MBB: Duke 79, Wake Forest 71 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[gcashwell]

Great game by miles and Kelly. I thought K made some mistakes tonight with his lineup at times.

[Bob Green]

We were sloppy down the stretch but the guys hung on to finish 8-0 in ACC road games. That is an awesome accomplishment. Congratulations to the players!!!

[davekay1971]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

Ummm, glad we won. Nice starting 10 minutes of the 2nd half - locked in, playing well. Then our guys fell asleep. I actually thought I saw a couple of them wearing jammies on court. I'm sure Coach K will use the last 10 minutes to teach/motivate. As a fan, I'm going to politely ignore it and look forward to Saturday.

[Chris Randolph]

Wake Forest is bad. Ryan, Miles and Seth were good tonight. Mason bounced back with a solid game. Andre played his worst game of the year by far. Hope he brings his 3 pt stroke and brain to Cameron on Saturday. Wish we would not have set the cruise control on 8mph for the last 10 minutes. That was sickening to watch. Got the win, all that matters at this point. Focus on Saturday

[Scorp4me]

Amazing what this team has accomplished with all of the perceived faults and weaknesses it has. They've been alot of fun to watch and taken us for a heck of a ride.

And yes it looks like Tony swung at Mason in that video. Frustration I'd guess, but still no excuse.

[Chris Randolph]

Great game by miles and Kelly. I thought K made some mistakes tonight with his lineup at times.

I questioned the Thornton and Cook lineup together (not the end game lineup but earlier in the half). My only thought is he was thinking he trust the team to handle Wake and not let off the gas, maybe get some guys some rest. Even Coach K is still learning at his age :)

[DukieInBrasil]

good enough to win. not sure that's a good thing.

Miles continues to rebound at an awesome rate. And Mason is way above 50% FTs for the year!!! Another disappearing act from Dawkins, but very solid contributions from everybody else.

[MCFinARL]

Did I miss something? Andre barely saw the court in the second half, even when the personnel on the court were generating no offense and letting Wake go on a huge run. Granted, Andre did not do anything outstanding when he was in the game, but I didn't see him make major mistakes, either. He seems to be back on Coach K's quick hook. Given it was only 2 games ago he scored 22 points and was crucial in the FSU game (before riding the pine in much of the second half of that one, as well), what has he done to see his role so diminished?

[jipops]

How we got the W left quite a few things to be desired. But we go the W and that's the important thing. 8-0 on the road in the ACC with this crew is quite an accomplishment. Though it is essentially meaningless, if K doesn't get ACC coach of the year for this team's accomplishments then it will be a real head-scratcher.

I thought we were very fortunate on the block call that gave Mason an and-1 in those closing minutes to end Wake's spurt. I totally thought he charged in that one, and if the charge was called we could very well be looking at a different result.

Our offense was really bad those final 10 minutes. We seemed mentally checked out of the game. Nobody valued the ball, I think we had 3 or 4 straight possessions with turnovers. The defense was ok overall, on some sequences we looked impressive, on others we looked same 'ol - same 'ol for this season.

Our big guys got excellent looks underneath but once again, Mason specifically, had trouble finishing around the basket. This again creates the illusion that we rely on the perimeter too heavily. It almost looks like Mason's hurt because it doesn't even appear to be getting any lift. Whatever it is, it needs to be gone by Saturday.

Curry looked great tonight, especially driving the ball. Kelly was terrific on offense, I love those curls on the elbow. Miles' defense was terrific. If we advance deep in March, it's probably going to be because of him.

[dairedevil]

I questioned the Thornton and Cook lineup together (not the end game lineup but earlier in the half). My only thought is he was thinking he trust the team to handle Wake and not let off the gas, maybe get some guys some rest. Even Coach K is still learning at his age :)

Didn't the Thornton/Cook lineup come after Curry had the knee bump injury? Could K have been trying to rest and protect him from further injury (and fouls)? We'll certainly need him against unc.

[fisheyes]

Congrats to the team for going undefeated on the road in the ACC!

Congrats to Mason for 8-9 from the free throw line!

Congrats to Ryan!!!

GTHC GTH!!!

[gep]

Did I miss something? Andre barely saw the court in the second half, even when the personnel on the court were generating no offense and letting Wake go on a huge run. Granted, Andre did not do anything outstanding when he was in the game, but I didn't see him make major mistakes, either. He seems to be back on Coach K's quick hook. Given it was only 2 games ago he scored 22 points and was crucial in the FSU game (before riding the pine in much of the second half of that one, as well), what has he done to see his role so diminished?

This has concerned me the whole season. Is there something wrong with Andre's play? attitude? consistency? on defense? I really like him, and really want him to succeed. But, as you say, in some games, he disappears... :confused:

[mgtr]

I was probably most impressed with Kelly taking the ball inside. We need more of that.

[jv001]

Good game for Seth, Miles and Ryan. I love Miles' intensity. He got two big rebounds late in the game. Seth got us going with 3 big 3s and Ryan led us in scoring. Some things for Coach K to get upset with so the guys do get complacent. GoDuke!

[Chris Randolph]

Did I miss something? Andre barely saw the court in the second half, even when the personnel on the court were generating no offense and letting Wake go on a huge run. Granted, Andre did not do anything outstanding when he was in the game, but I didn't see him make major mistakes, either. He seems to be back on Coach K's quick hook. Given it was only 2 games ago he scored 22 points and was crucial in the FSU game (before riding the pine in much of the second half of that one, as well), what has he done to see his role so diminished?

Each time he got put in the game in the 2nd half he did one of 3 things (sometimes all 3 during one stint on the court): get beat off the dribble for a layup, miss an open shot, turn it over. He is a shooter so when he misses OPEN looks and doesn't play much defense, he is a liability

[MCFinARL]

good enough to win. not sure that's a good thing.

Miles continues to rebound at an awesome rate. And Mason is way above 50% FTs for the year!!! Another disappearing act from Dawkins, but very solid contributions from everybody else.

Well, it's pretty hard not to disappear when you aren't on the court. He hit one of three shots in 11 minutes and seemed to be moving on offense. He had two rebounds. He seemed to be working hard, if not always effectively, on defense. He had a few fouls, though at least one seemed like a pretty ticky tack call to me. Maybe we can't call this a stellar performance, but I don't see how he can be expected to make an impact, or criticized for "disappearing," when he has so little opportunity to get into a rhythm.

[superdave]

Did I miss something? Andre barely saw the court in the second half, even when the personnel on the court were generating no offense and letting Wake go on a huge run. Granted, Andre did not do anything outstanding when he was in the game, but I didn't see him make major mistakes, either. He seems to be back on Coach K's quick hook. Given it was only 2 games ago he scored 22 points and was crucial in the FSU game (before riding the pine in much of the second half of that one, as well), what has he done to see his role so diminished?

I think Coach K has decided Andre is either on or off. He's either into the game, playing hard and making shots or his not crisp and mistake prone. You can usually tell if he's got it or not and his minutes are earned accordingly.

[jv001]

Did I miss something? Andre barely saw the court in the second half, even when the personnel on the court were generating no offense and letting Wake go on a huge run. Granted, Andre did not do anything outstanding when he was in the game, but I didn't see him make major mistakes, either. He seems to be back on Coach K's quick hook. Given it was only 2 games ago he scored 22 points and was crucial in the FSU game (before riding the pine in much of the second half of that one, as well), what has he done to see his role so diminished?

From my seat in the living room I saw Andre get his shot blocked. Then he proceeded to let his man beat him off the dribble two times and then drop kick the ball over to Wake. I don't know if he was in foul trouble, but he sure got the hook pretty quicky not to return. GoDuke!

[RockyMtDevil]

This has concerned me the whole season. Is there something wrong with Andre's play? attitude? consistency? on defense? I really like him, and really want him to succeed. But, as you say, in some games, he disappears... :confused:

Seriously, this has been happening for three years now and you are suddenly made aware....

I wouldn't make much of the Wake comeback, they hit shots that they normally don't hit. Besides the bone head Kelly shot after Miles got the offensive rebound, I felt like we still played smart and well. I'm not going to argue with 8-0 on the road in the ACC having had to go to UNC, MD, Clemson, Va Tech, FSU, Ga Tech....Not bad at all. there aren't many teams in any conference that could pull this off.

[moonpie23]

Admiral Akbar sends his congratulations....


and i concur...

[NYBri]

Couple of rebounds and then throwing it back up when clock was the issue. Curry and Ryan were the culprits. Just not thinking.

Glad for the 8-0 on the road, but sloppy end.

On to Saturday and the ACC regular season championship on the line.

GTHC!

[Chris Randolph]

From my seat in the living room I saw Andre get his shot blocked. Then he proceeded to let his man beat him off the dribble two times and then drop kick the ball over to Wake. I don't know if he was in foul trouble, but he sure got the hook pretty quicky not to return. GoDuke!

That's what I saw from my seat in the living room as well. A comfy seat for the most part, then it got a little warm and uncomfortable when Duke's nap time started. Gl

[lotusland]

I'm glad we held on but I could have lived without the State impression at the end. Maybe a somewhat close call like this will keep us from being complacent going into Saturday's game.

[MCFinARL]

Each time he got put in the game in the 2nd half he did one of 3 things (sometimes all 3 during one stint on the court): get beat off the dribble for a layup, miss an open shot, turn it over. He is a shooter so when he misses OPEN looks and doesn't play much defense, he is a liability

Well, this explanation would be more convincing if Andre had actually taken any shots in the second half. But since he didn't (at least according to the ESPN play by play), it's not actually possible that he did all three of these things in the same stint on the court in the 2nd half.

[superdave]

I thought the 2nd half was important for Mason. He was not finishing plays and not getting the ball a whole lot. But he was hitting his free throws and continued to work. This was the sort of game that showed his maturity. He did not disappear but kept doing his job setting screens and playing good defense. Finally, he hits a few big free throws and has a key bucket down the stretch. That's got to feel good for him, to break out of a little slump after grinding out an up-an-down, guard-oriented game that was not in his wheelhouse. Good for him.

Seth Curry is officially good at taking his man off the dribble. This is an excellent development for the Blue Devils.

Miles is officially good at rebounding and this is also excellent for the Blue Devils.

I was hoping for a better, more confidence building finish, but a win on the road in conference is never a given. I'll take it. Time for those sob's down the road.

[gep]

Seriously, this has been happening for three years now and you are suddenly made aware....


Well... I've seen it awhile too... just was wondering if someone has more current insight into what's going on.:confused: (sorry if I just stated the obvious)

[Greg_Newton]

Congrats on an undefeated ACC road season! I've come to expect games like this, so whatever. Surprised and a little disappointed Gbinije didn't get a little more burn; really, he would have been the perfect guy to guard their undersized, mobile, hot-shooting PF who was abusing Mase and Ryan early. But Gbinije left him to help on a fast break early on and gave up a 3, and never saw the court again. I suppose K's going to run with the horses he has at this point, and just wants to get the most reps with them as possible at this point.

Re: Andre - the only thing that drives me crazy about him is his defensive slides. A shooter is going to be streaky, so that doesn't bother me, but he seems to completely forget this extremely fundamental aspect of basketball at times. There was one time in particular today where he was iso'd 30 feet from the basket, D'ing up McKie (I think), and instead of sliding laterally when McKie made his move, he just turned and stood up straight. We do this too often anyway, which I generally excuse as necessary turning-and-chasing due to lack of lateral quickness. However, McKie hadn't turned the corner on Dre when he stood up, and he didn't even try to stay in front of him. Not one slide. Love the kid, but I wonder what he's thinking sometimes... :confused:

Anyway, I thought our defense continued to look much better for the first 28 minutes tonight. Wake may have helped us a bit in that respect, but it was our third game in six days. W's a W.

Hope Curry's knee and Kelly's ankle are alright, as they both tweaked them in the 2nd half. I was surprised Curry came back.

[jipops]

I thought the 2nd half was important for Mason. He was not finishing plays and not getting the ball a whole lot. But he was hitting his free throws and continued to work. This was the sort of game that showed his maturity. He did not disappear but kept doing his job setting screens and playing good defense. Finally, he hits a few big free throws and has a key bucket down the stretch. That's got to feel good for him, to break out of a little slump after grinding out an up-an-down, guard-oriented game that was not in his wheelhouse. Good for him.

He got the ball enough to get to the free throw line for 9 attempts. I thought Mason got plenty of touches in this one, he looked to be one of the main focal points. But once again he strangely had problems finishing plays. Even when he has the ball underneath with the defender on his hip he takes forever to get the ball up to the rim. Something must be going on with him mentally right now.

[MCFinARL]

I think Coach K has decided Andre is either on or off. He's either into the game, playing hard and making shots or his not crisp and mistake prone. You can usually tell if he's got it or not and his minutes are earned accordingly.

This makes some sense. I gather he had one very brief stretch in the second half that I missed that got him pulled again. That being said, this seems like a vicious circle to me. Earlier in the season, it seemed like Andre had a little more leeway--a slip or two, or a missed shot that wasn't a mistake to take, wouldn't automatically get him pulled, and he would usually settle down and make some contributions. If you know that any error will get you pulled, couldn't that make you so anxious that errors are almost inevitable?

I feel like the team will probably need some good games from Andre down the stretch. If he feels the coaches have no confidence in him, thus has no confidence in himself, what are the chances he will be able to come through?

[Billy Dat]

Congrats on an undefeated ACC road season! I've come to expect games like this, so whatever.

Agree. Amazing that we go 8-0 on the road. The offense actually seemed fluid for long stretches. The D is up to 54 on KenPom. Bring on the Holes!

[g-money]

Our big guys got excellent looks underneath but once again, Mason specifically, had trouble finishing around the basket. This again creates the illusion that we rely on the perimeter too heavily. It almost looks like Mason's hurt because it doesn't even appear to be getting any lift. Whatever it is, it needs to be gone by Saturday.

Jipops, would you mind elaborating a bit here? I could not watch the game (don't get ESPNU) but from the box score it looks like Miles and Mason only attempted 7 shots combined. Were some of Mason's attempts discounted because he was fouled in the act of shooting?

While trying not to harp too much after a win, I will say that I really hope we're not abandoning the balanced inside-outside approach we took earlier in the year. We beat some very good teams early in the season this way, and it seems like a game against Wake would have been a perfect opportunity to get our bigs a tuneup before facing a much better frontline on Saturday. Again though, I could be totally off on our actual strategy, since all I could do was follow gametracker and read the box score.

[-bdbd]

Congrats to the team on the undefeated ACC road slate this year. That is a great accomplishment.

Now, we have GOT to tighten things up down the stretch in these games and absolutely put the nail in the coffin. You keep letting "left-for-dead," lesser opponents get back into it and sooner or later it is going to bite you in the arse. So frustrating.

Very solid outing by Seth (I like the maturity/leadership he's developed this season), Miles (steady, if unspectacular, as always) and Kelly (though his defense was weak, and the immediate 3-pt-shot upon Duke getting the offensive rebound with 1:30 remaining was not smart at all).

Give Wake some credit for fighting back in the last 9 minutes. They made some great plays, difficult shots, and actually played some decent D. But, GEEEZ, that should not happen in late-Feb to an experienced top-4 team versus an also-ran conference opponent. I do expect K to get after 'em in practice the next few days. That sort of effort/performance won't get 'er done vs NC@ch on Saturday. :eek:

BTW, agree with the posters puzzled by MP2's recent apparent drop in assertiveness. Not sure what is going on, but certainly wouldn't have predicted two months ago that MP1 would be the dominant frontline player for Duke entering March... He (MP2) certainly has the physical tools to be hugely more impactful by now.

[Greg_Newton]

Wonder what greybeard would have to say about Mason's tension/core tightness issues, or whatever complicated mechanisms he was explaining re: Miles. It seems Mason has recently inherited this tendency to tense every muscle in his body and rock his weight back on his heels whenever he prepares to go up around the basket, which has seemed to really limit his fluidity and explosiveness recently. Maybe Mason can awaken a little bit of his freshman year self, who would just try to dunk everything, without a care in the world...

[dyedwab]

He got the ball enough to get to the free throw line for 9 attempts. I thought Mason got plenty of touches in this one, he looked to be one of the main focal points. But once again he strangely had problems finishing plays. Even when he has the ball underneath with the defender on his hip he takes forever to get the ball up to the rim. Something must be going on with him mentally right now.

Slightly different take. I just think that Mason isn't that physically strong, at least compared to the guys guarding him. I think it takes him forever, as you rightly say, to get the ball up, because he needs to gather himself to fight through the defense. I was impressed with Mason's FT shooting - and his resilience even though he didn't make shots. Mason is very fast and agile for a big guy - I just don't think he's very strong.

[hq2]

Then our guys fell asleep. I actually thought I saw a couple of them wearing jammies on court.

Yeah, pretty sloppy stretch there for a while. The fellas snapped out of it in time to make plays (a number of them, in fact)
and close out the game. 8-0 on the road with this team is pretty good. Nice to see a big RK game; been a little while since
we've seen one of those. We'll take it. On to Carolina!

[wilko]

Wonder what greybeard would have to say about Mason's tension/core tightness issues, or whatever complicated mechanisms he was explaining re: Miles. It seems Mason has recently inherited this tendency to tense every muscle in his body and rock his weight back on his heels whenever he prepares to go up around the basket, which has seemed to really limit his fluidity and explosiveness recently. Maybe Mason can awaken a little bit of his freshman year self, who would just try to dunk everything, without a care in the world...

My guess is that he's collecting himself to absorb the contact. and thinking too far ahead about the ensuing free throws.

Personally I'd love to see him and Miles attack the rim with such ferocity to deliver a compound fracture to the arm of any defender in the way. I might even consider it successful if it resulted in 5 straight offensive fouls.

[throatybeard]

Wonder what greybeard would have to say about Mason's tension/core tightness issues, or whatever complicated mechanisms he was explaining re: Miles. It seems Mason has recently inherited this tendency to tense every muscle in his body and rock his weight back on his heels whenever he prepares to go up around the basket, which has seemed to really limit his fluidity and explosiveness recently. Maybe Mason can awaken a little bit of his freshman year self, who would just try to dunk everything, without a care in the world...

I think we need to lower Mason's pelvis and remove the track around it.

Wait...wrong guy.

[Chris Randolph]

Well, this explanation would be more convincing if Andre had actually taken any shots in the second half. But since he didn't (at least according to the ESPN play by play), it's not actually possible that he did all three of these things in the same stint on the court in the 2nd half.

Ok. So he did 2 of the 3. Shame on me for being wrong

He did or didn't do enough that Coach K didn't feel he deserved the playing time over guys who were doing more with their time.

[FellowTraveler]

This makes some sense. I gather he had one very brief stretch in the second half that I missed that got him pulled again. That being said, this seems like a vicious circle to me. Earlier in the season, it seemed like Andre had a little more leeway--a slip or two, or a missed shot that wasn't a mistake to take, wouldn't automatically get him pulled, and he would usually settle down and make some contributions. If you know that any error will get you pulled, couldn't that make you so anxious that errors are almost inevitable?

I feel like the team will probably need some good games from Andre down the stretch. If he feels the coaches have no confidence in him, thus has no confidence in himself, what are the chances he will be able to come through?

After lighting up FSU in the first half, Dawkins got very little playing time down the stretch in the second half, then got a total of 21 minutes of playing time in the next two games. I don't know whether Dawkins thinks the coaches have no confidence in him, but if he does, I can see why.

No, Dawkins didn't look particularly good today. (He wasn't alone in that -- Thornton, for example, was on court for much of the second-half meltdown, one highlight of which was Tyler dribbling the ball off his own foot, out of bounds, to help prolong Wake's run. He remained on the court.) Dawkins did have some poor defensive play -- and he also played very good defense on at least a couple of possessions, one of which unfortunately ended with his man hitting a very tough contested fallaway jumper as the shot clock ran down. And no, he didn't shoot poorly; he made 1 of 3 three-pointers, which is the number you'd expect him to make given three attempts.

Most of all, though, he just didn't play enough to assess his performance. I reject the idea -- popular among announcers, fans, and, I suspect, Duke coaches -- that you can tell in his first 180 seconds of court time whether Dawkins is going to play well or poorly going forward. Players are not robots. They do not perform perfectly consistently. A few minutes do not tell us with any real certainty how they are likely to perform over the next 25 -- particularly if they are not primary ball-handlers and thus have relatively little control over what happens in those few minutes.

I know, I know: With Andre, it's different. You can just tell whether he showed up that day based on his first couple of minutes. Like against Michigan State. Ah, but in the first 2.5 minutes of the Michigan State game, Dawkins missed a three and a layup. Two minutes later, he turned the ball over. Eight minutes into the game, he was 2-5 shooting with a turnover. That's the kind of start that leads a lot of people to conclude "he doesn't have it today; he doesn't deserve PT." He finished with 26 points on 15 shots. Against Clemson, Dawkins missed his first three shots. He just didn't have it that day; better bench him -- except that he then hit 7 of his next 9 shots to finish with 24 points on 12 shots. In the first three minutes of the first Wake game, Dawkins had a turnover and was 0-1 shooting. Ten minutes in, he was 1-3 with a turnover. His head clearly wasn't in the game; better sit him until he becomes more consistent. Oh, wait -- he finished the game with 21 points on 13 shots.

[MCFinARL]

Ok. So he did 2 of the 3. Shame on me for being wrong

He did or didn't do enough that Coach K didn't feel he deserved the playing time over guys who were doing more with their time.

Sorry. I'm tired and you seemed to me to take such pleasure in being snarky in your reply to my original post that I decided to be snarky back--not really necessary on my part. Clearly Coach K didn't feel he deserved the time--I was more trying to get a picture of why, as I saw other players make mistakes or look very sloppy and not get pulled. But as you point out, perhaps Andre's mistakes came in clusters.

[Verga3]

I think Coach K has decided Andre is either on or off. He's either into the game, playing hard and making shots or his not crisp and mistake prone. You can usually tell if he's got it or not and his minutes are earned accordingly.

Could very well be. Coach K is the chessmaster when it comes to season-long strategic planning for his guys.

We likely have no true idea of the permutations and dynamics of player decisions. I trust Coach K to make the right decisions with his team. Andre can certainly improve his intensity on D at times, but at the end of the day, he is the chessmaster's Knight. Every move is for 3.

[Chris Randolph]

After lighting up FSU in the first half, Dawkins got very little playing time down the stretch in the second half, then got a total of 21 minutes of playing time in the next two games. I don't know whether Dawkins thinks the coaches have no confidence in him, but if he does, I can see why.

No, Dawkins didn't look particularly good today. (He wasn't alone in that -- Thornton, for example, was on court for much of the second-half meltdown, one highlight of which was Tyler dribbling the ball off his own foot, out of bounds, to help prolong Wake's run. He remained on the court.) Dawkins did have some poor defensive play -- and he also played very good defense on at least a couple of possessions, one of which unfortunately ended with his man hitting a very tough contested fallaway jumper as the shot clock ran down. And no, he didn't shoot poorly; he made 1 of 3 three-pointers, which is the number you'd expect him to make given three attempts.

Most of all, though, he just didn't play enough to assess his performance. I reject the idea -- popular among announcers, fans, and, I suspect, Duke coaches -- that you can tell in his first 180 seconds of court time whether Dawkins is going to play well or poorly going forward. Players are not robots. They do not perform perfectly consistently. A few minutes do not tell us with any real certainty how they are likely to perform over the next 25 -- particularly if they are not primary ball-handlers and thus have relatively little control over what happens in those few minutes.

I know, I know: With Andre, it's different. You can just tell whether he showed up that day based on his first couple of minutes. Like against Michigan State. Ah, but in the first 2.5 minutes of the Michigan State game, Dawkins missed a three and a layup. Two minutes later, he turned the ball over. Eight minutes into the game, he was 2-5 shooting with a turnover. That's the kind of start that leads a lot of people to conclude "he doesn't have it today; he doesn't deserve PT." He finished with 26 points on 15 shots. Against Clemson, Dawkins missed his first three shots. He just didn't have it that day; better bench him -- except that he then hit 7 of his next 9 shots to finish with 24 points on 12 shots. In the first three minutes of the first Wake game, Dawkins had a turnover and was 0-1 shooting. Ten minutes in, he was 1-3 with a turnover. His head clearly wasn't in the game; better sit him until he becomes more consistent. Oh, wait -- he finished the game with 21 points on 13 shots.

I understand the point of your post. But I'm willing to bet that more goes into the decision of a player's minutes than what we as fans get a glimpse of during a game. We have no idea what is going on outside of what we see twice a week for 4 hours. I trust that Coach K knows what he is doing and what is best for the kid and team

[Chris Randolph]

Sorry. I'm tired and you seemed to me to take such pleasure in being snarky in your reply to my original post that I decided to be snarky back--not really necessary on my part. Clearly Coach K didn't feel he deserved the time--I was more trying to get a picture of why, as I saw other players make mistakes or look very sloppy and not get pulled. But as you point out, perhaps Andre's mistakes came in clusters.

It's cool I wasn't taking any pleasure in my post. Was just stating what Andre did with his minutes in the 2nd half (of which I was wrong about the shots)

[MCFinARL]

After lighting up FSU in the first half, Dawkins got very little playing time down the stretch in the second half, then got a total of 21 minutes of playing time in the next two games. I don't know whether Dawkins thinks the coaches have no confidence in him, but if he does, I can see why.

No, Dawkins didn't look particularly good today. (He wasn't alone in that -- Thornton, for example, was on court for much of the second-half meltdown, one highlight of which was Tyler dribbling the ball off his own foot, out of bounds, to help prolong Wake's run. He remained on the court.) Dawkins did have some poor defensive play -- and he also played very good defense on at least a couple of possessions, one of which unfortunately ended with his man hitting a very tough contested fallaway jumper as the shot clock ran down. And no, he didn't shoot poorly; he made 1 of 3 three-pointers, which is the number you'd expect him to make given three attempts.

Most of all, though, he just didn't play enough to assess his performance. I reject the idea -- popular among announcers, fans, and, I suspect, Duke coaches -- that you can tell in his first 180 seconds of court time whether Dawkins is going to play well or poorly going forward. Players are not robots. They do not perform perfectly consistently. A few minutes do not tell us with any real certainty how they are likely to perform over the next 25 -- particularly if they are not primary ball-handlers and thus have relatively little control over what happens in those few minutes.

I know, I know: With Andre, it's different. You can just tell whether he showed up that day based on his first couple of minutes. Like against Michigan State. Ah, but in the first 2.5 minutes of the Michigan State game, Dawkins missed a three and a layup. Two minutes later, he turned the ball over. Eight minutes into the game, he was 2-5 shooting with a turnover. That's the kind of start that leads a lot of people to conclude "he doesn't have it today; he doesn't deserve PT." He finished with 26 points on 15 shots. Against Clemson, Dawkins missed his first three shots. He just didn't have it that day; better bench him -- except that he then hit 7 of his next 9 shots to finish with 24 points on 12 shots. In the first three minutes of the first Wake game, Dawkins had a turnover and was 0-1 shooting. Ten minutes in, he was 1-3 with a turnover. His head clearly wasn't in the game; better sit him until he becomes more consistent. Oh, wait -- he finished the game with 21 points on 13 shots.

Thanks for this post, which says what I have been thinking more clearly than I have been able to think it, much less say it. I remember the defensive sequence you describe--he was right on his man all the way, disrupted his flow, and then was scored over anyway--bad luck. There is no law that says the universe has to reward Andre Dawkins, or anyone else for that matter, when he plays good defense, but it would have been nice.

I get that Coach K loves Tyler Thornton, and I get that Thornton works hard and is scrappy. But I agree that, unlike in the last game, he didn't look all that great today, especially during the stretch when the lead was shrinking in the second half. And while he has come up with a few clutch shots this season, he just can't contribute on offense like Andre--he had the same field goal stat (1 for 3) in 30 minutes that Andre had in 11. While I know they aren't playing the same position, Tyler does seem to be the person who is picking up the minutes Andre is losing. In the VaTech game, that was probably a good exchange, but today--and going forward--I don't know. As Kedsy has observed in another thread, when Andre is on the court he opens up opportunities for Austin, Seth, etc. in addition to the points he scores himself.

[snowdenscold]

Jipops, would you mind elaborating a bit here? I could not watch the game (don't get ESPNU) but from the box score it looks like Miles and Mason only attempted 7 shots combined. Were some of Mason's attempts discounted because he was fouled in the act of shooting?


Yes, quite a few in fact. I don't have the box score or play-by-play in front of me, but I'd guess he was fouled maybe 5 times shooting, but only converted the layup on 1 of them (the possible 'charge' play).

[gumbomoop]

.... Mason got plenty of touches in this one, he looked to be one of the main focal points. But once again he [1] strangely had problems finishing plays. Even when he has the ball underneath with the defender on his hip he takes forever to get the ball up to the rim. Something must be going on with him [1] mentally right now.


It seems Mason has recently inherited this [2] tendency to tense every muscle in his body and rock his weight back on his heels whenever he prepares to go up around the basket, which has seemed to really limit his fluidity and explosiveness recently.


.... it takes him forever ... to get the ball up, because he [3] needs to gather himself to fight through the defense.... I just don't think he's very strong.


My guess is that he's [4] collecting himself to absorb the contact.

I have posted a number of times on this problem, originally as a sort of joking response on the "Mason needs to shoot more" thread back in December. My little joke was, yes, he needs to shoot instead of waiting to get fouled, so he then has to shoot free throws instead of relatively easy buckets.

IMO, all the tag-quoted posters raise relevant issues, but without identifying what I see as the fundamental problem: when close to the basket, Mason almost always takes a rhythm dribble, which allows 2 defenders time to converge on him, either to foul him, or to discombobulate him in some way. Mason leaves easy points on the floor every game.

Thus [1] his strange mental block has something to do with his felt need, over and over, despite generally poor results, to take that rhythm dribble. It does seem to be some sort of [2] tension-mitigating thing with him, but it's wasteful energy. In [3] gathering and [4] collecting himself, he allows the opponent, usually 2, to gather around him and collect themselves.

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

[LSanders]

For what it's worth, here are Coach's comments:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

"People have graded our performances all year instead of grading our record," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "People want to nitpick -- `You didn't play well for these 4 minutes,' and `You only won by this' and something -- instead of saying, `They've done a good job, man. They've done a great job.'

"To play in a game of that magnitude before the tournaments is huge," he added.

[uh_no]

For what it's worth, here are Coach's comments:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

"People have graded our performances all year instead of grading our record," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "People want to nitpick -- `You didn't play well for these 4 minutes,' and `You only won by this' and something -- instead of saying, `They've done a good job, man. They've done a great job.'

"To play in a game of that magnitude before the tournaments is huge," he added.

Didn't he himself say a few weeks ago that he didn't care if we won games if we weren't doing it right?

[Kedsy]

Each time he got put in the game in the 2nd half he did one of 3 things (sometimes all 3 during one stint on the court): get beat off the dribble for a layup, miss an open shot, turn it over. He is a shooter so when he misses OPEN looks and doesn't play much defense, he is a liability

He was only put in the game twice in the second half, for a grand total of one minute and 14 seconds. He did turn the ball over each time and was immediately pulled. I agree with those who say he was on a very short leash, and in that situation it's really hard for anybody to perform well.


Didn't he himself say a few weeks ago that he didn't care if we won games if we weren't doing it right?

Yes, he said that when he thought that message would best motivate his team. Now I suppose he thinks the new message will best motivate the team.

[AsiaMinor]

I'm a huge fan of Andre Dawkins and would love to see him on the court, playing his best all of the time. Even more than that, I trust Coach K. And, since we don't know what is said on the bench, or what goes on in practice we cannot accurately judge what is going on. I do hope it gets resolved. We need the best of all of them for Saturday night and beyond.

[Devilsfan]

I think we realized we were playing Wake Forrest last night and stopped playing until K politely reminded us.
Guess everyone started to think about this Saturday night.

[roywhite]

I have posted a number of times on this problem, originally as a sort of joking response on the "Mason needs to shoot more" thread back in December. My little joke was, yes, he needs to shoot instead of waiting to get fouled, so he then has to shoot free throws instead of relatively easy buckets.

IMO, all the tag-quoted posters raise relevant issues, but without identifying what I see as the fundamental problem: when close to the basket, Mason almost always takes a rhythm dribble, which allows 2 defenders time to converge on him, either to foul him, or to discombobulate him in some way. Mason leaves easy points on the floor every game.

Thus [1] his strange mental block has something to do with his felt need, over and over, despite generally poor results, to take that rhythm dribble. It does seem to be some sort of [2] tension-mitigating thing with him, but it's wasteful energy. In [3] gathering and [4] collecting himself, he allows the opponent, usually 2, to gather around him and collect themselves.

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

Agree with this observation, and those that contributed to it.

I'm reminded of the great ability that Antawn Jamison (one of my least disliked Tarheels) had around the basket to get shots off quickly; the final product was a layup or very short shot, but he was so good at catching the ball and releasing the shot quickly that he seldom missed or was blocked. If the staff doesn't want to show Mason any Jamison tapes, they could select some Carlos Boozer footage from his Duke days. While some players are much better at this skill of quick and accurate shots near the basket than others, it still seems to be a learned skill that can be greatly improved.

[Starter]

Agree with this observation, and those that contributed to it.

I'm reminded of the great ability that Antawn Jamison (one of my least disliked Tarheels) had around the basket to get shots off quickly; the final product was a layup or very short shot, but he was so good at catching the ball and releasing the shot quickly that he seldom missed or was blocked. If the staff doesn't want to show Mason any Jamison tapes, they could select some Carlos Boozer footage from his Duke days. While some players are much better at this skill of quick and accurate shots near the basket than others, it still seems to be a learned skill that can be greatly improved.

I actually saw Mason as potentially an Amar'e Stoudemire type on the college level, which is to say a potential problem in the pick and roll. Much like Stoudemire this season -- until Linsanity broke out -- I do feel it hurts Mase that he doesn't play with a true pick and roll point guard, which are admittedly hard to come by on the college level. It's just, that would work to his strengths more. I enjoyed watching Mason hit those hook shots early in the season, but it always seemed like he had to work harder than he should have to get position in the post.

By the way, I'm so with you on Jamison. I met him a couple times at the mall down there, what a class act, and I loved his game. Mason could certainly do a lot worse than emulating that quick catch and turnaround for the baby hook, though I don't recall anyone close to as good at that as Jamison was. It's remarkable they didn't win in 1998. Of course, with UNC losing to Utah, it's remarkable Duke didn't win either.

[Starter]

I don't have much on this game in particular, just that this has been an amazing coaching job for Krzyzewski, up there with his best. To lose his three best players and currently be 26-4, undefeated on the road in the conference, to have beaten the teams they've beaten, he's done an amazing job. I still remember the threads early in the season saying this season was going to be insufferable, and I recall thinking that they should try rooting for the Knicks sometime! Duke consistently gets good players and good kids, they always have a very good record, they have the best coach and there's always a lot to like about these teams.

As always, this isn't to say I've agreed with literally everything Krzyzewski has done this year, and I haven't exactly been shy about it, perhaps to a fault. I've always maintained that just because he's a legendary coach in the midst of a great year doesn't mean we mere mortals can't maintain opinions that certain things can be done differently in terms of strategy and player deployment. But taken on the whole, I'd put this season up with his best for creating a cohesive unit out of a ragtag -- at least for Duke -- group of players. When it comes down to it, you wouldn't want anyone else shaping your program and guiding your team.

[Scorp4me]

While I know they aren't playing the same position, Tyler does seem to be the person who is picking up the minutes Andre is losing. In the VaTech game, that was probably a good exchange, but today--and going forward--I don't know.

I love Andre, I mean how can you not. And off the bench often times he is instant offense. But I think the team is simply a better team with Thornton on the floor. Earlier it was Duke can't win without Cook playing more than Thornton. Now it's Duke can't win without Andre playing more than Thornton. But all along they keep winning which is just fine with me! :)

[nocilla]

I actually saw Mason as potentially an Amar'e Stoudemire type on the college level, which is to say a potential problem in the pick and roll. Much like Stoudemire this season -- until Linsanity broke out -- I do feel it hurts Mase that he doesn't play with a true pick and roll point guard, which are admittedly hard to come by on the college level. It's just, that would work to his strengths more. I enjoyed watching Mason hit those hook shots early in the season, but it always seemed like he had to work harder than he should have to get position in the post.

I agree and it looks like Cook is the closest we have to a pick and roll point guard. It seemed like there was a stretch in the 2nd half last night where Curry and Rivers were getting picks by Mason and he would be open rolling to the basket but they never even looked in his direction. Then Cook came in and passed to Mason off the pick and roll 2 or 3 times. One of them led to the 3 point play which was good but almost a charge call. I am a little concerned that Mason rolling to the basket with a head of steam will lead to some offensive fouls but I also think he can get some easy baskets if the guard makes an effort to find him. Curry and Rivers being scorers aren't naturally going to look for the pass, so I don't know that it will change much. Thornton isn't in the position to create very often so I don't think he gets many pick and roll opportunities. Cook is really the only guy that will look to the roller, but his minutes are unpredictable.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Each time he got put in the game in the 2nd half he did one of 3 things (sometimes all 3 during one stint on the court): get beat off the dribble for a layup, miss an open shot, turn it over. He is a shooter so when he misses OPEN looks and doesn't play much defense, he is a liability

Yeah Andre did do all the aforementioned things but so did his teammates at times but yet they remain in the game. I'm not making excuses for Andre or anything but the guy was busting his tail trying to get opened and wasn't passed the ball on several occassions (example, Duke 3 on 1 break and Cook tries passing the ball in a direct line to Rivers with the defender in front, rather than Andre open on the wing leading to a turnover). So what if Andre misses one shot, feed him and he can give you 4, 5, 6 in a row. Maybe I have blinders on since Andre is one of my favorite players but I don't see Coach K treating any other players as he does Andre. If he treated Rivers like he does Andre then Rivers wouldn't average double figures and his playing time would be significantly diminished....(I'm just saying...). In addition, Andre's defense is no less a "liability" than any other perimeter player and to be honest all our perimeter players lack great lateral quickness and get beat off the dribble (at times) and not "just" Andre.

[wilko]

Thornton isn't in the position to create very often so I don't think he gets many pick and roll opportunities. Cook is really the only guy that will look to the roller, but his minutes are unpredictable.

I tend to think that Quinn got a bit more burn last night due to Josh being out. True, his minutes ARE unpredictable. But they are also a reward for seizing the opportunity and playing well when called on, predicated on good practices. He had some setback earlier (flu bug?) as I recall so maybe he is finally hitting his stride again after that.

I think part of whats put a lid on the MP's productivity is the lack of an experienced pure distributor getting them the ball in optimum spots/situations on the floor. So, if Quinn can consistently add this element to our O even in spots? "better late than never" I say.

[wilko]

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

Your musings inspired a novel notion...
Perhaps Mason is doing exactly as he is supposed to?

Your assumption (and Mine as the common Fan) is that we are supposed to take the points. Could there be any intent to trying to draw the fouls? Clearing the lane of a space eater in the post, making them tentative and less aggressive in their movements. There is a strategy element to that aspect of it that I can appreciate.

Is anyone in a position to elaborate? Perhaps I am trying too hard to rationalize?

[jipops]

I have posted a number of times on this problem, originally as a sort of joking response on the "Mason needs to shoot more" thread back in December. My little joke was, yes, he needs to shoot instead of waiting to get fouled, so he then has to shoot free throws instead of relatively easy buckets.

IMO, all the tag-quoted posters raise relevant issues, but without identifying what I see as the fundamental problem: when close to the basket, Mason almost always takes a rhythm dribble, which allows 2 defenders time to converge on him, either to foul him, or to discombobulate him in some way. Mason leaves easy points on the floor every game.

Thus [1] his strange mental block has something to do with his felt need, over and over, despite generally poor results, to take that rhythm dribble. It does seem to be some sort of [2] tension-mitigating thing with him, but it's wasteful energy. In [3] gathering and [4] collecting himself, he allows the opponent, usually 2, to gather around him and collect themselves.

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

I think you're mostly on it here. The rhythm dribble has fundamental issues providing the defenders the ability to collapse back on him as he attempts the shot as well as putting the ball low enough for the defender to strip or block. I do think Mason has issues with balance which explain his poor footwork. But I still maintain there are some mental issues going on. He's been putting the ball on the floor in the paint all season but now it seems to be going up to the rim weaker and slower. Last night he was struggling to score against lesser defenders even. I don't think the non-fundamental rhythm dribble is the entire problem here because he has been quite successful in the past even when using it. I just think there has to be something else going on, his body language seems different right now. Even in one of the timeout huddles last night he didn't seem as intent and focused but that could easily just be me mis-reading him.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

One thing I feel like I have noticed the last several games, and last night in particular, is that Mason is posting pretty far out. Far more than you would want him to do. Don't get why he is not fighting for better position closer to the rim where he can make a better, more fluid move. We've seem him do it... nice drop step here, nice up and under there. But no consistency on that lately. I think his post up position has been very limiting and seems to get him in trouble when he feels like he has to back his guy down on the dribble.

[Chris Randolph]

I posted this earlier in the thread about MAYBE why Andre has a quick leash some games:


I understand the point of your post. But I'm willing to bet that more goes into the decision of a player's minutes than what we as fans get a glimpse of during a game. We have no idea what is going on outside of what we see twice a week for 4 hours. I trust that Coach K knows what he is doing and what is best for the kid and team

At times I too question why Dawkins gets limited minutes in games. I love the 3 point shot and love that he can fill it up from 3 so that clouds my judgment at times of why he should be playing. But if you take off the "Andre colored glasses" and look at his whole game, he brings one thing: 3 pt shooting (yes, he is really good at it). He cannot create his own shot and isn't the style of player to get other people involved. Defensively, he is arguably our worst perimeter defender amongst our guards (not a knock, just stating what I believe to be fact). So if you combine these factors with the POTENTIAL for negative things we as fans don't see outside of the games (above post) then MAYBE that is why he gets a quick leash/limited minutes some games.

Just trying to be reasonable

[roywhite]

One thing I feel like I have noticed the last several games, and last night in particular, is that Mason is posting pretty far out. Far more than you would want him to do. Don't get why he is not fighting for better position closer to the rim where he can make a better, more fluid move. We've seem him do it... nice drop step here, nice up and under there. But no consistency on that lately. I think his post up position has been very limiting and seems to get him in trouble when he feels like he has to back his guy down on the dribble.

Perhaps mentioned before, but Mason's offense is better suited to a more open floor, or a fast break offense. He tends to get more opportunities also when Quinn Cook is running the point, both from pushing the ball up court and from better execution of the pick and roll. But, in a trade-off, this team seems to have a greater need for the defense that Tyler Thornton provides, which results in more of a half-court offensive game and fewer open opportunities for Mason.

On the positive side, Mason's rebounding and defense are still needed very much, and his improvement at the foul line is a big plus.

[gumbomoop]

On the positive side, Mason's rebounding and defense are still needed very much, and his improvement at the foul line is a big plus.

Yes, and I want to say I appreciate this reminder and other positive posts about Mason throughout the season. Although I think my criticisms of him have been of the constructive variety, I sometimes get so frustrated with the thunder-dumbs [here I may be blaming Mason for some of Miles's stuff] and rhythm dribbles that I just temporarily forget how much he's improved this season. His FT-shooting last eve was solid, smooth, almost.

And speaking of constructive criticism, I agree with those of you have noted that sometimes Mason works like crazy to establish good position, but then can't get the basic 45-degree entry pass from the guard. I'm always amazed at the high percentage of college guards and wings who cannot, or cannot consistently, execute a simple entry pass. It's but one of several reasons to admire Kendall Marshall, who not only gets it into the post, but with perfect pace, spin, location. When Marshall fails to deliver the entry pass, it's almost shocking; when Mason receives a proper entry pass, it's ..., well, it's noticeable.

[FellowTraveler]

But if you take off the "Andre colored glasses" and look at his whole game, he brings one thing: 3 pt shooting (yes, he is really good at it). He cannot create his own shot and isn't the style of player to get other people involved.

Depends on how you define "get other people involved." True, he is not going to break defenses down off the drive and dish to players who are open as a result. But he isn't a chucker; he very much plays team-oriented offense. He has shown himself to be one of Duke's more willing and competent perimeter players when it comes to making good entry passes into the post. And his presence on the court creates space for his teammates, as his defender rarely sags off him as much as, say, Tyler's does. Dawkins surely has a less well-rounded game than Rivers or Curry, but I don't think it's as one-dimensional as his critics suggest.

EDIT: By the way: I don't think I have "Andre colored glasses." In this thread, for example, I preferred to look at actual data to see if his early-game performance is always as predictive as many seem to assume it is. I tend to think my approach demonstrated the opposite of bias, but others may disagree.

[superdave]

Yes, and I want to say I appreciate this reminder and other positive posts about Mason throughout the season. Although I think my criticisms of him have been of the constructive variety, I sometimes get so frustrated with the thunder-dumbs [here I may be blaming Mason for some of Miles's stuff] and rhythm dribbles that I just temporarily forget how much he's improved this season. His FT-shooting last eve was solid, smooth, almost.

And speaking of constructive criticism, I agree with those of you have noted that sometimes Mason works like crazy to establish good position, but then can't get the basic 45-degree entry pass from the guard. I'm always amazed at the high percentage of college guards and wings who cannot, or cannot consistently, execute a simple entry pass. It's but one of several reasons to admire Kendall Marshall, who not only gets it into the post, but with perfect pace, spin, location. When Marshall fails to deliver the entry pass, it's almost shocking; when Mason receives a proper entry pass, it's ..., well, it's noticeable.

I think Mason is a very mature player right now because he's able to do some of the less exciting part of his job well - like screening and rebounding - even when the offense is not giving him a lot of touches in scoring position. He got the ball last night enough, although he was pushed out from the post more than is ideal or at the top of the key. So I would not characterize those touches as definite scoring opportunities. He also struggled to finish on the inside a few times and that just plain looked bad. But the rest of his game did not drop off. You could see his determination and I really appreciated that last night. I'd love to see him get some more scoring opportunities against Unc as it would open things up for us a bit.

[CDu]

And speaking of constructive criticism, I agree with those of you have noted that sometimes Mason works like crazy to establish good position, but then can't get the basic 45-degree entry pass from the guard. I'm always amazed at the high percentage of college guards and wings who cannot, or cannot consistently, execute a simple entry pass. It's but one of several reasons to admire Kendall Marshall, who not only gets it into the post, but with perfect pace, spin, location. When Marshall fails to deliver the entry pass, it's almost shocking; when Mason receives a proper entry pass, it's ..., well, it's noticeable.

Agree completely. It's tough to continue to fight for position when you aren't going to get a good feed anyway. Rivers doesn't throw that pass at all (instead he'll stop and call for the high screen), and Curry doesn't throw it well. Dawkins is willing, as is Cook. That, combined with the lack of fluidity, post moves, and shooting touch Mason has, account for a lot of his struggles with scoring consistency.

Hopefully that'll all be resolved with another offseason and he'll be a complete force next year. ;)

[FellowTraveler]

Agree completely. It's tough to continue to fight for position when you aren't going to get a good feed anyway.

Though I am at times frustrated that Mason doesn't establish better position, I do agree with this. Another problem that occurred to me this morning (and that probably should have months or years ago) is it's tough to both battle for deep post position while also being responsible for setting screens 22 feet out (and screens under the basket for shooters running baseline.) I don't mean that when Mason is setting a screen on the perimeter he isn't posting up; that's obvious. I mean that when he sets an early screen, that reduces his ability to beat his defender to the post, which is a key part of getting good position -- and that when he does go to the post, he has less luxury than bigs on some other teams do to devote singular focus to fighting for position, as he has to remain prepared to head towards the perimeter to set a screen. That trickle-down effect of an offense that uses bigs heavily as screeners was probably obvious to others, but I don't think I'd previously thought about how it may adversely affect Mason's ability to fight for position.

That said, he could probably still do a better job. And it would be great if he'd be quicker to react when he does get the ball; I recall one play last night when he got the ball deep in the post, back to the basket, pretty much open, as Wake's defense had lost him. He was, however, sporting enough to wait for a defender to come to him before initiating his move.

[rsvman]

Though I am at times frustrated that Mason doesn't establish better position, I do agree with this. Another problem that occurred to me this morning (and that probably should have months or years ago) is it's tough to both battle for deep post position while also being responsible for setting screens 22 feet out (and screens under the basket for shooters running baseline.) I don't mean that when Mason is setting a screen on the perimeter he isn't posting up; that's obvious. I mean that when he sets an early screen, that reduces his ability to beat his defender to the post, which is a key part of getting good position -- and that when he does go to the post, he has less luxury than bigs on some other teams do to devote singular focus to fighting for position, as he has to remain prepared to head towards the perimeter to set a screen. That trickle-down effect of an offense that uses bigs heavily as screeners was probably obvious to others, but I don't think I'd previously thought about how it may adversely affect Mason's ability to fight for position.

...

I hear what you're saying, and I agree that it may be a factor in this offense. However, a high pick doesn't necessarily take a post player out of position to score; it seemed to work pretty well for Karl Malone with the Utah Jazz. To make it work, we would need more emphasis on pick-and-roll, and we would need a quick move to the basket along with crisp passing.

[FellowTraveler]

I hear what you're saying, and I agree that it may be a factor in this offense. However, a high pick doesn't necessarily take a post player out of position to score; it seemed to work pretty well for Karl Malone with the Utah Jazz. To make it work, we would need more emphasis on pick-and-roll, and we would need a quick move to the basket along with crisp passing.

Oh, I totally agree with that. I was addressing the relatively narrow question of establishing low post position.

[MCFinARL]

I love Andre, I mean how can you not. And off the bench often times he is instant offense. But I think the team is simply a better team with Thornton on the floor. Earlier it was Duke can't win without Cook playing more than Thornton. Now it's Duke can't win without Andre playing more than Thornton. But all along they keep winning which is just fine with me! :)

I see your point, though I'm not sure I completely agree. At the very least I acknowledge there is a legitimate argument to be made that the team is better with Thornton on the floor.

I do want to clarify, though, that I didn't mean to suggest that Andre needs to play more than Thornton--just that each of them brings different, and incomplete, skills to the floor and I'd like to see both get substantial minutes in the rotation, with an over 30-minute game for either one probably being the exception rather than the rule. And in particular, I think a lineup with Thornton-Dawkins or Cook-Dawkins would in most cases be more effective than a Thornton-Cook pairing like we saw for a while last night.

[Chris Randolph]

In my opinion, the Mason issue is a schematic and personnel thing. It is obvious when Duke runs sets to get Mason the ball in the post. But the offense is based on the guards. Whether it is penetrate for a layup, penetrate and kick for 3 or run guards off screens, most of the offense is built for our guards to score. I can't complain about this as it has worked fine for this team and many other Duke teams.

I do think Duke gets away from Mason too much at times. But the bulk of Duke's offensive skill is perimeter oriented so you have to play to that strength. If you think back to the last big man Duke threw it into in the post and he scored would be Shelden Williams in 2006. And if you look at that team Duke had one perimeter guy who could score (Redick). So Duke had to go to Shelden

[wk2109]

That said, he could probably still do a better job. And it would be great if he'd be quicker to react when he does get the ball; I recall one play last night when he got the ball deep in the post, back to the basket, pretty much open, as Wake's defense had lost him. He was, however, sporting enough to wait for a defender to come to him before initiating his move.

This was Zoubek's problem for the first 3.5 years of his career until a light bulb seemingly went off and he starting quickly laying the ball in after the catch. I never noticed Mason using the rhythm dribble + repeated pump fakes until recently. With his jumping ability, I wondered why he didn't just catch the ball and flush it on certain plays last night.

[Kedsy]

But if you take off the "Andre colored glasses" and look at his whole game, he brings one thing: 3 pt shooting (yes, he is really good at it). He cannot create his own shot and isn't the style of player to get other people involved.

What you're missing is Andre's defender can never help on D, not even for a moment, which makes it much easier for his teammates to get open looks, both inside and out. Who else on the team can say that? Therefore, Andre's presence in the game brings much more than just his own 3-point shooting.


Defensively, he is arguably our worst perimeter defender amongst our guards (not a knock, just stating what I believe to be fact).

I disagree with this, too. Andre is a better defensive player than Quinn. Also, depending on our opponent, he brings something (size) that Seth, Tyler, and Quinn don't have, and thus against certain teams Andre is a more important defensive player.

[Kedsy]

At this point, we seem to be mostly discussing the pros and cons of Mason and Andre, so let me add this: the Duke team as it is currently constituted is a really good team with a really good record. But other teams don't fear us. Except when Mason and Andre are both clicking, then they fear us. If Andre is getting and hitting his shots, and Mason needs to be double-teamed in the post, we are much better than a really good team; we are borderline unguardable.

Obviously, we need all our top-of-the-rotation players to play well. Without Austin's ability to penetrate, or Miles's rebounding, or Ryan's versatility, or Tyler's defense, or Seth's all-around perimeter game, we'd be less than what we are. But to an extent, all those things are consistent. Even when Ryan isn't hitting his shots or Miles doesn't get a lot of minutes or Seth seems a bit off, the game doesn't seem all that different. But Mason and Andre seem to have on/off switches over their heads. And the game does seem different if they're off. For Duke to be a special team this post-season, it would really help if both switches stayed "on."

[CDu]

Though I am at times frustrated that Mason doesn't establish better position, I do agree with this. Another problem that occurred to me this morning (and that probably should have months or years ago) is it's tough to both battle for deep post position while also being responsible for setting screens 22 feet out (and screens under the basket for shooters running baseline.) I don't mean that when Mason is setting a screen on the perimeter he isn't posting up; that's obvious. I mean that when he sets an early screen, that reduces his ability to beat his defender to the post, which is a key part of getting good position -- and that when he does go to the post, he has less luxury than bigs on some other teams do to devote singular focus to fighting for position, as he has to remain prepared to head towards the perimeter to set a screen. That trickle-down effect of an offense that uses bigs heavily as screeners was probably obvious to others, but I don't think I'd previously thought about how it may adversely affect Mason's ability to fight for position.

That said, he could probably still do a better job. And it would be great if he'd be quicker to react when he does get the ball; I recall one play last night when he got the ball deep in the post, back to the basket, pretty much open, as Wake's defense had lost him. He was, however, sporting enough to wait for a defender to come to him before initiating his move.

I do think the high screen game makes things more challenging for him in terms of posting up. But I think it's more of an issue of mindset of the perimeter players rather than the setting of high screens making it difficult to beat his man to the post.

When Rivers gets the ball on the wing, he almost instinctively signals for the big to come set a screen for him. I don't know that I can remember a single instance in which he looked to pass the ball into the post. He's occasionally shown a willingness to throw an alleyoop or bounce pass to the rolling big man after the screen and drive, but his first instinct always seems to be "how can I score?" I'm not saying that's a bad instinct - just that it doesn't lend itself to creating good post opportunities.

Curry seems more willing to throw an entry pass, but I don't think it's his first instinct and I don't think he's terribly good at it. Thornton is VERY willing, but again I don't think he throws the best entry passes. I'd say Cook and Dawkins have the best combination of capability and willingness, but they get probably the fewest touches (Cook due to playing time, Dawkins due to position/role) of the perimeter guys.

The other issue I think is our style of play (for two reasons). First, because we have such a perimeter oriented offense, we don't have a lot of two-post sets. As I believe greybeard has noted elsewhere, one of the easiest ways to get a big man good position (down low and in front of the rim) is to set screens for the big (either a cross screen or a down screen). But when you generally have four guys looking for perimeter shots, you don't see as many screens set for a big. And second, when you do have the two bigs screening for each other, you have perimeter players whose first instinct is to shoot or create a scoring opportunity for themselves. So the brief opportunity gained by a good screen in the post is usually lost before the perimeter player looks to the post.

Again - this is not meant to be a complaint about our perimeter players. Our offense has been, according to Pomeroy, the 5th most efficient offense in the nation. We're 25-4 with some really impressive wins against about as tough a schedule as can be imagined. So clearly what we've been doing has been fairly effective. It's just that it hasn't necessarily been the most beneficial in terms of creating opportunities for our bigs.

[nocilla]

I agree and it looks like Cook is the closest we have to a pick and roll point guard. It seemed like there was a stretch in the 2nd half last night where Curry and Rivers were getting picks by Mason and he would be open rolling to the basket but they never even looked in his direction. Then Cook came in and passed to Mason off the pick and roll 2 or 3 times. One of them led to the 3 point play which was good but almost a charge call. I am a little concerned that Mason rolling to the basket with a head of steam will lead to some offensive fouls but I also think he can get some easy baskets if the guard makes an effort to find him. Curry and Rivers being scorers aren't naturally going to look for the pass, so I don't know that it will change much. Thornton isn't in the position to create very often so I don't think he gets many pick and roll opportunities. Cook is really the only guy that will look to the roller, but his minutes are unpredictable.

Just to correct myself after watching the top plays from Duke Blue Planet, it was Curry that executed the pick and roll to Mason for the 3 point play. So maybe there is hope for more of this in the future.

[Chris Randolph]

What you're missing is Andre's defender can never help on D, not even for a moment, which makes it much easier for his teammates to get open looks, both inside and out. Who else on the team can say that? Therefore, Andre's presence in the game brings much more than just his own 3-point shooting.



I disagree with this, too. Andre is a better defensive player than Quinn. Also, depending on our opponent, he brings something (size) that Seth, Tyler, and Quinn don't have, and thus against certain teams Andre is a more important defensive player.

I agree that teams cannot help off of Andre and that does make a difference offensively. I can see the argument that Andre defends better than Quinn. But I will give credit to Quinn that in games where we've made comebacks (Miami, NCState) and others his 3-quarter to full court ball pressure was great, something I don't think Andre can do.

Every player has something to add on each end of the floor, if they didn't they would never play. Some can offer more than others on each end. I'm as happy as anyone when Andre is playing with energy and knocking down shots. Coach K knows that Andre can offer a great boost offensively and that Duke needs him to play well for them to reach their highest potential. But there must be something there with Andre that Coach K doesn't agree with (as I've noted in previous posts). And OBVIOUSLY it is something we as fans cannot comprehend or see because we get a tiny glimpse of what goes on

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Yes, and I want to say I appreciate this reminder and other positive posts about Mason throughout the season. Although I think my criticisms of him have been of the constructive variety, I sometimes get so frustrated with the thunder-dumbs [here I may be blaming Mason for some of Miles's stuff] and rhythm dribbles that I just temporarily forget how much he's improved this season. His FT-shooting last eve was solid, smooth, almost.

And speaking of constructive criticism, I agree with those of you have noted that sometimes Mason works like crazy to establish good position, but then can't get the basic 45-degree entry pass from the guard. I'm always amazed at the high percentage of college guards and wings who cannot, or cannot consistently, execute a simple entry pass. It's but one of several reasons to admire Kendall Marshall, who not only gets it into the post, but with perfect pace, spin, location. When Marshall fails to deliver the entry pass, it's almost shocking; when Mason receives a proper entry pass, it's ..., well, it's noticeable.

Very fair point. I yelled at the TV several times last night to get him the ball. Either the guards didn't or they got it there way too late. I'm not a Mason hater. I just want to see some of that fire again. I want to see him get angry! (as Patches O'Houlihan would say... ;))

[g-money]

But other teams don't fear us. Except when Mason and Andre are both clicking, then they fear us. If Andre is getting and hitting his shots, and Mason needs to be double-teamed in the post, we are much better than a really good team; we are borderline unguardable.

I would agree with this. In fact, I would bet that there's a pretty good correlation between Andre scoring above his average and Duke winning comfortably this season. I'm not sure if one of the resident stat gurus on DBR can break that down easily, but that's what I've observed.

With Mason, I agree with a previous poster that he would fare better with a true point guard like Quinn handling the ball. When scorers like Austin and Seth have the ball in their hands, they're usually 90% focused on scoring and passing is a bit of an afterthought (although Austin in particular has improved at this). This is not a knock on either Austin or Seth - they're born to score - but it does hurt our balance IMO.

[NM Duke Fan]

At this point, we seem to be mostly discussing the pros and cons of Mason and Andre, so let me add this: the Duke team as it is currently constituted is a really good team with a really good record. But other teams don't fear us. Except when Mason and Andre are both clicking, then they fear us. If Andre is getting and hitting his shots, and Mason needs to be double-teamed in the post, we are much better than a really good team; we are borderline unguardable.

Obviously, we need all our top-of-the-rotation players to play well. Without Austin's ability to penetrate, or Miles's rebounding, or Ryan's versatility, or Tyler's defense, or Seth's all-around perimeter game, we'd be less than what we are. But to an extent, all those things are consistent. Even when Ryan isn't hitting his shots or Miles doesn't get a lot of minutes or Seth seems a bit off, the game doesn't seem all that different. But Mason and Andre seem to have on/off switches over their heads. And the game does seem different if they're off. For Duke to be a special team this post-season, it would really help if both switches stayed "on."

A succinct and excellent summary. The question is HOW to get them to be more consistent players, especially Andre? When he gets off to a good start, he can be a vital cog the whole game. With Mason, it seems to be a bit more of a recent phenomenon, and hopefully was just a lull in energy and focus.

[bird]

A succinct and excellent summary. The question is HOW to get them to be more consistent players, especially Andre? When he gets off to a good start, he can be a vital cog the whole game. With Mason, it seems to be a bit more of a recent phenomenon, and hopefully was just a lull in energy and focus.

I tend to think that Coach K agrees with you guys. In the depths of this team's defensive depression, at times Andre was not only providing the notable specific examples of bad defense but was doing things that, in the past, might cause Coach K to bury the player on the other end of the bench. Matador defense doesn't start to describe it. But K really stuck with Andre. I have mentally speculated that is in part that Andre gives us something we sorely need on perimeter defense: size. I don't know who else on our team is a physical matchup with Barnes, for example. In addition, at times it seems like Andre has been a slot machine with a high payoff ratio: you keep putting in coins because there is a big payoff often enough to keep you interested. Bottom line, I felt at times that K was investing in Andre, hoping he would round out in terms of defense and consistency, knowing if Andre improved that that would be a major, major improvement for the team as a whole. I do think his defense has gotten better, as has the team's as a whole. Offensively, on the other hand, he still seems like the slot machine: big payoff (Fl State - 22 pts), nothing (VA Tech - 0 pts - zero points!).

[MCFinARL]

At this point, we seem to be mostly discussing the pros and cons of Mason and Andre, so let me add this: the Duke team as it is currently constituted is a really good team with a really good record. But other teams don't fear us. Except when Mason and Andre are both clicking, then they fear us. If Andre is getting and hitting his shots, and Mason needs to be double-teamed in the post, we are much better than a really good team; we are borderline unguardable.

Obviously, we need all our top-of-the-rotation players to play well. Without Austin's ability to penetrate, or Miles's rebounding, or Ryan's versatility, or Tyler's defense, or Seth's all-around perimeter game, we'd be less than what we are. But to an extent, all those things are consistent. Even when Ryan isn't hitting his shots or Miles doesn't get a lot of minutes or Seth seems a bit off, the game doesn't seem all that different. But Mason and Andre seem to have on/off switches over their heads. And the game does seem different if they're off. For Duke to be a special team this post-season, it would really help if both switches stayed "on."

An astute analysis as always. I would have given you pitchforks, instead of commenting, but I need to spread some around first.


I tend to think that Coach K agrees with you guys. In the depths of this team's defensive depression, at times Andre was not only providing the notable specific examples of bad defense but was doing things that, in the past, might cause Coach K to bury the player on the other end of the bench. Matador defense doesn't start to describe it. But K really stuck with Andre. I have mentally speculated that is in part that Andre gives us something we sorely need on perimeter defense: size. I don't know who else on our team is a physical matchup with Barnes, for example. In addition, at times it seems like Andre has been a slot machine with a high payoff ratio: you keep putting in coins because there is a big payoff often enough to keep you interested. Bottom line, I felt at times that K was investing in Andre, hoping he would round out in terms of defense and consistency, knowing if Andre improved that that would be a major, major improvement for the team as a whole. I do think his defense has gotten better, as has the team's as a whole. Offensively, on the other hand, he still seems like the slot machine: big payoff (Fl State - 22 pts), nothing (VA Tech - 0 pts - zero points!).

You make some good points, and there is a logic to what you say about K investing in Andre. I agree, too, that the investment has paid off defensively as, over all, Andre's defense has definitely improved, and he is rebounding more recently as well. But if that is the case, why sell now, just when you are about to need the slot machine payoff the most? Why remove Andre from almost the entire second half of the FSU game when his offense was terrific and his defense was at least okay? Why pull him so quickly in the next two games (especially the Wake game)?

As Fellow Traveler noted earlier, it isn't always the case that Andre's whole night is determined by his first couple of minutes or first couple of shots. Sometimes he picks it up after an early miss and/or turnover. If he doesn't think he will get that opportunity, doesn't that put a lot of pressure--possibly too much pressure--on him to try to do something special early on, resulting in overthinking or taking inadvisable chances?

Chris Randolph of course is right that we (or at least most of us--I can't speak for everyone) don't know what goes on in practice, and that there may be more to this tale than we can see in the games. But it still concerns me.

[COCO]

Speaking from personal experience regarding the ability or not to consistently focus every day in every game, I can't help but wonder if Andre has ever had himself tested for ADHD. In my adulthood I was tested and treated and it has made a huge difference for me. It would explain his walkabouts -- anyone remember Evonne Goolagong?

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

An astute analysis as always. I would have given you pitchforks, instead of commenting, but I need to spread some around first.



You make some good points, and there is a logic to what you say about K investing in Andre. I agree, too, that the investment has paid off defensively as, over all, Andre's defense has definitely improved, and he is rebounding more recently as well. But if that is the case, why sell now, just when you are about to need the slot machine payoff the most? Why remove Andre from almost the entire second half of the FSU game when his offense was terrific and his defense was at least okay? Why pull him so quickly in the next two games (especially the Wake game)?

As Fellow Traveler noted earlier, it isn't always the case that Andre's whole night is determined by his first couple of minutes or first couple of shots. Sometimes he picks it up after an early miss and/or turnover. If he doesn't think he will get that opportunity, doesn't that put a lot of pressure--possibly too much pressure--on him to try to do something special early on, resulting in overthinking or taking inadvisable chances?

Chris Randolph of course is right that we (or at least most of us--I can't speak for everyone) don't know what goes on in practice, and that there may be more to this tale than we can see in the games. But it still concerns me.

Yes, we don't know what is happening in practice but we do see what happens in the games and Andre is often pulled for his mistakes much quicker than his teammates who may make repeated mistakes. As far as the slot machine analogy, you have to play to win and in Andre's case he can't play riding the bench because of the short leash. In addition, he can't pass the ball to himself...there were several instances where he was literally yelling for the ball (you could easily hear him through the TV) but was looked off even though he was wide open. How can you hit the jackpot if you aren't feeding the machine?

[ncexnyc]

Before I talk about the game I want to take a moment to congratulate the people of Winston-Salem, and Wake Forest University. The LJVMC is an outstanding facility staffed by some wonderful people. Upon arrival at the front gate we were greeted by a lady who was collecting the parking fee. She took the time to not only greet us in a cheerful manner, but also gave us detailed instructions on how the parking lot was set-up. As we entered the building the ticket taker was extremely polite and friendly and paid several compliments to my son, which of course had my wife beaming from ear to ear. There was an extremely attractive blonde who was handing out Wake’s version of the Terrible Towel and she was quite gracious as I turned her down, however she was even nicer when my wife decided she had to have one for a keepsake of the game. She was quite pleasant and even joked with me as I sheepishly returned and asked for a towel. The two ushers we encountered were very knowledgeable of the seating area and again very cordial. The concession stand we utilized was also staffed by an extremely friendly and efficient group of individuals. All in all I came away very impressed with the way business was conducted at the LJVMC. Having been to Greensboro and the arena in Fayetteville, I can easily say this building is not only the nicest, but is staffed by some outstanding individuals.

So now for my take on the game. First off, we had awesome seats. We were seated in Section 123, Row L, which couldn’t be more than 25-30 yards from the court. Being this close gives you a great feel for the size and speed of these athletes, which you just can’t get watching at home. After some nip and tuck to start the game, the team finally seized control and finished the 1st half with a nice 11 point lead. I really thought we had things all wrapped up and was ready to settle in for an evening of highlight reel action. This attitude was further reinforced as the lead grew to 23 points at around the 10:30 mark of the second and 1 minute later it was still a 23 point lead. Little did I know that things were going to take a major turn for the worse. Wake started hitting some shots and to compound the problem, Duke suddenly got careless with the ball. It would be nice to say it was one particular player, but it wasn’t, just about every kid that was on the court came up with one bonehead play after another. Ryan tries to put some spin on an entry pass to Miles, but doesn’t get enough spin and the ball goes straight out of bounds. Andre drives into traffic and loses the ball. Quinn does a spin move, but forgets to take the ball with him. Austin gets called for a questionable push off. And finally Tyler decides it would be nice to see if he can imitate the halftime act by dribbling the ball with his leg. Unfortunately he needs some more practice at the trick. As Coach K mentioned in his presser, while this entire Globetrotter act was going on Wake was hitting several and 1’s. The lead quickly evaporated and some said they thought they had the mute button on their TV turned on, let me assure you this wasn’t the case. It got extremely loud, despite the fact that the venue was filled with close to 25-30% Duke fans sporting the proper shade of blue. IF CIS gets any louder than this I’m not sure how anyone can stand it as at that level of noise it’s hard to hear yourself think. Some solid board work by Miles and some clutch free throw shooting put this one in the bank.

Andre: OK, we’ve seen this act before. He got upset with the refs in the 1st half on a shot he thought he was fouled on. He said something and stood there for a second or two all the time eying the ref. I wish we could put to bed the myth that Andre’s defender can’t leave him unguarded to help on off ball defense. This stand him in the corner to draw a defender is so bogus it hard to believe people on this board are still trying to sell it. The man has 3 games with ZERO points this season. That’s zilch, nada, nothing! On a team with so many weapons, if I’m game planning for Duke, I’m stopping Austin first, then Seth. Dawkins would have to show me he’s on before I go out of my way to devise a strategy to stop him.

Austin: He had the crowd oohing and aahing with a couple of nice drives to the basket. Wake did a solid job of limiting his 3 pt shots. I think if you really want to know about this kid, then this sequence says it all. Austin blows a beautiful backdoor pass from Mason. Wake moves down the court and Austin streaks in front of a pass, slapping it ahead to himself for a two handed jam.

Mason: Well 8 of 9 from the line is pretty awesome. I hate to say it but he appears to be thinking a bit too much. It could be due to all the heavy contact he’s been taking , but for some reason he wants to pump fake everything, which isn’t necessary because a number of times the entry pass had Wake beaten badly. I will say that Mason hasn’t let this effect his play on the defensive end of the court. He had an awesome block waved off due to a bogus call on Andre. Sitting in the stands I could clearly see Mason sizing up the play and when the Wake player put it up Mason swooped in with a monstrous swat.

Michael: This is one unhappy young man. He gets in, has an unbelievable wide open 3 from the corner, the ball goes halfway down and comes out and Wake comes down the court a foul is whistled and out he comes. He slammed the towel down between his feet and slumped into his chair. A very unhappy camper. Not sure exactly what he did to deserve the supper quick hook.

Miles: This young man has been a rock. You can’t ask for much more from a senior than this.

Quinn: I’d say the young man had a pretty solid game for himself. His defense looked a lot better than it has and he did a better job attacking the basket off the dribble. Not very fond of Quinn when he starts chucking up the 3 ball.

Ryan: A really nice offensive game. When he’s aggressively taking the ball to the hoop good things seem to happen for his game, as opposed to when he floats on the perimeter. Aside from the dumb play at the end where he launched a 3 after Miles tipped a rebound to him, he’s a pretty heady player, as witnessed by the play in the 1st half where he knocked the ball away from a Wake player and as it was going out of bounds he slung it off of Mersherikov. I can’t say he had a great game, as a number of Mersherikov career high points came at Ryan’s expense.

Seth: He’s really gotten me nervous these past two games. Seeing hit crumple to the ground after taking a hit on the knee and getting his clock cleaned on a screen doesn’t do my heart any good. He’s really picked it up taking the ball aggressively to the hoop. With his ability to shoot the ball that shot fake and drive will keep teams honest.

Tyler: A very gritty effort, but that’s what he always brings to the table. A really nice steal along the baseline, followed by a long pass to a wide open Austin at the other end.

I definitely got a lot more than I bargained for, but at least the long ride home to Fayetteville was done with a victory in hand. Can we complain about the lead evaporating? Sure, but we can also take solace in knowing this team knows how to play when the going gets tough and crunch time hits.

[uh_no]

Oh what a night

late december back in '63?

[Indoor66]

late december back in '63?

What a very special time for me.

[ncexnyc]

What a very special time for me.

You do realize you're dating yourself by posting that.;)

[Indoor66]

You do realize you're dating yourself by posting that.;)

I'm a lot older than that. LOL

[devildeac]

What a very special time for me.


You do realize you're dating yourself by posting that.;)

His screen name is Indoor66;).

That song is also included on the soundtrack for Jersey Boys so some the youngsters/theatregoers would also be familiar with the tune and enjoy listening to it. According to the Four Seasons Greatest Hits CD I just checked, it looks like it was released in December, 1975. A bit of history about the song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December,_1963_%28Oh,_What_a_Night%29

The song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December,_1963_%28Oh,_What_a_Night%29

Now, back to the Duke-Wake Forest thread (aka the devildeac game :rolleyes:).

[MCFinARL]

You do realize you're dating yourself by posting that.;)

Well, but wasn't that the issue for the character in the song? He was tired of "dating" himself? ;)

[ncexnyc]

Well, but wasn't that the issue for the character in the song? He was tired of "dating" himself? ;)

Well to be completely honest, I thought someone would role with, "Oh what a night. You should be like Missy, 'stead of being like Mike."

Now "December 1963", will be a song I always have fond memories of as while stationed at Ft. Devens, several of my fellow soldiers and I went out on a Friday night to one of the local bars in Ayer, MA. A number of guys got up while this was playing on the jukebox and proceeded to do their best imitation of the Rockettes.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Michael: This is one unhappy young man. He gets in, has an unbelievable wide open 3 from the corner, the ball goes halfway down and comes out and Wake comes down the court a foul is whistled and out he comes. He slammed the towel down between his feet and slumped into his chair. A very unhappy camper. Not sure exactly what he did to deserve the supper quick hook.

Whoa, this concerns me. Silent G is often shown supporting his teammates and displays a very humble demeanor and to hear about his frustration is very disheartening. I often wonder why some players get a "super quick hook" and how it affect their confidence, etc.

[Jderf]

Michael: This is one unhappy young man. He gets in, has an unbelievable wide open 3 from the corner, the ball goes halfway down and comes out and Wake comes down the court a foul is whistled and out he comes. He slammed the towel down between his feet and slumped into his chair. A very unhappy camper. Not sure exactly what he did to deserve the supper quick hook.

Whoa, this concerns me. Silent G is often shown supporting his teammates and displays a very humble demeanor and to hear about his frustration is very disheartening. I often wonder why some players get a "super quick hook" and how it affect their confidence, etc.

I really hope G (pronounced "B") wasn't quite as frustrated as this suggests. I think it is important to remember that above all things, even at this stage in the season, Coach K is a tinkerer. He is always going to be trying stuff out. So maybe Gbenije wasn't even pulled for any specific thing he did. Maybe Coach K wanted to see how he would handle himself with a couple minutes of PT, even though he never planned on keeping him in the whole game. Who knows what is going on? Either way, I'm confident K is doing what's best for this team's long-term development, both in the sense of this particular season as well as the broader future.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

I really hope G (pronounced "B") wasn't quite as frustrated as this suggests. I think it is important to remember that above all things, even at this stage in the season, Coach K is a tinkerer. He is always going to be trying stuff out. So maybe Gbenije wasn't even pulled for any specific thing he did. Maybe Coach K wanted to see how he would handle himself with a couple minutes of PT, even though he never planned on keeping him in the whole game. Who knows what is going on? Either way, I'm confident K is doing what's best for this team's long-term development, both in the sense of this particular season as well as the broader future.

Your hypothesis could be true but how does this affect the psyche of the player(s) who tends to always be at the brunt of the tinkering (i.e. Dawkins, Silent G)? Hence the broader future may not be so bright with unhappy players.

[killerleft]

Michael: This is one unhappy young man. He gets in, has an unbelievable wide open 3 from the corner, the ball goes halfway down and comes out and Wake comes down the court a foul is whistled and out he comes. He slammed the towel down between his feet and slumped into his chair. A very unhappy camper. Not sure exactly what he did to deserve the supper quick hook.

Whoa, this concerns me. Silent G is often shown supporting his teammates and displays a very humble demeanor and to hear about his frustration is very disheartening. I often wonder why some players get a "super quick hook" and how it affect their confidence, etc.

Perhaps S-G was just disappointed with his play?

[COYS]

Your hypothesis could be true but how does this affect the psyche of the player(s) who tends to always be at the brunt of the tinkering (i.e. Dawkins, Silent G)? Hence the broader future may not be so bright with unhappy players.

These guys are all competitors. If you come to Duke and buy in, it's because you know you have to compete all the time to earn court time. Just because somebody slams a towel down and looks frustrated after having a chance to make some good plays and not having them work out doesn't mean there's a deeper issue. Why should he have been happy with what happened? He missed a shot and then made a mistake on defense knowing that he has to make the most of his limited time on the court? It doesn't mean he feels discontent with his overall place in the program. I HOPE he's not happy getting limited minutes this season and is committed to putting in the work so that he can be a major impact player next season. In very possible scenario that Shabazz does not come to Duke (not that he is necessarily unlikely to come to Duke, either) and Mason and Austin depart for the NBA, there is a very good chance he could be a major contributor next season and possibly start at the three. Seth, Andre, Tyler, and Quinn could man the guard spots with Mike, Josh and Alex playing at the 3 and 4 spots while Ryan and Marshall man the post. I'd actually think he'd be ahead of Marshall in playing time and we'd be likely to see a lot of small lineups with Mike and Alex playing the three and four spots. Even if Andre starts, Mike would almost certainly get lots of burn as none of the other guards have the size to handle the three spots and Andre won't play the whole game. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Ryan Kelly type of progression for Mike G. Ryan played a similar amount his freshman year as he sat behind the seniors Lance and Brian and the more physically ready Miles and Mason. He played a much more important role last year and is a key cog in the machine this year. Next year, he will be one of the team's stars and will hopefully make one of the all-ACC teams (I bet he will challenge for 1st team, but that's just my hunch). Nolan Smith played more his freshman year, but also had ups and downs. It's hard to remember now, but he was a major questionmark going into the 2009-2010 season. He had never been consistent and had even lost hist starting spot at the end of the previous season. Could a junior Nolan really carry a Duke team that had few other established scorers? He put in the work and became a star.

[ncexnyc]

I made a simple observation of what I saw Silent G do when he was pulled, nothing more nothing less. Please don't blow this up into something it isn't.

[Kedsy]

Michael: This is one unhappy young man. ...


I made a simple observation of what I saw Silent G do when he was pulled, nothing more nothing less. Please don't blow this up into something it isn't.

I have to say your first quote made it sound as if you thought Michael was unhappy in general, and not just in this game. If you meant otherwise, that's a good thing.

[Jderf]

I made a simple observation of what I saw Silent G do when he was pulled, nothing more nothing less. Please don't blow this up into something it isn't.

Well, I don't think anyone is blowing it out of proportion. It was just an interesting thing to note, and it probably warranted a post or two discussing it. But like you said, nothing more. I highly doubt that any of us will still be talking about it tomorrow.

[wilko]

I made a simple observation of what I saw Silent G do when he was pulled, nothing more nothing less. Please don't blow this up into something it isn't.

Its cool. I aint mad at ya..
I tend to think part of is measuring desire. The desire to work to get better, the desire to practice to get better, the desire to listen to the coaches, the desire execute on the court.

In the Pavlovian sense, to give him a lil taste to spark a response. When a situation arises and his # is called hes got to be ready to go. He has to be ready to embrace the opportunity and take full advantage. G is not the only frosh this has ever happened to at Duke.

My Guess (and mine alone) is that Duke provides more of a "Montessori" approach to basketball than other programs. Other schools mollycoddle their players a good bit more to elicit what they want. This mollycoddling prolly began in middle school with a given player because they demonstrated a particular aptitude with a ball and a hoop. Its what they are used to and what they expect to a certain extent. I think it may also speak to some recruiting issues/perceptions. Notably TParker wanting a school to "make" him into something.

Coaches can instruct and teach, facilities can be the absolute sparkling best, but the ultimate impetus for improvement has to come from within the player in the Duke system. The staff tries to set up the BEST stage/environment for that to come out. They have the tools and resources, but ultimately the player has to produce. The players that produce generally tend to be rewarded.

He must have heard something wrong in the huddle and thought Coach K called him "GRivers" If G was going to take that shot he needed to make it! or follow the game-plan script for his role. I dare say that if he generated a turnover or got a rebound on D it would have offset the missed shot to some degree. But back to back errors... bad shot and giving the opposition points on a foul shots. I can see the hook.

As for the Towel thing... why cant he be mad at himself or frustrated with his play? If he channels that energy the right way he'll get better... I don't see why the automatic assumption is that he is mad at K or unhappy at Duke being the key implication.

I wish G well and I hope he keeps working to get better. Same for Andre and Quinn and our other guys.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

I made a simple observation of what I saw Silent G do when he was pulled, nothing more nothing less. Please don't blow this up into something it isn't.

On the contrary, I appreciate your in-depth analysis of what you saw from the sidelines. When watching games on TV, we are limited to what the cameraman focus on. I'd like to see more panning of the sidelines during time-outs or breaks in action versus watching a Progressive Insurance commercial for the one-hundreth time. Actually I wish I could be as fortunate as you and actually see a Duke regular season game in person.