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devildeac
02-25-2012, 05:59 PM
Mizzou has managed to relinquish most of a 19 point lead from the 16 minute to the 4 minute mark. Now 71-68 with 3 minutes to go.

throatybeard
02-25-2012, 06:18 PM
Mizzou has managed to relinquish most of a 19 point lead from the 16 minute to the 4 minute mark. Now 71-68 with 3 minutes to go.

That foul on KU's last regulation possession was weapons-grade stupid on Mizzou's part.

PS - check my facebook status for off-color analogy here

Greg_Newton
02-25-2012, 06:23 PM
This has been an incredible finish... like Duke/NCSU on steroids. Thomas Robinson has literally murdered the last few Missouri players to come into the lane. Like, actually killed them, and they're dead now.

devildeac
02-25-2012, 06:32 PM
This has been an incredible finish... like Duke/NCSU on steroids. Thomas Robinson has literally murdered the last few Missouri players to come into the lane. Like, actually killed them, and they're dead now.

Officiating question: If you block someone's shot cleanly and then hit him across the face/chest/shoulders with your "follow through" and knock him to the court, is it theoretically/supposed to be a foul?

OZZIE4DUKE
02-25-2012, 06:34 PM
Officiating question: If you block someone's shot cleanly and then hit him across the face/chest/shoulders with your "follow through" and knock him to the court, is it theoretically/supposed to be a foul?
Only if we are the one's committing the foul. If we are the shooting team, it's a charge.

buddy
02-25-2012, 07:35 PM
Officiating question: If you block someone's shot cleanly and then hit him across the face/chest/shoulders with your "follow through" and knock him to the court, is it theoretically/supposed to be a foul?

Only if you are Gerald Henderson, the blocked shot was taken by Hansbrough, and the game is in Chapel Hill.

cruxer
02-25-2012, 07:37 PM
Questionable end-game officiating aside (there really is an epidemic of bad cbb officiating), this was as enjoyable a game as I watched all year. KU really played well down the stretch.

Is it just me, or did Frank Haith finally get the athletes that allowed him to install the offense of one outstanding coach who used to be his conference-mate?

-c

Duke76
02-25-2012, 08:35 PM
That foul on KU's last regulation possession was weapons-grade stupid on Mizzou's part.

PS - check my facebook status for off-color analogy here


Was watching at a bar but where was the foul on that play, a slight trip...off balance shot no chance of going in, bad call IMO like that no call on the other end, the Missouri player was hammered after the shot.
Guess they ruled he had released the shot so play was over

Greg_Newton
02-25-2012, 08:50 PM
Officiating question: If you block someone's shot cleanly and then hit him across the face/chest/shoulders with your "follow through" and knock him to the court, is it theoretically/supposed to be a foul?

I don't think it's supposed to be, if it's incidental. Maybe someone smarter can chime in, but you very rarely see that kind of call unless it's a charge after the release. I would have been shocked if they'd called Taylor for that after he jumped straight up and blocked the shot clean at the very end of the game.

I also don't think the Taylor foul was as terrible a call as everyone seems to think. Two big calls that went KU's way, sure, but I think they were probably both the correct call. Dumb move on Mizzou's part to bump Taylor and force the refs to make a judgment call.

1 24 90
02-25-2012, 08:55 PM
FWIW Jay Bilas says that the last block by Thomas Robinson where he leveled Pressey at the end of regulation was definitely a foul and it's ridiculous that it wasn't called. I like the fact that he at least addresses it instead of ignoring it.

I think Missouri got the benefit of a bad call in Missouri (when T Rob got called for a charge late when KU was leading) and KU got the benefit in Kansas so it's even.

TexHawk
02-25-2012, 09:49 PM
FWIW Jay Bilas says that the last block by Thomas Robinson where he leveled Pressey at the end of regulation was definitely a foul and it's ridiculous that it wasn't called. I like the fact that he at least addresses it instead of ignoring it.

I think Missouri got the benefit of a bad call in Missouri (when T Rob got called for a charge late when KU was leading) and KU got the benefit in Kansas so it's even.
At least 3 of 'em in Columbia (TRob charge, TRob block, Taylor charge) then today add in the 4 invisible calls on Withey/TRob in the first half. Given that all of those sent them both to the bench and let the lead stretch to 12+ before halftime, I won't lose sleep over that last call. It was likely a foul, but Big12 officiating has been crazy terrible/unpredictable this year. After TRob's 1st foul for just standing under the basket today, no officiating call will ever shock me again.

Good, fun game. Glad the rivalry is over.

Also, as a recruiting note, Shabazz & Parker were behind the KU bench today.

Chicago 1995
02-25-2012, 09:55 PM
Seems like that's a pretty common refrain this year. Good teams, good game. Completely screwed up officiating.

Besides the awful end of regulation an end of game calls, the great KU comeback was fueled much by the one-sides officiating as their play.

It was like the officials got a call at the under 16 timeout from the BigXII office reminding them that Mizzou is an SEC team. It was awful. I feel for the Mizzou kids. They got robbed.

TexHawk
02-25-2012, 10:11 PM
Seems like that's a pretty common refrain this year. Good teams, good game. Completely screwed up officiating.

Besides the awful end of regulation an end of game calls, the great KU comeback was fueled much by the one-sides officiating as their play.

It was like the officials got a call at the under 16 timeout from the BigXII office reminding them that Mizzou is an SEC team. It was awful. I feel for the Mizzou kids. They got robbed.

This is a joke, right? Missouri leads the Big12 in foul differential... by far. This is all without a post presence, with an offense entirely built around drive and dish. They shot 30 threes today, and that was with Withey/Robinson on the bench for a significant portion of the game with... you guessed it, foul trouble. The frontline they were playing against was playing at Loyola Maramount and Lamar last year. It's their own fault, fouls don't get called when you sit 25 feet from the basket and chuck.

As said above, they came back from an 8 point deficit in the last 2 minutes in Columbia, fueled by 3 terrible calls themselves. Fouls called in Columbia 3 weeks ago: KU 20, Missouri 9. If anything, this makes us even.

Chris Randolph
02-25-2012, 11:23 PM
This is a joke, right? Missouri leads the Big12 in foul differential... by far. This is all without a post presence, with an offense entirely built around drive and dish. They shot 30 threes today, and that was with Withey/Robinson on the bench for a significant portion of the game with... you guessed it, foul trouble. The frontline they were playing against was playing at Loyola Maramount and Lamar last year. It's their own fault, fouls don't get called when you sit 25 feet from the basket and chuck.

As said above, they came back from an 8 point deficit in the last 2 minutes in Columbia, fueled by 3 terrible calls themselves. Fouls called in Columbia 3 weeks ago: KU 20, Missouri 9. If anything, this makes us even.

Agree. Mizzou got the calls in the critical moments in Columbia. KU got the calls in the critical moments in Lawrence. Consider them even, both need to get to Big 12 title game and settle it, haha. Great game to watch today

Chicago 1995
02-25-2012, 11:56 PM
This is a joke, right? Missouri leads the Big12 in foul differential... by far. This is all without a post presence, with an offense entirely built around drive and dish. They shot 30 threes today, and that was with Withey/Robinson on the bench for a significant portion of the game with... you guessed it, foul trouble. The frontline they were playing against was playing at Loyola Maramount and Lamar last year. It's their own fault, fouls don't get called when you sit 25 feet from the basket and chuck.

As said above, they came back from an 8 point deficit in the last 2 minutes in Columbia, fueled by 3 terrible calls themselves. Fouls called in Columbia 3 weeks ago: KU 20, Missouri 9. If anything, this makes us even.

Whatever happened in Columbia shouldn't matter today, unless you're implying that KU was owed one by the league office. KU's guards did more to lose that game than any whistles. Bad guard play dooming KU? Where have I seen that before? Hmmm.

The idea that Mizzou is a "three point shooting" team and therefore shouldn't shoot FTs is frankly a way too simplistic view of basketball and one that's just not right. Mizzou attacks with the dribble. They generate jumpers off the kick out, but they attack with the dribble and score plenty off the bounce. It's like the dumb UNC/MD refrain that Duke should never shoot FTs. Using the dribble that way draws fouls. Lots of them. KU's comeback was fueled by physical D that kept Mizzou out of the paint. That's fine enough if it's called fairly. But it wasn't. KU could defend one way for TE last 16 minutes of that game --last 21 really. Mizzou got their entire team put in foul trouble defending the same way. I can think heck 7 or 8 Mizzou forays into the paint where more contact was generated than on the "foul" on Taylor that won the game where nothing was called.

I'm a Duke grad who grew up an Illinois fan. I'm not predisposed to rooting for Mizzou. I wasn't really today. In fact, I like T-Rob plenty, even if I don't care for KU guards at all. And I was just shocked by the way the officials let the game change as part of the comeback.

It's a great win for KU. The kids still had to execute, and they did. But they couldn't have done it without the stripes. As a basketball fan with no dog in the fight, it was really disappointing. Every game that is officiated like this hurts the game. And I get sick of seeing these buffoons screw games up without repercussions.

throatybeard
02-26-2012, 01:49 AM
I don't really have a dog in this fight, like really like, though I was mildly rooting for MU. It did look to me like they quit attacking the lane, and the refs had been mostly calling the lane-muggings and awarding FTs. They also had two dumbdumb possessions, fouling or even giving the whiff of a foul on KU's last possession in regulation, allowing the possibility for the old fashion 3-point play. Just let the guy score. You're still up one with the ball.

And not even getting the dang shot off on the last possession of OT. Ai yai yai.

I dunno. I was rooting a little for MU, but I think they mostly had themselves to blame on the pivotal possessions. Congrats to KU. I hope to see a Big Plains Conference Tourney rematch.

I don't have any opinions about massive conspiracies from conference offices, handed down to referees in individual games. I mean, er, um, I think.

TexHawk
02-26-2012, 11:15 AM
Whatever happened in Columbia shouldn't matter today, unless you're implying that KU was owed one by the league office. KU's guards did more to lose that game than any whistles. Bad guard play dooming KU? Where have I seen that before? Hmmm.
Not sure I understand this. And define "dooming". You don't win 8 straight conference titles and a #1 seed 4 out of 5 years with bad guard play (could be 5 out of 6). Tyshawn Taylor (a guard) scored 9 points in OT yesterday, 24 overall. Sure, the last two free throws were questionable, but he also had a 3, a floater, and a dunk on a backdoor cut. He struggled with turnovers early in the year, especially against you guys. But the fact is, KU is worse than a bubble team without him.



The idea that Mizzou is a "three point shooting" team and therefore shouldn't shoot FTs is frankly a way too simplistic view of basketball and one that's just not right. Mizzou attacks with the dribble. They generate jumpers off the kick out, but they attack with the dribble and score plenty off the bounce. It's like the dumb UNC/MD refrain that Duke should never shoot FTs. Using the dribble that way draws fouls. Lots of them.
I agree. My comment was referencing their offensive execution in the 2nd half yesterday when they had the lead. Not their general style of play. The fact that they lead the Big12 in free throws by a mile tells you that they (a) are good at drawing fouls (b) any anti-SEC conspiracy is nonsense. Their 2nd half offense consisted of holding the ball until 10 seconds left on the shot clock, then a guarded 3. That's not a good way to draw fouls.


KU's comeback was fueled by physical D that kept Mizzou out of the paint. That's fine enough if it's called fairly. But it wasn't. KU could defend one way for TE last 16 minutes of that game --last 21 really. Mizzou got their entire team put in foul trouble defending the same way.
Ricardo Ratliffe has played against KU 4 times, and ended up fouling out or on the bench with 4 fouls each game (including 2 games in Columbia). Yesterday was not an anomaly.


Look, I give you that the last couple questionable calls went KU's way, but I'm still incensed over the 1st half fouls on TRob and Withey that left our 8th and 9th guys on the frontline, letting Mizzou waltz it's way to a 12 point halftime lead. Were those called correctly, it's a completely different ballgame.

Chris Randolph
02-26-2012, 12:11 PM
I've already posted on this topic and given my thoughts. And I agree that the game in Columbia doesn't give an officiating crew an excuse to give KU the benefit in Lawrence. But it does seems like it did just a bit.

TexHawk: I agree that the 1st half calls against Withey and T-Rob were tough (honestly, Withey is a no factor in 2 games against Mizzou so that didn't hurt KU) but I understand your point. My beef with the officiating is this: In the end of game situations yesterday (end of regulation, game tied Mizzou ball and end of OT KU down 1) If you do not call a foul on T-Rob at the end of regulation where he clearly hammers the guy with the body how do you call a foul on Taylor's drive where he is clearly out of control, barely if any contact occurs and he is throwing up a prayer and gets bailed out. That's what Mizzou fans and analysts point to and I understand why they would.

Again, KU deserves the win just as Mizzou deserved their win in Columbia. In both games their were 3 common themes: one team blew a lead, one team made a great comeback, the winning team got the benefit of a few critical calls. Part of the game

TexHawk
02-26-2012, 03:07 PM
And I agree that the game in Columbia doesn't give an officiating crew an excuse to give KU the benefit in Lawrence. But it does seems like it did just a bit.
See, that's the kind of assertion that needs some evidence, or it's no better than acting like Maryland fans. The officials were different people than the guys who called the Columbia game, but just as horrible at their jobs. If it was true, how can you explain those crazy terrible calls on the front-runner for NPOY and also KU's best defensive player (likely defensive POY in the Big12). Were the refs thinking, "let's let Mizzou get a big lead, then we'll rip their hearts out in the 2nd half"? If there really was a conspiracy, you would expect T-Rob to shoot 30 free throws.

Fact is, make-up calls happen in the same game all of the time. I'm sure Bill Self was in their ears all day, hoping to get a break later in the game. This is not shocking. It ridiculous to think that there was any conspiracy to make up calls that happened 3 weeks ago.



TexHawk: I agree that the 1st half calls against Withey and T-Rob were tough (honestly, Withey is a no factor in 2 games against Mizzou so that didn't hurt KU) but I understand your point. My beef with the officiating is this: In the end of game situations yesterday (end of regulation, game tied Mizzou ball and end of OT KU down 1) If you do not call a foul on T-Rob at the end of regulation where he clearly hammers the guy with the body how do you call a foul on Taylor's drive where he is clearly out of control, barely if any contact occurs and he is throwing up a prayer and gets bailed out. That's what Mizzou fans and analysts point to and I understand why they would.

I disagree on the block at the end of regulation. I have re-watched it more times than I care to admit, and the fact is: T-Rob jumped straight up, Pressey barreled into him, and the shot was blocked after it had clearly left his hand. Would it have been a foul if that play happened in the 1st half? Maybe / probably. But refs swallow whistles all of the time in end-game situations.

Honestly, I would like to have seen a no-call on the Taylor drive because (a) he makes 2-3 of those plays per game, so I disagree with "out-of-control" and (b) T-Rob was in perfect position for the rebound.

So, yes, I realize the contradiction with both of those plays, and I agree with you on the Taylor foul. First and foremost, I am a college basketball fan, and I hate seeing games end that way. Those kids played their hearts out on both sides, they deserved better. The worst part for Mizzou was that the Taylor play fouled out Phil Pressey, who is the starting PG and would normally bring the ball up in that situation. As it was, Michael Dixon looked like he out for a stroll, and they didn't get a shot off.

Chris Randolph
02-26-2012, 03:27 PM
Maybe the officiating at the end of the game in Columbia didn't have an effect on how the game was officiated in Lawrence. And there is truly no way of knowing. Fact is, home team got the benefit in the most crucial situations

Bad calls are going to happen throughout the game, whether you are the favorite or underdog, home or visiting team. As far as the first half yesterday, I can explain those "crazy terrible calls." They were bad calls just like some of the calls on Missouri during the game. It is part of the game.

All my buddies who are KU fans couldn't stop complaining about the officiating in the 1st half. Why? Because KU was getting beat, simple as that. If KU is up by 10 at half, everything is fine. That proved true in the 2nd half when KU made the big comeback and I didn't hear a word about the officiating from my KU friends. First half, 8 fouls called on each team. Second half, 14 on Mizzou 8 on KU. Is that a conspiracy, no not necessarily, maybe it means KU played better fundamentally.

Point is: when you are winning, the officiating doesn't seem to bother you but when losing it is a great excuse to point to