Thread Nitpicking Deficiencies In Duke's Best Player And Leading Scorer

[UrinalCake]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time :). But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

[Kedsy]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time :). But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

Yes, many people have noticed it. His right elbow sticks out too far, as well.

I strongly doubt the coaching staff would feel comfortable messing with it, though.

[JNort]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time :). But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

If it is working do not worry about it. This has been discussed before btw. He shoots really strange but it suits him which is more important than shooting correctly.

[hurleyfor3]

However he's shooting it, it needs not to change.

[CDu]

The key to shooting form is the ability to replicate a good result as much as possible. It doesn't matter what the form is - if it results in a high percentage of makes, it's good form. Rivers' form is far from textbook, and it's not the way you'd teach a young player to shoot (mainly because it's harder to replicate good results that way). But he's made it work for him. No reason to change it now.

[OldPhiKap]

Not sure where to ask this, but -- I assume there's no issue with the ankle swelling, etc. after last night's game?

[jjasper0729]

I've thought all season that he looks like Reggie Miller shooting the ball and not many people can argue with Reggie's results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the general rule, although one could argue that once they fixed Felton's "chicken wing" he was much more effective afterward

[phaedrus]

I've thought all season that he looks like Reggie Miller shooting the ball and not many people can argue with Reggie's results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the general rule, although one could argue that once they fixed Felton's "chicken wing" he was much more effective afterward

Larry Bird also unapologetically shot the ball with two hands.

[Kedsy]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the general rule, although one could argue that once they fixed Felton's "chicken wing" he was much more effective afterward

Well, except Felton still can't shoot. This year he's shooting 37.6% from the floor, including an anemic 24.8% from 3-point range, and is in danger of losing his job in Portland.

[dukelifer]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time :). But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

I think it keeps him from being a great stand still shooter- But it works for him when it is off the dribble. As some mentioned- Reggie Miller had a funny looking shot but it worked for him. He perfected it by shooting lots of shots. Now Andre's form is textbook- as beautiful as it gets IMO.

[wacobluedevil]

Larry Bird also unapologetically shot the ball with two hands.

Mark Alarie also shot with two hands.

[UrinalCake]

I think it keeps him from being a great stand still shooter- But it works for him when it is off the dribble.

That's funny because I had the exact opposite thought. I think his form lends itself to a set, spot-up shot as his release is kind of slow and he falls backwards as he shoots. I don't see him take too many jump shots off the dribble. I think having a more conventional release point would allow him to shoot over defenders a little better and also get the shot off faster. I don't really buy the argument of it's just how he does it and it's working so don't mess with it. I mean he probably developed this form at a really young age and who's to say he couldn't improve his shot by making some changes? Obviously you wouldn't want to mess with it during the season. Didn't Demarcus Nelson overhaul his shooting form during the summer before his junior year? Maybe not the best example but my point is that it's never too late to make a change.

[strawbs]

DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING! if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it.
I live in Iowa, and went to the University of Northern Iowa. I don't know if any of you have any idea of who Brooks Mckowen is, but he is the perfect example of why not to mess with your shot. In high school he was an absolute scoring machine. He averaged 35.8 ppg as a senior scoring 1002 pts on the season (a state record). He finished his career with 2831 points (also a state record). His shot was ugly but it went in more often then not.
He went to UNI and was the starting point guard for 4 years starting 117 of 127 games in his career. The coaches had him change his shot and he never really amounted to anything. To be fair he did run the point and and was never the number 1 option on the offense while he was at UNI, but his shooting percentages were terrible.
freshman 37.1 fg 33.6 3pt
sophomore 35.4 fg 30.2 3pt
junior 34.8 fg 26.9 3pt
senior 40.7 fg 31.6 3pt
for his career he shot 37.6 on fg's and 30.8 on 3pt's
Now by no means am I comparing Mckowen to Rivers, but Mckowen was one of the best players in the history of high school basketball, he changed his shot and he was never the same player. I don't think trying to tinker with his form would hurt Rivers as much as someone like Mckowen because Rivers is still an elite player at getting to the rim, but there is no reason for Rivers to change his shot. He's shooting it at 40% from 3 on the year. Like I said before don't change something that isn't broken.

[Newton_14]

That's funny because I had the exact opposite thought. I think his form lends itself to a set, spot-up shot as his release is kind of slow and he falls backwards as he shoots. I don't see him take too many jump shots off the dribble. I think having a more conventional release point would allow him to shoot over defenders a little better and also get the shot off faster. I don't really buy the argument of it's just how he does it and it's working so don't mess with it. I mean he probably developed this form at a really young age and who's to say he couldn't improve his shot by making some changes? Obviously you wouldn't want to mess with it during the season. Didn't Demarcus Nelson overhaul his shooting form during the summer before his junior year? Maybe not the best example but my point is that it's never too late to make a change.

Not trying to be argumentative at all, so please do not take it that way, but he shoots almost all of his 3's off the dribble in my view. He is much better off the dribble than he is as a spot up shooter. When he catches and shoots from a standstill the result is usually bad and he looks uncomfortable to me. He is almost the exact opposite of Andre in that regard. Austin makes many more 3's (including the beautiful dagger against UNC) off the dribble than he does trying to catch and shoot.

In my view, his form is likely due to forcing himself to shoot jumpshots at an early age before his body was strong enough to do it correctly. To compensate for the lack of strength, he had to use the chicken wing combined with a powerful flick of the right wrist to generate enough power to get the ball to the basket. By the time he was strong enough to shoot a jumpshot normally, the form was ingrained and there was just no going back. That's my suspicion anyway.

I don't view his shot as a two handed shot. The right hand is still the last hand on the ball at the release point, it's just that the left hand stays on the ball a nano-second longer than a normal shooter. That is due to needing the left hand to hold on longer for balance due to the chicken wing. If the right elbow was underneath the ball as it should be, the left hand could leave the ball sooner without him losing control of the ball. With his form, if the left hand left sooner there is no way he could keep the ball balance in his right hand.

He still manages to get decent to good rotation on the ball as evidenced by shots that are slightly short still settling into the hoop or kicking off the backboard and in off the bounce. Like others have noted, he shoots a high percentage as is, so it would be dangerous to try to change it. Sort of like Jim Furyk's golf swing. Unconventional but successful and repeatable.

All that said it appears that Duke's staff chooses not to try to change the shooting form with their kids. It seems that way anyway. They left Scheyer's form alone as a recent example. MP3 as another example, has his offhand literally on the very top of the ball. Even moreso than Scheyer did. I would kill to spend 30 minutes with him to try to get him to move that off hand to the proper place, and see if he could shoot it like that, but that is just me. He shoots it the exact same way in warmups every game, so I have to believe that K and Staff's philosophy is to leave the form alone. K is a trillion times more knowledgeable than I, so I would imagine in his infinite wisdom and studies, he determined long ago it best to not attempt to change the shooting form of a college player. I would guess his studies showed it is too late by that age and more harm would come than good if he tried to change them?

[ricks68]

In my view, his form is likely due to forcing himself to shoot jumpshots at an early age before his body was strong enough to do it correctly. To compensate for the lack of strength, he had to use the chicken wing combined with a powerful flick of the right wrist to generate enough power to get the ball to the basket. By the time he was strong enough to shoot a jumpshot normally, the form was ingrained and there was just no going back. That's my suspicion anyway.

That has always been my take, also. The interesting thing I've noticed, however, is that he ends up with an increase in distance from the outstretched arms of taller defenders when he releases the ball due to him falling backwards, resulting in a much more difficult shot to block.

ricks

[UrinalCake]

Not trying to be argumentative at all, so please do not take it that way, but he shoots almost all of his 3's off the dribble in my view. He is much better off the dribble than he is as a spot up shooter.

I think we just have different interpretations of what "off the dribble" means. I think of shooting off the dribble as a player driving towards the basket, stopping and pulling up for a jump shot. Most of Austin's shots IMO come from him having the ball in isolation, dribbling the ball while remaining stationary and surveying the defense, then choosing to shoot. So it's a shot off the dribble in the sense that he is dribbling the ball, but the mechanics of the shot are more like a set shot. He's not moving with the ball or curling around a screen when he shoots.

Regardless, I like your description of his mechanics and the rationale behind it. It seems like having to transfer the ball over over to his right hand during the shot would make his shot less reliable, though as everyone else has stated he's shooting 40% from three so it's clearly working. The other quibble I have is his release point, though in looking at the attached image I guess he does hold the ball pretty high. Just for fun I also attached an image of JJ's release for comparison.

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[greybeard]

Not trying to be argumentative at all, so please do not take it that way, but he shoots almost all of his 3's off the dribble in my view. He is much better off the dribble than he is as a spot up shooter. When he catches and shoots from a standstill the result is usually bad and he looks uncomfortable to me. He is almost the exact opposite of Andre in that regard. Austin makes many more 3's (including the beautiful dagger against UNC) off the dribble than he does trying to catch and shoot.

Not so. Austin's long three are off a standstill and deadly. Even "the shot" in UNC game was practical equivolent of stanstill, dribbling and moving feet but going nowhere, just freeezing Zeller


In my view, his form is likely due to forcing himself to shoot jumpshots at an early age before his body was strong enough to do it correctly. To compensate for the lack of strength, he had to use the chicken wing combined with a powerful flick of the right wrist to generate enough power to get the ball to the basket. By the time he was strong enough to shoot a jumpshot normally, the form was ingrained and there was just no going back. That's my suspicion anyway.

Possible, but unlikely. Holding the ball with left hand on side, thumb slightly behind, extending and pronating arm through the shot is a real effective way of shooting long, aka Bill Bradley. That way of holding the ball permits real softness in hands and chest, and a soft shot with real good accuracy--shooters of old who used two hand set shots (a much different shot than Rivers, were pretty darn accurate.)

Rivers' style draws defender closer which makes him easier to beat And Rivers really elevates off a standstill shot, bringing the ball slightly above forehead level, so in reality not an easy shot to block. Also holding the ball in that manner and starting relatively low, chest level, makes first step ball extension, push it and long stride that much quicker.


I don't view his shot as a two handed shot. The right hand is still the last hand on the ball at the release point, it's just that the left hand stays on the ball a nano-second longer than a normal shooter. That is due to needing the left hand to hold on longer for balance due to the chicken wing. If the right elbow was underneath the ball as it should be, the left hand could leave the ball sooner without him losing control of the ball. With his form, if the left hand left sooner there is no way he could keep the ball balance in his right hand.

I agree that not a traditional two hand shot and that the major force comes through e exension of t ight arm and protion of the right hand which is much farther behind th ball than the left. However, the left arm extends and the hand releases also, which helps with direction, and provides greater range. I don't think holding the ball that way and utilizing the left is made necessary by the flying elbow, but rather might cause it. The guiding hand helping in this fasion produces a soft shot high arching sot and helps with distance control from range. The shot can be taken with hands the same place and functioning the same with the elbows dropping straight down.

In the begining, everyone has their own style, some appear more effective and others try to figure out how they ca make that configuration work, eying everything about the shooter[s] he wants to emulate. It becomes a popular way of shooting. The experts take over and it becomes doctrine--that is,it is "taugt as the best way to shoot and everyone shall shoot that way.

In golf, pro golfers historically have all reached the same position immediately before and through impact and then follow through. How they got there used to be another story. Nowadays, they all look the same. It's just the way norms, best practices, evolve into doctrine, that is, THE way it should be done. It produces results among the greatest number of shooters but is rather boring.

By the way, Dre has a pretty unusual way of shooting a three ball--he stands at the basket with his right side much closer to the basket than his left, with his right leg ending up parellel or in front of his left, and his body facing left. Curry comjes pretty close to that style also. anding sideways or nearly so to the rim has its advantages. It lines the shoulders on a direct line to the basket, with next to no torque in delivering theshot. Also there is something about how that stance puts a lot of body and momentum along that line, much more than a face-up would.

He still manages to get decent to good rotation on the ball as evidenced by shots that are slightly short still settling into the hoop or kicking off the backboard and in off the bounce. Like others have noted, he shoots a high percentage as is, so it would be dangerous to try to change it. Sort of like Jim Furyk's golf swing. Unconventional but successful and repeatable.


All that said it appears that Duke's staff chooses not to try to change the shooting form with their kids. It seems that way anyway. They left Scheyer's form alone as a recent example. MP3 as another example, has his offhand literally on the very top of the ball. Even moreso than Scheyer did. I would kill to spend 30 minutes with him to try to get him to move that off hand to the proper place, and see if he could shoot it like that, but that is just me. He shoots it the exact same way in warmups every game, so I have to believe that K and Staff's philosophy is to leave the form alone. K is a trillion times more knowledgeable than I, so I would imagine in his infinite wisdom and studies, he determined long ago it best to not attempt to change the shooting form of a college player. I would guess his studies showed it is too late by that age and more harm would come than good if he tried to change them?

I agree, bur Rivers' shooting style might be a real impediment to a mid-rane game, whih we never see frm him, in contras to ost all big time gards.

[Newton_14]

I think we just have different interpretations of what "off the dribble" means. I think of shooting off the dribble as a player driving towards the basket, stopping and pulling up for a jump shot. Most of Austin's shots IMO come from him having the ball in isolation, dribbling the ball while remaining stationary and surveying the defense, then choosing to shoot. So it's a shot off the dribble in the sense that he is dribbling the ball, but the mechanics of the shot are more like a set shot. He's not moving with the ball or curling around a screen when he shoots.

Regardless, I like your description of his mechanics and the rationale behind it. It seems like having to transfer the ball over over to his right hand during the shot would make his shot less reliable, though as everyone else has stated he's shooting 40% from three so it's clearly working. The other quibble I have is his release point, though in looking at the attached image I guess he does hold the ball pretty high. Just for fun I also attached an image of JJ's release for comparison.

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Ah, I see what you mean now. So, yes, we agree. Perhaps it's better to say he isn't a good "catch and shoot guy". He is stationary but dribbling on most of his 3's. I refer to that as "off the dribble", but you and Greybeard refer to it as a stationary set shot.

Peace!

[gwlaw99]

This is a really bad habit causing him to get his shot blocked more than necessary. I wonder why the coaching staff hasn't worked with him on this issue.

[dukelifer]

Ah, I see what you mean now. So, yes, we agree. Perhaps it's better to say he isn't a good "catch and shoot guy". He is stationary but dribbling on most of his 3's. I refer to that as "off the dribble", but you and Greybeard refer to it as a stationary set shot.

Peace!

I agree. When I said off the dribble, I meant to distinguish from catch and shoot. Austin does get his feet set and is stationary.

[mkline09]

Maybe he is like Derek Zoolander and can't go left?

Or perhaps and this is far more probable, it is just a skill that he needs to work on. He is only a freshman and of course all players have a dominant hand they want to get to if they can. Austin is so good off the bounce he generally can get to his right. The problem is with shot blockers. I think over time he will learn and make the adjustments. I'm not too terribly worried about it. He finishes more times than not.

[Lord Ash]

He finishes with the left far more now than he did. Still a work in progress.

[roywhite]

He finishes with the left far more now than he did. Still a work in progress.

Indeed; and work is a key word here. I've seen enough of Austin to realize that he really works hard on his game.
Austin has made major improvement in his all-around game since coming to Duke last summer.
If there are areas that need further development, like finishing with the left hand, I have no doubt he will go after it.

[airowe]

Can we combine all of these threads into one? Austin Rivers has to be the most maligned leading scorer for Duke Basketball by his own fans in recent memory.

[Chris Randolph]

His whole life he could fly through the lane and finish with his dominant hand without much of a contest because he was just that much better than everyone else. Hard to break a life long habit in 6 months.

Just think it is a time and confidence issue. With more work he will develop the skill and confidence to finish with his left in a game. He seems to be doing pretty well without the skill now

[OldPhiKap]

I bet he can't cook an omelette to save his life.

A good one, I mean.

As far as what he does on the court, I assume Doc probably did more than roll a ball out in the driveway and tell Austin to learn it all himself. Kid's probably had an instructor and coach along the way who knew what he was doing. Maybe even more than one.

But I'm more concerned about the omelette, because I'm getting hungry and whatnot.

[ncexnyc]

He finishes with the left far more now than he did. Still a work in progress.

Hmmm, can't say I recall any times he's actually finished with his left hand. He does beat his man off the dribble to the left more than we were led to believe, but I always see him finish with the right, which means he's got the ball in an awkward almost underhand position and he has to twist his body in a strange fashion. All of this means the rim as well as his body are no longer shielding the ball from either the defender he's just beaten or those coming from his right.

Having said all of this, I'm not sure now is the time to be monkeying with a technique he is used to doing over and over again. We'd all go ballistic if in a one point game he snapped some defenders ankle's, got to the rim and then blew the lay-up because he was thinking about how he should put up the shot.;)

[OldPhiKap]

When will the Plumlees learn to finish the Thunder Dumb?

[ncexnyc]

When will the Plumlees learn to finish the Thunder Dumb?

They really miss on purpose.:D It's an intimidation factor, no defender would dare stick their hand anywhere near the rim, for fear of getting it ripped off.;)

[Kedsy]

He does beat his man off the dribble to the left more than we were led to believe, but I always see him finish with the right, which means he's got the ball in an awkward almost underhand position and he has to twist his body in a strange fashion. All of this means the rim as well as his body are no longer shielding the ball from either the defender he's just beaten or those coming from his right.

This is all true, but it's possible he finishes more with his right because he's already twisted his body into an awkward, almost underhanded position. Once he slithers past the helping big men, I've noticed he goes a little deep when he's on the left side. Whether he does that so he can use his right hand or whether he uses his right hand because of where he's located, I don't know.

[UrinalCake]

I agree, bur Rivers' shooting style might be a real impediment to a mid-range game, which we never see from him, in contras to most all big time guards.

Is it fair to nitpick that his form might also be an impediment to his free throw shooting?

[Papa John]

I bet he can't cook an omelette to save his life.

A good one, I mean.

Can we please stop maligning Austin's culinary shortcomings... It's not easy to cook a good omelette. There are a lot of factors involved—the right pan, the right amount of fat, the proper heat on the fat, the correct roll and flip wrist motion... And, of course, fresh eggs...

[OldPhiKap]

Can we please stop maligning Austin's culinary shortcomings... It's not easy to cook a good omelette. There are a lot of factors involved—the right pan, the right amount of fat, the proper heat on the fat, the correct roll and flip wrist motion... And, of course, fresh eggs...

If you limit yourself to cheddar, you're missing out. Gruyere, feta, maybe even a cream cheese with dill.

But I can tell that Austin doesn't get it. Anyone who kicks his leg out on a jump shot like that must not get the nuances.

Hard to believe that the son of an NBA coach who plays for K, and is the first-freshman-to-lead-us-in-scoring since Johnny Dawkins, is so fundamentally flawed.

He wouldn't even make sous-chef or saucier at a two-star. Seriously.



(But damn, he's gonna be able to buy a few for the home kitchen!)

[rthomas]

I've watched a lot of Duke basketball and I have to say that may be the best Duke guard that I've ever seen drive to the basket. OK There is Jwill. But I think they are 1-2.

[Indoor66]

I've watched a lot of Duke basketball and I have to say that may be the best Duke guard that I've ever seen drive to the basket. OK There is Jwill. But I think they are 1-2.

Kyrie Irving = #1

[CajunDevil]

I've watched a lot of Duke basketball and I have to say that may be the best Duke guard that I've ever seen drive to the basket. OK There is Jwill. But I think they are 1-2.


I agree... but I think Austin is much better at this stage of his career in taking it to the hoop than was JWill. In fact, I think Austin is better at breaking his defender down now than JWill was his Jr. year. Austin's first step is better and his handle is a bit better. JWill was stronger and a more powerful finisher.

[jv001]

Kyrie Irving = #1

Agree. Everyone else in a different class. Kyrie finished with both hands and finished strong. Was even a very good free throw shooter. GoDuke!

[CajunDevil]

Agree. Everyone else in a different class. Kyrie finished with both hands and finished strong. Was even a very good free throw shooter. GoDuke!

Different class? No way... Austin's first step is quicker than Kyrie's. Kyrie is better at changing pace, but I would put Kyrie, Austin and JWill in same league with Austin and Kyrie at the top.

[jv001]

Different class? No way... Austin's first step is quicker than Kyrie's. Kyrie is better at changing pace, but I would put Kyrie, Austin and JWill in same league with Austin and Kyrie at the top.

Yeh you're probably correct. Kyrie, Austin and J-Will are in the same class. Might want to throw Bobby Hurley in there as well. But I think Kyrie was the best even if by the smallest of margins. GoDuke!

[CajunDevil]

Yeh you're probably correct. Kyrie, Austin and J-Will are in the same class. Might want to throw Bobby Hurley in there as well. But I think Kyrie was the best even if by the smallest of margins. GoDuke!

How did we miss Hurley? He's in the discussion too! I just didn't get to see Kyrie play enough in college to make a determination as to whether he's better than the others. He's amazing though...

[Greg_Newton]

I don't know if I'd even put Kyrie ahead of him. Kyrie was a better finisher by far, but man, is Austin explosive. I don't know if we've ever had anyone attack the rim with the speed and explosion he does... whereas Kyrie was incredible at reading defenders and putting his body and the ball in advantageous places, Austin simiply moves so quickly that defenders aren't even really sure how to react. I seriously think his sharp little moves around the rim might be hard for defenders to follow visually at times.

[jv001]

The biggest differences in Kyrie and Austin; Kyrie's ability to use his left hand as well as his righthand, he was stronger and finished better, he had better court vision and was a better free throw shooter. I know that we didn't see that much of Kyrie but before his injury I hadn't seen many point guards do what he did. Austin may become that good but he has some work to do. GoDuke!

[mapei]

For me, Kyrie never really got to play at Duke. He had a great start but was injured early, was ineffective when he came back, and then left for the NBA. So while maybe he *could* have been the best driver to the basket for Duke, he never got much of a chance to prove it.

Austin is the best I've seen as a freshman at Duke.

[duke09hms]

He had a great start but was injured early, was ineffective when he came back, and then left for the NBA.

This is a gross mischaracterization. Just off the top of my head, the go-ahead bucket against Michigan in the 2nd round. As well as contributing 28 pts on 9-15 FGs and 3 asts 1 TO against Arizona.

[jv001]

For me, Kyrie never really got to play at Duke. He had a great start but was injured early, was ineffective when he came back, and then left for the NBA. So while maybe he *could* have been the best driver to the basket for Duke, he never got much of a chance to prove it.

Austin is the best I've seen as a freshman at Duke.

Well we'll just disagree as gentlemen and go from there. I feel Kyrie gave it all for Duke. He couldn't help getting injured. I wish all of our players on the bench rooted for their team mates like Kyrie did last year. I say look at how Kyrie is doing in the NBA(for a pretty bad team) and that pretty much proves how good a driver of the ball he is. GoDuke!

[roywhite]

The biggest differences in Kyrie and Austin; Kyrie's ability to use his left hand as well as his righthand, he was stronger and finished better, he had better court vision and was a better free throw shooter. I know that we didn't see that much of Kyrie but before his injury I hadn't seen many point guards do what he did. Austin may become that good but he has some work to do. GoDuke!

Kyrie is obviously a great talent, 1st draft choice overall and possibly ROY in the NBA, so comparisons for anyone are difficult.

Seems to me that Austin may actually be a little more explosive and stronger than Kyrie on his drives; Austin's jab steps, first step toward the hoop, and change of direction are special. Kyrie was better at finishing with a soft touch and his "amphibious" ways, plus as noted his free throws were money.

Apart from the comparison, I really, really like the way Austin wants the ball in key situations late and can make plays. He nearly always get a decent shot at the basket, goes to the line, or is able to set up a teammate for a good look.

[DukeGirl4ever]

I'll chime in here and say I think all mentioned are great.

For now, though, the difference I see with Kyrie and Austin is that I think Kyrie was a better finisher than Austin, and so that separates him a bit for me, and Kyrie could finish with both hands.
BUT, Austin is getting better with that and I love his progression.

To me it's not necessarily about speed or first step, it's about getting to the basket and having the ability to score while being pushed around. IMO, Kyrie is a little ahead of Austin right now, but that doesn't mean I don't love AR's ability.

[Indoor66]

The biggest differences in Kyrie and Austin; Kyrie's ability to use his left hand as well as his righthand, he was stronger and finished better, he had better court vision and was a better free throw shooter. I know that we didn't see that much of Kyrie but before his injury I hadn't seen many point guards do what he did. Austin may become that good but he has some work to do. GoDuke!

Kyrie was also a better passer than Austin. He found people when he was cut off. Better court vision, as you said.

[UrinalCake]

All three of these guys are/were amazing. Kyrie was crafty and just found a way to get the ball in the hole, weaving through defenders. He also had probably the best outside shot of the three, which you had to respect. And I think he was the best at distributing the ball while driving towards the hoop. Austin has a slightly quicker first step and also does a great job around the rim, but I think his decision making isn't quite as good. Actually I'd probably call it "instincts" rather than decision-making because of how naturally things came for Kyrie. Kyrie almost never got blocked because his awareness was just so good. And J Williams was just a freak of nature, he was as quick as Rivers but also built like a linebacker. He could decide to go straight to the hoop and dunk it and guys couldn't stop it. But I agree that he didn't come in quite as developed as the other two; in our memories we think mostly of him in his sophomore and junior years.

[Devilsfan]

Kyrie #1
JWill #2. (On the court)
Austin #3

Austin could move up if he chooses to return next year.

[UrinalCake]

Kyrie also had the good fortune of having Nolan and Kyle as teammates. Both provided leadership, and Nolan in particular served as a mentor and took all of the pressure off of him so he could step in and do what he does best. Austin doesn't have that luxury, he's having to balance whether to take control or share the ball, on a team without a natural leader.

[Wander]

I think Austin has the best first step of anyone, and thus perhaps the best potential. But he's got farther to go in making the layups after the first move, using his left hand, and deciding when to pass out compared to those other guys. To some degree that's, to quote the other thread, nitpicking our best player, but since we are comparing to a former #1 and #2 pick...

[Starter]

With all due respect to the new jacks -- because I love them both -- I vote for J. Will. He absolutely vaporized guys off the dribble right from the start. Kyrie was pretty close. I'd put Rivers third, but only by default.

[roywhite]

With all due respect to the new jacks -- because I love them both -- I vote for J. Will. He absolutely vaporized guys off the dribble right from the start. Kyrie was pretty close. I'd put Rivers third, but only by default.

Love them all, too, but to your point about J. Will -- no doubt he was a dynamic player, but as a freshman shot 42% from the field (and 35.4% from 3-pt), so I don't think he finished as well then as he did in his sophomore and junior years. What would Kyrie be doing if this were his sophomore year in college? Maybe we'll see how Austin does as a sophomore?

[Edouble]

Love them all, too, but to your point about J. Will -- no doubt he was a dynamic player, but as a freshman shot 42% from the field (and 35.4% from 3-pt), so I don't think he finished as well then as he did in his sophomore and junior years. What would Kyrie be doing if this were his sophomore year in college? Maybe we'll see how Austin does as a sophomore?

I think he's just talking about the ability to drive to the basket. I think Jason Williams is #1 at Duke with simply driving to the basket. At times it seemed like he could just score any time he wanted to.

I think Austin may have the quickest first step I have seen in a Duke guard. However, Jason Williams was ahead of Austin in two areas:

1) Leaping ability. We used to regularly call an out of bounds play that was designed for an alley oop to Jason. He would occasionally finish his drives with a dunk. I don't remember seeing Austin finish a drive with a dunk.

2) Strength. The guy was beefy enough to really take a hit.

[greybeard]

This kid Austin has stood up several times now and carried his team, literally on his shoulders, to a tight victory. He has taken a beating in just about every game he has played. He has the quickest feet going to the basket at speed and slivering through a crowd I have ever seen. Only thing comparable is Lionel Messi. Kyrie might be better, but not tougher, and certainly not as durable. Austin's quick feet, speed, slivering ability, and deceptive strength present a unique combination. He thrives for "the moment," delivers threes from amazing distance when it counts the most, gets to the basket and scores in amazing ways, and has learned how to give other guys an opportunity to do their thing, even at crunch time.and gets to the basket, scores and/or draws a foul amongst two, often three players.

Abstractly, Kyrie might have been better at Duke then Austin but we'll never know because he went down after 5 games and left. The only big game that Kyrie played in for Duke he shut down the player of the year in the ACC (too bad he was on the same team) and Duke lost. Austin has carried Duke to at least two huge victories, has grown tremendously as a player, and has the nerves and grit of a gun slinger. He's my pick between the two.

JWill, he had this ability to start hard towards the basket right, pull it back, catch, shoot and make the three or hesitate if the guy closed, and continue to beat him on the bounce. I think he carried it every time. He never was called for it, so perhaps I'm wrong. I think tons of guards beat their defenders only because of carries that are not called--at least one of Virginia Tech's guards among them. If that's truly an okay play (it seems reality says it is), you maybe have tto give it to JWill. But, Rivers is only a freshman, and I think he'll be around a while, maybe three, even four, seasons. Then we'll measure.

[JNort]

I think it has to be Kyrie and it is not even that close. He was the most well rounded at getting in there easily and finishing many ways and making good decisions even if it was only 11 games.

tier 1: Kyrie

tier 2: Austin, JWill and Hurley

tier 3: idk right now

[rthomas]

I really wouldn't put Kyrie in the top 10. Not because I don't like him but because he only played a few games. What about Nolan? J. Dawkins?

[davekay1971]

This kid Austin has stood up several times now and carried his team, literally on his shoulders, to a tight victory. He has taken a beating in just about every game he has played. He has the quickest feet going to the basket at speed and slivering through a crowd I have ever seen. Only thing comparable is Lionel Messi. Kyrie might be better, but not tougher, and certainly not as durable. Austin's quick feet, speed, slivering ability, and deceptive strength present a unique combination. He thrives for "the moment," delivers threes from amazing distance when it counts the most, gets to the basket and scores in amazing ways, and has learned how to give other guys an opportunity to do their thing, even at crunch time.and gets to the basket, scores and/or draws a foul amongst two, often three players.

Abstractly, Kyrie might have been better at Duke then Austin but we'll never know because he went down after 5 games and left. The only big game that Kyrie played in for Duke he shut down the player of the year in the ACC (too bad he was on the same team) and Duke lost. Austin has carried Duke to at least two huge victories, has grown tremendously as a player, and has the nerves and grit of a gun slinger. He's my pick between the two.

JWill, he had this ability to start hard towards the basket right, pull it back, catch, shoot and make the three or hesitate if the guy closed, and continue to beat him on the bounce. I think he carried it every time. He never was called for it, so perhaps I'm wrong. I think tons of guards beat their defenders only because of carries that are not called--at least one of Virginia Tech's guards among them. If that's truly an okay play (it seems reality says it is), you maybe have tto give it to JWill. But, Rivers is only a freshman, and I think he'll be around a while, maybe three, even four, seasons. Then we'll measure.

Love the first and 3rd paragraphs (especially the use of the word "slivering", which may or may not be in Websters, but it describes what Austin does perfectly), completely disagree with the 2nd.

First, Kyrie was with us 8 games before going down, just as a nitpicking point of accuracy. Counting his 3 games in his return, that's 11.

Kyrie played in 5 big games for us. He helped Duke beat high quality competition in the early season against Marquette, K-State, Mich St, and Butler. He then played in the Arizona debacle.

It's completely unfair to characterize his performance against Arizona as "shutting down" Nolan Smith. Are we really going to lay the blame on a freshman for Nolan's performance against Arizona? Obviously, Kyrie coming back disrupted Nolan's performance, but who's fault is that? Kyrie's? Nolan was a senior, a captain, and, as much as I love the guy, he had some responsibility to figure out how to work with Kyrie in the backcourt on Kyrie's return, without getting taken out of his own game. How about K, who I respect and admire and firmly believe is the best college basketball coach in the last 40 years? Maybe there was no good solution to working Kyrie back in to the lineup at the start of the NCAAT, but it's the responsibility of the coach to find one if it's there...not the responsiblity of the freshman.

I, personally, don't subscribe to the theory that Kyrie came back and looked first and foremost to showcase himself. He was too good of a teammate all year, especially when injured, to just throw the team aside. I think Kyrie came back and looked to help the team any way he could. And, against Arizona, he was the ONLY guy who was effective.

He didn't shut Nolan down that game.

[davekay1971]

I can't talk about Austin's omelette difficulties. I break them every time. They end up just being scrambled. My wife, on the other hand, manages to turn them perfectly. Infuriating. She's already better than me at most everything, now it's omelettes, too. So, I've got Austin's back on this one. Just scramble those eggs, Austin. It's easier and better for your mental health.

BTW: I also have it on good authority that he tends to castle too early in chess. Pathetic.

[rsvman]

.....
BTW: I also have it on good authority that he tends to castle too early in chess. Pathetic.

Better too early than too late.

[uh_no]

BTW: I also have it on good authority that he tends to castle too early in chess. Pathetic.

He took 1:03 to play chopin's minute waltz.....not sure how he lives with himself.

[Papa John]

If you limit yourself to cheddar, you're missing out. Gruyere, feta, maybe even a cream cheese with dill.

But I can tell that Austin doesn't get it. Anyone who kicks his leg out on a jump shot like that must not get the nuances.

Hard to believe that the son of an NBA coach who plays for K, and is the first-freshman-to-lead-us-in-scoring since Johnny Dawkins, is so fundamentally flawed.

He wouldn't even make sous-chef or saucier at a two-star. Seriously.



(But damn, he's gonna be able to buy a few for the home kitchen!)

Nothing wrong with a solid aged cheddar, though I was under the impression that we were talking about a plain omelette, given that we're talking about a pure display of skill here. I have to agree with the idea of a cheese with a bit more flavor kick, such as feta. I myself like a nice Gouda—melts nicely, and adds a divinely creamy flavor.

Agree on the leg-kick comment... It's the habit of one who likely tends to cover up his omelette mishaps with a handful of chopped parsley or some other garnish camouflage. Based on his interviews, however, I'd say Austin is definitely qualified for front-of-the-house.


BTW: I also have it on good authority that he tends to castle too early in chess. Pathetic.

Appalling! Hadn't heard this one, davekay1971. I'll bet he's too aggressive with the queen, too...

[OldPhiKap]

I was playing chess on an East Campus bench once, and was accused of cheating for using an en passant move. We literally had to walk over to the East Campus Library to find a rule book.

Austin is so fast and nasty when initiating an offensive attack, he is allowed to use that move anywhere, anytime. With any piece, which is uber-nasty.

[throatybeard]

"See, the king stay the king. Aight? Everything stay who he is."

Austin strikes me as the sort of dude who would open with the King's Indian Defense. The man likes to roll the dice, and the second half is where a lot of the war is waged.

[OldPhiKap]

Austin strikes me as the sort of dude who would open with the King's Indian Defense. The man likes to roll the dice, and the second half is where a lot of the war is waged.

Austin "No Gambit Declined" Rivers.

Karo-Kann couldn't double team Austin if you spotted them an open file.


I'd call him Austin "Spassky" Rivers, but the nickname doesn't really translate well to hoops.

[davekay1971]

Austin "No Gambit Declined" Rivers.

Karo-Kann couldn't double team Austin if you spotted them an open file.


I'd call him Austin "Spassky" Rivers, but the nickname doesn't really translate well to hoops.

How about Austin "Deep Thought" Rivers. Maybe more fitting given the cold blooded way he dispatches opponents. Also, watching him dribble and consider his options before that destruction of Carolina, he may very well have been looking 11 moves into the future of the game.

Checkmate, Rivers...

[OldPhiKap]

Checkmate, Rivers

Much better than Harrison Barnes' catch phrase:

"Game, Blouses"

[greybeard]

This is a really bad habit causing him to get his shot blocked more than necessary. I wonder why the coaching staff hasn't worked with him on this issue.

Finishing wih his right, particularly when driving even slightly right to left, brings the ball up to shooting directly in the midle of the defender, right past the middle of his face, and then lightly over the middle of his head. How does the defender get a hand on such a shot? Even tryng will almost always draw a foul. If it doesn't, it is a surprisingly easy shot to make. However, Rivers takes serious pounding because he uses this finish as often as he does.

Finishing left for a guy Rivers' size and girth would expose the ball to a big taking it out of the air without coming anywhere near River's body. If Rivers is coming from an acute angle towards the right side I believe he finishes with his left.

A bigger, stronger guy guarded by a big coming from the right to left with a similarly sized defender on him will or should almost always finish left. There's a lot of width there, a much higher release point distant from the defender, and as easy as a layup when done at the rim. When done old-school from three or four feet out with an extended sweeping arm, high release point, and upward direction off the backboard, the shot is extremely easy to master and extremely accurate. Miles made one yesterday. That shot, a common feature in the 60's into the 70s, when a fair number of players used it wth either hand, is a lost art. Funny thing, you hardly ever see a player dunk with his off hand. Princeton, when it has had an undersized pivot, the pivot almost always has and frequently uses an old school hook going either way.

Funny, you almost never see a player on any level finish with his off hand. I can't remember even seeing one when I've watched a dunk contest.

[NashvilleDevil]

"See, the king stay the king. Aight? Everything stay who he is."

Still dislike Herc everytime I watch that show for his actions thr led to Randy getting out back in a group home.

[throatybeard]

Still dislike Herc everytime I watch that show for his actions thr led to Randy getting out back in a group home.

Herc is an ugly butterfly with incredibly far-reaching effects in S4 isn't he? Randy, of course, but also tipping Marlo off to the police surveilance, getting Little Kevin in trouble, firing Snoop's power drill into the street, screwing up the case for the Homicide police, abandoning Bubbles and upseting him to the degree that he puts him on the Reverend's car, roughing up the Reverend. This is just off the top of my head. There's surely more.

[NashvilleDevil]

Herc is an ugly butterfly with incredibly far-reaching effects in S4 isn't he? Randy, of course, but also tipping Marlo off to the police surveilance, getting Little Kevin in trouble, firing Snoop's power drill into the street, screwing up the case for the Homicide police, abandoning Bubbles and upseting him to the degree that he puts him on the Reverend's car, roughing up the Reverend. This is just off the top of my head. There's surely more.

I'm currently rewatching S4 and I think you've nailed them all. And he's also the one who alerted the press about Hamsterdam in S3.