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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 70, Virginia Tech 65 (OT) Post Game Thread



Bob Green
02-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Discuss the game here.

roywhite
02-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Whew. Gutted that one out.

Our defense was better than our offense today.

gotoguy
02-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Had the pleasure/privilege of attending in person.
Whew!

SupaDave
02-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Fighting through adversity. Learning from losses. Overtime. Buzzer beaters. Foul trouble. Rough play. This team will be a tough out come tourney time.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-25-2012, 01:27 PM
Phew. I've already exceeded the maximum allowable Tums for the next 48 hours.

sagegrouse
02-25-2012, 01:27 PM
Whew. Gutted that one out.

Our defense was better than our offense today.

Agreed. Kudos to all, especially Tyler, Miles, Seth, and Austin.

sagegrouse

diveonthefloor
02-25-2012, 01:28 PM
1) We won. Don't care how.
2) No one got seriously injured (I think Josh got stitches.)
3) GTHC!

RoyalBlue08
02-25-2012, 01:28 PM
I was very proud how the team toughed out the win today. I think either physically or emotionally we didn't quite have our edge today after the quick turnaround from Thursday night's game. But the guys fought hard anyway and played good D and got the W. I especially thought Tyler had a great defensive game and knocked down a few open jumpers too. Not sure if the Mason benching was for motivation or to reward the other guys or what, but he seemed to take forever to get into the game emotionally. But the last bit of the second half and overtime he started playing like a man and pulling in some big rebounds. Hopefully he can channel that aggressiveness for the rest of the season.

Son of Mojo
02-25-2012, 01:31 PM
Gutted it out for the win but the guys have got to improve their FT shooting and focus on both ends. Not trying to be too critical of the crowd, but the GTHC chant when THIS game is still in doubt is totally unnecessary. The "you let the whole team down" is funny situationally but is getting overused, too.

devildeac
02-25-2012, 01:31 PM
11 boards for AR, Seth and TT. Huge.

15 for Miles. Even huge-r.

Wander
02-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Duke is going to win its 5th national championship if we manage to survive our double overtime time against the 16 seed in the first round.

cspan37421
02-25-2012, 01:33 PM
When can VT move to the Big Ten?

Good win, but we should have finished at the FT line better, even Mason. Mason's been better at the line later in the year than earlier, but his 2nd FT at the end was really flat. And I think Austin just needs to pretend it's a difficult shot. ;-)

Wouldn't hurt him to use some glass more too ... he left a couple wide open fingertip lay-ins short as he halted his momentum too much before ball release (or released too late given his halt).

We're getting good at not choking away close games ... that's good ... but a) should it have been close? b) VT's gotta feel that they blew a great chance to steal one at Cameron.

Hope Tyler and Josh are OK. Next play!

Dukehky
02-25-2012, 01:33 PM
Casual 15 boards for Miles. MJ must have beaten the Monstars because Mason could hold on to the ball in overtime.

Sorry for the continuation on the Space Jam joke, I just found it to be really clever and my mom laughed out loud when I said it, and she rarely emits noises during Duke games, especially close ones.

Finally coming around on Thornton. I think he's shooting a little too much late in games (I'm good with him taking early J's if they're open, please don't get on me about Kansas, I'm as happy he made that last one as the next Dukie but it was lucky) but his defense today I found to be phenomenal, even if he didn't keep green in front of him the whole time, he was certainly in his rear end for 37 minutes today. Good for you young buck.

devildeac
02-25-2012, 01:35 PM
Listening to K now:
Gritted it out. TT good d as green took 19 shots to get 16 points.
Happy with W with 39 hour turn-around.
Miles was great with clutch boards.
Proud of team.
(typing too much to hear/remember much more)

CLW
02-25-2012, 01:38 PM
Free throws nearly came back and got us ala Miami game. Miles came up big on the boards and nailed the two free throws and Thornton really brought the energy on the defensive end.

CameronDuke
02-25-2012, 01:38 PM
Gutsy win that was up in the air from tip off to the final buzzer. We had the opportunity to extend the lead a few times in the second half and Virginia Tech fought back. Our free throw shooting as a team needs to improve, one that comes to mind is Austin missing a free throw near the end which would have won the game.

This team is battle tested no matter what is said about us. They have played in several nail biters and won most, except the Miami game and FSU game. The experience we gained today, at UNC, and vs. NCSU will only help is in the NCAA Tournament and down the road.

I think the Wake Forest game next week is a trap game. We need to bring a high level of focus and intensity and try not to look forward to the UNC game next Saturday.

I hope UVA can knock off the Heels today in Charlottesville!

Let's Go Duke!

BluDvlsN1
02-25-2012, 01:38 PM
Listening to K now:
Gritted it out. TT good d as green took 19 shots to get 16 points.
Happy with W with 39 hour turn-around.
Miles was great with clutch boards.
Proud of team.
(typing too much to hear/remember much more)

It's great as is, keep it up as much as your able.

arnie
02-25-2012, 01:40 PM
Casual 15 boards for Miles. MJ must have beaten the Monstars because Mason could hold on to the ball in overtime.

Sorry for the continuation on the Space Jam joke, I just found it to be really clever and my mom laughed out loud when I said it, and she rarely emits noises during Duke games, especially close ones.

Finally coming around on Thornton. I think he's shooting a little too much late in games (I'm good with him taking early J's if they're open, please don't get on me about Kansas, I'm as happy he made that last one as the next Dukie but it was lucky) but his defense today I found to be phenomenal, even if he didn't keep green in front of him the whole time, he was certainly in his rear end for 37 minutes today. Good for you young buck.

I didn't see this coming at all, but Miles is definitely outplaying his brother. Thought the key to our year would have to be Mason (still think it will be), but we're winning with poor/ineffective play by MP2. I just don't understand how he is regressed, particularly against teams with out great big men (BC and VPI). Anyway, good for Miles - he should continue to get more minutes.

UrinalCake
02-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Defense was really good in overtime, and our early lead forced them to jack up some shots (unfortunately they hit a couple of them). A letdown was expected, not only from a psychological standpoint but because of physical fatigue. Glad we were able to gut this one out.

jipops
02-25-2012, 01:42 PM
Excellent win. A lot of things went wrong but somehow our guys gutted this one out. One crucial point in particular - Thornton is clothes-lined out of bound but refs call it a turnover - vpi comes down and hits a bank 3. Most teams would have folded after that so fans could whine about officiating later. This team somehow managed to keep themselves in it and put themselves in a position to win. That is a real tribute to this team.

Mason had a pretty poor game in the first 39 minutes, but his offensive board at the end of regulation and his domination of the boards in overtime were huge - Miles too.

Again, excellent win.

cspan37421
02-25-2012, 01:42 PM
Duke is going to win its 5th national championship if we manage to survive our double overtime time against the 16 seed in the first round.

It will be 6; we already have 5 - because I decided to award one to Duke based on the 1999 season's body of work - and a frame-by-frame evaluation of officiating in the title game. What? Duke doesn't do that? Seems like I've heard of some school claiming a championship in a similar manner....

Saratoga2
02-25-2012, 01:43 PM
The team must have been very tired going in today, yet the rotations were really minimized. With that said, I think our defensive effort for most of the game was excellent. Tyler really had a great game as defensive stopper on Green. He also hit a couple of threes. Seth was also great defensively and played a really smart game. His scoring late in the game came at critical times. Austin was clearly tired but he never let off the throttle and kept going into the defense and getting fouled. He was a little off on his foul shooting, but it still was enough to keep us in the game. He is a big problem for other teams and no one has figured a way to totally stop him. Ryan played very well. I thought he picked up a couple of questionable fouls, but you have to accept some of that in a highly contested game. Miles also played big for us. We were a little slow on our defensive rebounds and were giving up too many offensive bounds. All that seemed to change late in the game as both Miles and Mason really hustled and got the crucial rebounds for us. Andre and Quinn didn't get much time, as the others were doing so well. Josh got a cut near his eye and didn't come back. I assume it took stitches and he may have seemed a little woozy, so they didn't bring him back. Have to keep and eye on that situation.

Give VT credit, they played with passion and kept pace with Duke. I really liked the play by play and color today. ESPN could learn a lot by listening to the guys that called our game today.

cspan37421
02-25-2012, 01:45 PM
I really liked the play by play and color today. ESPN could learn a lot by listening to the guys that called our game today.

At least one of them. Near the end of OT, when we were at the line, one of them said "VT hasn't taken a free throw in the overtime." To which the other responded, "Well, they've been taking perimeter shots." Facts are stubborn things indeed!

SupaDave
02-25-2012, 01:48 PM
I didn't see this coming at all, but Miles is definitely outplaying his brother. Thought the key to our year would have to be Mason (still think it will be), but we're winning with poor/ineffective play by MP2. I just don't understand how he is regressed, particularly against teams with out great big men (BC and VPI). Anyway, good for Miles - he should continue to get more minutes.

Tech's big men played very well today. They had many excellent shot fakes and put backs while displaying some pretty good footwork. One of the big reasons Ryan had 5 fouls.

SCMatt33
02-25-2012, 01:49 PM
I want to give Duke a huge break in this game for a lot of effort and energy stats. I know the commentator harped a lot on rest and "tired legs" for Duke, but this is not like when Lenny Elmore does it. I talked about this in the in game thread, but it's worth mentioning again. Va Tech had just about every single intangible and physical advantage you could have. Physically, Duke had one day of rest to travel in from Florida, while Va Tech had three days rest to come in from Blacksburg. Going back further, Duke had a trip that went Boston-Durham-Tallahassee-Durham in just 7 days, while Tech, while Tech had 2 home games before this in the last 8 days. Also, Duke had to go with a 3 man big guy rotation with Hairston's injury. This was a game where they really could have used him in spurts to give the other guys more rest. That's a huge physical advantage. Intangibly, Duke came off an emotional revenge win against a team it beat by 15 on the road and Tech was coming off a tough rivalry loss (which definitely has its own emotional toll), but had the revenge factor themselves. With the exception of Va Tech's recent in-state rivalry game, that's just about every physical and intangible advantage a team can have, not to mention that the game went an extra 5 minutes. So for those reasons, it's hard to criticize things like poor shooting, missing a lot of free throws early in OT, giving up a ton of offensive boards (including one that could have lost the game on the last possession), and allowing Va Tech to dominate the 50-50 ball battle.

Given these circumstances, there were some things that really impressed me. I thought the effort was great on defense compared to offense, especially in the first half. This is a team that all year has seemed to be a little more interested in offense because they're better at it, but they clearly gave what little energy they had to the defensive end. Give Tyler Thornton all the credit in the world for that. He did a great job disrupting plays, drawing charges, and helping to create turnovers, and it really rubbed off on the team. As the game went on, the team got more and more aggressive, with Rivers really going at the bucket hard, with Curry and even Miles getting in on the driving as well. They really hung in there mentally after a tough two, what appeared to be a missed foul on Thornton, and a stupid bank three put them down with not a lot of time left. In the last minute they got it down to 1, forced a turnover, tied it, and played good initial D on the last possession (though they did give up the open second shot). In OT, they almost never settled, going into full attack mode. Except for the last two by Curry with just .2 left, all of the free throws in OT were shot by Rivers and the Plumlees, who are Duke's worst from the line among regulars. They were able to shoot about their average as a group, 6-10, in spite of the fatigue and pressure. Big props especially to Miles hitting two big ones in a row.

While I gave them a big break today for the emotional and physical let down, it will have to get better soon, with the possibility of 3 games in three days in the ACC tourney and similar 1 day off turnarounds in the NCAA tourney. Given the travel schedule, I don't think that the Physical let down will be an issue, but they came out really sloppy in the first half emotionally, with a lot of lazy plays on offense, both in transition and in the half court. If I were coaching this team, that's what I'd be harping on them about tomorrow and would be challenging them big time to come out with intensity against Wake early. In fact, If they get caught looking ahead to Carolina in the first half against Wake, I'll be extremely disappointed after this big lesson today.

tendev
02-25-2012, 01:52 PM
We need to get more low post production. We are simply ignoring the Plumlees on the offensive end. Va Tech was over playing the three and as a result we had a tough outing beyond the arc. Greenberg's stategy was obviously to stop the 3, which I think was very smart. We shot 6-24 from beyond the arc and it was not because we just missed shots. Their defense was good outside because they weren't guarding us down low. Curry had more shots than Miles, Mason and Kelly combined. The lack of a low post production is the real weakness of this team but we are still getting it done and still at the top of the conference standings. Let's hope we can put 2 more wins on the board in the next 2 games.

SupaDave
02-25-2012, 01:55 PM
We need to get more low post production. We are simply ignoring the Plumlees on the offensive end. Va Tech was over playing the three and as a result we had a tough outing beyond the arc. Greenberg's stategy was obviously to stop the 3, which I think was very smart. We shot 6-24 from beyond the arc and it was not because we just missed shots. Their defense was good outside because they weren't guarding us down low. Curry had more shots than Miles, Mason and Kelly combined. The lack of a low post production is the real weakness of this team but we are still getting it done and still at the top of the conference standings. Let's hope we can put 2 more wins on the board in the next 2 games.

Mason touched the ball quite a few times today but was immediately double teamed. His footwork simply hasn't advanced to a level to be able to consistently attack the basket out of a double team.

Dr. Tina
02-25-2012, 02:02 PM
I'm listening to Capel's Instant Feedback session on Duke Radio.

Said Miles was terrific, playing really well. That he looks up to Zoubs. He said that Mason needs to get it going, but he thought that he did some really good things in OT.

They want TT to take open looks, but they really like his defensive intensity. He did a lot of good things today.

Josh has a concussion, which is why he didn't play the rest of the game. They will be cautious, but they said they missed his energy on the bench. They also like how he brings energy on the court, talks on D, etc. Said he was like TT in the post a bit.

Capel says the team has a strong desire to win. He's talking up our schedule and the 25 wins. Really proud of winning on an afternoon we weren't our best, and get ready for Wake now. He says they know their team and they need the guys to be consistent, but to be fresh...as fresh as possible physically...at this time of the year. Mentally, too. Rest, eating right, taking days off...to get away. He says they plan to come back Monday to prepare for Wake. It's a quick-turnaround game on Tuesday night.

I'm missing stuff I'm sure, but there's some of the highlights.

Saratoga2
02-25-2012, 02:03 PM
Mason touched the ball quite a few times today but was immediately double teamed. His footwork simply hasn't advanced to a level to be able to consistently attack the basket out of a double team.

He was alone inside at the basket twice and brought the ball up over his head twice and got blocked. He could have kept the defender away from the ball if he had anticipated that. He did get extremely active late in the game and that was a much needed part of the win.

Papa John
02-25-2012, 02:04 PM
While I gave them a big break today for the emotional and physical let down, it will have to get better soon, with the possibility of 3 games in three days in the ACC tourney and similar 1 day off turnarounds in the NCAA tourney. Given the travel schedule, I don't think that the Physical let down will be an issue, but they came out really sloppy in the first half emotionally, with a lot of lazy plays on offense, both in transition and in the half court. If I were coaching this team, that's what I'd be harping on them about tomorrow and would be challenging them big time to come out with intensity against Wake early. In fact, If they get caught looking ahead to Carolina in the first half against Wake, I'll be extremely disappointed after this big lesson today.

Agree with most everything you said, and very insightful analysis regarding both team's last week coming into this game. Regarding the potential for 3-games in 3-days in the ACC tourney and 1-day-off turnarounds in the NCAAs, however, there is a big difference in both situations in that your opponents in those venues are in the same boat as you.

Gutsy win today. This team has really been growing a lot in recent weeks.

MCFinARL
02-25-2012, 02:10 PM
I'm listening to Capel's Instant Feedback session on Duke Radio.

Said Miles was terrific, playing really well. That he looks up to Zoubs. He said that Mason needs to get it going, but he thought that he did some really good things in OT.

They want TT to take open looks, but they really like his defensive intensity. He did a lot of good things today.

Josh has a concussion, which is why he didn't play the rest of the game. They will be cautious, but they said they missed his energy on the bench. They also like how he brings energy on the court, talks on D, etc. Said he was like TT in the post a bit.

Capel says the team has a strong desire to win. He's talking up our schedule and the 25 wins. Really proud of winning on an afternoon we weren't our best, and get ready for Wake now. He says they know their team and they need the guys to be consistent, but to be fresh...as fresh as possible physically...at this time of the year. Mentally, too. Rest, eating right, taking days off...to get away. He says they plan to come back Monday to prepare for Wake. It's a quick-turnaround game on Tuesday night.

I'm missing stuff I'm sure, but there's some of the highlights.

Sorry to hear about the concussion for Josh--it's important to be careful with concussions, but I hope he isn't out too long. Even short minutes for Josh can be really valuable in terms of rest and avoiding foul trouble for the other bigs. And I hope Tyler doesn't also turn up with concussion symptoms after that screen.

NYBri
02-25-2012, 02:15 PM
VT really took the 3 away from us today. They were the anti-Heels in that they know how to guard the perimeter.

There were a couple of bad misses on the front ends of one-and-ones that will hurt us in middle March if we continue to do that.

As far as the tired legs are concerned, we have the AAC tourney coming up and then the dance. Tired legs can't be an issue. I thought that's why K likes to schedule tough early games with lots of travel. That can't be an excuse.

Gotta love the fact that we pulled this one out, though. Couple of weeks ago, we didn't seem to know how to win these.

Last point, the final foul on Kelly was big. Not only was it questionable, but it negated a late three by Curry which he canned on the play. That foul isn't called, the game isn't in OT.

On to Wake and then the rematch at home. Fun week coming up.

GTHC.

SCMatt33
02-25-2012, 02:20 PM
Agree with most everything you said, and very insightful analysis regarding both team's last week coming into this game. Regarding the potential for 3-games in 3-days in the ACC tourney and 1-day-off turnarounds in the NCAAs, however, there is a big difference in both situations in that your opponents in those venues are in the same boat as you.

Gutsy win today. This team has really been growing a lot in recent weeks.

I agree with this 99%, which is a big part of the reason that I don't think the physical part will be a big deal, but you can still have an emotional letdown when the other team doesn't. That part will be huge. The 1% is that the opponents will be in the same boat in potential second round/elite eight games, but Greensboro is a Friday/Sunday, and if Duke gets the fourth 1 seed and has to go out west, that is a Thursday regional. The two west coast subregionals are also Thursday/Saturday. The champion of the mountain west could easily get a 4/5 seed in either Portland or Albuquerqu. Duke will then be playing a team like New Mexico or UNLV in Phoenix on 3 days rest vs. 4 days rest and with the MWC team not having made a cross country flight. UNLV has the best resume out of the bunch right now, despite being a game behind New Mexico in the standings. That would be a scary matchup given those travel/rest circumstances. Of coarse that is the nightmare scenario and a lot would have to happen to make it come true, but in the Sweet 16 especially, our opponent might not be in the same boat.

jipops
02-25-2012, 02:26 PM
I want to give Duke a huge break in this game for a lot of effort and energy stats. I know the commentator harped a lot on rest and "tired legs" for Duke, but this is not like when Lenny Elmore does it. I talked about this in the in game thread, but it's worth mentioning again. Va Tech had just about every single intangible and physical advantage you could have. Physically, Duke had one day of rest to travel in from Florida, while Va Tech had three days rest to come in from Blacksburg. Going back further, Duke had a trip that went Boston-Durham-Tallahassee-Durham in just 7 days, while Tech, while Tech had 2 home games before this in the last 8 days. Also, Duke had to go with a 3 man big guy rotation with Hairston's injury. This was a game where they really could have used him in spurts to give the other guys more rest. That's a huge physical advantage. Intangibly, Duke came off an emotional revenge win against a team it beat by 15 on the road and Tech was coming off a tough rivalry loss (which definitely has its own emotional toll), but had the revenge factor themselves. With the exception of Va Tech's recent in-state rivalry game, that's just about every physical and intangible advantage a team can have, not to mention that the game went an extra 5 minutes. So for those reasons, it's hard to criticize things like poor shooting, missing a lot of free throws early in OT, giving up a ton of offensive boards (including one that could have lost the game on the last possession), and allowing Va Tech to dominate the 50-50 ball battle.


I think you're dead on here. The table was set very well for us to drop this one. Makes it all more the more impressive that we pulled this one out.

OldPhiKap
02-25-2012, 02:26 PM
When can VT move to the Big Ten?



VT and FSU are the most brutally physical teams in the conference. And we just played them back to back on a day's switch. What a great test, what resolve to win them both.

Very proud of the team, hope Jiggy is fine and recovers well/quickly.

cspan37421
02-25-2012, 02:33 PM
VT and FSU are the most brutally physical teams in the conference. And we just played them back to back on a day's switch. What a great test, what resolve to win them both.

I agree; but I find it interesting that the same could said for the other expansion teams, BC and Miami. All 4 play excessively physical basketball IMO, often leading to ugly, bruising, low-scoring affairs.

OldPhiKap
02-25-2012, 02:34 PM
I agree; but I find it interesting that the same could said for the other expansion teams, BC and Miami. All 4 play excessively physical basketball IMO, often leading to ugly, bruising, low-scoring affairs.

"Big East come South"

1 24 90
02-25-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm very happy that Duke is 13-3 in games decided by single digits. That shows that they know how to make winning plays late. Today's game was pretty much the mirror image of the Miami game (at least late since Duke wasn't down double digits today) and Duke found a way to win this one whereas they lost the Miami game. Good job guys!

camion
02-25-2012, 03:04 PM
This was the trap game and we escaped.

Kudos to the team for finding a way to win without our best stuff. We had no legs today, but hung in for the win.

Thank God for our outstanding free throw defense.

NYC Duke Fan
02-25-2012, 03:22 PM
Excellent win. A lot of things went wrong but somehow our guys gutted this one out. One crucial point in particular - Thornton is clothes-lined out of bound but refs call it a turnover - vpi comes down and hits a bank 3. Most teams would have folded after that so fans could whine about officiating later. This team somehow managed to keep themselves in it and put themselves in a position to win. That is a real tribute to this team.

Mason had a pretty poor game in the first 39 minutes, but his offensive board at the end of regulation and his domination of the boards in overtime were huge - Miles too.

Again, excellent win.

I am not sure how this was ," an excellent" win?, Yes we won and played good defense in the OT, but to call this an excellent win, I do not think so.Virginia Tech is 15-14 and 4-10 in the ACC, will not make the tournament and we were at home.

wilko
02-25-2012, 03:29 PM
I am not sure how this was ," an excellent" win?, Yes we won and played good defense in the OT, but to call this an excellent win, I do not think so.Virginia Tech is 15-14 and 4-10 in the ACC, will not make the tournament and we were at home.


It was an excellent win because we won!! The point is not VT but that we beat the "Trap game scenario".

NYC Duke Fan
02-25-2012, 03:36 PM
It was an excellent win because we won!! The point is not VT but that we beat the "Trap game scenario".

I guess that is what makes horse racing. A win is a win and we are just probably having a semantic argument over the word excellent.

gumbomoop
02-25-2012, 03:37 PM
Having posted on the striking discrepancy in Duke's prep-days disadvantage over the course of the ACC season.....


Duke plays 16 conference games this season. Of that total:
a. Games in which Duke & opponent have equal number of prep days = 6
b. Games in which opponent has more prep days than Duke = 9
c. Games in which Duke has more prep days than opponent = 1 [last game, UNC] [Btw, UNC is among the 9 in line b, above]

So, disparity will happen, but if prep days are useful to, well, prepare for one's opponent, Duke gets short end of that discrepancy stick, and noticeably so.

.... naturally I agree with SCMatt33 and Papa John.


I want to give Duke a huge break in this game for a lot of effort and energy stats. I know the commentator harped a lot on rest and "tired legs" for Duke, but this is not like when Lenny Elmore does it. I talked about this in the in game thread, but it's worth mentioning again. Va Tech had just about every single intangible and physical advantage you could have. Physically, Duke had one day of rest to travel in from Florida, while Va Tech had three days rest to come in from Blacksburg. Going back further, Duke had a trip that went Boston-Durham-Tallahassee-Durham in just 7 days, while Tech, while Tech had 2 home games before this in the last 8 days.


Agree with most everything you [SCMatt33] said, and very insightful analysis regarding both team's last week coming into this game. Regarding the potential for 3-games in 3-days in the ACC tourney and 1-day-off turnarounds in the NCAAs, however, there is a big difference in both situations in that your opponents in those venues are in the same boat as you.

And I'm not surprised that K has noticed this discrepancy....


.... K doesn't complain about it. I have to assume he and the staff occasionally notice.

.... especially in this particularly discrepant case [as detailed by SCMatt33]. Good thing it wasn't a Thurs night 9:00 in Boston, followed by a noon Sat in Tally. Certainly Brant and Alexander talked so much about tired legs because, as they specifically said early in the broadcast, K expressed some concern when they spoke to him before the game.

I have to assume it has been on his mind some, as Brant and Alexander quoted K as saying - accurately, I might add, as you can see from the numbers above - that in a majority of Duke's ACC games, the opponent has had more prep time. And the discrepancy is actually more striking still, for no team comes anywhere close to Duke in total number of prep days lacking. [To give just the "outliers": over the course of the ACC season, Duke is -11 in prep days; BC is -6; Clemson is +8, Miami +7.]

Of course K has to walk a fine line here, for he wants neither to seem to be nor to be a complainer. But this final discrepancy seems to have got to him a little bit. [Not as much as it has gotten to me, of course; but still, just a little.]


Listening to K now:
Happy with W with 39 hour turn-around.

Greg_Newton
02-25-2012, 04:49 PM
Just wanted to give some props to Mason for showing up big time after Ryan fouled out. He was having a HORRIBLE game, but made some huge plays down the stretch for us. Wouldn't have made it to OT without him, IMO.

hq2
02-25-2012, 04:54 PM
I am not sure how this was ," an excellent" win?, Yes we won and played good defense in the OT, but to call this an excellent win, I do not think so.Virginia Tech is 15-14 and 4-10 in the ACC, will not make the tournament and we were at home.

Yes, thank you. We managed to get by at home against a mediocre (bad ACC) team. When it's late in the season and the team's tired,
we'll take Ws any way we can, but we still could have done a bit better. Nice to see Miles continue doing his late-Zoubs impression.

Greg_Newton
02-25-2012, 05:48 PM
Yes, thank you. We managed to get by at home against a mediocre (bad ACC) team. When it's late in the season and the team's tired,
we'll take Ws any way we can, but we still could have done a bit better. Nice to see Miles continue doing his late-Zoubs impression.

It wasn't exactly a warm-and-fuzzies game, but I think it was another important show of toughness by our team. Coming into the game banged up, jet lagged and with less than 40 hours of rest from the most intense game of the year, I wasn't ever really hoping for anything except to get out of it alive. The fact that we did so in OT on tired legs after being down three with a minute left is impressive (even if we maybe shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place), and hopefully another stepping stone for growth for our quickly-maturing-and-gelling team.

Newton_14
02-25-2012, 05:51 PM
To me the performance today was 100% about the short turn around. I was cussing the ACC the entire game. What they are making these kids do is freaking ridiculous an ignorant. That's as close to "a scheduled loss" as you can get. Having a team play an away game on Thursday Night, then slot them into the 12pm start time on Saturday is just wrong. Add to those circumstances that VaTech had not played since Tuesday, and you have a recipe for disaster. Duke somehow overcame all of that and squeaked out the win, but were very fortunate to do so. The ACC did the exact same thing to NC State last weekend. Both State and Duke had to go "Road Game Thursday Night", "Noon start at home on Sat", then another game Tuesday Night. At home for State, road game for Duke in that third outing. The Thurs to Saturday turnaround would not be so bad if the tipoff on Sat was 7pm or 9pm. Anyway, rant over, and we dodged a huge bullet, but it doesn't make it ok in my book.

I thought the defense today was really good, especially on the perimeter. Tyler has gotten much better with his on ball defense, and the team as a whole communicates, and rotates better. If they can keep playing defense at that level good things will happen. Another strong outing for Miles, and even though Mason struggled on offense, he played good defense and both he and Miles rebounded like madmen down the stretch. That was huge. I loved Miles draining those two free throws to close the door on the Hokies as well.

Austin is now a beast, and a serious weapon. His decision making has become really good for the most part, and he now does a good job of knowing when to dish and when to finish. Seth has stepped it up as well.

The guys were out of sync much of the day on offense making uncharacteristic mistakes but I attribute most of that to the aforementioned short turn around. A lot of physical and mental fatigue from the very physical FSU game. I imagine the guys will sleep well tonight, likely with ice packs wrapped around various body parts. Seth and Austin with recent ankle injuries, Josh cut and battered, and Tyler got killed on that pick. Many bumps and bruises that will need healing as they head into the showdown next weekend.

Tough team. Very tough.

NYC Duke Fan
02-25-2012, 06:10 PM
It wasn't exactly a warm-and-fuzzies game, but I think it was another important show of toughness by our team. Coming into the game banged up, jet lagged and with less than 40 hours of rest from the most intense game of the year, I wasn't ever really hoping for anything except to get out of it alive. The fact that we did so in OT on tired legs after being down three with a minute left is impressive (even if we maybe shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place), and hopefully another stepping stone for growth for our quickly-maturing-and-gelling team.

Not to beat a dead horse, but how is it ," jet lag", flying from Talahassee to Raleigh-Durham. In the tournament we will have approximately the same amount of rest.

MaxAMillion
02-25-2012, 06:16 PM
I am not sure how this was ," an excellent" win?, Yes we won and played good defense in the OT, but to call this an excellent win, I do not think so.Virginia Tech is 15-14 and 4-10 in the ACC, will not make the tournament and we were at home.

It is an excellent win because the team was physically and mentally fatigued after a tough game against FSU. They had a very quick turnaround after playing in Tallahassee on Thursday. They were far from 100%. This isn't a video game where players perform according to their attributes. Duke had less rest than Va Tech and they were not there emotionally at the same level as Tech. That is why K is talking about being proud of his team's performance today.

Indoor66
02-25-2012, 06:23 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but how is it ," jet lag", flying from Talahassee to Raleigh-Durham. In the tournament we will have approximately the same amount of rest.

In the tournament we have no travel. Just back to the hotel and to bed. After Fl State, we got home around 2:00 A.M. Friday morning - so to bed at what, 3:30 - 4:00. We then play again at Noon Saturday - about 30 - 32 hours later. That is nothing like the tournament.

uh_no
02-25-2012, 06:32 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but how is it ," jet lag", flying from Talahassee to Raleigh-Durham. In the tournament we will have approximately the same amount of rest.

You don't have to travel over the 2 day breaks in the tournament.

I'm of the opinion that what the heck, make it as hard as possible...make us play 3 straight days against teams with a month off...If we get beat, we get beat....its about making us ready for the tournament....It's like the batter who swings the bat with a doughnut while on deck....makes him quicker in the box. We make games artificially hard during the regular season, and wehn we get teams on equal terms in the post season, it should be easier.....May it make it harder to win a regular season title? maybe....but we don't have any say in the schedule anyway...so whats wrong with seeing it in a positive light.

As others have pointed out, the numbers are skewed since we play in our off days in the acc schedule. THe acc can't do anything about that. I also believe that CBS picks the game time....and the big games is usually at noon on saturday...I'm not sure the ACC had any say about that.

BY my count we had turnarounds of:
days:times
2:2
3:6
4:4
5:2
8:1

UNC on the other hand had
2:1
3:6
4:6
5:1
7:1

You'll see we had one more 2 day turnaround.....hardly out of line

FSU had
2:1
3:6
4:5
5:2
6:1

Now obviously there isn't going to be a huge variation in these numbers since the teams play the same number of games in the same number of days (about)....I'm going to venture that the ACC really doesn't pay attention to which team had a longer rest coming into a game, and certainly doesn't track how many times one team has had a longer rest over teh course of the season. As such, I don't think there is any conspiracy. I'm guessing if we were to look at the number of times one team had a longer prep over the course of, say, a decade, it would be about even.

That said, I think the league could do better at ensuring that teams don't have a 2 day turnover with an away game as the first game.....I'm guessing they just don't give it much thought.

gumbomoop
02-25-2012, 07:19 PM
BY my count we had turnarounds of:
days:times
2:2
3:6
4:4
5:2
8:1

UNC on the other hand had
2:1
3:6
4:6
5:1
7:1

You'll see we had one more 2 day turnaround.....hardly out of line

FSU had
2:1
3:6
4:5
5:2
6:1

Now obviously there isn't going to be a huge variation in these numbers since the teams play the same number of games in the same number of days (about)

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way, but anyhow I'm thinking the comparisons you cite here are not the issue. Rather, (1) for each ACC game, do the teams have the same # of prep days? And (2) over the course of the season is there a significant discrepancy ["huge variation'] among the 12 teams re +/or/- prep days?

For both (1) and (2) Duke is the outlier, having (1) far more games than any other team [only BC - go figure - is even close] in which they are disadvantaged by fewer prep days, and (2) easily the largest total disadvantage-discrepancy.

I suppose one could argue about what constitutes "huge variation," but I assert that Duke is the clear outlier, in a clearly disadvantageous prep-days way, for both (1) and (2).

I concede that it may well be nothing more than coincidence that in Duke's 2 losses, the opponent had more prep days than did Duke: FSU (in CIS) had 2 extra days, and Miami (in CIS) had 1 extra day. Indeed, as Duke is the outlier - but also is 12-2 - that means plenty of times - 7 to be exact - Duke won over an opponent that had more prep time.

Fwiw, Wake and Duke both played today, so neither team has a prep-time advantage for Tuesday's game. And the only game out of its 16 that Duke has the extra prep day will be for the season finale v. UNC [who, incidentally, had an extra prep day for the game in 3 Rivers].

uh_no
02-25-2012, 07:26 PM
Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way, but anyhow I'm thinking the comparisons you cite here are not the issue. Rather, (1) for each ACC game, do the teams have the same # of prep days? And (2) over the course of the season is there a significant discrepancy ["huge variation'] among the 12 teams re +/or/- prep days?

For both (1) and (2) Duke is the outlier, having (1) far more games than any other team [only BC - go figure - is even close] in which they are disadvantaged by fewer prep days, and (2) easily the largest total disadvantage-discrepancy.

I suppose one could argue about what constitutes "huge variation," but I assert that Duke is the clear outlier, in a clearly disadvantageous prep-days way, for both (1) and (2).

I concede that it may well be nothing more than coincidence that in Duke's 2 losses, the opponent had more prep days than did Duke: FSU (in CIS) had 2 extra days, and Miami (in CIS) had 1 extra day. Indeed, as Duke is the outlier - but also is 12-2 - that means plenty of times - 7 to be exact - Duke won over an opponent that had more prep time.

Fwiw, Wake and Duke both played today, so neither team has a prep-time advantage for Tuesday's game. And the only game out of its 16 that Duke has the extra prep day will be for the season finale v. UNC [who, incidentally, had an extra prep day for the game in 3 Rivers].

NO no, you're right. I realized in the course of writing that post that each team would have roughly the same average total gap between games...since the total number of days and games are the same. I just want to make sure that when you say "prep days" you ignore the non acc game we played against st johns in the middle of the ACC season. It's not the ACC's fault we schedule that game. You may have done that already, but just making sure.

One could argue still that 1 season is too small a sample size to garner anything. To get a better idea, If duke was a significant outlier over the course of a decade, then THAT is certainly something.

SoCalDukeFan
02-25-2012, 07:41 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but how is it ," jet lag", flying from Talahassee to Raleigh-Durham. In the tournament we will have approximately the same amount of rest.

1. No travel, big difference.
2. Opponent has about the same amount of time between games, another difference.

SoCal

gumbomoop
02-25-2012, 08:13 PM
I just want to make sure that when you say "prep days" you ignore the non acc game we played against st johns in the middle of the ACC season. It's not the ACC's fault we schedule that game. You may have done that already, but just making sure.

One could argue still that 1 season is too small a sample size to garner anything. To get a better idea, If duke was a significant outlier over the course of a decade, then THAT is certainly something.

I ignored the SJ game in one sense, because it was irrelevant. That is, because it wasn't an ACC game, I didn't care whether Duke or SJ had any prep-days advantage when they played each other. But to be sure I'm understood, for Duke's game after SJ - v. VT - the relevant calculation was to compare when Duke and VT last played [anybody, i.e., when they last played a game] before they played each other in Blacksburg. So ...... Duke and VT played each other on 2/2. For that game, Duke and VT had the same # of prep-days, as both had played on 1/28 [Duke v. SJ, and VT v. Md]. Thus, in this second, relevant, sense, I did not, could not, ignore the SJ game.

[Edit -- Even if one thinks I should have ignored the SJ even when calculating prep-days for that first VT game, Duke is still easily the outlier. Ignoring the fact that Duke actually played SJ, in effect pretending that Duke had several extra prep days for that first VT game, would change Duke's outlier status only minimally. It would mean that Duke would have one fewer game for which it and its opponent had the same # of prep days, and it would add one game in which Duke had more prep days than its opponent. But it would not change at all the number of games in which Duke's opponent had more prep days than did Duke; that number remains 9, far more than all the other ACC teams, with only BC coming "close," with 6 such discrepancy-disadvantages.]

As to sample size, I agree one season does not a conspiracy make. For several years, my paranoia had me convinced that Duke perennially got shafted re unbalanced mess. But I had to drop that for this season, as my analysis led me to conclude prior to this season that Duke had a relatively easy unbalanced mess this year: no @UVa, @Miami, @NCSt, and other reasons I explained in far too much detail on probably several threads. IMO, for instance, UNC had a slightly tougher schedule than did Duke this season.

As several posters have noted, if the ACC would simply eliminate these extremely short turnarounds, involving Thurs night/travel/early Sat game, I think that would be a bit fairer. Here's a concrete example: for the FSU game in CIS, Duke had 2 fewer prep days. FSU played on Tues, Duke on Thurs, then they played each other on Sat. [Posters may recall this tilt.....] And while I didn't like the fact that FSU had more prep time, at least Duke's turnaround was quite different from the current [FSU, then early Sat VT] example. In that earlier example, Duke played at home, 7 pm Thurs 1/19, and then also at home, late Sat aft 1/21. No travel, no early Sat game. Yes, Duke lost that one, but whether FSU's extra prep time had any effect on the outcome, one couldn't say Duke seemed tired in that one. I recall a thrilling game.

Wait..... Come to think of it, you don't suppose Snaer practiced a lot of desperation 3s for 2 extra days..... Reminds me of Bob Dylan's suspicion of 'ol Betsy Ross, on discovering "red stripes in the American flag." ["Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues"]

uh_no
02-25-2012, 08:18 PM
I ignored the SJ game in one sense, because it was irrelevant. That is, because it wasn't an ACC game, I didn't care whether Duke or SJ had any prep-days advantage when they played each other. But to be sure I'm understood, for Duke's game after SJ - v. VT - the relevant calculation was to compare when Duke and VT last played [anybody, i.e., when they last played a game] before they played each other in Blacksburg. So ...... Duke and VT played each other on 2/2. For that game, Duke and VT had the same # of prep-days, as both had played on 1/28 [Duke v. SJ, and VT v. Md]. Thus, in this second, relevant, sense, I did not, could not, ignore the SJ game.

As to sample size, I agree one season does not a conspiracy make. For several years, my paranoia had me convinced that Duke perennially got shafted re unbalanced mess. But I had to drop that for this season, as my analysis led me to conclude prior to this season that Duke had a relatively easy unbalanced mess this year: no @UVa, @Miami, @NCSt, and other reasons I explained in far too much detail on probably several threads. IMO, for instance, UNC had a slightly tougher schedule than did Duke this season.

As several posters have noted, if the ACC would simply eliminate these extremely short turnarounds, involving Thurs night/travel/early Sat game, I think that would be a bit fairer. Here's a concrete example: for the FSU game in CIS, Duke had 2 fewer prep days. FSU played on Tues, Duke on Thurs, then they played each other on Sat. [Posters may recall this tilt.....] And while I didn't like the fact that FSU had more prep time, at least Duke's turnaround was quite different from the current [FSU, then early Sat VT] example. In that earlier example, Duke played at home, 7 pm Thurs 1/19, and then also at home, late Sat aft 1/21. No travel, no early Sat game. Yes, Duke lost that one, but whether FSU's extra prep time had any effect on the outcome, one couldn't say Duke seemed tired in that one. I recall a thrilling game.

Wait..... Come to think of it, you don't suppose Snaer practiced a lot of desperation 3s for 2 extra days..... Reminds me of Bob Dylan's suspicion of 'ol Betsy Ross, on discovering "red stripes in the American flag." ["Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues"]

I think it is a mistake to count ST johns when you are saying our prep was equal to VT. We schedule that game. The ACC gives us a week off, and we would be much closer to the other teams, and we put a game there. I'm not sure how you can complain about something that is at least some way self imposed.

NYC Duke Fan
02-25-2012, 08:27 PM
1. No travel, big difference.
2. Opponent has about the same amount of time between games, another difference.

SoCal

Those are valid points

gumbomoop
02-25-2012, 08:40 PM
I think it is a mistake to count ST johns when you are saying our prep was equal to VT. We schedule that game. The ACC gives us a week off, and we would be much closer to the other teams, and we put a game there. I'm not sure how you can complain about something that is at least some way self imposed.

Between the time I posted last and your response, I edited to add a paragraph addressing this issue, so you probably didn't get to read it.

I see that we disagree about the "ignoring SJ" issue. But when you read my edit-addition, I hope you'll see that, even taking your view, Duke's outlier status does not change.

The SJ-as-extra-game-so-don't-blame-ACC is an interesting issue. But it doesn't change the point that Duke was discrepancy-disadvantaged far more than any other team.

I suspect K actually spoke publicly about it this time because this FSU-VT turnaround was a pretty lousy deal.

uh_no
02-25-2012, 09:03 PM
Between the time I posted last and your response, I edited to add a paragraph addressing this issue, so you probably didn't get to read it.

I see that we disagree about the "ignoring SJ" issue. But when you read my edit-addition, I hope you'll see that, even taking your view, Duke's outlier status does not change.

The SJ-as-extra-game-so-don't-blame-ACC is an interesting issue. But it doesn't change the point that Duke was discrepancy-disadvantaged far more than any other team.

I suspect K actually spoke publicly about it this time because this FSU-VT turnaround was a pretty lousy deal.

Ah. Thanks for the notice. Yeah we still are, for sure, and there's no doubt that it was tough for us today, but we stuck it out, and we'll be that much more prepared when we have to come off 1 and 2 days rest in the post season....we have some extra experience to draw on that our opponents don't. I think coach K would probabyl tell the teams the same thing when, say, we're playing for a final 4 birth (or any other quick turnaround)...."hey, we've had the 2 day turnaround...remember what we did to VT? the guys we're playing don't have that to draw on"

roywhite
02-25-2012, 10:21 PM
Ah. Thanks for the notice. Yeah we still are, for sure, and there's no doubt that it was tough for us today, but we stuck it out, and we'll be that much more prepared when we have to come off 1 and 2 days rest in the post season....we have some extra experience to draw on that our opponents don't. I think coach K would probabyl tell the teams the same thing when, say, we're playing for a final 4 birth (or any other quick turnaround)...."hey, we've had the 2 day turnaround...remember what we did to VT? the guys we're playing don't have that to draw on"

Also had the NCAA type weekend schedule earlier in the season with Wake on a Thursday night, followed by FSU on a Saturday afternoon.
That one didn't work out as well, though I agree with your point that K is very likely to remind his team about being experienced with quick turnarounds when we do get in the NCAA Tournament.

Sixthman
02-25-2012, 10:34 PM
Just wanted to give some props to Mason for showing up big time after Ryan fouled out. He was having a HORRIBLE game, but made some huge plays down the stretch for us. Wouldn't have made it to OT without him, IMO.

It was amazing to see the contrast. Mason looked like he was playing in slow motion until the very end, when he stepped up big time.

roywhite
02-25-2012, 10:41 PM
It was amazing to see the contrast. Mason looked like he was playing in slow motion until the very end, when he stepped up big time.

Is it possible that Mason, our Academic All-American, sometimes thinks too much on the court and can fail to move with his natural gracefulness?
He certainly swung into action late and swooped in for some big plays and rebounds.

kmspeaks
02-25-2012, 10:42 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but how is it ," jet lag", flying from Talahassee to Raleigh-Durham. In the tournament we will have approximately the same amount of rest.

Since I'm typing and not speaking to you face to face I want to be clear that there is no hint of sarcasm or rudeness in this question, I'm just curious, did you play a sport in college?

"Jet lag" may not be the appropriate word but I can almost guarantee you the guys were tired today. I played softball in college and I was always more tired after one of those bus rides/flights than I've ever been traveling for vacation or business. You play a high intensity, emotional game and then you go get on a plane. It takes awhile for adrenaline to leave and your mind to slow down. By the time you're ready to get some sleep (as much as you can on a plane) you're almost home. Then there's the bus ride to campus and a drive to your dorm or apartment. You fall into bed for a few hours before you're back up for class and a normal day. Then who knows what time they had to be up and at CIS on Saturday morning for treatment, shoot around, etc. It's probably earlier than most 18-22 year olds would like to get up on a Saturday.

jipops
02-25-2012, 11:13 PM
I am not sure how this was ," an excellent" win?, Yes we won and played good defense in the OT, but to call this an excellent win, I do not think so.Virginia Tech is 15-14 and 4-10 in the ACC, will not make the tournament and we were at home.

Because it was a win vs an ACC opponent where a bunch of intangibles outlined by SCMatt were against us. You just can't take wins like these for granted. This win required a counter intangble - grit. There was no way the vpi game was going to be pretty. For a team that has been in search of leadership all season, showing obvious fatigue against a fresh opponent, to pull this one out - yea it's excellent.

hillsborodevil
02-25-2012, 11:31 PM
I also commend a tired Duke team pulling out the win, but why does K allow the opposition to take the last shot in regulation to win? Just my opinion but I beleive Duke is extremly lucky to have this W. VT had something like 20 seconds in regulation to bring the ball up and execute a set play getting two shots at the basket.

I would've fouled with 15 to 20 seconds, put them on the FT line, and had possesion of the ball either down by 1 or 2 placing faith in the hands of AR/Seth/etc (UNC can attest)

Box Score - VT shot %43.8 from the line. Consider the pressure on a visiting player with FT's @ the end of a close game, at CIS, the beloved Cameron Crazies, and a national TV audience.

Enough ranting, I'm still smiling about AR's last second shot in Chapel Hill. Go Duke!!!

gam7
02-25-2012, 11:41 PM
I'm of the opinion that what the heck, make it as hard as possible...make us play 3 straight days against teams with a month off...If we get beat, we get beat....its about making us ready for the tournament....It's like the batter who swings the bat with a doughnut while on deck....makes him quicker in the box. We make games artificially hard during the regular season, and wehn we get teams on equal terms in the post season, it should be easier.....May it make it harder to win a regular season title? maybe....but we don't have any say in the schedule anyway...so whats wrong with seeing it in a positive light.



Not the best analogy - there is convincing evidence that swinging a doughnut actually slows down bat speed (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903341404576482291550957386.html).

trinity79
02-26-2012, 12:37 AM
Can anyone tell me which game Andre Dawkins was playing in today? And Mason Plumlee's scoring totals lately have been abysmal. Viewed in that light, I guess you could make the argument that we are playing well at less than 100% efficiency. Of course, that line of reasoning assumes we will somehow turn on "100%" at some point before the NCAA tournament. The way this season has gone, I'm really not sure. I'm thinking Coach K probably has already communicated some version of this observation to his troops, and maybe it's partially (i.e. the Dawkins part) a byproduct of having so many talented guards on this year's team. And, hey, if his inconsistency leads young Mason to return for his senior (undoubtedly all-ACC) season, I ain't looking that gift horse in the mouth either.

airowe
02-26-2012, 12:55 AM
I didn't see this coming at all, but Miles is definitely outplaying his brother. Thought the key to our year would have to be Mason (still think it will be), but we're winning with poor/ineffective play by MP2. I just don't understand how he is regressed, particularly against teams with out great big men (BC and VPI). Anyway, good for Miles - he should continue to get more minutes.

He's really only out played Mason for four games. Guys have slumps and Mason is definitely in one now, but I'm confident Mason can break out of it just like Austin and Seth did earlier this season.

gus
02-26-2012, 09:46 AM
I also commend a tired Duke team pulling out the win, but why does K allow the opposition to take the last shot in regulation to win? Just my opinion but I beleive Duke is extremly lucky to have this W. VT had something like 20 seconds in regulation to bring the ball up and execute a set play getting two shots at the basket.

I would've fouled with 15 to 20 seconds, put them on the FT line, and had possesion of the ball either down by 1 or 2 placing faith in the hands of AR/Seth/etc (UNC can attest)

Duke shot 38.5% from the field. VT shot 40.9%. Would you rather have a 38.5% chance to win, or a 59.1% chance to win? I'm over simplifying this, but only a little. Shooting for the win is more dramatic, but loses more often.

eta- there are other considerations too. For example - making the 2nd free throw gives them a chance to set the defense decreasing our odds of scoring. There is a chance that they could rebound a missed FT, and turn a tie game into a 3 point game, or worse, a 2 possession game. Add it all up, and intentionally fouling your opponent to give yourself the chance to win on a buzzer beater is a bad strategy.

chrishoke
02-26-2012, 09:56 AM
Duke shot 38.5% from the field. VT shot 40.9%. Would you rather have a 38.5% chance to win, or a 59.1% chance to win? I'm over simplifying this, but only a little. Shooting for the win is more dramatic, but loses more often.

eta- there are other considerations too. For example - making the 2nd free throw gives them a chance to set the defense decreasing our odds of scoring. There is a chance that they could rebound a missed FT, and turn a tie game into a 3 point game, or worse, a 2 possession game. Add it all up, and intentionally fouling your opponent to give yourself the chance to win on a buzzer beater is a bad strategy.

And no one does it, for very good reasons.

AsiaMinor
02-26-2012, 10:45 AM
1. I become quite agitated when I read bad mean things about Andre. He may not be consistent, that's his weakness, but when he brings it, he brings it and at least he can bring it. No, he doesn't bring it every game, wish he did. But he is who he is, perhaps he will grow and conquer what prevents this. No matter what, I like him and appreciate him on our team.

2. Maybe Mason has something else on his mind. It's a big world, and lots of it takes place off the bb court. Perhaps he got some bad news about NBA recruitment, girl issues, or something else. Again, he's been a big contributor, and there is no need to bash him for a couple bad games.

I don't think any of these teenagers go out there thinking: today I will not succeed. Be a little more realistic.

hillsborodevil
02-26-2012, 11:07 AM
Duke shot 38.5% from the field. VT shot 40.9%. Would you rather have a 38.5% chance to win, or a 59.1% chance to win? I'm over simplifying this, but only a little. Shooting for the win is more dramatic, but loses more often.

I think you meant VT had a 40.9% chance of winning in regulation and Duke had a 59.1% chance of extending the game to overtime. A ton of posts here agree Duke was tired.

In addition, most teams will take the last shot with a few seconds left to have a chance of rebounding and making a second attempt - which actually occured - now what are the odds of VT winning in regulation with two shots?

Of course there is a ton of "what if" scenarios - but my preference is to have possesion down by 1 versus defending to extend the game to OT with an exhausted Duke team.

Devilsfan
02-26-2012, 11:08 AM
Andre just didn't seem to have his head in the game yesterday. He might have been spent from that great performance in Fla., had a fight with his girl friend, or perhaps hasn't studied for an upcoming test. At one point after committing a turnover he assumed K was removing him from the court and when he realized he was not being taken out, he made a gesture to his teammates on the bench that suggested he should be for his mistakes. He was removed at the next stoppage of play.
Remember he has been through a lot at Duke, coming early and experiencing an awful tragedy in his life while adjusting to college as an elite, high profile athlete at an elite academic institution.
I hate to read threads asking where his game was yesterday. He is a terrific young man, IMO and I for one am glad he is at Duke. There have been a couple of games this year we lose without Andre's play.

Devilsfan
02-26-2012, 11:17 AM
I saw something very positive yesterday at crunch time. Mason went up for a defensive rebound and instead of trying to tap the ball out or come down with one hand he actually put two hands on the ball above the rim and then securely came down with the ball. He was as others have said terrific after Ryan could out.

Class of '94
02-26-2012, 11:18 AM
is it just me or does it appear that Ryan and Duke play better when he is coming off the bench? I know Mason is in a slump right now; but I think it's better for Ryan to come off the bench as opposed to starting. He just seems to play better that way.

And while there are many extenuating circumstances for Duke's play against VT at home yesterday, I'm still very nervous about the team playing against UNC at home next weekend. For whatever reason, Duke plays better way from CIS; and it took an excellent shooting night and some lucky breaks for Duke to beat UNC in Chapel Hill. Duke 's going to have to play better next week than what they did against VT to win next week (and I think they will). That being said, I am proud of the way the team gutted this victory out against VT.

BlueDGal
02-26-2012, 11:27 AM
Andre just didn't seem to have his head in the game yesterday. He might have been spent from that great performance in Fla., had a fight with his girl friend, or perhaps hasn't studied for an upcoming test. At one point after committing a turnover he assumed K was removing him from the court and when he realized he was not being taken out, he made a gesture to his teammates on the bench that suggested he should be for his mistakes. He was removed at the next stoppage of play.
Remember he has been through a lot at Duke, coming early and experiencing an awful tragedy in his life while adjusting to college as an elite, high profile athlete at an elite academic institution.
I hate to read threads asking where his game was yesterday. He is a terrific young man, IMO and I for one am glad he is at Duke. There have been a couple of games this year we lose without Andre's play.

This. As with Mason, these players are not robots but human beings with lots going on in their lives. Who knows what is in their head when they take the court. There is a lot of empathy in this post.

Kedsy
02-26-2012, 11:57 AM
is it just me or does it appear that Ryan and Duke play better when he is coming off the bench?

Ryan Kelly in 17 starts: 25.5 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg, Duke record= 15-2

Ryan Kelly in 12 games off the bench: 25.9 mpg, 12.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, Duke record= 10-2

So, he seems to score a bit more coming off the bench. But considering the Ohio State game (started, 15 mins, 0 pts, 3 rebs) skewed the averages a bit, I'd say Ryan and Duke do about the same, whether he starts or comes off the bench.

MCFinARL
02-26-2012, 01:55 PM
This. As with Mason, these players are not robots but human beings with lots going on in their lives. Who knows what is in their head when they take the court. There is a lot of empathy in this post.

I was particularly irritated when one of the commentators said during yesterday's game, "Coach K isn't going to be happy with Dawkins' effort on that loose ball." Granted, Andre didn't get the loose ball--but he scrambled for it and dove after it. The meme that Dawkins sometimes doesn't care or doesn't try strikes me as fundamentally off, especially this year, when he seems to be trying hard and very involved, and when he remains very attentive to what's happening on the court even when mistakes, or the strong play of others, put him on the bench. In the case of this loose ball, his reaction time perhaps wasn't quick enough to let him get to the ball before the Tech player, which could be a result of being tired from travel, or being stressed about other things, or even thinking a little too much about how hard he has to fight for minutes. For whatever reason he did not have his best game yesterday, and he saw less playing time as a result, but to say that his "effort" is lacking just seems wrong. And his contributions when he is "on" are so valuable that, in my mind, they more than make up for the off games.

RockyMtDevil
02-26-2012, 03:33 PM
I've read a lot of this thread and the themes range from Mason's slump, Andre's inconsistency, Kelly's defensive issues, our lack of low post scoring, etc... I've decided that for me and my house, I will praise this team. I've been the most vehement critic and after rewatching the game yesterday, I for one am going to stop. This team is what they are, 25-4 against the toughest schedule in the country, being led by an ever-maturing freshman that has the tenacity of a pit bull and a cast of characters who have an incredible will to win. And, better yet, we have the greatest coach OF ALL TIME. Seriously, this happens once in a lifetime that we get to be fans in a time when Duke basketball is experiencing something that may not happen for another 300 years. My dad's generation had Wooden, and we have K.

So, yes they scare the crap out of me, and yes I wish they would win every game by 40 so I could grow some hair back, but until then, keep at it boys, we're proud as heck to call you our team...

MChambers
02-26-2012, 03:40 PM
I was particularly irritated when one of the commentators said during yesterday's game, "Coach K isn't going to be happy with Dawkins' effort on that loose ball." Granted, Andre didn't get the loose ball--but he scrambled for it and dove after it. The meme that Dawkins sometimes doesn't care or doesn't try strikes me as fundamentally off, especially this year, when he seems to be trying hard and very involved, and when he remains very attentive to what's happening on the court even when mistakes, or the strong play of others, put him on the bench. In the case of this loose ball, his reaction time perhaps wasn't quick enough to let him get to the ball before the Tech player, which could be a result of being tired from travel, or being stressed about other things, or even thinking a little too much about how hard he has to fight for minutes. For whatever reason he did not have his best game yesterday, and he saw less playing time as a result, but to say that his "effort" is lacking just seems wrong. And his contributions when he is "on" are so valuable that, in my mind, they more than make up for the off games.
I saw a loose ball off of a rebound. Andre was closer to it than the VT player, but if he grabbed it the VT player almost certainly would have collided with him. Rather than grab the ball, Andre tipped it with one hand, avoiding a collision, but the ball went to another VT player. Hard to know what Andre was thinking, but it was a split second decision.

I don't disagree with your point that it's not necessarily about effort. And I'm sure Andre cares deeply about playing well and winning. But I am sure that Tyler Thornton would have gotten that ball.

HokieEngineer
02-26-2012, 04:39 PM
I also commend a tired Duke team pulling out the win, but why does K allow the opposition to take the last shot in regulation to win? Just my opinion but I beleive Duke is extremly lucky to have this W. VT had something like 20 seconds in regulation to bring the ball up and execute a set play getting two shots at the basket.

I would've fouled with 15 to 20 seconds, put them on the FT line, and had possesion of the ball either down by 1 or 2 placing faith in the hands of AR/Seth/etc (UNC can attest)

Box Score - VT shot %43.8 from the line. Consider the pressure on a visiting player with FT's @ the end of a close game, at CIS, the beloved Cameron Crazies, and a national TV audience.

Enough ranting, I'm still smiling about AR's last second shot in Chapel Hill. Go Duke!!!

We've been in a number of last shot situations the past two seasons. I can only remember 3 working (FSU in last year's ACC tournament, BC, and GT this year). I'd take my chances from the free throw line.

Of course, even if we took the lead, I'm sure that Rivers would have gotten a foul call.

dukepsy1963
02-26-2012, 06:11 PM
I was at the game and it scary. BUT, let me say that the "sixth man" stood tall today. The place was rocking toward the end of regulation; and unbelievable vocal support during the overtime. Wonderful experience.

HokieEngineer
02-26-2012, 06:50 PM
I was at the game and it scary. BUT, let me say that the "sixth man" stood tall today. The place was rocking toward the end of regulation; and unbelievable vocal support during the overtime. Wonderful experience.

If Green fouled Rivers at the end of regulation, then Thorton fouled Green--there was the same amount of contact.

MCFinARL
02-26-2012, 07:30 PM
I saw a loose ball off of a rebound. Andre was closer to it than the VT player, but if he grabbed it the VT player almost certainly would have collided with him. Rather than grab the ball, Andre tipped it with one hand, avoiding a collision, but the ball went to another VT player. Hard to know what Andre was thinking, but it was a split second decision.

I don't disagree with your point that it's not necessarily about effort. And I'm sure Andre cares deeply about playing well and winning. But I am sure that Tyler Thornton would have gotten that ball.

Maybe--though he might have fouled while doing so (although, to be fair, yesterday he was playing as well as I remember seeing him play, and he probably would have gotten it). As for your observation, you may be right--I focused more on what Andre did after the ball went toward the VT player (when he did go after it, but too late) than on the initial contact--and I admit to not being the most skilled observer of in-game action, because I get tense and because I don't rewind to review what happened. I guess my main gripe with the commentator was interpreting the missed opportunity as "lack of effort."

dyedwab
02-26-2012, 07:32 PM
If Green fouled Rivers at the end of regulation, then Thorton fouled Green--there was the same amount of contact.

Dude, I think you will get less than no sympathy coming to any Duke board, particularly this one, with a "Duke gets all the calls" riff.

sagegrouse
02-26-2012, 08:38 PM
We've been in a number of last shot situations the past two seasons. I can only remember 3 working (FSU in last year's ACC tournament, BC, and GT this year). I'd take my chances from the free throw line.

Of course, even if we took the lead, I'm sure that Rivers would have gotten a foul call.

I welcome your comments. I thought VT showed a lot of spunk yesterday -- I was worried sick over this game -- before, during and after. With some more depth and experience and some strength gains in the players, VT is a strong contender in the ACC. I assume Seth has the support of the AD and fans.

also, there is the potential to make some noise in the tournament.

sage

gep
02-26-2012, 08:56 PM
Just wanted to give some props to Mason for showing up big time after Ryan fouled out. He was having a HORRIBLE game, but made some huge plays down the stretch for us. Wouldn't have made it to OT without him, IMO.


It was amazing to see the contrast. Mason looked like he was playing in slow motion until the very end, when he stepped up big time.

During the beginning of the game when he first went in, and for the next 35 minutes or so, until Ryan fouled out, it appeared to me that Mason was "hobbled" by something. My first reaction was that he must be either getting over a cold or he was somewhat "sick". He seemed to be in slow motion and no energy. Then after Ryan fouled out (and Josh already gone for the game), Mason seemed to just "pick it up"... maybe also since he knew the game was nearing its end. To me, if he really was "under the weather", he showed a lot of guts, especially in overtime. I don't have a clue if health was an issue at all, or there's something else "at play" here... but health would make sense to me from what I saw :confused: (of course, I missed that pick/taunt on Tyler... so take this as my 1-1/2 cents)

Greg_Newton
02-26-2012, 09:10 PM
If Green fouled Rivers at the end of regulation, then Thorton fouled Green--there was the same amount of contact.

Uhhh... go back and watch the final play in slow-mo. That's the definition of perfect defense, and probably the best defensive possession we've seen by a player all year. No way do you get to vaguely group that in with some other play and say there was "contact".

roywhite
02-26-2012, 10:01 PM
Uhhh... go back and watch the final play in slow-mo. That's the definition of perfect defense, and probably the best defensive possession we've seen by a player all year. No way do you get to vaguely group that in with some other play and say there was "contact".

Yep, Tyler Thornton's defense on that play was superb, would have brought a smile to Gary "The Glove" Payton.

Kfanarmy
02-26-2012, 11:13 PM
...Of course there is a ton of "what if" scenarios - but my preference is to have possesion down by 1 versus defending to extend the game to OT with an exhausted Duke team. your preference would likely have you losing between 70 and 80 percent of the time...the odds of scoring in any way (3ptrs, 2ptrs, and FTs) are less than the 100% reality of being behind. you're essentially saying you would rather have been in VTs position at the start of the last regular time posession only with Duke having one more point...you wouldn't have made it to the OT.

snowdenscold
02-27-2012, 01:36 AM
Of course there is a ton of "what if" scenarios - but my preference is to have possesion down by 1 versus defending to extend the game to OT with an exhausted Duke team.

Trying to see if I understand where you're going with this...
Are you arguing that Duke, down 1-2 points, would have around a 40% chance of winning it on the last possession, but by playing D in a tied game, they'd only have a 30% chance of winning (60% chance VT misses * 50/50 shot in overtime) ?

If so, I don't think I agree, since there would be a bunch of other factors involved - enough to negate that 10% difference (assuming that's a fair estimation in the first place).


And to continue on with the simplistic calculations - let's say due to end-game tightening up each team's FG % drops to 33% instead of ~40. Now you're better off defending anyway.

HokieEngineer
02-27-2012, 08:16 AM
Yep, Tyler Thornton's defense on that play was superb, would have brought a smile to Gary "The Glove" Payton.

I agree that Thornton's defense was good on that play (as well as on the last play of regulation), and I didn't expect to get a foul call. However, I've yet to see the foul on the the Rivers drive. (If Thornton can use his hand to feel Green, why can't Green use his hand to feel Rivers?) Suppose that Thornton had gotten called for a foul on that play. What would your reaction have been?

oldnavy
02-27-2012, 11:19 AM
I agree that Thornton's defense was good on that play (as well as on the last play of regulation), and I didn't expect to get a foul call. However, I've yet to see the foul on the the Rivers drive. (If Thornton can use his hand to feel Green, why can't Green use his hand to feel Rivers?) Suppose that Thornton had gotten called for a foul on that play. What would your reaction have been?

Although I have no idea which play or plays you are talking about (I have already forgotten!) I feel your pain... the inconsistency of the refs is one of the three most frustrating things about watching basketball IMO. The other two are the inept announcers and the gosh aweful production (camera shots of crowds and close up of players and coaches during game action) of the game.

Earlier in the game, Mason went up under the basket and got raked across the arms. The ball went out of bounds, no call although I believe Duke retained possession. A few plays later Mason or Miles (forgotten again) were standing still arms straight up and a Hokie player went up. Minimal contact if any at all, did not alter the shot or cause the VT player to lose possession. Tweet! Foul on Duke! Drives me nuts.... I think the problem is that the refs sometime jump the whistle and expect a foul before the play develops. At other times I think that they swallow the whistle for reasons unknown...

Out of the moment, I understand that calling a game must be extremely difficult, and I suspect that over time the calls balance out. In the moment, I am sure that Duke is getting hosed each and every game!

So, welcome to the club...

jv001
02-27-2012, 12:15 PM
Although I have no idea which play or plays you are talking about (I have already forgotten!) I feel your pain... the inconsistency of the refs is one of the three most frustrating things about watching basketball IMO. The other two are the inept announcers and the gosh aweful production (camera shots of crowds and close up of players and coaches during game action) of the game.

Earlier in the game, Mason went up under the basket and got raked across the arms. The ball went out of bounds, no call although I believe Duke retained possession. A few plays later Mason or Miles (forgotten again) were standing still arms straight up and a Hokie player went up. Minimal contact if any at all, did not alter the shot or cause the VT player to lose possession. Tweet! Foul on Duke! Drives me nuts.... I think the problem is that the refs sometime jump the whistle and expect a foul before the play develops. At other times I think that they swallow the whistle for reasons unknown...

Out of the moment, I understand that calling a game must be extremely difficult, and I suspect that over time the calls balance out. In the moment, I am sure that Duke is getting hosed each and every game!

So, welcome to the club...

Well put. I stopped complaining a long time ago about the officials. Especially on boards. Do I yell at the tv and the refs, you betcha. After the game you're not going to hear me say the refs cost us a game. I understand the VT fan's displeasure but he/she will one day learn that most of the time refs do a decent job and are not favoring one team or another. Do they influenced by game day crowds, maybe. Are some refs "shoe boats", probably. But they don't favor one team or another. At least not since Lenny Wirtz(unc homer) retired, lol GoDuke!

UrinalCake
02-27-2012, 12:21 PM
Trying to see if I understand where you're going with this...
Are you arguing that Duke, down 1-2 points, would have around a 40% chance of winning it on the last possession, but by playing D in a tied game, they'd only have a 30% chance of winning (60% chance VT misses * 50/50 shot in overtime) ?

There's also a psychological component. If you foul on purpose and they end up winning the game, then it's really demoralizing because you basically gave the game to them. You're also telling your team that you don't trust their defense. I don't think I've ever seen a team intentionally concede the lead like that, in any sport. The closest I can think of is in the superbowl when the Pats allowed the Giants to walk into the endzone, but that was a little different - the chances of them scoring anyways were like 95%.

I also agree that shooting percentages go way down in those end of game scenarios. So the best play is to defend and force overtime.

dyedwab
02-27-2012, 02:15 PM
Earlier in the game, Mason went up under the basket and got raked across the arms. The ball went out of bounds, no call although I believe Duke retained possession. A few plays later Mason or Miles (forgotten again) were standing still arms straight up and a Hokie player went up. Minimal contact if any at all, did not alter the shot or cause the VT player to lose possession. Tweet! Foul on Duke! Drives me nuts.... I think the problem is that the refs sometime jump the whistle and expect a foul before the play develops. At other times I think that they swallow the whistle for reasons unknown...

Out of the moment, I understand that calling a game must be extremely difficult, and I suspect that over time the calls balance out. In the moment, I am sure that Duke is getting hosed each and every game!

So, welcome to the club...

Agree wholeheartedly with this post. Though, I would expand on what I said earlier. The "Duke gets all the calls" riff is so commonplace in officiating discussion, even at the level of people calling the games on TV, that I think some expect a comment about it to generate little to know reaction from the Duke fan base.

On the last play in question, I though TT played great defense against Green, and I would have been shocked had a foul be called, but because the officials hadn't been calling fouls like that all game. The fouls that tended to be called on Austin's defender occurred a) closer to the basket, and b) were usually by his primary defender who he beat, or a help defender coming over because he beat his guy. Green didn't beat TT on that play