MBB: Duke 74, FSU 66 - Post-Game Thread

[pfrduke]

Great to win those 5-on-8 games. Gutty performance.

[Ggallagher]

Nice job tonight and Miles and Ryan did lots of great work to keep us on top. Go DUKE

[NSDukeFan]

Huge win! Great performance! Maybe this team has a chance to win that first round NCAA game.

[J4Kop99]

A monster shooting night from behind the arc. Our bigs had to battle against foul trouble all night long so our guards went to work. Dawkins set the tone and Rivers played a very nice game as well.

I do like how our bigs stayed aggressive throughout the game though. A lot of times players get tentative and think too much in those situations.

Definitely a big win. Onto the next one.

[Chris Randolph]

Very impressive win by Duke. Thought the other 2 refs were fine, Ted Valentine was brutal. Dawkins, Rivers, Mi Plumlee were big time tonight. I wish we could get a free throw rebound tonight. Mason sure did struggle. Curry came on in the 2nd half which was great to see. Quick turnaround Saturday!

[superdave]

I thought Miles was The Man tonight. He brought a Gatling gun to a knife fight. Huge. We needed his minutes with Mason's foul trouble. FSU has an athletic front line and he matched them. Did all the dirty work.

Big win. Big, big, big win.

[Utley]

We really came to play tonight. Really gritty all game - Rivers hit a lot of key moment baskets. Andre was ridiculous. Miles is really starting to become the heart of the team - huge early spark.

Perhaps our best all around game since November. This was a 20 point win officiating aside.

[gotoguy]

Ditto, a couple key late baskets by Seth!

Another team effort 7-0 on the road in conference! Awesome

[mapei]

Miles was definitely a major factor. Gritty win, felt in doubt until the last two minutes or so. Without Dawkins we aren't even in the game, though. He was superb. FSU had almost no 3-point shooting, we had lots; that was the difference.

Looked bad when Austin went down. Glad he appears OK.

[Utley]

Ditto, a couple key late baskets by Seth!

Another team effort 6-0 on the road in conference! Awesome

Seth seemed jittery early - which makes stepping up all the more special

[CoachJ10]

I am really happy with the mental strength and confidence our guys played with tonight. Given the circumstances of atrocious reffing, a hungry (and oh-so classy) crowd, and an incredibly physical opponent playing for something...they played a great game. No nit-picking of the negatives tonight for me...just really fun to see our guys play a man's game tonight.

[diveonthefloor]

Two thoughts:


1) We need to petition NCAA to retire Hess, Valentine, and Luckie.
2) Hope Austin isn't hurt. Remember Kyrie played out the game in which he was injured.

[brumby041]

Teddy Valentine was NOT going to be shown up by Karl Hess!

[pfrduke]

Ditto, a couple key late baskets by Seth!

Another team effort 6-0 on the road in conference! Awesome

7-0 now. With just a trip to Winston away from pulling off 8-0. I'm hesitant to mention it (and firmly knocking on wood as I do), but was 1999 the last time we went undefeated in the ACC away from Cameron?*

*no comment about how the unbalanced schedule, including no trips to Charlottesville, Raleigh, or Coral Gables, may have aided our potential ability to do this.

[Albert]

Seth -- I would think it is easy to have a cold night, and just keep missing, but correctly noted, those shots were that much bigger because of that.

I thought Ryan hit a three at a moment when nobody, particularly Austin, seemed to want to shoot. Big for that reason alone.

The much maligned D showed up.

I'm going to go over to IC and complain about the refs now. What an atrocity of a game, and I don't think it was just Valentine.

[cruxer]

I'm so glad I found ESPN in hockey-loving canada. This was one of my favorite games to watch this season. We showed the toughness to battle 5 on 8!

-c

[Duvall]

7-0 now. With just a trip to Winston away from pulling off 8-0. I'm hesitant to mention it (and firmly knocking on wood as I do), but was 1999 the last time we went undefeated in the ACC away from Cameron?*

*no comment about how the unbalanced schedule, including no trips to Charlottesville, Raleigh, or Coral Gables, may have aided our potential ability to do this.

2000.

[MartyClark]

I thought the team showed a lot of heart tonight. Miles had a great game, Andre had a great game, Seth showed at the end of the game. The only negative is that Mason was the invisible man tonight.

Perfect set up for beating the Tarheels for the regular season title.

[OldPhiKap]

Nice win. Survive, improve, move on.

[pamtar]

Either our defense improved dramatically, or they suck at offense. Still, great win and great hustle all over the floor tonight. We played with confidence at every position. Also, I was really impressed with our ability to survive FSU's runs and keep the crowd out of the game. If we play like this every night we might win another game or two...

[throatybeard]

2000.

Yeah. 15-1. Home loss to Maryland...after which everyone trashed the students. Also lost at home to Saint John's by one point. Most recent noncon loss in Cameron.

[1 24 90]

Andre got the post game interview on ESPNews!!!

[trinity79]

If we play with the desire and the focus we had tonight, we may lose but we will not EVER look bad (I'm thinking about you, Arizona game last season). I think we rounded the corner tonight and left behind a lot of "baggage" that had accumulated for this team. Carolina, State, and now a very substantial win in a place that has traditionally given us a lot of problems. I realize that coach K wants to win out in the regular season ACC. We held serve tonight. GTHC (and, oh yeah, Carolina GTH) :D

[pfrduke]

2000.

Wow. Digging slightly further, we had a streak of 24 consecutive conference road wins between the loss at UNC in '98 and the loss at UVA in '01. Not likely to match that any time soon, I suspect.

[Saratoga2]

I thought Miles was The Man tonight. He brought a Gatling gun to a knife fight. Huge. We needed his minutes with Mason's foul trouble. FSU has an athletic front line and he matched them. Did all the dirty work.

Big win. Big, big, big win.

I didn't see the box score yet, but I think Seth held his TOs down while playing good defense and chipping in with a few points in key situations. The size and aggressiveness of FSU held his scoring numbers down, but I thought his maturity showed and he played well.

Austin was very impressive tonight with both offensive and defense being stellar. He doesn't seem to get flustered by physical play and he certainly took some hits in the game. Hope his ankle will be okay.

Andre shot so well tonight. We needed it and he delovered. I thought he defense was good but coach K played Thornton toward the end until FSC went small. I defer to coach K on that one.

Both Ryan and Miles did an excellent job contesting inside while hitting a lot of key points. It was good they could, since Mason had another off game, that was really pretty sorry. Maybe his dad needs to talk to him and get him going again.

This was a big win, on the road, against a very big, physical, deep and competitive team. Lets hope that the guys can recover on a short turnaround to handle VT on Saturday. Love to see Mason get it together and have a big game. We need him to play well to make a deep run.

[wsb3]

One word i thought was Tough..We were mentally & physically tough.

[Duvall]

Wow. Digging slightly further, we had a streak of 24 consecutive conference road wins between the loss at UNC in '98 and the loss at UVA in '01. Not likely to match that any time soon, I suspect.

Well, at least not for two years, anyway.

[wsb3]

Wow. Digging slightly further, we had a streak of 24 consecutive conference road wins between the loss at UNC in '98 and the loss at UVA in '01. Not likely to match that any time soon, I suspect.

That is a very overlooked incredible streak that as you state I don't see being match any time soon.

[SCMatt33]

Obviously, the biggest reason that Duke won this game was the 3 point shooting. Dawkins and Rivers hit 3's to build the lead early, and Kelly and Curry each his some really clutch threes in the second half to stop FSU runs. I really want to commend Duke on their team rebounding though. They gave up a pretty big number of offensive rebounds to FSU, but their weren't a lot of them that were really frustrating. They gave up several in the last two minutes (including 3 on missed free throws) when they were pretty much in "don't foul" mode. Most of the others were caused by someone being open as a result of help defense forcing a miss in the first place. Duke did a great job at keeping rebounds alive and the big guys didn't try to do too much and would tap the ball to crashing guards. I don't have a count but I would think that close to half (if not more) of Duke's rebounds came off tips or off the floor. I also thought Duke did a great job of guarding the paint without fouling. Considering how tightly the game was called, Duke did a good job of forcing tough shots over defenders without fouling ball handlers. In fact, a lot of the big guys fouls came on plays where they weren't defending a ball handler. This team has plenty of shortcomings on defense, but their improved discipline helped a lot. It did help that FSU is limited offensively, as the top offensive big guys in the country will make those shots. In fact, it's happened to Duke a lot this year (see Robinson, Sullinger, Zeller, and Reggie Johnson), but you just have to force the tougher shot and try to rebound once the entry pass is made. If they can grab 50-50 rebounds as well against other teams as they did today, those performances I mentioned earlier might not repeat themselves.

Before I address the officiating in a nit picky manner, one thing that was huge in this game was Snaer picking up 2 fouls early. He had 7 points in just 10 minutes in the first half, sitting out the entire last 10 minutes of that half when Duke built its lead. In the first 19 minutes of the second half, he was only able to match that total, before picking up a couple of garbage layups in the last minute. He could have had a much bigger impact and been in a better rhythm from 3. He made is only attempt before sitting in the first half and went just 1 for 5 in the second half.

It certainly wasn't a greatly officiated game, but it might not been quite as bad as it looked. I think most of it can be put on TV Teddy. He seemed to be calling a much tighter game than the other guys, and when one guy is calling it tighter than the others, he kind of takes over because when 1 of 2 refs thinks it's a foul, it's a foul. The blatant calls that they missed were the Rivers trip and the Rivers play heading out of bounds (though the ref, not Teddy, didn't have a great look at their arms, which is where the foul happened. The other really bad call was giving the FSU guy an and one on Miles fourth or fifth. In general, Duke got a lot of silly fouls on big men, while FSU got them on perimeter guys. One that went Duke's way was the non-call on Mason for his fourth with 12 or 13 minutes left. There was mutual contact getting to the spot at the same time and that should be a defensive foul. There were certainly a lot of other questionable calls, but not many that a significant percentage of refs wouldn't make.

[DesertDevil]

Tough, tough win at a tough place to play. I can't believe how bad Valentine is. If any of you have the game DVR'd, check out the loose ball along the sideline when Thornton gets called for the foul. Valentine is watching the ball roll along the side to see if it rolls out of bounds. He is not even looking when the contact occurs. Complete & total guess that he got wrong.

I don't know who grades the ACC officials, but Hess & Valentine must have compromising pictures of them. No other explanation as to why they still have jobs.

[Duke76]

Andre got the post game interview on ESPNews!!!

Did K mention anything about they way the game was called?

[superdave]

Does anyone else feel like I do right now? I had great anticipation heading into this game, felt tense all afternoon and was wired all game long. I thought this team went into a fight and stuck its chin right in the middle of all that, took the big punches and won.

This is a big win for this particular team. We exorcised demons from FSU game 1. We stepped up on the road, against the refs, against a roster of athletes and played tough.

I think we're a lot better than we were a month ago. I think we have established roles, cut down of execution-type mistakes and are talking and rotating better on defense. We have done the things no one thought we'd do. If this trend continues, we're going to beat some good teams going forward.

Super "Cajones" Dave

[dyedwab]

and it was a tough, gritty win. Our guys did us proud - 40 minutes of intense focus and effort.

And FSU's defense is no joke - but we got great shots against it. Kudos to everyone.

Also, big props to Miles, Mason, and Ryan for playing with foul trouble the whole second half. Very mature play.

Just a great win

[brumby041]

Although he definitely appeared to have the ankle rolled on during the attempt to get the ball, it seemed to me that he was in pain because he hit his shin on the side of the table just off the court. That is the kind of injury that hurts like crazy for a minute or two and then fades pretty quickly. (Also why soccer players wear shin guards...) This would explain (beyond his toughness) why he didn't appear bothered by his ankle afterwards.

Anyone see it differently or have an update from AR or the team on exactly what happened?

[DesertDevil]

Although he definitely appeared to have the ankle rolled on during the attempt to get the ball, it seemed to me that he was in pain because he hit his shin on the side of the table just off the court. That is the kind of injury that hurts like crazy for a minute or two and then fades pretty quickly. (Also why soccer players wear shin guards...) This would explain (beyond his toughness) why he didn't appear bothered by his ankle afterwards.

Anyone see it differently or have an update from AR or the team on exactly what happened?


Looked like the ankle to me. Once the adrenaline wears off, he's going to be a sore, sore dude. He'll miss a practice or two.

[weezie]

It certainly wasn't a greatly officiated game

Yeah, since when is a defender allowed to run out of bounds, between the inbounder and receiving player? Not kidding, just asking.

[Delaware]

Very impressive win by Duke. Thought the other 2 refs were fine, Ted Valentine was brutal. Dawkins, Rivers, Mi Plumlee were big time tonight. I wish we could get a free throw rebound tonight. Mason sure did struggle. Curry came on in the 2nd half which was great to see. Quick turnaround Saturday!

Teddy V was absolutely brutal tonight. He does love the spotlight, but I can't for the life of me understand why. He is wrong so often, not sure why you would want to point it out so blatantly!

[SCMatt33]

Yeah, since when is a defender allowed to run out of bounds, between the inbounder and receiving player? Not kidding, just asking.

I thought FSU was imbounding on that play. I really don't know about that rule, and If its the play I'm thinking of, there was a lot of room between the defender and the inbounder (though much of that space was the inbounder moving back off the end line), but I really don't know how that rule works.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah, since when is a defender allowed to run out of bounds, between the inbounder and receiving player? Not kidding, just asking.

when the wide recievers are pushed out of bounds by the safeties on a punt, they are still allowed to come back on the field of play and touch the ball without penalty.

Are you talking about a different sport?

[CLW]

Gutty effort tonight and FSU IMHO made a HUGE mistake by not feeding the post early/often in the 2nd half allowed the Plumlees and Kelly to stay in the game.

[gam7]

Wow. Digging slightly further, we had a streak of 24 consecutive conference road wins between the loss at UNC in '98 and the loss at UVA in '01. Not likely to match that any time soon, I suspect.

PFR! Haven't seen you around here lately! Hope all is well.

I was impressed with our suffocating free throw defense tonight. 55% for FSU.

[weezie]

when the wide recievers are pushed out of bounds by the safeties on a punt, they are still allowed to come back on the field of play and touch the ball without penalty.

Are you talking about a different sport?

If you're not kidding me I'm talking about when Ryan was inbounding towards the end of 2nd half under basket and the fsu defender ran outside the line and between Ryan and Tyler before/just as the ball was inbounded. Seriously. I've never seen it before.

[devildeac]

when the wide recievers are pushed out of bounds by the safeties on a punt, they are still allowed to come back on the field of play and touch the ball without penalty.

Are you talking about a different sport?

No, she had the correct sport-f$u football. :rolleyes:

[CBDUKE]

Looked like the ankle to me. Once the adrenaline wears off, he's going to be a sore, sore dude. He'll miss a practice or two.

Wow, I hope not because we play again on Saturday. There aren't going to be two practices.

[UrinalCake]

FSU allows something like 24% from three on the season. Makes our shooting seem even more impressive

[mapei]

I don't think the reffing was that obviously bad. After seeing all the complaints in this thread (you'd think we lost rather than won), I checked the stats. We were called for 23 fouls to 20 for FSU (including some intentionals at the end); we shot 26 FTs to their 22; each team had a player foul out. I'm not saying you can tell everything from stats, but FSU fans probably had as much to terp about as we did.

[devildeac]

I did notice K did not leave the floor until the clock was at 0:00;).

[OldPhiKap]

If you're not kidding me . . . .

Weezie, you know me better than that! ;>)

[Saratoga2]

I had to mute him to enjoy the game. Valentine, Hess and Dickie V all need to go!

[OldPhiKap]

I did notice K did not leave the floor until the clock was at 0:00;).

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that we didn't lose by thirty points.

(heh)

[devildeac]

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that we didn't lose by thirty points.

(heh)

What? f$u beat someone by 30 (actually 33;)) points this year?

[lotusland]

Great game for Dawkins and Miles. Also Rivers gets the Singler award for getting beat up but still coming up big.

With all the sniping about the officiating it feels like I'm reading IC. A couple of missed calls that no one has mentioned was the blatant travel/carry by Seth before he dished to Dre for an early three and what was an obvious 4th? foul on Mason against James when Hamilton threw up his hands. This was not a 20-point win except for the officiating but a strong game nonetheless for the good guys.

[mapei]

Here's a stat that does jump out: they had 16 offensive rebounds.

[weezie]

I had to mute him to enjoy the game. Valentine, Hess and Dickie V all need to go!

Actually, it's getting better when Vitale is on. We spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the call was and who it was on, kind of a do-it-yourself commentary. Since we never get the info from the tv guys, it makes for a more engaging television experience. :rolleyes:

[HateCarolina]

You know it's funny b/c the first foul of the night against FSU was called by Teddy "I think I am, but I'm NOT a Superstar" Valentine and I really thought things might go our way. When he was later making tremendously bad calls (i.e. the late in the game, and I believe fifth foul, block against Miles) I have to admit that I was not suprised. The guy is after all a complete idiot, but what really ticked me off was the other balding older ref who seemed to be the one who called us for everything under the sun in the first half. I'm not sure what his name is, but at one point I was day dreaming that if I saw him walking through the Atlanta airport that I would berate him like no other. Alas I'm slipping into my fantasy world where unc loses out the season.

I am REALLY proud of our team's performance tonight and with the exception of a few sloppy TO's I think we played a complete game both offensively and defensively. Obviously Andre was ridiculous and Austin continues to evolve into almost a sure lottery pick. I noticed they said there were 19 scouts watching the game which makes me wonder if that will work in favor of Mason deciding to come back for another year b/c he really was ineffective much of the game. Granted he got in early foul trouble (with some suspect calls), but I was not too terribly impressed with his D or rebounding. I may come back and change this statement after I re-watch the game tomorrow and check the box score, but I doubt it. :confused:

At any rate Go Duke and GTHC, just GTH!!

[HateCarolina]

I don't think the reffing was that obviously bad. After seeing all the complaints in this thread (you'd think we lost rather than won), I checked the stats. We were called for 23 fouls to 20 for FSU (including some intentionals at the end); we shot 26 FTs to their 22; each team had a player foul out. I'm not saying you can tell everything from stats, but FSU fans probably had as much to terp about as we did.

Seven of of our FT attempts were fouls on 3 pt shots (Kelly actually had a four point play). And they had three or four late intentional fouls, so taking those out the numbers are a little more skewed. I did forget to mention and I now see someone else did the no call on Seth's walk where he fed Andre. That was definitely a screw up by the refs in our favor. But another issue I had was with the late no-goal tending call against James when I believe it was Austin's shot was clearing coming down.

[sagegrouse]

This was a vintage Duke game in terms of defense. The defensive effort was consistent and effective throughout the game. While FSU is not an offensive juggernaut, Snaer, Dulkys and Gibson can put up the points, and they didn't.

Dre provided the big first half lead; Austin, Seth and Ryan took up the slack in the half. (You know, there is a little bit of Jon Scheyer savvy in Ryan Kelly.)

Miles didn't put up dominant numbers, but he was very strong inside on both O and D.

On loose balls, FSU did really well if the 'Noles could bat the ball in the air; Duke got most of the balls that went to the floor.

Great effort, great win, now let's turn this into a streak!

sagegrouse

[FerryFor50]

I don't think the reffing was that obviously bad. After seeing all the complaints in this thread (you'd think we lost rather than won), I checked the stats. We were called for 23 fouls to 20 for FSU (including some intentionals at the end); we shot 26 FTs to their 22; each team had a player foul out. I'm not saying you can tell everything from stats, but FSU fans probably had as much to terp about as we did.

This is not a very compelling argument. With about 10 min left, our 3 best bigs had 4 fouls. Theirs had no more than 2. The foul discrepancy was nearly +10 for FSU early in the 2nd half. I can't see how a team so physical gets so many offensive boards without fouling. And you can't discount intentional fouls at the end of a game. FSU had 4-5 of those. Take those out and that's 8-10 fewer fts and a much larger discrepancy in fouls.

[mgtr]

Also Rivers gets the Singler award for getting beat up but still coming up big.

This is a great point. Rivers is a pretty tough cookie, and in that regard, he does remind me of Singler.

[HDB]

Huge win tonight. Great to see Duke play so well in Tallahassee.

I really hope we see Mason turn it around on Saturday. I suspect K will really focus on getting Mason plenty of touches in the post against VA Tech to try and get him going.

[HateCarolina]

This is a great point. Rivers is a pretty tough cookie, and in that regard, he does remind me of Singler.

Yeah let's hope that he reminds us of Singler so much that he'll stick around all four years (okay I'll take just one more year).

[mr. synellinden]

Although he definitely appeared to have the ankle rolled on during the attempt to get the ball, it seemed to me that he was in pain because he hit his shin on the side of the table just off the court. That is the kind of injury that hurts like crazy for a minute or two and then fades pretty quickly. (Also why soccer players wear shin guards...) This would explain (beyond his toughness) why he didn't appear bothered by his ankle afterwards.

Anyone see it differently or have an update from AR or the team on exactly what happened?

It was both. He got his right ankle rolled up on when the FSU player landed on him (with no foul called) and then when rolling out of bounds smacked his left shin on the edge of the table. At one brief instant he was clutching for both lower legs.

[mkline09]

It is a bit of an understatement to say this was a big win but it may have been Duke's biggest win all season. That was as tough as I've seen them play and not just physically. They showed so much poise and every time FSU made a run Duke had an answer. Hasn't always been the case this year. Rivers is really growing up. I've been critical of him like a lot of others but he is a tough tough kid and his refuse to lose attitude is really starting to show through. Miles was a beast and what can you say about Andre Dawkins. When he is on he has the most beautiful shot in college basketball.

There is till a lot to do and more games to go but this was a big step forward for a team who has struggled putting teams away or falling into big deficits. This team is maturing at the right time. That doesn't mean they are destined for greatness but I'm glad to see them come together. Great great win. Happy for the guys. Now rest up and focus on VT coming to town.

[UrinalCake]

Worth noting is that we came on strong from the opening tip, despite how raucous their crowd was. We did the same at UNC. Wish there was some way to have that kind of focus out of the gate when we play at home, but I guess it bodes well for our postseason aspirations.

Would love for the ACC regular season to come down to our final game. There's still work for all three times until then, but it's shaping up to be a great final couple weeks of the conference season.

[roywhite]

Here's a stat that does jump out: they had 16 offensive rebounds.

I'm not sure what's notable about that stat.

It wasn't a key to a win for FSU; they're big, strong, jump well, and crash the offensive boards, yet they did not dominate.

The notable stat from the boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205385653) was Duke 13-28 from 3-pt.
And, oh yeah:
Duke 74 FSU 66

[snowdenscold]

Those first couple minutes had pretty intense and energetic play from both sides - exciting to watch! (especially since we went up 9-4).

And very happy with the win, but.... how many games in a row is this now with a missed Plumlee dunk?

[gwlaw99]

Half of the inside Carolina thread is a discussion about why there should be no three point shot in college basketball :)

[Newton_14]

Huge win. Just huge. This team just continues to answer the bell no matter how many times they get knocked down on the mat. It felt at times during the first half that FSU was making play after play on both ends, yet Duke was up 6, or 12, or 5 or 13. Uncanny. I had angst heading into the game, but once I saw Bob's note that Duke was favored by 1.5, I smiled inside. The entire planet would have expected this Duke team to be underdogs in this game. I have seen this movie before too many times though. One time in particular I will always remember, was ACC Tournament Saturday in March 2001. Duke was facing Maryland, who had beat them 10 days earlier in Cameron in the game that Boozer broke his foot. I am at the golf course that morning, on the putting green before my round. A guy comes out of the clubhouse and said "Wow, I just heard that Duke is a 1 point favorite against Maryland this afternoon. There is just no way. They have no chance without Boozer". I replied with "Ok big boy, head back in there, call your bookie and lay a $1000 or so down on Maryland". He said "I'm not doing that but there is no way Duke wins that game today". We all know how that prediction worked out for him.

Fast forward to today, and the poor UNC manager in my office gave me Duke+2 for lunch tomorrow. Bless his tarheel heart.:)

Miles was big. Dude keeps numerous possessions alive these days with extra hustle and work on the offensive boards. He seems to get his hands on everything anymore. He can also score the basketball effectively when he plays within himself. Great to see. I thought Austin and Miles set the tone early, Andre gave us separation heading into the half, Austin and Miles set the tone again coming out of halftime, and Kelly and Seth closed the door on the final FSU runs. (Sorry for the horrible grammar there Throaty):cool:

In the midst of all that, was some of the best defense this team has played all year. They were active on defense, rotated well, challenged the paint much better than recent games, and found shooters in time to bother the shot. Austin did an excellent job on Snaer, and the guards as a whole stayed in front of their man much better than games past.

K was extremely happy in his post game comments as he has great respect for this FSU team. A lot of teams would have gotten ran out of that building tonight. Some may have even lost by 33 or something.:eek:

So, does this mean if Duke played UNC at FSU they would win by 41?

[FerryFor50]

Half of the inside Carolina thread is a discussion about why there should be no three point shot in college basketball :)

Can you imagine how dominant UNC would be if there were no 3 point line?

- they can't really defend the 3 that well
- they don't shoot the 3 that often or that well
- they don't really get called for fouls
- they wouldn't have lost to Duke

Here's to keeping the 3point line!

[Son of Mojo]

So, does this mean if Duke played UNC at FSU they would win by 41?

Yes, yes it does. ;)

[RockyMtDevil]

When they cut it to 61-58 with the crowd going nuts, Seth drains a three and then Kelly drains another one...Huge plays. We didn't wilt and we took several punches from them. they closed it to within 7 at the half and we responded with solid D and good shooting, then they narrowed the lead at 55-50 and we responded as a mature, confidant team should do. I'm just reallly proud at the mental toughness showed tonight as we continued to beat back their best shots, even under extreme foul trouble.

Austin's on ball defense has improved dramatically even since beginning of February. This was a warrior type win tonight.

[FerryFor50]

I notice the phrase "took punches" being used a lot.

Seems to be a theme when playing FSU... Always a bruising battle.

[Greg_Newton]

feldspar, I'm curious as to what you thought of the performance Mr. Edward Valentine tonight.

Huge, huge win. We're lucky Dawkins and Rivers were on fire in the first half, but once again, enough of our weapons were hot to get it done. Miles was solid and tough throughout, and Kelly and Curry were huge down the stretch. Didn't even matter that our oftentimes-best-player Mason was nonexistent all game, Curry didn't show up until crunch time, Kelly was weak in the first half, Hairston was ineffective, and we got very little out of starting PG because of our depth of weapons.

We're not a flawless team by any means, but that depth will give us a pretty good chance on most nights if we continue to play defense at the decent level we did tonight. It's interesting; after the two big comebacks, I have a lot more faith in this team down the stretch, and I think they do too. You just have a feeling that they can take the hits and get the job down, which is not something you could say earlier in the year.

Rivers took another step in solidifying his superstardom with an excellent game, and boy was I glad to see him come back strong after what I initially thought could have been a season-ending injury. I know he'll play Saturday, so I hope he's not too crippled tomorrow and that it doesn't linger.

I'm also pretty happy for Gbinije. Hasn't been an easy ride for him so far, but he stepped in out-of-position and did very, very well for a possession or two at a crucial juncture in a crucial game. They scored, I think, but his defense on that 6'10 pogo stick was pretty flawless.

[moonpie23]

our team is getting stronger and tougher!!!!


rock on!!!

[devildeac]

Half of the inside Carolina thread is a discussion about why there should be no three point shot in college basketball :)

Well, without it, they might not beat State this week, so let them argue away;).

[roywhite]

So Duke goes into Tallahassee, always a tough place to play and faces:

A very good FSU team, with size, strength, great defensive ability, and some outside shooters
Said team playing for the regular season championship against an opponent they defeated already, on the road
A crowd at a fever pitch for the biggest hoops game there in memory
And Mr. Valentine, who's not content to be considered for Best Actor in a Supporting Role, he wants to be Best Actor in a Leading Role

...and the Devils pull it off and come away with a huge win.

Bravo!

[RockyMtDevil]

feldspar, I'm curious as to what you thought of the performance Mr. Edward Valentine tonight.



I'm also pretty happy for Gbinije. Hasn't been an easy ride for him so far, but he stepped in out-of-position and did very, very well for a possession or two at a crucial juncture in a crucial game. They scored, I think, but his defense on that 6'10 pogo stick was pretty flawless.

I don't think Silent G got into the game tonight...

[dukelifer]

Can you imagine how dominant UNC would be if there were no 3 point line?

- they can't really defend the 3 that well
- they don't shoot the 3 that often or that well
- they don't really get called for fouls
- they wouldn't have lost to Duke

Here's to keeping the 3point line!

Seems like they have won their fair share of big games with the 3 ball. In their final four game against Villanova in 2009 they shot 11-22. In 2005 against Illinois they hit 9 of 16 in a game they won by 5. If they have good shooters they use the shot in a big way.

[Newton_14]

feldspar, I'm curious as to what you thought of the performance Mr. Edward Valentine tonight.

Huge, huge win. We're lucky Dawkins and Rivers were on fire in the first half, but once again, enough of our weapons were hot to get it done. Miles was solid and tough throughout, and Kelly and Curry were huge down the stretch. Didn't even matter that our oftentimes-best-player Mason was nonexistent all game, Curry didn't show up until crunch time, Kelly was weak in the first half, Hairston was ineffective, and we got very little out of starting PG because of our depth of weapons.

We're not a flawless team by any means, but that depth will give us a pretty good chance on most nights if we continue to play defense at the decent level we did tonight. It's interesting; after the two big comebacks, I have a lot more faith in this team down the stretch, and I think they do too. You just have a feeling that they can take the hits and get the job down, which is not something you could say earlier in the year.

Rivers took another step in solidifying his superstardom with an excellent game, and boy was I glad to see him come back strong after what I initially thought could have been a season-ending injury. I know he'll play Saturday, so I hope he's not too crippled tomorrow and that it doesn't linger.

I'm also pretty happy for Gbinije. Hasn't been an easy ride for him so far, but he stepped in out-of-position and did very, very well for a possession or two at a crucial juncture in a crucial game. They scored, I think, but his defense on that 6'10 pogo stick was pretty flawless.

Good point and I meant to give a shout out to both SilentG and Quinn in my original post. Quinn gave really solid minutes tonight in the first half, and Mike was fine defensively at the 4 on that last possession. That's 3 appearances in a row for Mike, and for K to trust a him in that environment is a signal the kid is improving in practice. Good for him. I had to laugh when the announcer stated the foul trouble was going to hurt Duke "because they are not a very deep team". Seriously do these guys even do prep work and research on the teams anymore?

[FerryFor50]

Seems like they have won their fair share of big games with the 3 ball. In their final four game against Villanova in 2009 they shot 11-22. In 2005 against Illinois they hit 9 of 16 in a game they won by 5. If they have good shooters they use the shot in a big way.

I'm talking about this year. You know how Tarholes can only remember the last 15 seconds. :)

[Cameron]

Andre with a brilliant opening stanza tonight in Tallahassee. He looked like Reggie in the fourth quarter against the Knicks (not sure which game; they were all like that). He has no pulse. Five threes on the road in six tries, during the most important 20-minute stretch of the season to that point for Duke, is just cold blooded. And Andre really worked to get himself those opportunities. Against a stiflingly pestering defense like Florida State, you earn every last point you get. And Andre just picked it to pieces. Like it was just another team chosen by free throws at the Y. Sensational.

We've been talking all year about needing to rediscover that swagger that made many of our more successful teams so menacing and unpleasant to play in the '90s, and boy have we found it. Propelled by the three-headed perimeter monster that is Rivers, Dawkins and Curry, these kids are beginning to play with the all-out intrepidity of those earlier Blue Devil juggernauts and aren't afraid to let their emotions ignite their games (or vice versa). There is nothing wrong with letting a little in-your-face bravado creep into your game from time to time, just to remind your opponent that you play for Duke and that they do not. That strut was back tonight. Andre's wickedly sly nod to the mob of jeerers filling the Leon County Civic Center after his last triple of the first half was the prettiest thing I've seen since J.J. was doing it to Sean Marshall in the ACC championship game. Sweet memories.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1998/weekly/cover/news/1999/02/17/inside0222/cover.jpg

[wallyman]

So many highlights but, other than Andre's first-half shooting, favorite moments were Austin's steal and the drive and dish to Miles at the end. Austin just gets better and better...

[sagegrouse]

Half of the inside Carolina thread is a discussion about why there should be no three point shot in college basketball :)

Not exactly, but almost. But I remember an interview with Dean shortly after the UNC-UVa fiasco in the ACC Finals in 1982 or 1983. Millions of viewers got to see UNC hold the ball for much of the game because UVa was in a zone and UNC had a one-point lead. These were arguably the two best college teams in the land. Something had to be done.

Dean responded to a question about introducing a shot clock to college by arguing that, if so, there needed to be a three-point shot to prevent the defenses from just packing it inside.


sage

[-bdbd]

I did notice K did not leave the floor until the clock was at 0:00;).
Pitchforks for you my friend!


This was a vintage Duke game in terms of defense. The defensive effort was consistent and effective throughout the game. While FSU is not an offensive juggernaut, Snaer, Dulkys and Gibson can put up the points, and they didn't.


The fact that the defense has been regularly of late is probably the most encouraging sign for post-season expectations... :D



Dre provided the big first half lead; Austin, Seth and Ryan took up the slack in the half. (You know, there is a little bit of Jon Scheyer savvy in Ryan Kelly.) Miles didn't put up dominant numbers, but he was very strong inside on both O and D.
Several good contributions, but terrific to see AD truly finding his groove of late. But I've said for a while that Kelly is frequently the most savvy kid on the floor -- he does LOTS of things away from the ball that help his team win, like the chess player playing several moves ahead, he so often seems to be in just the right place at the right time.


Rivers is a pretty tough cookie, and in that regard, he does remind me of Singler.I really agree. This kid just puts in his 33 minutes per game (highest among Frosh in ACC) and always maintains that stoic, sub-zero stare. Cold. Just tough, tough, tough!


Worth noting is that we came on strong from the opening tip, despite how raucous their crowd was. We did the same at UNC. Wish there was some way to have that kind of focus out of the gate when we play at home, but I guess it bodes well for our postseason aspirations. Would love for the ACC regular season to come down to our final game. There's still work for all three times until then, but it's shaping up to be a great final couple weeks of the conference season. I loved the initial focus and intensity. As you say, we gotta figure how to 'bring it' like that EVERY GAME. It almost seems inevitable now that it will come down to that final game in some shape or fashion. Funny that both NC@CH anf FSU have to play a solid top-20 UVA squad still.


Half of the inside Carolina thread is a discussion about why there should be no three point shot in college basketball :) That sounds like a solid argument for adding a 4-pt-line, don't you think... (maybe out at JJ or Langdon range ~ 25') ??



Great game all around guys!! Solid D and effort. Good win. And things are starting to "feel right" with this team....right on schedule.
:cool:

[devildeac]

It will be interesting to see what our defensive ranking does after tonight's game. Heck, if we moved up 5-10 spots without even playing yesterday:rolleyes:, then we might be top 50 after tonight;).

[dball]

Teddy Valentine was NOT going to be shown up by Karl Hess!

I'm told Teddy tossed out Googs and Corchiani in absentia.

What's with the stare down of Miles on the blocking call? A player doing that would have been T'd up.

[ChrisP]

Obviously, a BIG, HUGE, ENORMOUS victory for the good guys tonight :cool: So many things to like - I thought the "D" was very solid - and consistently solid - for most of the game. Great to see Andre stroking it so well and I really do think that he plays much better, more focused on defense when he hits a shot or two early. Great three point shooting by the guards. HUGE shots by Rivers, Kelly and Curry down the stretch. Wow...just WOW!!!

I especially loved this one tonight - one of the sweeter conference road victories for me in a long, long time. Did you guys hear the F$U fans booing after Austin got up after being absolutely hammered into that table that was courtside? Stay classy, Tallahassee! And then there was that doofus Gibson who pounded his chest after he made that early dunk (Vitale called him out on hit, too) so it was just really nice to stick it to the 'Noles on their home court in front of a packed house.

One last thing, I am usually very quick to criticize officials and, well, sometimes I MIGHT be just a teeny, weeny bit biased, but tonight? Are you freakin' kidding me? That was some unbelievable home cookin', folks. And yes, Seth did take like 62 steps on that one play in the first half but come ON - Mason and Ryan's 2nd fouls were both complete jokes and then they let someone (Snaer maybe?) trip Austin right out in front of everybody with no call, then Austin gets hammered on that play where he hurt BOTH legs with no call, then Thornton gets fouled going for a loose ball on the sidelines with no call. I thought the refs were really, really bad tonight and very much favored FSU. Teddy V was in rare form and seemed like he couldn't WAIT to call something on Duke. In case you can't tell, I thought the refs (mostly Teddy V) were horrible tonight and could have seriously cost Duke the game so this win is just all the more SWEET!!!

Go Duke! No let down on Saturday against the bums from Blacksburg!

[Greg_Newton]

I'm told Teddy tossed out Googs and Corchiani in absentia.

What's with the stare down of Miles on the blocking call? A player doing that would have been T'd up.

I preferred when he ran over and punched Tyler Thornton in the head while he was lying facedown on the ground. Pretty sure he was also screaming obscenities in Tyler's ear during that wicked judo chop.

[UrinalCake]

Worst call of all was at the end of the first half when the defender jumped on top of Seth's back. At the very least that should have been a non-shooting foul. Just because the half is almost over doesn't mean you don't blow the whistle.

As for Seth's travel, I didn't really see a good replay. I thought he lost control of the ball before batting it over to Andre. At any rate, he was fouled about five times by the "trapping" defense prior to that so I figured it should balance it out.

[devildeac]

Worst call of all was at the end of the first half when the defender jumped on top of Seth's back. At the very least that should have been a non-shooting foul. Just because the half is almost over doesn't mean you don't blow the whistle.

As for Seth's travel, I didn't really see a good replay. I thought he lost control of the ball before batting it over to Andre. At any rate, he was fouled about five times by the "trapping" defense prior to that so I figured it should balance it out.

Just saw that replay on espn highlights. He was "only" fouled 3 times at mid-court by their "trapping" defense:rolleyes:. He did take about 3 steps just before his assist to Dre. I agree. We'll call it a draw;).

[Kedsy]

I don't think Silent G got into the game tonight...

He did. He played the last 28 seconds of the first half.

[roywhite]

He did. He played the last 28 seconds of the first half.

Yeah, he made it into the boxscore, with "0" all across, except for Minutes where he had "0+", a notation I don't recall seeing before.
Presumably it's a way of explaining that he played less than half a minute.

[Kedsy]

I don't think you can evaluate refs by looking at individual plays. They blow calls for both sides, but they don't do it on purpose so sometimes it doesn't entirely even out.

My issue with the reffing tonight was it was somewhat inconsistent. When a game is as physical as this one was, if the officiating is inconsistent the players don't know how much contact is permissible and they can end up in foul trouble if they guess wrong. Tonight there were several plays that looked the same but were called differently, and I think that's something the refs should do better. But in my opinion there's just no point in complaining about a particular blown call (like the trip on Austin or James's uncalled goaltend, etc, etc), or saying the officials were terrible. It's a really tough job and frankly even tonight they got most of them right.

[ben2012]

Am I the only one who finds Hamilton hilarious to watch on the sidelines? He has some of the best facial expressions ever. Like when kelly got fouled in the first half on the three, he had the best expression ever.

[roywhite]

I don't think you can evaluate refs by looking at individual plays. They blow calls for both sides, but they don't do it on purpose so sometimes it doesn't entirely even out.

My issue with the reffing tonight was it was somewhat inconsistent. When a game is as physical as this one was, if the officiating is inconsistent the players don't know how much contact is permissible and they can end up in foul trouble if they guess wrong. Tonight there were several plays that looked the same but were called differently, and I think that's something the refs should do better. But in my opinion there's just no point in complaining about a particular blown call (like the trip on Austin or James's uncalled goaltend, etc, etc), or saying the officials were terrible. It's a really tough job and frankly even tonight they got most of them right.

You're probably right.

However, I think I'll stick with my impression of Teddy Valentine; he's inconsistent, overly dramatic, and doesn't particularly like Duke or Coach K.

[Kedsy]

Am I the only one who finds Hamilton hilarious to watch on the sidelines? He has some of the best facial expressions ever. Like when kelly got fouled in the first half on the three, he had the best expression ever.

I had the same thought while watching him today. Some of those facial expressions were truly priceless.

[1 24 90]

Did K mention anything about they way the game was called?

This was just the on court interview by Jeannine Edwards of ESPN.

[mapei]

I see calls made against us (or not made for us) every game that, to me, look wrong. I can be counted on to shout at the TV a few times per game about it. But I didn't have any more of those tonight than on other nights. I also pretty much never object when we get a favorable officiating decision. There were definitely calls made against us tonight where I didn't see a foul, but I bet if I reviewed the game objectively I'd come up with nearly as many made against FSU where I didn't see the foul.

My pet peeve is that I think just about every block should be called a charge instead. It seems like the rules are interpreted almost as if a defender has a duty to get out of the way if an offensive player is moving toward the basket, which I think is ridiculous.

That said, I thought this was our best game of the year in conference, and maybe the best in or out of conference (the Kansas win was also really impressive; this one obviously meantt more). The UNC win felt more like lady luck was on our side a bit. This one was contested and played with great determination and skill, along with some masterful game management by K dealing with the foul trouble.

Dawkins is my MOTM - he was just phenomenal. But I, too, really liked Miles tonight (and lately), and Austin has become the team's best player IMHO. He's an amazing athlete who plays on the edge, exciting to watch in a way that for me no one has been since JJ (and that was a very different skill set). I don't know how long we'll have him, but I'm hoping for a second year. Seth and Ryan are a little enigmatic to me - inconsistent, I guess. They each look impressive at times, make dumb turnovers or disappear at others. Ryan's 3s tonight were certainly very timely, but I think he had a late turnover, too.

I do think we're not all that deep. There's a dropoff after Mason-Miles-Ryan-Austin-Dre-Seth. Now those six are a heck of a lot better than most other teams' top six, which is why we've been so successful this season. But I'm always a little nervous when anyone else is in the game - not so much because they will make a dumb mistake as because I just don't think they are at or near the same level, especially offensively, and I don't think they are so good defensively that I'm willing to say their offense doesn't matter.

I guess from what people say Cook and G have potential, but I haven't seen much yet to confirm that in their limited minutes. Tyler has made some big plays for us but he's not someone I affirmatively want in the game when it's a critical moment. Josh hasn't progressed as much as I once thought he would. All those guys look like 4-year players, so they will get opportunities over time to prove themselves, but so far I think the comments that we aren't deep are accurate, especially at the 4-5 positions.

[hq2]

Another one of those frustrating "Why can't you do this more often?" Andre games, where we again see his
incredible shooting ability, which we probably won't see for another few games. If only he could be more
consistently good....

That was some of the worst officiating I've seen in a while. Not necessarily biased; just bad. A lot of
obviously blown calls both ways (Leonard Hamilton didn't seem too happy with the refs either).

Nice to see Miles continue his late-Zoubs imitation; we'll gladly take 10 and 8 from him every game, including a
few more of those nice little reverse layups and tap outs to open shooters (how come it takes players years to
figure things like this out?).

[MattC09]

The Miami loss is looking better and better in terms of a learning experience for the team. Since then, they have performed very well. I think the UNC game gave them a huge confidence boost, but the NC State comeback was an affirmation that they were good but could play "great" basketball. Tonight, they were able to get a win in a hostile environment against a team that had already beaten them. For all its flaws, this team has beaten five teams in the Top 15. Our defense is improving steadily, and the players seem to have the fire they were lacking at times earlier on in the season.

Special mention to Dawkins. He was on fire from the outside, but he also plays with greater intensity than he has before. He's working harder on the floor and it's great to see.

As for our dear Teddy Valentine, he is probably my least favorite referee around. He seems to be far more into the show than he is the game. I referee some high school basketball and have been told repeatedly to "sell your call" because it makes your job easier if you look like you know what you're doing. Valentine tries to sell every call. At times, it seems he makes a call just to see how well he can sell it to the crowd, coaches and players.

In the Kentucky-Miss St game, he called a foul on Mississippi State under their own basket on a rebound. He had danced over to the table demonstrably reporting the foul but never managed to see who was fouled. After reporting it, there was a discussion between the refs and players over who should be at the line Davis or Kidd-Gilchrist. Davis was at the line and the refs appeared happy with that until Dee Bost pointed out it should be Kidd-Gilchrist. If he hadn't been so concerned with his dramatic mechanics, he could have avoided the whole situation.

[Kedsy]

I wanted to send kudos to BluDvlsN1 for correctly suggesting that our big men might get in foul trouble this game. I didn't really see it coming that way, but he/she was certainly correct.


Another one of those frustrating "Why can't you do this more often?" Andre games, where we again see his
incredible shooting ability, which we probably won't see for another few games. If only he could be more
consistently good....

Personally, I find it more pleasant to simply enjoy these great performances when they happen. Why should him playing such a great game be a source of frustration?

I didn't say anything before the game because I didn't want to jinx it, but for some reason I had a strong feeling that Andre was going to light it up tonight. Glad I was right, and not frustrated at all.

[Kfanarmy]

Seriously think that was one of the worst officiated games I have seen in a very long time...thought both teams were playing hard and the battle was just a pleasure to watch, except for the officiating. I would guess I completely disagreed with half the calls that were made and thought the officiating team was inconsistent in the extreme...the play when ARs leg was rolled up was a rediculous no call, as was the play when his foot was stepped on and FSU got a run out. NCAA should be embarassed by that stuff. Mason, I think it was his second foul, was rung up essentially for bringing the ball up with both hands from his waste to his shoulders, feet didn't move, upper body didn't move, FSU player simply faked the official into a call. There were several moving screens on both sides, wild no call on FSU player sliding on the floor with the ball and essentially rolling on the ground with it while trying to pass it off...Sorry, I really don't see how that crew rises above the level of a high school officiating team. There are a couple of folks there who should probably not be officiating college Bball.

[CameronBlue]

Glad Teddy V called the game. The uneven officiating forced Duke to be more resilient and Duke must be prepared to make adjustments which is half the battle of "survive and advance" basketball. And we're apt to see Teddy V again in the tourney as he called the 2010 NC game. That worked out pretty well.

[DukeDevil]

Seriously think that was one of the worst officiated games I have seen in a very long time...

The one play that really bothered me was the trip on Austin as it seemed so obvious and out in the open, as well as occurring right in front of the ref. I think that it eventually balances out, and even if it doesn't, at the end of the day I think it said more about the team's ability to adjust and play despite foul problems. Mason and Miles were able to go quite an extended period in the second half without picking any up/fouling out, and I think that at the end of the day that's going to be extremely key for acc/ncaa tourney runs. Fouls will pile up at some point, and the ability of the guards to pick up the offensive slack was huge.

I'll be the first to admit I was as frustrated and uninterested in this team as I've ever been even 6 weeks ago, and they have just won me over. As they believe in themselves and build that confidence, and belief they can always win...it's really just spilled over to me as well.

Now let's take down the turkeys.

[ffward]

I really wish we would stop talking about the officiating because we sound like a bunch of mooU and cryalina fans when we do. The fact of the matter is that every official in every sport is a human and they are going to make mistakes. In MLB half of the called strikes are balls and half of the called balls are strikes (this is evident with the new technology used by the broadcasting companies that use computer technology to show exactly where the ball crosses the plate). In the NFL and college football there have been dozens of cases where the on-field official AND the replay official got it wrong even after reviewing the play in slow motion, “super slow-motion”, and from 10 different angles. Heck, it is a well known fact that holding occurs on both the offensive and defensive line on every single play in every single game of football, but the officials only call a small percentage of them. Additionally, everyone knows that both college and NBA officials “rarely” blow the whistle in the waning seconds of a game. Even in tennis the chair umpire has over-ruled the “electronic eye” on numerous occasions. Unless we want our football, basketball, tennis, baseball, lacrosse, field hockey, etc., etc., etc., to call their own penalties (like golf), we need to accept the fact that officials will call a game loose for 2 minutes, then call a game tight for another 2, them go back to calling it loose, then make calls based on the player’s “reputation”, then blow a couple of calls, and them miss a couple of calls, and then just completely guess at a couple of more. It is a fact of every sport, based on human nature (even when humans have to interpret slow-motion video) that there are going to be bad calls, and missed calls, and every fan that complains about it, especially after a victory, sound like a bunch of children. We all know that when a call comes down to 50/50 between Duke and the opposing team, we are going to take the side of Duke and the opposing fans are going to take the side of their team. Heck, we have all experienced the joy of having a smile on our face when our team, be it Duke Basketball or any other college or pro team, “got away with one”, and we never talk about those calls, so please let’s not talk about the ones we didn’t get also. Every good coach and player understands this, and they will all say that overcoming poor officiating is a part of the game, JUST LIKE TONIGHT !!!!! It is only when the fans complain do we look like a bunch of children (or mooU and cryalina fans) and I refuse to do that.

[porkpa]

I haven't been through the entire thread. Perhaps this has been brought up previously. Far be it from me to question Coach K. However here goes. With our three bigs in serious foul trouble, I kept wondering why we didn't just try a little zone, if for no other reason to see what sort of effect it might have. I know Coack K hates zone. I also know that he has albeit very rarely occasionally tried it. Just musing.

[moonpie23]

for some resson teddy reminds me of the marine corps sargent in Aliens....


this is one of the funniest posts from over on IC



tarheelnva2
All-American
3230 posts this site
Posted: Yesterday 9:43 PM
Re: Official I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. @ FSU Discussion/Prediction/Game Thead


-
I look at it this way, they wanted to beat us worse than they wanted to beat even I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. That's my story and I'll stick to it. The crowd was MUCH louder at our game, even at tip-off. Case closed.

[moonpie23]

24232424

[Channing]

well, we were certainly the beneficiaries of some questionable calls against UNC and, to a lesser degree, NC State. Sometimes you're the pigeon and sometimes you're the statue. Nevertheless, a great gutty performance to build a lead and hold it. That was some fantastic clutch shooting all game and, as many have said, Dawkins was on fire.

I noticed down the stretch, though, that Dawkins was on the bench with TT, Austin, and Seth in the game. Any reason? For defensive purposes?

[mgtr]

Several have made the point that Dawkins was "on" tonight, and of course we needed that. But I was noticing during the game that it seemed that on the shots that he made, he didn't have to dribble at all. On the shots that he didn't make, he took one or more dribbles. So, it would seem the plan is to get him ball in a position where he doean't have to dribble. Of course, Andre has to be ready to receive the ball and step into his shot, which was mostly the case tonight.

[MChambers]

I really wish we would stop talking about the officiating because we sound like a bunch of mooU and cryalina fans when we do. The fact of the matter is that every official in every sport is a human and they are going to make mistakes. In MLB half of the called strikes are balls and half of the called balls are strikes (this is evident with the new technology used by the broadcasting companies that use computer technology to show exactly where the ball crosses the plate). In the NFL and college football there have been dozens of cases where the on-field official AND the replay official got it wrong even after reviewing the play in slow motion, “super slow-motion”, and from 10 different angles. Heck, it is a well known fact that holding occurs on both the offensive and defensive line on every single play in every single game of football, but the officials only call a small percentage of them. Additionally, everyone knows that both college and NBA officials “rarely” blow the whistle in the waning seconds of a game. Even in tennis the chair umpire has over-ruled the “electronic eye” on numerous occasions. Unless we want our football, basketball, tennis, baseball, lacrosse, field hockey, etc., etc., etc., to call their own penalties (like golf), we need to accept the fact that officials will call a game loose for 2 minutes, then call a game tight for another 2, them go back to calling it loose, then make calls based on the player’s “reputation”, then blow a couple of calls, and them miss a couple of calls, and then just completely guess at a couple of more. It is a fact of every sport, based on human nature (even when humans have to interpret slow-motion video) that there are going to be bad calls, and missed calls, and every fan that complains about it, especially after a victory, sound like a bunch of children. We all know that when a call comes down to 50/50 between Duke and the opposing team, we are going to take the side of Duke and the opposing fans are going to take the side of their team. Heck, we have all experienced the joy of having a smile on our face when our team, be it Duke Basketball or any other college or pro team, “got away with one”, and we never talk about those calls, so please let’s not talk about the ones we didn’t get also. Every good coach and player understands this, and they will all say that overcoming poor officiating is a part of the game, JUST LIKE TONIGHT !!!!! It is only when the fans complain do we look like a bunch of children (or mooU and cryalina fans) and I refuse to do that.


I don't think you can evaluate refs by looking at individual plays. They blow calls for both sides, but they don't do it on purpose so sometimes it doesn't entirely even out.

My issue with the reffing tonight was it was somewhat inconsistent. When a game is as physical as this one was, if the officiating is inconsistent the players don't know how much contact is permissible and they can end up in foul trouble if they guess wrong. Tonight there were several plays that looked the same but were called differently, and I think that's something the refs should do better. But in my opinion there's just no point in complaining about a particular blown call (like the trip on Austin or James's uncalled goaltend, etc, etc), or saying the officials were terrible. It's a really tough job and frankly even tonight they got most of them right.

Both of you are absolutely right!

There's really no point in getting frustrated with the refereeing. Referees are human and they have a tough job. In my entire life (I'm 54 and have seen a lot of sporting events), I've only seen one game in which the referee did not miss a single call. (It was a recreational soccer game with a bunch of seventh grade boys. The referee was the coordinator of referees for the league.)

Try refereeing a game yourself some time and you'll learn to appreciate more what referees do. It's a ridiculously hard thing to do, even in relatively easy sports. Basketball has to be one of the hardest.

If you want to understand more about the mindset of referees, I recommend that you read part of a book that came out a year or two ago, called Scorecasting. It had a good chapter or two on the biases of referees, particularly in the NBA and major-league baseball.

Having said all this, I still get frustrated watching the games.

[AsiaMinor]

Several have made the point that Dawkins was "on" tonight, and of course we needed that. But I was noticing during the game that it seemed that on the shots that he made, he didn't have to dribble at all. On the shots that he didn't make, he took one or more dribbles. So, it would seem the plan is to get him ball in a position where he doean't have to dribble. Of course, Andre has to be ready to receive the ball and step into his shot, which was mostly the case tonight.

I'd like to see some stats to prove what I think I see - and that is, in some games Andre just doesn't get
the ball often enough to have a great shooting night. Seems like (and maybe I only think this because
you men know more than I so often) some people playing PG don't pass to him when he's over in his
spot open open open.

[OldPhiKap]

If you're not kidding me I'm talking about when Ryan was inbounding towards the end of 2nd half under basket and the fsu defender ran outside the line and between Ryan and Tyler before/just as the ball was inbounded. Seriously. I've never seen it before.

I think the rule is that if you are guarding the inbounder, it is a technical if you reach across and touch the inbounder. You also have to stay in-bounds. I recall the play you're describing (I think) and the guy who went out of bounds was chasing after someone else. Refs must not have thought it was an attempt to guard the inbounder.

Perhaps all of this is wrong, though -- someone will no doubt correct me if it is.

[diveonthefloor]

It's a really tough job and frankly even tonight they got most of them right.

Agreed. But I sure wish "most" meant 99.9% rather than 62%.:cool:

[arnie]

The depth on this year's team is phenomenal. Two starters with 41 minutes between them score 1 point each, and yet we win a tough game on the road. Doubt that's happened very often. The ability to withstand foul trouble and ineffective play with "reserves" is huge.

[RockyMtDevil]

For the last 30 years, we've grown accustomed to winning these type games, especially hard fought, on the road tests where it seems Duke just wills itself to victory. That comes from the top. Yes, we seem to constantly have guys that possess K's same tenacity, but he is the staple.

One of the great character traits of K's coaching that was on display last night was the trust he has in his players and their freedom to push past their ceiling because of the environment he creates. Andre is able to come in and just go "Bootsy" because he knows K isn't going to yank him if he misses his first 2. Andre has ice in his veins because he knows K has his back, and I love that...I don't know that I've ever seen a duke player shoot out of fear. We take confidant shots.

A second trait on display last night was K's ability to adjust to the season situation or game situation, minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. Our bigs got in foul trouble and he is able to adjust the game plan and just go bombs away with Kelly, Austin, Dre and to a limited sense Seth.

He's just the absolute best and we are lucky to even be fans who can appreciate his greatness...

[moonpie23]

because K has been dabbling in hip-hop beat making and remixing, i thought it only appropriate that i comment on his coaching...

his use of the plums, kelly and josh has been brilliant.......during games, i question some of the substitutions at critical times and then later look back to see the sheer genius of the moves.....

then i go back to hip-hop and teaching drummers how to keep time..... :cool:

[superdave]

I'd like to see some stats to prove what I think I see - and that is, in some games Andre just doesn't get
the ball often enough to have a great shooting night. Seems like (and maybe I only think this because
you men know more than I so often) some people playing PG don't pass to him when he's over in his
spot open open open.

I think the main issue with Andre is how focused he is at working hard to get open. Opponents know he can shoot and will not leave him open, so he has to use screens and work really hard to get free. Some games he does, some games he seems disinterested. Well, deferential is probably a better word than disinterested. But he does not work consistently hard each game, all game to get open. That's the issue in my opinion.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

As for our dear Teddy Valentine, he is probably my least favorite referee around. He seems to be far more into the show than he is the game. I referee some high school basketball and have been told repeatedly to "sell your call" because it makes your job easier if you look like you know what you're doing. Valentine tries to sell every call. At times, it seems he makes a call just to see how well he can sell it to the crowd, coaches and players.

In the Kentucky-Miss St game, he called a foul on Mississippi State under their own basket on a rebound. He had danced over to the table demonstrably reporting the foul but never managed to see who was fouled. After reporting it, there was a discussion between the refs and players over who should be at the line Davis or Kidd-Gilchrist. Davis was at the line and the refs appeared happy with that until Dee Bost pointed out it should be Kidd-Gilchrist. If he hadn't been so concerned with his dramatic mechanics, he could have avoided the whole situation.

LOL....I am rewatching the game this morning and there is a similar moment with 8:41 left in the second half. It is fun slowing the game down on the DVR and looking at all of the different reactions taking place.

FSU has just closed it to 5, K has just burned a timeout and the building is going nuts. Curry drives to the hoop (and it is hard to know if there was a foul from the TV angle), when Teddy V swoops in from the baseline to call Curry for an offensive foul for appearing(?) to lower his shoulder into Peterson. Teddy does his patented 3 whistle call and then starts pumping his right arm up and down while strutting to the scorer's table. I am not sure if he was doing a judo chop or the tomahawk chop with his right arm, but he would have fit in at a Braves' game, the FSU student section, or at your local dojo. His jig over to the table isn't quite Frank Drebin behind homeplate in the Naked Gun, but it is from the same vein.

Teddy's little show has taken place right in front of the Duke bench, so the camera stays on the coaching staff. K leans back and mutters "****ing bullcrap" while Collins leans close to K, puts his hand over him mouth and says "makeup call", Wojo eyes the Teddy V shuffle like a passing motorist eyes a horrific car wreck and then looks away.

Now, while Teddy was doing the Valentine Shuffle and basking in the crowd's eruption, he forgets who the call was on. He prioritizes the act of the call and reports that "20" had committed the foul, however, Dawkins is on the bench. The game is held up for a second while the zebras convene and let the scorers' table know that it was "30", Curry, who had committed the foul.

Anyway, it was interesting to hear you talk about "selling the call". I never understood why some of these guys perform dance moves when they make a call, especially on offensive fouls. But selling the call could definitely provide a possible explanation on what the heck they are doing.

[devildeac]

LOL....I am rewatching the game this morning and there is a similar moment with 8:41 left in the second half. It is fun slowing the game down on the DVR and looking at all of the different reactions taking place.

FSU has just closed it to 5, K has just burned a timeout and the building is going nuts. Curry drives to the hoop (and it is hard to know if there was a foul from the TV angle), when Teddy V swoops in from the baseline to call Curry for an offensive foul for appearing(?) to lower his shoulder into Peterson. Teddy does his patented 3 whistle call and then starts pumping his right arm up and down while strutting to the scorer's table. I am not sure if he was doing a judo chop or the tomahawk chop with his right arm, but he would have fit in at a Braves' game, the FSU student section, or at your local dojo. His jig over to the table isn't quite Frank Drebin behind homeplate in the Naked Gun, but it is from the same vein.

Teddy's little show has taken place right in front of the Duke bench, so the camera stays on the coaching staff. K leans back and mutters "****ing bullcrap" while Collins leans close to K, puts his hand over him mouth and says "makeup call", Wojo eyes the Teddy V shuffle like a passing motorist eyes a horrific car wreck and then looks away.

Now, while Teddy was doing the Valentine Shuffle and basking in the crowd's eruption, he forgets who the call was on. He prioritizes the act of the call and reports that "20" had committed the foul, however, Dawkins is on the bench. The game is held up for a second while the zebras convene and let the scorers' table know that it was "30", Curry, who had committed the foul.

Anyway, it was interesting to hear you talk about "selling the call". I never understood why some of these guys perform dance moves when they make a call, especially on offensive fouls. But selling the call could definitely provide a possible explanation on what the heck they are doing.

Somewhere out there, Daniel Ewing and Shavlik Randolph have wide grins on their faces that they were not called for phantom fouls on that play. What a buffoon!

[Albert]

As I mentioned, having spent some time on IC enjoying their misery of a couple of weeks ago, I am mindful of them as an example of how not to be.

I think you can complain about refs and specific calls. When you get to unraveling the chain of causation enough to claim that, but for call x we would have won, or but for cumulative effects of calls a though x double prime, we would have won, then you are well into being one of that which you despise.

However, my problem was with when the worst of the calls took place. It sure felt to me in real time that, when Duke got some separation and was plus or minus 10 points ahead, those were the points where the refs stepped in to manipulate the momentum of the game. It helps that James' continuation call was one of those that they replayed on SportsCenter. It should be required viewing for all aspiring referees as to what continuation isn't.

[COYS]

Sports illustrated has a nice write-up of the game (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_staples/02/23/duke.fsu/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a14&eref=sihp) that goes far beyond the live by the three, die by the three narrative that IC, Vitale, and the rest of the sports world was talking about. Basically, it talks about how the vast majority of Duke's threes came off of penetration by Austin or Seth followed by kickouts . . . i.e. high quality shots from the arc that were created by good ball movement/screens/dribble penetration. There was absolutely no similarity between Duke's use of the three point shot and . . . say Kentucky's use of the three point shot in 2010 in the tourney against WVU when they clanked a bajillion threes against Huggy's zone after standing around on the perimeter for 35 seconds. Last night, our guards and bigs did an excellent job creating high quality open shots for our three point shooters. The national media has gone to great lengths to talk about how important it is to get "easy" buckets. Well, open three's from Seth, Ryan, and Andre are some seriously valuable "easy" buckets. As long as our three pointers come from the type of execution we had last night, I'm totally fine with us taking 27 per game.

[rsvman]

I think the rule is that if you are guarding the inbounder, it is a technical if you reach across and touch the inbounder. You also have to stay in-bounds. I recall the play you're describing (I think) and the guy who went out of bounds was chasing after someone else. Refs must not have thought it was an attempt to guard the inbounder.

Perhaps all of this is wrong, though -- someone will no doubt correct me if it is.

You don't have to touch the inbounder to breach the rule; there is an invisible plane that extends from the baseline upwards to infinity. The defender is not supposed to be allowed to cross that plane with any part of his body.

[MCFinARL]

I think the main issue with Andre is how focused he is at working hard to get open. Opponents know he can shoot and will not leave him open, so he has to use screens and work really hard to get free. Some games he does, some games he seems disinterested. Well, deferential is probably a better word than disinterested. But he does not work consistently hard each game, all game to get open. That's the issue in my opinion.

I think your change of wording is important, as I don't think we have seen a "disinterested" Andre for a long time--over the last several games he has looked continually engaged, trying to play effectively on both ends of the court (if not always totally succeeding), and talking to his teammates. But in some games he does seem to defer more to Austin, Seth or others on offense while in others he seems to work harder to get open. That being said, there have also been some times, as the poster you responded to suggested, when he has been wide open and even calling for the ball but his teammates don't pass to him. That may just fall under the heading of "stuff happens" but it is worth considering the possibility that Andre's "now you see him now you don't" offensive statistics may result partly from his teammates' play as well as his own.

While I'm on this subject, Austin Rivers said something after the game last night that I thought was interesting--Andre's value comes not only from his own shooting but from his ability to keep defenses honest (those weren't Austin's exact words, but that's pretty much what he meant). If they have to guard him, that makes more opportunities for Austin, and for Seth and others. In some games where we don't see Andre scoring a lot it, he seems pretty well covered most of the time. If he is fully occupying a defender, maybe that is the role he needs to play in that sequence no matter how hard he is trying to get open on that particular play.

[rsvman]

I think the main issue with Andre is how focused he is at working hard to get open. Opponents know he can shoot and will not leave him open, so he has to use screens and work really hard to get free. Some games he does, some games he seems disinterested. Well, deferential is probably a better word than disinterested. But he does not work consistently hard each game, all game to get open. That's the issue in my opinion.

[11th grade English vocabulary rant] Distinterested means unbiased. If you are a criminal you definitely want to get a disinterested judge. Uninterested means not interested. [/11th grade English vocabulary rant]

[Teton Jack]

History has shown that one of the worst things a team can do is peak too soon. Has FSU peaked too soon and started a decline for the remainder of the year? I think so. They are talented and capable, but do they have time and the ability to regroup and be a factor in ACC tournament or NCAA tournament time? Unlikely.

[roywhite]

Sports illustrated has a nice write-up of the game (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_staples/02/23/duke.fsu/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a14&eref=sihp) that goes far beyond the live by the three, die by the three narrative that IC, Vitale, and the rest of the sports world was talking about. Basically, it talks about how the vast majority of Duke's threes came off of penetration by Austin or Seth followed by kickouts . . . i.e. high quality shots from the arc that were created by good ball movement/screens/dribble penetration. There was absolutely no similarity between Duke's use of the three point shot and . . . say Kentucky's use of the three point shot in 2010 in the tourney against WVU when they clanked a bajillion threes against Huggy's zone after standing around on the perimeter for 35 seconds. Last night, our guards and bigs did an excellent job creating high quality open shots for our three point shooters. The national media has gone to great lengths to talk about how important it is to get "easy" buckets. Well, open three's from Seth, Ryan, and Andre are some seriously valuable "easy" buckets. As long as our three pointers come from the type of execution we had last night, I'm totally fine with us taking 27 per game.

Exactly. And look at the 3-point shooters year to date:

Seth Curry 52-132 .394
Ryan Kelly 35-85 .412
Austin Rivers 51-126 .405
Andre Dawkins 65-158 .422

With sometimes 3 or even 4 of them playing at the same time along with the above mentioned ball movement.....very hard to defend.

[dyedwab]

. Basically, it talks about how the vast majority of Duke's threes came off of penetration by Austin or Seth followed by kickouts . . . i.e. high quality shots from the arc that were created by good ball movement/screens/dribble penetration. Last night, our guards and bigs did an excellent job creating high quality open shots for our three point shooters. The national media has gone to great lengths to talk about how important it is to get "easy" buckets. Well, open three's from Seth, Ryan, and Andre are some seriously valuable "easy" buckets. As long as our three pointers come from the type of execution we had last night, I'm totally fine with us taking 27 per game.

Credit for growth in his game to Austin here. A number of times, he drove the lane, and instead of forcing up shots in the face of tough defense, he passed out to perimeter for a better look. Almost more important then the fact that he passed was that he clearly knew where his teammates were going to be to receive the pass. He had a plan that he executed on the way to the basket that gave him multiple options. He wasn't as good at that at the beginning of the year.

[WakeDevil]

You don't have to touch the inbounder to breach the rule; there is an invisible plane that extends from the baseline upwards to infinity. The defender is not supposed to be allowed to cross that plane with any part of his body.

Touching the player inbounding the ball is an intentional foul. Touching the ball is a technical. You also may not reach across the line to deflect the ball after it has left the player's hands. These are high school rules, but he NCAA ones probably are the same. Don't care to look them up.

I'm glad I am not the only one who knows the difference between disinterested and uninterested. Speaking of the misplacement of "only," that is a grammar rant for another day.

[oldnavy]

Loved the effort last night, great game for us.

As far as the refs, I was yelling at the TV most of the night, but hey I do that EVERY GAME..... Go Duke!!

I had the sound off, cannot bare Dickie V any longer.... he is beyond bad, he is actually more distracting than helpful in letting you know what is going on at the game.... talks about EVERYTHING, but the game at hand.

[OldPhiKap]

History has shown that one of the worst things a team can do is peak too soon. Has FSU peaked too soon and started a decline for the remainder of the year? I think so. They are talented and capable, but do they have time and the ability to regroup and be a factor in ACC tournament or NCAA tournament time? Unlikely.

FSU has a lot of experience and is a tough lot. I don't see them fading. I also think the best part about getting a #1 seed in the ACC tourney is that #2 probably has to play FSU in the semi's.

This is a very good Seminole team.

[jjasper0729]

FSU has a lot of experience and is a tough lot. I don't see them fading. I also think the best part about getting a #1 seed in the ACC tourney is that #2 probably has to play FSU in the semi's.

This is a very good Seminole team.

This is a very salient point. It would be so much better for us as far as wear and tear through the three days if we were on the opposite side of the bracket from fsu.

[COYS]

FSU has a lot of experience and is a tough lot. I don't see them fading. I also think the best part about getting a #1 seed in the ACC tourney is that #2 probably has to play FSU in the semi's.

This is a very good Seminole team.

Agree. Their length and athleticism on the defensive end alone is enough for them to contend with some of the best teams in the country. On the other hand, their offense is inconsistent enough that they can lose to some of the worst (like BC . . . note that I REFUSE to put Princeton in that category ;)). However, they've shown they can play really well in their biggest games. They lost last night, but there was no lack of effort on their part. If they are engaged defensively and are able to hit some three's, they'll collect enough offensive boards and get enough put-backs, dunks, and oops to upset higher seeds. With their experience, I think FSU is a darkhorse to make a surprising tourney run.

[MCFinARL]

Touching the player inbounding the ball is an intentional foul. Touching the ball is a technical. You also may not reach across the line to deflect the ball after it has left the player's hands. These are high school rules, but he NCAA ones probably are the same. Don't care to look them up.

I'm glad I am not the only one who knows the difference between disinterested and uninterested. Speaking of the misplacement of "only," that is a grammar rant for another day.

As a college composition instructor, I can tell you that you are one of a dying breed, alas. The (very valuable) distinction between "disinterested" and "uninterested" is going the way of the dinosaur, or of the equally valuable distinction between "reticent" and "reluctant." Now that these errors are common in published writing, it's probably not surprising that many people no longer realize the differences exist. And superdave, please accept my apologies if this feels like piling on; language changes, and there are always going to be a few of us diehards who try to hold on to the old ways.....

[MCFinARL]

Loved the effort last night, great game for us.

As far as the refs, I was yelling at the TV most of the night, but hey I do that EVERY GAME..... Go Duke!!

I had the sound off, cannot bare Dickie V any longer.... he is beyond bad, he is actually more distracting than helpful in letting you know what is going on at the game.... talks about EVERYTHING, but the game at hand.

My "favorite" Dickie V. moment was when he announced that UNC would be cheering for Florida State. Eventually the other guy had to point out that, actually, it was in UNC's interest for Duke to win this game, odd though that might seem.

[COYS]

As a college composition instructor, I can tell you that you are one of a dying breed, alas. The (very valuable) distinction between "disinterested" and "uninterested" is going the way of the dinosaur, or of the equally valuable distinction between "reticent" and "reluctant." Now that these errors are common in published writing, it's probably not surprising that many people no longer realize the differences exist.

I submit "healthy" and "healthful" to this list. While it is important to eat healthy foods because eating fruits and vegetables that are in poor health would probably not be good for one's stomach, most people should really concentrate on eating healthful foods that will provide good nourishment.

[roywhite]

As a college composition instructor, I can tell you that you are one of a dying breed, alas. The (very valuable) distinction between "disinterested" and "uninterested" is going the way of the dinosaur, or of the equally valuable distinction between "reticent" and "reluctant." Now that these errors are common in published writing, it's probably not surprising that many people no longer realize the differences exist.

Carry on, sir. One of my peeves is the incorrect usage of "fewer" and "less", but that too seems to be a lost cause.

[OldPhiKap]

As a college composition instructor, I can tell you that you are one of a dying breed, alas. The (very valuable) distinction between "disinterested" and "uninterested" is going the way of the dinosaur, or of the equally valuable distinction between "reticent" and "reluctant." Now that these errors are common in published writing, it's probably not surprising that many people no longer realize the differences exist.

Irregardless . . . .



(that one really bugs me)

[snowdenscold]

Even in tennis the chair umpire has over-ruled the “electronic eye” on numerous occasions.

A little off-topic, but I do not believe this is the case. An umpire overrules the linesmen, and/or may even deny a challenge request if it comes too late (see: controversy in Nalbandian-Isner match at 2012 Australian Open). But overruling Hawkeye? Haven't ever seen a case of that.

[MCFinARL]

Carry on, sir. One of my peeves is the incorrect usage of "fewer" and "less", but that too seems to be a lost cause.


Irregardless . . . .



(that one really bugs me)

Fewer and less, irregardless--now you are just setting my teeth on edge. Don't get me started--lie and lay (how many times lately have I seen something like "he was laying on the ground"--laying what? an egg?), flaunt and flout, imply and infer, my head is spinning. A current favorite of my students that drives me nuts is "based off of" instead of "based on." If you think about that one, it doesn't actually make sense.

[Kedsy]

History has shown that one of the worst things a team can do is peak too soon. Has FSU peaked too soon and started a decline for the remainder of the year? I think so. They are talented and capable, but do they have time and the ability to regroup and be a factor in ACC tournament or NCAA tournament time? Unlikely.

I really hope you're joking. One game, in which they played very well by the way, dooms their "post-season prospects"? Really? When they beat us a few weeks ago, did that "put a fork in" our post-season prospects? It was one game. The only single game that dooms anybody's post-season prospects is when a team loses in the NCAA tournament.


While I'm on this subject, Austin Rivers said something after the game last night that I thought was interesting--Andre's value comes not only from his own shooting but from his ability to keep defenses honest (those weren't Austin's exact words, but that's pretty much what he meant). If they have to guard him, that makes more opportunities for Austin, and for Seth and others. In some games where we don't see Andre scoring a lot it, he seems pretty well covered most of the time. If he is fully occupying a defender, maybe that is the role he needs to play in that sequence no matter how hard he is trying to get open on that particular play.

Yes! I have been saying this for some time. Andre is incredibly valuable on offense, even when he doesn't take a single shot. This is why, even when Andre was slumping earlier in the season, it was a bad call when people hoped Quinn and Michael would take Andre's minutes.


My "favorite" Dickie V. moment was when he announced that UNC would be cheering for Florida State. Eventually the other guy had to point out that, actually, it was in UNC's interest for Duke to win this game, odd though that might seem.

Well, in this case, I think Vitale was right. Whether or not it was in UNC's interests, you know they were cheering for FSU. It's not even a close case.

[killerleft]

Worst call of all was at the end of the first half when the defender jumped on top of Seth's back. At the very least that should have been a non-shooting foul. Just because the half is almost over doesn't mean you don't blow the whistle.

As for Seth's travel, I didn't really see a good replay. I thought he lost control of the ball before batting it over to Andre. At any rate, he was fouled about five times by the "trapping" defense prior to that so I figured it should balance it out.

Sorry, but that play at the half was totally all Seth jumping way to his left to try and get underneath the guy, twirl, and shoot. I watched it on replay and could only laugh at Seth's naughtiness.

[Reilly]

I'm eager to see the toughness displayed last night carry forward. Others may feel the same way I do, but say they are anxious about it.

[MCFinARL]

Well, in this case, I think Vitale was right. Whether or not it was in UNC's interests, you know they were cheering for FSU. It's not even a close case.

This may suggest something about the basic intelligence of UNC folks, ;) but you are probably right. I have no doubt the UNC fans were cheering for FSU, just thought the team might see the value in a Duke win, since that would put their shot at a regular season ACC championship in their own hands--but maybe even there the rivalry runs too deep.

[OldPhiKap]

This may suggest something about the basic intelligence of UNC folks, ;) but you are probably right. I have no doubt the UNC fans were cheering for FSU, just thought the team might see the value in a Duke win, since that would put their shot at a regular season ACC championship in their own hands--but maybe even there the rivalry runs too deep.

Over the years, there have been many times where a UNC win would help Duke in the standings, etc. I still cannot bring myself to root for them under any circumstance.


Whether that is a flaw, or a virtue, I will leave to each of you.

[Kedsy]

I have no doubt the UNC fans were cheering for FSU, just thought the team might see the value in a Duke win, since that would put their shot at a regular season ACC championship in their own hands--but maybe even there the rivalry runs too deep.

In their own hands, yes, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Don't forget that FSU has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ dangerous in-state rival Miami before their regular season is over. And UNC has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ arch-rival Duke, in a game where anything can happen. Duke has two lower-tier teams and then a rivalry game at home on senior night. Even from a logical standpoint, you could make a decent argument that a UNC fan should have wanted Duke to get hung with an L last night.

[calltheobvious]

The blue-tinted lenses seem to have been of exceptional strength last night.

Sure, there were some missed plays in the game, and Valentine was even responsible for a few. But anyone who thinks he wasn't the strongest official on the floor last night is letting their distaste for him or his style get in the way of accurate analysis. He'd be the first to admit that he shouldn't have counted that bucket late in the game. That wasn't his only decision of the game (it wasn't even his only mistake), but that play and a widespread distaste for his mannerisms have been allowed to completely overshadow some superb refereeing on his part. Each of his partners swallowed the whistle in some big moments yesterday--on plays that were demanding of a whistle--and every time Valentine was even remotely positioned to do so, he came to the rescue.

Just to provide one example of the bias present in this thread: Valentine has been derided for being so concerned with showing off following Seth's offensive foul, that he failed to correctly report the number (30), and instead reported Andre's (20). The mistake was easily caught when folks realized Andre was on the bench. But why is anyone so sure that the mistake was Valentine's? Occasionally, scorers make mistakes. Is it conceivable that Valentine gave an accurate signal that was misread at the table? Or that the scorer read the signal correctly and simply marked it incorrectly in the scorebook? Or that the scoreboard operator misread the signal from Valentine or misheard the oral confirmation from the scorer? Maybe the PA announcer got it wrong for some reason? Each of these things happens every once in a while, and the fact that such possibilities would never even be considered says more about the observer than about Valentine and what he did or didn't do there.

"Valentine should be fired."

Sigh.

[MCFinARL]

In their own hands, yes, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Don't forget that FSU has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ dangerous in-state rival Miami before their regular season is over. And UNC has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ arch-rival Duke, in a game where anything can happen. Duke has two lower-tier teams and then a rivalry game at home on senior night. Even from a logical standpoint, you could make a decent argument that a UNC fan should have wanted Duke to get hung with an L last night.

Yes, I see your point. While the result might be that FSU would win the regular season championship (or maybe share the championship with UNC, assuming both won out--no given for either team--but get the first seed in the ACC tournament), it might be better for UNC, looking ahead to NCAA seeding, etc., for Duke to lose.

[BluDvlsN1]

I wanted to send kudos to BluDvlsN1 for correctly suggesting that our big men might get in foul trouble this game. I didn't really see it coming that way, but he/she was certainly correct.

Kedsy, thank you,but,wholly unnecessary.
What I was originally referring to, was the ill advised fouls that ultimately limit the ability to work on the oppositions bigs in the paint when necessary. (short version)

What I saw last night, didn't qualify as that, (I'm about to rewatch the game),I thought MP1&2 and Ryan played great. I won't attempt to put a "label" on what caused the early foul concerns, but it doesn't appear to come under the heading of "ill advised", more likely "beyond player control".

I really enjoyed what I saw last night, across the board, the team always answered and that bodes well going forward.
I had posted in previous weeks that while Seth had been struggling a bit from outside, he had been getting to the hoop more via cuts, passes, and off the dribble, personally, I think it was/is a blessing in disquise.

Here is why, Seth, is now as apt to go inside rather than just pull up with a 3, it makes him much more versatile and complements Austin and Andre. He's a pure shooter, with a shooter's mentality (and this is good), because his shot has been coming back recently and last night 3 was key, I really believe the we will see his 3 evidence itself positively down the stretch run.

IMHO

[UrinalCake]

Far be it from me to question Coach K. However here goes. With our three bigs in serious foul trouble, I kept wondering why we didn't just try a little zone, if for no other reason to see what sort of effect it might have. I know Coack K hates zone. I also know that he has albeit very rarely occasionally tried it. Just musing.

I don't know that going zone would help when all of our bigs are in foul trouble. If just one guy is in foul trouble then a zone might be a way to protect him, but even then you still have to guard your guy once he gets the ball.

I think our strategy was to pressure the guards and prevent the bigs from getting the ball, which we did a phenomenal job of. The announcers kept asking why FSU was choosing not to go inside, but our defense had a lot to do with it. And I think playing zone would make those interior passes easier.

[UrinalCake]

What I saw last night, didn't qualify as that, (I'm about to rewatch the game),I thought MP1&2 and Ryan played great. I won't attempt to put a "label" on what caused the early foul concerns, but it doesn't appear to come under the heading of "ill advised", more likely "beyond player control".

Mason's first foul was dumb, reaching out and grabbing the guard after releasing on a hedge. What's amazing is that he almost did the exact same thing on the next possession, but thankfully didn't get called for it that time. It would have given him two fouls in like the first three minutes of the game.

Other than those plays, I agree that the bigs avoided the silly fouls.

[killerleft]

I submit "healthy" and "healthful" to this list. While it is important to eat healthy foods because eating fruits and vegetables that are in poor health would probably not be good for one's stomach, most people should really concentrate on eating healthful foods that will provide good nourishment.

Isn't being redundant redundance even when done on porpoise? If so, there's a department that fixes that.;)

[77devil]

Teddy V was absolutely brutal tonight. He does love the spotlight, but I can't for the life of me understand why. He is wrong so often, not sure why you would want to point it out so blatantly!

Often wrong, but never in doubt. All in all a poorly officiated game. Plenty of calls that went Duke's way such as Seth's travel, but most of the blatant ones, such as the step on foot trip and rolling Austin out of bounds, were right in front of the official.

[lotusland]

Often wrong, but never in doubt. All in all a poorly officiated game. Plenty of calls that went Duke's way such as Seth's travel, but most of the blatant ones, such as the step on foot trip and rolling Austin out of bounds, were right in front of the official.

Read any teams message board after a game and you will learn that they just got hosed by the refs. I'm sure the FSU board -if they even have one for hoops - was replete with examples.

Our fans do it too but the only difference is that, in their minds, they are right. Oh wait, that really isn't a difference...

Oh yeah and Duke is also the team that annoucers are really biased against but everyone else is just paranoid;)

[Saratoga2]

One of the keys of the game, in my opinion, was how well we would perform in the turnover battle. My man to watch was Seth Curry, who had 6 turnovers in the previous game and had to do better at FSU for us to win. We lost the TO battle 11 to 8, however, Seth only had one of those 11 and he handled the ball a lot throughout the game. With that kind of ball security against a top notch and aggressive defensive team, Seth becomes a force on the offensive end, since he can drive and dish or score and has a pull up game for mid range scoring along with the ability to hit the three.

[dukeofcalabash]

Over the years, there have been many times where a UNC win would help Duke in the standings, etc. I still cannot bring myself to root for them under any circumstance.


Whether that is a flaw, or a virtue, I will leave to each of you.

Well, it may be flaw for you, but I've always considered it one of my virtues to root against UNC no matter what! :D

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, if I'm a UNC fan I root for FSU to win yesterday and then lose one of their remaining games. That's more likely than Duke losing before playing UNC (not saying Duke is definitely going to beat VT and Wake, but it's a safer bet that FSU will lose one).

[throatybeard]

(Sorry for the horrible grammar there Throaty)

I'm as far from membership in the Prescriptive Grammar Police as is humanly possible.

[Dev11]

Read any teams message board after a game and you will learn that they just got hosed by the refs. I'm sure the FSU board -if they even have one for hoops - was replete with examples.

I just read the postgame thread on Tomahawk Nation (disclaimer: I have no idea what the 'best' FSU blog is but TN is their SB Nation site, which is a good go-to for a credible blog for pretty much every team other than Duke, as they don't link the DBR to SBN, which confuses me but this parenthetical has gone on long enough...) and there are about 3 posts about officiating, all relating to Curry's travel, which admittedly was one of the biggest blown calls I've ever seen. >95% of the thread basically says that FSU has no chance when teams bomb it like we did from three and credit to Duke for being on point for this game.

There are also a few mentions of how many of the fouls the Plumlees accumulated were not induced by 'anything FSU did' (re: the FSU fans subliminally realize we got hosed by the refs).

Conclusion: we REALLY got hosed by the refs, since the other team's fans aren't even complaining about the refs!

Edit: Just did a CTRL+F on their in-game thread (>500 comments), which revealed 5 instances of complaining about the refs. Two instances were then shot down by other posters. New conclusion: these guys don't know how to complain like basketball fans.

[Greg_Newton]

It's interesting how obvious it is when Seth is on vs. off his game; it's like you can literally tell whether he's having a good game by just watching one play.

When he gets low with the ball and shifts his weight forward, looking for a crease to dart through, he's actually an extremely effective penetrator and creator. When he's got his head up and weight back, guarding the ball, he's almost a liability. When he launches the ball early in his release with a high release angle (most important part), it seems like it goes in 90% of the time. When he guides the ball a little more and doesn't put that big arc on it, it's just bad. I'm not sure if I can remember a player for whom the outcome of his shots were more obvious the minute he released them.

[mapei]

Just tried CTRL + F to see what the poster above was talking about. Very handy, now that I know.

I'm tempted to go into a rant about the demise of the subjunctive mood but, if I were to do that, throaty might do a rant of his own. I'm no match for him on a DBR thread.

Do carry on.

[TNDukeFan]

I just read the postgame thread on Tomahawk Nation...
I'm curious as to whether anything was said on that board about Austin's being booed after his injury.