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slower
02-25-2012, 04:45 PM
The conventional wisdom throughout the season has been that Mike Scott (UVA) would join at least 3 unc players and a fifth player whose name I can't remember (Green from VT?) on the All-ACC First Team. Hasn't Austin played his way into the conversation? Sure, he's a no-brainer lock for Rookie of The Year, but he's also (in conference play only) 7th in Scoring, 6th in FG%, 2nd in 3-Pt FG% and 5th in Minutes Played. With another good week, it seems like he'd be in contention for the 5th spot, along with Green (VT), Stoglin (MD) and maybe Kadji (Miami). I just can't see them putting a 4th heel (Marshall) on the First Team (I think Barnes, Zeller and most likely Henson are locks).

uh_no
02-25-2012, 04:54 PM
The conventional wisdom throughout the season has been that Mike Scott (UVA) would join at least 3 Tarhole players and a fifth player whose name I can't remember (Green from VT?) on the All-ACC First Team. Hasn't Austin played his way into the conversation? Sure, he's a no-brainer lock for Rookie of The Year, but he's also (in conference play only) 7th in Scoring, 6th in FG%, 2nd in 3-Pt FG% and 5th in Minutes Played. With another good week, it seems like he'd be in contention for the 5th spot, along with Green (VT), Stoglin (MD) and maybe Kadji (Miami). I just can't see them putting a 4th Tarhole (Marshall) on the First Team (I think Barnes, Zeller and most likely Henson are locks).

I think austin has certainly played his way onto the team. Though I think he more than the other guys needs to finish up the season as strong as he's been playing recently.

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-25-2012, 04:59 PM
The conventional wisdom throughout the season has been that Mike Scott (UVA) would join at least 3 Tarhole players and a fifth player whose name I can't remember (Green from VT?) on the All-ACC First Team. Hasn't Austin played his way into the conversation? Sure, he's a no-brainer lock for Rookie of The Year, but he's also (in conference play only) 7th in Scoring, 6th in FG%, 2nd in 3-Pt FG% and 5th in Minutes Played. With another good week, it seems like he'd be in contention for the 5th spot, along with Green (VT), Stoglin (MD) and maybe Kadji (Miami). I just can't see them putting a 4th Tarhole (Marshall) on the First Team (I think Barnes, Zeller and most likely Henson are locks).

Michael Snaer should also get some consideration. Snaer and Aaron Craft are the two guys who I love to watch play d. Henson will probably win ACC defensive player of the year, but Snaer deserves a lot of consideration as well.

slower
02-25-2012, 05:02 PM
Michael Snaer should also get some consideration. Snaer and Aaron Craft are the two guys who I love to watch play d. Henson will probably win ACC defensive player of the year, but Snaer deserves a lot of consideration as well.

True, but I don't think Snaer has either the stats or the media-recognition level of Austin. He's probably a Second-Team lock, though.

loran16
02-25-2012, 05:03 PM
I dont think Austin makes it. Here's my 1st team:

Guaranteed: Mike Scott

Almost Certainly: Tyler Zeller, Harrison Barnes, and PROBABLY Kendall Marshall

That leaves one spot for the rest of the ACC. And there you have Terrell Stoglin being the ACC Scoring leader at Maryland (Not very efficient though), Snaer, Erich Green of VT....

My Guess:

Stoghlin, Marshall, Barnes, Scott, Zeller.

uh_no
02-25-2012, 05:06 PM
I don't think the writers will put 3 UNC guys on there in front of Austin....if only just because of what austin did to UNC in CH. If he has a performance next week anywhere near what he had last month, I think he can punch his ticket. Should it matter what team you're on or who you put up big numbers against? probably not, but it does.

slower
02-25-2012, 05:10 PM
I dont think Austin makes it. Here's my 1st team:

Guaranteed: Mike Scott

Almost Certainly: Tyler Zeller, Harrison Barnes, and PROBABLY Kendall Marshall

That leaves one spot for the rest of the ACC. And there you have Terrell Stoglin being the ACC Scoring leader at Maryland (Not very efficient though), Snaer, Erich Green of VT....

My Guess:

Stoghlin, Marshall, Barnes, Scott, Zeller.

Gonna be interesting. Henson is 1st in Rebs and 2nd in Blocks, ahead of Marshall in Scoring. But I get that as goes Marshall, so go the Holes. Maybe Henson and Marshall split the Hole-friendly vote and Austin sneaks in. Even though Stoglin leads in Scoring, I think Austin might possibly get past him. Sadly, the media monkeys will probably reward Stoglin's scoring. Looks like Austin may rise to 6th in Scoring after today.

devildeac
02-25-2012, 05:15 PM
Scott, Marshall (assist leader), Zeller (POY), Henson (DPOY) and Barnes (self-anointed/fulfilling:rolleyes:).

(Just kidding. Sort of. Heck, there may never have been 3 players from the same school as 1st team all-acc in the history of the league, IIRC, but I am sure one of our trusted historians will correct me if I am wrong. But think about the sports writers and the precedent that could be set.)

slower
02-25-2012, 05:18 PM
Scott, Marshall (assist leader), Zeller (POY), Henson (DPOY) and Barnes (self-anointed/fulfilling:rolleyes:).

(Just kidding. Sort of. Heck, there may never have been 3 players from the same school as 1st team all-acc in the history of the league, IIRC, but I am sure one of our trusted historians will correct me if I am wrong. But think about the sports writers and the precedent that could be set.)

Of course, YOUR post posits FOUR on the First Team. :)

devildeac
02-25-2012, 05:23 PM
Of course, YOUR post posits FOUR on the First Team. :)

Yes, the precedent would be set with 3 (if my feeble memory is correct) OR the 4 I have proposed. Of course, my post defies tradition and logic on some (many? all?) counts but is not totally preposterous (or is it;))?.

JNort
02-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Uhh most media members that I have seen have it as follows:

Zeller
Barnes
Austin
Snaer
Scott

slower
02-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Yes, the precedent would be set with 3 (if my feeble memory is correct) OR the 4 I have proposed. Of course, my post defies tradition and logic on some (many? all?) counts but is not totally preposterous (or is it;))?.

Disgusting, yes. Preposterous? Unfortunately, no.

JNort
02-25-2012, 05:30 PM
Scott, Marshall (assist leader), Zeller (POY), Henson (DPOY) and Barnes (self-anointed/fulfilling:rolleyes:).

(Just kidding. Sort of. Heck, there may never have been 3 players from the same school as 1st team all-acc in the history of the league, IIRC, but I am sure one of our trusted historians will correct me if I am wrong. But think about the sports writers and the precedent that could be set.)

I believe Duke had 3 back in... 2001?? I do not recall but I shall check


Ok I just checked and yeah Duke had 3 guys on first team back in 2002: Boozer, Dunleavy and Jason Williams

JNort
02-25-2012, 05:35 PM
In 2010 we prob should have had 3: Singler and Schyer made it but Nolan got 2nd team

jimsumner
02-25-2012, 06:29 PM
Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy made first-team All-ACC in 2002. Only time one school has had three.

I suspect Zeller and Barnes will be the only two UNC players on 1st team, with Marshall and Henson on 2nd.

Mike Scott, Austin Rivers and Michael Snaer have the credentials.

Stoglin might be the toughest pick. He not only leads the ACC in scoring, he's one of the national leaders. But he shoots a lot, he's had some chemistry issues and Maryland is a borderline NIT team.

But he's leading the ACC in scoring by a pretty substantial margin.

A conundrum.

Has the leading scorer every been left off 1st-team?

Four times, to three people. Clemson's Butch Zatezalo in 1968 and 1969 Mark Price (ninth in voting!) in 1983 and Terrell McInytre in 1999.

sagegrouse
02-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy made first-team All-ACC in 2002. Only time one school has had three.

I suspect Zeller and Barnes will be the only two UNC players on 1st team, with Marshall and Henson on 2nd.

Mike Scott, Austin Rivers and Michael Snaer have the credentials.

Stoglin might be the toughest pick. He not only leads the ACC in scoring, he's one of the national leaders. But he shoots a lot, he's had some chemistry issues and Maryland is a borderline NIT team.

But he's leading the ACC in scoring by a pretty substantial margin.




I found it useful to construct the actual ballot. Austin will be the only Duke guy getting votes for first team. Snaer the same for FSU. Scott has been talked about as ACC POY for three months and will get loads of first team votes. Which means that four UNC guys are gonna split one, two or -- maybe -- three positions on first-team All-ACC. I think two get it -- and two get second team. Zeller IMO is a lock and would be my selection for POY. I suppose Barnes get the other position.

So I come out with --

1st Team
Zeller (POY)
Rivers
Scott
Barnes
Snaer


2nd Team
Stoglin
Henson
Marshall
Leslie - State
Kadji - Miami

3rd Team
MP2
Curry
Green - VT
Lo Brown - State
McKie - Wake

Lots of good players left off -- Howell (S), Harris (W), James (F), Booker (C), Anderson (BC), Durand Scott (Miami). Reggie Johnson would have made my ballot based on performance at Duke, but he doesn't register anywhere in the top 25 in any statistic.

sagegrouse

CajunDevil
02-25-2012, 07:42 PM
There is NO WAY Austin Rivers is left off the First Team, especially if Duke wins the ACC. Also, I think Coach K should get Coach of the Year for pushing/pulling/tweaking this unique team to the mature, tough team it is today!

Dukehky
02-25-2012, 08:25 PM
If Carolina wins next Saturday, I find it more likely than I'd care to admit, that Henson, Zeller, Marshall, Barnes, and Scott will be the first team. To be perfectly honest nobody outside those five, Austin and Snaer could conceivably be on the first time in my opinion. I would absolutely love it if they got 4 first teamers, and didn't win the regular season though, so classic Roy. Oh shucks.

I've decided that Marshall is the player I hate most on that Carolina now, at least Harry doesn't anymore and people don't talk about him every day. Marshall looks like Greivis Vasquez and I could rack up assists too if Zeller and Henson were on my team sprinting down the court every freaking play.

slower
02-25-2012, 08:54 PM
Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy made first-team All-ACC in 2002. Only time one school has had three.

I suspect Zeller and Barnes will be the only two UNC players on 1st team, with Marshall and Henson on 2nd.

Mike Scott, Austin Rivers and Michael Snaer have the credentials.

Stoglin might be the toughest pick. He not only leads the ACC in scoring, he's one of the national leaders. But he shoots a lot, he's had some chemistry issues and Maryland is a borderline NIT team.

But he's leading the ACC in scoring by a pretty substantial margin.

A conundrum.

Has the leading scorer every been left off 1st-team?

Four times, to three people. Clemson's Butch Zatezalo in 1968 and 1969 Mark Price (ninth in voting!) in 1983 and Terrell McInytre in 1999.

So, Jim, a question for you, since you're an actual journalist. Is it just me or has there been a season-long script that Henson, Barnes and Zeller would likely all be first-team? And if so, how likely are the voters to want to "stick to the script", which means picking Scott, three Tarholes and one more player? I mean, in most blogs/websites I've seen, it seems that most writers really WANT UNC to be the great team that they were pre-ordained to be before the season. Writers, just like other humans, seem to like to stick to whatever meme or script has been established as conventional wisdom. That's why we see SO many headlines that read "Barnes, Heels defeat (Team X)", even when Barnes was NOT the leading scorer or best player in the game.

Am I crazy?

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-25-2012, 09:07 PM
I've decided that Marshall is the player I hate most on that Carolina now, at least Harry doesn't anymore and people don't talk about him every day. Marshall looks like Greivis Vasquez and I could rack up assists too if Zeller and Henson were on my team sprinting down the court every freaking play.

I really enjoy watching Marshall play. You know how all the good NFL quarterbacks do the back shoulder throw now? That reminds me of what Marshall does. He has an understanding of the area where he can throw a ball so that only his guy can get it. Now, he is fortunate to have Zeller, Henson and Barnes around him, but I can't remember anyone else who passes the ball like he does. He is kind of unique. Maybe Jason Kidd?

It's also kind of unique in that I don't mind most of the kids on UNC. Henson is a goon and Hairston's mouth emits too much garbage that his play can't back up, but other than that.....OK, that's enough, I am starting to feel a little dirty with all of this tar heel praise....

jimsumner
02-25-2012, 09:15 PM
So, Jim, a question for you, since you're an actual journalist. Is it just me or has there been a season-long script that Henson, Barnes and Zeller would likely all be first-team? And if so, how likely are the voters to want to "stick to the script", which means picking Scott, three Tarholes and one more player? I mean, in most blogs/websites I've seen, it seems that most writers really WANT UNC to be the great team that they were pre-ordained to be before the season. Writers, just like other humans, seem to like to stick to whatever meme or script has been established as conventional wisdom. That's why we see SO many headlines that read "Barnes, Heels defeat (Team X)", even when Barnes was NOT the leading scorer or best player in the game.

Am I crazy?

Not crazy. Maybe a tad paranoid, however.

If it makes you feel any better, the folks who write the articles usually aren't the folks who come up with the headlines.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-25-2012, 09:42 PM
I don't see any way a rational basketball person can't put Zeller, Barnes, and Henson as three of the five best individual players in the ACC this season.

Rivers and Scott would complete my first team, and I think Zeller is easily POY.

But hey, that's just me and I don't have a vote.

Wander
02-25-2012, 09:52 PM
I don't see any way a rational basketball person can't put Zeller, Barnes, and Henson as three of the five best individual players in the ACC this season.

It'd be more than a little odd to have the third place team in any league getting three first team selections.

I'm not saying it's impossible or necessarily unjustified, but if FSU and Duke win out, it's at least something to consider.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 06:38 AM
It'd be more than a little odd to have the third place team in any league getting three first team selections.

I'm not saying it's impossible or necessarily unjustified, but if FSU and Duke win out, it's at least something to consider.

It would be embarrassing should that happen. And it could because UNC, despite all the individual talent, has yet to play to their potential and is not clearly the best team.

Trying to take my blinders off, I just can't rationalize better individual players in the ACC to move them out of the top five.

DUKIE V(A)
02-26-2012, 07:16 AM
Rivers has been bigtime and should be a First Team lock.

I do not think Stoglin deserves to be on the First Team despite his guady scoring average. His own coach has taken him out of multiple games due to his lack of team-oriented play.

I think Zeller has had a great year for Carolina -- probably better than Barnes and Henson. Interesting that Marshall is the guy that makes the team go and will likely be the one left off the first team.

My Predicted First Team

Rivers, Scott, Zeller, Barnes, and Henson

DUKIE V(A)
02-26-2012, 07:22 AM
It would be embarrassing should that happen. And it could because UNC, despite all the individual talent, has yet to play to their potential and is not clearly the best team.

Trying to take my blinders off, I just can't rationalize better individual players in the ACC to move them out of the top five.


Did you mean "and is clearly NOT the best team"? Just having fun ... I agree with you that Zeller, Barnes, and Henson have been really good this season (and I think we may think alike that Zeller's efforts often go under-appreciated - perhaps even by Tar Heel fans).

davekay1971
02-26-2012, 10:05 AM
Rivers and Scott would complete my first team, and I think Zeller is easily POY..

I'd give Zeller POY just for that tip-in he gave us. That was a clutch play, and without it Duke simply doesn't win at Chapel Hill. And without that win, Duke isn't in position to win the ACC regular season. That was a HUGE play.

OK, picking on Carolina aside, I agree that Zeller has been sensational and consistent all year. I don't think he's POY, but I'd put him second in voting behind Scott.

So, my 1st team would be:
Scott
Zeller
Marshall
Austin
Barnes

I know most writers probably don't have Marshall, but he's just such a great playmaker, and so crucial to UNC's success. I hate the shade of blue he wears, but love the way he runs the point.

Focusing more on the subject of the thread, Austin deserves a spot because he is the most reliable, most clutch player on a top 5 team and a team currently tied for number 1 in the ACC. Snaer can make almost the same claim (change top 5 team to top 20 team), but Austin has just been a little better than Snaer, especially as the season has gone on.

Bob Green
02-26-2012, 10:31 AM
If I had a vote, Mike Scott would be my choice for Player-of-the-Year with Tyler Zeller coming in second. Zeller is clearly Carolina's MVP. Additionally, I would drop Henson to 2nd Team as I don't see him coming up with clutch plays. He has a bit of choke in him. Moreover, I have a hard time seeing how Florida State gets shutout on the 1st Team when they are still in the mix to win the conference regular season. So my 1st Team would be:

Mike Scott
Tyler Zeller
Harrison Barnes
Austin Rivers
Michael Snaer

My vote is definitely influenced by my dislike of John Henson's antics on the court, specifically his hanging on the rim after dunks, but I believe the sportswriters who actually cast the votes are influenced by their own emotions as well.

COYS
02-26-2012, 12:51 PM
If I had a vote, Mike Scott would be my choice for Player-of-the-Year with Tyler Zeller coming in second. Zeller is clearly Carolina's MVP. Additionally, I would drop Henson to 2nd Team as I don't see him coming up with clutch plays. He has a bit of choke in him. Moreover, I have a hard time seeing how Florida State gets shutout on the 1st Team when they are still in the mix to win the conference regular season. So my 1st Team would be:

Mike Scott
Tyler Zeller
Harrison Barnes
Austin Rivers
Michael Snaer

My vote is definitely influenced by my dislike of John Henson's antics on the court, specifically his hanging on the rim after dunks, but I believe the sportswriters who actually cast the votes are influenced by their own emotions as well.

To be fair, Henson's biggest value is on the defensive end. He would be deserving of DPOY if he gets it and I don't see the DPOY not getting 1st team ACC. I agree with you about Mike Scott, though. As much as I respect Zeller's game, Scott has carried a team that wasn't supposed to be anywhere as good as they have been. Also, put Mike Scott on a more uptempo team and his per-game stats begin to look even more gaudy . . . and he already scores more than Zeller. Finally, add the fact that Zeller's game is greatly enhanced by Marshall's passing while Mike Scott has to make more for himself and I think Scott is most deserving of ACC POY.

Devilsfan
02-26-2012, 01:06 PM
I for one hope the four players from unc-... Split the POY vote and it goes elsewhere.

Kedsy
02-26-2012, 01:08 PM
To be fair, Henson's biggest value is on the defensive end. He would be deserving of DPOY if he gets it and I don't see the DPOY not getting 1st team ACC.

Henson was the ACC DPOY last year, and he only made 2nd team All-ACC. In 2010, Chris Singleton was the ACC DPOY and he only made 3rd team. In 2009, Trevor Booker and Toney Douglas tied for ACC DPOY, and Booker only made 2nd team. In 2007, Jamon Gordon won ACC DPOY, and he was only on the 3rd team.

So, I could see it.

Wander
02-26-2012, 01:17 PM
As much as I respect Zeller's game, Scott has carried a team that wasn't supposed to be anywhere as good as they have been.

Virginia has picked 4th in the ACC in the preseason. They're currently in 4th place at 8-6. You make a good point about Scott playing in a slow-tempo system compared to the UNC guys, but Zeller outplayed Scott in both match-ups between UNC and UVA.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Bob.....John Henson is averaging a double/double points/rebounds in league play. Arguably the two most impressive statistical categories. No-one else is.

He leads the league in blocked shots. He's the league leader in rebounds per game. He's third in field goal percentage.

I really like Snaer's game. He's made some big plays this year and should be recognized for them. But if we are looking to name the top five players in the league, Snaer cannot match up with Henson's overall play, IMO.

Bob Green
02-26-2012, 01:45 PM
Bob.....John Henson is averaging a double/double points/rebounds in league play. Arguably the two most impressive statistical categories. No-one else is.

Your points are valid but as I stated in my post my vote would be influenced by my dislike of Henson and his constant hanging on the rim. I really wish the ACC refs would "T" him up like he deserves. Perhaps a ref in the NCAAT will do it at a most inopportune time for the Tar Heels. :cool:

slower
02-26-2012, 02:32 PM
Your points are valid but as I stated in my post my vote would be influenced by my dislike of Henson and his constant hanging on the rim. I really wish the ACC refs would "T" him up like he deserves. Perhaps a ref in the NCAAT will do it at a most inopportune time for the Tar Heels. :cool:

Bob, one added bonus of Henson going pro is the rude awakening some of the MEN in the league will lay upon him if he "acts out."

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 02:49 PM
Bob, one added bonus of Henson going pro is the rude awakening some of the MEN in the league will lay upon him if he "acts out."

I haven't seen Henson do anything unsportsmanlike.

Fans are a funny bunch sometimes...so you're saying your team is not "man" enough to deal with Henson "acting out" ?

Just kidding...we are officially in rivalry game week mode now :)

jv001
02-26-2012, 02:55 PM
I haven't seen Henson do anything unsportsmanlike.

Fans are a funny bunch sometimes...so you're saying your team is not "man" enough to deal with Henson "acting out" ?

Just kidding...we are officially in rivalry game week mode now :)

Wheat I stay that way. :) GoDuke!

phaedrus
02-26-2012, 03:06 PM
Bob.....John Henson is averaging a double/double points/rebounds in league play. Arguably the two most impressive statistical categories. No-one else is.

He leads the league in blocked shots. He's the league leader in rebounds per game. He's third in field goal percentage.

I really like Snaer's game. He's made some big plays this year and should be recognized for them. But if we are looking to name the top five players in the league, Snaer cannot match up with Henson's overall play, IMO.

Henson's stats are impressive, but let's not forget that UNC's fast tempo will consistently inflate both offensive and defensive stats. I don't have UNC's tempo stats for the season but I presume that, as usual, their tempo is tops in the league.

Which is not to say, necessarily, that the stat lines for the top 3-4 Heels are not impressive. But they may not be as impressive as they appear at first glance.

slower
02-26-2012, 03:17 PM
I haven't seen Henson do anything unsportsmanlike.

Fans are a funny bunch sometimes...so you're saying your team is not "man" enough to deal with Henson "acting out" ?

Just kidding...we are officially in rivalry game week mode now :)

Oh brother, is it mini-Wheat :) time again?

Where's that ignore button? :)

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 03:25 PM
Henson's stats are impressive, but let's not forget that UNC's fast tempo will consistently inflate both offensive and defensive stats...

OK, and we should also consider that Henson's individual stats are also limited by playing alongside two other potential all ACC players in the post, players who are also way up there in league stats, something no-one else has to do.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Oh brother, is it mini-Wheat :) time again?

Where's that ignore button? :)

Wish I had time to hang out more here this time of year...cheap entertainment! Sorry to let everyone down! :)

Duvall
02-26-2012, 03:30 PM
OK, and we should also consider that Henson's individual stats are also limited by playing alongside two other potential all ACC players in the post, players who are also way up there in league stats, something no-one else has to do.

Are they? Certainly Henson's scoring numbers will be helped by the fact that he will never be the focus of an opponent's defensive scheme.

Also, who is UNC's second other potential all-ACC post player?

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Are they? Certainly Henson's scoring numbers will be helped by the fact that he will never be the focus of an opponent's defensive scheme.

Also, who is UNC's second other potential all-ACC post player?

Barnes.

He's considered a frontline player, at least by me.

Never say never, they say. His offense gets better every game. Somebody better decide to defend him, he's getting about 14 a game.

luvdahops
02-26-2012, 03:39 PM
I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 03:46 PM
I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.

If I was forced to only choose two Heels for first team, I'd leave out Barnes before Henson and Zeller. But I do think Barnes deserves to be chosen as one of the top five players in the league.

davekay1971
02-26-2012, 03:58 PM
If I was forced to only choose two Heels for first team, I'd leave out Barnes before Henson and Zeller. But I do think Barnes deserves to be chosen as one of the top five players in the league.

I'm enjoying your 2 thread argument that UNC deserves 3 players on the all ACC team and yet Roy deserves consideration for COY for the job he's done guiding them to a 2 way tie for first in the league. That takes stones, my friend.

phaedrus
02-26-2012, 04:27 PM
OK, and we should also consider that Henson's individual stats are also limited by playing alongside two other potential all ACC players in the post, players who are also way up there in league stats, something no-one else has to do.

There's a fundamental difference between idly speculating about how much better one's stats would be if they played on a team with more or less talent around them, and the objective truth that more possessions per game directly results in more points, rebounds, and everything else per game.

slower
02-26-2012, 04:57 PM
Wish I had time to hang out more here this time of year...cheap entertainment! Sorry to let everyone down! :)

Don't worry. We ALL know that you'll somehow find time to hang out more if the Holes win on Saturday. :)

HokieEngineer
02-26-2012, 05:02 PM
I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.

Disclaimer: I've only seen one complete UNC game (against Virginia Tech) and two partial games (against Duke and UVa). However, my impressions based on those games are that Marshall does a good job of running the point, but I think that any decent point guard would do that with the options that UNC has. He's consistently beaten on the defensive end, to the point that he's almost a liability. In essence, he'd be a role player on most teams who puts up gaudy numbers because UNC has so much talent at other positions.

JNort
02-26-2012, 05:13 PM
Disclaimer: I've only seen one complete UNC game (against Virginia Tech) and two partial games (against Duke and UVa). However, my impressions based on those games are that Marshall does a good job of running the point, but I think that any decent point guard would do that with the options that UNC has. He's consistently beaten on the defensive end, to the point that he's almost a liability. In essence, he'd be a role player on most teams who puts up gaudy numbers because UNC has so much talent at other positions.

Partially agree. I think most point guards that have good vision and passing skills could easily replace him. He is slow, does not play D, does not contribute much on offense as scoring goes. He just makes good entry passes to the best front court in all of college which inflates his stats. If Barnes, Zeller and Henson all leave this year then Marhall should as well because his stats will take a big dip.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 05:26 PM
I'm enjoying your 2 thread argument that UNC deserves 3 players on the all ACC team and yet Roy deserves consideration for COY for the job he's done guiding them to a 2 way tie for first in the league. That takes stones, my friend.

Dave...
Stones, we talkin' bout stones?

So you don't think Roy has done a good job after losing two starters, and couldn't be considered at least on par with coach K this season because he started with good players... Like making good players better shouldn't count?

Here's some stones for ya....(best Palin voice) :)

For example, looking at players being coached to improve their games overall, I'll take the continued improvement I've seen in Zeller, Henson and Barnes over the continued improvement, or lack of, in Mason, Miles, and Kelley's games all day. That's coaching, and UNC is winning.

Coach K is a great coach that has been lucky this season with some tough individual play from his players to keep this team from middle of the pack ACC play. I'll give him credit for keeping them in position to be lucky, recognizing they have to bomb away to have a chance, and keeping them tough, that's good coaching, no doubt.

But Roy is coaching well too, and should get at least equal credit for what his team is accomplishing.

Rivalry talk here, and a day off to joust a little,..nobody get all mad.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 05:32 PM
Don't worry. We ALL know that you'll somehow find time to hang out more if the Holes win on Saturday. :)

Actually, I scheduled a board meeting/ fund raiser with my new charitable foundation for Saturday night in a private room at a local restaurant...of course we will have a big screen, so don't expect any comments from me either way until Sunday....but rest assured I'll stop by no matter what.

roywhite
02-26-2012, 05:46 PM
Dave...
Coach K is a great coach that has been lucky this season with some tough individual play from his players to keep this team from middle of the pack ACC play. I'll give him credit for keeping them in position to be lucky, recognizing they have to bomb away to have a chance, and keeping them tough, that's good coaching, no doubt.


Rivalry talk here, and a day off to joust a little,..nobody get all mad.

Sorry, I know this is rivalry talk, but I take offense to the "lucky" theme. Duke is 12-2 in the conference with comeback wins over NC State and UNC and an overtime win over VaTech. But the two losses were on a buzzer beater by Florida State (by Snaer, who banked in a 3-pointer to end the first half) and in overtime to Miami. So, a few of the wins could have gone the other way, but certainly the losses could have, too. Would a different result or two really put this Duke team in the middle of the pack?

And then the "they have to bomb away to have a chance"?? Is that to imply that 3-point shooting is somehow not real basketball or is some sort of desperation strategy for this team?

No woofing on Ole Roy and the Heels here, just taking note of your lack of respect for what Coach K and this Duke team have achieved.
Scoreboard.

slower
02-26-2012, 05:48 PM
Actually, I scheduled a board meeting/ fund raiser with my new charitable foundation for Saturday night in a private room at a local restaurant...of course we will have a big screen, so don't expect any comments from me either way until Sunday....but rest assured I'll stop by no matter what.

Awesome for you, dude. I'll be eating cake frosting in a hot tub with my trophy wife. :)

DV-R, baby.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 05:49 PM
Partially agree. I think most point guards that have good vision and passing skills could easily replace him. He is slow, does not play D, does not contribute much on offense as scoring goes. He just makes good entry passes to the best front court in all of college which inflates his stats. If Barnes, Zeller and Henson all leave this year then Marhall should as well because his stats will take a big dip.

Marshall is not just an average, good vision, point guard. He's setting records that have stood all time in the ACC...

And it's not just because there are good players around him. Everybody else had good players around them too all those years.

I think he hurts himself on defense because he paces himself to play extended minutes without a backup. More energy and effort would make his D tougher. He's not a bad defender, he's average, and is up there in league steals.

All said, he does need to improve that D, shoot better, and finish at the rim better. That's a few reasons he won't make first team All-ACC.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 05:51 PM
Awesome for you, dude. I'll be eating cake frosting in a hot tub with my trophy wife. :)

What a coincidence, me too right after my meeting. :)

slower
02-26-2012, 05:54 PM
What a coincidence, me too right after my meeting. :)

Apparently, I have better time-management skills than you do. :)

Opportunity cost, my friend.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 05:58 PM
Sorry, I know this is rivalry talk, but I take offense to the "lucky" theme. Duke is 12-2 in the conference with comeback wins over NC State and UNC and an overtime win over VaTech. But the two losses were on a buzzer beater by Florida State (by Snaer, who banked in a 3-pointer to end the first half) and in overtime to Miami. So, a few of the wins could have gone the other way, but certainly the losses could have, too. Would a different result or two really put this Duke team in the middle of the pack?

And then the "they have to bomb away to have a chance"?? Is that to imply that 3-point shooting is somehow not real basketball or is some sort of desperation strategy for this team?

No woofing on Ole Roy and the Heels here, just taking note of your lack of respect for what Coach K and this Duke team have achieved.
Scoreboard.

Gotcha....na na..na na na....:)
We agree...talk is cheap, Scoreboard is what counts and I'm now playing from behind.

I'll take my Sunday break now before somebody starts taking things too seriously...

Duvall
02-26-2012, 06:14 PM
And then the "they have to bomb away to have a chance"?? Is that to imply that 3-point shooting is somehow not real basketball or is some sort of desperation strategy for this team?


It's been 14 years. I don't think that still counts as implying.

Duvall
02-26-2012, 06:17 PM
For example, looking at players being coached to improve their games overall, I'll take the continued improvement I've seen in Zeller, Henson and Barnes over the continued improvement, or lack of, in Mason, Miles, and Kelley's games all day. That's coaching, and UNC is winning.

Zeller, Henson and Barnes were more highly rated out of high school than Mason and Kelly (to say nothing of Miles), and Zeller and Barnes arrived on campus much less prepared for college basketball. (Which is saying something, given the remarkable mediocrity of Barnes' rookie season.) What are you even talking about?

turnandburn55
02-26-2012, 07:51 PM
For example, looking at players being coached to improve their games overall, I'll take the continued improvement I've seen in Zeller, Henson and Barnes over the continued improvement, or lack of, in Mason, Miles, and Kelley's games all day. That's coaching, and UNC is winning.

Coach K is a great coach that has been lucky this season with some tough individual play from his players to keep this team from middle of the pack ACC play. I'll give him credit for keeping them in position to be lucky, recognizing they have to bomb away to have a chance, and keeping them tough, that's good coaching, no doubt.

2002: "Dean Smith was a better coach than K because he produced more and better individual NBA players!! Nevermind that he wasn't able to turn that talent into more titles than K...."
2012: "Roy Williams is a better coach than K because he's produce more and better individual players!! Nevermind that he hasn't been able to turn that talent into a better record than K..."

The more things change, the more they stay the same....

davekay1971
02-26-2012, 08:30 PM
Um, yeah, Wheat, you definitely showed you got some stones! Common sense, maybe not. Ability to make a controversial point with anything resembling convincing evidence, definitely not. But some big, honkin' stones...you betcha! (best Sarah Palin voice back at ya)

Have a good Sunday. With Florida State's loss tonight, and making the BIG assumption that Duke and UNC both handle business in their penultimate games, it looks like it's all coming down where it ought to: Duke and UNC, last game of the season, at the BEST basketball arena in the world. I hope we both come in 13-2, and Ryan Kelly, Mason, and Miles thoroughly outplay the First Team All-ACC frontcourt on the way to Duke winning the ACC regular season.

(Of course, since you are a Carolina fan, I need to remind you that Duke will NOT win the ACC championship that night. The ACC Tournament will decide that.)

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
02-26-2012, 09:26 PM
I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.

I agree. If Barnes isn't the most overrated player in the ACC I don't know who is. I watched him stand around yesterday against UVA, doing very little. Great players don't disappear like that, certainly not in such a close game. He is a good player but shouldn't be all first team ACC. I know this is the wrong thread, but if UVA could hit wide open 3 pointers, UNCCH wouldn't be tied for first right now. I can only hope the Holes bring the same 3 point defense to Cameron on Saturday!

Wheat/"/"/"
02-26-2012, 09:31 PM
One other quick note on Henson I just ran across...he's shooting about 76% from the ft line (16-21) in his last six games.

devildeac
02-26-2012, 10:10 PM
One other quick note on Henson I just ran across...he's shooting about 76% from the ft line (16-21) in his last six games.

We defended the FT line pretty well vs VPI (almost as well as you and the stripes did vs UVa yesterday:rolleyes:) so I hope our non-COY in the acc will have our guys continue to work on that aspect of their games between now and Saturday;).

Jderf
02-27-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't think the writers will put 3 UNC guys on there in front of Austin....if only just because of what austin did to UNC in CH. If he has a performance next week anywhere near what he had last month, I think he can punch his ticket. Should it matter what team you're on or who you put up big numbers against? probably not, but it does.

See: Vasquez, Greivis; Game-winner against Duke in February 2010 for ACC POY over the slightly more impressive Scheyer.

One shot > Whole Season. Sometimes true in voting, unfortunately.

uh_no
02-27-2012, 02:16 PM
See: Vasquez, Greivis; Game-winner against Duke in February 2010 for ACC POY over the slightly more impressive Scheyer.

One shot > Whole Season. Sometimes true in voting, unfortunately.

that was what i was getting at :)

superdave
02-27-2012, 03:13 PM
I found it useful to construct the actual ballot. Austin will be the only Duke guy getting votes for first team. Snaer the same for FSU. Scott has been talked about as ACC POY for three months and will get loads of first team votes. Which means that four UNC guys are gonna split one, two or -- maybe -- three positions on first-team All-ACC. I think two get it -- and two get second team. Zeller IMO is a lock and would be my selection for POY. I suppose Barnes get the other position.

So I come out with --

1st Team
Zeller (POY)
Rivers
Scott
Barnes
Snaer


2nd Team
Stoglin
Henson
Marshall
Leslie - State
Kadji - Miami

3rd Team
MP2
Curry
Green - VT
Lo Brown - State
McKie - Wake

Lots of good players left off -- Howell (S), Harris (W), James (F), Booker (C), Anderson (BC), Durand Scott (Miami). Reggie Johnson would have made my ballot based on performance at Duke, but he doesn't register anywhere in the top 25 in any statistic.

sagegrouse

I'd like to see how the next two games play out, but it's awfully hard to leave Jon Henson off the 1st team. To me, he's better at one thing than anyone else in the conference is at anything. His ability to block shots is better than any single skill/ability anyone else in the conference has. He makes that Unc defense very formidable.

I'd consider leaving Barnes, Snaer or Rivers out to put Henson on.

MCFinARL
02-27-2012, 04:36 PM
I'd like to see how the next two games play out, but it's awfully hard to leave Jon Henson off the 1st team. To me, he's better at one thing than anyone else in the conference is at anything. His ability to block shots is better than any single skill/ability anyone else in the conference has. He makes that Unc defense very formidable.

I'd consider leaving Barnes, Snaer or Rivers out to put Henson on.

FWIW, Henson has been named ACC player of the week three times--this week and two in the early season. No other player has been POW more than once, I think (may have missed something), except for Mike Scott, who has also won it three times. (Austin, by comparison, has been Rookie of the Week 8 times, including this week.) Zeller, Barnes, and Snaer have each only gotten it once.

roywhite
02-27-2012, 04:56 PM
I'd like to see how the next two games play out, but it's awfully hard to leave Jon Henson off the 1st team. To me, he's better at one thing than anyone else in the conference is at anything. His ability to block shots is better than any single skill/ability anyone else in the conference has. He makes that Unc defense very formidable.

I'd consider leaving Barnes, Snaer or Rivers out to put Henson on.

Have to disagree with your comment about the best single skillset in the conference.
Henson's own teammate Kendall Marshall is better at passing through measuring assist numbers than Henson is at blocking shots.

NCAA current individual stats (http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/individual/140)

Marshall is averaging an amazing 9.7 assists a game, second in the country.
Henson is averaging 3.1 blocks per game, quite good, but only 10th in the country and way below Anthony Davis's 4.8 blocks per game.

To his credit, Henson also ranks high in rebounds (16th) so you can certainly make a strong case for his inclusion on the 1st team.
Henson makes the defense very formidable -- yes, but Marshall's role for the UNC offense is as big or bigger.

My first team at this point is:
Zeller
Henson
Rivers
Scott
Snaer and Marshall in contention for last spot

(though I praised Marshall for his amazing passing, his defense is nothing special)

slower
02-27-2012, 05:04 PM
My first team at this point is:
Zeller
Henson
Rivers
Scott
Snaer and Marshall in contention for last spot

(though I praised Marshall for his amazing passing, his defense is nothing special)

Maybe, as Jim Sumner told me, I'm paranoid :), but I have to think that the media will find EVERY reason/excuse possible to make Barnes First Team. He's 2nd in Scoring and 9th in FG% in conference play.

Wow! I just looked, and C.J. Leslie is in the Top 10 in Scoring, Rebounding, Blocked Shots, Steals and FG%, in conference play. I had no idea!!

MCFinARL
02-28-2012, 08:23 AM
So the front page notes that Austin Rivers got his 8th Rookie of the Week award this week, which raises the question of whether being a lock rookie of the year makes him more or less likely to be voted first team ACC: maybe a voter having trouble choosing would say, well, Rivers will get the rookie honor anyway so I will let him slip to second team? Or would they think, on the other hand, that such a dominant rookie has made a real claim to a first team spot?

On this subject, I note the front page story says that Austin has won ROW more than any other player ever. But the goduke.com story it links says Austin's total is the third highest ever. Anybody know who the other two might be?

nocilla
02-28-2012, 08:48 AM
I would predict Zeller and Scott as locks since they are the contenders for POY.
Then Barnes, Henson, and Rivers. Marshall, Snaer, Stoglin, Leslie, MP2 are 2nd team.

Jderf
02-28-2012, 10:13 AM
that was what i was getting at :)

Yup. I was just throwing in my support, for whatever it's worth. Hopefully, this time around we'll see the same voting skew work in our favor.

dukebballcamper90-91
02-28-2012, 10:18 AM
I think Austin has a case for POY.

UrinalCake
02-28-2012, 10:39 AM
Awesome for you, dude. I'll be eating cake frosting in a hot tub with my trophy wife.


What a coincidence, me too right after my meeting. :)

Wheat, you're going to be in a hot tub with slower's wife?

davekay1971
02-28-2012, 10:45 AM
Wheat, you're going to be in a hot tub with slower's wife?

Sounds like the Stanley Cup of trophy wives! Who's got it this week? :cool:

(Disclaimer: Wives in this post are not intended to represent any actual wives, living or dead. No disrespect is intended for any actual wives)

slower
02-28-2012, 10:49 AM
Wheat, you're going to be in a hot tub with slower's wife?

No, Sir!!

No Heels allowed anywhere near my bathing or drinking water. :)

Or my wife.

gus
02-28-2012, 11:08 AM
Disclaimer: I've only seen one complete UNC game (against Virginia Tech) and two partial games (against Duke and UVa). However, my impressions based on those games are that Marshall does a good job of running the point, but I think that any decent point guard would do that with the options that UNC has. He's consistently beaten on the defensive end, to the point that he's almost a liability. In essence, he'd be a role player on most teams who puts up gaudy numbers because UNC has so much talent at other positions.

I haven't seen much more than you, but the Marshall I've seen is a brilliant passer with excellent vision and anticipation. It's not a coincidence they turned around so dramatically after replacingLarry Drew with Marshall. On the offensive end, he is not an average point guard.

But if you take both defense and offense into account, his defensive deficiency is far out weighed in my mind, and is still more than a "decent point guard".

sagegrouse
02-28-2012, 11:24 AM
I'd like to see how the next two games play out, but it's awfully hard to leave Jon Henson off the 1st team. To me, he's better at one thing than anyone else in the conference is at anything. His ability to block shots is better than any single skill/ability anyone else in the conference has. He makes that Unc defense very formidable.

I'd consider leaving Barnes, Snaer or Rivers out to put Henson on.

You're probably right. My approach was to project enough "fratricide" among the UNC candidates that only two make it. (Meaning, e.g., that Marshall's candidacy is hurt by the presence of three other Tar Heels in the race for All-ACC.) I have no problem with Henson over Barnes -- he is more qualified -- but sometimes this has a lot to do with preseason pub.

FWIW all four Heels were 2nd or 3rd team All-ACC last year. And FWIW the only other returning player from the 15 on the All-ACC team is Malcolm Grant of Miami.



All-ACC First Team
Nolan Smith, Duke (225)+
Jordan Williams, Maryland (210)
Malcolm Delaney, Virginia Tech (202)
Kyle Singler, Duke (199)
Reggie Jackson, Boston College (190)

All-ACC Second Team
Tyler Zeller, North Carolina (161)
John Henson, North Carolina (148)
Harrison Barnes, North Carolina (145)
Iman Shumpert, Georgia Tech (132)
Jeff Allen, Virginia Tech (131)

All-ACC Third Team
Chris Singleton, Florida State (126)
Demontez Stitt, Clemson (81)
Joe Trapani, Boston College (63)
Malcolm Grant, Miami (62)
Kendall Marshall, North Carolina (45)




There'll be lots of new faces among this year's 15.

sagegrouse

CDu
02-28-2012, 11:39 AM
Its certainly going to be an interesting selection. Statistically speaking, I'd have a hard time putting Rivers in ahead of Barnes. Barnes is outproducing Rivers in points, rebouns, steals, and blocks despite playing fewer minutes per game. He's got a better FG%, 3pt FG%, and FT%. He's turning the ball over less than Rivers. The only things in Rivers' favor right now seem to be assists and the game winner. If UNC wins this weekend and Barnes plays well, I think it'll be tough to argue that Rivers should be 1st team over him.

I think Zeller and Scott are locks. I think

I'm not sure where the Michael Snaer talk is coming from for 1st team. He's FSU's leading scorer, but he doesn't have a great FG% and he doesn't bring a ton to the table outside of that. And now that FSU is at best going to be #3 in the conference, there's no issue with the top team not having a 1st team guy.

If I had to guess now, I'd say the first team would be:
Zeller
Henson
Scott
Barnes
Stoglin/Marshall/Rivers

With the second team being
Stoglin/Marshall/Rivers
Stoglin/Marshall/Rivers
Leslie
Harris
Green/Brown/Mason

Third team being:
Green/Brown/Mason
Green/Brown/Mason
McKie
Snaer
James/Kadji

Duvall
02-28-2012, 12:04 PM
I'm not sure where the Michael Snaer talk is coming from for 1st team. He's FSU's leading scorer, but he doesn't have a great FG% and he doesn't bring a ton to the table outside of that. And now that FSU is at best going to be #3 in the conference, there's no issue with the top team not having a 1st team guy.


My guess is that people are contrasting Snaer's defensive contributions to Barnes' limited efforts in that area.

Des Esseintes
02-28-2012, 12:04 PM
Its certainly going to be an interesting selection. Statistically speaking, I'd have a hard time putting Rivers in ahead of Barnes. Barnes is outproducing Rivers in points, rebouns, steals, and blocks despite playing fewer minutes per game. He's got a better FG%, 3pt FG%, and FT%. He's turning the ball over less than Rivers. The only things in Rivers' favor right now seem to be assists and the game winner. If UNC wins this weekend and Barnes plays well, I think it'll be tough to argue that Rivers should be 1st team over him.


I agree. It may be an artifact of Barnes scuffling earlier in the season, but I think people here are sleeping on his numbers a bit. He's leading Carolina in scoring with 18ppg, getting 5 boards, shooting 40% from deep, and for all the talk of how he won't put the ball on the floor he's going to the line 5 times a game. And UNC only has two losses, so it's hard to argue the numbers are empty. Seems like a strong argument for first team to me. It is, of course, fair to say that both this season and last his hype have exceeded his play. That hardly means his play has been poor, though. It's been a notch below conference player of the year levels. There is little shame in falling short of that mark at age 19.

Some other ways in which he's conducted himself--there might be some shame there. But that's the subject of a different thread...

Wander
02-28-2012, 12:14 PM
Its certainly going to be an interesting selection. Statistically speaking, I'd have a hard time putting Rivers in ahead of Barnes. Barnes is outproducing Rivers in points, rebouns, steals, and blocks despite playing fewer minutes per game. He's got a better FG%, 3pt FG%, and FT%. He's turning the ball over less than Rivers. The only things in Rivers' favor right now seem to be assists and the game winner. If UNC wins this weekend and Barnes plays well, I think it'll be tough to argue that Rivers should be 1st team over him.

Actually, in ACC games, Rivers has better percentages than Barnes (both from three and general FG%, not sure about free throws). If Rivers has a good game against Carolina on Saturday and we win the game, I think that's enough to put him on 1st team ahead of Barnes.

devilsadvocate85
02-28-2012, 12:18 PM
This is meant to be a leading question -- What does it say about the respective coaches when you have two teams tied for the conference lead and one following closely behind; one of those teams has 3 serious contenders (two "locks") for the all-conference first team (including the likely conference POY) and the other two teams only have one player getting serious consideration for first team? Is it necessary to say that I love our coach?

slower
02-28-2012, 12:21 PM
Actually, in ACC games, Rivers has better percentages than Barnes (both from three and general FG%, not sure about free throws). If Rivers has a good game against Carolina on Saturday and we win the game, I think that's enough to put him on 1st team ahead of Barnes.

Yeah, but it seems to me that BOTH Barnes and Rivers will make First Team, along with Scott and Zeller and probably Henson. Are the cases strong enough for Stoglin or Snaer (or Marshall, although I just can't see four Holes making First Team, no matter how many lapdogs they have in the media) to supplant any of Barnes, Henson or Rivers?

Scott and Zeller are locks, as is Barnes, in MY mind. So, it's Rivers, Henson, Marshall, Snaer and Stoglin fighting for the other two spots? Barring any last-week craziness.

And somebody please refresh my memory - do tournament games count in the calculations?

CDu
02-28-2012, 12:26 PM
Actually, in ACC games, Rivers has better percentages than Barnes (both from three and general FG%, not sure about free throws). If Rivers has a good game against Carolina on Saturday and we win the game, I think that's enough to put him on 1st team ahead of Barnes.

That's a fair point on the in-conference percentages, though I wonder how much that will be taken into consideration. I do agree that Rivers will make 1st team if we beat UNC and he plays well. I don't know that I agree that it will be replacing Barnes, though.

CDu
02-28-2012, 12:30 PM
My guess is that people are contrasting Snaer's defensive contributions to Barnes' limited efforts in that area.

I disagree here. I don't know that Snaer is any better a defender than Barnes (who I actually think is pretty decent defensively). Snaer plays on a team with a fantastic defense (#9 nationally according to Pomeroy). But UNC's defense is also terrific (#13 nationally). Neither player is the lynchpin on those defenses (that would be Henson and James) but I'd say both are regarded as solid defensively. There's no doubt in my mind that Barnes is ahead of Snaer on the All-ACC list.

luvdahops
02-28-2012, 12:41 PM
That's a fair point on the in-conference percentages, though I wonder how much that will be taken into consideration. I do agree that Rivers will make 1st team if we beat UNC and he plays well. I don't know that I agree that it will be replacing Barnes, though.

My understanding is that in-conference stats tend to be assigned more weight than overall stats, and that team success and an individual's perceived contributions to / impact on team success are also given major consideration. I would give Rivers the edge on the last of these, and for now at least on the first as well. Overall team success is, of course, still TBD.

While I agree that Barnes will likely make it, I think you may underestimate the sense among ACC beat writers that Barnes has become a more one-dimensional player and has regressed on defense this year. I would be shocked if he gets more votes than either Zeller or Henson, who are both very strong two-way players.

jimsumner
02-28-2012, 12:41 PM
I disagree here. I don't know that Snaer is any better a defender than Barnes (who I actually think is pretty decent defensively). Snaer plays on a team with a fantastic defense (#9 nationally according to Pomeroy). But UNC's defense is also terrific (#13 nationally). Neither player is the lynchpin on those defenses (that would be Henson and James) but I'd say both are regarded as solid defensively. There's no doubt in my mind that Barnes is ahead of Snaer on the All-ACC list.

Michael Snaer is considered the best defensive perimeter player in the ACC. He's also the leading scorer on a nationally-ranked team that likely will finish third in the ACC. And he has two signature, buzzer-beaters.

That's an All-ACC resume. IMO.

CDu
02-28-2012, 12:45 PM
Michael Snaer is considered the best defensive perimeter player in the ACC. He's also the leading scorer on a nationally-ranked team that likely will finish third in the ACC. And he has two signature, buzzer-beaters.

That's an All-ACC resume. IMO.

Fair enough. I'll be shocked if Snaer is 1st team All-ACC over Barnes.

jimsumner
02-28-2012, 01:03 PM
Fair enough. I'll be shocked if Snaer is 1st team All-ACC over Barnes.

I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive. What's wrong with a Zeller-Scott-Rivers-Barnes-Snaer first team?

That leaves Stoglin off. But there are precedents for leaving the leading scorer off the first team and the guy's coach has called him out on more than one occasion.

CDu
02-28-2012, 01:07 PM
I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive. What's wrong with a Zeller-Scott-Rivers-Barnes-Snaer first team?

That leaves Stoglin off. But there are precedents for leaving the leading scorer off the first team and the guy's coach has called him out on more than one occasion.

It also leaves Henson off. I'd suspect that the DPoY winner and conference leader in rebounds and #2 in blocks who plays on the #1 or #2 team in the ACC would go ahead both Snaer and Stoglin.

jimsumner
02-28-2012, 04:21 PM
It also leaves Henson off. I'd suspect that the DPoY winner and conference leader in rebounds and #2 in blocks who plays on the #1 or #2 team in the ACC would go ahead both Snaer and Stoglin.


I suspect not everyone would agree with putting three UNC players on the first team and no FSU players on the first team.

CDu
02-28-2012, 04:39 PM
It also leaves Henson off. I'd suspect that the DPoY winner and conference leader in rebounds and #2 in blocks who plays on the #1 or #2 team in the ACC would go ahead both Snaer and Stoglin.



I suspect not everyone would agree with putting three UNC players on the first team and no FSU players on the first team.

That may be the case. However, this year it appears that three players from UNC are going to make it and no players from FSU are. And it makes sense. UNC is a better team than FSU, and more importantly they are much more reliant on their top 4 players than FSU is. FSU is a team that wins due to team defense and balance. They don't have any elite scorers (Snaer is closest, but he's far less efficient than some of the other elite scorers in the conference). I'm guessing we can find instances in which the #3 team in the conference didn't have a first team All-ACC performer.

If Snaer somehow makes it on the first team and one of Henson or Barnes doesn't, I'll be very surprised and very willing to eat crow. But I don't suspect that will happen.

sagegrouse
02-28-2012, 04:51 PM
That may be the case. However, this year it appears that three players from UNC are going to make it and no players from FSU are. And it makes sense. UNC is a better team than FSU, and more importantly they are much more reliant on their top 4 players than FSU is. FSU is a team that wins due to team defense and balance. They don't have any elite scorers (Snaer is closest, but he's far less efficient than some of the other elite scorers in the conference). I'm guessing we can find instances in which the #3 team in the conference didn't have a first team All-ACC performer.

If Snaer somehow makes it on the first team and one of Henson or Barnes doesn't, I'll be very surprised and very willing to eat crow. But I don't suspect that will happen.

CDu: Your comments are perspicacious (I have no idea what that means), but Sumner and I think that the voting process will penalize some of the UNC players.

Many voters will be reluctant to put three players from one team on a first-team ballot. So those who vote for two UNC players will spread them over four players. Similarly for those who vote for three. In 2003, first team All-ACC Dukies JWill, Boozer and Dunleavy were the only Duke players receiving votes.

Moreover, only one Duke, UVa and FSU player will receive first-team support, and those teams are having good seasons. I predict only scattered first-team support for others (Stoglin (Md) and C.J. Leslie (State)). Therefore, there are seven candidates for five positions. I personally don't think UNC will get three of those.

But maybe you are right, and fortunately we only have to wait a week to find out --

sagegrouse

Duvall
02-28-2012, 04:54 PM
That may be the case. However, this year it appears that three players from UNC are going to make it and no players from FSU are. And it makes sense. UNC is a better team than FSU, and more importantly they are much more reliant on their top 4 players than FSU is. FSU is a team that wins due to team defense and balance. They don't have any elite scorers (Snaer is closest, but he's far less efficient than some of the other elite scorers in the conference).

Efficient elite scorers? I thought we were talking about Harrison Barnes.

Snaer in conference play. (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/florida-state/michael-snaer?per_game=1&tempo_neutral=1&hide_rank=1&hide_conf_rank=1&game_type=2&chart1=points_avg&chart2=minutes_avg&chart3=fg_pct)
Barnes in conference play. (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/north-carolina/harrison-barnes?per_game=1&tempo_neutral=1&totals=1&hide_rank=1&hide_conf_rank=1&game_type=2&chart1=points_avg&chart2=minutes_avg&chart3=fg_pct)

CDu
02-28-2012, 05:04 PM
Efficient elite scorers? I thought we were talking about Harrison Barnes.

Snaer in conference play. (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/florida-state/michael-snaer?per_game=1&tempo_neutral=1&hide_rank=1&hide_conf_rank=1&game_type=2&chart1=points_avg&chart2=minutes_avg&chart3=fg_pct)
Barnes in conference play. (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/north-carolina/harrison-barnes?per_game=1&tempo_neutral=1&totals=1&hide_rank=1&hide_conf_rank=1&game_type=2&chart1=points_avg&chart2=minutes_avg&chart3=fg_pct)

I based that on overall play, in which Barnes is averaging a higher points per FGA, higher FG%, and higher 3pt% than Snaer. And he goes to the line more frequently than Snaer. I know that the writers are supposed to base it solely on ACC play. But I suspect that they let full-season play bias them. There's really no point in nitpicking each other on this, as none of us (to my knowledge) are voters. I think both Barnes and Henson are more likely to make 1st team than Snaer. Feel free to think differently on this.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-28-2012, 05:58 PM
I suspect not everyone would agree with putting three UNC players on the first team and no FSU players on the first team.

I thought All-ACC was supposed to be an individual acheivement award based on the caliber of play?

It shouldn't matter what team a player is on, (in a perfect world), should it?

The five best performing players to me are clearly Zeller,Scott,Henson,Rivers,Barnes.

My second five would be Snaer, Marshall, Stoglin,Leslie and Brown.

jimsumner
02-28-2012, 06:21 PM
I thought All-ACC was supposed to be an individual acheivement award based on the caliber of play?

It shouldn't matter what team a player is on, (in a perfect world), should it?

The five best performing players to me are clearly Zeller,Scott,Henson,Rivers,Barnes.

My second five would be Snaer, Marshall, Stoglin,Leslie and Brown.

Would you argue that team success shouldn't be a factor?

Wheat/"/"/"
02-28-2012, 06:49 PM
Would you argue that team success shouldn't be a factor?

Well, only as a tiebreaker if two players were considered of equal talent.

Duvall
02-28-2012, 06:53 PM
Well, only as a tiebreaker if two players were considered of equal talent.

Shouldn't talent be *completely* irrelevant here? Awards should handed out on performance and accomplishment, never potential.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-28-2012, 08:24 PM
Shouldn't talent be *completely* irrelevant here? Awards should handed out on performance and accomplishment, never potential.

Yes, you're right. I should have said performance instead of talent.

gep
03-01-2012, 11:49 PM
I saw this Coach K quote in the Feb 27 issue of SI....

************
Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said freshman guard Austin Rivers had to grow into the role of taking last-second shots -- like the one that beat North Carolina last week. "He's wanted the ball all season," Coach K said. "He didn't deserve the ball all season."
************
I agree, and for me, I think Austin is now READY:cool: His play from the first games in China to the last few... what a difference a "season" makes

CDu
03-02-2012, 10:22 AM
Dave Glenn talked about the All-ACC team yesterday on his radio show. He said that in discussions regarding the votes among the ACC Sports Journal voters, the first four are no-brainers: Zeller, Henson, Rivers, and Scott (in no particular order). After that, it's a tough call between guys like Barnes, Marshall, and others. The others he mentioned off-hand were Stoglin (leading ACC scorer a plus, attitude and team success a minus), Green ("unquestionably" among the top-10 talents, but team success a problem again), and Leslie.

In terms of Duke players, he said the only two guys he'd see making the list would be Rivers and Curry. He didn't feel that Kelly or Plumlee quite cut it. And he noted that having a deep, balanced team can be great for team success but also bad for individual accolades. He said that big-time scoring numbers are a plus, but there have been cases when the leading scorer didn't get voted 1st team. He added that sometimes voters will take that into account and "vote up" a player on a top team and penalize players on bad teams. But he didn't personally feel that anybody beyond Curry would get voted up. I'm inclined to disagree on this - I could see Mason getting 3rd team.

What does this mean? Maybe nothing. But his logic on the top four seems reasonable. Zeller is likely the ACC player of the year. Henson is likely to be the ACC defensive player of the year, the leading rebounder, and is among the conference's leading scorers as well. Scott is likely the runner up for ACC player of the year. And Rivers is the top player on possibly the top team in the ACC. If he's right, it will be very interesting to see who joins them to round out the first team.

hq2
03-02-2012, 02:31 PM
Don't see anyone besides Rivers on the first team. Now, when they make out the SECOND team, we may have two or three players on it.
That's why we're tied for #1 in the conference (as of today).

superdave
03-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Don't see anyone besides Rivers on the first team. Now, when they make out the SECOND team, we may have two or three players on it.
That's why we're tied for #1 in the conference (as of today).

Seth Curry is fairly likely a 3rd team Al-ACC guy but could elevate himself to 2nd team with another good game tomorrow. Mason and Ryan are likely Honorable Mention, but could elevate themselves with a really good game tomorrow.

If we get two players on the 2nd team, that means Austin slipped to 2nd and that's bad.

We're very balanced, like Dave Glenn said, but too many of our guys have no-showed for games to deserve the accolades we might think they deserve. Fortunately from a win-loss perspective, when you have 8 guys who can score the ball, four or five are on and we can endure off nights.

Bob Green
03-04-2012, 04:28 PM
Mike Scott went for 35 points and 11 rebounds in Virginia's 75-72 victory over Maryland. I guess he is not willing to concede Player-of-the-Year honors to Tyler Zeller.

slower
03-04-2012, 04:35 PM
Mike Scott went for 35 points and 11 rebounds in Virginia's 75-72 victory over Maryland. I guess he is not willing to concede Player-of-the-Year honors to Tyler Zeller.

Refresh my memory - do they select the All-ACC teams before or after the ACC tourney?

Bob Green
03-04-2012, 04:37 PM
Refresh my memory - do they select the All-ACC teams before or after the ACC tourney?

Before - the teams will be announced this week before the tournament tips-off.

CDu
03-04-2012, 05:08 PM
Seth Curry is fairly likely a 3rd team Al-ACC guy but could elevate himself to 2nd team with another good game tomorrow. Mason and Ryan are likely Honorable Mention, but could elevate themselves with a really good game tomorrow.

If we get two players on the 2nd team, that means Austin slipped to 2nd and that's bad.

We're very balanced, like Dave Glenn said, but too many of our guys have no-showed for games to deserve the accolades we might think they deserve. Fortunately from a win-loss perspective, when you have 8 guys who can score the ball, four or five are on and we can endure off nights.

Yup. Balance is great for the team perspective, not so great from an individual awards perspective.

With yesterday's result and the performances of Henson and Marshall in that game, I think the 1st team will be Zeller, Scott, Rivers, Henson, and Marshall.

It gets trickier with the 2nd and 3rd teams. But here's my guess:
2nd team: Leslie, Barnes, Snaer, Green, Stoglin
3rd team: some combination of Curry, Brown, Harris, McKie, Kadji, James, and Anderson

Honorable mention would include the leftovers from above plus some of Kelly, Mason, D. Scott, and R. Johnson

I would be surprised if anybody jumped up from the 2nd/3rd team list to the 1st team, and I'd be surprised if anyone jumped from the honorable mention list to the 2nd/3rd team.

Dukehky
03-04-2012, 09:15 PM
Has anybody heard anything on Austin's decision for next year? No mock draft that I've seen has him on the list, if they thought he may come out, I assume they would have put him on there since they have Davis, Drummond, etc freshmen on there. I don't see Austin leaving unless he has just a dynamite tournament and plays his way into the top 10, which would take a lot. He has a lot of stuff he can improve on, and can do so more easily in college while playing, instead of having to work on it in practice and maybe not getting much time in the pros. This is all wishful thinking, I don't think he can make a bad decision in this regard, but the only reason for him to go pro is because he doesn't want to wait. I think his stock isn't going to change very much, he doesn't need the money, its all about when he wants to go.

Mason has been playing his way out of the first round, and since we've been winning other than last night, when he played really well in the second half, hasn't really affected us. Again, i think Mason's decision will be largely affected by how he closes out the season in these tournaments, but also, probably more than most players, he will want to follow Miles in staying 4 years and having that experience, and hopefully getting to play with Marshall this year. Mason's draft stock rests solely on his potential and athleticism, and that's not going to change, and in my mind, it can only go up with more polished offensive game, god forbid an injury.

Miles is playing his way into the league and I'm pumped for him.

I really don't think Austin's going to get 1st team all ACC, I still think they're going 4 Heels and Mike Scott, can't say I disagree with that decision.

Bob Green
03-04-2012, 09:23 PM
Has anybody heard anything on Austin's decision for next year? No mock draft that I've seen has him on the list, if they thought he may come out, I assume they would have put him on there since they have Davis, Drummond, etc freshmen on there.

DraftExpress has him being selected at #15:

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012/

MyNBADraft has him going #21:

http://www.mynbadraft.com/2012-NBA-Mock-Draft

but it is too early to worry/discuss such things. Let's all enjoy the ACCT and NCAAT.

watzone
03-05-2012, 01:33 PM
The teams will be annouced at 2:30. I have vote and here is how my ballot looked and some reasoning behind the picks - corrected link - http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/03/my-ballot-for-all-acc-and-individual-awards/

ncexnyc
03-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Thanks for sharing this and I really appreciate it when a writer takes the time to share their reasoning with us.

superdave
03-05-2012, 01:59 PM
DraftExpress has him being selected at #15:

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012/

MyNBADraft has him going #21:

http://www.mynbadraft.com/2012-NBA-Mock-Draft

but it is too early to worry/discuss such things. Let's all enjoy the ACCT and NCAAT.

When Duke's season is done in April, I'd expect Austin to announce his plans within a few weeks. So maybe some news will come in mid-April.