Front Page Write Up On VT and Thuggery

[Channing]

Not sure what the point of the front page write up is. I watched and rewatched the pick and didn't think there was any over the top taunting. People on the board always remind folks that these are just kids. Duke players are just as guilty of "showboating" or "taunting" as other teams ... see Andre Dawkins and, in an even bigger show, Quinn Cook after The Shot 2.0.

Was it the most sportsmanlike action? Probably not. Was it some sort of unacceptable display? I hope not, or else we have some issues on our own team.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Taunting after making a good play is just... well... kinda stupid.

But it's another thing entirely to hurt someone, even if unintentionally, and then stand over them woofing for even half a second. Which is exactly what Raines did. I saw it on the replay a couple times and it pissed me off.

[UrinalCake]

Just wanted to get this off my chest - every time we play Maryland in College Park they show the replay of Dave Neal's pick on Nolan Smith which gave him a concussion. The announcers have a good laugh about it, they joke about Nolan "seeing stars" while commending Neal for being so tough. Never mind the fact that a player was seriously hurt. If a Duke player did that to someone he would be vilified as a thug and the fact that no call was made would serve as proof that Duke gets all the calls.

[cf-62]

Taunting after making a good play is just... well... kinda stupid.

But it's another thing entirely to hurt someone, even if unintentionally, and then stand over them woofing for even half a second. Which is exactly what Raines did. I saw it on the replay a couple times and it pissed me off.

Guys, I've watched the replay on TV many many times. And it happened literally 30 feet in front of me. I can tell you that there was nothing I wouldn't expect from any center laying out a point guard.

I think we watch the world through our Duke blue colored glasses as much as Terrapins and State fans believe there are conspiracies throughout the league.

There was nothing wrong with what happened during, or after, the pick. Tyler was actually fine.

No need to stoke the FNG fires any more. After all, we're about to get 2 - 4 FNGs to complain about. It's time we let VPI just, well, not matter.

[DukieInKansas]

Didn't Daniel Ewing get a T for the "taunt" over Tyler yesterday?

I thought I saw a slight taunt after the pick. I figured nothing was called since it was so close to the end of a close game. For the record, I don't like it when a Duke player does anything like this either.

[cf-62]

Didn't Daniel Ewing get a T for the "taunt" over Tyler yesterday?

I thought I saw a slight taunt after the pick. I figured nothing was called since it was so close to the end of a close game. For the record, I don't like it when a Duke player does anything like this either.

Well, the old fogie / sportsman in me wishes that every taunt like this would be T'd up 100% of the time, muscle flexes, yells in the camera, rim swings, staredowns, etc. But they're NOT! Which means that if the ref had T's up that very small staredown, then Duke really WOULD get all the calls.

[wilko]

Well, the old fogie / sportsman in me wishes that every taunt like this would be T'd up 100% of the time, muscle flexes, yells in the camera, rim swings, staredowns, etc. But they're NOT! .

I hear ya!
My inner Fogie agrees with this. In fact I'd take it further.

I don't like the physicality that is allowed to take place in the games today at a very general level (not specific to the Duke-Vt game) I think that the "physical play" that's unfortunately the norm today, takes away from the players that are true technicians and students of the game. It detracts from proper execution and fundamentals in playing the game, at least from my POV.

If a player is bringing the ball across 1/2 court is un-pressured and carries/palms the ball.. the the ref should MAKE THE CALL. I don't understand how "advantage" is selectively employed... NOT making that call is an inherent advantage to the team that doesn't focus on the fundamentals (not to mention rules) and rewards poor play. I am not a fan of this trend.

As for fouls on Duke not being called. Sorry Boozer was fouled on the put-back Vs IU. Langdon was fouled vs Uconn. Deng got KNOCKED OUT in a game and still no fouls FOR Duke? Whatever benefit Duke *may* get, I refuse to feel bad about it EVER!

All this carping seemingly started from UMd and UNC fans -
I'd dare say at this point Duke gets away with less violations than any other team. All this white noise about fouls and favoritism ... its affecting the Refs and they have to try hard to demonstrate a non-bias as opposed to just calling the dadgum game.

I'll stop now before somebody asks me to document and prove my assertions. I don't have the time or initiative currently to get into all that.

[MChambers]

Didn't Daniel Ewing get a T for the "taunt" over Tyler yesterday?

I thought I saw a slight taunt after the pick. I figured nothing was called since it was so close to the end of a close game. For the record, I don't like it when a Duke player does anything like this either.

If Karl Hess had done the game, Dell Curry and Doc Rivers would have been ejected.

[dukeENG2003]

If a player is bringing the ball across 1/2 court is un-pressured and carries/palms the ball.. the the ref should MAKE THE CALL. I don't understand how "advantage" is selectively employed... NOT making that call is an inherent advantage to the team that doesn't focus on the fundamentals (not to mention rules) and rewards poor play. I am not a fan of this trend.

Agreed.

In the same vein, it makes me cringe the fact that Austin walks EVERY time he catches the ball on the perimiter. He is SO sloppy with his footwork when he catches the ball. I can't figure out if its on purpose to keep his defender off balance (since they have no idea what his pivot foot is, considering he doesn't either) or what. Austin isn't the only player who does this though, its VERY common in college ball and particularly in the NBA.

[cf-62]

I hear ya!
My inner Fogie agrees with this. In fact I'd take it further.

I don't like the physicality that is allowed to take place in the games today at a very general level (not specific to the Duke-Vt game) I think that the "physical play" that's unfortunately the norm today, takes away from the players that are true technicians and students of the game. It detracts from proper execution and fundamentals in playing the game, at least from my POV.

If a player is bringing the ball across 1/2 court is un-pressured and carries/palms the ball.. the the ref should MAKE THE CALL. I don't understand how "advantage" is selectively employed... NOT making that call is an inherent advantage to the team that doesn't focus on the fundamentals (not to mention rules) and rewards poor play. I am not a fan of this trend.

As for fouls on Duke not being called. Sorry Boozer was fouled on the put-back Vs IU. Langdon was fouled vs Uconn. Deng got KNOCKED OUT in a game and still no fouls FOR Duke? Whatever benefit Duke *may* get, I refuse to feel bad about it EVER!

All this carping seemingly started from UMd and UNC fans -
I'd dare say at this point Duke gets away with less violations than any other team. All this white noise about fouls and favoritism ... its affecting the Refs and they have to try hard to demonstrate a non-bias as opposed to just calling the dadgum game.

I'll stop now before somebody asks me to document and prove my assertions. I don't have the time or initiative currently to get into all that.

I don't know why this is, but we ALL know that Duke got shafted by the refs at the end of certain games - that cost us at least an opportunity to win more championships - yet we are all able to couch that knowledge with a grounding "well, we shouldn't have been in that position" or "we missed too many free throws." Instead of focusing on foul 5, for example, we accept the fact that the first 4 fouls were silly, putting you at the mercy of a quick whistle by mr. stripes. Yes, Mr. Benedict didn't call a foul that was intentionally committed because the defender knew the layup wins the game. Maybe we shouldn't have blown a 17 point lead - including an 8 point lead in the last 2 minutes.

Why other schools can't seem to deal with this, I don't understand. Kansas, by the way, seems to have this mindset as well. The ability to not focus on a possible physical play by a defender, but rather simply say that their guard wasn't strong with the ball.

The funniest are the Kentucky fans that re-write history to MAKE the loss in '92 the refs' fault. Nobody complained in 1992, or 93, 94, 95, ... all the way up to about 2002. That was when the story out of Lexington changed to "Laettner should have been ejected." Gee, at the time you didn't seem to mind the fact that he got called for a technical that started a 12 - 2 run. In fact, I would say that everybody involved from the UK side would say they got what they wanted - until the infamous 2001 Final 4 with the 2 whiniest fan bases I've ever seen - Maryland and Arizona.

At any rate, while I do get extremely riled up at certain calls (Ted Valentine, offensive foul on Dawkins last week comes to mind), I never sit around and say "the ref cost us the game."

And, again, back to the staredown, I heard that D-Ewing was hit with a technical for the TT staredown, so it all worked out.

[cf-62]

Agreed.

In the same vein, it makes me cringe the fact that Austin walks EVERY time he catches the ball on the perimiter. He is SO sloppy with his footwork when he catches the ball. I can't figure out if its on purpose to keep his defender off balance (since they have no idea what his pivot foot is, considering he doesn't either) or what. Austin isn't the only player who does this though, its VERY common in college ball and particularly in the NBA.

The "reverse pivot on the catch at the hash line" is actually one of those calls that I mention gets me riled up. It is called maybe twice a year. The fact that it was called Thursday night on Seth - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Not just Austin, but every player that comes off a flex screen to the hash mark essentially double pivots when they catch the ball. NEVER called - except in the worst of situations. (like we're up 2 on UNC - happened a few years ago).

[JNort]

Not sure what the point of the front page write up is. I watched and rewatched the pick and didn't think there was any over the top taunting. People on the board always remind folks that these are just kids. Duke players are just as guilty of "showboating" or "taunting" as other teams ... see Andre Dawkins and, in an even bigger show, Quinn Cook after The Shot 2.0.

Was it the most sportsmanlike action? Probably not. Was it some sort of unacceptable display? I hope not, or else we have some issues on our own team.

I have watched the replay several time now and agree completely with you on this. Nothing even remotely thuggish on the play. Can we move on yet?

[91_92_01_10_15]

I have watched the replay several time now and agree completely with you on this. Nothing even remotely thuggish on the play. Can we move on yet?

Well, it's hard to argue with this not knowing what your definition of "thuggish" is, but I was at the game and was personally outraged in the moment. I've now watched the replay and again saw the VT player pause to look down at Tyler after the pick knocked Tyler to the floor.

I thought it was uncalled for and displayed poor sportsmanship. Just my opinion.

[FerryFor50]

"Thug" is one of those words that gets overused and misused way too often. Same with "stalker" or "sarcastic." People really should think about what the word actually means before using it.

[camion]

Well, it's hard to argue with this not knowing what your definition of "thuggish" is, but I was at the game and was personally outraged in the moment. I've now watched the replay and again saw the VT player pause to look down at Tyler after the pick knocked Tyler to the floor.

I thought it was uncalled for and displayed poor sportsmanship. Just my opinion.

That's what I saw. He paused to look down at Tyler after the pick. I don't know why he looked down at Tyler, but that's probably where I would have looked if I had set such a pick. He could have been thinking, "Take that you so and so." He could have been thinking, "I hope he's not hurt." I couldn't read his mind so I don't know.

[Channing]

That's what I saw. He paused to look down at Tyler after the pick. I don't know why he looked down at Tyler, but that's probably where I would have looked if I had set such a pick. He could have been thinking, "Take that you so and so." He could have been thinking, "I hope he's not hurt." I couldn't read his mind so I don't know.

Exactly - if the player isn't focusing on setting the pick he runs the risk of getting his clock cleaned. Taking half a second to focus and finish the play is not horrible and, as mentioned, nobody knows what Raines was thinking. My only point is its a little hyper-sensitive to write an article about that play showing VTs "thuggish" behavior.

[dcdevil2009]

That's what I saw. He paused to look down at Tyler after the pick. I don't know why he looked down at Tyler, but that's probably where I would have looked if I had set such a pick. He could have been thinking, "Take that you so and so." He could have been thinking, "I hope he's not hurt." I couldn't read his mind so I don't know.

I was actually on the phone with someone else watching the game when it was happening and had almost this exact conversation. My first thought was that Raines was talking trash, but seeing it again didn't looking like he said anything. If the exact same play had happened against Boston College or Davidson, or some other school where there was no history of seemingly dirty play and heavy trash talking, I don't think I would have thought twice about it. However, while this play might not have been dirty and Raines might not have been woofing at him, VT doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation for sportsmanship, which made me immediately jump to the conclusion that it was a dirty play.

[Greg_Newton]

I didn't a problem with it on first watch either. If your adrenaline is flowing like crazy and you take a full-speed hit from a 200-lb man like a champ in a way that helps your team, your initial, half-second reaction is going to be fueled by an even bigger rush of adrenaline. He didn't say anything or do anything demonstrative that I could see, so I'd say he handled himself decently well.

[bluedevil31]

I think the VT player handled himself ok. Could he have offered a hand up or something, perhaps, but it's definitely not even close to the worst behaivor we've seen.

My complaint is the fact that there seems to be no consistancy in the taunting call throughout the NCAA. I don't understand how a player can make a dunk plus the foul, then come down with his arms pumped up, he's strutting around and not get called for taunting. Then in the Duke game against Virginia Tech at Tech, Andre Dawkins gets called for a tech after he makes a three pointer for what appears to be maybe looking at the guy after the shot? Now what I couldn't tell was if Dawkins said something but I thought the technical in that case was unwarrented. As with so many different calls, traveling, carrying the ball, and taunting, consistancy is clearly lacking.

[Edouble]

I think the VT player handled himself ok. Could he have offered a hand up or something, perhaps, but it's definitely not even close to the worst behaivor we've seen.

Offer to help him up with the game clock running at the end of a close game?

[Jderf]

Agreed.

In the same vein, it makes me cringe the fact that Austin walks EVERY time he catches the ball on the perimiter. He is SO sloppy with his footwork when he catches the ball. I can't figure out if its on purpose to keep his defender off balance (since they have no idea what his pivot foot is, considering he doesn't either) or what. Austin isn't the only player who does this though, its VERY common in college ball and particularly in the NBA.

In my opinion, this post, as well as mine, should be deleted. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should we DBR members discuss or otherwise acknowledge Austin's 100% travel per possession rate. There is no reason to draw the public's attention to this. It can only hurt us. ;)

[Greg_Newton]

In my opinion, this post, as well as mine, should be deleted. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should we DBR members discuss or otherwise acknowledge Austin's 100% travel per possession rate. There is no reason to draw the public's attention to this. It can only hurt us. ;)

lol

Delete mine too, but it also drives me crazy. When Valentine called him for it against FSU, I was all "WHA... oh, well... okay." Can't really argue that it's not a travel; you'd like for our best player to not give the refs reason to call him for a TO every time he gets the ball...

[CDu]

lol

Delete mine too, but it also drives me crazy. When Valentine called him for it against FSU, I was all "WHA... oh, well... okay." Can't really argue that it's not a travel; you'd like for our best player to not give the refs reason to call him for a TO every time he gets the ball...

In fairness, it's not exclusive to Rivers (though he does it more frequently than most people simply due to volume of possessions). Nearly everyone travels when the catch the ball coming toward half court away from the basket. It should be called a lot more than it is.

[Jderf]

lol

Delete mine too, but it also drives me crazy. When Valentine called him for it against FSU, I was all "WHA... oh, well... okay." Can't really argue that it's not a travel; you'd like for our best player to not give the refs reason to call him for a TO every time he gets the ball...

Yeah... and you just know it is going to happen in the most terrible situation possible.

I remember when a player in the NCAA tournament (I'm not sure if it was last year's tourney or the one before) got called for a TO in the dying seconds of a single-possession game for -- good lord! -- having his toe on the line for the inbounds pass.

How did he expect to get away with such obvious cheating? He clearly got far too big of an advantage for the refs to let him get away with it.

I have not seen a ref ever make that call, before or since.

Edit: Wow, sorry. I just realized how far off-topic this is. My apologies.

[-bdbd]

Offer to help him up with the game clock running at the end of a close game?

I didn't watch it live, but got to see some of this discussion before watching the TIVO, and replayed it several times yesterday. The video resolution wasn't ideal, but it looked like the VT player had his mouth open, but was otherwise expressionless. It certainly wasn't an expression of "concern." My initial reaction was, "Ouch!" And my second thought was, "What a stupid play on his part (the reaction, not the block)." It wasn't a foul, or even dirty, but, yes, I think it was a sort of "taunting glare" to the prone Thornton. Why stupid? B/c there's less than 5 seconds left in the game and your team is running a desperation next-to-last play, and you waste over two seconds standing over a player that you just knocked down, instead of following the ball to the hoop??! (If the lay-up had missed we'd be all here laughing at the guy for the "missed oppotunity" of an easy, important follow-up basket at game's end.) The clock on the backboard in the background was helpful, as the initial contact occured at 5.9 seconds, and he finally turns to leaves at 3.8 seconds IIRC), but by then the ball handler and MP2 are already into the lane. BTW, he wasn't the first VT player to try to take a chunk out of TT on screens set for their star SG. Clearly Tyler was being a defensive pest, and that probably added to their resentment/frustration. I was glad there wasn't any jawing from the Duke players afterwards.

But I agree with the posters who point out that, after several recent incidents, there is a bit of an "edge", it appears, to Seth G.'s players. Not knowing the insides of the program, I imagine there is an element of what they would call "being fiesty" (we might call it "chippy," or worse). It can't be fun to keep losing to the "rich kids school" year after year. Living in VA, I see among VPI alums some elements of the infamous MD "inferiority complex," but at least they have great football as an outlet. And don't think that they haven't forgotten that many in the ACC didn't want them added. :rolleyes:

[Channing]

Yeah... and you just know it is going to happen in the most terrible situation possible.

I remember when a player in the NCAA tournament (I'm not sure if it was last year's tourney or the one before) got called for a TO in the dying seconds of a single-possession game for -- good lord! -- having his toe on the line for the inbounds pass.

How did he expect to get away with such obvious cheating? He clearly got far too big of an advantage for the refs to let him get away with it.

I have not seen a ref ever make that call, before or since.

Edit: Wow, sorry. I just realized how far off-topic this is. My apologies.

this is one that drives me crazy. If they aren't going to enforce the rule, why not just have the players check the ball to the other team to start the clock.

[Greg_Newton]

In fairness, it's not exclusive to Rivers (though he does it more frequently than most people simply due to volume of possessions). Nearly everyone travels when the catch the ball coming toward half court away from the basket. It should be called a lot more than it is.

I know man, but not as bad as Rivers. And it's more than just on the catch, he shifts his pivot foot on almost every first step-cut he makes, which is a little less common.

But ANYWAY... :cool:

[Jderf]

this is one that drives me crazy. If they aren't going to enforce the rule, why not just have the players check the ball to the other team to start the clock.

Okay, one more and then I'll stop hijacking the thread: Why don't they just change the rulebook to finally say that a player on the losing team is allowed to intentionally foul in the final minutes of the game and only be penalized with a regular foul. Or did this already happen and I just missed it? Because, I think technically, the winning team should get two shots and then keep possession every single time. But if refs actual made the correct call here, a late 7 point lead would essentially become a blow-out. At this point, breaking the rule is so ingrained in the game that it would not even make sense to enforce it.

They could even add in a caveat along a certain line, which I would actually like to see, saying that a team can only use up their extra fouls to a certain point (i.e. penalize teams who play a very rough style of play by forcing them to use up their "extra" fouls through the course of the game, leaving none for when they need them at the end). A sensible limit, in my opinion would be three fouls past the double bonus (so 13 fouls total for the second half), but I could understand arguments for higher or lower limits--or even, for no limit at all, to be honest. I'm just speculating here.

[HokieEngineer]

But I agree with the posters who point out that, after several recent incidents, there is a bit of an "edge", it appears, to Seth G.'s players. Not knowing the insides of the program, I imagine there is an element of what they would call "being fiesty" (we might call it "chippy," or worse). It can't be fun to keep losing to the "rich kids school" year after year. Living in VA, I see among VPI alums some elements of the infamous MD "inferiority complex," but at least they have great football as an outlet. And don't think that they haven't forgotten that many in the ACC didn't want them added. :rolleyes:

Does this mean that I need to come back here to point out everytime a Duke player does anything resembling taunting in a game, or Coach K does anything obnoxious (such as telling Zabian Dowdell how he should celebrate after a win)?

In this case, I thought Raines' reaction was just like it was earlier in overtime when he was called for a foul on a Rivers drive and went over to help him up.

To be honest, beating Duke in football registers very little for us. If you'd won one or more of the close games we've had (live we have in basketball), the situation would be different. Until then...

[DukeDevilDeb]

Not sure what the point of the front page write up is. I watched and rewatched the pick and didn't think there was any over the top taunting. People on the board always remind folks that these are just kids. Duke players are just as guilty of "showboating" or "taunting" as other teams ... see Andre Dawkins and, in an even bigger show, Quinn Cook after The Shot 2.0.

Was it the most sportsmanlike action? Probably not. Was it some sort of unacceptable display? I hope not, or else we have some issues on our own team.

Thank you for making the point about Duke players who act inappropriately. I was devastated to see Quinn popping his jersey after Austin's shot in the Dean Dome... and was very glad that Austin hadn't done it. It was truly stupid. We handed UNC a jaw-dropping defeat, and all Quinn can think of is to taunt them? That's almost suicidal.

I don't like taunts whether they are "deserved" or not. I don't think it was an illegal or bad pick, and I saw it in person and have watched it multiple times since then. Don't blame anyone... but the VT player didn't, in my opinion, taunt.

This whole issue, however, is so trivial when in 12 minutes we are going to play Wake. I'm hoping that the good Devils turn up tonight... the ones who are great 3 point shooters and play solid defense! GO DEVILS!!!!

[alteran]

Offer to help him up with the game clock running at the end of a close game?

No more ridiculous than standing over a guy doing nothing and wasting time while his team was trying to come back.

[Edouble]

No more ridiculous than standing over a guy doing nothing and wasting time while his team was trying to come back.

Then I think you agree with me sir. The two options we are discussing are not mutually exclusive with regards to "ridiculousnesss".

bluedevil31 said that he thought that Raines handled himself well, but perhaps could have offered a hand to hep Thorton up. That is ridiculous. As I noted, it was a close game and he should have gotten back into the back court to help his team on one of their final possessions.

Instead of getting back into the play, Raines wasted 2 seconds standing over (maybe taunting) Thorton. That is ridiculous too.

What Raines should have done was get back into VT's offensive set after setting the pick, because that is what you do after you set a pick at mid-court. Whether he decided to taunt Tyler, help Tyler up, do a little dance, recite poetry, play air guitar, etc. etc. anything other than getting back into the play at that point was the wrong thing to do.

By no means did I state or imply that because helping another player up is a waste of time, that taunting them is not a waste of time.