goestenkors. The advantage that Coach P had over other applicants was that she has a "traditional family"...

fun tidbit: not that this will ever happen, but geno has said the duke men's coaching job is one of the only positions for which he would leave the uconn women.

Kedsy
03-03-2012, 12:53 AM
Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

In my opinion, "today's events" (whatever today that happens to be) should almost never be a valid basis for a condemnation of a coach's work. The idea that one post-season loss should overshadow a spectacular regular season is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the idea that a coach who hasn't gotten her team to the Final Four during her first four seasons is therefore not doing a good job.

Think about it: P's first five years have looked a heck of a lot better than K's first five years.

OZ
03-03-2012, 01:00 AM
I don't think that we expected that we would be waiting for a return to the Final Four five years later, so I would say that the record is mixed but improving. Unless Duke WBB does return to the Final Four, I would say that we will continue to have these conversations.


Well, "these conversations" were certainly had concerning two other questionable coaches... Coach K being one of them.
When I entered Duke, one of the things in which we took a lot of pleasure was that over in Chapel Hill they had burned their basketball coach in effigy; someone by the name of Dean Smith.

If we have these conversations about Coach P, at least she will be in good company.

duke09hms
03-03-2012, 01:18 AM
In my opinion, "today's events" (whatever today that happens to be) should almost never be a valid basis for a condemnation of a coach's work. The idea that one post-season loss should overshadow a spectacular regular season is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the idea that a coach who hasn't gotten her team to the Final Four during her first four seasons is therefore not doing a good job.

Think about it: P's first five years have looked a heck of a lot better than K's first five years.

K wasn't immediately succeeding a great coach who had built Duke to the verge of elite status and taking us to Final Fours/#1 rankings, and K wasn't brought in explicitly to win titles.

McCallie was. She's done a great job here at Duke, but when you look at what she was brought here to do, the jury is still out. Duke under McCallie SO FAR has not yet reached the levels we did under Goestenkors. If we don't win a title before this year's extremely talented nucleus graduates or at the very least get to a Final Four, there may be serious talks in a couple years as to whether we downgraded in head coaches.

throatybeard
03-03-2012, 01:19 AM
fun tidbit: not that this will ever happen, but geno has said the duke men's coaching job is one of the only positions for which he would leave the uconn women.

Interesting. But in the "not that this will ever happen" vein, he's only seven years younger than Krzyzewski. So by the time Krzyzewski steps down, let's say in seven years, Geno is seven years older...

You want to see some gender trouble? You shoulda seen how threatened some males in this neck of the woods got when I suggested on [the old board software on] old DBR that Goestenkors might be a good candidate to succeed Krzyzewski. Pat Summitt was persona non grata for a while after that too.

Kedsy
03-03-2012, 01:34 AM
K wasn't immediately succeeding a great coach who had built Duke to the verge of elite status and taking us to Final Fours/#1 rankings, and K wasn't brought in explicitly to win titles.

Actually, he kind of was. K succeeded a very popular coach who in the previous three seasons had been to a Final Four and an Elite Eight, and had been ranked #1 in the country at some point during each of the two seasons prior to K's arrival. And I'd argue Bill Foster was perceived to have brought Duke "to the verge of elite status," in addition to a Final Four and the #1 rankings.

Going into K's first year, Duke had lost its starting PG and C, but we returned a big star in Gene Banks along with a pretty solid supporting cast. Coach K made the NIT that first season. Going into P's first year, Duke had also lost its starting PG and C (and two best players, which was not true in K's case). Coach P made the NCAA tourney and got to the Sweet 16.

I think there are more parallels between K's beginning and P's beginning than you're admitting, except P performed better than K in her first five years. After that, obviously we don't know yet. K made the Final Four his 6th season and then 6 of the next 8 years, including two national championships. I'd be shocked if P has similar success (although I wouldn't be surprised at all to see P make the Final Four in her 6th season at Duke, same as K), but I don't think she has to have that kind of success to be considered a great hire and great fit for Duke.

OZ
03-03-2012, 01:39 AM
"duke09hms;556379]K wasn't immediately succeeding a great coach who had built Duke to the verge of elite status and taking us to Final Fours"

That may be debatable.
In 1974 Duke brought in Bill Foster to give life to a lifeless program. In six years, he took Duke to the NCAA tournament three straight years. In one of those trips, we lost to Kentucky in the finals (I was there!)

If it is legal here, I would like to offer a quote from Johnny Moore while commenting on Coach K's 903 win.

“Not without what Bill built. And Mike has talked to Bill about that. Without showing people that they could win, that we could be good, that we could be in a Final Four — when (Krzyzewski) recruited that famous (Johnny) Dawkins class, it was only five years removed from us going to the Final Four. Kids had seen that you could be successful at Duke.”

77devil
03-03-2012, 07:24 AM
Think about it: P's first five years have looked a heck of a lot better than K's first five years.

You can't be serious making such a comparison? Coach P inherited one of the top programs in the nation, and overall ACC league strength in women's basketball is nothing remotely similar to the mens' programs against which K had to compete in the early 80's. I could keep going. The differences are stark.

Devilsfan
03-03-2012, 07:49 AM
Agreed. G set the stage. What is P's tournament record? Final Fours? No comparison!

77devil
03-03-2012, 08:10 AM
Actually, he kind of was. K succeeded a very popular coach who in the previous three seasons had been to a Final Four and an Elite Eight, and had been ranked #1 in the country at some point during each of the two seasons prior to K's arrival. And I'd argue Bill Foster was perceived to have brought Duke "to the verge of elite status," in addition to a Final Four and the #1 rankings.

Going into K's first year, Duke had lost its starting PG and C, but we returned a big star in Gene Banks along with a pretty solid supporting cast. Coach K made the NIT that first season. Going into P's first year, Duke had also lost its starting PG and C (and two best players, which was not true in K's case). Coach P made the NCAA tourney and got to the Sweet 16.

I think there are more parallels between K's beginning and P's beginning than you're admitting, except P performed better than K in her first five years. After that, obviously we don't know yet. K made the Final Four his 6th season and then 6 of the next 8 years, including two national championships. I'd be shocked if P has similar success (although I wouldn't be surprised at all to see P make the Final Four in her 6th season at Duke, same as K), but I don't think she has to have that kind of success to be considered a great hire and great fit for Duke.


Duke was hardly on the verge of elite status. In fact, K inherited a program that was merely competitive at 7-7 in the ACC in Foster's last season with a team that started 4 of the top 6 players from the NC runner ups plus elite recruit Vince Taylor. See, Foster was always better at building a program than sustaining it. We owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for bringing the program back from the depths, but he knew the cupboard was bare when SC called.

Besides Dennard and Taylor, who is this solid supporting cast you refer to? The talent restocking required and competitive environment that Coach K stepped into was much more difficult than Coach P.

orrnot
03-03-2012, 09:39 AM
Agreed. G set the stage. What is P's tournament record? Final Fours? No comparison!

While I agree that G set a stage that P has yet to ascend to, it might be worth remembering that G never quite reached her own next level either. And it wasn't just the losing but the utterly devastating way in which our teams so often seemed out of their element at the most critical times. Amazing victories and astonishing defeats were matched in her regime. Frankly, I wished she had more time here, and at times I still see that kind of losing mindset in P's talented teams, but I have a lot of respect for the solid progress P has made, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of what our teams do under her guidance.
Had G stuck around up to today, the "How lucky..." question might be asked of her. A championship would probably seal the answer, but if she'd done what we've asked of P--match the achievements of '99-'07, I think we'd want her gone. I reckon P has a couple of more years to win us over, but she's got to bring home the big one to do it.

Kedsy
03-03-2012, 11:09 PM
You can't be serious making such a comparison? Coach P inherited one of the top programs in the nation, and overall ACC league strength in women's basketball is nothing remotely similar to the mens' programs against which K had to compete in the early 80's.

Well, I'll respond by saying, are you kidding? The ACC has been one of the toughest conferences in all of women's basketball, and Duke under Coach P has by-and-large owned the conference. K couldn't say anything close to that his first 5 years.


Duke was hardly on the verge of elite status. In fact, K inherited a program that was merely competitive at 7-7 in the ACC in Foster's last season with a team that started 4 of the top 6 players from the NC runner ups plus elite recruit Vince Taylor.

In 1977-78, Duke was ACC champion and the national runner up under Foster. In 1978-79, we were the pre-season #1 in the country (and held the top spot for 9 weeks), tied for the ACC regular season championship, and made the ACC tournament final. In 1979-80, we were #1 in the country for 8 weeks, won the ACC championship, and made the Elite Eight. To me, those three years sound like a team on the verge of elite status.


Besides Dennard and Taylor, who is this solid supporting cast you refer to?

Coming out of high school, Tom Emma was considered one of the best talents ever to come out of Long Island. Chip Engelland became one of the best shooters and scorers in the ACC. Add those two to Dennard and Taylor and I'd say it's a pretty solid supporting cast for our star, Gene Banks.

msdukie
03-03-2012, 11:18 PM
At some point, most of the people in this thread will realize that NCAA Men's Basketball and NCAA Women's Basketball live in two different worlds.

And P was brought here to win a championship, nothing less.

Kedsy
03-03-2012, 11:21 PM
And P was brought here to win a championship, nothing less.

You mean, if the administration hadn't wanted to win a championship, they would have hired someone else?

uh_no
03-03-2012, 11:32 PM
Well, I'll respond by saying, are you kidding? The ACC has been one of the toughest conferences in all of women's basketball, and Duke under Coach P has by-and-large owned the conference. K couldn't say anything close to that his first 5 years.


I would like to dispute the statement that the ACC is one of the toughest conferences. LIsted below are the final 4 teams since P came to duke

2011: uconn ND stanford Texas A&m
2010: uconn baylor stanford oklahoma
2009: uconn louisville stanford oklahoma
2008: uconn stanford tennessee lsu

Big east: 6
SEC:2
Big 12: 3
Pac 10: 4
ACC: 0


Is the ACC a joke? certainly not. BUt I think its silly to pretend that quality of the ACC has rivaled that of the SEC, Big 12 and Big east the past several years.

Since final four is a bit selecitve, here are the sweet 16 numbers, a little bit more representative, i think

big east 16
sec 10
big 12 13
acc 8

I believe these two numbers show in a way that the ACC is lagging in both top level teams (final fours) and overall depth (fewer sweet 16s). Since the Women's tournament is much more predictable than the mens, we can accept how teams compete in it as more representative of their actual ability as compared to the mens tournament (where the top teams can all lose and the best team usually doesn't win)

If I were to go back and look at numbers of teams from each conference in teh final AP ranking, I think I would see the same trend, with the ACC lagging behind.

So again, the ACC is a fine league, but it is in the second tier of the bcs leagues since P has been here.

Kedsy
03-04-2012, 12:29 AM
If I were to go back and look at numbers of teams from each conference in teh final AP ranking, I think I would see the same trend, with the ACC lagging behind.

Well, I did look at the final AP rankings, which personally I think is a better indicator of league strength than NCAAT performance, and I don't think we see the same trend.

I only analyzed the top 15, which I admit is arbitrary, but I didn't feel like spending the time on the rest, especially considering the general contention that women's basketball is so top heavy that only the first 10 or 15 teams matter:

ACC: 17 teams (avg of 3.4 teams per year)
Big East: 17 teams (3.4)
Big 12: 14 teams (2.8)
SEC: 8 teams (1.6)
PAC 10: 8 teams (1.6)
Big 10: 5 teams (1.0)
mid-major: 6 teams (1.2)

To me, that seems like the ACC is one of the toughest conferences, although as you point out, none of those highly ranked teams have made the Final Four during those years. I guess it depends on your definition of tough.

JG Nothing
03-04-2012, 12:39 AM
You mean, if the administration hadn't wanted to win a championship, they would have hired someone else?

I cannot speak for msdukie. However, Alleva said at McCallie's introduction that she was hired specifically to take Duke to the "next level." Alleva explicitly set the bar at a national championship. Maybe that is not fair to McCallie, but that is how she was presented.

uh_no
03-04-2012, 12:46 AM
Well, I did look at the final AP rankings, which personally I think is a better indicator of league strength than NCAAT performance, and I don't think we see the same trend.

I only analyzed the top 15, which I admit is arbitrary, but I didn't feel like spending the time on the rest, especially considering the general contention that women's basketball is so top heavy that only the first 10 or 15 teams matter:

ACC: 17 teams (avg of 3.4 teams per year)
Big East: 17 teams (3.4)
Big 12: 14 teams (2.8)
SEC: 8 teams (1.6)
PAC 10: 8 teams (1.6)
Big 10: 5 teams (1.0)
mid-major: 6 teams (1.2)

To me, that seems like the ACC is one of the toughest conferences, although as you point out, none of those highly ranked teams have made the Final Four during those years. I guess it depends on your definition of tough.

Thanks for doing that. It is more impressive that the ACC has fewer teams than the big east.

A lot of the reason for the tournament explanation is the top teams. Big east has uconn, Big 12 has oklahoma, and now baylor. Sec had tennessee....but they have dropped off....and the Pac 10 has stanford....

BUt i didn't realize the ACC has had so many ranked teams. I think top 15 is a fine cutoff. You're right though, it does come down to being top heavy why there is that discrepancy....and in the end there's no good way to compare conferences....

ANyway, Duke needs to continue scheduling the top teams, but they need to get some wins against them....including in the tournament....its what it comes down to. At some level its unfair to compare Duke to Uconn and thelike since the bar is very very high, but I think that is the kind of success that P and the team/dept want, and with those success conditions, they can't be considered to be there yet.

Kedsy
03-04-2012, 01:29 AM
I cannot speak for msdukie. However, Alleva said at McCallie's introduction that she was hired specifically to take Duke to the "next level." Alleva explicitly set the bar at a national championship. Maybe that is not fair to McCallie, but that is how she was presented.

Our old coach quit. We had to hire someone. Some people were blaming Alleva for not doing whatever it took to keep G. What did you expect him to say?

throatybeard
03-04-2012, 01:56 AM
Our old coach quit. We had to hire someone. Some people were blaming Alleva for not doing whatever it took to keep G. What did you expect him to say?

Exactly. People can jaw as much as they want to about how we haven't won an national championship, or how what has happened 2008- isn't as awesome as what Auriemma has done. It's about opportunity cost. You lose, say, the 6th best coach in the game, under these other NC winning coaches. Just to keep the program at the level it was under G is amazing.

CameronBornAndBred
03-04-2012, 09:32 AM
Well, I did look at the final AP rankings, which personally I think is a better indicator of league strength than NCAAT performance, and I don't think we see the same trend.

I only analyzed the top 15, which I admit is arbitrary, but I didn't feel like spending the time on the rest, especially considering the general contention that women's basketball is so top heavy that only the first 10 or 15 teams matter:

ACC: 17 teams (avg of 3.4 teams per year)
Big East: 17 teams (3.4)
Big 12: 14 teams (2.8)
SEC: 8 teams (1.6)
PAC 10: 8 teams (1.6)
Big 10: 5 teams (1.0)
mid-major: 6 teams (1.2)

To me, that seems like the ACC is one of the toughest conferences, although as you point out, none of those highly ranked teams have made the Final Four during those years. I guess it depends on your definition of tough.
Agreed.
Year in and out take a look at the ACC in the regular season, and you will see that the ACC is indeed one of the best conferences in women's basketball. There are those who will judge us by our conference record only (rightly or wrongly) but consistently the ACC has 4 or 5 teams in the top 25. With the Big East being huge, that is going to be a given. I wouldn't look too much at the SEC past Tennessee and Kentucky. The Big 12 is legitimate, and it's one of the reasons that G is having a hard time since top to bottom (unlike the ACC and SEC) they are solid through and through.
Anyways, back to my original point at any point for most any year and you may see in the top 25
Duke
Maryland
UNC
NCSU
UVA
FSU
Miami
Welcome GT to that mix now. Of course not every team is going to be at the top of their game every year, and might not be ranked for the whole season, but when you have 8 solid programs in your conference it's impossible to say the ACC isn't a tough place to play.
Since she's been here, Coach P has led her team to the ACC tourney championship game EVERY year she's been here except for this year. The last 2 of those Duke won. And some of y'all are complaining about that. Whoever takes the job over for K is doomed.

JG Nothing
03-04-2012, 09:41 AM
Our old coach quit. We had to hire someone. Some people were blaming Alleva for not doing whatever it took to keep G. What did you expect him to say?

To simply say Goestenkors "quit" does not do justice to the situation leading up to her departure. Of course "we had to hire someone" once our old coach left. What did I say to suggest otherwise?

Alleva framed the hire as Goestenkors was not able to win a national championship but McCallie was someone who can. That was his choice. There were a thousand ways to spin the transition and that is how Alleva choose to do it (probably as a parting shot at Goestenkors). Alleva could have framed the hire as one that keeps Duke as an elite, top tier team for example. If you are saying that is all rhetoric and for show, then fine. But it still was not necessary. Of course, Duke hired someone to win national championships. But Alleva explicitly set the bar for success at a national championship. If McCallie was hired to take the program to the "next level" and she does not, then McCallie did not do what she was hired to do. That is all I'm saying to try to put msdukie's comment in context. And, as I also said, that may or may not be fair to McCallie.

JG Nothing
03-04-2012, 10:39 AM
Exactly. People can jaw as much as they want to about how we haven't won an national championship, or how what has happened 2008- isn't as awesome as what Auriemma has done. It's about opportunity cost. You lose, say, the 6th best coach in the game, under these other NC winning coaches. Just to keep the program at the level it was under G is amazing.

Ironically, as you complain about other people jawing you do some jawing yourself. Welcome to the unwashed masses. Also, what opportunity cost are you talking about? Can you explain?

J.Blink
03-04-2012, 11:07 AM
To simply say Goestenkors "quit" does not do justice to the situation leading up to her departure. Of course "we had to hire someone" once our old coach left. What did I say to suggest otherwise?

What does that mean? I had always thought her leaving was largely a product of getting divorced and wanting a fresh start, but I can't say I followed the situation that closely. Were there behind the scenes machinations?

uh_no
03-04-2012, 11:14 AM
What does that mean? I had always thought her leaving was largely a product of getting divorced and wanting a fresh start, but I can't say I followed the situation that closely. Were there behind the scenes machinations?

She didn't get along with alleva, and texas gave her more money

Raleighfan
03-04-2012, 11:37 AM
"What does that mean? I had always thought her leaving was largely a product of getting divorced and wanting a fresh start, but I can't say I followed the situation that closely."

Not an insider with regard to GG's private life, but was/am season ticket-holder (and loyal in attendance!) to WBB games here for a number of years....that said, GG's wanting a fresh start may have been a factor but I seriously doubt her divorce had anything to do with leaving Duke/going to Texas. Indeed, her ex had already left this area for his own "fresh start".

Kfanarmy
03-04-2012, 02:01 PM
... it might be worth remembering that G never quite reached her own next level either. And it wasn't just the losing but the utterly devastating way in which our teams so often seemed out of their element at the most critical times. ... Frankly, I wished she had more time here ... Had G stuck around up to today, the "How lucky..." question might be asked of her. She might have reached her potential/gotten that national championship if she hadn't been chasing her "dream job" at Texas during the NCAA tournament. I will always believe her taking interviews with Texas' administration impacted the prep of her final game and may have cost Duke women a national title....Frankly, I think she is reaping what she sowed at Texas...hard to tell recruits how committed you are when you're history indicates that in your team's biggest moment, you were thinking of you.

77devil
03-04-2012, 03:51 PM
Well, I'll respond by saying, are you kidding? The ACC has been one of the toughest conferences in all of women's basketball, and Duke under Coach P has by-and-large owned the conference. K couldn't say anything close to that his first 5 years.

Top to bottom, the men were stronger in the early 1980's. Half the 8 team conference was routinely in the top 20. And, of course, there was the full round robin that Coach P has never faced plus the extensive weakness below the top of the expanded league, just like the men.

Under coach P, Duke has finished first in the regular season and won the conference championship 2 out of 5 times. That's not "by and large owning" the conference. You are just making things up.



In 1977-78, Duke was ACC champion and the national runner up under Foster. In 1978-79, we were the pre-season #1 in the country (and held the top spot for 9 weeks), tied for the ACC regular season championship, and made the ACC tournament final. In 1979-80, we were #1 in the country for 8 weeks, won the ACC championship, and made the Elite Eight. To me, those three years sound like a team on the verge of elite status.

To each his own in defining on the verge of greatness. However, pre-season #1 means nothing. Duke tied UNC for the regular season and went out in the first round of the NCAA. Many consider that season a failure relative to expectations, and a major disappointment. Duke was # 1 in the 1980 season for 4 weeks, not 8, early in the season. Again, you are just making things up.

http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/by_season.cfm?seasonid=1980&teamid=64

And you choose to ignore the essential point that Foster did not sustain the recruiting of great talent after the Banks and Dennard class to sustain what he built. Most importantly, regardless how one defines Duke under Foster, what he left for coach K was a mere semblance of what had been.


Coming out of high school, Tom Emma was considered one of the best talents ever to come out of Long Island. Chip Engelland became one of the best shooters and scorers in the ACC. Add those two to Dennard and Taylor and I'd say it's a pretty solid supporting cast for our star, Gene Banks.

Emma's stature out of high school is irrelevant to his performance in college which was mediocre at best. England put up some decent numbers as a junior and senior, but nothing close to resembling "one of the best scorers in the ACC." If you really think this is part of a solid supporting cast, instead of just debating for it's own sake, when the competition is Sam Perkins, James Worthy Michael Jordon, Jimmy Black, Buck Williams, Albert King, Greg Manning, Len Bias, Ralph Sampson, Jeff Lamp, Sidney Lowe, Derrick Wittenburg, Thurl Bailey, Frank Johnson, Guy Morgan, and on and on, so be it.

Kedsy
03-04-2012, 04:57 PM
Top to bottom, the men were stronger in the early 1980's. Half the 8 team conference was routinely in the top 20.

During Coach P's tenure at Duke half the women's teams have routinely been in the top 25. What's the difference?


Under coach P, Duke has finished first in the regular season and won the conference championship 2 out of 5 times. That's not "by and large owning" the conference. You are just making things up.

Duke finished 3rd in P's first two years and 1st the next three years (not two -- who's making things up now?). She made the ACC tournament final in each of her first four seasons (this season being the only year she hasn't), winning the ACC championship in two of those years. What team in the ACC has done better during P's time here?


To each his own in defining on the verge of greatness. However, pre-season #1 means nothing. Duke tied UNC for the regular season and went out in the first round of the NCAA. Many consider that season a failure relative to expectations, and a major disappointment.

It wasn't just pre-season. We were #1 for the entire month of December. We tied for first in the regular season and reached the ACC championship game. I was as disappointed as anyone when we lost our first game in the NCAA tournament (which was in the 2nd round, by the way, not the first round; we had a bye in the first round). I suppose "to each his own" in defining "major disappointment," but personally I thought it was a far better season than any of K's first few years.


Duke was # 1 in the 1980 season for 4 weeks, not 8, early in the season. Again, you are just making things up.

I misspoke. We were #1 for 8 games, not 8 weeks. And in 1978-79 it was 9 games (5 weeks), not 9 weeks. (Sorry about that, although with your hostile tone I really don't know why I'm bothering to be polite to you.)


And you choose to ignore the essential point that Foster did not sustain the recruiting of great talent after the Banks and Dennard class to sustain what he built.

He recruited Spanarkel, then Gminski the next year, then Banks and Dennard the next year, then Vince Taylor the next year, then Tom Emma (who was a top recruit) and Chip Engelland (who was a good recruit), along with Mike Tissaw and Alan Williams (who were both considered pretty decent recruits even though they didn't pan out so well). The only year he didn't recruit well was his final year, when apparently he had one foot out the door.


Most importantly, regardless how one defines Duke under Foster, what he left for coach K was a mere semblance of what had been.

K inherited an Elite Eight team that had lost two players: pretty good PG Bob Bender and second team All-American C Mike Gminski. P inherited an Elite Eight team that lost two players: first team All-American PG Lindsay Harding and first team All-ACC C Alison Bales, who at the time was the 3rd leading shot-blocker in women's NCAA history.

Again, I don't see much of a difference, or if there is one it's in P's favor. You certainly can't say K's first Duke team had lost more from the previous season than P's first Duke team.


Emma's stature out of high school is irrelevant to his performance in college which was mediocre at best. England put up some decent numbers as a junior and senior, but nothing close to resembling "one of the best scorers in the ACC." If you really think this is part of a solid supporting cast, instead of just debating for it's own sake, when the competition is Sam Perkins, James Worthy Michael Jordon, Jimmy Black, Buck Williams, Albert King, Greg Manning, Len Bias, Ralph Sampson, Jeff Lamp, Sidney Lowe, Derrick Wittenburg, Thurl Bailey, Frank Johnson, Guy Morgan, and on and on, so be it.

Tom Emma was a rising sophomore when K took over, and at the time a lot of people thought Emma was going to be a very good player. Engelland (not "England," by the way -- that's a small country in Europe) shot 55% from 3-point range in 1983 (2nd best single-season performance in Duke history) and scored 15+ ppg in 1982. I can't find the leading scorers list from Engelland's day, so I can't say whether Engelland was on that list or not.

Putting that aside, I'm not sure how naming the other ACC teams' stars has anything to do with whether Emma and Engelland were part of a solid supporting cast around Duke's stars. They were.

77devil
03-04-2012, 07:30 PM
During Coach P's tenure at Duke half the women's teams have routinely been in the top 25. What's the difference?



Duke finished 3rd in P's first two years and 1st the next three years (not two -- who's making things up now?). She made the ACC tournament final in each of her first four seasons (this season being the only year she hasn't), winning the ACC championship in two of those years. What team in the ACC has done better during P's time here?



It wasn't just pre-season. We were #1 for the entire month of December. We tied for first in the regular season and reached the ACC championship game. I was as disappointed as anyone when we lost our first game in the NCAA tournament (which was in the 2nd round, by the way, not the first round; we had a bye in the first round). I suppose "to each his own" in defining "major disappointment," but personally I thought it was a far better season than any of K's first few years.



I misspoke. We were #1 for 8 games, not 8 weeks. And in 1978-79 it was 9 games (5 weeks), not 9 weeks. (Sorry about that, although with your hostile tone I really don't know why I'm bothering to be polite to you.)



He recruited Spanarkel, then Gminski the next year, then Banks and Dennard the next year, then Vince Taylor the next year, then Tom Emma (who was a top recruit) and Chip Engelland (who was a good recruit), along with Mike Tissaw and Alan Williams (who were both considered pretty decent recruits even though they didn't pan out so well). The only year he didn't recruit well was his final year, when apparently he had one foot out the door.



K inherited an Elite Eight team that had lost two players: pretty good PG Bob Bender and second team All-American C Mike Gminski. P inherited an Elite Eight team that lost two players: first team All-American PG Lindsay Harding and first team All-ACC C Alison Bales, who at the time was the 3rd leading shot-blocker in women's NCAA history.

Again, I don't see much of a difference, or if there is one it's in P's favor. You certainly can't say K's first Duke team had lost more from the previous season than P's first Duke team.



Tom Emma was a rising sophomore when K took over, and at the time a lot of people thought Emma was going to be a very good player. Engelland (not "England," by the way -- that's a small country in Europe) shot 55% from 3-point range in 1983 (2nd best single-season performance in Duke history) and scored 15+ ppg in 1982. I can't find the leading scorers list from Engelland's day, so I can't say whether Engelland was on that list or not.

Putting that aside, I'm not sure how naming the other ACC teams' stars has anything to do with whether Emma and Engelland were part of a solid supporting cast around Duke's stars. They were.

I miscounted. Still, 3 out of 5 and 2 out of 5 does not constitute your exagerated "by and large owning the conference." You state that K had it better than P, but try to argue that Emma and Engelland were strong support in a league with the elite competition I named which you try dismiss. You state that the 1980 team was elite 8, but fail to acknowledge that by being 7-7 in ACC play demonstrates how much stronger the league was when K arrived.

You claim the ACC women routinely put half of the league in the top 25 during the P era which is false; more like a third. You make a spurious claim that the 1979 Foster team was better than K's "first few years." Who is comparing K to Foster? Where did that come from? If you are going to throw it out there at least get your facts right and make a valid comparison. 1979 was Foster's 5th season and in 1985 Duke won the ACC tournament, 2 rounds in the Big Dance, and had one more win and same # of losses.

Your original argument was that P dId better than K in their first 5 years without qualification. I've listed many valid extenuating reasons in my responses that you choose to ignore or try to refute with unsubstantiated subjectivity or outright falsehoods. This conversation is like arguing with David.

msdukie
03-04-2012, 08:01 PM
I cannot speak for msdukie. However, Alleva said at McCallie's introduction that she was hired specifically to take Duke to the "next level." Alleva explicitly set the bar at a national championship. Maybe that is not fair to McCallie, but that is how she was presented.

This is what I was talking about.

miramar
03-04-2012, 08:44 PM
She might have reached her potential/gotten that national championship if she hadn't been chasing her "dream job" at Texas during the NCAA tournament. I will always believe her taking interviews with Texas' administration impacted the prep of her final game and may have cost Duke women a national title....Frankly, I think she is reaping what she sowed at Texas...hard to tell recruits how committed you are when you're history indicates that in your team's biggest moment, you were thinking of you.

To be fair, Rutgers played really well (plus they had all those tattoos), not to mention that Duke had its best shooter on the line at the end, two shots and down only one. I am certain that I wasn't the only one who was sure that at worst it would go to overtime.

I don't know if Coach G is reaping what she sowed or if it's simply a case of be careful what you wish for. No matter what, it's clear that she doesn't seem to be a great fit at Texas, so I guess the Duke curse is alive and well in Austin.

uh_no
03-04-2012, 08:55 PM
I don't know if Coach G is reaping what she sowed or if it's simply a case of be careful what you wish for. No matter what, it's clear that she doesn't seem to be a great fit at Texas, so I guess the Duke curse is alive and well in Austin.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to G. She was in what she thought was a bad situation at duke. Texas gave her the money and duke did not. I'm not sure either party is at fault here. Duke didn't want to pay that kind of money to a program which wasn't generating a whole lot of profit (I think they draw a loss....not sure), so they were justified not ponying up from a financial standpoint. You can't blame a coach for leaving when another program is willing to offer more money, especially when you are in a situation where you don't necessarily see eye to eye with the AD.

She's not had the success at Texas that I'm sure she's wanted (for whatever reason), but we don't know if she would have sustained her success at Duke either. For all we know, she could have done less with the talent she recruited than P ended up doing. There's just no way to know.

Mike Corey
03-04-2012, 08:59 PM
I've no authority with which to make this request, but I would suggest that we take it easy on both Coach G and Coach P.

The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record. I'd suggest that all that matters is that she loved Duke, she transformed Duke women's basketball into a juggernaut, she is now at Texas, and she is worthy of our respect as Duke alums and/or fans.

Coach P is an a very different coach than Goestenkors. She was brought in with a goal of winning national championships. That is also why Coach G was in Durham. But Coach P's rebuilding the program in her own way, and that doesn't happen overnight, even when inheriting a talent-rich team. That does not require perfection, nor constant progress.

Coach P's teams are yet to enjoy the sustained success that Coach G's did in the latter half of her tenure in Durham. That does not mean Coach P isn't up to the task, or that she and her teams never will be. Her recruiting, for one, begs to differ.

So hopefully Duke can make a strong showing this postseason, and hopefully we can leave the snide remarks about Coach G behind as well.

OldPhiKap
03-04-2012, 09:10 PM
I've no authority with which to make this request, but I would suggest that we take it easy on both Coach G and Coach P.

The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record. I'd suggest that all that matters is that she loved Duke, she transformed Duke women's basketball into a juggernaut, she is now at Texas, and she is worthy of our respect as Duke alums and/or fans.

Coach P is an a very different coach than Goestenkors. She was brought in with a goal of winning national championships. That is also why Coach G was in Durham. But Coach P's rebuilding the program in her own way, and that doesn't happen overnight, even when inheriting a talent-rich team. That does not require perfection, nor constant progress.

Coach P's teams are yet to enjoy the sustained success that Coach G's did in the latter half of her tenure in Durham. That does not mean Coach P isn't up to the task, or that she and her teams never will be. Her recruiting, for one, begs to differ.

So hopefully Duke can make a strong showing this postseason, and hopefully we can leave the snide remarks about Coach G behind as well.

Could not have said it better.

I'm glad to see there is some passion about our women's team, I guess that's the positive. But as Mike correctly states, both are good coaches and both will (hopefully) leave a positive mark on our university.

JG Nothing
03-04-2012, 09:33 PM
I've no authority with which to make this request, but I would suggest that we take it easy on both Coach G and Coach P.

The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record. I'd suggest that all that matters is that she loved Duke, she transformed Duke women's basketball into a juggernaut, she is now at Texas, and she is worthy of our respect as Duke alums and/or fans.

Coach P is an a very different coach than Goestenkors. She was brought in with a goal of winning national championships. That is also why Coach G was in Durham. But Coach P's rebuilding the program in her own way, and that doesn't happen overnight, even when inheriting a talent-rich team. That does not require perfection, nor constant progress.

Coach P's teams are yet to enjoy the sustained success that Coach G's did in the latter half of her tenure in Durham. That does not mean Coach P isn't up to the task, or that she and her teams never will be. Her recruiting, for one, begs to differ.

So hopefully Duke can make a strong showing this postseason, and hopefully we can leave the snide remarks about Coach G behind as well.

This: "The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record."

All I am saying is statements like Goestenkors simply "quit" or "didn't get along with Alleva" really misrepresent the situation and what when on. By the way uh_no, Texas did not "give her more money." Duke matched Texas' offer.

uh_no
03-04-2012, 09:39 PM
This: "The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record."

All I am saying is statements like Goestenkors simply "quit" or "didn't get along with Alleva" really misrepresent the situation and what when on. By the way uh_no, Texas did not "give her more money." Duke matched Texas' offer.

I have been misled!!!!

I will hunt down the parties that def me these lies!


There must have been something.....one does not simply leave a top level program for the same money if they did not think it a better situation....why would she think it a better situation in texas then? No idea.

That was sort of beside the point though, and the crux of my post was that some people were being unfair to coach G here....and saying she deserves to be losing in texas becuase she left us....as if its some sort of karmic occurrence...and I was trying to refute that by trying to show that it was kind of low to criticize her for leaving for what she thought was a better situation...whatever the reason....

JG Nothing
03-04-2012, 09:43 PM
She might have reached her potential/gotten that national championship if she hadn't been chasing her "dream job" at Texas during the NCAA tournament. I will always believe her taking interviews with Texas' administration impacted the prep of her final game and may have cost Duke women a national title....Frankly, I think she is reaping what she sowed at Texas...hard to tell recruits how committed you are when you're history indicates that in your team's biggest moment, you were thinking of you.

Please cite the source for your claim that Goestenkors was "taking interviews with Texas' administration" while Duke was still in the NCAA Tournament. Texas did not get permission from Duke to speak with Goestenkors until two days after the lose to Rutgers.

Kedsy
03-05-2012, 01:22 AM
You claim the ACC women routinely put half of the league in the top 25 during the P era which is false; more like a third.

This season, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and UVa). In 2010-11, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and BC). In 2009-10, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, FSU, UVa, Ga Tech, UNC, Miami, and Maryland). In 2008-09, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, FSU, UVa, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (Wake Forest) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2008-09. In 2007-08, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, UVa, FSU, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (NC State) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2007-08.

Last I checked, there are 12 teams in the ACC. I only got through four semesters of calculus at Duke, but since 7 ACC teams were ranked every year of P's tenure, I'd say ACC women in fact routinely put more than half of the league in the top 25. So really, it's your claim which is false.

I haven't checked on your other claim, that half of the men's ACC was ranked during K's first 5 years, but perhaps you'd like to validate your own claim?

Also, note that Duke is one of the teams in the AP top 25 in every single year of P's first five years at Duke. I'm pretty sure we we've been ranked every single week of P's time here. I'm also certain K can't say anything close to that about his first five years.

sagegrouse
03-05-2012, 06:53 AM
I don't know if Coach G is reaping what she sowed or if it's simply a case of be careful what you wish for. No matter what, it's clear that she doesn't seem to be a great fit at Texas, so I guess the Duke curse is alive and well in Austin.


I'm not sure that's entirely fair to G. She was in what she thought was a bad situation at duke. Texas gave her the money and duke did not. I'm not sure either party is at fault here. Duke didn't want to pay that kind of money to a program which wasn't generating a whole lot of profit (I think they draw a loss....not sure), so they were justified not ponying up from a financial standpoint. You can't blame a coach for leaving when another program is willing to offer more money, especially when you are in a situation where you don't necessarily see eye to eye with the AD.




I've no authority with which to make this request, but I would suggest that we take it easy on both Coach G and Coach P.

The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record. I'd suggest that all that matters is that she loved Duke, she transformed Duke women's basketball into a juggernaut, she is now at Texas, and she is worthy of our respect as Duke alums and/or fans.




This: "The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record."

All I am saying is statements like Goestenkors simply "quit" or "didn't get along with Alleva" really misrepresent the situation and what when on. By the way uh_no, Texas did not "give her more money." Duke matched Texas' offer.

As former Wake, So. Car., and ECU coach Dave Odom said, "Sometimes it's best to change jobs after a few years." Some people and coaches want new scenery and new challenges. I have always put G in that camp, of which former Duke coach Bill Foster is a leading example (Rutgers, Utah, Duke and South Carolina). Then there is Eddie Sutton who coached at Creighton, Arkansas, Kentucky, Oklahoma State and San Francisco.

People change jobs. Maybe it isn't their or anyone's fault.

sagegrouse

killerleft
03-05-2012, 09:07 AM
I don't think its fair to condemn her based on a single game, but its certainly fair to say that the other elite teams don't usually lose like this in their conference tournaments. The duke women and Coach P aren't there yet. Uconn lost to st johns a couple weeks ago. ND lost to west virginia. Losses happen. NCSU is 5-11 in conference, though. That's pretty bad relative to duke. If duke wants to get up to the pantheon of women's basketball, they can't lose these games.

Again, I think the next 2-3 years will be critical if coach P wants to inarguably establish herself as one of the top coaches in the game.

I don't think it can be said any better than that. Very disappointed in the loss, but State's women were allowed to find a comfort zone and took it from there. It might be a good time to congratulate them on a very well-played game, no matter what happened from a Duke perspective.

killerleft
03-05-2012, 09:57 AM
At some point, most of the people in this thread will realize that NCAA Men's Basketball and NCAA Women's Basketball live in two different worlds.

And P was brought here to win a championship, nothing less.

This line is becoming very tiresome, and not without it's own "Duh!" factor. Of course she was brought in to win championships! How strange would it be to strive for anything less? Just because the dearly departed Joe Alleva said something does not make McCallie a failure for not winning a national title in her short time at Duke. I have a hard time believing that you've said this several times in your non-support of Coach P. Give it a rest, dude. Make whatever argument you want, but this one you oughtta leave alone. If you're saying she won't ever win one, spit it out. If not, then the jury is not even deliberating yet, the evidence is STILL BEING PRESENTED!

77devil
03-05-2012, 07:35 PM
This season, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and UVa). In 2010-11, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and BC). In 2009-10, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, FSU, UVa, Ga Tech, UNC, Miami, and Maryland). In 2008-09, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, FSU, UVa, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (Wake Forest) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2008-09. In 2007-08, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, UVa, FSU, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (NC State) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2007-08.

Last I checked, there are 12 teams in the ACC. I only got through four semesters of calculus at Duke, but since 7 ACC teams were ranked every year of P's tenure, I'd say ACC women in fact routinely put more than half of the league in the top 25. So really, it's your claim which is false.

I haven't checked on your other claim, that half of the men's ACC was ranked during K's first 5 years, but perhaps you'd like to validate your own claim?

Also, note that Duke is one of the teams in the AP top 25 in every single year of P's first five years at Duke. I'm pretty sure we we've been ranked every single week of P's time here. I'm also certain K can't say anything close to that about his first five years.

You keep trying to change the parameters. "At one point or another" is superfluous. In the 2009-2010 season at one point or another, the UNC men were ranked as high as # 6 and we know how meaningful that was. According to this source, http://www.collegepollarchive.com/wbasketball/ap/seasons.cfm?appollid=631, the final AP poll, it's about 1/3 over the five years as I said before, even when you gratuitously throw in an extra 5 slots. Feel free to check the top 20 data, which is what I stated from the beginning, for the men. I've already done the work. In our exchanges, I'm the one who has provided sources. You, not so much.

Since your response only addressed one item in my previous post, I presume you have conceded the rest. N'est-ce pas?

Kedsy
03-05-2012, 08:54 PM
You keep trying to change the parameters. "At one point or another" is superfluous. In the 2009-2010 season at one point or another, the UNC men were ranked as high as # 6 and we know how meaningful that was. According to this source, http://www.collegepollarchive.com/wbasketball/ap/seasons.cfm?appollid=631, the final AP poll, it's about 1/3 over the five years as I said before, even when you gratuitously throw in an extra 5 slots.

My understanding is you've been arguing that Coach K had it tougher than Coach P because there were more good teams in the early '80s men's ACC than there have been in the past five years. To that end, how many teams were good enough to be ranked at any point in the season is a lot more relevant than how many teams happened to be ranked in the final AP poll.

But even if you look at the final poll only, one-third of a 12 team league is the same number of ranked teams as one-half of an 8 team league. If your argument is that the extra few games against the bottom of the league explains the difference between P's 138-31 record over her first five seasons and K's 85-65 record in his first five seasons, then your argument is specious.


Feel free to check the top 20 data, which is what I stated from the beginning, for the men. I've already done the work. In our exchanges, I'm the one who has provided sources. You, not so much.

Other than providing a link to a site that lists the AP rankings, you haven't provided any sources at all. Or any data. I went through every poll for five years and spent a lot of time compiling exactly which women's teams were ranked in each year. I didn't figure you needed the link since it's pretty easy to find a link to the AP poll. On the other hand, you've given us nothing but a general link. If you've "already done the work," why not share with us how many men's teams were ranked during K's first five seasons?



Since your response only addressed one item in my previous post, I presume you have conceded the rest. N'est-ce pas?

Actually, I only addressed one item in your previous post because I didn't find anything else you said worthy of a response.

77devil
03-05-2012, 11:02 PM
To that end, how many teams were good enough to be ranked at any point in the season is a lot more relevant than how many teams happened to be ranked in the final AP poll.

This is unsubstantiated opinion to which you are entitled, but it's nothing more. Ranking at any point in the season is a subjective view of the voters based on incomplete information. The final poll reflects all the team's full body of work and is more indicative of the relative strengths and weaknesses which is my opinion. No point in debating this further.


But even if you look at the final poll only, one-third of a 12 team league is the same number of ranked teams as one-half of an 8 team league. If your argument is that the extra few games against the bottom of the league explains the difference between P's 138-31 record over her first five seasons and K's 85-65 record in his first five seasons, then your argument is specious.

I made no such argument. I simply stated that the 8 team ACC in the early 1980's was stronger than the recent 12 team conference(men and women) with no real bottom feeders and a round robin. Your argument appears to be that P is a better coach because of a better record in the first 5 year and there are no extenuating factors.


Other than providing a link to a site that lists the AP rankings, you haven't provided any sources at all. Or any data.

This is inaccurate. I provided a link earlier that disproved one of your unsubstantiated inaccurate statements.


On the other hand, you've given us nothing but a general link. If you've "already done the work," why not share with us how many men's teams were ranked during K's first five seasons?

I already did in an earlier post. If you choose not to believe what I stated before, have at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVKPUNoeI4

Kfanarmy
03-05-2012, 11:10 PM
Please cite the source for your claim that Goestenkors was "taking interviews with Texas' administration" while Duke was still in the NCAA Tournament. Texas did not get permission from Duke to speak with Goestenkors until two days after the lose to Rutgers. It was widely reported and as I recall, Coach G confirmed that she took a phone call from UT to discuss a potential move to Texas and to set up a follow-on meeting the night/day before the rutgers game...believe if you simply search far enough back in DBR you'll find all the background you need.

Kfanarmy
03-05-2012, 11:22 PM
I'm not sure that's entirely fair to G. She was in what she thought was a bad situation at duke. Texas gave her the money and duke did not. I'm not sure either party is at fault here. Duke didn't want to pay that kind of money to a program which wasn't generating a whole lot of profit (I think they draw a loss....not sure), so they were justified not ponying up from a financial standpoint. You can't blame a coach for leaving when another program is willing to offer more money, especially when you are in a situation where you don't necessarily see eye to eye with the AD... Most of what is in this para is inaccurate, the exception, perhaps, being her relationship to the AD. When Coach G began her "move" to UT, Duke was in the middle of a NCAA Championship run...Texas made her an offer, which as I recall, Duke matched. All that aside, I don't fault anyone from moving jobs...change is life blood for many people. However, I will never accept that even taking a phone call from UT AD while your team is prepping for an NCAAT game in a season where you are anticipating a run to the final four is anything other than unacceptable and self centered.

msdukie
03-05-2012, 11:38 PM
This line is becoming very tiresome, and not without it's own "Duh!" factor. Of course she was brought in to win championships! How strange would it be to strive for anything less? Just because the dearly departed Joe Alleva said something does not make McCallie a failure for not winning a national title in her short time at Duke. I have a hard time believing that you've said this several times in your non-support of Coach P. Give it a rest, dude. Make whatever argument you want, but this one you oughtta leave alone. If you're saying she won't ever win one, spit it out. If not, then the jury is not even deliberating yet, the evidence is STILL BEING PRESENTED!

You are misreading my point. I was pointing out the irrelevance of this entire comparison of Foster v. K to G v. P, and the lack of parity in women's basketball is a key part of this. I also pointed out the standard under which she was to be held when hired. I never said that she wouldn't ultimately succeed or win a national title. But that is why she was brought here and I hope she will eventually get there. G did not succeed in this final goal either, though she was hired in 1992 with a different level of expectations, however, she changed them.

Do you think David Cutcliffe was hired with the expectation of winning a national title or competing for one every season? No, he was hired to bring us a winning program that we could be proud of that could compete in the upper level of the ACC and go bowling on a semi-regular basis. Different programs have different expectations.

Mike Corey
03-05-2012, 11:54 PM
Most of what is in this para is inaccurate, the exception, perhaps, being her relationship to the AD. When Coach G began her "move" to UT, Duke was in the middle of a NCAA Championship run...Texas made her an offer, which as I recall, Duke matched. All that aside, I don't fault anyone from moving jobs...change is life blood for many people. However, I will never accept that even taking a phone call from UT AD while your team is prepping for an NCAAT game in a season where you are anticipating a run to the final four is anything other than unacceptable and self centered.

This is not a fair characterization, at all, of what happened with Coach G.

The only thing in here that is accurately represented is that Duke eventually matched Texas' offer.

-jk
03-06-2012, 07:06 AM
I think it's time to retire this thread.

It's apparent there are issues with G's situation we'll never know, and that still rankles some people.

We're just spinning wheels.

-jk