MBB: Duke 78, NCSU 73 Post-Game Thread

[hurleyfor3]

Whoa boy.

[FerryFor50]

This game went from home court debacle to an awesome comeback win! Discuss!

[FerryFor50]

That's the NCSU we all know and love....

Seth Curry really stepped up this game and NCSU finally rolled over.

Great win despite the terrible start.

[dball]

Seth was great, playing through the ankle tweak.

[anon]

A quick request... can the people decrying the team as the worst ever midway through each game keep it up? It seems to give the team ammunition. :)

[MartyClark]

This team frustrates the heck out of me. The first half was ridiculously bad. We played well in the second half. I'll take it but this game doesn't bode well for tournament success.

[lotusland]

It was not a thing of beauty except the last 7-8 minutes but a win nontheless!

[Ping Lin]

Duke with the near-impossible come from behind victory.

I... I dunno. I want to relish the win, but I just can't. I almost feel like getting blown out on our home floor would go further in bringing in solutions to help patch our problems than winning like this.

What's wrong with me?

[FerryFor50]

Loved the effort. Loved the will. Loved that shots finally started falling. :)

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Just when I got a little tired of watching the comeback over UNC on the DVR, I have a whole new gem to watch over multiple times!:cool:

[BlueDevilBaby]

Wow! Just glad ESPN showed last few minutes because ACC app did not work. Great heart, guys.

[The Slamming Butcher]

Wow. That was one EPIC collapse by State...the kind that can unravel an entire season.

[hurleyfor3]

This team frustrates the heck out of me.

Imagine how NCSU fans feel.

[davekay1971]

My heart really hurts for State. Kudos to our guys coming back, picking up the intensity, and getting the win. Did all the little things they didn't do at the end against FSU and Miami. But I feel for the State guys. They played really, really well and then got nervous and tight when we started coming back. They really just made those critical errors at the end. Hope State has a much better outcome for their next TWO games!

[Chris Randolph]

Dang this Duke team! Ha. Soooooo frustrating. I enjoy the comeback win but I'm still frustrated. The goal of the game is to win and Duke did. Can't complain about that. My problem is I over-react and think too much in terms of the future (how we will play in March)

Tonight I will enjoy that they came back. I called out Seth Curry going into the Va Tech game and since then he has been solid and recently superb.

[lotusland]

A quick request... can the people decrying the team as the worst ever midway through each game keep it up? It seems to give the team ammunition. :)

Unfortunately they are all "done" with this team and won't be back until next year:D

[superdave]

This team does not do conventional very well.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

A quick request... can the people decrying the team as the worst ever midway through each game keep it up? It seems to give the team ammunition. :)

Actually, I hope they were watching something else because they don't deserve to have watched our team do what they just did. Real fans don't say the things I saw posted here an hour ago.

[FerryFor50]

Unfortunately they are all "done" with this team and won't be back until next year:D

Sigh. I wish. They're already back in this thread!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Jeebus -

Are all the boring games over? I don't know if I can take the rest of the season...

At least our team will never believe they are out of the game. Opposition is going to be hearing footsteps every time Duke makes a basket - no matter the margin.

I just wish we could play defense...

/I'll take the win
//Next play

[Utley]

How did we win that game?

[roywhite]

Wow. That was one EPIC collapse by State...the kind that can unravel an entire season.

After watching VaTech blow the game against FSU, I thought one epic collapse was enough for a night...but, no, you're right, it was a collapse by the Wuffies.

There is something to the psychology of expecting to win or expecting bad things to happen.

[brumby041]

From the in-game thread:

Julius Hodge just looked like he got punched in the junk.

(too soon?)

Awesome...post of the day!

[RoyalBlue08]

The causexof death on my certificate is going to say Duke basketball. If they keep this up, it may be this year.

[Papa John]

The cardiac kids strike again... Time to medicate... Seth is MoM...

[jv001]

Actually, I hope they were watching something else because they don't deserve to have watched our team do what they just did. Real fans don't say the things I saw posted here an hour ago.

That's one reason I wait until after the game's over before posting. So many Duke fans jumping ship. Great to see the team play defense in the 2nd half. GoDuke!

[cbnaylor]

How did we win that game?

NC State watched the Duke UNC game last week! Go Duke. Good call by pressing them!

[The Slamming Butcher]

Debra Morgan looks like she has been sitting on a bag of fertilizer...

[FerryFor50]

From the in-game thread:

Julius Hodge just looked like he got punched in the junk.

(too soon?)

Awesome...post of the day!

lolz

It's never too soon...

[jipops]

There is something that is both gratifying and bothersome in a comeback win like this. Great that we showed the heart and tenacity to fight back against an opponent that had the edge athletically. But let's face it, State's dumb fouls in the 1st half helped us out big time in the 2nd. I think we earned it, but I think State blew it just as much.

Leslie was a matchup nightmare and the perimeter was getting everything they wanted. Again the foul issues seemed to take the sails out of them and the required substitutions as a result of their foul issues seemed to disrupt the offensive and defensive flow. They were a totally different team as a result.

[UrinalCake]

This game was a good argument for stall ball. NC State took some quick jumpers during our run that really helped us out. Throw in some turnovers, Curry and Rivers finally driving to the rack instead of settling for threes, and State's matador defense due to foul trouble and there you go.

Pretty awesome that we'll cause both the UNC and NC State fanbases to meltdown in a span of eight days.

[Saratoga2]

The team was sleep walking through the first half. Mason had no fouls for the first 29 minutes while we were getting badly outrebounded. Was he working hard enough? Kelly was not competitive. To his credit, Seth kept playing and turned it up a notch in the second half. It seemed to ignite both Austin and Mason, whose intensity level went up. Ryan still didn't look good in the second half, but with Leslie in the game, I guess the coach wanted him in as well. I kept wondering when Dawkins would get a shot. Seth found him for a three and he got another and missed one. Surprisingly few shots, while some of our less talented 3 point shooters were taking them instead.

Perhaps with Leslie out with foul trouble and NCS's bench pretty limited, they tired as they did against UNC. Just enough to make up a huge deficit. I didn't understand why Thornton came in and fouled the three point shooter in that circumstance. Not a very smart play at all.

Special Kudos to Seth who saved this team tonight.

[OldSchool]

State scored 46 points in the first half - a 92 per game rate. That included only four 3-pointers.

We did a great job on Scott Wood all night, but were just unable to keep them from getting past our guards in the first half and getting close in shots.

For all our defensive weakness, this team has a LOT of heart. It is very impressive to see them mount huge comebacks while maintaining their poise.

[FerryFor50]

There is something that is both gratifying and bothersome in a comeback win like this. Great that we showed the heart and tenacity to fight back against an opponent that had the edge athletically. But let's face it, State's dumb fouls in the 1st half helped us out big time in the 2nd. I think we earned it, but I think State blew it just as much.

Leslie was a matchup nightmare and the perimeter was getting everything they wanted. Again the foul issues seemed to take the sails out of them and the required substitutions as a result of their foul issues seemed to disrupt their flow. They were a totally different team as a result.

I see no negatives in a comeback win where you're absolutely getting your lunch handed to you and you claw back and win by 5 at home.

[jipops]

This game was a good argument for stall ball. NC State took some quick jumpers during our run that really helped us out. Throw in some turnovers, Curry and Rivers finally driving to the rack instead of settling for threes, and State's matador defense due to foul trouble and there you go.

Pretty awesome that we'll cause both the UNC and NC State fanbases to meltdown in a span of eight days.

This is a great point. How ironic that two teams that refuse to play a slow-down game ended up blowing leads against a team that loves to slow it down at the end.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Most underrated part of the game...

Coach K's use of timeouts after baskets well before the 4 minute mark in second half. Served to set the defense (at vital times), lengthen the game, and pressure NC State. He is a master.

[loran16]

From Kendall Marshall's twitter:
"This has been a disappointing night. I'm goin to sleep."

I'll say.

[moonpie23]

GREAT game for state......terrible game for duke.... even tho we win, that was horrible...

state is getting better.....the team is buying in......gott has a good seed planted......they'll be tough next year and beyond...


us? i'm worried about how we have let just about every team push us around.......it is what it is.... :/

[Lunchab1es]

I see no negatives in a comeback win where you're absolutely getting your lunch handed to you and you claw back and win by 5 at home.

The fact that we were down by 20 at home against an opponent to begin with?

I like that we clawed back too, and it was great to watch, but dang. Let's not wait until we are 20 down to start playing!

[throatybeard]

How did we win that game?

My friend, a State gal, bet me $20 that Duke would win win when it was 60something to 40something. Best $20 I ever spent.

[hq2]

Hard to say which is more surprising; that they got that far down (I mean State isn't that good)
or came that far back. Second time in a little more than a week!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

There is something that is both gratifying and bothersome in a comeback win like this. Great that we showed the heart and tenacity to fight back against an opponent that had the edge athletically. But let's face it, State's dumb fouls in the 1st half helped us out big time in the 2nd. I think we earned it, but I think State blew it just as much.

Leslie was a matchup nightmare and the perimeter was getting everything they wanted. Again the foul issues seemed to take the sails out of them and the required substitutions as a result of their foul issues seemed to disrupt the offensive and defensive flow. They were a totally different team as a result.

There's no doubt they were generally out-hustling and outplaying us for 30 minutes. But you could argue that all their early fouling (at least partially) kept us from finding our rhythm. The game is played at both ends and they couldn't defend without fouling. It's okay to play with aggression but it has to be controlled. They couldn't quite do that. And let's give Duke some credit for exploiting State's aggression and creating fouls. They had to do something. I'm not about to give State credit for our win.

[jipops]

Most underrated part of the game...

Coach K's use of timeouts after baskets well before the 4 minute mark in second half. Served to set the defense (at vital times), lengthen the game, and pressure NC State. He is a master.

Another great point. We also got into our offense very quickly in an effort to increase the number of possessions. We attacked early and didn't just throw the ball around the perimeter looking for ball screens.

But it was finally some showing of defense that won this.

[-bdbd]

Ya hafta feel for the State fans. This was a HUGE game for them - a chance for a marquee win down the stretch of the season to get them off of "the bubble." But as G-man said, "I don't know where you go from here if you're State." I gotta think their fans will be just crushed by this.

Of course, the wailing about the refs "giving" the game to Duke will be a frequent refrain, as it always is.

Keys to the comeback:
- Duke's pressure (incl full-court). They finally found their defensive focus.
- Finally started getting some O-rhythm (and making 3's)!
- State's foul trouble (and therefore playing overly tentative in the last ten minutes)
- Lack of composure by a young and relatively inexperienced (for games like these, esp AWAY) State squad. As I was posting on the in-game thread while we were way down, "State's not as confident as they seem right now. Just make a little run, play some D (and we're still in this)."

You KNOW the coaches are telling the team right now "You can't keep digging yourselves these deep holes and expecting to be able to come back." I keep hoping that THIS time they've learned the lesson...

Great comeback guys!!

[burnspbesq]

One more and we're a continuing criminal enterprise under RICO. The Jusice Department will seize Cameron.

[FerryFor50]

The fact that we were down by 20 at home against an opponent to begin with?

I like that we clawed back too, and it was great to watch, but dang. Let's not wait until we are 20 down to start playing!

Nope. Because they fought back and didn't give in. Even if they lost at the end, they still kept their heads in it. (though THAT would have been disappointing)

[jipops]

There's no doubt they were generally out-hustling and outplaying us for 30 minutes. But you could argue that all their early fouling (at least partially) kept us from finding our rhythm. The game is played at both ends and they couldn't defend without fouling. It's okay to play with aggression but it has to be controlled. They couldn't quite do that. And let's give Duke some credit for exploiting State's aggression and creating fouls. They had to do something. I'm not about to give State credit for our win.

A large portion of State's fouls in the 1st were dumb fouls away from the basket, not on contested shots. These are the fouls that got them in trouble later. So I actually would argue that their early fouling was not what kept us out of our rhythm. We tried to go inside early and it was a block party, and those were clean blocks. We looked to the perimeter but all our shots were too quick because of their quick recovery. They also beat us up pretty good on the boards in the 1st half. I'm not giving State credit for our win, but they did implode.

[jv001]

GREAT game for state......terrible game for duke.... even tho we win, that was horrible...

state is getting better.....the team is buying in......gott has a good seed planted......they'll be tough next year and beyond...


us? i'm worried about how we have let just about every team push us around.......it is what it is.... :/

Come on moonpie23. It's always a good game when we can come from 20 down. Especially after the comeback win over the evil empire just a few days ago. Cheer up. the sun will come up tomorrow. GoDuke!

[wgl1228]

As long as State doesn't lose to anyone other than unc or fsu they will get in tourney. Good job Duke!

[diveonthefloor]

From Kendall Marshall's twitter:
"This has been a disappointing night. I'm goin to sleep."

I'll say.

HA! That's awesome!
From UNC's standpoint, they were inches away from sole possession of first place in the conference.
Had fans turned off both the Fla State and Duke games midway through the second half, they would have been 100% sure of UNC capturing sole possession of first.

Oh well. Hope you sleep poorly, Kendall!

:cool:

[MCFinARL]

Wow. That was one EPIC collapse by State...the kind that can unravel an entire season.

I have to agree. The looks on Leslie and Howell's faces on the bench after they fouled out were telling--they were crushed--even as they had a chance to get it back down to 2 when Tyler fouled Wood. I hope they can get it together against Florida State, but I wouldn't be shocked if they don't really get it together the rest of the season.

[FerryFor50]

HA! That's awesome!
From UNC's standpoint, they were inches away from sole possession of first place in the conference.
Had fans turned off both the Fla State and Duke games midway through the second half, they would have been 100% sure of UNC capturing sole possession of first.

Oh well. Hope you sleep poorly, Kendall!

:cool:

They'd be in sole possession if they didn't get beat by 33 at FSU and didn't get the Duke dagger at Chapel Hill.

Maybe Marshall should worry more about who they're playing instead of other teams helping them out...

[jv001]

I would like to see us use the trapping defense at the beginning of the game. Maybe that will get us moving our feet on defense. Something to get us going besides making 3's GoDuke!

[OldSchool]

It's somewhat amazing that in a game in which we are frantically trying to overcome a huge deficit, the team had only 5 turnovers for the game.

Managing to come back from that far down without pressing or trying to do things out of character which would result in turnovers was very impressive.

[jipops]

GREAT game for state......terrible game for duke.... even tho we win, that was horrible...

state is getting better.....the team is buying in......gott has a good seed planted......they'll be tough next year and beyond...


us? i'm worried about how we have let just about every team push us around.......it is what it is.... :/

I'm pretty much where you are on this. I'm glad we won but the issues continue to manifest themselves to create concerns for when March rolls around.

[FerryFor50]

I would like to see us use the trapping defense at the beginning of the game. Maybe that will get us moving our feet on defense. Something to get us going besides making 3's GoDuke!

Agreed. Since they play 9 (and 10 if they play Silent G) they could play press all game long. Get the early lead and don't force yourself into having to come back from 20 down.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I would like to see us use the trapping defense at the beginning of the game. Maybe that will get us moving our feet on defense. Something to get us going besides making 3's GoDuke!

Lot of discussion about that over the last week+ and I agree. I think we need something to get us juiced out of the gates. A little floor slapping D early on might not be a bad idea!

[mgtr]

I was perhaps most impressed with our defense in the last 10 minutes or so.
Now if we played with that intensity for the whole game ...
The next step ought to be to repeatedly feed the post, which will draw players away from our guards,
so a kick back out may result in an open shot. Or, Mason may get a good shot attempt, going into
the shot blocker.

[jipops]

I would like to see us use the trapping defense at the beginning of the game. Maybe that will get us moving our feet on defense. Something to get us going besides making 3's GoDuke!

Maybe just a half-court trap but not full-court. I don't think we have enough overall team speed to make this effective.

[FerryFor50]

Ya hafta feel for the State fans. This was a HUGE game for them - a chance for a marquee win down the stretch of the season to get them off of "the bubble." But as G-man said, "I don't know where you go from here if you're State." I gotta think their fans will be just crushed by this.

Of course, the wailing about the refs "giving" the game to Duke will be a frequent refrain, as it always is.

Keys to the comeback:
- Duke's pressure (incl full-court). They finally found their defensive focus.
- Finally started getting some O-rhythm (and making 3's)!
- State's foul trouble (and therefore playing overly tentative in the last ten minutes)
- Lack of composure by a young and relatively inexperienced (for games like these, esp AWAY) State squad. As I was posting on the in-game thread while we were way down, "State's not as confident as they seem right now. Just make a little run, play some D (and we're still in this)."

You KNOW the coaches are telling the team right now "You can't keep digging yourselves these deep holes and expecting to be able to come back." I keep hoping that THIS time they've learned the lesson...

Great comeback guys!!

I don't feel for State fans. They may be beleaguered, but don't let em fool ya... they feel just as entitled as UNC fans and complain about the refs as much as Maryland fans. And they're not very knowledgeable, in general. (I went to State and lived it)

If State ever starts winning consistently (and I think they will under Gottfried) then they will become UNBEARABLE.

[hurleyfor3]

Laying back and waiting for ncsu to play stupidball is never a bad strategy.

[Duvall]

GREAT game for state......terrible game for duke.... even tho we win, that was horrible...

If Duke keeps having more horrible nights like this, they may find themselves with a league title.

[sagegrouse]

State -- 44% from the field; Duke -- 36%.

State -- 39 rebounds; Duke -- 31.

State -- 8 blocks; Duke -- 3.

The only stats in Duke's favor were TOs -- 15 to 5 -- and FT percentage, 71% to 67%.

As in the UNC game, the foul situation got in the heads of the State players. And then Rivers and Curry began to hit some shots. But why, oh why, do we have to fall behind by so much -- at home -- against an unranked team?

sage

[FerryFor50]

If Duke keeps having more horrible nights like this, they may find themselves with a league title.

That'd be horrible. Terrible, even.

[dcdevil2009]

This team is one of the most frustrating Duke teams in recent memory. It seems like we've got 10 minutes of excellent play, 10 minutes of mediocre to bad play, and 20 minutes of average to above average play in every game and we never know what order it's going to be. In 2010, we weren't the most talented team in the country, but we were very good and far and away the most consistent team in the country. Last year, we were the most talented team in the country, but got caught in the tournament having to work our most talented player back into the fold. This year's team is talented enough to get by mediocre to good teams without playing 40 minutes of great basketball, but for whatever reason doesn't seem to be able to keep it together for a full game. It's frustrating and emotionally draining. The UNC game was exhilarating and exciting while tonight's game was more relief than anything else.

[Class of '94]

But I don't feel sorry or bad for State. They played well and they should be in the NCAA tournament this year imo. That being said, State was still one game behind us in the loss column; more importantly, a win by State could have been a serious blow to our chances of winnin the ACC regular season; and I did not want a win over Duke in Cameron to be that signature win that gets theim into the tournament. I will however root for them this weekend to beat Carolina. But why can't STate play Carolina with the same kind of precision and confidence they appear to have when they play Duke?

As far as Duke's wn tonight, I am excited they won after being down 20 in the second half; but they still have to work on improving their defense and rebonding for a full 40 minutes. They picked it up in the second half which shows they are capable of doing it; they just have to conintue to grow and mature as a team. Duke appears to be a better road team than a home team which bodes well for post-season tournament time.

[FerryFor50]

But I don't feel sorry or bad for State. They played well and they should be in the NCAA tournament this year imo. That being said, State was still one game behind us in the loss column; more importantly, a win by State could have been a serious blow to our chances of winnin the ACC regular season; and I did not want a win over Duke in Cameron to be that signature win that gets theim into the tournament. I will however root for them this weekend to beat Carolina. But why can't STate play Carolina with the same kind of precision and confidence they appear to have when they play Duke?

As far as Duke's wn tonight, I am excited they won after being down 20 in the second half; but they still have to work on improving their defense and rebonding for a full 40 minutes. They picked it up in the second half which shows they are capable of doing it; they just have to conintue to grow and mature as a team. Duke appears to be a better road team than a home team which bodes well for post-season tournament time.

The sad thing is, losing like this to Duke will likely cause State to roll over AGAIN for UNC. Unless Gottfried can work some magic and find this team some heart.

NCSU = The Tin Man

[anon]

But I don't feel sorry or bad for State. They played well and they should be in the NCAA tournament this year imo.

Let's not go too far. State played us well, but they are not a tournament team.

[dukefriar]

As a fan since the early 80s I have a solid history of watching Duke teams develop throughout a season.
I am a long time DBR reader and infrequent poster. Tonight's game has drawn me to post.

There is a typical feel to many K teams - and those traits have been well discussed by this forum, so no need to repeat them. That said, This is a very intriguing team - wins over many top teams in Div 1 this year - and then that crazy team I don't recognize shows up every now and then??? The losses follow a non K-era Duke team pattern - struggling with defense which shows up as the dreaded 50% plus opponent FG%, with the offensive firepower drowned out by the challenges on the defensive end. Tonight's example - half #1.

Then there is that diamond in the rough (but clearly there in the Kenpom stats) offense. Points go up in a hurry, huh? Even more impressive when you consider there is no "one guy" doing it game in and game out. Any one of five one six guys can pick up the yoke of the offense and get this team rolling. That is fun (and yet sometimes frustrating) to watch. Tonight's example - half #2.

I say all that to lead to this: I really like this team. They are a top 10 team at a minimum. It is frustrating when that odd ball team takes the court, and yet glorious when they put it all together like the majority of the year, and importantly the last 10 minutes tonight and the last 3 minutes last minutes last Thurs (GTHC). I am enjoying the ride. Don't get me wrong - the first 30 minutes tonight were maddening. But that made the final 10 so special.

There is no doubt this team has things to work on and plenty of room for improvement. Keep the faith Duke fans. The season has much to cherish. Just take a deep breath and buckle up. Love the journey the team is taking. Appreciate the hall of fame coach working to put the pieces together. Keep some perspective in the criticism of our tied for the ACC lead, top 5ish to 10ish team. They deserve our support!

Go Duke!

[fan345678]

There's no doubt they were generally out-hustling and outplaying us for 30 minutes. But you could argue that all their early fouling (at least partially) kept us from finding our rhythm. The game is played at both ends and they couldn't defend without fouling. It's okay to play with aggression but it has to be controlled. They couldn't quite do that. And let's give Duke some credit for exploiting State's aggression and creating fouls. They had to do something. I'm not about to give State credit for our win.

Nail on the head here. State was being aggressive, and once we started attacking them a bit more, that aggression turned into fouls and out-of-control play. It came back to bite them in the second half, when they were much more tentative on both ends.

[jipops]

As in the UNC game, the foul situation got in the heads of the State players. And then Rivers and Curry began to hit some shots. But why, oh why, do we have to fall behind by so much -- at home -- against an unranked team?

sage

Because we have real problems communicating on defense. It almost doesn't matter who the opponent is or how poor their kenpom offensive rating is, we just have trouble guarding people.

State's early dumb fouls really helped bail us out. It wasn't the only reason, but it was part of it.

[ncexnyc]

I'm just thankful I've got excellent medical coverage. Before the end of this season I'll be carted into the nearest I.C.U.

Are 40 SOLID minutes of basketball to much to ask for?

[FerryFor50]

I'm just thankful I've got excellent medical coverage. Before the end of this season I'll be carted into the nearest I.C.U.

Are 40 SOLID minutes of basketball to much to ask for?

They've done that several times this season. What, you want that EVERY game? Sheesh.

[Utley]

Lot of discussion about that over the last week+ and I agree. I think we need something to get us juiced out of the gates. A little floor slapping D early on might not be a bad idea!

It's as much that you know just doing what we've been doing isn't going to work if it's working that badly at this point in the season. It's great that this team's heart and offensive talent keeps saving us but it does seem like finding the right tweaks on d is the missing piece. Thi trapping d seems to work better and gives the team some extra juice. Sorry if this all has been hashed and re-hashed - I just don't know if I can't watch that first 30 again (maybe I should just tune in for the last ten and/or make 20 bets with opposing team fans like Throaty :).

[superdave]

Keys to the comeback:
- Duke's pressure (incl full-court). They finally found their defensive focus.


Is anyone opposed to Duke going to a full-court D early in games in order to get a lead? We're good at it, so why not employ it more regularly? I've been advocating full-court, traps and other defensive scheme curveballs all season, but we've only gone to them when down like vs. Miami, Unc and tonight.

[FerryFor50]

Is anyone opposed to Duke going to a full-court D early in games in order to get a lead? We're good at it, so why not employ it more regularly? I've been advocating full-court, traps and other defensive scheme curveballs all season, but we've only gone to them when down like vs. Miami, Unc and tonight.

And every time they did it they've come back and either won or tied the game.

Definitely should shake things up and start using it early.

[loran16]

Is anyone opposed to Duke going to a full-court D early in games in order to get a lead? We're good at it, so why not employ it more regularly? I've been advocating full-court, traps and other defensive scheme curveballs all season, but we've only gone to them when down like vs. Miami, Unc and tonight.

It works at least in part (and probably a good part) because opponents A. aren't expecting it and B. have been facing the standard D all game. Going to it at the start ruins both possibilities.

[FerryFor50]

It works at least in part (and probably a good part) because opponents A. aren't expecting it and B. have been facing the standard D all game. Going to it at the start ruins both possibilities.

Standard D is man to man. Press is man to man extended out to full court. How is it THAT much different?

Force the other team to beat you ALL the way down the court. Not just half of the court.

[cspan37421]

Boy am I glad I wasn't around to contribute to the in-game thread.

I hope this season isn't putting accelerated wear on Coach K, but I fear it is. It seems he is having to really get after these guys a lot, and that's something he seldom has to worry about. I don't want to say they're not playing hard for up to 40 min (31-33 tonight) - I cannot know - but that seems to be the perception. I would much rather believe it's just a matter of height, speed, on the short end of hot/cold shooting, and other non-heart things, and that the consequences of those deficiencies make it look like a lack of effort at times. But I don't know. If it was stuff largely out of their control, would K still yell at them?

[jipops]

Is anyone opposed to Duke going to a full-court D early in games in order to get a lead? We're good at it, so why not employ it more regularly? I've been advocating full-court, traps and other defensive scheme curveballs all season, but we've only gone to them when down like vs. Miami, Unc and tonight.

I think K has picked his spots in going with it, and many times it may have been out of near necessity. But I'm not sold on this being something we should go with on a regular basis. I'm not sure we have the overall team speed to make it continually effective. However, throwing it out there in spots may work.

[FerryFor50]

Boy am I glad I wasn't around to contribute to the in-game thread.

I hope this season isn't putting accelerated wear on Coach K, but I fear it is. It seems he is having to really get after these guys a lot, and that's something he seldom has to worry about. I don't want to say they're not playing hard for up to 40 min (31-33 tonight) - I cannot know - but that seems to be the perception. I would much rather believe it's just a matter of height, speed, on the short end of hot/cold shooting, and other non-heart things, and that the consequences of those deficiencies make it look like a lack of effort at times. But I don't know. If it was stuff largely out of their control, would K still yell at them?

From what I saw tonight he wasn't doing a lot of yelling at his players. They put in the effort. The shots just didn't fall early and then later they did.

And he fixed the defensive issues by setting up the late full court press.

[Greg_Newton]

This team is what it is, but wow... got to enjoy weeks like this. They don't come around that often.

This could end up being a huge week for us going forward... I love the confidence and determination you can hear in the guys when they talk about how they always believed they could win. Or we could continue to be inconsistent and flame out early. Either way, I'm just happy to enjoy tonight. :cool:

[Bojangles4Eva]

The energy and execution of this team is a freaking sine wave, and it stresses me out to no end.

We have had some brilliant end-game scenarios this year, but I don't like making this a pattern. We should be able to aviod it with our talent level, but it seems like our team is suceptable to many a downward spiral (as in a more than 10 pt swing in a matter of minutes), but thankfully only one late in the game that has cost us (FSU, I do not consider the 0-6 from FT in OT vs Miami because if the catastrophe in the first half could have been slightly mitigated we probably would have won in regulation). I hope we can turn it around, but I'll admit it has made for some entertaining games.

Really feel bad for State though, and I hope this doesn't cause an unravelling, because the conference really needs to end the season strong. Here's to hoping this adds motivation for them to knock off FSU and obliterate carolina in the next week.

[Exiled_Devil]

Is anyone opposed to Duke going to a full-court D early in games in order to get a lead? We're good at it, so why not employ it more regularly? I've been advocating full-court, traps and other defensive scheme curveballs all season, but we've only gone to them when down like vs. Miami, Unc and tonight.

We don't have the personnel to start full court - it would tire out key players too soon and leave the team open to a come-back by the opponent. And thinking back to the 2001 team, this team is not that good at full court*. Granted, 2001 started 5 NBA players and two retired jerseys. Battier orchestrated that full court press incredibly well. Ahh. Bygones.


*this could be because they weren't trying to run a trapping full court press, like 2001. I would need to go back and look again at the press to check that.

[Billy Dat]

As a fan since the early 80s I have a solid history of watching Duke teams develop throughout a season.
I am a long time DBR reader and infrequent poster. Tonight's game has drawn me to post.

There is a typical feel to many K teams - and those traits have been well discussed by this forum, so no need to repeat them. That said, This is a very intriguing team - wins over many top teams in Div 1 this year - and then that crazy team I don't recognize shows up every now and then??? The losses follow a non K-era Duke team pattern - struggling with defense which shows up as the dreaded 50% plus opponent FG%, with the offensive firepower drowned out by the challenges on the defensive end. Tonight's example - half #1.

Then there is that diamond in the rough (but clearly there in the Kenpom stats) offense. Points go up in a hurry, huh? Even more impressive when you consider there is no "one guy" doing it game in and game out. Any one of five one six guys can pick up the yoke of the offense and get this team rolling. That is fun (and yet sometimes frustrating) to watch. Tonight's example - half #2.

I say all that to lead to this: I really like this team. They are a top 10 team at a minimum. It is frustrating when that odd ball team takes the court, and yet glorious when they put it all together like the majority of the year, and importantly the last 10 minutes tonight and the last 3 minutes last minutes last Thurs (GTHC). I am enjoying the ride. Don't get me wrong - the first 30 minutes tonight were maddening. But that made the final 10 so special.

There is no doubt this team has things to work on and plenty of room for improvement. Keep the faith Duke fans. The season has much to cherish. Just take a deep breath and buckle up. Love the journey the team is taking. Appreciate the hall of fame coach working to put the pieces together. Keep some perspective in the criticism of our tied for the ACC lead, top 5ish to 10ish team. They deserve our support!

Go Duke!

Great post, this is pretty much exactly how I feel. I love the depiction of the "odd" or "crazy" team that shows up for stretches. I agree that viewed through the normal K team lens, this team is completely exasperating...so you have to change the lens...just let them wash over you and try to go with the flow. We have mounted huge comebacks in 3 of the last 4 games...we didn't quite get there against Miami but it was still exciting, if also maddening. The way we play at home is completely foreign. The defense comes and goes. The offense scores but isn't fluid. Even in games like this, when we can't seem to hit a shot or get a stop that mattered for the first 30 minutes, we somehow pull it out - Curry carries our offense, Rivers runs right alongside him, State fouls out and tightens up - it makes no sense. This Duke team makes no sense, but we're 21-4, so whatever - maybe making sense will have to be a nice-to-have but not a must-have this year.

[sagegrouse]

We don't have the personnel to start full court - it would tire out key players too soon and leave the team open to a come-back by the opponent. And thinking back to the 2001 team, this team is not that good at full court*. Granted, 2001 started 5 NBA players and two retired jerseys. Battier orchestrated that full court press incredibly well. Ahh. Bygones.


*this could be because they weren't trying to run a trapping full court press, like 2001. I would need to go back and look again at the press to check that.

I don't agree. I think a selective full-court press could be effective. Duke has ten players who could be helpful, adding the quick Gbinije and the energetic Hariston to the mix. Not surprisingly, full-court pressure is more effective when the other team is wearing down -- so maybe a trial run late in the first half and more consistent pressure in the second half would be a good idea.

I ain't sayin' we haf to; I'm jes' sayin' it's a nother arrow in the quiver.

sagegrouse

[NYC Duke Fan]

Once again a poor performance at Cameron...at least in the first half. Duke will probably be a 2 seed and it would not be a great surprise if they did not survive the first weekend of the tournament.

[Billy Dat]

On Seth Curry’s injury
“I think it was a heroic performance by Seth because when he went out I thought he was gone, and Jose [Fonseca], our trainer, was just telling me that Seth said, ‘Man, I don’t know if I can go,’ and Jose said, ‘You have to go,’ and Seth said, ‘It hurts,’ and Jose said, ‘I’ll give you a shot.’ He only had five points at half time and he scored 21 in the second half. I mean thank goodness Jose helped him. That was a heroic performance by Seth. We’ll see where he is tomorrow before Boston College. We go up there Saturday after practice.

[hurleyfor3]

The 1990 team had a lot of games like this. Long stretches where it looked completely lost (Hurley turned the ball over A LOT as a frosh; Henderson was streaky from 3; Laettner wasn't as polished as in later years), then suddenly finding a spark and at times taking advantage of opponents' foul trouble and unforced errors. This continued through the postseason; every game after the first round of the NCAA tournament was an adventure. Strap in.

[Billy Dat]

Once again a poor performance at Cameron...at least in the first half. Duke will probably be a 2 seed and it would not be a great surprise if they did not survive the first weekend of the tournament.

Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski:

“That was an amazing win. They thoroughly outplayed us for about 29 minutes and then we thoroughly outplayed them for 11.They were really good, and we were great in the last 11 minutes. It was really one of the more amazing games that I’ve been a part of. I thought our fans were terrific. They never let us die, I thought it was one of those games in Cameron where the fans and the players were one, and I think that was a huge part of the basketball game. Seth [Curry] was incredible, they had a hard time defending him on the wing, and he was really strong with the ball, everyone thinks of him as a shooter, but he was really strong with the ball and made plays. He [Seth Curry] and Austin [Austin], we had a couple of things that kept working and we used our timeouts judiciously instead of four minute segments kind of going in two minute segments, but not to take full time outs, just to keep the momentum, but get squared away. We got it down to one possession with under five minutes and I think we called a timeout just to tell our guys don’t press anymore, just play solid defense just so we wouldn’t foul them. We’ve had a team that’s played so hard for six and a half, seven minutes like that, our kids were able to go to another mode and they did that. They came out of timeouts really, really well. It’s really a special win, wow, special win. It’s tough to say anything else.”

[UrinalCake]

The team needs to work on its fast break on the offensive end. In the first half we had a 4-on-1 break. Austin kept the ball himself and committed a charge. In the UNC game there were two or three cases where we had a 2-on-1 and we passed the ball out to shoot three pointers, all of which we missed. Even though we were down in those instances, I think you need to take the automatic two points.

[Billy Dat]

For a long time this season, I thought a lot of the "lack of interest" in the team was because it wasn't special in any kind of way. But, this past stretch of games, since the failed but nearly heroic comeback against Miami, they have proven that they have some kind of IT. Right now, IT is mostly that it won't quit and it stays calm through adversity, really important qualities. Plus, they don't seem afraid of the moment. I think every team needs to be enjoyed moment to moment - game to game - but this one is especially that way because if you try and take the long view, your going to make your head hurt. March is close, but it's not here yet. Let's keep it on the horizon for a moment and go up to BC and get a win - our 23rd.

[ThePublisher]

We were assisted by a barrage of fouls on state early in the second, but they shut down that run. This team really has a lot of resolve and will always believe... The can win. We didn't believe this against Florida st or Miami.

[sporthenry]

Actually, I hope they were watching something else because they don't deserve to have watched our team do what they just did. Real fans don't say the things I saw posted here an hour ago.

I completely disagree with this. I haven't gone through the whole in-game thread but many of those guys are some of the more dedicated fans here. As another poster mentioned, that is why he waited till after to post and that is a completely reasonable thing to do but to say anything positive about this team at the half would just be lying. Heck, K probably would have said worse than anything on here so I see no problem. Personally, I'm with anon that we need the people to continue posting negative things but if I was to post at halftime, I would probably share a similar sentiment b/c this team doesn't seem to get any wake up calls. We keep expecting them to turn the corner as Duke did in 2010 but they are still struggling.

Yes, they show heart and I'm slowly buying into this team but they can't continue to do this and expect similar outcomes. Do this in March, and we'll be home before the first weekend. But I don't think we should really get into a pissing contest about who is the best fan b/c some fan overreacts to a half.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Just got home from the game! Have stuff to do before going to bed (besides posting a bunch), then I get up at 6 to leave ~7 a.m. for Ft. Lauderdale.

Who besides me thought we'd win the game when we were down 61-41? Show of hands please? Didn't think so. When it was 61-41 with Seth Curry going to the line for 3 shots, I turned to Talklady and said "this game is NOT over". About that time I also texted DD that "We Suck!". (That was strategy!) Curry calmly sank 3 to pull us within 17, and I told Talklady "see, now we're only down 17 and no time went off the clock!" Of course, y'all know we won 78-73. I love being right! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/happy/bouncyblue.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/16.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

Never give up! Never, ever give up! Jim Valvano would be proud of us for last night. Not so much with his State team. http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/16.gif

[Kedsy]

Wow. Third game in four that we've pulled off AMAZING comebacks. You have to love that the team never quits. Great defense by Duke in the last 11 minutes. I'm really pumped up after watching that.

And only five (5) turnovers in the game? That's impressive.


My problem is I over-react and think too much in terms of the future (how we will play in March)

The thing is, you can't look at what they're doing now and predict how they'll play in March, one way or the other. This team lately actually reminds me a little of UNC last year, who continually allowed mediocre teams to run out to leads and then fought back and won a bunch of close games against lesser teams. And then they made the Final Eight, and almost made the Final Four. You just never know.


Once again a poor performance at Cameron...at least in the first half. Duke will probably be a 2 seed and it would not be a great surprise if they did not survive the first weekend of the tournament.

What I don't get is what anybody achieves by predicting failure, especially when speaking about something that nobody can predict accurately.


I completely disagree with this. I haven't gone through the whole in-game thread but many of those guys are some of the more dedicated fans here.

If you haven't gone through that thread, I don't see how you could "completely disagree." I did go through the entire thread, and it was disgusting. And, frankly, most of the worst offenders are the same posters who say ridiculously negative things in almost every in-game thread. The same people who trashed the team in the UNC in-game thread and the Miami in-game thread. I guess they can't help themselves. It's like they have Tourette's or something (and I apologize to people with Tourette's if they feel insulted by my comparison to these DBR in-game posters).

[loldevilz]

This team is absolutely fascinating. Its crazy how this team can turn it on when they are motivated. It leaves you speechless.

I loved how Coach K refused to talk about our lackluster start. For all this team's weaknesses, we have so much offensive firepower. Dawkins, Rivers, and Curry are just tremendous scorers and when they get hot, Duke seems unbeatable. The Plumlees, Kelly and Hairston give you enough in the frontcourt to keep you even on the boards and they can defend the basket. I can't wait for march.

[dcdevil2009]

Personally, I'm with anon that we need the people to continue posting negative things but if I was to post at halftime, I would probably share a similar sentiment b/c this team doesn't seem to get any wake up calls. We keep expecting them to turn the corner as Duke did in 2010 but they are still struggling.

Yes, they show heart and I'm slowly buying into this team but they can't continue to do this and expect similar outcomes. Do this in March, and we'll be home before the first weekend. But I don't think we should really get into a pissing contest about who is the best fan b/c some fan overreacts to a half.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't remember the 2010 tea, really turning a corner. Yeah, we got better once Z started playing big minutes, but we were pretty predictable on the year. IIRC, we dominated at home and true neutral-site games (WVU in the tourney, in MSG against Gonzaga and UConn, and in Cameron) and struggled in road games and hostile neutral-site games, but for the most part you knew which team had come to play within the first 5-10 minutes. Our home/away record against the spread backs up this distinction. That was one of my favorite seasons as a fan because it was the only time in recent memory where we went in with modest expectations and obviously exceeded them. unlike other years where it has been final four or bust, coming into the 09-10 season I felt like anything beyond the sweet 16 was gravy and 2010-2011 with Kyrie and senior Nolan and Kyle was our title shot.

This year, on the other hand, has been more of a roller coaster. Although a lot of analysts pegged us as an elite 8 ceiling team, we've got the talent and experience to make a deeper run. We started hot, but even in our early games we didn't play a consistent game of great basketball (with the possible exception of Kansas, where some bad possessions were saved by late shot clock heroics by Tyler and others). The only difference I've seen against Miami and State is that in those games we played poorly in the first half, then decent, then great to close the game is that we'd play solid first halves, build big leads in the second, then play poorly and let teams back in. I don't mean stall ball in the end, we had a lot of failed stall ball possession late in game where we didn't run clock or score, Michigan comes to mind in particular. I guess the silver lining is that we've done enough to win or be in position to win in all but two of our games. I'm just concerned that the tournament is about a month away and we're still struggling to put together a complete game at a high level.

[sporthenry]

'If you haven't gone through that thread, I don't see how you could "completely disagree." I did go through the entire thread, and it was disgusting. And, frankly, most of the worst offenders are the same posters who say ridiculously negative things in almost every in-game thread. The same people who trashed the team in the UNC in-game thread and the Miami in-game thread. I guess they can't help themselves. It's like they have Tourette's or something (and I apologize to people with Tourette's if they feel insulted by my comparison to these DBR in-game posters).

B/c I've saw enough. I came in at halftime and agreed with some of what people were saying. I'm sure there were some fans afterwards that went a bit over the top, but honestly, even Ozzie was a bit skeptical we could win. I mean we all watched the second half b/c we had hope, but honestly, if we don't pick it up, we will be seeing DBR shut down around March 19th this year. We all know K and Duke so we think we always have a chance, but again, how is criticizing a team that played that first half a bad thing? I think some fans just overreact at certain points in game b/c thats what happens as a fan. I won't condone the whole, we need x or y to commit, b/c I don't, but I just don't think we get anywhere calling out how much of a fan someone is b/c you had hope when we were down 20 while others take out their frustration on a board.

I would have similar sentiments in the UNC board or even the Miami game. And all it takes is one Miami game and there goes our season. Call me a terrible fan then, but again I think K would agree that he is not very happy with this team. If a fan called out our team after St. Johns, we would criticize them, yet K said it felt as a loss. And yes, some fans just love to be miserable, but for the most part, I don't think all of us love being this upset.

[JNort]

Tonight's game is a good example of why you should not post in the in-game threads during game time (10 people have suddenly taken a holiday break). Not to sound like I am gloating because I certainly am not but I never thought we were out of it. Things looked grim but I was waiting for the fouls to rack up on State and our shots to finally go down. State is incredibly talented for a starting 5 but the bench is bad. Next year I think they finally make that step into the top 25 if Leslie stays.

This team has plenty of issues (who doesn't this year?) especially on defense but there is a few bright spots. These guys have show a lot of toughness and resilience in the last few games. Against Miami we were down bad but fought back and took them to overtime and an eventual loss but they gave it their all. Against UNC we were down 10 with 2 mins to go against one of the top teams and on the road ad we won. Next up was a bad Maryland team and the game was close at 50-53 Duke and we won that also 55-73. Now tonight we were down 20 to a very motivated NC State team who has to win 1 of the next 3 games to make the tournament and is playing for their lives (tourny lives).

Should we have been in those positions (outside of the UNC game)? No we probably shouldn't have but we were and the guys responded very well. I know people on here are saying we have no leader which I think was true earlier in the year but now I think that problem has been for the most part solved. Quinn, Tyler, Seth, Andre and Miles are all very vocal on the court and pull everyone together very well. Austin I think comes across as the teams best leader but does it more by example in the fact he stays calm under pressure and puts up the numbers to boot. Anyone else see Austin's floor slap tonight?!?!? :D

[roywhite]

Quick thoughts the morning after:

5 Turnovers for Duke the whole game---I can't remember so few; that certainly helped
Seth Curry---that's the most aggressive I've seen him with the ball; he not only shot well in the second half, he drove really well
Coach K as a bench coach this game---outstanding; he helped the team weather the NC State runs; kept them together, and used timeouts and substitutions well
Austin Rivers---what a competitor; he wants the ball in the clutch and makes great plays

[Dev11]

I did go through the entire thread, and it was disgusting. And, frankly, most of the worst offenders are the same posters who say ridiculously negative things in almost every in-game thread. The same people who trashed the team in the UNC in-game thread and the Miami in-game thread.

I read most of the threads on the board, but I would generally recommend staying away from the in-game threads once the game starts (you can't ignore them before the game, otherwise you'd miss all the griping about why people 1600 miles from Durham can't watch the game!...grumble grumble ACC network grumble grumble...). Find yourself a couple Duke fans to watch the game with and just turn off the DBR until the game ends. It helps calm the maddening emotions.

[mgtr]

I read most of the threads on the board, but I would generally recommend staying away from the in-game threads once the game starts (you can't ignore them before the game, otherwise you'd miss all the griping about why people 1600 miles from Durham can't watch the game!...grumble grumble ACC network grumble grumble...).

This is probably the best strategy so far. I made the mistake of reading the in-game thread at halftime, and it was a real downer.
I kept waiting for a post from Chicken Little. I nearly posted something (about feeding the post more), but decided to wait and see
what actually happened. Glad that I waited.

[camion]

Just got home from the game! Have stuff to do before going to bed (besides posting a bunch), then I get up at 6 to leave ~7 a.m. for Ft. Lauderdale.

Who besides me thought we'd win the game when we were down 61-41? Show of hands please? Didn't think so. When it was 61-41 with Seth Curry going to the line for 3 shots, I turned to Talklady and said "this game is NOT over". About that time I also texted DD that "We Suck!". (That was strategy!) Curry calmly sank 3 to pull us within 17, and I told Talklady "see, now we're only down 17 and no time went off the clock!" Of course, y'all know we won 78-73. I love being right!

Never give up! Never, ever give up! Jim Valvano would be proud of us for last night. Not so much with his State team.



I'm not sure why, but I never thought the game was out of reach. I just kept waiting for us to stop playing like crud. And we did.

I was looking for a "Never give up, never surrender!!" graphic, but stumbled on this instead. It has nothing to do with the game, but here it is.

[lotusland]

Lot of discussion about that over the last week+ and I agree. I think we need something to get us juiced out of the gates. A little floor slapping D early on might not be a bad idea!

I really don't want to see this team slapping the floor until they have some defensive chops to summon. They need to establish themselved before they show any swagger. I'm not trying to dog them but they need to be humble, work hard and get better on defense. It won't just happen because someone slaps the floor.

[arnie]

I read most of the threads on the board, but I would generally recommend staying away from the in-game threads once the game starts (you can't ignore them before the game, otherwise you'd miss all the griping about why people 1600 miles from Durham can't watch the game!...grumble grumble ACC network grumble grumble...). Find yourself a couple Duke fans to watch the game with and just turn off the DBR until the game ends. It helps calm the maddening emotions.

For laughs try PackPride - 21 pages (as of now) on postgame and every post discusses in detail how the refs screwed them and the game was fixed. Another separate thread on how the refs screwed them and the game was fixed. State fans are much worse than Carolina fans.

[lotusland]

Is anyone opposed to Duke going to a full-court D early in games in order to get a lead? We're good at it, so why not employ it more regularly? I've been advocating full-court, traps and other defensive scheme curveballs all season, but we've only gone to them when down like vs. Miami, Unc and tonight.

Yes let's try something different.

[MCFinARL]

What I don't get is what anybody achieves by predicting failure, especially when speaking about something that nobody can predict accurately.

Well, it's expectation management--if you predict the worst, you can never be disappointed, and sometimes you will be pleasantly surprised. That being said, I would find it so unsatisfying to follow a team with the expectation of failure rather than the hope of success that I don't think I would be a fan in the first place.

[davekay1971]

For laughs try PackPride - 21 pages (as of now) on postgame and every post discusses in detail how the refs screwed them and the game was fixed. Another separate thread on how the refs screwed them and the game was fixed. State fans are much worse than Carolina fans.

Really? Having a sample size of one post-game message board read after a really shocking and (from their point of view) disappointing loss probably isn't the best way to judge a fan base.

I know a ton of State fans. Here's the general gist of them:
1) They're always loyal, but frustrated with how long their basketball has been light years behind their two main rivals
2) They have the intensity and passion of a guerrilla revolutionary army, which is kind of what they are being a distinct minority in their own state
3) They hate Carolina far more than we do
4) They do believe, with the conviction that I believe the sun will come up tomorrow, that the will be hosed by the refs whenever playing Duke or UNC
5) For the most part they believe they'll get hosed worse when playing Carolina...but still pretty badly when playing Duke
6) They respect K (I know isolated State fans have the same view of him that IC does, but I'm talking general terms)
7) They have none of the arrogance and self-righteousness that defines the Carolina fan base. There is no babbling about "The State Way"
8) They are a TON of fun to tailgate with

No fan base is going to look good on a message board following a loss like that. Just like our fan base didn't look too pretty on THIS message board during the first half.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

For laughs try PackPride - 21 pages (as of now) on postgame and every post discusses in detail how the refs screwed them and the game was fixed. Another separate thread on how the refs screwed them and the game was fixed. State fans are much worse than Carolina fans.

That first three or four minutes of the second half was bizarre. The whistles would not stop blowing. It is unusual for me to say this, but I feel like we did catch some breaks from the refs.

Richard Howell and Miles have something in common in that they seem to get whistled for a lot of ticky tack fouls. The refs almost look for fouls to call on guys like that. I think with bigs, it is actually a skill to foul without drawing attention to yourself. I think Zeller is someone who is really good at that.

[Misunderestimated]

I don't usually follow the in-game thread, but I did last night and it was an eye-opener. I'm not here to tell anyone how to be a fan of their team, but I can tell you this: Don't give up so easilly when your team is struggling. The victories and good times are that much sweeter when you've been there with them throughout. I saw multiple posts trashing players, saying "I'm done with this team"; "These players dont deserve to where Duke on their chest", etc. I wonder if these posters hold all aspects of their lives to as high of a standard as they do Duke Basketball....cause lets face it, as bball fans, we got it pretty good.... all things considered.

[oldnavy]

Really? Having a sample size of one post-game message board read after a really shocking and (from their point of view) disappointing loss probably isn't the best way to judge a fan base.

I know a ton of State fans. Here's the general gist of them:
1) They're always loyal, but frustrated with how long their basketball has been light years behind their two main rivals
2) They have the intensity and passion of a guerrilla revolutionary army, which is kind of what they are being a distinct minority in their own state
3) They hate Carolina far more than we do
4) They do believe, with the conviction that I believe the sun will come up tomorrow, that the will be hosed by the refs whenever playing Duke or UNC
5) For the most part they believe they'll get hosed worse when playing Carolina...but still pretty badly when playing Duke
6) They respect K (I know isolated State fans have the same view of him that IC does, but I'm talking general terms)
7) They have none of the arrogance and self-righteousness that defines the Carolina fan base. There is no babbling about "The State Way"
8) They are a TON of fun to tailgate with

No fan base is going to look good on a message board following a loss like that. Just like our fan base didn't look too pretty on THIS message board during the first half.


Nobody could be worse than UNC fans.... I agree with DK1971 assessment of NCSU fans.

About the game. I got so upset I went to bed BEFORE halftime. I am no less a fan for it, but it causes me pain, emotionally and nearly phyically to watch MY team play like they have in the first halfs of several of these games. It is better if I don't watch for myself and anyone in my presence. Having said that, we are now 2-0 with comebacks when I have shut off the game.... I think I will continue to do this.

This team drives me nuts!! I love them and I cuss them often withing seconds of each other. I think I need therapy, can I get Roy's massage therapist's number?

[wavedukefan70s]

I had to watch the game at work with two unc and two state fans:eek:.i never said a word,but i was the only one smiling at the end.

[bdevil94]

Nobody could be worse than UNC fans.... I agree with DK1971 assessment of NCSU fans.



Maryland fans are definitely worse... I remember being at an ACC tourney - 2002 I believe - with my parents, both Duke alums from the mid '60s. After parking, while walking to the stadium, MD fans tailgating made some pretty vulgar comments - 'F*** Duke! We're gonna slash your tires! etc. Look at this guy, stupid Duke fan has to hang out with OLD people!' To which I replied 'Dude, they're my parents! If yours had done a decent job with you, you wouldn't have had to go to MD!'

Made it all the sweeter when they lost early and flooded the market with their tickets, allowing me to get center court and (watch Duke win) for $20.

Everybody I know (except the MD fans I know here in DC) thinks MD, by far, has the worst fan base. Then again, that's in DC where there are less UNC fans! :cool:

[hq2]

We have had some brilliant end-game scenarios this year, but I don't like making this a pattern. We should be able to aviod it with our talent level, but it seems like our team is suceptable to many a downward spiral (as in a more than 10 pt swing in a matter of minutes), but thankfully only one late in the game that has cost us (FSU, I do not consider the 0-6 from FT in OT vs Miami because if the catastrophe in the first half could have been slightly mitigated we probably would have won in regulation). I hope we can turn it around, but I'll admit it has made for some entertaining games.

Exactly. These two games (State and Carolina) were entertaining, but they established a bad precedent; now, the team thinks they can badly for 30 minutes and still turn
it on in the last 10 minutes and win. That won't work in the NCAAs; at least, not in every game.

[Slackerb]

Just wanted to comment that the whistlefest after the halftime was incredible. I believe it was 11 fouls in 3 minutes or so.

Also, 48 total fouls. When was the last game that had that many? Definitely helped Duke to have a heavily officiated game...State's foul trouble was a key in them withering down the stretch, as it has been several times this year.

[stixof96]

The 1990 team had a lot of games like this. Long stretches where it looked completely lost (Hurley turned the ball over A LOT as a frosh; Henderson was streaky from 3; Laettner wasn't as polished as in later years), then suddenly finding a spark and at times taking advantage of opponents' foul trouble and unforced errors. This continued through the postseason; every game after the first round of the NCAA tournament was an adventure. Strap in.

I don't see any hurleys or laettners on this team......

[gumbomoop]

I'll admit there's probably some flaw in my logic here [which flaw several of you will surely be kind enough to point out.....], but from my point of view the comeback was all the more impressive given the fact that Mason [twice] and Miles [once] left 6 points somewhere in outer space with un-smart one-handed thunder dunk misses.

For a game such as last evening's, pointing to one of my pet peeves - said one-handed thunder dumbs - is perhaps not quite the right spirit, because the uplifting stuff was pretty amazing.

I so wish to know whether, among K's emphasis on "attention to detail," the guys are, uh, admonished for this unwise play, or whether when it so regularly happens it's just a routine "next play" response. Are they ever admonished about it in practice, when, presumably, "next play" is not the organizing principle? Does the staff include this crap-play on the individual film sessions with Miles and Mason?

For me, my in-game response is always, always, "!!&ybi!*&!*$##!@!, I sure hope we don't miss those 2 points at the end of this game." I said and thought that 3 times last evening. But we didn't miss those missed points. I'm amazed.

[lotusland]

Nobody could be worse than UNC fans.... I agree with DK1971 assessment of NCSU fans.

Having said that, we are now 2-0 with comebacks when I have shut off the game.... I think I will continue to do this.



Not so fast buddy. When the ACC stream went down it was I who switched to the game-tracker. I considered going to ESPNS3 when some DBR posters said it was available but I astutely observed that we had just cut the lead to 9-pts while I was following on the gametracker. Instinctively I kept following the gametracker throughout the comeback without attempting to revive the stream until the comeback was secure.

I might also add that I made several key in-game adjustments during the UNC comeback. I was actually disapointed that lotusland was not a MOM option after either win :D

[superdave]

I don't agree. I think a selective full-court press could be effective. Duke has ten players who could be helpful, adding the quick Gbinije and the energetic Hariston to the mix. Not surprisingly, full-court pressure is more effective when the other team is wearing down -- so maybe a trial run late in the first half and more consistent pressure in the second half would be a good idea.

I ain't sayin' we haf to; I'm jes' sayin' it's a nother arrow in the quiver.

sagegrouse

I would not start in full court from the opening tip. I'd throw it out there for 3-4 possessions a couple of minutes into the game. I'd also throw a half-court trap and zone at teams for a couple of possessions at a time because it messes up a team's rhythm and it's another wrinkle they have to prepare for in practice.

This team is not a very good defensive team by Duke standards, but they have depth and athleticism and could benefit from changing things up a few possessions at a time so they dont grow complacent on D. And it would lead to some easy buckets and dunks. This team fancies dunking.

[roywhite]

I'll admit there's probably some flaw in my logic here [which flaw several of you will surely be kind enough to point out.....], but from my point of view the comeback was all the more impressive given the fact that Mason [twice] and Miles [once] left 6 points somewhere in outer space with un-smart one-handed thunder dunk misses.

For a game such as last evening's, pointing to one of my pet peeves - said one-handed thunder dumbs - is perhaps not quite the right spirit, because the uplifting stuff was pretty amazing.

I so wish to know whether, among K's emphasis on "attention to detail," the guys are, uh, admonished for this unwise play, or whether when it so regularly happens it's just a routine "next play" response. Are they ever admonished about it in practice, when, presumably, "next play" is not the organizing principle? Does the staff include this crap-play on the individual film sessions with Miles and Mason?

For me, my in-game response is always, always, "!!&ybi!*&!*$##!@!, I sure hope we don't miss those 2 points at the end of this game." I said and thought that 3 times last evening. But we didn't miss those missed points. I'm amazed.

As pet peeves go, yours is pretty reasonable.

My pet peeve is when Tyler Thornton initiates the offense at 20+ feet away out front, and then proceeds to back up to 30 plus feet away.
Last night there was a great remedy to that problem; down the stretch, Seth Curry and Austin Rivers took over control of the ball and made things happen.
It was something to watch.

[Kedsy]

I read most of the threads on the board, but I would generally recommend staying away from the in-game threads once the game starts

I didn't actually read the in-game thread until after the game was over. That didn't make it less disgusting.


B/c I've saw enough. I came in at halftime and agreed with some of what people were saying. I'm sure there were some fans afterwards that went a bit over the top, but honestly, even Ozzie was a bit skeptical we could win. I mean we all watched the second half b/c we had hope, but honestly, if we don't pick it up, we will be seeing DBR shut down around March 19th this year. We all know K and Duke so we think we always have a chance, but again, how is criticizing a team that played that first half a bad thing? I think some fans just overreact at certain points in game b/c thats what happens as a fan. I won't condone the whole, we need x or y to commit, b/c I don't, but I just don't think we get anywhere calling out how much of a fan someone is b/c you had hope when we were down 20 while others take out their frustration on a board.

I would have similar sentiments in the UNC board or even the Miami game. And all it takes is one Miami game and there goes our season. Call me a terrible fan then, but again I think K would agree that he is not very happy with this team. If a fan called out our team after St. Johns, we would criticize them, yet K said it felt as a loss. And yes, some fans just love to be miserable, but for the most part, I don't think all of us love being this upset.

I'm not "calling out how much of a fan someone is," nor do I take exception to people losing hope that we would win. When we got it down to 11 and then it popped right back up to 20, I lost hope for a couple of minutes. But making hyperbolic statements about how bad the team is and how they'll never win an NCAAT game and making personal attacks against individual players? It may somehow make posters feel better to vent like that on a public forum, but I don't think it serves any legitimate purpose.

[Kedsy]

On a basketball note, I think one of the best things to come out of this game was the way Andre played. People have been down on his defense, but I thought he did a really good job last night. Also, he rebounded, came up with a couple steals, went to the floor several times for loose balls, and still managed to have our highest percentage from three-range, even though he only had 9 points.

Hopefully, he'll sustain that sort of effort going forward.

[Reilly]

... I know a ton of State fans. Here's the general gist of them:...
3) They hate Carolina far more than we do....

Why I've always had a soft spot for them.

We've done the heavy lifting in hoops, and they've done the heavy lifting in football here recently, and while we're not under one supreme command, we both fight the good fight each in our own way.

[-bdbd]

Not so fast buddy. When the ACC stream went down it was I who switched to the game-tracker. I considered going to ESPNS3 when some DBR posters said it was available but I astutely observed that we had just cut the lead to 9-pts while I was following on the gametracker. Instinctively I kept following the gametracker throughout the comeback without attempting to revive the stream until the comeback was secure.

I might also add that I made several key in-game adjustments during the UNC comeback. I was actually disapointed that lotusland was not a MOM option after either win :D

Good thinking Lotus!!
I saw all of these people on here wanting to give K all of the credit for the two comebacks, but I just knew that it belonged elsewhere...
Good work.


:rolleyes:

;)

[superdave]

Just got home from the game! Have stuff to do before going to bed (besides posting a bunch), then I get up at 6 to leave ~7 a.m. for Ft. Lauderdale.

Who besides me thought we'd win the game when we were down 61-41? Show of hands please? Didn't think so. When it was 61-41 with Seth Curry going to the line for 3 shots, I turned to Talklady and said "this game is NOT over". About that time I also texted DD that "We Suck!". (That was strategy!) Curry calmly sank 3 to pull us within 17, and I told Talklady "see, now we're only down 17 and no time went off the clock!" Of course, y'all know we won 78-73. I love being right! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/happy/bouncyblue.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/16.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

Never give up! Never, ever give up! Jim Valvano would be proud of us for last night. Not so much with his State team. http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/16.gif

I have to say I felt pretty good the whole time because of State's thin bench and their foul trouble. I never thought we were out of it, but I was pretty discouraged we were jacking up so many 3s and not getting to the rim. We could have fouled out State's front line twice over had we driven more.

[dukeballboy88]

As pet peeves go, yours is pretty reasonable.

My pet peeve is when Tyler Thornton initiates the offense at 20+ feet away out front, and then proceeds to back up to 30 plus feet away.
Last night there was a great remedy to that problem; down the stretch, Seth Curry and Austin Rivers took over control of the ball and made things happen.
It was something to watch.

This is why I want the ball in Austins hands more. Him coming off that high ball screen going downhill is something I would not want to see as a defender. He did it a couple of times last night and got in the lane, jump stopped and found the open man. I was like, if he developes that part of his game he could be a top 5 pick and Duke will go far in the tourney!

[sagegrouse]

I have to say I felt pretty good the whole time because of State's thin bench and their foul trouble. I never thought we were out of it, but I was pretty discouraged we were jacking up so many 3s and not getting to the rim. We could have fouled out State's front line twice over had we driven more.

Ms. Sage Grouse got to hear me say more than once, "If we can get State down to the walk-ons, I think we'll win."

sage

[moonpie23]

Maryland fans are definitely worse.

negative.......md fans hate us, but it's not from the attitude that they DESERVE to beat us...

tarhole fans ALWAYS think they SHOULD be the winner.....regardless of whether or not they WON the game...

like it's their frickin birthright or something...

[tbyers11]

Just wanted to comment that the whistlefest after the halftime was incredible. I believe it was 11 fouls in 3 minutes or so.

Also, 48 total fouls. When was the last game that had that many? Definitely helped Duke to have a heavily officiated game...State's foul trouble was a key in them withering down the stretch, as it has been several times this year.

It was 9 fouls in the first 4 minutes of the half. 4 on NC State and 5 on Duke. It did seem especially whistle happy but looking back almost all seemed like legit calls.

I'm working from memory here with a boxscore so I apologize if I misconstrue something.
19:04 - 4th foul on NCST Williams - I remember this as a handcheck on a Duke player (Curry?) driving to the basket. Pretty legit
17:56 - 3rd foul on NCST Howell - Scramble for a loose ball but Howell definitely appeared to push Rivers (IIRC) in the back
17:42 - 2nd foul on NCST Wood - Called for holding Curry working off the ball trying to get open. This one seemed ticky-tack to me but Dawkins got called for a foul guarding Wood in the 1st half on an almost identical play
17:25- 2nd foul on DUKE Thornton - Scramble for a loose ball after Thornton had tipped it away. IMO, foul call could have gone either way and probably should have been a no call with Thornton being called for kicking the ball
17:12 - 3rd foul on DUKE Thornton - Tyler tried to step in front of Wood off the ball and draw a charge. Correct call on Thornton
17:05 - 3rd foul on NCST Leslie - He was over Kelly's back on a rebound. Seemed to me the ref waited a beat to see if the contact actually affected Kelly getting the rebound. If it hadn't he would have swallowed the whistle.
16:49 - 2nd foul on DUKE Hairston - I don't remember this one. Depending on your rooting interest it was either a good or bad call :)
16:28 - 2nd foul on DUKE Kelly - Don't remember this one either.
16:13 - 3rd foul on DUKE Kelly - He seemed to have his arms straight up and didn't lean in against Painter after DeShawn got an OReb and put up a shot attempt. Iffy call.

The only calls I really found iffy where the hold on Wood and Kelly's 3rd. So there were a lot of fouls called early in the 2nd half and it put some key NC State players in serious foul trouble but the calls seemed legit to me and not a conspiracy against NCST (not that I am saying that you are claiming this) as some NCST fans and "media" like Gottlieb are claiming.

I totally agree that a closely whistled game hurt NC State more than Duke. In fact, with 3 key NCST players in foul trouble at half, I am sure that the Duke staff told their players to be extra aggressive in the 2nd half and were hoping for a whistle fest. Best way to make a comeback is to score from the line with the clock stopped. NC State was definitely the more aggressive team in the first half playing tightly on Duke's shooters at the 3 point line and forcing them to drive and attempting to block a lot of shots on those drives. It knocked Duke back on their heels but also incurred fouls.

As for total foul count, my box score shows 45 for last night's game. Duke last five games (before NCST) have had 45, 33, 41, 47 and 41 calls. NC State's last five games (before Duke) have had 29, 31, 25, 32, and 31 fouls. So from the Duke view last night's foul totals were not an outlier but from the Wolfpack point of view they were. Duke tends to foul more than a lot of teams (even more so this year) and if the refs want to have a closely called game the totals will rise quickly.

[UrinalCake]

My early Christmas wish list:

- Attack the rim! Austin and Seth need to stay aggressive and not settle for threes, especially when our opponents are in foul trouble. The Plumlees need more touches.
- Look for the bigs off the screen and roll. SEVERAL times we'd have a guy wide open cutting towards the basket for an alley-oop or even a pass and dunk but the guard never looked for him.
- Kelly, man up and play some real D! Quit putting your hands at your waist, falling over, then pleading to the ref when you don't get the call. You're capable of playing good straight-up D.
- No more one-handed dunks from the Plumlees. Ever.
- Defend the back-door passes coming out of the high post. They burned us two or three times in the first half, but we adjusted and covered those plays in the second.
- Keep up the defensive intensity! Our best defense came in the last few minutes while we finally took the lead. Caused some turnovers and quick shots and then rebounded. If we can do that all game we're a great team.

[dukelifer]

I like a few others decided to turn off the game when Duke got down by 20. 20 points in 11 minutes seemed like to big a hill to climb. I saw this as State playing out of their heads and Duke getting shell shocked. Should not have happened but it did. Regular season championship probably over- time to prepare for March. Night over. Much to my surprise, the radio woke me with the news that Duke won by 5. I was sure the announcer was wrong and State won- but no Duke pulled it out again.

This team continues to frustrate the fan in me. They should be more consistent- they should play better team defense - but this is the third comeback of this type in a few weeks. It made me think that maybe this team plays much better when they do not have to think and just play. Yes - the other team has to basically shut down- but big runs come in every game. Duke is built for the big comebacks. They have two deadly standstill shooters in Curry and Dawkins. Both have hit big shots in the past in critical games and Curry has shot lights out before in comebacks (see UNC at Duke last year). Rivers apparently likes the big moment- he helped to bring Duke back against Miami and of course hit the winner against UNC. This team has three guards who can shoot extremely well from very deep when it counts. You can even throw Thornton in there who has hit several big threes at the end of the game. In all these games- the players have attacked and just played. But if you put them in structure-ask them to talk on D- they seem to get confused. Make Curry a passer - his scoring suffers. Ask Dawkins to defend- he struggles to get in the offensive flow. Ask them to slow it down- they let teams back. But play from behind or in a close game down the stretch- they fuel each other. I am not sure that this team will go far in March - but any team that has a big lead on them is going to be nervous and Duke is going to be confident they can win it. Winning close games and coming back from big deficits is the mark of a very difficult team to play in March.

[PADukeMom]

In the past 2 weeks I have broken 2 tv remotes, 1 cell phone & 2 cordless phones. The last time I did that was in 2010. I am really proud that our guys never gave up & stopped playing although at one point it looked like K had stopped coaching for a bit. Guess he was frustrated.

I love Ty but dang...but what's with fouling on the 3 point line with seconds to go??? Great comeback but we really do need to stop sporting these huge leads. Kudos to the Crazies. Now that is what Cameron is supposed to sound like.

[Lid]

The cadences on TV made it sound like there were some nonstandard chants -- anyone at the game care to share what they were? Definitely sounded loud and lively!

[superdave]

It was 9 fouls in the first 4 minutes of the half. 4 on NC State and 5 on Duke. It did seem especially whistle happy but looking back almost all seemed like legit calls.

I'm working from memory here with a boxscore so I apologize if I misconstrue something.
19:04 - 4th foul on NCST Williams - I remember this as a handcheck on a Duke player (Curry?) driving to the basket. Pretty legit
17:56 - 3rd foul on NCST Howell - Scramble for a loose ball but Howell definitely appeared to push Rivers (IIRC) in the back
17:42 - 2nd foul on NCST Wood - Called for holding Curry working off the ball trying to get open. This one seemed ticky-tack to me but Dawkins got called for a foul guarding Wood in the 1st half on an almost identical play
17:25- 2nd foul on DUKE Thornton - Scramble for a loose ball after Thornton had tipped it away. IMO, foul call could have gone either way and probably should have been a no call with Thornton being called for kicking the ball
17:12 - 3rd foul on DUKE Thornton - Tyler tried to step in front of Wood off the ball and draw a charge. Correct call on Thornton
17:05 - 3rd foul on NCST Leslie - He was over Kelly's back on a rebound. Seemed to me the ref waited a beat to see if the contact actually affected Kelly getting the rebound. If it hadn't he would have swallowed the whistle.
16:49 - 2nd foul on DUKE Hairston - I don't remember this one. Depending on your rooting interest it was either a good or bad call :)
16:28 - 2nd foul on DUKE Kelly - Don't remember this one either.
16:13 - 3rd foul on DUKE Kelly - He seemed to have his arms straight up and didn't lean in against Painter after DeShawn got an OReb and put up a shot attempt. Iffy call.

The only calls I really found iffy where the hold on Wood and Kelly's 3rd. So there were a lot of fouls called early in the 2nd half and it put some key NC State players in serious foul trouble but the calls seemed legit to me and not a conspiracy against NCST (not that I am saying that you are claiming this) as some NCST fans and "media" like Gottlieb are claiming.

I totally agree that a closely whistled game hurt NC State more than Duke. In fact, with 3 key NCST players in foul trouble at half, I am sure that the Duke staff told their players to be extra aggressive in the 2nd half and were hoping for a whistle fest. Best way to make a comeback is to score from the line with the clock stopped. NC State was definitely the more aggressive team in the first half playing tightly on Duke's shooters at the 3 point line and forcing them to drive and attempting to block a lot of shots on those drives. It knocked Duke back on their heels but also incurred fouls.

As for total foul count, my box score shows 45 for last night's game. Duke last five games (before NCST) have had 45, 33, 41, 47 and 41 calls. NC State's last five games (before Duke) have had 29, 31, 25, 32, and 31 fouls. So from the Duke view last night's foul totals were not an outlier but from the Wolfpack point of view they were. Duke tends to foul more than a lot of teams (even more so this year) and if the refs want to have a closely called game the totals will rise quickly.


The announcers kept saying the refs were trying to get the game under control. Uhm, when and how was it out of control? Did I miss any technicals, flagrants, shoving contests or extreme weaufing? I dont think I did.

The refs were lousy and it's because they wanted to have a handle on the game rather than simply do their jobs. The announcers kept saying that there are three teams on the floor. That's one too many. No one pays to see the refs and the less we notice them the better they are at their jobs.

[lotusland]

Really? Having a sample size of one post-game message board read after a really shocking and (from their point of view) disappointing loss probably isn't the best way to judge a fan base.

I know a ton of State fans. Here's the general gist of them:
1) They're always loyal, but frustrated with how long their basketball has been light years behind their two main rivals
2) They have the intensity and passion of a guerrilla revolutionary army, which is kind of what they are being a distinct minority in their own state
3) They hate Carolina far more than we do
4) They do believe, with the conviction that I believe the sun will come up tomorrow, that the will be hosed by the refs whenever playing Duke or UNC
5) For the most part they believe they'll get hosed worse when playing Carolina...but still pretty badly when playing Duke
6) They respect K (I know isolated State fans have the same view of him that IC does, but I'm talking general terms)
7) They have none of the arrogance and self-righteousness that defines the Carolina fan base. There is no babbling about "The State Way"
8) They are a TON of fun to tailgate with

No fan base is going to look good on a message board following a loss like that. Just like our fan base didn't look too pretty on THIS message board during the first half.

I just check their board. The blame the refs sentiment is typical for any board including DBR. What surprised me is how many fans are talking about leaving the ACC for the SEC (because ACC league and game officials will always make sure Duke and Carolina win no matter what). I've seen speculation that the SEC might add NC State here and there but I really never thought fans from a tobacco road school would leave the ACC for the SEC. it doesn't make sense to me and I just don't understand why, from a state fans point or view, the SEC would possible seem like a better option. Maybe they would earn more $ to be a whipping boy in football but how does that help from a fan POV? Less competition in hoops maybe but fewer tournament bids to compete for and consider the travel time for road games. Hopefully the school administrators are not as short sighted as fans after a loss,

[lotusland]

The cadences on TV made it sound like there were some nonstandard chants -- anyone at the game care to share what they were? Definitely sounded loud and lively!

Didn't care for the loud BS chants. Can't the crazies come up with a more creative way to say "we don't agree with the call"?

I know it would probably exacerbate the blue-blood elitist stereotype but some John McEnroe-ish chants would be funnier like "Utterly ridiculous" "Preposterous call" or "Incompetent fool"

[flyingdutchdevil]

I like a few others decided to turn off the game when Duke got down by 20. 20 points in 11 minutes seemed like to big a hill to climb. I saw this as State playing out of their heads and Duke getting shell shocked. Should not have happened but it did. Regular season championship probably over- time to prepare for March. Night over. Much to my surprise, the radio woke me with the news that Duke won by 5. I was sure the announcer was wrong and State won- but no Duke pulled it out again.

This team continues to frustrate the fan in me. They should be more consistent- they should play better team defense - but this is the third comeback of this type in a few weeks. It made me think that maybe this team plays much better when they do not have to think and just play. Yes - the other team has to basically shut down- but big runs come in every game. Duke is built for the big comebacks. They have two deadly standstill shooters in Curry and Dawkins. Both have hit big shots in the past in critical games and Curry has shot lights out before in comebacks (see UNC at Duke last year). Rivers apparently likes the big moment- he helped to bring Duke back against Miami and of course hit the winner against UNC. This team has three guards who can shoot extremely well from very deep when it counts. You can even throw Thornton in there who has hit several big threes at the end of the game. In all these games- the players have attacked and just played. But if you put them in structure-ask them to talk on D- they seem to get confused. Make Curry a passer - his scoring suffers. Ask Dawkins to defend- he struggles to get in the offensive flow. Ask them to slow it down- they let teams back. But play from behind or in a close game down the stretch- they fuel each other. I am not sure that this team will go far in March - but any team that has a big lead on them is going to be nervous and Duke is going to be confident they can win it. Winning close games and coming back from big deficits is the mark of a very difficult team to play in March.

Great post. A few thoughts on my end:

1) As usual this year, Duke took Cameron for granted (in the first half).
2) I really like this team, but the inconsistency kills me.
3) I know Tyler sho0ts 38% from 3, which is amazing, but I still cringe every time he shots the 3. Maybe Tyler is only good at shooting 3s under crazy pressure?
4) Miles unfortunately isn't Zoubek 2.0. On Miles, he is so inconsistent.
5) We had no right winning that game. I love Duke and was happy for the win, but (nearly) felt equally as bad for State as the good that felt for the Devils.
6) Cameron Crazies got their $%&# together. WAY TO GO! You sounded awesome last night.
7) Curry and Rivers are such an exciting tandem. Next year, we need a nick name for the duet. How about the "Ganges" (Curry = India + River)? I know, terrible name. That's why no one asks me to come up with nicknames.
8) I love watching Dawkins play with emotion. How can we do that every game?
9) I am starting to build a really strong emotional attachment to this team (like every other team, but this one took longer). Rivers - and his "I-never-smile.-Not-even-at-cute-puppies" demeanor - is awesome. Surprised that he still isn't the most hated player to opposing fans.
10) This team isn't your average Duke "live-by-the-3-die-by-the-3" team. We have weapons. Lots of weapons.

[Saratoga2]

I like a few others decided to turn off the game when Duke got down by 20. 20 points in 11 minutes seemed like to big a hill to climb. I saw this as State playing out of their heads and Duke getting shell shocked. Should not have happened but it did. Regular season championship probably over- time to prepare for March. Night over. Much to my surprise, the radio woke me with the news that Duke won by 5. I was sure the announcer was wrong and State won- but no Duke pulled it out again.

This team continues to frustrate the fan in me. They should be more consistent- they should play better team defense - but this is the third comeback of this type in a few weeks. It made me think that maybe this team plays much better when they do not have to think and just play. Yes - the other team has to basically shut down- but big runs come in every game. Duke is built for the big comebacks. They have two deadly standstill shooters in Curry and Dawkins. Both have hit big shots in the past in critical games and Curry has shot lights out before in comebacks (see UNC at Duke last year). Rivers apparently likes the big moment- he helped to bring Duke back against Miami and of course hit the winner against UNC. This team has three guards who can shoot extremely well from very deep when it counts. You can even throw Thornton in there who has hit several big threes at the end of the game. In all these games- the players have attacked and just played. But if you put them in structure-ask them to talk on D- they seem to get confused. Make Curry a passer - his scoring suffers. Ask Dawkins to defend- he struggles to get in the offensive flow. Ask them to slow it down- they let teams back. But play from behind or in a close game down the stretch- they fuel each other. I am not sure that this team will go far in March - but any team that has a big lead on them is going to be nervous and Duke is going to be confident they can win it. Winning close games and coming back from big deficits is the mark of a very difficult team to play in March.

My takeaways from the game were:

1. Our front court has trouble with strong aggressive opponents and appear intimidated. We were getting totally out rebounded, yet Mason didn't pick up a single foul until well into the second half. Miles also was not getting it done and Kelly isn't known for his strength inside. I think coach K went to Hairston inside to get a more physical player involved and also to wear on the NCS front court. Mason seemed to wake up for the last quarter of the game, probably due to NCS foul trouble and fatigue, or maybe he just got into the flow. The NCS team is quick as well and that causes us difficulty.

2. It was difficult for me to understand why we don't involve Andre in a more substantial way in the offense. He only took 4 shots that I noted, although I missed the early part of the game. Curry got him one of his shots, so if the guard looks for him, there is an opportunity. Part of the problem is Andre himself. He has to be proactive about getting open and it would greater improve his offense if he gains enough confidence to put the baall on the floor at times. We had Quinn and others taking threes while Andre wasn't involved.

3. Hard to understand why our bigs have difficulty with dunks. Miles has the size and athleticism to be in a great position but went from excellent play against Maryland back to his less than stellar play against NCS. Comeon Miles, there are only about 10 games left in your career. Go for it now, you can do it.

[Class of '94]

Let's not go too far. State played us well, but they are not a tournament team.

If State doesn't win at home against either FSU or UNC (if not both) to get that signature win against a top 25 team, then State isn't a tournament team.

[Class of '94]

On a basketball note, I think one of the best things to come out of this game was the way Andre played. People have been down on his defense, but I thought he did a really good job last night. Also, he rebounded, came up with a couple steals, went to the floor several times for loose balls, and still managed to have our highest percentage from three-range, even though he only had 9 points.

Hopefully, he'll sustain that sort of effort going forward.

Excellent point Kedsy.....I thought Andre was more passionate and emitionally engaged (in a positive way) in this game than I've ever seen him play in any other game. Andre really stepped it in other areas beside shooting and it looked like he didn't let his offense negatively impact other areas of his game. I think K said in his press conference that he hopes Andre's play in the State game will show him that he can do other things beside shooting. Similarly, I thought Seth and Tyler were very emotional and passionale as well; and I thought passion and intensity contributed to lifting this team to a victory. If these guys continue to tap into that intensity and passion for a full 40 mintues, this team will be tough to beat in March.

[drcharl]

I like a few others decided to turn off the game when Duke got down by 20. 20 points in 11 minutes seemed like to big a hill to climb. I saw this as State playing out of their heads and Duke getting shell shocked. Should not have happened but it did. Regular season championship probably over- time to prepare for March. Night over. Much to my surprise, the radio woke me with the news that Duke won by 5. I was sure the announcer was wrong and State won- but no Duke pulled it out again.

This team continues to frustrate the fan in me. They should be more consistent- they should play better team defense - but this is the third comeback of this type in a few weeks. It made me think that maybe this team plays much better when they do not have to think and just play. Yes - the other team has to basically shut down- but big runs come in every game. Duke is built for the big comebacks. They have two deadly standstill shooters in Curry and Dawkins. Both have hit big shots in the past in critical games and Curry has shot lights out before in comebacks (see UNC at Duke last year). Rivers apparently likes the big moment- he helped to bring Duke back against Miami and of course hit the winner against UNC. This team has three guards who can shoot extremely well from very deep when it counts. You can even throw Thornton in there who has hit several big threes at the end of the game. In all these games- the players have attacked and just played. But if you put them in structure-ask them to talk on D- they seem to get confused. Make Curry a passer - his scoring suffers. Ask Dawkins to defend- he struggles to get in the offensive flow. Ask them to slow it down- they let teams back. But play from behind or in a close game down the stretch- they fuel each other. I am not sure that this team will go far in March - but any team that has a big lead on them is going to be nervous and Duke is going to be confident they can win it. Winning close games and coming back from big deficits is the mark of a very difficult team to play in March.

Agree with the "Duke is built for the big comebacks" comment. What a contrast to the Michigan State at Ohio State last weekend when Ohio State got into an early hole of 10-15 points behind and basically stated that way throughout the contest. Not even home court and some great talent helped Ohio State.

[ncexnyc]

Nobody could be worse than UNC fans.... I agree with DK1971 assessment of NCSU fans.

About the game. I got so upset I went to bed BEFORE halftime. I am no less a fan for it, but it causes me pain, emotionally and nearly phyically to watch MY team play like they have in the first halfs of several of these games. It is better if I don't watch for myself and anyone in my presence. Having said that, we are now 2-0 with comebacks when I have shut off the game.... I think I will continue to do this.

This team drives me nuts!! I love them and I cuss them often withing seconds of each other. I think I need therapy, can I get Roy's massage therapist's number?

Nice to see some honesty around here. After the Miami game I learned my lesson and hung with the team during the UNC game and last night's game. Ok, to be honest I burned 1/2 a vacation day for each so there wasn't much else to do, but there were plenty of Fbombs flying around the guest room , where I lock myself during games.:D Not sure how anybody can watch this team and not get upset with their play at times.

I think our stat friends should save their time and energy and forget all the lengthy analysis of this team, it is what it is, hit the mute button on the tv and turn on Bobby Mcferrin's, "Don't Worry, Be Happy." To cop a line from Lakeside, "Hey come on, come along and take a ride," this is shaping up to be some Fantastic Voyage.

[devildeac]

If State doesn't win at home against either FSU or UNC (if not both) to get that signature win against a top 25 team, then State isn't a tournament team.

I posted something similar on the unc/Miami thread (IIRC) that this week Lunardi had State as one of the "last 4 in" teams and Miami as one of the "last 4 out" and that I thought Miami had one of their "play-in" games vs unc on Wednesday. Fail.

State had a huge chance last PM. Fail, but we'll take that one. I believe you are correct about their games on the horizon vs unc and f$u. It they don't win 1 (both?) of those, then they may join Miami on the outside-looking-in list.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

This game more than any other in recent memory (even last week's comeback against kerlina) reminds me that...

There's no such thing as a bad win. And there's no such thing as a good loss.

Feel free to tear that to shreds...

[ThePublisher]

Even with the loss State showed the committee that they can knock back a top team pretty handily. They just fell apart after K put in the press and the refs starting calling everything.
It's amazing how State fans are blaming this loss on the refs. They had a total of 3 more fouls than us. They just have less depth so the fouls weren't as spread around. There were probably a couple of fouls that shouldn't have been called (one of Leslie's blocks comes to mind), but there were also ones for Duke. There was also the no-goaltending call on one of rivers shots that sure looked like it was going down to me. Just the nature of the game I guess, refs aren't perfect.
Bottom line is state had their chances but they just unraveled and couldn't hang.
K was genius to use the press consistently for the first time all season. Think we'll see some more of this? Yes...

[billy]

I was amazed at the sheer number of state fans at Cameron last night - both below the rail and above. Sat next to a couple - good conversation, happy to see a game at Cameron, knowledgeable.

Having been at the game, I was curious about two plays. Did anyone see on the TV replays whether Wood walked before being fouled late in the game on his three attempt? It appeared that Hairston was set up outside the "arc" but was called for a block on one of state's dunks - can't remember by whom - in the second half.

[superdave]

Even with the loss State showed the committee that they can knock back a top team pretty handily. They just fell apart after K put in the press and the refs starting calling everything.
It's amazing how State fans are blaming this loss on the refs. They had a total of 3 more fouls than us. They just have less depth so the fouls weren't as spread around. There were probably a couple of fouls that shouldn't have been called (one of Leslie's blocks comes to mind), but there were also ones for Duke. There was also the no-goaltending call on one of rivers shots that sure looked like it was going down to me. Just the nature of the game I guess, refs aren't perfect.
Bottom line is state had their chances but they just unraveled and couldn't hang.
K was genius to use the press consistently for the first time all season. Think we'll see some more of this? Yes...

State is currently 7-4 in conference. They almost have to beat either FSU or NC to get in. I do think they are more likely to win an ACC tourney upset over one the top 3 than a regular season game. Their big out of conference wins are over....Texas?

They are 5-3 on the road and 1-1 at neutral sites. But they almost have to get a big win and 10 wins in the ACC to get in, otherwise their resume is pretty weak. This is a team that could get hot and beat either FSU or NC, or make the ACC tourney finals. It's time for them to put up or shut up though. Important stretch ahead.

[oldnavy]

State is currently 7-4 in conference. They almost have to beat either FSU or NC to get in. I do think they are more likely to win an ACC tourney upset over one the top 3 than a regular season game. Their big out of conference wins are over....Texas?

They are 5-3 on the road and 1-1 at neutral sites. But they almost have to get a big win and 10 wins in the ACC to get in, otherwise their resume is pretty weak. This is a team that could get hot and beat either FSU or NC, or make the ACC tourney finals. It's time for them to put up or shut up though. Important stretch ahead.

Isn't UNC just 3-4 against top 25 teams?? They have loses to, FSU, DUKE, UNLV, KENTUCKY, and wins against UVA, WISC, MSU. Not exactly the stuff top seeds are made of....

[Lar77]

Like many, I was stunned in the first half. But the effort was there. I have never seen more missed open shots and each missed shot seemed to find its way to a State player (to their credit, they were so jacked up - I was very impressed by their intensity. With their next class, they will be very very good).
First 10 minutes of the second half was basically a draw - we were playing much better as a team, but Satet was still playing great. Got tired of the refs pretty quickly (more on that).
Last ten minutes, we played defense AS A TEAM. This is where we fall down I think. Are we lightening quick individually - for the most part no. But can anyone name a Duke team that was considered quick and athletic? The last ten minutes, no one got screened off where there wasn't a recovery. Help defense didn't overcommit. Effort and communication were there. We got to every 50-50 ball, whereas in the first half, state got them all.

Questions:
Does the ACC really monitor the refs? I was surprised by the inconsistency, the late calls, and the intrusion into the game (both ways, but I have to ask if anyone wondered about Kelly being called for blocking about 5 seconds after the play).
Why wasn't State called for a flagrant when the guy on the floor (I think it was Williams) wrapped his arms around Andre's ankles after Andre got a loose ball and tried pulling him down)?
What is the definition of fouling a shooter when you touch their hand after the shot is gone (another late call against Thornton)? This seems to be very inconsistently called and I get the sense that the ref waits to see whether the ball goes in.
Why wasn't Andre (or Daniel Ewing) T'd up when Leslie started to act like a 5 year old?

I thought State brought it. I thought we showed what we are made of and I'm proud of both.

Note to maintenance crew: if you find a stent that popped out, please give me a call.:)

[Rudy]

K's Cardiac Kids.

I had to subscribe for a day to a special channel to get it on t.v. in the D.C. area, but it was worth the $17.

[devil84]

Didn't care for the loud BS chants. Can't the crazies come up with a more creative way to say "we don't agree with the call"?

They used a number of them before they got to that one. They had already used the usual "I'm blind, I'm deaf, I want to be a ref," or chanting "No, no, no" while pointing on multiple occasions. There was one other that I didn't quite understand, it was a short "<something> blind ref." They did a few before they got to BS on a particularly egregious calls (from our Duke Blue perspective -- the State guy behind me was positively giddy on those two calls). I'm preferential to the post-avuncular-letter "We beg to differ" chant or singing "Three Blind Mice" to add to the arsenal (instead of BS, although there is a time and place for that).

Some other cheers:
- Singing Old McDonald during a free throw (although my Duke fan daughter who graduated from NCSU last year noted that this is not offensive to them as their pep band plays this)
- "Big High School" from the three student sections to emulate their "N C State" cheer (and given that 25% of my daughter's high school goes to NC State, she finds this particularly true)
- (points to Duke bench) "Culture," (points to State bench) "Agriculture"
- "aaaahhhhh SEE YA" three times in the last minute+ (nothing new, but fun nonetheless!)

Someone noted that Austin Rivers slapped the floor -- if I'm remembering correctly, this was on one of the last possessions in the game where good defense would preserve the 5 point lead. I thought it was a terrific display of leadership to request his teammates to focus on defense and the crowd to make as much noise as possible. It was used at the right time, IMHO.

The game was hard to watch for the first 30 minutes, made worse by a particularly obnoxious State fan behind us. I don't mind cheering FOR one's team, but cheering solely against the other team and invading the personal space of those beside you and in front of you (he really needed to stop accidentally bumping my mom's head) is over the top. EVERY foul against State was a travesty of justice; EVERY call against Duke was "about time already!" Tiresome. Fortunately, most of the other State fans in the area were far more well behaved.

But as far as the play on the floor, I felt that for most of the first half, State was making a ton of circus shots and shooting an insanely high percentage -- 57% from the floor at one time out, 83% (5-6!) from three at another. While Duke's defense could have been stronger, even State's contested shots were going in. Meanwhile, Duke was down below 22% from the floor at the start of the game and 0% from 3 for quite a while. Nothing was bouncing in and the shot selection wasn't THAT bad (yes, it could have been better, and yes, the defense could have been better). Towards the middle of the half, I felt that between the feeling that the officiating was just inconsistent/tight enough (on the same end of the court, not a discrepancy between teams; and it's a gut feel, not an actual fact), bounces not going Duke's way but definitely going State's way, and State really playing very well, the Duke players were just befuddled on how to make this game work. If I go for the rebound, is it a foul this time? If I shoot, is it another miss that goes to State? Every time Duke did something good to start a run, State would get even better. The half couldn't come soon enough so Coach could make adjustments. Coming back from the half, shooting for both teams returned to the mean -- once they battled through the foul-fest of the first few minutes that took both teams out of their rhythm. With more usual shooting percentages, coupled with some foul trouble, Duke was able to settle into their game and pull it out.

I think State came out well prepared for Duke and with an attitude to make a statement. They had everything to gain with a signature win and nothing to lose with a respectable loss. They had their special black uni's*, too. I think they did a great job of disrupting Duke's game. They just needed the game to be about 5 minutes shorter. Kudos to State. I hope they can play their remaining games at the same level they did in the first 30 minutes.


*Not a fan of those uni's, either. Not enough State red. Should have NC State across the front instead of the generic "State," particularly since the nearly all black is generic enough. At least we could read the names/numbers!

[BluDvlsN1]

This game more than any other in recent memory (even last week's comeback against kerlina) reminds me that...

There's no such thing as a bad win. And there's no such thing as a good loss.

Feel free to tear that to shreds...

No need to shred anything, when your right your right!!
Just gonna repost your perfect post from last week!!


"Saw that. I loved how they said kerlina beat duke in every statistical category except one... 3-pt shooting. Well, I guess they forgot about points being a relatively important stat! "

It's timeless!!

Okay Goodnight!!

[UrinalCake]

I thought Andre was more passionate and emitionally engaged (in a positive way) in this game than I've ever seen him play in any other game. Andre really stepped it in other areas beside shooting and it looked like he didn't let his offense negatively impact other areas of his game. I think K said in his press conference that he hopes Andre's play in the State game will show him that he can do other things beside shooting.

Agreed, and he even hit that mid-range jumper/floater that we've all been begging for!

[MCFinARL]

On a basketball note, I think one of the best things to come out of this game was the way Andre played. People have been down on his defense, but I thought he did a really good job last night. Also, he rebounded, came up with a couple steals, went to the floor several times for loose balls, and still managed to have our highest percentage from three-range, even though he only had 9 points.

Hopefully, he'll sustain that sort of effort going forward.

Can't give you pitchforks till I spread some around, so I'll post to say this is a very good point. It's especially important, given how often people do criticize Andre's defense or complain that he doesn't get involved enough, that we notice and comment when he is playing well, even when it doesn't result in 15-20 points (personally, I think he plays well fairly often, but last night was exceptional).

[MCFinARL]

5) We had no right winning that game. I love Duke and was happy for the win, but (nearly) felt equally as bad for State as the good that felt for the Devils.

Maybe just semantics, but I completely disagree. We scored more points; therefore, unless we cheated to score them or someone cheated on our behalf, or perhaps we intentionally injured players on the other team, none of which happened, we had a right to win the game.

Were we lucky to win the game, given how far in the hole we had gotten? You bet.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Maybe just semantics, but I completely disagree. We scored more points; therefore, unless we cheated to score them or someone cheated on our behalf, or perhaps we intentionally injured players on the other team, none of which happened, we had a right to win the game.

Were we lucky to win the game, given how far in the hole we had gotten? You bet.

I probably shouldn't have used "no right" as you correctly pointed out that we scored more points. But did you see the first 10 minutes? Can D-1 schools actually play that bad, not to mention Duke play that bad. In those 10 minutes, we settled for 3s, showed no heart, played poor defense, couldn't rebound, and forced Coach K to play Gbinije - who played a total of 1 minute in the last four games. State, on the other hand, executed extremely well but fouled a ton and - with a short bench - things can spiral from there, which they did. But the foul situation is part of the game.

[weezie]

K's Cardiac Kids.

That's what I said to some folks last night, the Heart Attack kids.
I am utterly exhausted today.
I'm sure this has already been remarked upon several times but it was actually painfully loud in Cameron last night. Loved it!

[throatybeard]

Maryland fans are definitely worse... I remember being at an ACC tourney - 2002 I believe - with my parents, both Duke alums from the mid '60s. After parking, while walking to the stadium, MD fans tailgating made some pretty vulgar comments - 'F*** Duke! We're gonna slash your tires! etc. Look at this guy, stupid Duke fan has to hang out with OLD people!' To which I replied 'Dude, they're my parents! If yours had done a decent job with you, you wouldn't have had to go to MD!'

Made it all the sweeter when they lost early and flooded the market with their tickets, allowing me to get center court and (watch Duke win) for $20.

Everybody I know (except the MD fans I know here in DC) thinks MD, by far, has the worst fan base. Then again, that's in DC where there are less UNC fans! :cool:

I was at that ACCT. The was a large gaggle of Maryland fans and to be honest, I haven't feared for my safety to that degree anywhere but Franklin Street in 1999 (where I shouldn't have been) and at LSU (where no one should go).

[killerleft]

I read most of the threads on the board, but I would generally recommend staying away from the in-game threads once the game starts (you can't ignore them before the game, otherwise you'd miss all the griping about why people 1600 miles from Durham can't watch the game!...grumble grumble ACC network grumble grumble...). Find yourself a couple Duke fans to watch the game with and just turn off the DBR until the game ends. It helps calm the maddening emotions.

I don't have time to do the in-game thread and watch the game, too. But I've always thought that the people involved need the release valve that such posting must enable. Dogs don't get kicked, spouses don't get barked at, TVs don't get broken. As such, I say "carry on". But still, dudes... some of that stuff would peel paint off the wall!

[g-money]

K's Cardiac Kids.

I had to subscribe for a day to a special channel to get it on t.v. in the D.C. area, but it was worth the $17.

Agree with the Cardiac Kid moniker. And I like it.

My two cents: It's not a bad thing to be known as a team that is impossible to eradicate. In fact, it can become a major psychological advantage if used correctly. Take, for example, the case of the 2011-2012 NY Giants. (Of course it almost led to them missing the playoffs as well, but who remembers that now? :))

Instead of harping on this team's deficits I think we should simply refer to them as "Dangerous".

[Lar77]

Agree with the Cardiac Kid moniker. And I like it.

My two cents: It's not a bad thing to be known as a team that is impossible to eradicate. In fact, it can become a major psychological advantage if used correctly. Take, for example, the case of the 2011-2012 NY Giants. (Of course it almost led to them missing the playoffs as well, but who remembers that now? :))

Instead of harping on this team's deficits I think we should simply refer to them as "Dangerous".


I don't. I heard Jim Boeheim on the radio this morning - he doesn't either.

[throatybeard]

Why I've always had a soft spot for them.

We've done the heavy lifting in hoops, and they've done the heavy lifting in football here recently, and while we're not under one supreme command, we both fight the good fight each in our own way.

I feel an alliance against a common enemy binds Duke and State together, if weakly. Of course, my CV says I am a MooDukie.

When I was a college kid, I joked that if we ever entered actual armed warfare with Carolina, we had an enormous advantage even given our much smaller numbers: a pseudo-Gothic fortress. I imagine something like Helm's Deep. Just before the Tar Heels attacked, we would withdraw our men from East, from the Hospital, even from Edens. (The WEL wasn't built yet). Everyone would hole up in the Chapel and Main West. We could shoot arrows out those narrow dorm windows on West. (I imagined this being medieval combat). As the Heels stormed up Chapel Drive, we could send messengers to Raleigh out the back side of Perkins, or through hospital South. We could form an alliance with State, and they would come marching to our aid like the Elves in The Two Towers. The fortress would hold until the reinforcements from Raleigh made it.

During the standoff between us and the police the night of 28 February 1998, over what we regarded as our scared and constitutional right to burn benches,* I was in a friend's fourth floor room in Spectrum, which I think is House G. I looked down at the paramilitary-dressed cops and it occurred to me that my vantage point was perfect for pouring boiling oil on an attacking force. Heck, as the Chapel Drive onslaught occurred, you could lob all sorts of stuff from atop the Chapel.


* - In retrospect, it amazes me how out of hand that got.

[Albert]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and I'm not the number cruncher some of the stalwarts here are . . .

We outscored them 37-12 over the last 11.5 minutes of the game.

That is scoring at the rate of 128 points over a 40-minute game.

[burnspbesq]

I haven't feared for my safety to that degree anywhere but Franklin Street in 1999 (where I shouldn't have been) and at LSU (where no one should go).

I take it you weren't outside the then-MCI Center after Maryland lost in the first session on Friday in 2005.

[Lar77]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and I'm not the number cruncher some of the stalwarts here are . . .

We outscored them 37-12 over the last 11.5 minutes of the game.

That is scoring at the rate of 128 points over a 40-minute game.


Sort of why you knew the game was going to be different in the 2nd half - State had 46 pts, which would be 92 for the game. We held them for 27 in the second half.

(Coach Jeff was pretty worn out, but I love listening to his post game)

[burnspbesq]

It's probably too late to put it in this season, but I wonder about whether this team could play the 1-2-2 matchup zone that has become so effective for the women. No Duke opponent this year has had success reversing the ball with 6-5 Alison Vernerey at the top of the zone. Imagine trying to reverse the ball with a Plumlee on top.

[superdave]

It's probably too late to put it in this season, but I wonder about whether this team could play the 1-2-2 matchup zone that has become so effective for the women. No Duke opponent this year has had success reversing the ball with 6-5 Alison Vernerey at the top of the zone. Imagine trying to reverse the ball with a Plumlee on top.

We've maybe played 75 defensive possessions of zone the past twenty years, so doubtful. I think we've got the depth to do a little more full court for short stretches. But I only think you'll see zone from here through April (yeah, I said April) once or twice for no more than 3-4 total possessions.

[BluDvlsN1]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and I'm not the number cruncher some of the stalwarts here are . . .

We outscored them 37-12 over the last 11.5 minutes of the game.

That is scoring at the rate of 128 points over a 40-minute game.

That would make them Loyola Marymountesque circa 1990 at 122+ pts per game!

Interesting observation!

[Billy Dat]

Another little tidbit from last night's game...after our bigs had endured enough thrown shots, given-up enough offensive rebounds, and generally had enough man-handling at the hands of the State front line, Mason started emphatically two handed pound dribbling as he made his post moves. It kind of got him going and I liked seeing him be stronger with the ball. Something tells me he might have been hearing about his weak play in some of the first half timeouts. If only, if only, we had unfiltered access to K in the huddle. I would love to hear some of the stuff he throws at these guys. I am sure it would make the in-game thread seem like Stuart Smalley-style praise.

[OldPhiKap]

During the standoff between us and the police the night of 28 February 1998, over what we regarded as our scared and constitutional right to burn benches,* I was in a friend's fourth floor room in Spectrum, which I think is House G. I looked down at the paramilitary-dressed cops and it occurred to me that my vantage point was perfect for pouring boiling oil on an attacking force. Heck, as the Chapel Drive onslaught occurred, you could lob all sorts of stuff from atop the Chapel.


* - In retrospect, it amazes me how out of hand that got.

What we need is a good moat.

[House G]

I was at that ACCT. The was a large gaggle of Maryland fans and to be honest, I haven't feared for my safety to that degree anywhere but Franklin Street in 1999 (where I shouldn't have been) and at LSU (where no one should go).

Can you elaborate on why no one should go to LSU, since my son goes there? ;) Maybe I need to get my money back.

[throatybeard]

Can you elaborate on why no one should go to LSU, since my son goes there? ;) Maybe I need to get my money back.

Going to Baton Rouge is great if you intend to pull for LSU. I wouldn't recommend opposing fans attend games there. I thought people were going to assault us. (We were wearing Mississippi State gear). And I was with my wife!


What we need is a good moat.

Now we're talking. Where do we put it?

[OldPhiKap]

Now we're talking. Where do we put it?

Flood the tunnels.

[Nepos]

Now we're talking. Where do we put it?


I believe our moat is already in place (see http://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/finaid.html).

[roywhite]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and I'm not the number cruncher some of the stalwarts here are . . .

We outscored them 37-12 over the last 11.5 minutes of the game.

That is scoring at the rate of 128 points over a 40-minute game.

Which also included good defense by Duke, an aspect that some national commentators (heard Collin Cowherd on this topic) miss.

[OldPhiKap]

Now we're talking. Where do we put it?

I believe our moat is already in place (see http://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/finaid.html).

As a parent of two, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's obscene.


(But very funny response)

[Highlander]

Maybe just a half-court trap but not full-court. I don't think we have enough overall team speed to make this effective.

Well, it's not like our half court defense is any more effective most of the time.

I like the trap, and wonder if Coach K is "saving" it for tourney games. Maybe give teams a little different look via a "March Surprise."

Probably just wishful thinking on my part.

[BluDvlsN1]

Around CIS of course

[throatybeard]

Around CIS of course

That pretty much defeats the strategy of using Main West as the fortress.

[OldPhiKap]

That pretty much defeats the strategy of using Main West as the fortress.

I heard that the newest renovation plan to Wally Wade involves taking up the track and putting in a moat.

Not sure why.

Funny, I remember when they put the track in as the next new thing.

[ChillinDuke]

The one thing I consistently don't understand is the frequent comparison of this year's team to past Duke teams. Is Miles the new Zoubs? Will we turn a corner like 2010? Our D is similar to the XXXX year team and they lost in the 2nd round. ...etc.

As K so often says about players, can't we just let this team run its own race?

That's the beauty to me! We don't need to be compared to another season. We have this season. This moment. IMO, we looked great last night. Not that we looked great in terms of technical basketball execution. But mentally, we looked great. We played within ourselves at all times. We made adjustments at good moments. Players came together. Great body language, high fives, huddles, smiles at end of game (notably, Seth and Dre after that last foul on State). Can't we celebrate that aspect of this team instead of dwelling on what this team doesn't have? Mental fortitude and persistence as a basketball team is not something to be taken lightly or overlooked.

We are 22-4 and playing well overall. We weren't going to go undefeated. We all knew that going into this year. Losses, missed shots, turnovers, and defensive blow by's are a fact of the game. They are going to happen. I don't demand 40 minutes of technically excellent basketball.

Obviously, everyone looks at their own personal Duke fan experience differently and focuses on different aspects. But I, for one, am becoming extremely attached to this team (as I often find myself doing every year around this time). They don't have to be last year's team, or 2010, or 2009, or any other Duke team for me. They just have to keep being them.

I would not bet against this team under any circumstance. They most certainly can win any game they are in and challenge in the tourney. You are allowed to debate this team to your heart's content (this is a public forum after all), but I absolutely am on the glass half full side of this team.

Really like what I've seen the last few games.

If we are down 20 to BC at halftime, my beliefs will remain the same.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

Really like what I've seen the last few games.

If we are down 20 to BC at halftime, my beliefs will remain the same.

- Chillin

I really like what Austin said on Duke Blue Planet after the game -- it was immature to get into that position, and it was mature to get out of it.

We need to eliminate the former.

I will love this team regardless, but it's time to grow up. I tried to link the "lollygaggers" clip from Bull Durham a few times but it has some things that some may find objectionable. But I think K needs to take an armful of bats and throw them in the shower.

"It's an easy game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball . . . ."

[MCFinARL]

I really like what Austin said on Duke Blue Planet after the game -- it was immature to get into that position, and it was mature to get out of it.

We need to eliminate the former.

I will love this team regardless, but it's time to grow up. I tried to link the "lollygaggers" clip from Bull Durham a few times but it has some things that some may find objectionable. But I think K needs to take an armful of bats and throw them in the shower.

"It's an easy game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball . . . ."

I liked that too. Something else I liked was what Seth said about how the team always thought they would win, throughout the entire game. For a team with as many ups and downs as this one, that kind of attitude is crucial--and it gives me a good feeling about the rest of the season (although I may be veering into Ozzie optimism territory here).

[devildeac]

The one thing I consistently don't understand is the frequent comparison of this year's team to past Duke teams. Is Miles the new Zoubs? Will we turn a corner like 2010? Our D is similar to the XXXX year team and they lost in the 2nd round. ...etc.

As K so often says about players, can't we just let this team run its own race?

That's the beauty to me! We don't need to be compared to another season. We have this season. This moment. IMO, we looked great last night. Not that we looked great in terms of technical basketball execution. But mentally, we looked great. We played within ourselves at all times. We made adjustments at good moments. Players came together. Great body language, high fives, huddles, smiles at end of game (notably, Seth and Dre after that last foul on State). Can't we celebrate that aspect of this team instead of dwelling on what this team doesn't have? Mental fortitude and persistence as a basketball team is not something to be taken lightly or overlooked.

We are 22-4 and playing well overall. We weren't going to go undefeated. We all knew that going into this year. Losses, missed shots, turnovers, and defensive blow by's are a fact of the game. They are going to happen. I don't demand 40 minutes of technically excellent basketball.

Obviously, everyone looks at their own personal Duke fan experience differently and focuses on different aspects. But I, for one, am becoming extremely attached to this team (as I often find myself doing every year around this time). They don't have to be last year's team, or 2010, or 2009, or any other Duke team for me. They just have to keep being them.

I would not bet against this team under any circumstance. They most certainly can win any game they are in and challenge in the tourney. You are allowed to debate this team to your heart's content (this is a public forum after all), but I absolutely am on the glass half full side of this team.

Really like what I've seen the last few games.

If we are down 20 to BC at halftime, my beliefs will remain the same.

- Chillin

If we are down 20 to BC at halftime, I am gonna need one of these:

2410

2411

[davekay1971]

I don't see any hurleys or laettners on this team......

Not sure what the point of this post is...or many similar posts that pop up on these threads. Hurley, in his freshman year, was a frequently infuriating point guard. He was brilliant but prone to bad decisions and turnovers. He couldn't shoot...at all. He looked pouty when things went badly. Laettner was very, very good by his sophomore year. But was he THAT much better of a 5 than, say, Mason is now? He had a better shot from mid range, but hadn't really developed that devastating 3 that he dropped more frequently his junior and senior years. He was probably about as good of a post defender. He was certainly not as good of a rebounder. He was maybe better passing out of the post, but I honestly don't remember that as being a particular strength of his. And, by this point of his sophomore year, he hadn't dropped the elite eight buzzer beater on UConn, sunk the free throws that sunk UNLV, had the Perfect Game or hit The Shot. His defining moments, to that point, were playing Alonzo Mourning well in the NCAAT his freshman year, and missing those two free throws in MSG...the last game on the line shots free throws he ever missed at Duke.

If your post means you don't see any 1991-93 Hurleys or any 1991-1992 Laettners on this team, you're right. But, how good is Quinn Cook, or Austin Rivers or Mason Plumlee (should they return), be next year? You don't know, neither do I. Those guys, like Hurley, Laettner, Nolan Smith, etc, could go from players to legends while they are at Duke.

Taking away the nostalgia glasses, and looking at the whole team, this team has every bit the talent that the 1990 team had. The 1990 team, as a whole, was better on defense. This team is probably better on offense. That team had better on-court leadership. This team has a coach that has won 4 more national championships and hundreds more games...etc.

Or, to put it differently...you don't see a Hurley or Laettner on this team? Well, back then we didn't see a Banks or Gminski on that team. Nor did I see a jersey-in-the-rafters Laettner or Hurley on that team. And there sure as heck wasn't an Austin Rivers on that team either.

[weezie]

Not sure what the point of this post is...or many similar posts that pop up on these threads. Hurley, in his freshman year, was a frequently infuriating point guard....

So true...we had a family phrase, "the Hurley pass" that sometimes ended up in the fifth row.
God love him and all freshmen/women.
It is remarkable that these "kids" we dissect are, in actuality, quite accomplished.
Speaking as the former captain of the junior high school field hockey team, that is....lol

[weezie]

If we are down 20 to BC at halftime, I am gonna need one of these:

2410

2411

Devildeac-ster, what, no needle full of adrenaline at chairside?

[devildeac]

Devildeac-ster, what, no needle full of adrenaline at chairside?


Doesn't work for this:

2412

or this:

2413

[OldPhiKap]

The "Ventricular Tachyicardia Kids" doesn't have the same ring as "The Cardiac Kids" does it?



The watchword for this group should be -- "CLEAR!!!!!"

[weezie]

Doesn't work for this:

2412

or this:

2413

Somebody is just too smart. :D:D:D

[weezie]

The "Ventricular Tachyicardia Kids" doesn't have the same ring as "The Cardiac Kids" does it?



The watchword for this group should be -- "CLEAR!!!!!"

Actually, for a bunch of Duke kids, that might have just the right ring!

Ventricular Tachycardia Young People! I LIKE it!

[jimsumner]

Not sure what the point of this post is...or many similar posts that pop up on these threads. Hurley, in his freshman year, was a frequently infuriating point guard. He was brilliant but prone to bad decisions and turnovers. He couldn't shoot...at all. He looked pouty when things went badly. Laettner was very, very good by his sophomore year. But was he THAT much better of a 5 than, say, Mason is now? He had a better shot from mid range, but hadn't really developed that devastating 3 that he dropped more frequently his junior and senior years. He was probably about as good of a post defender. He was certainly not as good of a rebounder. He was maybe better passing out of the post, but I honestly don't remember that as being a particular strength of his. And, by this point of his sophomore year, he hadn't dropped the elite eight buzzer beater on UConn, sunk the free throws that sunk UNLV, had the Perfect Game or hit The Shot. His defining moments, to that point, were playing Alonzo Mourning well in the NCAAT his freshman year, and missing those two free throws in MSG...the last game on the line shots free throws he ever missed at Duke.

If your post means you don't see any 1991-93 Hurleys or any 1991-1992 Laettners on this team, you're right. But, how good is Quinn Cook, or Austin Rivers or Mason Plumlee (should they return), be next year? You don't know, neither do I. Those guys, like Hurley, Laettner, Nolan Smith, etc, could go from players to legends while they are at Duke.

Taking away the nostalgia glasses, and looking at the whole team, this team has every bit the talent that the 1990 team had. The 1990 team, as a whole, was better on defense. This team is probably better on offense. That team had better on-court leadership. This team has a coach that has won 4 more national championships and hundreds more games...etc.

Or, to put it differently...you don't see a Hurley or Laettner on this team? Well, back then we didn't see a Banks or Gminski on that team. Nor did I see a jersey-in-the-rafters Laettner or Hurley on that team. And there sure as heck wasn't an Austin Rivers on that team either.

For reference sake, the 1990 Duke team did not have a single first-team All-ACC player. Laettner and Phil Henderson made second-team All-ACC, Alaa Abdelnaby third-team All-ACC. Hurley established an ACC record for turnovers in a season. No one on this team got even a cursory nod for All-America.

And there were some boo-hiss-awful outings. Henderson, Abdelnaby and Robert Brickey lost on Senior to a mediocre Carolina team. Carolina won in Chapel Hill by 19. Duke's loss to Georgia Tech in the ACC Tournament was so bad Henderson called his teammates "cry babies."

Yet, there were some memorable victories. Duke swept GT in the regular season, had a great comeback win over Arizona and put it together in the NCAAs, advancing to the title game.

Talent, inconsistency, a mix of youth and experience, a team struggling to find itself but finally doing so.

Not saying this team will come anywhere near duplicating this. But it does show that not all successful Duke teams dominated every second of every game. Sometimes, it really is a journey.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Coach K has spoken so many times about the journey each player makes. I believe each team has its own journey.... and that means a different journey each year.

While this season has been unpredictable and seemingly ever changing, it's a great opportunity to observe individuals developing and a sense of team developing. Can't beat it for entertainment value! The wins that develop right at the end are nerve wracking, but I love 'em.... especially when it's Duke winning!:cool:

[devildeac]

The "Ventricular Tachyicardia Kids" doesn't have the same ring as "The Cardiac Kids" does it?



The watchword for this group should be -- "CLEAR!!!!!"

Shocking, simply shocking.

Maybe we could condense/shorten it to the V-Tach Pack...:rolleyes:

[davekay1971]

Doesn't work for this:

2412

or this:

2413

I tip my hat to you, sir.

Difference between DBR and IC: if any working cardiologists post on IC, you sure can't tell! Devildeac, you can run my code any day.

Or, as they say on IC...+1

[davekay1971]

Shocking, simply shocking.

Maybe we could condense/shorten it to the V-Tach Pack...:rolleyes:

Torsades de Duke?

[devildeac]

Torsades de Duke?

That's a real QT there, davekay;).

Back on topic, sort of, this team has very edumacational to me with stress and anger management. Haven't succeeded yet but I am learning quite a bit.

[-jk]

I don't have time to do the in-game thread and watch the game, too. But I've always thought that the people involved need the release valve that such posting must enable. Dogs don't get kicked, spouses don't get barked at, TVs don't get broken. As such, I say "carry on". But still, dudes... some of that stuff would peel paint off the wall!

No. I see your point, but the board is forever. If you need a real time outlet, try snrubchat. We're not a place to vent.

-jk

[Furniture]

I know that Duke have been slow starters in many games but in this one I think that losing Curry at the beginning really upset the team.
It also struck me at the same time that he is REALLY important for this team!

[throatybeard]

I heard that the newest renovation plan to Wally Wade involves taking up the track and putting in a moat.

Not sure why.

Funny, I remember when they put the track in as the next new thing.

Excellent.

We're gonna need a taller QB than Thad Lewis to see over that moat.

[throatybeard]

No. I see your point, but the board is forever. If you need a real time outlet, try snrubchat. We're not a place to vent.

-jk

This.

There's traditionally been a little bit more leeway given in the game threads, but if you want to scream and cry about how things are going during the game, come over to the chat. Breen set it up in a pretty libertarian fashion. It's just me and Loopy moderating it, and that's when we remember to do so, which ain't the Colorado State game. And we're basically there to make sure that UVA and UNC flamers are blocked. Language mostly flies free. I've been known to use an Anglo-Saxon term or two myself. Unless you're unbelievably, um, not good, you can vent your Screaming Howler Panic Monkey spleen in snrubchat in real time. It doesn't need to occur permanently on the board.

This is not to say anything at all goes in the chatroom, but me and Loopy have pretty long ropes, and we don't toss people just for being frustrated. We only toss them for being trolls. There's no reason to act stupid on the DBR.

[chaosmage]

This.

There's traditionally been a little bit more leeway given in the game threads, but if you want to scream and cry about how things are going during the game, come over to the chat. Breen set it up in a pretty libertarian fashion. It's just me and Loopy moderating it, and that's when we remember to do so, which ain't the Colorado State game. And we're basically there to make sure that UVA and UNC flamers are blocked. Language mostly flies free. I've been known to use an Anglo-Saxon term or two myself. Unless you're unbelievably, um, not good, you can vent your Screaming Howler Panic Monkey spleen in snrubchat in real time. It doesn't need to occur permanently on the board.

This is not to say anything at all goes in the chatroom, but me and Loopy have pretty long ropes, and we don't toss people just for being frustrated. We only toss them for being trolls. There's no reason to act stupid on the DBR.

I wanna say thanks, as a longtime lurker, for the snrubchat. I know that I love being able to use it during the games, for it leads to much less screaming during the games. Only issue I have is, through no fault of snrubchat, when the Xbox buffered the game last night and everyone else was a full minute+ ahead.

snrub = awesome. And yes, they are rather forgiving.. I know I have been prone to more than one outburst.

[OldPhiKap]

Actually, for a bunch of Duke kids, that might have just the right ring!

Ventricular Tachycardia Young People! I LIKE it!

"The Imps of Infarction"


Excellent.

We're gonna need a taller QB than Thad Lewis to see over that moat.

How many cinder blocks tall should a good draw-gate be?



Oh, and on point -- Seth spoke in the post-game about coming out flat with less energy. Not sure why this keeps happening, especially at home. He (and Austin) were quick to point out that the crowd NEVER gave up on them, even down 20. Sixth Man, you get the game ball.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

No. I see your point, but the board is forever. If you need a real time outlet, try snrubchat. We're not a place to vent.

-jk

I obviously have no idea if any of the players read the boards. Honestly, hopefully not. But, wow, if they did... I mean, we all get upset. We hate seeing misses. We hate seeing poor decisions. We hate seeing a lack of hustle when it happens. But geez, they are kids playing college basketball - not NBA players doing this for a living. I just hate to see the personal attacks on individual players. That's over the line - and frankly should be treated as such.

[Zafort]

This may have been mentioned by someone else, but I just wanted to point out another example of Seth's astuteness. I think Duke was up by 3 when he went up after a NCS miss and deflected the ball away from a State player who probably had an easy putback, otherwise. That's basketball IQ of the highest order.