Karl Hess tosses Gugliotta and Corchiani from stands at State game - in Raleigh

[Dukehky]

Karl Hess just tossed Tom Gugliotta. What is this guys major malfunction? How is he still allowed to be a ref?

[Bob Green]

Who was the second former player tossed out by Karl Hess?

[devil84]

Chris Corchiani was the other.

[Bob Green]

Chris Corchiani was the other.

Thanks!

Richard Howell was very demonstrative when called for his 5th foul. I'm a bit surprised he wasn't T'd up.

[davekay1971]

Hess is clearly a man with issues. It seems like every game is about Hess proving that, as Hans Gruber said, "Make no mistake...we are in charge."

[Acymetric]

Wait, Hess tossed out former players? For what?

[Dukehky]

I'm tired of seeing coaches and officials take control of the stands. If it doesn't affect the play of the game (throwing stuff on the court) then they shouldn't get involved. If security sees something and deems it worthy of an ejection, let them handle it. Undoubtedly Hess heard something that he didn't like, probably about himself. But he's a ref, get over it. Same with Roy. Obviously this is a biased opinion currently because I loath Roy and Hess, but this is just getting ridiculous. Much worse things are said up in the bleeds, my comments during the game, aren't exactly nice.

Tom Gugliotta for the T-wolves was always my go to guy in NBA Live 95.

[alteran]

Wait, Hess tossed out former players? For what?

Hess has lost it. Neither of those guys look anything like Daniel Ewing.

[mkline09]

I've always said an official shouldn't be known. If I know you as an offical then you aren't doing your job. Hess, like Teddy Valentine, seem at times to be more interested in themselve making a spectacle and being seen than calling a game. Being a ref is a tough and at times thankless job. I get that but you've got to have a thick skin and if you are so preoccupied by what fans are saying to you how can you call an affective game?

[PackMan97]

When the refs really are out to get you....you aren't paranoid.

[alteran]

...if you are so preoccupied by what fans are saying to you how can you call an affective game?

I know affective is a typo, but it's dead on. Affective is exactly the kind of gam Hess calls.

[mkline09]

I know affective is a typo, but it's dead on. Affective is exactly the kind of gam Hess calls.

Ha yeah I guess he had an affect on the game but wasn't particular effective. As a result of my verb confusion Karl Hess has ejected me from the DBR boards.

[devildeac]

Hess has lost it. Neither of those guys look anything like Daniel Ewing.

I'm blind.
Not deaf.
I'm still the #$%&ing ref.

:rolleyes:

[devildeac]

Ha yeah I guess he had an affect on the game but wasn't particular effective. As a result of my verb confusion Karl Hess has ejected me from the DBR boards.

Only Dick Pooparo can eject you from 30 miles away.

(Well, I know Bob Green and Newton_14 and they could eject you from 30 miles away. Maybe even farther (much farther) in Bob's case;). )

[roywhite]

I'm tired of seeing coaches and officials take control of the stands. If it doesn't affect the play of the game (throwing stuff on the court) then they shouldn't get involved. If security sees something and deems it worthy of an ejection, let them handle it. Undoubtedly Hess heard something that he didn't like, probably about himself. But he's a ref, get over it. Same with Roy. Obviously this is a biased opinion currently because I loath Roy and Hess, but this is just getting ridiculous. Much worse things are said up in the bleeds, my comments during the game, aren't exactly nice.

Tom Gugliotta for the T-wolves was always my go to guy in NBA Live 95.

Maybe Hess thought they were rowdy Presbyterian fans?

[TNDukeFan]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/ncaa/02/18/nc.state.gugliotta.corchiani.tossed.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a12&eref=sihp

[buddy]

This should really light up the State boards, after the statistics on fouls that were posted previously. One would think that foul differential would tend to cluster around the mean. When one team consistently has a better foul differential than all the others, it is not surprising that some people would ask questions. And when the day after those stats are posted, two ACC legends are tossed from the stands by one of those officials, one could reasonably question whether there is some underlying problem. And when the conference commissioner is a graduate of the school that "gets all the calls" there is even more reason for question.

I have long thought that Hess is a tool. If as is reported there was no profanity, and the league takes no action, it will lend credence to reports that there is some favoritism in the officiating. And no league can long tolerate that.

[fitimi1]

Just wondering out loud. How long would it take to clear out all the Crazies?

Seriously, he has now brought attention to himself and as a result, I suspect that even games outside the ACC will result in lots and lots of verbal taunts being directed his way.

[Olympic Fan]

The NC State fans have it in their minds that they are always getting screwed by the refs. They see every game that way. The Duke loss was all about the refs -- even though State was called for just three more fouls than Duke. They are going nuts during the FSU loss even though they end up shooting 10 more free throws than the Noles. But point that out and they say, well against Duke they got our starters in foul trouble (never mind that they play a seven man rotation) and even with the favorable FT stats against FSU, I'm sure the average Wolfpack reaction is that they should have shot 20 more free throws than the Noles, not 10.

All that said, it's ridiculous that Hess would have two fans who weren't throwing things and weren't threatening anybody ejected. It's right up there with Roy having the Presbyterian fan tossed in Chapel Hill. RABBIT EARS!!!!

Still, I hate that it will reinforce the myth that the refs and ACC are out to get the Pack

BRW: Awesome finish in the meaningless Georgia Tech at Clemson game -- Udofia puts GT up 2 in OT afer an amazing shot with 5.3 seconds left, but the Hokies win on a buzzer-beaating 3.

[hudlow]

Hess never does any games at Comcast Center....?

[Olympic Fan]

Take this for what it's worth, but a fan who claimed to be sitting two rows behind Gugliotta and Corchiani reported at Pack Pride:

I know there is already multiple threads talking about this, but I didn't want the actual facts to get lost in them.

I was sitting two rows behind Chris & Tom. If you watch the video I am in the second row of SWPC members. I heard everything, including when another ref called out a student near me for saying "Quit looking at the dance team." The cop came over and just laughed at the comment and said, you are fine you can stay.

Chris and Tom were harmlessly complaining about the ref. No profanity. They had two very young daughters with them and I doubt they would ever cuss with them there. I never saw anything other than just average complaining.

Karl walked over and pointed at them and said, "Get them out of here." He then found a cop and said, "I want you to get them out of here. Those two right there."

If you listen closely to the video you can hear him say the 'those two' comment.

And that was pretty much that. I was right there. I saw it first-hand thats exactly what happened almost word for word.

I was in shock. Someone next to me asked, "why are you so upset? who are those guys?" I responded by pointing to the rafters at their two jerseys. Debbie Yow needs to seriously do something about this.

And from another post:

From a friend's twitter who was sitting on the front row:

"The guys in front of me got kicked out of the game for saying "that's a bad call ref". How can you get kicked out for that. "

"The dudes little daughters had to sit by themselves the rest of the game."

Again, these are message board posts ... don't take them as gospel. Still, it will be interesting to see the feedback on this.

[buddy]

I can't think of a better way for the ACC to fan State's paranoia than to have Karl Hess throw these guys out of the arena. Tuesday night should be very interesting. What is the over/under on a riot when Kerlina gets all the calls?

And does Debbie Yow have a conversation with John Clougherty and John Swofford?

[MulletMan]

I find it extremely difficult to believe that nothing was said to Hess. I know that we said some pretty ridiculous stuff to him in particular, which I know he heard, because you'd get that look from him, and he never booted any of us. I'm gonna go out on alimb and guess that someone in the vicinity was dropping f bombs. Wether or not it was Googs an Corchinni, that may be up for debate.

[MChambers]

BRW: Awesome finish in the meaningless Georgia Tech at Clemson game -- Udofia puts GT up 2 in OT afer an amazing shot with 5.3 seconds left, but the Hokies win on a buzzer-beaating 3.
How could the Hokies win a game between GT and Clemson? Seems like maybe the refs should look at the monitor to see which teams were playing.

[Bob Green]

Here is some video:

http://deadspin.com/5886265/former-nba-star-tom-gugliotta-ejected-from-game-he-was-watching-from-the-stands

[Faison1]

Amazing footage, Bob! There's gotta be some fallout from that move.

Googs and Corchiani are 2 of my top 10 favorite State Players. I can't believe Hess would pull that, especially at State.

From the looks of it, I bet both those guys would've wanted to punch him in the face.

Whether or not it was justified, I think Hess will have some explaining to do.

[cameroncrazy3104]

It is amazing to me how the ACC has two of the worst refs I have ever seen, Karl Hess and Jamie Luckie
This compares the two: http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/compare?r1=karl-hess&r1_season=2011&r2=jamie-luckie&r2_season=2011&chart_attr=blowout#chart

They both average about 35 fouls called a game, but interesting enough they do not seem to favor the home or away team when it comes to foul difference.

Something else that is interesting, in close games Hess calls a lot more fouls than he does in blowouts. As compared to Luckie who calls about 35 no matter what the score.

[Native]

Hess has lost it. Neither of those guys look anything like Daniel Ewing.

Well, thanks. Now there's Coke all over my computer screen.

[calltheobvious]

It is amazing to me how the ACC has two of the worst refs I have ever seen, Karl Hess and Jamie Luckie
This compares the two: http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/compare?r1=karl-hess&r1_season=2011&r2=jamie-luckie&r2_season=2011&chart_attr=blowout#chart

They both average about 35 fouls called a game, but interesting enough they do not seem to favor the home or away team when it comes to foul difference.

Something else that is interesting, in close games Hess calls a lot more fouls than he does in blowouts. As compared to Luckie who calls about 35 no matter what the score.

There's already plenty of live ammo lying around for you to fire at Hess. No need to dig up innocuous-but-useless stats, and then to twist them into something objectively false. Neither Hess nor Luckie calls 35 fouls a game. Honestly. Thirty-five is the average number of fouls--total--called in their respective games.

[SMO]

When decorating your Christmas tree, he tangles up all the hooks
He'll sneak in to the library and scribble in all the books

He spoils the milk
He stops all the clocks
He uses his whistle to poke holes in your socks

[roywhite]

State A.D. Debbie Yow is irate, and demands an explanation from the ACC office (http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/28620/ad-yow-hopping-mad-about-ejections-of-former-wolfpack-stars/).


“Throughout this afternoon and evening, I have been seeking clarification from the ACC office regarding the reason for the ejection of two fans today during our men’s basketball game against Florida State,” Yow said in a tersely worded statement. “I have spoken to commissioner John Swofford and Karl Hicks, associate commissioner for Basketball Operations, regarding our concerns and our need for clarification as to why this occurred. We expect fair treatment of our fans at State athletic events.

“Although ACC rules prohibit coaches, players and administrators from publicly taking exception to officiating, the ACC Office has agreed to issue a statement regarding the ejections and the circumstances surrounding them later tonight. We will not have further comment regarding this situation until we have had a chance to review the statement issued by the league.

[Reilly]

Hess stats (guess this is legit; never seen this site) ...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/karl-hess

[mpholt]

Here's the statement...

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021812aaa.html

[SMO]

Hess stats (guess this is legit; never seen this site) ...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/karl-hess

Wow! Click on the "Schedule" tab and you'll see how many games he's working. That may be the source of some of his issues, in which case they are self-inflicted.

[Duvall]

Here's the statement...

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021812aaa.html

Is a statement a statement if it doesn't state anything?

[MulletMan]

Is a statement a statement if it doesn't state anything?

You just blew my mind. But in this case, apparently the answer to your question is, "yes?"

Commence exploding heads in Raleigh.

[El_Diablo]

Here's the statement...

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021812aaa.html

Yow's response is going to be priceless. I cannot wait.

[buddy]

Well, the ACC just told Debbie Yow and NC State to **** off. That should go over well.

[wavedukefan70s]

I almost got tossed last year at a highschool football game.i said nothing but get the rule book and read it.they had made some off the wall call and had a 4 minute discussion about it.dude 4 rows in front of me was cussing.i got blamed.lucky for me i was sitting with the head of security's brother so i didnt have to leave.its easy to get tossed for someone else s shenanigans.i am not defending hess.stuff does happen though.

[Reilly]

Well, the statement does say some things:

- the ref must judge the behavior as extreme or excessive; and, if so,
- the ref is to solicit home game management and not security.

So ...

- Karl Hess has horrible judgment, as nobody would find Gugliotta or Corchiani's behavior extreme or excessive; and
- Karl Hess did not follow proper procedures, so will be getting a reminder as to what those procedures are.

All in all, I'd say Hess has had better days at the office, but then I remember it's Karl Hess, so maybe not.

[OldPhiKap]

Karl would have given a statement himself, but he had to run down to the orphanage quickly after the game so he could kick some kids before evicting the elderly from their homes.

Is it too much to ask that he be given the State-UNC game?

[bwl5]

From what I have read and saw on the replay of the incident, Hess is clearly out of line.

I personally remember saying, ummm, yelling much worse things during my time at Cameron
sitting behind Dukes bench in the early 80's. Specifically, I told Lenny Wirtz to,......; wait,
this is a family forum so I won't repeat it. Lets just say that those who remember Lenny can
probably fill in the blanks. :cool:

[OldPhiKap]

From what I have read and saw on the replay of the incident, Hess is clearly out of line.

I personally remember saying, ummm, yelling much worse things during my time at Cameron
sitting behind Dukes bench in the early 80's. Specifically, I told Lenny Wirtz to,......; wait,
this is a family forum so I won't repeat it. Lets just say that those who remember Lenny can
probably fill in the blanks. :cool:

I think I was next to you, joining in.

Uncle Terry would not have approved.

[MulletMan]

Well, the statement does say some things:

- Karl Hess has horrible judgment, as nobody would find Gugliotta or Corchiani's behavior extreme or excessive; and


You were there? You know what they did or said?

[buddy]

You were there? You know what they did or said?

And the ACC is not saying what Gugliotta and/or Corchiani did either. What is interesting is that the ACC will not state a reason for the ejection. I expect that the league knows that Hess screwed up but will not admit it, other than to say he didn't follow procedures. But it is interesting that they did not specify what those two individuals did to merit ejection from the arena. It sure looks like they are there with daughters. I do not know them, and did not witness their behavior. But as a father, I find it hard to believe they would have suggested that Hess perform an anatomically impossible procedure on himself with their daughters there. I expect the ACC will try to skate on this, but these are not just two slubs who got tanked up and were out of line. I think there will have to be more.

[Philawolf]

And the ACC is not saying what Gugliotta and/or Corchiani did either. What is interesting is that the ACC will not state a reason for the ejection. I expect that the league knows that Hess screwed up but will not admit it, other than to say he didn't follow procedures. But it is interesting that they did not specify what those two individuals did to merit ejection from the arena. It sure looks like they are there with daughters. I do not know them, and did not witness their behavior. But as a father, I find it hard to believe they would have suggested that Hess perform an anatomically impossible procedure on himself with their daughters there. I expect the ACC will try to skate on this, but these are not just two slubs who got tanked up and were out of line. I think there will have to be more.

Corch stated via his twitter account that neither he nor Googs used any foul language, but did criticize Hess for calling an inconsistent game.

[Reilly]

You were there? You know what they did or said?

No, I was not there. No, I don't know. You're right; I went too far in saying nobody would find their behavior excessive or extreme, given I don't have first hand knowledge. I should have used more careful language. I should have said

- they have denied excessive or extreme behavior;
- the video clip (the end of the saga) does not appear to show excessive or extreme behavior;
- Yow seems perplexed;
- as do the internet reports of others who purport to have been there; and
- the ACC announcement does not detail the particulars of any excessive or extreme behavior.

[wavedukefan70s]

From cbs sports:
10:18 p.m.: ACC supervisor of officials, John Clougherty, released a statement:

"Under Rule 10, when circumstances warrant, an official has the authority to request home game management to eject fans when the behavior, in the officials' judgement, is extreme or excessive. It's unfortunate in this instance that ACC protocol of communicating directly with the home game management was not followed, and instead, a building security officer was solicited. We will re-communicate this policy with all officials to ensure proper protocol is followed."

[throatybeard]

ACC supervisor of officials, John Clougherty

Man, there's the Peter Principle just, like, exploding in your face.

[KenTankerous]

I am so sick of officials being so full of themselves that they act as if they are part of the action. I long for the day when technology makes them obsolete.

Last night, I went to opening night for the Derby City Roller Girls (http://www.derbycityrollergirls.com/) and at one point, 7, yes SEVEN, of the ten skaters were in the penalty box! We didn't come to watch the zebras skate backwards, blow their whistles and point. We came to watch muscular, real sized women in fishnets and lipstick on wheels beat up on each other!

Let 'em roll REF! Jeez, I hope the ACC comes down appropriately and swiftly on Hess. He is obviously all up in his own head.

[OldPhiKap]

I am so sick of officials being so full of themselves that they act as if they are part of the action. I long for the day when technology makes them obsolete.

Last night, I went to opening night for the Derby City Roller Girls (http://www.derbycityrollergirls.com/) and at one point, 7, yes SEVEN, of the ten skaters were in the penalty box! We didn't come to watch the zebras skate backwards, blow their whistles and point. We came to watch muscular, real sized women in fishnets and lipstick on wheels beat up on each other!

Let 'em roll REF! Jeez, I hope the ACC comes down appropriately and swiftly on Hess. He is obviously all up in his own head.

That's darn funny right there.

[Bob Green]

Here is a nice article on the game and the incident:

http://www.indyweek.com/triangleoffense/archives/2012/02/19/what-a-hess-florida-state-seminoles-tame-nc-state-wolfpack-76-62

The Independent Weekly sports blog (Triangle Offense) provides excellent coverage of ACC basketball.

[alteran]

Man, there's the Peter Principle just, like, exploding in your face.

The Peter Principle implies that you were good at your previous job. That doesn't apply here.*

This is more like politial careers, where you can stink and just keep going up.

--alteran

* Unless, of course, that's what you mean by "exploding in your face" and I'm just being dense.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I think a lot of these issues are created because refs are allowing too much physical play, and this is an example.

I've railed on this before.
A foul is a foul is a foul. Call the ";/-!" fouls. They are not that hard to see. Hess or any other ref shouldn't inject themselves into "managing" the game. That's on the players by simply not fouling.

Let stuff go and games get out of control easily. Call a push, call a reach in hack and call the banging....the entire game. I hate games when you hear the refs "let 'em play".

If players don't adjust to not fouling, and wouldn't that be a novel approach, they will find the bench and we'll see who has quality depth. They would stop fouling out of necessity and the game would return to a fluid style that, for me, showcases the beauty of those big athletic guys play and away from the wrestling match the game has often become.

All that said...I agree Karl Hess should be sanctioned, (from the info I have), for basically a scratch some fans inflicted on his thin skin.

[rthomas]

Just for the record. I don't know if you guys saw the WVU - Syracuse game a week or so ago where the refs missed a very blatant goal tending call with a couple seconds left in regulation that would have allowed WVU to tie the game. Even Boeheim apologized for the bad no call after the game. Yep, that ref was Karl Hess. Possibly the worst ref in the game today.

[Spencer's Daddy]

I think I was next to you, joining in.

Uncle Terry would not have approved.

Lenny was the Wirtz.

[arnie]

Corch stated via his twitter account that neither he nor Googs used any foul language, but did criticize Hess for calling an inconsistent game.

I've been fortunate to get seats at State for Duke games within 15 rows of the court. The language from the donors is atrocious and it seems to start as soon as Duke walks on the court. I haven't been to a game at Maryland, but can compare the State environment to games at Clemson, Chap Hill, WF and South Carolina - the adult language is far worse. I suspect Corchiani and Gugs don't even realize what they're yelling half the time - it just becomes mob mentality during the games. I think as long as they're second fiddle to Duke and UNC - this will continue.

None of what I've said excuses Hess's actions though - unless they did threaten him.

[moonpie23]

can you throw guys out who have jerseys in the rafters? can't they throw HESS out?


just sayin...

[-jk]

Lenny was the Wirtz.

Yes, but Paparo sucked. Or something like that.

-jk

[Dev11]

can you throw guys out who have jerseys in the rafters?

After halftime of the 82-50 game, I saw a security guard in Cameron make Christian Laettner throw out the Bud Light he brought into the gym from a reception they were having in one of the side hallways. That's basically the same thing, right?

[allenmurray]

I suspect Corchiani and Gugs don't even realize what they're yelling half the time - it just becomes mob mentality during the games.

I've certainly said things during a game I might not have said in other settings. But if my wife and young daughter were next to me it would cause me to self-edit. I assume the same is true for Corchiani and Gugs, so absent any evidence to the contrary, and any history of abusive behavior on thier part, I don't think we should assume they were being profane/racist/overly personal, etc.

[DoubleDuke Dad]

can you throw guys out who have jerseys in the rafters?

I'm only surprised that he didn't also make them remove the jerseys. :D

[Lord Ash]

Yes, but Paparo sucked. Or something like that.

-jk

Past tense? Tell me Dick retired?

[SilkyJ]

From what I have read and saw on the replay of the incident, Hess is clearly out of line.

I personally remember saying, ummm, yelling much worse things during my time at Cameron
sitting behind Dukes bench in the early 80's. Specifically, I told Lenny Wirtz to,......; wait,
this is a family forum so I won't repeat it. Lets just say that those who remember Lenny can
probably fill in the blanks. :cool:


I expect the ACC will try to skate on this, but these are not just two slubs who got tanked up and were out of line. I think there will have to be more.

That's what so surprising to me here, when I was a student I normally sat in the front row directly behind the scorer's table (its the "non-tv side" so everyone else would go to the otherside and it was very easy to get front row, dead center). I sat (stood) there probably 20-30 times and wouldn't dare repeat some of the things I said to the refs from the front row after 4-5 hours of waiting in line with my dear friend Busch Light. I was never thrown out. Maybe its b/c I was a student and so I was one of one-thousand saying basically the same things, but I imagine anything I said would have been 5-10x worse anything those guys said with their daughters next to them.

This reminds me a lot of the Joey Crawford incident a few years ago with Tim Duncan (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2840587). Crawford is considered a solid NBA ref and was suspended indefinitely, though he obviously returned and continues to do a solid job. Hess is not nearly the ref Crawford is, so will be interesting to see what happens. I'm sure it will depend on how big a stink Debbie & State make, but I assume it will be sizable. Really interested to watch this play out.

[weezie]

What a Hess (!!!)


I think Bob may have come up with the perfect chant to unite the Crazies and Crusties at the next Hess-ian game in Cameron.

Does anyone else just love it when Karl hitches up his trousers when he is being reviled by the crowd? It's so adorable! :mad:

[dalmatians98]

Here is a nice article on the game and the incident:

http://www.indyweek.com/triangleoffense/archives/2012/02/19/what-a-hess-florida-state-seminoles-tame-nc-state-wolfpack-76-62

The Independent Weekly sports blog (Triangle Offense) provides excellent coverage of ACC basketball.

Thank you for that link to a well written article. I love this, the penultimate paragaph:



Facing the grim duty of reporting the Wolfpack’s ineptness, journalists consumed the event like manna from writer’s heaven. While a referee perhaps outstepping his authority and running roughshod over a school’s sporting legends in the process is a worthwhile story, its salaciousness not only deflects attention from N.C. State’s woeful effort and chronic shortcomings, but it also feeds the impulse among fans and conspiracy theorists alike to arrogate excuses in lieu of confronting causes.

[elvis14]

I think a lot of these issues are created because refs are allowing too much physical play, and this is an example.

I've railed on this before.
A foul is a foul is a foul. Call the ";/-!" fouls. They are not that hard to see. Hess or any other ref shouldn't inject themselves into "managing" the game. That's on the players by simply not fouling.

Let stuff go and games get out of control easily. Call a push, call a reach in hack and call the banging....the entire game. I hate games when you hear the refs "let 'em play".

If players don't adjust to not fouling, and wouldn't that be a novel approach, they will find the bench and we'll see who has quality depth. They would stop fouling out of necessity and the game would return to a fluid style that, for me, showcases the beauty of those big athletic guys play and away from the wrestling match the game has often become.

All that said...I agree Karl Hess should be sanctioned, (from the info I have), for basically a scratch some fans inflicted on his thin skin.

Well said Wheat! I always translate "let 'em play" to "let 'em cheat". There was a time when letting a game be more physical always worked against Duke (or so it seemed to me) and I think K has adjusted over the years to be more physical. The NCAA tournament that we won in 2010 was incredibly physical. I loved winning, I would have preferred that we won 81-79 instead of 61-59. It has bothered me when people have said "they called the game evenly" and I'd reply with "they didn't call anything which allowed a lesser team to play even with a better team". We were usually the better team.

As for Gugs ad Corch, I'd love to know exactly what they said because it's pretty surprising to see them get singled out.

[allenmurray]

Thank you for that link to a well written article. I love this, the penultimate paragaph:

indyweek has the best basketball writers around. All of them are good, but Adam Sosbey is amazing.

[Bob Green]

I think Bob may have come up with the perfect chant to unite the Crazies and Crusties at the next Hess-ian game in Cameron.



I'd love to take credit, but "What a Hess..." is the title of the article I linked so credit has to go to author Neil Morris.

[weezie]

I wish The Playcaller would come back and give us his/her insights into yesterday's affair.

[diveonthefloor]

Lenny was the Wirtz.


Lenny was a decent ref in a meaningless game with no crowd and no drama.

But as soon as a game got spirited, or a crowd got loud, Lenny became a "cheerleader in stripes" for whichever team he was pulling for. It could have been the visitor or the home team.

[Rich]

Yes, but Paparo sucked. Or something like that.

-jk

For those of you too young to remember, the Dick Paparo cheer went "You s*ck, Dick", although we didn't necessarily pause at the comma. :rolleyes:

[diveonthefloor]

It is amazing to me how the ACC has two of the worst refs I have ever seen, Karl Hess and Jamie Luckie
This compares the two: http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/compare?r1=karl-hess&r1_season=2011&r2=jamie-luckie&r2_season=2011&chart_attr=blowout#chart

They both average about 35 fouls called a game, but interesting enough they do not seem to favor the home or away team when it comes to foul difference.

Something else that is interesting, in close games Hess calls a lot more fouls than he does in blowouts. As compared to Luckie who calls about 35 no matter what the score.

Never saw that website before! Great find!
Gotta agree, Hess and Luckie have got to be least consistent refs currently working. And what's worse, like the legendary Lenny Wirtz, they LIVE to make the marginal (or wrong) call to change a game. You seem to ALWAYS know when they are working a game, and that's not what a ref should do. The refs should be anonymous.

[-jk]

For those of you too young to remember, the Dick Paparo cheer went "You s*ck, Dick", although we didn't necessarily pause at the comma. :rolleyes:

Not quite. It started as "Dick, you suck!" Then the students sped it up. Rather predictably.

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

Lenny was a decent ref in a meaningless game with no crowd and no drama.

But as soon as a game got spirited, or a crowd got loud, Lenny became a "cheerleader in stripes" for whichever team he was pulling for. It could have been the visitor or the home team.

By "visitor or the home team," you mean Carolina, right?

'>)

[Johnboy]

Not quite. It started as "Dick, you suck!" Then the students sped it up. Rather predictably.

-jk

Then when Coach K objected, it became, "You suck, Richard!"

[nolan8or]

So who do you guys think is the worst ref right now...Hess or Valentine? I know every time I go to a game and see that Valentine is reffing I shudder. I went to the Duke Gonzaga game at MSG the year after Redick and Morrison left. There was a fan on the front row yelling at Valentine and as soon as Valentine was right in front of him he turned around and told him to shut up, as a play was happening right in front of him. I'll never forget how unprofessional he was.

[KenTankerous]

after halftime of the 82-50 game, i saw a security guard in cameron make christian laettner throw out the bud light he brought into the gym from a reception they were having in one of the side hallways. That's basically the same thing, right?

laettner shouldn't have even been in the arena, man! He stomped his previous beer can! He should have been ejected for that crap!

[BluDvlsN1]

So who do you guys think is the worst ref right now...Hess or Valentine? I know every time I go to a game and see that Valentine is reffing I shudder. I went to the Duke Gonzaga game at MSG the year after Redick and Morrison left. There was a fan on the front row yelling at Valentine and as soon as Valentine was right in front of him he turned around and told him to shut up, as a play was happening right in front of him. I'll never forget how unprofessional he was.

I really do try to stay away from the whole reffing discussions, it can be so frustrating!
i.e. I never said a word about the 2nd half no call on the Barnes charge , when he put his shoulder down and plowed! Just sayin I never brought it up!

But this is a much different story, Hess is there to call the game (impartialy), how can that happen when he is so self absorbed in himself and /or action off the court, when his focus is not on the game! Inefficiencies,possibly bias's tend to "inadvertently" creep in!

Personally, I always enjoyed people that didn't take themselves too seriously!
Hess doesn't qualify!

The ACC, must initiate some formal response!

[Olympic Fan]

I think you guys ought to give poor Karl Hess a break.

It's a well established fact that when you go blind, your other senses improve to compensate. For somebody as blind as Hess, his hearing must be superhuman. Corchiani and Gugliotta may not have shouted anything nasty, but I bet they were muttering under their breath.

Seriously, this incident makes me recall that Corchiani was the victim of one of the worst calls -- and most important bad calls at that -- in ACC history. in 1989, NC State was playing top seeded Georgetown in the Sweet 16. The Pack was rallying back and were on the verge of tying the game. Corchiani drove and dished inside to a teammate who converted the game-tying basket as he was fouled by Alonzo Morning -- his 5th foul. But, NO, Rick Hartzell comes racing in and overrules the ref who called the foul on Morning and says that Corchiani traveled before oaking the feed.

It was an absurd call and cost State the game (Duke took care of Georgetown two days later). The funny thing is that Hartzell as an ACC ref and remained one long enough to precipitate one of the great screwups in ACC history -- the mismanaged ice game at Virginia in 1997 (his mistakes worked in Duke's favor in that one). That one earned him a suspension from the ACC ... the Corchiani screwup only earned him infamy from a generation of ACC fans.

[uh_no]

Well, the statement does say some things:

- the ref must judge the behavior as extreme or excessive; and, if so,
- the ref is to solicit home game management and not security.

So ...

- Karl Hess has horrible judgment, as nobody would find Gugliotta or Corchiani's behavior extreme or excessive; and
- Karl Hess did not follow proper procedures, so will be getting a reminder as to what those procedures are.

All in all, I'd say Hess has had better days at the office, but then I remember it's Karl Hess, so maybe not.

I would imagine that the ACC office also had a discussion with Mr. Hess. It probably involved some stern words on not being a jack wagon and embarrassing the league.

[buddy]

At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.

[PackMan97]

Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

[killerleft]

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

No, it isn't. ;)

[Faison1]

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

And make no mistake....they are out to get you.

However, I was surprised that Googs and Corchiani didn't put up more of a fight when asked to leave.

It would be like asking Laettner to leave CIS....or Jordan to leave the Dean Dome. If I was them, I would've replied, "Are you kidding me? This is my house. You leave!"

[moonpie23]

unfortunately, i would have refused to leave......i would have made them carry me out...

[fitimi1]

At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.

I thought I heard him say, "... one of the best..." If I am correct, I bet some lawyer(s) will be calling other refs tomorrow to see if they wish to file suit for defamation of character.

[brumby041]

At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.

Yeah, I lost a lot of respect for Dykes after this as well.

Perhaps this will be enough to finally get Hess removed. As I've noted before, he's an embarrASSment to the referee's craft. I don't think that he's biased - notice that every school's fans have the same opinion of him. Surely the league can find someone else willing to make $500 an hour reffing games who would do a better, more consistent job.

[OldPhiKap]

Is there a published rotation of who will get what game, or is it only announced a few days in advance?

Have the ACC tourney refs been chosen/assigned?

[Verga3]

Is there a published rotation of who will get what game, or is it only announced a few days in advance?

Have the ACC tourney refs been chosen/assigned?

Not published, but regular season assignments are known well in advance, with alternates earmarked. It is my understanding that ACC Tourney ref candidates are graded throughout the season and final selections are made long enough before the Tourney so that travel schedules, etc. can be managed. There is sufficient time that exceptions/replacements can be made, but this is usually not a last minute deal. Performance grades are cumulatively understood, so that the refs have a sense that they will be working the ACC Tourney or be a candidate in another Conference. College refs are generally independent contractors, and not employees of the respective conferences.

I am not an expert here. If anyone has an additional or different understanding, please advise.

[dyedwab]

I think you guys ought to give poor Karl Hess a break.

It's a well established fact that when you go blind, your other senses improve to compensate. For somebody as blind as Hess, his hearing must be superhuman. Corchiani and Gugliotta may not have shouted anything nasty, but I bet they were muttering under their breath.

Seriously, this incident makes me recall that Corchiani was the victim of one of the worst calls -- and most important bad calls at that -- in ACC history. in 1989, NC State was playing top seeded Georgetown in the Sweet 16. The Pack was rallying back and were on the verge of tying the game. Corchiani drove and dished inside to a teammate who converted the game-tying basket as he was fouled by Alonzo Morning -- his 5th foul. But, NO, Rick Hartzell comes racing in and overrules the ref who called the foul on Morning and says that Corchiani traveled before oaking the feed.

It was an absurd call and cost State the game (Duke took care of Georgetown two days later). The funny thing is that Hartzell as an ACC ref and remained one long enough to precipitate one of the great screwups in ACC history -- the mismanaged ice game at Virginia in 1997 (his mistakes worked in Duke's favor in that one). That one earned him a suspension from the ACC ... the Corchiani screwup only earned him infamy from a generation of ACC fans.

This post brought back a long-dormant memory. I was at that game and remember just how bad that call was. (Though the memory of Phil dunking over Alonzo probably was taken up all my brain space from the '89 tournament).

Here's the thing - there is no question that Hess knew he was throwing out Corchiani and Gugliotta. He was sending a message. and since the ACC refuses to do anything about it, they are sending another message. That message is "We don't give 2 cents that our officials are becoming a punchline."

[uh_no]

This post brought back a long-dormant memory. I was at that game and remember just how bad that call was. (Though the memory of Phil dunking over Alonzo probably was taken up all my brain space from the '89 tournament).

Here's the thing - there is no question that Hess knew he was throwing out Corchiani and Gugliotta. He was sending a message. and since the ACC refuses to do anything about it, they are sending another message. That message is "We don't give 2 cents that our officials are becoming a punchline."

I don't think that's very fair. They made a statement, and we don't know if there were further reprimands between the conference and hess... like "get your act together and quit being a tugboat"....things that probably wouldn't be made public. The ACC publicly said he didn't follow protocol...He didn't screw up anything to do with the actual game.....so i don't think a suspension is warranted, if that's what your calling for. He called for two guys to be removed from the game. The league said he should have alerted stadium services or whomever instead of the cops. In the case of stadium people, at least they could make their case that they weren't being disruptive....more so than could one for cops....

I will say one thing, I highly doubt the league will stand for this if it becomes pattern with hess. I certainly hope the crazies give him everything they got next time he comes to cameron....

[weezie]

During our halftime tonight, Dykes said that Gugliotta and Corchiani statements towards Hess were "You're having a bad game. You're making too many mistakes."

Sounds again like a pretty good cheer for the Crazies. Although they'd NEVER get away with it.....:cool:

[Newton_14]

I think Hess was way out of line with this based on all the evidence we have to go on at this point. Given who the two fans were, unless they are 1. Drunk and obnoxious, 2. Using bad Profanity, or 3. Were making personal threats, then dude, you have to ignore it and move on. I just see that as Hess having a very bad case of Rabbit Ears and insecurity, along with a bad case of power trip.

I wish Hess and Jamie Luckey would be shown the door. Both are terrible imo.

[dyedwab]

I don't think that's very fair. They made a statement, and we don't know if there were further reprimands between the conference and hess... like "get your act together and quit being a tugboat"....things that probably wouldn't be made public. The ACC publicly said he didn't follow protocol...He didn't screw up anything to do with the actual game.....so i don't think a suspension is warranted, if that's what your calling for. He called for two guys to be removed from the game. The league said he should have alerted stadium services or whomever instead of the cops. In the case of stadium people, at least they could make their case that they weren't being disruptive....more so than could one for cops....

I will say one thing, I highly doubt the league will stand for this if it becomes pattern with hess. I certainly hope the crazies give him everything they got next time he comes to cameron....

I disagree - strongly. An official ejecting someone sitting in the stands from a game is an extreme event and requires, imho 1) a clear explanation from the official, and 2) a clear violation that justifies taking such a drastic measure. And if neither of those things are present, the the league needs to 1) discipline the official and 2) do it publicly.

This is NOT a blown call, or something on the court, or a missed judgement or a rule during the game. This is beyond that. It is so rare that it requires explanation, from both the officials and the league.

Basically, what I'm saying is that this isn't just another controversial call by an official. (and I have long believed that all leagues would be better off with some public statements/acknowlegements when they discipline their officials, but that's a topic for another discussion).

[uh_no]

I disagree - strongly. An official ejecting someone sitting in the stands from a game is an extreme event and requires, imho 1) a clear explanation from the official, and 2) a clear violation that justifies taking such a drastic measure. And if neither of those things are present, the the league needs to 1) discipline the official and 2) do it publicly.

This is NOT a blown call, or something on the court, or a missed judgement or a rule during the game. This is beyond that. It is so rare that it requires explanation, from both the officials and the league.

Basically, what I'm saying is that this isn't just another controversial call by an official. (and I have long believed that all leagues would be better off with some public statements/acknowlegements when they discipline their officials, but that's a topic for another discussion).

Why does it need to be public? When you screw up at your job, does your boss announce it to the media? At most the league owes an apology to the two guys for Hess' actions. There is no reason for that to be public.

The ACC owes the Athletics department at NCSU an explanation for why an ACC official treated a state fan the way he did, and they owe an apology to the fans. For all we know, those two things have been delivered. They owe you and the rest of the general public nothing. We have the benefit of hearing from fans around exactly what was said. All the league has is the word of Debbie Yow and Mr. Hess. If Karl said the fans were being disturbing, then what is the league to do? say "no they were not.... SUSPENSION for you"...of course not....If they made it public, he might even have a case for suing the league.

For all the leauge knows, all Karl did wrong was not go through the right channels to get the fan ejected. They can't prove that the fans didn't say something profane or what not. They conceded that Hess didn't take the correct action in the given situation. There's not much else they can do.

Now as I mentioned, its likely there was a conversation between the league and hess about what happened, and there was probably some sort of "don't be an idiot, karl" in that conversation. I don't think the league would be too pleased if this were a weekly occurrence.

[PackMan97]

However, I was surprised that Googs and Corchiani didn't put up more of a fight when asked to leave.

It would be like asking Laettner to leave CIS....or Jordan to leave the Dean Dome. If I was them, I would've replied, "Are you kidding me? This is my house. You leave!"

It's a lot different when two police offices ask you to leave. What were they supposed to do? Get physical? Get arrested? With both of their young daughters right there?

Both men have been around the block long enough to know much more noise would be made leaving quietly than causing a scene which would just prove Hess was correct and they were unruly.

[OldPhiKap]

Even if there was no cussing I can see how it happened from Karl's perspective. It's one thing to get heckled by a faceless crowd or some drunk student. Hess knows who these guys are, and they know Hess. It's a bit more personal. I would be curious if Hess had warned the two to pipe down.

Having said that, the best remedy is for Karl to take a little vacation and let the stress go. Take a week off (voluntarily or through ACC office scheduling), go to the beach, and then come back the same miserable SOB -- er, come back nice and rested for the home stretch.

[allenmurray]

Why does it need to be public? When you screw up at your job, does your boss announce it to the media? At most the league owes an apology to the two guys for Hess' actions. There is no reason for that to be public.

The ACC owes the Athletics department at NCSU an explanation for why an ACC official treated a state fan the way he did, and they owe an apology to the fans. For all we know, those two things have been delivered. They owe you and the rest of the general public nothing. We have the benefit of hearing from fans around exactly what was said. All the league has is the word of Debbie Yow and Mr. Hess. If Karl said the fans were being disturbing, then what is the league to do? say "no they were not.... SUSPENSION for you"...of course not....If they made it public, he might even have a case for suing the league.



Private insults and mistakes deserve private apologies. Public insults and mistakes deserve public apologies. The issue isn't whether he made his mistake while doing his job, but whether that mistake in judgement was done in a private setting or in a public one. If Hess did nothing wrong he has nothing to apologize for. But if an apology is in order it needs to be public. Not because we deserve it - we deserve nothing - but because the wrong he committed against the two was done in public (on a televised) stage. If he made an error in judgement he did so in a way as to embarass two people in the most public of forums. That is why the explanation and apology should also be done in the open. Not much good comes from things done in secret.

Again, if he did nothing wrong he should refuse to apologize at all. But if he did he should be honorable enough to admit it publicly since the offense took place in public. What our employer requires of us, and what we choose to do, can and should be two different things. We can always go beyond what is required - and when we do it speaks to our character.

[allenmurray]

Even if there was no cussing I can see how it happened from Karl's perspective. It's one thing to get heckled by a faceless crowd or some drunk student. Hess knows who these guys are, and they know Hess. It's a bit more personal. I would be curious if Hess had warned the two to pipe down.

Having said that, the best remedy is for Karl to take a little vacation and let the stress go. Take a week off (voluntarily or through ACC office scheduling), go to the beach, and then come back the same miserable SOB -- er, come back nice and rested for the home stretch.

Hess hasn't officiated a game in which thest two participated in over 10 years - if it is still "a bit too personal" I think Hess has way too long a memory of insults and too great an ability to hold a grudge to be effective in his job.

[roywhite]

During our halftime tonight, Dykes said that Gugliotta and Corchiani statements towards Hess were "You're having a bad game. You're making too many mistakes."
Sounds again like a pretty good cheer for the Crazies. Although they'd NEVER get away with it.....:cool:


Just a guess, but I suspect Hess heard them clearly, and realized they were probably right. Like a child who sticks his fingers in his ears when scolded or corrected, Hess threw a little tantrum and had his critics removed.

[bwl5]

Any discipline by the ACC toward Hess should, in my opinion, be made public. Even though Corch and Googs probably didnt pay for their seats, how would you have felt if
you had been the one thrown out after paying good money for a ticket.

I don't exactly remember what the seat license says on the back of the ticket, but it probably does not give the event holder carte blanche to throw a person out, and in this case
it wasn't the event holder but the ref. Probably Corch and Googs will not pursue it, but if it was me and I had paid good money for a ticket, Hess, Clougherty, Swofford, and others would
be raising their right hand in a public forum explaining themselves.

Wouldnt the resutling media circus be fun!

[Reilly]

Hess hasn't officiated a game in which thest two participated in over 10 years - if it is still "a bit too personal" I think Hess has way too long a memory of insults and too great an ability to hold a grudge to be effective in his job.

I didn't read OPK's "understanding-Karl-Hess" comment to mean he believed Hess had a longstanding beef with these players.

Rather, innocent, non-profane criticism from folks who know the game and played the game at a very high level probably burns Hess's ears more than a blistering, profane criticism from Joe Fan.

[Reilly]

... Like a child who sticks his fingers in his ears when scolded or corrected, Hess threw a little tantrum and had his critics removed.

Roy Williams is a child?

[OldPhiKap]

Hess hasn't officiated a game in which thest two participated in over 10 years - if it is still "a bit too personal" I think Hess has way too long a memory of insults and too great an ability to hold a grudge to be effective in his job.

I think Hess knows who they are, and it got under his skin more than you or I saying the exact same things.

And I agree that Hess is not being very effective in his job this year, to the extent "you shouldn't see the refs" is a big part of the job.

[moonpie23]

espn certainly made their apology public regarding the tasteless Jeremy Lin headline...

[SilkyJ]

So who do you guys think is the worst ref right now...Hess or Valentine? I know every time I go to a game and see that Valentine is reffing I shudder. I went to the Duke Gonzaga game at MSG the year after Redick and Morrison left. There was a fan on the front row yelling at Valentine and as soon as Valentine was right in front of him he turned around and told him to shut up, as a play was happening right in front of him. I'll never forget how unprofessional he was.

I'm not a particularly big Teddy V. fan, mostly b/c I think he's full of himself and has too much of an ego on the floor. That said, the NCAA thinks highly enough of him to have him refereeing late into March many years. I'm 99% sure he the '10 title game verse Butler, and thought he was pretty solid in that game, actually.

[Bob Green]

Al Featherston offers his perspective on the Wolfpack Dilemma:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=43618

Here's a couple of snippets:


Wow … it was a bad week to be an N.C. State fan.


The ACC’s initial response – criticizing Hess only for not following proper protocol – is ludicrously inadequate. Unless there is more evidence that we have not seen, he should be suspended for his bad judgment – if not retired.

[Slackerb]

http://www.theesportsblog.com/2012/02/accs-zero-tolerance-policy-on-disruptive-fan-behavior/

[aro24]

I have been saying for years that Hess is horrible. The fact that you can say his name and all ACC basketball fans knows him is the problem. We have a running joke in my house that for any game he is officiating how long it takes before he gets his name mentioned or has a video review.....usually takes less than 6-7 mins of game time.

But right now, after seeing him called "Rabbit Ears" by Corchiani and Googs......the only mental image I have is an arena full of students/fans wearing those headbands with rabbit ears on them.....hahahahahahahaa FYI....they are currently on sale in the $1 bins at your local Target store.......perfect timing with Easter approaching.

That would be a classic sight.

ARo24

[grossbus]

no ACC fan wants to see Hess officiating their game, because they know he will affect the game some how. might be in their favor, but equal chance it will not.

gots to go!!

[uh_no]

Private insults and mistakes deserve private apologies. Public insults and mistakes deserve public apologies. The issue isn't whether he made his mistake while doing his job, but whether that mistake in judgement was done in a private setting or in a public one. If Hess did nothing wrong he has nothing to apologize for. But if an apology is in order it needs to be public. Not because we deserve it - we deserve nothing - but because the wrong he committed against the two was done in public (on a televised) stage. If he made an error in judgement he did so in a way as to embarass two people in the most public of forums. That is why the explanation and apology should also be done in the open. Not much good comes from things done in secret.

Again, if he did nothing wrong he should refuse to apologize at all. But if he did he should be honorable enough to admit it publicly since the offense took place in public. What our employer requires of us, and what we choose to do, can and should be two different things. We can always go beyond what is required - and when we do it speaks to our character.

That's fair. I think it still boils down to the fact that it's hess' word against Debbie Yow. The book stipulates (as the ACC pointed out) that it is up to the judgement of the official if someone needs to be tossed. If Hess told the ACC "I thought they were being excessive" then the ACC has no choice but to trust him. The ACC league people weren't there. There weren't cameras picking up what the 2 guys said all game.

Reminds me of the line from a few good men, "It's not what I believe, but what I can prove." The league may have every reason to believe that Hess was out of line in tossing the guys, but they can't prove it. And reprimanding an employee/contractor for something you can't prove happened is just singing out for a lawsuit.

[PackMan97]

FWIW - The NC State Athletics Department on Sunday morning reached out to members of the 1989 ACC Regular Season Championship team (which includes Googs and Corch) and asked them if they could make to the UNC game to be accept the inaugural "Wolfpack Unlimited" award for refusing to accept the status quo.

Googs and Corch are both members of that team.

Say what you want, at least Debbie Yow understands there are limits to what she can say on the record but that there are also lots of other ways to express our feelings. No word on whether or not Karl Hess was invited.

[PSurprise]

It should be the refs' job to *not* be noticed. I think that's how you can say that a ref is good or not. It seems in this day that we have too many refs that want to be part of the action. And people now almost expect it-which shouldn't happen. I'm not sure how often refs get in-season reviews-if it's after every game or every few games or whatever, but I think the powers that be need to do a better job reminding referees that their job is to call the game as the rules dictate.

[hurleyfor3]

NCSU did not win the "1989 ACC Championship". That honor went to unc. Unfortunate, but true. I'm slightly embarassed the front page makes this mistake.

The Pack did win the 1989 ACC regular-season championship, however. Or, if you wish, they finished first during the regular season. But they were not ACC champions that year.

[oldnavy]

My thinking is that the ref is there to enforce the rules of the game, not to police the fans. That should be the job of the arena staff. Hess probably has set himself up for far worse badgering by fans now because now the fans know that:

a; he hears them and
b; they can get into his head....

He would have been much better off to have ignored Tom and Chris or at least quitely asked that a stadium official go and warn them to calm down. Hess is going to be hearing a lot more heckling now than he would have IMO. Just another example of a poor judgement call on his part.

[Lid]

If Hess told the ACC "I thought they were being excessive" then the ACC has no choice but to trust him. The ACC league people weren't there.
My understanding was that typically, there are ACC representatives at all games. Does anyone know if this is still true? I'm not familiar with where those seats would be in the RBC Center, so don't know if they would have been close enough to tell what was going on.

In any case, Googs is, in fact, "excessively" tall, so Hess has ironclad logic on his side.

[slower]

Here's a direct quote from Adam Gold's blog: "First, it should be known that Karl Hess is one of the best, if not the best, officials in the Atlantic Coast Conference -- if not all of college basketball."

Yeah, I know - it IS Adam Gold, after all.

Link: http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/10755429/

[riddle me this]

It should be the refs' job to *not* be noticed. I think that's how you can say that a ref is good or not. It seems in this day that we have too many refs that want to be part of the action. And people now almost expect it-which shouldn't happen. I'm not sure how often refs get in-season reviews-if it's after every game or every few games or whatever, but I think the powers that be need to do a better job reminding referees that their job is to call the game as the rules dictate.

Agreed. Hess is one of the few refs that I have specifically noticed making horrible calls in games and in general over reacting to situations on court. This only supports that fact that he is one of the worst refs in the game. And not just for Duke, he makes bad calls both ways. Horrible, horrible ref IMO.

[PackMan97]

NCSU did not win the "1989 ACC Championship". That honor went to unc. Unfortunate, but true. I'm slightly embarassed the front page makes this mistake.

Thanks for the correction.

[CoachJ10]

Here's a direct quote from Adam Gold's blog: "First, it should be known that Karl Hess is one of the best, if not the best, officials in the Atlantic Coast Conference -- if not all of college basketball."

Yeah, I know - it IS Adam Gold, after all.

Link: http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/10755429/

Was this an early April Fool's Day post by Adam Gold? Or is his blog now being posted in the Onion.

[OldPhiKap]

Here's a direct quote from Adam Gold's blog: "First, it should be known that Karl Hess is one of the best, if not the best, officials in the Atlantic Coast Conference -- if not all of college basketball."



"He keeps using that word. I do not believe it means what he thinks it means."

[WakeDevil]

For everyone taking a shot at this man's officiating, perhaps you can explain why he gets so many games. He's an independent contractor desired by several conferences. What he did at the RBC Center is another matter.

[OldPhiKap]

For everyone taking a shot at this man's officiating, perhaps you can explain why he gets so many games. He's an independent contractor desired by several conferences. What he did at the RBC Center is another matter.

Low bidder?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Was this an early April Fool's Day post by Adam Gold? Or is his blog now being posted in the Onion.

Maybe he was channeling his inner Tim Duncan? ;)

[pratt '04]

Here's a direct quote from Adam Gold's blog: "First, it should be known that Karl Hess is one of the best, if not the best, officials in the Atlantic Coast Conference -- if not all of college basketball."

Yeah, I know - it IS Adam Gold, after all.

Link: http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/10755429/

Clearly some other folks agree that he is a good official considering that Hess refereed the National Championship game just a few years ago:

box score (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=274000063)

[alteran]

Clearly some other folks agree that he is a good official considering that Hess refereed the National Championship game just a few years ago:

box score (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=274000063)

I agree, what one personally thinks of Hess' officiating is neither here nor there. But since he's such a seasoned and brilliant official, he should have absolutely no problem clearly and succinctly elucidating what actions required ejecting two fans (VIPs at that) from their seats.

There were plenty of witnesses around, Hess will be fortunate in that there will be plenty of people to corroborate what he claims required such drastic action.

[alteran]

Well, there you go.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/acc-admits-officials-mishandled-ejection-of-nc-state-legends-021912

[Matches]

Still unsatisfying. Protocol wasn't followed. Fine.

But here's the thing. These are two members of NC State royalty. They're not exempt from the rules. They can be thrown out if warranted.

But they better be doing something pretty darn bad to get the boot. Something much worse than it would take for, say, me to be shown the exit.

Hard to imagine anything they could have said to Hess - in the presence of their preteen daughters - that would justify booting them. Hess almost certainly overreacted, and basically kicked an already-irate fan base in the teeth.

[KenTankerous]

I do not care how good this ref is "in game", he bonered up bad enough that days later we are talking about a zebra's off court antics more than we are talking about Seth Curry from last night.

That's just wrong.

Hess is a mess, pick from the rest. There have got to be plenty of other good officials out there that can keep their panties out of a bunch long enough to call a game without going Ole Roy on homecourt legends.

As I said before, I long for the day when technology makes the zebras obsolete. I'm thinking it's in that truck that makes the yellow line that let's me know when I can get another beer...

[buddy]

Sanction would imply a fine, or losing games. I don't see that either happened, so I question that Hess was "sanctioned". And I would like to know what they did that warranted ejection. We know that chants of "**** Redick" are not enough to get fans ejected, and wearing shirts on the TV side that say "**** Duke" aren't enough to get one ejected. So what did they do that was worse than that?

[alteran]

Well, there you go.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/acc-admits-officials-mishandled-ejection-of-nc-state-legends-021912

Someone pointed out that I linked an obsolete article. Oops. Here's one that mentions that explicitly mentions that Hess was reprimanded.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/acc-reprimands-hess-for-ejections-at-nc-state

(http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/acc-reprimands-hess-for-ejections-at-nc-state)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'll have to admit the playcallers well written defense of potential reasons for Hess's actions has me backing off my knee jerk reaction to skewer him.

It still seems like an overreaction, but Hess was in charge and I see situations all the time where people with responsibilities are easy targets for actually making the hard decisions, ones that have issues everyone else rarely sees.
The front page article reminded me of that.

They only people never criticized are those who generally fail to do anything or accept some responsibility.

Playcaller has me giving him the benefit of the doubt ......this time.

[Reilly]

... Playcaller has me giving him the benefit of the doubt ......this time.

It's one thing to give Hess the benefit of the doubt on the need to remove G & C because they were interfering with the administration of the game. [Is there video of them going up to the scorer's table as Hess said? Others see that? Would be interesting to see what G & C did.]

That said, by not following procedure and by handling it the way he did (for which the conference publicly reprimanded him), Hess seemingly created a worse situation -- or at least a whole 'nother problem -- than the one he was trying to handle.

So, maybe he gets the benefit of the doubt that they needed to be removed, but he still handled it incorrectly.

[jv001]

W
I'll have to admit the playcallers well written defense of potential reasons for Hess's actions has me backing off my knee jerk reaction to skewer him.

It still seems like an overreaction, but Hess was in charge and I see situations all the time where people with responsibilities are easy targets for actually making the hard decisions, ones that have issues everyone else rarely sees.
The front page article reminded me of that.

They only people never criticized are those who generally fail to do anything or accept some responsibility.

Playcaller has me giving him the benefit of the doubt ......this time.

While I agree the playmaker's front page article was well written, I like Al's article on the Wolfpack's dilema more. Al hits the nail on the head regarding unc Johnny Swofford's role as ACC commissoner. He is a joke and should be removed from his position. GoDuke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'd agree he still handled it incorrectly, even if his reasons for his actions were sound.

He should be held accountable for those actions, but we should all look to see that there is fairness and balance applied as well.

[westwall]

From Brett Friedlander:

" Considering that Hess was a member of the crew that affected the outcome of a game in Syracuse earlier this season by missing an obvious goaltending call, he might be advised to pay more attention to the action on the court than in the stands from here on out."

[elvis14]

I'll have to admit the playcallers well written defense of potential reasons for Hess's actions has me backing off my knee jerk reaction to skewer him.

Interesting, it didn't have that effect on me at all. Although well written, the response does nothing to sway me in any way in Hess' favor. My current reaction is pretty much the same as my knee jerk reaction. Perhaps it would be different if it weren't an official who's known, not for being a good official, but for having a habit of trying to make the game about him.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Playcaller's take is an interesting perspective that none of the rest of us have. I can see the point he is getting at regarding potential distraction at/near the scorer's table. But there are two key questions unanswered:

1. If G&C were being distracting, was it in fact at/near the scorer's table and interfering with game operations?
2. If anything they were doing was (or was becoming) a distraction to the point of interfering with the game, were they warned and told of the potential consequences of continuing that behavior? If not, why not? (This is the part that bugs me and I think a lot of us... that it seems from afar like a pure power trip and why didn't he take steps to address the problem - if there was one - in a more appropriate and stepwise fashion?)

The only scenario I can see justifying this line of thinking is if C&G were in fact purposely interfering with game operations, had been warned, and then proceeded to ignore the warning. Doesn't sound like what happened, but I wasn't there and unfortunately we may never know unless reliable sources sitting nearby are able to shed additional light since the ACC is clearly not going to provide any further details/explanation.

[gw67]

I tend to agree with Elvis14. The playcaller's argument for a fellow referee did not convince me. The key in these instances is to let the folks who are "excessive" know the consequences if they continue their behaviour. Apparently, Corchiani was never told that his behaviour could lead to an ejection.

gw67

[moonpie23]

i love me some Playcaller.....however, that whole piece is chock full of a whole bunch of ifs, ands, buts, and maybes. Karl Hess KNOWS those guys....this wasn't the case of "some fan"....yes, he's supposed to ignore the jerseys, (in the rafters and on the players) but throwing them out was over the line.....how about a direct personal warning?


"hey guys, i've had enough, you're messing with the scorer's table, etc, blah blah blah, i'm gonna run you if you keep it up".....

enlightening us about the difficulty of officiating a game is noteworthy, but running them was a show of power......look at his body language as he summons the officer.....he's not worried about someone interfering with the game, he's pissed.

[83bluedevil]

If you do a follow-up to the article, can you please address the issue of fan ejection protocol? My understanding is that Hess did not attempt to control the situation by informing the State staff of the issue prior to ejection. To me, that's the issue here -- courtesy (as well as the rule book) should require an official to attempt to control the situation through home-team staff unless the behavior of the fan is threatening; I haven't seen any indication at all that either of the former players did anything the least bit threatening. Distracting? Maybe. But handling potential distraction should demand the courtesy of protocol.

[OldPhiKap]

I thought the Playcaller's piece was interesting and look forward to the next part. It does offer a different perspective.

Were they interfering with the scorer?
Were they previously warned?
Would the same thing have happened if it was Joe and Jane Wolfpack?
Did they act in a manner different than you would find at any other ACC stadium?

We can all speculate, but the folks who know have said all they plan to I expect.

Playcaller makes the point that if Hess was really a thin-skinned idiot, he would have done this on other occasions. Fair point. But the flip side is, if a yelling fan near the scorer's table is cause for ejection then half of Cameron would be empty by the end of any game. Or the Comcast Center, or LittleJohn.

[Reilly]

... Playcaller makes the point that if Hess was really a thin-skinned idiot, he would have done this on other occasions. ....

Depends on what the meaning of "this" is? Acted in a self-centered, arrogant fashion? Maybe he has.

Thrown out two retired jersey players from their home arena? You probably only get one go at that one.

[PackMan97]

I'll have to admit the playcallers well written defense of potential reasons for Hess's actions has me backing off my knee jerk reaction to skewer him.

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

I know in Reynolds (92-97) I was often the kid behind the scorers table. So close I could touch the officials if I wanted, I certainly gave the refs a hard time whenever I was displeased with them. I'm sure I was not as family friendly as Corch and Googs and certainly much louder and more obnoxious. I don't believe I ever even had a referee acknowledge my existence let alone try and throw me out.

There is no excuse for Hess' actions. None. I don't even know why the ACC bothered releasing anything they should have just bought some gasoline and poured it on the flames for all the good their "explinations" do.

[El_Diablo]

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

I have no idea about Littlejohn, but there has been a buffer zone in Cameron for years, even before the undergrads were moved from the bench side. Until a few years ago, these tickets were given out to non-students and to some student groups with clear strings attached (no raucous behavior). Now, the buffer zone is more like a buffer half. If you watch a Duke game on TV, you will see that the area directly behind the opposing bench is filled with that team's fans. Around that (and around the scorer's table) is a vast sea of seated fans covering almost the entire section. Students on that side are only in the back row and the extreme corners.

[davekay1971]

I tend to agree with PackMan on this one. I understand the Playcaller's well written article, and it makes perfect sense. But, you can only speculate whether his absolutely accurate statements about the job of a ref and a ref's concerns actually apply to the specific situation at RBC.

To date what he have is:
1) Consistent statements from bystanders that Gugs and Corchianni were not vulgar or excessive in any observable way
2) No video evidence to the contrary
3) A notoriously thin-skinned and prickly official who tossed them out
4) A statement from the ACC/Hess that they were tossed for interfering with the scorers and behaving in an inciting manner...with no supporting evidence

Going back to Roy having the Presbyterian fan tossed, we all took great pleasure in skewering Roy. To recall, what we had in that situation was:
1) Consistent statements from bystanders that the Blue Hose fan was not vulgar or excessive in any observable way
2) No video evidence to the contrary
3) A notoriously thin-skinned and prickly coach who had him tossed out
4) A statement from UNC/Roy that he was tossed for drunken/disorderly behavior...with no supporting evidence

I'm inclined to give Hess about as much benefit of the doubt as I gave Roy.

[DukeUsul]

Playcaller's take is an interesting perspective that none of the rest of us have. I can see the point he is getting at regarding potential distraction at/near the scorer's table. But there are two key questions unanswered:

1. If G&C were being distracting, was it in fact at/near the scorer's table and interfering with game operations?
2. If anything they were doing was (or was becoming) a distraction to the point of interfering with the game, were they warned and told of the potential consequences of continuing that behavior? If not, why not? (This is the part that bugs me and I think a lot of us... that it seems from afar like a pure power trip and why didn't he take steps to address the problem - if there was one - in a more appropriate and stepwise fashion?)

The only scenario I can see justifying this line of thinking is if C&G were in fact purposely interfering with game operations, had been warned, and then proceeded to ignore the warning. Doesn't sound like what happened, but I wasn't there and unfortunately we may never know unless reliable sources sitting nearby are able to shed additional light since the ACC is clearly not going to provide any further details/explanation.

Can't answer all your questions, but can answer one with the video. Yes it must have been at/near the scorer's table, considering they were seated immediately behind the game official at the scorer's table. Haven't seen any video out there that shows them being overbearing or threatening.

http://deadspin.com/5886265/former-nba-star-tom-gugliotta-ejected-from-game-he-was-watching-from-the-stands

[Duvall]

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

The last time I was able to snag a seat behind the scorer's table (2009 or so) I was specifically admonished by Duke game management not to address the officials in any way. Don't know if the referees even noticed what I had been saying, though.

[dyedwab]

...and as good a brief for Hess' case as can be made. It, however, left me unconvinced.

Here's what I focus on. An official throwing a fan, no matter who they are, out of a game, is a very unusual action. To me, taking that action requires a specific explanation that is more than a 2 days later opaque description of what happened.

And seriously, it wasn't two random fans he threw out, it was two recognizable State alums, both of whom have their jerseys in the rafters.

In my profession, people I work for tend to do a lot of things for which they are criticized very publicly. and they make those decisions anyway. But they know when making them, that the more public and controversial the decision,, the more it requires a good explanation.

Hess may have had good reasons for tossing out Corchiani and Gugliotta - though the evidence I have seen is not compelling. But the idea that this was just another decision, and requires no greater care or explanation is a fundmental failure, both of the official and of the league.

[Chicago 1995]

I thought the Playcaller's piece was interesting and look forward to the next part. It does offer a different perspective.

...

Playcaller makes the point that if Hess was really a thin-skinned idiot, he would have done this on other occasions. Fair point. But the flip side is, if a yelling fan near the scorer's table is cause for ejection then half of Cameron would be empty by the end of any game. Or the Comcast Center, or LittleJohn.

Counterpoint:

Hess hasn't done this on other occassions because his massive ego hadn't reached the points it now has thanks to the ACC (and other conferences) continuing to hire him and give him plum jobs despite his grandstanding, lack of consistency and generally poor work, and he didn't feel as though he could do something like this until now.

All of the coddling and enabling and the failure to nip his grandstanding in the bud led to this.

[dball]

"Rather than strictly making a power play, Hess may have taken the action he did based on what he thought was in the best interest of a fairly administered contest."


Might be more inclined to believe this if Hess, who playcaller argues has only the best interest of the game in mind, had followed the established protocol for fan removal. If his issue were really concern for the integrity of the game, he would not have grandstanded by delaying the game and having a police officer eject two NC State legends. The league response is a tepid tap on the wrist for Hess.

[Jderf]

Counterpoint:

Hess hasn't done this on other occassions because his massive ego hadn't reached the points it now has thanks to the ACC (and other conferences) continuing to hire him and give him plum jobs despite his grandstanding, lack of consistency and generally poor work, and he didn't feel as though he could do something like this until now.

All of the coddling and enabling and the failure to nip his grandstanding in the bud led to this.

Well, if this is the colossal error that is the culmination of a career filled to the brim with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work, it really isn't all that bad when you think about it. It didn't really affect the outcome of the game at all, and although he clearly didn't follow protocol, it is probable that Hess had his reasons. He obviously underestimated the timing of such a gaffe, in the wake of questionable officiating (from NC State's point of view) in a brutal loss, with a severely wounded and vulnerable fanbase. But it apparently wasn't even his worst call of the month, though I have to admit I haven't seen a video of the missed goaltending call. While the decision was certainly a bad one, executed improperly, and at a very bad moment for the fanbase--I feel like the reaction has largely been overblown. Now, the ACC's Orwellian response to the situation hasn't helped, fueling even more anger from the fans. But in the grand scheme of things, is this really that big of a deal?

[sagegrouse]

My two cents: the truth will never be known. Suppose Hess was on solid grounds for seeking some action against Corchiani and Gugliotta: they were not only riding the officials but interfering with the official scorer and timekeeper functions. No way the ACC is going to go after two legends of ACC basketball. Suppose there was no basis whatsoever in Hess's actions. Then it becomes a personnel matter (year, I know he's a contractor, but whatever), and there is no reason for the ACC to air out this particular bag of laundry. The Conference found a serious procedural discrepancy and used that for discipline and as the public release on l'affaire C&G. If there is more wrongdoing on Hess's part, we will see it a loss of assignments or a severing of ties to the ACC.

If C&G were out of line, what clearly should have happened was that Hess discuss the problem with the State official responsible for the game. That official would have said something to C&G, and the problem probably would be over (either because they piped down or changed their seats). That did not happen. If it was not resolved, Hess could then have asked State to move (or remove) the former players.

Anyway, change freely given.

sagegrouse

[Newton_14]

But it apparently wasn't even his worst call of the month, though I have to admit I haven't seen a video of the missed goaltending call.
I saw the video of the goaltend and it was blatant. An easy call in any circumstance in my view. How 3 ref's missed that is beyond me.


If C&G were out of line, what clearly should have happened was that Hess discuss the problem with the State official responsible for the game. That official would have said something to C&G, and the problem probably would be over (either because they piped down or changed their seats). That did not happen. If it was not resolved, Hess could then have asked State to move (or remove) the former players.

Anyway, change freely given.

sagegrouse

You nailed it here Sage. This is exactly what should have happened. Had this been taken, the ejections never happen.

[oldnavy]

Question. Can the scorer and officials at the scorer's table not ask management to remove someone if they are getting in the way of game manangement? One would have to assume based on Hess' response that someone from the table complained to Hess that Chris and Tom were interferring with their ability to do their jobs. If so, could they not have just as easily asked RBC security to have them removed??

I throw the BS flag on the explaination given by Hess. IMO they hacked him off because they were probably having a great time ragging him (face it, the game was no fun for them at that point) and Hess reacted by tossing them...

Unless an official(s) from the table comes forward to say that: Yes, Chris and Tom were interferring with their ability to manage and officiate the game and yes, they asked Hess to have them removed because they do not have the authority to do so, I say Bull Butter Hess - try again!

Besides, how else would Hess know that they were being a problem at the table unless the table complained to him??? For all he knows, when Chris and Tom approached the table, if they did, they could have been saying hello to an old friend....

[arnie]

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

I know in Reynolds (92-97) I was often the kid behind the scorers table. So close I could touch the officials if I wanted, I certainly gave the refs a hard time whenever I was displeased with them. I'm sure I was not as family friendly as Corch and Googs and certainly much louder and more obnoxious. I don't believe I ever even had a referee acknowledge my existence let alone try and throw me out.

There is no excuse for Hess' actions. None. I don't even know why the ACC bothered releasing anything they should have just bought some gasoline and poured it on the flames for all the good their "explinations" do.

There is a difference as I have been at State games. The grown men (30s to 80s) in the great seats play the part of a "victim". They begin screaming at the refs as soon as the game starts and really don't stop unless State is way ahead. I've been to other arenas (not Maryland, though) and haven't seen anything that ridiculous. Was also at RBC for a 1st round game (Duke against an overmatched team) and the older men behind me cussed and screamed at Shavlik the entire first half. I finally asked them if Shav had done something to them in life and if not, could they at least stop the cussing. This doesn't mean that Hess was right, but don't say Corch and Googs presented themselves well in front of their kids.

[weezie]

Well, now, surely one of you computer whiz people can photoshop a halo on our Karl?

Since the media tide seems to be turning towards his overall super spectacularness.
What are the chances we get him at the tarhole game 3/3?

[Chicago 1995]

Well, if this is the colossal error that is the culmination of a career filled to the brim with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work, it really isn't all that bad when you think about it. It didn't really affect the outcome of the game at all, and although he clearly didn't follow protocol, it is probable that Hess had his reasons. He obviously underestimated the timing of such a gaffe, in the wake of questionable officiating (from NC State's point of view) in a brutal loss, with a severely wounded and vulnerable fanbase. But it apparently wasn't even his worst call of the month, though I have to admit I haven't seen a video of the missed goaltending call. While the decision was certainly a bad one, executed improperly, and at a very bad moment for the fanbase--I feel like the reaction has largely been overblown. Now, the ACC's Orwellian response to the situation hasn't helped, fueling even more anger from the fans. But in the grand scheme of things, is this really that big of a deal?

I don't think it is the colossal error or the culmination of a career filled with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work. I merely think this is a symptom or an indication as to how overblown Hess's ego has become. It's not the error, but its a strong indication that he thinks he's above reproach, and that what he's been doing all these years, which vascilates between simply ruining otherwise watchable game and out and out effecting the outcome of games, is right.

The missed goaltend was attrocious, but hell, so too was the screw job he gave us in the 2004 ACC title game.

It's a wonder we all don't aspire to be officials. There's no accountability, it seems, and unlike most other professions, no correlation between the quality of your work and the success of your career.

[killerleft]

After reading this thread, the main thing I take away from it is this: the Duke fanbase hates the refs just like all the others we harp on, no more and no less.

Karl Hess may have screwed up the protocol, but I seriously doubt Corchianni and Gugliotta were innocent of wrongdoing. I just can't see Hess throwing out two State legends without ample cause. Certainly he knew the firestorm that he was creating. Hess may or may not be a horrible ref, but he'd have to be quite stupid to do what he did without a reason. Sorry, just doesn't compute.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

After reading this thread, the main thing I take away from it is this: the Duke fanbase hates the refs just like all the others we harp on, no more and no less.

Karl Hess may have screwed up the protocol, but I seriously doubt Corchianni and Gugliotta were innocent of wrongdoing. I just can't see Hess throwing out two State legends without ample cause. Certainly he knew the firestorm that he was creating. Hess may or may not be a horrible ref, but he'd have to be quite stupid to do what he did without a reason. Sorry, just doesn't compute.

You're essentially suggesting he is a definitively rational person - but maybe he isn't rational at all.

[camion]

After reading this thread, the main thing I take away from it is this: the Duke fanbase hates the refs just like all the others we harp on, no more and no less.

Karl Hess may have screwed up the protocol, but I seriously doubt Corchianni and Gugliotta were innocent of wrongdoing. I just can't see Hess throwing out two State legends without ample cause. Certainly he knew the firestorm that he was creating. Hess may or may not be a horrible ref, but he'd have to be quite stupid to do what he did without a reason. Sorry, just doesn't compute.

A lot of things that don't compute happen anyway, but the bottom line is that we really don't know what happened to precipitate the ejection. We're just speculating spectators (specutators).

[Jderf]

I don't think it is the colossal error or the culmination of a career filled with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work. I merely think this is a symptom or an indication as to how overblown Hess's ego has become. It's not the error, but its a strong indication that he thinks he's above reproach, and that what he's been doing all these years, which vascilates between simply ruining otherwise watchable game and out and out effecting the outcome of games, is right.

The missed goaltend was attrocious, but hell, so too was the screw job he gave us in the 2004 ACC title game.

It's a wonder we all don't aspire to be officials. There's no accountability, it seems, and unlike most other professions, no correlation between the quality of your work and the success of your career.

First off, apologies. I wasn't really addressing your post specifically, just using it as a jumping point for my own post. I should have made that more clear. But what I was trying to address was what seems to be an oversized reaction from the NC State fanbase. Think about it: people are still shouting about a referee blowing a call four days after the game, and this is for a call that had absolutely zero effect on the outcome of the game. I have never seen such a burning spotlight placed on a call which, though embarassing for Hess, was completely inconsequential for the game itself. I think it says something about the current mental fragility of the NC State fanbase right now. They are still reeling from their collapse against us. Maybe it's PTSD?

[killerleft]

You're essentially suggesting he is a definitively rational person - but maybe he isn't rational at all.

He's just been good at faking people out for all these years?

I'd forgotten this (scroll down):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Flames_basketball#Karl_Hess_.2311

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

He's just been good at faking people out for all these years?

I'd forgotten this (scroll down):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Flames_basketball#Karl_Hess_.2311

Not exactly sure what that means.

I don't know, maybe he's looking for attention (consciously or subconsciously) on a big stage again. I just don't agree that there HAD to be a logical reason for him to do what he did. Anyway, we'll never really know. So...

[buddy]

After all this discussion, we still do not know what C&G did. It seems to me that the ACC could have put out a simple statement saying what they did. That way all schools and all fans would be on notice about the specific behavior that was deemed unacceptable. The failure of the ACC to take this simple step convinces me that they know that Hess was out of control. The issue is not how good an official he is, but why he made this particular call. The fact that he is a "good official" is irrelevant. And with all due respect to Playcaller, his article is filled with "ifs" not facts. Hess screwed up, the ACC needs to protect its officials. As always, the coverup is worse than the crime.

[WakeDevil]

The league says it has conducted a thorough investigation of the incident. I take that to mean it interviewed the officials at the scorer's table as well as the FSU assistant AD who commented on the incident to NC State officials. I say all that with a bit of sarcasm.

As someone who reads Pack Pride daily, this is not a simple case of that fan base reeling from the loss to Duke. They perceive the conference as having favored their two neighbors for far too long. Go over there and argue with them about it. There are enough threads on the subject.

[snowdenscold]

That Wikipedia article says Hess is a psychologist who also refs basketball games?

[killerleft]

Not exactly sure what that means.

I don't know, maybe he's looking for attention (consciously or subconsciously) on a big stage again. I just don't agree that there HAD to be a logical reason for him to do what he did. Anyway, we'll never really know. So...

Nothing to it, just interesting. Karl himself is a legendary baller.

Those farmers over at State College need to get a grip. Just how is the State perception of ref favoritism any different than that of our unrival, the Maryland Terps'? Or Carolina's? Or ours? It just happens to ebb and flow, according to whether things are going good at the time. Things are not going well over in Raleigh these last few days.

[Jim3k]

Yahoo headline:

Mark Gottfried blasts Karl Hess over ejection of NC State legends (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger-college-basketball-blog/mark-gottfried-blasts-karl-hess-over-ejection-nc-152136334.html;_ylt=AmKHw.XMpSzR.yGK6dFd5N3evbYF)



Gottfried did not hold back the way he did in his news conference after Saturday's game. He called Hess' decision "weak" and said "the official was completely out of line 100 percent." "I'm disappointed quite frankly in the ACC because not only did he throw out two of North Carolina State's greats, he threw out two of the ACC's greats," Gottfried said. "The league is supporting an official rather than supporting former great players. The former great players, in my opinion, were embarrassed and wronged when they shouldn't have been. I don't think you can have rabbit ears like that if you're a referee and start throwing people out. I was disappointed in the whole thing."

[FerryFor50]

Yahoo headline:

Mark Gottfried blasts Karl Hess over ejection of NC State legends (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger-college-basketball-blog/mark-gottfried-blasts-karl-hess-over-ejection-nc-152136334.html;_ylt=AmKHw.XMpSzR.yGK6dFd5N3evbYF)

Now watch Gottfried get fined. :p

[Newton_14]

Now watch Gottfried get fined. :p

For context, Gottfried did not make those comments at a press conference or in front of a reporter. The comments were made to the students at the annual "Ram Roast" last night, which is held each year prior to the game with UNC. It being 2012 and all that, one of the students recorded it on his phone and decided it would be a good idea to post it on Facebook. A classic case of "I have met the enemy and it is me". Dumb idea to hang your coach out like that if you ask me.

I suspect the ACC will reprimand Gottfried which will only make this worse.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

For context, Gottfried did not make those comments at a press conference or in front of a reporter. The comments were made to the students at the annual "Ram Roast" last night, which is held each year prior to the game with UNC. It being 2012 and all that, one of the students recorded it on his phone and decided it would be a good idea to post it on Facebook. A classic case of "I have met the enemy and it is me". Dumb idea to hang your coach out like that if you ask me.

I suspect the ACC will reprimand Gottfried which will only make this worse.
If that happens, it certainly will suggest that coaches may have to word whatever they say very carefully at pep rallies and similar gatherings.... and the spontaneity associated with pep rallies will be diminished.

[Newton_14]

If that happens, it certainly will suggest that coaches may have to word whatever they say very carefully at pep rallies and similar gatherings.... and the spontaneity associated with pep rallies will be diminished.

Agree. It;s sad really. In that type of setting, coaches will generaly speak more frankly and thats a good thing. If their own students are going to ruin that by taking it viral then, like you indicate, all we will ever get is "coach speak" no matter the setting. There are some things better left off the internet.

[OldPhiKap]

For context, Gottfried did not make those comments at a press conference or in front of a reporter. The comments were made to the students at the annual "Ram Roast" last night, which is held each year prior to the game with UNC. It being 2012 and all that, one of the students recorded it on his phone and decided it would be a good idea to post it on Facebook. A classic case of "I have met the enemy and it is me". Dumb idea to hang your coach out like that if you ask me.

I suspect the ACC will reprimand Gottfried which will only make this worse.

Gottfried just made himself the most popular coach in Raleigh since V.

If he gets fined, it's well worth it.

[Jim3k]

In some ways, Yahoo's headine is worse than what Gottfried actually said.


It won't matter, though, cuz Gottfried will pay for it.

[buddy]

Iwould be surprised if the ACC does anything to Gottfried. the ACC obviously wants this to go away. Punishing Gottfried breathes new life into this controversy and almost guarantees that it carries over to the Tournament. And it would further inflame a fan base that is convinced that the league is out to get them. Unless the league is willing to come forward with a credible explanation of why what C&G did was so outrageously excessive that it necessitating the ejection of team and league legends it would be best to just ignore Gottfried's statements. The league office needs to remember the first rule of hole digging--when you get in too deep it is time to stop digging.

[gotoguy]

Googs was interviewed last night on a local Atlanta sports network station, CSS. He was attending the game with his daughter and said he has no idea as to why he was ejected. I'll(or someone more accomplished than I, Jason??) will try to find a link to the interview on the CSS website.

[jimsumner]

For context, Gottfried did not make those comments at a press conference or in front of a reporter. The comments were made to the students at the annual "Ram Roast" last night, which is held each year prior to the game with UNC. It being 2012 and all that, one of the students recorded it on his phone and decided it would be a good idea to post it on Facebook. A classic case of "I have met the enemy and it is me". Dumb idea to hang your coach out like that if you ask me.

I suspect the ACC will reprimand Gottfried which will only make this worse.

Yes, it is 2012. There is no way Mark Gottfried--who is pretty media savy--could expect to say something like that in a public arena and have it remain private. It's not like he was talking to a couple of his closest friends in his living room. He knew darn well there was no expectation of privacy. Not with that many people with smart phones and Facebook/Twitter accounts.

He said what he wanted to say.

[oldnavy]

Well if all he said is what was transcribed above, then.. so what? He is disappointed in the ACC's reaction and Karl Hess has rabbitt ears.... not exactly a scathing reaction IMO.

[Reilly]

All of this "Corchiani got kicked out of class and sent to the principal's office" stuff brings back a funny memory. I think "48 hours" had recently started as a show, and in the late 80s or early 90s, they did a sgement on NCState basketball (maybe it was on the whole Triangle and college passions).

As I recall it, Corchiani is sitting in class and the teacher was passing back a graded test. The camera is behind Corchiani, looking over Corch's shoulder; he sort of looks back over his shoulder sheepishly, holding the paper, and says something like "I didn't do so well on this one." Just the way he did it was funny.

[jimsumner]

All of this "Corchiani got kicked out of class and sent to the principal's office" stuff brings back a funny memory. I think "48 hours" had recently started as a show, and in the late 80s or early 90s, they did a sgement on NCState basketball (maybe it was on the whole Triangle and college passions).

As I recall it, Corchiani is sitting in class and the teacher was passing back a graded test. The camera is behind Corchiani, looking over Corch's shoulder; he sort of looks back over his shoulder sheepishly, holding the paper, and says something like "I didn't do so well on this one." Just the way he did it was funny.

What I remember from that is the Duke team and the State team both flying out of RDU for the Eastern Regionals and the State players being absolutely astonished that the Duke players were taking books so that they could study on the plane.

[davekay1971]

What I remember from that is the Duke team and the State team both flying out of RDU for the Eastern Regionals and the State players being absolutely astonished that the Duke players were taking books so that they could study on the plane.

Well, yeah. They were shocked and disgusted the way the Duke players had procrastinated doing their homework. The State guys had it all done BEFORE they went to the airport! :cool:

[OldPhiKap]

Well, yeah. They were shocked and disgusted the way the Duke players had procrastinated doing their homework. The State guys had it all done BEFORE they went to the airport! :cool:

To be fair to the State players, finding their way to the airport WAS their homework.

[PackMan97]

To be fair to the State players, finding their way to the airport WAS their homework.

Hey! at least they didn't need a tutor to help them out like the Carolina players.

[OldPhiKap]

Hey! at least they didn't need a tutor to help them out like the Carolina players.

True. And at Carolina, that's a grad-level course.

[OldPhiKap]

Another good article by the PlayCaller. Agree or disagree, you gotta love getting that kind of content here.

Kudos to those who assisted in presenting it.

[Jderf]

Another good article by the PlayCaller. Agree or disagree, you gotta love getting that kind of content here.

Kudos to those who assisted in presenting it.

Yup. Gotta agree. Whenever I see any public figure getting completely roasted around here -- which is shockingly often, to be honest -- I always like to see someone make a case for the defense. I still think the ejection was a bad mistake, obviously, but I found myself agreeing with the majority of the playcaller's points. That was some high quality stuff.

[killerleft]

I remember when Lou Bello was refereeing in the ACC, specifically the 60s and 70s. Bello should have been an actor. His dramatic flair when making calls could help rev a crowd up almost as much as a 10-0 run. For example, a charge call might consist of a running start, a spear-throwing right arm toward the other basket, all while his eyes were bugged out. He was a friendly-looking guy who smiled a lot, maybe a personality kinda like Valvano. Somebody correct me on that if need be, I was just a kid.

Duke students loved Bello. Not because he favored Duke, though. Just because of the antics. I remember after a particularly Academy Award-type night for Bello, my dad (a sportswriter all through the "golden age" of the ACC) asking me as we drove home, "Why do the Duke students love Lou Bello so much? He really screwed Duke tonight."

It's too late now, but maybe Hess should have gone the gregarious route. The act he's honed just rubs people the wrong way.

My feelings about Hess can be summed up thusly: If every school's fans hate him, he must be doing something right.

[Reilly]

Playcaller writes: "The public’s verdict of absolutely-and-completely-guilty may ultimately have been a just one, but it was reached far too swiftly."

Not necessarily. See "Blink."

My first impression was that Hess was absolutely-and-completely guilty.

After watching the videotape, reading the first ACC statement, reading what Hess emailed to N.C. State, reading the ACC reprimand, reading what Corch and Googs said, reading what those around them say happened, reading Playcaller's two suppositions, reading thoughtful and not-so-thoughtful posts by smart Duke fans who have followed basketball closely for years, and reading thoughtful commentary from the press, and striving to give Hess every benefit of the doubt, I have come to the conclusion that ... he is absolutely-and-completely guilty.

In hindsight, I don't think my original verdict was reached far too swiftly. At all.

[sagegrouse]

I remember when Lou Bello was refereeing in the ACC, specifically the 60s and 70s. Bello should have been an actor. His dramatic flair when making calls could help rev a crowd up almost as much as a 10-0 run. For example, a charge call might consist of a running start, a spear-throwing right arm toward the other basket, all while his eyes were bugged out. He was a friendly-looking guy who smiled a lot, maybe a personality kinda like Valvano. Somebody correct me on that if need be, I was just a kid.

Duke students loved Bello. Not because he favored Duke, though. Just because of the antics. I remember after a particularly Academy Award-type night for Bello, my dad (a sportswriter all through the "golden age" of the ACC) asking me as we drove home, "Why do the Duke students love Lou Bello so much? He really screwed Duke tonight."

It's too late now, but maybe Hess should have gone the gregarious route. The act he's honed just rubs people the wrong way.

My feelings about Hess can be summed up thusly: If every school's fans hate him, he must be doing something right.

Lou Bello was a Duke grad, Class of 1947. He probably did not referee Duke games, but he was everywhere else. I remember him at The Citadel when Norm Sloan was coach there. What an act he had! Also, my friends at Clemson absolutely loved him. Here's his obit (http://www.thedeadballera.com/Obits/MinorLeaguers/Obits_B/Bello.Lou.Obit001.html)from 20 years ago. He was an Army aviator in WW II and was a POW in Germany for eight months. Wow!

sagegrouse

[oldnavy]

Loved the playcaller's article, good insight but not real specific on this particular "call" if you will. I still think that if the scorer's table was being impacted by Chris and Tom, then they would have or should have taken care of it. In the big scheme of things it really isn't a big deal, but it gives us all something to talk about doesn't it.

For the record, I generally dislike all refs. I don't know why, maybe it is because I often got tossed from games when I was still playing.... :p. Also, if they make the right call and it favors your team, then you think, well that was how it is suppossed to work. But if they make a "bad" call that impacts your team, then you get mad as fire at them... essentially they can't really win and I guess it is not important what the fans think anyway as long as they are fair.

Now, Lou Bello, he was a classic!! I remember him doing the sports show on the local NBC TV channel (3) in Durham back in the day... he would always open the segement with "HELLO, SPORTS FANS" in his NY accent. He was really fun to watch...

[alteran]

My feelings about Hess can be summed up thusly: If every school's fans hate him, he must be doing something right.

I have seen variants of this logic before. But sometimes, when everyone dislikes you, it's because you're a horse's rear.

My position on Hess has been softening a bit in the last few days. But I do think he really screwed this one up.

[killerleft]

I have seen variants of this logic before. But sometimes, when everyone dislikes you, it's because you're a horse's rear.

My position on Hess has been softening a bit in the last few days. But I do think he really screwed this one up.

He probably did screw up, and he may be a horse's rear.

A co-worker who went to Liberty ("Baptist" at the time, I think) with Hess remembers him as supremely confident and perhaps a bit arrogant. This co-worker also would play sandlot ball with him, and said that Hess would personally destroy other sandlot twosomes while my co-worker just watched and rebounded a bit. Hess seems typical of the profile of a D-1 ref as the Playcaller described it.

But being disliked does not equate to being a bad ref, or what's the use of even pretending that there are good referees out there somewhere?

[killerleft]

Lou Bello was a Duke grad, Class of 1947. He probably did not referee Duke games, but he was everywhere else. I remember him at The Citadel when Norm Sloan was coach there. What an act he had! Also, my friends at Clemson absolutely loved him. Here's his obit (http://www.thedeadballera.com/Obits/MinorLeaguers/Obits_B/Bello.Lou.Obit001.html)from 20 years ago. He was an Army aviator in WW II and was a POW in Germany for eight months. Wow!

sagegrouse

Now I will worry myself over which ref my dad was referring to when he said that, although I guess it doesn't matter. But I did see Bello ref a lot, really! He did a bunch of Carolinas' Conference games (Elon, Guilford, Catawba, W. Car., App State, High Point, Presbyterian, etc.).

[oldnavy]

I thought Lou called some Duke games myself.... not positive because that was a LONG time ago, but he was an ACC ref so would he have to disqualify himself from both Duke and UNC games?? I know that I couldn't claim to be unbiased for either team myself, I would give every call to Duke and every call to whoever was playing UNC.... just being honest!! :cool:

[gus]

This discussion and the playcaller's articles remind of Anders Frisk, a Swedish soccer referee who retired after a barrage of death threats from Chelsea fans.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/mar/13/football.deniscampbell

Officiating a sporting event is ridiculously difficult, and while I've shouted my share of bile at them in my younger days, I've come to realize that often referees do actually know more about the sport than I do.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

...The Playcaller = Karl Hess?!?

He knows quite a lot about Karl. And he seems to draw extensively on insight from some sort of sociology and/or psychology background. Hess is a psychologist... Hmmmm... Anyone see them in the same room together? ;)

[-jk]

...The Playcaller = Karl Hess?!?

He knows quite a lot about Karl. And he seems to draw extensively on insight from some sort of sociology and/or psychology background. Hess is a psychologist... Hmmmm... Anyone see them in the same room together? ;)

That would be fabulous! Alas, I have to pop your bubble. The Playcaller is not, in fact, Karl Hess.

-jk

[JStuart]

Playcaller writes: "The public’s verdict of absolutely-and-completely-guilty may ultimately have been a just one, but it was reached far too swiftly."

Not necessarily. See "Blink."

My first impression was that Hess was absolutely-and-completely guilty.

After watching the videotape, reading the first ACC statement, reading what Hess emailed to N.C. State, reading the ACC reprimand, reading what Corch and Googs said, reading what those around them say happened, reading Playcaller's two suppositions, reading thoughtful and not-so-thoughtful posts by smart Duke fans who have followed basketball closely for years, and reading thoughtful commentary from the press, and striving to give Hess every benefit of the doubt, I have come to the conclusion that ... he is absolutely-and-completely guilty.

In hindsight, I don't think my original verdict was reached far too swiftly. At all.

I like this summary. The Playcaller articles are wonderful, and well-written. But he doesn't say why the fans were tossed out.
Does anyone know the specific reason that Hess took the extreme, Roy Williams-esque, measure of removing those two ticket holders from the game?
If this happened every other game or so, one could simply think, 'overexuberant fans'. But this surely seems to be unprecedented, and there seems to be nothing out there to help others of us who want to know just what NOT to do when Karl Hess is assigned to the game we have a ticket for.
What line did they cross?
Inquiring minds, and all that.

[Jim3k]

I like this summary. The Playcaller articles are wonderful, and well-written. But he doesn't say why the fans were tossed out.
Does anyone know the specific reason that Hess took the extreme, Roy Williams-esque, measure of removing those two ticket holders from the game?
If this happened every other game or so, one could simply think, 'overexuberant fans'. But this surely seems to be unprecedented, and there seems to be nothing out there to help others of us who want to know just what NOT to do when Karl Hess is assigned to the game we have a ticket for.
What line did they cross?
Inquiring minds, and all that.

Unless you're sitting in the rows behind the scorers' table, you should have no trouble.

[alteran]

I like this summary. The Playcaller articles are wonderful, and well-written. But he doesn't say why the fans were tossed out.
Does anyone know the specific reason that Hess took the extreme, Roy Williams-esque, measure of removing those two ticket holders from the game?
If this happened every other game or so, one could simply think, 'overexuberant fans'. But this surely seems to be unprecedented, and there seems to be nothing out there to help others of us who want to know just what NOT to do when Karl Hess is assigned to the game we have a ticket for.
What line did they cross?
Inquiring minds, and all that.

According to the official explanation that the ACC provided NCSU but did not make public (looks like an NCSU anonymous source did, though): "(t)hey were ejected for excessive demonstration on several calls as they came right up to the scorer's table. The policeman at the end of the FSU bench was warned that their continual excessive demonstration that incited the crowd would result in ejection".

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7595857/acc-reprimands-official-ejection-chris-corchiani-tom-gugliotta
(http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7595857/acc-reprimands-official-ejection-chris-corchiani-tom-gugliotta)
The optics of the scene were that Hess flew off the handle and just picked these two guys and ejected them. But if he warned the police officer, it sounds like he identified a behavior he found problematic, and when it recurred he ejected them. This is, IMHO, a far different thing.

Furthermore. jumping up, encroaching the scorer's table, and inciting the crowd are all things people should have seen. and a police officer should provide a stellar witness that Hess provided warning that the former Pack player's behaviors were out-of-line (even if the officer did not pass the warning on to C&G).

This story should be a slam dunk to corroborate, I'm kind of surprised that it hasn't been. Unless, perhaps, the ACC/Hess and NCSU BOTH realize neither party has acquitted themselves well here, and just want to watch the whole thing die-- which it looks to me like is happening.

[oldnavy]

According to the official explanation that the ACC provided NCSU but did not make public (looks like an NCSU anonymous source did, though): "(t)hey were ejected for excessive demonstration on several calls as they came right up to the scorer's table. The policeman at the end of the FSU bench was warned that their continual excessive demonstration that incited the crowd would result in ejection".

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7595857/acc-reprimands-official-ejection-chris-corchiani-tom-gugliotta
(http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7595857/acc-reprimands-official-ejection-chris-corchiani-tom-gugliotta)
The optics of the scene were that Hess flew off the handle and just picked these two guys and ejected them. But if he warned the police officer, it sounds like he identified a behavior he found problematic, and when it recurred he ejected them. This is, IMHO, a far different thing.

Furthermore. jumping up, encroaching the scorer's table, and inciting the crowd are all things people should have seen. and a police officer should provide a stellar witness that Hess provided warning that the former Pack player's behaviors were out-of-line (even if the officer did not pass the warning on to C&G).

This story should be a slam dunk to corroborate, I'm kind of surprised that it hasn't been. Unless, perhaps, the ACC/Hess and NCSU BOTH realize neither party has acquitted themselves well here, and just want to watch the whole thing die-- which it looks to me like is happening.

Agree, I think they want it to die. I still don't buy the explaination. I think that the scorer table officials would be very capable of handling this without getting a floor official involved if they felt it needed to be addressed. The very easy explaination is that C&G were ragging Hess, Hess got tired of it and tossed them. I actually have little to no problem with that (other than Hess should be a little thicker skinned). It is always the cover up....